Hello, Subtalk will be returning tonight. Sorry I was off by a day. My flight home from Madrid on Saturday was cancelled.
Thanks for your patience.
Any posts you saw purporting to be from me on any other web board services were forgeries.
-Dave
Fortunately they were forgeries - the one I saw looked quite convincing. I'm glad to see you and Subtalk (the passwords probably go a long way to prevent forgeries here) are back.
-Robert King
Welcome back! Glad to see the page up again!
Wow ... that post sure fooled ME too ... welcome HOME, guy! Glad to see the old place lit back up again!
Welcome home!
Amen to that!!!!
The bogus post gave me pause because it seemed like your "understated" style of writing. But it didn't make a lot of sense that you would post on another forum before mentioning it here.
Anyway, it's good to have you back safe and sound. Maybe that sounds like a worried mother, but in these times...
No news was good news in this case -- nothing big happening in Europe in late October, so I assumed everything was OK, and the half-day delay in the scheduled restart was due to jet lag, or some other minor problem.
Good to have you back, Dave.
Great to see you back. I hope you had a good time and I can't wait to see all the pictures I know you took.
Dear David,
Welcome home! I was afraid it would feel so good to stop, you
wouldn't want to host again when you returned!
welcome back, hope you had a nice trip
Sea Beach Fred checking in. Boy did I miss Subtalk. Fortunately, I came across another site that kept me in the groove for two weeks. Now I have two places to go. Welcome back Dave. Hope you had a great vacation.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I'm back on "SubTalk" once again. I also want to make you aware that the "N" & "R" trains are running once again.
#3 West End Jeff
What other site, and Fred really had wqithdrawls these past 2 weeks, his wife Linda told me he was running out of Prozac
We thought of Fred while at Coney Island. We checked out the Cyclones' ballpark, saw the Cyclone coaster, and ate at Nathan's. We also saw the old Parachute Jump, or what's left of it, up close.
Welcome home!
Welcome back hope you had a nice trip.
Welcome back, Dave.
Nice to have you back, Dave. And while I'm at it, I want to say hello to every one of my Subtalk penpals. Hello to all!
Glad to have you back, safe & sound, even if the board missed the 38th Anniversary of the end of Baltimore's streetcar service. (11/3/1963)
Welcome back :-D ... but I don't get why someone would want to write something in your name... then again, I didn't see the nature of the post...
Welcome home. It's good to have you and SubTalk back. I hope you had a good trip!
Now, when are you going to put the Washington, DC, Metro track map back up?
- Lyle Goldman
Why do you think I'm going to put the map back up? I said I'd put it back up if I had not received the request in writing, which I did, before I left.
Oh, you did get it in writing. I didn't know that. Still, I don't think they can do anything if you put it back up: the U.S. Constitution gives us all freedom of speech. What the heck: put it back up. We'll all defend and support you.
By the way, what was the text of the letter, and how do you know it's official? Who was this Fascist bastard who wrote this, anyway?
- Lyle Goldman
"Who was this Fascist bastard who wrote this, anyway?"
Just another one of the many who are doing their best to safeguard our lives.
And just how is trying to ban a harmless thing as a little map supposed to safeguard our lives? Didn't we have this discussion before Dave left? Most of you seemed to agree with my position.
- Lyle Goldman
"And just how is trying to ban a harmless thing as a little map supposed to safeguard our lives? Didn't we have this discussion before Dave left?"
Yes we did.
"Most of you seemed to agree with my position."
I guess you need to read the threads again.
while I am clear that one, M Adler retains copyright, and two, D Pirrmann is our host and sets house rules (and in passing thanks yet again for doing so, and welcome back), I also believe that the request to remove was USELESS and an insult to our civil liberties with no redeeming defensive merit. I defer to noone in my anger at the events of 11 Sept, and I salute all of the selfless public servants who gave the ultimate sacrifice for those of us still here. see ya on the subway.
It appears that many people, while paying lip service to those whose job it is to safeguard our lives, complain when security measures touch themselves.
I just found out that I may not be able to carry a cigar cutter on an airplane anymore. Instead of complaining about my loss of total freedom, I'll do my part by not making the job harder for someone who is just trying to safeguard my life.
As to the specifics of whether or not a publicized track map would be of use to terrorists, both sides of the debate were already discussed here.
OK, I've said this before and I'm going to get flamed to a crisp for it, but . . .
. . . get over it!
Metro requested that the map be removed in light of security reasons; said map was removed at webmaster's discretion. Done deal. Why do people continue to clog up this board with discussion of it? It's not like this was the Rosetta stone . . . just a subway map with nothing on it that you couldn't get in the 'official' system map save the location of a couple of switches.
Nothing personal, and I'm not addressing anyone in particular, but it's over! It's a stupid thing to discuss! Let's move on and talk transit!
C
You're just pissed probably because you didn't download it while it was up. That is the main reason I don't mind.
Actually, I have downloaded it from Jersey Mike's site shortly after he put it there (I'm not sure if it's still there; the guy who made the track map insisted that he take it down.). That's not the point. The point is freedom of speech. Also, the track map just belongs on this site. There are track maps for just about all other subway system covered on this site, so why not Washington? This is ridiculous!
- Lyle Goldman
Lyle, I think a lot of us agree with you... but that's not the point. This is a privately-run website and the webmaster is free to respond as he chooses to such requests. In this case, he has chosen to do so by removing the map. The map's copyright holder has also specifically denied permission for it to be published elsewhere (presumably, Dave still has permission to publish it here again at such time as it might be less politically incorrect to do so). So, whether or not we like it, that's the way it is, and no amount of squawking on our part is going to change it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, thanks for keeping the real issue in focus. This is not really a first ammendment issue as it is a copyright issue. I think Dave's actions were clearly his own attempt to balance first ammendment concerns with the security concerns of the Washington System. Everything else is just prostituting the first ammendment to to try to circumvent copyright laws. Again, thanks for keeping the discussion on point.
Heya! How was the trip?
-5200 running on the W
I knew this many Sundays ago. Remember that post about "R68A, #5800"?
That was it. It was a lead car to Astoria last time I rode it.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Just because a particular car happens to be sighted on the W one day doesn't mean it always runs on the W. All R-68A's, IINM, are based out of Coney Island, so they could theoretically show up on the N, circle-Q, diamond-Q, or W. In fact, the W has an almost exclusively R-68A fleet, so it's most likely to show up there. The N has some R-68A's mixed in with its R-32's, R-40's, and R-68's. On the circle-Q an occasional R-68A appears. An R-68A on the diamond-Q is a rare occurrence but it's not unheard of.
Then "R68A - 5200"'s text of "-5200 running on the W" would expire soon.
Railfan Pete.
I saw a few R-68 consists on the diamond Q two weeks ago, but each time I was waiting for a diamond, a slant R-40 consist pulled in. Ya gotta love those frisky slants. One of 'em hit 44 on the downhill run to Newkirk Ave.
I've seen 4car set of R68 followed by 4car set of R68A, isn't that just wonderful? I think right now, there's 1 trainset of R68As on the N.
4284 on N. :-D
... when do cars get looped? I saw 4284 as the head car NB and some time ago, 4285 switched directions/positions with 4284. Now, 4284 (slanted side) is back to the head direction NB.
Welcome Back David,
Thank you for providing links to alternate Transit Boards, kept me from getting bored. Its god to be back, nothing can replace the atmosphere of subtalk, like a play, every subtalker has his/her own characteristic/personality to contribute to this transit and sometimes not discussion
Good to have Subtalk back!
Hope you enjoyed your trip.
:-) Andrew
Welcome back. It's good to be home. (Both literally and back at Subtalk).
--Mark
Good to see Subtalk is back on line!
Welcome back and regards to all.
Ed
Welcome back, Dave! How were Portugal and Spain? They do have some interesting trains over there, like the Talgo. It must have been nice over there.
The Photo Contest is still going to happen. I'll have it open this week. Look for more info posted here soon.
-Dave
If it's Tuesday it must be Torremolinos, Spain. It's actually Wednesday night and I've been in Spain for two weeks with just a few days to go. To reopen Subtalk I've written this travelogue in advance so that I can post it as soon as I arrive home. I'll try to post pictures quickly.
Barcelona, Thursday, October 18 - Sunday, October 21
I started out by flying to Barcelona, Spain, best known in the U.S. I suppose as the host of the 1992 Olympics. The Olympics still have visible results here as a number of the metro lines were built or extended as a result of hosting the games. Barcelona has several lines of Metro subway, commuter rail, three funiculars, a couple of "Skyride" style cable cars, and a historic tram line.
On Friday, October 19, I was joined by one of our friend and British correspondant Simon Billis for a day of exploring rail transit in Barcelona. We covered two of the three funiculars and a bit of Metro riding. Thanks to Simon for keeping me company halfway around the world!
The ride from the airport to the city center is via a commuter rail line that is sort of half suburban half metro operation. Fare collection is automatic via turnstiles and encoded tickets. The trains are very similar to those on the Paris RER system and in fact the Barcelona commuter system is operated very much like the RER with a tunnel under the downtown area connecting commuter lines from the eastern and western suburbs. The trains are operated from overhead catenary wire and feature piped in "Muzak" inside the cars. Transfer to the Metro can be made at several stations, mainly at stations "Sants" and at Placa de Catalunya. The main long distance rail station to western Spain is at Sants. Another main station serves trains to the French border.
The Barcelona Metro is really a conglomeration of two operating companies, the "Ferrocarril Metropolita de Barcelona" (Metro) which operates metro lines 1 through 5, and "FGC", Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya, which operates two city-only lines, U6 and U7, and several suburban lines all from a terminal station at Placa de Catalunya.
The "Metro" lines 1-5 were built beginning in the 1920s and several lines are still being extended today. The metro lines are right hand running, with various ages of rolling stock none of which have railfan windows. Robert Schwandl, webmaster of Metro Planet, wrote a book "Metros of Spain" so I won't try to be too specific about the rolling stock. I think it was all the same size but some lines operated off uncovered, over-running third rail and other lines used an overhead third rail and pantograph. However, there are two different track gauges in the Metro ("international" standard and a wider Spanish gauge) so the cars are not interchangable. All of the Metro lines 1-5 are in tunnels except one station on line 1, Mercat Nou. The stations are all mostly modern concrete looking and uninteresting; nearly all are side platforms. The station platforms have vending machines, signage showing time till next train, and flat panel computer screens with animated advertising and video. There's also piped in Muzak on the platforms featuring American songs Muzakified.
The FGC suburban station at Placa de Catalunya is quite nice, with 7 or 8 tracks fed by a two track tunnel; the trains turn within minutes serving many northern destinations. There is a small cafe at the head end of the tracks where you can watch the trains arrive and depart. The FGC lines are a cross between a true metro service and a commuter service. There are turnstiles with mag stripe ticketing (same tickets as the Metro lines if you remain within Zone 1). The coaches are more like those on the LIRR-- longer cars than true metro with side doors, but "commuter" seating. Some of the services, U6 and U7 are somewhat short serving destinations wholly within Zone 1, some services longer to several northern destinations.
At the north end of the FGC line U7, at Avinguda (Avenue) Tibidabo, is the southern terminal of a "heritage" trolley line known as Tramvia Blau, the "Blue Tram", the only tramway in Barcelona at this time. (However, Barcelona has many wide avenues that would do quite well with modern LRV light rail and in fact a test track was constructed along Avinguda Diagonal a few years ago for this purpose.) At the terminal there is a single track curbside on the northbound lane of a street. Just north of the terminal it becomes two tracks and runs in the middle (traffic) lane of the road. After crossing a bridge over a motorway, the Tramvia Blau heads up the side of the Tibidabo mountain, still street running, up a steep twisty road. Just before heading up the mountain, a small car barn is down a spur track on a side street.
At the top of the tram line is the base station of a funicular, also named for the Tibidabo mountain. This is the longest and steepest of Barcelona's three funiculars. It is also running somewhat older cabins than the other two, with manually operated doors and brakes. The cabins look like Volkswagen Microbuses and are painted by local art students (which at first looks like graffiti but looks right at home on vehicles that resemble Microbuses). At the top of the Tibidabo funicular is a "fun fair" (a small amusement park) and a large cathedral overlooking the city of Barcelona. This funicular only runs half-hourly during the off peak season but is only a five minute ride.
Another funicular is reached by a short ride on one of the FGC suburban lines to station "Peu de Funicular" and the funicular is known as the Vallvidrera funicular. This funicular also climbs the Tibidabo mountain but is mostly used as a "commuter" funicular for local residents. The FGC train from Placa de Catalunya first emerges from the tunnel and climbs a pretty steep grade up the foothills of Tibidabo. The station of Peu de Funicular is at the mouth of a tunnel through the mountain. The funicular station is up two flights of stairs from the railway platform making it an easy transfer. The tickets to and from Placa de Catalunya allow free transfer to the funicular. The Vallvidrera funicular has recently been upgraded, both the cabins and the operation. The operation is fully automatic, much like an elevator. Unusually, there is a station midway up the mountain just upwards of the midway passing point. To get your cabin to call at this station there is a button inside the cabin like an elevator button. At the station itself there is a call button for "up" or "down" and the proper cabin will stop as it passes by. The platform edges are protected by edge doors which open simultaneously with those of the cabin.
A third funicular climbes Montjuic, a mountain overlooking Barcelona harbor right at the edge of the Mediterranean Sea. Its lower station is inside a long tunnel (which is not very steep for a funicular), and offers transfer to the Metro lines 2 and 3 at Paral.lel station. This funicular's cabins are very large, almost as large as a transit bus, and there are two cabins coupled together. The grades are not that steep until the very top. This funicular is primarily used to reach former Olympics sites, the Fundacion Joan Miro museum, and a military museum located in a fort at the peak.
Barcelona has two different Disney World style "Sky Rides" (same exact technology). One starts at top of the Montjuic funicular and carries people up to very top of Montjuic mountain to the fortress. The other one is at bottom of Montjuic and carries riders over part of Barcelona's harbor.
The train from Barcelona to Madrid is operated with "Talgo" equipment presumably with tilt ability but the line is not high speed (7.5 hours to cover the approx. 650 km between cities). The line is mostly single track with passing tracks at stations. The line is operated with electric locomotives the whole way, even though electricity is apparently very expensive in Spain. A high speed line (TGV style, called in Spain "AVE") is being built in many places parallel to the existing track to cut the journey time to around 4.5-5 hours. (A similar AVE line runs between Madrid and Seville which makes the approx. 200 mile trip in two hours.)
More to come....
Great report, Dave... brought back a lot of memories. Next time I get home to NC I'll dig out my slides of Barcelona in '72-'73 and see if I have any rail pics worth scanning, just to offer a contrast to what I expect you'll be posting soon. Unfortunately, I wasn't nearly as focused (in more ways than one!) on transit at that time, but I think I have a couple of shots at Vallvidrera of the Ferrocarriles de Cataluņa (Catalan wasn't allowed to be used officially back then so it was all in Castellano) and possibly one of the funicular at Tibidabo as it appeared at that time. Let's hope the E-4 Ektachrome hasn't faded too badly... they've been in dark storage for over 20 years though so it shouldn't be too bad.
Oh, and WELCOME HOME!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks like I missed the best funicular - never mind I shall have to go back:)
Simon
Swindon UK
The first set of pictures, covering Barcelona, have been uploaded here
Enjoy!
Dave
Great pictures,love the blue tram. Pity I missed it.
Simon
Swindon UK
Nice pics, Dave! Although none of the equipment looks familiar (with the possible exception of the older Tibidabo funicular - I think those are the cars that were there when I lived in Barcelona in '72-'73), the stations (especially the FGC station at Plaza Catalunya) bring back a lot of memories. Makes me want to go back someday soon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Madrid, Sunday, October 21 - Tuesday, October 23, also
Friday, November 2 and Saturday, November 3
Madrid's rail transit consists of the Metro, 11 lines, mostly underground; three main line terminal stations; and a RER-like commuter rail system running through a downtown tunnel connecting north and south suburbs.
The Metro has trains of two sizes, wide and narrow. The wide trains are approx. the same size as New York IND subway 60 foot cars. The narrow cars are REALLY narrow-- smaller than New York IRT cars. The older lines are the narrow ones but unfortunately some of those are the most used lines. Line 6, a newer ring line, is a deep bore tunnel way, way below all of the others. For example at the transfer station at Cuatro Caminos between line 6 and line 1 requires *four* escalators the length of those at 53rd/Lex in New York or those at the PATH World Trade Center station. There is some surface running on lines 5, 9, and 10. Metro tickets are extremely inexpensive-- 80 pesetas each if bought in multiples of 10 (that's approximately 50 cents each!) The Madrid metro is left hand running like in London, and again, no railfan windows. The lines are all operated via overhead catenary wire, not third rail.
Madrid has no tram or light rail lines that I am aware of.
More to come...
Interesting report. Looking forward to more on Madrid as I was there for a week, working night shift and railfaning (half asleep) during the day.
Phil Hom
Which System in Spain has the best railfanning?
None really. Almost entirely underground and no railfan windows...
Madrid has maybe 10 surface level stations, Barcelona just one.
Lisbon, Friday, October 26
The Lisbon Metro is a small system (four lines with 40 stations). Tickets cost 90 Portuguese escudos each in packs of 10 (even cheaper than Madrid at 40 cents each if my math is right). The trains are "wide", left hand running. Some of the trains have the rubber pass-thru joints between the cars. All of the lines (confusingly identified by colors-- red, blue, green, yellow; symbols, and line numbers) are all underground, except the Green/Yellow line's current northern terminal at Campo Grande. The elevated station is mostly to provide easier access to the yards which are at this location. The underground stations are pretty much uninteresting- all side platforms mostly with no walls between the tracks; very plainly decorated, not brightly lit, and many long passages to various entry stairways on the surface made them slightly threatening at late hours. There is also a short surface running stretch on the newest (Red) line but no above ground stations.
There is construction going on to extend ALL the lines at least 15 additional stations. The red line is the newest built for the 1998 Expo. This line has some surface running north of Olaias station and very beautiful stations; Olaias station is probably the most beautiful metro station I've ever seen.
Lisbon also has five tram lines serving the hilly neighborhoods of Alfama, Barrio Alto, etc. surrounding and crossing the city center (Baixa). Four of the lines are operated fairly infrequently with old Brill single truck trams built 1936-40. The tram lines are narrow 900mm gauge. One of the lines, the #15, which does not go up into the hills but instead runs alongside the riverfront is operated with modern low floor LRV style trams built by Siemens, which are single ended with doors only on the right side.
A tourist tram is operated from Baixa district starting at Praca do Comercio along portions of all of the lines along with a guide narrating the sights. This ride takes about two hours, non stop, depending on the amount of cars and other obstacles parked on the tracks! The ride costs 3,000 esc., approximately $15, but for the budget minded the best of the tram rides would be the #28 which traverses most of the best portions of the lines.
A tramway museum is operated by the transit company, Carris, in the shadow of the Ponte de 25 Abril bridge (a suspension bridge modeled after the Golden Gate Bridge, with the addition of a lower deck for a rail line). The collection includes many preserved Lisbon trams-- however, the ones operating are just as old as those in the museum collection!
Lisbon has three operating cable hauled funiculars ("elevadors"). First off and easiest to find from the main tourist district is the Gloria funicular, running from Praca do Restoradores up to the Barrio Alto. The right of way is an active street with car traffic (although mostly for access to parking areas).
Another funicular, the Bica, runs from the Rua de Sao Paolo at the bottom up to the Rua Loreto. The right of way is also a street, but just for pedestrians. The Bica's bottom terminal is inside a building and the top terminal is down a few steps preventing actual car access to the street. The third funicular is the Lavra, running up a hill west of Praca do Restoradores also along a pedestrian street.
And that's the end of the transit content of my visit to Spain, Portugal, and Morocco...
-Dave
Sorry about the topic change, but I had to ask: What are the feelings towards a visiting American?
Basically: they want our tourist dollars. :) I was in a tour group and didn't really interact with any natives on a one on one basis... But I think the core of your question is this, Morocco is an Islamic country but very relaxed. Many people on the street (i.e., women) were casually (Americanly) dressed and our guide made a point of mentioning it, maybe to emphasize that Islam is not the same as anti-American.
-Dave
Nice report on Lisbon, Dave. As Dave knows, I just spent an extended weekend in Lisbon (got there after Dave had left) and got a chance to experience the public transit there. Just thought I'd add a few thoughts to Dave's report.
A municipal organization of some sort runs the metro, while a private company (Carris) runs the buses, trams and funiculars. Most tickets aren't interchangeable between the two systems, although 4 and 7 day tourist passes for non-residents are honored on both. I read that attempts are to be made in the future to better integrate the fare systems of each.
I found some of the newer underground stations quite artistic, although the graffiti ruined the effect a little. There was some sort of art program around when some of the stations were built. Also, I found the newer subway cars with articulated joints (built in 3-car sets) predominent on three of the four lines; saw the older cars (in 2-car sets) only on the green line. On weekends, trains ran in 2 or 3 car trains (rather than 4 or 6 car trains during the week), and were often terribly crowded.
Tram service is infrequent on most lines except the 15 (with the newer light rail vehicles Dave mentions providing most, but not all, of the service) and the 28, which is a must-ride for any tourist visiting Lisbon.
The restored and preserved trams at the Carris Museum are very nice. I believe Tram #1, which is used to shuttle visitors between the two parts of the Museum, was built in 1901.
For those of you who are also bus fans, the Lisbon system is quite good, although the headways could be better on some of the routes. Some 30 foot buses are used on the hillier routes. Bottom line - in my opinion, Lisbon is a very nice transit town.
Hope you had a good trip.
You were missed.
Allan
I second that, sounds like you had fun!
Dave, glad you are back and the rest of the RR buffs. I did miss all of the action. Hope to see some new pictures soon.
>Welcome back, Dave
> You were missed.
I agree with this post.
hope you had a very good good time !! became 50 years old nov 3 2001 !!!!
Congrats.
At least someone here is older than me (I turn 50 on Tuesday)
I turn 60 in March, 2002. Who cares! We're all subway fans.
Welcome back, Dave!!!
Chuck Greene
I turn 60 in October 2042.
Lucky you!
oh no !! ( smile ) ...lol !!
Welcome to the half century club !
Bill "Newkirk"
........yep .........whew !!! ........lol !!!
Congratulations on your 50th birthday.
#3 West End Jeff
The title of the thread would seem to suggest that you're 100.
Good to be back. ANd Happy Birthday!
:-) Andrew
thank you appreciate that .........lol !!!
FOGY!!!
I'll be 45 in two weeks, FWIW.
congradulations on your 100th birthday:)
yes ! thank you .... i needed that !!! ....lol !!!
Amtrak is going to spend 70,000 to study a new station in Rochester New York. Rochester, in conjunction with various state agencies wants to make the future of rail travel along the Empire Corridor a bright one. The new station will be designed a future hi-speed corridor. The curent station, built in 1971, was designed to replace the classic station, torn down in the mid-60's.
its been a LONG! time. i had to deal with that other site Railroad.net. its nice, but it aint the same tho. its kinda like having a imitation of a playstation. nothing beats the real thing altho i aint got a playstation. lol
Does anyone have an update of what going on at the Atlantic Ave Station on the Canarsie Line. Any new photos ?? Lat I heard they were to disconnect the flyover to the Broadway Line.
The flyover from the Manhattan bound track (J2A) is out of service for about a year. COnstruction is going hot and heavy-- steel is going up just South of Atlantic for the new track.
They have already done so, along with the Yard Lead. You can see where the new connection route to the flyover will go from the northbound train. Southbound flyunder is still there. Those hideous gooseneck/hatbox lights have sprouted on the west platform AND at Sutter Avenue. The tracks in the centre location are gone. It looks like the first new box girder elevated steel in MANY MANY years (someone let me know how many) is going up alongside the southbound tracks. They're moving right along with this project.
wayne
I have now seen some R142 cars with blue tape under the number plate. I think blue is the color for Livonia. If that is the case does that mean we will see some R142 cars on the 1 and/or 3.
BTW- Welcome Home, Dave. We missed you and we missed our favorite site's BBS.
Nope, not Livonia, it's to signal to the T/O that there was the brake modification that makes 40psi I think full service. I don't know the rest but it's to signal a brake mod.
I posted the hole bullinten before dave left on vaction. You can look it up in thge older posts.
Robert
Thanks, Clayton. For now all R142(and R142A)cars are based at East180. WIll they ever get the color tape system used on other IRT cars once they spread to other lines or will East180 continue to be the only location to service these cars.
At the moment, E 180 is the only barn capable of dealing with these cars. As time goes on, I'm sure Westchester Yard will be outfitted with the necessary equipment, followed by 239 St.
::GASP!!:: You mean we buy the CARS...
without buying the the EQUIPMENT first??
Shunt' it be the other way around?
Aren't you supposed to have a cardboard
box down BEFORE you get an armadillo for a pet?
The 'necessary equipment' is an overhead crane to take out/put in the roof mounted AC units. When E.180 barn was rebuilt prior to the R142 arrival, it was fitted out with just such a crane, making it, I believe, the only such barn in the IRT.
The BIG MIXUP. Originally, as posted here by someone, the blue stripe indicated to the T/O that the R142 car had TBU A+ brake modifications that had a higher pressure and those cars were not to be coupled with the unmodified except in yard movements...the crew wouldn't believe the 'new guy.' (There was a cross marked undercar.) They asked me then about pressure gauge readings...I said write down your measurements as you make them. When the flags appeared, so did more blue stripes (looked nice!) The blue stripes were then put on to let T/Os know that the cars had UNMODIFIED brakes and the strip would be removed when the mod was made (leaving a rectangular mark on the carbody.) Peter
10.5 Million dollard have been allocated to extern the new Amtrak "Downeaster" service from Portland to Brunswick. This is interesting considering that the regular service hasn't even started yet. The project is set to cost between 25 and 30 million $ and will involve rehabilitation of an existing RoW and a new 1800 foot bridge. The contruction of the bridge was set to begin next June, but there are some problems with obtaining a USCG permit.
IMHO, Amtrak should try to get the service startede and establish an actual market for a longer-than-bus-and-more-expensive trip, before going bonkers extyending a currently vaporware service.
Of course, I'm sure this service will be watched *very* closely, and if it looks floppy, it'll be killed fast.
It was the state of Maine that really wants the extention.
And since the State of Maine is paying, why not?
Now that they have provided electrification from Boston to Washington, are there any other locations that are being looked into to electrify? It's better than diesel...
are there any other locations that are being looked into to electrify? It's better than diesel...
I don't think AMTRAK is looking forward to electrification projects around this time. After all, everyone's been commenting on AMTRAK not making any profit at the end of fiscal years, with revenue taxes all in the way.
Also, to start an electrification project, you have to order equipment, select a contractor, and be sure the construction crew doesn't affect the freightliners that pass by on THEIR tracks that AMTRAK uses.
Take notice of NJ TRANSIT's electrification project and extension of the Montclair Branch Line.
AMTRAK only owns 3%, or 718 miles of the national rail that they travel on, including many bridges and tunnels. AMTRAK trains which operate trans-continental routes have to keep their schedule in order not to create chaos in the midst of freight companies which own their portion of the rail.
Someone here mentioned about a "bullet" train which could probably get from here to Los Angeles in 10 hours. I'll tell you, with the many speed restrictions, curves, electrification, budget, and all the backbreaking stuff, this can't happen.
As for you, get used to it, and I will too, likewise.
: )
Railfan Pete.
are there any other locations that are being looked into to electrify? It's better than diesel...
I don't think AMTRAK is looking forward to electrification projects around this time. After all, everyone's been commenting on AMTRAK not making any profit at the end of fiscal years, with revenue taxes all in the way.
Also, to start an electrification project, you have to order equipment, select a contractor, and be sure the construction crew doesn't affect the freightliners that pass by on THEIR tracks that AMTRAK uses.
Take notice of NJ TRANSIT's electrification project and extension of the Montclair Branch Line.
AMTRAK only owns 3%, or 718 miles of the national rail that they travel on, including many bridges and tunnels. AMTRAK trains which operate trans-continental routes have to keep their schedule in order not to create chaos in the midst of freight companies which own their portion of the rail.
Someone here mentioned about a "bullet" train which could probably get from here to Los Angeles in 10 hours. I'll tell you, with the many speed restrictions, curves, electrification, budget, and all the backbreaking stuff, this can't happen.
As for you, get used to it, and I will too, likewise.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I don't think New York to Los Angeles trips are the right job for rail anyway. I think that is an appropriate use of air travel, and where we went wrong was eliminating rail from the shorter trips where it makes sense.
Mark
Well, AMTRAK's main purpose to running trans-continental routes is for people who don't or are "allergic" to flying. It also provides service for people who have the freedom of time.
Also, some people are not in the mood to fly, so they prefer the train instead.
I hear you. Given enough time I always prefer to ride a train than to fly. But I just think that it's acceptable if don't achieve ten-hour train trips from New York to Los Angeles in the near future. I'd settle for a 3 hour ride from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh.
Which may be just as out of reach given all the usual resons...
Mark
"I don't think New York to Los Angeles trips are the right job for rail anyway. I think that is an appropriate use of air travel, and where we went wrong was eliminating rail from the shorter trips where it makes sense."
I agree that we need shorter-distance trains like the Northeast Corridor throughout the country, though not necessarily electrified -- speeds like 110 or 125mph can be achieved with diesel engines much more cheaply than electrification. I definitely want corridors here in the Midwest.
But there is NOTHING wrong with long-distance trains. As a replacement for air travel? Of course not. But what's wrong with having TWO (or more) modes available for a given trip?! Isn't America supposed to be about having CHOICES?
1) People DO ride these trains, to the point that in the summer and Thanksgiving-Christmas seasons the long-distance trains are booked up weeks in advance. There are people who are afraid to fly. More commonly, there are people with time on their hands who want to travel in comfort (flying sucks!) but not at the high expense of AOE-style tourist trains. Enough people to operate an hourly schedule like the NEC or the airlines? No, of course not. But enough to run two or maybe three trains daily on each route -- two trains 12 hours apart would guarantee that every station has at least one daylight or decent-hour stop -- and maybe add a route or two to the existing map, such as a Texas to Denver route or the obvious lack in the present Amtrak map, a Chicago to Florida route.
2) There are small towns inbetween the cities, places with no modern shiny 21st Century jetport, many with no scheduled air service, period. A train is eminently the BEST way to bring non-automobile transport (not everyone savors 10-hour marathon drives!) to such communities. Unlike a plane that connects one city to another and skips everything inbetween, it adds little to travel time and even less to operating expenses to have a train already traveling between Chicago and Los Angeles stop at selected smaller communities as well as the cities along the way. For these places, two or three trains a day would be more than ample service. On the Empire Builder, a route particularly isolated from air transport, where additionally the highways have a charming habit of snowing over in the winter, the annual ridership at some rural stops can be larger than the population of the county where the stop is located and even larger than some of the cities (Fargo, Spokane) along the route!
Maybe it's me, but I see your statement as "let them fly airplanes". The problem is, as with the French lower classes circa 1789 and cake, many of them haven't got any!
I agree that we need shorter-distance trains like the Northeast Corridor throughout the country, though not necessarily electrified -- speeds like 110 or 125mph can be achieved with diesel engines much more cheaply than electrification. I definitely want corridors here in the Midwest.
As a matter of fact, I have referred to a website which lists AMTRAK railcars and lines and history of service, and it marked in italics that no diesel has ever accomplished 125mph.
This I think was in the Metroliner section because the top speed for METROLINER trains is 125 mph en route to DC.
Electrified trains provide more versatility in speed than diesel. Consider the AMTRAK's Acela Express train. That train has two power cars to achieve 150mph.
AMTRAK does have some corridors out west. Consider the Auto Train from Lorton, VA to Sanford, FL (adjacent to Orlando), and "City of New Orleans" from Chicago to New Orleans. I don't know if there are others, but there are also THRUWAY services such as buses and ferries and whatnot.
Or a rider can choose to stay for a short time on a long distance train.
But the main reason for those whopping transit times are due to dwell times in stations. Consider if the "Crescent" train went non-stop from NY to New Orleans (besides signals, etc.). It would be very different from performing the same task WITH all the stops.
Dwell times weigh heavily on transit time on this route in Philadelphia 30 St. Station, and Atlanta, GA, for 20 minutes each. There might be other stations too with shorter times.
But this is a result for "slow" trains which operate long-distance.
AMTRAK does have some corridors out west. Consider the Auto Train from Lorton, VA to Sanford, FL (adjacent to Orlando), and "City of New Orleans" from Chicago to New Orleans. I don't know if there are others, but there are also THRUWAY services such as buses and ferries and whatnot.
Add AMTRAK's "CASCADES", and the "Pacific Surfliner" from San Luis Obispo to San Diego, CA. Both are short-distance trains serving stations in California.
"Add AMTRAK's 'CASCADES', and the 'Pacific Surfliner' from San Luis Obispo to San Diego, CA. Both are short-distance trains serving stations in California."
Correct on the Surfliner, but not the Cascades; that service does not enter California. The Cascades service is financed by the states of Washington and Oregon and operates in those states, with the exception of one round trip daily to Vancouver, British Columbia. Its main purpose is to connect Seattle and Portland, though it also extends north and south of those cities.
generally well said, although I doubt diesel power at 125mph. And, yes, I simply prefer rail for all but coast to coast (and I have done that a few imes). Here in Ca, we have steadily increasing corridor ridership in several areas and fairly packed trains from North to South in the valley. (five a day) In turn, the Coast tarlight, despite miserable time performance is mostly sold out all year long.
"Someone here mentioned about a "bullet" train which could probably get from here to Los Angeles in 10 hours"
A "Bullet" train runs on its own right of way, with NO freight cars in the way.
Can it be built. There are endless thousands of miles of suitiable right of way that can be used (called interstate highways). Just plant some nice elevated lines in the median. Wouldnt even cost much more than the original highway.
All Aboard!
Nice idea, but then there is that thing that happens out in the midwest, called tornadoes, which is bad enough for trains running on the ground, but will really be hard on an elevated line of any type.
Then there is the local town or village where the line goes through, and they may have an impact on if the line gets built or not - 'You won't stop here? - well then you won't go through here!' - and other vested interests of that type. Again, nice idea, but the obstacles just keep on coming.
But wouldn't the budget pile up with contractors, equipment, shipment, hiring and paying architects, and positioning of the railway?
You can't have a bullet train run alongside an entire length of a highway. There will always be different types of obstacles, including inclement and severe weather conditions in the MidWest.
Also, what kinds and companies of bullet trains are there in the U.S.?
A big thanks to Harry Beck for his board. He also runs a quality board and for one I appreciate his willingness to have us post there. I will continue to post to his site as well as this site.
Second.
I hope Harry doesn't junk his website. I have become a part of it and another subway site is like manna from Heaven. Harry baby, keep the site.
Harry has no reason to take it down. First of all, he's got a nice collection of pictures that you don't see here, and the boards are QUITE amusing normally. The influx of folks from here kinda twisted it around some steel as those of us who hang out there regularly are used to a handful of new messages a day instead of thousands. :)
But the beauty of Harry's place is that those of us who hang out there are either transit employees, former employees, people who do railroading in its many facets and of course our spiritual leader in exile, ayatollah HeyPaul. Heh. But those of us who hang their hats there do so as if it was the "terminal bar and grill" ... folks who do choochoos tend not to foam as much and don't have a whole lot to say other than general ball-busting and laughing at the industry. It's a GREAT place to shoot the sheet and not have to wade through a lot of dumbness.
I say that not to demean anyone here - hell I spend a lot more time hanging out here than Harry's place, but I certainly do enjoy the nicer environment ... like a good old fashioned corner bar. And Harry goes out of his way to make us all feel warm and cozy, absent the self-appointed "off-topic police" ... and folks who like to rip flesh just don't have a whole lot of fun there. :)
Harry ain't going anywhere though ... and I'm forever thankful that the rumors of this place's demise were ... well ...
W R O N G ! ! !
Moo. :)
Harry's place almost back to normal!
Subtalkers are gone Heh.
Thank you for the kind words.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Totally agrre, thanks Harry.
Simon
Swindon UK
Hey! Sign me up for that! Thank you, Harry for keeping us sane in Subtalk's absence.
:-) Andrew
So will I. It's good to know that there's two sites out there now (maybe more) where I can find out a whole lot of things I never knew about the NYC subway and other cities' rail systems.
First things first. Walcome back.
I was at Jay Street on Station on the North bound side. I saw a new type of holding light. I looks like a small silver boz with seven small LED lights around it. Had else have seen it.
Robert
Saw one today. It was green LED starting lights at Far Rockaway. Better to see in the sunlight.
why sun light?
When a station is outdoors, the TA doesn't have much choice.
It's about time they made better lights. Like Z Man said about the one in Far Rockaway, these new ones are much better to see. When the light is bright one can hardly see the old starting lights that were there. I don't think these lights will be as easy for vandals to break as the regular old light bulbs were.
Dang! Back in the "good old days" they had a boxing glove mounted on scissor metal that'd roll out and punch you in the head when it was time to close up. :)
LED's? How *civilized!*
Hey Kev - guess what? I had dream last night involving a prewar D train. When it pulled into the station I was in, I said I'm staying on it for the CPW dash whether I'm late for my bus or not. No headlights, all the marvelous R-1/9 sounds. Just like the good old days.
You bid to work Far Rock? Willingly? Or did you not bid and get unlucky or was it one of those awesome 1 trippers with a put in and a wash?
I was able to pick a job this pick. I had five thing to pick from. All of them were with "C" Division. I will be working the PM tour "C"
Division X-list, with Tuesday and Wensday off. The other were "C"
XX-list, with different days off and tours each week.
Robert
"C" Division is IND?
What does that translate to in routes? What could you possibly get?
C Division is Work Trains/Miscellaneous. It means Robert will most probably be the guy at the front end of the work trains letting the guy in the cab know what the track conditions are ahead. Nasty work in the winter.
Not Releay, the guy I am paired with was in my class with me. I told him that we are going to trade off from time to time.
Robert
C line is in the IND, North Division, which encompasses the A, C, J, M, L, and Z trains , and the Rockaway Park Shuttle
Division C? Have you received training on how to operate the TA's fleet of diesel and electric locomotives???
-Stef
No not yet, I have to put in a request for the training. This makes no sence. My name should be put in as soon as I pick in to C division.
Robert
You were one of the last to pick a job? What file number if you don't mind sharing? Was it on Monday they ran out?
My file nember is 3225. No there were three job left for Tuesday also C div. As for Vaction I was the last person the get anything passed Apr. I got the 2nd week of November.
Robert
Those C division "XX" jobs as you call them (actually 900 series temporary jobs) would've kept you on the PM tour for the entire pick, but all that would've changed through the pick were your days off. With those jobs, you rarely see the work trains and you usually work the road extra list. It's a sneaky way of possibly getting part of the weekend off since you can negotiate your RDO's.
No I pick a 3XX job. My RDO's and Tours stay the same all the time. My other two friends from School Cars had to pick a 8XX jobs there RDO's and tours can change weekly. There is still one this the same, I can also be put into road jobs if there is no jobs for me on the work train.
Robert
>>>>>>>My other two friends from School Cars had to pick a 8XX jobs there RDO's and tours can change weekly.
Next time, take a look at the pick board. You'll see that the 900 jobs that your friends picked say on the top "PM class". If they picked 700 jobs, then that will be listed as "MID class". They didn't pick the 800's for the AM class because that was closed even for me. Their tour will remain the same, but their RDO's will change.
I looked yesterday and say that there RDO's are the only thing that can change. They both have 9XX jobs. My mistake.
Robert
Hi Dave and welcome back Hope to hear all the details of your trip somewhere along the way, we had an interesting mini-trip on Oct 25 which included three anthrax scares, and loads of Redbirds and Slants, even on the "M". Nov 14 I am off to the other side of the Pond to see what is at Elephant and Castle and get a ride on some 1973 Tube Stock.
wayne
We will ,do better than that, how about some 1962 stock and perhaps 1938 :)
Simon
Swindon UK
Be sure to take in the original 1863 portion when you're there. Give it my regards.
BTW I thought your analogy to us being bounced around like ping-pong balls on the 25th was cute, but chances are people got the impression we were doing impressions of Sheriff
Ping
Ping
PING
Ricochet Rabbit.
OK, I couldn't resist. Let's just say we had to put Plan C into action. We skipped Plan B.
Did anyone hear about the shooting at Dekalb today. I have been watching and listing to the news all day, but no one said anything about it. Well if you did not hear about it, I was at 95st when it happen. It would seem the a man went nuts when another man was looking a his woman. The first man stated shoting and hit at least five people on the south bound platform. He then went into the tunals to hide. For what I heard at least three died at the seen with gun shots wound to the head. I heard that all five died at some point in time. The cops did get the men some were in the tunals. Severice was supened for about two hours at first though Dekalb in both direction, and later only serivce stoping going into the city later.
Anyone else can give more info about, please jump in.
Robert
Haven't heard anything either I was listening to WCBS and there wasn't any mention at all.
A shooting or a stabbing? I heard the latter from a TA worker of some sort who was riding a rerouted Q train with me. But you have more details, so you're probably right.
According to a C/R on an R that sat at Lawrence for about five minutes, it happened at around 6am. As of 11:30 or so, since the Q train in question was still blocking the bridge track at DeKalb, Brooklyn-bound N, R, and Q trains shared the tunnel, bypassing DeKalb. (Q trains ran express from 42 to Canal and made all stops via lower Manhattan, except of course Cortlandt and DeKalb.) Manhattan-bound trains were normal, including DeKalb.
Aside from the confusion issue, I wonder if it occurred to anyone to run the Q local from Astoria to Stillwell via Brighton and the N express from 42 to Stillwell via the bridge and West End. That would have alleviated the clog in the tunnel and the N train could have used the bypass track. (But it really would have been too confusing, especially on a day that already had its share of confusing GO's.)
Probably be in Monday's newspapers.
Did anyone hear about the shooting at Dekalb today. I have been watching and listing to the news all day, but no one said anything about it. Well if you did not hear about it, I was at 95st when it happen. It would seem the a man went nuts when another man was looking a his woman. The first man stated shoting and hit at least five people on the south bound platform. He then went into the tunals to hide. For what I heard at least three died at the seen with gun shots wound to the head. I heard that all five died at some point in time. The cops did get the men some were in the tunals. Severice was supened for about two hours at first though Dekalb in both direction, and later only serivce stoping going into the city later.
There's nothing in any of today's papers that I can find. Granted, crime news is a bit less newsworthy in the post-Sept. 11 era, but a multiple homicide like this - especially one in the subway - certainly would get a lot of attention.
In Tuesday's Newsday (page A40) there is brief article about the shooting on the Q train over the weekend. Quoting the article by Melanie Lefkowitz, two brothers, Chike & Kefentse Johnson, 20 & 22 years old were riding Q train in Bklyn at 5 AM when two 17 year old girls entered the train. Chike began talking to one girl when 5 other young gentlemen of the neighborhood boarded the train. They began accosting the second girl. Both Johnsons intervened at which point the five men pulled "sharp weapons". Chike, not to be outdone, pulled out a gun and shot his brother, presumably by accident. 6 were hurt and all 7 were arrested in the melee that followed. I smell another Darwin award candidate here.
Aaahhhhh...it's New York getting back to normal. Imagine if this had been an incident with Car Inspectors disputing the World Series! I'm smart...know zip about baseball and couldn't stay up past 4th inning. Peter
Well, if he shot his brother, he definitely caught the other five gentlemen by surprise -- No way they were expecting that...
Sortof similar to the Cleavon Little scene in "Blazing Saddles" where he holds the gun to his own head and threatens the crowd, "one move and the sheriff gets it!"
HERE are the details from the Daily News.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>In the confrontation, one brother accidentally shot the other in the leg shortly before 5 a.m. Then each side pulled out knives and box cutters and began hacking away, spilling blood in the moving car and terrorizing passengers.
If McMahon reads this, he'll get a whiff to say
one of the brothers 'was to turn heel at the next PPV'
Last thursday and friday (maybe wed. too), the W was local in astoria at all times, with noticably less N's and W's in total. Anyone know if the w will ever return to 'normal' express service, with a service level back at what it was post manny-b bridge flip? inquiring minds...
bright side: at least the N/R/J/M/Z thing is back 2 normal...
Hey, some of us liked the extended J/M, especially on weekends.
Yea man, the M is a great train! It was a great replacement while the N was gone. Sure there weren't any R68s, but service was increased...
You're responding to someone who finds R-68's somewhat unpleasant and who (believe it or not) thoroughly enjoys R-42's.
The J/M has a bunch of great transfers in lower Manhattan, marred only by the inconvenient access at Fulton between the NB J/M and the 1/2. Transfer offerings on the N/R are pretty slim down there. For the first time since 1992, the J/M stopped at Fulton on weekends.
I have to agree with you on that. A lot of times, I just took the M home from lower Manhattan. Also the seats on R42s are nice. Their groove is better.
Are the seats on the R-42 any different than those on the R-32, R-38, or [insert favorite Redbird class here]?
I do find them somewhat more comfortable than the newer colored seats -- and need I even mention the hideous R-40 and R-142 seats, which are just shaped wrong?
I have nothing against the r142 seats. I like R68s because I can just look out the window if I'm fortunate enough to get a window seat. But yea, the seats on 32s and 38s are larger in height for the back. The seats on 40s are the shortest, and I think 42s are the same if not slightly taller, but the nice groove makes up for it.
Before you get too carried away my friend let's look at the big picture. The N is still off the bridge and now it isn't even headed to Stillwell but is 86thed at that station. Not exactly our finest hour is it?
I see your point. The N has been just getting dissed greatly this past year. On all fronts.
Nope. I also think that the actual quality of service has went down this year too. Just look at how they treat it when it comes back from the reroutes. They leave it the way it was for not even 1 week. They put it on the west end on the last days that it goes to stillwell. And now, a lot of confusion today on my way home as people started scrambling when they heard N to 86th.
be glad it is not a shuttle only
Glad I rode the M last a couple of weeks ago when they had slants all tjhe way
Therea re plenty of Slant R40s on the N train. One out of every three is usually an R40.
And 2 out of 3, you'll get the 32.
When I rode it it was on a Sunday, and it seemed like the service was 50-50 slants and non slants. The funny thing was they came in bunches, maybe 4-5 slants in a row, and then 4-5 non slants
I for one liked being able to go through Nassau Street to Brooklyn on a Saturday. Perhaps they'll be able to figure out a way to provide this service on the weekends on a permanent basis.
wayne
And I liked it on Sunday. (I don't ride the subway much on Saturday.)
Why not do away with the weekend W and instead extend the M to Coney Island? (To be consistent with weekday patterns, the N can serve as the 4th Avenue express.)
Woo-hoo! 4th Avenue express for the N :-D. But that would make the M look bad because of all the GOs on west end on weekends.
Anything is better than the N one-way loop that's been used since July 22.
OTOH, with the N platform now closed at Stillwell, I expect the one-way loop to be in use whenever possible. In most ways it's a pain (although I had a great West End ride on an R-40 today) but it would (temporarily) reconnect the Sea Beach line to Stillwell, at least in one direction.
Speaking of which, how much longer is it before the F and Q are cut back? If it will be a while, rather than having every single N terminate before Stillwell, why not share a platform with one of the other lines and have alternate trains on each line short-turn?
Is it possible to turn the F and Q at W8st? If so, and they do them one at a time, it wouldn't be that disruptive to service...
During non-rush hour times they could probably swing having the N bum track space off of the other three lines. You would need announcements telling people which track the next N would leave from, though. During the rush this may be impossible, but service on the W and N is frequent enough that people can go back to New Utrecht and transfer to the W.
As I pointed out on Harry Beck's board, the N and W already share a two-track terminal at Ditmars, so surely they could share a two-track terminal at Stillwell.
The only question is where trains get cleaned, and I don't have a great answer. Maybe W trains could terminate at Queensboro Plaza, relay on the middle track, and get cleaned there (can the car cleaners do their jobs without a platform to work off of?). That would leave Ditmars clear for the N.
Would it be entirely unreasonable to suggest simply doing without cleaning these two lines during rush hour?
As for turning the F and Q at West 8th, they'd need to relay on the tracks leading into Stillwell. I don't know if they can do that without extending to the platform itself.
It would be kind of tough terminating both N & W trains on the same platform at Stillwell. Yes, it is done at Ditmars Blvd., but at Stillwell due to all the switches, 4 platforms and 8 tracks (when everything is normal) moves to/from Stillwell Yard with Q and F trains using the interlocking entering and exiting, this may block the tracks used for the N & W for entering and leaving. Additonally, more trains are put in and laid up from Stillwell than at Ditmars. It may be tough getting them in and out on a combined 3 to 4 minute rush hour headway.
Why can't they just run a single-track shuttle train between Brighton Beach and West 8th Street and another one between the F-Train terminus and West 8th Street. That would be a great idea!
- Lyle Goldman
How many people would ride these shuttles?
How many people would ride these shuttles? How about everyone who would otherwise be without any train service, including myself, my family, and many other people.
In the past, they have always provided shuttle service to stations that were deprived of regular train service for long periods of time whenever possible. Why won't they do it here?
- Lyle Goldman
I think there will be shuttle bus service, although probably not on quite the same routes as the subway lines.
When the Franklin Avenue shuttle was out, it was replaced with buses. During the Lenox Invert project, the minimal and confusing 2 and 3 service was supplemented by bus service.
The Brighton and Culver will be easy to shuttle busses. What is the route of the N shuttle bus, I can only think 86th St to Stillwell and then down Stillwell
Two obvious possibilities:
(1) The N shuttle bus will connect to the W at Bay 50th Street.
(2) A single shuttle bus will serve the N and the F, and possibly even the Q.
We'll see what happens.
1 will be stupid, from Bay 50th to Stillwell is only 1/4 more mile so why have them change twice, it also would be easier to change at 86th/25Ave to the W. I figure the bus will go along 86th to Stillwell and down Stillwell to Mermaid where the 64 Bus terminates, or to Surf Ave
Or how about this radical idea: SHUTTLE TRAINS!
- Lyle Goldman
... but if the whole point of the shuttle busses are to replace trains that can't get to stillwell because of stillwell construction, then where will the trains go? Nowhere.
> where will the trains go?
Between West 8th Street and the termini of the F and Q lines, of course!
- Lyle Goldman
It would make more sense to run the bus to and down Shell Road, so it can also replace the F.
> When the Franklin Avenue shuttle was out, it was replaced with buses.
That's different. The entire line was closed. Where would they going to put shuttle trains?
> During the Lenox Invert project, the minimal and confusing 2 and 3 service was supplemented by bus service.
But they did have train service, too. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be bus service. All I am saying is that there really must be train service. The tracks are there! Why can't they have train service?
- Lyle Goldman
Because there will be only one open platform at Stillwell, and the W will be using it. Where do you expect all these shuttle trains to drop off their passengers? If there were platform space available, there would be no need for shuttles of any sort.
> Where do you expect all these shuttle trains to drop off their passengers?
How about West 8th Street? They can use single-track shuttles. Why not?
- Lyle Goldman
Let's see. We can have single-track shuttles that don't quite make it to Stillwell. Or we can have shuttle buses that go all the way to Stillwell, with full transfers to the other shuttle buses (and the W) there. Shuttle buses seem to make a lot more sense here than shuttle trains.
Why the insistence on trains rather than buses? Traffic isn't a big deal around Coney Island and I've never seen terribly large crowds on the Q (or D) south of Brighton Beach.
> We can have single-track shuttles . . . Or we can have shuttle buses.
Can't we have both?
- Lyle Goldman
What would be the point? How would you justify the cost of providing duplicate service?
There is partial duplicate service from Brighton Beach to W 8th via B68 Bus, they would not need a shuttle from Brighton, all they would have to do is extend the B68 to Stillwell
And pass out transfers at the stations, and allow passengers to board the extended B68 from Brighton Beach south for free, and add enough service to handle the crowds. Since that additional service would only be needed south of Brighton Beach, we could just call it -- a shuttle bus!
Q:The Q is able t terminate at Ocean Pkwy,but for W8 street that repuires a fw changes to it's schedule.
F:I think the F can stop at Neptune Avenue tell me if I'm wrong please.
More good news:
1) It appears, from my TA sources, that (tentatively) Manny B work is and will be proceeding, and we can still get four-track service established in 2004.
2) My Port Authority sources tell me that JFK AirTrain lost a grand total of one construction day, is currently ahead of schedule, and will open as expected. Newark AirTrain is operational. I will ride Newark AirTrain on Tuesday during a business trip. When you buy an Amtrak ticket to EWR (Newark Airport), the Monorail fare is included. My round trip Philly to EWR on Amtrak Acela Regional is $100 (but I saved at least $800 roundtrip by not flying from Philadelphia's airport).
3) Are we, on Subtalk, going to work together to keep the pressure on the TA and PA to restore the PATH service to the former WTC site, and the South Ferry line? I imagine those things would happen anyway, with time, but our voices do help.
NJT tickets to EWR station also include the monorail fare.
Notice: As of 10/28/01 W service will run local in Queens in both directions at all times that it is scheduled to run in Queens.
Due to complaints over the W express or for some other reason?
Is this a permanent change? Why does the map indicate the W is express?
Complaints over the W? Well tough tacos. The W has been in operation for only a few months and the W aficiandos are up in arms about its use. Well maybe now those characters can get a load of how we Sea Beach fans have been fulminating over the way the N train has been relegated to the subway scrap heap the past few years. Now we don't only get deprived of the Manny B, we get shortchanged at Stillwell as well. We been 86thed, so to speak. So let's not shed any crocodile tears for the W until justice is given to the N, ok?
So Fred, how do you feel about the Snakes winning the Series?:-)
The Yankees lost. That would make anybody red-blooded American thank the Heavens for some fair justice.
The Yankees are America s Team, Emblem, Uncle Sam, Colors Red White andf Blue. By the way Fred are you related to Joe Torre. Simnnce your name ends in Tore
Joe Torre is a real gentleman. I don't know how he's manage to stay on working for Steinbrenner, who Steinbrenner has had the best team that money can buy. Teams used to develop their players, or make clever trades to get them. The Yankees are a bunch of hired guns, mercernaries, no more, no less, and for many years. I'm with Fred here. I love it that the Yankees lost and I wish them the worst.
Thank you Q. You are a genleman and a scholar, and a friend. But I agree with you on Joe Torre. He is a class act and is headed to the Hall of Fame.
A lot of the Yankees are home grown, Spencer, Jeter, Rivera, just to name 3, Brosius, trade, Sojo Trade(will retire) O Neal trade(great trade) Bernie Williams Home grown. Sorriano Home grown, and more coming up. D Backs, all free agents and trades. Mostly free agents. how else would they get there in 4 years? Joe Torre, remember playing against him in Marien Park and Parade Grounds in 50s when he was know as Frank Torre s kid brother. I forgot Pettit, farm system
A lot of the Yankees are home grown, Spencer, Jeter, Rivera, just to name 3, Brosius, trade, Sojo Trade(will retire) O Neal trade(great trade) Bernie Williams Home grown. Sorriano Home grown, and more coming up. D Backs, all free agents and trades. Mostly free agents. how else would they get there in 4 years? Joe Torre, remember playing against him in Marien Park and Parade Grounds in 50s when he was know as Frank Torre s kid brother. I forgot Pettit, farm system D backs only one real superstar in Randy Johnson, the rest fair players having a Career Season. Let us see where they will be next year
Torre enjoyed a renaissance during his playing career after he lost 25 pounds in 1970. The following year, he walked off with the National League's MVP award.
The Bob and Fred Show is back, I see.:-)
Paddy Chaievski's "Network" has yet demonstrated itself to be reality, Though I'm WILLING to kick in to the cause. :)
HUH???
YUP, WE IS BACK
His name has two r's, mine only one. When he was growing up at the same time as me, he was a Giants fan. A Giants fan living in Brooklyn. The only thing more disgusting would be a Yankee fan living in Brooklyn. I was a Brooklyn fan living in Queens, though I spent much of my time in Brooklyn. So there is a difference between us. Maybe way back in the old country there might have been a relationship. My Tore or Torre means bulls, Pera or Peri means herder. We are a herder of bulls. I didn't even know they had bulls in Sicily. Probably before that my family tree goes back somewhere in Spain since the Spanish did settle for a time in Sicily.
I'm sure you've heard by now that Torre has a sister who is a Catholic nun and is pricipal of a parochial school in the city.
I remember when Torre cut his teeth managing the Mets. It wasn't his fault they finished last or next-to-last every year. He didn't have a whole lot to work with.
Joe Torre was fired as manager of the Mets, Braves and Cardinals. He announced for a time for the Angels. In about 13 years of managing he won only one division title. Now he's headed for the Hall of Fame because he has won five pennants and four world titles in six years as manager of the Yankees. He has done a fabulous job. He is one Yankee you just cannot help but like.
How about Jeter, Bernie, Tino(who i hope to be back next year) They won without the number 1 Superstars that everyone has. Where will Bonds Be next year. and Jason Giambi?
Did you notice thatthe base coaches for the Yanks are Brooklyn Boys. Now Joe should bring Matt Galenti from Houston
Casey Stengel went through a similar experience as a manager. I don't think he ever finished in the first division with the Dodgers or the Braves, but given the talent he had with the Yankees, well, you know the rest of the story. Unfortunately, his 3 1/2 years in last place with the Mets ruined his lifetime managerial average.
When the Mets won it all in 1969, the Ol' Perfessor was quoted as saying, "This is a team that came along slowly fast... Gimme another pineapple juice and vodka."
The change makes sense since express doesn't pay for a short line such as the Astoria. Also should reduce crowding on local platforms, which was reported when the W was running express. I'm glad the MTA listened to the complaints of those waiting at packed Astoria local platforms while an empty W went down the middle.
I knew they would eventually stop W Astoria Express service. If the WTC wasn't destroyed, it would have happened earlier.
Here's the thing though - there seem to be less of both N and W, thus the crowding is almost (just slightly less) back to pre W service levels.
i suspect i'll see them guys with the clipboards hanging around 39th av this week or next, and perhaps a 'return to normal', service level wise, after that... ...or so i hope!
If there's less Ns and Ws, then that means that where the N and W aren't together, the trains will be more crowded and wait times will be longer... great...!
Waited at Queensboro Plaza a couple of weeks ago, 5PM Friday Inbound 3 7s to 1 W
That's horrible... were there any Ns? If not, that's is just sad because both of them service Queensboro Plaza and for 3 7s to pass for one N or W... imagine what it's like when you only have the N or W to depend on like in south Brooklyn.
However, understand that the 7 has only 21 stops (compared to the N line which has 45+ stations). During rush hours, the 7 runs a train every two minutes (alternating local & express). The N (with the longer distance, but probably the same amount of trains) can only operate every 8 minutes during peak times for even spacing. And, if there's a bottleneck where the N has to share/switch tracks (such as Pacific St), the spacing of the trains is immediately affected.
Yea, I understand, just a little jealous though. The 7 after all is IRT. You are right though, the N has 45+ stations, so wouldn't you think they'd out more trains on it to reduce wait time? Then again, 4th Avenue and Broadway is pretty packed of trains.
During rush hour at Ditmars today, I noticed the complete opposite of what Brighton Express Bob saw. Trains came in, and out. It was like it wasn't even a terminal. I got off an N at Ditmars near the middle and walked to the end of the platform. I looked at the track and there were 2 trains headlights coming. By then, the bell rang and the N was ready to go.
This was the week before Halloween. the day before the Croton Open House
that's normal service. it's always been like that. sometimes up to 5, 6 7's before an N or W... 7's a more crowded line though.
That's too bad -- it was a nice service. But I predicted when it started that it wouldn't last, and I'm not surprised the MTA took advantage of the 9/11 disruptions to eliminate it. I womder how many riders will even remember it.
It was a nice service if your station was Ditmars or Astoria Blvd's! I'm sure there were uneven ridership patterns on the N vs. W.
It was pretty crowded on the days I rode it.
--Mark
If you REALLY wanted the express and you were on your way into Manhattan, you could of took a N to Ditmars and get a W fresh with seats at Ditmars. You get the express service in Queens and seats and through Manhattan also (if you want to call the Manhattan stretch express).
It is an express stretch on the diamond Q, especially with the slants. The Broadway Express is back with a vengeance.
And it was fun, but I had a Hippo
I was lucky in that I didn't have to let any R-68 diamond Qs go by. Every time I needed to catch a diamond Q, a train of slants pulled in first.
I did spot R-32 #3348 in the middle of a circle Q consist at Brighton Beach.
Aren't pretty much all diamond Q's slants?
Nope
As a daily Brighton Line rider, I beg to differ. With rare exceptions, the Q Diamond is served solely by slant R-40s.
David
Most of the diamond Qs I saw during my visit were slants; however I did see an R-68 consist or two each day - headed in the opposite direction. All of the diamond Qs I rode on were slants.
When I was on it yesterday, it was a little better than it was during the summer. I had a R68A W. It's still no Fulton Street A... doubt it ever will be...
The Union Square-34th St. express run brought back some nice memories of N trains of R-32s zipping along effortlessly on that same stretch all those years ago. Those slants are just as quick.
Welcome back, Broadway Express!
Bway express service is much slower than it was in the 1980's. I think they put a %$#@# wheel detector just north of Canal St.
Oh, I wouldn't say that. Northbound diamond Qs build up a good head of steam between Union Square and 34th St.
Try riding towards Brooklyn. You fly around the curve thru 8th St, then just short of Prince St. everything becomes a slow crawl down and around into Canal St.
I also experienced that slow crawl southbound just before Canal. I don't recall it ever being so slow there back in the old days.
Exactly. Not even in 1988, when traffic was identical and most service consisted of the new hippos. Some re-signaling must've been done here, or a wheel detecter was installed. I did notice some track replacement being done here, but this was on the uptown track.
And I love it. I never really appreciated the B'way line the last time the north side of the bridge was closed. Southern Brooklyn will have excellent subway service when the bridge is fully operational.
Those slants on the Diamond Q bring back memories of the N in the late 60s when the R-32s zipped effortlessly along Broadway. Not to mention the cars in your handle.
Too bad that by the time I began riding the system by myself in the mid 1980's, the cars in my handle were banished to the eastern division, or the old RR route. Once in a blue moon, an R30 would appear on the B train, and they sure did fly up both Broadway and Sixth Ave.
I used to hate the trains in your handle until they started making them red. I used them always on the J/M/L lines. When they started rebuilding the R40's and R42's I would always hope for one of the clean rebuilt ones............Now if only one of those trains(R27, etc) I hated would just pull into the station. How your views change......
Actually, they're my second favorite, next to the R16. Do you remember their last days on the J/M/LL? Ouch. But I loved em. I'd give anything to hear one sitting idle as it would whir, then stop, then whir again. I remember hearing them under the old Queens Blvd. J terminal as I'd x-fer to a Q49 bus on the street.
I used to hate the R16's. I would dread them. I would hate when one of them would pull into the station. They were so dirty.....again, if only now one would pull into the station, with that round window that opened. How our views change.....
I rode on a few R-27/30 D trains (one was signed as a DD) about 1980 and yes, they SMOKED on the 6th Ave. express dash.
Funny thing, I still associate those cars with the RR, as I remember them on that line back in 1967. There's a good chance we also rode on them in 1965 from 34th St. to Whitehall St. on a QT or RR.
Those things were DOGS ... looked like redbirds, WEREN'T ... pathetic pieces of four door per side IMPOSTERS ... only difference was it wasn't just ONE imposter, it was HORDES ... them things chewed the bag sad to say and they BELONGED on the RR, also a pathetic line telling its customers "Yo! You're living in a LOSER 'hood ... DO something ... MOVE!" :)
I must admit, the kiss of death, or the ultimate insult to your subway line was to run the R27/30 on it in the late 70's/1980's. It wasn't that bad when the rehabbed R30's showed up in 1985. In fact, many a local politician from Ridgewood/Middle Village became perturbed in 1985/6 because the J got the redbird R30's first, and the hellish R16's were increasingly shifted only to the M, especially after the M was removed from the Brighton line in April 1986.
I actually liked the original blue finish on their door interiors, although the teal on the R-32s was even better. We rode on an RR of R-27/30s from Brooklyn all the way to Times Square on April 30, 1967 after changing from an N at 59th St. At least I'm pretty sure it was an N; it was a train of R-32s and it pulled out of the station and kept going once we got off. I did get one question answered as that train left: the doors were in fact dark blue on the outside. I still don't know why my folks decided to bail out of that N train; it would have gotten us to Times Square much quicker.
I kinda liked the Blue doors better than the stainless steal. It gave them more character.
I can recall one Saturday about 1980 seeing an r27-30 D train (or at least it was marked that in the front. The rest of the signs on the side of the train seemed to all say that the train during the week was a rush hour N from Forest Hills to Whitehall St (with 2 extra cars tacked on in a hurry!!!!). It was probably around the time the R-46's and 44's were kicked off the D. I believe at the time, a train of R-46 D's almost went into someone's backyard along the Brighton run!!!! TOny
I rode it twice. Once to Manhattan, the W train still had available seats as it left Astoria Blvd at 8:15 AM. and whizzed past all those crowded local stops. The other was from Manhattan, and there were plenty of pissed off people who didn't realize it would skip their stop. And this was in early September, so confusion about the new routes cannot be used as an excuse.
I got on the 4th car of a W and tried to make it to the first at the next stop, Astoria Blvd. I missed the W and took the next N since it was a slant R40. Not a single W passed us. The express W only helps a select group of passengers which at 11 AM on a Monday isn't very large (8/20 was when I rode this).
It was a flawed concept which has been rightfully eliminated. Astoria should rejoice.
Unless you use Ditmars or Astoria Blvds.
A whopping 4 minutes the express saves. Is that worth the thousands of delayed Astoria local riders? There hasn't been express service in Astoria since 1949. Even with all kinds of service going there pre Chrystie. It wasn't necessary, and it simply delayed more people than the number of people whose rides were shortened.
>>A whopping 4 minutes the express saves.<<
Lately, a lot of posters have been denigrating the time saved by expresses, skip-stops, or potential express routes. Frankly, whatever happened to the concept of rapid transit? The whole point of the system should be to get you where you're going in the fastest time -- consistent with safety, of course. When you're running late for work in the morning, a whopping 4 minutes can seem like an eternity. Ditto for the 2- or 3-minute savings criticized by others on this board provided by various skip-stops, or the savings over the Manny B versus the tunnel, etc. Any "shortcut" route that potentially can be used should be used, in my view, if only during rish hour. All the third tracks should be used, the express bypass on the Culver should be reinstated, etc. Even if you only ran such trains on 15-minute headways, people who cared could time their arrivals to catch these trains. The system is TOO SLOW as it is. Faster service would lead to increased ridership, thus partially offsetting any increased costs.
It's not rapid transit anymore; it's leisurely transit.
No, it's "get you from here to there" transit. Time is secondary.
Someone will figure this out and get it right.
As I was walking around the 30 ave area during Friday's rush, I can see W and N trains crawling to reach the 30 ave station. I can understand having trains go local in the morning, but after a few weeks of trains crawling just to get to 30 ave (maybe even back to Bway) there will be people complaining to make it express again.
And I know it's senseless to have it local in the morning and express in the afternoon but oh well
=)
As of 11/03/01 untill 11/05 the "N" trains will be turning about at 86street. The TA is right now putting in a brand new switch from 2 on the "N" tracks into the "Q" tracks. I do not know if they are going to put the "Q" on th "N" platform and take out the track into the "Q" or what.
Robert
I don't know where I read it, but the N will be terminating at 86th Street during the Stillwell reconstruction.
I'd have to guess that the Q is going to be using the normal N tracks at Stillwell.
That's not quite right.
One GO poster announced that the N would terminate at 86th Street from November 3 until 2005 due to platform work. But another had the Brooklyn-bound N running over the W to Coney Island.
Here's what in fact is going on. Until 5am tomorrow, the N is running south on the West End and north on the Sea Beach, stopping at the W platform at Stillwell. Beginning at 5am tomorrow, the N will terminate at 86th. I assume this weekend's arrangement will be used whenever track work on the West End or Sea Beach warrants suspending the W and rerouting the N one way instead.
That'd be nice for the N to still have access to Stillwell. I still don't see why the N can't share the W platform at Stillwell. Sure there'd be a lot of trains, but usually on the W platform, there's only one train there anyway. As for this weekend, just say that the N's terminating at 86th street, but CI bound trains are running to CI over West End. So technically, actual terminating at 86th wont be until Monday. Yea, it's kinda late to be posting this now, but o well...
N trains were turning quickly at Stillwell today. My train pulled into track 7 (? - the one up against the F). I went down for a quick walk around the station and the train was gone when I returned. Another one pulled in on the same track and left within two minutes.
(FWIW, the D train did a similar quickie in-and-out at 2nd Avenue.)
I also don't see why the N cannot share the W platform. Lazy is a word that comes to mind. Maybe the tower operators have arthritis and can't throw the switches too often. Oh, how I long for the days of the old trackside towers...
Is it that hard to throw a switch? Do they just push a button or is it complicated?
Head to the "Subway Tech" part of the site for more infos on that in the "Signals" part. Then try it yourself here...
http://nxsys.nycsubway.org/
I have that thing, it's pretty cool. Is a new version gonna be made? The process doesn't seem that hard... but in real life, are the controls touch screen?
Thank about a bigger board, the whole yard attatched to it, more trains, more tracks, more switches, a non-scaleable board, some other people in your way, someone calling for a lineup then it sure is.
Is the N Running again or is it the M?
"Is the N Running again or is it the M?"
The (N) is running back on the old Sea Beach ROW while the (M) is back on the West End.
Bill "Newkirk"
... poor M... sorry it has to go back... :-D
This is what a dispatcher told me re; no n to stillwell
N trains are terminating at 86st to allow the n pockets (track 1&2)to be renovated. When they are finished the W terminal will be put on 1&2.At that time the f and Q will be terminating before stillwell(i think at bayparkway and brighton coud be wrong)
Comment on why the w can"t share the platform with the n? Remember what happens in astoria during the week yikes!
Wait a minute... so when the N platform is finished, they're going to put the W on the N platform? Argh... friggin W... can't they make the W terminate somewhere else and have the N to Stillwell?
Now you are talking sense. The reason for this sad situation is the fact that the TA has its balls out for the Sea Beach. They always seem to get short-changed. Something needs to be done but I am unable to do anything except complain. If I lived in New York I would try and do something about it, though. Some of you guys should find why the Sea Beach has ben getting the shaft for so long.
O Train Dude... where are you...?
The West End has more passengers then the Slow Bit line, so they use the West End as a more important line
Why is that? The Sea Beach has fewer stops, is less curvy, and has more of an express run in Brooklyn (N runs express from 59th to Pacific; W runs express only from) 36th to Pacific. I'll bet that if the N bypassed DeKalb and continued over the Manny B and up the Broadway Express tracks, it would be way more popular than the W, which would have to go into the Montague tunnel.
I hate to break it to you, but (railfans excepted) most passengers on the four lines to Coney Island aren't actually going to Coney Island itself. The N is the least used of the four lines because its intermediate stations are the least used.
Don't get me wrong -- I very much enjoy the Sea Beach ride. But if I lived in Brooklyn, I'd ride the train that took me closest to home -- and that's less likely to be the N than the F, Q, or W.
Maybe that's why they could get away with running eight-car trains of slants when the M was filling in for the N. Looking at my Hagstrom map, the N and the W run pretty close to each other except where the W goes through Borough Park. The Bath Beach area is also better served by the W. But Bensonhurst and Dyker Heights are better served by the N, I think.
I think Dyker might be better served by the West End, but Bensonhurst is so big that it's pretty much shared by the 2. I can take either, and have 3 choices of stops on the West End, 71st, 79th, and Bay Parkway. ALthough if I get off at Bay Parkway, I'd much rather take a bus. 71st is a long walk home, and I'd only get off at 79th if the exit for 76th st is open. The walk from Bay Parkway on the N is ~9 minutes, 71st is ~15-20 minutes, and 79th is ~10-15 minutes.
If you look at the riders on the W, most of them are chinese. Could this be because the W goes over the bridge and gets them to Canal faster? I'd bet that if the W went through Montague, and the N had the bridge, then you'd see all the chinese people off at 36th and wait for a N.
Exactly. Who wants to ride through that damn Montague Tunnel anyway. It is a 4th Avenue local route and fit only for that rotten line that never sees the light of day. The Sea Beach belongs on the bridge.
It was great on the WILLY b FOR A SHORT WHILE
It was great on the WILLY b FOR A SHORT WHILE Fred you have to realize it the Sea Beach Express is history, gone just like the Dodgers, into Brooklyn History
R142----Right on the button my friend. Nice going. I couldn't have said it better myself. Now if only the TA got the message.
The T/A has given the Sea Beach Line the shaft for too long. If they wanted to they could restore it to its former status.
#3 West End Jeff
N to Nowhere
If they relayed the W at Astoria Blvd and ran just the N to Ditmars, we wouldn't have all those dealys outside the Ditmars station.
When I worked the N around 1994, officially the N terminated at 86th St. (24/7) due to switch replacement at the Neptune Ave. end of Stillwell station. After the Sea Beach switches were replaced, (A & B pockets or tracks 1 & 2), the B trains used the Sea Beach pockets. However due to other GO's, from 10AM to 3 PM Monday to Friday and Sat/Sun for a longer period of time, the N was actually extended to Stillwell since one way it went regular and the other way it went over the B line due to overpass replacement on the N line. Same thing this weekend, coincidentally it happened jsut when the 86th St. termination started. If this weekends' "one way Sea Beach and one way West End" GO was canceled for any reason at the last minute (which never happened) then the N would have terminated at 86th St. The 86th St. termination is more like a new service plan (a GO # is assigned) and all other GO's (like the one this weekend only) works off the main GO (86th St. termination)
It allows for flexibility. With the N terminating at 86th St. for the next few years and track 2 being hooked up to the Brighton line, when needed the Q could terminate on the N tracks when the Q tracks/structure are being replaced and when that is accomplished, the W could utilize the N tracks when their tracks/structure are being replaced.
Didn't they rehabilitate part of the station a few years back? The N was cut back to 86th St. then.
Structural work and switch replacement at the Neptune Ave. end was the reason for the cutback to 86th St. a few years back.
I see. Will it be retained or torn out during the current rehab?
A big thank you to all of the SubTalkers who helped me nail down
the correct Chinese characters which used to emblazen the station
signs there. You will find a beautiful new Canal St. shirt (in
red or black) at the NY Transit Museum at GCT. So far, they have it
only in adult sizes, with kids and Juniors sizes coming soon.
I will also have these shirts up on my web site nycsubwayline.com
within a couple of weeks.
Couldn't have done it without your help as all traces of the original
signs had disappeared!
Don't they have Chinese characters on the signs at the Canal-Centre (J/M) station?
wayne
At least on the Northbound side, which I went through last week,
there were still there. But subway grrl meant the old signs on the
Broadway bridge and tunnel platforms. They only had signs meaning
"Chinatown" as opposed to the Nassau platform which both has
"Chinatown" and "Canal St." signs in Chinese.
BTW, Subway grrl, the London exhibit seems to go on for a while,
so I will see it and your "Canal" shirts as well.
Dear Wado and Wayne,
You guys helped me know which of the sets of characters was what I
was looking for. We opted to do this sign in black like the newer
ones, but I would love to revisit the concept with a white sign
with black letters, as some have said were the original ones in
that station.
Use red letters. Red is the color of luck and prosperity in Chineese.
Would you wear a shirt with red letters? I'm chinese and don't wear any red... hm... maybe that's why my luck's so bad... if it's red on black, it might be quite nice...
Yeah, I think it's nice that way, and in the reverse as well.
Let me know what you think when you see them. Your luck could
change!!
I think I got a picture of the one on the soon-to-be-closed northbound side.
Steve,
Is this the one with two sets of characters on the sign in the
middle of the platform?
IIRC the sign I spotted was near the southern/western end of the platform.
Just wondering subway grrl, do you own the company that makes the shirts? Can we get any discounts ;)? Any plans on making an M shirt?
Hi!
Yes, I own this company. As soon as I work out my true costs for shipping
off the web, I'll know if I can afford discounts for SubTalkers.
For now, I am anxiously awaiting the time when my ink will be black
instead of red!
This owning a company stuff can suck you dry.
I love the concept though!
Over theweek end is saw new expanded massage the these cars. For Exp. F train "1) to 179st/Jamica 2) Via 53 Street 3) Manhaton Local 4) Queens Blvd Exp.
I saw a new printed list of codes in the R46 I had today on the "R" train. There are new sign readouts for the "R", "G", "E" and "V". All of then are like to putting the "Via" the "Loc./Exp." Parts. The "G" train has a code for when it goes from 71st to Church Ave on the Weekend.
The sign read G Train "1)to Church Ave 2)Via Crosstown 3)Queens Blvd Local 4) Brooklyn Local. and there one for going back as well like this.
Robert
I noticed that some trains had the new readouts mixed with the old readouts. One train even had the right (west) half of some cars going to BAY RIDGE-95 ST (or was it 95 ST-BAY RIDGE?) with the left (east) half going to 59 ST-BKLYN.
I also saw one R train with all the side sign lights out. The train was in service and all other lights were on.
When side signs are off on R-44 and R-46, it means the car's air ventalation system is turned off. For some reason the two systems are joined.
I can't fathom why the two would be joined, but IIRC this was around Cortlandt or Rector, so perhaps the crew turned off the ventilation system temporarily to keep a certain unpleasant aroma out.
Another mystery like why we don't let customers ride on yard tracks. Just like that answer, this one won't satisfy you either:
In 1990, the R-44/R-46 overhaul contract did not include the electronic side signs. The signs were negotiated after the overhaul began (this despite 10 R-46s already had the systemon test before the overhaul). When the signs were added, in order to control them from any cab (on-off function), they were piggy-backed onto the train-line relay that controlled the HVAC function. They could not use the TLR for the lights because there are times when the lights are off and the signs are still needed such as when the F train is on the McDonald Ave. part of the line. Bottom line, it was to save the expense of adding another Trainline relay to each car.
I'm afraid this answer does, in fact, satisfy me. Thank you.
I'm still curious how riding on a train that is going through the yard anyway is akin to walking the tracks.
"I'm still curious how riding on a train that is going through the yard anyway is akin to walking the tracks."
I'm going to take one more crack at this. TA personnel are trained in track safety. Although it should become 2nd nature, the office of System Safety requires a track safety refresher course every three years. This is because we tend to become complacent and develope bad habits.
The TA policy is that in revenue service, certain safety devices are mandatory including trip cocks and proper signal protection. In the yards, not all tracks have signals with stop arms - hence no protection. While TA workers assume a certain level of risk in the performance of their duties, the general public does not. Therefore, despite the fact that you may not view operating a train without signal/air brake protection as unsafe, there is a level of safety that is not provided in the yards that is provided on main line, revenue service tracks. The increased danger may be negligable but there is an increased danger.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also took an interesting Black and White picture of a Sign read-out I have never seen before going on a downtown F train the sign read as follows
to Coney Island
via 63rd street
Culver Exp
I've noticed that the R-68s and R-68As got new rollsigns before the Manhattan Bridge changeover; Norwood-205th Street, Harlem-145th Street, Herald Square-34th Street, and Lower East Side-2nd Ave./Houston St. are some of the new variations on the rolls. It seems that the the TA is putting more emphasis on neighborhood names for terminal stations.
For many years the D was signed for "205th-Concourse." It is on the Concourse line, but the station is actually at Bainbridge Avenue.
I remember hearing that a northbound 5 train left East 180 and left for Morris Park via track 22 of Unionport.
Thanks for the response, but I'm afraid you answered a question I didn't ask.
Of course there are greater risks in running a train through a yard than running on mainline tracks -- I never denied it. However, the danger of riding through a yard differs in (at least) two ways from the danger of walking the tracks. First, each individual on the tracks yields additional risk, while an empty train is at no less risk than a full one (although, of course, the risk extends to all on the train). Second, walking the tracks requires special training to be done safely (even here, although most of us know not to step on the third rail, most of us have no idea how to alert passing T/O's of our presence); riding on a train through a yard requires no training beyond that necessary to ride a train anywhere else (the T/O, of course, needs special training, but in this scenario the T/O already has that special training; the question is whether to permit passengers).
That said, the safety issue still exists. However, a safety issue also exists in funneling an entire (largely confused, mostly annoyed, some not in excellent physical shape) trainload out of a single exit to the street, one that happens to be a significant vertical and horizontal distance from the platform. A safety issue exists in loading that trainload onto buses. A safety issue exists on the bus ride itself -- few of the subway's safety features exist on buses. A safety issue exists in unloading the bus. A safety issue exists in bringing the busloads into the station. These safety issues need to be weighed against the safety issues of the alternative plan.
My impression, from your posts and others', is that this was not done. Passengers are simply not permitted to ride through yards, period, and that's that. The question of whether the alternative arrangements might put them at even greater risk is simply not considered.
I haven't done a thorough analysis, but I suspect that the passengers were put through greater risk than necessary by herding them onto buses. If someone in the TA did a thorough analysis and concluded otherwise, I'll accept that. But as you said yourself, passengers are simply not allowed in yards, so why bother with the analysis?
(Incidentally, the small risk assumed by passengers riding through yards could be reduced if the T/O simply emptied out the lead car before entering the yard. The second and third cars would be crowded, but no more than the shuttle buses were.)
Hmmm, I wonder if this is the real reason the N was cut back. Will the W be next?
You are absolutely correct. I was in error.
The real safety issue is the safety of the transit agency from
being sued.
Look, we have enough trouble with passengers getting injured
because of collisions on the mainline. Now, suppose you take
trains through a yard track that does not have stop arms and
the m/m runs the ball and either derails or hits another train.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the MTA willfully, knowlingly
and negligently allowed passengers to ride through an area which
was not up to passenger safety standards. These poor passengers
were not even given any warning of the danger they faced."
Are shuttle buses up to passenger subway safety standards? Of course not -- they're buses. Why is it deemed okay to subject subway riders to substandard safety standards on buses but not in yards?
Don't think logically. Put yourself into the mindset of
an ambulance-chasing lawyer. In general the fatality rate
for rail transportation is probably lower than for bus,
but that is heavily skewed by over-the-highway buses which tend
to skid off embankments and such. In NYC, I can't remember the
last time a transit bus passenger was killed in a collision.
Regardless, when the passenger steps on to the bus, he or she
is entering a known risk environment. It's not as if the bus
is less safe than an ordinary bus just because it is a shuttle.
But, the passenger being diverted through yard trackage is not
informed of the risk. An important safety device has been disabled
without the passenger's knowledge.
And remember also that lawyers who can't keep up with the ambulance are usually financed by their partners in the firm to run FOR OFFICE! And really bad lawyers who at least have a friend in office and have a firm that will do anything to keep them away from the bench will often intervene to get them a job as "counsel" at a political agency.
THESE are the lawyers who make the rules ... been there, seen it again and again and again and again ... remember also that in political subdivisions (MTA and its subdivisions are what is called a "political subdivision" as a quasi-public agency. Gravitation is suspended and rocks float. I love how people try to seek logic in many such decisions and even more amusing is subjugates OF the agencies trying to make it fit somehow. Rocks float. That's all ya need to know. :)
Here's my guess: departments. The Department of Subways doesn't want to be sued over an incident in the yard. But if the DoS forces all the passengers into buses, then, even if the risk is greater, now it falls into the DoB's hands, and the DoB takes these risks all the time.
I don't have the statistics, but I do know that, in the 60's or 70's, my grandmother was knocked to the ground by a turning bus. She wasn't on the bus itself, but every additional bus on the streets increases the risk of hitting random passers by.
The greater risk, I suspect, is in the emptying of the station, which is not designed to accomodate 1000 people all exiting at once, all through a single street exit. There was no attempt at crowd control. And as for putting passengers at risk without warning them, there was no warning to the frail that they were in for a real hike just to get to the street -- nor do I consider it much of a warning that they're told that if they want to go any further, they're going to have to assume greater risk. But if a simple warning is all you're after, an announcement over the PA should suffice. (Those passengers who ignore announcements apparently don't care. It probably would be a good idea to test the PA system in each car at the beginning of the run, though.)
Really, if T/O's were told in advance that they were not to exceed (say) 10 mph in the yard while carrying passengers, and all passengers were chased out of the lead car before entering the yard, how severe could any potential incident be? (Yes, it would still be faster than the bus, and more importantly, most passengers would be able to stay in their seats the whole way.)
Does this come under the heading of "GIVE IT A FRIGGING REST ALREADY", yet?
Ignore the thread if it doesn't interest you. I asked you a question and you answered it. Now I'm discussing the issue with others.
My suggestion, for what it's worth:
Since none of the people on this board (at least none I know of) are in a policy-making position for NYC Transit, and this is clearly a question about NYCT policy, maybe a letter to NYC Transit asking for the reasons behind this policy is in order.
David
Clearly, I need not ignore the thread - just one person who cannot accept fact because his mind is made up.
You?
Hi
I am sure this has been posted,,,Does anyone have a full readout of the ALL the latest signs
I will pay for this info,,,postage--etc
Steve
FDNY
Don't shoot the messenger. I don't have anything to do with
making these decisions. If it were up to me, I'd say "the heck
with it, just run the trains". In fact, this policy is fairly
recent. I recall a weekend G/O on the queens IND about 15 years
ago where trains were being regularly re-routed through
Jamaica yard loop.
Just evacuating the first car doesn't entirely remove the risk
though. The train could still get rear-ended or sideswiped.
Oh, no, I'm not shooting! Just discussing. Believe it or not, I appreciate your input.
Nothing removes the risk entirely. Not even funneling everyone into buses.
That track they used then is gone from the loop. You can see it to your left by the car wash as you go back out of the current loop.
It's a shame it's all concrete. They use it for G layups.
>>> Really, if T/O's were told in advance that they were not to exceed (say) 10 mph in the yard while carrying passengers, and all passengers were chased out of the lead car before entering the yard, how severe could any potential incident be? (Yes, it would still be faster than the bus, and more importantly, most passengers would be able to stay in their seats the whole way.) <<<
David;
Didn't you read Jeff's explanation of why passengers are not carried through yards? It is not a question of whether it is safer to carry them through a yard on a train or transfer them to a shuttle bus. It does not matter. The TA is not going to carry passengers on tracks that are not rated for carrying passengers. It is a liability issue decided by the legal department, not a safety issue. Therefore it is completely immaterial whether it would be safer to stay on the train through a yard or use shuttle buses.
Tom.
Is it reasonable to assume that liability is based largely on degree of safety?
Then why does the legal department summarily forbid one practice over liability concerns while permitting less safe practices?
Anybody got a saddle?
>>> Is it reasonable to assume that liability is based largely on degree of safety? <<<
No! Liability is more likely to be found if management ignores its own standards of what tracks are suitable to carry passengers. This is based on the idea that it is foreseeable that something might go wrong if trains are operated on tracks not up to the standards required for carrying revenue passengers. On the other hand, when using shuttle buses, the TA is using the proven technology of transit bus operation on city streets. In court, once the specter of ignoring a known danger is raised, the sky is the limit for damages, and in some cases criminal charges could be leveled.
Like many things in life, it is simpler to prohibit passengers on non revenue tracks at all times than to make an extensive study of whether it is safer to haul the passengers over a given portion of non revenue track rather than provide a shuttle for them each time a GO for repair is proposed which could be detoured around on non revenue tracks.
Tom
Fair point. (But it seems like the trampling concern was simply ignored.)
The TA is not going to carry passengers on tracks that are not rated for carrying passengers.
In this particular case there is a further item to obfuscate the issue. Some tracks in this particular yard were retrofitted to carry and did carry passengers in regular service. :-)
I didn't catch the start of the thread. If we're talking about
Jamaica Yard, then yes, the yard leads from Continental Avenue
were once considered mainline trackage because they were used
for World's Fair service. But, that was 60 years ago.
An important safety device has been disabled without the passenger's knowledge.
Just how "important" is this safety device. I'd estimate there is a rear end collision about once every 4 years on mainline track with this safety device in place. Is the incidence for rear enders that much more frequent in the yards?
I have seen some minor collisions in yards, once about 30 years ago at Concourse yard when a single R-9 car ran into a line of parked R-9's on a layup track. The operator must not have been paying much attention to how fast he was going. The cars looked none the worse for it, and I saw this from the platform of the southbound 4 line at Bedford Park Blvd. station.
Once, a few years ago, I was on a train that was full of passengers on the F-line, and because of a delay at Union Turnpike station ( I think someone jumped in front of a train durin the AM rush hour in a suicide attempt ), the train was diverted through the yard in Jamaica. The passengers were busy gawking at the equipment parked on the tracks, and all was quiet, and we went back to the regular route without incident. I guess that re-route was necessary because of an unplanned incident, not for a scheduled track repair.
I'm quite sure that the move you describe has not been allowed or made in many, many years for the reasons I have stated. I'm also quite sure that it wouldn't be done today under the same circumstances.
When did they change the message signs? And when does the G Train go to Church Avenue?
- Lyle Goldman
This probably dated to after the WTC disaster, from what I could tell.
They apparently started changing the signs last week since I noticed it first on Friday. Not all the cars have been changed yet. Is guess it's just a matter of changing a computer chip. The G is scheduled to terminate at Church Av only on Saturdays (don't ask why?) staring 12/15.
The G will go the Church Ave on the hole weekend. not just on Saturday. I have also had two R46 with new programing done to them. The "R" sign now read 1) 95st/Bay Ridge 2) Via Broadway Local 3) 4th Ave local. And 1) 71st 2)Via Broadway Local 3) Queens Bvl. Local.
I am not 100% shore if the is right word for word, but you can get a Idear about the sign. I know that they now can flip 4 time thought a set.
Robert
Although the new readings are easier on the eye, I'm not thrilled that they take longer to cycle. I can picture myself running up to the platform at Rockaway and having to pass up an A train since the display now takes too long to get around to the one piece of information I need, the destination.
Are the displays on the R-142's being adjusted as well? In particular, will the 2 finally stop declaring itself an express when it's making all local stops?
They must figure the current service pattern for the 2 is temporary, even if "temporary" in this case means 2-3 years. IMHO they should change the readout to "7th Ave. Local" until that damaged section of tunnel is rebuilt. I can see Mr. Bill now: "Define 'temporary'".
It reminds me of the side route signs on the R-1/9s for the E: "E-8th Ave. Express". My feeling was, 8th Ave. Express, my ass.
If it's temporary, why were all the signs at my local station replaced last week?
I thought one of the advantages to electronic signs was flexibility. The 2 doesn't have to be hardcoded as local or express -- since the train can be put into local mode or express mode (which determines whether local stops are announced), shouldn't the displays and announcements call any train an express if it's in express mode and a local if it's in local mode?
Even when the 2 ran express, it still ran local at night -- but signs and announcements referred to it as an express. The problem is not new.
Why does the TA find it easier to change station signage than R-142 signage and announcements?
Mr.Greenburger:
Dont worry im sure the "minor" changes will be adjusted. Remember I posted here that there was a memo out stating that the transfer changes due to Manny B would not be installed into the computers until late fall when the V train come out. Now the V train date has been pushed back. Dont worry it'll happen, it just not happening at your pace. I know as a C/R it is sometimes irritating to hear: "This is a Bklyn bound 2 express train, the next stop is 86th Street." But they will change and when they do, Im sure the side signs will be change to 7Av local.
PS get off at 72St(Uptown side) Look at the signs there. Ill give you something else to vent about in the meantime....
Am I wrong to believe that changing the transfer information is a much more involved process than it needs to be? I don't see why it should take more than 15 minutes. Apparently it takes so long that it was deemed preferable to confuse the passengers from July until November (and now December). Either that or the TA simply doesn't care about confusing the passengers -- but why, then, the fancy shmancy new equipment that makes crystal clear (if sometimes boring and inaccurate) announcements? (Yes, I know that C/R's are supposed to override the automated announcements at the relevant transfer points. I'm sure you do, but I've never been on your train. The one time I heard an announcement overridden, it was replaced with nothing more than a ping, and the C/R had been playing with the PA button for the entire ride, pinging out announcements left and right. Incidentally, if my count is correct, the announcements should be overridden at five stations on the 2 and at four stations on the 6.)
The express vs. local issue should have never come up. As you know, the 2 has run local at night since before the R-142's were introduced. The 2 should not be hardcoded as a local or an express; it should simply declare its status based on the station program in effect. This does confuse people; I've helped out many myself (and I'm sure you've helped many more).
I've seen the signs at 72nd. Let's see how long they last. Are they new signs or just overlays? At 86th we got brand new platform signs. Some of the new signs at 42nd were placed directly behind the brand new (not-yet-functional) light boxes.
You are right about the express vs local thing on the midnites. That was a big mistake. The platform signs change havent made it way to 14St(downtown side). Also 96St(uptown xpress). AFAIK, the 2 stops on both the local and express at 96St.
The 2 is only supposed to stop on the local track at 96th, since all switches are north of the station. In practice, many 2's run express. (I will be posting about messed up 2 and 3 service soon. For a change, I have no complaints about the 1.)
If anyone has these readings, It would be appreciated if they were put on a web site somewhere, then like that site here.
If anyone has these readings, It would be appreciated if they were put on a web site somewhere, then like that site here.
I think there are well over 1,000 of them.
...which still didn't include E to Canal St.
I've never liked those signs. They're hard to read, and ugly to boot.
:-) Andrew
Well, check out BusMan2000's site containing the NYCT bus sign readings. If he can do it for buses, it can be done for subways.
He, for the most part, already has.
Also, I was on a downtown "R" R-46 at 1:45 P.M., leaving Union Square, and noticed that the LCD signs said:
R Broadway Lcl
Bay Ridge
95th St.
I would assume they're reprogramming these systems to appear similiar to the newer roll signs that have been installed in (almost) all of the R-68 & 68-Alphas---and, IMHO, the appearance of this new programming does seem to be a bit more pleasant to read than the signs pre-9/11.
Stuart, RLine86Man
"He, for the most part, already has."
Where?
STILL NO E TO CANAL STREET SIGNS? WHAT MORONS COMMISSIONED THESE NEW READOUTS?
- Lyle Goldman
They're nor morons. They just didn't know there would be no World Trade Center as it was known before 9/11.
If the system was designed more like the Washington, DC buses, this problem would have been easier to solve.
But they changed the signs after 9/11!
- Lyle Goldman
They are putting Queens reading sheets with tht new codes in the cabs, and there is an E to Canal St.
It seems alot of the new codes are above 1100, so I don't know whether these are additions to the others or redoing of the whole thing.
That's good. I guess they're not as stupid as I thought.
- Lyle Goldman
Uh....(AHHEM!) I should clarify that it is the old LCD readings on the R44 and R46, the ones currently in wide use, that I refer to as not having E to Canal St on them. I actually don't know about the new ones.
Sorry about the confusion.
:>o Andrew
Well... in early 2000 Fdny posted the readings, THese are not in the posted order and they are not the new displays, but here they are
A
A TO 207 ST/MANHTN 8 AV EXPRESS
A TO 207 ST /MANHTN 8 AV LOCAL
A TO 168 ST/MANHTN 8 AV EXPRESS
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV /FULTON EXP
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV EXPRESS FULTON ST LOCAL
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV /FULTON LCL
A TO LEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV /FULTON EXP
A TO LEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV EXPRESS FULTON ST LOCAL
A TOLEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV/FULTON LCL
A TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA 6 AV BRIGHTON EXP
A TO CONEY ISLAND VIA 6 AV BRIGHTON LOCAL
B
B TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL
B BWAY - LAFAYETTE
B to 168 st /manhtn 6 av express cent pk w.local
B TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV EXPRESS
B TO 36 /BKLYN SHUTTLE
B TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV EXPRESS WEST END EXP
B TO CONEY ISLAND
B TO DITMARS BLVD VIA BROADWAY
B QUEENSBORO PL Z VIA BROADWAY
B TO BRIGHTON BCH 6 AV LINE VIA BRIGHTON
B TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA BROADWAY VIA BRIGHTON
B TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV LINE VIA BRIGHTON
B TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV VIA CULVER
B to 57 st/ 7 Av via Broadway
B to 57 st/7 Av Shuttle
C
C TO BEDFORD PARK 8 AV LOCAL
C TO 145 ST /MANHTN 8 AV LOCAL
C TO ROCKAWAY PK 8 AV /FULTON LCL
C TO EUCLID AV 8 AV /.FULTON LCL
C WORLD TRADE CTR 8 AV LOCAL
D
D TO 205 ST /BRONX 6 AV EXPRESS CONCOURSE EXP
D TO 205 ST/BRONX 6 AV EXPRESS CONCOURSE LOCAL
D TO BEDFORD PARK 6 AV EXPRESS CONCOURSE LOCAL
D TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV EXPRESS CONCOURSE LOCAL
D TO DITMARS LVD VIA BROADWAY
D QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
D to 57 st/7 Av via Broadway
E
E JAMAICA CENTER QUEENS LOCAL
E WORLD TRADE CTR 8 AV LOCAL
E JAMAICA CENTER QUEENS EXPRESSS
E JAMAICA CENTER VIA 6 AV
E JAMAICA CENTER
E to 34 st/Bway via Broadway
E to Canal St via Broadway
E to Whitehall St via Broadway
F
F TO 179 ST ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL QUEENS LOCAL
F TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV/CULVER LOCAL
F TO 179 ST /QUEENS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
F TO 179 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL QUEENS EXPRESS
F TO 47-50 /6 AV 6 AV LOCAL
F JAMIACA CENTER QUEENS EXPRESS
F JAMAICA CENTER QUEENS LOCAL
F JAMAICA CENTER VIA 8 AV
G
G JAMAICA CENTER CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO SMITH -9 STS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO CHIRCH ST CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO COURT SQUARE CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO QUEENS PLAZA CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G 71/CONTINENTAL CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G HOYT - SCHERMERHN CROSSTOWN LOCAL
H
H TO EUCLID AV VIA FAR ROCKAWAY
H TO BROAD CHANNEL SHUTTLE
H TO EUCLID AV SHUTTLE
H TO FAR ROCKAWAY VIA ROCKAWAY PK
H TO ROCKAWAY PK
NO H-M
N
N TO DITMARS BLVD BROADWAY EXP
N TO DITMARS BLVD 4 AV EXPRESS BROADWAY LOCAL
N TO DITMARS BLVD 4 AV LOCAL BROADWAY EXP
N TO DITMARS BLVD BROADWAY LOCAL
N TO KINGS HIGHWY BROADWAY EXP SEA BEACH EXP
N TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY EXP SEA BEACH LOCAL
N TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LOCAL SEA BEACH EXP
N TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LOCAL SEA BEACH LOCAL
N TO KINGS HIGHWY BROADWAY LOCAL SEA BEACH LOCAL
N JAMAIA ENTER BROADWAY EXP
N JAMAICA CENTER VIA 6 AV
N JAMAICA CENTER VIA BROADWAY
N TO DITMARS VLD BROADWAY LOCAL VIA BRIDGE
N TO DITMARS BLVD
N QUEENS BORO PLZ
N QUEENSBORO PLZ BROADWAY EXP
N QUEENSBORO PLZ BROADWAY LOCAL
N to lex Av/60 st
N to 57 st/7 Av Broadway Exp
N to 57 st / 7 Av 4 Av Express Broadway Local
N to 57 St/7 Av 4 Av Local Broadway Exp
N to 57 st / 7 Av Broadway Local
Q
Q BWAY -LAFAYETTE
Q TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL
Q TO BRIGHTON BCH 6 AV EXPRESS BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV EXPRESS
Q TO DITMARS BLVD VIA BROADWAY
Q QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
Q TO DITMARS BLVD VIA BROADWAY
Q QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
Q to Atlantic Av
Q to Prospect pk
Q to Brighton Bch 6 Av Express Brighton Local
Q to Brighton Bch via Broadway Brighton Exp
Q to Brighton Bch via Broadway Brighton Local
Q to Coney Island 6 Av Express Brighton Exp
Q to COney Island 6 Av Express Brighton Local
Q to Coney Island via Broadway Brighton Exp
Q to Coney Island via Broadway Brighton Local
R
R TO 36 ST /BKLYN SHUTTLE
R TO 179 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
R TO 95 ST /BKLYN
R TO 179 ST /QUEENS BROADWAY LOCAL
R JAMIACA CENTER BROADWAY LOCAL
R JAMAICA CENTER VIA 6 AV
R 71/CONTINENTAL BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO DITMARS BLVD BROADWAY LOCAL
R QUEENSBORO PLZ BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO 95 ST/BKLYN BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO WHITEHALL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO CANAL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO 34 ST/6 A VIA 6 AV
S
S to Atlantic Av Shuttle
S to Prospect Pk Shuttle
S to Kings Highwy Shuttle
S to Brighton Bch Shuttle
S to W 8 St / Bklyn Shuttle
S to Coney Island Shuttle
S TO FRANKLIN AV
S TO PROSPECT PK
S JAMAICA CENTER SHUTTLE
S TO UNION TPKE SHUTTLE
S TO DITMARS BLVD
S QUEENSBORO PLZ SHUTTLE
T
T TO DITMARS BLVD VIA BROADWAY
T QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
T TO 57 ST/ 7 AV VIA BROADWAY
T TO ESSEX /DELANCEY VIA NASSAU ST
T TO CHAMBERS ST VIA NASSAU ST
T TO BAY PARKWAY WEST END LINE
T TO CONEY ISLAND WEST END LINE
T TO 21 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
T TO 21 ST/QUEENS VIA BROADWAY
T TO 57 ST/6 AV VIA 6 AV
T TO 207 ST/MANHTN VIA 6 AV
T TO 168 ST /MANHATN VIA 6 AV
T TO DITMARS VLD VIA BROADWAY
T QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
V
V TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA 6 AV BRIGHTON EXP
V TO CONEY ISLAND VIA 6 AV BRIGHTON LOCAL
V Jamaica Center via 6 Av
V TO 2 AV/MANHTN 6 AV LOCAL
V TO SMITH - 9 ST 6 AV LOCAL
V TO CHURCH AV 6 AV/ULVER LOCAL
V TO CHURCH AV 6 AV LOCAL CULVER EXPRESS
V TO KINGS HIGHWAY 6 AV CULVER LCL
V TO KINGS HIGHTWAY 6 AV LOCAL CULVER EXPRESS
V TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV/CULVER LCL
V TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV LOCAL CULVER EXPRESSS
V TO 179 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
V 71 /CONTINENTAL VIA 6 AV
V TO 34 ST/ 6 AV VIA 6 A
V TO WEST 4 ST VIA 6 AV
V BWAY -LAFAYETTE VIA 6 AV
V TO GRAND ST VIA 6 AV
V TO 21 ST /QUEENS 6 AV LINE
V TO 57 ST/6 AV 6 AV LINE
V TO 145 ST/MANHTN 6 AV LINE
V 59 ST /COL CIRC 6 AV LINE
V WORLD TRADE CTR 6 AV LINE
v to Brighton Bch via 6 Av Brighton Exp
V to Coney Island via 6 Av Brighton Local
V JAMIACA CENTER VIA 6 AV
V 6 AV
W
W Jamiaca center via BROADWAY
W TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA BROADWAY BRIGHTON EXP
W TO CONEY ISLAND VIA BROADWAY BRIGHTON LOCAL
W TO 57 ST/7 AV
W TO 34 ST /BWAY
W TO CANAL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
W TO ITY HALL BROADWAY LOCAL
W TO WHITEHALL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
W TO 179 ST /QUEENS VIA BROADWAY
W 71/CONTINTAL VIA BROADWAY
W TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LINE VIA SEA BEACH
W TO BAY PARKWAY BROADWAY LINE VIA WEST END
W TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LINE VIA WEST END
W TI 95 ST/BKLYN VIA BROADWAY 4 AV LOCAL
W TO 2 ST /QUEENS BROADWAY
W BROADWAY
W to Brighton Bch via Broadway Birghton Exp
W to Coney Island Via Broadway Brighton Local
W JAMAICA CENTER VIA BROADWAY
X
X TO 21 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
X WORLD TRADE CTR VIA 6 AV
WALK THRU TRAIN
EXPRESS
LOCAL
SKIP-STOP
LONG ISLAND RR
METRO - NORTH RR
NYCTA
SPECIAL
SHUTTLE
LISTEN FOR ANNOUNCEMENT
NOT IN SERVICE
LAST STOP
TO KINGS HIGHWAY 6 AV/CULVER LCL
JAMAICA CENTER
SUTPHIN / ARCHER
JAMAICA /VN WYCK
TO DITMARS BLVD
TO ASTORIA BLVD
TO 30 AV/QUEENS
TO BROADWAY /QNS
TO 36 AV/QUEENS
TO 39 AV/QUEENS
QUEENSBORO PLZ
to Dekalb Av
to Atlantic Av
to 7 Av /Bklyn Brighton Line
to Prospect Pk
to Parkside Av
to Church Av Brighton Line
to Beverly Rd
Page 7
to Cortelyou Rd
to Newkirk Av
to Avenue H
to Avenue J
to Avenue M
to Kings Highway Brighton Line
to Avenue U Brighton Line
to Neck Road
to Sheepshead ( This is the exact reading)
to Brighton Bch
to Ocean Pkwy
to w 8 st/Bkln Brighton Line
to W 8 st/Bklyn
to Coney ISland Brighton Line
to Coney Island
(My longest post ever)
THough the material is from FDNY
This was in no way created by me
though poorly formatted !)
Actually there are quite a few new readouts. I have seen the R and F get changed ones. like R usually would say R 71/CONTINENTAL, R BROADWAY LOCAL. The other day i saw R FOREST HILLS, R 71 AV, R BROADWAY LCL. The F currently is F 6AV/CULVER LCL, F CONEY ISLAND OR F 6AV CULVER LCL, F KINGS HWY. now the F says F 6AV LOCAL, F CULVER LCL, F CONEY ISLAND. I wonder will they change any other programmed codes??
Here's one I saw today.
F 6 AV/63 ST LCL
F QUEENS BL LCL
F JAMAICA/179 ST
Here's one I saw yesterday.
F 6 AV LCL
F CULVER LCL
Fto CONEY ISLAND
One major drawback, though: If the bus signs are any indication, then by the time four or five lines of information have been displayed, the doors are closed and the train is leaving!
i think is up @ 207street.i think i saw it last night.with the lcd and everything.
r142man
Check the car numbers to be sure what it is! From a distance the R110A and the R142 will look virtually the same.
The R110A are still at Piken Yard as of last week. I was there last Monday and I will be there tommorw.
Robert
I hope that is the 110A. I remember it on display at the Transit Museum when that and the 110B were introduced to the public. I also rode them back in 1996. I love the interior, and I'll never forget it if it never runs again.
has anyone have one for sale.i just wanted to know.
r142man
I don't know if there are commercial ones out there.
My friend in Colorado and I are working on one. We have nearly completed 2 undercarriages (chassis, trucks) and are working on the carbodies. There will be one power unit and four trailers to each 5-car set. The cars will have detailed interiors with interior lighting. We don't yet have a timetable for completion.
How about the R-143 and R-68, are you or know someone else who will be making it.
I'm sorry; I don't know.
well when you finish at least on can you tell me @ b52bomber1@ignamail.com
Sure. This project will probably take a year, though, at least...
okay.great
I was doing my laundry in Great Neck and there was a construction order in effect with only the W/B track open. So E/B trains had to use the W/B track. The 4:57pm train to Penn didn't show until 5:25pm. It was waiting on a siding just east of the Great Neck RR station, since around 5pm. It had to wait for the Port Washington train to come in first, which didn't until 5:20pm. It was announced that the "Eastbound train to Port Washington is running 20 minutes late (we regret any inconvenience this may have caused you)". I don't know why they couldn't have let the Penn bound train go first, but I guess there was only one track back to Woodside. I feel sorry for those folks stuck on the W/B train waiting to get into Great Neck, I've never sat on a stuck train for 30 minutes, well...not yet.
That's the interesting thing about doing laundry in Great Neck I can watch the LIRR. The N20/21 buses were fine today. Usually it's the buses that are screwed up and trains keep coming. Things finally went good for a change (for me anyway). Also someone mentioned an Acela fire/derailment on the nycrail message board but there was an error and I couldn't read it. Any info on that?
And finally a big WELCOME BACK to Dave and everyone else here on Subtalk.
20 minutes sucks. There's only a few interlockings on the line, at Shea, at bayside, and Great Neck. So there's not much that can be done.
What's the track worlk anyway? Finally digging out the mud around the tracks at Douglaston? :)
Perhaps not transit related but I have to ask; Why do you take your laundry to Great Neck? Your BVDs need a change of scenery?
Umm, because there's NO laundry in Sea Cliff. Nearest laundromat is a 15 minute walk, and it is DIRTY and the washers skimp on water and the dryers are horrible. Nearest laundromat on N21 bus...GREAT NECK.
I'm much closer to N21 than N27, N21 don't go by any laundries in Glen Cove. That's more than you'll ever want to know about the perks of living in Sea Cliff. Someday I'll actually live in a place for people who have to do laundry, eat, work, and go shopping. For now I just dream! :-o
Don't most people on long island do do laundry in thier own homess???
ALOT BUT Not much people do laundry at home. Some people that live in Apt Buildings(LIKE ME!) have a laundry room (That's in my buliding!).
Besides, how many buildings allow people to have washers and dryers in their apartments?
Ummm.....
Gee, there's one on Glen Cove Ave right by the CVS / 7-11. Oh yeah, another (presumeably the dirty one?) right by the intersection of Glen Cove Ave and Sea Cliff Ave. Oh yeah, and there's one in Glen Cove behind the CVS right by the church. Oh yeah, and one on Glen Cove Ave on "the hill", right in that dump by the traffic light 1/2 way down (the other dirty one?). Oh hell, there's gotta be another 2 or 3 I'm missing here, and I don't even live in that part of town (I'm by the Lilco plant)
Face it, you used laundry as a cheap excuse to go to Great Neck and watch trains ;)
Face it, you used laundry as a cheap excuse to go to Great Neck and watch trains...
Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.
The one by CVS is the dirty one. The washers skimp on water, so the clothes don't get clean. The other one you're talking about (Sea-Glen) is just as bad. The one at the top of the hill on GC ave is across from the projects. There are good laundries in Glen Cove, but I'd have to take 2 buses. Yeah I got one of those push cart things, but they don't let ya on the bus with those. If they would, then I'd take the N27 to Glen Cove to the luandry on Glen st. by the 24 hour CVS. But since it's a walk to the N27, can't carry it that far.
So out of these options
1)use cart and go to dirty laundry (clothes don't get clean)
2) carry a load of laundry 15 minutes to GC ave for the N27 to Glen Cove
3)A short 2 minute walk and carry laundry take N21 bus to Great Neck
Option 3 just seems the easiest. Yeah I could walk to the Glen Cove laundry on Glen st by the church but that's like a 35 minute walk. It's just easier to take the bus.
Of course if that Sea Cliff-Glen Cove trolley still existed things would be much grander. Does anybody know exactly where that trolley went? Any web sites on it?
Of course those who drive and live in Sea Cliff might think all this talk is nonsense, right? :-)
Perhaps this discussion should be moved to WashTalk, a discussion group about Long Island NorthShore self service laundries. Check out
WWW.washee_shirtee.com
:-0
I'm sure that is more than anyone needed to know about laundromats on the north shore!!!
Nearest laundromat is a 15 minute walk, and it is DIRTY and the washers skimp on water and the dryers are horrible.
I think it's time for some revenge. Pour some concrete into the washer, by the time the cycle will be over it'll be a solid block!
Let me guess, you got that one from Seinfeld? One of my favorite episodes, Kramer is the funniest of them all!
Did anybody here vote for Kenny Kramer?
He might meet a nice girl in the laundromat!
If that's his objective, he'd be better off going to Main St. on the LIRR - Might make his trifecta - a single oriental girl who can cook and starch.
LOL!!! Sorry, I had to post it.
At this point in time - the "starching" (heavy, please!) would be best! Nothing like a good "starching" in an oriental "laundromat."
Hello to all, and welcome back Dave!! I hope you had a wonderful trip, and at the same time I'm sure all subtalkers are glad to see you back :-)
I was just wondering what was up with the R143s....did the 30-day test ever begin on 10/28, or are we still waiting? -Nick
Test was put off, some mechanical problem was found...
There are three new LIRR TVMs opposite the MTA Police station on the LIRR concourse. These new TVMs utilize touch screen technology just like the Metrocard MVMs. Infact, they are very similar to the Metrocard MVMs. Same manufacturer ?
You can buy the following:
One way/round trip/weekly/10 trip/monthly/Uniticket/Getaways/Packages.
Monthly rail ticket with $30 Metrocard
Weekly rail ticjet with $15 Metrocard
Round-trip ticket with $3 Metrocard. I purchased one roundtrip ticket from Penn to Farmingdale.It is printed on a fiber type Metrocard that's good for two rides. That's right Metrocard collectors, if these user friendly machines take off, they will probably replace the current TVMs at current stations that have them. That means more variety of used Metrocards for us to collect/
The TVM takes cash, credit and debit card. If you know how to use an MVM, this TVM is just a simple.
And who knows, if it takes off and does well, maybe they will show up on Metro North replacing their TVMs. That means more combo train ticket/Metrocards for us collectors to go nuts over.
If you are in the area, check it out.
Bill "Newkirk"
Are they are Jamaica yet?
Are those NEW TVM's are at Jamaica yet? And do it cost $3 more on the ticket price to get it?
"Are those NEW TVM's are at Jamaica yet? And do it cost $3 more on the ticket price to get it?"
Jamaica? Not to knowledge. Haven't been there lately.
$3 more? I assume you're talking about the combo round trip fare/$3 Metrocard?
First off, the round trip fare is basically two one way fares on one ticket (Metrocard). Not a discount like the old days. The Metrocard has $3 encoded on it. Remember, train fare + subway fare. If these new TVMs are put in place of the current ones in Nassau and Suffolk Ctys, then a commuter will opt for a round trip train fare that has the round trip subway fare on it. A combination Metrocard with train fare ticket, a one step process so the commuter doesn't waste time at the MVM machine buying a Metrocard.
It seems these are test machines to test the public acceptance which may render the old TVMs obsolete. Now if they can improve on the NJT TVMs !
Bill "Newkirk"
Someone who rides the LIRR every day would obviously go for a monthly pass.
Someone who doesn't ride the LIRR every day and doesn't ride the subway every day but rides both (or at least the subway) with some degree of regularity would most likely buy a standard round-trip LIRR ticket and MetroCards in increments of $15. I wouldn't pay an extra 28 cents per round trip for the "convenience" of having a single card.
Oh well.......different strokes for different folks !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I mailed in a suggestion about two years ago that TVMs print tickets on Metrocards. I guess they do read their mail, eventually!
BTW: For the round-trip ticket... How can the Conductors punch without ruining it?
"BTW: For the round-trip ticket... How can the Conductors punch without ruining it?"
Well, unfortunately they are made to be ruined. The Metrocard/ticket I bought was for a round trip on the LIRR and subway. Round trip is considered two one ways, no discount like the old days. After that, it's done. I haven't used it yet, but I assume the Metrocard will be punched so the second conductor will know if the card was already punched for trip #1.
Bill "Newkirk"
So it is a "two trip" ticket, direction irrelevent? I hope so, because I rarely make round trips any more. I usually purchase "via" tickets and get my discount through there. For 50 cents extra you can go from zone 4 to zone 3, then back to zone 4 again on a different line. ie: Hempstead to West Hempstead via Jamaica, $3.25. A lot cheaper than $5.50.
"So it is a "two trip" ticket, direction irrelevent? I hope so, because I rarely make round trips any more"
As printed on this Metrocard/ticket............
"Good for two rides in either direction for three months from date of purchase. Not refundable after one year from date of purchase"
Bill "Newkirk"
Those TVMs are much better. They are easy to use with the touch technology like the Metrocard machines are. Though like the Metrocard machines, when these new ones take your dollar, they zip the dollar away like nothing......could make for some nasty papercuts for some unsuspecting soul :-)
Am I the only one here who would prefer a keypad (perhaps with changeable key legends) to a touch-screen? I'm not a gorilla.
>>> Am I the only one here who would prefer a keypad <<<
The keypad vs. a touch screen depends upon the application the machine is being used for. In any production application where an operator will be sitting in front of a computer for hours at a time, entry through a keypad is much better. The "gorilla arm" syndrome referred to in the link is because of the ergonomically incorrect position of touching a screen which is at the proper height and distance for viewing when seated. On the other hand, for a TVM or other machine in a public place, where each user will be using the machine for just a few minutes to make limited choices, the touch screen is a viable option and has the advantage of eliminating the keypad which is subject to mechanical failure from dirt and moisture.
Tom
Touch screen? Geez, those are vandalism targets! Plus th EMF and temperature swings. I'm gathering these things are *not* going to be systemwide anytime soon!!! At least not in outdoors locations!
FYI, there are also new Metro North TVMs in GCT across from track 32. From Bill's description of the LIRR TVMs, they sound pretty much the same.
Ohhh........GAWD.......I can hardly wait to go to GCT and see this !!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Channel 70 for Time Warner, dunno for elsewhere, tonight on Finders Keepers I will be on with my Metro Card collection!!!!
From #3 West End Jeff:
I'm back on Sub Talk again. Since the hiatus the N & R trains are running once again. I'm also trying out Netscape 6.1 as a web browser. It seems to be fast but I can also still use the old reliable Netscape Communicator 4.78 at the same time.
Any news on more "Redbirds" that are supposed to be dumped offshore?
#3 West End Jeff
This is for the trackworkers - when does the track grinder get called out to a particular line to work on the rails? I saw some badly beaten up tracks on the Queens bound E&F line express tracks that looked like someone with a sledgehammer took out some frustration on the rails. There is also a bad spot on the Northbound track of the F line at the 23rd street station in Manhattan. Who does the schedule for the grinding operations?
The trains beat those rails up. At 2 min a train during rush with full trains, it hurts.
I know that the rails get pounded by the traffic that they are subjected to. I just want to know when the track grinder gets called out to re-surface the rails. Does the Sperry car have to go over the tracks before the rail grinder gets to work on them?
A while back we were discussing the possibility of an ERA visit to the Kawasaki subway railcar plant in Yonkers. Obviously all was put on hold after Sept 11 - but any chance ERA can set this up?
I recognize there will be additional security precautions. And people polled at the time expressed a willingness to go even if photography were not allowed, in contrast to the 207 St yard visit.
I would love to go. How does ERA feel about it?
Count me in, photography or not. I'd definitely love to go. But who/what is ERA?
Chris
ERA (or at least the New York Division) loves the idea. Based on "Ron's" last postings on the subject of a shop tour of the Kawasaki plant, we're thinking about it.
Our tour slate for 2002 has not been settled yet. The Kawasaki plant will be in the running, though, of course, it's up to Kawasaki whether or not to allow us to have the tour.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thanks for your support. Welcome back to Subtalk, Dave.
The Electric Railroaders' Association is a railfan organization that was founded in the late 30's. It has a NY Division the meets on the third Friday on the month. Members buy, sell, trade, and talk subway, els, electric mainline, interurbans and buses.
Back to you Dave....
RE: NY Division ERA meeting
Some of you may not know this, but the ERA NY Division meeting usually held at the College of Insurance on 101 Murray St. has been affected by the September 11th attack.
While the building wasn't damaged, it was taken over by FEMA as a emergency field office of sorts. The Third Friday of the month meeting will be held at the Cooper Union at 41 Cooper Square in Manhattan. It's closest to the Astor Pl station (6) on the east side of 3rd Ave bet. 6th and 7th Sts.
Glenn Smith is putting on the show this Friday, Nov.16, 2001. It should be early next year when we return to the 101 Murray St auditorium. You know, Everytime I went there for the meeting and looked to the left before crossing the street to see one of the WTC towers, taking it for granted that it was a permanent fixture of the area. Now there'll be a empty void.
Bill "Newkirk"
So, the N train returns, and so does Subtalk. It just don't get no better! :)
Aquarium station opened 10/28/01 after a one-year shutdown. As of now the only entrance to the station is across the street from the customs house. Another new entrance will open new Quincy market from the looks of it will be ready soon. From street level to fare control the are only stairs no long escalators like their once were at the east end. After passing through fare control there is a large glass window overlooking the tracks this will provide greet photo opportunities. As of now escalators going from the fare control to the platforms run up regardless of time of day hopefully this will change. Other than the construction dust (how long do before it causes an anthrax scare) the station looks very nice the platforms are on a noticeable slope as the station is very close to the Boston harbor tunnel. As part of the big dig a section of tunnel including the part of the station that is currently open was completely rebuilt it is possible to look down the tunnel in either direction and see the old tunnel. The east part of the station not yet open is still narrow I am not sure whether it will be rebuilt wider or not. The station is bright but not too bright and has a false roof over the platform and track way. There is abstract are on the wall tiles that looks completely different from the fish pattern of the old station.
ADA elevators too, I hope?
Yes
What if the IRT, BMT and IND all were built to be compatible with each other? What kind of service do you think would be in place, if the all the lines that exist today are used? Any place where an IRT connection to an IND might be useful, etc.?
If they were the same standards, IMHO, the most likely "recapture" from the Mayor Hylan-I-hate-the-traction-interests era would have been the Broadway el north of 207th St., which would have been converted from IRT to IND division much like the Culver was switched from BMT to the IND, with the city building a ramp up from 207th St. `A' train terminal to connect with the el between 207th and 215 Sts. That would have given Van Cortlandt/Riverdale riders express service from 242nd Street instead of the local service they now have, while the 1 would have been scaled back to either 207 or Dykman St.
All the Contract 3 IRT subways are built to BMT standards and could be used for BMT/IND service right now, but they couldn't run both Division A and B without gap fillers or other platform arrangement.
How did this past GO in which Manhattan bound riders had to go to a shuttle bus if they were to travel between Van Wyck and Forest Hills?
It didn't make sense to me that trains going to Jamaica can pass and Manhattan bound trains couldn't....unless after Van Wyck the train would go to Jamaica Yard then go to Forest Hills from there.
=)
That's exactly what they did. Trains went through Jamaica Yard, around the loop, and out the other side. They should have allowed passengers to stay on the trains during this, Van Wyck Blvd station has a lot of stairs and long passageways making it very difficult on passengers going for the shuttle buses. On the plus side, when people got off the shuttle bus they all went for the express E, leaving the F local as empty as the R usually is on weekends.
[That's exactly what they did. Trains went through Jamaica Yard, around the loop, and out the other side. They should have allowed passengers to stay on the trains during this....]
Certainly Transit would have done that - and saved the expense of shuttle buses - IF it had been feasible to carry passengers through a rail yard, even non-stop.
Maybe the train operators and other SubTalkers "in the know" can offer some specifics on this issue?
BUT That would skip Union Turnpike and 75 Ave. I should say that there must be a way to get people from Union Turnpike and 75 Ave to get to the trains.
Um -- they can backtrack on a local. How do you think I got home to 86th Street this evening? I do it all the time.
Yes, those passageways went on a bit more than I had anticipated. Then the bus got stuck in a traffic jam in the Queens Boulevard service road. (Why couldn't it use the main road?) It would have been faster to walk from Union Turnpike.
I don't understand why passengers had to get off. Train Dude equated the danger of riding through a yard with the danger of walking the tracks, but I'm afraid I can't imagine how that's the case.
Who decided to run the E express? It made sense, but according to the posters the E and F were both supposed to run local. I think it would have made more sense to suspend E service, run the R via 63rd to Jamaica Center (local all the way), and keep the F as usual.
I have a feeling that C/R's on the E weren't aware of the D GO. On my train, at least, he didn't mention that Roosevelt would be the last transfer opportunity to 6th Avenue service until W4.
Passengers are not allowed to ride in yards. Period. This is by TA edict. In the yards stop arms are not at every signal. This would be a safety issue with passengers on a train. Employees only is another matter entirely. This matter was discussed fully on Harry Becks site. This GO will be completed 6 1/2 hours from posting of this message.
Maybe you could explain this to me, since Train Dude couldn't (or didn't). The trains are running through the yard anyway, despite the safety issue you cite. Is the danger somehow lessened if the trains are empty at the time?
As you might expect, it's a liability issue. Government employees have medical care and training and if something were to happen in the yards, they'd be covered for any injuries or death that would resultn from an accident, PLUS they as employees do not have the right to sue. For a government employee to even try to sue as the result of an accident, they'd have to ask permission from the state court of Claims which traditionally never grants permission to sue.
Not so for "customers" ... that's the reason for it - if anything DID happen, it'd be a litigation party for subjecting the innocent to the big bad nasty railroad ... that's why geese aren't allowed to ride a relay either ...
As I suspected. The issue isn't safety; it's liability.
But is there no liability issue in requiring trainloads of passengers to push their way up to the street, onto the buses, and back down into the station? Is there no liability issue in allowing passengers to ride buses? After all, those signals up on the streets don't have trip arms either.
Let us not forget that, as a safety feature, the trip arms rarely actually do anything but bob up and down. Most T/O's are always able to obey the signals without the help of the emergency brake. Even without trip arms, there would be few crashes, and of those crashes a small fraction would yield injuries. (The T/O's must realize that, or they simply wouldn't be willing to operate in yards.) Now, I'm certainly not calling for the wholesale elimination of trip arms -- but might it not make sense for the TA to compare the actual liability issues rather than ruling out one option from the start?
(At the very least, couldn't I sign a waiver in exchange for not having to shlep up to the street?)
As for relays -- I thought the issue was crew safety.
A single, or a handful of passengers on a relay is risky to a crew in the sense of a possible robbery, beating or other event that wouldn't normally happen on a train in revenue. But then so is an emtpy lead car on a regular run. Many relays (I got to do the 205th St relay often) involve running a train to a wall behind the 205th St station and the possibility is there on many relays that a brake failure could occur and the train could possibly kiss the bumper. I was involved in a collision at Stillwell that ended my own probie days. I DID receive a bloodied nose and lost two teeth. I'm sure that if it was a trainload of geese, everybody would have laid down for this major 3 MPH wreck. :)
But fact is, the TA is an easy mark since it's government. The public does have the right to sue over any slight, real, or perceived. Employees on the other hand HAVE NO rights if they're injured on the job other than the medicals that are part of their bennies, the ability to eat up whatever time they have banked and then it's onto worker's comp. The NYS Court of Claims will not grant permission to employees to sue no matter how out of control a state agency might become and THAT is the reason as far as I was ever told for the "employees only" zones.
As to whatever happens to folks climbing, I'm sure there's some barrister out there who can create out of whole cloth some chain of responsibility somehow, but if the steps aren't icy and there's no sign of negligence, the dice roll for the MTA is much better based on what they did. I've ridden and worked non-revenue track. Ain't no big thang. :)
No, the danger of running of a train in a yard is not lessened if no passengers are on said train, but the TA always has to worry about lawsuits caused by alleged passenger injuries. If a motorman operating in a yard runs a red signal, he may not be stopped since all yard signals do not have stop arms. And a collision or derailment can happen. Better for this to happen if passengers are not on a train.
The same could happen during a wrong-rail operation when there is no reverse signalling. They resolve this by allowing only one train into the affected section.
Would it have been feasable to allow only one train into the yard at a time? If a necessary yard operation would have to interfere, they could either hold the next train until the operation completes or kick the passengers off that particular train and wait for the next.
The problem with the TA's GO is that it makes no provision for handicapped access. Wheelchair bound passengers can board at Jamaica Center. They cannot exit at Briarwood and cannot enter at Forest Hills.
There are probably half a dozen different solutions that would have preserved such access. My guess is that it will take a massive law suit by handicapped access advocates to make the TA change their maintenance policies.
Many times the least expensive alternative might be to provide taxi service. However, the TA picked Marathon Sunday, when the Queensboro Bridge lower level is closed. It takes planning to pick the one day of the year when giving somebody a taxi ride will not work.
If that had happened this weekend the crew confronted with the situation probably would have sent for some forms for the handicapped patron to sign, or at least make him/her take some sort of oath. Or they would just let them through, there was a 100% chance of getting sued for denying him/her passage and considerably less chance of an incident.
I had that job over the weekend and walked to work, there seemed to be 2-3 access-a-ride vans there just waiting around. A coincidence?
Anyone in a wheel chair takes them Vs the subway. Door to door service and no mug me sign on you.
THe vator at Parsons Archer is out half the time anyway.
Eww no! Of all the TV networks out there, PAX is the worst. All of their stations are on UHF, is there anything good on UHF?
The G.O. could have been worked completely differently.
They could have wrong-railed on the northbound express (D4) from Parsons/Hillside to 71/Continental. The E would have to single track between Jamaica Van Wyck and Van Wyck Blvd to get southbound trains to the northbound express, though.
Great minds think alike.
But I doubt that track is reverse signalled, so the problem remains. Besides, then those trains that usually sleep on that track would have to be laid up somewhere unusual, like the yard.
Why did both southbound tracks have to be closed at once anyway? Couldn't the work have been done one track at a time?
I don't think there would have been enough room in the yard for all those layups. Sure they could have laid them up somewhere between Queens Plaza and Continental, (no reverse signaling translates to absolute blocks and fewer trains would be necessary) but perhaps the vandals would of had a field day since "new toys" were laid up there.....both tracks were down at one time because concrete was poured into the new switch area. If the TA used ballast in the switches instead of concrete, this GO and many other all weekend GO's would be unnecessary. I have lamented here that a concrete roadway translates into a harsher ride and takes a toll on the trucks (possible cracks due to the hard vs. softer roadway). Concrete however allows for higher speeds. Wait a minute! What did I just say? Since NYCT trains are so much slower than other urban systems, a softer, ballasted roadway would suffice in my opinion. The use of concrete roadbed by NYCT, however, is a business decision. Case closed!!!!!!
Concrete lasts longer. Concrete keeps the rails in place better (especially important over switches). Concrete is smoother!
Concrete saves the trees for the little boidies so they can sing.
Whats a matter for you. You no a lika da little boidies?
I love the little birdies--they're delicious!
Dan
I think you missed my point. I was making a case to use ballast instead of concrete to fill up the roadbed after the new switches were installed. The wooden ties are needed if you use ballast, the wooden ties are needed if you use concrete. Unless the TA becomes high tech and uses concrete ties, then they'll save the trees.
They only use full length ties on the structures.
There are tree free areas of the subway tracks.
Concrete now has 'give' by adding certain 'impurities' to the mix. The Romans added volcanic ash to their stuff, that is why it lasted so long.
Wanna bet they got their ash from Mt. Vesuvius?
What about express tracks elsewhere in the system? Many are unused at all times; many more are unused on weekends.
Actually, the cement makes sense in stabilizing the trackbed. It's not going to slowly shift to the side. Inside tunnels, the occasional movement of rails owing to centrifugal and centripetal forces is a more significant thing. Don't want sides of the cars peeling off on the steel if the tracks shift too close to the walls. On open cuts and traditional railroads, it's a lot easier to get in and shift the tracks back where they belong.
I assume the concrete pour is the traditional style and the rails themselves are still spiked to wood ...
There was a Diesel on the Local Tracks and there was workers on the Phlatform and there was a LOADS AND LOADS OF WORKERS OUTSIDE the 78 Ave exit at Union Turnpike Station. Even a Moble Office was there moveing nowhere BUT Bunch of workers comming in and out and workers are just eating Chinesse Food from a Chinesse Food place right by the station.
Until 5am tomorrow, the southbound D runs via 8th Avenue (local) to 2nd Avenue. On the return trip, trains run express on 6th Avenue. I was going to 14th Street, but I wasn't about to pass up such an offer.
They were going through the dash? Oh man I missed it again. I don't recall seeing that on the G.O. If I did I would've railfanned.
It was posted. There was no indication of whether the D would be running express or local, but usually on GO's of this sort it runs local. I was a bit surprised when the next stop was announced at W4.
The southbound dash is more spectacular since it's a downhill run.
Heh. You're showing your age, bro ... it was the NORTHBOUND dash that was great for eating your lunch since you could just drop the reverser and munch while fully wrapped. Southbound is timerland and you actually had to be ready to yank a handle. Even then. Between 59th and 103rd, you could actually cop a snooze. Heh.
Some misunderstanding. I was referring to the northbound 6th Ave. run between W. 4th and 34th. I agree 100% with you about the northbound CPW sprint. The R-10s would be at full stride by the time they bore down on 81st St; that station would be a blur.
Here's a question: how long would you keep a prewar D train under power on the northbound run before coasting? I'm trying to remember how long that very first D train I took on that stretch all those years ago coasted. I do remember the motorman reapplying power at about 103rd St; the bull and pinion gears sang out a resounding F# above middle C.
I took an A of R-38s on the CPW sprint for old times' sake during my visit. 37-38 was the best they could do. Not that it was bad; I've been spoiled for life by the Thunderbirds.
I wish I could experience a 6th Av. dash. Problem is they've discontinued it ever since the Manhattan Bridge Service Changes took place, and whenever a chance for a dash occurs (such as this one), I am not there.
I've never experienced this dash so I am interested in it.
Well, better luck for me, hopefully.
Railfan Pete.
It'll be back in 2004 (or so) for good. Can you wait a few years?
Personally, I don't think it's all that hot -- I generally need some sort of scenery (like local stations) before I find an express run exciting, but I know there are those here who disagree.
Apparently two Route 11 cars crashed on Saturday evening at 9th & Main Sts in Darby. From what I've heard, 9004 was outbound, turning into 9th St when its rear struck 9030, which had just left the loop headed inbound on Main St. Have not heard particulars but the area was closed for a few hours last night. Will pass along more info as it is received.
And, by the way, welcome back, David.
Now when I come to Philly. I won't be takeing the 11 from Darby!
Because 2 cars happen to bump each other, you won't take the 11???
Because 2 cars happen to bump each other, you won't take the 11??? Then I guess you won't take the 10, 13, 34, or 36 either. (sorry bout the repost)
Indeed! There are more 'bumpings' on the subway-surface than any of us ever hear about, according to those who know. I've seen enough just watching operators trying to couple up a dead car to its follower to push it out of the subway to wonder how many of these folks realize what they're doing.
I happened to be down there at the tail end of the emergency operation around 7 pm. My girlfriend and I were heading home after picking up our dinner on the other end of Collingdale when we saw the police activity. I went down to get a closer look, giving my girlfriend the excuse that I was going to get some beer (which I did a few minutes later).
From what I had heard, about 5-6 people were taken to Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital (which is about a mile up Main St/Lansdowne Av from Darby loop on the Darby/Yeadon border), though I think it was for simple observations. The accident didn't look to be too serious, however. At least not serious enough for that many people to go to the hospital.
Besides that, there really wasn't anything too noteworthy, except that Callowhill bus 5025 was shuttling passengers between Darby Loop and Woodland/Island loop.
It was posted a few weeks ago that when the new Queens Boulevard service pattern takes effect and the E and F TPH are adjusted that four E trains would be terminating at 179th in the evening and originating there in the morning. Does anyone have schedules for this yet? A friend of mine boards at 179th and needs the transfer to the 6 which will disappear when his beloved F train is rerouted through 63rd.
Also, does anyone know when the V service will begin operating?
Dan
PS: It's nice to have you back, Dave.
V service starts 12/10/01
Look in the archives, I think zman posted it.
He said he would, but I never saw anything.
Dan
Check the archives. I remember someone posting, I am quite sure it was him.
Yes I did post it earlier, thanks for noticing.
Cut & paste of message 274071:
The following runs will be effective at the beginning of the new pick (now December 9th)
Departures from 179 St:
7:12am
7:31am
7:51am
8:11am
--------------
3:57pm
4:16pm
4:36pm
Departures from WTC:
5:08pm
5:28pm
6:40pm
7:20pm
ticing.
Will these be Hillside expresses or locals?
We'll find out when they run 'em. Maybe local?
Thanks a lot--sorry for missing your earlier post.
Dan
Assuming R32's again predominate the E, will these "diamond" E's also get R32's, or get R46's since they run out of 179th like an F ?
i hope these E's are Express on hillside!
E diamond! i like i like!
They'll get whatever is available, but if there are 32's laying around, then that's what they'll get first.
Hillside express service finally.
I've been hearing a lot of things about the E going to 179 St. and the usual V starting sometime this month.
What might account for the E going to 179? Is it something that NYCT usually does or is something up?
I've never known the "kinks" for the SUBWAY before, especially this one.
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
"V starting sometime this month"
The "V service starting date has been postponed til 12/09/01.
Danm the TA! Why can't just they start damn thing this week?
I' m tired of waiting! It pisses me off when they always delay everything around the clock.
E is scheduled to run to 179 according to the 63rd tunnel proposed plan and its nothing new because it was done in back late 70 and early 80s. And it will bring major confusion to most riders since E will be terminating both places (Jamaica Center and 179)
You're oversimplify-ing it. New service plans begin when a "pick" or new job assignments go into effect so the new line can have personel to work it and schedule adjustments be made to the E/F/G/R lines as well. If Osama's boys didn't crash a couple of planes into the WTC, then the V would have begun service on 11/12/01.
Well, F*** Osama and his immature boys, they can rot in hell! I hope our men bomb their ass sooner.
Pardon my anger.
So is the E always going to run through the 63rd St. tunnel then to 179 St? It should run express in Queens.
Then if you say that the E is going to 179 St. AND Jamaica Center, is it going to be normal service or temporary service?
Railfan Pete
In order for the E to go via Eighth Ave., it must go via 53rd St. since the 63rd St. route feeds only into the Sixth Ave. line. There are only a few rush hour E intervals to/from 179 St., they have been posted on this board several times in the past.
As usual, the MTA will be asking the impossible: They want riders to pay attention to the destination sign before they get on the train.
Remember how many people got on the E train right after the Archer Avenue Extension opened, and thought they were transported to another dimension when "Jamaica Center" appeared outside their subway car windows? Some of them didn't realize they were on the wrong line even after the train visited Jamaica-Van Wyck and they were treated to the new tile decor...
When the F is rerouted through the 63rd St. Tunnel, the E/F tph will be adjusted to adjust for the loss of 53rd St. service. Jamaica Center is already running at max turnaround capacity, so the extra E trains will have to be diverted to 179th St, which hasn't been running anywhere near capacity for years.
Dan
I got more film back and I have uploaded some of the better pictures. Comments are more than welcome on any topic. Style, content, etc.
To start things off, here are two images of a rebuilt MTBA PCC car rounding the loop at Matapan.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/Matapan1.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/Matapan2.jpg
Moving down to South Station here is an image of some of the classic PRR Position Light Dwarf signals that have been installed. God bless Amtrak. I caught this signal cleared for a commuter train.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/SouthStation-ClearDwarf.jpg
And here is that commuter train headed by MTBA F40 #1027
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/MTBA_1027.jpg
Moving down to New Haven we see F40 #301 hanging out with the future of the New England division, a GE P42. I caught these two on Aug 30th, just after my PCC trip and just before my tower tour.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/NH84.jpg
Here is the cab of the M2 train that took me from GCT to New Haven on the 5:17 90 minute super express.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/M2-Cab.jpg
The following are the pictures I took on the final Newark PCC day on Aug 30th. First two interrior shots.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/NCS-interrior.jpg
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/NCS-interrior2.jpg
Here is a shot of an NJT painted PCC at the terminal.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/NCS-terminal2.jpg
Here is that same PCC at Penn Station
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/NCS-penn.jpg
Here is the trolley pole of another PCC with a wonderful hanging out the back shot.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/NCS-pole.jpg
The last shot I took before my camera died, another out the back shot of the RoW and some railfan onlookers who have staked out a primo location.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/NCS-RoW.jpg
Finally, we're going way back here, a shot of ChuChuBob at the NRSH summer picnic in South Jersey.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/chuchubob.jpg
BTW, incase you didn't see, I have posted a group shot of the Oct. 11th field trip to Boston. Left to right are: Nick B., Jersey Mike, Todd Glickman, the experimental "V-Train on Queens Blvd." GO printout, an R4, a PA4 stress toy, Lexcie and on the floor is non-Subtalker Austin.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/glickman-et-al.jpg
test
ok here is my shot ... how bout a ride on this beauty eh ???..........lol !!!
NOT BAD !!!
HEY! I thought you were not going to post pics :) btw, where is this thing in the pic from?
"marta" ha ha
No ""marta" ha ha "...lol!!......here !! This is one of my " hangouts" .......
Took that shot at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california back in 2000 sometime .....
with my sony DSC-S30 1-3 megapexel digital still camera !! 640 400 mode & in the posterrization
mode ( in the digital effects section ) ....lol !!
also not a lot of folks post thier pics I anit the only one !!! ..................lol!!! ......................
Nice shots, Mike.
Fortunately, the one at the NRHS picnic is dark enough that it shouldn't frighten anybody.
Bob we all knew you were outstanding in your field < G >
Mr t__:^)
Bob we all knew you were outstanding in your field
Right, Mr. T.
I used to say that about my uncle who raised corn on 2 acres in South Jersey (in addition to his job).
The first two are very seasonal, the orange coloration is somewhat pumpkinish, they would grace any Thanksgiveing celebration.
The third had a somewhat "Charles Dickensness" to it, the fog, the industrialization like flavor, a flavor that lacked the aromas of nature. An excellant capture of the moment.
These were the truly outstanding of a well done group.
Some looks as if the last few months have been more than kind, watch out for the coming holiday season.
avid
Outside the Union St. station on 4th Avenue in Park Slope (or nearby, I'm not too familiar with Brooklyn geography) in an old abandoned lot is a trolley car with SEPTA markings. It looks to be in pretty good shape. I can't remember the number on it, but it's in the 2000s.
Dan
I was taking pictures of that, How old do you think it is? more importantly how did that get there? its by some art store I think
I have a picture of that car. It's #2739. Take a look.
For those who can't do <tt>iframe</tt>, click <a href="http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/getimg.html?10/5/27.jpg">here</a>. The real image is located at http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/10/5/27.jpg, but click on the link before going there directly.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/10/5/27.jpg
yep
thats the one, im going to get a scanner soon so i'll scan my pics of t, I actually got close to it, wrote sumthin on it (sorry) the interior is actually there. didnt get iside though
Oh yeah. The one outside Carroll Street and 4th Avenue@the Brooklyn Lyceum.
Oh yeah, almost forgot. The Website for the Brooklyn Lyceum, the current owner of that SEPTA trolley at the empty lot adjacent to 227 4th Avenue is at:
http://www.gowanus.com/gowanus
It was built in 1947 by St Louis Car Co.
I posted a recap of my Croton-Harmon visit on October 20 in BusTalk. It's in three parts, parts one and three deal mainly with my godawful Greyhound trip there and back and part two with the actual open house, but you may enjoy all of it. I'll try to post photos soon as I took zillions of shots with my digital camera.
Part one - http://bustalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=39077
Part two - http://bustalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=39079
Part three - http://bustalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=39083
Interested in knowing what y'all think . . .
Chris
When are the R-143 cars supposed to go into passenger service?
- Lyle Goldman
I just heard that the date is next Monday, but this can change again.
Robert
The word is going out that 239th may soon see R143s...but it still is just a rumor. TA knows the 142s are a big project...Bombardier built them with outside propulsion and now has their own...too late. Boms. lead tech told me that Kaws aren't working any better cuz there so new. Today I made a positive connection while assembling a 'gimmick light' for Redbird propulsion service...it was a D. Sup. who noted my frustration about Redbird 'analog technology.' NEW IS GOOD. Peter
THAT would be a sight to see, considering that 239th Street is a Subdivision "A" (IRT) barn and yard and the R-143 is a Subdivision "B" (BMT/IND) car. The cars could probably be trucked into the yard but wouldn't be able to go too far once there.
As to the R-142 propulsion issue, if I'm not mistaken the propulsion system is provided by Adtranz. When the R-142 contract was signed, Adtranz was not owned by Bombardier, but it is now.
David
I thought so.... IND cars....but it just still keeps coming up. The Bom. trucks are made by former Mercedes Benz company ADTranz but propulsion control systems are Alstom (Agate and Onix.) Bom. just introduced their own propulsion control system on their website. Am always looking for web-tech....frustrating. Bom. has nothing, Alstom has 'animation.' I work with several guys that want to learn...there is more to this work than making supervisor. Peter
That's where I made my mistake......it's the R142A cars and not the R143s....just read a post by Abercrombie & Fitch Boi about Plattsburg...which is not near Dusseldorf. 142As are numberworld...143s are letterworld. Do you think TA is busy teaching us??? I LEARN HERE. Peter
I would think that 207th would be the logical place for the R-143 delievery since its general close to the Plant and can handle B-Divsion car.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Home Sweet Home!
Did you have a good time while it was away?
(Remember: There's no place like home)
>Did you have a good time while it was away?
Pete,
F no!
Nothing beats the original.
I know. I've been to alternate websites but nothing was as good as SubTalk. The others had too many borders around their texts which makes me dizzy and uncomfortable to read, whereas Dave's site has no borders around everything and looks plain and easy to read.
how rough was going thru airport security etc?? did for example they INSIST on X ray all of your digital cameras & photography
equipment ? did they insist you turn it on and off and demonstrate it etc.. Was it difficult having show every single piece of your
down to the last detail examined ??Did you worry about your pictures being erased or destroyed by them...?? etc...
( my apology for any typo errors ) ...
Did you know that airport X ray equipment isn't powerful enough to cause problems in electronics, meaning that you don't need to worry about ruining the pictures stored in digital cameras and their related equipment?
-Robert King
Did you know that airport X ray equipment isn't powerful enough to cause problems in electronics, meaning that you don't need to worry about ruining the pictures stored in digital cameras and their related equipment?
Some of us older subtalkers remember when airport X ray equipment destroyed video cameras.
Good grief, what were they trying to do? Make the luggage glow in the dark after scanning. It takes quite a bit of xraying to ruin electronics.
at least I would insist on taking my digital memory sticks seprating them from the rest of my equipment & the exposed
35 mm film as well ( taken OUT of the small plastic film cans ) ...
On the way home you could send the film to yourself by fedex or UPS.
...YEP........U.....got that right ....!!!.....lol !!
Airport X-ray won't damage digital cameras/media but yes they did insist on X-raying everything including film canisters. The xray machines used to scan carryon items isn't strong enough to fog film. You should never store film in your checked luggage. Other than that security was just about normal as far as I could tell.
question again : so you mean they did INSIST on X ray -ing sony memory sticks wiping out all of your digital photos !!
Also many of my friends came home with thier entire film ERASED by the X ray-ing at airports !!!
it is not possible to seperate the exposed film ( taken out of the plastic cans ) ??? ..............thank you ...
Noticed on one of my trips on the N.On the walls of the s/b plat. there is a sign stating Sensitive devices above do not touch.If you look up above you can see them.Just wondering if any one else has seen them and if anybody has any idea what exactly they do?
They measure vibrations from the street above to make sure that all that extremely heavy equipment moving about (and removing debris) does not compromise the subway structure.
Hello all, it's good to have the site up and running again. Well our transit authority has changed much, it seems like things are getting worse. I caught an r142 from the Bronx a few days ago, I loved the ride. I got off at Times Square only to notice that most of it is missing or under construction, come on guys it's not like I ride all the time. I drive most of the time, okay all of the time, so when I get the time to ride the subway it's like taking a trip to Heaven. Anyway as I was walking through the Times Square platform, a couple of r62a's from Livonia pulled in running on the one line. These cars had some serios graffitti damage, it just blew my mind. I know the city is going through a state of shock of some sorts due to the Sept. 11 incident, but we or the transit can't afford to let our subway cars get torn up like this. I'm surpised they put those cars in service the way they looked, I guesse the T/A has alot of important things to contend with other than a few ugly looking subway cars.
Proabably a bad day. but we still got the Zero Tolerance so once a train completes its run it is supposed to run light back to its yard and get cleaned. Everything is going as normal and looks and feels fine. 99% of the cars are on track and working and looking great sporting the american flag look (now I wonder if they would dare put on the Bi-Centinial stripes on the R-44 again???)
Dont worry about it, it was just a horrible coincidence that day.
Speaking of changes, I got a big kick out of that "ellipse" at the northern end of the Times Square BMT station. You get a good perspective of just where that line ducks beneath the shuttle, especially where the express tracks spread apart to clear the now-unused underpass.
I know what you mean about the cars on the 1 Line (my home line). On Saturday nite about 10 PM, I was on a northbound 1 (not sure if they were form 240 street or Livonia) but of the six door panels on the car I was riding (second from front) only two opened, the middle door way did not open at all, both panels were frozen shut. And the of the end doors, only one panel on each opened.
The only time I ever saw one whole set of doors not opening was on August 9, 1967 while on the IRT for the first time. It was either on that rocket 5 train we took to the Bronx Zoo or that 2 train back to Times Square.
Funny you mention graffitti, in that "Amazing Race" show on CBS a few weeks ago they rode the subway in Italy, I think it was Rome and the graffitti was everywhere. The "Amazing Race" show is the only reality show I find interesting. Maybe they should have a race in NYC?
Across America by mass transit ONLY!!
I haven't seen any graffitti on the subways in NYC yet, things seem fairly clean except for dusty conditions.
Reminds me of the IRT lines in the 80's especially on the 1, 2, and 3 lines. How bad was this train, was this like the 80's? Just out of curiousity.
Please See Bustalk Entry Below For Items I Have Available For Trade:
http://bustalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/bustalk.cgi?read=39090
New signage is starting to appear on R-62As from 240th Street Yard (perhaps others as well). 5 of 10 R-62As that I observed at 14th Street yesterday now show signs for "14 St, Manhattan". The blank signage is going to disappear.
-Stef
Most of the 3 trains I saw yesterday had correct (14th Street) signage on some if not all cars.
They must have just starting putting those signs in. All of the 3 trains I saw two weeks ago had blank lower destination signs.
Yes, the signs started to appear about a couple of weeks ago. Like Stef said, they are only on the 240St R62A's cars.
The installation began less than a week ago. I live near a 1/2 station so I see 3 trains often enough. I rode one on Thursday (and saw a few others pass) and there were no signs. Yesterday they were all over the place.
It figures. I leave for home and the N and R come back the same day. And 3 trains get new 14th St. signs. Not that any of this is new. In 1965, we visited the city while on vacation and rode on the BMT Southern Division both days. Didn't see any Triplexes. Their last day of service was the same day we left for home.
Are you sure these are new signs? When the Williamsburg Bridge was closed and R-40s were terminating at Marcy Ave, a stick on sign covered up a seldom used destination on that curtain sign. But you never know with the TA.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm unsure of this.... If someone can confirm for certain whether it's a new roll sign or a stick on, I'd like to know.
-Stef
It looks like a stick on to me. I had a job on the 3 yesterday and the first train I took out of Lenox, had these signs.
I saw one, it was slanted...heh another high quality sign job by the MTA. Take a look at 72nd street uptown, their signs above the platform indicate the 3 on the local and the 1 and 2 on the express. High qual.
Here's a stupid question: What are you favorite transit agnecy color schemes? My personal favorites are:
New Jersey Transit (blue, purple, and orange)
San Antonio VIA (red, purple, and orange)
Toronto Transit Commission (red and white)
New York MTA (blue and white)
I like the three-color schemes because they seem more balanced that a lot of the two-color ones, and I like the classy simplicity of the one-color schemes like Toronto and New York. (I'm not counting white as a color, but you can if you like.)
Mark
TTC: Red, White and Black too.
Ok, red, white, and black, but the scheme is still simple and classy, and among my favorites.
Mark
I like the MTA look. The new logo is kind of cool. The old "M" logo looked best when it was in a circle, like on Metro-North trains. I especially like the "blue stripe" look which the subways used to have, and which Metro North and some LIRR MU's still maintain. (I think the M1s and M3s look MUCH better with the blue stripe, and it doesn't hurt the R44s and R46s either.)
:-) Andrew
I wonder why they Used to call the old "Blue Stripe" scheme "battle of the states" SelkirkTMO(you hated it didn't ya) or anyone can you fill us in?
The only guess I can venture is that the blue stripe was on all trains that remain(ed) within New York State (Subway, LIRR and Conrail/Metro-North Hudson and Harlem lines) while the New Haven Line trains that ran to Connecticut had (and still have) the red stripe.
:-) Andrew
How strictly is this enforced? That is, how often do Connecticut cars stray onto the all-New York lines and vice versa? Is it like R-32's on the R (common) or like R-32's on the F (unheard of)?
You never, ever see New Haven Line MU's on the Hudson or Harlem lines, or vice-versa. But then I suppose you technically couldn't run them that way, since the NH line trains run on catenary while the Hudson-Harlem lines (like the LIRR) run on third rail. The diesel cars usually keep to their corners (ie: blue on Hudson and Harlem and red on New Haven), but it's not too unusual to see a defector or two.
Now west-of-Hudson, I have no idea. I think the Pascac Valley and Port Jervis lines use largely NJ Transit stock.
:-) Andrew
More than you ever wanted to know about odd car uses:
There is one train of all CDOT (or mostly CDOT) equipment which runs to Poughkeepsie every day (including weekends).
You will sometimes get mixed trainsets to Danbury during the rush.
The New Haven line MUs have been seen on the Hudson line, but that's very rare. The reverse is physically impossible.
NJTransit mostly uses their MNRR cars during the rush hours on the Port Jervis line and Bergen County locals to Waldwick, Ridgewood, and other non-NY bergen line destinations. The Main and Pascack lines rarely see them, and it's pretty difficult to find these trains during middays and weekends. Engines are fair game, though.
There is one train which starts on the Boonton Line, and after arriving in Hoboken goes up the Bergen County at 10:35AM, down the Main line to arrive at Hoboken at 1:09, then departs for the Boonton again at 1:47, and then comes back via the Morris & Essex lines. I don't know where it goes from there. This train sometimes runs MNRR equipment, sometimes Comet III and IV, but recently only has Comet Is (which are a pain at Paterson, Dover, and Summit).
There is one train of all CDOT (or mostly CDOT) equipment which runs to Poughkeepsie every day (including weekends).
So how can you tell if a train is CDOT? Anything with a red stripe or just the ones with the Connecticut state seal instead of the MTA logo?
:-) Andrew
I saw one of those CDOT cars with the Connecticut logo in Trenton once. How did that happen?
Mark
I would venture a guess by saying the blue represented the North while the gray represented the South. One of the postseason collegiate bowl games known as the Blue/Gray follows the same the theme.
One of the reasons why the stripe was "removed" per se from R-44 and 46's was that on the 44's, the part that WAS covered by that stripe (I believe) was NOT stainless steel, and there fore, when the cars were going into 207th Street (and I think CI Overhaul Shop) for GOH's, the powers-that-be decided that it'd be best to remove them, so the paint wouldn't allow the carbon steel below to rust thru, as for the 46's, I'm not so sure why they took it off, but my running hypothesis is that if they were going to do it on ALL of the cars during GOH--including R-32's (the doors themselves), 38's, and 42's, why not include the newer, but (really) full stainless steel 46's.
Stuart, RLine86Man
The old TA logo used in the 60s and early 70s is my favourite.
It is still displayed prominently at a Culver substation next to the West 8th St station.
--Mark
My favorite...San Francisco Municipal Railway's various schemes.
I have one:
AMTRAK 's logo: Red, white, and Blue! Colors of patriotism!
But AMTRAK recently changed its logo to a few green leaf-shaped objects, so I don't know if I have an interest that much.
AMTRAK's railcars with the old red, white, and blue stripes are running out of service, they are replaced with the new design: Dark blue, and thin stripes of red and white.
AMTRAK has also brought in Turquoise and yellow green and pine green railcars, also designed for the Acela Regional.
I also like NJT's tri-colored stripes.
PATH's logo might not be very interesting, but I still like the red colored P, and the border line across it, marking NY and NJ.
The invention of these logos are not by accident. It's pretty interesting to know how the logos of NJT and AMTRAK especially, have gotten their logos the way they are.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The PATH logo is great. I also like the Toronto Transit Commission logo, because it looks so antiquated. I don't know if its purposefully retro or if it really is very old, but I like it either way.
I also really like the logo of British Rail.
A lot of systems use red, white, and blue. St. Louis recently switched to that. The MetroLink trains look a whole lot better now, as the old scheme was an orange and yellow (or was it red and yellow?) that recalled any 1970s fast food joint. SEPTA is also gradually converting over to RWB from their old blue and orange colors.
Mark
Oh, yeah, I forgot about SEPTA. Red, white, and blue with two boomerang shaped figures.
I don't know of any other transit systems outside of the NE area, except for Santa Fe (yellow, and dark Turquoise)and BNSF (orange with light yellow, and black) railroad, and also CONRAIL (two white figures which cannot be explained). These may not be passenger transit agencies, but they still count as heavy freighting companies who do a good job at carrying their freight.
Also, does the BART system in San Francisco have a logo?
: )
Railfan Pete.
Yes, BART has a really neat logo. I almost mentioned it in the last posting. Check out the BART photos section on this very site to get a look at it.
Mark
I also like the Toronto Transit Commission logo, because it looks so antiquated. I don't know if its purposefully retro or if it really is very old, but I like it either way.
The present TTC logo appeared in 1954 with the opening of the first section subway. It was based upon the original TTC logo which were just the three letters staggered on top of eachother from left to right and top to bottom.
When it was introduced in 1954, the present TTC logo was 'Subway Red' (the official name for the colour used) and Cream in terms of colour. The TTC logo as it is now substitutes CLRV red for the original Subway Red, and white for the original Cream colour used in order to match the colours used in the new paint schemes, but it is otherwise the same. So, yes, you could consider the TTC's logo as being old except for the tweaks to the colours used.
In case anybody was wondering - during the transition years when new equipment, starting with the CLRVs, with new paint schemes and the red and white TTC logo appeared the TTC did not put the red and white logo on older equipment that still had the maroon or subway red and cream paint schemes like the PCCs, trolley buses etc.; instead they maintained a stock of red and cream TTC logos so there wouldn't be any clashes with the wrong logo being put on the wrong paint scheme. That is, untill one of my friends got a summer job at the Russell Carhouse and stuck a red and white logo on a PCC in the subway red and cream paint scheme for the heck of it!
-Robert King
This past Saturday, Thurston and I carpooled up to Shoreline Trolley Museum. We, along with Jimmy Boylan, helped Bill Young remove and replace 8 worn-out track ties. Following the R&R with the help of the track-tie machine (A god-send) we used the crane car to pick up and dispose of those ties and others that had been left from previous "Track Blitzes".
Thurston and I left about 8 PM and stopped for dinner at a local Italian Restaurant.
We proceeded home at about 8:30PM. While on I-95 we had Todd's favorite NYC station for traffic and weather together in case of any problems getting to the T-Neck Bridge. Fortunately there were no traffic problems on I-95. WCBS was using the Weather Channel for the weather but we heard Todd's voice reciting the praises of the Acela Train.
Todd----Thurston and I were wondering if you were in your pajamas when you did the commercial ??????????
Oh, so they play the commercial on weekends too? I thought it was only weekday rush hours.
[To answer the unasked question, WCBS contracts with The Weather Channel to do weekday middays and overnights, and weekends. Craig Allen, WCBS Chief Meteorologist, does weekdays 5am-11am and 4pm-8pm. I fill in for Craig when he needs a shift off, such as will occur this Wed afternoon and next Monday morning. I can work from either my home in suburban Boston via digital-gizmo, or live from the studio in NYC, as my schedule permits.]
I'll be doing an AE round-trip on Friday (business) then again Sun-Mon for my WCBS shift. I don't know yet if one of the benefits of my endorsement will be a cab ride, but I keep hoping...
...and that's Transit and Weather Together.
Hey, what happened to the planned Seashore trip this summer? Did i miss it, or did it not happen? :(
A set of circumstances prevented it. I am looking forward to doing it in 2001, so stay tuned to this Bat Channel.
Mr t__:^)
You mean 2002, I'm sure.
Opps ... sorry, just got in the habbit of writing 2001 :-(
Mr t
Dear Todd,
I hope the Acela gig is a union one! I think Amtrak could afford
it, especially with the prices on Acela tickets. They're out of my
price range!
As a fellow pro, I think you did a nice job of it!
Lynne
It was a very pleasent surprise to hear your voice & that commercial. Todd if I was you I would expect nothing less then first class treatment based on your testimonial. Good work my friend !
Mr t__:^)
That's "who guards the guardians?" for the Latin-impared. :^)
This morning as I was waiting for my Metra train, I saw the crossing guard posted by the village on the street at the west end of the station to keep kids from crossing against the gates CROSS AGAINST THE GATES! Very slowly and without concern. Right in front of a train approaching at a moderate speed (30-40mph), forcing the engineer to go BIE. The conductor opened a door as the train went slowly past the crossing guard and put a nice fat bee in the crossing guard's bonnet. Not that it seemed to phase him in the least, neither the near-death experience nor the dressing-down by the conductor.
This morning as I was waiting for my Metra train, I saw the crossing guard posted by the village on the street at the west end of the station to keep kids from crossing against the gates CROSS AGAINST THE GATES! Very slowly and without concern. Right in front of a train approaching at a moderate speed (30-40mph), forcing the engineer to go BIE. The conductor opened a door as the train went slowly past the crossing guard and put a nice fat bee in the crossing guard's bonnet. Not that it seemed to phase him in the least, neither the near-death experience nor the dressing-down by the conductor.
Maybe the crossing guard was rehearsing for the starring role in the upcoming movie, Train Girl - the Sequel.
Please: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Thats I will make my adjectives agree with my nouns, in case, number and gender (accusative, plural and masculine) for the Latin semi-impaired.
John
Conductor Darwin is also back from hiatus I see. :)
First of all, its good to be back. Secondly, does anyone know what's going between Pelham Bay and Parkchester, so that passengers are being forced into shuttle buses every weekend until Dec. 3rd?
Looks like track replacement but I can't tell for sure.
Very strange if it was because they did a project like that not too long ago.
Maybe they have to redo some of the new signal work.
Having personally been introduced to this G/O by mere
arrival at Pelham Bay Park (sans advisement in advance),
I was supposing it could be.......those chipped blocks
of wood on the trackbed which are teasing to split
and (perhaps) cause a derailment??
IIRC, NY1 had a story about "poor track conditions on an
elevated subway line in the Bronx" and one of the samples
of defective boards was found at Castle Hill Ave.
Could be that.
(After sitting in Traffic approaching Parkchester for
30 mins Sat, the bus driver let us all off at halfblock
distance and we walked down to Parkchester for the 6...
So, perhaps the shuttle buses themselves might face
DELAYS in this G/O....).
Castle Hill Av. station is well within sight of the platforms at Parkchester; when I got off a train this past weekend, I didn't see any work being done at CH. In addition, because Pelham Bay station is the end of the line, with low speed restrictions ANYWAY, I assume no work was done there either. The only trackwork I know about was the track on approach to Hunt's Point for the past several weeks.
The project they did not too long ago was a total switch replacement. They took the old ones with the sharp angles out and put new ones with smoother angles in, and in the process put new stringers on the el structure at Pugsley tower. I assumed then (and still do now) that it didn't just have to do with the new signals but also had to do with preventing excessive wear and tear on the new trains the line would get months later.
If there is any signal work that needed to be done, it would have been in the Westchester Yard.
There has been an interesting GO of sorts for several weekends now on Denver's light rail line. Basically, it involves shutting down the line between I-25/Broadway and 14th St. downtown and running split service with shuttlebuses between the two sections. Trains were running between Mineral and I-25/Broadway and from the northern terminus at 30th Ave. to 14th St., looping via the unused turnout from Stout St. to 14th St. Single-car trains ran on the northern half, something you don't see anymore. Up until now, there were no flange marks on that short section of track. Now there are. Apparently, some operators were setting the destination sign to "Mineral" out of habit when leaving 30th Ave. Two of the three trains running on the northern portion were showing Mineral while the one I caught was sporting "14th Street" signs, which all LRVs have. I took a picture of that train as well as a shot of a train turning from Stout onto 14th. They're doing work at the location where the new Central Platte Valley Spur will join the existing line, although I didn't see any evidence of trackwork two weeks ago.
I also got a glimpse of three of the four new stations on the spur. The Pepsi Center/Elitch's stop will have three tracks and two boarding areas, with the third track branching off the southbound track just before the station and merging once again after the station. The Invesco Field stop will have outside boarding areas as well as one in between the tracks. Trains will be able to open up on both sides in both directions. Auraria West will have only a center boarding area. Don't know about the layout at Union Station. My guess is it will either have outside boarding areas or perhaps three tracks and two boarding areas. There will be substantial pocket tracks past the terminus to allow storage and quick dispatching of 3-car trains after Rockies games. Tracks have been put down as far as Invesco Field; they end right at Walnut St. and then one track picks up again on the other side of Walnut St. The new spur is still slated to open April 1 of next year.
With all these long term GO's will the A train become unbearable at night once the split service at 168 ends?
All the good homeless runs are gone and the platform people at 179 are actually doing their job now.
The D is short, the F will have 2 relays, the E has a relay the N will have one too. The local cops at Met are tough. The passengers on the L will set them on fire if they are too stinky.
I don't really get the point, what are "good homeless runs"? I would assume long underground runs. But doesn't the F always have 2 relays? What is changing? And doesn't the E have 2 relays (I assume relay means when they change ends and go back from a terminal. I'm saying I disagree (or agree), but I would like to get some more info on you post
Thanks
Bill/Piggo
Yes long runs are good to sleep on.
A relay is when you go into the pocket to change ends not when you change in station. The old E never left revenue service areas so you could sleep all night on it. The F only had to be cleaned out (removing the passengers) at 179 so it gave you a 3 hour sleep from 179 to Stillwell and back.
Most passengers are not really aware because at about 5 am the police roust everyone out of bed so the regular customers can have a seat. The homeless can smell in the air that Guiliani's time is over and are back in growing numbers plus post WTC many begging spots have dried up and fewer people seem to be on at night (that seems to be starting to change).
Do the E and J/Z relay at Jamaica Center solely to chase out the sleepers? Unless Peter's track map needs to be updated, trains still have to switch tracks between Sutphin and Parsons.
Do the south ends of the 5 and 6 count as relays, or must the train reverse course?
The loop tracks are not relays, because the same TO is in continuous operation. To qualify as a relay, the train must be dumped at least once AND must be operated into non-revenue trackage.
Thanks for the clarification.
I guess that means that, for instance, when the Q terminates at 42nd due to a GO (as it did yesterday), it doesn't strictly speaking relay, since the tracks it turns on are revenue tracks (they're used by the Q whenever it continues to 57th). Or am I reading too much into your post?
OK, OK, there are always exceptions. What the Q was doing at 42nd St is indeed a relay - it comes in here (4 Track) and goes out there (3 Track) and spends the time between here and there in what is considered non-revenue trackage in that particular instance. The normal relay locations are:
3 at 135 St (early Sunday AMs)
4 at Utica Ave
C at Euclid AND 168 St
D at 205 St
F at 179 St
G at Smith/9 St AND Continental
J at Broad St (assuming it doesn't leave from R1 and cross north of the station)
M at Bay Parkway
Q (I don't know how they work 57/7. If it goes like Brighton Beach on the diamond, then no; if everything comes in on 4 and leaves on 3, then yes)
R at Continental
S at Broad Channel
S at Euclid Ave (late nights to Lefferts)
W at Pacific St (weekends)
W at 36 St (late nights)
R at 36 St (late nights)
(I think that's all of them)
Other relay locations I've seen used:
5 at Grand Concourse LL relays south of Jackson on M track
4 and 5 at Grand Concourse UL relays north of station on M Track
1 at 137 St
Thanks.
The Q at 57/7 is like at Brighton Beach: pull in on either express track, drop off passengers, pick up new passengers, and pull out. There is seemingly no predictability as to where the locals and expresses end up (unlike at 34/6, where the B and D each have designated tracks).
There is a system to how the (Q) & come in to 57/7. The come in on 4 track and the (Q) come in on 3 track. The is why you have to punch a 42nd street to tell the tower at 57/7 who you are.
Robert
Usually, perhaps, but not always. I've seen diamonds on both tracks at once.
But it is a preference they are not going to hold a train for its proper track. If there is an open spot they will bring the train in.
I was held outside 57 yesterday for a to come off 3 track. A (Q) came off 4 track just as I came up to the station.
Robert
Are you saying both 3 and 4 were filled? I think then you would have to wait. But it sound like you got the first available.
No someome put the wrong train on the wrong track. The (Q) are suppose to go on 3 track and the are suppose to go on 4 track. So I had to wait for a to come off of 3 tack to go onto 3 track since I was a (Q).
Robert
The 6 near the yard entrance?
Add that onto the list - 6 at Parkchester. In the four years I spent in the A Div as both CR and TO, I can count on my fingers how many times I worked the 6.
So far, I only worked the 6 line........ONCE. Not that Im complaining to work over there. It was a good day over there too. Only two BIE's at the same spot (north of Cypress Av) at different times. Yes, both of the trains were R142A's.
57/7 appeared to be like Brighton Beach when I was there on 8/20. Signs stated things such as "Q to Coney Island on this or other side"
No one relays at Jamaica Center, the train turns in station. The J also turns in station in Manhattan at Broad (when it does Broad)depending on who runs the tower.
Really? The last time I rode out to Jamaica Center the J train I got off of proceeded east (north) after stopping. A month or two ago, I thought you (or maybe it was someone else) said the E and J/Z now relay at Jamaica.
How does the J turn in station at Broad? It's a wall platform station with (IINM) separate platform entrances. If the train pulls in on the SB track, nobody waiting for a NB train can board. If the train pulls in on the NB track, anybody who waited for the last minute to transfer to the M is out of luck. (Or is there a crossunder?)
The J has layups (pockets) at Parsons Archer. Those tracks don't cross over they just store one train each on either track. The trains depart on one track or two track.
You change on the S/B, there is a switch that the end of the station.
The SA knows when this is happening, there is no crossover that I know about. At those times there is no M service. The homeless can stay on the train. No one gets on there at those times (except for people that post here not real people). Actually that is a good place to get rid of a SA on weekends.
There is a crossOVER at the north end of Broad St where the "open all the time when the station is open" booth is located.
I had no idea. I am severely allergic to some of the stuff down there and get the heck out of there ASAP. You should see the respirator, antihistimines and cream I carry for my A and J jobs.
Of course that leads to another story I can't give all the details on.
I didn't know that there were 'special homeless trains.' This makes me think....say prayers for the CTAs and CI Carbody that have to do service. The election of mayor will 'bring good business practice to the TA???' Safer 'in the hole,' Peter.
The only thing that will end the homeless problem is Soylent Green.
I believe this will be a bad homeless winter. People are charitied out. Pissed at the WTC. No one in government except for a Rudy wiould start their term being so tough on the homeless. Many of the easy touches for panhandlers have passed away or laid off. Tourism is still down and the bargain hunter tourist are not as likely to give a bum a fiver. Last month I started seeing very young men riding the subways all night something I had not seen in 10 years.
I was hunting for my polling place which has been moved several times and my phone went off. The homeless guy down the block from the 63rd Street Station with the McDonalds cup whipped out his cellphone. Peter
[All the good homeless runs are gone and the platform people at 179 are actually doing their job now.]
This reminds me of when, about 10 years ago, the Partnership for the Homeless demanded that the subway system shut down overnight so that the stations could be converted into homeless shelters. That idea didn't last long!
Why does the system need to be shut down? The stations and trains seem to function just fine as homeless shelters while in service.
They only listened because Mary Brosnahan was HOT!
There are a lot more Homeless rideing on the No.1 Line. I'm starting to see a lot of new faces.
Longer line, better sleep.
Cmon Dave: you now the 1 line is known as the "homeless" line in the A division. Wait a couple weeks when pass 168 or 181 then you'll see.................
It's good to see SubTalk back. I actually thought of another way to re-route train lines when the 63rd Street Tunnel reopens. Some of these routes are a little radical, and some you have seen before.
Keep the Brooklyn-Lower Manhattan Ferry running, even after the lower Manhattan part of the Broadway line reopens. It gives subway riders on the 4th Avenue line an alternate route to lower Manhattan.
Clean up and reopen the lower level of the Bergen Street station.
E runs between Jamaica Center and Kings Highway. E runs normally between Jamaica Center and West 4th. South of West 4th, run it on the F to Kings Highway. The E runs express between Bergen Street and Kings Highway. On the 4 track portion between Bergen and Church the E runs express in both directions. On the 3 track portion between Ditmas and Kings Hwy, E runs express to Manhattan (weekday AM hrs) and from Manhattan (weekday PM hrs). Weekends and nights (after 9 PM) it terminates at 2nd Ave.
F still runs between 179 and Coney Island. F runs the same way it does now only that it goes through the 63rd Street tunnel and that it no longer have trains terminating at Kings Highway. It only terminates at Coney Island.
G runs between Court Square and Church Ave at all times. It runs local between Bergen and Church.
M runs between Metropolitan Ave and 95th Street. It goes local on the 4th Ave Line. It would run all times except nights when it would be two shuttles (Metro-Myrtle and 36-95th Streets).
N runs its normal route between Ditmars and Coney Island only that it goes local in Brooklyn at all times.
Eliminate the Q Diamond.
Q runs between 179 Street and Brighton Beach. It runs express on the Brighton and Broadway lines, then runs through the 63rd Street Tunnel and proceed express all the way to 179 Street. It would operate all times except nights.
R runs between Continental Ave and Coney Island at all times. It would run EXACTLY the same way that the Q Local ran temporarily (Brighton Local, cross the Manhattan Bridge, Broadway Local, through the 59th Street tunnel and then local to Continental).
V runs local between Continental Ave and 2nd Ave in lower Manhattan. It would run local in Queens, run through the 53rd Street Tunnel then run local on the 6th Ave Line. It operates all times except weekends and nights (after 9 PM)
W also runs normally between Ditmars and Coney Island, the only difference is that it would go express from 57-Canal instead of 34-Canal. If the MTA would replace the track on the southbound side that enabled Astoria trains to switch to the express track north of 57th Street, it would make the Broadway Line run a little smoother.
I think there are enough trains available to run it this way. I figure that the Brooklyn-Manhattan Ferry would help the 4th Ave Line during the rush hours so it will not need as much service heading into lower Manhattan. I also figure that with the WTC disaster and the WTC PATH station out of commission for a long while, you can get away with sending only one Broadway line into lower Manhattan.
I still support a Culver Express because of three reasons.
1. The railfan in me. (I'm not gonna pretend otherwise).
2. Three Queens Blvd. Express trains would probably mean less F service. Having a second Manhattan train on the Culver would (for the most part) cover up the loss of service.
3. A Culver Express could lure some people away from the crowded Brighton Line.
What do you guys think? Comments, critiques and questions are welcomed.
If the TA were able to squeeze three expresses on Queens Boulevard, don't you think we'd have seen three expresses on Queens Boulevard a long time ago?
You've also introduced a transfer to every current rider from Bay Ridge who needs to get north of Delancey Street in Manhattan (although you've offered an additional route to lower Manhattan, namely the ferry).
Keep the R, Run the M to Brighton, Run the V over the Brighton to Coney island V via 6th Ave, Q via Bdwy
Obviously that would have to wait for the Manhattan Bridge to be in full operation.
It's an interesting plan but V trains would have to switch from express to local at W4 or 42nd to reach the 53rd Street line. Perhaps we could run the V via Culver and the F(!) via Brighton -- 63rd Street is accessible from both local and express. OTOH, part of the idea behind the V was to supplement 6th Avenue local service.
V can change over at 34th St
It's not a matter of squeezing more routes. The number of routes is not the determining factor. It's a matter of capacity, in trains for hour. If you have a 30 tph capacity, you can run 12 E + 9 F + 9 Q just the same as you could run 15 E + 15 F. Notice, that the maximum turn-around capacity at Jamaica Center is 12 tph. Thus, 3 Es will soon be sent to Hillside Av.
Well, yes, but that entails a service reduction on the F and possibly the Q. Will the reduced service be sufficient in Brooklyn and on Broadway?
David, I believe it is possible. I would have the V supplement the F service on the Culver Line. I believe that, say for the morning rush, the southbound distribution via Queens Blvd. could be 12 E + 9 F + 9 Q and that northbound, there could be fewer E trains (by running some of the southbound Es to Euclid or Rockaway Park for day lay-up), fewer Fs (to be made up for by the V service, which would run on 8th, not on 6th) and 10-12 northbound Qs.
The Q back on Broadway
I think that the southern terminal is what most defines the letters of the former BMT southern division lines. So by definition an (R) train runs to Bay Ridge while the (Q) runs to Brighton. However you could always send the (M) (defined by its north terminal and route via Bwy elevated/Nassau St subway) down that way instead of West End to run local. They used to do that up through the mid 1980's.
:-) Andrew
Sorry it took a while to get back to you all. In terms of routing, the R running local on the Brighton Line would be temporary. When the Manhattan Bridge reopens fully, I would return the R back to it's normal route to Bay Ridge. I agree 100% with the Q Brightliner. I would run the D, M and Q Trains over the Brighton Line when the 6 Ave side reopens. As for the "whole new set of transfers" for Bay Ridge riders north of Delancey, if the M becomes the train to Bay Ridge, yes that legendary transfer to the L at Myrtle is VERY important. Seriously though, north of say Prince Street (the R stop closest to Delancey), how many Bay Ridge riders actually stay on an R Local to get to a stop north of Prince. They usually transfer to an express at either Pacific or DeKalb.
If I were going from a local R stop in Brooklyn to a local N/R stop in Manhattan, I wouldn't bother transferring to a bridge train and back unless one happened to pull in across the platform -- especially if my destination were Prince or 8th, in which case I'd have to put up with a longish walk at Canal.
Good point. If my hypothetical routing took place though, Bay Ridge riders who decide to go to a local stop north of Canal could wait for an R, which would still go local after crossing the Manhattan Bridge. They would just have to get off their collective butts.
I don't remember the details of your routing. (Sorry, there have been so many in recent days that I can't keep track.) But, in terms of track arrangement, the Manhattan Bridge is best thought of as the Broadway express while the lower Manhattan section is the Broadway local. Running a Manhattan Bridge train local on Broadway is as undesirable as switching any other line from the express track to the local track with through service on both.
>Running a Manhattan Bridge train local on Broadway is as undesirable >as switching any other line from the express track to the local >track with through service on both.
Well at least another person gets that fundamental.
BTW as unhappy as I am with the RR I am ready to start actually going to TPH stage on the A/C. A unintentional gain wa using 8 cars to Euclid! We might be able to queeze in on more rush hour train or introduce a 168-Euclid rush hour special. Any thoughts on rush hour skip stop, Euclid to Hoyt. (If you don't object no one will)
I don't see why you'd want skip-stop, especially with a perfectly good express track available.
As you saw in another thread, once sufficient cars become available, I'd be in favor of extending the C to Lefferts and sending all A's to the Rockaways. Obviously that would save Rockaways passengers much waiting time. I think I computed that the average time lost by a commuter from Lefferts would be two minutes, but that's assuming he doesn't transfer to an express, and in any case he spends less time on the platform.
Running a Manhattan Bridge train local on Broadway is as undesirable as switching any other line from the express track to the local track with through service on both.
Absolutely. And you only save three stops if you are going to Carnegie Hal, two to Times Square.
If you want an R express, better do it in Brooklyn, at or before Pacific.
David, yes his plan involves that switching at Prince but saves the relay switching at 57th/7th, by making both the Q and R through services (via 63rd and 60th). So if anything, his idea calls for less switching and fewer delays on Broadway. It would have to wait, though, until enough rolling stock is available.
In addition to what the Q Brightliner stated. I'm willing to bet that those at Prince, 8, 23, and 28 Street Stations would be happy to see one of the two Broadway Local trains go over the bridge. Not only would that save them time, but in some cases it would save them a transfer. While this may not be fundamental routing, I think passengers at these popular local stops (particularly 8th and 23rd Streets) would love that option.
P.S.: In case you didn't know, to see my routing proposal, hit the "First In Thread" button.
Ok the Culver Express is needed because of one thing, the existance of the Culver Express.
Sending the E down that line would slow up the F and G local Brooklyn service tremendously and affect A and C service indirectly.
Going northbound the E&F would conflict at Jay St throwing each other off. Then the E would conflict with the C train south of West 4th ( it does now at Canal) and this would further affect the F again and now the V.
Kings Highway is the natural place to drop out F service for easy access to Coney Island yard AND a middle track to clean out a train without plugging the service. I know it stinks if you live by Ave X but the train pretty much empties out around Church. Unlike the W or J there is no big reverse commute on the F train either.
You would also have to add lots of tower operators and dispatchers and line TSSes.
You are also forgeting that Stillwell will be shutting down soon.
As a TO and non Brooklynite I would say that 4th Ave people have the right to complain the most.
I have more but my JC Penney 25% coupon expires in half an hour
While I admit that my having a Culver Express is partially the railfan in me, it's not the only reason. The 1 (in Manhattan and the Bronx) and the 4 in the Bronx all have express tracks that are not used. I'm not arguing for express service on these lines because they all have neighboring lines that are not completely crowded. It makes no sense to have express trains on these lines. The same cannot be said for the Culver. The Brighton Line express AND local trains are pretty crowded, particularly during morning rush. I strongly suspect that there is a good number of people who avoid the Culver and head to the Brighton because the Culver only has local service. I'm believe that with a Culver Express, they would travel on the Culver instead on the Brighton, and the Brighton Line would not be as crowded. Plus trains traveling through tunnels would be quicker, than trains traveling over the Bridge.
I'm not entirely sure about the tremendous slowdown in service on the Culver. As it stands right now the F and G usually get in each others way, slowing both trains down. This is partially because there are a whole lot of F trains running. Under what I proposed, the only times there would be conflict affecting people going to and coming home from work in Manhattan is when northbound E and F trains both arrive at Bergen at the same time or when the G terminates at Church (which would slow down the F). The second case already happens when the G terminates at Smith-9th.
By the way, the MTA not being on time wouldn't be a new thing.
Q Exp: now that plan seems workable! But I think it better that you leave the E as it is now (but extending some of them to Euclid, instead of terminating all at Canal), and extending the V as Culver local, with return of the F as Culver Exp. Better yet, running the V via 8th Av. from 53rd St. to W 4th St., as it seems to me that additional trains connecting Penn Station and the Port Authority Bus Terminal to the east side might be in more demand than additional 6th Av. local service.
34-50 st on the 6ave needs it just as badly (PATH).
Does the PATH station at 33rd St. also hook-up nicely to the Broadway Subway? If so, then we would have a 7-block differential there (60th St. & Lex. instead of 53rd & Lex.), by using uptown Broadway locals instead of 6th Av. locals from there. Do you think that 7-block difference would be critical?
Nope, different level
Unless these are railfan/fantasy lines take the following into consideration.
Car cleaning. Running everything to CI makes cleaning tough as trains have lesstime at the terminal.
Route length. The A local to Far Rock is near the length of endurance 3 locals and one express is very tiring. More of the daytime incidents occur on the Far Rock A than the Lefferts A (like 2:1). Routes like the E to Rock Park all local are for the birds.
Costs. Extending routes need more equipment and longer headways don't cut it. Whenever 2 services cross or diverge you need a tower person 24/7 and possibly an ATD. Longer lines also need more TDs and TSSes.
Conflicts. Every time lines cross or share tracks problems happen. The E might need a battery to get back on track but if the other services are on time there is no way it can catch up because it shares track and lots of diverges and merges make it even harder to correct problems.
Ride the lines. It's nice to say take the trains from X but ride that line first.
Add to the reverse commute. Some lines have alot of people going the 'wrong' way these are the most efficient place to add service first. Reverse commutes also are a reason not to cut service.
Crush load. Extending lines like the 6 to Coop City would be fine except that it would just make things worse at 59-42 st.
Local opinion. At Kings Hway a Culver Exprees might be nice but all your local stop neighbors don't want it when they realize it would mean fewer F s for them. There is the same concern out on the Queens end of the F too. Lets be real those expresses come at the expense of local service.
Train sets are limited. There really is stuff that should not be on the road as it is. Extending its life is dangerous. They also take YEARS to order and put into service.
Yards. Service changes can't create huge light train moves to get equipment back in place or to the yards. Yards now specialize, an E at Kings Hwy would have to go back to Jamaica yard to be shopped as CI is not really equiped to handle it.
Longer lines, worse service. The longer the line the harder it is to keep on schedule and when you have services merging that creates more problems.
That said if I would extend the V to Church as a Brooklyn express. That would work only if it is the same number of TPH as the G AND the S.
Oh yeah TPH. Use 29 as a base and knock off 1-3 every time services crosses over.
Sensible advice.
All the dreamy fantasy services would be possible only during midday, nights, and weekends -- and only if you found some more money to subsidize it. During rush hour, all you want is the maximum throughput of trains.
A better solution is to actually eliminate as many crossings as possible.
I assure you that there was not anything dreamy about what I was saying. Every route that I thought of had a reason behind it:
Running the Q express from 179 brings a legitimate third option to Queens Blvd. riders who want to go to Manhattan. They could now get to popular stations such as Times Square, Union Square, and Canal Street quicker and without transfers. It also gives them quicker access to lower Manhattan. They now have the option to change at Canal for the J, M and N for lower Manhattan service.
Running a Culver Express gives Brooklyn riders a quicker way to get to Manhattan (read: tunnel vs. the bridge), and maybe ease crowding on the Brighton. I chose the E as the Culver Express because of three reasons:
1. It is an 8th Avenue Train. This gives not only Culver riders but F riders in lower Manhattan 8th Avenue service. They would no longer have to transfer at West 4th.
2. The C as Culver Express would be great except it would bring about what I call "The Jamaica Center paradox". The C running as Culver Express would mean the E running local on the Fulton Line. If I'm at Broadway-ENY station, we have two trains that go to Jamaica Center, however one (the E) will take MUCH longer than the other (the J) to get there.
3. The V as the Culver Express would bring about an unusual situation where the two trains traveling on the same lines (F and V) switch roles (express and local) in two different boroughs. This does not happen anywhere in the Subway System.
From what I have seen riding the 4th Avenue line during rush hours (on several occasions). The M train serves little purpose south of 36th Street. It's a waste of money running it on the West End. The R on the other hand isn't a particularly crowded train in Brooklyn and in lower Manhattan these days, unless you board by the Staten Island Ferry at Whitehall. It starts getting crowded around Prince Street. I feel that the best thing to do is to switch the R (temporarily) to the Brighton Line cross it over Manhattan Bridge and run it to Continental. This would free up Q trains for their run to Queens. There may be even spare trains available from this switch on the Q, which could be used on the G and V trains. Finally, having M trains run to 95th Street would make it useful.
Just thought I let you know.
Still though isn't there anyway that the MTA could streamline operations so that 24-7 control towers would operate where needed?
>I assure you that there was not anything dreamy about what I was >saying. Every route that I thought of had a reason behind it:
But you ignoreed most of my points and they are a short list of factors that plaaners think about.
Running the Q express from 179 brings a legitimate third option to Queens Blvd. riders who want to go to Manhattan. They could now get to popular stations such as Times Square, Union Square, and Canal Street quicker and without transfers. It also gives them quicker access to lower Manhattan. They now have the option to change at Canal for the J, M and N for lower Manhattan service.
>Running a Culver Express gives Brooklyn riders a quicker way to get >to Manhattan (read: tunnel vs. the bridge), and maybe ease crowding >on the Brighton. I chose the E as the Culver Express because of >three reasons:
It would not be faster, you would lose time where the services meet.
You lose time whereever services meet. Sit your butt down at Chambers during the rush hour and watch how the A and C mess each other up. Bergen to Jay st would become a mess. So would Church St with the F and G sharing local tracks. It is a problem now but the F does not have to make another merger at Bergen.
>1. It is an 8th Avenue Train. This gives not only Culver riders but >F riders in lower Manhattan 8th Avenue service. They would no longer >have to transfer at West 4th.
Only if you lived at an express stop and you would only save time if the E came first. if the F come first and you wait for the E you might as well get on and transfer at W4 or Jay.
To add the Service you are reducing regular F service. You think people at local stops want that?
>2. The C as Culver Express would be great except it would bring >about what I call "The Jamaica Center paradox". The C running as >Culver Express would mean the E running local on the Fulton Line. If >I'm at Broadway-ENY station, we have two trains that go to Jamaica >Center, however one (the E) will take MUCH longer than the other
>(the J) to get there.
I am surpised you did not suggset the J to Parsons Via Crystie.
>3. The V as the Culver Express would bring about an unusual >situation where the two trains traveling on the same lines (F and V) >switch roles (express and local) in two different boroughs. This >does not happen anywhere in the Subway System.
That is not a reason to design service.
From what I have seen riding the 4th Avenue line during rush hours (on several occasions). The M train serves little purpose south of 36th Street. It's a waste of money running it on the West End.
>The R on the other hand isn't a particularly crowded train in >Brooklyn and in lower Manhattan these days, unless you board by the >Staten Island Ferry at Whitehall. It starts getting crowded around >Prince Street.
The R has more reverse commuters than the F or D and the R gets big passenger load in Brooklyn, loses it to transfers and then build up another load in Manhattan. Which your complaint about trains dropping out at Knigs Hway is not legitimate. During the AMs if 10 people get off there when we go out of service it is alot.
>I feel that the best thing to do is to switch the R (temporarily) to >the Brighton Line cross it over Manhattan Bridge and run it to >Continental. This would free up Q trains for their run to Queens.
Sure but you would need more R's to do it.
>Finally, having M trains run to 95th Street would make it useful.
Eventually the M will teminate at 9th ave all the time where it will not plug the road as it discharges.
>Still though isn't there anyway that the MTA could streamline >operations so that 24-7 control towers would operate where needed?
You are still just ignoring everything. The MTA HAS streamlined operations into fewer 24-7 locations.
There are also other problems with the Q.
If you are serious dig up the list of trainsets used and add and subtract where you would take them from and put them.
"...trainsets used and add and subtract..." When the R143s get into service a year or so from now a train shortage would not be a problem.
Wannabe1,
I just read your post. I did not intend to ignore what you were stated. I thought you made some pretty good points. The R does more commuters than the F, under normal circumstances. But is this the case when the Brooklyn-Manhattan Ferry is running? From what I have seen, when that ferry runs, 4th Ave local trains are not that packed. More accurately, they're more crowded on some cars than others. Still having the N go local on 4th Ave gives 4th Ave Broadway service.
As for the switching problem. I think that your analogy to the A and C at Chambers is a little flawed. During rush hours, there are 3 different A trains (Far Rock, Lefferts, and Rockaway Park) in addition to the C. In other words they're running 4 different trains on the same track! You gonna have mayhem when that happens. The closest current switching that compares to the switching I'm proposing at Bergen is the N going from express to local (and vice-versa) north of Pacific. While that does slow down service, it's not the same the chaos at the IND Chambers station.
I don't think that Culver local riders will be that upset over the loss of F trains (considering that they come sometimes one after another and then don't show for a while at times). Except for Propspect Park, 4th Ave, and maybe Carroll the local stations aren't that crowded. I don't think we'll be dealing with a wall of people in more local stations if there is an express. And with the G train going to Church, those coming home from work would have two locals.
As for the express stops: Bergen, 7th Ave, Church, as well as 179, are popular stations. I think these stations that they're all express-worthy.
Here's my Idea.
Eliminate the B
Make some D trains run local in the Bronx Rush hours & Middays.And extend the D to West 4 street.
Re open the Bergen Street lower level and have the F run express to Church Avenue.
Extend the G to Ditmas Avenue.
Extend the to Ocean Parkway.
Extend The R local to 179 street and have the F run express all times.
"Extend the G to Ditmas Avenue."
Why not Church? It is by far much easier.
"Extend The R local to 179 street and have the F run express all times."
Can't do. Car shortage.
"Extend the to Ocean Parkway."
If you mean the Brighton exp, it makes it harder to turn around. They would have to wrong-rail all the way back to Brighton Beach, plus they lose those two layup tracks coming out of Brighton beach in case something goes wrong on a switch.
Last Thursday November 1, 2001 marked the 83rd Aniversary of the worst subway wreck in history.
May all the victims RIP
Does anyone know if the tunnel where the accident occurred is operational today?
Does anyone know if the tunnel where the accident occurred is operational today?
Not in revenue service. I believe it's occasionally used for equipment moves and the like.
A couple of months ago someone on this board gave a one day advance notice that the tunnel would be in use for a 24 hour period. Oh to be living in NY again.
That was me. Manhattan-bound Brighton trains (D/Q or Q/Q, I don't remember which at the time) were scheduled to bypass Prospect Park for platform work. I took this as an indication that the Manhattan-bound platform would be closed. Indeed, when the day came, I rode two shuttles through the S-curve.
What was it like? Did you get spooked? Is it possible to see anything out the front window?
See this post. Unfortunately, it's difficult to see much out of the front of an R-68, but I did my best. Also, a correction: I only rode south through the curve.
I forget if it was 1959 or 1979. There was a train that was going slowly thru the site. It was going about 3 MPH. And it derailed. Train hit the wall in the same spot as the other train did in 1918. No major damage to the train. But the shuttle was shut down for a while until the train could be righted up.
That was on December 1, 1974 with a train of R-32s. IIRC 3669 suffered a bent frame.
I can't understand how a train going 3 miles could have sustained damage. But, it does happen.
Had it been a train of BMT standards, the tunnel wall would have sustained damage and not the train itself.:-)
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I am sorry but those two lines are just a waste! The 3 and B lines should go until full service has been restored on those subway lines. A Diamond D and Circle D can be created for rush hour service. The Rest of the R-68 can go to the (yeah you guessed it) the C line. For additonal trains per hour. The 3 line cars go to the 2 and 5 for more trains per hour. The 3 line being eliminated will enable the 2 to run express again,
Am I the only one who thinks this should be done?
As for the B, it depends on CPW local ridership. If it's sufficiently high during daytime hours, I'd keep it.
If you drop the 3, what would you do about service from 148th St?
for the 3, simple provide a shuttle or shuttle bus, nothing major, 1 or two trains
A lot of people will perceive that to be a slight to Harlem. In fact, the "3" provides a very useful terminal up there, so cancelling it, except perhaps overnight, is ill advised. It would make as much sense as cancelling the #1 in the South Ferry loop before Sept 11 happened. (The South Ferry line will be running again within 24-36 months or so).
Nothing wrong with coming up with new ideas - but this one would be shot down pretty quickly.
As to the B, well, do you want that to be permanent, or would you restore it after the Manny B's tracks open to full service in 2004?
I would rather BEEF UP the "B", running it to Bedford Park all day weekdays, and running the "D" express to Manhattan up to Noon and from 12:30 to end of evening rush back up to the Bronx. Turning it at 145th Street, well....silly.
wayne
Kind of like the 7-11 arrangement. Makes sense.
What's the 7-11 arrangement?
The 11 is a term applied to the 7 express. AFAIK the R-62As have purple 11 signs. Not sure about the Redbirds.
Ok next question, how does it apply to what the previous poster said about the D?
The 7 express runs all day. The D express in the Bronx only runs rush hours.
ok thanks I didn't understand before
The D can only be a peak-direction express due to the Concourse only having three tracks. I suppose it could run all day, inbound AM and outbound PM, but you'd have staffing and rolling stock problems...
And I'm sure things haven't changed much on the concourse in the 30 years I've been gone, but there's no stacking up of trains and minimal slowdowns and the D train's maximum use is pretty much rush hour only. The rest of the day and night, the all local run isn't all that much of a pain in the butt and goes pretty fast despite the stops. There probably STILL isn't much need for non-peak express service there.
However, running it local on CPW *would* be a pain in the butt. I hear that's been done lately.
I agree. The bottleneck at 145th due to only 1 track on the lower level when B trains terminate there needs to be eliminated. If you don't want or need extended B service to BPB, then run it to 168th St. outside the rush hours.
What bottleneck? Train leaves 145, next train due to arrive 1 minute later - no problem. Problems only exist when trains leave late or arrive early.
Exactly. If one train is late, trains get held up. My not eliminate the problem altogether by sending the B either into the Bronx or to 168th.
If I send the B to Bedford Park, the same problem exists (I know. I sit outside BP on Monday mornings from 0742 until about 0748, waiting for the 0742 to leave. It's left on time once since July). If the B goes to 168, than the C is forced back to either 145 or Bedford Park and you still have the same problem, just on another line
I meant sending the B to 168th along with the C, with nothing terminating at 145th St. The bottleneck at BPB during the rush hours is unavoidable, but this only affects a handful of people going to BPB or 205th.
Does the B and C lines run on the same headways during the rush hours? It seemed when the C was running to BPB, it ran smoother in/out of the center track at this station, with less dwell times.
The B and C were scheduled to operate every 8minutes, but I get the feeling that the B came a bit more often.
Where will your simple 1 or 2 train shuttle turn around?
There's a third track at 135th for relay procedures.
There's a third track at 135th for relay procedures.
Is there a platform in the station for this third track?
Standard shuttle move from Lenox Terminal to 135 St (early Sunday AMs):
Leave Lenox from 1 Track, stop at 145, stop at 135, Discharge. Take train to 9 car reverse marker south of 135 on 2 Track and dump (1 Track beomes 2 Track south of White Plains line merge; 4 becomes 3). Other TO takes the train north into B Track to 9 car reverse marker north of 135 on 3 Track and dumps. Original TO takes train south into 135 on 3 Track to 9 car marker, dumps. CR opens, people board, second TO takes train north to Lenox terminal.
This move requires two TOs and 1 CR and can be done in about 10 minutes providing there is no 2 train getting in the way.
This move requires two TOs and 1 CR and can be done in about 10 minutes providing there is no 2 train getting in the way.
Let's assume that they are trying to do this during rush hour as has been proposed. The #2 is running at 4 minute headways in both directions. Is this really practical?
In a word: NO!
I think the smarter idea would have been for the 2 to run from White Plains to 14 St via the express, the 3 to run from Lenox to New Lots via the local and the 1 to run VC to Flatbush via the local.
I think the smarter idea would have been for the 2 to run from White Plains to 14 St via the express, the 3 to run from Lenox to New Lots via the local and the 1 to run VC to Flatbush via the local.
I totally agree. In fact I made the same suggestion a few weeks ago.
My guess as to why this was not done is inertia. Management and the unions had to reassign 2 services with the present linup (1 & 3); running the 1 & 3 to Brooklyn would have meant reassigning all three services (1, 2 & 3). Running the 3 to Brooklyn and the 2 express to 14th would have meant better service for Bronx riders and more reliable service for Brooklyn riders. Then again, the passengers' interests don't rank high on the TA's decision matrix.
We were indeed talking about this issue right before Dave P. went away and shut down SubTalk. Strong arguments in favor of turning #2 trains at 14th Street and continuing #3 trains on to Brooklyn exist, but NYCT has its reasons for not doing so.
I'm going to attempt to explain the thinking behind these routing decisions as I understand it from talking to the planners. I'm not taking a position on their decisions, nor will I attempt to defend them (such defenses often end up taking several days, which I do not have right now, and result in circular arguments):
The interlocking plant at 14th Street (where #3 service is terminating at this time) is not a full one (at this time -- it might become one in the future). Only one switch is present instead of the preferred two, limiting the ability to turn trains. There are more #2 trains coming from the White Plains Road Line than can be efficiently turned at this location. Trains would have to be turned north of 14th Street or south of 14th Street. South of 14th Street is not feasible, since turning more than a very small number of trains at Chambers Street would tie up the road going to/coming from Brooklyn. Turning north of 14th Street (Times Square being the next logical location) is feasible but doesn't serve busy 34th Street (Penn Station) very well.
In addition, as Mr. Bauman said, sending #2 trains to 14th Street and keeping #3 trains going to Brooklyn would have resulted in more extensive service changes in Brooklyn than were brought about by the present service plan. Why change the train designation for the heavily used Nostrand Avenue Line (#2), where the same route runs 24 hours a day, while leaving the more lightly used New Lots Avenue Line (a non-24-hour-a-day route, #3) alone?
In any case, various options are being discussed internally (and I won't elaborate) that would render the whole thing moot anyway.
David
Would it really? The 1 would have replaced the 2 if it stayed express and was cut back to 14th Street like I suggested after the current 7th Avenue service plan went into effect. Replacing the 2 with the 1 in Brooklyn, would have been no more harmful than the W replacing the B and the circle-Q replacing the D in Brooklyn on July 22. Would things have been confusing at first? Every new subway change causes some degree of confusion when it first takes effect.
Let's say the 2 was cut back to 14th. If a 2 train was at 14th Street, preparing to go back to the Bronx, couldn't someone in the Master Tower for the 7th Avenue line alert the crew on the train that another 2 train is at, say 42nd Street? Couldn't the person in the tower let the crew know that another train is on its way down and for them to get their train up and running? That way they could keep 2 trains moving in and out of 14th Street without causing delays on the express tracks.
Thanks for remembering the discussion about the relative merits of having the 3 instead of the 2 going to Brooklyn. I do find some of the arguments you presented have some technical shortcomings.
Only one switch is present instead of the preferred two, limiting the ability to turn trains. There are more #2 trains coming from the White Plains Road Line than can be efficiently turned at this location. Trains would have to be turned north of 14th Street or south of 14th Street.
According to the August 2001 timetables that were on the MTA website, the #2 headway is 5-8 minutes and the #3 headway is 6-8 minutes. It should not be difficult to turn a service at 5 minute headways in the single pocket at 14th St. Assuming that it takes at most 2 minutes to clear the interlocking north of the station (probably closer to 90 seconds), then that would leave 3 minutes for the #2 in the station vs. 4 minutes for the #3. The difference is not significant because any rapid transit service should be able to turn around a train within 3 minutes.
Turning north of 14th Street (Times Square being the next logical location) is feasible but doesn't serve busy 34th Street (Penn Station) very well.
You seem to hint that Times Sq might be the last station. If the switch bewteen 42nd and 34th were used, then Penn Sta would be the last stop.
There is very little downtown service provided by the express at Penn Sta with the current arrangement - only 14th St. It's not like the normal configuration with the downtown express providing the bulk of the access to the Financial District. While turning the trains at Penn Sta is not necessary, it would not be catastrophic because the locals provide downtown access.
Why change the train designation for the heavily used Nostrand Avenue Line (#2), where the same route runs 24 hours a day, while leaving the more lightly used New Lots Avenue Line (a non-24-hour-a-day route, #3) alone?
You may wish to check the station counts. According to "Better Transit for Brooklyn" Table 4, p. 8 the New Lots Line has 22% more daily passengers.
Again: I am presenting arguments, not making them. I will not attempt to defend the arguments.
However, I will say two things.
#1 - Mr. Bauman is correct in his assertion that a train should be able to be relayed within three minutes. However, as usual, he fails to take into account the employee-safety-necessitated rule that trains be cleared of passengers before relaying.
#2 - While the numbers presented in the report Mr. Bauman cited jibe with the numbers I've got, what Mr. Bauman may not realize is that NYCT's definition of "New Lots Avenue Line," and thus what was used in the report, includes the Utica Avenue, Kingston Avenue, and Nostrand Avenue stations. I should have been clearer in my use of the term "New Lots Avenue Line," which, for my purposes, encompasses only the stations between New Lots Avenue (the terminal) and Saratoga Avenue (after which the line changes to a four-track express/local line). The three stations (Utica, Kingston, and Nostrand, which are really under Eastern Parkway and which I considered to be part of the Eastern Parkway Line for this effort) account for approximately 35,000 weekday passengers, more than half of the New Lots Avenue Line's total of 66,000 or so. Thus, I stand by my previous statement, that the Nostrand Avenue Line is busier than the New Lots Avenue Line. (Of course, the fact that only Seventh Avenue service operates to/from New Lots Avenue for most of the day, while both Seventh Avenue and Lexington Avenue service operates to/from Flatbush Avenue, must be considered as well -- I don't have a passenger split available, though it's my understanding that the split is in favor of the Lexington Avenue Line. Then again, I don't know how many passengers boarding at the elevated New Lots Avenue Line stations transfer to Lexington Avenue service at Utica Avenue, either, though my educated guess is that it's significant.)
David
#1 - Mr. Bauman is correct in his assertion that a train should be able to be relayed within three minutes. However, as usual, he fails to take into account the employee-safety-necessitated rule that trains be cleared of passengers before relaying.
According to the track map on this site the switch is north of the 14th St Station. No relaying operation south of the 14th St station should be necessary or even possible.
The only benefit for a move south of the station would be for a layup. I don't think it would be advisable to take trains out of service at 14th St during the rush hour peak. I'd expect all trains would be sent back uptown to serve uptown bound passengers entering at Penn Sta. Layups after rush hour peaks makes some sense, but there would be longer headways at that time.
#2 - While the numbers presented in the report Mr. Bauman cited jibe with the numbers I've got, what Mr. Bauman may not realize is that NYCT's definition of "New Lots Avenue Line," and thus what was used in the report, includes the Utica Avenue, Kingston Avenue, and Nostrand Avenue stations.
Thank you for that clarification. I was not aware of the TA's definition for the New Lots Line. Logically, I would think that Kingston and Nostrand should be included on the New Lots Line because their service is identical to the stations east of Utica. The distinguishing feature for the Eastern Parkway Line would be that both local services were combined.
I stand corrected as to the location of the 14th Street switch. This, of course, takes clearing the train out of the equation. Nevertheless, as I've said twice, and will say now for the third time, my place here is not to defend reasoning behind the routing, just to report it.
David
David:
The New Lots line is from New Lots to Sutter Ave. As a PM C/R along that normally work the line as well as live by the line my entire life, I can assure that you are correct. In the late night hours(#4 train), the bulk of passengers after Franklin gets off at Utica(Eastern Pky line). During the daytime hours,(#1 train) the heavy stations are:
Pennsylvania Ave: Two High Schools, numerous public schools. High two-fare zone station.
Rockaway Ave: Two-fare zone station.
Saratoga Ave: Brookdale Hospital.
Sutter Ave: (Rush Hours only) High two fare-zone station(the B78, which btw doesnt run after 11:30pm)
Two of the stations on the list:Sutter and Pennsylvania, are two fare zone stations but the buses that connect to these stations are not 24 hour buses. Late night customers most likely have to get off somewhere else to get home. For Sutter, most get off at Utica anyway to grab the B17 or the B46 buses which both duplicate the B78 for the most part. IDK about the Starrett City pax, maybe try to get to Penn Ave before the last B20/83 buses or take it to New Lots to grab the B6 which is the nearest bus to the neighborhood.
All the buses along the Nostrand line, with the exception of the B11 are 24hr buses. Only President and Newkirk have the least pax drop off along the line.
These are from personal observations.
No, it's quite impossible. These shuttles would invariably delay # 2 trains.
I agree with the 3 disappearing. Having the 2 run its normal route would be great, and a 3 shuttle would be a good idea. The 1 could still run local in Manhattan. As for the D diamond, I'm not too sure. I've always thought that diamond service should be express in one direction (like the 5 and 6 in the Bronx or the 7 in Queens). I believe they should not be like the Q diamond in Brooklyn. To people visiting NYC, that could be very confusing. What they could do is run the B only during rush hours.
The question has already been raised here.
The 2 would save eight minutes if it ran express. In exchange, the 119,291 daily passengers (1999 average) from local stations (plus those at 59th, not included in this count) would have to wait twice as long for a train. It's simply not worth it.
If you want to eliminate the 2 local, start by doubling 1 service south of 96th.
(I find it interesting that you'd give the 3's cars to the 2 and 5, not to the 1, when the primary service you'd be cutting is the local in Manhattan.)
Am I the only one who thinks this should be done?
I'd rather the R68s go to the N...
"I'd rather the R68s go to the N..."
Why? There are other cars in need of them, the N has enough don't you think?
Not 68s... The N used to be only 68s now, it's a surprise every time...
No the N doesn't have enough R68's. In fact it has fewer than it used to. If other lines need cars, why can't they get slant-R40's or R32's?
The 7 avenue line is a long line.Even though I agree I don't think some people will be happy about that.
For the B:SIONARA
There already is a Diamond D and a Circle D - we call the former D and the latter B. Calling them Circle and Diamond will not accomplish much -they'll still need to be split at 34 St; the only riders to see an improvement will be along the Grand Concourse.
Today on three separate trips, I and my B train followed right behind a C local on CPW and found all the stations crowded; apparently, everyone wanted to go to 6th Ave today.
I'm surprised they didn't get on the first train to arrive and change at 59th to a B or D, whichever happened to come first.
That would make sense, but we're talking about the riding public of NYC - sense is NOT their strong suit.
I've had people at Rock Center curse me out because my southbound B didn't make the connection with their southbound F (Give me one good reason why it should have).
Upon resumption of 'normal' service on 10/28, I had people screaming because I suggested they take the N/R to 8th St since the W was terminating at Pacific. They wanted to know why they should take the ****ing LOCAL. The fact that 8th St is a local stop didn't seem to affect them.
Give me time and I can do more; these are fairly recent occurances.
Don't you hate it when that happens? I'm 15 so people don't think I'm a reliable source of information so they never ask me and they end up asking some moron who doesn't know what they're talking about and it's so funny to hear their answers...
I know what you mean. Back when I was in high school, around 1976, I was on a Queens bound M train around Canal Street, when an elderly lady asked me how to get to Radio City Music Hall. I told her to get off at Delancy Street and change for the uptown F train. She just waved her hand in disgust, and I said "F--- you, next time don't ask me, then". I got the last laugh though, when I saw the look of horror on her face when we came out on to the Williamsburgh Bridge heading for Marcy Avenue!
Actually, I did tell the lady "Essex Street", not Delancy, for anybody who caught that.
Haha, I don't get why she would wave her hand in disgust though. She asked you for directions and then she's like, I don't like your directions... what's wrong with people...
Chances are she didn't hear what she wanted to hear.
They don't trust me to give reliable info, and I work there.
Some people just don't know how to ride the subway. You know how I feel about locals bypassing local stations, but we all know it happens on occasion. If you're waiting for a specific one of multiple local trains, it couldn't hurt to ride the first local to the next express stop just in case.
Perhaps your B should have caught the F, but that's not in your control. Maybe the TW/O decided not to hold the F for the B; maybe the F was supposed to wait but it didn't; maybe the TW/O was asleep and should have held the F but didn't. But what did they expect you to do about it?
On a 2 train between 42nd and 50th, I offered to help a man who was staring at the maps. I confirmed that, despite what the maps, signs, and automated announcements claimed, we were running local. (Just at that point the C/R piped in to announce the 72-96 express run due to the weekend GO.) He had trouble believing me even though the train stopped at 50th and 59th. At 66th he thanked me and hopped off. If he was going to 66th and he was so certain the train was an express, why did he get on (or remain on) at 42nd?
Original Post
I've had people at Rock Center curse me out because my southbound B didn't make the connection with their southbound F (Give me one good reason why it should have).
Your response
Perhaps your B should have caught the F, but that's not in your control. Maybe the TW/O decided not to hold the F for the B; maybe the F was supposed to wait but it didn't; maybe the TW/O was asleep and should have held the F but didn't. But what did they expect you to do about it?
My Clarification
It was MY southbound B - I was operating. We were sitting at Rock Ctr when the southbound F arrived. People coming off the F cursing at me because the doors closed before they could get on. Now the question: why is anyone transferring from an F to a B southbound at Rockefeller Center? Two stops on the F take just as long as two stops on the B.
Oh -- these people wanted to transfer from the F to the B? I guess that makes so little sense that I assumed they wanted to transfer the other way. If anything, the F is faster (since there's a chance your B would have to wait for another B to leave the station).
The bottom line is: PEOPLE ARE MORONS!!!
They just don t want to see and hear. Why did nature give us 2 eyes, 2 ears and only one mouth?
We have two eyes for depth perception, two ears for direction. Why would anyone need a second mouth? Well, maybe to eat and talk at the same time. The layout of the face has been around longer than man's ability to speak.
I'm not saying this is the reason or that it is a good reason but here's a guess. Coming in from Queens, especially at rush hour the F is PACKED! When it comes into Rock Center with a B/D the B/D usually is much less crowded. Sometimes there aren't even standees, therefore, packed in F passengers want to get more comfortable. Once or twice I almost tried to jump over to a B/D from an F at 42nd b/c I couldn't take the cursing and arguing that was going on in my F.
Hopefully,you were only going to 34/6. If you were travelling further south on 6th Ave, it ain't worth it.
Right of course I was only going to 34th, for a Q out to Brighton {one of them}
If you think this is funny, go to 59th Street/Columbus Circle during the weekday morning rush. More than a hundred people transfer from a southbound B to the Sothbound D across the platform and vice versa. Yes, the D usually gets to depart the station to gain access to 53rd Street before the D, but I don't believe most commuters know that.
Meant before the B.
Currently, I'm there (Columbus Circle) 5 times on one day of the week; come next pick, I'll be there 3 days, 11 times. The commuting mentality never ceases to amaze me.
Maybe they still think the 'B' goes express down 6th Avenue and to Brooklyn like it did before July 22. Some people STILL haven't adjusted to these official changes, let alone the emergency ones put into place in September.
People still look utterly confused to see an R-32 train signed as on orange 'S' running local on 6th Avenue.
i love the idiots who rush off the northbound F at Broadway/Lafayette to catch an "express" across the platform. One day I'll follow one of these people to see the expression on their face when the train gets to Grand St.
What about the ones who hop off the downtown local at 14th Street onto the 3 waiting across the platform? Or to those who stand all day waiting for something to pull in on the uptown express track?
Yes, I did see these people. My favorite is watching lost tourists get off at Chambers St on the Nassau St. line, to x-fer to an "express" on the center tracks. LOL.
The other night I gave a customer the travel directions they wanted. They called me a liar and asked the nearby police officer who told them to see me. They replied that I gave them (customer )wrong info. The police officer then told them "They gave you the right uinformation". The customer then proceeded to call the officer a liar for agreeing with me and left the system.
They probably didn't hear what they wanted to hear.
Wait a second. They reported you to a cop because they though you gave them incorrect instructions? Morons ...
I know how you felt.
I'm training to be a T/O in Stockholm. This past Wednesday, I was operating an extra as part of my training, with an instructor beside me.
Being inexperienced, I forgot to flip the little wheels in my cab that light up the correct destination on the signs on the platform. (My train was going to Akalla, and should have lit up "11 Akalla" on the platform, but I was putting up "10 Hjulsta" instead.) The second stop northbound is the major interchange at T-Centralen.
I stop and open the doors, and having noted my error, I immediately step out of the cab and begin announcing that the train is going to Akalla.
Does anybody believe me? OF COURSE NOT! I'm standing there announcing "Train to Akalla, to Akalla, to Akalla..." over and over again on the loudspeakers, and the passengers are milling around on the platform, uncertain what to do. I hear comments like "But the sign says 'Hjulsta'!"
Geez, people, wouldn't you suppose that since I'm at the controls, I might have a tiny clue WHERE the fscking train is going?
Grrr.
(Otherwise, I'm having a lot of fun with my training!)
-- Tim Kynerd
At least they read the signs.
Good point. Hadn't thought of it that way. :-)
But not always. I've operated short turns on light rail trains here, correctly signed at both ends, and made several announcements before reaching the point at which the train goes out of service, and STILL had to chase people off the train at the last station.
(BTW, for the interested, I have a Web site with photos of Stockholm transit at http://www.kynerd.nu. What I have marked as "the line I work on" is the light rail line where I worked before starting my subway training.)
Regards,
Tim
Apparently, this is a world-wide phenomenon. On the weekends, i work on a short line and at the last stop i have to always ask people to get off the train. Most do with no problem, but there are always the stubborn ones who have to argue, scream, curse and threaten before complying.
Geez. At least Swedes are too repressed to scream and curse, unless there's a delay in service.
I operated my first regular turn on the subway yesterday (Thursday; it's Friday morning here) with a more experienced driver. What a blast!
-- Tim
Was it a C20? I hear those articulated cars are nice. They have a nice-looking exterior design. I sure would like to see a similar-looking car in service here in New York!
I was operating both C20 and older (called "Cx", can be of various types, the train I had yesterday had C8s at both ends) stock.
I think the C20 is terrific both to operate and to ride in, but then I have a history as a software consultant, so I'm not bothered by the fact that each car contains 99 separate computers.... ;-)
The C20 also has better acceleration and braking than our older stock. It is a tad difficult to stop them smoothly, which is something I'm still working on.
Regards,
Tim
To make the B more useful, much more useful, it can switch onto the local tracks before 34th Street. The 6th Avenue Shuttle and later the V (which would come from the 63rd St tunnel, not the 53rd as the TA is planning) can terminate at 34th. The B would continue on the local tracks to the Chrystie St connection then run across the Willy B to Metropolitan Avenue. This was something I saw on the CCS website (www.communityconsulting.org) in their report on transit improvements in Brooklyn and I think it's well worth considering.
Could work
Running an extended B over the Willy B and to Metropolitan is impractical. The Myrtle Ave spur really needs only 7 or 8 TPH during the rush hours for adequate service. This is inadequate for CPW and Concourse local ridership.
I wish they'd sever the damn Essex St/B'way Lafayette connection permanently so other people would stop coming up with plans to use this connection. It failed once, it'll fail again, and no proposed plan to use it would be completely satisfactory. If J/M riders want 6th Ave service, x-fer to the F at Essex.
A Diamond D and Circle D can be created for rush hour service.
What does changing the signs solve apart from confusing people more?
The 3 line being eliminated will enable the 2 to run express again
Why should the 2 run express. Local service is more important than express service. Trains should run local until there is enough service, then excess service should run express.
The crowds at the local stations clearly demonstrate that the 1 alone is not enough. I guess you never rode the 1/9 before September 11.
I could care less about the B,but if the 3 goes then what's going to serve 148 and 145 street?
Last Tuesday evening, got on R train at Court Street for 5 stop trip to 9th Street....When we got to DeKalb, I thought I heard an announcement the train would be making only express stops to 36th Street but was not sure...got to Pacific Street still on local track but then I heard the conductor say the next stop would be 36th Street.
Now I don't understand why they would send a train on the local track and skip several statins which obviously some passengers wanted. I hard to wait about 6 more minutes for the next R train to arrive.
This makes no sense if they are sending the train on the local track anyway. Why would they suddenly do this and disenfranchise the passengers who wanted the stops they suddently decided to skip? And for what, to save 2 minutes.......
No sense at all....
Jaguar,
Reason why they skip those stations sometimes is that the timetable has already been sooo severely disrupted that they have to sacrifice several train's local "orders", despite being on the local track---and they, actually have no choice, see...there's no crossover south of 36th street that's going to switch to 4th Avenue local before 45th Street--the nearest crossover that late in the game per se, would be the one that switches the express track (I think B4) to B2 (S/B Local---aka "R") PAST 59th Street. Hope this answers (some of) your questions.
Stuart, RLine86Man
While there is no crossover that will allow a train on the express to crossover south of 36th, there is one just to the north of 36th. They could of had it run on the express track and send it back to the local just before 36th street.
Why bother.
Everytime extra switches are thrown during rush hour there are more chances for stupid things to happen.
When you are running express on the local, the road ahead is clear, if you swich tracks you may start plugging another line.
It's F4 and F2. Tracks B4 and B2 end at DeKalb Avenue.
They pull that stunt on the 1 almost every rush hour (or at least they did when the 2 ran express), and the 1 local stops have many more riders than the R local stops.
The only reason that I could see them doing this to an R is because the schedule has been so severly messed up that it needs to catch up. They do this with the N on occasion because there might be a W on the express just coming in from the bridge. Instead of making the N wait for the express track to clear, they just make it go express on the local track.
The Brighton lcl almost once a day runs exp from Prospect Park to Kings Hwy or Kings Hwy to Sheepshed Bay, or occasionally both to catch up. No GOs.
A similar experience was felt on the Flushing line from Times Square to Queensboro Plaza.
In the first-half hour of 10 o'clock in the morning on a Sunday many weeks ago, my mom, brother, and I boarded a R33 single to get to 40 St. Thinking this train would do the usual, I slumped on the bench-seating inside the train.
The next thing I know, the conductor comes on the P/A and says that we will be skipping Vernon-Jackson Avs., Hunters Pt. Av., and 45 Rd. - Courthouse Sq.
Ooh, boy, that stretch from Grand Central to Queensboro Plaza was probably the longest one I've ever experienced on the 7. (I don't get to ride the 7 that much)
Of course, the motorman honked his horn (it sounds just like the R46 horn, I've noticed that some trains have a jumbled up sounding horn)
around 6 times in increments of 3 each station it passed.
The passengers on these three platforms were standing there wondering what our train was doing.
But after Queensboro Plaza, everything was back to normal local weekend service to Main St.
I might guess this happened because of "Timetable Discrepancy", because that's what everybody here is talking about.
1) How often might this happen on the 7?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete
I was on a 7 that did that last week. Some lady really flipped her wig yelling at the T/O from outside the front of the train at QP - saying there was no announcement... which there was... funny thing is the 5 minutes she spent standing there venting woulda been muuuuch better spent just walking down the stairs and catchig the next train... she'd probably have lost 4-5 minutes instead of the 10 whining and riding back...
guess she was in a rush...
...right.....
"it sounds just like the R46 horn"
Why shouldn't it sound like an R-46 horn. Both are Wabco pneuphonic horns.
I just mentioned that some are jumbled up, but that may be rare.
Also:
I've been noticing that some NJ TRANSIT Arrow EMU's have been losing their "tone" of their horns. Some of them are too low-pitched, and sound like a foghorn, some are too high-pitched, and some sound just like a regular Arrow III horn.
Any reasons for this defect?
Railfan Pete.
I've noticed that the R-46, R-68, and R-68A cars have basically the same kind of horn, but the Slanty R-40's have a much higher-pitched horn. What kinds of horns do those four car types have?
- Lyle Goldman
They all use the same WABCO horn. The only differences in sound perceptions are the result of different mounting positions. Speaking of which, those who complained about the horns on the LIRR DE & DM30s would love the horns on the Acela. I got off the train at Hunters Point and an Acela passed under the overpass entering Line #2. The horn is the loudest I've heard yet on any loco.
You got that right, TD. The other day I was visiting friends in Attleboro, MA, about a half-mile from the main line. We were inside with the windows closed. An Acela Express blew one blast as it passed through Attleboro station, and it sounded like it was right outside the house.
Redbirds have whistles; the R46 have air horns. Are you sure they are the same? They've never even sounded remotely the same to me.
Listen to Train Dude. He knows the kinks. If he says both are WABCO horns, then they are WABCO horns. He's a full time worker of NYCT and he knows everything about subway cars.
I've listened to an R36 horn. It sounds just like an R46 horn. You may have heard it differently because not all trains have the exact "mounting positions", as TD has mentioned in his other post within this thread.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Pete, I, too, am a full-time worker for NYCT. I actually operate the trains that TrainDude is in charge of. While I know TD knows more about them than I do, he has been known to occasionally make a mistake (much like all the rest of us, myself included). He has also many times mentioned that his knowledge of the IRt is less than complete; hence my question. When I sound the horn on an R46, it sounds nothing like the whistle of a redbird.
IIRC the horns on the Redbirds sound an octave higher than those on the R-46s.
When I sound the horn on an R46, it sounds nothing like the whistle of a redbird.
I'm not saying every Redbird has a horn that sounds like a R46.
The Redbird (R36) that I was on many months ago to Main St. that made the express run sounded identical to the one on the R46.
Trust me. I've heard them both.
One R46 E train at 34 ST. Penn Sta., and the Redbird.
Railfan Pete.
I rode on a couple of 7s making battery runs during my visit two weeks ago. The first was on Monday, the same day I flew in. I was out at Flushing Meadow Park taking pictures, mostly of the old NY State Pavilion and towers from the World's Fair, and the train I caught for Manhattan skipped 111th and 104th Sts. No announcements were made. Then on Thursday the 25th, while railfanning with Wayne et al, we got a Flushing-bound train at 74th St. which stopped only at Junction Blvd and Main St. This time, the C/R repeated the announcement several times. There had been police activity on the 7 and they were trying to restore some semblance of normalcy. It took some doing just to get to 74th St; at Times Square we found out the 7 was out, so we took the shuttle to GCT, only to find the 7 was still out. So we took a 6 to 51st and changed to the E, letting a crush-loaded train pass first. Luckily, we ran express to Roosevelt Ave. Once we got to 74th St., we must have waited a good 15 minutes for a train while expresses kept going by. We were supposed to meet Thurston and Lou from Brooklyn at Main St. at 3:15, and we were a half hour late. They were still waiting for us when we got there.
The other day I was on a 7 express on the local which was at some point passed by the 7 express on the express. This made no sense since the train was ordered to do this before departing Queensboro Plaza: It could have used the express track and saved me the hassle of overshooting my stop (she didn't make the announcement until after closing the rear section; When boarding a train on the local track at Woodside you expect it to run local).
That is bad operation. I don't move until the C/R reopens and makes the announcement or tell Control I will make one more local and make the announcement if I am already moving when they tell me to skip.
And I appreciate this sort of thoughtfulness.
> tell Control I will make one more local
Can you do that?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes and no. I was terrified of control until I realized they are idiots. There is one guy on the midnights that is OK and a woman on the AMs, the rest are morons. They give permission to key home signals and don't even check with the tower (incorrect and DANGEROUS).
They tend to be too conservative no battreies even if you are 30 min late on the midnights or reckless like the other example.
Remember they can't 'see' me, at least not yet on the IND/BMT so they don't know where I am when they tell me that. They don't want people complaining. I don't say well I want to make more local stops I actaully say I was on the move when I heard that I need to make another local to let people get off so no one complains. That so no one complains part really helps. One C/R refused to reopen and after a minute I gave up but he too was a moron. They movd the board so he refused to open (OK he is probational too) but he did it at the same stop every trip even after the other C/R's told him it was down for repairs. Every trip I had to call the tower for a person to tell him to open. The fact that he could see me at the other end of the station menat nothing to him EVERY DAMN TRIP. The first time my radio hada bad battery and the IC did not work, I was begging him on the PA to open as people were banging on my door.
Heh. I enjoyed that one - what you've seen actually isn't a new problem either - but at least you don't have to walk half the train back to the middle to tell the guy that you did INDEED hit your mark and nobody's going to step off into a hole. We had radios, but they only seemed to work out in broad daylight. As soon as you got deep into the tunnel, the troublesome stations were always in the dead spots. Thanks for the chuckle - some things never change. :)
It was humiliating and beaks one of my rules. The only thing worth begging for is sex.
Hahahaha ... I tell ya, I enjoyed your other comments on WHY things are down under ... one of the reasons for my continuing flippance here is having done it and wondering (much like Train dude) why there aren't more internships at the MTA ... it'd cure a LOT of "here's what I'd run" completely ignorant of what it does to charge up and do it. Heh.
And when I've read over the past couple of years such things as "salute the wood" and so on coming out of the adminiswigs, it just has me rolling on the floor and damned grateful I no longer possess a cutting key or my church key. I'm a peaceful soul, but from what I'd read, I'd carry a sidearm these days, ready to USE it. :)
Back in the very early 70's, running the road was a chore and all sorts of new toys were coming onto the railroad where some of us lived without dynamic braking, had to open the doors by climbing out the car, had to start breaking BEFORE entering the station and were allowed to "wrap it" as long as the tracks were straight in front of us and yellow balls meant something was about to go wrong up ahead.
In my day, it was green over green all the way (and we had MUCH more TPH than now, and you wouldn't see a yellow until you hit the timers north of Prospect (well yeah, outer markers for stations but they cleared LONG before you got to them) and the only timers to speak of on Brighton north to da Bronx was the Prospect Park area, the bridge, W4th, coming into 59th, 103rd and into Tremont. Others on the downgrades going back ... you just wrapped it and went.
You stopped on your mark and the conductor actually KNEW where the proper place on each platform was and didn't have to look for the jailbars. They *KNEW* their spot ... yipe.
All I can say is glad I ain't with the show now. :)
The old timers say that back in the 70's there were NO conductor's boards on the L. That must've been interesting.
Vandalism was in its prime in those days ... conductors would spot "Greek 167" splashed on the pole at 42nd, or the Adams gumball machine at 7th Ave or "gasp! there's the bottom of the STAIRWAY!" ... conductors KNEW where the 10 car marker was hit and what should be in their face if the jailbars weren't ...
I mean, c'mon ... visitors and fomares may not know where your stop was as a conductor, but after how many trips in both directions, per day, per week? Newbies would be screwed if the jailbars were missing, but if they paid attention to their trainer, they picked it up quick and didn't drop geese into the trash compactor. :)
Yeah, you'd figure after a while you'd start recognizing certain features at certain stations that would tell you it's OK to open up.
Ah, the good old days....
ARGH.
That is the other thing 40 TPH. You tell these yutzes that it no longer works like that and you get 'The system was designed for it', 'look at the leaving end signals'. The fact that you are conga lined at 27 TPH means nothing or that you can't key automatics at will anymore.
I remember two trains in the station all the time. Now you need a complete lineup in.
The wood is good! I had a total break failure the C/R opened up on an overrun. He was a senior man on a pick job.
Wowsers ... jailbars were the rule a long time ago - I guess actually being out between cars had its advantages. I'm also guessing there's no "Beulah the buzzer" for an overrun these days either? buzz-buzz-buzz wasn't just a drug induced stupor. :)
And yeah, it was a brake failure that got me at CIY ... "you broke it, you bought it." I shake my head in disbelief ... it's not like you don't get to know your route pretty quickly, even as a monkey in the middle.
It's kind of difficult as I am on probation and at least one person here actually knows what I look like (not that I think they would bang me in). TSSes actually read this board so I am skimpy on certain details.
As it turned out, I pretty much did the right thing (I did not give all the details) it was the C/R that messed up. Supervision and fellow employees were there and said nothing, it was a station with a tower and I was so intent on stopping the train I noticed little else.
I have had problems and the C/Rs have covered so I just made sure no one got hurt and did something that covered for the C/R before we called it in.
Unfortunately the TSS in my school car did not give us the ways to get out of trouble, I sort of had to guess at them.
"Left to your own devices" isn't a new thing - back in the mass wave of retirements that caused conductors who were on the road for a few weeks to turn up in motor instructor land times, we also got the "sheet through the goose" method of training and I'm convinced it too was motivated by the same "OK, genius" mentality you see today. They were in such a hurry to post us that training sure wasn't all it could be.
When I lost air on a layup, I didn't know that throwing the reverser and trying to pull all the power you could was an option - they told us that it would do a lot of damage and not to even try it. And yes, I overshot a couple of times myself the first week. Tremont southbound on the D was not a fun stop. Took several trips before I hit the mark just right.
And yeah, when you're trying to stop, DCO isn't immediately on your mind until the holy sheet moment. I DO understand. Amazingly, the job isn't as easy as it looks. Glad you guys are at least looking out for one another. :)
Now you overshoot you get retrained, you do it again you get canned.
But if you are late some TSSes will threaten to wrtie you up for improper operation (apparently they can't).
I think I only had DC1 which is my side, we opened on the other and I think I would have to be in the number 2 end for that to work. The D8 should work too but that might be in the number 2 end also. I was trying to save the stop because there was a homeball there, in retrospect I should have placed it in emergency with my handle, the deadman did not work either and emergency was slow and so was the cord. The more I think about this the luckier I should consider myself. At a terminal I would have been dead.
Yep you can go into reverse but you have to flip the CC before you take power the other way or so they say (that really makes no sense). I did ask about that exact situation in schoolcar but I think that is one you have to practice (or grow a third hand) and I have a death grip on the deadman.
Heh. One advantage of the prewar cars is they were nice and SIMPLE. DCO disabled both sides and you had it on both ends (since you could light either cab in those cars) ... not all breakers were present on both ends though. The ones that MATTERED were. :)
But yeah, there was a hell of a lag between dumping and actual grabbing. I'm sure that hasn't changed much either and with the cinderblock shoes they're using nowadays, I'll bet there's a whole lot LESS grab than there used to be.
The cord and other BIEs give a very smooth and slow stop.
Heh. Even THAT didn't happen fast enough and this is back in the days of cast iron "footwear" and not the blimpie breads they're using now. I can imagine geese don't go through the storm doors anymore with the composites down there now. Used to be fun seeing how far we could toss the foamer ahead of the train on a dump while rolling. :)
I hear the R-10s were the ultimate power brakers.
I hear the R-10s were the ultimate power brakers.
The maximum stopping distance spec for the R1-9's was 250 feet; the spec for the R10's was 275 feet - a 10% degradation.
The ultimate power braker title would have to go to the Bluebirds and their track brakes. Conventional emergency braking rate is in the 3-4 mph/sec range. The Blubirds emergency braking rate was 7 mph/sec. That would place its maximum stopping distance in the 125 foot range.
The closest I came to experiencing such braking came while riding a PCC on Boston's Highland Branch. Some golfer decided to play through at Woburn and the driver hit the emergency brake while travelling at close to maximum attainable speed. I was standing near the rear door and was thrown to the front of the car. I still remember that incident after nearly 40 years.
That would have been Waban on the Highland Branch. Woburn is northwest of Boston, on the Lowell commuter rail line, and home to the new Anderson Regional Transportation Center.
Yes, it was Waban. Thanks for the correction.
I stand corrected.
SMEE had its benefits ... dump one of those, and they'd be picking you out of the bulkhead. Heh. Never ran an R-10, rode in plenty of them though. They WERE able to stop. :)
Yeah, especially when a southbound A train would come screaming into 42nd St. after that runaway downhill dash from 59th St. They stopped on a dime every time. Never saw one overshoot the platform.
It HAS happened ... but the trick southbound on the dash is you got your yellows like clockwork just south of 72 and if you didn't let off and give her some air, there was a TOWER at 59th that wanted to have you breathe in their faces. And it was at the NORTH end of the other platform. You just didn't go there. :)
And though I didn't work 8th Ave, rode it all the time - GT's were waiting on your bones there too into 42 ... at rush with the E's cutting in, it got ridiculous too. That was the slowest part of the railroad back before the REST of the system came down to that speed.
I still remember that prewar A train I caught once at 59th. Southbound, not northbound (bummer). When it started up, I was serenaded by a heavenly harmonious double gear moan a major third apart. Once the train reached the point where the crash wall between the express tracks started, the bull and pinion gears reverted to the familiar one-pitch whine, singing out a resounding F# below middle C and rapidly rising. I don't remember how high the gears got up to on the downhill sprint; chances are the train was coasting. It stopped on a dime at 42nd, and I got off very, very reluctantly. That was one of the very few prewar A trains I ever rode on.
P. S. I got an R-7/9 LL train once whose bull and pinion gears sounded the same way - two pitches a third apart. I also noticed that phenomenon on the District Line in London.
They'd still groan in coast - just a little less forceful. The LoV's had that kinda sound to them as well. I remember when the redbirds and the 32's first started showing up and the "whirr" was unnatural. :)
I had a little tete-a-tete myself the other day, but I just missed overrunning.
I came into ENY southbound on the A and took some brake..........and got NOTHING! So I put it to coast hoping to reset whatever was wrong then put it in full service. Oh gee look, I actually got 40 lbs. I put the cab out, but the first doorpanel somehow stayed in. Considering that my train was packed, you could have imagined what I would have had to go through if I had sailed out.
Called Control, picked up a TSS at Euclid, he took a full service brake and got 30 lbs., immediately taken out of service at Grant Av. Considering the headways of Far Rockaway service, the geese weren't pleased. Told 'em the brakes worked as often as a wino, they still didn't wanna hear it.
I hope it was not 4107 in the consist.
No, it was a R44......car 5414.
CIYD GOH! Figures.
The one good thing about the CI GOH R44's is that they have very very quick closing doors.
No need to pay a dentist for an extraction, just get in the way of the doors on these. Of course you may lose more than you'd planned.
At least it was not Utica. From, my expreiences it seems like Uitca on the A is a "fast" station. Whether on the R44 or R38, the T/O brakes WAAAYYYY before they come into the station.
Was it an R44? I assume it was. Between the size of the cabs vs. the size of me and the lousy unpredictable brakes of the R44, I will never work the A line until those cranky cars are retired. It is unfortunate. There are lots of great paying jobs over there for me with not that much cab time.
>>>>>Was it an R44?
Of course it was.
>>>>>>It's kind of difficult as I am on probation and at least one person here actually knows what I look like (not that I think they would bang me in).
Oh c'mon. I would never bang you in.................if you greased my palm. Dolla dolla bill ya'll.
You are asking for a poison tamale. I only hesitate becasue that little old lady is so sweet, I'd hate to think of her in the big house for your murder.
A poison tamale? What is that, one that's loaded with ex-lax?
That day with the tamales, the guys in the Q room acted like even looking at tamales would give them the runs.
I think the regualr ones have exlax.
Nothing personal I have to poison you so no one learns I am really .....(Batman, Moon Knight, the Red Skull, Elvis, ...)
Well when you're switching, you can take a chance with the tamales. If I was on the road, I'd have to take a pass on 'em myself.
And don't worry, your Elvis secret is safe with me.
You are asking for a poison tamale. I only hesitate becasue that little old lady is so sweet, I'd hate to think of her in the big house for your murder.
Doesn't the T/O have access to doors as well?
Yes, but the C/R has to De-Zone first. Plus, if it's a half-width cab, he can only open the doors on the right side.
There is a poor calibre of dispatcher in the control center because it is so crazy to work down there, most of them are very snooty on the radio or don't have a clue as to what is going on. They can't make it as a train operator or terminal dispatcher, so they go downtown. The good guys on the road are too smart to go down there! These guys would never make it as air traffic controllers....Then again, and maybe I'm grumpy after 22 years, there is a poor calibre of dispatchers period. These new guys are absolutely clueless. And they lie as to the on time performance and screw the men out of their pay just to have an on time railroad. Case in point: last nite on my last trip, there was hand throw switch trouble entering the yard, and I had to hold one station away. He clocked us in 5 minutes late. That was b.s. since I was still at the previous station at the time he said I arrived at the terminal. My conductor and I balked, but he was pretty cool, he completely ignored us and put his head back into the sheets. Sure we could have put in the time we said we arrived, but he would have then denied the claim. Now I have to do the hassle of making out the wage shortage claim, fast forward to perhaps going downtown on my own time for a grievance hearing. The dispatcher is the judge and the jury. The TA will believe him and not us as to the arrival time.
Yes, I was told that you are not allowed to go out more than 10 minutes late that technically it is an ABD, it happens all the time on the MID. Now as a crew you don't get a break becasue you go out as an extra but as a newbie it sucks to get questioned by every tower (before they lie anyway) and yelled at by TSSes. I picked up an F job and went out 15 late and with flagging it became 20. EVERYONE stopped to pester me and no one passed it on I was official out 3 mins late. Fianlly I told W4 that if they did not pass it on and Jay stopped me I would dump the train.
You are late and lose 1 more minute at each tower explaining yourself.
I am tempted to call control more often but am nervous the TD will find a way to screw me back. There is no way I will operate for 5 hrs straight like I have in the past with no break unless there is an emergency.
With fewer towers out there today, one would think that info. regarding the status of the intervals would be passed from tower to tower more efficiently but it is not. Being asked for call letters and where did you lose your time are all too frequent questions. And of course it is completely uncalled for. Now when you reach your destination, your dispatcher is pissed, not at you personally, but out of frustration of your lateness. He does not want to show a late train and now you get screwed out of your recovery time, no lunch or late clear. Then the TA brags about how great the on time performance is! Ya gotta love it!
I think you witnessed an example of how TA operations fudges statistics without improving service. The "lateness" statistic is based on the time that the R reaches the 95th St terminal. If it's more than 6 minutes behind its scheduled arrival it is late, if it is within 6 minutes it is considered "on time". They could make up a couple of minutes to bring it home 5 minutes late and be "on time".
This manoeuvre is normally practiced at the beginning of a run when most passengers are bording not at its end when most passengers are departing. It is designed to equalize loading and thus reduce dwell time. Dwell times for both the leader and following trains are reduced.
This manoeuvre does not work for departing passengers at the end of a run. Dwell time for the following train is increased without any dwell time decrease for the leader.
I don't know about that it depends on the line and the time. The F goes express after Church and the N at 36st.
Last week I had an N job and was held 18 minutes due to single tracking at Queensboro and my follower is a fast operator. I did not get to skip stops until 36st. and only because at that point they realized they needed the train at CI.
You also forget that they just flat out lie about what time the train arrives.
Last week I had an N job and was held 18 minutes due to single tracking at Queensboro and my follower is a fast operator. I did not get to skip stops until 36st. and only because at that point they realized they needed the train at CI.
I'm assuming that they were running a single track in the 60th St tunnel, from what you've said. There is no way such single track operation should result in an 18 minute delay. That's enough time to make the run between Lex and the 60th St portal 3 times over. A 6 minute delay is the max I'd expect. Also, I also assume this was not scheduled during the PM rush hour as the was the case for the reported incident.
That being said, if your train was 18 minutes late by the time it reached Lex, then dispatcher should have known there would be a problem for at least 40 minutes (travel time between Lex and 36th St). He should have had many options for filling the gap at CI, rather than adding to the already 18 minute delay for passengers who boarded your train and expected to exit at one of the bypassed stations in Brooklyn.
You also forget that they just flat out lie about what time the train arrives.
All the more reason for placing automatic data recorders on trains and at stations.
>I'm assuming that they were running a single track in the 60th St >tunnel, from what you've said. There is no way such single track >operation should result in an 18 minute delay.
Work train, too. 18 minutes.
The running time from Queensboro Plaza to Stillwell is 72 minutes. The dispatcher had that much warning that there would be an 18 minute gap in 72 minutes. He chose to ignore the situation for 40 of those minutes (until the train had reached 36th St) and provide a solution which inconvenienced passengers who were already on board your train.
Whether this delay was caused by single track operation or a work train is immaterial. BTW, why would it be necessary to operate the work train in the running tunnel, when the other tube was closed to normal traffic?
Because when a tube or track is closed for a G.O., only work trains that are assigned to do work on that track/tube can access it. Otherwise, they have to follow the G.O. like the road trains do.
If the work train that caused the delay happened to be assigned to that closed tube, then it is likely that the train was unable to operate through the entire tube due to scaffolding on the roadway or a similar obstruction. The TA isn't gonna purposely hold a road train for 18 minutes, there's got to be a reason for such a lengthy delay.
"manoeuvre"? Are you turning into Jersey Mike now? (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
Any train that bypasses stops it was supposedc to make is considered an 'en-route ABD' and can no longer be considered late (or on time or early). Bypassing stations is done solely to put the train physically back where it belongs - halfway between its leader and follower.
It also depends if it is an official thing or not. The TD has sent me express without controls knowledge at least once or twice. A SA banged it in at a customers request. The regular c/r booked off but the crew office said nothing and they thought they were covering for a senior man. We went out 20 late on the J. The nly C/R they could get was one of those guys who swore never to work with off the street people.
And another story I can't put onto paper
The more I think about, I am one lucky SOB. I get into situations at least once a week it's just that someone else would look worse and set the ball rolling and they never pursue it.
Any train that bypasses stops it was supposedc to make is considered an 'en-route ABD' and can no longer be considered late (or on time or early).
Let's see if I've got this right? Suppose half the trains would be late. The dispatcher sends these trains express for a few stops, resulting in these trains arriving at their terminals a few minutes earlier but not being included in the "on time" statistics. His record now shows that 100% of the trains arrived on time.
Bypassing stations is done solely to put the train physically back where it belongs - halfway between its leader and follower.
The mission for running the subway is to carry passengers from one station to another. Removing passengers from an already full train in order to bypass their normal departure stations does not further this mission.
Yes.
Lets go back to my problem being 18 minutes late.
My follower was likely running warm as I had all his passengers his train was basically empty and I was missing connections with the other trains I should have met. Plus I had a double load of passengers still a light load Vs. Rush but lots of mad people to hold up the C/R with bitching and moaning. Now my train is also supposed to go out and as it was around 5ish the headways were clsoing up, my train was needed to leave CI. By not giving me the run uptown service would have been screwed up too because they needed my train. Now this would have only gotten worse as the day came on and there were larger numbers of riders. There really was a train right behind so making part of one trainload wait 2 mins Vs. clogging the system is not a real choice.
One train does not matter the system does. It is mass transit
Lets go back to my problem being 18 minutes late.
Your train was 18 minutes late arriving at Lex. The combined N/R headway was 5 minutes. There should have been 3 trains stacked up behind you and a gap of 3 missing trains ahead of you. This means that there were probably 3-4 times the normal number of passengers waiting at each station.
The time to have taken action was when your train arrived at 57th St (Manhattan) because it is an express stop and has resident supervisory personnel. You and your immediate follower should have taken 1/3 of the stations. You would have started at Canal and your follower at Herald Sq. This would have given all the local trains near normal loads going into Brooklyn and be fairly close to a normal headways.
Instead, nothing was done for 40 minutes. Your train was permitted to load up with 3 times the normal number of passengers. It was already past its maximum load, when the train arrived at Pacific. Operations then decided to further inconvenience more passengers (making some 20+ minutes late) by forcing them off the train to take the follower.
Now my train is also supposed to go out and as it was around 5ish the headways were clsoing up, my train was needed to leave CI. By not giving me the run uptown service would have been screwed up too because they needed my train. Now this would have only gotten worse as the day came on and there were larger numbers of riders.
The dispatchers had a 20 minute window of opportunity to act - when your train was between Queensboro Plaza and 57th St. They blew it. I assume not having sufficient trains to make the uptown run out of CI would have raised some alarms. They decided on a grand, meaningless gesture to show they were "on top" of the situation.
MIDNIGHTS, MIDNIGHTS, MIDNIGHTS
There were no R trains, we were on 20 minute headways.
I would have gone 59th, 42nd, 34th, 14th, and Canal. I still would have been late but it would not have been so ridiculous.
Thank's for the clarification. It's cleared up the confusion on my part as to why they might run a single track operation during the day.
It also means that other options were available. One of them would have been to run your train as an express over the Manhattan Bridge from 57th St. That would have put you back on schedule and permitted most of the passengers already on board to exit at their intended stations. Moreover, if the dispatcher were at the top of his form, he would have sent out the Q before your arrived at 57th as a local via the tunnel to take care of the passengers entering stations in Manhattan.
Again the time for action was prior to your train's arrival at 57th St, not 40 minutes later.
>>>>>>>>>>The dispatcher sends these trains express for a few stops, resulting in these trains arriving at their terminals a few minutes earlier but not being included in the "on time" statistics. His record now shows that 100% of the trains arrived on time.
Technically that would be correct. But the amount of ABD's (abandoned runs) would be grossly high. A line superintendent would much rather have a bunch of late trains over a bunch of ABD's. It's gotta do with his bonus $$$.
I'd bet that unless control is involved (AND THEY ARE NOT ON MOST MIDNIGHTS) it is not recorded as an ABD.
As I was told by a TD, everyone is ontime on the midnights.
Yeah, I'd bet you're right. Of course this situation normally happens during the day.
It's gotta do with his bonus $$$.
I have no problem with incentive pay. The problem is to devise a metric that also benefits the customer.
does anyone remember the font type used in the NYC subways signs?
I like it because itīs very clear to read it.
thanks!
helvetica, though some letters are a bit custom it seems - like the "R".
Helvetica or Helvetica Neue, with variations
The NEWEST signs are Arial. I'm no kidding. Don't correct me. Look at the R on your computer. Then head to DeKalb Avenue's fare control and it's the same R. And the 2, head on a NEW train and look at the number next to the door.
What about the "font" used for the wall tile from the days of the building of the IND--and the individual letter tiles used to distinguish the direction of exits within the IND stations?
Has anyone ever seen those particular font styles transferred to Windows fonts before?
i recall that more or less the same question was posed sometime ago on this site, perhaps as far back as August 2000. I also recall that some bright spark provided a very thorough and definitive answer. Perhaps you could search the archives?
I've been noticing from my past experiences at railfanning at Metuchen station (my home train station), during the PM rush I would notice something odd.
After the 6:10p train arrives [100% of the time this train consists of 6 Comet cars (III or IV) & the loco. would be pushing] and serves passengers and departs for New York, I would see a 12-car pair of Arrow III EMU's skipping past this station around 6:15p.
Sometimes this train would "suck" the station in or it might slow down, or even sometimes if the Traffic Controllers permit it runs on the express track #2.
Strangely enough, this train is not listed an any full timetable of NJ TRANSIT services.
Can anyone please tell me:
1) What is this train's purpose? and
2) How come this train is not in any timetable? Is it a special train?
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Most likely deadheading back to New York or the yard. Deadhead trains are not on the schedule because its not a passenger train.
I know THEY, are not on the schedule, but I was probably guessing a shadow of what your answer was. Thanks for the clarification.
More details from experts would be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I remember when I was in second grade when an article (including a PHOTO on the paper) in the Star Ledger reported of a NJT accident involving two locomotive hauled trains.
I know this for sure because I still have a shadow of the picture still in my head. It was maybe a Comet 2A or some other car which has a thin black line, but no center door.
The accident happened in an area where one track switch involving one track splits the track into two tracks. (Anyone know what this type of switch or track is called?)
Each was headed in opposite directions (I don't remember any details, where it happened, or most anything), and the first train to switch and head on to the opposite track was passing the switch.
Then headlong, comes another train towards the "switching" train, and since the other train couldn't stop quickly enough, that train impacted a couple of cars on the "switching train".
(Sorry for the weird names but without details, my writing is disfigured)
I don't remember how many people were injured and such, but if ANYONE recalls this incident please let me know with MORE DETAILS.
: )
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
That was the Feb. 9, 1996 crash. The Cab Car was destroyed and the locomotive rebuilt by Conrail. This prompted the Comet IV order.
Thank you for the info. By the way, what does your handle "NJSTA" stand for?
Railfan Pete.
The two trains were the Main Line (outbound) and the Bergen County Line (inbound). Both engineers were killed and one passenger in the cab car of the Bergen County line was killed. For weeks afterward passengers on the two lines avoided the cab cars like the plague (and some trains ran with engines on both ends since 2 cab cars were taken out of service, one permanently). It was then determined that all the Comet / Shoreliner cab cars on NJT and Metro-North didn't provide adequate protection for engineers, prompting the redesign for the Comet IV / Shoreliner III.
I have the Daily News article. It was the first major accident in NJT history. The MAS for the interlocking at Secaucus was reduced because of it.
Thank you for the extended info. Did the incident occur on the tracks which met after Glen Rock station?
The Comet that was wrecked was #5145. It happened in Secaucus, there were several fatalities.
wayne
It was 5146. 5145 is still active, I think it may have been rebuilt already.
Are you referring to a gauntlet track or a facing point crossover. I know there was an accident on the NEC around Bergen interlocking where an NJT train was taking the curve too fast and it tilted over into the oncomming track and clipped another train.
Are you referring to a gauntlet track or a facing point crossover.
I don't think it's a crossover, since one track divides into two tracks, with one switch accomodating it. Picture the Eiffel Tower, except the beams will be one beam.
I know there was an accident on the NEC around Bergen interlocking where an NJT train was taking the curve too fast and it tilted over into the oncomming track and clipped another train.
Where and when did this happen? I am interested in knowing.
: |
Railfan Pete.
The big curve into the North River Tubes.
North River? I'll take it as the 2 tracks which are sharply banked near the Hudson River tubes. These tracks have a restriction of 50-60mph.
If the train goes slow enough, you can feel the tilt.
Railfan Pete.
MTA has indicated that full-time service through the 63rd St Connector should commence before the end of 2001. The current emergency has not prompted any fundamental change in schedule or intentions. Look to see the rerouted F, and the new "V" train by December...
Ron,
12/10/01 is the scheduled start date for the V and F via 63rd
NYCT President Larry Reuter has re-affirmed NYCT policy to all employees that prohiits the sale of NYCT books, manuals and other collectibles on E-Bay and other internet sites. I presume that lots less 'stuff' will be around for the collector.
Maybe less stuff on the net. If I understand your post correctly the directive only applies to internet sales? If so maybe the old avenues will still carry such items?
Alan Glick
That is to NYCT employees. What about to non-employees?
They can't hold us to their directives.
I think the problem occured when things like vests, flashlights, hardhats etc were starting to appear on ebay. There was even a TA radio that was offered (but that was stopped since the item was stolen).
I don't think this will stop items in private hands from being bought and sold on ebay.
Not enforceable. How does one knows the seller is a NYCT employee?
Doesn't say you can't buy. Says TA employees can't sell, presumably upon pain of discipline or dismissal.
Does this apply to historical "stuff" - that is rollsigns, controller handles, etc from BMT Standards and the like?
Transit needs to make up a big 'yard sale' project. Where I stash my plastic cartons to sit/stand on there is tons of old neat stuff that I wouldn't put a finger on. Anyone for a 'Master Controller?' Peter
"Transit needs to make up a big 'yard sale' project"
They used to !! There were two successful "tag sales" held at the Transit Museum in Brooklyn some years ago. They had all sorts of neat stuff at good prices. They were selling original R-42 side rolls signs
for $5 each. You know one of those "cluster" lights with the round cover seen near switches etc, the one with five light bulbs ?, I bought one for a friend for $1, new in a box. The enamel lid had a dent on it. I rewired it for A.C. and he had it installed on his porch !
There were two of these "tag sales" that a long line around the block waiting for the museum to open. My friend even bought a like new side roll curtain sign for the R-11, BMT destinations !! On both tag sale events, they had auctions of some juicy stuff in the R-42 theatre. Rare porcelain signs, fareboxes etc.
Thejn something happened, maybe the Transit Museum became upscale or got religion, and the tag sale was never revived. Those were the fun days.
Bill "Newkirk"
At the last Transit Museum Auction & Tag Sale, I bid for (and won) a day on the Track Geometry Car.
I had heard that it was a great deal of work to set up this kind of sale, and the money that came in, while in the black, wasn't enough to justify doing it again in the future. I'm pretty sure I was told this by a member of the TM staff a number of years ago - his first name was John (a real, real nice guy, too).
Maybe for the 100th birthday, we'll see it back.
I remember those long lines. I got to the museum early that day (no lines) and spent the entire day there.
--Mark
I hope to get to see the Transit Museum one day but right now, I'll have to settle on fixin those 'museum pieces' that still run remarkably well. 'Five light fixtures' are really neat if you can run a long extension cord off the third rail! Used one today. Peter
When you use the 5-in-series units, do you clamp electrodes directly to the third rail and a running rail, or do you get the 600 from a junction that feeds the rails? Or do you just do whatever's most convenient?
Mark
Always GROUND first!!! Then stick it on something hot like a third rail or a shoe shunt (non-moving train of course.) Actually, I clamped the 'shoe beam fuse' that links up the Redbirds DC motors and the arm of the knife switch (in the little red box) so I could run up the propulsion system without moving the train (the bulbs light up when you engage the controller.) On the juice, Peter.
I remember before they even had the tag sales in the late 70's early 80's, they were selling the old rollsigns, rollsign boxes, enamel signs etc.. in the little shop in the museum (as well as hotdogs).
I worked in Downtown Brooklyn then and remembered going there a lot at lunch time, seemed like it was always empty. The guy who used to work there would let me in without paying because I was going to the shop to buy things. Everything was really cheap there, and old enamel sign from the 40s that said NO SPITTING, SMOKING etc.. was $2.00.
I later read in the newspaper that that guy was fired or something for selling that stuff. It was shortly after that, that they had the tag sale. I was amazed at the high prices that the stuff was going for after that.
Most of the roll signs were probably from the last of the R-1/9s. Cityana Gallery also had roll signs for sale during that time; I picked up my bulkhead route and destination mechanisms there. My sign box was acquired at Branford in 1980; however, it had Eastern Division signs. Luckily, they also had IND curtains available with and without mechanisms. I got what I needed and retrofitted the sign box with IND curtains, and for the past 21 years have displayed mostly A and D combinations, with the F getting occasional exposure. Currently, it's signed for the A to Far Rockaway.
If it's prohibiting employees from selling, well, Larry is going to be surprised to discover one of these days that the internet gives people anonymity.
If he's prohibiting all sales by anybody, well, there are loopholes around that too (I'll sell you this plain white napkin for $50. With every sale, I'll also throw in a free 1948 subway map..).
But hey, he's a politician, this is his job, so I can't complain too much.
I'm sure selling rollsigns, number plates, and other useless shit (in the TA's eyes) will not be affected, if it is then whoever makes the bust must have a rod shoved a bit too far up...
Useless junk in shops attics it may be but none of it is worth losing a really good job over...you might have a vest, flashlight, keys, gloves, oil, wipes, some odd tools or brushes...because they're needed to be TA handy or clean up the greasy stains...but if someone doesn't like you...there are rats. Peter
>>>>>>>>...but if someone doesn't like you...there are rats
What? The rats are TA property too?
What? You never saw the yellow paint on their feet? :)
And their vests?
The rats are the guys you work with trying to make themselves more valuable to TA by killing their brothers. The yellow paint is the mark of the Devil. And the vests??? Wanted an extra to stick on my dashboard and got one today after a maggot got flattened out. MTA gets you there...car inspectors assure your safety. Peter
Unlike SOME TWU brothers, el ratas matas have learned to EAT the damned vests instead of waiting for a 5 minute lunch break. After all, when you have beady little eyes that catch headlights, you don't need no damned dayglow hippie love jackets. :)
Could it be that the administrative types are afraid of some nutjob getting into restricted areas by masquerading as an employee? Railfans like us would not do that, but there are some out there who would do anything to make trouble - witness the clowns who showcased themselves on September 11th of this year. The realy serious among them will find a way to get what they want, and not just from E-bay.
All this points out is that vigilance is what is needed, and it comes with a price, sad to say.
The official party line is that all such material & manuals are actually the property of the NYCT. As such, employees and, for that matter, non-employees, have no right tosell TA property. In reality, keys and handles floating around pose a real and foreseeable danger. Similarly, technical manuals can give a motivated nut-job a little too much information.
'Keys and handles pose a forseeable danger.' Right, I'll hijack a R142 and drive it to Cuba. Damn brake handle weighs five pounds...just finished welding a bootleg in the basement that weighs six ounces. TrainDude, you and I are about the same age....remember 'skeleton keys?' Keys, reversers, portion wrenches and brake handles are easy to find or make. The safety of the system depends on us. Peter
True, and I would not be surprised if a really motivated clown found his way into a tower and started making havoc with the route switches.
Ther are just some folk who have nothing to do, and idle hands are the devils workshop.
Don't go overboard...anyone can dupe keys and wrenches. Idle hands got swami bendover in big trouble several weeks ago on 239th trk 69 in the end cab of an R142 right in front of all the Car Inspectors...and i missed the action before my eyes. If it's going to happen...it will...and we all must be vigilant...and we must be prepared...with 'Tough Guy' and blue wipes. Laugh TrainDude!!!! I swim amongst the sharks. Peter
Darius McC, a year or so ago, got into the tower at 57/7 and tripped an N train by "dropping" a home ball in front it.
Greetings, all... Glad to see SubTalk back up and running.
Some of you may be interested in an update of my car situation (read here for the background).
Last Tuesday evening I was driving inbound on the Northwest Tollway, and the engine seemed to be doing okay. (That said, over the prior few days I had noticed a slight loss of power and it been idling rougher than usual. It was still burning about a quart of oil per 100 miles.) I pull into the O'Hare toll plaza, just before the merge with the Kennedy Expressway, pay my toll, and speed up to merge back into traffic. The car goes into overdrive, and when it comes back down out of overdrive, I hear this rapid BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM from the engine. I get off at my exit, which wasn't far away, and manage to limp my way home. Huge amounts of smoke were coming from the tailpipe, and the engine was convulsing violently, even stalling out a couple times. I couple days later I got the car to a trusted mechanic and he confirmed that the piston rings had a meltdown. Two of the car's four cylinders have no compression whatsoever.
It's going to be at least 2-3 months before I can afford to replace the engine, so I had to scramble to find a set of wheels so that I could hold onto my job, which requires a car. My friend Eric has a 1972 Buick Skylark which he graciously let me borrow for a few days in return for an oil change. Meanwhile, I began to search the listings for a $500 beater to drive around until the Saturn gets fixed.
I found my beater in the form of a silver 1986 Pontiac Trans Am out in Elgin, complete with T-tops and 5-speed stick. The body has some minor accident damage up front, the brakes need some work, and the engine is running a bit rich. But at least it runs well, which is more than I can say about the Saturn, and it's actually a very comfortable car as long as you're not attempting to sit in the back seats. As an added bonus, there's very little body rust. Also, it's a fun car to drive... Not bad for $455. I figured if I had to drive a beater for a couple months, I may as well drive something that's got some character. I'm thinking that, assuming this car doesn't have any major mechanical issues, I may even hold onto it after the Saturn is fixed, and make a project out of fixing it up. The Saturn is ideal for day-to-day commuting and running errands, but the Trans Am is perfect for a good drive out on the highway, like out to IRM or up to Wisconsin on warm summer weekends.
So... Anybody know anything about maintaining or fixing up old GM F-body cars? Now I just need to grow a mullet, dig out my old Journey CD's, and move to New Jersey!
As far as the Saturn goes, I'm hoping I can get a decent used engine installed for under $2000. Hopefully I'll be able to recover that from the dealer via small-claims court. I'm tempted to just ditch the car, but since I still owe a ton of money on it, I'm pretty much stuck with it. Right now it's parked on the street, but I have a friend who may be able to rent me some space in his garage to store it for a while.
That's all for now...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Buy a new Toyota, it will run for years and years. I didn't think there were any 1972 Skylarks left on the road. My first car was a 1969 Olds Cutlass-S. Those old GM cars devoured gasoline but were easy to maintain and fun to drive. A 1986 TransAm that is still running is amazing. The GM cars of the 1980s were awful. Good Luck!
Buy a new Toyota, it will run for years and years.
Easier said than done if you're drowning in debt and have a rotten credit history.
I agree that Toyotas are nice, though. My boss just bought a new Camry, and the way the car fits together is flawless. A good friend of mine has an older Camry with well over 150,000 miles on it, and it still runs perfectly.
How's that phrase go about hindsight being 20/20?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Buy a new Toyota, it will run for years and years.
I agree that Toyotas are nice, though. My boss just bought a new Camry, and the way the car fits together is flawless. A good friend of mine has an older Camry with well over 150,000 miles on it, and it still runs perfectly.
And yet Toyotas may be a bit overrated. My mother bought a new Corolla four years ago and has been disappointed with it ever since. It's underpowered (and she's definitely a non-gear head!), very cramped in the back seat, has only so-so handling, and almost worst of all, its windows fog up incessantly. And hers is not an isolated case. I've known of other people who've found Toyotas to be over-hyped. You have to pay a lot for a Toyota, and I really suspect they're not worth it.
that is true. toyota, honda, nissan are all hyped up cars. you pay an arm and 3 legs for a bland automobile with next to nothing all for the sake of "quality". because of their bland and overated reputation, the korean automobiles: Daewoo, Hyundai, and Kia are taking their sales away. Toyota and honda has lost some sales this quarter while Hyundai and Kia have picked up sales. since the koreans all you can eat at a low price concept with the 10 year warranty kicked in, plus improved quality, the japanese error looks like its heading for the grave. even the american autos are gaining back some of the ground they lost back in the 80's.
Our 1987 Camry is in perfect condition functionally and cosmetically. It's a great car. Maybe the next time you buy a car sometime in the future, think about getting a good used Toyota if a new one's out of reach financially. They're definately excellent cars.
-Robert King
as you have a perfect running 87 camry, my sis has 90 camry that is about to bite the dust. cuts out constantly. failing breaks, poor steering, and it only has 85 miles on it.
The GM cars of the 1980s were awful.
In 1993 I bought an '85 Olds Cutlass Ciera from a guy at work for $1000. It had an underpowered fuel injected 4 with 103k miles on it. I got rid of it in 1999 when the air conditioner blew in a very hot August and I was in a carpool, so I needed AC. The engine was in excellent condition with 230k miles on it, but the car wasn't worth the cost of AC repair. I put $1700 in repairs into the car over the 6 years. I guess I was lucky.
My replacement is a $3000 '91 Pontiac Grand Prix with 107k miles in August 1999, 160k now. Accelerates like a jackrabbit and gets 28 mpg (100 miles round trip to work). $950 in repairs so far. I like my shitty GM cars.
I'm stuck with an '87 Chevy Celbrity station wagon (Eurosport!) now, for the winter (bike's sleeping now). Talk about POS. Crap steering, no acceleration, the damm check engine light is popping on/off and the car drives the same crappy way it always did...The tranny (automatic), can't make up it's mind what gear to be in, and the dumb lockup solinoid died years ago...
I've driven 70's musclecars, and they're fun, and the power steering's great on them, but 80's GM cars? yuck! As far as Brand J goes, I despise the 4 cylinder compact automotive appliance, but my mom's got an Acura and loves it. *shrug*
I figure once I get hooked up with a job and get rolling, I'll pick up an old Nova (with a real engine, not a wimpy 350), and ditch the wagon. the wagon's *only* redeeming feature is it's a great hauler, and can offroad pretty well too...
years ago, my mother had an old's cutlass ciera pushrod 6. never gave a problem until after 5 frontal crashes, plus she never took good care of it, it malfunctioned. the engine was running well but, the computer went wacko and the modulater stopped working causing the car to cut out. then accident 6 happened when she pulled out on an intersection caused by truck that was blocking her view. she then put it in a so called "friends driveway until she could carner the money to fix the computer and the modulator, but the friend of the family decided to have the car junked because of her demeanor.
Don't know about that; my 1984 Buick Regal went for 16 years and logged a mere 143,000 miles.
wayne
My Jeep is now at 441,000 miles. The other day, I saw a beautiful '68 AMX with a 390. That's one car I fantasize about owning someday, with a 4-speed and the Go-Pack option. The only downer is that those were leaded premium gas engines; I'd have to have the heads redone for unleaded. I'ts nice to dream.
New engine? I guess it melted real bad!!! Ring jobs on 4 bangers aren't really that hard. Pop the head off, pull pistons, new rings, run the honer thing throughthe bores, pop the pistons back in, bolt it all together, drive it easy first 500 miles. I'm amazed you blew up a Saturn - my dad's has over 200k on it and still isn't falling apart.
As far as chasing the dealer over it, well, if there was a 90 day warranty on the powertrain, and you notified them well within that warerenty and they failed to fix it, they're kinda in a bad spot. You're in a bad spot, though, as it was an "as is" car. Of course, if you can prove it couldn't pass emissions at the time you bought it....
Lemon laws, I thought, applied to safety related defects, but they varyfrom state to state. Check with a lawyer, I guess...
The '86 Pontiac - it a V8? Don't do any burnouts or holeshots - you'll wreck the T tops (a friend did that once drag racing it). Anyway, IIRC, those were based off the old Chevy shortblock (still in production! Great design). Those things run forever, and they're easy to fix. BTW - you'll need a set of metric and English tools. I'd hit Sears and get a set (and you're from Chicago anyway - hit Sears :) It'll set you back $75, or less if it on sale, but the quality is way beyond the chepie sets, plus the lifetime warrenty is good. Learn car repair :) It's not that bad, really. For rich running, check the carb and all your emissions hoses, and the EGR, IIRC. Should be able to get it back in spec.
Oh yeah, and you *need* fuzzy dice for it!!!!
Have fun! :)
Sorry to hear about your car. As much as I hate to say it during these times of patriotism I think you're about getting a Toyota. I've had 6 cars since I started driving in 1971: three American cars and 3 Jap cars and I must say the Jap cars were much more reliable. The only American car that was good was my first, a '67 Olds Cutlass Supreme, I don't recall any problems with it. But my '74 Caddie and my '85 Buick Century were real nightmares. My 3 Jap cars were really great, although my first, a '79 Datsun 210 (bought new) did have an engine seize in in '87 with 150,000 miles. Last January I was breaking down left and right with my '85 Buick when an old man neighbor of my brother in law gave him his '89 Toyota Corolla cheap. Well after a week of rolling back on hills my brother in law realized he will never master a standard transmission and gave me the car for $300. Since then I replaced only the radiator & alternator for only $300. So $600 for 11 months is pretty good knock on wood.
In 1990 I got the urge to get a motorcycle And bought an '82 Yamaha Virago for $1300. About 6 months later I got the urge to buy a Harley and bought a brand new Police Special for $12,000. The engine seized the day after I picked it up and was in the shop for 3 weeks before I made my first payment!!! By the way I still have both bikes now along with the '85 Buick & '89 Toyota.
In my opinion from driving police cars and yellow cabs my whole adulthood, if you are going to drive American, stay away from GM. The old Plymouth Grand Fury radio cars were really great, and the Ford radio cars were OK, but the Chevy's were/are terrible. Also when I drove a medallion cab in the 70's we had Checkers which had GM Chevy engines and parts and they were always breaking down.
Just my opinion.
Heh. Siezed the engine up? They do need oil, ya know :)
Evos need a certain amount of pressure of they'll start ticking like mad (lifters).
Shovels need a lot less, Pans just need oil sloshing around in there! BTW, if it's got noisy lifters, check the screen, it's dirty. At least the nice thing about Harleys is the motors don't really wear out, and they're infinitely rebuildable anyway, at least till the lower cases crack. All roller and ball bearings. BTW, if you ever put a cam in there, change the INA bearing for a Torrington :) And ditch the crappy stock carb for an S&S. There's a big reason why S&S's are so damm popular....
Phil, that was the second day I had the bike with only about 30 miles on it. I didn't think I had to check the oil so soon!! It turned out to be a factory defect where the oil pump wasn't pumping oil properly. I was going over to my ex-girlfriend's house (that was 11 yrs ago before I was married) to show it off when it happened. (She was into sport bikes, and had a Honda Intercepter) I never made it to her house and luckily I was close enough to walk it home. Hempstead Harley wouldn'd give me a new engine. They rebuilt it and gave me some BS that a hand rebuilt engine is better than any assembly line new engine and that I was actually lucky it happened!!
In all honesty however I now have 47,000 miles on it with no real engine problems after it. Electrical problems are another story, I've had one after another!! My Yamaha on the other hand is like the Ever Ready Battery. I just give it oil changes and it keeps going and going and going.
I must be a glutton for punishment though as I'm itching to buy an 883 Sportster when & if I retire next year.
Heh, Too bad you couldn't have brought it over to Rolling Thunder. As far as electrical gremlins? Welcome to the joys of Harley ownership :) I've had a few. BTW, I'd pass on an 883 and get the 1200. The 883 is too freaking slow. The 1200, on the other hand, is fun out of the box, and is a hell of a lot more fun once you punch the baffles out , add an S&S E, a decent cam, headwork, high comp pistons. or, bore it out, go for Axtell jugs and *really* have fun.....
(Heh, Too bad you couldn't have brought it over to Rolling Thunder)
Phil,
I have been going to Rolling Thunder for over three years now. Three quarters of the mechanics there are former Hempstead employees.
Dodge is the worst. I remember when I was growing up we had a Dodge Dart that would stall all the time. And it would not re-start. It was a lemon, but the dealer couldn't fix the problem. I don't see many Dodges on the road today, I guess since they are so unreliable. They say it is the new Dodge but I have a feeling it's the same old Dodge it's always been.
Japanese cars are better. Honda, Toyota, Nissan. They last longer and are more relaible. Too bad the Japanese don't make buses. They could put Orion out of business.
You could have had a vacuum leak somewhere. Our '68 AMC Ambassador stalled repeatedly when stopped or when backing out of the garage in the morning. IIRC there were no vacuum leaks, but a technician finally told my father to try a different gasoline. It seemed to help, plus I suggested letting the engine run for half a minute or so before trying to back out of the garage. That helped, too. I learned to drive on that car, and it almost never stalled for me.
They have had Orion 5 buses here in Westchester County since 1995 and I'm not aware of any problems with them that I know about. I have a feeling that if the transit systems in this country tried to buy Japanese buses they might not be popular with some people. It is entirely possible though that the Japanese buses might outlast the American buses but, I don't know that for a fact.
#3 West End Jeff
the fact about Japanese buses is that, they don't last that long. plus they are harder to fix and uncomfortable to the passengers. Tri-boro coach tested one and scrapped it. In many other countries where Japanese buses are used, they don't last no more than 6-10 years.
I had a '75 Mercury Comet that came from the Flintstones era. It has so much rust that you could lift up the drivers side carpet and see the street beneath you. In fact, the dealer that sold me that car gave it to me with no padding left on the brakes and if I went through a puddle, I'd need to put my feet down to stop the car!
--Mark
Didn't they call them the Mercury Vomit?
Ah to be young again!!
Chuck Greene
again 1980's generation of autos. pull out of that era. speaking the japanese making buses, Tri-Boro Coach tested a Japanes brand bus. major mistake. FYI: Orion is under the clutches of Daimler-Chrysler and is stationed out of Canada. don't know if they were under Mercedes benz since day one but, go to Daimler-Chrysler and you will see it there. it is joined with Freightliner but has its own link
You had a problem with a Caddie? Never heard of such a thing in my life. I believe Cadillac is the best car company especially since it is an AMERICAN COMPANY.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
BUY AMERICAN TO SAVE JOBS!
Uh, about two or three months ago GM themselves admitted that Cadillac's reputation had suffered because they were producing crummy luxury cars that costed a fortune but had problems like leaking roofs etc. They apparantly lost a lot of customers because they reasoned that an expensive luxury car should be well made: no transmissions falling apart, no leaky roofs, no poor workmanship and so on.
Buying American cars saves lots of jobs. The crap that comes out of Detroit keeps a lot of mechanics in business. Personally, I stick with the Japanese because I believe cars should be well designed and built and that cars belong on the road, not in repair shops all the time.
-Robert King (I especially hate Chevrolet Citation IIs)
again, auto experiences from the 80's. that era is over. cars are all alike in the reliability level. some just cost less to maintain than others. GM now gives better gas mileage than Hondas i.e. the Pontiac GrandPrix GT give better mileage than the Honda Accord V6 go research.
i do respect your opinion, but your experiences as much as many others are from a previous generation. todays car, whatever you buy, is a chance of having problems from audi to volvo. even the influencing toyota and honda will give problems. recently the Toyota Highlander just got recalled for breaking problems. Lexus IS 300 is being recalled for chassis mishaps. Ford is recalling its explorer for a problem not dealing with the engine. Honda recalled the Accord back in 98 for wiring problems. of course all the cars get recalled, but at least all cars up to this day do not give engine trouble which is the most important aspect that the customer cares about. today, if a car is considered unreliable is because it niggles. for example, interior pieces don't work right, or a mechanical hickup with the drive train. but the engine screwing up on you will less likely happen with cars no matter from what continent. its time everyone get from under the hypnotism of Toyota, honda, mercedes, and start noticing that the other cars are now reliable and a better value.
I own a 1998 Honda Civic DX 2 dr.hatchback which I bought new on February 15, 1998 and took delivery of on February 19, 1998. It has About 28,800 miles on it presently and has given me no major problems so far. My sister drives a 1991 Honda Civic DX 2 dr. hatchback that has 117,600 miles on it and it is still running. It burns a little oil now but it probably is a quart every 1,500 to 2,000 miles. It has had its problems in recent years but they are more of the nature of items which you expect to give out in time naturally such as the most recent problem which is a defective radiator and since the radiator was under warranty my sister won't have to pay for it. The important items, the engine and the transmission are still going strong. It also gets good gas mileage.
#3 West End Jeff
1500-2000 miles on a quart of oil is quite good, actually. Some oil is inevitably used between changes. For years, the rule of thumb was 1000 miles per quart was considered not excessive.
Some oil is inevitably used between changes.
I never lost any oil between changes on my '85 Cutlass (aquired with 103,000 miles and discarded with 230,000), changing oil every 5000 miles.
Did the oil level on the dipstick stay exactly the same for 5,000 miles? I don't mean to nitpick; engines are designed to use some oil without it being considered "burned". The oil control piston rings scrape most of it off the cylinder walls, but a microscopic film remains. My Jeep uses less than a quart of oil in 5,000 miles even after over 440,000 miles on the original untouched engine. And I use Castrol Syntec 0W-30 or 5W-30.
Did the oil level on the dipstick stay exactly the same for 5,000 miles?
Within normal variations of measurements based on how level the car is, reproducibility of inserting the dipstick, etc, the oil level was never measured as much as one-half quart low in 5000 miles.
My 1998 Honda Civic DX hatchback uses hardly any oil between changes which isn't unusual for a relatively new car that has about 28,800 miles on it.
#3 West End Jeff
Agreed. Take care of it and hopefully it will remain oil tight.
I change the oil in the engine every three months and the filter.
#3 West End Jeff
That's a good timetable. Keep it up.
I certainly plan to keep it up so this way I'll have the car for a good long time.
#3 West End Jeff
My Uncle drives a Saturn and has never had a problem. It's almost 8 years old I think. I think that your Saturn may be one of the ones with the experimental Cummins gasoline engine in it, which could explain the problems. :-o
Seriously I hope your car situation gets better. I don't drive a car and as many of us know all too well, if you're in the 'burbs or the rural areas you're pretty much screwed without a set of wheels.
"6) Occasional sputtering and stalling in heavy stop-and-go traffic."
Ya know Cummins engines seem to do the same thing. The LIB Orions with the Cummins like to sputter alot in heavy traffic, and often stall out. (Alright I know this belongs in Bustalk!)
Just buy a Ford and save yourself some trouble.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
My 1987 Ford Econoline 150 has 153K on it and has no problems and only burns oil when I punch it, that straight 6 still has some kick left.
One of the reasons why Jacques Nasser was replaced recently was because Ford had more or less stagnated on the quality control in their car production; the quality of a new GM car is apparantly better than a new Ford car but it varies with used cars, of course.
-Robert King
The fuel injection on my '99 Camry (bought new) is shot. So Toyotas aren't givens either.
Just buy a Ford and save yourself some trouble.
FORD = Found on road, dead.
FORD = Found on road, dead
U mean
FORD= First on race day!
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Ford = Fix or repair daily.
Not so much anymore with the new ones . My 2000 Windstar is a good car!
Chuck Greene
I have had no trouble at all with my 1998 Ford Escort, which I've actually had since late 1997. I drive it in both city (stop-and-go) and highway traffic, and the only time I've had to have it in the shop other than for routine oil changes was for minor body work from car accidents (neither one was my fault).
And don't forget,
For One Resplendent Driveway
Far Out Ride, Dude!
I'll second that! Our current family fleet consists of four Fords, three of which ('92 Thunderbird, '94 Mustang, '96 Windstar) have over 100K on them (the 2000 Taurus has less than 15K), and I've driven several Fords past the 200K mark.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read what you said about bad credit history. Now lending institutions seem to be more willing to give loans. As far as cars go - I generally advise people to steer clear of American cars from the 1980's. I still don't have much confidence in Chrysler cars. I'm big on Honda. My '92 Accord has 184,000 miles and it runs like a champ and still gets 30 MPH on the highway. Just yesterday I purchased an '02 Honda Accord.
Good luck with your replacement car and getting another engine for the Saturn. Did your Saturn have the SOHC-8 Valve or the DOHC-16 vavle engine?
Wayne
BRING BACK THE CHEVY CORVAIR!!!!
Can we bring back the original Ford Pinto too?
-Robert King
BRING BACK THE CHEVY CORVAIR!!!!
An army buddy of mine had a Corvair. He routinely shifted into second at 30 mph and into 3rd at 60 mph. He stopped accelerating before shifting into 4th. That car MOVED!!!!
How long did it last?
He was still driving it with 75,000 miles on it when I got out of the army. He was stationed at Homestead AFB and lived in Vero Beach, so he drove a lot going home on weekends.
Better yet:
BRING BACK THE EDSEL!!!!!
But I want a Pinto!
-Robert King
At least the Pinto wasn't the butt of jokes the way the Edsel was.
At least the Pinto wasn't the butt of jokes the way the Edsel was.
You've never seen Best Defense? :)
I could be wrong, you know.:-)
FWIW - I put 370K on an ?86 Nissan Sentra. I bought it new and retired her in 1999 when the seat began to collapse. Seat wear and body rot were part of the ongoing aging process with that car. But the drivetrain did quite a bit better. I had to rebuild the 5 speed stick at 193K (bearings were shot.) But the engine never had more than valve cover gasket replacement. When I donated the car, the motor still went 3K miles without more than a half quart drop on the stick. ?P?Between all the Japanese brands, I think Nissan has received least amount of credit for most mechanically solid cars. ?P?As for domestic manufacturers - I wanted something more comfortable in ?99 and bought a brand new Chevy Monte Carlo. She runs great, has a predictable feel and is in general - more comfortable than any Japanese car I?ve been in.
My Jeep's 5-speed is still untouched and shifts OK; however, it sometimes howls between shifts. I'm sure its bearings may be going. It also balks between first and second after the car has sat in the cold all day unless I shift into second immediately after I get rolling. Since I use synthetic gearlube, it never feels as though I'm stirring molasses. The vehicle is on its second clutch, which has outlasted the original by 239,000 vs 202,000 miles. It's also on its second set of brakes, and they have over 190,000 miles on them vs almost 250,000 for the originals. The front axle has new bearings, replaced in 1998. The rear axle is all-original as is the transfer case. It's also on its fourth alternator and sixth or seventh water pump. The muffler and exhaust system are still original.
Steve, it sounds like your synchro ring may be bad or going bad for second gear. But so long as you don't force or grind it, you won't have a problem. As for howling beteen shifts - could be a throw out bearing in the clutch. But at 239K on your clutch - still nothing to complain about.
I'm guessing you have the inline 6 engine. It's a great motor with a long history. Who knows? it may never go bad.
You've definitely got me beat on brakes. The nature of my driving is typically stop and go mixed with let's do 70MPH and then have to come to a hard stop for traffic jam up ahead on the highway. I'll never see the mileage you get on your brakes.
Good luck with your Jeep!
Yes, my Jeep has the inline 4-liter six. It's proven to be as tough and durable as a BMT standard. I've heard from more than one technician that the 4-liter is practically bulletproof.
Most of my driving - I'd say around 80% - is highway. It's a 30-mile nonstop shot every morning, kind of like the CPW express jaunt. And when I do slow down, I gear down. I'm on my sixth set of tires and have averaged well over 80,000 miles on a set. My first set of Michelin XA4s lasted 107,000 miles.
The funny thing about the transmission balking is that I didn't have that problem when it still had the original petroleum-based gearlube. OTOH it's much quieter in fifth gear with the synthetic stuff, which I put in a year after buying the car. As I said, if I shift quickly into second after just getting the car moving when it's cold, there's no problem, and after a mile or two, it works fine.
The clutch has a slow leak in the hydraulic line. I had the master cylinder replaced a year and a half ago and the problem went away for a while, but now it's back. It could be the slave cylinder, which is integral with the throwout bearing in my case. I just keep an eye on the fluid level in the reservoir and add a splash of brake fluid when needed.
It has served me well and has been faithful. As long as I can get parts for it, I'm keeping it.
There has been some talk in the newspapers of reopening Hudson Terminal, as if the tracks and platforms still exist underground. Looking at this site and others, I was unable to determine exactly where it was.
Was it west of Church Street on the WTC superblock, perhaps under the two lower buildings? Or was it across Church Street, under Century 21? And what, if anything, is left?
Yes, Hudson Terminal was/is in the blcok from Church to Greenwich and yes, it is substantially intact, and yes, the PA is considering reopening it as one of its options.
I hope it does. It's much better situated than the PATH WTC terminal.
Of course there was more than just the underground station to Hudson Terminal, like the WTC there were a pair of office buildings which shared their lobby with the concourse. I like the idea of using the old platforms though, since it would put the station in an area less threatened by the site clearance and subsequent construction sure to take years. Turning the area back into a subway station will be a project in its own right though!
Welcome back Subtalk!
Gerry
For an extensive discussion of Hudson Terminal and other matters in relation to temporary/permanent alternatives to the WTC PATH station, click here.
PATH's GM spoke at the APTA convention here in Phila in early October and outlined that PATH was very seriously looking at returning to some portion of Hudson Terminal as soon as feasible. The big concern remains the water in the river tunnel, apparently still being fed by broken water mains, and the protective bulkhead which will remain in place until the WTC slurry wall situation can be determined.
10-20-01 First New ALP46 Unveiled
Bombardier Transportation presented the first of 29 electric multipurpose locomotives for New Jersey Transit (NJT) at a roll-out ceremony at its facility in Kassel, Germany. The design of the Class ALP 46 type electric locomotives is derived from the German Railway's Class 101. More than 145 locomotives of this type have been operating successfully for the German Railway (DB) since 1996. Press Release
7,100 Horse Power, not bad at all. To bad they couldn't have Americanized the carbody a little better. Maybe a nice hood design like the E44. Why did they limit them to 100 mph? The outside tracks on the NEC are rated for at least 110, possibly 125.
The locomotive definitely has a very sleek appearance.
Why did they limit them to 100 mph? The outside tracks on the NEC are rated for at least 110, possibly 125.
This may be true, but I don't think NJT needs to have super-fast trains running to meet their schedule needs. Of course it would be a PRO to have them at a higher speed, but during a normal local or express run, NJT trains never reach over 100mph.
By the way, the longest stretch of performing a constant speed is between New Brunswick and Princeton Jct. NJT trains travel at around a high speed for 8-10 minutes before they need to slow down.
Years ago, I was on an Arrow III EMU that did 96mph on the little stretch between NWK and Broad St. Elizabeth.
The engineer had the silverplate down and I peeped through the red digital speedometer and it read 96.
After all, the Comet IV cartype design by Bombardier has its maximum speed to 77 1/2 mph. I honestly don't know why it has to be that slow, but they made it that way.
The overall performance of ALP46 is better than that of ALP44's currently in NJT service, since it can produce more power to pull more cars.
I can't wait to see them in service.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I'm putting together a quick checklist to help myself recognize the various R-types currently running. By observing things like whether the storm door is flush or recessed, whether the anti-climber is full width or only as wide as the door, and the orientation of the headlight/taillight pair, it's pretty easy to tell the types apart.
But here's where I'm stuck. How do you tell the difference between these three pairs: R40M vs R42, R44 vs R46, and R68 vs R68A? They look identical to my untrained eye. (And, yes, I know the car numbers are different, but that's "cheating".)
And, by the way, were the R44/R46 dot matrix destination signs part of the original build or were they added during the overhaul? If original, why did the 68's go back to roll signs?
Thanks,
Bill
As far as the R40M and the 42, the 40M still has the side body panels from the R40 - a notch for the blue belt rail. Plus the 40M has a stiffern under each passenger door. The R42 has none of these items. Also the R40M came with a shorter end window.
Phil Hom
And as to the LCD side signs on the R-44 and R-46 cars, they were retrofitted onto the cars during their General Overhaul (GOH) circa 1990. The R-68s were ordered in 1982 and came in from 1986 to 1988.
David
AND the R40M has the same elongated storm door window at the "B" end as well as the cutout notch on the left side of the door jamb. The handholds opposite the cabs are the same as the R40s, not like the 42s
wayne
Is it accurate to say that, except for the A ends, R-40's and R-40M's are identical?
Hey Wayne, should we tell everyone about the carspotting lesson you gave to that T/O on the M line on the 25th? He didn't realize there were R-42s on the M.
How about his tip on how to ID a modified/unmodified R-32, i.e. square vs. round door key slot.
Mr t__:^)
The R-40M have the same side panels as the R-40S, that is, they have a notch about 2/3 of the way down the carbody as well as finer grooves below it, as visible in this picture: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40-4294.jpg
The R-42 have no notch and wider grooves, as visible here: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r42/r42-4685.jpg
The R-44 and R-46 are nearly identical both externally and internally. Luckily, there is a major difference both on the inside and on the outside that sets them apart. On the outside, both classes originally had a stripe running around the car. On the R-46s, this was either painted stainless steel that was later stripped, or painted LAHT that was replaced with stainless--either way, the R-44s merely had theirs painted over silver. You can tell an R-44 by the dull silver stripe covered in rust-spots.Here is a picture: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r4446/r44-5329.jpg
Inside, the R-44 have glass shields in the frames between the seats and the doors, presumably to protect the passengers from weather and people leaning near the doors. These are absent from the R-46.
As for the R-68/68A, I've never noticed any visible differences. The machinery is slightly different and makes different noises, but the most reliable way to tell them apart is car numbers: R-68s have car numbers in the 2000s, whereas R-68As have numbers in the 5000s.
Dan
PS: Sorry for not posting links, it wasn't working. Don't know why.
The R68 has gutters above the door that run the length of the cars like the R44 and R46. The R68A has gutters just above each door. Also, I think that the R68A has a greyer, more brushed, less reflective stainless steel. I think that there are other differences as well.
This has been discussed in the past but there are at least 12 cosmetic differences between the R-68 and 68As.
In addition to the 2 mentioned above by Marc, here are some of the others:
Side sign boxes are smaller on the 68s, the holes used to change them are protruding on the 68s, flush on the 68As.
The window that has the sign box in it is 2 pieces on the 68, one piece on the 68A.
The point where the lower hand rail meets the vertical grab bar is welded on the 68A's on the 68s it is fittings (upper meeting point is fittings on both).
Full width cab doors are pocket doors on 68As, hinged on the 68s.
HVAC access panels on 68As have small pieces of plastic which are there to prevent the paint from being chipped when the doors are open (placed stategically where the open panel would contact the grab rail).
Door motor access panels have smaller mouldings on the 68As.
Small window on "B" end cab doors is flush on 68As, not so on 68s.
Underseat heating units are larger and bulkier on 68s.
There are also differences in the window latches.
There are more that I can't recall right now.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-40M and R-42 have very different interiors as well. Basically, the R-40M is just like the R-40 except that the front end is borrowed from the R-42. The R-40M seats are shaped funny; the R-42 seats are very similar to the R-32, R-38, and Redbird seats. The R-40M has a cutout in the frame for each rollsign; the R-42 has a unified sign box. The R-40M has a lot more painted metal than the R-42. Personally, I find the R-40/40M interior quite dated, almost worn out (much moreso than the interiors of even older cars still running), while the R-42 still has pep -- but if you don't happen to share my opinions, this won't work for you.
Dan gives the most prominent distinctions between the R-44 and R-46. Another is that the cab door slides on the R-46 but swings on the R-44. (It's also narrow on the R-44, as is the cab itself.) And this is cheating, but it works: if it's on the A or the Rockaway Park shuttle (or the overnight Lefferts shuttle, I presume), it's an R-44; otherwise it's an R-46.
The most obvious difference between the R-68 and R-68A is in the (transverse) cab door. It swings on the R-68 (but it's not narrow) and it slides on the R-68A (and even has a little cut-out notch for the handle, like on the R-40). Another difference -- very minor -- is that where the overhead bars join on the R-68A, they do so seamlessly (like on the R-62/62A, which also has seamless joins down below). (I didn't explain it well; look at the overhead bars and you'll see what I mean.)
Now for a real challenge: R-62 vs. R-62A. Any takers?
Now for a real challenge: R-62 vs. R-62A. Any takers?
Been there, done that.
I know the differences between the R-62s and the R-62As. Look at the car numbers. The R-62s are numbered 1301-1625. The R-62As are numbered 1651-2475.
#3 West End Jeff
Hmmmm, maybe I better ride in the R42s again. Their seats felt more like R40 seats than Redbird, R32 or R38 seats to me. They also should have kept the larger storm door windows that the R40M's and R42's originally had. The smaller ones look so out of place on those cars.
As for the R62's and R62A's, the R62's have exterior speakers just like the R142's, R142A's and R143's, while the R62A's don't.
Personally, I prefer the shorter-but-wider railfan windows on the non-R-40's -- if nothing else, they're better when two people (of similar height) are attempting to share the window. The tall R-40 windows do provide a dash of excitement, though.
No, no - I meant the original longer and wider railfan windows on the R40M's and R42's, the ones they had before they were GOH'ed. When the R40M's and R42's were GOH'ed they got the same size railfan window as on the R32's, R38's and Redbirds. The smaller railfan windows look grossly out of place on the R40M's and R42's with their large bulkhead windows.
Actually the front windows on the R40M are just a little bit shorter than those of the R42.
AND there are NO handholds between the B ends on ANY R40M.
wayne
You guys are right. I wish they rebuilt those cars using the same size windows that they had, just like the R-32's and R-38's did.
Yeah but, what is the difference between the r1's and the r9's?
OK, here goes.
The R-1s and R-4s had storm doors with one large pane of glass. The window kicked in by Sylvester Stallone in Nighthawks is that of an R-1 or R-4. R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s had storm doors with a split window. I also seem to recall the R-1s had brass moldings around each side sign while later cars had rubber weatherstripping. This is based on observations of R-1 100 and R-4 484 at the Transit Museum. The doors sounded differently on R-1s and R-4s than on later cars. On the former, they sounded like a sheet of construction paper being shaken while on the latter, they made an "uurr-rrrrr" sound as they closed.
None of the R-1s ever got headlights. Some R-4s got them while others did not. All R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s got headlights.
All cars from the R-1 through R-9 classes could and did operate together.
I'm sure other regulars can point out other nuances.
Yep, the R-44s are assigned exclusively to the A (Boooo!) and Rockaway Park Shuttle. The R-46s all originate from Jamaica Yard and are found on routes based from that yard.
Now for a real challenge: R-62 vs. R-62A. Any takers?
The biggest difference I can see is in the rollsigns. The destinations are in a single line on the R62s and a double line on the R62As.
:-) Andrew
I don't think they're always like that. Usually, yes.
The end sign on a 68A is 90% of the time situated higher than on a 68. There are a couple exceptions (2900 comes to mind).
R68: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r68/r68-2614.jpg
R68A: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r68/r68-5106.jpg
One surefire way to tell the difference between a 68 and a 68A is to look at the upper sash window. The sash is noticeably larger on a 68A than on a 68, and the 68 uses a smaller sheet of glass.
R68: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r68/r68-2604.jpg
R68A: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r68/r68a-5172.jpg
Gee you can't tell a Hippo (R-68) from a Rino (R46) ... just kidding.
Some of us just don't care, but keep the faith.
Mr t__:^)
Oh, I know the difference between a Hippo and a Rhino. I'm trying to differentiate 30 year old Rhinos from 28 year old Rhinos and 15 year old Hippos from 13 year old Hippos.
And actually, Thurston, this is a bold new step from me. I'm finally acknowledging that there may be life after the redbirds (but not much).
Bill
Yes we have to adjust ... so keep on the lookout for a R-62 with a Railfan window or catch a Slant 40 or a R-32 or a R-38. Hippos, Rinos & the rest are just for commuters :-(
That is unless you bring your own entertainment ... on the special Fall Foilage trip out of the yard at the Croton-Harmon we had a birthday party for our trolley mentor.
Mr t__:^)
Telling an R40M from an R42
Exterior
R40M-ridges are narrow and close together, like the slant R40
R42-ridges are wider and further apart, sort of like the R32 and R38.
Interior walls:
R40M-like the R40 slants, and R32 and R38 and redbirds, the interior is just about all tan.
R42-interior is stainless steel on the sides, a precursor to the R62/62A and R68/68A. The front and rear interior is still tan.
Rollsigns
R40M-as with the slants, the interior rollsign is in oval frames.
R42-not in frame, sort of like the R62/A and R68/A.
:-) Andrew
OOOOO, I love this... pick me! Pick me! ... hehe, anyway... :
40M and 42:
The interior of the 40M is just like a 40 except one end has the shorter window like a 32 while the other end has the window like a 40S. The thing with the red light bulb that lights up on the 42 is stainless steel while on the 40M, it's yellow. Like MisterK said, the roll signs are different. (oval, and not oval) Another thing about the rollsigns are on 40Ms, they just don't look like they fit. They look older and on 42s, it seems smoother. Also R40M seats are just like the R40S seats. The seats on the R42 have a bigger and better ass groove. I personally do not believe that those seats on the 42 are like 32 seats (definetly not) or the redbirds. I say that because the seats on the R32 are WAY taller (on the back for back suppport) than those on the 42. The seats on the 42 only go to the mid back, while the seats on the 32 go to the upper back or the neck depending on your height.
44 and 46:
I've learned a lot from you guys. There's the window/glass on the seat next to the door for the 44, but everyone knows that. I figured it out by sounds from the brakes. The sound from the 44 is louder and has more of a pffffft or earrrrrrkt sound, or maybe both of them combined. I can't explain it... The ones on the 46 seem more quiet and smooth sounding.
As for 68 and 68A, there's plenty (some I'm not gonna explain well, it's like a 6th sense for me...):
68As seem shinier on the outside and the end signs are brighter and clearer. (one of my 6th senses that can't be explained well) One difference that I saw no one mention are the seats. The seats on 68As look like they have lines, like the back of your hand, except the lines are farther apart. The molding under the side windows, the color of rollsigns, and the ceiling are also smoother (if there's no grafiti), glossier, and more brownish then the 68. Someone mentioned the way the bars are connected. The bars themselves are differnt too I think. The ones on 68As are more like a mirror while those on 68s are more like the smooth-touching kind of stainless steel. The rollsigns are differnt too. Ones on 68As are flatter while ones on 68s have a "slight overall" curve outward. The interior rollsigns on 68s also have the little round silver thing to the side of each sign, the left letter, and right of both terminals unless one fell off or something. Also the windows on the sides. The ones on 68As have the flat black strip running around it with the stainless steel border between the window and the before mentioned black rubber thing. The 68, I'm not sure if it has the stainless steel border, but the black rubber has a bump in the middle of the rubber. It's like another layer of rubber that can be peeled off, if it's peeled off, it leaves a deep groove in the surrounding black rubber. The 68A windows seem higher and thinner than the 68 windows. The lighting effect effect of the 2 cars are different as well. It's not the brightness, but the color effect, guess this is one of my 6th sense things...
If I'm wrong on anything please do say so, I'd like to see how much I actually know...
I learned on an R68 something. When I finally got my hands dirty, it was a Redbird something. Now I switch back and forth between DoityBoids and R142s. I have no idea of car diffences other than letter/number WORLDS and sure am grateful for what I learn here. Peter
One more: IINM, R-44 doors close more slowly than R-46 doors.
I noticed that, too. I liken the R-44 doors to those on the BMT standards in terms of how fast they open and close.
Dear Bill:
For what its worth (apologies for any repitition), here are some quick ways to tell:
R-32s have narrower doors and exterior fluting all the way from eaves to floorline. R-38s have wider doors and fluting only halfway up the sides. Number board styling entirely different.
R-40M and R-42 have different side fluting. 40M has middrif notch and finer fluting.
R-44s have sheet lengthwise metal middrif body panel now painted silver. This was done by St. Louis Car during construction to save $$$ and weight. In days of yore it was the blue stripe. Pullman-built R-46s have total stainless steel external shell.
Not sure about now but R-46s had little door panels on the fiberglass beneath the headlight/marker cluster. R-44s had no such panel.
End rollsign positions differ on all three R-68 types. 2500-2724 have LOW, low signs. 2725-2924 have slightly higher signs. R-68As have fairly high signs.
That's what I recall off top of my head.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
This afternoon I headed to South Station, to take MBTA Commuter Rail train #815 to Mansfield. The "slots" on the Northeast Corridor from Boston to Providence are very tight, as it's three-tracked from Boston to Readville, then two-tracked to Providence (and beyond). All of the MBTA service is meshed between the newly expanded Amtrak service, including the hourly Acela Express runs. (See map at: .)
815 is due to leave South Station at 4:35pm, and stop at Back Bay, Ruggles, Route 128, Sharon, and then arrive at Mansfield at 5:16pm before continuing on to Providence. We were delayed ten minutes at South Station. Why? Someone found a "suspicious package" and the police had to be called to check it out. The result? Someone's lunch trash bag. Wonderful. But by then, the dispatcher had thoughtfully allowed #917 to depart, the 4:40pm local to Stoughton. Stoughton trains share trackage with Providence trains until Canton Junction. So we on 815 crawled behind 917, which makes additional stops at Hyde Park and Canton Junction.
Finally! We have clear track ahead. But lo and behold, it's raining out, and freshly fallen leaves have been crushed on the rail, making for steel more slippery than ice. From Canton Junction it is uphill through Sharon, and half-way to Mansfield. The lead engine, we were later told, had no sand. So the poor F40PH 3000hp engine is trying to pull five bi-levels and two single-level coaches (with well over 1000 people on-board) uphill. The spin-slide system kicks in, and we inch forward at two or three miles an hour from Canton Junction to Sharon. It's now 5:45pm, and trains are backing up behind us. Sharon station is on an uphill, and the grade becomes even steeper ahead. We creep and crawl; I'm in the first coach behind the engine, and can feel the spin-slide work. About one mile from the crest of the hill, the engine just won't go any further. The conductor goes into the engine to confer with the engineer, and then I see him head to the rear end. They have an idea -- get permission to back-up, and spread what little sand is in the control cab (at the rear end) onto the rail, and they try to get a running start up the hill. So back we go; then stop; then begin forward. It worked! By 6:15pm, we made it to Mansfield -- an hour late. The conductor told me that the train following, the 5:03pm departure #817 to Providence was stuck too, and the Acela Regional following it was trying to push it up the hill. (I asked if the AEM-7 had compatible couplings for air, and he said it does!)
SINCE THIS IS A KNOWN PROBLEM EVERY YEAR DURING THE AUTUMN, WHY DID THE MBTA SEND ITS ENGINES OUT WITHOUT SAND?
At least I'll get a refund, under the "Service Guarantee," patrons receive a round-trip voucher for trains over 30 minutes late. Even we pass-holders can exchange these for cash.
Postscript: While chatting with the conductor, I told him about the NYCTA gel train. He had never heard of such a thing!
>>SINCE THIS IS A KNOWN PROBLEM EVERY
YEAR DURING THE AUTUMN, WHY DID THE
MBTA SEND ITS ENGINES OUT WITHOUT SAND?<<
And who actually operates these trains for the T? ATK I believe.
BTW on the Friday before Labor Day weekend I was on an Acela Exp. which "according to an ATK employee" had come south from Boston with NO WATER in the First Class car. So the operative questions are what are the procedures for "correctimg" these lapses by personnel? Can ATK EVER get a handle on service quality?
You are correct, David.
Amtrak operates the MBTA Commuter Rail under contract.
Compared to the LIRR, the MBTA Commuter Rail is a gem. Then again, there are days like yesterday...
Todd, Although a train freak of many decades I HAVE NEVER ridden the route of the square wheel (old name for LIRR) To me the standard for commuter service was the IC 'Suburban Service' MU Electrics with impeccable on time habits, and when I lived in Chgo years back very frequent service. And the cars were well maintained and clean.--sort of like how it should be.
The LIRR's 'square wheel' problem is more related to an aging signal system and aging speed control on an aging fleet. It's very common to be traveling at 70+ MPH and get a code flip or loss of speed control signal that'll put the train into emergency. We had one on the Babylon Branch friday AM around Lynbrook. Once I felt the jerky stop and smelled the composition shoes burning, the result was predictable. When we started up again we had 3-4" flats on all wheels (guestimate) and a sure trip to the wheel truing machine.
Doesn't sound too good for those M7's when they arrive. I smell and hear the flat wheel problem on them too!
They have that problem with the Bi-level cars. Remember the old diesel coaches going up Cold Spring Hill, on the Port Jeff Branch? That was part of it as well.
Much will depend on the braking system that's chosen. Keep in mind that once the M-1 or M-3 goes into emergency, just as on the NYCT fleet, there is only a pneumatic brake to stop the train. As I understand it, the slip-slide is taken out of the loop. If the M-7s employ anti-lock technology - even in emergency, this problem can be avoided.
If the M-7s employ anti-lock technology - even in emergency, this problem can be avoided.
If memory serves me right wasn't this feature included on the R44's? Also, if I remember correctly didn't this feature substitute flattened anti-climbers for flat wheels - especially on the SIRT?
The A-13 brake package certainly had slip-slide technology. I don't remember whether it was enabled during an emergency brake application or not. The R-46 had a similar system in its FL-85 brake package with axle tachs and a comparitor card, etc. When the Rockwell trucks were replaced, the axle tachs were gone and so was the slip-slide. In any event, by 1991 the R-44s and R-46s were reduced to normal SMEE-type railcars. As for the collisions you allude to on the SIRT, I must plead ignorance.
As for the collisions you allude to on the SIRT, I must plead ignorance.
The limited slip emergency brakes were implicated in the attempts by several R44's to board the ferry at the St. George Terminal. :-)
The limited slip feature was disabled.
Thanks. I hadn't heard about that incident.
Wonderful use of scarasm. Best line I have read all day.
Question, would not the process of flattening wheels improve stopping distance as the flatter the wheel gets the more braking area there is to stop the forward momentum by turning it into fictive heat? Yes it ruins the wheel, bit technically a BIE is for "emergencies" and in such a case maintainance should be sacrificed for safety.
"Wonderful use of scarasm. Best line I have read all day."
I guess it was a slow day in the Jersey Record, comic page.
Question, would not the process of flattening wheels improve stopping distance as the flatter the wheel gets the more braking area there is to stop the forward momentum by turning it into fictive heat? Yes it ruins the wheel, bit technically a BIE is for "emergencies" and in such a case maintainance should be sacrificed for safety.
The question is what to do after an emergency. If the train is to operate without major repairs, then the approach of intentionally flattening the wheels has serious problems. One alternate would be to make the braking surface different from the wheels. This is the principle behind track brakes.
OTOH, if this is to be a one-shot deal regardless of the consequences of an application, then you might want to consider eddy current brakes. Who cares, if the tracks have to be replaced after a brake application? :-)
"One alternate would be to make the braking surface different from the wheels."
You might want to re-think this statement. The flats are not due to the brake-wheel interaction. They are due to the wheels skidding along the rail after the wheels lock. Even if you opted for disc brakes with an inboard disc & caliper, flats would still occur if the wheels were permitted to lock.
You caught me with imprecise use of the English language.
When the wheels are locked then braking takes place between the wheel/track interface and not the brake pad/rotating surface interface. My statement, while correct, is ambiguous. I'll take your suggestion:
One alternate would be to use a surface different from the wheels to provide the friction braking effort to the rails.
Thanks.
I saw in some sort of automotive magizine a test between anti-lock brakes and normal brakes and the stopping distances for the lock brakes were shorter in many of the conditions tested. I was wondering if this was true for railroads. There are two competing factors namely wheel to rail surface area that provides stopping friction and a tendency for locked wheels to skid with reduced friction. Do you knwo anything about this? One hint might be that sanding equipment is required on locomotives to help with braking not traction. This suggests that in a true emergency you lock the wheels and apply sand for maximum stopping power (or put the train in reverse).
Reversing the motors is the same thing as applying the wheel
tread brakes. The use of sand or friction modifier gel increases
the coefficient both of static and sliding friction at the wheel/
rail interface, thus raising the amount of tractive effort that
the wheel can exert before sliding starts.
I've never before heard the suggestion that it's a good idea to
flatten wheels during emergency braking. I suppose that as the
contact area increases, the amount of sliding friction must increase
somewhat, though I doubt it would ever come close to the static
friction (non-slip) point. The maximum braking effort is attained
without slipping.
As for automotive anti-lock brakes, bear in mind that you are
dealing with a tread surface which is irregular and easily
deformed, and is also different from the roadway surface.
'Flattening the wheels' is a byproduct of high speed emergency braking...dynamic braking is shut down along with all power and the composition brake shoes stick like glue to the wheel. Flats do great damage...cars discovered during inspection are pulled for wheel truing. As for REVERSE brakage...I've done it on an icy hill with a rear wheel drive car but trains don't have transmissions, power applied isn't proportionate and cars would probably jump the tracks as a result. Peter
Understand that in a true emergency, the last consideration is whether you flatten wheels or not. The idea is to bring the equipment to a safe stop without any unplanned contactwith other objects. If the wheels are flattened and no other damage results, you're way ahead. Reversing the motors might sound like a good idea but is largely a fantasy. Once the train is in emergency, the propulsion system is disabled. Reverse - foward - makes no difference. However, if you did try to stop via this method you'd likely find that you'd trip the overload from the excessive current needed to overcome the motor's normal rotation at speed. As for sanding, I don't believe that in modern locomotive operation, sanding is provided for stopping. If you have a source that states otherwise, i'd love to see it.
Hey TD - have you been on any DDs that have popped into emergency at speed? I swear, those new cars can stop a hell of a lot quicker than the M-1s can. I remember the first few weeks of service, stops were really choppy and hard, as the crews were still not really used to the brakes on them.
i'm curious as to how slip slide works on a railcar. I doubt it can be like an auto, where you pulse the brakes. I'm guessing it's more an issue of sensing a wheel is decelerating too quickly, then backing off the brakes a certain amount, in hopes of getting to stop slipping. i once read a thing about the wheelslip control patents ASEA did back in the 70's, and it was neat. I believe the patents were eventually used in the AEM-7, FWIW. The system could react to wheelslip even if all the wheels were slipping.
I haven't been on any of the double-deckers in emergency yet. This is one reason I think the M-7s will do better than the M-1s or M-3s. Same signal system but improved ASC. The locos have conventional tread brake units supplimented by disc brakes. That accounts for their excellent brake characteristics.
Sometimes the rails in the autumn on the West Hempstead and Far Rockaway branches, particularly at Westwood and Woodmere with all the overhanging trees, are so slippery, no device but sand will work. I have been on trains with their wheels alternately locking and rolling at 30 MPH with no ability to stop, and they overshhot stations by a train length. They often run a locomotive during the night to drop sand.
The MBTA needs to borrow the TA's VAKTRAK.
Excellent idea!!! They could also have WEP workers sweep the tracks with brooms.
Hey Todd, this would be a great subject for a "write to the top" email. Let us know what Stephen Jones says!
Somehow the link to the MBTA commuter rail map didn't post right in my original message. Here it is:
MBTA Commuter Rail.
VacTrak Sucks (pun.) What was really needed was the TA Gel Train..it puts some kind of caustic glop on the rails to dissolve leaves. Peter
Todd, despite the LIRR's shortcomings, they take a more pro-active approach to fallen leaves and slippery rails. They run a 'slime train' during the early morning hours. This train spreads an adhesive goop on the rails to overcome the problem. The TA also uses this procedure in many areas such as on the Brighton line south of Newkirk Avenue.
right you are. I have made many $$$$$$$$$$ working my relief days the last few weeks as a Brakeman on the "Slime Trains"
Question about the slime train if you don't mind. What is the current consist of the train? I thought I saw a single M-1 sandwhiched between to MP-15s last week staged out at Hillside.
Several weeks ago, I saw the slime train (Gel train?) in the 239th shops. My buddy Fred was changing out brake shoes and pointed out what the car was for. I'm no expert (yet) but I thought it was just an ordinary emptied out subway car with no windows attached to to or three utility wagons. Peter
I was referring to the consist of the LIRR Slime train but thanks for the info.
IF there is some way to bring back subway lines today that were taken away in the past I said we would all be greatly benifiting from it. Like the NX line, dashes people from Coney Island to Lower and Midtown Manhattan with in 30 minutes. The MJ line to get you from Queens to Downtown Brooklyn. The KK line would get people From Jamaica Center or Metropolitan Avenue to Midtown Manhattan without transfering. The JJ would get people from Carnarsie to Downtown Manhattan.
I say these lines would be such a great help today, and it doesn't need any new expensive connections, just more subway cars.
A lot of the switches to allow these configurations are probably still in place.
I agree with you, Chris. For example, the "V" - why terminate it at 2nd Avenue? Run it the heck out to Canarsie, with 8-car trains of Jamaica R32s. It works on the "C", should work here too.
wayne
Speaking of Canarsie, why not extend the Canarsie Line to the pier as it used to be!
Much of the ROW has been built over.
They could go down the middle of Rockaway Parkway! :)
Sure, if you'd fit the cars with trolley poles or pantographs.:-)
Naw, just concrete barries to separate the trains from the roads and four point crossing gates at the intersections.
I'll buy that.:-)
A more useful extension would be to continue south, turning west onto Flatlands Ave. No subway service currently exists in this heavily populated area of Brooklyn.
It never wemt to the Pier, there was always a free transfer, to trolley or bus
I don't think Blimpie's, the Wicker Man (the furniture guy on Glenwood), the Knights of Colvmbvs or the guy that runs the Doghouse Yard on Flatlands would appreciate that.
wayne
I can just see a train BMT standards slamming through those buildings that now occupy the former ROW.
We ate at that Blimpie's on our first railfanning expedition.
What doghouse yard? The gravel parking lot of the Canarsie Grill occupies the row on Flatlands.
Wouldn't that mean getting rid of the Z, and making the J all stops east of ENY, express West of ENY ?
why not use the old connection between the 6th IND to the Nassau BMT and bring the V out to replace Z service in brooklyn (at least) instead of this dumb 2nd Ave terminal?
Then Queens Blvd and 53rd Street gets 8 car trains. WIth 53rd Street service cut 25%, that is not a good idea.
If the V went via 63rd. St, then 8 car R32's would be acceptable. These trains would still be longer than current G trains and would run more frequently.
The V would do more if it were extended to Church Ave. Eastern division ridership doesn't justify another route. And running extra trains into Canarsie limits the amount of L service to 8th Ave, and the Canarsie line's heaviest usage is west of Atlantic Ave.
I would definitely support the return of KK service. While reading the CCS transit improvement plan for Brooklyn, I noticed they had an idea for a Willy B-6th Avenue service as part of improving that line's service to Midtown Manhattan. It basically sounds like it combines the B and M trains into one line. I think it could be really popular, especially if it runs full time or at least all times except midnight-5 AM. I guess it would run from 168th Street/Broadway to Metropolitan Avenue through the Chrystie Street connection, which means the C would go back to terminating at Bedford Park.
(I would definitely support the return of KK service. While reading the CCS transit improvement plan for Brooklyn, I noticed they had an idea for a Willy B-6th Avenue service as part of improving that
line's service to Midtown Manhattan. It basically sounds like it combines the B and M trains into one line.)
The way to do it is to combine the V with the J/Z as a 6th Avenue local train (the connection from the Willie B is to the local track, not the express). I wrote a letter to the MTA suggesting this, before joining the TA. Nearly 3/4 of the CBD's jobs were north of Grand at the time I wrote the letter, so having 2/3 of the Willie B trains go north made sense.
It makes more sense now, even though the V would have to use 60 foot cars.
But the V would also be restricted to 8-car trains, which would underserve Queens Boulevard.
When this came up last, I suggested merging the C and the J. Both already run 8-car trains. The V could continue, via the Cranberry tunnel, to Euclid (or, better, Lefferts, taking the place of the A). Or terminate the V at WTC and send the E into Brooklyn. (Or something like that.) Passengers from the J headed for lower Manhattan would transfer to the M, or perhaps the Z would keep its current south terminal (I'm not sure how the numbers work out).
Run the Via via Brighton Local to Coney Island, The Q as a Broadway Exp, Run the KK and B as one to Bedford Pk Blvd
For that you'll have to wait until 2004 or so. My plan could be put into action now.
Oh POOH with the 8-car trains! They'll do, they'll do! If you run enough of them, they'll do. I have yet to hear many complaints about the "C" or the "L" being 8 @60'-cars.
wayne
The whole point of introducing the V is to increase Queens Boulevard service. Unless you want to prove that the 63rd Street connection was a waste of money, all trains on the line should be full-length.
Then if the "V" isn't the logical test for a new Brooklyn-Manhattan service, why not try the "B" (renamed the "K") from Concourse/Upper Manhattan via 6 Ave? I know, they run R68s. That can be changed by obtaining R32 cars from the "C" and assigning that R68 squad to Pitkin. It would be less of an impact running 8-cars on THAT line than it would on a key Queens service.
Somehow, I feel that the Chrystie connection is viable. Perhaps someone could spend some time down at Delancey & Essex polling the transferring "J" to "F" riders to see if reopening the connection would be welcome.
wayne
The B is definitely a more viable option than the V. But why not the C, which already has trains of the necessary length? The 6th Avenue local tracks will get crowded if they're shared by the B, F, and V.
They don't have to be. The V could run through the 63rd St tunnel (instead of the 53rd as the TA is planning to run it) and enter Rockerfeller Center on the express tracks with the B and D. The B, D and V would share tracks at 47th-50th and 42nd, much like the B, D and Q did before July 22nd. But between 42nd and 34th, the B can switch over to the local tracks and continue past 34th over the local tracks to the Willy B connecting tracks.
The advantage the B has over the C is that more office buildings are closer to 6th Avenue and 53rd Street than to 8th Avenue. The C can always go to eight-car trains of R68's.
It's not a bad idea, but the TA has good reason to run the F through 63rd.
> the B can switch over to the local tracks and continue past 34th >over the local tracks to the Willy B connecting tracks
Where do you take the train sets from? Everytime services cross you lose time. That is part of the reason you have no Manhattan expresses from Queens.
>The C can always go to eight-car trains of R68's.
Not without realigning all the yards. Who will shop that equipment? And will you redo Bedford to take 38's?
They could swap the B and C terminals back to what they were and realign them once again with the original IND letter code.
A) The D/Q and B/W will be reunited and no changes are intended to give any contrary impression.
B) The current C is a perfect job, not too much work not too little and is almost aligned with the right number of relay and layup tracks.
Yes, I am lazy but I have also managed employees, getting not too much work out of them and nmot too little is important.
C) More choices sounds nice but segregating the 8th and 6th ave service keeps things moving better.
D) if 50th st was not a problem they could make the A/C both manhattan expresses and the B/D both locals (switching the F and V to expresses) and move even faster.
There has always been along CPW a 6th Ave Exp and 6th Ave Local, and a 8th Ave Exp and 8th Ave Local
True but and 50th st is a problem so that won't change. I do think it would be an interesting proposition. It would also allow the same signalling they are putting on the L to be practical for a large strectch of the A/C and B/D line.
59th St might become the Roosevelt Ave of Manhattan and that alone is enough to kill the idea
It would also make the D a horrible line to be a T/O on once the bridge is back and I won't be a party to that.
59th St might become the Roosevelt Ave of Manhattan and that alone is enough to kill the idea
How do you mean?
Dan
Massive numbers of people transfering, people gettting pushed to their deaths (I got to witness that in 85 or 86).
Roosevelt is certainly one of the worst stations in the system, crowding-wise. 60th/Lex BMT is worse during rush hour at the west end of the platform.
Dan
Doesn't segregating services lead to unbalanced loading with the expresses more crowded? The incentive to stay on the local (B, C, or Q local), less crowding, is counteracted by the preception that the express (D, A, or Q express) is much faster. I have head that this is one reason the TA does not want F Brooklyn express service as it existed in the early 1970s: the expresses would be overcrowded relative to the locals. At least when the express and local offer different Manhattan trunk line services, there is more incentive to ride the local.
This is all really short-changing lower Manhattan. First Z trains gets diverted up 6th Avenue, already E trains are cutback to Canal, now C trains would no longer go to either Chambers or Bway/Nassau/Fulton.
By my proposal, the V would go to WTC (which, as I said, could be reopened) and the E would go to Euclid or Lefferts.
Lower Manhattan is overserved now. Some of that service should go uptown.
The TA doesn't like using West 4th crossovers, or for that matter, Dekalb's, and is screaming and kicking over 96th Street.
Any use of the Chrystie St. connection without using the V train will mean three lines will have to share trackage at some point, either south of Rockefeller Center or at least between West Fourth and B'way-Lafayette.
Using the C train makes the most sence from an 8-car train standpoint, but that would leave Fulton Street in Brooklyn without any local service unless the V train was routed either at West Fourth or at Jay Street onto the Eighth Ave. tracks, which could handle the V's planned 600-foot trains.
Whether or not the MTA would want to add the extra switching is another question, and IMHO, the resumption of the Chrystie connection only makes sence if the train is routed down to Rockaway Pkwy., giving passengers there a one-seat ride into midtown. But with the CTBC testing of the R-143s coming up, the L line will have to be isolated for at least the next 6-8 years, and a Chrsystie St. link teminating either at Broadway Junction or Parsons-Archer would probably meet the same disappointing ridership fate at the KK trains did 30 years ago.
Why can't the Chrystie St service terminate at Metropolitan Av?
Three trains shared the 6th Avenue express tracks from 1989 to July 20, 2001: The B, D and Q. If the B runs through the Chrystie Street connection over the Willy B, it could share the express tracks with the D and V at 47th-50th and 42nd, then switch over to the local tracks before entering 34th Street.
So long as the V doesn't terminate at Second Ave. and runs through with the F to Brooklyn, you probably could get away with it. But if it ends there then you would have three different lines going in three difference directions south of B'way-Lafayette -- the B or C train to Essex, the F to the outer platform at Second Ave. and the V to the inner platform. Very convaluted to try and run trains to three seperate locations without delays. The B, D and Q only had one split at either end -- the Q splitting from the B and D at Rockefeller Center and the B splitting from the D and Q between the Manny B and DeKalb.
Assuming the MTA has the cars after the R-143s fully arrive, sending the V either to Church Ave. or Euclid would solve part of that problem.
As for terminating the B or C (or V) at Metropolitan, I don't know if the loop down to B'way in Brooklyn and then back up would be faster for passengers north of Wycoff than to just transfer there to the L and take it in, either to Sixth or Eighth Aves and transfer back to the V or F (at Sixth) or the A, C or E (at Eighth). Running the line to Rockaway Parkway in the future after CTBC is added to other lines would make more sense, since that route would provide a service that wouldn't have such an obvious "shortcut route," unless someone wanted to change to the A/C at East New York and swtich back at West Fourth. Given the trip downstairs and the straighter route of the B'way-Brooklyn line, I doubt they'd save any time at all going that way.
What about Broadway Junction? It's going to be a long time before CBTC is added to the main B-Division trunk lines. In the meantime, the B could operate to Broadway Junction. And it could run express from Bway-Junction to Essex during rush hours.
You may be right about M riders transfering to the L at Wyckoff. That may be faster than looping down to Bway-Brooklyn, over the Willy B then back up 6th Avenue, even with the need to make two transfers. Then the B should run to Broadway Junction.
Oh, just to add - the old K service that ran from Broadway Junction to 57th & 6th only ran during rush hours and was local in Brooklyn. The new B service should run full time or at least all times except midnight-5AM and should run express from Bway Jct to Essex. That would make it much more useful.
Why can't the Chrystie St service terminate at Metropolitan Av?
It could, but 6th Ave service would require more service than the current M train. This would mean more service than necessary on this end of the route.
Three trains shared the 6th Avenue express tracks from 1989 to July 20, 2001: The B, D and Q,
these trains never ran at more than 10 TPH, or 30 TPH in total. with your proposal, it would mean 36 TPH. remember, the f train runs at a very tight 14 tph during rush hours to/from queens.
Your first and second paragraphs contradict. If the C runs over the Manhattan Bridge and the V takes its place south of W4, at no point (in this picture) do three lines share the same set of tracks.
Technically, they wouldn't share tracks. But a switch at West Fourth would require the C and E trains upstairs to coordinate pretty precicely with the F and V trains downstairs to make sure there weren't any backups since you'd be doing a double switch south of West Fourth -- C to the Houston St. tracks and the V continuing along Sixth Ave. to Spring St. -- which would be as delicate a situation as having the three lines sharing the same tracks between W. Fourth and B'way-Lafayette.
I would think the easiest switching pattern with the best use of the rolling stock would be to switch the Cto the Houston St. tracks south of West Fourth and then to the Chrsytie connection east of B'way-Lafayette, while the V would continue through the Rutgers tunnel and then switch to the A-Fulton tracks at Jay Street. That would eliminate the extra punch at B'way-Lafayette to the center tracks at Second Ave., and while it would cut service on the Eighth Ave. line between Jay and West Fourth, to be honest, that route probably isn't going to need the same level of service to lower Manhattan for the next few years.
O run the V out as a local to Coney island via the Brighton. Keep the Q on Broadway as Express, and eventually the D will be back
Unless you want to prove that the 63rd Street connection was a waste of money, all trains on the line should be full-length.
The new Queens Blvd routings will result in fewer cars per hour going into Manhattan than they had in the 1950's.
But there will be more cars per hour than in 2000, correct? I think we all know by now that, for better or for worse, operating procedures have changed over the past 50 years.
The major change in "operating procedures" has been to reduce service. Management has raised some "operating procedure changes issue" to deflect criticism that they are not making full use of their capital resources.
However, if the TA's equipment had the braking performance and operational flexibility of the R1-9 rolling stock then they could use today's operating procedures with the schedules from 50 years ago. Was the 63rd St connector necessary - no.
No they could not. Signal control and operating rules keep distances between trains are longer than they were in the past. Yes faster equipment would help but too many reckless T/Os and sharp lawyers killed that.
20 years ago people on the IRT between 42nd and 72 would fall on the floor regularly from the speeds on those trains and the braking.
Dwell times are up because of fewer C/R's on the train and the platforms.
The signals on the bridges are also time killers that extra speed would not help.
The 63rd street line ''as conceived'' was a great idea,as built,well thats another story all together.but the point is ,it was completed and should be used. I MAY disagree with the T.A from an operational standpoint about how the new tunnel and subway route will be used,but it WILL BE USED. And thats what its all about,isn't it?
It already is a winner. It has saved some bad days in Queens from being worse. Brooklyn had more flexibility with the Tunnel and half a bridge and the A/F crossovers than Queens does. A dead train is not as disasterous as it was before the cut was used.
Those single track GOs between 53/Lex and Queens Plaza were nightmares.
Those single track GOs between 53/Lex and Queens Plaza were nightmares.
They were not a problem in the past. It takes less than 5 minutes to go between 23-Ely and Lex. That means a single track would work with 10 minute night time headways in each direction. All it takes is alert tower operators and maintaining a properly designed schedule.
First of all timetables rarely survive the midnights, they never consider the slow worktrains that always need some sort of reverse move.
Did you ride them? I did and while I did get by in 10 minutes, 20 was more likely and 40 was possible. More like they held you at 5th until the S/B cleared lex and N/B I believe you had to change trains and platforms at QP.
The 63rd st connector gets rid of this completely.
Did you ride them?
I most certainly rode the subways when there was single track operation of the 53rd St tunnel (at night). They maintained their normal schedule. Unlike the Flushing line they did not even have to post notices because there were no platform changes.
Of course in those days the schedule makers were sufficiently intelligent to make the schedules to acommodate single track operation without any delays. Today's schedule makers provide conflicts for such operation.
This was a restricted speed affair and to continue north I had to go to 3 track at the Plaza.
This thing was long enough that I started riding the 7 or taking the LIRR.
Since I was not in Transit at the time it is hard to go back and pick up clues as to what went on back then. Either the flagging was over a wide area or it was run as an absolute block not signal protected.
As an aside it is infuriating for someone to tell me something did not happen because the timetable says ..... or the bridge timers say 25 mph and you are only going 19 you are not a good TO.
Signal control and operating rules keep distances between trains are longer than they were in the past. Yes faster equipment would help but too many reckless T/Os and sharp lawyers killed that.
Your are confusing operating frequency with operating speed.
Minimum distance between a leader and its follower occurs when a train approaches a station. These distances have not changed. The only times that are important for operating frequency are the time it takes a train to come to a stop within a station, the time it takes a train to get out of a station and the time that a train remains in a station. The time that it takes to go between stations does not influence minimum headways.
Dwell times are up because of fewer C/R's on the train and the platforms.
Dwell times are up because headways have increased relative to passenger loads. More C/R's on the train would decrease dwell time. My measurements show that platform codnctors increase dwell time.
>Your are confusing operating frequency with operating speed.
I don't think so. You raised the chimera of the old timetable being possible with faster and better breaking trains with current rules. I am saying you can't do it with current rules becasue there is no where for these trains to fit anymore. The conga line kicks in much faster now.
>The only times that are important for operating frequency are the >time it takes a train to come to a stop within a station, the time >it takes a train to get out of a station and the time that a train >remains in a station. The time that it takes to go between stations >does not influence minimum headways.
Maybe the official distances have stayed the same but 50 years ago I could key up much closer to my leader. Even as a teen I remember seeing trains 10 feet behind their leader. You do this at the risk of your job now.
OK before I get stomped on let me clarify this. With faster equipment you could get more tph with current rules but no 40 TPH.
With faster equipment you could get more tph with current rules but no 40 TPH.
You could proabably get to 40 tph with current equipment. You can also prove it to yourself. There's usually a signal just beyond a station that controls whether of not the train can leave the station. Go to any station that this signal does not also protect an interlocking. For each time this signal is green record the time between a train starts to leave this station until it turns green again. This time interval will be less than 90 seconds (usually in the 75-85 second range).
You should certainly get to the 32-35 tph range. They are currently running in the 25-27 tph range (103 second headways).
>For each time this signal is green record the time between a train >starts to leave this station until it turns green again. This time >interval will be less than 90 seconds (usually in the 75-85 second >range).
Yes, yes, yes.
What you guys don't get is that if I am behind him at a stop as close as allowed (without keying a signal) I can't get in, stop, open, close and be ready to leave by the time that signal turns green at many places.
On the midnights I experience this all the time. Even with no passenger load and a fast C/R in some places I can do it perfectly and just get the yellow and in others the leader disappears in a sea of green and he is for sure more than 2 minutes away from me.
What you guys don't get is that if I am behind him at a stop as close as allowed (without keying a signal) I can't get in, stop, open, close and be ready to leave by the time that signal turns green at many places.
If it takes 75-85 seconds for the signal to turn green after a train starts to leave a station and if trains are running with 90 second headways, then one would expect that your train should wait until the signal turns green for 5-15 seconds before starting to leave to maintain that 90 second headway. Similarly, if they are running 120 second headways (30 tph), one would expect that the signal would be green for 35 - 45 seconds. The train that leaves too early is as much a menace to maintaining a schedule as to one that leaves too late.
Clearly you have no direct knowledge of how far your train is from your leaders. Also, when you do have such direct knowledge it usually means that you are too close. The signal system is not designed to provide this information. Systems that do provide 40+ tph operation have another mechanism for maintaining proper train separation.
On the midnights I experience this all the time. Even with no passenger load and a fast C/R in some places I can do it perfectly and just get the yellow and in others the leader disappears in a sea of green and he is for sure more than 2 minutes away from me.
It sounds like you are trying to run up your leader's tail and are disappointed when you can't. :-)
>It sounds like you are trying to run up your leader's tail and are >disappointed when you can't. :-)
Actually it is intellectual curiousity. Even though I think 40 TPH is BS I tried it your way and it just does not work.
>If it takes 75-85 seconds for the signal to turn green after a train >starts to leave a station and if trains are running with 90 second >headways, then one would expect that your train should wait until >the signal turns green for 5-15 seconds before starting to leave to >maintain that 90 second headway.
To stop a train in station is supposed to take from 18-28 seconds or soemthing like that from the time you come in to the time you completely stop (not crawling in and no sharp breaking), you are supposed to open for at least 10 seconds.
You have blown a third to a half of your 90 second budget and you
still have to get to the next station from a dead stop.
>Clearly you have no direct knowledge of how far your train is from >your leaders. Also, when you do have such direct knowledge it >usually means that you are too close. The signal system is not >designed to provide this information.
Not formally but you know. At 207 yard or CC when there are no other trains, I truthfully have no idea of what 600 ft is. In straight tunnel with my leader ahead I do within 100 ft. You get a very good feel for how far apart the signals are from each other. KP74 may not be 100 ft from KP75 but KP 90 is likely between 1700 and 1500 feet away.
To stop a train in station is supposed to take from 18-28 seconds or soemthing like that from the time you come in to the time you completely stop (not crawling in and no sharp breaking), you are supposed to open for at least 10 seconds. You have blown a third to a half of your 90 second budget and you still have to get to the next station from a dead stop.
There is a signal that controls an entering train's access to the platform. This signal is usually located witin the station and has only yellow and red aspects. (sometimes this signal also has an st aspect). If one were to record the time from when a train starts to leave until the time that this signal permits platform access (st20 or yellow) one would find an average of 25-35 seconds.
Suppose a train leaves a station. In 25-35 seconds the following train can enter the station because the abovementioned platform signal is now yellow. Another 18-28 seconds elapses for the entering train to stop. A total of 43-63 seconds has now elapsed. The train should not leave until 90 seconds has elapsed. This allows a dwell time of 27-47 seconds. This is more than adequate for 90 second headways.
What will the signal be for this following train as it leaves the station? It will have been green for 5-15 seconds before the train starts.
The problem is that they do not run 40 tph - they don't even run 30 tph. This means that the signal at the front of the station has been green for an additional 30 seconds. It means that the following train has no reference as to when to start the train relative to its leader. The follower ususally spends too little time in the station and starts to catch his leader's tail. This causes a gap somewhere with the result that the scheduled dwell times are no longer adequate.
>There is a signal that controls an entering train's access to the >platform. This signal is usually located witin the station and has >only yellow and red aspects. (sometimes this signal also has an st >aspect). If one were to record the time from when a train starts to >leave until the time that this signal permits platform access (st20 >or yellow) one would find an average of 25-35 seconds.
First station time is a good way to lose your job. ST is not uniformly used and signal blocks are not uniformly spaced.
Second the slowest point is likely at terminals that end in a block. Especially since switches are slow speed. Interlockings also have much lower clearing times now. If the C beats you into as an A to Chambers getting into the station it is a two minute affair. Now matter how good the timetable the lines will unsynchronize and mess each other up.
Third
Fourth you are also making the same mistake of making a system wide analysis based on the fastest factors of the system not the slowest limiting factors. The 43-63 seconds is 53-73 because of the doors BUT that is assuming I can get there in that time. That was the whole point of my other post, I tried it on the midnights. I tok heavy breaks and all the other sppedy habits except going past yellows agressively ( I don't see you guys risking your job for me so I won't for you). When I am late and a line crosses me and what should have been my follower is my leader (at least until we diverge again) like the N and Q I have a valid reason to try it your way. I am trying to get back closer to my proper headway.
Fifth you forget about gap stations, they do hold you to time.
First station time is a good way to lose your job. ST is not uniformly used and signal blocks are not uniformly spaced.
We are talking about 3 different signals 1, 2, 3 in the order that they are passed. Signal 1 is in the tunnel just before the station entrance, with red, yellow, green aspects. Signal 2 is in the station with red, yellow and maybe ST aspects. Signal 3 is in the tunnel or at the station exit, with red, yellow and green aspects.
Why some ST's? Sometimes, it is not possible for an exiting train to leave with maximum acceleration due to goemetric considerations - curve or diverging switch. Signal 2's tripper cannot come down until S3's tripper can safely stop an incoming train at its maximum attainable speed (MAS). If the incoming train is going at 20 mph instead of 50 mph when it approaches S2, then its MAS when it reaches S3 and its stopping distance will be less. S2 does not change from red to ST aspects, until the S3 tripper will safely stop the train going at the MAS derived from the ST speed from S2. There is nothing unsafe about going approaching an ST and passing it at its rated speed. The ST aspect buys about 10-15 seconds over a yellow aspect for S2. This is important for 40 tph; it is not for 30 tph. Signal 1 shows a yellow or green aspect, when S3 shows an St or yellow aspect.
Second the slowest point is likely at terminals that end in a block.
The limiting factor for any line's service level capacity is its terminal facilities. The solution is to have multiple terminals at each end.
If the C beats you into as an A to Chambers getting into the station it is a two minute affair. Now matter how good the timetable the lines will unsynchronize and mess each other up.
A schedule is good only if every train follows it at every single station.
Fourth you are also making the same mistake of making a system wide analysis based on the fastest factors of the system not the slowest limiting factors.
Actually, I'm using average times at each station. The variability is between stations. I've also recorded variabililty within each station. My statements are not based on a best case scenerio.
Fifth you forget about gap stations, they do hold you to time.
If one wants to operate close to peak theoretical service levels, then a properly constructed schedule must be adhered to at every single station. Systems that operate at 40+ tph provide such corrections at every station. The operators can adjust their departure down to the second. The existence of gap stations is an admission that management is not making full use of their facilities.
>My measurements show that platform codnctors increase dwell time.
Vs. having them on the trains like in the old days?
Or Vs. not having them around at all. if that is what you mean I think we all would like to hear this in detail.
David, I cannot resist the temptation to throw in my plan at this juncture, too. I admit, I am plagiarizing you, Q Exp, R142 #2, and others. This could only work once the R143s arrive, as it has increased services, and assumes the current situation of northside MB and Bergen Tower out of commission. No capital projects needed. All tracks would have no more than 24 tph, except MB (27), QB exp (30), and Montague tunnel (27), this at morning rush hour:
A, B, C, D, L, S. as now.
E 12 tph southbound (with 3 of them continuing on to Euclid or Rockaway Park), 9 northbound. Jamaica Center, Queens Blvd. Exp., 53rd, 8th Av. local (9) to Canal, and express (3) via Cranberry tunnel to Euclid/RP via Fulton local.
F 9 tph southbound, 6 northbound. Hillside, Queens Blvd. Exp., 63rd, 6th Av. local, Rutgers tunnel, Culver (exp. Ditmas Av. to Kings Highway), Coney Island
V 9 tph both directions, Continental, Queens Blvd. Loc., 53rd, 8th Av. local, Rutgers tunnel, Culver Local, Kings Highway.
G 6 tph both directions Court Square to Smith/9th.
R 6 tph both directions, Continental, Queens Blvd. Loc., 60th, Broadway Local, Manh. Bridge, Brighton Local, Coney Island
Q 9 tph southbound, 12 tph northbound. Hillside (exp.), Queens Blvd. Exp., 63rd, Broadway Express, Manh. Bridge, Brighton Express, Brighton Beach.
Z 6 tph both directions. Jamaica Center, express Eastern Parkway to Essex via WB, Nassau St., Montague tunnel, Brighton local to CI
J 6 tph both directions. Jamaica Center, express Eastern Parkway to Essex via WB, Nassau St., Montague tunnel, 4th Av. local to 95th St.
K 6 tph both directions. Wash. Heights, CPW local, 6th Av. local, Chrystie, via WB, Broadway Brooklyn Local to Eastern Parkway.
M 6 tph both directions. Metropolitan Av, express Myrtle to Essex via WB, Nassau St., Montague tunnel, West End (exp. 4th Av.)
N 9 tph both directions. Astoria local via 60th, Broadway local, Montague tunnel, Sea Beach local (local on 4th Av. as it would be the only service from Brooklyn to Broadway tunnel stops)
W 6 tph southbound, 9 tph northbound. Astoria express, via 60th, Broadway express, Bridge, Dekalb Bypass, West End Express
R 6tph both directions? Queens Boulevard local service is plenty bad enough, thanks. Besides, adding 9 V trains would help much less then adding more R trains. Broadway is much more useful then 6th or 8th Avenues, and Lex/60th is a better transfer point then Lex/53rd--it's an express stop on the Lex and it has a much shorter walk. The Broadway platform is horrendously small, but that's just details. If anything, increase R service to 9 or 10 tph and leave the V at 6tph.
Also: Your plan underserves 53rd St. with only 21tph Southbound. IINM, the current 53rd St. service plan has 30tph, and each of those trains is packed. A very, very large number of these passengers debark at Lexington Ave. Your plan to cut service to both 53rd and 60th Sts. would cause ridiculous overcongestion. What we need is more 60th and 53rd St. service.
Dan
Dan, thanks for your comments. Regarding 53rd/Lex., I think that 53rd/Lex. is not going to have 30 tph as now, once the TA plan to send the F via 63rd begins. I assume that the E would have 15, I suppose the V will have 6 or 9, for 21 tph or 24 tph. As for QB local service to Manhattan, I would guess that it has somewhere from 9 to 12 tph now. What I called for in my plan would then be an increase, to 15, more than the current number, in any case.
Harry
Only problem with the V is that it would not be able to run with more than eight 60-foot cars, due to Eastern Division platform lengths. That could cause major overcrowding on the V while it is running on its Queens Blvd section. You can expect any train running from Queens Blvd to Manhattan to be overcrowded, so all trains headed to Manhattan need to be as long as possible (at least 600 feet long).
That's why I suggested the B instead of the V. The B can get away with eight 60-foot-car trains because the CPW IND line does not see the huge crowds that the Queens Blvd IND does thanks in part to the nearby West Side IRT line. The C can get the B's R68's and run with full-length 600-foot long trains and run from Bedford Park in the Bronx. I suppose the B could be merged with the J, but the J is a much longer route than the M in Brooklyn and Queens and the A, E and L (which all connect to the J) get to Manhattan faster than the J. That's why I suggested the M instead of the J.
And to minimize switching delays between 42nd and 34th Streets, I would run the V through the 63rd St tunnel and leave the F in the 53rd St tunnel (when the V is running). This way only the B has to switch tracks between 42nd and 34th Streets. The V would come into Rockerfeller Center on the express tracks and relay at 34th.
[That could cause major overcrowding on the V while it is running on its Queens Blvd section.]
QB locals currently don't really overcrowd.
[I would run the V through the 63rd St tunnel and leave the F in the 53rd St tunnel (when the V is running).]
When you do that, you most certainly can run 8 car trains.
Arti
If locals don't overcrowd, then the 63rd Street connector was undeniably a waste, since it doesn't increase express capacity an ounce.
My very limited experience is that the R is quite crowded pulling out of Queens Plaza. (The G is a different story, for obvious reasons.)
[If locals don't overcrowd, then the 63rd Street connector was undeniably a waste, since it doesn't increase express capacity an ounce. ]
That's why it is neccessary to divert an express, not local via 63rd Street, forcing people to use locals hopefully will ease exp overcrowding.
[My very limited experience is that the R is quite crowded pulling out of Queens Plaza. (The G is a different story, for obvious reasons.) ]
They are not as crowded as expresses. Few years old data showed that expresses were over 100% capacity when R was below.
Arti
My nearly unlimited experience is that the R approaches 85-90% capacity as it leavs Roosevelt and by Queens Plaza it's usually packed to the limit of comfort; i.e. there's enough room to read a book and if you let go of the pole you won't be held up by the solid mass of bodies surrounding you, as is the case on the expresses.
Dan
I would prefer the C instead of the B.
Run the C from 168 - 8th Ave.- Bway/Lafayette - Essex - Met Ave.
The V 71/Continental - 63rd or 53rd - 6th Ave. - Canal - WTC or Euclid
This would give people in the Lower East Side and Williamsburg one
seat ride to Penn stn, PABT and Central Park and people in
the Rockefeller Center a ride to the WTC.(assuming it will be rebuilt)
The C is already mostly run by 8-car trains, so people shouldn't
complain too much.
Oops, I see David already suggested a plan close to this one.
I haven't read the whole thread yet when I posted the first message.
1. running 2 completely different routes skip/stop defeats the purpose of skip/stop service.
2. the Z runs on 10 minute rush-hour headways. the proposed new route would need to be increased to at least 6 minutes. this would be excessive for Z service, and J service would be have to match it. result: empty trains galore on the eastern division.
3. it would be impractical to end any route at eastern parkway with the loss of the center platform at atlantic ave.
4. besides eliminating a transfer at essex st, why would the eastern division need this new route? are those riders exceptionally lazy that a x-fer at essex st. is too much to bear?
Didn't the MJ run on the Myrtle Avenue El? And wasn't the Myrtle Avenue El demolished in the early 70's? I guess to resurrect that line, that would be considered an "expensive connection".
Yep, it sure did. Incidentally, the MJ marking only appeared on maps and possibly station signs. The Q cars didn't have route signs and therefore never displayed this marking.
The only time I ever saw it on a sign was at Myrtle/Broadway, where it was on ONE sign, a white one, with a Raspberry bullet "MJ" and an arrow pointing to the transfer stairs. Never saw it on any train.
At the outset, BMT Standards that infested the "M" had only their side signs. AND the R-7a/R-9s went blank signs until the Eastern Division rolls were installed.
wayne
I never saw an R-7/9 train on the Eastern Division with a blank front end route sign, although I suppose they could have gotten away with it on the LL. OTOH blank destination signs were the norm, since they weren't used.
How about the N.Y.W.& B. railway ? i bet that would make plenty of people happy as the main highway is a narrow highway that follows the same route to Westchester County...i've never been there so i'm guessing,but i've herd people mention this. too bad the right of way is mostly gone.
They should have the "NX" train once again. There would be no quicker way to get to Manhattan from Coney Island or vice versa.
#3 West End Jeff
The only people it would serve are those in Coney Island, and there are not that many to warrent the expense
True, but since during the summer of 2003, only one train will serve Coney Island. Thus, at least the idea should be given consideration at least for that time period.
If there's only one train serving any corridor, there's no reasonable choice but to make it a local.
The B would be much quicker than any NX route. Fewer stops doesn't guarantee a faster run.
IF there is some way to bring back subway lines today that were taken away in the past I said we would all be greatly benifiting from it.
They were cancelled for a reason, for that same reason they remain gone.
Like the NX line, dashes people from Coney Island to Lower and Midtown Manhattan with in 30 minutes.
Why not just have races along those tracks with empty trains, it'll serve just as many people.
Turtle races would be more exciting.:-)
I agree. The NX is a useless route. I can get from Brighton Beach to 34th St in 35 minutes via the diamond Q. I bet thats MUCH faster than an NX route could possibly be.
Except the old Myrtle MJ route, all of those routes are redundant. Totally unecessary. As a railfan, I yearn for the opportunity to ride new, or old, routes. But that doesn't make these routes practical or worth the expenditure.
On Sunday afternoon I took a bunch of photos of the southern portion of the SNJLRT to document progress of the construction. The pix are online.
light rail Camden to East Riverton 11-04-01
Nice collection of photos, thanks for sharing Bob.
Mr t__:^)
The rest of the SNJLRTS photos that I took on Sunday have been uploaded, going north from East Riverton to Delran, including shots of the formerly ill-fated Rancocas Creek bridge now in its proper position (and presumably in use). Additionally, photos taken yesterday from Burlington to Bordentown complete the 36-thumbnail page. These include a shot of track in the middle of Broad Street Burlington with the old clock in the picture, and Crosswicks Creek bridge bereft of rails.
more interesting SJ light rail photos
There you are again with another OUTSTANDING photo at Florence at Delaware Ave. ... Thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks, Mr. T.
I just looked at them again and saw that I put the same photo in twice and mislabeled one of them. The application crashed a couple times when I was uploading them. (lame excuse)
Bob
I didn't notice.
Mr t__:^)
I removed one of the duplicates and put in an archive photo of the mock-up of a light rail car. It is the last thumbnail.
Very nice, would look marvelous in my back yard < G >
Mr t
In a Simple Memo, F.Y.I., a Tense Tale of Survival . . .
from Monday's NY Times' Tunnel Vision, a description of the journey of a TA Station Superintendent to the N/R Cortlandt Street station on 9/11.
Wow.
While riding the 4 uptown yesterday I observed that a wooden wall has been erected along the edge of the shuttle platform at Bowling Green, almost completely obscuring the view of the platform.
Anyone know what's going on?
Thanks to Joe Brennan, who advised me that asbestos abatement is taking place there. The project started before 9/11.
Thanks Joe.
Yes I've seen this too on the Saturday after the attacks. (9/15)
Something to do with Asbestos Abatement, which was my question earlier before.
Funnily enough, they had a white plate stating the construction info. and their contractor and whatnot, and it said:
"WE ARE REPLACING 8 ESCALATORS AT THIS STATION".
A fellow SubTalker told me, though, that none of the escalators at Bowling Green need to be replaced.
When we reached the lower level of the station to transfer to the UPTOWN side, I noticed on a sheet of 8" -11" paper it clealy stated that the T/A was going to remove the asbestos from the walls of this station.
This same sheet (copies) of the paper were also found on the I-beams of 34 St. Penn Station on the 8th Av. Subway.
Why are they removing the asbestos?
When did they start?
These two questions I haven't gotten an answer to either of them so I am awaiting.
Railfan Pete.
Would it be possible to replace the Newark Monorail with the JFK AirTrain Cars? It doesnt look like PATH will be extended to EWR anytime soon and the problems with the monorail are well noted. If the JFK Cars work better could they refit the Monorail to improve performance?
In a word: no.
They would have to rebuild the structure, replacing the monorail beam with a deck and lay tracks on the deck. It would be a major rebuild.
It doesnt look like PATH will be extended to EWR anytime soon
Why would PATH ever stretch to EWR? Its service is doing fine from NEWARK.
I've passed through NWK and EWR many times and it looks like PATH doesn't even have a chance to get there because there are many tracks in the way. Also, how can PATH install a new 3rd rail to get to that station anyways? Just more unnecessary traffic control wlll take place.
Also, I don't even know if the station was built for PATH.
the problems with the monorail are well noted.
What types of problems? The monorail cars are the same as that which are used within the 3 terminals, and the first time I rode it, I was impressed. I was in one of the monorail stations at the time. It would be very helpful if you let me know.
Also, if possible, where can you find the photos for the JFK AirTrain cars?
Thanks.
Railfan Pete.
pete---jfkairtrain.com
As for AirTrain I saw one car foing test run passed the station befor the a Train. It stop between station and open it's door. Can we say law suit if this happen in serivce. I know it was only a test.
Robert
The URL is now:
http://www.kennedyairport.com/airtrain/index.html
Wow. Those cars look great. Do they run it in 2-car pairs?
The Logo for the AIRTRAIN looks identical to the EWR one except different colors.
Wow. Those cars look great. Do they run it in 2-car pairs?
The Logo for the AIRTRAIN looks identical to the EWR one except different colors.
I understand your opinion, but why increase the budget?
The EWR's monorail cars are the same as that of the ones that formerly connected the 3 terminals and 2 parking lots before the Airport Station opened.
Also, I don't know if JFK cars are "compatible" with the rail on EWR.
And if the JFK cars have a JFK logo on them, why use more money to paint over them for NEWARK?
If JFK cars were to run in EWR, shipping costs would be great.
I think we should get used to the plan now.
Question: When Short turn G.O. service ends, isn't there usually a train or two added to fill the gap left by the next train(s) going long? Case in point:"L" Broadway Junction from Rock. Pky; after this one left B.J. at 6:55 P.M. Sat to Rock Pky and a Manh. Bound leaving at 7:00, the next Man. bound at B.J. was this former shuttle at 7:18 P.M. Why could there not have been one (or two) trains to Manhattan added at, say Atlantic, to shorten the ensuing longer turn around?
Is it true that this Sunday, November 11th, 2001AD, we will see the full time 63rd Street Tunnel service begin? Will there be other changes as well? Will the E, F, G, R and V service changes all go into effect begining this Sunday?
Now that the N and R service is restored, is it possible that they can switch the northern routes and terminals of the N and Q Local? They can run the N express to 57th Street-7th Avenue at all times. Trians will bypass DeKalb Avenue when express in Brooklyn. The Q Local can be rerouted via the Montague Street Tunnel, and run local all the way to Astoria. This can simplify the confusion of the Q Local and Q Express at 57th Street-7th Avenue.
Absolutely not. The service change was pushed off to December 5. (Don't you think you'd have seen at least some sort of prior notice in the trains before the change?)
The two Q's are currently identical north of Prospect Park. Whatever confusion exists (and I don't think it's much) would only get worse if they differed in Manhattan (and Queens!) as well. Especially now that it's been cut back to 86th Street, N ridership in Brooklyn is much lower than circle-Q ridership, and I don't think many Brighton riders are interested in lower Manhattan service.
>Whatever confusion exists (and I don't think it's much) would only get worse if they differed in Manhattan (and Queens!) as well.
I am thinking that people must have gotten used to differing circle/diamond Q service in Manhattan and Queens since its already been done in the past two months.
The idea of sending N via Broadway exp. and bridge and circle Q via tunnel has been gone over before. Doing that would cause massive overcrowding on the diamond Q express.
Running the circle-Q throught the Montague tunnel and local to Astoria while keeping the diamond-Q as it is, would only add more confusion. Better to leave both Q services identical from Prospect Park to 57th & 7th, because both are, well, Q trains.
Change the Q diamond to say a K would eliminate some confusion
I have a few ideas for the E line BVE route I'm making. I'll tell you what they are and I want to know what you think of them.
5th Avenue
The "gallery" on the south wall of the 5th Avenue station would have graphics honoring the rescue workers and pictures of the Twin Towers and 7 WTC. (Pre-attacks, of course.)
World Trade Center station
A mural wall placed at about 891+15 (the entrance to WTC concourse is at 891+10, the buffers are at 892+00). I think it should either go there or at around 891+75, which is just north of the turnstile barrier.
Just so you know, the numbers I'm giving you were collected before 9/11/01, as I was researching the station. I made my own turnstile objects.
For these two stations, I would need to know the location of good pictures that I can use for this purpose.
23-Ely, 14th St, and West 4 St
I need assistance making the staircases/ramps at the end of the station. I'm using 4-meter ceilings.
Lexington Avenue
I need assistance making the escalators at the south end of the station. I'll give you the (x,y) coordinates for the central arch of the station.
All measurements are in meters and rounded to 4 decimal places. This set of (x,y) coordinates roughly follows the equation y=(sqr(2.8ē-(x+6)ē)/4.5)+3.375
(-8.8,3.3750)
(-8.0,3.8105)
(-7.2,3.9372)
(-6.4,3.9908)
(-6.0,4.0000)
(-5.6,3.9908)
(-4.8,3.9372)
(-4.0,3.8105)
(-3.2,3.3750)
Thanks in advance!
You're missing a parenthesis somewhere.
Actually, I'm not.
y = (sqr(2.8ē - (x + 6)ē) / 4.5) + 3.375
I read which amazement this evening Nov 6 at 17:00 GMT on the front page of The Manchester Evening News (MEN)newspaper that the Greater Manchester tram network operator Altram is to purchase surplus 15 year old Boeing/Verton (sp?) trams from San Francisco to ease a chronic capacity passenger overcrowding problems on rush hour services. Trams were reintroduced to manchester in 1991 after a 43 year absence and had proved to be extremely popular if not too popular.
The MEN's page picture actually showed a picture of a Bay Authority metro train but this would certainly be outside the narrow U.K. loading gauge! These trams which are apparently being sold at scrap prices, will be tranfered by road to L.A., then by ship via the Panama Canal to the U.K. at a cost of approx $22,000 per tram (i assume per vehicle). The article also noted that Manchester actually pioneered the use of trams (horse-drawn) in 1877 and the nearby seaside resort of Blackpool which is also in Lancashire pioneered the use of electric trams in 1888.
I wonder why San Francisco is getting rid of these relatively youthful trams and also whether this would be the first use of USA built trams in Europe? Comment/answers would be welcomed.
It's kind of an od twist that San Francisco, the home of the rolling transit museum in the form of its historic trolleys on Market street, is sending its own "old" equipment somewhere else, I think.
Mark
After you experience the problem-plagued Boeing/Vertol LRVs, you'll know why San fran was so eager to get rid of them :)
--Mark
The MEN's page picture actually showed a picture of a Bay Authority metro train but this would certainly be outside the narrow
U.K. loading gauge!
Yes, the SF bay area BART system is a wide gauge but the SF trams and the Manchester trams are both "international" standard gauge.
the first use of USA built trams in Europe?
Recently yes since I don't think we have any domestic production of tram cars right now. But not the first by any means. New York sent a lot of its old tram cars to Vienna after WWII and several cities in Europe used cars very similar to our PCC cars, but I wouldn't know offhand where they were built or did they just use the same design and technology patents.
And as for why SF is getting rid of them (and Boston is as well)? They apparently suck. :-)
-Dave
Dave Pirmann says....."They apparently suck. :->"
Now THAT is giving them a compliment.....
That is the LEAST that Muni says about them. Actually, they are down to about 20 of them still in service....most of the rest have been scrapped already. Probably one of the shortest-lived models of railcars in the USA.....
On a trip to San Francisco a year ago, most the system (excepting of course, the historic cars used on the F route) was operated by the Boeing LRVs, some of which came from Boston. The Breda LRVs, at that time, were far fewer in numbers. they are also a far heavier and noisier car. Surprisingly, the Boeing LRVs, while a bit shabby in appearance, were, at that time, extremely reliable and fast. I had stayed at a motel near the Pacific Ocean, and used these cars daily for five days to commute to downtown San Francisco. There was not one breakdown or problem. I was told by SFMR personnel that Muni had been taking fairly good care of these cars, at least mechanically and electrically, for the past few years, and the most problems were long gone. Thus, Manchester may actually be purchasing units that operate fairly well.
A little more to the east, Salt Lake City, anticipating a trolley shortage for the Olympics next year, is borrowing cars from Dallas, which doesn't need all it has on the property at this time (purchased for extensions not yet completed). It is believed some of these cars may be in operation at this time. And some of the soon-to-be surplus San Jose cars have found their way to Sacramento and it is rumored a few might also go to Salt Lake City (which is also borrowing a number of buses from San Francisco, among other cities, for the Olympics). Perhaps, then, it is not too far-fetched to think that a few of San Francisco's Boeing LRVs might also spend some time in Salt Lake City.....
.....after which perhaps a few can join San Franciscos historic fleet!
We could use some extra cars here in Denver.:-) RTD can't order equipment fast enough to keep up with demand. Currently, six LRVs are slated to be delivered in time for the opening of the Central Platte Valley Spur, and 12 more are on order for the highly successful Southwest Corridor.
The Boeing LRVs have been plauged by various problems since they hit the rails on the N Judah in 1980. Boeing got out of the streetcar making business after Boston decided they were lemons. MBTA sold Muni several of its lemons in the early 1980s.
The MUNI fleet will eventually be all Breda LRVs. The Boeings still ply their way along the L and M lines. Several Boeings sit in various stages of canibalization at the extra yard along San Jose Avenue and some have been laid up before scrapping at the end of the King Street right of way underneath Interstate 280.
My big complaint about the Boeings was they lacked air conditioning or even good fresh air ventilation. MUNI installed sliding top third windows on the LRVs in the late 1980s. THis came after they insisted the cars had sufficient ventilation. The Bredas carry air conditioning.
Back in 1977, MUNI sold a number of its retired 1950's vintage trolley buses to Mexico City. I understand some of them might still be running.
George Devine
San Francisco
The lack of air conditioning will not be a problem in Manchester, just so long as they are water tight!
Lack of Air CXon in SF is not unusual. Very rarely it is needed
Yeah, that's why all their new equipment is now getting it...the Breda LRV's, their new NABI and Neoplan buses.
It may not be needed much, but when it IS needed, it is NEEDED!! A couple years ago, my wife and I were up there for four hot, steamy, uncomfortable, nasty 98-degree days. We made the mistake of needing to use the J-CHURCH line, which of course, at the time, was all Boeing LRV.
Ever get into an LRV that was sitting in the yard all day, and then do a top speed of about 20 miles an hour into downtown??? I must have sweated off 15 pounds on that trip.
We actually rode BART over to Concord and back just to sit in some air conditioning.
Natural air conditioning in SF...that's what the natives all claim. Yeah, right, they're all standing on street corners blowing each other.
Suggestion: Bring your umbrella if it looks like rainif you intend to ride one of the ex-SF Muni cars.....you won't be sorry.
Across the street from the Geneva Yard is chock full of the old Boeing LRV's. My MUNI connection told me a few months ago that they had to pay a company from LA to come scrap them. The project was behind schedule which gave me a chance to "raid" the yard on a rainy day to extract two side signs from two different cars :)
He also said that many circles were not pleased with the Bredas as well...(they don't just suck in Boston :) ).
So how much will you be offering the Boeing rollsigns for on E-Bay?
A lot of 3rd Ave cars built just before WWII went to Vienna. The Hague Netherlands had as recently as 1992 US Made PCC cars
The Hague Netherlands had as recently as 1992 US Made PCC cars
Nope.
HTM had two St. Louis built cars, 1001 & 1002. The balance of the Hague's PCC's were built by La Brugeoise et Nivelles in several batches over 20 years. National Capital Trolley Musuem has HTM 1329, a 1971 product.
When i was there in 88 there were a number of American Built PCCs
Bob, they were not American made. Other than the two St. Louis built cars, 1001 & 1002,(which were shipped in knocked down condition and finished in Belgium.) all other Hague PCC's were built by La Brugeoise et Nivelles. La Brugeoise was a licensed builder of PCC cars after 1948. HTM used the same design as 1001 & 1002 for all their cars, thus the "American" appearance.
They might look it, but they're not.
Go up to National Capital and look at HTM 1329 next to TTC 4603 and you'll see the "family resemblance"
I swore they looked exactly like US PCC except they had pantographs rather then poles
Shore Line's 629 was one of them. It was sent to Vienna as part of the Marshall Aid Plan to help rebuild western Europe. They used military transport boats, transporting goods and materials to Europe in one direction and bringing refugees admitted to the US under the auspicies of the Displaced Persons Act on their return trip. My folks came to the US thanks to the DP Act.
629 (my favorite car at Branford) became number 4239 in Vienna. 631 (Vienna 4216) is at Seashore, also from the same batch of cars... 678 (Vienna ????) is at National Capital in Maryland... 637 (Graz number unknown to me) has been restored to TARS livery in Graz, Austria... Vienna 4208 (TARS number unknown to me) is preserved in Vienna.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's also a TARS Vienna car at the National Tramway Museum in England. It's in TARS livery wearing # 674.
San Francisco is getting rid of them because they were genuine pieces of shit.
Lotsa luck, Manchester!!!!!!
Indeed. Yes, let's be brutally honest about the Boeing Vertol LRVs: Those cars were the reputation stain of the light rail transportation movement in the late 1970s/early 1980s.
-Robert King
You could almost say the Boeing Vertol LRVs are the R-16s of light rail transit.
Can you fill me in on the R16s?
-Robert King
Overwight maintenance headaches with zero tolerance for snow, for both the door motors, and the GE cars in general.
One word: lemons.
Maybe they should send them to Denver instead
Better still, maybe they could be used to form a barrier reef someplace!
Joe V in his previous response has correctly stated the R16s problems. These were our 1954-model B Division (then BMT) subway cars, built by ACF. There were 200 of these beasts. These were among the most sluggish subway cars that I have ever ridden on, and that includes today's slowpoke kings, the R68/R68A. Oddly enough, six of these cars survive to this day (not in revenue service, of course), I believe at least three are operational.
wayne
They were also the last single unit 60-footers built for the NYC subway system.
The did all right downhill on the Jamaica-Broadway Express in the 60's. You could forecast a snowstorm coming when the Standards showed up instead, and the R16's went to the 14th Street line. Unfortunate;y, the Standrads were never 7 or 8 cars when that happened.
Its funny that the R17s were such good cars
The Carter adminstration encouraged the aerospace industry to try their hands in providing their knowledge in mass transit. The results... you guess it, all left the transit market and back to aerospace.
Phil Hom
Thanks for the cars guys !
Simon
Swindon UK
From what I've been reading this morning "Thank's" may not be an appropriate response. Having said that, as a regular tram user in M/cr I don't care! Bring them on over.
Hehehehe, have fun trying to keep 'em running!!!!
Will MUNI be paying you to take those things of their hands?
Seriously, those Boeings really are horrible cars.
-Robert King
Hmm, maybe the Newark PCC cars are really heading west after all.
wayne
Nope, all of them are staying right in New Jersey.
Shoreline just worked out a trade with Minnesota Transportation Museum
of ex-Minneapolis,ex-Newark/RTA PCC 27 (ex TCRT 416) for car parts. Shoreline will restore it as PSCT 27 since they couldn't get one from NJT.
Nope, San Francisco doesn't even want the Newark PCC's.
They actually found four of their own old ones....1027,1028,1029, and 1035 near Lake Tahoe....and have worked out a deal with those cars owners to buy them back, and in the next couple years they will be rebuilt to run with the rest of the PCC fleet!!!
"They actually found four of their own old ones....1027,1028,1029, and 1035 near Lake Tahoe....and have worked out a deal with those cars owners to buy them back, and in the next couple years they will be rebuilt to run with the rest of the PCC fleet!!!"
I'm glad to hear those cars are headed back to San Francisco. Do you know anything about this group near Lake Tahoe? Andrew Young's 1996 book "Veteran & Vintage Transit" listed a group known as Tahoe Airport Generic Rail that owned quite a few cars - mostly SF PCC's, but also some historic cars. I have never heard of this group since. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
There's a snippit of info on
There's a snippit of info on a German site (fortunately with some pretty good English translation) but not much. This page indicates the numbers as 1026, 1027, 1028, and 1034.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is the craziest idea you're ever gonna hear but hear me out, I KNOW IT WONT HAPPEN but this would bring around so many jobs it could really help out, and in the end the city will move around so much faster then it is today.
1. Building the Second Avenue Line This would allow for a serve decrease in crowding on the bus lines and Subway Lines on the East Side of Manhttan.
2. Takeing the B.Q.E. and making it open cut highway Normally when it is in brooklyn its along an elevated route and in an industrial area to boot. So I say rebuild it as a ground level express way with 8 lanes, and put trees and other things to make the surrounding areas nicer, and rebuild other sections in the Queens Park of the B.Q.E. in the same mannor. This will build up land value and attract people to that area of brooklyn for commerical devlopment.
3. Build the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway This highway if built will take congestion off the Southern State, Grand Central and the Belt Parkway, people will now have more direct access from Long Island to Downtown Manhttan by haveing the Cross Brooklyn Expressway go directly into the Battery Tunnel. Save Time, Save Money on Gas,
4. Build the F.D.R. and Henry Hudson Highways Underground by doing this we can create a 10 lane highway for both highways. So that traffic moves quickly, the sections can be converted to beautiful parks on both sides of manhattan attacting Commecial Markets, also a light rail can be put in the parks to whisk people from the tops of Manhattan to Lower Manhattan as a scenic alternative to the subway. The parks will attrack visitors as well. Better off and on ramps will be get people on and off the highways faster. Also Carbon Monoxide levels will drop dramatically.
5. Build New Manhattan and Willamsburg Bridges These bridges have cost the city alot in repair constantly because of the way the were designed. It is time to replace these bridges with new strong, attractive deisgns. Like Box Girder or Cable Stayed Bridge types. The bridges will be strong enough to hold rush hour traffic and trains at the same time with out damaging or causing it to bend or drop.
This thing would cost well over 100 Billion dollars to build, but the after effects would be great. A nicer looking, faster city.
So what do you think (please dont say it is impossible or you're crazy) because I know it would never happen for many reason. Just give opinions on the benifits and stuff.
IMHO, we will see at least one of the bridges into Manhattan torn down and replaced within the next 20 years. The manhattan anbd Williamsburg are both at the point where they will simply have to be replaced, or very heavilly overhauled. IMHO, the manhattan should have been torn down and replaced years ago. Putting the rail lines on the outside of the bridge was the biggest erngineering boner in NYC history.
As far as dropping the highways into an open cut - I wouldn't be so fast to do it - look at the Big Waste Dig in Boston, and what that's done. I think some push for highway beautification, though, would help.
Building the 2nd ave line has to be done. It's that simple.
I think a new Penn Station / MSG complex on the existing site, with a new streamlined yard, and better passenger facilities, is more important that the Farley Post Office boondogle being pushed by (sl)Amtrak and Pataki. I'd want to see commuter-optimized tracks, a clean up and redo of the track level, featuring higher clearences there, and a better ceiling, a single level passenger space above for all 3 (2) operations, a high ceiling through there, then a new MSG on top of that. This isn't beyond the realm of engineering. I'd raise the station's ceiling to slightly above street level, and go for a somewhat retro-50's look - clean simple, and beautiful. I despise Airport Modern, and the Mall Look. Hell, I'd love to see an Art Decco, or Googie style Penn. The latter would really be weird, though :)
How about this:
Tear the Manny B down (since the Williamsburg has been somewhat rebuilt in recent years) and replace it with a cars-only bridge. I believe that it is feasible for a tunnel to be built from the old Myrtle Ave to the 2nd Ave station (Stub is allready there) or Grand St by creating the side platforms that were to be created at this station (this way, the center tracks could be used for the new 2nd Ave Line).
I agree with not building the underground highway. The Big Dig has been going on forever... and the end seems nowhere in site.
I am not anti-highway. One thought I've long cherished is a rebuild of the BQE and LIE adding three or so additional *eastbound* lanes (perhaps tolled), to include a new *one-way* East River crossing at Houston St., going east. Getting cars more quickly out of Manhattan is one solution to the mess.
And you have a reason to cheaply build four tracks of subway on such a Houston crossing, probably going into the box left for the never-built second IND at S. 4th St.
To get new subway lines built, you have to get in bed with the highway people.
What's going on at East 180th Street on the 2 and 5? First, they were painting everything, EVERYTHING orange. The place looked like a kiddy playhouse at McDonalds. Now, they've REPAINTED everthing green. Was the orange just some kind of base paint or something? Or, did someone just change their mind. The TA definately needs a good interior decorater. :)
Its fall. The station should turn from green to orange, not the other way around. :)
Mark
Also on the same line (of discussion, not the same subway line), I noticed last week that the southbound platform walls at 86th Street on the N had been painted white (including the formerly green columns). The northbound platform was still the traditional beige and green.
Sometime ago here in Philadelphia they repainted the concrete surfaces at the Erie station on the Broad Street subway. All the tile had been masked so that paint wouldn't get on it, but they forgot about the tracks, and the spraypaint left them looking as if a light early winter snow had dusted the tracks like so much confectioners sugar.
Mark
If you scrape away the paint on a lot of the TA elevated structures, you will see an orange base coat or primer. It's an anti-rust paint. Something very needed in NY's humid climate.
We had a similar situation here too at Metuchen several months ago. They repainted the station house with red orange and sandy beige color paint.
The house used to have a dark shade of turquoise and a beige color. When I first saw it, it felt weird with the change, but after awhile you get used to it.
Ironically as I come to think of it, the establishment date of this station is 1888! Did the PRR operate railroad cars in this area for that long? (It was renovated in the 1970's)
It's not like everything gets painted bi-annually, but I don't know about the MTA. They don't repaint the Flushing elevated line.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I have used MetroPark since 1994. At that time it was a solid turqoise color then it was two tone beige upper with dark green upper. The green has since been replaced with dark red.
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
God, that thing's ugly!!!!
So much for Sunberg - Ferrar's 1960's vintage design lasting another few generations :(
Why the hell does Bombarder make such crappy equipment, anyway?
Why the hell does Bombarder make such crappy equipment, anyway?
Just wait till it hits daylight. I'm sure things would lighten up a bit at least.
Bombardier does NOT make crappy material. It is actually a major company focusing on five major aspects to contribute to affecting the economy it serves.
It not only manufactures trains, it also manufactures aircraft and recreational items, and takes part in an international program called Bombardier International.
Bombardier's contributions to rail cars in the NE area include the 20 Acela Express car sets, (2 power cars on each end and 6 coaches), NJ TRANSIT's Comet IV push-pull cars, and this, the M-7 for the LIRR.
Bombardier also creates railcars for transit systems around the world. FYI: visit Bombardier's website.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Only the recent Plattsburgh products are crap! Al la R-142.
KAWASAKI R-142A FOREVER!
Trevor Logan
Bombardier's contributions to rail cars in the NE area include the 20 Acela Express car sets, (2 power cars on each end and 6 coaches), NJ TRANSIT's Comet IV push-pull cars, and this, the M-7 for the LIRR.
Add the Comet II, III, and V cars.
Bombardier is actually a Canadian co. with its headquarters in Montreal, QC (I think it is).
It is a French speaking region, so the Bombardier website has options for English and French.
Hmmm. Not that different from the M1s and M3s. However it seems as if the blue stripe motiff is gone for good.
:-( Andrew
Well a few orange reflective safety strips should brighten her up.
Cool, different, I like when things change in design, it says we still got an imagination. So keep it up
Why couldn't they just pull out the existing design without going through the expense of this ? The last were built as M-6's in the early or mid-1990's for the NH.
actually i think those M7s are gonna be hot! Can't wait till they pass my home station which is rosedale. They look like R142s sort of. And i think the Commuters will like it. Some commuters complain that LIRR sends all the Diesel equipment to the good lines, and they never see anything new besides the M1s and M3s. So when they see these new electrics whenever they hit the road, i think they will like it. passengers do not care what a train looks like ugly or good looking. as long as it takes them where it goes, they will be fine. If a Work train stopped, and opened up, they would board it. lol
Since they cars will be so heavy, rivalling MP54's, the LIRR is already planning to stretch their schedules.
I wish they'd bring back those MP-54's. That there was an MU!
The first time I rode in an MP-54 trailer (P-54?) on the Paoli Local, I was pleased with how quiet it was, making reading very pleasant. After a few miles I missed the sound and vibration of the motors. I never rode a trailer again.
The Pennsy ones grinded and vibrated much louder and hotter than the LIRR ones. But they all ran 40-50 years, some without ever getting an overhaul.
Is that the R142 for the LIRR? I hope the MTA gets off this black front scheme.
R142? This is LIRR my friend. They use only M -car types here. R-class types are for the NYCT.
I don't mind the black front schemes. Although one more set would push for a change.
By the way, what car types are currently in service on the LIRR?
: )
Railfan Pete.
He was making reference to the R-142
Current models running on the L.I.R.R. are the M-1,M-3, and if I'm not mistakened M-4 or M-2. I am not a constant rider or constant watcher of the L.I.R.R.
Just M-1 and 3. M2,4,6 is the dual-voltage orange fleet of Metro North.
Black fronts on a grade-crossing intense LIRR is extremely stupid. After their first crossing accident, some savage, ambulance-chasing lawyer will have a field day with that one and win, while hapless LIRR management will act like victims as they always do.
I was asking if the front was LIRR's version of the R142. I know LIRR doesn't use the R142, but the front of that thing looks very similar (and just as ugly).
As Philip has duly noted, it is decidedly UGLY, but it is in keeping with the current motif - this is to the R143 as the M-1/M-3 is to the R40M, R42, R44 and R46. It does look more like the R143 than it does the R142 due to the positioning of the headlights and the roofline. It would look better if they could get rid of those little pantograph gates.
wayne
I would rather see the Sundberg-Ferrar design from the late 60's on the M7 rather than this. This reminds me of the Shoreliner II design up front in a way.
Single leaf doors on the M-7, am I right?
--Mark
"Single leaf doors on the M-7, am I right?
That's right Mark.
I don't think this design is ugly. You want to see ugly, try the GO Transit bi-level commuter cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
The GO cars just have a poor paint scheeme.
Whats with these new single leaf door plans
Another GREAT idea by the LIRR. Cutsdown on door motors maintenance.
Now when a motor goes, the entire vestibule is useless. They're not old enough to remeber the Lo-V's.
very smart
:)
Since I relocated to South Florida shortly before the Sept. 11th terror attacks please help me with these service changes.
#l Line- I understand that the #1 line operates to New Lots Avenue at all times. Where does the # 4 line now terminate during late night hours. (The 4 would operate to New Lots Ave when the 3 did not operate)
#3 Line- does the 3 train use both express tracks at 14th Street?
E Line- With the last stop now being Canal Street how does the E turn around. Does it go into the middle track at Chambers Street or does the E opearte light into the closed World Trade Center Station.
Thank You
OK here is the current service plans
1 - 242 Street To New Lots Avenue: All times EXCEPT Nights where 1 trains operate to Chambers Street
2 - 241 Street to Flatbush Avenue (Local): All Times
3 - 148 Street to 14 Street
4 - Woodlawn to Utica Avenue (All Times) At Night 4 train runs to New Lots Avenue
E - Jamaica Center to Canal Street (trains turn back using the cross over at World Trade Center
There you go
Thank You for the update
well as for the 4 i cannot comment, but i see no reason why they cannot continue operating to New lots. anyways get this! 2 trains are now making all stops on 7av! 9 trains are suspended. N and R has been restored recently, however they bypass cortlandt street at all times both directions. I have Motorman friends on the E and the E is my home line. The E sign used to say E world trade CTR. now the R46s say only E 8 AVENUE. The R32s have returned to the E. they were all over the Q local so the E was almost 100% R46 for a good 4-5 weeks, because of R train suspension. The E train does continue into the WTC station which is closed. the Motormen and Conductor still do the usual crew changes, but no passengers. they even allow E's to sit at Canal for Train emptying purposes. Also A and C have been stopping at Chambers once again. J and M W and Q have been restored. that was the worst because Z was suspended, Q locals came to Queens with R68s too! Also the J had to go all the way to 95th! all the Motormen hated that! except ones who had one trip! My friend operates the R, but for his supplement job, he only had a Q trip halfway! A division IRT lines remained normal with the exception of the 1,2,3. The one line that remained unaffected was the 7. As a matter of fact i think when the towers were done collapsing. the 7 immediately began again.
E,1,2,3 are most likely to remain the way they are for a GOOD while! i dunno when all will return. anyways i miss the 9 tho :(. at least the Z is back
Hey you wanna here interesting things, the WTC station is nearly in perfect shape so see it open as early as March, April or May. Amazing speeds.
I don't see why the WTC E station is still closed. Despite the name, it's a good distance from the site of the towers. From the A/C platform, it looks fine. Obviously the south exit would be closed off, but the north exit and transfer could be reopened now, from what I can tell.
The 9 isn't suspended; it's simply subsumed into the 1. Going by the numbers of passengers served, it appears that the 9 hurt more than it helped. It shouldn't return.
IINM, the first line to be restored was the A (operating local, of course, and via the Rutgers tube). But the 7 started up pretty quickly, too, and I may have the order wrong.
The B, D, F, G, L, 7, and shuttles were all unaffected (at least directly) by the attack once service resumed.
The Q's in Queens had nothing to do with the Z's suspension (or, rather, subsumption). They ran to Queens to take the place of the R, which was suspended.
I don't see why the WTC E station is still closed. Despite the name, it's a good distance from the site of the towers. From the A/C platform, it looks fine. Obviously the south exit would be closed off, but the north exit and transfer could be reopened now, from what I can tell.
Transfer to where? The only transfers that could take place at the WTC station on the E is through the Concourse basement under the twin towers to the 1,2,3,9,N,R,A and C lines. (May give you a clue)
The E line has a station of its own. If little damage at all, was done to the station, the MTA will still close it for safety reasons and will not allow its passengers to cross "the realm" of the debris.
The 9 isn't suspended; it's simply subsumed into the 1. Going by the numbers of passengers served, it appears that the 9 hurt more than it helped. It shouldn't return.
The basic purpose of the #9 train is to provide faster and additional service on the 7th Av. line in mid-upper Manhattan. For this service, the MTA must distinguish the skip-stop service train as a separate # for service. I've, in the history of my riding NYCT, seen only one 9 train s/b when it was slowing down at 50 St. (I was on a #2 UPTOWN at the time) The #9 train uses R62A equipment.
Railfan Pete.
Wrong on all counts.
The E WTC station is connected directly to the A/C Chambers Street station, which in turn is connected to the 1/2 Park Place station. This is all a few blocks north of the WTC; all transfer stairways and corridors are still in place.
The 9 does (did) not provide additional service. North of 137th Street, half of the trains served one set of stations and half of the trains served another set of stations, and they were called 1 and 9 so the two varieties could be identified. The entire skip-stop procedure saved a whopping two minutes or so from top to bottom, but anyone boarding at an intermediate station skip-stop station had an increase in waiting time of well over two minutes. It was a nice experiment but it clearly failed. Note that there's nothing stopping the TA from reviving the 9 today, but instead the 9 bullets have been disappearing from the stations. Folks, I think the 9 is gone for good.
That is not true. In some aspects, the "9" did provide additional service to "SOME" stations, mainly stations served by both "1" and "9" trains (i.e. 168 St, 181 St, 191 St, 231 St and 242 St). Before the advent of the "9" service, during weekdays from 6am until approx. 7pm, every other "1" train terminated at 137 St-Broadway, thus during rush hours, while south of 137 St experienced headways of 4 to 6 minutes during rush hours, anything north of 137 St experienced headways of 8 to 12 minutes which was unacceptable. God forbid if a train broke down, especially if it was a 242 St train.
However I do agree with you about the skip-stop service. They need to just end that. Either run one of those trains non-stop from 96 Street until 145 Street (am rush downtown, pm rush uptown, if possible) or just make all "1" trains make all stops to 242 Street.
I hold by my position that the 9 was nothing but a rebranded 1. At the beginning of rush hour, when skip-stop began, did headways at all-stop stations suddenly drop in half? At the end of rush hour, when skip-stop ended, did headways at all-stop stations suddenly double? No. The extra rush hour service was just that: extra rush hour service. (Nearly) all lines get that.
Yes, historically, alternate rush hour 1's dropped out at 137th. I'm comparing skip-stop service to the arrangement today when skip-stop doesn't operate (like now).
If the 2 is ever restored as an express, 1 service north of 137th should remain as it is (perhaps running express between 96th and 137th) but there should be supplemental local service south of 137th. I don't have all the numbers, but I have a strong feeling that my local 1/2 station (before the 2 started serving it) ranked very high (top ten?) in passengers served per train, rush hours and possibly weekends as well.
Amen, I live by an intermidiate stop, 238 and the 9 drove me nuts, not so much in the AM (when you're not in a real hurry to get TO work) but in the evening. I would rush to the train only to find it was a nine and had to wait for the next 1. Even worse, just miss a 1 and I'd have to wait for the next 9 and then again for a one.
Take whatever comes and go to VC then leave on the next southbound - probably faster.
WTC tracks no longer end at the block. You can't fully berth a train in the station anymore.
The Plaza which is where most people came to or from is closed. It stinks even after repeated cleanings and yes somehow much worse than Chambers St.
Well, that explains that.
Is something (debris?) blocking the tracks? If nothing else, reopening the platform would allow E trains to expeditiously get out of the way of C trains at Canal. Besides, I'm sure a few passengers would exit at the rear or transfer to the 1/2.
Nothing is blocking the tracks. For some reason, they've pushed back the area to stop at and have installed temporary banker lights and a trip.
FYI, the entrance to the WTC concourse has been replaced with a solid steel barrier. There's still plenty of dust on the floor and it smells like burnt rubber.
I would guess that they will hold off on a plan for the WTC IND station until they know what is going to happen to the NE corner of the WTC site. It probably isn't worth the trouble to get the station in proper order for passengers just to connect to the Park Place IRT station. All passengers would have to be funneled to the north end transfer stairs. I cannot see them opening the south end fare control area to the stairs on the east side of Church Street.
Once there is some plan for the WTC site, they can come up with a plan for the south end of the WTC IND station and the west side of the Cortlandt Street BMT station. Perhaps a transfer??? The plan would have to be adaptable to whatever is done for the site as a whole.
Does anyone have any idea what percentage of the traffic at the various WTC stations (Chambers/WTC IND; Cortlandt Street BMT; Cortlandt Street IRT; and PATH) went to the Trade Center complex? That might give an idea what kind of volume they would need to serve without WTC.
I saw an equal amount of R-32 and R-46 consists on the E, and on the R-32s the lower side destination signs were set to Canal St. Manhattan. Didn't see what the R-46s said.
it said E 8 AVENUE
by the way, a Subtalker said he moved to florida and wanted to know if the 4 still goes to New lots. I did see a 4 stopping at borough hall, coming from New lots headed for woodlawn. Anyways its good to see that most subway lines have returned to normal.
until we meet again
step in, stand clear
That 4 was most likely coming from Utica, not New Lots, unless it was at night. The 4 is running exactly as it did before September 11.
10-4. Thanks.
The 1 terminates at Chambers Street at night.
The 3 turns on the northbound express track at 14th Street. This causes no end of confusion on both platforms (passengers trying to go south board northbound trains while passengers trying to go north wait by an unused track).
The E operates as always, turning at WTC, but passengers are chased off at Canal. The WTC platform is closed to the public.
Maybe the E cut back to Canal with a forced transfer to go further south is encouraging Jamaica - lower Manhattan riders to use the J/Z.
It doesn't take any longer, is less crowded, and probably has far better OTP.
The 3 uses only the downtown track at 14th Street.
I just got off to see the MTA website and I found within the set of links one link marked "Surplus Material Sales".
It's about how MTA, the largest urban mass transit system in the nation, has a large inventory of surplus and used material and equipment for sale.
Visit the website: Surplus Material Sales.
Would this be one of MTA's milestones? or is it just a normal thing MTA does every year or something?
It does it every year, nothing special, makes additional money
In a previous job, when I was working Off-B'way, a show I was working on took place on a bus. Everyone was quite surprised when I showed up with 5 two-seater bus seats, some aluminium poles, and the black rubber matting from the floor.
Wow, are you a T/A bus driver? If so, do you like BusTalk better or SubTalk?
I just got off to see the MTA website and I found within the set of links one link marked "Surplus Material Sales".
Would this be one of MTA's milestones? or is it just a normal thing MTA does every year or something?
I recall seeing an announcement of surplus material sales on the MTA site three or four years ago. The MTA's probably been making these sales for years.
It's common, even in industry. Pratt and Whitney has a surplus store where you can get old and surplus stuff, (not engines ;) sometimes you get a bargain, sometimes it's a rip. They do stuff like buy enough cable to network an area, then have some leftover boxes so they sell it. Or, they buy too much then sell the leftovers. Get a quantity discount and hopefully make some $$$ selling the leftovers. Or, a product line gets dropped or outsourced, and the tooling is leftover. Not like the average Joe needs a spindle from a G&L 8000, but drill bits, reamers, taps, etc, are often had for decent prices, and are "aerospace quality", not like the cheap stuff you buy at Home Depot or loews.
Anyway, I'm guessing the MTA does the same thing.
It was a PAST milestone, circa 1977-1982, when the system was constipated as hell, to use David L. Gunn's words, whereas you would have 20X the needed supply of pick up shoes for a R16 which was soon to be retired, yet nothing for a R42.
This has been part of the website for a while. Usually sell stuff most of us will never need. On the Memorabillia part, they have sold various decals, signs, and the like...Only problem they don't sell in ones and two's but lots of 50-100 items. Therefore if you bid on something and only want 1 or 2 how do you dispose of the remainder. Also they may group many decals into one lot.
There are currently 7 services serving the line Far Rock, Far Rock local, Lefferts, Lefferts Shuttle, the C, the H and Rock park expresses.
Any ideas the maintain current service, do not involve other lines, don't add to the number of services (OK maybe 1 more) and get rid of the Far Rock local to 207.
Remember, no E to Euclid.
No infrastructure builds.
No busses ( busses are a good idea but would never fly)
Stuff also has to get shopped and cleaned.
No armies of switchmen.
No wrong railing and single tracking.
The only way to eliminate the Far Rock local is to replace it with a shuttle. I'm not thrilled with that idea but I know why you want it, so I'll play along.
Is a service improvement okay?
How's this:
(A)
All times except nights: Far Rockaway to 207th Street. Express between Euclid Avenue and Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street and between Canal Street and 168th Street.
< A >
Rush hours: Rockaway Park to Dyckman Street, peak direction only. Bypasses Rockaway Boulevard and 88th Street on the center track. Express between Euclid Avenue and Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street and between Canal Street and 168th Street.
(C)
All times: Lefferts Boulevard to 168th Street. Local. Nights, extended to 207th Street.
(H)
All times except nights: Rockaway Park to Broad Channel. Connect at Broad Channel to (A).
Nights: Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway to Euclid Avenue to Rockaway Park (round-robin shuttle). Connect at Euclid Avenue to (C). Northbound trains bypass Rockaway Boulevard and 88th Street on the center track.
(If possible, on the night H, schedule opposing trains to meet at Broad Channel, Beach 90th Street, and Beach 67th Street.)
Actually there is a valid reason to kill it. Even factoring the number of trips made a disproportionate number of incidents occur on the Far Rock jobs.
The Euclid shuttle is a total waste of cleaning staff at Lefferts. There are three trains that after the first two hours are spotless and still get cleaned for another 3 hours
Are you arguing with me? I didn't disagree! All I meant is that, from a service standpoint, shuttles are a pain. (Are there any late night flights at JFK?)
What do you think of my proposal? It seems a bit untraditional to run the C all night, but if during the day the C is the only route to Lefferts, it seems to me that a local from Lefferts to 207th is more similar to the C than to the A.
I was half expecting for someone to bring the other two Hoyt tracks into this.
A night OPTO from 207 to 168 was also on my mind.
There is a HUGE passenger load north of 168 st otherwise ending the A at 168 and extending the C to 207 would be the easiest.
A daytime 3 tripper Express from Lefferts to 168 was a thought as well as 2 tripper C local to Far Rock.
JFK is open 24/7. The H would be a S
You are not happy with it but it is a service improvement?
I came up with almost exactly the same thing but you can't skip those stations people may want to get off (no nighttime expresses!). The only way to reduce unneeded service is to start the round robin at Rock Blvd, which in winter is a b$%@^.
The fact that Euclid to Rock Blvd currently has more service at night than everywhere but the Queens and Brooklyn corridors is nuts.
At 20 minute headways, the level of coordination on the H is too much to ask for.
There is a daytime service improvement, in particular on the Lefferts and Far Rockaway branches, which would see double the service they see now. The loss is to the Far Rockaway branch at night, but as you point out, Far Rockaway shuttle service is probably the lesser of two evils.
I doubt there are many nighttime riders from the Rockaways to the two bypassed stations. The few who make that trip can backtrack. (If there are more than a dozen such passengers all night, then I take back my suggestion of bypassing the stations. Better yet, bypass them northbound unless a passenger has asked the crew to stop. There's no reason for anyone on the platform to board a northbound H except, I suppose, for those few only going a few stops or those preferring to wait for the C underground.) In either case I'd run through to Euclid, at least in the winter, even if it's not strictly necessary.
Double is too much where do you get those trains, I assumed we would rebalance the numbers on the services to keep it fairly close to current levels. First get workable routes then play with TPH and train sets on each service. Extending the C to Lefferts steals one or two sets from the Far Rock A.
>If there are more than a dozen such passengers all night, then I >take back my suggestion of bypassing the stations.
12 is right, half transit workers and the rest fast food workers going back to Lefferts. And another 12 going the other way and the same types too. If they all could just swap jobs we could cut the service.
We couldn't rebalance the numbers on the branches without cutting service drastically all through Brooklyn and Manhattan. But the branches are currently in the awkward position of being the only lines that have more frequent night service than midday service. (Night headways are 20 minutes. Midday headways on the A creep a bit over 10 minutes, but only alternate trains serve each branch.) Fixing that wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if the Port Authority expects an increase in ridership to Howard Beach (I'm skeptical). Yes, it would require extra cars, but we'll have extra cars soon. (I do realize that, if all of the dream proposals posted here are put into action, we'll need a supplemental order of at least 10,000 cars.)
My H proposal had southbound trains stopping at 88th and Rockaway; only northbound trains would bypass them (and, as per my later emendation, even they would stop if a passenger so requests), so it would only be an issue in one direction.
(Incidentally, notice that even the midday S became the H. We have too many S's, it's already known as the H internally, and IINM the rollsigns all have blue H's. I dislike the practice of giving every short route the letter S.)
Was it the 73 map that had 4 S trains?
I don't know, but the 2001 map has five S trains plus overnight shuttles.
I taped that half hour cable show put out by NYCT called TRANSIT TRANSIT. While last months show looked into the attack of 9/11 and how NYCT was affected and reacted, they continue that with the November installment.
There are some below ground zero shots of both Cortlandt St stations. Also an eye opening shot of the cave in of Cortlandt St station from the street above. Transit Transit was always sappy in the past with their homogenous stories, but the 9/11 attack gives us a perspective not seen on usual network news.
Check the MTA website after you click on NYCT and click on Transit Transit on the left. They should have a listing of what days/nights this show airs and what channel it's seen on which cable supplier.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sappy is an understatement. That show reminds me of the Brady Bunch, where everything is picture perfect.
And what do you expect from a employee newsletter put out by the PR department ?
I think they try to inform & make it interesting, the Brady Bunch attitude just goes with the territory.
Mr t__:^)
For the naive non electric traction buff/fan/nut, it is a decent show.
Otherwise, fugetabouit.
There is another one on LI, it's called the Train Show.
A long time sponcer has been Train Land/Train World, but they have added a few other Nassau County hobbie shops recently.
It's mostly model stuff, but some times they feature the big stuff, e.g. #7 Wrap Train with Pataki, Giuliani & Becker getting off at Shea; NY & Atlantic operation on Bay Ridge branch; etc. (www.mrli.com)
Last Friday was for modelers with shots of the layouts at Willis Hobbies.
Mr t__:^)
I would watch it for the hobbyist in me, especially for O gauge action. HO and especially N doesn't cut it for me!
That show I believe did some shots at the BRMRR (Bay Ridge Model Railroad Club), Marive Avenue and Oliver Street, Bay Ridge.
If you call & invite him over, he'll show up with his son in toe & do your layout. This past Friday a young woman was showing how she made her layout interesting in the creative way she painted the people, e.g. a Boy Scout camp on her Mt. Also a company has come out with some very neat billboards that you can custom make. A previous issue featured engine 35 & the prep. for her going to Oyster Bay ... see their site for some August photos of the event.
(www.members.AOL.COM/belpaire/loco)
It's an interesting 1/2 hour most of the time.
Mr t__:^)
They should have a listing of what days/nights this show airs and what channel it's seen on which cable supplier.
It's on channel 25. That allows someone to watch it while avoiding the HORRORS of cable TV.
At around 1:30pm today, SEPTA was forced to run shuttle buses between 69 St Terminal and 30 St (later cut back to 63 St) due to a disabled train on 2 track heading out of 69 St. The 6 car train suffered brake failure as it left the terminal, with only 2 of the 6 cars making it out of the station. The stalled train was merging onto the eastbound track when it stalled. This prevented trains from using 3 track since there was not sufficient clearance for trains to pass by the stalled train. Service was restored about 45 minutes later. I find it hard to believe that it took nearly an hour for a train to be towed back about 5-10 feet. Even if only one of the two outbound tracks were available, service could have operated with only minor delays had SEPTA been able to move the train back about 5 feet or so.
How does one move a stuck subway or other MU train? Can it be pushed or pulled by a service engine of some sort? What did they have to do to move it?
Mark
Another train can always be hooked up to 'tow' the disabled one. Being within the proverbial spitting distance of 69th St yard, it is puzzling why SEPTA didn't merely grab a train from the yard and do just that. Then again, we are talking about SEPTA...
Hi,
I collect subway maps. I'm trying to focus on current maps and pre-WWII maps. I have a nice pre-war London map, a nice pre-war Chicago map, and am working on other cities.
Looking for a New York map, I've noticed that every pre-war New York map I've seen is issued by a bank or some other non-transit business. Were there "official" New York transit maps in the pre-war years, or are they just so valued that they rarely come to market?
Thanks for any info you can provide,
Eric Mathiasen
eric@mathiasen.com
Chicago
Before 1940, parts of the subway system were either private or public.
The IND, which was public owned from the start (1932-) usually had maps printed in the telephone books of the time, some maps were also printed on bank flyers.
The BMT, which was private until 1940, had their own maps printed, that did not show other lines, as the IRT and the IND.
The IRT, which also was private until 1940, was unique in it's maps displayed it's routes in a horizontal fashion, rather than vertical, which was the standard, even today. The IRT also did not show connection with (then) competing lines.
>>> The IRT also did not show connection with (then) competing lines. <<<
The IRT map did not show the competing lines at all, except the Astoria and Flushing lines shared with the BMT. The IRT was busy promoting where one could go on their system, not providing a public service. They did not show connections with competing lines, because at that time there were no connections within the fare controls. There is an IRT (as well as BMT and IND) map on this site in the historical maps section.
Tom
Hagstrom's put out subway maps for many years.
Welcome back to all!
Still searching for the revised Mary schedule, Zman gave me approx. times for the expanded service, but the Web site is still gung-ho on the service disruptions, which are mostly eliminated.
What do you mean by expanded service? When the M went from Metro to Stillwell? I think that for about 2 weeks after 9/11 TA was more concerned about having service operating that coming up with a timetable as to when it would come. The idea was to have the trains moving as best as possible.
No, he is not talking about that. He is talking about later service to and from Bay Pkwy. The last train now leaves Met at 9:04 PM and leaves Bay Pkwy. at 8:51 PM. The extra service is a complete waste of money, it is Pataki lollipop to the Chaintown commmunity. The last train out of Bay Pkwy is empty all the way to Broad St. If that train follows a J from Broad to Bway Myrtle, it is still empty to that point, with a returning shuttle leaving BM right behind it. A bus could pick up the "crowd" easily! MTA: Money Thrown Away.
How popular is the midday extension to 9th Avenue?
Has the Bowery seen a surge in ridership?
From what I can see, not many people ride thru the Nassau cut middays, however, I have seen an increase of ridership at the Bowery, definitely not a surge.
Expanded service that was put into effect in August, with Mary's extended to 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway, West End.
My post had NOTHING to do with the service changes on 9/11.
I notice that since the N Train started terminating at 86th Street, the destination signs have them terminating at Kings Highway. Don't the destination signs have 86th Street on them (particularly the new ones)?
- Lyle Goldman
The old ones definitely do not. Don't know about the new ones.
The R68s have it, at least now since the new ones have come out. I don't think any of the other models do.
I've seen a few R-68s on the N line and all of them say they will terminate at Kings Highway. You'd think that the MTA would've put in an 86th St sign in the new ones. I don't believe the new signs were put in too long ago and the MTA probably knew the N was going to terminate at 86 at the time.
--Kenny
Especially since this will be in effect until 2005.
I think it would do the city some good if they posted new destination signs saying "86th St/W 8th St."
If the Nancy had a dedicated fleet of cars, a la the IRT #7, they could improvise and put in temporary signage, but since the N's alphabet soup-mix of MU's (R32, R40, R68) is in place on the line, that's not possible.
The 68's and 68A's have it, the 32's and 40's don't.
But the R-68 and R-68A cars also say Kings Highway.
- Lyle Goldman
Yeah, I know. But I don't know why. I'll see if I can find out. But the 68/68A's do have a reading for 86th St. I remember seeing it when I scrolled through the new rollers when they were first installed. They say Brooklyn/86th Street. Maybe they don't want people to think the train goes to 86th and 4th Avenue? Who knows with the TA. I'm working for them almost 20 years now and still can't figure them out.
Could be. The other day some guy at Union St. asked me if I go to 86th St. I asked him if he wanted 86th on the R or 86th on the N. He got all snooty and told me: "The one and only 86th St." I told him that I am not a mind reader. As I moved the train out, I heard him screaming and cursing me out. No wonder why I'm a grump. Here I think I'm helping the guy and it was obvious he knew damn well that he needed the R and not the M.
Maybe 86th on the B-C or 1 or 4-5-6 or ride along 86th on the W
Hell Bill, he must have been a Brighton fan. You know those guys. They can't fine their way around and catch walk and chew gum at the same time. Come to think of it though, only one guy comes to mind so maybe I should refrain from going any further. No Q, I am not talking about you.
Lucky for me, I don't chew gum.
Must of been a Italian Republican
Aw Bob, stop trying to pass the buck---you know it was you I was talking about.
I know what that's like, I was on a R32 N coming home one day and I was in the same car as the conductor. This guy goes to him and asks him how he can get to some place, I didn't hear him. Then the c/r tells him that he told him a while back that he needed to transfer (I'm guessing to the R, possibly a 86th street confusion, or maybe something with B [back then] and N since they have a lot of stops with the same name) but he didn't. Then the c/r tries to be nice about it and asks where he needed to go. Somehow they ended up cursing at each other from New Utrecht to Bay Parkway (where the guy finally got off the train). This caused ~10 minutes of delays with the conductor and the lost guy cursing at each other back and fourth. When the guy got off they were still cursing at each other through the window.
Hell at this rate why don't they just curtail the Sea Beach at 59th Street and get it over with? They are messing with my train and I'm getting more pissed off about it by the second. I'll tell you this. When I get to New York again I am going to the TA and g et some damn questions answered as to why my line is getting barfed on. UUUGGGGHHHHH!!!!!! If only assault and battery was legal I actually think I could go after some of those morons.
I guess we have to get Sarg to stay with you. Good idea through run a shuttle on the Sea beach from 59th to 86th St, nobody rides that portion anyway
Hey! That where we pick most of our passengers during rush hour. 8th Avenue, Ft Hamilton, Bay Parkway, and possibly Kings Highway have densly packed stations. Hm... am I the only one who takes the Sea Beach nowadays on Subtalk?
"But the R-68 and R-68A cars also say Kings Highway."
That would also come in handy for the Brighton and Culver lines if service had to terminate there.
Bill "Newkirk"
What I meant was, even the R-68 and R-68A cars on the N line were displaying the Kings Highway signs, even though they have 86th Street signs that they could have (and should have) displayed.
- Lyle Goldman
How is the railfan view out the front of an R142. I know that there is a transverse cab, but many subway designs still offer a view. The worst would be a sheetmetal barrier like on NJT MU's. Slightly better would be the tennis ball sized hole on the R44/46. Next would be something frosted or barred like on the BSS or DC Metro and the best would be like the view from a SEPTA silverliner. Can you see the driver's controls and the speedo? Also how do you pass through between A ends?
Frosted, like on the R-46, R-68, and R-68A. The window is a bit larger but the view is still fuzzy.
(The clear peephole is only on the R-44, not the R-46, and I'm not sure if all R-44's have it.)
The public can't pass through A ends, but A ends are only at the front and rear of five-car sets.
What about if/when the lines go OPTO? Could you pass through then? IE are the cabs halfable?
No, I don't think so. Incidentally, there are no cabs at all at B ends -- there are only four cabs per (ten-car) train, all transverse.
Frosted, like on the R-46, R-68, and R-68A. The window is a bit larger but the view is still fuzzy.
It's not frosted, it's polarized. You can see something straight ahead, but everything even a slight angle off is distorted.
Story on cnn.com
On the news this AM, they said it didn't help.
Mr t__:-(
It was interesting to find out that for several rides the woman used 2 stations (77 st and 86 st IRT) near me and not the one nearest to work (68 st).
Could have been a computer problem, i.e. I don't think anybody check that it records the correct address/type of mass transit when you use it.
At my depot if the driver logs in wrong ... well garbich in garbich out ... thankfully the boys & girls do it right most of the time (yes I check). Doing my end-of-the-month throw away the Cubic "hiccups" right now ... some times the computer spits up or hiccups, then it's fine again ... why, good question.
Mr t__:^)
I read somewhere that the Redbirds are being stripped at 207 St yard prior to loading onto barges for onward burial at sea with full honours. Does anyone know whether it would be possible to salvage any rollerblind units from this site i.e. would NYCTA be amenable to approaches for purchase or are the units simply dumped in dumpsters and taken away for recyling? I'd love to have one of these in my home in Manchester - would make a great partner for my 9' long NYC Subway Uptown 7th Ave Express (1 2 and 3 trains) platform edge sign from Chambers St. It seems a shame if all of that great transit stuff goes to waste.
>It seems a shame if all of
>that great transit stuff goes to waste.
AAAAAAAAMEN!!
Sell the rollsigns for 5 bucks a foamer, and PRESTO!
you have enough finances to cover the rebuilding of
the IRT tunnel and the resurrection of 2nd Ave Stubway!!
I'd rather see the removable stuff sold to trolley museums around the country for charitable resale with profits going to a 9/11 disaster relief fund. I think railfans and tourists elswhere in the country would buy stuff they otherwise wouldn't if they knew it went to a good cause.
Yeah, can't argue with that.
New York City has really shown its class by the way they have come together in the wake of the September 11 tragedy, and I will make every effort to come to New York next summer and spend my vacation money to do my part to help the economy. I'm hoping my wife will come along with me so we can see some Broadway shows and make the tours of the great city. It won't hurt a bit to know that New Yorkers didn't buy any of that phony Mark Green's propaganda and rejected him as Mayor of the greatest city in the world. Riding the subways next summer will be a pleasure knowing the city is not in his hands. When he said he could do as good a job as Rudy in dealing with the city's reaction to the Sept. 11 crime it showed he had a lot of chutzpah and a lot of nerve to even suggest such a thing. Good for you New Yorkers. You did the right thing.
Thanks, but lets see what Bloomy does.
Bloomberg does have the right attitude to be mayor of New York -- that of a supremely self-confident, arrogant SOB. Admittedly, this is not the type of person you would like to pal around with, but in terms of dealing with all of the varying interests a mayor of New York has to deal with, anyone without a lot of self confidence or anyone wanting to "be loved" by everyone is going to get eaten up and spit out by the special interests in no time at all.
The only qualifier here is that along with the self-confidence and the willingness to hurt other people's feelings, the new mayor has to have a plan for what he wants to do, and the ability to execute it. Most of the really successful mayors of the city have come into office with a definite idea of what they wanted to do -- LaGuardia and Koch to restore the city from the brink of bankruptcy and Giulinai lower the crime rate that had annual murders up near the 2,000 mark. If Bloomberg doesn't have a plan down by Jan. 1 on what he wants to do, his personality could turn into a negative, if the public sees him to be arrigant and over-confident but with no vision of where he wants to take the city.
Well he has made his point clear, and it will be like koch and la guardia and that is to boost the economy, either by new towers, by lowering crime, by any means, even by starting new constuction projects (second avenue line)
something to boost the economy, thats the most important thing right now for this city. and luckily we have a mayor that knows how to make money
Like every other new mayor, Mr. Bloomburg will be 'hit upside de head' with his electoral promises. The one that stood out to me: "Lets make the subway trains and station platforms longer to handle more passengers." That is a BIG ONE. I hope his business sense does TA well. Peter
Reminds me of the days of Lindsay
The only qualifier here is that along with the self-confidence and the willingness to hurt other people's feelings, the new mayor has to have a plan for what he wants to do, and the ability to execute it. Most of the really successful mayors of the city have come into office with a definite idea of what they wanted to do -- LaGuardia and Koch to restore the city from the brink of bankruptcy and Giulinai lower the crime rate that had annual murders up near the 2,000 mark. If Bloomberg doesn't have a plan down by Jan. 1 on what he wants to do, his personality could turn into a negative, if the public sees him to be arrigant and over-confident but with no vision of where he wants to take the city.
I would imagine that the city's recovery from September 11 is going to be Bloomberg's number one priority. He really doesn't have any choice in the matter.
Looking farther ahead, I imagine that he will be better for transit than Green would have been, the "taxis are transit" comment notwithstanding. Bloomberg is a businessman, and as such he knows that good transit is absolutely essential to a good business environment in the city. Green supported transit too, of course, but his support probably was more a matter of political expediency than a calculated dollars-and-cents decision. And it's the latter sort of decision that leads to action.
When did Bloomberg ever ride public transit?
When did Bloomberg ever ride public transit?
Probably not for many years. But that's beside the point. What matters is that he understands the importance of transit to the city's economy, based on his business experience, and therefore hopefully can be counted on to support transit improvements.
When [Mark Green] said he could do as good a job as Rudy in dealing with the city's reaction to the Sept. 11 crime it showed he had a lot of chutzpah and a lot of nerve to even suggest such a thing.
I don't get the logic behind this argument. Why attack someone because he thinks he can do as good or better than the current mayor in a crisis. If you ask me, the next mayor had better think that!
Boomberg had a lot of nerve to attack Green for that. And he had a lot of nerve to claim he had the better experience--he's never held public office before!
New York didn't "reject" Green wholesale. The election was evenly split, and I don't think most of the voters cared that much for either one of them.
:-) Andrew
Fred always has to bring his Republican Politics into it. Well at least Virginia and New Jersey went Demo, thanks toi the Bush Recession. And don t say it started with Clinton, it did during his term, but after Bush was elected, and people saw the handwriting on the wall
Bob, I know you can read and since you can you know I never mentioned the word Republican at any time. My point was that Mark Green is a big publicity hog and makes all sorts of statements and never follows it up with anything. Most New Yorkers knew that and, hell, I even knew it even though I live almost 3,000 miles away. I think even you knew it. BTW, did the mail arrive?
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
My father didn't care for Mark Green anyway so you have another person that didn't care for Mark Green. Though I'm a registered democrat I might have voted for Mike Bloomberg if I lived within the New York City limits.
#3 West End Jeff
Same here. :-)
Bloomberg was a big Clinton supporter, both during his 1996 re-election and during his 1998 problems with the intern, and as has been mentioned often, he swtiched to the Republican party because he decided (correctly, as it turns out) that with the crowded Democratic field, it was his best chance to get elected.
While Bloomy's self-confidence and autocratic business nature can serve him well in the mayor's office if he's focused and knows what he wants to do, the fact that he's only a nominal Republican means it wouldn't surprise me at all a few months down the line to find those personality traits have put him him at odds with Pataki over the direction of spending funds for the city's downtown restoration (and I'd also guess there's about a 40-60 chance he would switch back to the Democratic party to run for re-election in 2005, if he and the state/federal GOP leaders really have a falling out).
Don't count on it. Blomberg does a good job and he can run for higher office some day, say Governor of US Senator. The office of Mayor of New York can be a great stepping stone for one who has politcal ambitions, and if he can win as a Republican in New York City he can certainly win as one statewide. Maybe he and Rudy will both serve in the Senate, and don't be surprised if the outgoing Mayor doesn't run for President and win some day. He has certainly shown he is a great leader.
No outgoing Mayor from NYC since 1900 ever went to higher elected political office.
Always a first time for everything and this is probably the time.
It would be interesting if Mike Bloomberg does run for higher office. The questtion is will he win?
#3 West End Jeff
Yes, on Monday. I e mailed you rthe other day didn t you get it?
I did not get it for some strange reason. Good to know it arrived. Well you should be happy, you got a Democrat governor for your state, but we'll get it back in 2005. Too bad about the Yankees, eh? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!! Have a great day my good friend.
Yea, but where were your Mets, the closest they got waS 3RD Place in a weak Eastern Division.
>> ...thanks toi the Bush Recession. And don t say it started with Clinton, it did during his term, but after Bush was elected, and people saw the handwriting on the wall <<
You don't really expect anyone with an IQ over 100 to believe that, do you?
This is not a "Bush" recession. It is more like a "venture-capitalists-fianlly-got-tired-of-dot.coms-with-no-business-model-buring-through-millions-of-dollars-of-VC" and "idiot-stock-market-players-who-finally-learned-the-hard-way-that-dot.com-companies-trading-at-eleventy-billion-times-revenues(earnings? HAH!)-were-eventually-supposed-to-make-money-to-survive" recession.
Blaming the recession on Bush is as idiotic as crediting the (reckless) dot.com boom to Clinton.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Save your breath rednoise because Bob doesn't hear a word of what you are saying, and he never will.
As Georgie would say is Hee Haw still on
Mark Green's chutzpah and arrogance lost him the election. His imperial know-it-all, professional politician attitude did him in.
He looked positively shell shocked during his concession speech. he must have been thinking "this can't be happening to me", but it did.
His "kill it, kill it" at the last minute was the sign of a desperate man. While raising Bloomberg's (alledegedly) sexist remarks at a press conference may be a legimate tactic, doing alongside Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton was DUMB. How can you discuss alledgedly sexist behavior with two of Washington's biggest whore-masters standing next to you ?????? BIG MISTAKE !!!!!!!!!
Also not reaching out to the black community hurt. According to a graphic Green got 75% of the black vote and Bloomy got 22% as a Republican. Democrats usually get 85 - 90 of the black vote. Had he reached out harder to the black community and tried to mend fences with Ferrer he would have had the election.
BTW - Has Mark Green ever worked for an entity whose website didn't end in either .org or .gov? Another words has he ever worked in private industry to understand what is needed in a recovery from a disaster ?
To paraphrase Thurston's post on Bus-Talk regarding the Nassau County
Elections - "Green was blowing his smoke up New Yorker's asses, but they weren't buying it"
Arrogance doesn't even begin to describe the things that did Green in. Or for that matter, the Democrats in particular. In essence, they ran this election in a way that told everyone "Well give you a BS candidate because a) never, in NYC history, has the GOP won three straight times, and b) Bloomberg is part of the 'special interests.'" A) First of all, I never thought the WTC would be knocked down in the manner that it was either, so now I'm in the anything - can - happen mode, and B) Tell me something I didn't know.
Even though I'm a registered Democrat, let me say this: Green and the rest of them deserved to lose. Period.
never, in NYC history, has the GOP won three straight times
COUGH:::LaGuardia:::COUGH
"COUGH:::LaGuardia:::COUGH"
I thought LaGuardia was from the third party.
I thought LaGuardia was from the third party.
Such a thing has never been done.
LaGuardia ran both as a Republican and on a third party line, similar to the way Giuliani ran on the Republican and Liberal lines in 1997, in order to offer voters who couldn't stomach pulling the GOP lever a chance to cast a ballot for him on another line. And like Rudy, the third party line Fiorello ran on was nomimally to the left of both the N.Y.C. Republican and Democratic parties (though it's hard to say that about the Liberal Party as it exists today).
Well it will be a pleasure that the things Bloomberg has will keep most of the Gullianni regime intact. I liked the way that Rudy ran the city, and I know that Bloomberg will do everything to help rebuild it.
I think that the Democratic party stepped on its own proverbials yesterday. Mark Green ran one of the dirtiest campaigns in recent history - angering members of his own party. The handwriting was on the wall when Charles Rangle threatened to cross party lines. Then there was Greens refusal to kiss Fernando ferrer's ring or Sharpton's ass (or is it the other way around?).
My own theory is that the state democratic machine felt that the city will be in worse shape than is publicly pictured and was afraid that Green (or any of the democratic light-weights) would only fail under the glare of the national spotlight following 9/11. Add to this a Republican Governor and an enormously popular republican former mayor, in a leadership role in the rebuilding of the city. I'd say the democrats might have thrown green to the wolves by throwing the election. Had Green won, the party would have suffered a major meltdown when Green failed to deliver the city from the devestation of 9/11.
Green lost because the majority of New Yorkers suspect that in a Democratic administration, the vested interests that are the foundation of the machine would get even more, leaving even less for the rest of us. Divisive racial politics didn't help either.
The same thing happened in NYs Nassau County, where the Republican machine was thrown out after bankrupting the county.
Green's campaign was very dirty. Mark Green really turned me off. He sorta reminded me of these corrupt lawyers that tell lies (I knew a few).
After Sept.11th my own opinion is that Mike Bloomberg was clearly the better candidate. Although he didn't have much political experience, his business experience will be a great asset to the City Of New York. I think he can get to rebuilding the WTC and improve NYC's economy. Mark Green would've been using his big mouth to stir anger and division, something we do not need in these times. I'm much relieved that the election is over and Mr.Bloomberg won. The voters of NYC made the right choice. I don't live in NYC so I couldn't vote in the Mayoral election. I did vote in Nassau and did not re-elect Gulotta's machine (even though he wasn't running).
Political party really doesn't matter as much to me as the candidates. Especially after September 11th, people should act together. Guiliani has done the best job a mayor could do under these circumstances, and Bloomberg will try his best to live up to that. As far as the 2nd ave subway goes, as much as a transit supporter as I am, rebuilding the WTC and strengthening NYC's economy are the priorities.
I for one have lost all faith in New York (if I had any). I can't wait to point and laugh while Bloombirg cuts city services in order to finance a tax cut for himself and his billionaire friends. So much for subway improvements. HA ha. Everybody come on over to New Jersey, we now have a government that cares for the "insignificant" 95%. It looks like Rudy managed to extend his dictatorship for another term.
Thanks for the flowerly nonsensical oratory Comrade.
Did you know the Nazi s also used the word Comrade ?
I wouldn't know that since I am not a Nazi. How do you know it? Kidding. Actually I never knew those racists used that term, but if you read Jersey's post you have to conclude that he way out in left field, in fact out of the ballpark, so I used the word comrade in jest.
Komaraden)Comrad in German)
Thr Russians also use the term Comrade.
Bob knows that Steve. BOY DOES BOB EVER KNOW THAT!!!!!!! I'm thinking of getting him a picture of Brezhnev for his birthday.
Why would I want a picture of a dead man, Oh I know one live dead person Fred likes The Former Actor, Gov and Pres, The Gipper. Or is it one dead live person?
The great President Reagan has just written his auto-biography. You want a copy sent to you? You will love it. It is called "All My Fine Memories". It's in the mail
I read it, all 120 blank pages
Nice to know that you can still walk upright will stepping on your own knickles.
I don't have any knickles, I cashed them in for dollar bills.
FYI its not just me that think Republicans are the evil scum of the earth and do nothing but further their own greed. Furthermore, the endorcement of the current mayor does not qualify someone to become mayor themselves. A good deal of NYCers seemed to think that was the case.
First, the current mayor gave his endorsement, not his "endorcement".
Second, I have no interest in the political opinions of a person who would supply information to terrorists in the name of the first ammendment.
On the nightly news they called it "king making" and esticated that 75% of his support came from the "Gulliani Effect".
50% of the participating electorate voted for Mr. Bloomburg while 47% voted for Mr. Green. Yet less than 2 million votes were cast in a city of 7+ million. Do not blame the current mayor for verbally expressing his preference as to who succeeds him or for votor apathy. Ferdie Ferere and Shady Sharpton had the same opportunity and opted not to endorse the Democratic party choice. Also keep in mind that there is a 5:1 ratio of Democrats to Republicans in the city. If the Republican candidate was victorious, it indicates that the participating electorate thought more of the Gulliani endorsement than the extremely negative Green campaign. Of course the Dems can always claim voter irregularities, confusing ballots, hanging chads, pit bulls at the polling places, etc.
Yet less than 2 million votes were cast in a city of 7+ million.
Yep, fly the flag proudly from your car as you drive past the polling station without stopping to vote. What patriotism!
Mark
If you're driving your car past the polling station, chances are that if you do stop to vote, you'll come back to a parking ticket.
Tell you what Jersey. I'll start saving for a ticket to Pyongyang or Havana. As soon as I save the dough I will contact you to ask you your choice of destination and you can have a free trip. I'll also throw in a portrait of Stalin to keep you warm at night.
Cuba's a lovely place to go on vacation over March break.
-Robert King
Would love to go to Cuba, beautiful beaches, warm weather, the dollar goes further then San Juan or St Thomas.
Right Bob, and the real kicker is that you could get to meet your idol, that macho cigar smoking man about town Fidel. That would be a real hoot for you, eh?
Fidel, who cares, a cigar that will go good,
Bob ... ever been up to Canada? The most amusing part of it all is along the borders are duty-free shops and guess what *THE* most popular stop before Doanes/customs is? Yepper - stores RIGHT on the border selling tax free Cuban cigars ... heh.
If you're ever up this way (upstate) and feel like going over the fence, buy Unca Fred a box of Cubans ... then drop dime on his butt. :)
The way to support Communeism is to foster unrestrained capitalism. Abused, neglected and unhappy people who have nothing to live for turn into terrorists and revolutionaries. I stand for Darwinism, not wealth perpetuation.
Yo, you can't even spell communism so how can you understand the collective environment spelled out by your leader and master Stalin?? I stand for genetic purity enabled by my leader, the 'Big Bug.' If you're stupid and careless, the 'Big Bug' will fry your miserable ass and assure the end of your collective genetic heritage without discrimination. BIG BUG FOR BIN LODEN On the Juice Peter.
You're lucky we live in a society that offers some protection for the weak. If it were survival of the fittest, you'd have perished long ago. And if I told you once, I've told you a dozen times, "Standing on your knuckles impresses no one here".
Assume all unidentified fish are sharks. Peter
I am not crazy about either candidate, but I get unnerved when someone spends $50 million + on a bid to become Mayor at $150K salary.
Wouldn't he be better off buying a town and enacting Bloomberg's Law upon it's dwellers?
Why does that unnerve you? It would make you feel better if people running for office did it for the salary?
Actually, yes. In that case, we know his/her purpose for trying to get the job. What does this man want? A power thing?
Well, I think that most people capable of becoming mayor can get a much higher paying job in the private sector. Anybody who runs for office does so to seek power. There might be some altruism involved, but there is no such thing as a true altruist.
"Well, I think that most people capable of becoming mayor can get a much higher paying job in the private sector. Anybody who runs for office does so to seek power. There might be some altruism involved, but there is no such thing as a true altruist."
Neither is there such a thing as someone who is 100% concerned with power. On the other hand I believe most public servants have a greater portion of what you call altruism than greed for power. Anyone in a position of power in the private sector has much more power than any politician. Much of what a politician does involves compromise. Leaving the private sector for a position in government involves loss of power.
On another note, what you call altruism is, in many cases, not altruism but ideology.
Ah ... the truth here though is it's pure *EGO* ... politics is the ultimate popularity contest and massage of ego ... haven't met one yet that cared more about their constituents than they did about themselves, and how much adulation they could score. They're worse than TV anchors ... but they're in it for the ego massage. Wish I could say it runs deeper than that, but I've met just about every politico in New York and many of the bigger fish too.
That might be the reason, future service down the road in the public or private sector. I can't fathom of any other reason, except the power trip thing as Train Dude pointed out elsewhere.
"I am not crazy about either candidate, but I get unnerved when someone spends $50 million + on a bid to become Mayor at $150K salary."
If Mr. Bloomberg is a billionaire, $50 million amounts to 5% (or less)of his net worth. If you eally want to be mayor, 5% of your worth may be a small price. Think about what Ivana must have cost Donald since the divorce. One thing is sure, he'll likely not give into small payoffs from corporations.
Ivana and Donald Trump (I assume) had some sort of pre-nuptual aggrement, but I can't compare a marriage to becoming mayor.
It just tells me he is not prudent in a financial sense, unless this was an absolute must for him. Go figure.
Re; your posting to Pig, what does he want? My point was, what does the man want who has the drop-dead gorgeous girl on his arm, knowing that she's only with him because of the size of the green bulge in his pocket. It may be ego. It may be a power thing. It may even be a higher sense of purpose. If he's willing to pay the price and do the job, why should his motivations be second guessed.
I wasn't second guessing his motivations, just his sanity. But this is NYC, and anything goes.
Uh, Fred...last time I checked you were situated 1,000 + miles from Nueva York. You have some pair of ballz to tell bona fide New Yorkers how to vote. I'm not going to comment on how Los Angeles citizenry choose their city officials so why do you have to 'sound off' on us?
BTW, you'll love this: Bloomberg is a Democrat at heart. (he used the Republican ticket solely to get elected).
Adios Amigo!
BMTman
Try 2,800 miles Amigo! And I wasn't telling you New Yorkers how to vote, just congratulating the wisdom and smarts of you city dwellers on how you voted. You mean I can't express my opoinion Doug? Shame shame. BTW, why did it take you so long to respond to my first piece on this subject anyway??? Uh oh, I get it, you were a Green supporter. And I had you figured for an intellengent guy. Oh well. And if you want to comment on things in Los Angeles, go right ahead. It is your privilege. Remember this, though. I am a native of New York City, try to visit the place as often as I can, and feel a certain attachment to the place, especially after September 11. Can you dig that my friend? As for balls, I am a man with the guts to say what he means. You can't tell me that's bad, can you? At any rate, have a great week.
Does anyone know whether he thinks its a priority?
He has termed it "a non-starter".
He also thinks the cross-harbor freight tunnel is a dead issue.
He seems to be of the Robert Moses school of mass transit. He thinks we need more express bus service and that will make everything better (at least that's what he said in the last debate).
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Oh, well. We've been waiting 75 years, so what's another 75 or so?
Before 9/11 he was in favor of a scaled down version. Yes that depend what you consider the 2nd ave above 63 only or the 'full monty' all the way to Wall St.
He was talking about a UN to Wall St type service.
There is a 6 Billion shortfall projected and major union unrest, I think new capital project are off the table for a bit.
I don't understand why so many people are against the scaled down version. Yes the full would be better. BUt let's see the alternative: A full 2nd avenue or NONE. Let's get the scaled down version first, and then try to get the full one. They've been fighting for the full one for years and we still have nothing. Wouldn' it be better to at least have half?
Of course a 2nd Avenue "stubway" would be better than nothing, and we could have it, if the congressional, assembly, council, and both Senate districts were all one and it lay over the entire length of the route. Ol' Shel Silver, speaker of the house, will never permit an Upper East Side line without it extending to serve his Lower East Side district, for example. Politics, politics, politics.
A real shame. Looks like it will never happen at least not while any of us (or our children) are alive. (Especially after 9/11)
I kinda like the stubway, it moves people from where they live right into the center of midtown. I mean, even if you work on Lexington, Park, or Madison, it's still a bit of a trot from 2nd Ave, and if you work more centrally in midtown, forget it. I'm not sure that many people would really use a 2nd Ave to get work.
Also, I would build it down 1st Avenue anyway. I mean 3rd Ave is already closer to the Lex Line. A 1st Ave sub would serve York-2nd pretty conveniently.
It's all a pipe dream anyway (hey, is that a pun?) but what else is SubTalk for?
Keep in mind that below Grand Central, the so-called Lexington Avenue line is on Park Avenue South. I worked one summer at NYU Medical Center. It's a shlep.
I do agree that a stubway is better than nothing. But, please, build it so (a) it can be extended to the south and (b) two more tracks can be added later for express service.
We'll take what we can get, but yes, it should be 4-track, at least from Houston to somewhere north of 63rd.
I think if Shel Silver wants to stand in the way of building the 2nd Avenue subway because the first phase of construction does not include his neighborhood, he should be tied to a pole and horse-whipped! This is not the time for elected officials to be playing politics and only caring about themselves (there should never be a time for that). Not after all that New York has gone through in these past two months! Any politician that goes back to playing politics deserves a serious beating!
Sorry, I had to get that out. It really angers me to hear that any poltician would even consider going back to playing politics after all we've been through. Have they learned nothing from the huge tragedy that we went through on 9/11?
Well he's been saying things along the lines of, a 2nd Avenue Subway is still badly needed, but there's no way we'll find the money for it anytime soon, thanks to 9/11. He's probably right about that. Of course, we didn't have the money for it before 9/11 either, just no one was admitting that that was the case. His stopgap measure is the bus-lanes-with-camera-enforcement idea.
(His stopgap measure is the bus-lanes-with-camera-enforcement idea.)
His neighbors will talk him out of taking space away from cabs.
Bloomberg definately knows more about transit than Green. And Bloomberg is straight forward, and has the know how to run NYC and keep it's economy going. Even before Sept.11th I felt Bloomberg was the better candidate. Unusual coming from a guy that usually votes Democrat. Lately I've been crossing party lines more often.
[Lately I've been crossing party lines more often.]
So the communist have the New York Republican Party now to. Oh well thank God there are choices other than the Democrats and the Republicans.
Go ahead, throw away your vote.
Face it, they're both one-eyed space monsters. It does not matter for whom you vote, either way, the planet is DOOMED, DOOMED.
Abortions for all
BOOOOO!
Abortions for no one
BOOOOO!
Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others
YAAAAY!
Bloomberg definately knows more about transit than Green.
He is, however, pretty adamantly opposed to the freight-rail tunnel that has been supported (to varying degrees) by most other politicians. His concern is truck traffic in Brooklyn, a valid concern but hardly one to cashier the whole project.
Would love to see some discussion of pros/cons of the freight-rail tunnel here (now that I've returned to SubTalk). Apologies if it's been covered/hashed over/rehashed to death .....
My own view is that they should build a whopping big combination highway and rail bridge instead, built to carry heavy rail for freight and passenger service, connecting the LIRR to the NE corridor. This would entail building the Cross Borough Expressway (I think that's what they called it), essentially in the Bay Ridge branch r.o.w. out to the Grand Central and Van Wyck.
It seems much easier to build bridges and highways than it does rail lines. With ramifications out in Nassau, such a highway and bridge would be toll, and would provide some obvious relief for traffic that now has to go thru Manhattan. Direct rail service from Nassau County into the NE corridor, without having to go thru Penn Station is of obvious utility. The bridge and highway would pay for themselves. The rail line[s] would be the bonus.
Pro Freight Tunnel: IF built to handle four tracks -- sectioned two by two -- then passenger service could theoretically be included in the service. Getting trucks off the road would be the major benefits right away.
Con Freight Tunnel: Too costly. Would have to have near 'constant rail traffic' to make it cost effective. The gradients for the tunnel mouths at either end might require land aquisitions (uprooting residents ala Robert Moses).
BMTman
Well he's been saying things along the lines of, a 2nd Avenue Subway is still badly needed, but there's no way we'll find the money for it anytime soon, thanks to 9/11. He's probably right about that. Of course, we didn't have the money for it before 9/11 either, just no one was admitting that that was the case.
To repeat a point I made before Subtalk's hiatus, the events of September 11 may, strange as it sounds, make it easier to get funding for the Second Avenue line. If the MTA repairs the 1/9 tunnel and Cortlandt Street station within budget and in a reasonable period of time, it will help show that yes, it is competent and can be trusted to spend federal funds wisely.
If the MTA repairs the 1/9 tunnel and Cortlandt Street station within budget and in a reasonable period of time, it will help show that yes, it is competent and can be trusted to spend federal funds wisely.
I would suggest that opposite behavior is more likely to get more federal spending. Look at the military. They're almost always over budget and most of their weapon systems fail to meet their design objectives. That has rarely stopped Congress from giving them more money even if these systems are more dangerous to our troops than an enemy's. Look at the Osprey or before that the F-104 - the plane that broke the back of the Luftwaffe. :-)
The military is spread out across the country in literally dozens upon dozens of congressional districts, which helps give them clout in their lobbying with Congress. New York doesn't have that luxury, though for the time being, the reps down in D.C. are more sympathetic to the city's situation than at any time in recent memory.
But there are without a doubt people around the country just waiting to say "Same Old New York" if cost estimates go spinning wildly out of control or if the initial projects suddenly start blowing their budget estimates. Those folks would like to cut the city off right now, but can't do it because they would take a major public relations hit and be labeled "heartless" going into the 2002 election cycle. But give them a reconstruction spending scandal to work with and they'll slash the city's disaster relief funds in no time at all.
If New York can keep those things from happening, and given Pataki's re-election bid next year plus Bloomberg's win Tuesday, the Republican-controlled House is probably far more likely to actually give the city some additional cash in 2002 than they would be under any other circumstances, though I doubt Tom DeLay is going to be happy about it (he isn't too happy about the pro-light rail vote in Houston on Tuesday, either). But the Sept. 11 anniversary will fall right in the middle of next year's election cycle, so if the city plays it's cards right and keeps everyone on the straight and narrow, there could be additional funds coming next fall.
(given Pataki's re-election bid next year plus Bloomberg's win Tuesday, the Republican-controlled House is probably far more likely to actually give the city some additional cash in 2002 than they would be under any other circumstance)
Being anti-New York isn't just fun, its profitable. That's why suburban, upstate and Washington polticians still talk about big spending NYC, even though there hasn't been any big spending for 20 years. They need that to justify their own big spending, using money collected and needed here.
Just for the record, there are some Republicans that are very much pro-public transportation. I know of one real nutty subway fanatic that has this almost messianic devotion to some line with a strange name in Brooklyn. And, yes, the House of Rep will probably be more in tune to helping New York now.
Hey! There is NOTHING wrong with the F-104. It was revolutionary and incredibly effective...IF used it its intended role. The F-104 is a Mach 2 interceptor, NOT a slow speed ground attack aircraft. It's like using an ACELA train on the NYC Subway. Using the F-104 to strafe and drop bombs was insane. Just look at the aircraft. It was made for getting airborne and stopping enemy bombers.
From:
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f104.html
In June of 1958, English Electric test pilot Roland Beaumont test flew an F-104A. He was quite critical of the Starfighter. He found the aircraft to have inadequate directional damping, evidenced by a persistent low-amplitude short-period oscillation throughout most of the flight regime. The use of a thin, highly-loaded wing had a severe adverse effect on the turning maneuverability. There were excessive break-out forces of the power-controlled ailerons. At high angles of attack, the high-set stabilator would tend to stall in the wing downwash, and a departure into a flat spin was often the result. Recovery from such a flat spin was usually possible only if there was sufficient height so that increased engine power could be applied to accelerate the aircraft back into controlled flight. Beaumont found that subsonic handling properties were unpleasant and particularly dangerous in take-off and landing configuration and were not compatible with bad weather operation. He predicted that the F-104 was likely to suffer a high accident rate in operation.
Ok, that may be a bit harsh:
However, the high rate of crashes while in Luftwaffe service could be blamed more on the hazards of flying low-altitude missions at high speeds in the bad weather of Northern Europe than on any intrinsic flaw with the F-104G.
However:
Nevertheless, some of the Luftwaffe crashes could indeed be traced to technical problems with the F-104G itself. Engine problems, including difficulties with the J79's variable afterburner nozzle, and contamination of the Starfighter's liquid oxygen system causing loss of consciousness of the pilot were listed as contributing factors in some of the accidents. There were also problems with the automatic pitch-up limiter during high-speed low-altitude flying and in tight turns, resulting in its temporary removal, with accompanying restrictions on the maneuverability.
To say the least, it was a controversial aircraft (German press nicknamed it "The Widowmaker"). Incedently, it is one of the few aircraft (only?) to ever be fitted with a downward firing ejection seat, though that was retrofitted later on (probbably with a zero-zero seat of some kind). The engines were troublesome at first - the variable nozzles would get stuck in the full open position, killing all thrust in non afterburner mode.
Anyway, it wasn't a really sucessful plane domestically, though they sold a lot overseas.
I'm not sure how fair it is to be critical of it's safety recod. Most early jet aircraft had pretty aweful records, as there was virtually no operational experience, and not much practical design experience to work with.
Incedently, it is one of the few aircraft (only?) to ever be fitted with a downward firing ejection seat, though that was retrofitted later on (probbably with a zero-zero seat of some kind).
The B-52 has some and the F-104's seat (installed in the interest of space and weight) was changed early in production (I think only the A and B models had them). The F-104 was one of the first non-delta Mach 2 fighters and is routienly listed in "World's Geatest Aircraft" type books. I believe it even set some speed and/or altitude records.
Yes is was a challenging aircraft to fly, but nothing a well trained pilot coudln't handle in its intended mission as a theatre interceptor. I will never know how it turned into the F-5 like export fighter of choice.
Yes is was a challenging aircraft to fly, but nothing a well trained pilot coudln't handle in its intended mission as a theatre interceptor.
It did manage to kill over 60 German pilots. I guess they just weren't well trained.
I will never know how it turned into the F-5 like export fighter of choice.
Possibly to spare Lockeed product liability suits under US law?
I believe that the Germans used around 1000 F-104 well into the 80's so it's not like half of them crashed or anything (89 was the total I recall). Heck, Italy might still be using its F-104's so for a fighter designed in 1952 a 40+ year operational lifespan isn't bad. They are like the Redbirds of the military aviation world.
Anyway, the F-104 was designed to stop ememy planes. How it was marketed as a multi-role fighter I'll never know. I blame the accidents on poor marketing, not poor engineering.
Slightly less than 30% of the total force was lost due to accidents (270 planes), with about 110 deaths. In reality, the death rate was only a bit higher than everyone elses, but it was high by standards back then, and certainly high by modern standards.
The Canadians lost about 46% of their fleet, however, their planes had about 3X the amount of time on them when retired. I'm not sure if the losses were acidents, or failure of the planes. The F-104's test phase wasn't very smooth, and quite a number of aircraft were written off. Of course, the F-14's test phase was equally a disaster, and yet the plane has been very sucessful.
Had the F-104's export market not been as large, the plane would have been a footnote in history. It's poor slow speed manuverability, and lack of all weather capeability, made it a poor fighter. It also had limited distance, and was a bear to maintain.
It's interesting to note that most modern fighters do not have Mach 2 capeability, as it is very difficult to design*, and pretty much worthless anyway**. The trend has been more and more towards supermanuverability, as evidenced by the F-22, JSF, and that forward swept wing fighter Sukoi was testing a while back.
*I won't go there, it's really bizzare.
**A minute or two of Mach 2 dashing is about all you can get anyway, before you either run out of fuel or waste the engines.
Slightly less than 30% of the total force was lost due to accidents (270 planes), with about 110 deaths.
I guess that's what I get for using a Great Aircraft of the World book that was dated 1986.
Anyway you need to look at the F-104 in context of 1952 when it was designed. Back in 1952 that plane was hot shit with wings.
It's poor slow speed manuverability.
Interceptors don't need slow sleed maneverability.
It's interesting to note that most modern fighters do not have Mach 2 capeability, as it is very difficult to design*, and pretty much worthless anyway**.
Worthles until you have another hijacked jetliner on a collision course with something. That is the whole reason to have interceptors. You point them in a line and they GO like a pig on fire to shoot down that incomming hostile. Our country is getting used to fighting wars that don't involve incomming aircraft. When you're over Boston and they are attacking New York you need to get there yesterday.
I think we should bring back inexpensive point defence interceptors like the Me 163 or the Ba 343. You could mount them on top of tall buildings. They bring the concept of disposable rocket launchers and SAM's to aircraft.
BLOOMY IS A BIG MISTAKE. YOU WILL FEEL HIM LATER IN THE YEARS TO COME
And, of course, Mark Green was the answer to a maiden's prayer. Come off it, the guy is a big blowhard and Democratic New York City knew it.
yeah ok. just fasten your seatbelts because this gonna be a bumby term.
So was Bloomberg until a couple months ago, said the Post
Mike, Mach Two capeability is worthless because you can't sustain those speeds for much more than a minute, before the plane runs out of fuel!!!
At full afterburner, most millitary engines draw 3 or more times the full military power's fuel consumption. Since fighters have crap fuel capacity to begin with, this leads to a big problem real fast. There is only *one* engine in the world that's even capeable of withstanding full afterburner operation for more than a few minutes anyway, and that's the Pratt and Whitney J-58. And it's a ^&^%&$% huge engine, and primative as hell. Well, antique is more like it.
Anyway, there's a lot of technical problems with just getting engines to work at those speeds, and avoiding compressor stalls from various transients. They need all sorts of variable geometry inlets, and convergent-divergent nozzels.
The capeability was great when everyone was obsessed with top speed as a determining factor in a plane's worth, but the reality is that superagility and all weather capacity far outweighs the ability to dash at high speeds for a few minutes.
Mike, Mach Two capeability is worthless because you can't sustain those speeds for much more than a minute, before the plane runs out of fuel!!!
That is a gross overstatement and you know it! The Su-7, the fighter with the dubious destinction of having the worst fuel economy/capacity in the world, can last 7 minutes on full afterburner. Modern turbo-fanned jets with half a lick worth of internal fuel and disposable tanks have an impressive endurance at full afterburner. There is a role for both hi-speed and highly maneuverable aircraft. Besides, hi speed is needed to avoid AAA fire as well as manpack SAMS.
Beats me mike, I heard it from the guys who design those planes. I'd think they'd know the capeability more than anyone else....
Remember, too, you need fuel to get home too!
(BTW, the fighter jock friend of my dad's says the F-16's *absolute* limit for A/B operation is about 4 minutes)
You're more likley to see a 2nd Ave Limosineway.
Remember Bloomberg's "air travel" comment: The worst thing about flying is having to pass through Queens to get to or from the airports.
Given that, my guess is that he MIGHT support some form of subway under Second Avenue - as long as ONLY Manhattanites get to benefit from it. In other words: NO allowance for a Bronx extension, NO connection to the Broadway BMT, and NO transfers to/from other lines.
Given that, my guess is that he MIGHT support some form of subway under Second Avenue - as long as ONLY Manhattanites get to benefit from it.
Lots and lots of Republicans live out in the boroughs. I don't know what Bloomberg's future political aspirations are, but ignoring the needs of the outer boroughs is a path to political oblivion.
Having said that, it sucks generally to get to the airports, from whatever borough you live in.
The 2nd Ave would be a colossally expensive ten-year hole in the ground. It's not gonna get finished in whichever Mayor's or other politician's term of office it gets started.
Ultimately, if it gets built it will because the real estate interests will become frightened that all those enormous buildings will become white elephants because everyone is moving out to the 'burbs.
Well once JFK Air train is built it will be non-stop between Jamaica and JFK. The whole LIRR-Airtrain station is going to look very nice, at least from what I've seen in the drawings. I don't fly, but whenever I take the A to Far Rockaway I see these people lugging this heavy luggage up and down. I'd opt for the car service now. And the bus from Jamaica, all I can say is yuck! Once Airtrain is built it will help JFK and Jamaica.
Its not just the lack of funds that have delayed the construction of a Second Avenue Subway; divisiveness has plays a major roll too. The attitude that a Second Avenue line is not needed because it doesnt go through ones neighborhood is purely individualistic and fails to consider the City as a whole. We are a society, not just a collection of individuals. I really tire of that anti-Manhattan attitude.
Bronx residents will benefit indirectly from any degree of construction of a Second Avenue subway in Manhattan. Remember, the purpose of the 2nd Avenue line is to reduce crush load crowding on the Lexington Avenue IRT. Doesnt crowding affects those boarding a train, as well as those passengers who already happen to be on board? Of course. Even a limited 2nd Avenue subway (one that runs from 63rd Street to 125th) will siphon boarding riders away from the Lexington Avenue in that region.
The Lexington Avenue line already runs in an awkward location. Based on the ridership demographics of the region, the vast majority of those using the line reside only to the east of the right-of-way. It is highly probable that many will board a Second Avenue line instead.
The logic for how a 2nd Avenue line will indirectly affect those in out boroughs is a little more complex, and beyond the scope of this post. In short, those transfers that are feasible will get built, and help redistribute riders accordingly.
I am not opposed to a Bronx extension of the Second Avenue line. In fact, I believe quite the opposite. I have argues in the past on this board that the station at 125th Street should be oriented North-South as the MTA planned, so as not to preclude further extension under the Harlem River.
However, with limited funds and the location of existing tunnel, by far and away the most logical place to begin construction is at 63rd Street and work Northward. You have tunnel segments in place north of 99th Street, and the connection to the Broadway BMT at 63rd Street, which create an interim full-length line.
MATT-2AV
The Lexington Avenue line already runs in an awkward location. Based on the ridership demographics of the region, the vast majority of those using the line reside only to the east of the right-of-way.
Many, yes, but a "vast majority?" I don't understand how the ridership demographics could lead to such a conclusion.
I'm sorry, Peter, I was writing in a hurry. Permit me to rephrase:
Of Manhattan commuters who use the Lexington Avenue line, the majority of those commuters reside East of the ROW.
This information comes from the original planning study, although I don't recall what the percentage is, and I couldn't find the link. Because I can't state the actual percentage, I will replace "vast majority" with just "majority".
For a non-scientific verification, disembark an uptown train at East 86th during the evening rush, and watch which direction the majority of the people walk.
MATT-2AV
(Of Manhattan commuters who use the Lexington Avenue line, the majority of those commuters reside East of the ROW.)
Explanation: the super rich on Park and Fifth Avenues don't ride the subway. The Yuppies on 3rd, 2nd, 1st and York do. Moreover, while not part of the CBD, the Upper East Side has a large employment base -- hospitals, universities, stores. Most of that is East of the Lex also.
Hey,
Who you calling a Yuppie?
MATT-"if the shoe fits"-2AV ;o)
Explanation: Most of the East side is located east of Lexington, not west of it. The density on the west side of Lexington would really have to be much larger than that of its east side in order to have more people come from the west.
Where Does Bloomy Stand on the 2d Ave Subway?
He doesnt stand on a subway, he sits in a limo.
Why is there no express service on the 1/2 (West Side IRT) northbound between Chambers Street and 14th Street? Why are all riders subjected to the local stops?
lack of crosstrack switchover capability at Chambers???
Step one: Due to the placement of crossovers between southbound and northbound tracks, southbound trains can terminate at only the following points along the four-track 7th Avenue line: 96th Street, 42nd Street, 34th Street, 14th Street, and Chambers Street. All crossovers are between the express tracks.
Step two: Except at night, through service cannot operate on the same track used by a turning train.
Step three: There is an extra track between the express tracks south of 42nd Street that can be used to relay turning trains. Elsewhere, there is no choice but to turn trains in-station on one of the through express tracks.
Step four: The local tracks at Chambers Street are out of service as they lead directly to Cortlandt Street. All trains to Brooklyn must use the express tracks.
Step five: Of the three 7th Avenue services, no more than two can be assigned to the same section of track.
Put these together and you'll see the problem. If the 3 terminated at Chambers, it would have to turn on the same tracks used by through 1 and 2 trains, which isn't an option.
That leaves us with two choices: (1) Terminate one express service at 96th, 34th, or 14th; all through service must pass by on the local track. (2) Terminate one express service at 42nd; through service may use both the local and express tracks.
The TA opted for choice (1) (wisely, IMO).
Northbound 2s could run express w/o interfereing with the 3. Southbound, they could run express with the 3 until 42nd, then switch local. The reason I suggest this is that people going from Brooklyn to the Bronx (and back) are now inclined to use the Lex lines. And, people who need to go from Bronx to Lower Manhattan will prefer the Lex. West side express service is vital!
The northbound 2 could run express straight through, but that's a recipe for confusion.
Sure, the southbound 2 could use the express tracks to 42nd. That would send it skipping right by some of the busiest stations in the system while obediently making every lesser-used local stop downtown.
My local station, according to the 1999 numbers, is the 55th busiest station in the system (it's a local station in a residential area). Don't you think it should have somewhat more service than the one ranked 214th? Yet before 9/11, number 55 had less service than number 214 (since many rush hour 1/9 trains bypassed 86th Street while I don't think bypassing 181st Street was common). Virtually every other Manhattan local splits into two different services once past the busier central stations -- the B/C, the C/E, the N/R, the F/S, the JZ/M, the 6/6, the 7/7. My station alone has 50% greater ridership than the entire Dyre Avenue branch. Yet you think I should stand on the platform 2-3 times as long for a train so a handful of Bronx-to-Brooklyn riders who apparently aren't in a great rush (since the 4/5 is faster regardless) can save eight minutes while seated (most likely) in a climate-controlled car?
Either the 2 (or 3 -- I don't care) should remain a permanent local or the TA should find some other way to boost local service around here. Express service is a nice frill but locals are more versatile.
I saw a southbound 2 train about to pull into 34th St. on the express track when it switched over just before the station. And it was a Redbird train to boot! The marker lights gave it away. It would have been fun, but I understood.
I also saw a northbound R-142 2 train pull into 14th St. on the express track. Some 2 trains do run express. Very few.
Just the other day I decided to see the 7th Av. service for myself, and then catch the L at 14th. At Times Sq an R-62 pulls up, but it has @ in the front, but half of the side signs are set for 3 All of the side signs have #3 destinations, but half are 2 and half 3. It runs express to 14th, and then says it will continue to Brooklyn. Next, a #3 pulls in and terminates.
The problem is that now that everyone needs to be on the local trains, where previously people were better distributed between local and express service. The other problem is that broadway service north of 96th is mucho crappy now. I've never seen a rush hour 1 train that wasn't jam packed. You practically can't get on an uptown 1 at 96th in the evening rush.
My suggestion: run the 9 local on broadway, express south of 96, and turn it around at 14th, send it back. Maybe just as a rush hour service. Run as many as you have demand for. Yay, more broadway local trains, more express 7th ave! Of course, then there is a wild ballet happening on the 96th street switches. (Maybe this has been suggested already, I don't read here as much as I'd like to)
You could also try something nutty like 2-diamond service running from the bronx to 14th, that maybe would push some people off the local tracks.
How well are the 1&2 trains matching their demand in Brooklyn?
The busiest 1 stations are between 96th and 34th, not north of 96th. See posts 276490, 276535, and 276621 in the archives.
On 11/05/01, I saw an empty train of R143 on the Eight Avenue line passing through the northbound express platform at West 4th Street. I suppose they'll be up and about and running soon. I'm looking forward to riding one.
Are you sure it was the R143? That same day around lunch time I saw the empty R110B train going through Jay Street on the A line into Manhattan. At first I, too, thought I was seeing the R143, but the seats were criss-cross style, and the last car number was, if I remember correctly, 3006. None of the side signs were lit up.
If you saw 3000-series, it was the R110B (R131). If it was 8000-series, then it was the R143.
wayne
Was it that, or an R-110B?
the 110b.last time i saw it looked nothing like a r143
You are correct. The 143 has all digital signs with larger head and marker lights than the 110B which has a standard curtain roll sign up front and has smaller head and marker lights. Note the interiors on each one are different.
Comparison:
R143
R110B (R131)
Glad you decided to show the differences for the others who did not know between these cars.
Thanks
Neil E. Feldman
NNEILEF@AOL.COM
I love the R32's (Brightliners). The TA should keep them as long as possible. I wonder if they will ever be remanufactured with updated technology, but with R143's coming that's highly unlikely. The R44/R46's and R68's are favorable because they have ample space. All the redbird cars--R26, R29, R33, R36--I like; they really had defined the IRT over the last 40 years. Slowly but surely, they're disappearing and R142's are taking over. They should've had manufactured updated models of these cars. Lastly, the retired R27/R30 cars looked greated aesthetically; too bad the last one was gone by 1993.
r10 and r22
When I was a kid: R30--being able to move in between cars on the Brighton Local is a none-too-far memory :(
Now: R142 and soon to be R143
Stuart, RLine86Man
THE BMT TRIPLEX and Sea beach Fred would agree
Me Too!
Nothing built before or since compares with the good old D-Types on the Brighton Express!
-- Ed Sachs
The Triplex without any doubt in the world. Someday, someday, I am going to ride a Triplex #4 Sea Beach out to Coney Island. I have got to do that once again.
Would love to join you, as long it is on the Brighton, since the Slow Beach only goes to 86th Street
Brighton will be next to get the cut back. The only one to serve Stillwell will be the West End....#3, I believe.
Yea, right on Bob. The Bob and Fred show is back and moving as strong as a #1 Brighton Exp Triplex.
Their banter reminds me of a morning show we have in Denver. There are two personalities who have been on the air together for 11 years now, and when the former producer was still around, these two would start arguing about something. Finally, the producer would cut in and yell, "WILL YOU SHUT UP?!?" Both would start mumbling, at which point the producer would say, "Get on with the show, for God's sake." I think it was all an act.
Should of heard us on the subwAY
Maybe when we retire Bob we can move to New York for awhile and see if we can't get a talk show going, the Bob and Fred. Fred and Bob, the Transit Show, something. We seem to entertain a lot of people here and maybe we could unite all railfans and spread the word just what a classy bunch the whole lot of us are.
It should be called "The Brighton and Slow Beach Show".
Fred would never leave the shelter of his upper Middle Class town Arcadia to go to NYC. Too many poor people
Why don't you tell them the truth that on a few major issues I'm the liberal and you're the Conservative. Go ahead. Be honest. Forget for a moment that you are a Clinton clone. The truth shall set you free.
Clinton was the lesser of 2 evils in 92 and again in 96. I do like some Republicans like Sen McCain. I just can t stand the extreme Right Born Again trying to tell anyone what they can do with their bodies, well I will not go into it here. This is not the place
One can broadcast from distant points and re-transmit. Still, I think my title for the show is the best.
Maybe
I would name it Odd Couple 2001
Which one of you would be Felix?
Probably Me,
Do you ever go, "HMAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!!"?:-)
Actually, you should have been with us during our Oct. 25 expedition. We were on a slant diamond Q, hauling ass on the Brighton, and as we blew past a Q local, we'd yell, "Hi!', then "Bye!", waving all the way. Not to mention, "So long, screwy. See you in St. Louis!" Even the T/O got into it. It was a blast, especially when he kept the juice going on that little jog in the express track between 8th St. and Union Square.
You had to be there.
I was there a week to soon, I went up for the Croton Open House, or was it that weekend. My CRS is getting worse
Well Bob, I'll get "Go N Train", "N Broadway Line", "Sea Beach Express", and together we will commmandere the train and ride it into Stillwell. If not, then I can take the Brighton instead. But no damn D or Q or anything like that. It has to be a #1. OK?
I will join you, as long as it is on a Triplex, Maybe invite 8th Ave Steve, to see what a real subway train looks like
Hey, I'm game. I'm DYING to ride on a Triplex!
wE JUST HAVE TO FIND OUT WAY IN ADVANCE WHEN THE MUSEUM WILL HAVE A FAN TRIP AND COME TO NYC FOR A WEEKEND
Steve8AVEXP, #1 Brighton Express Bob, and #4 Sea Beach Fred on the same train? Wow!!! All we have to do is get #3 West End Jeff and a few other hellraisers on board and we'll really be in the tall cotton. Just to make sure everyone behaves themselves, we'll have to get Train Dude in the front car to keep everyone in line.
We'd get thrown off for creating a disturbance.:-)
We would have to Bring Sarge Rosen for Protection
That's the biggie: timing.
"But no damn D or Q...." Watch it Fred. You have Q friends here. As for me, Q Brightliners were the best, but I admit, I just missed the #1 Triplexes by a few months. From the descriptions of Bob and yourself, too bad for me.
Try being in the city when they were still running and not seeing them.
I'd love to join you guys for a ride on a Triplex, too, but it seems that the outings are few and far between.
Well Q, then we must include you in our entourage. You would love th Triplex, and to give us old warhorses our due, let us relive our youth and ride on the #1 or #4 BMT cars. You would never see a bunch of senior citizens acting more like a bunch of kids than any you might have seen before.
Fred, I'd love to join you and #1 Brighton Exp Bob and Steve B 8th Av Exp on such a journey. And I agree that having Train Dude along would help us ensure that we behave like mature adults instead of kids enthusiastically engaged in their hobby. But those outings are few and far between and my journey to get to NYC is a quite a bit farther than California, so I have to plan WAY ahead of time.
Web all have to plan way ahead of time for the best airfares
Whoh, Whoh Q. Farther than California. Where the hell do you live? London? Just exactly do you hail from anyway?
I'd love to join you on a fantrip on those gentle behemoths someday.
Pick a time, but Fred has to do 3 things. Go to Coney island, and ride the cyclone, eat at Nathans, and walk to 86th St to catch his N train since it don t go to Coney any more, and 4 eat dinner in Little Italy
That is exactly right Bob. Get that Steve? That is my idea of a perfect day in New York. It doesn't take a lot of fancy things to make me content, those four things will suffice. However, since I am a morning person, an early rise, some pushups and stomach crunches, and a walk in Central Park will get the energy and blood moving for the rest of that fine day. I would really love to get a group of railfans together and do that. Last April 1, Doug Wengeroff organized such a trip and it was a blast. I had as much fun as I have had in any other day I can remember since I was a kid. Reprise? Yes, sir.
I m hurt, you did not have any fun when we went.??? I know the IRT thru the Bronx bored you
As much Bob, as much, not more or less. Yes, for a week the two of us had a real blast. What I was saying that I never had as much fun for one day than April 1. Hell, if I could make it a week of riding the rails with my railfan buddies and watch them gape as you and I traded barbs with the Sea Beach and Brighton, then it would make everyone's day----err week.
Ever been to Taormina's on Mulberry St.?
Why not Steve, 8AVEXP, there's always room for one more. And you can add a little class to us grizzled veterans, and play peacemaker when Bob and I go at it with our Sea Beach vs Brighton diatribes.
Just no right wing Republican Bull
Fine--just as long as you refrain from givng me the socialist Democratic left wing crap as well. No politics.
Ja vol mein Kamaraden
Please Bob. I'm beginning to think Heinrich is going to rise from hell and start me marching to his tune. Jawol Kamoraden? Yuk!!!!!!
I'll be ROTFLMAO.:-)
More Republican vs Demos.,
I've been reading the favorites nominations for a few days and decided to add my token's worth.
My all-time favorites (though I grew up mostly with BMT Standards, Triplexes, IRT Lo-Vs, and PCC cars) are the Compartment cars (also known as 'Bluebirds'), absolutely the finest rolling stock ever to run in the City, if not the country. Mohair seats, picture windows, great railfan seats, red tile floors, mirrors on either side of the articulation joints, PCC lighting.
Externally, the Zephyr was beautiful; I never saw the inside although I saw it for several years stored on the Fulton elevated just east of Atlantic Avenue (ENY) station.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the R-11; if nothing else, the back-lit gold IND Division map was unusual and the exterior and round windows gave it a nice look. .
Others have mentioned the R-15 in original maroon and silver-grey livery, with its round windows in the bulkhead and side doors; of all IRT cars, it was probably the handsomest.
Of more modern cars, I like the R-62, R-68 and R-68a, though I'd like their ends a bit less rounded and it would be nice to see route and destination signs on the end again.
Biggest problem I have with cars from the 1960s on is the stone-hard seating and the slipping and sliding that comes from that modern version of early 1900s wooden seating.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I would also like to see the bulkhead destination signs brought back. That Triplex innovation was a great idea and I have not heard a single explanation as to why they were discontinued on the post-R38 rolling stock.
I must say that my favorite is the BMT Bluebird, although I only know it through pictures and books. Of the cars I actually rode in, the D-Type Triplex is my all time favorite - never to be forgotten - with the BMT Standard a close second.
Nothing that followed has any aesthetic appeal to me.
I'm with you - Triplexes and Standards (Q cars too!)
I know Hot Lunch would agree with you in a heartbeat.
Also the Gate Cars on the Myrtle
Those are Karl B's favorite cars, although he'd vote for the Lex elevated.
I don tremember riding the lex El, but remember the Moitle L
I saw a train of Q cars on the Myrt once, from the railfan window of a QJ train at the Myrtle Ave. station. I thought, whoa, those cars look different.
The Q s had one hell of a history
Yes, indeed.
I liked the Lex and Myrtle both!
It was pretty nice riding the BU's all the way out to 111th St too! That meant riding on Broadway, Fulton St, Crescent St & Jamaica Ave.
That was over 50 years ago, you must be older then Fred
I am more than five years older than Fred.
He was very disappointed when he found out he wasn't the "old man" on the board.
So Karl, how was the York meet? Do you by any chance know a fellow named Bill Parr from Langhorne? I bought a bunch of stuff from him a few years ago. You can email me privately if you wish.
York was apparently the biggest yet. 14,000 members and 3,000 tables from preregistration alone. We were so busy with at-the-door registration that I got very little time to walk around. I did not personally find a "treasure", but talked to several friends who did.
I got the impression from others that while there was a lot of stuff there, people seemed to have cut back their buying. I heard that some of the recent stuff from both MTH and Lionel was available at blow-out prices.
There was additional security evident because of the national situation, and some unusual restrictions on food. I mentioned this on Harry's board and it started a monstrous thread that really went overboard so I better not bring it up again.
Even though I worked a lot, I still enjoyed myself, but I always do.
Yes I was Karl. How did you ever know? I wanted to be the "Dean", so to speak. But since you're an ok guy I will be more than happy to be the assistant "Dean" if it's ok with you.
I'll defer to you as far as being "Dean" because I'm on too little to know what all is going on and you definately are more qualified.
I'll just sit back in my rocking chair with my Geritol and observe, OK?
Ok!!! Since you are abdicating this title, I am now #4 Sea Beach Fred, the Dean of Subtalk. I kind of like the title, but if you decide to get more active I will be more than glad to step aside. However, I will not change my handle to be known as the Dean. I will hope others will just acknowledge it. Really it is a hollow title so no one should get too bent out of shape over it.
Bring on the Onion Juice
I'll defer to you as far as being "Dean" because I'm on too little to know what all is going on and you definately are more qualified.
I'll just sit back in my rocking chair with my Geritol and observe, OK?
Steve,
Right you are! Nothing beat those ABs and D-types. My only complaint with the D-types (sorry Fred)was/is that the cross seats are so tight up against each other, not leaving much leg room, while the ABs seating made it feel like you were in a living room!
Sure do miss them both, but there is hope: those Kawasaki 142s make some wonderful sounds, both accelerating and braking (not so the Bombardier 142s) Right behind the R32s , they are my favorite present running stock, even if they are IRT.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
You must have been on an eating spree because I haven't seen you online here in a dog's age. Maybe we should call you the Hot Lunch Trencherman. Anyway, good to know you are contributing again.
"I love the R32's (Brightliners). The TA should keep them as long as possible"
Your comment is a statement of the obvious - from a non-railfan point of view. The TA seeks to operate every piece of equipment for as long as it's economicly feasible and safe to do so. They don't make decisions based on railfan concerns.
The R-32 is still a very sound railcar - structurally and mechanically. You can expect it to survive at least one additional Heavy SMS (12 year overhaul).
Barring a catastrophe, the R-32s are a slam dunk to make it to 50 years.
Favorite of the past was R-15. As a child I loved the round windows in the door and the fact that it was low enough for a youngster to look out of as well as the round rail fan window and curved roof. All the rounding made it look smoother than the R-14's.
Favorite of the present R40----loved the slant. Made it look futuristic.
The R-44 has the nicest lines, but it was much prettier with its blue band. My favorite cars to ride were the R36WF's before the overhaul. And of course, they looked much prettier in blue.
My favorite subway cars of PAST have to be the MS (MultiSection), the R-6-2, the R10 and the R16. Honorable mention is the R21.
Present day: Why, the Slant R40 of course.
wayne
All-time favorite: tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s. Honorable mention: the R-32s as delivered from Budd (blue doors, bulkhead roller curtains, green backlit side destination signs). I'm sure I'd also cast a vote for the Triplexes, had I ever ridden on them regularly.
Today: R-32s, R-38s, slants, Redbirds.
What would you know, you live in Denver, The Fred and Bob show now turn to Denver
How would I know what? I became immersed in the subway when we moved to Jersey and I started attending Saturday school in Brooklyn. As I mentioned before I just missed out on the Triplexes in 1965 when we were in the city during their final week of service. I did ride on the BMT standards for two years, but didn't care for them then.
You missed the point, time Fred and I pick on someone else beside each other, and you lost. My favorite IRT car was the R-15, especially when they were the 2 tone maroon and white on the 7 Line
I really like Toronto's T1 cars, I think just because I like the color of brushed aluminum. For some strange reason I also like the old Kawasakis on the Broad Street Subway here in Philadelphia. I got a chance to ride Atlanta's newest MARTA cars recently, and I like those a lot, too.
Mark
Favorite subway car. Why the Brightliners, obviously. With the original bulkheads, colors, and yes, straps, thank you!
On purely subjective grounds:
R38
R40s
R42
R62A
R142A
I've only been riding since the 1980's, so the only retired cars I remember are the R10, R27 and R30. All were poorly ventilated garbage by that time, though aparently the R10 had a proud history before then.
:-) Andrew
Too bad you never got to experience an R-10 express dash up CPW. It was second to none.
Since the only times I rode the Central Park W route was to either go to Yankee Stadium or to the bus connection for Yonkers Raceway at Bedford Pk Blvd I always took the "D" so mostly took R1-9's instead of R10's. They were definitely an experiance too, shaking side to side with that brake thing up front clanging back & forth.
By the way, it was also an experiance waiting at one of the CPW local stations when the express went through. As a kid that was one of my favorite parts of going to the Museum of Nat History. If our local train came in first before an express went through I really felt cheated!!!
By far my favorite car was the R1-9's. I loved the looks, (a handsome car) the sounds,(compressor & brakes) and even the distinct smell. As a kid I always dreamed of driving one and I finally got the chance with 1689 at Branford last month compliments of Jeff H. and a membership. A dream come true.
Of course I also loved the BMT Standards. When I found out they were still on the 14th Street Canarsie Line in the late 60's I railfanned that line many times just to ride em. The seating arrangements were the best of any train. But I still have to give the edge to the R1-9's.
fave present: R46
fave past: R16
fave i never rode: BMT B-types
BMT D's. The Triplexes were the greatest, a superb train. What a powerful load.
I can only relate to these car types as a visitor to the TA museum, sitting on the cars on display. Never rode them in motion.
Well then Chris, you can just take my word for it. The Triplex was quite a ride.
You're just saying that, Fred. You liked the D types because they ran on the Sea Beach.
You know that the best model subway car ever to operate in New York was the R-10!
Yep, those Thunderbirds were second to none except for perhaps the R-1/9s. The way they smoked along CPW made you feel they were invincible. Too bad they didn't keep their teal-and-white racing stripe scheme longer.
The R 10 was a piece of junk, small fans, very hot in the summer, the only thing that was good for them was their speed up CPW, but any train that could do 40mph+ was speedy. The Triplex were great.
Not to blaspheme my buddy Steve, but the single most objectionable thing about the R10's was that they were perennially flat-wheeled and made enough noise to wake the dead when they were running. R1/9's were a bit more tolerable with flats in that they sounded more like the clop-clop-clop of a horse. The R10's though made such a racket, the "ta" was perennially trying to develop "noise abatement" and failing miserably at it. I can only imagine what they must have sounded like on an el. :)
When you rode on as many A trains as I did, the R-10s kind of get to you after a while. I didn't go into the city very often during the summer; my Saturday commuting was during the school year; i. e., fall, winter, and spring. I never felt uncomfortably warm on those immortal speedsters, nor were they excessively loud back then.
The R10's were the best, especially when they were used on the H Shuttle and C line to Rockaway Park, and were cleaned up in their green color at the end. It was always great to here them speed out on the Rockaway line with all the windows open and doors between cars open.
To me, they will forever be synonimous with the A. Talk about a tailor-made subway car for that line - the R-10 was it!
Ever ride a non-GOH (not green) R10 in the summer thru the Cranberry St. tube. None of those tiny fans worked, the doors were latched open, and the ears-shattering din made your ears rung for hours. Thank god they were scrapped. Sorry, Mr, Padron ...
Ever ride a non-GOH (not green) R10 in the summer thru the Cranberry St. tube in their final days? None of those tiny fans worked, the doors were latched open, and the ears-shattering din made your ears ring for hours. Thank god they were scrapped. Sorry, Mr, Padron ...
I rarely rode the A Train, but when I did I just enduredit
You endured it because you were getting the best ride on the entire system if you were on an R-10.
They honestly weren't so bad 30+ years ago. I never had to hold my ears while ripping past station after station along CPW. Chicago OTOH was a whole different story. The R-10s were quiet as mice compared to an ear-shattering run along the State or Dearborn St. subways.
When I went back to New York for the first time in 20 years back in 1974, the first train I rode on was the A. I was staying for a few days in hotel near Kennedy and bussed to Lefferts where I was shocked to see an elevated IND train. Apparently just after I left New York they extended the A from Euclid to Lefferts. I had been under the impression that only the G and F of all the IND lines ever made to the great outdoors, and only for one and two stops respectively, Smith and 9th St, and 4th Avenue. It was a surprise, but after that I saw nothing about the A that made stand up and take notice. I couldn't wait to take the #4 Sea Beach when I got another surprise and found out that is was now the N train.
Heh. Shouldn't have surprised you THAT much to see an IND line on an elevated - it ran on the old BMT Fulton el ... so relax, boobie ... your memories of the IND being a line that ran in the sewer remains intact - it was running on a commandeered el ...
In fact all of the IND L Service was originally BMT or LIRR, except the short portion on the F/G
Nothing about the A made you stand up and notice? Not even the sheer brute speed of the R-10s which were still dominating that line then?:-)
Back in 1967, the R-10s were sporting a teal-and-white racing stripe scheme, which is still my all-time favorite. Their speed, especially along CPW, got my attention.
Of course, before all that, the R-32s on the N were a sight to behold.
Noiest cars I ever heard are on the T in Boston, even last year with new equipment on the blue and red lines, so much screaching and screeming around curves, and stopping
I guarantee Wayne would love that. Screeching wheels on curves are music to his ears.:-)
I was a kid then and the A was fast, but all underground. I usually went to Dyckman Street to Visit Family(Thius was the 50s) and found the 7th Ave Express was faster, and went out side at 125th. I used to love to look out from 168 at the Portal at Dykman Street, and watch it become bigger and bigger.. Also in able to me to get to the A I had to take 3 trains from Kings Hwy and E 16th.
We had about 30 R-10's over on the Jamaica BMT in 1953/54. They were there to familiarize BMT crews for the pending arrival of the R-16's. They did very well on the el, and I don't remember hearing a single flatwheel in those days.
Then they were only 5-7 years old.
The 60-foot length and SMEE braking were understandable. The outboard door controls weren't, as the R-16s had door controls in the cabs.
I often wondered how the BMT conductors liked climbing out between cars on the R-10's on the els in the winter.
Can you imagine a wintry snowy day at Crescent St going east. I'll bet that he would close the doors, and get down fast before that sharp turn.
>>> I often wondered how the BMT conductors liked climbing out between cars on the R-10's on the els in the winter. <<<
That was the job back then when both the trains and those who ran them had much more steel in their bodies. I imagine some of the motorman's cabs could get pretty chilly back then also.
Tom
My uncle did it for 20 years on the Brighton Triplex, They just dressed very warmly. He said it was worse in the blizzards of 47 and 56
Grab irons were your friend. That's also why conductors were referred to as "car monkeys" back then. The job was everything you expected. That's why I hated the Brooklyn portion of the D train on R1/9's but it wasn't bad at all once you got across that stupid bridge and into the tunnels where it belonged. :)
If the step plates picked up ice and snow while the car was on the el, I bet they continued to be a problem in the subway.
True, but you wore boots if you had anything between the ears and you'd kick it off once you got "inside" ... usually one side of the car would have a bit more accumulation than the other side and in all sincerity, those foot irons were wider than they look. You just had to be careful and believe me, you WERE ... the old cars had grabirons wherever you needed them to be nice and sure footed.
Even when I lost a footplate, didn't come close to falling off though we had to sit for a few minutes while I relocated position for the rest of that trip.
My shoes fit nicely on those step plates when I assumed the position between 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum. All I needed to really fit in was a conductor's uniform.
Heh. Pity monkey suits are a "controlled substance" ... back in 1970 they were actually pretty snazzy for the time. The blue shirt especially and a nice LIRR style cap. The chickies loved it.
The R1/9s belonged underground. They should have never let them on the post-Chrystie D train.
They ran on the D Culver from 1954-67 pre Christie
And he probably muttered, "Gimme back my BMT standards". Those conductors had it made on the standards - nice and cozy, with the door controls inside.
As a kid I thought it was a wonderous thing that he could press one button and open the doors of all six cars. If they all worked, he was opening 36 doors with one button. I soon figured out that he was using three different buttons to close the same doors. If I couldn't get a job as a gateman maybe I could get a job as a conductor on the Standards. I was really young and impressionable then.
No! I absolutley despised those horrible behemoths. Thankfully, by the time I got to ride them, they were never allowed out except for rush hour CC service!
I always wished they'd kept a set or two of them on the A. After 1977, they still made a cameo appearance there once in a while. I got one such train on the A around 1979 or 1980 and was in SMEE heaven. They held their own along CPW. For that day at least, those Thunderbirds were back where they belonged.
In my mind, the A will always be associated with the R44. I love those lemons ...
You know, the R-44's really aren't that bad. It's just that everybody automatically associates them with their original form, the one that really did suck. But nowadays, the cars give decent service.
I associate the R-44's with the A because they've always been on the A since I've been alive.
If I remember correctly when they 1st came out, the E and F Lines received them 1st. It seems back in the late 60s all new equipment went 1st to E and F
I remember riding my first r38 on the F Culver line in Brooklyn when they first came out, when I was a little kid. The thing I remember was that the railfan window was higher off the floor that on the r9's and I couldn't reach it unless I stood up on my toes. I wound up mostly looking through the keyhole and getting windburn on my eyeball.
I used to tell my father (we would go from Kings Highway to Delancy street to his dentist on Saturdays, glad he needed lots of dental work) to wait for the "old" trains (didn't know what they were called back then.) I even remember when they switched the Culver line fron the D to the F even though I was about 3 years old then.
Then when the new r40's came out and I was able to see through the railfan window again.
That too was Ronan's doing - obsessed with the LIRR as his own personal toy, he felt that anything going to the city from his railroad also had to be the shiniest, newest and slickest ... except for the E of course. I guess he considered the F an extension of the Oyster Bay line. :)
And that's OK. The way things are going, the R-44s may stay on the A longer than the R-10s did.
Naaahhhhhhhhhhh.
The BMT standards? I rode on 'em on the Canarsie during their final years of service. Didn't like them then, have come to appreciate them now.
any railfan ( storm front dirct window ) equipped transit rail car will do
TO HELL WITH TRANSVERSE CABS !!!
Chicago's 4000 series cars, specifically 4251-4445, built by Cincinnati Car Company, affectionately known as "plushies".
but they are all ""OPTO"" now right ........>>>>>>.......railfan window gone !!!
CTA's 4000 series cars are all retired; none survived into the OPTO era. They were last used on the Evanston Express. Two cars were saved for the CTA's historical collection, 4271 and 4272, painted in the Chicago Rapid Transit orange and brown scheme. Rest assured that the railfan windows are intact.
Incidentally, I rode this equipment at the East Troy, Wisconsin museum this past summer, which brought back pleasant memories of Chicago some 25 years ago.
did any of them go the the illinois rail transit museum ???
The Illinois Railway Museum at Union, Illinois has five of these cars in its collection: 4146, 4290, 4321, 4410, and 4412, according to the museum web site's roster of equipment, at www.irm.org.
And there's a photo of a four-car train of them on the mainline! Hopefully I can get out there someday when they're running. Or when the Green Hornet is buzzing on the loop line.
The 4000s are popular when it comes to museums. IRM has at least four; Warehouse POint in Connecticut also has several. Shore Line has one - 4280. Those cars you mention all came with trolley poles, so they were basically ready-to-run when acquired by museums - assuming they were still in running condition.
I remember seeing the 4000s on the Evanston Express, but never rode on them. I could always tell when they went by; they had a distinct sound that was quite different from the 6000s.
Did anyone spot any new R142 deliveries while I was away? The delivery list needs some updating!
Thanks
Dave
I spotted 6726-6730 and 6711-6720 in East 180th Street Yard with "Test train - Not in service" signs taped to their windows. Also rode in car #6705 on the 2, so 6701-6705 are in service now. I thought I also spotted 6741-6745 at East 180th, but I'm not sure.
I believe I've seen several new 7400-numbered cars within the last week or so, fyi
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'd like to introduce myself as a new subtalker but have been reading the posts for almost the last year. Anyways..
I saw an R142A at the 33rd street station, I didn't get a glimpse of what other set it was coupled with, but R142A set 7511-7515 is in passenger service.
Lawrence
Saw R142's 6711-6720 on the 2 at 3rd Avenue earlier this evening. It made simulated stops (where the doors open on the opposite side of the platform). A few minutes later R142A's 7531-7540 went by. They were not in service, so I assume they were being transferred to the 6. Also saw 6736-6740 at East 180th Yard.
7511-7520 #6 were at Grand Central around 5 pm yesterday with passengers
7531-40 are definitely recent arrivals; they were still in Yonkers on October 20! (Photos)
I'll try to get it together for you a bit later if I can, but there's more equipment on the road.
-Stef
i spotted 6716-6720 on the drye test track one day last week along with them seen 6701-6705 in service
6711-6720 I see in service last Friday at Grand Army Plaza.
Ok R142'S
In Service 6666-6670 6696-6700 6701-6710 6711-6720
R142A's
In Service 7461-7465
the R-142's that were called out for breaking problems are being prepared for service. 6381-6390 left Concourse/jerome yards.
Don't hold your breath: door problems are locking out service!! Peter
Once great weakness to the J,M,Z lines is the fact that is 3 tracks for the most part and only 4 tracks in Manhattan, I think that a major investment should be made to a 4 track line in Brooklyn so that expresses can go from Jamaica Center to Broad Street instead of Skip Stop, also the J, and Z lines can run express through the main section once the M line joins at Myrtle Avenue. I think people can save time and it would take a significant amount of riders OFF the Queens Boulevard Lines.
the Z and J can both Terminate at Chambers Street
and the M can go to Bay Parkway
Simple, yes
expensive, yes
benifits, great
Is there space on the els to put the extra track in. When I was on the D-Types to the Dock trip in August, I went ahead over the Willy B to take pics at Marcy Avenue. There were people looking out the windows of the building near the station. They seemed pretty close. Don't think there is room to put in a 4th Track without widening the el, which may not be do-able.
Also with the Wily B under construction, the time to have planned and implemented your suggestion is long passed for at two generations.
A four-track el structure is too wide for the average New York street.
and having the J/Z terminater at Chambers is wacko,dude.Are you a Jline rider? If you are,then you know that wouldnt be a good idea...
Put it this way: I was a semiregular QJ rider back when that marking was in existence.
and so was I....been riding for over 30 years[i'm talkin'R16/RI-9/R27-30 and last ,the R42'S when they were new]
I rode on that same rolling stock myself, although in my case most of the time it was R27/30s. I rode on the R-16s a grand total of two times, 19 years apart.
It could work if a 4-track subway were built... and, you could have it connect to the S 4th St station... this way, you can eliminate having trains using the Willy B.
Though the bridge has been repaired in recent years, it costs a lot less to maintain a tunnel then a bridge. By building a tunnel and connecting it to the Essex St station, it would solve transportation problems in the area.
Once over the Willy B, that line is refered as the Broadway-Brooklyn. Nassau Street does not extend into Brooklyn.
Phil Hom
In fact, the Nassau Street line only runs along Nassau Street between Broad Street and Chambers Street.
Before the portion between Chambers St. and the Montague St. tunnel opened, the line was known as the Centre St. line.
Four tracking may not be posssible. But extending the three track express, and using it for more hours, woould be a great idea if it could be pulled off.
The (J)(M)(Z) lines have a lot of potential, especially the (J)(Z) which could take heat off Queens Blvd. They are also the only real direct link between northern Queens and most of Brooklyn, seeing how isolated and indirect the (G) is.
:-) Andrew
The two-track section of the J/Z has island platforms. Installing a third track would require also installing new side platforms. Oh, an express station or two would be nice -- otherwise passengers boarding between Sutphin and Eastern Parkway would be rightly annoyed.
The two-track section of the J/Z has island platforms. Installing a third track would require also installing new side platforms.
Right. I didn't say it would be easy or cheap.
Oh, an express station or two would be nice -- otherwise passengers boarding between Sutphin and Eastern Parkway would be rightly annoyed.
Agreed! Hmmm. How about Woodhaven Blvd and Crescent St, and maybe one or two others.
:-) Andrew
According to the track map, the 2-track section of the J/Z has side platforms, not island platforms. Also, I believe the el structure was built to accommodate a third, center track. It would not be terribly expensive to build this and allow peak-hour express service a la the 7 and 6, and the late lamented W in Queens.
Several stations on the (J)(Z) have island platforms, I believe arround the infamous S-curve. They are the minority though.
:-) Andrew
Alabama, Cleveland, Norwood, Van Siclen and Crescenbt have island platforms. Starting with Cypress Hills to and including 121 the platforms revert to side platforms. Marcy, Hhewes, Lorimer, Flushing, Kosciuszko, Gates, halsey and Chauncey are also side platforms.
According to Joe Cunningham, the BRT (predecessor to the BMT) did have polans for third tracking the line. Leaving Eastern Parkway you will see a flyover heading in the same direction as the J and ending at Alabama Ave Station. While he was unsure, the thinking was it would be a second level at Alabama and was to bypass the S curve.
While this **might**be feasible today the question is do we need it and what do we do with the rooms that were built in many locations in the space where the third track would go-extend the platforms, over the platforms, under the platforms (additional mezzanine rooms in closed space)
I don't ride the J, but it's one of the longest (if not the longest) outerboro lines without express service. Ditto for the 1 north of 96th -- which is why skip-stop was instituted on these 2 lines. But skip-stop is a pale imitation of real express service.
The Broadway EL is the longest in the city, if not the whole country. It's also one of the oldest still standing.The short comings of this route is the configuration. It is out dated. Other cities that still have them have upgraded them to meet travel needs,such as line relocation in some places to provide a more direct service to the central business district[see Boston's Orange line]. While the idea of placing a forth track for express service is impossible[Broadway's too narrow],there are other ways to speed up service,such as rerouting the EL in East New York to eliminate the sharp curves,direct connections to other lines there[A/C and L],and full time express service to and from Jamaica based on the service patterns used today on simular lines[Flushing,Pelham and so on..]. There are many ways can inprove this line,but as we all know.. that takes capitol and manpower which [both]are in short supply.
Not that I really agree with the original post but I must say a forth track IS feasible even without widening Broadway or Jamaica Av by putting it on a different level. (for example there are 4 tracks between Stillwell and W.8 Street)
"by putting it on a different level"
The dual level BMT tracks in brooklyn are in the wide open, with no buildings closing in on them on both sides.
While in therory it may be possible, I do not believe that the existing structure will be able to bear the load. It is after all the oldes surviving structure in the city.
I was thinking of the idea of running a parallel rute on the next block over, say the southbound lines on Jamacia Avenue, and the northbound lines on... on.... er..... HEY, THEIR AIN'T ANOTHER GOOD ROUTE TILL YOU GET TO ATLANTIC AVENue....... HMmmmmm......
Suppose we do build a new LIRR line via the LIC route, and then south into manhattan..... That would make the LIRR Atlantic Line surplus and.....
Elias
The locals in that neighborhood are not going to have that, so go back to the drawing board.
>>>>>>>>>One great weakness to the J,M,Z lines is the fact that is 3 tracks for the most part and only 4 tracks in Manhattan....................I think people can save time and it would take a significant amount of riders OFF the Queens Boulevard Lines.
Wrong. The TWO weaknesses are:
1) Current ridership is too light to warrant express service
2) The lines do not serve Midtown Manhattan, thus making the Queens Blvd thing moot since it does not interest them.
This is an example where capitalist competition would help. If the J were turned over to a competitor, they would put in express service and resurrect the K line to midtown, thus relieving the ridership crunch on the E/F from Jamaica.
The lines currently don't serve midtown Manhattan now, but the potential exists with the Christie St connection they used in 68 to Broadway-Laffayette and up 6th Avenue after Essex Street. If they did this however, I don't think the current Broadway line could handle the extra trains.
When is the last time they used the Chrystie Street connection from Nassau St line to 6th Avenue for revenue service? Was the K the last time? Why did they stop using it?
The connection has not seen regular revenue service since 1976. Low ridership had a lot to do with it.
Once great weakness to the J,M,Z lines is the fact that is 3 tracks for the most part and only 4 tracks in Manhattan...
A greater weakness is that less than 26,000 passengers use the services over the Williamsburgh Bridge during the morning rush hour. They are running only 20 tph. This figure could be increased by 50%, without any construction, should increased demand warrant it.
One of the problems[concerning low ridership],not enough services offered.While there is a direct connection to the 6th Avenue line to upper Manhattan/Middtown and another to Rockaway pky,and yet another potential route to the Rockaways or Queens Blvd [IF the T.A.CHOSE TO build THEM],the T.A has chosen not to offer any type of service improvement to the riding public.AT THIS MOMENT,the services on the 6th ave line under 34th street are basicaly half of what it once was[B/D/F/Q replaced by the F/S-63rd st and S Grand st].IF by chance,one of the Nassau st line trains could be diverted up 6th ave,the transfer at ESSEX/DELACEY would be less crowed than it is,SOME ridership/service to and from the Queens blvd line could be sent up the Jamaica line[provided if a direct express is availble].There are many possiblies as far as routing goes,but you have have them in place for the riders or at least make it available. I've felt for years,that the T.A offen gave riders on the Eastern division the shaft. Now we have the chance to make things a little better with the avent of the R143 cars. Longer skip stop hours full express service from Essex st to Eastern Pky,better rolling stock, platform extentions and route extentions etc...you get the idea. I can go on and on but nothing will change unless rider voice their oppositon to whats happening to their line [like the riders of the Queens Blvd and Flushing lines].Thank you for the time to voice my opinion.
I think the since the 6th Ave. line has been so diminished because of the construction on the Manhattan Bridge, now would be a great opportunity to increase service on that line by using the Crystie Street connection again, from Essex Street.
MY point exactly.
I've felt for years,that the T.A offen gave riders on the Eastern division the shaft.
That's a very parochial view. They've given everyone the shaft.
They have,
But the Eastern division always gets the worse -- The oldest trains, last to have stations upgrades, Almost last to loose the grafitti, etc.
And look at the condition of Chambers, Bowery, and until recently how Canal used to look on the Nassau Line.
Who says the oldest trains are the worst?
The oldest aren't the worst (the best actually) What I meant to say is "run-down" If they would have kept them maintained. Beleive me, I was sorry to see the "red trains" (R27) go, when they rebuilt the R42's and R40's. It's just that as they painted and cleaned the trains up, the Nassau line always had the unpainted graffitied dirty trains. (I even miss the R16's which were always the dirtiest messes!) They never even got the chance to get cleaned up. Most of them were a mess right up to the end.
I LOVE the idea. That would not only help out Queens Blvd. riders, but it gives LIRR riders a fast way to reach lower Manhattan. In the interest of saving money, the only thing I would do differently is to construct a single middle track between Crescent and 121 Street (which already exists in some areas) as opposed to two express tracks and have the express train skip Marcy. I would designate Myrtle, Eastern Pkwy, Crescent and Sutphin Blvd (along with Jamaica Center) as the express stations. The express (probably Z) would skip Alabama, Van Siclen, Cleveland and Norwood the same way that the LIRR skips stations, only that it would be in the peak direction. The express would always have priority over the local. I would also extend the middle track at Marcy to connect with NB and SB tracks west of the station. It gives express riders one less stop to deal with.
That would be a much more feasible idea. There is no way they are going to rip all the stations up from Cypress Hills to 121 street to add a fourth track. But using the middle for the express track can work without major reconstruction.
I LOVE the idea...The express (probably Z) would skip Alabama, Van Siclen, Cleveland and Norwood the same way that the LIRR skips stations, only that it would be in the peak direction.
Really? You should be able to do the math. Look at the J/Z schedule. The running time between Eastern Pkwy and Crescent St as a local is 9 minutes. The skip-stop time is 7 minutes. Therefore, the express time would be 5 minutes.
Given that the minimum headway between trains on the same track can be 2 minutes, tell me what the minimum headway can be with simultaneous local and skip-station express service. Justify your answer.
Next, compare this to the present 3/6 minute scheduled headway for the 1/9 skip stop service. Which has the potential for more service?
Is it really that long? I didn't think that local trains traveling through that stretch would take that long. Anyway, what I'm thinking of is to alter the timing of the trains. I would have the express train leave its terminal first and have the local leave almost right behind it in its wake. Wait about 7 minutes and repeat the process again. I'm gambling is that by the time the local reaches Cypress Hills, there should be an express passing it. In any situation where there is an express anywhere near a local and both have to share a track, the local is held up. This could get ugly along the stretch you're talking about, but I think this could work.
On second thought, I admit that you have a very good point. This is the MTA; trains rarely run with pinpoint timing. What could be done in this situation is to run skip-stop service between Eastern Pkwy and Crescent only. The skip-stop express (probably Z) could go express between Essex and Eastern Pkwy and between Crescent and Sutphin Blvd. The skip-stop local (probably J) would have to run completely local in order to avoid total confusion. I think I still have a headache coming on.
That would penalize riders at J only stations. It would make the Z a more desirable train to ride, people would crowd it, thus defeating the purpose of skip-stop service to begin with.
Service is fine as is. Running one route down the middle track would only save what, about 2 minutes, over the current skip-stop?
You don't seem to like express service much, do you? Or do you just think eastern Queens riders don't deserve them?
An express run down the Jamaica/Broadway el could conceivably make a BIG difference, considering how many stops it might skip.
:-) Andrew
I think they mean as it currently is set up. Running the Z as and express from Eastern Pky to Myrtle would make the J a longer ride because the J would have to stop at the four stations in between, thus make the J line a longer route for all the J only stations before Eastern Pkwy. What they really need to do is put in the express track in between 121 St and Cypress Hills, run the J local, the Z express. And to deal with the island platform area from Alabama to Cypress Hills, without having to do major construction, unfortunately, just have to make the J and Z stop at them. I don't see how else to deal with that without major reconstuction.
An express train running between Crescent and Sutphin and between Essex and Eastern Pkwy, with a skip-stop in between, would save riders in Eastern Queens at least 7 to 10 minutes over a pure skip-stop. I don't think that trains would be that packed when they roll into the hypothetical skip-stop section of the line between Crescent and Eastern Pkwy. People don't ride the J/Z because skip-stop service isn't the same as express service. People that have stops at a local station would love to take an express first-until they see how packed the express is. I'm guessing that, like riders on the 7, they'll rather have a seat on the local instead of being cramped on an express.
I agree. However, no such track exists, and will never exist. I was talking about current service which was possible with the present infrastructure. I know all to well how "slow" the J line is, as i ride it every day. With the 2 tracks, only skip-stop service is viable.
You're absolutely right. The way it's set up now, skip-stop is the best option for the Nassau Line. I only wish that someday in the future, the MTA finally decides to put a complete center track between Crescent and Sutphin. Until then, I can only dream...
That will be the next project as soon as they finish the Second Ave Subway.
Oh goody. That means it's SURE to be done by 2005!!!!!!
An express track between Supthin & Crescent is useless if the express trains have to merge again with the locals from Crescent to Alabama. All that merging will cancel out any time savings. The real soulution is to demolish the ancient Fulton St. elevated structure and to move it north to Jamaica Ave, with a 3 track line all the way from the present Eastern Parkway thru 121st. St. Chances of being done: 1 in a zillion to the zillionth power.
I don't know about that. If you think about it, the Jamaica Express train with the skip-stop section included between Crescent and Eastern Pkwy would skip some 17 stops, in comparison to about 10 skipped stops for the current skip-stop service. Also remember that in my scenario the express would always have priority over any local. While, I admit that having three merges could cause some delays, more often than not the express would not be delayed. We wouldn't have to destroy the old el between Eastern Pkwy and Crescent.
One more thing, I would extend both J and Z trains to Broad Street. Still, your idea, in my opinion, is a very good idea.
Idea good: Yes
Worth the money: Yes
TA Cheap: Yes
TA run by rich businessmen instead of railroad people: Yes
The second Avenue subway needs to be built too.
From what I'm getting from this board,there a a few nay sayers and a few thumbs ups....... if you are a regular passenger or rider useing these lines .. then you would know exactly what I'm talking about.Service is not that bad,but... it can be MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!
Gentlemen,gentlemen,
Please, we have kicked this dead dog around enough!
Here is MY FINAL SOLUTION!
1) Add a third,center track for express peek direction were the present structure will allow. That is above the Jamaica avenue segment.
2) Construct a single track structure from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway on the north side of Jamaica Ave to Eastern Parkway, NO STOPS!
using the same type of construction as the AIRTRAIN for this SINGLE trackbed. A flyover or fly under at either end to rejoin the Right-Of-Way .
This would be a reduced version of the break-a-way express dash employed on the Queens Blvd. line of the "E"&"F" expresses.
We would then have:
A new express service, little or no disruption to current Local service, and a very quite run next to a cemetery. Elemination on the express dash of those two Curves BRTman knows and loves so well. Preservation of the oldest "El" this side of the Black stump. Possible use of the 75ft behemoths on the Eastern Division.
avid
Great Idea
avid
here is my comment on your plan by item numbers:
1- East of Cypress Hills the line does have shoret third tracks at 121 and possibly (disputed)at other location(s).While the line might hold a third track the question is if the line is strong enough for the weight load and where to move all the rooms (near stations) built in this space. Also to be decided is do we want/need express srops ie Woodhaven Blvd and hwo to make them express tops ie switches widen the structure by tearing down houses and making a full express stop such as Eastern Parkway or Broadway/Myrtle
2-The flyover was actually proposed by the BRT before the demise precipitated by Malbone Street. Joe Cunningham has advised that the BRT had poor records but he guesses the myserious flyover East of Eastern Parkway ending at Alabama Ave station was the start.
3- I think it has been dsicussed here that the Willie B can not handle 75 foot cars along with other locations.
Youe post and suggestiosn are good and intelligent.
Isn't the short third track further west, like at 111th St.
There is also third track in place on Crescent, between Crescent and Cypress Hills stations on the old portion of the el.
The track is in at 111th Street, sometimes they store trains there.
Does the center track have a wye switch at each end?
avid
Fifty Five years ago 111th St was the eastern terminal for the old Lexington Ave el during rush hours. They put together, broke down and stored the old gate cars there during non-peak hours. The old building at the east end of the north platform was the control room of the operation. This ended in 1950!
Good lord, that building is in horrible shape. I thought it housed the switch equipment for the interlocking here. And speaking of horrible condition, I bet that center track hasn't been replaced since the days it was used to store these gate cars!
As small as the building was, they must have had a crewroom in there too. I often saw an new train coming out of the center track stop there to pick up a couple of gatemen. A three car gate train seemed lost when stopped at the station. It was less than 150 foot long, and non rush hour Standards were almost 400 foot long. Even at the height of rush hour they only ran five car gate trains.
402 feet, to be exact, for a 6-car train of BMT standards.
Some of the houses or shacks could be underslung where some of the station mezzinenes were removed, or on platform extensions.
Express stops, every third or fourth station or at major intersections with connecting bus routes would probly involve
1) Center track installation.
2) One side of local tracks removed and a Platfom built over the local track location.
3) Two tracks used while old platform is removed on side with new Platform.
4) New local tracks built were theold platform was.
5) Repeat for the oposite side.
You would always have two tracks in service. In the end you would go from two side platforms to two island platforms in almost the same space. Hopefully no property would be lost by private owners.
I guess a close look at the express stops on the #7 Flushing line would be most helpful, that and the Atlantic Ave relocation on the "L" train.
What thoughts do you have? Maybe BRTman could throw some fuel on the fire? I'd extend these new stations to 670ft during construction JIC.
avid
(First some background, then a question:)
For those who don't know, SEPTA is curently in the middle of upgrading the MFL to ATC, and eventually removing all of the wayside signals in the process. They are also upgrading the power system, and adding huge cables for return-power from regen. braking. They are also installing a new crossover at 40th St, to allow them to run trains to 40th St during times when the West El is closed for reconstruction.
Now, a question:
Why did they remove the crossover at 5th St? They have been working on this for a few weeks now, and it looks like they are pretty much done now. Is it just to conserve on maintenance, since they are adding one at 40th? Won't this cause much longer delays when running 1-track downtown? Why decrease flexibility in rerouting?
Okay, I just had a brainstorm... Is it possible that they are MOVING the crossover from 5th to 40th, to save $$ over buying new interlocking equipment (which would immediately become obsolete in a couple years when they finish ATC.) That would make more sense, I guess. Does anyone know if that is what they are actually doing?
Is the 40th St interlocking inside the tunnel? It is a siscors crossover? Are they keeping US&S EP (either A-10 or A-5) switches? How are they "removing" the 5th St. interlocking? I could just be an upgrade. W/o the 5th St interlocking they would have to cross trains over at String Garden, but that has a pocket track that is usually occupied. This is going to create a huge gap.
There is a new crossover to be installed at 40th St, mainly to help when the Market El work starts (the bus shuttles will end there rather than at 30th), but to add future flexibility. The crossover is in the tunnel and, I believe, west of the station. On the stretch of subway between 30th St and the 44th St portal, there were gaps left in the center columns on either side of 34th and 40th for future crossovers at any of these locations.
As far as I know, the 5th St crossover is only out of service temporarily, although I don't know how long 'temporarily' is. It is really needed since the only other one in the subway in Center City is west of 15th St. The next eastward one is at Spring Garden and too far away to be effective for single tracking, emergency turns, etc.
Well, they've almost completely REMOVED all of the equipment and special track for the 5th street crossover. It's almost just two straight-through tracks there. Maybe it is a replacement (I hope so) but you'd think the track itself or some of the quipment would be salvagable...
I don't think there are gaps directly on either side of 34th St. There is a working crossover on the west end of 30th.
As for 5th St, there are also gaps at 8th and either 11th or 13th (can't recall which.) I think a crossover at 8th would make more sense than 5th, but this is SEPTA, so who knows.
8th woudln't make as much sence as they currently have a crossover about every 10-15 blocks. You'd end up w/ a small gap and a large gap.
Distance-wise, maybe, but not station-wise. There's one at 15th and one at Spring Garden. With a crossover at 5th, it's two stations to a another crossover going east, and four stations going west. If they moved it 8th, there would be another crossover three stations in either direction.
Good thing I posted those signaling diagrams as they are now a part of history. I am opposed to this cab signal project as it is replacing a perfectly good US&S penumatic system and the in cab displays are rather crapy. What is the point of a railfan window without all the pretty signals? I hope they don't impose some lame speed limit like 50 mph. Right now there are some stretches where the T/O's can get all they can get.
Pneumatics aren't cheap or easy to maintain. They leak, collect water, dirt screws them up, compressors crap out, etc etc etc. Anyway, IIRC, this signal system was a freebie from the settlement with ABB. Might as well get a "free" signal system...
From what I've read, even in industry, pneumatics are starting to get phased out, as better and cheaper linear actuators and stuff are developed.
(and before pointing out that the gas untitly effectively maintains a low leakage pneumatic system, realize that gas lines are fairly low pressure (40psi, and useually down to 1 or 2 psi in your home, IIRC), and that their valving is seldom used, and the stuff they're blowing around is moisture free)
Settlement with ABB for what? Didn't ABB get bought out years ago?
Yes ABB was bought out. That was part of the problem. AdTranz, as they are named today, settled the delay issue in delivering the machines with the new signal system.
Now if they could only get a modern fare collection system...
What's wrong with the current system? The turnstyles accept change! How convienent is that, no having to buy some silly card if you are in a hurry.
Yes, the turnstiles aren't bad - they accept cards, tokens, and change - even golden dollars.
BUT SEPTA doesn't make cards that make any sense. If you use regional rail, they make sense, but you still have to buy them weekly or monthly. They don't have any stored-value cards.
And if you only use the bus, trolley, or subway, tokens are much cheaper. There's nothing like the Metrocard for people who just ride the subway or a bus every day to work. Ridiculous.
What is wrong with tokens? They can't get de-magnitized and they government can't track you with them.
It's a pain to buy and carry them. I'd much rather load up a card once a month and not have to worry about it.
The fact that SEPTA might be able to know where I am is the least of my worries... Consider DC... (farecards, not the new system) your name is not on the card. Even on a stored value card, it would not have to have your name directly on the card.
This is an addendum to Rechaining BMT Route Q (L Line)?, posted by me on Fri Aug 31 11:15:03 2001.
I just noticed that new location plates are being installed. I spotted this example at the Graham Avenue station. On a column at this station, there is an old location board that reads Q1 175+00. At the next column towards Manhattan, there is a new board that is covered by a white piece of paper, but you can see the Q1 on it. The number 193+00 is written on this paper.
Someone said that there was a reason for the rechaining, but didn't say what it was.
HAS ANYONE TRIED TO LOOK AT THE NEW SUBWAY MAP ISSUED BY THE MTA ON THE SITE? I HAVE TRIED FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS BUT COULD NOT ACCESS IT. ANYBODY OUT THERE HAVE ANY PROBLEMS?
I just checked it now. You can access it by opening a *.pdf file within the browser or downloading it to your computer. Perhaps your browser Acrobat plugin is not working.
I can't stand Adobe Acrobat. Whenever it opens in my browser it downloads bits of the file at a time. It sometimes causes the browser to get stuck. To avoid this I right click the file, choose "save target as" and download the file as a whole, and open it up with Acrobat later.
Still using Acrobat Reader 3.01, I see... a lot of the newer files out there now are created with 4.0 or 5.0, which aren't 100% compatible (despite Adobe's claims) with 3.01.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The map is in PDF format. Do you have Adobe Acrobat installed?
Go to a token booth and ask for a copy!
In Greller's book "Subway cars of the BMT", the author relates
a reputation that the BMT MultiSection cars had for failing to
stop, including one eyewitness account.
The MS cars were technologically decades ahead of their time.
Arguably, they were more sophisticated than equipment the TA
was ordering 30 years later. Did you know that these cars
actually had an accelerometer in them for closed-loop control
of acceleration and braking effort? They also delivered both
dynamic and friction braking during emergency and had service
accel and brake rates of 4.0 MPH/s. If our current fleet had
that kind of performance, imagine what the service levels would
be without any additional equipment purchases.
The control and braking systems, however,
were overly complicated. I recently came across an air brake
instruction manual for the MS cars, and I can spot a number of
places where brake system failure could have taken place.
Now, some of you guys are old enough to remember first-hand.
Was this bad reputation founded or unfounded?
Did you know that these cars actually had an accelerometer in them for closed-loop control of acceleration and braking effort?
Are you talking about an accelerometer or tachometer pickup off the shaft? There would have been some major theoretical problems to using an accelerometer for closed loop control.
Yes, an accelerometer. To be precise, a weighted pendulum.
One of the things I can't figure out is how WABCO intended to
address wheel slide issues under variable loading, because there
is no apparent load weight compensator mechanism such as was
present on the ABs, D types, etc. If the wheels began to slip
during braking under light loading, the pendulum would do the
wrong thing and apply more brake pressure.
Yes, an accelerometer. To be precise, a weighted pendulum. One of the things I can't figure out is how WABCO intended to address wheel slide issues under variable loading, because there is no apparent load weight compensator mechanism such as was present on the ABs, D types, etc. If the wheels began to slip during braking under light loading, the pendulum would do the wrong thing and apply more brake pressure.
Wheel slip wouldn't be the only problem using a PIGA (Pendulous Integrating Gyro Accelerometer). The General Theory of Relativity comes into play. One cannot design an instrument that can distinguish between gravitational and other accelerations. The only way such readings can be used is to subtract out gravitational acceleration using an analytic model. The problem with this approach is that the errors are cumulative. This cumulative error would not be significant for the duration of the guided portion of a ballistic missile flight but would present problems for the run between 8th Ave and Myrtle Ave on the 14th St Line.
My guess is that the system never worked. Now, had they only used a generator-tachometer they might have had something that had a chance of working within the technology of that day.
Hey, you must have been around during the Multis' reign, do you
have any actual facts about them or just theoretical speculation>
I don't see why gravity would produce a cumulative error effect.
It's not like the accelerometer reading is being integrated to
derive velocity or position information. The primary purpose
of the pendulum device was, as far as I can tell, to automatically
graduate off the brakes to maintain a constant braking rate,
and to adjust the motor current for constant acceleration. There
would certainly be an error introduced by gravity but it would
only be as much as the percent grade being ascended or descended.
The mercury retarder on London Underground 1938 stock operated on the same principle as the pendulum to regulate braking. It worked quite well.
-Robert King
Hey, you must have been around during the Multis' reign, do you have any actual facts about them or just theoretical speculation
My personal experience with the Multis was after they had been exiled to the Myrtle Ave Line which I did not ride all that often. I was more unfavorably impressed by their lack of a rail fan window than their performance at that time. They were gone by the time I'd read about their technical virtues in my college's engineering library a few years later.
I don't see why gravity would produce a cumulative error effect. It's not like the accelerometer reading is being integrated to derive velocity or position information. The primary purpose of the pendulum device was, as far as I can tell, to automatically graduate off the brakes to maintain a constant braking rate, and to adjust the motor current for constant acceleration. There would certainly be an error introduced by gravity but it would only be as much as the percent grade being ascended or descended.
A pendulum accelerometer measures acceleration in only one direction. One method for removing the gravitational errors is to mount the accelerometer on a gyro stabilized inertial platform that is orthogonal to the gravitational force. I assumed rightly or wrongly that this was done with the Multis. The problem with this approach is that the gyros will drift with time and the errors will be cumulative.
If the accelerometer was not gyro stabilized then let's estimate the errors intoduced by gravity.
4 mph/sec = 5.88 ft/sec2 = 0.18 g
The horizontal component of gravity on a 2% is approximately 0.02 g. This means that the measurement errors introduced by gravity can be around ą10%
Next, there is the problem of errors introduced by the sensor itself. The pendulum is restricted to a very small displacement relative to its length at its maximum reading. Its motion is also heavily damped (usually a viscous liquid). Whatever method is used to measure the displacement would require amplification and linearization of the base displacement to get a useful signal. Considering how crude the equipment was at that time, I would be surprised if the total acceleration reading error was less than 25% of the actual reading. This is assuming that there are no additional failures.
Would 25% be good enough? Hard to say. But it would go a long way to explain the anecdotal evidence of platform overshoots.
What did cause the braking failures in the Multi Section cars?
#3 West End Jeff
A pendulum accelerometer measures acceleration in only one direction. One method for
removing the gravitational errors
is to mount the accelerometer on a gyro stabilized inertial platform
No, I assure you nothing so sophisticated! As far as I can
tell from the drawings, it was just a weighted pendulum (mass
unknown) a few inches long. There were two actually. One,
working against a spring, controlled electrical contacts to
affect the accelerating current setting. The other worked against
air pressure in a diaphragm which was relayed from the brake
valve. It also worked contacts which were connected to the
application & release magnet valves. The purpose of this device,
called the "Retardation Controller", seems to have been to modulate
the brakes at low speeds to prevent stonewall stops. Yes, a
malfunction could have easily caused blown station stops.
The horizontal component of gravity on a 2% is approximately 0.02 g.
Isn't it _exactly_ .02g?? Nonetheless, you are right, that would
introduce a 10% measurement error.
So far I've found a number of reasons why the Multis might have
experienced sudden long braking, including poor emergency brake
response when operated in the fallback pneumatic-only mode, but
nothing to explain the accounts of these trains becoming completely
unstoppable even after being dumped.
I can't vouch for any technical aspects of these cars, but when I was in high school in Manhattan (lived in Queens at that time), I'd go out of my way to ride these cars home almost every day, picking them up at Union Square, sometimes riding them to Canarsie, or, during rush hours, to Lefferts Boulevard. The Multis were the fastest accelerating cars ever to grace the New York City subway system. They were not the most beautiful, and the interiors were spartan, but they served well. The acceleration was so rapid that there were signs posted on the insides of the cars to the effect of directing passengers to hold on at all times. They also had a sound unlike any other cars. They had a Cineston single-handle controller, and you could easily see the motorman (yes, motorman, not train operator in those days) effortlessly piloting these gems. Unfortunately, they were retired in 1961 and had a farewell fantrip which I was on. Regrettably, none were saved, probably the only major class to be completely scrapped.
The Multi's never had a Cineston. Thet was the Bluebird.
I only saw the MS ONCE and that was at Broadway Junction as a VERY young child. While I can't vouch for their safety or their braking reliability, I can say that they were among the most unforgettable cars I have ever seen and I can remember the sight of this unique train even to this day.
wayne
The MS cars were quite interesting in their own way. It is too bad that none of them were saved since I'll NEVER get to see one. They were retired in September 1961 which was 1 1/2 years before I was born.
#3 West End Jeff
I can only imagine how those multis would have taken the CPW express dash. They would have dusted even the R-10s. Or the 14th St. tunnel. I'll bet they galloped on the upgrades compared to the BMT standards, whose gear pitch would drop steadily as they labored uphill.
I read the multis had a balancing speed of 58 mph.
I wonder how fast the Multis would have gone if they were on the stretch between Howard Beach ands Broad Channel.
#3 West End Jeff
The Multis' forte was acceleration/deceleration rates not top speed. When intermixed with conventional equipment they made express/local service possihle on two track lines like 14th St.
What was the maximum speed of the Multis?
#3 West End Jeff
Balancing speed was 58 mph.
60 doesn't sound farfetched.
i finally obtained everything i wanted...an R key, a vapor key, redbird keys, a reverser key and a brand new brake handle! all from ebay! im so happy..lol this is the greatest thing ever!
Now you need to either get a job with the TA or volunteer at a museum to use them on the real thing ... that is unless you also plan to build a cab in you house. Heypaul will be right over.
Mr t__:^)
Let's see him get a CONTROLLER off eBay ... 'nuff said ...
All you need now is a butt plug.:-)
Do not brag about it in public.
If you haven't heard, TA President Reuter issued a memo to all TA employees that no TA property is to be offered for sale (especially via auction). Don't be suprised if that new brake handle was stolen merchandise.
If anyone knows the exact wording of the memo (and can get a copy for us to see), please post.
lol it wasnt stolen..i know that for a fact...and the reverser is old...not stolen either...i dont want a controller though i wouldnt mind one..but i now can steal a train. j/k y take a controller when i can take the entire train..lol this is all a joke...i mean yes i really do have the stuff but its ok i aint planing to use it
Danny
Been Reading / Watching DVD Frame By Frame "Taking Of Pellham 123" Alot Recently?
That's how I was able to identify that R-17 on the end of the first train visible as Martin Balsam enters the subway. It's car 6762, and it had graffiti on it.
Whoppee! And I'm still afraid of power testing. You wouldn't want to drag the brake handle around all day...makes a great hammer. Peter
I believe you when you say that you won't use those tools. but Reuters' point is that the TA has to jump on the national bandwagon in regard to tightening security. These kind of tools, if they are numerous in number, can easily get into the wrong hands, and already have in the past (remember Darius Mc?) I've heard (I cannnot confirm) that TA operating employees have offered unwanted TA uniforms for sale on E Bay. This kind of thing always has been a security breach, it is only since 9/11/01 that this matter can't be kept under wraps anymore.
If you are in possession of a brake handle, reverser, train keys, uniforms, etc. in public, and you are not an MTA employee, you will be arrested and charged with "possession of stolen property." It does not matter how you got them: ebay, employee, train show, whatever. If anyone has these things in their collection, that's cool, but don't leave your house with them.
This time it is part three of Life in Commuter.
The Electric District is the former Illinois Central (and later Illinois
Central Gulf) Electric District (and also known as the Suburban Division and
the Lake Shore Electric District at one time) that was sold to Metra in
1987. It is broken into three sub-districts; the University Park Line, the
South Chicago Branch and the Blue Island Branch. The University Park (UP)
Sub is the main route that extends from Randolph Street Station in downtown
Chicago to University Park, a suburb some 32 miles south. The South Chicago
Branch breaks off at 67th Street about 8 miles from Randolph heading
southeast ending at 91st and Baltimore on Chicago's Southeast Side. The Blue
Island Branch breaks off just south of Kensington on the far south side of
Chicago, some 14 miles from Randolph, terminating in that namesake town.
At one time, all three of these lines had freight service. This freight
service consisted of switching the on line industries. No through freight
traffic normally operated on these lines though. The South Chicago Branch
was the first to go all passenger, long before I ever arrived on the scene.
The Blue Island Branch had a single freight customer left, a lumberyard in
Blue Island right across from the depot. This customer ceased to exist by
1992. The UP Sub had its very last freight move in late 2000. This was when
an outfit called Recyclers in Chicago near Kensington burned down. The
switch is still in place to reach the remains of the plant, but no rail
service occurs there anymore.
I began my qualification runs on the Electric District after qualifying in
diesel service. After about a month or so, all three of us hired were given
tests on the equipment and the physical characteristics of the line. Upon
the successful completion and a qualifying run, we were all placed onto the
extra board.
The Electric District has three extra boards, one at University Park, one at
Blue Island and one at Randolph Street. The UP board normally covers all the
jobs that went on and off duty at UP and Richton Park. The Blue Island board
covers jobs at Blue and the Randolph board covers jobs at Randolph Street
and the 18th Street MU (Multiple Unit) shed where the Highliners are
serviced. If for any reason the board at one location was exhausted (no
rested or available Engineers), Engineers from the next closest board could
be used to cover the vacancy. It was not uncommon to be pulled from one
board to protect a job on another board's territory
We were all placed on the Randolph board. My first day was working the
Hostler job at the 18th Street MU shed. Aside from several student trips
here, I knew virtually nothing about the job. Another Engineer working here
took the helm and ran the show. It involved switching out the cars and
sending them into various tracks for inspections, maintenance or just
routine servicing, such as cleaning and changing light bulbs in between
trips.
Working the Randolph board had me at the 18th Street Shed quite frequently.
There were several jobs for Engineers there in the morning and midday. Many
of them were normally vacant as many of the Engineers did not like to work
there. The reason was the Hostler. He was a crabby and cantankerous old cuss
who could really be miserable to work with. No wait, miserable is far too
kind. On a good day he was a huge pain in the ass to work with. I believe he
ate gunpowder for breakfast and washed it down with a mixture of vinegar,
lemon juice and cayenne pepper oil. He would scream and yell almost
constantly, or at least so it seemed. I firmly believed his away from work
life was totally miserable so he took it out on us.
Eventually, I developed enough seniority to move to the UP board, which was
much closer to home. I did manage to work every single assignment on the
district. We had forty-three passenger combinations (passenger runs), five
MU Shed jobs and six relay jobs at Randolph Street.
The combinations were the combined runs of each particular assignment. Some
combinations made multiple trips, while others made one "middle trip" and
still others were "one trippers." Middle trips were short trips after making
your initial trip. You might work a combination that went on duty at UP. You
would take a morning rush hour train into Randolph, get a brief or extended
layover there, make a run to either Blue Island or South Chicago, get a
short layover there, work a train back into Randolph. You would then get
another layover and either getting another short trip or work your way home
on UP bound train.
Some combinations had you make two runs between UP and Randolph. Others
might make two runs between Randolph and South Chicago. Still others did a
run from Blue Island to Randolph, a run to South Chicago and a run back home
to Blue later.
There were several combinations known as "one trippers." On these trains,
you worked a morning rush train into Randolph, took your empty train to the
18th Street MU Shed or to the storage track across from the Van
Buren/Jackson Street Station and either hung around downtown or caught the
next southbound train home. In the afternoon, you caught a northbound train
in, went to either the storage track or 18th Street MU Shed and got your
train. You would run it into Randolph when it was your turn, load up and
head for home. We had quite a few of these jobs, with all but one based out
of Richton Park Yard. The other was a Blue Island job.
The basic train system for morning and evening rush had "zone" trains and
locals as well as the Blue Island and South Chicago trains. Morning zone
trains would originate at UP or Richton Park Yard. UP zone trains would
depart from there making stops at Richton Park station, Matteson, 211th
Street and Olympia Fields. From there, they were express trains to Randolph.
Some might make either a Kensington or Hyde Park (55th/57th Street or 59th
Street) stop, or both. These trains carry 700 series symbols.
Flossmoor zone trains originated at the Richton Park Yard and ran empty
equipment to the Flossmoor station. They then made stops at Homewood,
Calumet and Hazel Crest. Again, they were express trains to Randolph
possibly making a stop at Kensington and/or one of the Hyde Park stops
before reaching downtown Chicago. These trains carried 730 series symbols.
Harvey zone trains also came out of Richton Park Yard, running empty
equipment to the Harvey station. From here you made stops at Sibley
Boulevard (147th Street), Ivanhoe (downtown Dolton) and Riverdale. Again,
possibly with an intermediate stop as well. These trains carry 750 series
symbols.
In the evening, the southbound zone trains worked very much the same. You
might make a Hyde Park or Kensington (or both) stops, and then express to
your zone. Southbound zone trains were allowed to leave any station within
their zone in advance of the leaving time except the Hyde Park and
Kensington stops. They did not pick up passengers for transportation between
stations within their assigned zones.
After arriving back at Richton Park Yard, you spotted your train on the
designated track and secured the train. The Conductor and Assistant
Conductor would shut the train down according to the instructions required
based upon weather conditions. In the warmer months, the entire train would
be shut down killing all power to it. As the weather grew colder, you would
have to leave certain functions running in the train, such as heat, motor
generators and air compressors operating to keep things from freezing up.
Some Engineers on evening UP zone trains worked a train back into Randolph.
Others pulled their trains into the yard there and tied up. As required, you
might pull into the yard, cut off two or four cars as instructed by Randolph
Control, pull back into the station and then work a train north.
One morning UP zone train had the crew departing Randolph at 0420 and
working a local train to UP. You had a short lay over at UP and then worked
train 702 downtown. You did a quick turn to South Chicago, laid over there,
then worked back to Randolph and your day was complete.
We also had jobs called the South Chicago Loop and the Blue Island Loop.
These were both post evening rush hour trains that basically looped back and
forth. The South Chicago Loop would operate as follows; First a run from
Randolph to UP, a quick layover there and a return trip to Randolph. Then a
run from Randolph to South Chicago, a brief layover and then run north. We
would run as far as 59th Street Station on the UP Sub and unload everybody
for destinations north of here. These folks would transfer to the inbound
train out of UP. Once we met this train and received any passenger from them
going to points on the South Chicago Branch, we headed back south to 67th
Street. The 67th Street platform was only used for connecting Loop trains
with southbound UP trains. We would meet the southbound UP trains, swap
passengers and depart back to South Chicago. We repeated this procedure all
evening making the final southbound run after meeting the last train out of
Chicago. The last train would leave Randolph at 0045. After meeting him at
67th Street, we made our last run to South Chicago, quickly turned back and
made a dead head equipment run back to Randolph and tied up.
The South Chicago Loop was referred to as a "blood money" job. It was
grueling, as you never got a particularly long break. You had to eat fast in
between loops. The two regular Trainmen on the job, Conductor Greg Harris
and Assistant Conductor Hiram McRainey made it fun though, as they were
pretty good guys to work with. They even had a system worked out with a few
of the eateries along the way. They would call the place we decided to have
dinner from and place the order. As we came up to them, either Greg or Hiram
would run over to get our food while we paused for a moment across from the
place, or an employee from the establishment would come out to the train
bringing our food to us.
This train operated nightly and also all day Sunday. On Sundays, all service
on both the main line and the South Chicago Branch was every other hour.
This resulted in long layovers at South Chicago on Sundays, so you brought
along plenty of things to read and keep yourself occupied.
The Blue Island Loop worked in a similar fashion with a few notable
differences. On this loop, we ran from Blue Island to Kensington and met
both the north and southbound UP trains at the Kensington platform. The
stops along the Blue Island Branch all became flag stops after the 2100-hour
trip. Northbound people traffic was virtually negligible as the evening
progressed. Most of our business was southbound passengers heading home. The
layover at Blue was longer allowing for a better chance to eat. On occasion,
we would order a pizza and have it delivered here. The Blue Island Loop
would conclude with a trip south after meeting the 2300-hour train out of
Randolph.
The layover facilities at both Blue Island and South Chicago were spartan at
best. As a result, you spent most of the time on the train. The facilities
at Randolph were much more accommodating. We had a pool table, a kitchen
area, a couple of soda machines, a 27" color TV with cable and a VCR,
overstuffed chairs around the TV area, tables and chairs, a bunk room and
shower facilities. The cable was paid for from a fund that came from all the
aluminum cans we collected there. We had our in resident chef, Wayne Pinnow.
Wayne worked a trip in to Randolph, laid over and sold hot sandwiches and
other goodies from the kitchen. We had two microwave ovens paid for by the
employees. There was also a coffeepot, toasters, a refrigerator and a
toaster oven as well. Yes, we railroaders really know how to eat.
One drawback to Electric District trains was the way some of the
combinations were set up. You might go on duty at Randolph Street and
complete your tour of duty at UP or Blue Island. Or go on at Blue and finish
at Randolph. This was a pain as you then had to wait and ride the next
departing train back to your on duty point. We did get paid for this though.
The rate you received varied depending upon your hire date. Pre 1988 hires
got return miles for this. Return miles were the rail miles. Post 88 hires
got return time. This was time paid by the minute from your arrival to the
time the train you were required to ride back actually returned to your on
duty point.
A few old heads chided us as they thought they were making more than us on
this system. A sharp eyed post 88 Engineer noticed something in the
agreement that required Metra to pay us overtime if the return time made our
total day in excess of eight hours. Suddenly, in many cases we were actually
making more money for our return trip than the pre 88 guys, a lot more.
Their laughter quickly turned to tears as they realized that we were now
getting more money for this than they were. Then you should have heard them
whine and howl.
"Who's sorry now?"
In some cases, such as the Blue Island Loop, you went on duty at Randolph
and finished at Blue. Being there was no train to catch back to Randolph,
you had to make provisions beforehand. Normally you went to Blue Island,
parked your vehicle there and caught a train downtown. This way your car was
in position when you tied up. You did this on your own time though.
On occasion, you could work out an arrangement with another Engineer and
they would drive your car, or you theirs to the final location you would
operate the train. This would have both of you in position for a quick
getaway and home at least an hour sooner. Another method was to park your
car at the final run terminal and ride a train into your on duty point. This
normally worked well. It did have you giving up some of your own time at the
beginning of your day though. Also, should something go horribly wrong
causing the train you were riding in to be delayed, you were caught in it
and late for work. We'll discuss being late in a bit.
It seemed that just like the freight railroads, Metra was perennially short
of Engineers and sometimes Trainmen too. They would attempt to call you on
your day off and even while off on a personal day or vacation to come in and
work. They had an agreement that obligated you to work if they got a hold of
you to come in. Guess who quit answering their phone when they weren't
required to?
Extra board employees did not have regular days off. Instead, we were given
what were known as "20d days." This was article 20 section d of the
Engineers agreement. It allowed for two of them per month if you protected
the extra board for fourteen straight days. If you didn't use them, you lost
them. They did not carry over from month to month. You would call the caller
in the evening and request one. If they had the people, you would get it. At
0001 hours the following day, you automatically went back to the bottom of
the board. Needless to say, we all took part in their use. And again, when
the phone rang while I was off on a 20d day, I did not answer.
We would get a three-hour call on the Electric District as opposed to two
hours everywhere else. University Park extra Engineers also protected the
two Heritage Corridor jobs if either of these two Engineers marked off. The
three-hour call was great.
I interviewed with the then, Director of Suburban Operations (known
everywhere else and by the help as the Superintendent) Andy Selph. Andy was
old GM&O from Missouri. His personal crusades included rule G (the
prohibition of use of drugs and alcohol), being late, speeding and about
every other rule in the book. You did things one way, Andy's way. He
explained this all to me at the interview and asked if I would have problems
with his way of doing things. I responded "I cut my teeth at the Missouri
Pacific. It was once said that MoPac management had the mentality of
plantation overseers. I served discipline once on some six and half years
there and vowed to never serve any again. I think I can survive in your
world."
He loved it. I thought my analogy of the MoPac management was great. I think
he wished he could be thought of in that way. This response is probably what
landed me the job there.
Andy clearly stated in his Missouri drawl, "I'll smile when I hire you and I
'll smile when I fire you." I never saw anybody who so seemed to love to put
people out on the street. I'll bet NS managers aren't even as bad as Andy
could be. I wonder if they ever came in the attempt to recruit him?
I was determined that Andy would never catch me doing anything wrong that
would result in any discipline. And I lived up that vow. In the year plus I
worked under Andy's regime before he retired, we never even exchanged a
cross word. Never once got called into the office to explain myself for
something that happened. Most of my conversation with him was usually just a
greeting to him as we passed in the halls.
With exception to the relay jobs at Randolph and the 18th Street, you were
normally on duty about 20-25 minutes before your train was scheduled to
depart. There were a few exceptions, the first job in the morning at UP,
Richton and Blue Island were required to be there like an hour before train
time. You would be used to hostle and equipment around that might have to be
switched out for whatever reason. During your pre-train prep time, you would
get your air test if the relay person hadn't done it for you. You also had
time to get a time and radio check, and also to check the bulletin boards.
Needless to say time was critical.
The relay jobs were akin to switchers. The Relay Engineer would move the MU
Highliners around the station at Randolph Street. This might include
coupling up several small sets of Highliners to make an outbound train of
four or six cars. It might involve splitting up an inbound four or six car
train into several sets of two car trains. On occasion you would take some
equipment over to the 18th Street MU Shed or bring some back. I would
normally handle air tests for most of the outbound trains when I worked the
relay jobs. Many of the others that worked them would do the same. These
jobs paid yard rate and unlike the passenger combinations, made Holiday pay
if you worked a Holiday. They were pretty good jobs and I enjoyed working
them. They either had one or two days off, that being a weekend day or days.
The MU Highliners had tightlock couplers like Amtrak coaches and rapid
transit electrical grids instead of jumper cables in between them. They
always operate in pairs with one facing north and one facing south. Unlike
the South Shore cars, which can operate as a single car, the Highliners
cannot. The South Shore cars have an Engineers compartment at both ends of
the car on all powered coaches. The Highliners do not.
All even numbered Highliners face north and odd numbered ones face south.
There is a reason for this owing to the rapid transit electrical grids. They
are not universal like the MU receptacles on a locomotive. Therefore it you
turn a Highliner, none of the buttons on the grid will line up correctly and
thus, the cars will not MU properly.
Coupling and uncoupling them is accomplished through the use of a
coupling/uncoupling button. Unless the system hangs up, you need not step
outside of the car to engage or disengage the coupling. Should there be a
failure in the system, you had to step out and do a couple of fairly simple
tasks, but quite honestly, I cannot even recall them anymore. I really
quickly deprogrammed myself from the policies and procedures when I left.
Andy had what was referred to as the "snitch rule." You were required to
turn in somebody for being late. The rule required you be on the platform at
your train or in the office at the on duty time depending upon the location
and situation. If you were even one minute late, a fellow crewmember was
required to turn you in to Randolph Control. If you knew you were going to
be late for any reason, you could call Randolph Control in advance to advise
them. They could make contingency plans as needed if you were not there for
train time.
There was one time when a certain female Conductor (who was not well liked
and considered by many to be a . well, it's a word that rhymes with witch)
turned her Engineer in for being late. He was walking across the parking lot
towards the platform and even waved to her. It was on duty time, so she
walked over to the radio, called Randolph Control (the Electric District's
version of a Dispatcher) and turned him it. She justified it as reasonable
as it was on duty time and he was theoretically late. Talk about splitting
hairs. Andy loved this sort of attitude. Certainly not the way to win
friends and get invited out to social activities with fellow employees.
Also, you were supposed to turn yourself in should you take a door or two or
more off the platform. On occasion, you might misjudge the stop. Other
times, an attractive female on the platform may impair your thinking. When
this happened, I referred to it as a "vision test." I could see her very
clearly. However, I lost sight of what I was supposed to be doing. A routine
equipment failure common to the Highliners could also have you overshooting
the mark. More on that in a minute.
Should you get a door or more off the platform, you were supposed to call
Randolph Control and report such an occurrence. On occasion, I would get a
door off. I only ratted myself out when it was equipment trouble. This was
taking a chance though. Periodically there were spotters riding the trains
to observe the crews and watching for compliance. Should you take a door off
the platform, they would note such an event in their report. It would be
checked against the any reports from Randolph Control. If there was no
report made by the Engineer and the spotter turned it in, you were busted
and summoned to "7800's" office. 7800 was Andy's radio call sign. It was
also the extension to the phone in his office.
I can honestly say though, I never got caught. Guess I owe it all to clean
living. Excuse me while I step aside so that the lightning bolt misses me.
The Illinois Central and later, Illinois Central Gulf purchased the MU
Highliners in two separate orders. The first order was built by the St Louis
Car Company. There were the 1500-1630 built in 1971 and 72. Bombardier built
the second order 1631-1666 in 1978. These cars were doomed from the start.
St Louis Car had no overhead electrical supply and could not test the cars
for operating quality. They had to be tested on the IC. And they had all
sorts of problems right off the bat.
The biggest complaint was their braking abilities. They had a blended
braking system that consisted of air, dynamic and hydraulics. The dynamic
and hydraulic worked together, when they worked at all. The hydraulic was
prone to failure, operated inconsistently and was a maintenance nightmare.
Early in their careers on the IC, Engineers were constantly complaining
about braking problems with them. Modifications and adjustments were
routinely made in the attempt to correct and solve the problems. A fatal
crash occurred and was in part, the result of braking problems. In 1972, a
train of Highliner equipment overshot the stop at 27th Street in Chicago.
The Engineer backed the train up into the station. Based on the signal
system in place at that time, he cleared the block behind him and then
backed into it. Unfortunately, the train following him then got a proceed
signal when the first train cleared the block, and began to accelerate.
When all was said and done, the second train plowed into the first train
that backed back into the station and the block, now thought to be clear by
the second Engineer. There was a high death toll and injury rate from that
collision.
There were sweeping changes made as the result of that collision including
more modifications and adjustments to the braking system. One of the items
pointed out was the dark ends of the cars. They were silver and not very
visible, as they tended to blend into the background. After this disaster,
the ends of all the Highliners and the old green coaches that remained in
service were painted a high visibility orange. The Highliners had very small
red markers on the ends. There were complaints of them being hard to see.
Soon, large red markers were added right next to the little ones.
The biggest change of all came in the rules. A new rule was enacted that
prohibited any back up moves on the Electric Lines. Should you overshoot a
station or for any other reason have to reverse directions, you could not
accomplish this with a back up move. You had to change ends, get a new air
test and then permission and an absolute block from Randolph Control to make
a move in the opposite direction. The rules are very clear and concise and
state "UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL AN ELECTRIC TRAIN MAKE A BACK UP
MOVEMENT." The only time an electric train is allowed to make a back up move
is during switching in the yard.
The hydraulic and dynamic referred to as the "Hy and Dy was phenomenal when
it worked. The braking distances were amazingly short. You could hit the
end of the platform at 30 to 35 mph and dropping and be stopped smoothly in
six or seven car lengths. Sometimes you would be having a great run with no
problems, everything working as designed. Then, without warning, the hy and
dy would suddenly quit. Then you were wondering if you were even going to
get stopped for the station yet alone have a door or two off.
The Highliners also had an electric assist on the braking system. This was a
great feature. It allowed you hold the brake set on the train while
recharging the brake pipe, akin to a retainer on a freight train, but
electronically controlled. Normally, this worked very well, but on rare
occasion, something would go wrong here too and again, you might overshoot
the stop as a result. All of a sudden your brakes would be releasing when
you did not release them yourself. I think I can count on one hand how many
times this happened though.
Several cars were rebuilt in the late 80's with major modifications to the
braking system. Every Highliner in the fleet received a new hand brake
system. The old system used hand cranking to apply the brake. The new system
used air to apply and release the brake. In 1993, a project rebuild program
was undertaken by Morrision-Knudsen to completely overhaul and upgrade 130
of the MU Highliners. The hydraulic system on these cars has been replaced.
The badly rusting and deteriorating car bodies were repaired. New interiors
with softer colors were installed. There were numerous mechanical and
electrical changes and upgrades made as well. Alerters were added even
though the cars already had dead man's pedals. Even 97 channel radios were
added for whatever reason. These cars could not operate anywhere but on the
Electric District or perhaps the South Shore, but they got these new radios
just the same.
We'll take a look at operations as well as some interesting stories and a
closer look at the Highliners themselves in the next chapter.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Made in the USA
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001 by JD Santucci
Yesterday I heard one of our former mayoral canidates mention a connection with Staten Island And Manhatthan.And with my Second Avenue plan I got a wild idea.How about a mega tunnel.A road tunnel with 2 subway tracks in the middle as the divider serving South Ferry,Red hook and St George with acess to each other.
The tunnel will be 5 miles long and will be 50 feet high.The tunneling method,TBM.The speed limit for cars will be 70 mph.The drawback,faster IND,BMT or IRT(Seeing the R62 is one of the fastest trains in service) cars and Very few signals.This will bring subway service to Staten Island for the first time.
I'll sum up the main problem with your plan in one symbol:
$
What you smokin'fella,and can everybody else have some? This will never happen in your life time or mine.... so even though the idea was nice,face it......its a pipe dream...
In addition, most have lower Manhattan is inundated with tunnels. The only way it could work is to create a link for the #1 tunnel (connect it around the Rector St station) to Staten Island. By the time the tunnel is complete, service would have resumed on the 1 line south of Chambers. What you can have is 4 types of services on 7th Ave beginning say... 2005:
1 - 242nd St / South Ferry (local)
2 - 242nd St / Flatbush Ave (local)
3 - 148th St / New Lots Ave (express 96-Chambers)
9 - Staten Island / 137th St (local to Chambers, express to 137th)
That way, it could take some people off the Lex line 4/5 by not having to take the Ferry to Manhattan to hop on a train at Bowling Green.
It's a pipe dream, but it would be nice.
How much is the one-way ticket to FantasyLand?
Since we're now in Fantasyland; maybe I can really go off the wall with a strange suggestion. How about taking the R train route, extend it to the Verrazano Bridge and build track there and extend the subway to Staten Island. You could ramp the R train out of the tunnel just after 95th Street, and use the bridge to extend the subway. That was it would be less expensive that boring a five mile long tunnel. So I'm now in fantasy land, too. But what the heck, I kind of like it myself.
The Verazano can't support trains, and in order for a ramp which trains could negotiate to go that high to be built, it would have to be over a mile long. I doubt it would start at Bay Ridge.
:-) Andrew
I suppose tunneling under the Narrows would be easier than tunneling straight from Manhattan to Staten Island. Not that it'll happen, but it's fun to ponder.
Mark
Besides, tunnel stubs are already in place south of 59th St to connect to Staten Island (I guess somewhere around Stapleton).
I disagree, the Verrazano's dead weight loading is many times that of the ancient Manhattan or Williamsburg. You would not need a grade to begin in the area of 80th Street to make the bridge, even at 6%. The grade from West End to 4th Avenue is steeper than that.
Well then, maybe my idea is so far off the wall at that. Thanks my fellow piasan, you have just restored my faith in me as someone who knows a little of what the hell he is talking about.
Being a Bay Ridge resident all my life for at least some point of the year, I can attest to the V-Z. =).
I disagree, the Verrazano's dead weight loading is many times that of the ancient Manhattan or Williamsburg. You would not need a grade to begin in the area of 80th Street to make the bridge, even at 6%. The grade from West End to 4th Avenue is steeper than that.
I've been told it's impossible to put subway trains on the Verrazano Bridge -- but that nothing would forbid light rail, and considering the train lengths you get on SIRT, something like that would make more sense. Such a service would have to get itself to the Sea Beach cut, and there, meet Sea Beach trains for a cross-platform transfer.
You could cut into 4th Ave line at 92nd St or thereabouts and convert the Bay Ridge portion of the 4th Ave subway to light rail, or (better) follow the expressway, either el or as subway to Sea Beach. With some work, a light-rail to subway transfer at 59th is probably possible, but something near the Sea Beach 8th Ave station would probably be better.
That sounds good, lets do it!
I completely agree -- why not consider a light rail connection over the Verrazano Bridge to Bay Ridge? It would definitely shock the hell out of the evil spirit of Robert Moses to have a tracks on the Verrazano, the crown-jewel of his car-oriented public works projects!
I think having the Brooklyn-SI light rail connect to the N at 59th St would be better. Since the light rail would be replacing the R, you could make an easy cross-platform connection to the N at 59 St. Given the layout of the 8th Avenue station, it might be harder to build a connection to N train there. It would also require more on-street running to get from the Brooklyn side of the Verrazano to the 8th Avenue Station, even if it follows the Gowanus expressway. If you connect the light rail into the Bay Ridge portion of the 4th Avenue subway, you only need to have street-running on a small stretch of 92nd Street. The less street-running there is, the faster it will be.
K---you just let all the air out of my balloon and have said in a nice way that as an engineer I ain't worth beans. You're right. But it was a helluva idea anyway. OK?
BTW Fred Slept thru Staten island on the way back from our day trip to the Big Apple
You know the old saying---"Take the bus and leave the driving to us." Only this time it was a car and I had you, my good buddy, take the load off me by doing the heavy labor. I did thank you, didn't I?
You know, that was very possible, had not Bob Moses kept the TA off the bridge. A flying junction could have been made at 92nd and 4th, and 1/4 mile of new construction to the bridge leads. Oh well.
Moses? Oh yes, he is the guy who forced Walter O'Malley's hand by refusing to get him the decayed land around Atlantic and Flatbush for his new Brooklyn Dodgers stadium which resulted in the Bums leaving New York. Moses!!!! What a turkey.
Walter O'Malley was a bum in '57, and if he still were alive, would still be a bum. NL belongs in Brooklyn, no matter what.
They weren't forgotten (what was that place again - Oh Yeah) we are just waiting for the closing on the sale of SI to New Jersey (plus getting the rest of Ellis Island back).
Yes the span from Manhatthan to Staten Island is great.But there will be very few problems when New York county is connected to Richmond County.I have drew up 3 plans if the unexpected happens.
1-Connect the Second Avenue line with Staten ISland via Brooklyn at Henry street.
2-Build 2 connections with the 4(South of Bowling Green)and the 1(South of Rector Street).If both are finished in time you can see 8 trains to Staten Island by 2010.
3-If Staten Island does go to New Jersy then a commuter rail line can be built between Penn station,Hoboken and St George.
Don't forget to extend the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail across the Arthur Kill to Staten Island as well!
Mark
Speaking of pipe dreams, how's this for mine. The Sea Beach becomes an express, goes over the Manny B, terminates at Stillwell, and they fix the express tracks in both directions and call it the Brooklyn Cyclone Special and giving it the #44, my favorite number. Hell, Brighton Beach Bob will become a conservative Republican before than ever happens.
NEVER
Yes the span from Manhatthan to Staten Island is great.But there will be very few problems when New York county is connected to Richmond County.I have drew up 3 plans if the unexpected happens.
1-Connect the Second Avenue line with Staten ISland via Brooklyn at Henry street.
2-Build 2 connections with the 4(South of Bowling Green)and the 1(South of Rector Street).If both are finished in time you can see 8 trains to Staten Island by 2010.
3-If Staten Island does go to New Jersy then a commuter rail line can be built between Penn station,Hoboken and St George.
If you have any ideas e-mail me.
I thought Staten Island was the forgotten borough because a significant percentage of the people who live there WANT it to be "forgotten". The island seems more suburban than urban from what I saw of it (once), and the higher density that would come from a direct subway link to the island is what many of the people who moved there were trying to avoid.
In short, wouldn't a subway to Staten Island get NIMBYed to death even if you had a blank check from the federal, state, and city treasuries to pay for it?
I thought Staten Island was the forgotten borough because a significant percentage of the people who live there WANT it to be "forgotten". The island seems more suburban than urban from what I saw of it (once), and the higher density that would come from a direct subway link to the island is what many of the people who moved there were trying to avoid.
In short, wouldn't a subway to Staten Island get NIMBYed to death even if you had a blank check from the federal, state, and city treasuries to pay for it?
I'm far from an expert on Staten Island, but from what I've gathered, residents tend to be more oriented toward the city vs. the suburbs than was the case ten or twenty years ago. The old-time residents are becoming less dominant politically, demographically and culturally, as an influx of people from other boroughs (particularly Brooklyn) has increased the island's population. It's a reasonable assumption that many or most of these newcomers are being attracted more by Staten Island's lower-density housing choices and decent schools than by any aversion toward urban life.
It's hard to say whether a majority of Staten Islanders would favor a subway link if one became possible. No doubt the in-favor percentage is steadily increasing, but it still might be a minority viewpoint. I really don't know. But one thing I do know is that nothing's going to get built even if there is very strong majority support. In New York today, a very small but determined minority can stop major infrastructure projects, usually on some specious environmental grounds, even if the vast majority of the population is in favor.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's a bitter irony that environmental concerns are used to prevent subway construction when mass transit does so much good environmentally.
Mark
Yes... from my understanding,the Islanders didn't even want the bridge across the Narrows,in fear of the ''unhealthy elements''it would bring,and the change it would bring to their way of life. I would love to see a new line to S.I.,besides the fact it would save lots of time as far as commuting goes....less waiting and less transfering...no more 25 minute ferry ride to/from Manhattan,timing the boats so you won't miss it,avoiding the crowed express bus and the BQE[RUSH HOURS? WHATS RUSH HOUR?]But this,as I said before will never happen.sorry......Most S.I. want it,but most don't[the ones in power]so no,we wont see a SI subway......ever.
Speaking as a non-native Staten Islander, the people out here will NIMBY almost anything you propose. They have shot down local road improvements, Expressway improvements, a couple of major shopping developements, new ferry services, new schools (go figure) etc. They almost managed to get the mini-power-plant and the minor league stadium, too.
But yet they're the first to complain about being the "forgotten" borough.
The city's response:
SH*T! EVERY TIME WE TRY TO IMPROVE THINGS, YOU SHOOT THEM DOWN. AND WHEN WE DON'T BRING ANYTHING FORTH, YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING FORGOTTEN. STOP SUCKING UP THOSE FRESH KILLS FUMES YOU MORONS.
Amen...suck those gasses into plastic bags and burn em to cook your free range chickens. Peter
Today, It's thrills, chills and spills as we partake in yet another exciting
episode of
2001: A Train Odyssey
I was called for train M32261-12 on October 12th out of Glenn Yard. This day
's call time was 1215, on my rest. It was not the normal 1130 time as we
tied up too late this morning to get out at our regular time today. I had
marked to this assignment on a temporary vacancy as the regular Engineer was
on vacation. As some of you may recall, this 322 turn was my regular
assignment for much of last year.
When I arrived at Glenn, I discovered, to no surprise that the train was not
ready to go. Job 16 was finishing up a little switching and preparing to
double the train up to give it to the Carmen to work up and get the air
test. When all was said and done, we were driven up to the power by the
Yardmaster. After completing the inspection of my power and when the train
was sufficiently charged to the proper brake pipe pressure, we would perform
the air test.
After boarding and doing my normal in cab "pre-flight" routine, I went
outside to inspect the power. Today I would have the IC 1000, CN 5606 and a
dead in tow unit, the CN 4036. The 4036 would be set out at Markham to be
repaired at Woodcrest. It had been involved in a derailment and sustained
some damage.
As I inspected the power, I noticed or maybe heard would be the correct
term, air blowing in between the 5606 and 4036. Upon closer inspection I
discovered a serious air leak on the in the front brake pipe on the 5606. I
called for the Car Inspectors to take a look, as it was far more serious a
problem than just a bad gasket in the glad hand of the air hose itself.
Their inspection lead to the discovery of a cracked portion of the pipe just
below the angle cock that cuts the air in and out of the brake pipe. The
leak was significant as it resulted in a brake pipe leak of over 30 pounds
per minute. Leakage is not to exceed 3 pounds per minute on a locomotive per
Federal law. Needless to say, we weren't leaving like this.
The Carmen did not have the materials on hand to make the repairs. So after
the powers that be debated the issue for a few minutes, it was decided to
have us set out the 5606 and pick up the IC 9571 and 9623 to work in its
stead. Being that we had 121 cars, they did not want to send us out with
just the one working unit. In order to accomplish this maneuver, we would
have to break up the train. Our head end was up at the signal at 45 where we
depart Glenn. We had to make a cut and set the head end of the train into a
clear track and then head over towards the servicing tracks at Glenn to set
out the problem unit and pick up the replacement power.
After getting this all taken care of and the train put back together,
charged and air tested, we finally departed Glenn at 1445, just two and a
half hours after first going to work. Doesn't look like we'll meet the
schedule today.
After threading our way through the Chicago Terminal we finally wound up at
Markham some 32-rail miles away from Glenn. At Markham we normally set out
and pick up before heading south to Champaign. As we arrived here this day,
we learned the plans for us had changed dramatically. While we did make the
set out, instead of making the pick up we were instructed of a change in
plans. Yes once again, Plan A didn't have a chance anyway. Now, we would get
on different power altogether and get a grain train, the G84261-12.
So after making the set out and securing the inbound power, I wandered over
to my new power, the GT 5917 and GT 5920, a pair of well worn Grand Trunk
Western units. I discovered the headlight on the 5917 did not work on dim or
medium, only when set on bright. This is a failure and cannot be taken this
way. A call on the radio to Woodcrest brought them out to make the repairs.
Between being blocked by outbound train 194, a yard move and the headlight
problem, we were taking a real beating here at Markham. After about 20
minutes or so of fooling with it, Woodcrest managed to solve the headlight
problem and we were ready to go. The air test on the train was accomplished
while Woodcrest performed their ritual to make the headlight all better.
Their voodoo included sacrificing a Trainmaster to the railroad gods, a
ritual dance and some sort of chant only understood by mechanical department
personnel and the railroad gods. We finally departed Markham with a mere 55
loads of grain and headed south around 2000.
Conductor Valentino and myself were wondering what was the likelihood that
even on our short time remaining if we would get the surprise attack message
of "Stop at such and such and pick up 50 more loads of grain" enroute. We
have done it before, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they did it
tonight. However, it would not be the case as you'll discover next.
As I started by the Metra coach yard at Richton Park, in my rear view mirror
I observed a spray of sparks blast out of the exhaust stack of the trailing
5920 followed by alarm bells. This certainly cannot be good and upon
inspection of the 5920 after stopping at the Richton Park Metra station, I
discovered it was dead. Further inspection in the engine room showed all
kinds of steam blasting out the cooling water overfill pipe and cooling
water all over the engine room floor. The amount of steam was incredible. It
looked like one of those dream sequences you see on TV where there is that
fog all around the setting of the dream being shown. The first thing I
thought of was those old movies where tenants in an apartment during the
winter are banging on the pipes and yelling for the Super to give them more
steam. I thought "No need to worry, there is plenty of steam here tonight
folks."
I also heard a sound coming from the radiators that resembles the sound
bacon makes when frying in a skillet. I know this is really bad. It could be
an internal injury of sorts. In any event, the 5920 is now down for the
count. I inform all the necessary channels of our plight. After much debate
and several proposals (which included shoving the train all the way back to
Markham and taking the train with one engine all the way to Peotone), a
decision is finally made. We are instructed to cut away from the train, run
south some 2.6 miles or so to Stuenkel, cross over to track 2 and come back
north to Markham to get different power.
Here is where it starts to get fun. We have southbound Amtrak 59 in the
picture, northbound Amtrak 392 in the picture and the crew that was supposed
to originally get this train now getting our train at Markham. All this and
now only one clear track. Proving yet again how cost effective that decision
to remove track 3 between Vollmer Road and Stuenkel really was; it is paying
dividends tonight. Chicago North wants to know if we can make the move back
to Markham without delaying Amtrak 59. I assure him that we can and so we
expedite the move.
When all is said and done, we get different power altogether instead of just
changing out the bad order 5920. Now we have the IC 6015 and 6107. We head
back to our train, re-arm FRED and perform the required air and dump test
and depart. We are now getting on short time and it is a certainty we will
not make Champaign alive.
An uneventful trip south from here leads us to Ashkum where we head into the
siding. We are told that owing to congestion ahead, this will be as far as
we can go. At this point in time we had about 30 minutes to work, so we just
died a slow death here. All was not lost though as there is an Amoco station
across from where we are stopped. We strolled over and grabbed something to
munch on while waiting for the cab. Not exactly what one would call a hearty
dinner at midnight, but it was sustenance.
The cab arrived at about 0015 and once again we headed to Champaign on
rubber tires instead of steel wheels. We tied up at 0200 and day was done.
I later learned the failure on the 5920 was caused by a missing temperature
control box. This unit measures engine and cooling water temperature and
activates the cooling fans above the radiators as required to maintain the
safe and optimum temperatures necessary for the most efficient operation of
the locomotive. What essentially happened was the fans were not working at
all, so there was little, if any cooling available. The water rapidly
overheated and began to boil inside the radiator. When the temperatures
reached excessive levels, the hot engine protection device tripped and the
unit shut down automatically. This device helps prevent the engine from
burning itself up.
Woodcrest caught a huge break here though. The boiling water in the radiator
could have easily caused the radiators to rupture violently from the
incredible pressure inside. Fittings, soldered joints and couplings could
have also have burst. Fortunately, the overfill pipe helped to relieve some
of the pressure and the hot engine protective device worked as prescribed.
Had something cut loose and blown up, there would have been serious damage
done to the cooling system of the locomotive and most likely hell to pay.
And for those whose curiosity might be piqued, the 322 train we should have
taken wound up with 165 cars out of Markham. They passed us as we were
coupling back up to our train.
For those of you making the trek to Indianapolis Saturday for the Crossroads
of America Railroadiana Show, I look forward to seeing you all there.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001 by JD Santucci
This AM I spotted an individual taking photos of station booths and MVMs allegedly for a movie to be produced. We called stations ansd were instructed to call police.
In summary... do not take photos of the booth, inside of the MVM (if a maintainer has them open) or any restricted area. Police may be called to remove the photographer.
A booth contains quite a bit of communications equipment and sensitive material. We are quite paranoid about photos of as booth.
My suggestion--if you wish to take photos of a booth get a written permit and show it to us before you start.
I thought photography in the subway system was permitted for non-commercial purposes as long as no flashes, tripods, or the like were used. Has that changed?
How do I apply for a permit?
Allegedly for a movie implies allegedly commercial purposes.
We agents should always wary about who's taking pics of us at work. Maybe it's just a tourist snapping a shot for their photo album. Or a film producer getting background material for their next movie. But there is also the possibility that this person might be casing the booth with the possibilty of robbing it.
I'll admit it's a little far-fetched. But all agents should be aware that we're always being watched. The odds of it happening are maybe 1 in 1,000,000. But it's like Lotto. You never know!
I was in a booth robbery just over 5 years ago by 2 men. When I was told by a detective later that night that one of them was actually a woman, I remembered her hanging around the station a few times in the previous 2-3 weeks. She was in a word "UGLY". Since then I've always been aware of people watching and looking and taking pictures. It might be a set-up.
A booth robbery might be over in 10 minutes. But what happens afterwards goes on and on.
There are a lot of hungry folks out there. If they think you have money that can be had easily they'll try & take it from you.
Some of the TV shots of robbers & store owners shooting at each other is scary.
Mr t__:^)
I would understand if the TA had a policy of requiring photography permits -- but unless something's changed recently, the TA has no such policy. (Does the TA even have photography permits?) Why would the police remove me if I'm doing something perfectly legal?
There is always a feeling that we agents are being watched at work. Maybe it's being paranoid. But in some places that is exactly what happens. Most robberies happen because someone knows when a booth door is going to be opened. They wait for the right time to strike. Maybe the person taking pictures is making up a gallery of us so that "others" will know who are the regular people. One thing that scares me when I'm off-duty is when someone says "I know you! You're the clerk at such and such a booth". I don't want to take a chance on being robbed on duty today.
As to your contention of "perfectly legal". You can go to an air force base on visitor's day. You can take all the pictures you want of this and that. But if you start taking pictures of pilots just before they leave for Afganistan, the MP's will be on in a NY minute taking the film out of your camera.
I understand where you're coming from. As I said, I would understand (and comply) if he TA were to change its photography policy.
The police have the right to ask me why I'm taking pictures of the reconstructed booth at Wall Street. Given my answer, they would have no right to confiscate the film.
Self has a MTA Photo Permit.
(yes, Virginia, they DO exist)
Where and how do I apply? Is there a fee?
How about if you take pictures of train yards, swithches, etc.
Uhmm... hmm...
Guess what?
If someone wants to get a photo of a booth, they can easily go to any station that has a part time entrance and shoot it while the booth is closed.
I asked this question about a month ago, but my friend never went. Except for London and Paris, where would be the best place to video trains and trams in Europe in the winter? Berlin is still on his list
Actually, I would say Aix la Chapelle (or Aachen). I once, in my youth, was caught there overnight and spent the night watching trains from a platform bench seat.
I still remember the Paris to Moscow overnight express: the front of the train consisted of new, French wagons-lit. There were cars of various nationalities following with the final cars being Soviet 3rd class! Quite a difference in comfort levels!
Since this is also a border station, there are lots of opportunities to view locomotive switching.
Enjoy!
John
Where is AAchen near
Wouldn't such a train have to switch trucks at some point due to the wider Russian track gauge?
I know this has been discussed in the past, but I can't find it. What are the colors and symbols used by each yard? They appear under the car number on much of the rolling stock.
Only the IRT (A divison) uses them. Pre 9/11 they were:
Yellow-Pelham (6)
Blue-Lenox & Linovia (3 and S)*
Green-239 (2 and 5)
Black-E 180 & Unionport (5)
Red-238 (1/9)
Orange-Jerome (4)
Purple and black or silver-Corona (7)
*Blue on the R142/R142A indicates a brake adjustment, not Lenox Yard.
Many cars from the 1/9 and 3 have been shuffled due to the reroutes. Some R62As are on the 2. Some Pelham cars are at Corona.
Very nice rundown.
Bill
Red: 240St
Blue: Livonia
Yellow: Pelham
Green: E.180St/Unionport
Black: 239St
Orange: Mosholu/Jerome
Pruple/Yellow with Purple diamond/Black with Purple diamond: Corona
The R62A's that are used on the 2 are returned to the 3 line upon reaching 241St. There are NO R62A's cars at Corona at this present time.
Some of those Pelham cars at Corona now have Corona stickers on them. 9550-1 have double-high black bars with a single normal-sized purple diamond.
All the Pelham-Corona cars are R36 mainline cars.
I've noticed this, but why do MainLine cars' lights flicker over a 3rd rail gap?
Also, an unrelated question:
How often does NYCT disconnect and reconnect cars? (I'm sure it's not humping because railcars do not move on their own, as TD mentioned, none of the T/A's cars are humped, ever, because they don't have the equipment to do it.)
R36MLs 9534/9535 9542/95439546/9547 all have the normal size black stickers/purple diamonds as well as the American flags under neath soon ALL ML R 36s will have the stickers changed.........again.
WHat are the ind symbols(i know that they arent used anymore)
what happened to Subway Q&A? anyone know its new time?
If were lucky, they cancelled that lame excuse for entertainment
Peace,
ANDEE
True, it's corny, but you know you watch it! (Me, too)...
Never miss it 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sat., Nov.10 9:30 PM
Sun. 2:30 AM
Mon. 1:30 AM; 2:30 AM
Tues. 10:30 PM
Wed. 1:30 AM; 10:30 PM
Thurs. 1:30 AM
i thougt it came on at 10:30 every weekday night
Some segments are enjoyable, such as the one where that schmuck taped from Jamaica yards in the car wash with a R46 over his shoulder.
funny the 1/9 people seem t dislike the 9 skip stop service, but the J and Z riders liked it. It was soo missed when the J had to make all stops to 95th st brooklyn. Also without the Z, the J makes all stops making it even slower than it already is. i love the J because its outside, but without the skip stop, its already ridiculously slow because of all those timers, especially on Fulton st curve. Anyways if the 9 returns, great. if not, it will be sorta missed. Alot of Motormen on the 1, say it was better with 3 or 4 trips to south ferry, is better than 2 to new lots.
The 1/9 and J/Z are different animals. The J/Z is longer, so skip-stop saves about five minutes rather than the two on the 1/9, but at headways on the J/Z aren't much longer than on the 1/9. (On the 1/9, average ride time plus average wait time is longer with skip-stop than without at every skip-stop station. Only the all-stop stations benefit -- by no more than two minutes or so. Most passengers board at skip-stop stations; in fact, some of the skip-stop stations are more popular than their all-stop neighbors.) J/Z riders near Jamaica also have the option of backtracking on an outbound J and returning on an E (which might be worth it if they just miss an inbound train); 1/9 riders have no such options.
More substantial than skip-stop was the temporary loss of the Myrtle-Marcy express run.
The timers at Fulton Street don't know or care about skip-stop.
If the 9 never returns, good riddance. It was an interesting experiment but it did more harm than good.
If the 9 never returns, good riddance. It was an interesting experiment but it did more harm than good.
I think a certain SubTalker would disagree with you. What sort of name is (1) South Ferry ( )?
For the time being he's (1) New Lots ().
Maybe we'll see something like (6) South Ferry (S) or (5) South Ferry (6).
I certainly agree, I have said it before, I'm at a skip/stop station, the furtherest north and it really drove me crazy. The MOST frustrating was on the few occasions I decided to take the 9 as it came in and go to 242 and turn around to my stop at 238. The train would get to 238 and stop for 2 or 3 minutes due to congestion at the 242 terminal, but since it is a 9, would they open the doors??? NO!!!
I agree, goodbye and good ridence to the 9.
And you at least gained a little bit of benefit from skip-stop service, even if it didn't make up for the additional wait time. Those poor guys at 145th had to wait twice as long for a ride that wasn't a second quicker.
I really wonder how the all-stop stations were picked. Certainly not station popularity -- see this post.
I didn't like the 1/9 skip stops to begin with so I'm glad that over. As for what was better 3 Trips to South Ferry or 2 trips to New Lots I have to say 3 to South Ferry. No schedule had 4 trips but I did volunteer once to do the Extra 4th trip and that feels equal to a New Lots 2 tripper.
Mapquest now has aerial photos of major U.s. cities, including New York. You can zoom in close enough to actually make out individual trains in yards, stations on els, etc. To get to a shot you're interested in, start by entering a zip code and then use the street maps to locate your location. Click the tab above the map labelled "Aerial Photo". You can pan and zoom just like on the street maps. It's really cool.
Try the Corona Yard / Shea Stadium / Flushing Meadows Park area, zipcode 11355.
I prefer the photos on the Microsoft Terraserver.
Really? I think Mapquest has the better photos...
Plus, you can zoom in on mapquest photos and they get more detailed.
The Terraserver has 1 meter pics of the entire united states and many other parts of the world along with an acompanying USGS map.
The Terraserver was WAY OFF when I looked at my own neighborhood. None of (latitude/longitude, zip code, town name, sat photo, USGS map) matched.
I've never had any problems with their search functions.
Hey that's cool! I can see my car parked in my back yard!
I even see a bus pulling into the bus stop on my corner.
I'm surprised that the Brighton line is so hard to make out though.
A few years ago I took a 35mm shot on a clear day, flying over Brooklyn on a flight out of JFK. Blew it up and was able to clearly make out lots of detail, and follow the Brighton and Culver lines.
Does anyone know how recent the Mapquest pix are? The ones on Terraserver say 1994.
I took a ride on the Subway today, and noticed something about the Broadway BMT. The nicknames of the N, R, Q, and W should be this:
N-never on time
R-rarely on time
W-whenever it feels like coming
and last but not least,
Q-questionable- trying to find out what is an express, and what is a local when they both are express in Manhattan.
NRWQ, Never Runs Weally Qwick? ;-)
I didn't know Elmer Fudd was from Brooklyn :-)
I think Elmer's from Boston, he and Baba Wawa talk very similiar :-)
How's about an "O" for originality?!
But the W is really a T in disguise, giving:
Never Really Quick or on Time
Thank you Elmer Fudd.
OH, you wascal you!
The "W" is for Weak, Weary and Worthless. The slowest train in existence, bar none. Even locals with flat wheels and 9 dead motors can beat it.
wayne
>> ...and what is a local when they both are express in Manhattan. <<
I know it's very difficult for some Manhattanites to believe this, but the entire world does not revolve around Manhattan. (events of 9/11 notwithstanding)
The Q-Circle is the Brighton Local, all stops on the Brighton line in Brooklyn from DeKalb to Stillwell.
The Q-Diamond is the Brighton Express, making express stops in Brooklyn from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach.
As one other SubTalker whose handle escapes me at the moment once noted here...Brighton trains typically run express in Manhattan, whenever and wherever they may roam.
But in any event, I'll add my suggestion for "Q": Quirky
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
What not "Quicky"?
Why not "Quick"? Once across the bridge, the Q is at 57th Street in no time.
And across the bridge the other way, the Brighton express gets to Brighton Beach pretty quick as well.
Quirky, because it runs with quirky subway cars, the slant R40s. But then again so does the N.
Q-questionable- trying to find out what is an express, and what is a local when they both are express in Manhattan.
Like the 5 and <5>, also both express in Manhattan. And the 6, <6>, 7, and <7>, which are all local in Manhattan.
But the < Q > is shown on station signs. The < 5 >, < 6 > and < 7 > are not although they do appear on some platform signs.
Speaking for the W and Q,those 2 lines are one of the best subway lines in the city.
The R and N is a different story(especially the N).
THE W ONE OF THE BEST?! I don't know about your experiences, but from my experiences, the W is the WORST line out there. The N maybe off schedule but it comes everyday at the same time reagardless of whether or not it's supposed to be there at that time.
Those who ride either of the 2 lines, I am sure feel the opposite is true. There is a old saying" "The other guys grass looks a lot greener than your own".
I was at Metro North's Open House last month, and I saw a couple of guys wearing NYCTA grey T-shirts with the old MTA logo in the background with the R-68 car in front of it. Is that something that anybody can purchase at the Transit Museum's gift shop, or is that for the employees only?
Was it a realy big, slow moving guy waring the R-68 shirt ... sorry couldn't resist.
The TA Museum has a number of T-shirts for sale.
Mr t__:^)
Yep, and I picked up an A shirt this time around. Not to mention one of those subway map shower curtains.
Fred can take his N T Shirt out of Temp Retirement, while my D is in retirement, When will they make a Q T Shirt, even better a Nostalgic one with Q Triplex bumping heads with Standard. Saying BMT Lines
I'm going to wear my N tee shirt this weekend. The Sea Beach rides again.
I hope ytou washed it since August
ROTFLMAO
What you say???
You have no chance to survive make your time.
Will someone please tell me what the hell ROTFLMAO means? I'm starting to think that maybe I'm an imbecile. Help me quickly.
Surely, it stands for "that ROTten FLake MAO"
Excuse me but this quip of mine is so funny I'm "Rolling On The Floor Laughing My -ss Off".
There is nothing like a good laugh Alan. Every time I read one of Brighton Express Bob's inane posts I roll on the floor, too.
Inane or insane? Give it up Fred or the Onions will come
I think they still sell D shirts going Bronx to Brooklyn, will they change the shirts?
Yes, I just bought one.
I wish they'd put out an A shirt with an R-10 image. Heck, they put an R-10 on one of the Subway Series shirts last fall, and the A didn't figure at all.
Dear Folks,
There is no "they" it's me and my company the NYC Subway Line.
Don't buy the counterfeits. Tell me where they are, please!
All of the royalties on the sale of my products go to support
the NY Transit Museum!
How do I know if it's a counterfeit? My shirt has NYC Subway Line on the back and the NYC Subway Line tag on the inside. N in yellow, C in blue. One thing though, I feel like the design's going to wash off. It's a little rough to the touch, is it supposed to be like that or is it supposed to be completly smooth?
The counterfeits just say "NYC" on the back and used to have a fake
MetroCard label. Now have only a Delta or other t-shirt label.
I haven't made the C for years. It used to say just "New York City
Subways" under the C image. Is that the one you have? Any other
is a counterfeit.
As far as the printing goes, it has to be "heavy" to get a bright
white on the black or navy shirts.
By the blue C, I mean the C on the tag. Sorry for the confusion.
Oh, sorry! Sounds like mine, definately. Thanks for buying the
legitimate article!
Sorry. I stand corrected. Let me rephrase that: I'd like to see an A shirt with an R-10 image. If it doesn't happen, it's OK.
I hated the R-10 when they first came out, the window was to high to see out of.
That wasn't a problem for me by the time I became immersed in the subway and started standing at the railfan window.
Dear Bob,
When I first started making the shirts, I ran into a roadblock -
what's the Subway equivalent? - on saying anything about the
BMT, IRT or IND lines. It just isn't politically correct anymore
according to the MTA. We're all one subway system it seems!
On the Q shirt, maybe next year...I'm up to my eyeballs with
13 train lines in 3 colors and 8 sizes.
Keep buying those shirts, guys!
When I first started making the shirts, I ran into a roadblock -
what's the Subway equivalent?
Triparm :)
Are you saying that the MTA refuses to sell shirts that mention IRT, etc.? They haven't had to worry about competition since 1940! ;)
I think they were trying to stamp out the concept of the 3 separate
lines back there in 1996 when I wanted to make reference to trains
as IRT's, BMT's etc.
Tell them History Man, History
While you are at it how about a nostalgia shirt make specially for me. I will pay for it whatever the price. A light green shirt that says #4 Sea Beach and the train in dark green with a light red outline. I can see me wearing that shirt around town, thinking all the while that I am a big man.
Got my "A" t-shirt from a guy selling out of a suit case in the Coney Island crew area last year. It hasn't shrunk THAT much.
Today have my Bridgeport Bluefish (baseball) t-shirt on under my dress shirt ... for those that don't know I got to watch M-N commuters, FL9s, Amtraks (meatballs & HHP-8s) AND a baseball game those two nights.
Mr t__:^)
I got lost in GCT... where's the Transit museum store?
On the upper platfrom level Southwest end of arcade.
They have a London exhibit currently, is quite nice.
Mr t__:^)
... arcade? Does it matter which subway line I get off? Is it closer to one than another?
The shop is next to the "Station Master's Office" so you can ask
any of the employees at the station where that is!
Would that be in the actual Train terminal of Grand Central where the Metro North and Amtrack trains are or is it still part of the subway system?
Guess what I am doing now? You got it, I am writing you and everyone else online this post. Guess what I am wearing as I write this? You got it, my N Sea Beach shirt----dark navy and yellow. Quite a sight on Sea Beach Fred.
Fred,
Thanks for the mention, great to be back online, though I know it is going to take a long time to get back up to speed.
BTW, check your e-mail
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Hey, have you checked out the Favorite Subway Cars thread? I put in a good word for you; I knew which ones you liked!:-)
Thank you, Sea Beach Fred!
Remember the Holidays are coming so that you can make sure that all
of your N line friends have the proper apparel for their commuting!
Subway grrl
I got the t shirt for Fred a year and half ago. My D is obsolete so I have to wait until the Q comes out, another suggestion is to make one with the system map. I have them from Boston, Chicago, DC Metro, and London with their maps on them
It's in the actual terminal on the shuttle (west) side.
Dear Steve,
Thank you for your purchase of an A train shirt from the NY Transit
Museum Gift Shop. Did you see the new Canal St. shirts there?
How about Q T Shirts. Q Brighton Line
Can't say I did, to tell you the truth. That A shirt is nice. It will be part of my standard garb when railfanning in the future. That and my Mets jacket...
The "A" Train? Well......ahhhhh ok!. The Mets jacket? ALLRIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know how I feel about the A.:-)
And you know how I feel about the N. Tell you what. Next time let's see if we can be in New York at the same time and here's what we can do. We can ride your A out to Rockaway Beach and take the amusement park there and have some lunch. Then we can get back where we can catch the N and head out to Coney Island. OK, so we walk a few blocks to build up an appetite. We ride the Cyclone there, eat dinner at Nathan's and go to a Brooklyn Cyclones game. How does that sound?
Terrific. We'll get the rest of the gang together as well. I'll pass on the Cyclone, though. Hopefully the N will still have some R-32s.
How will he get from the A to the N there is no direct connection except at 42nd St and a long walk,
Good question.
Not to mention, a long ride... how about A - Jay St for F to 9th to something to N (if weekday). Or take the F straight to CI and take the N coming back.
That s Fred for you,
Just as I thought. Well I always believed in my gut that a Sea Beach man could outrun, outwalk, outwit, and outclass some minor league Brighton or A man. A long walk from the A to the N on 42nd Street. Is that a fact? What a bunch of wusses. I just walked four and half miles and it was no sweat. How long is the walk there, about two tenths of a mile. Stop making like Molly Putz. Give me an effort. A good way to walk off our lunch. Yeeeeee, what a nerd.
Aaaah, that walk from the A to the N at 42nd St. isn't that bad. Been there, done that many times.
That's more like it Steve. Tell that lazy friend of ours that he can do it, too. Well, maybe he can. Seriously, we have to get our dates together so a whole bunch of us can be in NY at the same time to really have a railfan blast.
With a fun pass, you get off at Jay Street, walk 1 block and catch the N at Boro Hall to 86th St, saves the trip to the City. And I am not lazy. Just the A and n do not really have a transfer point. The walk is 1 block thru 42nd Street
Catch the N at Lawrence instead of Court. The Jay Street station is directly above the Lawrence platform.
Hm... then why don't they make a connection for transfers? I think it's be quite convenient.
a transfer is planned. Design and construction are in the 5 year plan.
I just hope this transfer, and the Bleeker/Broadway-Lafayette transfer, go through. The transfers won't solve the Manhattan Bridge and overcrowded Lex problems. But they will alleviate them, on the cheap, by allowing transfers to the F and the 6.
You may remember that with the N and the R gone, whole trainloads were getting off the BMT to take the F at 4th Avenue and 9th Street, a miserable change with all those stairs. Well, having discovered a new route, guess what? People are still taking it in droves!
A Lawrence transfer would not only have fewer stairs, but also a choice of more trains. IND riders going to the toe of Lower Manhattan could take the M, R or the N -- the latter bypasses 9th Street at peak. BMT riders could get to the A/C as well as the F.
One wonders what the history of Lawrence St. is. It was once massively improved, probably when Jay St. was built, almost as if a connection was planned. But why the two stations never joined has never been explained.
As for Smith-9th St, this is one station that cries out for massive improvements -- elevators and escalators down to the 4th Ave platforms. It's not as if this is an expensive neighborhood. Just rip out a few of the grungy buildings to give access.
When you check out the B'way-Lafayette station, you also wonder why a transfer to Prince St. was never built.
And finally, I wonder why some developer has not suggested the city condem much of the 6thAv/Waverly/Christopher triangle, build a massive new north entrance to the 6th Av station (into the middle mezzanine) with a transfer corridor to Christopher St. For a better entrance up there, it's worth seeing a very tall apartment building go up.
Oops. I said "As for Smith-9th St". I of course meant 4th Av/9th St.
When the systems were built, they were under different ownership, and had very few free transfers between the 3 different systems.
Very few transfers and those that you could get weren't easy to access. BTW, Where were they?
When are you talking about. In the 50s I remember as follows E.NY-Bdwy Junction all 3 lines, Franklin/Fulton BMT=IND:. Boro Hall BMT/IRT : Coney Island/W 8th BMT/IND: Essex=Delancy BMT/IND Fulton-Nassau All: 14th Union Station IRT/BMT in fact 8th and 6th 14th St IND/BMT Times Sq IRT/BMT ONLY no connection to 8th Ave. 59th/Columbus IRT/IND 59-Lex/IRT-BMT: Queensboro Plaza IRT/BMT Roosevelt-71st ALL: 168 Wash Hts IRT/IND Yankee Stadium IND/IRT 155th-8th Ave(Polo Grounds) IND to Shuttle I can t really think of any other. There was no free transfer at Atlantic Ave/Pacific Street. 4th Ave/9th St: 6th Ave-42nd to 7 Train. Canal from BMT to IRT but from BMT to BMT there was. Rockaway was double fare south of Howard Beach. No transfer at New Utricht and 62nd St. Remember this was in the 50s that i am talking about. Only free transfer to bus/trolley was at Rockaway Pkwy and only to the B42. There were many intra division free transfers though
Lawrence wasn't even an original BMT station, which explains the lack of tiling. It was added in 1924 to the dual bores.
Then when the IND came through, the ceiling over part of the platform was replaced.
It does have a large mezzanine by BMT standards, but I don't think that has anything to do with the IND upstairs.
Wow, that's news to me. Why was it added? Overcrowding at Dekalb?
It's a mystery to me. I'd love to find out. Probably simply to shorten the distance between stations, although in that case one must wonder why no intermediate station was planned from the start.
When you check out the B'way-Lafayette station, you also wonder why a transfer to Prince St. was never built.
'Cause they interchanged it with the southbound direction of the Bleecker Street IRT instead. Which reminds me ... anyone know the status of the proposed connection between Bwy/Laf and NORTHBOUND Bleecker? This has been much discussed and I think was in some capital program, but haven't heard an update lately.
And finally, I wonder why some developer has not suggested the city condem much of the 6thAv/Waverly/Christopher triangle, build a massive new north entrance to the 6th Av station (into the middle mezzanine) with a transfer corridor to Christopher St. For a better entrance up there, it's worth seeing a very tall apartment building go up.
Interesting idea -- most usage presumably would be southbound Eighth Ave lines to NJ-bound PATH at night, vice versa in the morning, since Sixth Ave lines interchange at Herald Square as do Broadway BMT lines. Need to do a traffic analysis on whether there's enough traffic to make that worthwhile.
However, two major problems: First, Ninth Street PATH station has small platforms, unlike 33rd Street terminus. Not sure it could take a lot more people. Crowding at Christopher post-9/11 is already REALLY hideous, with two-block-long lines just to get INTO the station (though why they don't use stations further uptown is beyond me).
Second, that part of the Village is a historic district and pretty lowscale. You'd never get a high-rise in there. Getting a six-story building on the Sixth Avenue east blockfront between Waverly and Washington Place took several design reviews. Without getting into a whole argument about historic districts, NIMBYs, etc. -- this one would have to be solely funded by the transit agencies involved. And I just don't see it as a major priority.
You could probably do at West Fourth what they did at Bleeker after the IRT platform extension to create a transfer -- just bang a hole in the wall, in this case from the mid-level mezzanine between the upper Eighth Ave. tracks and lower Sixth Ave. tracks to the PATH platform, and a fare-control area for PATH could be put at the end of that mezzannie.
The problem, though, would be the same as at Bleeker Street. A connection to the uptown PATH platform would be easy, and would be a great help for AM commuters coming in from New Jersey. But to hook up the N.J.-bound platform, an overpass or underpass (probably the latter from the Sixth Ave. level) would have to be built to get people from the IND station to the PATH platform.
You could probably do at West Fourth what they did at Bleeker after the IRT platform extension to create a transfer -- just bang a hole in the wall, in this case from the mid-level mezzanine between the upper Eighth Ave. tracks and lower Sixth Ave. tracks to the PATH platform, and a fare-control area for PATH could be put at the end of that mezzannie.
It didn't think this was possible, but I like the idea. Actually, you could see if reversing the direction of PATH traffic at PM rush is possible (is it?).
PATH's 9th St. station has only an island platform.
You would need some way to go around the uptown tracks anyway.
I don't see what's so hard about the Bleecker connection.
The lower IND mezzanine is below IRT track level. Just dig out a new passageway under the IRT and ramp it up to platform level parallel to the track. ADA compliance for the entire station complex would only require three elevators: one from the street to the upper mezzanine outside fare control, one from the upper mezzanine directly to the the southbound IND platform, and one from the upper mezzanine to the northbound IND platform with an intermediate stop at the lower mezzanine.
I don't see what's so hard about the Bleecker connection.
Agreed ... my question was more about, Are there dedicated $$$ to do the northbound connection? When?
I don't think the rehab of the IND station a few years ago included ADA compliance, though. Would they have to make the whole complex ADA compliant if they tied in the northbound? Not sure if it counts as a "main transfer point" station in the TA's compliance plan ....
Anyone?
Several years ago I was working the Token Booth there. I had a chance after work one afternoon to look at the closed area running under the IRT going to what would be the uptown side. When I got to the otherside there was a mezzazine. My impression of the area was that it had a token booth there at one time. There were some staircases going upstairs. But it didn't seem to go to the uptown platform at Bleecker. It looked like street stairways. Even though I had a flashlight, I couldn't see too much. The stairways looked blocked off and the lighting was dim. Maybe there was a provision for a connection to the uptown platform. It would be a good walk. At least a long block.
What's this? There already is an IRT underpass, but it's closed off?!
YES!
I don't remember any connection at Bleeker. The underpasses on the Lex south of GC that I can recall were at Canal, Astor Place and 28th St.
I don't remember any connection at Bleeker. The underpasses on the Lex south of GC that I can recall were at Canal, Astor Place and 28th St.
The underpass at Astor is long gone. I don't remember any at 28th either. There are connections between uptown and downtown at the express stations - 14th and the Bridge.
For the record, NYCDOT's goof-up notwithstanding, it's Bleecker. (The errant blades, installed to identify the NoHo historic district, were quickly replaced.)
Mark
I used the underpass at 28th once, and it, like the one at Astor Place (and on the BMT at 23rd St.) was a casualty of the high-crime days of the 1980s. Back when they were open, the NYCTA would only operate one token booth on weekends at those stations. The other booth would either be an "iron maiden" token entrance, or passengers would have to go to the other side of the street, use the token booth there, and then use the underpass to get back to the side of the tracks they wanted (IIRC, the 28th St. station had its uptown booth open, while at the 23rd St. station the downtown booth was the one that was open. Not sure about Astor Place...)
For the record, NYCDOT's goof-up notwithstanding, it's Bleecker. (The errant blades, installed to identify the NoHo historic district, were quickly replaced.)
Not quickly enough:
Nice!
The green sign in front of CBGBs was also misspelled at some point.
I wish I'd taken a photo of that...
Too bad that these signs don't go through a proofreader first.
At the Kosciuszko St. Station on the J line at the north end, one of the signs says Layfayette Av. And there's a sign in Queens that says Metroplitan Av. I could go on and on.
My favorite typo is Broadway on the G.
One of the white on black tiles says "Brodaway". Kevin Walsh's picture of this is on the G line page on this site.
How did mispelled Broadway get passed the proofers? Brodaway, Rockaway, whatever...........
There was no doubt one at 28th Street. I used to use it everyday to get from the Northbound platform to an entrance to the New York Life Building on the Southbound platform. Why did they close it?
Muggings,
rapeings,
Graffiti,
urinations
dumps,
Busted lights,
Gays at play,
loitering.
Enought reasons?
Gays at play,
Uhhh ... how bout just "people having sex"? Somehow I strongly doubt that gay men were the ONLY people doing things that shocked people.
OK?
MTA has built a communications room and some other facilities, where the Downtown entrance to the underpass was, there's still some construction going on at the Uptown side.
Arti
Any idea when it was last in use? Why wasn't this ever used to connect to the northbound 6?
If ADA compliance is deemed unnecessary at this station, instead of a ramp from the underpass to the platform, a shorter staircase could be used, to connect to a new platform directly across from the southbound platform. The old extension to the north would be abandoned.
Someone posted here a few months ago about some sort of connection between Lex/63 and Lex/60. Where else are there secret, off-limits connections where publicly accessible connections might come in handy?
If I had to make a guess, I'd say the area has been closed off since before the Christie St connection was built. The booth that might have been there was probably N520. Probably it was never connected because TA couldn't purchase the land underground. It took a long time to hook up a transfer from Lexington/53 to 51/Lexington.
If the N/B platform can be built to the underpass, it'll depend on who owns the land. And I doubt if TA will get it easily.
A transfer from 63/Lexington to Lexington/60? It's possible. I doubt if people would like to walk 3 blocks underground to get to one from the other. People would be complaining about the distance. They complain now when I work the booth and tell them the 4, 5, 6, N and R trains are 3 blocks south of the station. They don't like the walk upstairs and I don't think they'd like to walk it underground.
Why does the TA need to purchase land to extend a platform? Is boring a tunnel totally impractical?
I would very much like to see a detailed history of station passageways.
A three-block walk is far from ideal but it's better than no transfer at all. It would still be better than the 41st Street passageway from 7th to 8th (especially the transfer from the northbound IND to the shuttle, or more realistically to the BMT).
Why?
If TA extends a platform thru someone's basement without telling the landlord beforehand, it should be an interesting day in court.
Boring a tunnel is easy. Deciding what to do (and doing) with the utilities in its way is another thing. Especially if a transfer tunnel is build under Layfayette from Houston to Bleecker.
Well, obviously, if there's an actual basement where the platform would need to go, than that's a problem. Utilities hadn't occurred to me. That station is close to the surface.
Well, obviously, if there's an actual basement where the platform would need to go, than that's a problem. Utilities hadn't occurred to me. That station is close to the surface.
I'd always assumed that any connection would be built under SIDEWALKS. Older buildings may have basement vaults extending out under the sidewalk -- the old NYT building (now the triangular billboard support housing a Warner Bros. store in Time Sq.) had one that was several times the footprint of the actual tower -- and in that nabe, you might have to use some of that space.
Interesting question: Are sidewalk vaults under the city's sidewalks eminent-domainable? More easily than actual property?
I had been assuming the same at first, but I don't know if Lafayette Street is wide enough that four tracks and two platforms all fit between the building lines.
Eminent domain can be used for just about anything, but (as those who are familiar with my rants on other fora are aware) I'm not a big fan of eminent domain at all. Granted, the subway relies on it relatively infrequently.
I had been assuming the same at first, but I don't know if Lafayette Street is wide enough that four tracks and two platforms all fit between the building lines.
My comment was more about the ramp that would (I assume) have to be built between the east end of the IND platform and the south end of the IRT northbound platform a couple of blocks north. Had assumed it could go mostly under sidewalks, but perhaps not -- they tend to be narrower down there.
Anyone got a drawing of the layout of those two stations ???
>>> Are sidewalk vaults under the city's sidewalks eminent-domainable? More easily than actual property? <<<
In general, property lines run to the center of a street, with an easement granted for the street itself. Therefore a vault under the sidewalk is the actual property of the adjacent property owner. Eminent domain requires the payment of "just compensation" for the taking of the property. Legal battles arise when a property owner and the government entity cannot agree on what the value is for the property that the government wants.
I have been away from NY for some time now, but as I remember from the 50s, because of the lack of alleys many commercial buildings took their deliveries of bulk items by way of an elevator in the sidewalk. In that case, the loss of the vault under the sidewalk would greatly diminish the value of the building.
Tom
Actually, where the Bleecker Street station is on the south side of the street, and where any new ramp from the uptown platform to the IND would go would be under a little triangular sliver of land bordered by Houston on the south Bleecker on the north, and the converging Lafayette and Mulberry streets on the west and east -- In fact, the Bleecker St. uptown entrance is acually more on Mulberry Street than it is on Lafayette, because the streets are so close together at that point.
Given that small piece of land, and the limited usage that can be gotten out of it, arranging an easement for a new access ramp for the uptown No. 6 train shouldn't be that hard, unless the property owner wanted to try and pull some type of extortion game (which would be tough, once the judge or arbiter got a look at the parcel of land involved, part of which at one time was only used for a gas station).
Huh. Last time I was down there (a few years ago) there was a building on that plot. Is it gone now ???
The building on the south (Houston St.) side of the plot is still there, enough to block out the view of the uptown No. 6 entrance at Bleecker and Mulberry (I had to point a couple to it because they couldn't see the entrance from Houston and Lafayette sts.). But the area where the triangle comes together at Bleecker, Lafayette and Mulberry was at one time (and still may be) a gas station.
But the area where the triangle comes together at Bleecker, Lafayette and Mulberry was at one time (and still may be) a gas station.
It's not a gas station any longer.
Mark
>>> Why does the TA need to purchase land to extend a platform? Is boring a tunnel totally impractical? <<<
I guess you are not a property owner. The TA cannot bore a tunnel under some one else's property without compensating the owner, either by purchasing an easement, or possibly by eminent domain. In any case, they cannot bore a tunnel wherever and whenever they want.
Tom
Just FYI, relatively few Manhattan residents own property.
But someone owns it, and the TA needs the easement from the owner, whoever it may be.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was responding to his first sentence: "I guess you are not a property owner."
A good 20 years ago, I noticed an area at the east end of the mezzanine of the B'way-Lafayette station closed off with a steel fence. It was very dim. It also extended *beyond* where one comes out from the Bleecker Lex platform, and apparently, beyond the Lex line itself. There was an old fashioned painted sign indicating some sort of exit, but I forget the street name. As I recall, this area later on became closed off.
Yes, there are lots of mysteries in the stations.
A good 20 years ago, I noticed an area at the east end of the mezzanine of the B'way-Lafayette station closed off with a steel fence. It was very dim. It also extended *beyond* where one comes out from the Bleecker Lex platform, and apparently, beyond the Lex line itself. There was an old fashioned painted sign indicating some sort of exit, but I forget the street name. As I recall, this area later on became closed off.
I gotta think SOMEONE on SubTalk knows the answer to this one. What is this area? When was it built (IND construction)? How much of it could be used for the long-desired Bway-Lafayette/Bleecker northbound interchange ???
As a kid going to school, I would routinely get off at Jay Street and walk one short block down Willoughby to get to Lawrence Street. Since I had a school pass I could get away with it. I always wondered why the MTA never built a free transfer between Jay and Lawrence. Looking back on it now, my best guess was because Lawrence's island platform may be too narrow to handle that transfer. Still, it's good thing to hear that the MTA will finally put a transfer between those two stations.
They should then go from the bridge street side of the lawrence street station, and go one more block to Hoyt street! One problem with the F train has always been that there is no way to transfer to anything useful (besides the A,C).
All the stations are so close together in downtown brooklyn, you could practically have a catacomb of transfers going to any line you like. Care to imagine transfering from Borrough Hall(4,5) all the way to DeKalb, anyone?
The M/N/R would stop three times in the same station complex!
"This is Court Street. Transfer is available to the N, R, 1, 2, 4, 5, A, C, F, M, N, R, 1, 2, M, N, Q, and R trains."
And the G would still miss out!
Having a catacomb of transfers would be insane (in a good way). The M,N, and R trains stopping three times in the same complex kinda kills that need.
You're right about the Culver Line being isolated in terms of its transfers. Beside the fact that it does not have express service, that is another reason why it doesn't have as high a ridership as it could.
The Lawrence Street connection has several advantages, not only for Culver riders, but Fulton Ave riders as well:
1. If they ever decide to run a Culver Express, those riders on that train can transfer at Jay to a train to take them to stops south of Fulton Street in lower Manhattan. People that have read my posts know that I'm a big supporter of having a Culver Express.
2. A Jay-Lawrence connection is probably more convenient than a 4 Ave-9th Street connection. It basically involves some of the same trains and you do not need to travel through a set of stairs.
3. It makes getting the A in Brooklyn much easier for Brooklyn riders riding the old BMT and IRT lines.
4. Maybe, just maybe, thanks to this the M can become a popular line in Manhattan, in part because it parallels the 4 and 5 in lower Manhattan and to a lesser extent the 1 and 2. You can't get IRT trains with this transfer, but you could get a cheap BMT imitation.
Well then, there is a way to do it. If worse came to worse we could each ride our favorite train a different day, but Coney Island is a must, and you and Steve can watch me ride the Cyclone since he doesn't like riding it either. That is weird. None of my friends, and I mean none of them, like to ride coasters. Only I seem to like them among my friends, but the ferris wheel bugs me and I will not ride them under any circumstances.
Thisa time you have to ride the back car like the lady said
I don't mind Ferris wheels, but I've noticed as I get older that I get jittery on them whereas I didn't as a kid. I'm not afraid of heights, either. Go figure.
As most regular Subtalkers know, I take an annual trip to the city in October to coincide with my college Homecoming. Next year's football schedule shows a home date on October 19, an away game on the 26th, and a possible home date on November 2. I usually find out for sure by February or March and start planning then.
If course, if you two were to join us, my ribs would he hurting from nonstop laughing.... It would better than some of those Bob Hope-Bing Crosby movies.
Maybe we can oblige. I tried to call Bob this morning but his phone is on the fritz. We will touch base soon.
I was on the computer Will call Tuesday evening 10 my time 7 yours
Sounds good time to me, it is only a 5 hour drive from where I live
Sounds good time to me, it is only a 5 hour drive from where I live Fred s problem is that he is a school teacher and only gets school vacations, unless he decides to retire
Hey, the more, the merrier. Imagine a whole carload of transit buffs yelling, "Hi!!" and waving to a local while blowing past on a diamond Q.:-)
That was a privately printed T-Shirt. The TM never had one like that.
I know that the Transit Museum gift shop sells New York City Subway T-shirts for various lines and stations.
Does anyone know whether a T-shirt exists for the PATH system?
If so, where can I get it?
Thanks,
Danny the bus addict
I know they do, but I was curious if that R-68 t-shirt was sold in the past and now somewhere.
To subway grrl,
Is it possible that you are or will be making or have made subway car T-shirts like the R-68 one that I saw at MN's Open House?
Please note, I just purchase more of your subway line T-shirts (1 W and 1 D, both in Navy). I will purchase the Q's when you come out with them.
Thanks,
Neil Feldman
NNEILEF@AOL.COM
Hi Neil,
I would love to get to lots of the imagery that is out there. I hope
to do this for many,many years. I shipped my first product in 1996,
and as a tiny business, have to be careful not to move to quickly.
The mistakes are always expensive! Stick with me and I promise to
create lots of things you'll all like. (I hope!)
I think your shirts rock... too bad they dont fit on my super-fat body yet but i look at them everyday and it makes me want to workout more..
so like jarod at subway, i am allen at subwaygrrl! :)
we could do a commercial once i lose the weight (ha ha)
So sorry about the sizes. I'm not a big enough company to stock the
XXXL's etc yet. They are really expensive!
its ok by not making them it gives me more reason to workout
i want to walk around atlanta with the shirts on! show my nyc pride here in braves land...
Wow, sounds like you have a successful company. Where'd you come up with the idea for this? (Good thing you did! :-D)
I am a voice-over actor, and schelp to all of my auditions and work
on the subways. (Used to work alot) I saw the Grand Central Gift
shop for the Transit Museum, and found their products very attractive,
but felt they hadn't really done enough. I approached them, and
ultimately got a license from the MTA to do the tees. Since then,
other products too.
Typical start-up, after 5 years, I can finally see the light at the
end of the...you know!
If you decide to make the R-68 shirt, or the Q (Manhattan to Coney Island, Please email me or let me know? Thanks.
Just keep checking my site. The Q may be next year.
nycsubwayline.com
Diamond and circle, right?
Question......any flushing line #7 shirts for sale ?? 2x or 3x large please !!! .......lol !!!
Hi! Yes, check out my site at
nycsubwayline.com
I have two different #7 shirts available in XXL, no XXXL yet.
thanks !
This morning about 6:40 as I was heading to work, I saw what seemed like a normal yard move out of 240Street Yard. It was a consist of blue stripped Livonia cars with the #1 sign in the front. Yet ALL the side signs had a green 5. BUT the destination signs were for 242 and New Lots. I think the lead car was 1921.
Why was it (sorta) signed up as a 5. I believe one train of R-62a's from the 6 is borrowed by the 5 at night for the shuttle service. But this couldn't have been that train as it was car's from Livonia.
Any ideas?????
There are two #1 trains in the AM that are singed up as the 5. It runs from 242 to Flatbush. Then from Flatbush, one train goes to E.180St and one train goes to Dyre.
there have beem alot of r62a on the white plains rd line.lately.also every mouring about 7:14 a three train starts at 238st
Ok this is the deal with the R62A's on the No.2+5 Lines.
No.5 Line gets 2 R62A's form the No.1 Line like SubBus said. Also you have the 2 R62A sets for OPTO which means you have 4 R62A sets for the AM Rush Hour. The2 Sets from the No.1 Line do during the day traval Light to back to 240th Yard.
No.2 Line get 2 to 4 Sets of R62A's from the No.3 Line. I'm not sure about the AM's but PM's have them going from 14 Street to E 241 Street signed up as a No.2 train.
whats the sense
Here's the real deal: R142s are not meeting up to expectations...they are being pulled out of service faster than replacements can arrive. Don't blame TA...it's stupid politics. So, TA is trying to muster up anything with running wheels and the logistics of it all boils down to what maintainance facilities have what parts to service what contract cars. I learned on R68s but spill my blood now on Redbirds and sweat out the R142s...i would like to see something else but in two short months, now know the systems fairly well and what the public needs is what they ride. 239th is home for #2 and we do #5 also...don't dwell on musical chairs. Peter
alright .are the problems the brakes locking up,a/c,doors and so on
Well, the brakes aren't locking up anymore but the doors.....are holding up service. Did undercar service today and changed out eight brake shoes on one car...one was down to the metal...but there was no concern about a 'dynamic braking problem.' What has been happening is that the car doors have not been reliably closing. In other words, the system attempts to close the doors and does but a door (or more) may not be properly secured (we get these problems in maintainance visits without a history) but the trainset runs without incident. A/C units leak, crew door switches are defective (replacements are installed upside down now) and a whole bunch of other crap that make me want to lead an invasion into Canada. Peter
What is the purpose of running these two 5 trains from 242nd St? Are there not enough cars on the 5 without them?
Does THIS humorous article remind any one of some people here?
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh ... looks like Train Dude ain't getting any for a LONG LONG TIME. (grin)
He was the first person that popped into my head.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh ... THAT will teach the wiseacres to come over and wave their thingies in Harry's place while Subtalk was on hiatus ... they came and communed, now we bring the "bustini-bustini" flavor of "Other side of the tracks" back over here as the final "nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah." Heh. But yeah, I actually kinda LIKE Train Dude though there are times when I wish he would punctuate his "satire" with yellow/black striped tape per OSHA regulations. :)
I am a graduate of Trainaholics Anonymous :)
--Mark
Graduate hell... you and I flunked out together!!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I saw how your face lit up at Caboose Hobbies when you found those N scale parts.:-)
I've been known to blow a few bills on American Flyer.
The state Department of Environmental Protection yesterday ordered the MBTA to restore streetcar service through the heart of Jamaica Plain, ending a 16-year battle between neighborhood and environmental activists and the transit agency. This is the "E" line, which has "temporarily" ended at Heath Street for 16 years. Much of the tracks are paved over, and wire gone. But.... here's the
Story from the Boston Globe.
I must say I'm skeptical... I think we'll see the full-length 2nd Avenue Subway open first :-(
[ending a 16-year battle between neighborhood and environmental activists and the transit agency.]
it's not over yet.
Here's the "out":
But DEP officials, in making yesterday's ruling, said the MBTA could only avoid restoring service if it could prove it was ''not feasible'' to do so, which the agency apparently failed to do.
Guess MBTA will have to try harder.
--Mark
And another from the Boston Herald
it this story is right it will take about 4 years
I would love to see service restored in this area. However, since apparently this sectionw as shut down because of frequent derailments (thats one of the reasons), I don't know if I would trust the type 8s on this line, and it will only be a matter of time before the type 7s are gone (10-15 years from now prolly)
The shutdown excuse was the need to rebuild the Arborway Terminal to serve the new Forest Hills Station (which was, in fact, done by 1987, though no trolley wire was ever erected). After that, there began a slow period of infrastructure decomposition, beginning with the scrapping of all PCCs other than the 11 assigned to Mattapan. Next came the removal of the yard behind 500 Arborway, followed by the failure to replace the switches at Heath St., demolition of the Lotus Place Carhouse, and most recently paving over the tracks on South Huntington Av.
This amounts to a steady effort to make restoration infeasible, by slowly gutting the facilities involved in that line's operation.
As far as derailments go, I don't recall any greater propensity for derailments than on any other line. In fact, since the LRVs, which were derailment prone in their early years, seldom ventured south of Heath St., that section was probably less bothered by these annoyances. Amazingly, South St., which did (and still does) exhibit a number of square joints (rails which do not meet on tangent), is virtually free of the potholes which plagued South Huntington Av. and became the excuse for the paving over the tracks.
The biggest problem in restoring service is complying with ADA. This is a problem from Brigham Circle outbound, with the exception of Heath St. Loop, since a platform capable of serving the Type 8s would impede traffic flow. My proposal would be to either refit the LRVs (which like the PCC cars are now the "Proven Technology") with wheelchair lifts similar to those used in vans, taking one door on each side out of service for walkers, or to buy 50 more Type 7s, again with one door equipped with lifts, which would stow like those on the RTS buses. These would enable the cars to load anywhere, without major street obstructions.
The bottom line is that the best way to kill a good thing is to make it look like a bad thing, which the MBTA has put a lot of effort into!
Gerry
If this "street running" service is restored, it might set a precedent for other such service to be restored/added.
But this begs the question: is street running LRV service a good thing on narrow streets with no private ROW for the trolleys ?
Mr t__:^)
YES Trolleys (or LRVs) are just fine if 1. traffic is not allowed to block the tracks. 2. they get 'preempts' to override the traffic signals. Its not perfect but trolleys are UNIVERSALY better than buses to this railfan. AND in general get higher ridership than buses in similar service patterns.
Yes - and the high ridership on the 39 bus is mostly inherited from the streetcar line which was always heavily ridden. The elinination of the 39 bus would allow corresponding improvements to bus service elsewhere!
I think this is far from a done deal. The MBTA settled litigation five years ago by agreeing to restore Arborway service, yet until recently was still proposing non-rail solutions. Why should this DEP order change anything?
I think money will become a huge obstacle. According to the Boston Globe, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is now running a $1.4 billion deficit, and the Globe article from Nov. 8th notes that it will cost $85 million to bring light rail back to Arborway (this being Massachusetts, you can be sure the final cost will be significantly higher). Since MBTA management has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into restoring the Arborway line, you can expect them to produce a gold-plated solution as the only feasible way of operating this service.
Also, none of the news articles mention anything about the equipment that will be necessary to operate the service. If the Type 8 debacle continues, will the MBTA be able or willing to keep the Boeing LRV's running another 4 or 5 years until the 'Type 9's' (or whatever) arrive? Will the MBTA be allowed to operate non-ADA-compliant cars like the LRV's or Type 7's?
Jim D.
Is it possible that they can extend the Dyre Avenue #5 Line to South Ferry and then have the White Plains #5 line to Flatbush Avenue during the rush hours? When the #5 line does not run to South Ferry, the #6 will run to South Ferry.
There is insufficient track capacity between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green to support three services. There is also a question of demand for South Ferry service.
The 2 track section over the Manny B before the flip supported three services (DQB) and that two track stretch was a lot longer than the line from Bowling Green to (1) South Ferry (9).
But I believe the 4 has more than 10 tph, as well as the 5, and if track capacity is 30tph, fitting in another line is tough maybe impossible.
Would non-rush with 3 services be any worse than rush with 2 ?
Why don't you suggest that to 5 Brooklyn riders, who will have to cram onto doubly crowded cars to save ferry riders a short walk.
The station could be opened off-peak (5) and even nights (6), but that would result in confusion.
I was once wanting the 4/5 line to extend to South Ferry. Since Whitehall Street has opened again, I don't see a need for it really. If anyone wants to catch a ride to anywhere on the Lex Line, they can transfer at Union Square. It's a decent alternative for now. I'd do it if I had to.
From a railfan's or commuter's perspective, what are your favorite Mass Transit Systems (i.e. Boston's MBTA, New York's MTA-Metro-North Railroad, LIRR, NYC Transit, NJ Transit, etc.) based on the following criteria:
1. Number of routes.
2. Physical condition of locomotives, rolling stock, subway cars, LRV's, buses (transit and suburban).
3. Physical condition of terminals, stations, track, signals.
4. Frequency of service.
5. Accuracy and reliability of service advisory announcements.
6. Aesthetics.
This is just an informal survey and is not intended to criticize any transit agency in particular.
My favorite is Toronto's TTC. There's a lot of variety: a beautiful subway in great condition, streetcars (regular and articulated), the mini-elevated of Scarborough Rapid Transit, and they have some old GM fishbowl buses still running. It has it's flaws I'm told, and I don't know how it works for everyday commuting, but as a tourist and a railfan I had a great time using it.
Mark
The number of fishbowls seems to have stabilised for the next few years at just over 300.
-Robert King
If I had to choose, it'll be a tie:
Washington DC's Metro: Fast, clean... an ideal transit system.
NY's Long Island Railroad: Though this system has it's up and downs, there is no better commuter rail system in the world.
Hong Kong for its varied system. The Double Decker 70 year old trams, Double Decker Bus System. The MTR that wisks people from Downtown to the Airpot 25 miles in 30 minutes via Local, or 90 second headways during rush hours. KCR Railway like Metro North, which also has 6-8 Mainland China Trains a day with various equipment, and the Star Ferry across the Harbour for less then a dime. My favorite internationalk system. Also I forgot the Light Rail in New Territories. Can t wait to go back
From the Boston Globe
Senseless as usual. You would think at times like these and what our nation is going through, that for once people would use there brains. I guess some of us in this world have not fully felt or really care what 9/11's message really is.
For me, I think it was God's wake up call..............
Regards,
Trevor Logan
I think so too. Its in the bible. somewhere in revelation. It said babylon fell in a hour. Some say we are not evil because we did nothing, but God sent judgement. After all i think This nation has forsaken him and he is getting our attention. he sure got mine!!!! My brother takes the E to canal everyday when 911 happened and my mom takes the 4 5 to wall so u can imagine what they saw...... my bro was late to work and he is glad he was! i was flippin burgers in Queens and i could see the WTC on fire from Cambria heights!! all i saw was a gray cloud moving way too fast to be a cloud so.....
The Ashmont line needs to be cleaned up. Granted, one of the reasons the Braintree line is so nice is because its newer, which is one reson why station renovations should occur in the ashmont area. -Nick
All 4 stations on the Ashmont branch are scheduled for renovation. Funding is in place, designs are in progress.
Does anyone know if they plan on preserving the character of field corner? Although run down the design is good and one of the last of its type left.
Sounds good! Especially at Ashmont...all the paint is peeling off. I wonder if they will just repain the current "roofs", or replace the whole thing with a cement roof/structure like on the Braintree line. -Nick
Is the peeling paint lead paint? I was wondering about that when I was at the Boston Common station last month (I forget its real name -- is it Park St.?) and noticed lots of old-looking paint flaking off the ceiling, particularly over the entrance stairs. Wonder how much of a health concern that is.
C
Park Street is one of the stations on the common, but it was all redone in 1993. The Station you are probably thinking of is Boylston, which is also on the common, but closer to the theater district. -Nick
What has station renovation got to do with an argument on a train that started downtown and happened to come to its climax at Fields Corner. The only reason that the event happened where it did was that that location provided the easiest getaway for the perp. The safety or condition of the station had little impact here. If the event occurred in the crossunder, or what's left of the Charles Street Exit, then the lighting and security of the station might be in question. Elsewhere Fields Corner Station is quite safe, with good visibility and lighting.
Gerry,
My apologies for the misunderstanding. I guess this scenario did not have anything to do with the Ashmont line itself, I was making more of a general statement that renovations should be done since most of the stations are run down, so I am glad that this will occur. -Nick
From what I heard at an early public meeting, the plans for Fields Corner will eliminate the cross platform transfer from Bus to Rapid, putting the busway at street level. The earliest plan called for an island platform, but that was scuttled in order to keep the line running through construction. I hope the public forces a more passenger friendly design.
I've noticed (for a while now) that under the car # on the sides of a R62(A) train there is a strip of a certain color.
I've seen red and yellow, and I don't remember it clearly, but I think the others were blue, green, and black. (I haven't ridden a subway for 5 weeks now)
Sometimes, there would be a certain color diamond in the middle of it, such as with a purple color.
I distinctly remember that the yellow stripped trains run on the #4 - Lex. Av. line.
Can anyone tell me what these colors stand for?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Okay...all I can say (correct me, someone, if I am wrong) is this:
1) The colors are supposed to be, or were at a time, yard stickers that distinguished one yard's revenue fleet from another. I dunno what the diamonds and circles in the markers are, but I can also say this...
2) Here were the colors, post-9/11/01...
a)(1)/(9)--red
b)(2)--black
c)(3)--blue
d)(4)--orange
e)(5)--green
f)(6)--yellow
g)(7)--black/yellow (that always got me stumped...)
Correct me if I am wrong...
Carlton
Someone else asked this and I answered. A response to my answer is titled "Thanks!"
"I haven't ridden a subway for 5 weeks now)"
Pete, have you been having problems riding trains in the post 9/11 era? If so, thats a normal feeling...but I hope you'll find a way to continue railfanning. -Nick
No. I have no problem or worries about riding trains or the SUBWAY. But I haven't been visiting NYC in a while now. (NOTE: It's NOT of the terrorist attacks or anything of that matter.)
In fact, the next time I'll most likely be riding trains is tomorrow. I'm going with my mom to church.
Railfan Pete.
Ok, good to hear, Pete...happy railfanning!! :-) -Nick
Thank you both for your answers. But I still want to know what the diamonds in the middle of the colored stripes stand for.
The diamonds also are in different colors.
Railfan Pete.
The diamonds, circles, square, etc are symbolic of modifications made to the car. Once the mod is made to all cars of the class, the shape is removed, to be used for another one when needed. And before you ask, no, I don't know what mods are represented by what shapes.
I have a couple of questions about the Bergen Tunnels.
1) I am aware that the Bergen Tunnels Rehabilitation Project has been going on for several months. I know that it has started on June 24, 2001, and it is a 14-month project. I have witnessed the removal of the tracks on the outbound side.
What is located on top of the tunnels? (I know that along the route, there are two very short openings.)
Any word on WHY they are rehabilitating?
How old are the tunnels?
2) I've noticed that just outside the tunnels on both ends, each track has a metal dotted sign strung up between the catenary wires that states: AC MOTOR STOP
Can anyone tell me what this stands for?
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
AC motor stop indicated to the engineer operating a AC locomotive to stop at the sign because the overhead wire will soon terminate. This is the case with Amtrak in Sunnyside yard in NYC where catanery ends and third rail begins.
AC motor stop indicated to the engineer operating a AC locomotive to stop at the sign because the overhead wire will soon terminate.
If this is the case, how many tracks in the Bergen Tunnels are electrified? I know Gladstone Branch trains run through here (all trains going to/from Hoboken must go under this tunnel) and they are 100% electrified and use Arrow III EMU's.
What would happen if a train had to stop at this sign?
Normally all 4 Bergen Tunnel tracks are electrified, but in the construction period they probably removed the wires from two and errected the signs as a warning. If you go past the sign the wire goes up up and away and your train coasts to a stop. Worst case, the pan hits an insulator.
but in the construction period they probably removed the wires from two and errected the signs as a warning.
These signs were up BEFORE the construction began. These metal signs were untouched. They were already there probably from the start.
Worst case, the pan hits an insulator.
Could you explain this further please?
Railfan Pete.
I do not know why they would have AC Motor Stop signs before any of the tunnels. Maybe they were for the Erie division trains that diverge at that junction on the western side of the tunnels.
Think of this. Catenary wire, AC Motor Stop sign, more wire, JAGGED INSULATOR. The insulator might snap your pan off or tangle in it and tare the wire down.
They keep making it harder to dig up, but I found some information on the project at the NJ Transit website:
Press Release - 5/10/01
Press Release - 8/10/01
Wow. Thanks for those links.
It really helped me a lot. I appreciate it!
: )
Railfan Pete.
One tunnel is like 1889 or thereabouts. The other tunnel is 1904 or thereabouts. There are dates on the portals. I'd need to dig up my pics.
The North Tube opened in 1877 and has been serving passengers on trains for 124 years.
The South Tube opened in 1908 and NJ TRANSIT plans to rehabilitate it at a later date.
(I read the two press releases earlier in this thread.)
Railfan Pete.
Are you referring to the Bergen Tunnels in New Jersey or the ones in Brooklyn?
- Lyle Goldman
What ones in Booklyn?
The tunnels under Bergen Street on the F line.
- Lyle Goldman
Oh, not those. My question was already answered for the ones in NJ.
Thanks anyway for your consideration.
: )
Railfan Pete.
There are no tunnels under Bergen Street in Brooklyn, except for sewage, water, electrical, gas and telephone lines. The F, M-N-R-W, Q and 1-2-4-5 lines all cross beneath intersections with Bergen Street. The Franklin Avenue Shuttle crosses it using an overpass.
The Bergen Tunnels which connect all Hoboken Divison rail lines including the Waterfront Connection train just outside of Hoboken Terminal.
By the way, are there Bergen Tunnels in Brooklyn? If so, where and what is it used for?
Railfan Pete.
I thought you might have been referring to the tunnels under Bergen Street Station on the F line. The lower level has been pretty much out of commission since a fire destoyed the switch.
- Lyle Goldman
On top of the tunnels: some streets, some houses, some other buildings, and two reservoirs.
Who knows why they were rehabilitating? The official propaganda was that the tunnel ceiling was deteriorating and pieces of the tunnel were falling on trains and on the overhead wires, and that water was leaking into the tunnel. They also wanted to increase the headroom so that bilevel cars could fit through the tunnel.
How old? TheNorth tube is about 120 years old, one of two Erie Lackawanna tunnels dynamite blasted (the other near Otisville on the Port Jevis Line.
How old? The North tube is about 120 years old, one of two Erie Lackawanna tunnels dynamite blasted (the other near Otisville on the Port Jevis Line.)
They are rehabilitating because of water damage in the tunnels, there is no concrete, no waterproofing either. Plus vibrations from MU and Diesel trains alike have rattled the tunnels for years. the tube under renovation now is the older, it needs work first.
The openings? Shaft openings made permanent after construction is my guess, but it aids in air circulation for the diesel locomotives.
OK, Thanks.
1) I got off the njtransit.com website and saw under the "TRAVEL ADVISORIES" button, this text:
"Attention Bus #120 and #134 Passengers: Due to congestion from earlier auto accidents on both sides of the Holland Tunnel, you may anticipate 20 minute delays."
Is this just a coincidence?
How long has the Holland Tunnel been safe without accidents in the Tunnel?
2) Rail cancellations. Four of them this evening. Due to police investigation in the Emerson and Hillsdale area. (Those were the points the trains were cancelled.)
Visit the Travel Advisory site for details: NJ TRANSIT's Advisory Notices
If a train is cancelled in the middle of the route, such as these, where do the crew and engineer relocate?
Does anybody know what kind of police investigation is taking place?
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The Holland Tunnel accidents, according to news reports I heard earlier, weren't actually in the tunnels themselves but immediately beyond the exits. The Jersey-bound backup was listed at over one hour at 1715 (5:15 PM for you time-impaired folks) by WCBS radio; I didn't hear about the eastbound backup until later so I assume that accident had not yet occurred at 1715, or else it was cleared and no longer a significant problem by that time.
Accidents in the tubes, while they do occur, aren't all that common because the factors which contribute most to accidents are mitigated by others due to the nature of the tubes - there is no lane changing permitted, it's too congested most of the time to try anyway (all of the jockeying for position occurs before entering the tunnel or after exiting, where there's more room on the road), and the slow speed of traffic through the tunnel tends to minimize the frequency and severity of what accidents do occur. Bump fenders, keep moving until you're out of the tube and then pull over.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've been noticing periodically on the Flushing line "double rollsigns".
They are at the bottom of the set of 3 signs, and have a white background.
The first half has a #6 (with the green circle but a little smaller than the size on the rollsign) with a short segment of black lettered text (I don't remember what it said).
Then in the middle is a thick black line separating the #6 from the #7 (with the purple circle), then a short black lettered text there.
I saw it upside down on the front interior of the train Manhattan bound at 40 St. many months ago.
Can anyone tell me when these "double rollsigns" would be used?
I dont know about the 7, but they were used on the 2/5 during the Lenox reconstruct project. Those signs said 2 Bronx 5 Manhattan and 2 Brooklyn 5 Bronx.
PBD and/or PBD Jr- maybe you can get a shot of these signs for the site. Many redbirds still have these white background signs.
Is it still OK if the white #6 and #7 sign is upside down on the inside? I'm sure it's okay. It's on the interior.
I still want to know if anyone knows about the #6 and #7 one, not the #2 and #5.
Thanks for your response!
Railfan Pete.
Has anyone ever seen this book for sale, or possibly have an idea what a fair price for it might be?
Joseph Cunnngham & Leonard Dehart
"A History of the New York City Subway System. Part 3, The Independent System and City Ownership"
From what I have learned, it is a paper bound book (perfect binding), published in the mid 1970's, and is less than 100 pages.
Karl, I have, but I don't remember what the price was. That's one I don't have in my own collection either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I saw a rather beaten up copy at the Gaithersburg Railroadiana Show. The seller wanted $50.00 for it, and wouldn't budge on price. I passed it up because of its poor condition (although the binding was still holding together, and those perfect bindings are normally the first thing to go).
I have been wondering ever since if I made a mistake. I guess that I am hoping that someone here will say...
"That price was way too high, they should sell for $10.00 or $20.00!
All three parts are essential for anyone interested in a 'beyond the basics' history of the NYC Subway. Lots of facts. There was a reprint that combined all 3 books into one, but the photo reproductions weren't as clear as the originals.
As to what a fair price would be I don't know. I do know that these come up for sale very rarely. I believe that had very low print runs (the reprint 550). If I didn't already have the combined reprint and Volume 2 I'd pay $25 for each volume (or maybe more if an eBay bidding war convinced me that these were more rare than I thought).
The Brooklyn Historical Society Library has these. When will that library be reopening? You might also find them at the New York Public Library.
Maybe an eBay search of "completed items" will turn up what these have sold for. Or check net book searches to see what they are going for (if any are around)
I checked my various net sources before posting my reply to Karl... none out there at the moment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Alan, Thanks for the info, but I'm in Penna, 250 miles from the city. I do have Vol 2 as loose pages, thanks to Larry Redbird R33. I have read it several times and thought that it was good, although I did see one misstatement of facts.
Chris, I have been watching eBay for several years for items like this, and have never seen these books. Of course I might have missed them.
Based on Alan's post I'll just go on thinking that the price I saw was too high. and not worry about refusing to pay the $50.00.
Thank you both for your help!
"Based on Alan's post I'll just go on thinking that the price I saw was too high. and not worry about refusing to pay the $50.00."
My remark shouldn't be taken as definitive. Since you already have Vol 2 you are in a better position to ask what these volumes are worth to you. If you didn't have your Volume 2, and being familiar with the book, would you pay $50 for it or for any other volume in the series?
Vol 2 is the BMT which was my favorite division. I had the volume several years and forget what I paid for it, but it was certainly no where near $50.00. Being retired now forces me to look real hard at any price before buying.
I have this book, it's the only one of the 3 volumes that I do have. I picked it up brand new at the Transit Museum back in 1977 for, IIRC, about 10 bucks. It was a lot to shell out at the time (I was 16 and working part time at the McDonalds under the Ditmars station in Astoria), but I found the book to be very interesting and decided to spring for it. Now the fun part: I was offered $100 for it about 10 years ago. I don't know if I would pay $50 for a beat up copy, I would hold out for a better one. You never know, you may get lucky and catch a good copy cheap. Good luck.
Yeah, I've seenit. I actually own a copy.
The original price, from what I remember, was almost $20.00 -- and was a wealth of information. I forget where I even bought the book, but it was after I moved out to the west coast in 1982. Supposedly, there were a total of three volumes -- I also have the IRT volume as well. (The third, I assume was BMT??)
There was supposedly a reprint of all three volumes into one publication in the 1980's, but I have never found a copy of it anywhere.
I just want to know something, that I have not got a clear answer on. The TA has built A test track from the just slightly south of the North Channel Swing Bridge (does not open any more) to Broad Channel. Of course now this makes 3 tracks all the way to Broad Channel. No im not talking about the layup track just north of Broad Channel, which by the way makes four tracks in the area. Anyway after the TA stops testing these new trains, which I have only seen on occasion, what will become of this new test track? Anyone out there know? Also what is the purpose of the four tracks from the North Channel to way past Howard Beach to the ramp at Ozone Park. I feel if the tracks are not going to be used get rid of them instead of maintaining them, wasting money! Besides these tracks had there days when they were part of the LIRR. Any thoughts out there?
Future tests. I think the track can wait around until the next new cars come.
They belong to Pitkin Yard, there are too many gaps in Pitkin yard proper to support a good test track.
The 4 tracks from 165 Ave to just before Liberty Jct used to belong to the LIRR when they owned the ROW. The LIRR had 4 tracks continue all the way up to before Allantic. After having a transfer at Ozone Park, 2 tracks used to go down a ramp to go westbound on the LIRR Atlantic Branch. Thru where the school bus yard is now. The other 2 tracks went all the way up to Whitepot Jct near 63 Drive.
All of the extra tracks (Liberty to 165 Ave and North Channel to Broad Channel) are used from time to time to store worktrains. Between rebuilding the South Channel Bridge, The connection to/from the Airtrain at Howard Beach and the constant fixing up of the flats, I think they'll be working there for a while.
As for the 4 tracks before Liberty Jct. the nouth bound middle was taking out of service for good passed JFK. The TA removed the switch into it too make from 2 track. 2 track is now a strate track onto the Jcts. If anyone has been the in the last few weeks you would see this.
Robert
The test track will still see frequent service as every car in the system needs to be track tested now and then (I heard someone say once a month, it could be true but it seems a little too frequent).
As far as the 4 tracks past the North Channel Bridge, the middle two tracks are primarily used for relays when the relay track at Broad Channel is unavailable. Past Howard Beach, the middle two tracks are permanently out of service up until south of the Rockaway Blvd overpass. And don't worry, they haven't been maintaining them wasting money.
Every car is required to be track tested once per year.
The F uses the center track to test trains out of CI Shops. There are signs near Kings Hwy noting that the test area starts/stops.
The IRT system also has a test track at the end of the Dyre Ave line.
Mr t__:^)
These questions are based on rumors I heard and Some observations.
1.True or false:Riging a 5 train during rush hour round trip is like riding a Q train Round trip.
2.Which of these are incorrect:A-The 7 is the only train to not "mingle" with other lines.
B-The 5 is the only IRT line with an open cut yard.
C-The R62 and R68 is due for an over haul.
3.Math question:If it's 90 degrees outside the whats the temperature in Union square compared to Roosevelt Island?
4.Which is the current fastest fleet of trains?
a-R62
b-R46
c-R68
d-R110B
e-R142/R142A
5.Which station is closest to New Jersy?(The answer will suprise you)
a-GWB(A)
b-14 street(A,C,E,L)
1.True or false:Riging a 5 train during rush hour round trip is like riding a Q train Round trip.
FALSE
2.Which of these are incorrect:
A-The 7 is the only train to not "mingle" with other lines.
3.Math question:If it's 90 degrees outside the whats the temperature in Union square compared to Roosevelt Island?
90
4.Which is the current fastest fleet of trains?
e-R142/R142A
5.Which station is closest to New Jersy?(The answer will suprise you)
b-14 street(A,C,E,L)
1] false
2] false
3]i dont know
4]R46
5]14 street
Today I took the LIRR to St.James. It's been at least 6 months since my last trip out to Suffolk. Got up bright and early, and was going to catch the 8:35am through train to Pt.Jefferson. I got there around 8am, the Hicksville station was crowded. Well for those who were taking the westbound train from Bethpage there was an "equipment problem" and the train was cancelled. The W/B platforms were packed, and then it was announced the next NYC bound train would arrive on track 3, the E/B track. There was a mad dash to the platform I was waiting on. It was sure weird to see a train coming in from the WRONG direction. The MU was also short, so there were some people who didn't make it, or saw the packed cars and decided to wait for the next one. At 8:30 it was announced my train, the E/B Port Jefferson train was operating 18 minutes late. So there was alot of waiting. It finally came at 8:50am. Man what a slow ride it was. Either the bi-level set had a dead engine or the engineer was a real slowpoke. We crept practically those whole way to St.James, probably no more than 30 or 35mph the whole way. Didn't get to St.James until 9:50am, almost 30 minutes late. From there I took a walk down through the scenic area to Smith Haven Mall. Going back the train came 10 minutes late. Plus there was A/C on in the train, so it was cooold. This time though the ride was very fast, and we made it to Huntington on-time. I was going to Hicksville so I had to get off, because the next stop was Jamaica. At Huntington the local MU was right behind the bi-level train I had gotten off. It was really close, less than a train car length! I sure wish the NYC subways would squeeze more trains in like that. The MU ride to Hicksville was very fast, everything was on time.
Several questions and comments though. Just east of the Cold Spring Harbor station there appears to be remnants of a platform near the bottom of the hill. Was that the original Cold Spring Harbor station? Also noticed some bugs on the Bi-levels. No automated announcements working, the train going back said LI City (I though only peak direction only trains served LIC). Also there was a disabled door in one of the cars. Too bad they have all these problems because they do give a pretty smooth ride.
They still have those problems with those bi-level cars. I think CSH station was at one time at a different location than it is now, so there is a possibility that it may have been at the location as you mentioned. A lot of the conductors don't even bother to turn on the announcements, so it is not rare not to hear the announcements working. The other thing is they do have consistant door problems with those cars, which was a major problem with the prototype bi-levels that were dualed with the FL9AC's then. I love the a/c's which operate much better than the older fleet of cars that the LIRR has. Next time you decide to take the LIRR, ride from Penn Station to Port Jefferson on either train 658 (4:19pm) or train 660 (4:49pm) which takes about an hour and 45 minutes for each train. There is no way of telling that you are on a dual-mode train because the lights never turn off through each 3rd rail gap, only the fans. And usually they flip over from electric to diesel when the trains are at full speed. On train 658, the train that I take back to Port Jefferson from Penn Station, the conductor never turns on the announcements, or if he does, it is only brief because he hates hearing the announcements. They are sort of a nusance in a way.
I have heard that the R-143 will make another attempt to test in pasenger service on Monday on the L line. I hope there will be no errors with it again. Also the R-110b's will resuming service but the thing is we do not know on which line the train will be runnung.
Please respond if you have any details on the R-143/R-110B's or if there is any changes.
Has the R143 started testing???
Please tell me where you are getting this information from?
The 143 was track testing on Thursday on the Rockaway flats. If it goes into service, I certainly hope that they run it through the car wash first.
By the way, they're some ugly trains on the outside. The 21st Century version of the R40 slant.
Wayne won't like to hear a Slant be called ugly =).
I know they have the R-142's on the 5 line , but I do not know what times does it run. Who ever have times or have seen it run please let me know. That will be cool.
There are no R142's on the 5 yet. They will get their share starting with 6800. However there have been several simulated runs on the 5 in the past.
The 5's R142's are starting with 6801? Does the 2 really need 500 subway cars (6301-6800)?
6801? The 5 will not have alot of cars then since the primary order ends at 6980.
Simulated my behind. On about 5 occassions to date, I've spotted R-142s in passenger service on the (5) in the evening rush. I don't know if it's because of a redbird shortage or what. But the simulation days are over!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
simulation days are over? then howcome it is still going on with the fixed cars that are coming in?
well ive seen it about three times simlating stops for rush hour service @ 238st with the signs on.one occasion 6326-6330 5 car set.2 6681-6685/6686-6690 simlating for the <5>
R142s in service aren't meeting TAs expectations and are being pulled out of service faster than replacements for 'DedBoids' can arrive. The #2s and #5s were sked on the list for first replacements...Kaws are now just arriving at 180th St. yard...push Bloomberg for updates. Peter
i wish i could work at the ta.i just go to school
"i wish i could work at the ta.i just go to school"
Be patient, the years will fly by and before you know it it's time to take a Civil Service exam. Funny, some TA employees working for X amount of years wish the years would fly by so they could retire !!
Bill "Newkirk"
wrong.the 2 doesnt require 500 train cars.the 2 should end at 6721.
r142man
But that is what is getting. Sorry to disappoint you. The 5 will have to keep running those fas redbirds
right now there are no R-142's on the 5 line. the 5 will get the 6800 stock. right not the cars are up at plattsburgh being reworked because of a vendors faulty product put on the cars. they should be ready and be shipped for five service by late december to mid january. until then, we just have to relax are nerves and spray Raid in our pants to kill the ants.
We've been busy excavating the first city block of roadway for the new Red Hook trolley. Track will be installed shortly. Then we move on to the next block.
We also received a much needed payment from the City today.
Its my understanding that the pier will be repaired in the near future.
Did we must for a better Brooklyn.
Bob D.
Bob, what happened with that problem from the Comptrollers office about the permits? Is that solved?
Best of luck, cannot wait to ride a Brooklyn Trolley!
Yes, as it turned out, the Notice To Proceed contained language whereby it embodied all required permits within itself.
It would have been alot simpler if folks would have simply read it.
I should point out though, that some folks at the Comptroller's office were instrumental in getting our much needed payment out today.
Like any city agency, we don't pay a single BILL!!, we authorize payment and notify the Comptroller to release the funds. The Comptroller will pay it when ever he (now she) dam well please.
It is very hard to get contracts done. Vendors want 30day payment and we can only state we will authorize payment in 30 days, it is up to the Comptroller's Office to cut the check.
All I know, is despite all the stories we all hear about "un-responsive city government"-- we received the check in only 2 weeks, once the process was started!!
The thing I'm really surprised about, is that now I see there are people in government who want to see trolleys return to Brooklyn.
They will not be disappointed.
"All I know, is despite all the stories we all hear about "un-responsive city government"-- we received the check in only 2 weeks, once the process was started!!"
Perhaps the influence of a long departed Brooklyn trolley motorman looking down from the heavens helped you out !
"The thing I'm really surprised about, is that now I see there are people in government who want to see trolleys return to Brooklyn."
That's very incouraging to hear. You need all the support you can get, including people in government.
Bill "Newkirk"
That is wonderful! There are always a few good eggs in the rotten basket. I am very glad that the project is back on track (pun intended).
Usually, you get more with a sweet tooth than a sour one, as was likely the case here. Best of luck in your future expansions!
We had the maps out at tonight's Exec Committee meeting.
Cool! Glad to hear it!
Congrats Bob!
I will have to come down and see it when i come east for Thanksgiving week.
Jeremy
Good for you! Keep us posted on the progress, by all means.
Now, does any one know how these trolleys are going to look?
Are they going to be similar to the LRT in Jersey City and Bayonne?
They're going to use vintage stuff, it'll be a combo museum / new transportation system. At least that's the goal.
A few old girls from Buffalo I believe will be part of the Brooklyn trolley (!) fleet. Bob and his dedicated friends lovingly restore each girl to her pristine state.
Yes, were working on the # 70 (ex-Shaker Heights). Last week, we finished off the repairs on the structural iron work. The last "big" item left is the repair of the roof "skin", which is all steel.
"Yes, were working on the # 70 (ex-Shaker Heights)."
And when work is finished and it's time for a repaint, do I foresee the B of T green and silver for #70 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Weve got plenty of paint.
Its going to be almost all PCC's, maybe some other types of older equipment (in addition to # 3, built in 1897), if we can get it.
Our "design paradigm" can best be described as San Francisco's "F" line, combined with what would have existed locally, had the Brooklyn system not been destroyed in 1956.
I must have missed something between working alot of overtime and SubTalk being down a couple of weeks but the last I read on this forum the whole thing was completely dead as a result of the boat/pier accident. I'm really glad to see the project is back and rolling. But what happened? Was the damage not as bad as originally thought?? Please fill us in.
This was a real "rollercoaster". The damage to the pier was really bad, in fact chunks still fall into the water regularly.
After some quick emergency iron work using arc welding (backhoe used as crane), we stabilzed and supported the trolley poles in the affected area with some big steel beams and C-Channel- makes an interesting sight. Our tracks are still there, the damage goes adjacent and around them.
The bulk of the line was not affected.
The true "heroes" in this story are certain folks from the City DOT and other places. They would not let go of this project. I always thought they didnt care one way or the other.
They inspired us to start building in the street despite the problems on the pier.
The owner of the pier decided to make the repairs, which I hear will be soon.
The other interesting thing I noted so far, is that its easier to build in the street than it was building along the waterfront. No six foot thick bulkheads in the street.
Back when the pier got hit, it looked as all was lost. I sent Bob a couple of e-mails listing the trials and tribulations of the Baltimore streetcar collection, in the theme of "Never Give Up". We never did, and look where we are today.
The common theme in the story was that every time it looked the blackest, something good happened at exactly the right time.
I'm glad the Brooklyn Trolley is "on track" again.
With forecasters prognosticating a $4 bilion deficit in a couple of years, will subway maintenance suffer the way it did during the last fiscal crisis in the 1970s?
--Graffitists held full sway with most cars covered in tags.
--Safety became a problem as track fires became more frequent.
--No new equipment as far as I know was purchased between at least '72 and '82.
--Car maintenance was deferred. Doors would fly open while trains were moving.
Many more problems than I can think of here.
Would the public allow subway maintenance to slip back to what it was? Would a fare increase to $2 a ride be accepted to insure that it doesn't?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Let's hope not, Kevin. Personally, I'd like to think that the MTA has learned from their past mistakes; additionally, I doubt Giuliani and successor Bloomberg are going to let the city's much-ballyhooed '90s renaissance and attendant influx of tourism dollars go to pot so quickly.
Let us also hope that this recession, should it prove to actually be the real deal and not just a flash-in-the-pan panic response to the recent terror attacks, is brief. (I'm loath to join the chorus proclaiming the present slump a full-fledged recession just yet. Before September 11, most economists were predicting a brief downturn followed by market recoveries in the second quarter of next year, so the long-term prognosis seems to hinge on how much consumer confidence has been impacted.)
Love your site, BTW.
Chris
I expect that Mike Bloomberg (who actually is a democrat - Judy Hope didn't like him since he's not a communist so he had to run as a republican) isn't going to be at all like Mark Green (who IS a communist) and try to keep the fare down if there's pressing financials. If Bloomberg is allowed to raise the fare if necessary, then the frills will be gone for a while but the MEAT of maintaining the system will be undeterred.
Deferred maintenance was the province of political chickensheets to not be blamed for raising the fare. It went up anyway. I think Bloomberg's a little more with the clue of running a business ('ya gotta SPEND money to MAKE money') ... had Green won though, I'd expect the subway to go straight to Hades within a year.
Either way though, no second avenue subway ...
(Would the public allow subway maintenance to slip back to what it was?)
Yes, out of ignorance. Remember, if you cut back on maintenance, you won't see the result for years. If you raise the fare, you'll take the hit immediately. So the public will not approve of deferred maintenance, they'll suddenly find out that it had been happening for four or five years.
Bloomberg doesn't control the subway, Pataki does. And Pataki's man says no service cuts, no fare increase, no hiring. They'll probably be a retirement incentive. What's left? Accomodate the lower staff with lower maintenance, and cut the purchase of maintenance materials. Pataki just wants to be re-elected in 2002. He hates NYC residents, and if he can pull the wool over our eyes he'll do it.
TA Workers -- I suggest anonymously informing the press of any examples of deferred maintenance over the next 18 months. Don't take the "get our higher wages and pensions and get out of town" attitude that was taken in the early 1960s.
Having worked in politics for a number of years, I have a bit more faith in Bloomberg than many who don't know the game. Politics is nothing more than a POPULARITY contest and that's as DEEP as it gets. Every politician wants to be cuddly and blame someone else for their cluelessness. The one thing I get from Bloomberg is that he really doesn't care so much about this and his own motivations aren't the typical politico. Paturkey being a good example of "business as usual, what does it take to make you LIKE me and vote for me?"
I strongly suspect that Bloomberg's attitude will be "if you want to blame me for a fare hike, I don't care" ... I definitely could be wrong too but I don't get that sense. I guess we'll see. The one thing that really makes all of this different though is that we all KNOW there's going to have to be sacrifices as a result of 9/11 and I would like to think that we're all more prepared to face them than if it hadn't happened.
While I can't see the city and the MTA going out and building new subway lines, I *do* see the possibility of fleet purchase continuing, the Deadboids continuing to go blub-blub-blub and maintenance being continued according to plan. If not though, I agree - rank and file should be screaming bloody murder although ABD's eventually add up too. :)
Expect the 143's used to replace cars in service. It saves the cost of adding service and the cost of major overhauls and the public has shiny cars to look at.
Well, we know the 38's and 40's are toast and the 44's will likely soon be taking out the tunnel ends given their braking problems. So no surprise that the 143's (and possibly an option order) will be car replacements. They don't build them like they used to. Had the prewar cars been treated a bit better, they'd probably still be shaped up for duty even today.
That's another reason why I don't believe that deferred maintenance will fly these days - it was one thing to abuse stuff built like a tank ... stuff built like a Toyota though is likely to be shedding parts on the rails faster than you can say Mazda if not given their propers. :)
It's not just thhat they don't make them like they used to. They don't rebuild them like they used to.
There are one or two posters here who really hate A/B cars and link bars BUT it is hard as hell to bury stuff. You run out of combinations fairly quickly.
I do think you might see another rebuild project coming in the next 2-5 years. A rebuild for regenerative breaking should be good for some extra federal money and while the cars are all opened up they can fix some other problems on cheap and go to 4-5 car sets.
Yep ... bottom line is if deferred maintenance is tried with the equipment in stock these days, the MTA will be in a whole world of hurt pretty quickly. I'd say the car equipment folks can look forward to continued checks. :)
(Yep ... bottom line is if deferred maintenance is tried with the equipment in stock these days, the MTA will be in a whole world of hurt pretty quickly. I'd say the car equipment folks can look
forward to continued checks.)
Perhaps your experience in government was less disillusioning in mind. Yes, today's rolling stock might deteriorate faster without maintenance. But the, back in the 1960s those pushing deferred maintenance had a ten year horizon (until all the "people like us" move out of the city). Now there is a one year horizon (until Patakie gets re-elected).
Heh. Well, as long as the democans have Judy Hopeless (and they will) then Paturkey ain't going to have to work very hard to get re-elected. I can see it now, Green runs for governor since Judy shall remain forever clueless ... and I do NOT want to vote for Paturkey nor re-elect our state legislator or senator because there was no budget this year and now these A**sholes are blaming their failure to pass a budget on April first on September 11th! Givest thou me a break ...
Though the MTA is a state agency, the city is represented on the board effectively and though Bloomberg may not be a subway foamer like us, he also knows that if the subway doesn't run properly, there's going to be more traffic in front of his limosine. :)
I actually believe that Mike WILL keep the trains running and will be a humongous pain in the butt for Paturkey if cuts are put into place. Of course AFTER the erection, all bets are off. I still see the subways though as being a priority on a political basis and when it comes down to it, what keeps politicos happy is what gets done in the end. I don't see deferred maintenance in the TA's future. I *DO* see deferred CONSTRUCTION though other than the rebuild of the 1/9 lines.
Love D'Amato. Mebbe makes good pizza to. Peter
Can someone please explain what exactly makes the R38s and R40s candidates for replacement? Thank you.
It's been discussed here before: While the newer cars in the fleet (and the R-32s) are entirely stainless steel (walls, roofs, and structural framing), most of the earlier stainless steel cars (R-38, R-40, R-42, and, to some extent, R-44) are not. The non-stainless steel parts are rotting.
David
The 38's through 42's (and some 44's) are suffering Redbird disease (core rot) ... the rooflines and outer edges where the stainless sheets on the outside meet should give you an eye full ... it's a matter of time though and time's running out. Unlike the redbirds though, the stainless on the outside doesn't show it so clearly. Open up a panel though and the truth is revealed ...
I just want to thank you as well as David for the information on the R38s-R44s.
Just one more question on the subject. Wouldn't a good paint job remedy the rust problem plagging these cars, as well as the Redbirds?
Unfortunately, it's too late. Part of the problem with any subway car is the louvres and vents for air and the tightness of rubber seals over many years. Water gets into places (and salt air because we have this place called Brooklyn) that aren't easily gotten at without removing the exterior panels (which in turn would weaken the mechanical strength of the car body itself) ...
Now if there were some TRULY creative folks at the MTA and this had been thought of many years ago, perhaps they could have filled up squeeze tubes of BONDO and filled the car bodies with BONDO (tm) until it began oozing out of every hole in the car, completely filling the water exposed metal in the interior. :)
But lacking that, no ... no practical way of doing it. Budd SURPRISED the TA with the R32 design being all stainless - the original contracts for the 32's called for the same old same old LAHT the redbirds were made of and Budd, having won the contract convinced the TA to "try" stainless at no extra charge. The TA acquiesced but already had designed the 38's and 40's going back to traditional steel.
Wasn't until after all this that the benefits of stainless became apparent and the TA changed their specifications to require it in later car construction. Budd provided a free gift ... the 38's and 40's were built unaware of what a gift Budd had provided.
The paint would work, but it doesn't do away with what time has done to the steel. Covering it with paint only slightly delays the inevitable, which is the steel deteriorating and the cars eventually being scrapped. Besides knowing that, the TA would call that a "not-so-cost-effective" idea, due to the inevitable scrapping due to age and steel deterioration, and the cost of paying the employees for the time of doing the paint jobs on all the cars.
Redbirds rust where b0dy panels meet the chassis...there are holes to drain water which have been overlooked in maintainance. Another 'too late' condition. As far as body panel (Bondo) and painting is concerned, I'm all for it cuz the more work...the more valuable we TA schlubs are. Spend, spend, spend, $ 1.50 is a big bargain for a trip. Every customer who rides my subway is a recipeint of taxpayers subsidy: WELFARE. My years of hard work and taxation are finally paying me back. SelkirkTMO: Nuke em all...I ride the trains for FREE. Peter
Yeah, flashing that card at the booth was a fun part of the job. Nowadays though, I understand you have an employee metrocard and actually have to go through the turnstiles instead of opening the gate, waving card and continuing to walk ... ah, those were the days.
Do carbody and you'll get the full message. Pop the seats and you'll really see the full message. I WANNA STAY CLEAN!!!! Peter
Why do you say Green is a Communist. Usually conservatives paint liberals as anti-american communists who are actually trying to bring the government down and raise taxes. The luxury of a ignorant people gives them an oppurtunity.
With forecasters prognosticating a $4 bilion deficit in a couple of years, will subway maintenance suffer the way it did during the last fiscal crisis in the 1970s?
It's important to keep one thing in mind. Forecasts of government deficits or surpluses are highly unreliable. Economics isn't known as the "dismal science" for nothing. In the early 1990's, the federal government was running huge deficits, and not one self-appointed expert saw anything but oceans of red ink ahead. As actually happened, of course, things did a 180 and before long Washington was running huge surpluses. So I'd be very skeptical of this NYC deficit projection and its effects on the subways. No one really knows.
R142A 7531-7540 is doing a simulated run on the 6 as I speak.
Just yesterday I saw 7531-7540 passing through 3rd Ave-149th St. I thought it might be on its way to the 6. I see that I'm right.
I am confirming the testing of these cars, too--saw them yesterday at the Brooklyn Bridge N/B Local track at roughly 15:00 yesterday
Isn't the V train suppose be implemented this month. Also, aren't the R142's transfer announcements supposed to be updated this month?
The V will enter service on December 10th. I hope they update the auto. announcemnts as soon as possible.
I assume the service changes as a whole will take place December 9, as the TA typically makes service changes on Sundays. The V itself won't run, since it's a weekday-only service, but the F will run through 63rd (as it's been doing often this year, but this time it won't be a GO) and the G will be extended to Continental (and possibly Church -- I've heard conflicting stories).
"and the G will be extended to Continental (and possibly Church -- I've heard conflicting stories)."
You mean Continental at night, since it will be suspended to Court Street during the day? This means two things should start on or around the same time: G line will have R68s, and will only have 4-car trains, and the people movers at court street should open too. -Nick
I believe the G will go to Continental all times except when the V is running.
I believe the G will go to Continental all times except when the V is NOT running.
actually your first statement is correct
No, it can't be. They already resolved that the G/R/V can't go to Queens Blvd at the same time, so weekdays it'll be R/V and other times it will be G/R
your first statement said that th g and v would never run together, your second said that the g and v would always run together
": G line will have R68s"
Why R-68s on the (G)? The R-68s like the R-46s are both set up for OPTO in four car sets.
Bill "Newkirk"
Jamaica would need the extra trains for the V. Coney Island has a bit more to 'spare'.
G service:
Runs to Continental Av when the V is not running. When the V is running, the G terminates at Court Sq.
Southbound service terminates at Smith-9 Sts at all times except on Saturdays from 7 am to 8 pm when service is extended to Church Av.
FINALLY that big wonderful flying junction turn around at Church Avenue will be put to use!
Huh? Why just Saturdays to Church?
Only TA suits can answer that. Write a letter to 370 Jay St.
Since the rest of us "go to Church" on Sundays.
I hear the people movers are open already.
They're just moving walkways. I was on them the other day. There is one on either side of the entrance into the Citicorp building. Both move from the G to the E/F areas.
I took a quick look at car assigments. Now hear this: The G will have R46's for now. All yards will have to cut down on the spare factor. If Jamaica needs more cars, they will get some from Pitkin and some from CI. ENY will give some slants to CI if needed. Car availability in the B division will be extremely tight till the R143's are running en masse.
With the G going to Church Ave., will the V or F resume express service via Bergen St. lower level? Those relay tracks at Church Ave. have been dormant an awfully long time. Also does any one know if Bergen St. lower level has been repaired after the fire a few years ago?
The answer to the first question is "no," and a major reason is that the answer to the second question is "no." Bergen Street Interlocking is not at full operation (it can be used as local-only or express-only) and won't be until it's rebuilt (with its tower functions moved to Jay Street Tower, for those who didn't know).
As far as the G going to Church Avenue, we'll see...
David
Thanks for the information. Hopefully with the rebuilding some day this service can be restored to it`s full capacity. The run from Bergen St. to Church Ave. on the F express was enough to excite any true railfan. Thanks again David.
I wonder if the R-142A's will go on another line besides the 6 Train. If they are plase advise.
supposedly some are to come to the 4 line. most likely it will not come to that line.
the 4 .the r142a option order
It was expected that R142s would eventually replace all IRT antiques but life is life..........Peter
its true its true
Made in Japon
I heard from friends that beginning next year that they will be adding new lines, ex. the 11 train. I wonder if they are going to bring back some of the old subway lines back. That will be nice.
The 11 isn't really a new line just a new designation for the
Diamond 7 (flushing Express).
Ripped from Railpace's website, and posed in various other places...
BOMBARDIER FILES SUIT AGAINST AMTRAK: Bombardier Corporation, a subsidiary of Bombardier Inc., filed suit against Amtrak today in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia claiming that Amtrak disrupted its ability to produce and deliver the high-speed trainsets and locomotives for the Northeast Corridor (Acela Express) in a timely and efficient manner. The Corporation seeks to recover at least US$200 million in damages, which include additional and unwarranted costs incurred during the execution of the Acela Express project. These costs have already been accounted for by the Corporation, as part of the total project costs. Bombardier's claim states that Amtrak did not provide track upgrades necessary for high-speed service. As a result, the trains had to undergo more than a year and a half of additional testing. "Track quality and train design go hand in hand," said Peter Stangl, President of Bombardier Corporation. "Had Amtrak delivered the quality of tracks required for high-speed service, we could have avoided costly and time-consuming testing and the trains would now be running at full speed. Trip times would be reduced and passenger comfort would be increased." Bombardier's complaint also states that Amtrak provided inaccurate information about the dimensions of tunnels, electromagnetic interference on the Northeast Corridor and track geometry. It further contends that Amtrak delayed decision-making on major technical issues as well as a series of design details, which in turn halted progress in critical areas and led to production modifications and design revisions. "We ask that Amtrak take responsibility for its shortcomings on the Acela project, so that we can resolve outstanding issues. Bombardier Transportation has delivered all 15 locomotives and 15 of the 20 trainsets called for in the US$710 million contract awarded in 1996, and expanded in 1998, and they are performing well," said Stangl. "We believe the facts of this case will show that Amtrak disrupted our ability to deliver the Acela trainsets and locomotives on time and on budget, and caused major costs overruns." The 46-page complaint comes after repeated attempts by Bombardier to achieve a settlement through negotiations. "While we regret having to resort to legal action in this matter, we have reached an impasse in our discussions with Amtrak and see no other alternative to protect our rights and resolve this dispute," added Stangl. "We are proud to be associated with the development and realization of the first high-speed train project in North America. We are delivering a very high quality product that obviously suits the needs of Amtrak, as indicated by the very positive comments, both public and private, that we have heard from Amtrak and its passengers," concluded Stangl.
Interesting turn of events! I wonder how this will affect any future Amtrak/Bombarder high speed rail projects.
As an aside issue, anyone in the northeast area have an acient, vacuum tube, color TV set that they need gotten rid of? Me and a few others I know are looking for early color sets with round picture tubes of them - and there's a bounty of $50 and up for them. Specifically, we're looking for RCA chassis befoer CTC-16, or any other brand color TV that has a round picture tube. You can I.D. such sets because the sides of the screen are curved, not squared off like a modern set. An example of such a set, and a modern screen set, can be seen at: http://www.rwhirled.com/portacolor/pics/PC-1976-size.jpg
Thank you :)
(And yes, to the ex TV repair guys out there, we know what a mess we're asking for, but the one other guy who wants one of these sets already did one for a local museum (giant Curtis-Manthis 'Nimitz class' console!), and wants one of his own, an I want one too (and he's already said he'll help me get it going right...))
well,thats amtrak for ya. if they had done their homework, then the would not have a problem now. this also the reason why they have many accidents on the routes. they never keep up with their maintenance and structures like they are supposed to until recently. thats why alot of
amtrak's fleet isn't in such good shape.
this will be a real donnybrook. "four inches" anyone? (the excess width which prevents full use of the tilt feature which reduces MAS) And just who made the decision to build them too wide? (or to accept the 'error'?
Can Bombardier suing MTA/NYCT for the R-142 fiasco be far behind ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Now that vice versa because the reason the R-142 project is behind on Bombardier's behalf is because of poor build quality.
The MTA has every right at this point to say, "OK HALT, no more trains until you fix this issue". Such as the A and A+ braking system issue and other things like hairline cracks in the trucks. Bombardier cannot sue the MTA because the MTA wants a quality car. If Kawasaki can have the R-142A order start delievery on time and have next to no real big problems, what is Bombardier's problem.
Granted the Amtrak issue is Amtrak's Fault, but this R-142 issue is Bombardier's fault, and I pray to god that Bombardier does not get any part of the R-160/R-160A order to come.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
"i pray to god that bombardier doesn't get the R-160/R-160A order" you better pray real hard because they are more likely to grab it than Kawasaki is. I may be wrong but my brother in-law told me because kawasaki can't produce large orders in a short time, and their stock takes longer to shipped, bombardier looks more attractive. and because of the terrorism, kawasaki's chances of grabbing the contract seems worse. unless they open up their bigger plant in the middle of butt f--k america before the order is given.
Lets give the 160s to everyones favorite company...Boeing-Vertol
The Lord does truly give Grace to those who Believe and Ask. Remember Grumman Flexible busses...where are the MTA contract busses now?? Yes, Kawasaki AMERIKA has problems meeting numbers but Bombardier has problems meeting operational revenue line cars...'Made in Japan' doesn't mean crap anymore cuz it's made here.......Plattsburgh is full of retards and brain-damaged skiers trying to assemble cars from many vendors. It's time for General Motors, Westinghouse and General Electric to get together and MAKE FOR AMERIKA!!!!! No more foreign junk. Peter
i agree
'Made in Japan' doesn't mean crap anymore cuz it's made here.......
No more foreign junk
Let me see if I understand this correctly: You don't want anymore foreign junk that's built in the United States?
-Robert King
Sorry if misunderstanding....R142 Fabriken im Plattsburghe. Lets get it straight: my parents generation fought against and dealt with the Axis Powers and The Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. There is no pride in workmanship or ethics on the job. Contract workers are not only used to assemble R142s but to to modify them and do warranty repair onsite. When their work is done: KAPUTT. Two workers that left doors unlatched the other day were FIRED.....at 1 PM this afternoon all car inspectors were called up to the shape up room.....to learn how to apply duct tape to access doors already securely locked on R142s. NO MORE FOREIGN JUNK TO BE BUILT IN THE UNITED STATES. Mom says 'Hang the flagpole up.' I say 'Hang up the foreigners.' If we build it and 'F...' it up, it's our problem. SubTalkers aren't bitchin about Saint Louis or Budd cars...especially Redbirds. I wonder why. Fabriken im Amerika FOREVER!!!!!!!!! Peter
The Bombardier T1 cars are excellent and they're made in Canada. The foreign junk built in the USA doesn't seem to do so well. That means there's a problem with the Americans who actually are building the R142s. I don't have enough experience with Kawasaki's equipment, either in the United States or elsewhere to make a comparison.
-Robert King
So.....crappy politics.......why stick me to service Fabriken auf Plattsburghe when I can sing 'Oh Canada'. I read of kudos to Frabriken auf Dusseldorf. I don't blame employees at the Plattsburgh facility....garbagein/garbage out. Bombardier is like Volvo...I withold my comments. I still don't know what a T1 car is. Peter
While I prefer to but domestic products WHEN they are superior, many mamufactured goods simply are not made in the US. Seen a domesic 35mm SLR EVER? (let alone on a par with Nikon, Canon, Leica, etc) The ATK AEM 7's while assembled here are a "foreign" design. Not as pretty as a GG1 but they go like bats out of hell. As to lingering WWII feelings, I harbor no anger at Japanese or German citizens of my generation (I am 57) who were barely born as hostilities were ending.
If you want US owned carbuilders to flourish we will first need to drasticly increase the market by building more transit properties. St Louis gave up when it was down to one grumpy customer. PS much the same(even if the last cars built had been perfect, it was not enough to keep the factory open.) Today, railcar assembly is a temporary business--you low ball bid the work, short term lease a building, hire inexperienced workers and hope you can assemble the kits. Meanwhile the specs keep getting more complex.
A very sharp and perceptive analysis, Dave. I agree.
Maybe one possible solution is for MTA to do its own assembly from standard parts - what I mean is, MTA designs a car from parts and kits already used in other fleets, so the manufacturer has lots of orders already and MTA is just one more customer for those parts (for example, electric DC traction motors). MTA then fills in the gaps for those parts not available elsewhere and assembles the cars.
This may be more expensive than buying ready-built cars from builders like Kawasaki and Bombardier, and I don't know if I am unwittingly introducing complications which would doom my idea, ultimately.
actually there is precedent in mainline RR behavior--a recent B&O Hist Soc mag had a reprint of a company magazine story on assembly of coal hoppers at Du Bois Pa Co shops facility from 'kits' supplied by vendors. Also note that a large (Breda? correct me Oren or Wayne) order for DC Metro was built at Amtrak's Beech Grove Shops in Indianapolis. My understanding is they came rolling out on time and are good cars.
Larry Littlefield pointed out long ago that no vendor can maintain a business on huge orders every decade and a half. For everyone's survival, it should be a regular program of 1-2 hundred cars every year or so--thus the production lines can stay well tuned AND solvent. The other major stupidity is the complete lack of standardization other than motors(AC, DC) and wheels. Of course MTA is the mega purchaser, but between abandoned hopes(R44/6? desidned for the "high speed 2nd Ave line") deliberate incompatibility blunders(75' cars) and long times between orders, a "standard" car doesn't even exist there.
A truly standard car in New York is ruled out or has some severe limitations imposed on it because of the differing design parameters between the A and B divisions; perhaps two standard cars, one for each division?
-Robert King
Fix the platforms, put trips on both sides of the car, uniform the legnth of the trainset....letterworld and numberworld will be equalised. So simple??? Peter
There is a small matter of B division cars reboring some tunnel stretches here and there. And it'd be an amusing sight to see the 68's wedge in the Steinway tunnel. :)
Hear hear ... the contracts the MTA lets out REQUIRE "Made in New York" as a basis of being awarded (I forget how many "points" it's worth, but it does help edge past the competition) ... the PROBLEM is that if we really wanted to have working equipment, we'd allow it to be built where the TALENT is ... we've gone through this little discussion several times before here.
Forcing a manufacturer to build a plant in NY in order to get a contract for a "one-shot" results in poorer quality than if the cars and equipment were built at the company's "real" factory instead. Just to the west of me is Schenectady - former home to GE locomotives and the original plant of the world reknown ALCO ... of course everybody that used to work for those long gone companies in this area are way past retirement age.
The reason I mention Schenectady though is GM built a "Supersteel" facility there and hired up locals to build those wonderful LIRR units that are so troublesome. And they're still there doing the rehabs on the Turbos for Amtrak. Amusing though how the REPAIRS to what they built aren't being done here. Hmm.
I've ridden many Bombardiers on STCUM ... and I've talked to folks that work on them. Aside from cleaning and lubrication, about all the attention they need is the scheduled motor rebuilds and lamp replacements and that's pretty much it. Seems as though the real problem here is the requirement of NY employment of people who do not have extensive experience in building railcars to build railcars to meet a political objective rather than a practical one. THIS is what I see as the real problem with the new subway cars - built by amateurs.
I agree too.
This whole "Buy New York" thing is what I blame the most for why the R142s. I heard this was a requirement that was placed in the contract by the state. It's understandable that the state wanted to create jobs upstate because its economy has been hurting for a long time. But the pols have to understand that the people building the products need to know what they're doing. They need to have experience building railcars. Otherwise give the contract to a company that only has plants in Europe or East Asia. I hope the state will wise up and remember this when the MTA puts out the R160 contract for bidding.
Nope ... the madness is going to continue since our idiot legislature has that requirement in the "procurement system" that favors vendors with physical plants in NY. That's STILL there and is I *think* a 3% leeway ... in other words, if a vendor with a plant in NY comes in with a bid that's 3% higher than a "low bid" from an out of state supplier, the supplier that's 3% over gets the bid as "low bidder" because of that fudge factor. There's other "allowances" as well that can add up to the low bidder being up to 6% higher ... this is why these companies will toss up a temporary "one shot" factory and win the bid. After a year or two when the cars are built poorly, everyone who built them is out on the street once again anyway. They know this and thus since their jobs are temporary, how much do they really care about what they build?
As much as it sounds good (and there's your depth of political thought) it's a bad idea - we pay more and get shoddy crap. Effort should go into getting people REAL jobs, not gimmicks like this that serve to cook the books for just one election period. Whoops. Did I say that? :)
FRA shoved this contract down TAs throat cuz system cars didn't ge 30 day trial. I am a new TA employee and now I know how to do the 'TA shuffle.' It isn't in my morals or work ethics...just do your job and fill out your worksheets...and pass the problems back to your supervisor. Boms. contract workers are disposable. When I found a problem on R142, my partner said, "Fowget abot dis, you no worry. Dis new train, is OK, you no worry." I'm responsible for the safety of the public on a million buck + subway car and 'me no worry?' Sorry, too many hands (vendors) into the pie. Hey, be a good American and buy shoddy goods assembled in Taiwan or Indonesia. As for me, I'll keep my ethics and do my work properly. I'm always in the hole and on the juice, Peter.
The FRA has no say as to who NYCT deals with on subway car contracts or anything else. FRA has no jurisdiction over NYC Transit.
David
You're right, and unless the manufacturers do something to improve quality control we're only going to see more unreliable subway cars in the system. It's a shame that the state insists on this, really. But as far as I know, the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers is a permanent plant because this same plant made PATH's PA4 and the cars and the R68As in the 80s and also built double decker-cars for MBTA, MARC and VRE throughout the 90s. So I would think that Kawasaki's workers are more permanent and they care more about the products they're building. Maybe that's why we're not hearing about the R142As having so many problems, like we are with the R142s. But I'm not giving up on the R142s. I still think in time they'll be great subway cars. Don't forget, the R46s, R62As and R68s had a lot of trouble during their early years in service. But they are not having those problems now. Neither will the R142s after several years in service.
No ONE is permanent. Yah know what i learned the other day??? Don't personalize your tools cuz if you forget one and it blows up a train, TA will be looking to be cookin your ass. No one cares....new fix for R142 loose panel doors is duct tape. NOTHING lasts. Peter
I think if a train blows up in the carhouse, a LOT of people's asses will be cooked!
Ah, but the lost wrench will have no mark of ownership and tools are lost all the time. ETHICS 103!! (after first two lessons.) Peter
True, but my bet is that Kawasaki's "quality" is more likely the result of most of the work being done overseas and final asembly being done here - I doubt KHI is actually doing the machining work here. If I've got it right, the shells and subsystems are done over in Japan at their "real" factory and it's largely wrench and screwdriver patrols on this end. And sadly, Bombardier DOES do good work at their own factories. Ever been to Plattsburg? Not exactly an oasis of culture there - former Air Force base and that's about all it ever was. Glad to see folks have jobs and all but not exactly a Detroit of skills.
I'd love to see just one set of 142's that were built in Thunder Bay and see how they compare to the ones built in Plattsburg. And I don't say this in hopes that Plattsburg shuts down - those folks up there are desperate for an income. But subway cars doesn't seem to be their forte ...
I agree. Bombardier does do good work. The push-pull cars on MNRR, NJT and SEPTA seem to be doing fine. I think Montreal's EMUs on its Deux Montagnes commuter line are doing well. And then you've got overseas products like the Talent DMUs. Very nice-looking trains that are running successfully in Germany as well as in Ottawa, Canada. I believe they also build cars used in the high-speed ICE trains.
I didn't know there were some R142s built in Thunder Bay. I thought all of them were being done in Plattsburgh. Maybe if Bombardier did most of the work in Thunder Bay and only the final assembly in Plattsburgh on all the cars, the R142s might have fewer problems. Who knows?
And who makes propulsion for TGV???? It's in the R142....so whats wrong with the rest of the train??? Final product is how you apply the contents....never put peanuts on your Sundae where only waLNUTS WILL DO. Peter
Not a one of them comes out of Thunder Bay ... that's why I'd be curious to see what happened if one trainset were to be built up there just to see how they came out. Might prove the point if the MTA's getting antsy about what they bought and where the problems might be.
But I've been on enough Bombs over the years to see that they're generally VERY well built and work. But like any company, I'm sure after the "Are you really sure you want it this way?" they went and built to order. I'm very surprised to hear that they're troublesome.
Agreed. Whenever the customer meddles in a design without coordination with the vendor, you've got trouble.
It might be worth MTA's time to send a senior design engineer to Bombardier to actually participate in the initial design phase - like United Airlines did with Boeing on the 777 airliner project. Maybe they already do that - does anyone know?
\
Nuttin not good survives NYC
Sad...
Foreign junk? I would prefer to think that American businesses consumers alike are very sophisticated when it comes to making purchasing decisions! Isn't it a bit patronising and even insulting to suggest otherwise? Perhaps there's a real reason why Honda's and Toyota's grace so many driveways across America. The MTA will continue to make perfectly rational choices when buying subway cars and that includes considering all key issues; price, delivery and quality. Do i detect some inward-looking isolationist views on this issue post 9.11.01? I hope not.
Boeing left the railcar business. i say, if the MTA is tired of Bombardier with their so called problems, and Kawasaki's lack of mass production, then the only company we can rely on is GM's locomotives division. its the last hope, but they never have built electric subway cars before. i would say Siemens but they aren't so good from what i have heard about them across the atlantic. If bombardier is still taken up, because their proven ability even though unreliable is attractive, then this company better start making their own stuff and stop using other vendors that is causing problems for them.
And to think ... if NYC hadn't screwed with both Budd and Pullman, we wouldn't be having this debate. :)
Gimme Fabriken Auf Dusseldorf.
Gimme Fabriken Auf Dusseldorf.
Ist nichten Siemens ... vas ist das?
true,but i also think we shouldn't have this conversation at all. the R-142 and R-142A give problems left and right it will take them a year or two to work out the problems. sometimes the cars never get better but in NYCT they always break-in their reliability. lets just say this, new rail cars are always problematic at the beginning. its a fact that everybody has to accept instead of beating up on a company or two and not take into consideration that these aren't your everyday automobile.
When the R40's came on board, they were very problematic. They eventually settled down to be pretty reliable until they began rotting out many years later. Then there's the R44's. :)
What problems are the Kawasaki R142As giving? Sure their brakes squeal loudly when they stop, but are they having major mechanical problems that are forcing them out of service?
yes they do give problems. sticking doors, failing breaks on some, computer glitches, i experienced a traction motor go bad on one model for the first time(7255), loose parts on some (remember the the par that fell from the truck? it still happens). even though you see alot of R-142A's out there, there are alot that are not running that have minor problems. they are just not mentioned. i think that everybody is just wrapped around bombardiers problems and not looking at kawasaki also. i look at both equally. even though kawasaki has less problems, it still does cause them.
I did see a stuck door on an R142A a couple of times. I remember the canned voices having problems when I rode the first set during the 30-day trial period back in the summer of 2000. I do remember hearing about an R142A whose brakes failed and it knocked out the whole Lexington Avenue line some time back. I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky. Every time I ride one of the new trains, they don't break down. But I'll take your word for it. These are new cars with new technology and new technology always has glitches that need to be worked out.
Where do you guys get this stuff from??? Brakes are ancillary...braking is dynamic and all shoes will make noise. The computer glitches and comm failures will cost Bom. like cracked chassis cost Grumman Flexible. Biggest R142 problem: failure of doors to lock and indicate (Canucks don't use WD-40.) It's there, we paid for it, we're stuck with it and TAs my new home. We didn't make it, stuff came from axis ally France and Americans will have to re engineer it to work. Write your Congressman. Car Inspector Peter.
where i get this from? i get stuck on them thats where i get them from. when it comes to break problems, i don't mean SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKK!!!!! i mean they fail. on several sets of R-142A's, the breaks and other parts failed. or i should say prematurely wore out.
You're right about the brakes. We changed out one whole set on one car last week with a shoe almost down to the metal. Problem is that there are no adjustments WE can do for dynamic braking but passengers are safe and the train does stop. Brake shoes are checked for proper clearance after installation and TA will soon get after Bom. for 'improved' software. If you are writing about Kaws. thats another trainset that I haven't experienced yet. Peter
Just so long as things don't get so bad the MTA has to send a salvage ship with a big grappling hook off the coast of Deleware :-)
Everbody blows things far out of proportion like the 'Anthrax thing.' TA is working hard to make up for deficits in rolling stock that gives me the dirty/greasy work. Guys talk about possible exposure hazards. Hey, get the grappling hook n bring em home. Seawater cleans. Peter
yes i was talking about kaw. plus i am hearing rumors that the 7200 stock numbers of kawasaki is out to be reworked. the bombs i know their story already. they are in and out in and out, but it doesn't bother me because they are still good quality machines besidess the failure here and there. question for you: sometimes their hvacs run a little loud and vibrates on the bombardier. why is that?
Why the loudness sometimes and sometimes not......
The system kicks up when it is adjusting the comfort temperature level on the inside of the cars. As for the vibration, it comes with the sound!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
oh, because the last time 6307 in late summer was running lout and vibrating loud. i thought it probably had a loose part or belt or something. thanks for the response.
re. Boeing - Vertol it looks as though I've really gone and opened up the proverbial can of worms here. And to think onw week ago I'd never even heard of Boeing - Vertol!!!
.......Nice to see some things never change.
I for one, am glad that Bombardier is suing Amtrak over the Acela trains. This is Amtrak's fault. They shouldn't have went for a custom-designed product. They also should not have insisted that the trains be built in America. They should have went for an off-the-shelf tilting train. ABB (later Adtranz and now Bombardier) had the X2000 train, there was the Talgo, (both tested by Amtrak) and Fiat (now Alstom) had the Pendolino. Amtrak could have tested a Pendolino in the Northeast or at least considered doing so, but they didn't.
As for the R142's, I blame the state for much of the trouble. Yes, Bombardier should have been tougher on quality control at the Plattsburgh plant. They should have built more of the components in-house instead of outsourcing them. But it was the state that insisted that the trains be built in New York State by people not experienced in building subway cars. It was not a practical decision, it was a political one. Just like Amtrak's (or Congress's) decision that insisted the Acela trains be built in America. I'm not saying that American products are crap. I believe the opposite is true. Budd made excellent railcars, for example. Rail cars need to be to be built by people who know how to build them or by people who have been properly taught how to build them. If those people happen to live overseas, well, that's the fault of Congress and state governments. They got all swept up in highway and airport fever from the 1930s to the 1960s and let trains go to hell. Maybe if they paid more attention to trains, streetcars and interurbans during that time and dumped that 1890s Populist attitude that the railroads were still greedy monopolists, maybe we'd have more people here in America who know how to build high-quality rail cars.
of course, but many in here can't see that.
"They should have went for an off-the-shelf tilting train. ABB (later Adtranz and now Bombardier) had the X2000 train, there was the Talgo, (both tested by Amtrak) and Fiat (now Alstom) had the Pendolino. Amtrak could have tested a Pendolino in the Northeast or at least considered doing so, but they didn't."
Which of these, if any, would have passed the FRA's strict crashworthiness requirements?
If the Talgo Pendular train can be modified to meet FRA crashworthiness requirements, which they had to have been in order to be running in the Northwest, then so could an X2000 or Pendolino. If you read the TGVweb section of the European Railway Server website (mercurio.iet.unipi.it/tgv/tgvindex.html), it says that Amtrak went with Bombardier because of their financial package, not the technical merits of the American Flyer/Acela train, of which there weren't any, because in 1996 the train only existed on the drawing board and in computer animations. The TGV doesn't count as a prototype because Amtrak's Acela shares very little technology with the TGV.
Bombardier financed $611 million for the 20 train sets and the 15 HHLs that are replacing the E60s. They also agreed to pay stiff penalties for late deliveries on top of the $611 million. Trains magazine in 1996 said that unless Bombardier produced "an unusually superior product" (which I thought they might), they would lose money on the deal, which I'm sure they did. Bombardier's experience in the North American railcar market was also a factor, but they had no previous successful experience in making high-speed trains. Their last venture into high-speed rail, the Canadian LRC train was a big failure. Amtrak also changed a lot of the specs of the Acela constantly. Amtrak hoped to get the best train for the least amount of money, but it looks like that strategy blew up in their faces.
Whoa! What problems are the R142's having that may prompt the TA to sue the manufacturer? I am getting dejavu all over again from the Rockwell and Pullman issues of the early 1980s a la R46.
That's les Francaises for you. They can't build trains for s**t, and then now they're looking for someone else to blame. Why those people at Amtrak chose Bombardier over ASEA's X2000 I have no idea. But beyond that it's a matter of time before cock-ups like this occur.
The report in the Boston Globe read totally differently. Apparently, and in line with my own understanding of the issues, Acela had problems with wheel wear, software, and mechanical failures -- none of which are really within Amtrak's control. I don't really know enough about the electrical details but as I understand, the ability to run on the NEC under PRR wires was part of the design-and-build contract... If they are claiming that Amtrak gave them duff information, then they should have sent out field engineers to measure the system before they built it, n'est pas? FYI, when Siemens was designing EMU for the British Rail system (more of a bitch than PRR system with all their conventional, interference-prone signalling equipment), that was precisely what they did -- sent out people from Germany over to see the electrical systems for themselves. The Heathrow Express "HX" EMU's (class 332) was certified for Railtrack operation on its first attempt.
Lexcie
Bombardier is a Canadian firm. As to technical competence, production quality, on time etc. remember the following.
good old EMD long term dominant US diesel producer has had 'lemon' production runs (part of why GE has overtaken them for the last two decades), CAF has been having trouble doing the new Metro cars for DC, BREDA v. MBTA and even hallowed BUDD whose carbodies, up to the M-1's were IMHO the best, had severe problems building the original Metroliners. And the French TGV's are just rolling up the miles.
Is this Peter Stangl, the former MTA executive?
Yes, quite a bastard now. They also tried putting the Talgos and Amtrak's Seattle locals out of business a year or so ago when their Acela contract when getting shakey.
well,thats amtrak for ya. if they had done their homework, then the would not have a problem now. this also the reason why they have many accidents on the routes. they never keep up with their maintenance and structures like they are supposed to until recently. thats why alot of
amtrak's fleet isn't in such good shape.
this will be a real donnybrook. "four inches" anyone? (the excess width which prevents full use of the tilt feature which reduces MAS) And just who made the decision to build them too wide? (or to accept the 'error'?
Can Bombardier suing MTA/NYCT for the R-142 fiasco be far behind ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Now that vice versa because the reason the R-142 project is behind on Bombardier's behalf is because of poor build quality.
The MTA has every right at this point to say, "OK HALT, no more trains until you fix this issue". Such as the A and A+ braking system issue and other things like hairline cracks in the trucks. Bombardier cannot sue the MTA because the MTA wants a quality car. If Kawasaki can have the R-142A order start delievery on time and have next to no real big problems, what is Bombardier's problem.
Granted the Amtrak issue is Amtrak's Fault, but this R-142 issue is Bombardier's fault, and I pray to god that Bombardier does not get any part of the R-160/R-160A order to come.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
"i pray to god that bombardier doesn't get the R-160/R-160A order" you better pray real hard because they are more likely to grab it than Kawasaki is. I may be wrong but my brother in-law told me because kawasaki can't produce large orders in a short time, and their stock takes longer to shipped, bombardier looks more attractive. and because of the terrorism, kawasaki's chances of grabbing the contract seems worse. unless they open up their bigger plant in the middle of butt f--k america before the order is given.
Lets give the 160s to everyones favorite company...Boeing-Vertol
The Lord does truly give Grace to those who Believe and Ask. Remember Grumman Flexible busses...where are the MTA contract busses now?? Yes, Kawasaki AMERIKA has problems meeting numbers but Bombardier has problems meeting operational revenue line cars...'Made in Japan' doesn't mean crap anymore cuz it's made here.......Plattsburgh is full of retards and brain-damaged skiers trying to assemble cars from many vendors. It's time for General Motors, Westinghouse and General Electric to get together and MAKE FOR AMERIKA!!!!! No more foreign junk. Peter
i agree
'Made in Japan' doesn't mean crap anymore cuz it's made here.......
No more foreign junk
Let me see if I understand this correctly: You don't want anymore foreign junk that's built in the United States?
-Robert King
Sorry if misunderstanding....R142 Fabriken im Plattsburghe. Lets get it straight: my parents generation fought against and dealt with the Axis Powers and The Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. There is no pride in workmanship or ethics on the job. Contract workers are not only used to assemble R142s but to to modify them and do warranty repair onsite. When their work is done: KAPUTT. Two workers that left doors unlatched the other day were FIRED.....at 1 PM this afternoon all car inspectors were called up to the shape up room.....to learn how to apply duct tape to access doors already securely locked on R142s. NO MORE FOREIGN JUNK TO BE BUILT IN THE UNITED STATES. Mom says 'Hang the flagpole up.' I say 'Hang up the foreigners.' If we build it and 'F...' it up, it's our problem. SubTalkers aren't bitchin about Saint Louis or Budd cars...especially Redbirds. I wonder why. Fabriken im Amerika FOREVER!!!!!!!!! Peter
The Bombardier T1 cars are excellent and they're made in Canada. The foreign junk built in the USA doesn't seem to do so well. That means there's a problem with the Americans who actually are building the R142s. I don't have enough experience with Kawasaki's equipment, either in the United States or elsewhere to make a comparison.
-Robert King
So.....crappy politics.......why stick me to service Fabriken auf Plattsburghe when I can sing 'Oh Canada'. I read of kudos to Frabriken auf Dusseldorf. I don't blame employees at the Plattsburgh facility....garbagein/garbage out. Bombardier is like Volvo...I withold my comments. I still don't know what a T1 car is. Peter
While I prefer to but domestic products WHEN they are superior, many mamufactured goods simply are not made in the US. Seen a domesic 35mm SLR EVER? (let alone on a par with Nikon, Canon, Leica, etc) The ATK AEM 7's while assembled here are a "foreign" design. Not as pretty as a GG1 but they go like bats out of hell. As to lingering WWII feelings, I harbor no anger at Japanese or German citizens of my generation (I am 57) who were barely born as hostilities were ending.
If you want US owned carbuilders to flourish we will first need to drasticly increase the market by building more transit properties. St Louis gave up when it was down to one grumpy customer. PS much the same(even if the last cars built had been perfect, it was not enough to keep the factory open.) Today, railcar assembly is a temporary business--you low ball bid the work, short term lease a building, hire inexperienced workers and hope you can assemble the kits. Meanwhile the specs keep getting more complex.
A very sharp and perceptive analysis, Dave. I agree.
Maybe one possible solution is for MTA to do its own assembly from standard parts - what I mean is, MTA designs a car from parts and kits already used in other fleets, so the manufacturer has lots of orders already and MTA is just one more customer for those parts (for example, electric DC traction motors). MTA then fills in the gaps for those parts not available elsewhere and assembles the cars.
This may be more expensive than buying ready-built cars from builders like Kawasaki and Bombardier, and I don't know if I am unwittingly introducing complications which would doom my idea, ultimately.
actually there is precedent in mainline RR behavior--a recent B&O Hist Soc mag had a reprint of a company magazine story on assembly of coal hoppers at Du Bois Pa Co shops facility from 'kits' supplied by vendors. Also note that a large (Breda? correct me Oren or Wayne) order for DC Metro was built at Amtrak's Beech Grove Shops in Indianapolis. My understanding is they came rolling out on time and are good cars.
Larry Littlefield pointed out long ago that no vendor can maintain a business on huge orders every decade and a half. For everyone's survival, it should be a regular program of 1-2 hundred cars every year or so--thus the production lines can stay well tuned AND solvent. The other major stupidity is the complete lack of standardization other than motors(AC, DC) and wheels. Of course MTA is the mega purchaser, but between abandoned hopes(R44/6? desidned for the "high speed 2nd Ave line") deliberate incompatibility blunders(75' cars) and long times between orders, a "standard" car doesn't even exist there.
A truly standard car in New York is ruled out or has some severe limitations imposed on it because of the differing design parameters between the A and B divisions; perhaps two standard cars, one for each division?
-Robert King
Fix the platforms, put trips on both sides of the car, uniform the legnth of the trainset....letterworld and numberworld will be equalised. So simple??? Peter
There is a small matter of B division cars reboring some tunnel stretches here and there. And it'd be an amusing sight to see the 68's wedge in the Steinway tunnel. :)
Hear hear ... the contracts the MTA lets out REQUIRE "Made in New York" as a basis of being awarded (I forget how many "points" it's worth, but it does help edge past the competition) ... the PROBLEM is that if we really wanted to have working equipment, we'd allow it to be built where the TALENT is ... we've gone through this little discussion several times before here.
Forcing a manufacturer to build a plant in NY in order to get a contract for a "one-shot" results in poorer quality than if the cars and equipment were built at the company's "real" factory instead. Just to the west of me is Schenectady - former home to GE locomotives and the original plant of the world reknown ALCO ... of course everybody that used to work for those long gone companies in this area are way past retirement age.
The reason I mention Schenectady though is GM built a "Supersteel" facility there and hired up locals to build those wonderful LIRR units that are so troublesome. And they're still there doing the rehabs on the Turbos for Amtrak. Amusing though how the REPAIRS to what they built aren't being done here. Hmm.
I've ridden many Bombardiers on STCUM ... and I've talked to folks that work on them. Aside from cleaning and lubrication, about all the attention they need is the scheduled motor rebuilds and lamp replacements and that's pretty much it. Seems as though the real problem here is the requirement of NY employment of people who do not have extensive experience in building railcars to build railcars to meet a political objective rather than a practical one. THIS is what I see as the real problem with the new subway cars - built by amateurs.
I agree too.
This whole "Buy New York" thing is what I blame the most for why the R142s. I heard this was a requirement that was placed in the contract by the state. It's understandable that the state wanted to create jobs upstate because its economy has been hurting for a long time. But the pols have to understand that the people building the products need to know what they're doing. They need to have experience building railcars. Otherwise give the contract to a company that only has plants in Europe or East Asia. I hope the state will wise up and remember this when the MTA puts out the R160 contract for bidding.
Nope ... the madness is going to continue since our idiot legislature has that requirement in the "procurement system" that favors vendors with physical plants in NY. That's STILL there and is I *think* a 3% leeway ... in other words, if a vendor with a plant in NY comes in with a bid that's 3% higher than a "low bid" from an out of state supplier, the supplier that's 3% over gets the bid as "low bidder" because of that fudge factor. There's other "allowances" as well that can add up to the low bidder being up to 6% higher ... this is why these companies will toss up a temporary "one shot" factory and win the bid. After a year or two when the cars are built poorly, everyone who built them is out on the street once again anyway. They know this and thus since their jobs are temporary, how much do they really care about what they build?
As much as it sounds good (and there's your depth of political thought) it's a bad idea - we pay more and get shoddy crap. Effort should go into getting people REAL jobs, not gimmicks like this that serve to cook the books for just one election period. Whoops. Did I say that? :)
FRA shoved this contract down TAs throat cuz system cars didn't ge 30 day trial. I am a new TA employee and now I know how to do the 'TA shuffle.' It isn't in my morals or work ethics...just do your job and fill out your worksheets...and pass the problems back to your supervisor. Boms. contract workers are disposable. When I found a problem on R142, my partner said, "Fowget abot dis, you no worry. Dis new train, is OK, you no worry." I'm responsible for the safety of the public on a million buck + subway car and 'me no worry?' Sorry, too many hands (vendors) into the pie. Hey, be a good American and buy shoddy goods assembled in Taiwan or Indonesia. As for me, I'll keep my ethics and do my work properly. I'm always in the hole and on the juice, Peter.
The FRA has no say as to who NYCT deals with on subway car contracts or anything else. FRA has no jurisdiction over NYC Transit.
David
You're right, and unless the manufacturers do something to improve quality control we're only going to see more unreliable subway cars in the system. It's a shame that the state insists on this, really. But as far as I know, the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers is a permanent plant because this same plant made PATH's PA4 and the cars and the R68As in the 80s and also built double decker-cars for MBTA, MARC and VRE throughout the 90s. So I would think that Kawasaki's workers are more permanent and they care more about the products they're building. Maybe that's why we're not hearing about the R142As having so many problems, like we are with the R142s. But I'm not giving up on the R142s. I still think in time they'll be great subway cars. Don't forget, the R46s, R62As and R68s had a lot of trouble during their early years in service. But they are not having those problems now. Neither will the R142s after several years in service.
No ONE is permanent. Yah know what i learned the other day??? Don't personalize your tools cuz if you forget one and it blows up a train, TA will be looking to be cookin your ass. No one cares....new fix for R142 loose panel doors is duct tape. NOTHING lasts. Peter
I think if a train blows up in the carhouse, a LOT of people's asses will be cooked!
Ah, but the lost wrench will have no mark of ownership and tools are lost all the time. ETHICS 103!! (after first two lessons.) Peter
True, but my bet is that Kawasaki's "quality" is more likely the result of most of the work being done overseas and final asembly being done here - I doubt KHI is actually doing the machining work here. If I've got it right, the shells and subsystems are done over in Japan at their "real" factory and it's largely wrench and screwdriver patrols on this end. And sadly, Bombardier DOES do good work at their own factories. Ever been to Plattsburg? Not exactly an oasis of culture there - former Air Force base and that's about all it ever was. Glad to see folks have jobs and all but not exactly a Detroit of skills.
I'd love to see just one set of 142's that were built in Thunder Bay and see how they compare to the ones built in Plattsburg. And I don't say this in hopes that Plattsburg shuts down - those folks up there are desperate for an income. But subway cars doesn't seem to be their forte ...
I agree. Bombardier does do good work. The push-pull cars on MNRR, NJT and SEPTA seem to be doing fine. I think Montreal's EMUs on its Deux Montagnes commuter line are doing well. And then you've got overseas products like the Talent DMUs. Very nice-looking trains that are running successfully in Germany as well as in Ottawa, Canada. I believe they also build cars used in the high-speed ICE trains.
I didn't know there were some R142s built in Thunder Bay. I thought all of them were being done in Plattsburgh. Maybe if Bombardier did most of the work in Thunder Bay and only the final assembly in Plattsburgh on all the cars, the R142s might have fewer problems. Who knows?
And who makes propulsion for TGV???? It's in the R142....so whats wrong with the rest of the train??? Final product is how you apply the contents....never put peanuts on your Sundae where only waLNUTS WILL DO. Peter
Not a one of them comes out of Thunder Bay ... that's why I'd be curious to see what happened if one trainset were to be built up there just to see how they came out. Might prove the point if the MTA's getting antsy about what they bought and where the problems might be.
But I've been on enough Bombs over the years to see that they're generally VERY well built and work. But like any company, I'm sure after the "Are you really sure you want it this way?" they went and built to order. I'm very surprised to hear that they're troublesome.
Agreed. Whenever the customer meddles in a design without coordination with the vendor, you've got trouble.
It might be worth MTA's time to send a senior design engineer to Bombardier to actually participate in the initial design phase - like United Airlines did with Boeing on the 777 airliner project. Maybe they already do that - does anyone know?
\
Nuttin not good survives NYC
Sad...
Foreign junk? I would prefer to think that American businesses consumers alike are very sophisticated when it comes to making purchasing decisions! Isn't it a bit patronising and even insulting to suggest otherwise? Perhaps there's a real reason why Honda's and Toyota's grace so many driveways across America. The MTA will continue to make perfectly rational choices when buying subway cars and that includes considering all key issues; price, delivery and quality. Do i detect some inward-looking isolationist views on this issue post 9.11.01? I hope not.
Boeing left the railcar business. i say, if the MTA is tired of Bombardier with their so called problems, and Kawasaki's lack of mass production, then the only company we can rely on is GM's locomotives division. its the last hope, but they never have built electric subway cars before. i would say Siemens but they aren't so good from what i have heard about them across the atlantic. If bombardier is still taken up, because their proven ability even though unreliable is attractive, then this company better start making their own stuff and stop using other vendors that is causing problems for them.
And to think ... if NYC hadn't screwed with both Budd and Pullman, we wouldn't be having this debate. :)
Gimme Fabriken Auf Dusseldorf.
Gimme Fabriken Auf Dusseldorf.
Ist nichten Siemens ... vas ist das?
true,but i also think we shouldn't have this conversation at all. the R-142 and R-142A give problems left and right it will take them a year or two to work out the problems. sometimes the cars never get better but in NYCT they always break-in their reliability. lets just say this, new rail cars are always problematic at the beginning. its a fact that everybody has to accept instead of beating up on a company or two and not take into consideration that these aren't your everyday automobile.
When the R40's came on board, they were very problematic. They eventually settled down to be pretty reliable until they began rotting out many years later. Then there's the R44's. :)
What problems are the Kawasaki R142As giving? Sure their brakes squeal loudly when they stop, but are they having major mechanical problems that are forcing them out of service?
yes they do give problems. sticking doors, failing breaks on some, computer glitches, i experienced a traction motor go bad on one model for the first time(7255), loose parts on some (remember the the par that fell from the truck? it still happens). even though you see alot of R-142A's out there, there are alot that are not running that have minor problems. they are just not mentioned. i think that everybody is just wrapped around bombardiers problems and not looking at kawasaki also. i look at both equally. even though kawasaki has less problems, it still does cause them.
I did see a stuck door on an R142A a couple of times. I remember the canned voices having problems when I rode the first set during the 30-day trial period back in the summer of 2000. I do remember hearing about an R142A whose brakes failed and it knocked out the whole Lexington Avenue line some time back. I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky. Every time I ride one of the new trains, they don't break down. But I'll take your word for it. These are new cars with new technology and new technology always has glitches that need to be worked out.
Where do you guys get this stuff from??? Brakes are ancillary...braking is dynamic and all shoes will make noise. The computer glitches and comm failures will cost Bom. like cracked chassis cost Grumman Flexible. Biggest R142 problem: failure of doors to lock and indicate (Canucks don't use WD-40.) It's there, we paid for it, we're stuck with it and TAs my new home. We didn't make it, stuff came from axis ally France and Americans will have to re engineer it to work. Write your Congressman. Car Inspector Peter.
where i get this from? i get stuck on them thats where i get them from. when it comes to break problems, i don't mean SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKK!!!!! i mean they fail. on several sets of R-142A's, the breaks and other parts failed. or i should say prematurely wore out.
You're right about the brakes. We changed out one whole set on one car last week with a shoe almost down to the metal. Problem is that there are no adjustments WE can do for dynamic braking but passengers are safe and the train does stop. Brake shoes are checked for proper clearance after installation and TA will soon get after Bom. for 'improved' software. If you are writing about Kaws. thats another trainset that I haven't experienced yet. Peter
Just so long as things don't get so bad the MTA has to send a salvage ship with a big grappling hook off the coast of Deleware :-)
Everbody blows things far out of proportion like the 'Anthrax thing.' TA is working hard to make up for deficits in rolling stock that gives me the dirty/greasy work. Guys talk about possible exposure hazards. Hey, get the grappling hook n bring em home. Seawater cleans. Peter
yes i was talking about kaw. plus i am hearing rumors that the 7200 stock numbers of kawasaki is out to be reworked. the bombs i know their story already. they are in and out in and out, but it doesn't bother me because they are still good quality machines besidess the failure here and there. question for you: sometimes their hvacs run a little loud and vibrates on the bombardier. why is that?
Why the loudness sometimes and sometimes not......
The system kicks up when it is adjusting the comfort temperature level on the inside of the cars. As for the vibration, it comes with the sound!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
oh, because the last time 6307 in late summer was running lout and vibrating loud. i thought it probably had a loose part or belt or something. thanks for the response.
re. Boeing - Vertol it looks as though I've really gone and opened up the proverbial can of worms here. And to think onw week ago I'd never even heard of Boeing - Vertol!!!
.......Nice to see some things never change.
I for one, am glad that Bombardier is suing Amtrak over the Acela trains. This is Amtrak's fault. They shouldn't have went for a custom-designed product. They also should not have insisted that the trains be built in America. They should have went for an off-the-shelf tilting train. ABB (later Adtranz and now Bombardier) had the X2000 train, there was the Talgo, (both tested by Amtrak) and Fiat (now Alstom) had the Pendolino. Amtrak could have tested a Pendolino in the Northeast or at least considered doing so, but they didn't.
As for the R142's, I blame the state for much of the trouble. Yes, Bombardier should have been tougher on quality control at the Plattsburgh plant. They should have built more of the components in-house instead of outsourcing them. But it was the state that insisted that the trains be built in New York State by people not experienced in building subway cars. It was not a practical decision, it was a political one. Just like Amtrak's (or Congress's) decision that insisted the Acela trains be built in America. I'm not saying that American products are crap. I believe the opposite is true. Budd made excellent railcars, for example. Rail cars need to be to be built by people who know how to build them or by people who have been properly taught how to build them. If those people happen to live overseas, well, that's the fault of Congress and state governments. They got all swept up in highway and airport fever from the 1930s to the 1960s and let trains go to hell. Maybe if they paid more attention to trains, streetcars and interurbans during that time and dumped that 1890s Populist attitude that the railroads were still greedy monopolists, maybe we'd have more people here in America who know how to build high-quality rail cars.
of course, but many in here can't see that.
"They should have went for an off-the-shelf tilting train. ABB (later Adtranz and now Bombardier) had the X2000 train, there was the Talgo, (both tested by Amtrak) and Fiat (now Alstom) had the Pendolino. Amtrak could have tested a Pendolino in the Northeast or at least considered doing so, but they didn't."
Which of these, if any, would have passed the FRA's strict crashworthiness requirements?
If the Talgo Pendular train can be modified to meet FRA crashworthiness requirements, which they had to have been in order to be running in the Northwest, then so could an X2000 or Pendolino. If you read the TGVweb section of the European Railway Server website (mercurio.iet.unipi.it/tgv/tgvindex.html), it says that Amtrak went with Bombardier because of their financial package, not the technical merits of the American Flyer/Acela train, of which there weren't any, because in 1996 the train only existed on the drawing board and in computer animations. The TGV doesn't count as a prototype because Amtrak's Acela shares very little technology with the TGV.
Bombardier financed $611 million for the 20 train sets and the 15 HHLs that are replacing the E60s. They also agreed to pay stiff penalties for late deliveries on top of the $611 million. Trains magazine in 1996 said that unless Bombardier produced "an unusually superior product" (which I thought they might), they would lose money on the deal, which I'm sure they did. Bombardier's experience in the North American railcar market was also a factor, but they had no previous successful experience in making high-speed trains. Their last venture into high-speed rail, the Canadian LRC train was a big failure. Amtrak also changed a lot of the specs of the Acela constantly. Amtrak hoped to get the best train for the least amount of money, but it looks like that strategy blew up in their faces.
Whoa! What problems are the R142's having that may prompt the TA to sue the manufacturer? I am getting dejavu all over again from the Rockwell and Pullman issues of the early 1980s a la R46.
That's les Francaises for you. They can't build trains for s**t, and then now they're looking for someone else to blame. Why those people at Amtrak chose Bombardier over ASEA's X2000 I have no idea. But beyond that it's a matter of time before cock-ups like this occur.
The report in the Boston Globe read totally differently. Apparently, and in line with my own understanding of the issues, Acela had problems with wheel wear, software, and mechanical failures -- none of which are really within Amtrak's control. I don't really know enough about the electrical details but as I understand, the ability to run on the NEC under PRR wires was part of the design-and-build contract... If they are claiming that Amtrak gave them duff information, then they should have sent out field engineers to measure the system before they built it, n'est pas? FYI, when Siemens was designing EMU for the British Rail system (more of a bitch than PRR system with all their conventional, interference-prone signalling equipment), that was precisely what they did -- sent out people from Germany over to see the electrical systems for themselves. The Heathrow Express "HX" EMU's (class 332) was certified for Railtrack operation on its first attempt.
Lexcie
Bombardier is a Canadian firm. As to technical competence, production quality, on time etc. remember the following.
good old EMD long term dominant US diesel producer has had 'lemon' production runs (part of why GE has overtaken them for the last two decades), CAF has been having trouble doing the new Metro cars for DC, BREDA v. MBTA and even hallowed BUDD whose carbodies, up to the M-1's were IMHO the best, had severe problems building the original Metroliners. And the French TGV's are just rolling up the miles.
Dear SubTalkers,
Are there any other women out there? Reading the names, I feel all
alone sometimes. I know there are woment transit workers. I know
that women buy my shirts too.
Ladies, speak up please!
Very few, I'm afraid. (Sorry. I'm male too.) I've also noticed that at times this board is not particularly female-friendly. That's a shame.
:-) Andrew
I would personally love to see more females out here in the transit buff field, but its a field that the VERY few females get into. I know of friends that have girlfriends that support thier hobby (i.e. go on trips, take a few photos here and there) BUT never get into it die hard like most male buffs do.
BRING ON THE GIRL BUFFS!!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
And I suspect that some women who do love subways as much as we menfolk do, who read amd enjoy this board may use psuedonyms when doing so, for some very practical reasons. There are real reasons for being careful, so I don't blame them if this is the case.
Mark
Actually when i was working at the Museum as a Volunteer, i did meet about one or 2 female buffs. I knew she was a buff because her dad was a Motorman, and unlike most fake railfans she knew alot! she could tell me several differences between a R44 and R46. Anyways i referred her to this website, and gave her my number but i never heard from her again. :( However, when the museum reopens the Education people will call me back, and i will be back at the museum giving my usual tours. When i give tours i always wear a train shirt because thats what the museum wants so, if i ever meet a Female buff again i will continue to refer them to this site. AND YES MEN THEY DO EXIST! ME GOING OUT WITH SOMEONE WHO LIKES TRAINS AS MUCH AS I DO IS A SCARY THOUGHT THO! Anyways, they are out there men! they might be Rare like a Redbird on the 6 these days but they do exist! i have met a female buff who was 9 once on the E train! Happiness with a female Railfan is a Railfan window away!!!
Meh.
i have met a female buff who was 9 once on the E train!
Some of us ain't much into paedophilia...
How do you do that? You're a grown-up with a job and there you were, talking to a young 9 year girl...
Suppose he meant 'while railfanning on a weekend'
(or holiday).... it aint all about work, folks.
Life without FUN is no Fun at all.
I'm not surprised that it's mostly men here (me included). Trains are machines, like cars, power tools, boats, etc, which, as far as I know, are also mostly male interests.
But by all means, subway grrl is most welcome here, and if there are any other females out there, speak up!!
Also, is Peggy Darlington stil involved with this site?
Also, is Peggy Darlington still involved with this site?
She is... I'm holding up a project we started earlier this year (gotta get out there and take some more photos)...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought for a time that Hank Eisenstein's girl might be a good candidate for Subtalk but I haven't heard much from Hank lately (I hope you got off the dime and married that gem) We did have a BX 75 or something like that a year and a half ago. She got mad at some of us and left the site. Yes, we could use a few of the fair sex to sooth the heated brows of this macho cast.
"We did have a BX 75 or something like that a year and a half ago. She got mad at some of us and left the site. Yes, we could use a few of the fair sex to sooth the heated brows of this macho cast."
What does that supporter of delinquency have to do with anything fair? She got mad that too few people here agreed with her pro-criminal views. Good riddance.
You said that Big Al, not me. But if you can keep a secret, I agree with you.
I thought for a time that Hank Eisenstein's girl might be a good candidate for Subtalk but I haven't heard much from Hank lately (I hope you got off the dime and married that gem).
They did get hitched, in August... she did seem to enjoy Member's Day at Branford back in September.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While my wife has let me turn my basement into the Transit Museum Annex and operating railroad, Mrs. Train Dude does not share my passion for the iron horse. On the other hand, my oldest granddaughter is a railfan and the other two love to play with the electric trains. Hence, my wife comes down to the basement to play, too.
On the other hand, if you go to many railfan events, you will see plenty of women. I was to the Spencer Shops in N.C. and was a amazed how many southern belles love trains. Still, if you want a hobby that attracts women, get into motorcycles. They can't resist.
BTW: Not related to trains but the Nassau County cousin of my cycle club has a great tradition. The women members of the club ride in the altogether on their birthday. Perhaps Dave might want to promote something ................. nah, what am I thinking?
>>>BTW: Not related to trains but the Nassau County cousin of my cycle club has a great tradition. The
women members of the club ride in the altogether on their birthday.<<
So THAT's why women's bikes are missing that crossbar.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I used to ride motorcycles until my wife put the kabosh on it. She knew of too many people that had serious accidents. I might get a street cycle when I retire from teaching. The fact you're daughter is a railfan enthusiast is a good sign we are winning some of the ladies over, and I look forward to going to different railfan events when I do hang up the books and chalk. Branford, Spencer, etc, it seems there will be enough of those outings to keep me busy. I look forward to meeting you and some of my other railfan buddies. Have a great weekend Dude.
"I look forward to meeting you and some of my other railfan buddies."
Ditto here Fred.
Just bring it on over to Bus/Subtalk here Yeah Baby Yeah!!!!!
Peace
David J.
I sure wish some girls with Dragon clips would come here more often. At the bus festival a few years back I gave this site to a Chinese reporter, but she never visited Subtalk.
What are dragon clips?
Dragon Clips-are large, oversized hairclips usually worn by Chinese women.
See? You learn something new everyday here. Not just about the trains!
I guess the part of the brain that appreciates trains is linked to the part of the brain that appreciates the 3 Stooges. And as we all know, this portion of the brain is sorely underdeveloped in most women.
My wife (and previous girl-friends) put up with my dedication to both, and will occasionally derive some small pleasure from each, but they'll never put in a train or Stooges tape into the VCR of their own accord.
I guess you'll make (or already are making) a guy train buff very happy.
I'm not sure about that. But I think I appreciate the subways in
a different way than most of you guys. I appreciate them both as
transportation, and an important part of New York culture. Where
in most places people are so isolated that they can just ignore anyone
who is different from them, here, we are all thrown together underground. It is very inclusive and a big equalizer. Also, in my
days as a starving actress especially, the only practical and affordable way to get around. You'll notice that many "stars" still
ride the subways to work. "Real" New Yorkers ride the trains.
I don't much care about the hardware part!
'rail' interest is of course a huge spectrum. some count rivets and vents to ID sub variants of rare production, others are thrilled by the histories of glamourous long distance trains of the past. some of us are interested in the 'macro' engineering details like station design, major junctions, etc. AND the social science part IS a major piece of it for me. and as to the gender split, clearly the 'hardware' stuff has a longterm bias built in, although that is changing. (And my step-daughter got raised to like trains enough that she took her boyfriend on a steam excursion in Jersey several years ago.) Enjoy the parts you are interested by , check out some of the other details (wider horizons are better), and don't bemoan the gender split. see ya on the subway.
"...I think I appreciate the subways in
a different way than most of you guys. I appreciate them both as
transportation, and an important part of New York culture....
I don't much care about the hardware part!"
Interesting. I wonder if this does say something about the differing basic orientation of the sexes.
I think guys do also appreciate the cultural aspect of the subway (perhaps without realizing this), but yes, we do seem to get excited about the hardware.
ARGH!!!
but yes, we do seem to get excited about the hardware.
Must. Not. Let. That. Thought. To. Get. through.
Resist.
ARRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHH!!!
Well, said, David!
There is enough to enjoy in this diverse hobby that all genders and racial or ethnic groups are represented.
BMTman
What I find interesting about the demographics here is the representation of all age groups, races, etc.....
We see lively discussion between folks still in high school, people in their 30s (like me), and people with memories of the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan. some of us are lifelong New Yorkers (me again), others just moved here recently, while others moved away but have never forgotten the sound of a "slant" (or R1-9) rushing by on the express tracks...
Yet we al have something to talk about here.....
But subway grrl is right- few women, and even she is more interested in the culture than the mechanical things..
I also like the cultural aspects, but they're a distant second to the physical system itself, to me.
Put that way, quite a few women like trains, but are not railfans, per se.
I took a number of girlfriends on train trips, but the railfanning was not the main, or only, objective--a trip on an intercity train could be a date in the dining car (when dining cars were more like restaurants), a steam excursion a ride through scenic woods with a picnic at the end-- ... "a book of timetables beneath the bough / a loaf of bread / a jug of wine / and thou beside me / singing in the wilderness /" ... Oh, excuse me, I digress.
My wife insisted on riding the boards on San Francisco cable cars--an experience that doesn't require interest in the hardware. My daughters (now 9 and 11) love a trolley ride, esp. the elder, but they also want a mall or attraction at the end of the line.
Many of us male railfans (almost a redundancy) are interested in the social, scientific, amd other aspects of transit beyond standing in the front of the train and looking at the signals and switches. It doesn't seem to be known that a lot of prominent transit pros are also railfans, as well as a considerable number of operating personnel.
I sense that your own interest must go a bit beyond the girls and women I mention, though, are why would you be posting here?
I come at this from left field, I guess, and don't follow a lot of the
strings at all. I am interested in the cultural things. I like to hear how people became buffs, Subway Songs, news having to do with
the trains - particularly from the insiders.
Of course, now that I created a whole business around the NYC Subways
I feel a bit proprietary about them. Don't we all?
Excuse me, I don't follow all the threads. What kind of business?
My company is the New York City Subway Line. They sell my products
at the NYC Transit Museum shops. I also have a web site at
nycsubwayline.com
Talk about thinking about the trains 24/7!!!
Cool! Someone's found a way to make an honest buck out of this hobby!
( Hey, Dave, maybe you make a few bucks for nycsubway.org by being a model for T-shirts ) ;-)
( Hey, Dave, maybe you make a few bucks for nycsubway.org by being a model for T-shirts )
Uh....Paul, isn't it the idea here to make T-shirts that will SELL????
;-D
(Sorry, Dave!)
Talk about thinking about the trains 24/7!!!
That would be crazy. I am a kid and I like trains. I think it would be pretty tough to keep a conversation on trains 24/7. I think 3/7 is enough for me, especially because I have schoolwork to do. I have to sleep too!
(Depending on how long I get to be on SubTalk. Less or none on schooldays.)
: |
Railfan Pete.
Talk about thinking about the trains 24/7!!!
That would be crazy. I am a kid and I like trains. I think it would be pretty tough to keep a conversation on trains 24/7. I think 3/7 is enough for me, especially because I have schoolwork to do. I have to sleep too!
(Depending on how long I get to be on SubTalk. Less or none on schooldays.)
: |
Railfan Pete.
Same things seem to apply to the streetcar side of the house as well.
There are some small differences, though.
At BSM (Baltimore Streetcar Museum) we currently have two women as qualified operators. Both know what the differences are between the cars, one is fully qualified (operates both two man and one man cars), but the other is two man only. (One Man and Two Man refers to the number of crew on each, not the sex of the officeholder.)
I met my wife of 26 years in our carhouse, while setting up a car to pull it out. She does look for streetcar stuff (artwork & collectables) to decorate the house. We had, at one time, a woman Instructor. She left us to take a management job at the local transit authority. A woman was the President of the Museum in the 1980's.
They are out there, but can hide pretty well. You just gotta look.
I am interested in lots of other things than streetcars and transit.
I remember those Baltimore trolleys. My parents and grandparents
remember them better!
Subway grrl was originally from Baltimore. Just had to move to the
big city though!
Subway Grrl: thanks for doing the Canarsie "L" Line shirt! I bought one in my size (2x) the week it arrived at the Brooklyn NYCT Museum store.
I was waiting for that one to come out for awhile (Obviously, having a 'gray' background I assume it wasn't high on the list for routes on a shirt? Nevertheless, I was told by one of the clerks that the museum store got lots of requests for the "L").
Again, thanks for a great product! I'll be sure to wear it proudly while I railfan with some friends this weekend!
BMTman
2X....a model
BMTman is a BIG man, just as the BMT is a BIG system!
... I thought he bought 2 shirts, afterall, there are 3 colors...!
Alan and the rest of you----I simply drive my wife nuts with my songs and lullabies about the Sea Beach. What's that? Oh, you knew that already. What,though? That I drive her nuts or that I am a nut?
I told my wife I wanted to be buried beneath the tracks of the Brighton Line. If all you do to your wife is sing songs, you're not working hard enough. Remember, our mission is to trick them into believing that we are all irredeemably insane.
I'm getting Alan, believe me. My wife thinks I am off the wall. When I ask her to describe me in one word, a game we play often, she always gives the same answer------Weird.
I know Fred s Wife Linda, and her calling Fred Weird, puts it mildly
Maybe we should be careful not to let this discussion revolve around find mates for ourselves that like subways. I think it would be kind of self-centered of me to just look at the question of women subay fans from that point of view. Also, I would think that women railfans might like to be treated as more than just potential mates. If I were a woman on this board I'd probably keep quiet about it just to keep guys from trying to pick me up, based on what I've read so far.
Mark
I speak to female transit enthusiasts and see them every day.
Many do hide behind pseudonyms for varied reasons.
Many just enjoy the hobby for being a hobby and not as a pick-up attempt.
It is attitudes like some of the ones expresses in rhis thread that keeps females off the board along with the outdated beliefs that females cant like trains but most stay home with their dolls and sewing and cooking and finding a guy.
If I were a female reading this. I 'd be sacared off too!
I'd just like to say that I have never had any inappropriate comments
made to me on this board. I think you guys are alright! As far as
finding a partner who shares one's interests. Most people would
love to find that no matter what their hobbies.
Well maybe you can talk to my wife. She has no idea how I can be so avidly in live with a particular train. Frankly, sometimes I also wonder that, too.
I think common interests are a fine way to find a date or a mate. I'd even extend that to the workplace. Think how much better it is than some of the places where people self-consciously meet. I've met women who I became close to in all kinds of situations. I met my wife at work.
Of course there are cautions. Workplace romances are a problem because you might break up and still have to woek with your "ex." Awkward does not begin to describe the possibilities.
As to meeting because of a shared hobby or interest, what's wrong with that? The only problem I see is if one of the parties is just pretending to be interested in a subject to meet someone. I knew a guy who signed up for aerobics classes because it was like 95% women. AFAIK he never got a date, but I think he feels healthier.
As to meeting because of a shared hobby or interest, what's wrong with that? The only problem I see is if one of the parties is just pretending to be interested in a subject to meet someone. I knew a guy who signed up for aerobics classes because it was like 95% women. AFAIK he never got a date, but I think he feels healthier.
At least that guy had the right idea with aerobics. Over ten years ago, I worked with this single man in his mid-20's who decided that taking an evening class at a nearby college would be a good way to meet women. That would have made sense, except for the fact that he enrolled in a class on differential equations, and as you might expect almost all the other students were male. By the time he figured it all out, it was too late for a refund.
Notwithstanding its not how I met my wife, I think I've met the most interesting women when I've been involved in political or fine or performing arts activities. Of course that only works if you're really involved in the activity for the activity itself, IMO.
I've never gone out with anyone as a result of taking a class or a course or a seminar. Except one time I dated the receptionist, but I don't think that counts.
It always helps when you have a friend who will drag our ass out of the shower and tell you that you are going to your college's first dance of the year, our so called "Hello Dance" I had just refereed five Pop Warner football games that Saturday and was exhausted as hell, but no matter I was going to that dance with my two buddies if it killed me. So I reluctantly went, saw a girl I was attracted to and asked her to dance. That was it. Thirty one years married to my Linda. I haven't seen my pal Patrick since 1973 but he will always stand tall with me. Now if I could only get Linda to understand my fantaticism for my Sea Beach......Anyone have any suggestions? I'm all ears.
What haven't you told her already about your favorite subway route?
I decided a long time ago that I would not date anyone from work. It's just too risky. I know I would feel very uncomfortable if I still had to work with someone I had dated and broken up with.
Hey Grrrl. What shirts? What buisness? Are you sure none of that has been even a little creepy? Seems like every other post is from some guy who wants to date you (even if it's a little veiled.) The other posts are from guys who drive thier wives crazy. Oh wells...
Jeez, Panama,
I wouldn't begin to take anything I've read here as wanting to go
out with me - veiled or not (sounds very Taliban!)
As to the subway or not on a date issue...I think it should depend
on a few factors. When we were dating and going somewhere fancy where
I would wear high heels, I told my husband "This is a taxi only ensemble." Same if it was very cold and I was wearing a dress. (Your
legs just freeze while you are waiting.
Otherwise, buses or subways were no problem.
I married a born and bred Manhattanite who didn't know how to drive
until age 40, and didn't "do" Brooklyn. I broke him of that one too!
Which begs the question: Is your husband a railfan?
*****
BTW, it was very common for New Yorkers not to drive--there wasn't the need. My mother and grandmother never learned to drive. My father drove because he sometimes had to for business. My brother didn't get a license until he moved to the suburbs inhis '30s. We never went for a car drive except for the rare occasions that he could borrow a company car.
That all must seem incomparably weird to 98% of Americans.
Re my husband. Nope! And his famous quote when told my idea about
making subway tee shirts "The world doesn't need another tee shirt."
Haha, you sure showed him!
Subway grrl, are you the person behing all those T-shirts with a subway route on them?? Wow..if so, you really ARE a railfan, LOL.
And also practical enought to make a buck off it.
My grandparents didn't drive, nor does my aunt in Chicago. My mother didn't get a license until she was 34.
Still, I think many guys become public transportation fans for two driving-related reasons. First, when a guy gets a job the first thing he does is go into debt getting a car. A girl has to replace her polyester miniskirts or jeans, depending on whether she went to Catholic or public school, with office clothes. Thus you see more girls than guys on subways and buses rush hours.
Second, noticing this, many guys realize it is a way to overcome how dangerous it is to girl-watch while driving. And when they get bored checking out pocketless pants so tight you can read the size label underneath, their attention turns from girls to their surroundings. They start noticing all the idle express tracks, abandoned platforms and so forth that make the subways worthy of first-person historical research.
Really.
Railroads are in my blood, it seems. My grandfather's family lived near a railroad for a time, and several of his family members worked on it for some time. We lived about a mile from the Grand Trunk Western Railroad in South Bend and could hear trains from our house. When I was teething, my father would bundle me up in the car, drive down to the tracks and park, and wait for a train to pass. It did the trick every time. We'd park next to the tracks while on a Sunday drive and wait for a train, then wave to the brakeman as the caboose went by. More often than not, he'd wave back.
Once, while driving along Main St. in Mishawaka, I saw a flight of stairs leading down from the sidewalk, and asked my father if that was a subway entrance. He replied no, but that New York had lots of them. Not long after that, we were in the city on vacation, and the rest is history.
P. S. Girl watching had nothing to do with my becoming a subway buff.
Steve,
I love your subway story, but can't help but wonder if you have
an urge to chew on something while on the trains... a kind of
Pavlovian thing, y'know?
Grrl, sorry. Still can't figure out why you won't just tell me what T-shirts you make? Take a cab, I don't care. Take the bus, fine. BUT WHAT T-SHIRTS ARE YOU RESPONSABLE FOR?!?!@?!
1. visit her site.
2. zip the yap.
"It is attitudes like some of the ones expresses in rhis thread that keeps females off the board..."
I don't believe I've read anything here that could be frightening to females. Maybe I missed these posts. Could you provide some examples of what you're talking about?
Here's a joke... if you don't like inappropriate things, press your back button now...! This joke does not reflect my true feelings, I just heard it from a friend and would like to share it...
Why couldn't Helen Keller Drive?
She was a woman!
I lurk and occasionally post on airliners.net's aviation forum (it's extremely busy, hundreds of posts a day from people all around the world), and there have been many comments there bemoaning the dearth of female aviation enthusiasts. Nor will you see many female roadgeeks on misc.transport.road. For some reason, transportation in general has little appeal to women from an enthusiast/hobbyist aspect.
I've been lurking here for a while, and I can say I've never seen anything that's been threatening...... I'm a history buff, and as far as I'm concerned, I think riding a close-to 100 year old transit system to work every day is pretty cool. So I try to find out everything I can about it.
And I don't know if I'll ever got to the stage of knowing the difference between a R44 and a R46. Because that would start freaking my friends out. :) They deal with me enough pointing out the abandoned stations on the uptown 6.
And I don't know if I'll ever got to the stage of knowing the difference between a R44 and a R46.
It's not that hard to figure it out. Not only just about these but also R33 singles and R36's and MainLine cars.
And more subtle differences such as between an R62 and R62A.
(I still haven't figured it out yet,)
There might be more but I can only think of these at the moment.
Railfan Pete.
( I am a boy)
Well, you can start identifying the differemnces between the 44s and 46s like this...
The 44s run on the "A". All the cars that look just like them, on the "F", "G", and "R" are 46s....
Of course,there are mosre substantive diffrences, but once you know which cars are on which line, you can start to look for diffrences between the
Few, if any here.....and god forbid you suggest to your girlfriend about taking the subway into the city for the show, they will look at you as if you lost your mind. So us males go solo with the subway buff thing.
and god forbid you suggest to your girlfriend about taking the subway into the city for the show
I'm not sure that's a railfan issue. Maybe more like a "I'm only worth a Metrocard swipe?" issue. ;-)
What if you don't have a car? .. I guess then you'll see whether or not she truly likes you...
Good point. Should try that out one day, claim the car is in the shop or what not.
I'd go for $4 for her own unlimited day MetroCard lol
Your shirts? What are your shirts about?
I know. What's the chance of finding a Subway gal who can find this site?
I know many girls in my school don't give a flip about trains ( : ( ) but if they ride 'em they just do.
I tend to think railroading and railfanning is the nature of a masculine job, but I have nothing against women working for the railroad.
It's just that men are more likely to be attracted by trains than women. In actuality there aren't many women out there doing the same.
Railfan Pete.
Sounds like you are giving this a great deal of thought, Pete!
I would say that life is generally more interesting all around when
there is a diverse group of people. That's why I was curious to
know if there were other women participating here. I remember one
being listed at the front of the site as a contributor to it.
I often get the feeling that many of the folks who visit the site are
kind of lonely or loners. This is their club where they have a group
to share their feelings with. I remember one railfan reaching out here when his mother died. The SubTalkers were really nice to him.
I'm glad you have a group to share your hobby with!
I was so glad to leave a job of twenty one years to enter Transit and no longer be on the road alone. Now i have so many friends on the job but 'weer be de wimmen?' Problem is that women of skill somehow just don't fit into the'mens world. So, Subway grrl, you have to make the effort not only to be recognised but to also bring in your 'sisters of the third rail.' I wanna meet a wimmen car inspector!!!! Hey, firm and full is good...no chubolas cuz the work is safety related and the job description requires you to be able to crawl into tight spaces to make tactile inspections of dark places. Make me dirty, make me greasy, make me black from head to toe like a soft coal miner...I love my new job and any woman who can snap a socket onto a ratchet can be a NYCTA CAR INSPECTOR too. Peter
Sigh! Did it have to come to this?
No, nothing wrong. I respect women, especially women who have some technical skill. We're working with 'experienced' men who have to be asked in oral interviews what an adjustable crescent wrench is. Heck, a farmers wife who can start a John Deer three cylinder 'jonny popper' on a can of paint thinner is true TA gold. Where be de wimmen, find me de wimmen car inspectors. I need a real woman who's not afraid of being 'IN THE HOLE' or 'ON THE JUICE.' A real woman uses LAVA instead of CAMAY. A real woman uses GOJO instead of ALMAY. You didn't step into anything that any good CAR INSPECTOR could reach into and pull a lockwasher out of. Peter
I'm quite male (happily married, two daughters, two sons, one son-in-law, two grandsons) but I can account for at least five females besides yourself on the board. Out of respect for their privacy I'll not identify them, except for Peggy Darlington, who posts under her own name and who has made some major contributions to other parts of this site. I'm also an active member of a couple of N scale model RR clubs (in New Jersey and North Carolina); the New Jersey club has four active female members, while the somewhat larger North Carolina club (North Raleigh Model RR Club) currently has none. Nancy Morris, secretary of Jersey Central Ntrak, is a real steam nut (she's nuts, she's usually steamed, and she thinks C&O 614 is the most magnificent machine ever) and a very good modeler as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...i know of 2 females that post here on occasion... so there's some around...
I'm female. I conduct expeditions into unknown territories. I'm referred to on the websites of Kevin Walsh and The Joe's. I'm pretty used to moving in arenas that excite mostly men. Enjoy it, Subway Grrl. No need to feel alone.
Great! It's good to hear from you!
Which web sites are Kevin Walsh and The Joes?
Are you a conductor here in NYC?
On which line?
Kevin Walsh's Forgotten New York website
The other site I'm not familiar with by that name... might be part of the Urban Exploration Ring
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're not alone Subway Grrl. This is MS.SEPTA (from Philly) answering your request if there are any female subtalkers on line. Send me an e-mail and we can definitley talk subtalk from a female's perspective. My e-mail address is niarenique@yahoo.com. Hope to hear from you soon.
if u guys want to check out NORAC signal rules, i recommend this sight highly. it shows u the signal and defines the definition, and then it shows the track diagrams. check it out
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sunder/java/DvrRte/NORAC.htm
I'm trying to think of as many songs as I can that are eithe rabot subways or at least mention them. So far I can only think of five:
"A Train" - Duke Ellington and Billy Strahorne
"Municipal Transit Authority Protest Song" - I don't know who the artists are
"Sounds of Silence" - Simon and Garfunkel:
And the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
The other two are more obscure:
"Put Your Hand Inside the Puppet Head" - They Might Be Giants
Adds up in the subway are the work of someone trying to please their boss...
"Back Stabbing Liar" - Mono Puff
Hear the scream that the turning subway makes/Hear the screams of the people in your way
If anyone can think of more, please let me know.
Mark
I'm trying to think of as many songs as I can that are either about subways or at least mention them. So far I can only think of five:
"A Train" - Duke Ellington and Billy Strahorne
"Municipal Transit Authority Protest Song" - I don't know who the artists are
"Sounds of Silence" - Simon and Garfunkel: And the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
The other two are more obscure:
"Put Your Hand Inside the Puppet Head" - They Might Be Giants: Adds up in the subway are the work of someone trying to please their boss...
"Back Stabbing Liar" - Mono Puff: Hear the scream that the turning subway makes/Hear the screams of the people in your way
If anyone can think of more, please let me know.
Mark
Charlie of the MTA (Boston)
Kingston Trio
Phil Hom
That's the Municipal Transit Authority Protest Song. I always had heard the Kingston Trio singing it as a kid, but I wasn't sure if it as theirs originally.
Thanks!
Mark
It was known as the MTA protest song. MTA was never spelled out
Let me tell you the story
Of a man named Charlie
On a tragic and fateful day
He put ten cents in his pocket,
Kissed his wife and family
Went to ride on the MTA
Charlie handed in his dime
At the Kendall Square Station
And he changed for Jamaica Plain
When he got there the conductor told him,
"One more nickel."
Charlie could not get off that train.
Chorus:
Did he ever return,
No he never returned
And his fate is still unlearn'd
He may ride forever
'neath the streets of Boston
He's the man who never returned.
Now all night long
Charlie rides through the tunnels
the station
Saying, "What will become of me?
Crying
How can I afford to see
My sister in Chelsea
Or my cousin in Roxbury?"
Charlie's wife goes down
To the Scollay Square station
Every day at quarter past two
And through the open window
She hands Charlie a sandwich
As the train comes rumblin' through.
As his train rolled on
underneath Greater Boston
Charlie looked around and sighed:
"Well, I'm sore and disgusted
And I'm absolutely busted;
I guess this is my last long ride."
{this entire verse was replaced by a banjo solo}
Now you citizens of Boston,
Don't you think it's a scandal
That the people have to pay and pay
Vote for Walter A. O'Brien
Fight the fare increase!
And fight the fare increase
Vote for George O'Brien!
Get poor Charlie off the MTA.
Chorus:
Or else he'll never return,
No he'll never return
And his fate will be unlearned
He may ride forever
'neath the streets of Boston
He's the man (Who's the man)
He's the man who never returned.
He's the man (Oh, the man)
He's the man who never returned.
He's the man who never returned.
I wish whoever edited the song book I have would have known not to spell it out. It would have saved me some typing. Thanks for the lyrics!
Mark
No problem. I found it on a MIT.EDU web site
BTW
M.T.A.= Metropolitan Transit Authority
Yeah, I was wondering about that one, too. Too bad the lyicist didn't have the clairvoyance to call it the MBTA Protest Song.
Mark
It was written as a campaign song for George O'Brian.
I remember years ago (late 80s/early 90s) when the Transit Museum had a film machine (not just a tv with a vcr), I saw a current (at that time) rap video that was done on the NYC subway, and was all about the subway. I forget who the group was, but the title was something like "Thats the men working on the train." Does anyone rememebr this, and if so, have more info? -Nick
There was that song the muppets sang from Sesame St. "On the subway"....
I don't remember that one, and as a muppet fan I say this to my shame. Do you remember the words? Maybe they will jobg my memory.
Mark
Dear Wannabe,
Looks like it's just us two gals for now!
How did you chose your web name?
Subwaygrrl
I while ago actually! I was considering changing it when I saw yours.... You posted fist, so you have first dibs.
Good call Wannabe. "If you're in a hurry take the express/ it will go right by your local address." Also, Bob Dylan's "Visions of Johanna." "The all night girls whisper of escapades out on the D train." I bet someone wrote a song about the Malbone St. wreck. Hello, why can't anybody figure out that "Downtown Train" is about the subway. (Tom Waits version, please. No rod Stewart.) Also, does "People on the platforms, waiting for the trains/ I can feel their hearts beating, just like pendulums swinging on chains" count? I suppose it could be Amtrak, but I doubt it. Thats also Dylan--I believe it's "Trying to get to Heaven." Theres gotta be many more, I think I have a brain freeze.
Hi You said please no Rod Stewart but as i remember it Downtown train does feature a music video of subway trains.
Regards Bob, Best Wishes from the UK
Ok, but I'll just listen to the Tom Waits origional while I ride the train, instead of watching the Rod Stewart video.
Soupy Sales used to have one on his show (back in the good old days)that was sung to the tune of the Army's "Cassons" (Those Cassons going rolling Along"
I don't remember much of the lyrics. If anyone does I would love to see it here.
O reh or reh?
Jim Carroll Band, People who died, lyrics go something like, soenso got killed by a subway train. This track was also featured in a film but i can't remember what!
Jim Carroll Band, People who died, lyrics go something like, soenso got killed by a subway train. This track was also featured in a film but i can't remember what!
Heres another Don't sleep in the subway by Petula Clark, early to mid 60s track. Regards Bob
New York, New York
Music: Leonard Bernstein
Lyrics: Betty Comden and Adolph Green
New York, New York:
A helluva town!
The Bronx is up and the Battery's down.
The people ride in a hole in the ground.
New York, New York:
It's a helluva town!
Additionally, the plot of the musical centers around a character called "Miss Turnsitles," whose face appears on a subway publicity poster rendering the character "Gabey" smitten.
Comden & Green also wrote lesser-known musical than On the Town, which I referenced above, entitled, Subways are for Sleeping. Since it's lesser-known, I can't quote any songs from that one.
Does Petula Clark know about this?
I thought of one that isn't about a subway, but "Clang, Clang, Clang Went the Trolley" from Meet Me in St. Louis is at least about rail transit, and since the closest thing St. Louis has today to a trolley is the MetroLink, and it does run underground in downtown...ok that's a stretch.
I also remembered "New York City" which was originally done by an indy band from Vancouver called Cub but covered by They Might Be Giants, which has these line "We kissed on the subway in the middle of the night."
Mark
There was also an indy or alternative track in the early 80s called Missing on the subway by a group called Dogs, issued in a picture sleeve.
I have that cast album! Lyrics by Comden & Green, music by Jule Styne. Here's a sample from "Subway Directions" -
Uptown by local to Van Cortlandt Park, wake up, get out, go up, cross over, go down, get on and then
Downtown by local to Sheepshead Bay, wake up, get out, go up
On the east side to Pelham Bay Park, wake up, get out, go down, cross over, go up, get on and then
Way out to Brooklyn and Far Rockaway, wake up, get out, go up, cross over, go down, get on again,
But be sure you wake at the end of the line, or you'll wake up to a fifty dollar fine.
As far as musicals go, there's also "Another Hundred People" from Company (which also happens to be on a Poetry in Motion card):
Another hundred people just got off of the train and came up from the ground
While another hundred people just got off of the bus and are looking around
At another hundred people who got off of the plane, who are looking at us
Who got off of the plane and the train and the bus maybe yesterday...
Has everyone forgotten the song Lullaby of Broadway which talks about "the whistle of the subway train" but i can't remember who its by!
"Lullaby of Broadway" is featured in the current Broadway revival hit musical 42nd Street, though it was written for a film in the 1930s. It was later part of the stage version created in the early 1980s. The lyrics are by Al Dubin, music by Harry Warren.
And by the chairman of the board Frank Sinatra you can't forget him! And I think it says "The RUMBLE of the subway trains, the rattle of the taxis."
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
One ive just thought of this morning, 1220 gmt here in the uk. A track called "The Comfort Zone" by Londonbeat, lyrics go something like, 9am on the New York Subway,strap hanging, commuting on the ?
Regards Bob
Native New Yorker by Odyssey 1977, lyrics as follows, "You walk, riding the subway,running with people, Up in Harlem, Down on Broadway,
The OutKast song "Elevators" off of the album ATLiens:
Where me and my nigga rodes the MARTA, through the hood
Just tryin ta find that hookup
Also a bus reference:
We caught the 86 Lithonia headed to Decatur
Here are two obscure "subway" songs.
Subway....from the 1976 album "Children of the world" by the Bee Gees. The disco tune "You should be dancing" was from this LP.
The Old Canarsie Line......by vaudeville comedian Benny Bell.
Bill "Newkirk"
'Angel of Death' by Slayer
Good song for its genre but not sure what reference to the subway it makes. Gotta hand it to them, "Angel of Death" is extremely graphic.
wayne
When the Big Bug hits carbody in shop, 720 kilowatts really rocks. Peter
"The people ride in the hole in the ground"
Don't forget us people IN THE HOLE or ON THE JUICE. Peter
Here is a classic, lyrics are credited below:
BLUE ÖYSTER CULT
"HOT RAILS TO HELL (1277: EXPRESS TO HEAVEN)"
Riding the underground
Swimming in sweat
A rumble above and below
Hey, cop don't you know
The heat's on all right
The hot summer day didn't quit for the night.
Chorus:
1277: Express to heaven
Speeding along like dynamite
1277: Express to heaven
Rumbles the steel like a dogfight
You caught me in a spell
Trying to leave but you know damn well
The heat from below will burn your eyes out
Blackened-out eyes
Scratched on the wall
Stoned-out looks from the crowd
The king will not know
On the wall it was said
The flash of his cards were sprayed with red.
Repeat chorus
"Hot Rails To Hell (1277: Express to Heaven)"
Lyrics and music by Joseph Bouchard
(C) 1973 B. O'Cult Songs Inc. ASCAP All rights reserved
MrSlant40 RULES: when you apply the BIG BUG to the third rail shoe to move the train out of the shop and you mess up, that's what you get: FRIED to the gizzard. Peter
Nothing like a little heavy metal to get the juices going. That's a lotta fry down there, no doubt.
My dad - a 15-year veteran of 207th Street Shoppe, saw an unfortunate accident back in 1977 - he said sparks flew in every direction. We have a healthy respect for the third rail and the contact shoes.
wayne
I have heard the stories....nothing like the Big Bug hitting carbody though. Wimped out being motorman on a powertest...took the bug instead. Propulsion man told me about a guy who had his arm cauterized off moving out a trainset. OnTheJuice, Peter
Another song with a subway reference is "Games People Play" by the Spinners:
12:45
Heading for the subway home
There is the song "The Man That Never Returned" but, it refers to the Boston Subway.
#3 West End Jeff
Since I am pretty much a hard rock/heavy metal fan, I know of several
rock songs from the 1970's and 1980's that mention subways:
Blue Oyster Cult - "Morning Final" from the album "Agents Of Fortune", includes a sound effect of a train pulling into a station
at the end of the song.
Van Halen - "Everybody Wants Some!" ("You can't get romantic on a
subway line")
Berlin - "The Metro"
Ratt - "You're In Love" ("You take the midnight subway train, you're
calling all the shots")
Blue Oyster Cult - "Morning Final" from the album "Agents Of Fortune", includes a sound effect of a train pulling into a station
at the end of the song.
You are right - and that's an R32 (Pre-GOH, of course) whose brakes you hear at the end of the song, which mentions the subway a few times during the lyrics - it's about a random underground murder - the sound effect is actually at the beginning of the next track "Tenderloin", one of only a handful of songs written by Allen Lanier but one of two on this album.
"Morning Final" was also written by Joe Bouchard, who wrote the other subway saga "Hot Rails To Hell".
wayne
Maybe a bit off target but there was a brilliant English track by The Jam about the London Underground called Down in the tube station at Midnight!
I'm afraid I haven't gone through the entire thread, but has anyone posted Allan Sherman's J. C. Cohen? (Before anyone asks, this was released in 1964.)
I thought I knew all of Allan Sherman's songs. I had all his albums, My son the Folk Singer, My Son the Celebrity, & My Son the Nut, but I never heard of J.C. Cohen. Sounds like typical Sherman!! However, after reading the thread "discrimination and the BMT" earlier this week I doubt there was a subway conductor named J.C. Cohen.
Somewhere else in this thread (in response to Phil Hom) is my post re. the Blue Oyster Cult song "Hot Rails To Hell (1277: Express To Heaven)", which glorifies the Queens IND and one R-6-2 in particular.
ANOTHER one, more obscure, is by Michael Shrieve, former drummer for Santana - released a disc called "The Michael Shrieve Project" somewhere around 1980, and one tune was called "City Bound 'E' Train".
wayne
Alcohol buzz: Jethro Tull: "...the brake handle was gone and the train kept going on, the train kept going on." Carry a bootleg spare in my pocket. Peter
Hot Rails to Hell? That just about sums up that 1973 ride, doesn't it?:-)
It sure does, and man that rates as one of the great coincidences of my entire life. The recording came out earlier in the year, May 1973 to be exact.
There's a 1277 still in service in Washington DC.
I liked to think of R46 #1278 (now #6254) as the "new 1277".
wayne
I'll bet it's running on the F, too.:-)
I have seen it mostly on the "G", since it is a "single", the highest-numbered cars of the R46 order were without their non-driving motors, and had even numbers only. Since the "G" runs six-cars R46, that's where these singles wind up.
wayne
-The Last Poets, "On the Subway"
-Dion, "Written on the Subway Wall/Little Star," and on the same album (Yo Frankie), "Gotta Get to You" (I'd take a city subway or a ten-speed bike...)
-Steely Dan, "Negative Girl" (She's on the train to somewhere up by Fordham Road)
-Robert Lamm, "When the Rain Becomes" (It's a dreary world of subway stops and chimney stacks)
-And at the end of Chicago (Transit Authority)'s "Take Me Back to Chicago," the Pointer Sisters shout out Chicago landmarks and neighborhoods, including "CTA"
-Even before Chicago Transit Authority, there was a group called The Chicago Loop
-Soprano sax and keyboard player Sammy Peralta has an album called "On the One," with a cover photo of R-62As on the Broadway el.
-Columbia University has an a cappella group called Uptown Vocal (pun on "Local"), whose album "Token Gesture" also has an R-62A (#2048), but the bullet is where the cab window should be. That album has two versions of "Take the 'A' Train," and the disc itself is made to look like a token
-The cover photo of Billy Joel's "Turnstiles" album was taken in the Astor Place 6 station
And a personal favorite is Tom Lehrer's "The Subway Song,"
about the MBTA:
H is for my alma mater, Harvard
C is Central, next stop on the line
K is for the cozy Kendall station
and C is Charles, that overlooks the brine
P is Park Street, busy Boston center
and W is Washington, you see
Put them all together, they spell "Hckc-Pw!"
Which is just about what Boston means to me :)
I'm sure I'll find more of this drivel...
Whoops, one more... Uptown Vocal's album Caravan has a 3D-rendered PCC car on it, looks like MBTA Green Line.
Sheryl Crow's Globe Sessions album has a twelfth "hidden" track called "Subway," which starts "I was riding on the E train..." Unfortunately it is principally devoted to a defense of Bill Clinton.
What about the Londa Ronstadt song "Poor, poor pitiful me". Isn't there a line in the song about awaiting for the double E (EE), the train don't run here anymore, poor, poor pitiful me ? If I'm wrong, correct me on this.
Bill "Newkirk"
You're right...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also, "Walk of Life" from Dire Straits isn't about the trains, but rather a subway musician.
Mark
Here's a long forgotten one - I found the sheet music for it on eBay -- "I Saw It in the B.R.T."
How about "Down on the Subway"?
Elton John, in his song "All The Young Girls Love Alice" (from "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road") has a line that goes: "Last Tuesday they found you in the subway dead" but I believe Mr. Dwight is referring not to "subway" in the British sense, meaning underground walkway or passageway.
For LU fans, Roger Daltrey "took the Tube back out of town, back to the rolling pin" in "Who Are You", and Adrian Gurvitz and his band The Gun lament "These darkened Tube tunnels, carved by the hand of man, move a hundred thousand face going home from work again..." in their 1969 ballad "The Rat Race".
wayne
As I recall, Daltry's song describes a punch up over a seat on the Tube:
I staggered back to the Underground, and the breeze blew threw my hair[from the tube train approaching the station]
I remember throwing punches about and screaming for my chair
the line goes "punches around and preaching from my chair". Sounds like he had a few too many since the policeman woke him up from a Soho doorway earlier in the song's lyrics.
wayne
Oh yes, let's not forget The Chambers Brothers (who sound like they have the mighty echo of the Chambers Street BMT station behind them) - "I'm thinking about the subway; my love has flown away" from "Time Has Come Today", circa 1968
wayne
After reading this long thread I went out to Tower Records and bought the Kingston Trio CD so I could listen to Charlie of the MTA. I'm listening to it now. One question though, if his wife threw him his lunch every day at the Scully Sq Station why couldn't she just include his exit fare in his lunchbox?? I guess she didn't want him home. Another guy maybe??
The Kingston Trio did not record the original version, which was an election song for the Socialist Party candidate for mayor. The original final verse was:
Now you citizens of Boston
Don't you think it is a scandal
That the people have to pay and pay
Fight the fare increase
Vote for George O'Brian
And get Charlie off the MTA
O'Brian manged to loose to James Michael Curley despite the song's success. Curley did not have a campaign song to top O'Brian; he was serving a jail term at the time he was elected.
Nobody has answered this yet. How come Charley's wife didn't put a nickel in with Charley's lunch when she used to give it to him at the Scully Street Station??? Was she seeing another man??
She needed that nickel to get out of the station herself.
Mark
Scully Sq. never had exit fares. Exit fares were only used on the outer part of the system. They are still on the Redline the Braintree as well as the Mattapan line.
Then the question begs, why didn't Charlie just get off the train at Scully Square?
Mark
How come Charley's wife didn't put a nickel in with Charley's lunch when she used to give it to him at the Scully Street Station???
I'm not a Bostonian so I may be wrong ... but wasn't it SCOLLAY Square ???
Because then there would have been nothing to sing about.
Best answer yet, Todd!!
Because he would have gotten out at Scollay Square, gone into one of the numerous bars there or the Old Howard and never returned.
But according to the song he never returned anyway!!!
A few more...
-Kenny Vance & The Planotones, "Looking for an Echo" (We'd practice in the subway, in a lobby, or a hall)
-Donald Fagen's futuristic subway and rail imagery in "Snowbound" (We take the tube to Club Hi Ho), "Teahouse on the Tracks" (Take the T Line to Bleak & Divine), and "IGY" (On that train, all graphite and glitter/Undersea by rail/Ninety minutes from New York to Paris/Well by '76 we'll be A-OK)
-honorable mention to Chicago, "All Roads Lead to You" (Headed east on an Amtrak train)
No subway-related songs on this one, but The Persuasions released an album in 1988 recorded live in the Whispering Gallery at Grand Central
I can't remember the artist or title of the album, but the cover of a 1970s jazz release showed the artist spraypainting musical notes on a Fulton or Pitkin IND station
And, has anyone else heard of a skecth comedy album, ca. 1971, called And the Fare Keeps Going Up? The "Subway" routine is a man desperately trying to find directions to the RR so he can get to his Aunt Regina's on Ovington Avenue; there are also LIRR and Crosstown Bus sketches.
Found the muppet subway song (from sesame street) lyrics on some random website. I think I was about 4 when I first saw this skit. I forgot how funny it was....
We see a Hip Dude, dressed in sunglasses with a striped shirt and scarf around his neck, standing beside a sign that reads, "Uptown SUBWAY Downtown". An Old Lady comes running onto the scene, knocking into him.
Old Lady: Excuse Me.
Hip Dude: Watch it, lady!
Old Lady: Pardon me, sonny!
(music plays a little louder now as he sings to the camera)
Hip Dude: Down below the street
Can you dig the steady beat?
It's the subway
All: Subway!
Bert: Moving right along
Hear the rhythm loud and strong
It's the subway
All: Subway!
Man With Mustache: 'Cause there isn't any room in this town
Prairie Dawn: They put all the trains down under the ground
Cop: Buy a token now
For a ride that's super-wow
On the subway
All: Subway!
(scene changes to inside the subway train as they all cram in, Bert's hanging onto a strap)
All: (talking at once)
Bert: Uh, excuse me...
Lady in Fur: You should say you're sorry!
Bert: Hi, Kermit.
Man With Mustache: Squeeze inside the door
Little Boy: There's no room for any more
Both: On the subway
All: Subway!
Hip Dude: Hang onto the strap
Lady: Wonder where they hid the map?
Both: On the subway
All: Subway!
Prairie Dawn: If youre in a hurry take the express
Kermit: It will go right by your local address
Red-Haired Man With Mustache: Swaying to and fro
It's the only way to go
On the subway
All: Subway!
Ohhhhh..... (sounds like the sound a train makes when it passes by)
Kermit: My stop just went by
All: Ohhhhh...
Prairie Dawn: Hey, your thumbs in my eye
All: Ohhhhh....
Hip Dude: Its so hot, I could die
All: Anyway, everyway, anywhere
Bert: Packed inside a train
Its too crowded to complain
On the subway
All: Subway!
Old Woman: You could lose your purse
Or you might lose something worse
On the subway
All: Subway!
Hip guy: Its the biggest travel bargain in town
Yet Another Woman: The longest running show underground
Man With Mustache: Come on, slip inside
You'll get taken for a ride
On the subway
Kermit: Where's that?
All: On the subway!
(for some reason, some of them begin to dance with each other!)
Prairie Dawn: If youre in a hurry, take the express
Kermit: It will go right by your local address
All: Buy a token now
For a ride thats super-wow
On the subway!
On the subway!
On the subway!
On the subway!
On the subway!
Ohhhh.....
(the train stops and everyone piles out, except Bert and the Cop)
anybody remember "" DONT __________IN THE SUBWAY DARLING"" ???
who did that { her nam was """" clark } back in th 1960s .....right ???
Petula Clark, and the song came out in 1967 IIRC, on Warner Brothers records.
wayne
thats right !! ...........lol !!
No subway songs on it, but The Ramones' "Subterranean Jungle" album features a graffitti-besplattered "B" train of pre-GOH R32s (complete with Burnt Orange interior doors and honey beige interior paint).
wayne
>>> I'm trying to think of as many songs as I can that are either about subways or at least mention them. <<<
It is hard to believe this thread has gone this long without anyone mentioning Kris Kristofferson's evocative mood poetry contained in the song "Casey's Last Ride"
Casey joins the hollow sound of silent people walking down
The stairway to the subway in the shadows down below;
Following their footsteps through the neon-darkened corridors
Of silent desperation, never speakin' to a soul.
The poison air he's breathin' has the dirty smell of dying
'Cause it's never seen the sunshine and it's never felt the rain.
But Casey minds the arrows and ignores the fatal echoes
Of the clickin' of the turnstiles and the rattle of his chains.
"Oh!" she said, "Casey it's been so long since I've seen you!"
"Here" she said, "just a kiss to make a body smile!"
"See" she said, "I've put on new stockings just to please you!"
"Lord!" she said, "Casey can you only stay a while?"
Casey leaves the under-ground and stops inside the Golden Crown
For something wet to wipe away the chill that's on his bone.
Seeing his reflection in the lives of all the lonely men
Who reach for any thing they can to keep from goin' home.
Standin' in the corner Casey drinks his pint of bitter
Never glancing in the mirror at the people passing by
Then he stumbles as he's leaving and he wonders if the reason
Is the beer that's in his belly, or the tear that's in his eye.
"Oh!" she said, "I suppose you seldom think about me,
"Now" she said, "now that you've a fam'ly of your own";
"Still" she said, "it's so blessed good to feel your body!"
"Lord!" she said" "Casey it's a shame to be alone!"
Tom
And yes this is a subway related question.
LIRR bi-levels you mean?
Hopper Toilets?
Holding tanks for black water?
Screw that, when my NED train is +15 cause Amtrak can't get it's act together, I'm hoping that when I flush, whomever's dicking around under the car, "performing important safety inspections", get a nice blue and brown "surprise".
When I'm late, the sympathy gets turned off.
Man, it sucks that they don't have dump toilets on trains anymore. Could never understand why, too. A bear shits in the woods, nobody cares. What's wrong with people shitting on the tracks?
OK?
OK ... I'll venture a guess ... you can't flush when the green light's on at W4 St because if you do, then the pressure drops and the switches move and the next thing you know, the F train is on 8th Avenue. So did I win anything? :)
Inquiring mimes knead to no ya know ... what's da POOP?
I don't understand this...after having a union lecture about swabbing fecal matter on the wall of a single unit toilet at 239th yard...and TrainDude telling me that some would disagree that 239th yard tracks are no place to take a wizz. Does the W4 interlocking conflict with mascerator pumps?? Peter
Only time will tell ... I'm waiting on this answer myself. Heh. I just hope that's my leg he's pulling on. :)
I have no idea, that's why I asked. I am in there taking a wizz and I see "Don't flush when the green light is on". I ask around the TD's room, the tower get weird looks, no answers and then leave.
And here I thought you were playing with us ... dang!
OK, Train Dude, oh mighty answerer of dumbass questions - your mission, should you choose to accept it is to track down the answer to this most bemusing question of subway facility hydraulics and report back to us within 30 days. As always, if you or any other member of your IRT force are caught or captured, the rest of us get to rise one item number on the list. :)
Hey, TrainDude is on OUR SIDE!
That's why I'm thinking he can answer this mystery ... green to not go is kinda begging for an answer ...
If the green light is rarely on, Id say it relates to the pump's current condition. The amazing thing about subway bathrooms is that they tend to be lower than the nearby sewers. In some stations, therefore, crap has to flow uphill. If the pump to accomplish this is not working, you end up with a mess. Of course, only Transit would use a gren light as a warning NOt to do something.
Chances are if you really gotta go and you're not in a cab, there's something that would inspire many to HIT the red ... pity the TA lacks the creativity that used to inhabit the shops back in my days ... one of the signal maintainers would have rehabilitated an old IRT semaphore and hooked it up to the seat - lid up, proceed, lid down, wipe your shoes. :)
I'm choking at this....TA safety video about team working with SM sitting on board over third rail with two hands in signal box. Peter
Hopefully it was shot on a nice dry day in winter - having worked around 600, I have a better idea of reality and safety than most folks who weren't with the show ... and I know the dielectric in issued shoes are far better than street shoes ... STILL, I wouldn't do that.
What's funny is years after the TA, here was I with my hands inside television transmitter cabinets with interlocks disabled, with my hands on a beam tweaker on external cavity klystrons sitting there doing their thing at 50,000 volts and beaucoup amps and I thought nothing of it ... takes a particularly twisted soul to put their hands in something like that. Thus a piddly 600 volts DC is kinda a snoozer to me.
>and I know the dielectric in issued shoes are...
I think track or power may still get one pair a year but us, fuhgetaboutit. If I did pick yards they do make 600 boots but they don't look too comfie for road duty.
Nope ... the "clown shooz" ain't too comfy, but they do what they're supposed to do. And besides, there's nothing like the kiss at the end of a hot wet finger from a nice breaker panel on a nice drizzly April morning to say "howdy! You don't need a coffee to wake up today." :)
Steel dust + moisture + R9 = good morning!
I did meet 3 guys yard posting who were electricuted on older equipment.
And operating when there was a lick layer of condensation on the 600 panel behind me is scary.
Wimp...wear your absorbant cotton TA gloves for safety
I have been shocked twice on house current. The first time I was dazed all day the second I felt like lighting up a cigarette afterwards.
House current? One reason TA tech makes more money than salaried cops is inherent danger....don't stick pins into outlets unless you don't want to grow up. Years ago, i had my high voltage accidents and I'm a lot more wary today...especially of 'Bugs.' Peter
On the older toys, TA issued rubberized gloves. It largely worked but on a misty morning, you'd often get a good tingle if not a kiss. You learned quickly if you had to toss a switch, you did it with your paddle, not your hands. :)
So what train did you steal the paddle from?
Heh. Each one came with its own. Helped keep the door open in summer and was also available for customer service when required. :)
NOW we have to count the number of shoe paddles on R142s. CTAs steal em to pop the seats on Redbirds (like a yellow painted piece of wood is rally a good 600v shoe isolater.) New test for 142s...reed switch test. Reed switch in propulsion electronics sits encapsulated in a metal frame to detect current imbalance. Big reach in...just waiting for someone to do 'ohms test' with 600v on and drop something. Peter
If it's a reed switch, a bar magnet on a stick would let you know if someone's home or not ... what's with the reach? Oh yeah, the oldtimers who did that kinda thinking retired so the wigs determine the flow of electrons. :)
But if you're talking about a glass encapsulated magnet-sensing contact (reed switch) they're easy to test - all it needs is a small magnet on a switch and a continuity buzzer hung from the terminal strips to let you know you found it ... or didn't. Is this really nuclear brain science now?
It's a stupid test that requires you to go undercar, pop a panel and reach in deep with ur meter probes to see if the reed switch is shorted (stuck.) The error in the instructions is to use an ohmeter...if the switch is open (as it should be) there is 37.5 volts across it. Box is DC/AC inverter for traction motors. Peter
Yeah, ohms-eaters want to provide their own current - face of the scale turns brown if reference voltage exists elsewhere. If that's the case, I'd check with a 36 volt lamp in that situation - lamp comes on across it (once again with a stick) happy days ... than again, here I am falling for the subtalk experience ... "if I ran the railroad, why I'd ..." Still, there's easy and safe ways of testing things - last thing you wanna do is have someone put their hands into something that's powered if there's another way to get the result.
Too many years I s'pose dealing with REAL electrons, not those silly DC imitations. Homo electrons blowing fuses. :)
Dep Sup went after me while assembling one of those 'gimmick lights.' Worried about shorts...some guys try the 36 volt bulb on 130 and 600 volt circuits. Use the DMM they didn't give me to check things like this out...it's blow proof...lent it to a guy who went to his foreman complaining the circuit beeped...rocket scientist used diode/continuity mode. Hey, it's almost all fun every day and I look foward to going to work now. Peter
Ah well ... I know an employer I won't be going back to then. When I worked there, there was this guy at Coney who tested reassembled trucks in a unique way. He'd put a seat on top of the pin, sit himself down, grab a pole and touch the third rail with it on a lead to the motor. No kidding. Everyone in the shop knew he was nuts but he could tell just by the way it kicked if it was done right. And trucks he tested didn't come back.
They didn't show us that test at CI....what I really have to do is get some of those National Geographic Indian Railways videos.,,,and use a little imagination. Peter
Heh. Back then, the shops were full of old timers who had their own way of doing things and the attitude of the superintendents at the time was "if it works, don't screw with it" ... nowadays the mentality seems to be that only primates are hired and thus we have to develop one and only one day of shoveling sheet ... the creativity that once allowed the TA to build and rebuild their own cars has been kinda lost to outside contractors and inflexible work rules.
It certainly ain't your father's BMT anymore. :)
DE nu shooz are nicer
AH, but are they WINGTIPS? Methinks not. TA never had much style. :)
No, made in China with composite toes. And the cleats pick up all the dirty greasy gloppy gelled crap found in the pit.
Geez. Kwitcherwhining ... that's what the SANDBOX is for - shoe traction. :)
Wait...I need to get the glop out...my shoes stay in the locker because they stain everything....they didn't tell us in school that you must wash out your jeans two times! Peter
Most employees have learned to keep a case of depends in their locker. School car ain't what it used to be I guess. Maybe THAT'S what the green lights are for.
And I thought the green light was to let you know that the water table was low enough to flush
Amen TMC GPT-10K hf transmitter 13KV 2amps rack doors off with interlocks defeated and I wouldn't do anything stupid when the sucker is cooking a dummy load. Amen my brother de WB2SGT. So would I do something stupid with my new shoes??? Howbout Ivan Ivanovich squeezing between carbodies giving THE BIG BUG a whack...I stand paralyzed looking at it swinging between carbodies...one hit and 720 KW does a fast welding job. Safe in the hole, Peter.
Heh. Nothing like lighting up a water-cooled reject load with 360kW on a hilltop. 4CX5000's are nothing compared to what EEV klystrons eat. :)
QSL that....but a bad screen connection in a 4cx10K made for a real July 4th fireball!!! I miss that work so very much I'm in tears and that is why I'm so happy to have TA home twenty five years later.
Heh. NOTHING beats a cavity arc in a klystron. We're talking a light show that can be seen for miles around the top of the mountain. Followed by the contactors going BOOM! ratatatatatat ... heh. Nothing in the subways can light up the countryside like a cavity arc in a UHF TV transmitter.
No doubt a lot better than a 6L6 blowing a filament but when do I get to see the Big Bug slamming carbody??? Peter
Blue arcs are cool and all, but green, orange and purple trumps it every time. Life is meaningless until you've tripped a 1000 kW magnablaster ...
I'm not grown up yet
Hey my brother...see what we share??? I pass the Big Bug to you...got a light? Peter de WB2SGT extra.
Sure, I'll take your metal insect and pass ye a chicken stick for the screen resistors ... you spark'em down. I watch. I'll stand here by the breaker panel and hold the extinguisher.
We got live Halal chickens down the block and pigeons in the barn walking around. Peter
How much *more* service would be possible if there were more subway cars? And how many more cars are needed?
Well, currently I believe there is a small car shortage, but with the R-143 order coming in as suppliments and not replacements, this will make 212 R40-R40M-R42 class cars availble between the (L) and (M) lines.
I know a while back I had heard that those cars displaced by the R-143 class cars would be headed for the (B) (C) and (D) lines but I don't know if that has changed or not. It almost makes since becuase that makes R-32s available for the (E) (F) and (N) lines since the (V) is supposed to be R-46s and the (G) is supposed to be four car R-68 class cars. I guess we'll see when it all happens.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
R-42's on the B and D? R-32's on the F? I'll believe it when I see it!
I realize it's still early, but is there a projected date for the removal of the final R-40/R-42 from the L?
I guess whenever the R-143s are in full swing on the (L) you can expect the R40M-R40-R42 class cars to do thier movement thing!
Like I said in my previous post, the movement to the B, C, & D lines was told to me over a year ago, so as we all know the TA changes plans on a whim.
The Full Removal of the R40-R42 class cars are suppose to happen whenever this "Ghost" R-160/R-160A order comes into play.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
"R-42's on the B and D? R-32's on the F? I'll believe it when I see it!"
It was not far fetched. Up until about 9 months ago there was one plan to move R-42s to the D and the B and another plan to use R-42s solely for the B. The plan was fought by Division of Car Equipment management who did not want to give p the R-68s from the Concourse Fleet.
heheh...as long as they don't take the Slant R40's :)
They can't touch the F... it's had 46s for how long now? They should give the N 42s to add to its variety, but what could be taken away from the N? There's not enough 68s to make a fleet... If they need 46s, they can take from the R and put 32s on it. That can be taken from the N, so the 42s will fit... hm, I just answered my own question... yay
If there is a car shortage the T/A should obtain more cars just so that they'll have them when they're needed.
#3 West End Jeff
The cars are on the rails coming home from revenue tracks, coming down the rails from the manufacturer or already in the yards. The stortages come from trainsets pulled out of service....R142 series.
"If there is a car shortage the T/A should obtain more cars just so that they'll have them when they're needed."
Frankly, that was most of the most oversimplified statements I've ever read. First off, there is no "car shortage." As "Train Dude" has said several times (and I have, too), there are currently enough cars on hand to meet present service requirements. HOWEVER (as Steve Bauman and others maintain), there are not enough cars available to do very much in the way of service expansion, especially on the BMT-IND part of the system. The upcoming "V" train is going to stretch the BMT-IND fleet just about to its limits. This will be alleviated greatly when the R-143 fleet of 212 cars (the first trainset of which is currently in out-of-service testing) is up and running.
Secondly, buying more subway cars is much more involved than just walking over to the corner subway car store and saying "send me 250 of your finest subway cars." It's a long-term process. If the car shortage (assuming there were one) were caused by a maintenance problem, unless it were a deferred maintenance issue (like during the fiscal crisis of the 1970s), most likely the problem would be rectified long before new cars could arrive.
David
It can also be an involved process buying LRVs. The Denver papers keep pointing out that it takes roughly two years for Siemens to build a model SD-100 LRV, which is what we have here. And they won't lift a wrench until the order has been placed. RTD ordered a dozen cars last December because of packed trains on the Southwest Corridor, but we won't see them for another year. By and large, those Siemens LRVs have been very reliable so far. About the only thing that'll take one of those OOS is an accident. The ultimate kick is seeing a 3-car train with all three cars being part of the original 11-car order. They're easy to spot because of their opening side transoms. Later cars don't have them.
How much *more* service would be possible if there were more subway cars? And how many more cars are needed?
My guess is that peak service levels could be increased by 33% on most lines, if cars and their related infrastructure were available. Considering that they are running with only 17% spares, I'd also guess that roughly 33% or 2000 more cars would be required to achieve this level.
HEY: don't you guys read this stuff???? The new cars were ordered and have been received.....problem is that the Bombardier cars are being pulled out of service faster than they can be delivered. That's why all the flak is posted about Redbirds.fourfty years old and we keep em going. Peter
Peter, the real shortage (if one exists) will be in the B division where, as David has said, we'll be stretched to the limit. Depending on who you listen to, the potential shortfall is 8 trainsets. Of course this is not a shortage because when the V goes ito service, the deficit will be made up. It will be eased considerably when the R-143s come on line.
As for the R-142s, the performance has been less stellar than expected but they've got the 'key' managers getting it together.
I'm always learning.....I'm not senile from 'exposure' yet. Car desk pushes me to work and learn and work..I love it. What's going on with R142s is stupid: door interlock systems failures plague revenue service and 'key managers' make the best. R143s will fix 'letterworld' but numberworlds shortfalls with replacement cars make resurrection of Redbirds a must. Kawasaki might be the reliever...problem is our tax dollars have bought shoddy goods. Make me dirty, make me greasy, make black from head to toe...I love this work. Sups are just now discovering that i and my classmates have tech skills far beyond 'greasing.' I volunteered my skills as a comm tech for the WTC disasater....i know where I'm needed ....I serve when called......and just as my internet friend Fred met me on my first day....I was there for the last class from Coney Island PS248. TA called us..I have new friends and a new home. CI Peter
Are they used in America?
Visit: Bombardier's Website to find out.
They don't tell you who uses them.
Bom. makes busses. Don't worry about empty boxes. Peter
But I'm sure they tell you what rail co. they manufacture it for.
OEM means labels for anyone for a price. Boms. freightcars probably aren't falling apart. What NYC got stuck with is. Peter
Chips are down. Amtrak's been told to plan a liquidation/restructuring plan in order to become fully self-sufficient as it's become painfully obvious it won't meet the congressional deadline.
See the article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2760-2001Nov9.html.
Problem is, Amtrak's screwed both ways. As a semi-public corporation, the government can make Amtrak continue to run unprofitable Western routes -- then blame Amtrak for not turning a profit. Things are looking up right now for Amtrak, as more and more riders take rail in the post-9/11 fallout, but Congress really can't have it both ways.
C
We can't afford to undwerwrite unrpofitable Amtrak because we need that money to bailout unprofitable airlines.
(sarcasm)
Mark
LOL!
I agree completely. Congress is just passing billions of cash out left and right to airlines to compensate them for "increased security measures," whereas when Amtrak asks for help for the exact same reason they don't get shit. Un-freakin'-believable.
Chris
"Amtrak's been told to plan a liquidation/restructuring plan in order to become fully self-sufficient as it's become painfully obvious it won't meet the congressional deadline."
The thing is, both strongly anti-passenger-rail (Wendell friggin' Cox) and clearly pro-passenger-rail (Weyrich and Milwaukee mayor Norquist) members of the Reform Council voted for the measure. That's because the measure orders Amtrak to prepare a plan for liquidation or restructuring and submit it to Congress for its approval. The anti-railers hope Congress will vote to kill Amtrak, but the pro-railers hope this will force Congress to decide once and for all whether Amtrak is a public service, where incurring a loss is acceptable so long as the trains keep running, or a business that cannot run a loss. Presumably, they are counting on the post-September 11th occurrences to bring more members of Congress to the realization of Amtrak's necessity.
In other words, the Reform Council has placed Amtrak on its knees before the executioner and asked the arena crowd to vote thumbs up or thumbs down on a beheading. Some on the Council think this will prompt the crowd (Congress) to vote a full and final pardon, while others hope the ax falls.
Does anyone know the scoop? Is Amtrak a well run organization, or
does it have a lot of flab? Are there any self-sufficent or profit-
making large railway systems out there?
The only kind of large railway systems out in the MidWest and west are freight liners, such as Santa Fe and BNSF. CSX and CONRAIL I don't know if its nationwide (I saw CONRAIL and CSX railcars in Barstow Classification Yard.) I don't know of any major passenger rail system.
Of course there are others like the BART system in San Francisco and whatnot, but AMTRAK is the nation's largest provider of thruway and commuter rail services.
There's NJ TRANSIT which is the nation's third largest provider of rail, light-rail and bus routes, but that's about what I know.
AMTRAK has turned unfortunate milestones on what it has been going through. I really hope it shapes up.
Railfan Pete.
"Is Amtrak a well run organization, or does it have a lot of flab?"
That's not as easy a question to answer as it would seem at first.
Some would say that Amtrak runs a bare-bones system outside of the Northeast and those places where the states pony up much of the money (California, the Northwest, etc.), and that they've passed up lots of opportunities to grow and expand. Others would point out that Amtrak cannot expand because it has a severe shortage of cars, especially long-distance cars like sleepers and diners, and that the shortage is because Amtrak gets from the Treasury only $521 millions a year, which is about what the budget appropriates each year for snow and ice removal on the Interstate and federal highways.
Some would say Amtrak has a lot of late trains. Others would point out that on those commuter systems that successfully maintain a schedule while using a freight railroad's tracks, it's because there are juicy contract incentives for the freight company to keep the commuter trains moving -- and strong penalties for holding up commuter trains. Amtrak, perpetually shorted in its budget as stated above, doesn't have the money to pay a UP or NS sufficiently attractive on-time incentives to overcome the natural tendency to stick trains other than their own into sidings so their own hotshot intermodal freights can go around them.
Some consider the long-distance trains a waste of money and urge Amtrak to concentrate on frequent trains in high-population corridors. But others think that a more extensive network of long-distance trains (say, twice-daily service on maybe twice as many routes as exist today) would run less of a loss than what they deem expensive-to-run "subway frequencies" of service on the NEC.
It's hard to judge where Amtrak stands when even (some) people who consider themselves die-hard passenger rail supporters call for either the end of long-distance service or for severe cutbacks on the NEC. In my humble opinion, though, a balanced transportation system needs BOTH! City-dwelling travelers need fast frequent trains to link city center to city center. And rural-dwelling travelers need a conveyance that will stop at least once a day in their town even if it's too small to support a scheduled-service airport.
"Are there any self-sufficent or profit-making large railway systems out there?"
Freight railroads? Yes. Passenger railroads? Not that I've heard of. The excellent Japanese and European intercity passenger rail networks that are always held up as an exemplar of fast and efficient rail service are made possible by literally billions of dollars (local equivalent, of course) from their respective nation's treasury. Even the privatized British system receives (received?) several billion pounds a year from the Treasury for capital improvements.
Thank you for that quite comprehensive answer, John. I wonder if anyone on the site knows the answer to your question about the
Britis railway system.
I don't know about the financial straits of British Rail, but when I rode it some years back, I was impressed by the equipment and on-time service, both local and express. (I took a local train using Super Sprinter equipment in Yorkshire and the Edinburgh-to-London 'bullet' train.) They're doing something right, subsidy or no.
C
They're doing something right, subsidy or no.
Pretty much everyone I've talked to from Britain has disagreed with this. =) Personally, I found the rail service around London (the only part of the UK I've visited) to be very good, but maybe that just speaks to how bad passenger rail service is in the U.S.
Anyway, British Rail is long gone, having been split up and privatized. Railtrack, the private company that took over the infrastructure from British Rail, was recently (last month) taken over by the government rather than given further subsidies.
Wow, thanks for clearing the record on that. I rode British rail in 1995 and, as I noted in my earlier post, was quite impressed by the system. On another trip to Britain in 1998 I didn't ride the rails, so it's really been six years. how thing change . . .
C
Well recently UK railroads have turned to shitte with an absoltely appaling safety record (there has been one or more fatal accidents each year for the last four years, one incident left 35 dead.) The service is poor, the rolling stock is cheap and unsafe and the infrastructure has(d) been privitized so that nothing was ever done (to cut costs) and if a project WAS started it was ineffective (Railtrack not running the trains didn't have a clue what was needed). Railtrack just went bankrupt and I coudln't be more smug.
The Alaska RR runs both freight and passenger, on a single route. Their passenger ops are highly seasonal, depend greatly on the finicky tourist market. Although the pax unit as a whole operates at a bit of a loss, the RR iself is quite profitable, and this from a RR where automatic switch heaters and CTC is "new" technology.
Most freight railroads are highly profitable. Many tourist based lines are profitable or in the case of not-for-profitness, solvent. Your point?
As far as Iam concerned, Amtrak is a public utility, just as critical as power lines and public sewers. We need transportation options beyond just roadways and air travel, especially in the Northeast.
Having said that, there is no reason not to explore new operating models.
I would like to see Amtrak adjust pricing - reduce the price of an Acela ticket, and obtain funding to improve signalling and scheduling so that Acela can roll 150 mph through most of the Corridor, not just "here and there." Most of the physical means of providing a 2.5 hour schedule NYP-Wash WITH STOPS are at hand. Now let's make it happen.
What is liquidation?
WE'VE LOST OUR LEASE! EVERYTHING MUST GO!
It means they have to sell all their assests to pay their outstanding debts, I think.
Mark
They already did that. They have title to little of their rolling stock anymore, and not Penn Station for that matter.
Liquidation is the process of trying to make a company more "liquid" -- i.e., free up cash reserves rather than having it tied up in equipment or product development costs, for example. It's come to be synonymous with the sell-off of assets of a bankrupt company, but in this case it's being used to describe the not-quite-as-severe penultimate restructuring. Basically, Amtrak's last chance to reorganize and turn a profit, unless, as others on this board have pointed out, Congress decides it's a public service worthy of subsidy. So this is the high-noon showdown in Congress.
C
It's what happens when you stick your hand in a blender that's on.
Or, basically selling off all of a company's assets and closing shop
I knew from the very beginning that Amtrak was in trouble with Congress being so pro - airline. The main thing that's been keeping it afloat was the 9/11 attacks and the shell shock keeping people away from the airports. That, however, has a lot of Congress as scared as they were on the day of the attacks; you saw how the mill rolled to get people back to the airports with great desperation. I knew then and there that Amtrak is doomed in climates like these.
Which is really a shame, considering that Amtrak's Acela has proved to be a viable alternative to the air shuttles along the Northeast Corridor. Personally, I was skeptical that they could do it. I think if Amtrak lowered fares enough to become a truly competitive alternative to air in the Northeast and either restructured or spun off its Western/cross-country service, it could rebound.
C
My family and I took Amtrak down to Balto for Columbus Day weekend.
There was no security. No one even looked at our bags.
Couldn't afford Acela by the way!
That's bad. Grand Central Terminal is packed with National Guard troops, the MTA police sez they will search and/or confiscate unattented bags. Amtrak? That's a bigger problem. Terrorists might think to use railroads to thier advantage being airline security is heightened.
How would terrorists strike at Amtrak? Sabotage trackage in order to derail a train? (Granted, if they could fix the signals so that the block will still show clear they could pull it off, but even still it's a stretch; not enough collateral damage.) Blow up a train? (Most effective only if done in a terminal)
And on the airline security bit -- At this point it would not be tactically effective to attempt highjackings; but that doesn't mean they can't pay off pilots to down jets into city centers (the concern of which was raised by Mr. Denist of NewsChannel 4 a few days ago.)
Terrorists will most likely NOT hit Amtrak. Their trains are too lo-density and too short. How many people does a 9 car Amtrak train have compared to a 14 car LIRR train at rush hour? LIAR tickets are cheaper, you need no ID to get them and most stations are completely unattended. On NEC stations there are usually official people wandering about at least trying to keep a lookout for suspicious people.
They hit hit ACELA due to its high profile though.
Why would they look at your bags? A train isn't a big target for hijackings. Amtrak, Commuter RRs, and Subway systems can all be affected by terrorism through the same methods (bombings, etc) so why give any one more security than the rest.
Plus, you need an ID to purchase AMTRAK tickets. The protection there is that any Middle-easterners who attempt to buy a ticket will have their IDs scrutinized under microscope.
The protection would be greater if all trains were reserved, that way they would have a manifest of everyone on board every train should an incident occur. As it stands now, they know who bought tickets but not what trains they used them on.
Actually, if you check backissues of newspapers, you'll find that in many parts of the world, a bomb placed on a train coach is a frequently done thing in other parts of the world. May not quite be the mass murder level we've seen lately, but as a constant, it's been a pretty regular event. There is technology that can sniff out outgassing from explosives that would be pretty easy and relatively inexpensive to build into all portals to trains to minimize this risk. But it'd be foolish to discount the possibilities. It's been done elsewhere.
My understanding was that the old Hudson Terminal was completely demolished to build the WTC, but some recent postings on this board seem to suggest that parts of the terminal may still exist.
Can anybody provide me with a description of what might be left?
Thank you...
The whole thing should be left. Hudson terminal was under WTC 4/5 and is in one of the non-collasped parts.
They may have demolished the platforms and trackways but the ROOM ITSELF is still there and can be recreated, if need be. I think that's a marvelous idea, recreating the old Hudson Terminal, but if they do they better NOT put in any of them damn track sprayers! I want to "hear a symphony" * next time I set foot in the room. What acoustics! What glorious K-car harmonics! And the PA-1s weren't too bad either.
wayne
* PATH Symphony #7 in B-flat minor, Class K #1207 lead motor.
For a logical and well writted depiction of the survival of this terminal (pre 9/11 that is), check:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/hudterm.html
This seems to be the question of the hour these days.
Some tid-bits:
--The former (inbound?) Hudson Tube lead was partly converted to an access road into the loading dock, more or less beneath 4 & 5 WTC. The loading dock area WAS once Hudson Terminal. This was how the ScotiaBank gold was removed from beneath the site on November 1.
--The status of the opposite (outbound?) tube is unclear.
--Hudson Terminal is noticeably smaller in area than World Trade Center. The going assumption is "WTC" trains would have to be shortened (5 cars?) IF it could be restored.
--PATH was to have commenced an engineering study of this alternative. Does anyone know if it is indeed underway?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Does anybody remember how the "B" division car assignment was around the Manhattan Bridge reopening of the south side tracks in the Fall of 1990?
Y'know, you guys really should buy back issues of the BULLETIN...we've got it all!
B Division Car Assignment, October 1, 1990
A: 10 R-32, 130 R-38, 200 R-44
B: 190 slant R-40
C: 128 R-30, 32 R-32, 32 R-38
D: 80 R-68, 168 R-68A
E: 168 R-46
F: 360 R-46
G: 72 R-32
J/Z: 88 R-40M, 72 R-42
L: 16 R-30, 128 R-42
M: 16 R-30, 136 R-42
N: 70 R-32, 60 slant R-40, 128 R-68
Q: 144 R-68
R: 290 R-32, 48 R-46
Franklin Avenue Shuttle: 4 R-68
On October 17, 1990, the following changes were made:
D: 72 R-68, 176 R-68A
N: 70 R-32, 30 slant R-40, 152 R-68
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
P.S. To buy old issues, tell us which ones you want and send us $1.50 for each (checks are fine)!
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001 (yes, it's the closed Church Street Station, but we'll get it because the mail's being rerouted)
Does anyone here know?
Last I heard, ridership was DOWN about 10%.
MetroNorth ridership seems to be up. I would guess the Path ridership
is too, considering how difficult it is to drive in from NJ.
PATH ridership is down. People use mass transit to get to the Manhattan CBD. Part of that is now located in New Jersey and Connecticut, and part has disappeared. I expect ridership to track employment.
I think it is down on the midnights, with the exception of Halloween and the last week or so people have been staying home or so it seems.
MetroNorth ridership seems to be up.
So I've heard. Now, it had been my impression that LIRR ridership, at least on the Ronkonkoma and Montauk lines, had been down a bit. Middle seats sometimes were empty on formerly SRO trains, fewer people in the Penn Station cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half moons, that sort of stuff. In the last week or two, however, the trains seem busier, probably back to their pre-9/11 levels. Of course, this is just my impression, based only on rush-hour trains and only on two lines. I would be most interested in seeing actual statistics.
I heard the number of riders not riding was about equal to the number of displaced workers, so almost everyone who used the system pripr to 9/11 and still has a need for it is using it.
What I mean is, on the ... um ... "older" car types, there are scrollsigns and the new ones (R142(a), r143) have digital ones. The digital display on the R142(a) are in red. That's all fine and dandy for 7th Avenue trains, but what about the 6? It's red, not green. On the R44/46 there's the rollsign on the front and back so the color of the line's there, but on 142s and 143s, there's no front/back or side. Will the colors of the lines become uniform?
Color means crap. What is state of the art and is recognised as cheapest in liquid contrast displays (LCD) is what there will be. If you're color blind and see nothing, you're nuked. Peter
LCD stands for liquid crystal display.
They could have made the Red LEDs green by reversing the polarity of the current. A better idea would involve fiber-optics and a small computer containing images of the bullets that would get sent up a fiber optic cable to a flat "screen" at the top of the bulkhead. The end result would look like a small illuminated original R42 sign. Let's try this out on an R32 and see what happens!
wayne
Nonono....reverse polarity in LEDS means short circuit and not color change. LCD panels have either built in color or fixed color backlighting. No more fibre optics or computer crap/multiprocessors. If you can't read simple roll down ENGLISH displays.....get out of my subway. Peter
OK, then what the R32 cars need is a brighter lamp in the sign window so the flipdots are a bit more legible. I did remember hearing somewhere that current one way made it light red, another way made it light green. Forgot just where.
wayne
Cleaning out the Redbird and found a replacement for the 130 VDC bulb: a giant matrix of red LEDs mounted on an Edison base. I was so excited.........Peter
Would they ever be able to develop a digital display if it isn't available already that can display the color codes for all of the trains?
#3 West End Jeff
Color LCD modules have been around for a very long time (I carry a color LCD TV/monitor.) Big odd size multicolor LCD panels don't come cheap...expect to continue to see monochromatic displays in the color of their choice. Peter
If large LCD displays become inexpensive enough I guess it would be practical to use them for the signs in subway cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Wayne, a red/green LED has three connections instead of two; depending on which of two positives are energized you get either red or green.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nonono....reverse polarity in LEDS means short circuit and not color change.
Reversing the current to a diode just causes the current to be blocked. That's why it's called a semiconductor. And that's how a solid state rectifier works.
They could have made the Red LEDs green by reversing the polarity of the current.
You can't just make a red LED green by reversing the current. Color-changing LEDs are called bipolar LEDs and all red LEDs aren't bipolar.
Whenever you look down the track used by a 6 train and see a train coming, do you expect to see a 1, 2, 3 or 9 (or 12 or 13) instead?
Good point, and I guess that you'd know what train it is when it stops, but I was just wondering. I like the colors...
Not if you are color blind...another serious problem for LCD panels in public.
yes! one day I waited while 8 consecutive r142s trains passed me at 77th street and Lexington before finally giving up altogether and going upstairs to catch a bus.
no sarcasm was injured in the making of this post
I guess the TA wasted a lot of money over the years on color
printing, eh?
Maps need colors for clarity. That doesn't mean that the TA should have to waste resources in getting color digital signs. Only tourists identify lines by color.
What about signs on the platforms, station entrances and mezzanine
areas, service advisory brochures, etc.? I'm not arguing for
a color-coded system, in fact I'd be very happy if all color was
dispensed with and we went back to monochrome signs just so I don't
have to hear tourists, and sometimes seasoned NY riders, talk about
the "yellow line", etc. BUT, be consistent. Either we are going
to have color-coded signage or we aren't. If the decision is no
color, then stop wasting money printing other things in color, and
admit that we wasted millions over the years colorizing. {the
imperative is directed at the MTA, not AmericanPig}
I've never found either LCD or Flipdot displays to be as effective as good low tech roller-blinds especially when they malfunction. It seems to me that the use of colour coding for the various different subway lines is extremely useful to the travelling public and its a great shame that this regime now seems under threat. What could be more visually effective than a large brightly backlit coloured number or letter on the front of a train? Common sense should prevail!
What could be more visually effective than a large brightly backlit coloured number or letter on the front of a train?
How does a digital sign anything other than "a large brightly backlit coloured number or letter on the front of a train?"
Colors are unneccessary with numbers or letters already being used to identify lines.
Common sense should prevail!
It did. Money was not spent on multicolor displays that would be of dubious necessity.
I disagree. Let me give an example. If i rush onto a platform say at 59th St and i want to head towards say 168th St using the 8th Ave line I don't care if its an A or a C train, just so long as i don't jump on a B or D - the blue sign tells me the way to go. Say I'm on another part of the system i don't know that well, the colour scheme is even more useful. Non regular travellers using the subway map naturally associate colours to lines. If i dont know that the C train plies the 'blue' 8th ave line then I may miss it while if consult map. Not everone using the subway is a regular. Perhaps in my own situation I'm used to dealing with colour coded lines as i use the London Underground regularly.
Actually, you probably want an A or D, since they both run express. If it turns out you got on a D, you can change at 125th or 145th.
Your example works better southbound. If you want 6th Avenue, the B and D go to exactly the same place; if you want 8th Avenue, it really doesn't make a difference unless you're going to 50th Street.
Multicoloured (benefits Undergrounders) LCD panels cost really BIG bucks, period. TA chose monochromatic with colors that I believe even the color blind can see (the message of course.) Besides, any replacements of roll signs means more TA stuff you SubTalkers might fight over to obtain! Peter
HERE HERE!!!
I have to agree entirely - - - they spend thousands of dollars for digitized displays, when a simple roller would function with far more trouble free operation.
I'm just back from a round-trip, BOS to NYP on the Acela Express. 6am south, 5pm north.
Every seat taken, each way, all trip. I overhead many on board saying that they had switched from flying after 9-11, and liked the train so much they'll stick with it.
I guess the new commercial is working :-)
I thought it was great
Hey Todd! Get WTOP here in Washington to play those ads, and do it on the eight.
Phil Hom
Part news junkie, part time transit fan
WCBS
WINS
WTOP
WGN
WBBM
KCBS
That would be great. WTOP is so unhelpful when it comes to transit, except for Steve Eldrigde's occasional sprawl and crawl reports.
Yesterday morning, Lisa Baden (how does she come up with that humor at 6:30 AM???) says "Metro's red line is experiencing 10 minute delays between Silver Spring and Fort Totten." In the next report, it is "Red line has 10 minute delays between Silver Spring and Fort Totten and 20 minute delays between Metro Center and Shady Grove." In the report after that, its "Red line experiencing delays."
I had to call Metro as I got near my station since it takes 20 minutes for me to walk from home to the station. By then it was all clear and I got my normal operator. The other announcements from other trains were being done by their normal operators, too. The only difference was that the large number of Rohr cars normally running when I am there wasn't out.
The most unusual all news station I have ever heard is WDMB, 102.1 FM in Monticello, NY. It mainly does AP National News, since there isn't much local news to report. Local news is done from 6 AM until about 8 PM about once every half hour. Weather is done occasionally but outside of the local news times, its all prerecorded and can be quite inaccurate.
Interesting. Note that Washington DC Traffic and Weather hardly never provide transit updates in the PM. Lisa B does and outstand job of letting the DC world there are other options: Metrorail, MARC and VRE. The PM rush never report rail delays unless, as WTOP states, "it is reported to us".
How are other all-news stations in other cities doing in report rail transit delays? I rather have "ON-TIME" on the 8th than to hear nothing at all. It reporting transit situation standard for the all news CBS family, or is it up to the radio station's manager?
Phil Hom
KYW 1060 in Philly ("traffic and transit on the 2's") reports transit delays (SEPTA, PATCO, Amtrak) if any, or states "no reported transit delays" at the end of the traffic report every 10 minutes.
At least they say something about transit. That's what I want to hear.
I e-mailed Vice President of News and Programming Jim Farley about the issue. He wrote back and said despite constant requests, Metro hardly ever reports anything outside rush hours and even then, they don't say too much. I still think they could at least say "No reported delays" because then, if Metro doesn't report it, it isn't WTOP's fault. Also, they could ask listeners to call #1500 from the subway if there were delays.
Phil, It's not under my control! The ads are managed by AMTRAK's ad agency.
BTW, T&WT is live this Monday AM from NYC :-)
Good to hear, Todd. I know AMTRAK has been going through some tough times recently, going through liquidation and such, but revenues from the Acela Express have helped.
But I read later on that the AE was also not doing enough as ridership steadily declined.
I've always wanted to be on an AE or an AMTRAK train en route. The only time I've ever been in one was the train displayed in the Hoboken Festival. The first AMTRAK train I have ever stepped into in my life. It gave me a good impression of the train.
Last year AMTRAK contributed to the USPS "Celebrate the Century", a locomotive and an AMTRAK car completely painted yellow with stamps, and a little museum inside how the history of mail delivering was presented.
Well, since the Sept. 11 attacks, people have been sticking more to trains than planes. Sometimes, some people are just not in the mood to fly so they take bullet trains and such instead. I wish there was something I could do to help.
Railfan Pete.
The TTC officially received the last new T1 subway car unit (5370-5371) from Bombardier at a ceremony inside the Davisville Carhouse today, at 10 o'clock this morning. Speeches by some TTC and Bombardier officials were made, a ribbon was cut, cake and coffee was served and guests were allowed to inspect the unit's interior. The cars were being powerd from a jumper cable lowered from a sliding contact that fits into a slotted track akin to that used for track lighting.
Bombardier's representatives presented TTC officials and guests at the ceremony with medals commemorating the event; whoever designed the medal included the H1-4 eyebrows around the destination sign and marker lights of the T1 in the picture so the likeness looks more like an interesting hybrid design.
As an added treat for some of us, there was also a Gloucster unit (G2 unit that tows one of the rail grinding units) parked inside the carhouse for some work as well, in addition to the two newest subway cars on the property.
-Robert King
I'm up to date and deal with Bom. everyday. Whatssis T1 and Davisville? Peter de IRT #'s 2 & 5.
New subway cars for TTC in Toronto. The last of 372 which have been arriving since 1996 as I recall. Built in Thunder Bay, not La Pocatiere and certainly NOT in Plattsburgh.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
isn't the TTC getting ready to order new cars besides the T1? its supposed to be apart of their major overhaul capital plan. the H3 is on its way out. maybe the next car will be the T2. and of course bombardier will build it because the Canadians are patriotic.
The T-1 order had three parts, to replace a variety of cars.
#1=216 cars (5000-5215) to replace M-1 (1962) and H-1 (1966).
#2=156 cars (5216-5371) to replace H-2 (1971) and H-4 (1974).
#3=(Proposed) to replace H-5 (1978). Funding for this portion was denied.
As it turned out, subway ridership showed sufficient increase to justify the rehab and retention of 30 or so H-4s. I believe 20 cars were also added to #2 to provide for the Sheppard Subway.
In coming years, TTC will no doubt place further subway car orders, perhaps sooner if the Province restores enough funding to transit infrastructure in general. This would probably result in a new "tender" (acquisition process) that would become a "T-2".
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
They seem to go though cars there awful fast - 27 year-old cars to the scrappers.
They wanted to use economies of scale to get the price per car down rather than have several more expensive orders for subway cars over a much longer period of time. This way, the TTC also saved the cost of a mid life rebuild on many subway cars as well. Personally, I understand the logic behind it but I also disagree with the premature - in some cases very premature - replacement of perfectly good (but in need of a spruce-up) Hawker-Siddeley cars.
-Robert King
How much trouble would it be to regauge them and send them to NYC ?
Not too hard. Press the wheels on the required distance closer together and move the pneumatic brake equipment to account for the new position of the wheels. That's about it in terms of reguaging, but there probably are some other minor modifications to be made like changing the position/side of truck the train mounted trip arm hand reaches down from. And the mode switch in the cab would have to be turned from Std or L. P. to H. P. so that they operate in high performance mode (not Gloucster compatibile low performance mode).
-Robert King
To answer your other question, Davisville is one of the train yards of the Toronto subway. TTC headquaters is located there, too. You can see it for yourself on this very site, on the page called Toronto: Subway Photo Gallery.
Mark
Thanx. Got ahold of a Bom. tech today and he never heard of it. Are these 12 or 16 door suckers and DO THEY WORK? R142s should be good 'new tech' cars but booiii do they keep us busy. Peter
I'm not too surprised. These tech people you'd be dealing with would be operating out of the Plattsburgh plant, working in New York and only dealing with 142s - wrong factory, city and subway car. I didn't speak to any of the Bombardier people at the T1 event but I suspect they wouldn't be able to tell me much, if anything, about the 142 and New York operations since they're operating out of Thunder Bay, working in Toronto and dealing with T1s (I probably should be using the past tense now that the last of the T1s have arrived but the last few units are still undergoing acceptance testing as of yesterday).
The T1 is a 75 foot 16 door car in a married pair A (even number car) - B (odd number car) unit configuration. The T1 works very well. Other than one isolated incident where the doors opened 'spontaneously' (Apparantly the investigation turned up dry) they haven't had any problems with them. From what I understand, T1 maintainance comprises of routine inspections, replacing brake pads when needed and changing light bulbs as they burn out. No adventures like the ones the H6s sent everybody on which required keeping the old rolling stock running in service while all the debugging was going on.
-Robert King
Thanx. Sad to say that TA (us taxpayers) spent a lot of money on R142 'new tech' and Bom. with its vendors has to spend a lot of time ironing out the bugs that don't come from the 24/7 operations. I wonder how many brake shoe changouts occur on the T1......you know when you change out six or eight shoes on one R142 that something is wrong.....especially if the shoe worn down to the metal is not on the parking brake. Peter
I know that the the brake shoe replacements on the T1s do take place more often than on the other 75 foot cars because the T1s are the heaviest yet of the 75 foot cars, but I don't know how often the shoes are changed on any of the subway cars.
-Robert King
I checked today with the car desk and TA is counting brake shoe replacements by computer soooooo.........there will probably me more brake mods and/or software revisions. It's all in a days fun. Peter
Let me just throw this out there...
Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that the conveyance of people is possible by any mode, rail, air or highway, without public money. No matter how you cook the books, taxpayers pay something every single time we venture forth from our homes.
I believe it is possible to be both pro-passenger rail and pro-airline. It does not have to be one or the other. What the U.S.A. needs is a comprehensive transportation policy and funding for an integrated rail-air-highway system which makes the best use of all three modes. The problem with the current funding is that passenger rail does not receive its fair share. We would all be better off, transporation-wise, if Congress and all of the various transportation interests would step back and look at the system as a whole. It is possible to be for a "bailout" of the airlines in these troubled times, and yet also be for increased funding for passenger rail. Why should one mode suffer at the expense of the other? There is a bigger picture.
Though not perfect in their efforts, European countries do a better job at distributing their tranportation needs among all modes of conveyance. The advantage they enjoy is that their culture does not preclude government sponsorship of public works in the same way ours does. I suspect this has much to do with the fact that European cultures have had to live in relatively more crowded conditions for centuries, while Americans have the luxury of having conquered for themselves a much larger continent in which to distance themselves from crowds and the necessity to move large numbers of people at once. Is it any wonder why our friends living in the Wide Open Spaces are reluctant to fund anything having to do with moving large groups of people through, among or away from the dense coastal metropoli, with their omnipresent governments, they have been trying to escape for over 400 years? (Is it an accident that one of the most vocal "anti" rail voices in Congress is from a state known mostly -- at least until having garnered its first professional sports title last week -- for its vast desert?)
The problem is that that the transportation money is distributed unevenly, depending upon who has the most influence over those who decide where to allocate the cash. There are not enough creative people in our government who can see a bigger picture -- one that lasts beyond their terms -- to effect any lasting improvement in the gridlock that all of us experience daily whether we are driving or riding.
>>> What the U.S.A. needs is a comprehensive transportation policy and funding for an integrated rail-air-highway system which makes the best use of all three modes <<<
That is true. The problem is that as long as our society holds to the mantra that private ownership and competition is the best model for everything there will be no comprehensive transportation system. The specter of a nationalized transportation company operating airplanes, trains and buses, similar to the post office is not a pleasant thought for many people, who feel a bureaucracy divorced from any need to turn a profit would provide poor service at much too high a cost.
>>> European countries do a better job at distributing their transportation needs among all modes of conveyance. <<<
There are a couple of reasons for the greater use of public transportation, and particularly rail in Europe. First the distances are much shorter, and second, automobile ownership and travel is considered more of a luxury with extremely high taxes on fuel than in the U.S. This has been true since the invention of the automobile. Thanks to Henry Ford and the highway lobby, the love affair between Americans and their cars is too far along for a government that is dependant on votes to seriously coerce Americans out of their vehicles with significantly higher ($1-$2.00 per gallon) taxes to be used to subsidize public transportation.
Tom
Thanks to Henry Ford and the highway lobby, the love affair between Americans and their cars is too far along for a government that is dependant on votes to seriously coerce Americans out of their vehicles with significantly higher ($1-$2.00 per gallon) taxes to be used to subsidize public transportation.
Taxes aside, if (or, more accurately, when) Saudi Arabia falls to Taliban-style extremists, our gasoline prices will shoot up, up, up. Saudi Arabia controls 25% of the world's crude oil reserves. Taking that off the market, or drastically cutting its production, will wreak havoc with oil prices.
And yet liberals and "environmentalists" in the USA continue to block efforts to drill in ANWR and off-shore or anywhere else. Even if the House of Saud falls, whoever or whatever takes over is going to need oil revenue. What else do they have to offer the world economy, sand? If they jack up the price of oil that only encourages more oil exploration outside of the increasingly volatile mid-east region. If they stop pumping it out of the ground, the same thing happens - more exploration.
ANWR ain't going to happen ... except temporarily. There is an ABUNDANT supply of oil in Khazakstan (sp?) which curiously is on the other side of Afghanistan. If Afghanistan falls to a "friendly" government, it'd be the shortest amount of pipeline through Pakistan to the water and beats the Saudi stash by a mile. Just a matter of where to run the pipe and the Afghanistan/Pakistan route would be the shortest to connect it to the ocean.
ANWR ain't going to happen ... except temporarily. There is an ABUNDANT supply of oil in Khazakstan (sp?) which curiously is on the other side of Afghanistan. If Afghanistan falls to a "friendly" government, it'd be the shortest amount of pipeline through Pakistan to the water and beats the Saudi stash by a mile. Just a matter of
where to run the pipe and the Afghanistan/Pakistan route would be the shortest to connect it to the ocean.
There's also a huge amount of oil in Azerbaijan*, on the western shore of the Caspian Sea. Several oil companies have proposed building a pipeline from the oil fields to a Turkish port on the Mediterranean. But the good old U.S. Congress has so far thrown a monkey wrench into the plans, I'm not sure exactly how they're doing that, but they are doing so. Why? Well, it turns out that Azerbaijan and Armenia don't see eye to eye, and the Armenian-Americans are a powerful enough lobby to get Congress to block anything that might help Azerbaijan.
So basically, you've got Armenians blocking the Azerbaijan pipeline and the tree-huggers** blocking drilling in the ANWR. Of course, there's another issue too. Hardly anyone is addressing the fact that oil is a diminishing resource, regardless of any new finds, and we really should be looking into alternatives such as transit, HSR, and new vehicle fuel sources.
* = The capital of Azerbaijan, Baku, was the scene some years back of the world's worst transit accident.
** = I admit that the use of the term "tree huggers" is a bit inaccurate with respect to the ANWR, as there aren't any trees there. But you know what I mean.
Heh. Those zany republicans ... same guys who are stiffing New York after we took a punch in the face for America, same guys who have their own military police to guard them while we have to settle for rent-a-cops. Hypocrites all, no surprise. Do as we SAY, not as we DO.
Isn't Baku one of those 'Soviet places' where the leaking pools of oil poison everything and everyone?? What amazes me in this 'new tech age' is how much electrical power it takes to move the subways especially the cost involved when cars are EMPTY. As always, 'Big Bug for Bin Loden' (720 KWdc 600 volts.) Peter
WHat happened in Baku?
WHat happened in Baku?
A fire, IIRC on a train between stations.
The following:
http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/34_folder/34_articles/34_metro.html
is a link to an account of the disaster in Baku, which left 300 people dead.
-- Tim
(Couldn't figure out how to enter this as a working link; none of my attempts looked good when I previewed.)
"The specter of a nationalized transportation company operating airplanes, trains and buses, similar to the post office is not a pleasant thought for many people, who feel a bureaucracy divorced from any need to turn a profit would provide poor service at much too high a cost."
A national transportation POLICY does not require a single government-owned transportation OPERATOR. Government already effectively controls air, highway, and marine/riverine transport by making investments in the underlying infrastructure (right-of way, if you wish) upon which private operators actually provide freight and passenger conveyances. Some progressive -- or traffic-bound -- states are starting to do the same with freight rail, making investments in particular right-of-way improvements that are then integrated into the networks of the existing freight railroads. None of these involve government OPERATION of transport.
Given that the government is already involved as either financier or operator in ALL transportation modes, what is needed is a comprehensive, planned-out, policy to COORDINATE in a rational manner the transportation decisions that government already makes. Each mode has its proper function in the total transportation system and government funidng should reflect this essential truth, whether the mode is operated by the national government (Amtrak) state and local governments (commuter rail and transit systems) or private enterprise (air, intercity bus, and truck lines; barges and cargo ships).
It is mildly heartening that some states (California and Virginia leap to mind) are willing to construct or finance infrastructure to expand the capacity of FREIGHT railroads, on the theory that they already pay for the highways but prudent capacity-expanding rail projects can move more additional freight for the same tax dollars than adding more highway lanes. TEA-21, and ISTEA before it, are also SOMEWHAT positive signs of something vaguely approaching a true transport policy, albeit incomplete as they do not include all transport modes.
(No matter how you cook the books, taxpayers pay something every single time we venture forth from our homes.)
Generally the ROW. If the federal government simply funded the maintenance and operation of AMTRAK's rail ROWs, as it does with roads, passenger rail service would be profitable IN THE PLACES IT MAKES SENSE. You'd have competing rail carriers on the Northeast Corridor lines, just as you have competing airlines.
Generally the ROW. If the federal government simply funded the maintenance and operation of AMTRAK's rail ROWs, as it does with roads, passenger rail service would be profitable IN THE PLACES IT MAKES SENSE. You'd have competing rail carriers on the Northeast Corridor lines, just as you have competing airlines.
But Amtrak actually owns, or even controls, very little of its own right-of-way. Some is state operated, but most is in the hands of private freight railroads.
This leads to the political hot potato of government subsidizing private industry.
FWIW, My belief is the answer lies in tax incentives for private railroads to entice them to "want" to run passenger trains.
As for the "unified" European approach (land, sea, air under one subsidized banner) check the biz news and you'll note the Euro air carriers are on shaky ground right now, like Amtrak in reverse. This seems to stem from the shorter geographic distances most travelers require. That does not apply over here.
For the above reason, I'm afraid this country will NEVER be able to reduce its use of automobiles and their attendant issues, regardless of gas prices, taxes or anything else. Everyone's votes have the same weight in this democracy, but 75% of the population in the US is concentrated in several nodes covering just 25% of the nation's land mass.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Everyone's votes have the same weight in this democracy,
They don't.
One state = 2 votes in the Senate, regardless of population.
BTW, which candidate received the most votes in the last presidential election.
How soon they forget. :-)
. . . but seats in the House are allocated in proportion to states' populations.
C
They tried infrastructure seperation in the UK. Service turned to shit and the company lost billions. The person who runs the trains needs to be able to modify or correct what the trains run on as needed.
While air travel is useful in time critical transcontinental trips (dying relative, etc), IMHO the transport mix is currently way out of balance. Pricing in the sector encourages air usage when rail would be far less environmentally destructive. Proposals to fill in part of SanFrancisco Bay to accomodate more flights are predicated on increasing shuttles to LAX which should be abolished as soon as HSR can be instituted.
I hear the MTA cancelled a plan to extend the Hudson Line north of Poughkeepsie, some people had "strong objections" to the plan. I bet the opposition was influenced by some closed-minded community group opposed to need for better commuter operations. How far is it supposed to go? I think the line should reach somewhere in Columbia County or maybe near Albany at far north, but that's it. I guess the Harlem Line to Wassaic is good, the MTA is supposed to extend that as well. What I'd like to see is something being done with the West-of-Hudson operations. New Bombardier coaches, station rehabilitation, extensions in Rocklnd/Orange/Ulster counties, SOMEthing.
I hear the MTA cancelled a plan to extend the Hudson Line north of Poughkeepsie, some people had "strong objections" to the plan. I bet the opposition was influenced by some closed-minded community group opposed to need for better commuter operations. How far is it supposed to go? I think the line should reach somewhere in Columbia County or maybe near Albany at far north, but that's it. I guess the Harlem Line to Wassaic is good, the MTA is supposed to extend that as well. What I'd like to see is something being done with the West-of-Hudson operations. New Bombardier coaches, station rehabilitation, extensions in Rocklnd/Orange/Ulster counties, SOMEthing.
I don't believe that Metro North had any serious plans to extend the Hudson line north of Poughkeepsie. Talk, maybe, but nothing that reached any further stage.
I believe there have been some station and parking improvements on the west of Hudson line.
I seem to remember them toying with the idea, asked local community leaders and got a resounding no! as a response, and dropped it. They wanted limited service to go as far as Rhinecliff-Kingston (or maybe Hudson) rush hours only (sort of like SEPTA to Newark, DE).
The bad influence excuse doesn't apply in this case; who would be stupid enough to try anything in Dutchess County or points north? I could understand if the locals didn't want significant portions of their county budgets going towards funding a 2+ hour commute to NYC.
The West - of - Hudson plan is contingent on whether the Tappan Zee Bridge is rehabed/rebuilt, and even then the idea of tying the Pasack Valley and Port Jervis lines in with the NH is a stretch; won't that overburden an already crowded line and needlessly prolong the commute for those riders?
That whole "expansion north of Poughkeepsie" thing was an attempt to expand the MTA taxation zone to several counties north of Dutchess. I attended a couple of meetings in Rensselaer to find out if we could expect the same number of trains that Poughkeepsie got and when we found out that there would be NO expansion of trains, that this was a pure cash grab, we sent them packing. But it was your typical political game of three card monty ... "keep your eye on the train, where's the train, where's the train."
We may be upstaters, but we ain't rubes. :)
I attended a couple of meetings in Rensselaer to find out if we could expect the same number of trains that Poughkeepsie got and when we found out that there would be NO expansion of trains, that this was a pure cash grab, we sent them packing.
I read all your posts on this topic. The MTA tax issue may have been important up Albany/Rensselaer way, but around the area that would have had new stations -- Rhinecliff -- the issues were different.
Rhinecliff is just far enough away from NYC that it's not now commutable by car. It can be done via the Taconic, but it's not particularly fun or safe driving, and doing it daily is a strech. (I'm sure there people who do.)
The opposition in Rhinecliff and nearby was based on pretty much liking the community the way it was. The fear was that opening up regular Metro North service (hourly, even at rush) would bring NYC commuters, increased traffic, massive riverfront parking, and soon condo and/or McMansion developments on farmland.
Basic argument: We've got Amtrak, we've got a nice little town, we don't want to change it. NIMBY-ism, perhaps, but with a certain regional planning sensibility to it. Does it make SENSE to enable NYC commuting from 70-80 miles away? This is sprawl by any other name.
Why not increase density further down where Metro North (or other RRs) already serve? A la NJ Transit "transit village" programs with towns to increase zoning density within walking distance of NJT stations.
To a couple of other issues: It's electric from GCT to Croton-Harmon, then diesel from there to POK. And they've built a multi-story parking deck at the north end of POK station, soon to open. (Sadly, built across a freight spur to the adjacent empty brick warehouse building, but ... price of progress, I suppose.) It's actually pretty nicely designed (brick facing, red tile roofs) to match the station.
I can understand part of that argument, but another part doesn't wash. New Haven is over 70 miles from NYC, and people make the commute. People who live in the RhineCliff area commute already, and the alternative to no Metro-North service may be to increase the development of industry and residential subdivisions on farmland.
The result is this: Metro-North service can help limit sprawl, but no Metro North service may lead to even greater sprawl, because people are moving in anyway. The mansions occur despite commuter rail service, not because of it.
Metro-North service can help limit sprawl, but no Metro North service may lead to even greater sprawl, because people are moving in anyway. The mansions occur despite commuter rail service, not because of it.
Got to disagree with you there, Ron. Increased commuting from Rhinecliff area over past 20 years has two causes: Increase in real estate costs closer in, and vastly improved RR service as Metro North was rebuilt. There's been almost no change in roadways nearby.
That said, Rhinecliff has reached an equilibrium. Relatively few people move there expecting to commute 5x/week to NYC. If Metro North began hourly service at half the price of Amtrak, it WOULD be more practical to move there and commute 5x/week. Condos and McMansions follow. And that's what Rhinecliffies don't want.
Wowsers ... Nimby's that far north? I know the folks further North in Hudson wouldn't mind some MTA screwage but then again, Rheincliff has been kinda the "Tuxedo Park" of the Hudson Valley so I can't say I'm surprised. This far north though, it's strictly an issue of cost/benefit when it was discussed a couple of years ago. Columbia county though does seem to want to pay tribute to MTA and there seems to be a pretty good number of folks there who do commute to the city on Hamtrak. Of course, the trains leave Rensselaer already packed to the gills for the rush hour runs.
I think much of that was just talk. Still, I'd love to be able to take the commuter train to Albany . . . beats a three hour drive on I-87. Don't think it'll ever happen, though.
C
Ummm ... Amtrak runs to "Rensselaer" which is right across the river from Smallbany ... time is typically 2:30 or so barring delays. And with the first stop being Poughkeepsie, it's a fast ride. THAT is the reason why we don't want MTA going our way - we'd be making every whistle stop to Fordham Road ...
Yes, you'll note I said the 'commuter' train -- much less expensive than Amtrak. It's cheaper to fly to Albany than take Amtrak . . . I can get under-$60 roundtrip fares from both BWI and Providence on Southwest, so why would I even bother? What I liked was the notion of a $20 MNR fare between NYC and Albany -- great for daytrips or a detour on the way to Albany.
C
True, but you'd be hardpressed to convince folks this far north that paying an MTA tax is the way to go. Down near Hudson, NY probably 25% of the residents commute via Amtrak to the city - up here, maybe 5%. Many don't and many have NEVER gone to the city.
I don't get down there often either - maybe once every five years or so and I GLADLY pay for the Amtrak run - ever SEE the Albany airport? Heh. Only regret is that years ago, I used to travel to and fro via Amtrak in the cab with my buddies. Not allowed anymore. Nothing beats a cab ride, but back in the geese cars ain't so bad either. You don't have to play "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" like on Pine Hill Trailwaste ...
LOL! I agree with you that this seems to be an MTA ploy to grab more tax revenue, and I think it probably won't happen. Still, one can dream . . .
Not sure what you mean about the Albany airport. I've flown in and out of it a couple times a year for the last several years and see no cause for complaint. The terminal is clean and new, it's convenient to the Northway, and there's plenty of parking.
Agreed, that a cab ride beats sitting in the coach! Hopefully in a year or two these crazy security restrictions will be slackened a bit so that old pleasures like that can once again be enjoyed.
C
Granted the new one is nicer than the old joke we used to have, but let's face it, the Albany airport still screams "PODUNK!" Heh. And what flies in and out can best be described as "Trans Dogpatch Airlines" ... I use the train or the family truckster. But the MTA ain't gonna sell their card game up north. There just isn't the demand for commuter rail to NYC out of these parts. A trip to NYC from here is a tossup between NYC and the Rat Trap down in Orlando and given the weather, it's Orlando for most.
Amtrak's just fine by us up here and if that does go away, then ain't much need to go south. It'll definitely affect folks that go to the city for theatre or the peep shows. :)
Isn't there a commuter line operating from Albany to points south to about Poughkeepsie? I remember seeing some second generation RDC cars being used for that line back in the 1980's. Is this line still running?
Yes indeed ... the RDC's you remember ran on the unelectrified portion between Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie in MTA country. It's been a long long time since I rode from Po'town to NYC but I think they electrified it since between CN and PO and they're running MTA issue on it now. Poughkeepsie is the end of MN country - the only thing that runs north of there is AMTRAK. Service between Rensselaer/Albany (Amtrak designation RENSSALA) and NYC is significantly higher than that which goes north/west of Albany but there's a train each way about every two hours, more for NYC's rush. You'd be AMAZED at how many people commute daily from up here to NYC.
If I'm not mistaken, the "Hudson corridor service" is Amtrak's THIRD busiest line. But yeah, we gots choochoos up here. :)
Thanks for the information. I do not get the reason for the opposition to MTA suburban rail service north of Poughkeepsie. Its not like there will be a wider ROW up there, just a means to get cars off the highways. What next?
The opposition is twofold and it actually makes a bit of sense. Upstate, you don't get the NIMBY thing as much as "if you're going to extract money from me, what do I get for it?" ... the MTA keeps coming up short on this one ... There is an MTA tax. Don't remember if it's 1.5% or 3% of wages, but it's serious bucks. We don't PAY an MTA tax north of Poughkeepsie since we don't get ANYTHING from the MTA. Instead, we pay outrageous fares to Amtrak if we wanna go city.
What MTA has offered is NO increase in service, but they want to collect the full taxes out of us as though there was a train every half hour. Now if there WAS a train every half hour, no problem but this far north, not all that many people go to the city. It ain't like Croton North. So the problem is we'd have no more service and only a small number of people would use the train to go to NYC and we'd ALL get taxed for something we largely wouldn't use.
THAT'S the rub here, it ain't a NIMBY thing ... it's pure price vs. value ...
Now I get it. Thanks for the eye opener. Seems like the political types are always looking for ways to get your money for nothing.
And then after they've GOT your money, they want to hand it to IBM and GE and Forbes. I'm sorry, I grew up in a city where everybody had a sidewalk act and I've seen them all. When the politicos come along, I know how to say, "move along, Johnny" ... heh.
You know why they want to hand it off to IBM, GE, and Forbes? That is where their friends are - not us little folk. Remember that old remark "the public be damned" ?
Heh. We live with the outcome every day. I'm still trying to figure out how to spend my $12.00 tax cut. :)
What MTA Income tax are you talking about? I've never heard of such a thing. I know that 0.25% of sales tax goes to the MTA, but I've not heard of anything else.
-- Kirk
That might be it ... I know it's also buried in your phone and cable bill as well. Can't say I know much about it - we don't have the MTA tax up here but it sure got the locals in an uproar when it was proposed and me, being bored out of my teat sometimes, tend to go and sit in a courtroom or "public hearings" so I went and took it in - this was a couple of years ago. But I sincerely don't know the specifics on it. I'm pretty sure there's other components to it - we New Yawkers know how the state loves to grab a little bit of this, a little bit of that - political banquet funding. :)
MTA adds taxes to your phone bill, if you live in the city atleast. I don't know about cable TV as well. The MTA tax isn't always itemized if I recall correctly. However, every few months, I think it's every 3 months they send a more detailed version of the bill showing all the taxes. I remember seeing this one time when they were still Bell Atlantic, and I don't know if Verizon or time has changed anything. I also remember seeing something to the effect that there's some law that says they don't have to itemize all the taxes and charges on the bill. I'm not to sure about that one though.
Shawn.
The MTA tax on "utilities" extends throughout the MTA "zone" so folks outside the city pay it too. And as to the hiding of taxes on the bills, yep - that's the law. Those who pull their vigorish on every possible avenue sure don't want folks knowing what they're paying and where. And yes, it IS included in cable bills but cable companies aggregate that into "state taxes" on the line items as prescribed by the NYPSC ...
Mind ya, I'm not one of these foaming right wingers who objects to taxes, I *do* object to paying taxes when services are not delivered as would be the case if the MTA came to Albany with no trains and no fare cuts from Amtrak rates. Those of us upstate already pay a significant tax to the state to support the "Empire Corridor" service which we DO receive with NYC subsidies of Amtrak for the service that we DO have ... ya don't mind paying for actual service.
... to support the "Empire Corridor" service which we DO receive with NYC subsidies ...
Meant to say NYS subsidies instead of NYC ... and as to MTA and NYC transit, there are other taxes that ALL state taxpayers pay into the funds for MTA in addition to the MTA tax itself - none of us mind paying this at all since that "transit pool" also sends us back pennies to spend on municipal bus systems where they exist. But just like NYS whines about sending X amount of bucks to Deecee and receiving back $X-30%, it's the same for us upstate as well. We don't mind though.
There is also a corporate-level MTA tax surcharge for companies doing business in the MTA area, defined as NYC, Long Island, westchester, and Orange County. The surcharge is 17% of NYS taxes that arise from activities in the MTA area.
subfan
oops - I meant Westchester and Rockland, not Westchester and Orange.
subfan
Isn't it also Putnam, Dutchess, and Orange? Metro-North does serve these counties.
:-) Andrew
The answer is YES ... if I'm not mistaken (probably am) Ulster county also got sucked into that tax based on busses that go to the Poughkeepsie train station even though there's no trains in Ulster itself.
The answer is YES ... if I'm not mistaken (probably am) Ulster county also got sucked into that tax based on busses that go to the Poughkeepsie train station even though there's no trains in Ulster itself.
I'd be very surprised if this were the case. I live part-time in Ulster and only buses I'm aware of have gone to Rhinecliff Amtrak. Highland, across the river from POK, isn't in Ulster County if I recall.
Yeah, Highland is right at the Mid Hudson bridge which drops you off in Po'town. I lived in New Paltz off Rte 299 and there was a bus from New Paltz via Highland across the bridge to Poughkeepsie. You're thinking perhaps further north at Kingston which might have had another bus that went to Rhinecliff ... but I don't know about the tax since at the time, it wasn't in effect in New Paltz. I headed further north in 1985 and lived in Rosendale for a while before heading north.
But I recall hearing that the MTA tax had come to Ulster (or was going to) a long time ago. Wasn't something I paid all that much attention to though so I don't know for sure what happened ...
You are correct - I just pulled the instructions for the form (CT-3M/4M), and the MCTD (Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District) does, in fact, include the fair counties of Dutchess, Orange, and Putnam. Sorry about that - I hope the NYS Office of Professions doesn't try to pull my CPA for giving False and Misleading advice! :-)
subfan
Yep ... now that you mention it, that was one of the BIG magillas up here over MTA coming north ...
Electrified to Poughkeepsie? No. From the gade crossing in Croton the third rail ENDS. This is why all Poughkeepsie bound trains use DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES .
Wasn't certain of that since it's been a long time since I've ridden MTA stock. I used to live in New Paltz and would get to the city when I needed to out of Po'town and that was always a ride on the "bus" (paired RDC's) down to Croton. Since then, I've blown past Po'town on Hamtrak and have seen MTA coaches and assumed they might be electrics but couldn't really tell. No surprise that Croton's still as far as the power goes ... only furthers the argument that taking on the MTA tax don't buy you dick. :)
After all these years, one would think they would have run electrons through Montrose and environs - hell, Injun Point is right there.
You guys notice the US flag on any of the subway cars in our fleet? Usually below the number plate, many cars have been "flagged" with Old Glory as they travel from one end of the city. Notice how the redbirds getting scrapped/reefed have the flag on them. Federal law prohibits "printing or affixing the flag on anything that will be discarded."
The only 'birds getting those flags are the R-33s, AFAIK. That's becasue the rest of the R-142 fleet is stuck up in Plattsburgh either being assembled or getting repairs from the build problems they had early this year. Judging from the seriousness of those problems, Car Equipment, I believe, is expecting those 'birds to hang around for quite a while.
Except for the singles on the Flushing line, the R33's look to be in the best condition out of all of the Redbird classes. So they'll probably be the last to go. They have the least amount of corrosion and peeling paint, especially cars that number in the 9000's and 9100's.
I've had a discussion with some Marine buddies who do color guard and are fully up on "da rules" ... those "stickers" are not actually "flags" but "images of the flag" and that makes it different. "Images of the flag" for example do not have to be taken down at dusk and put back up in the morning unless LIT at night, and can be as tattered as anyone wants without having to take a torch to the car to destroy them properly. There is a distinction though and those rules only apply to a cloth flag or a plastic one flown from a pole ...
>>> those "stickers" are not actually "flags" but "images of the flag" and that makes it different. <<<
George Orwell take note of the interesting distinction between the flag and an "image of the flag." It sounds to me like reinterpreting the flag code to make it conform to current practice. The flag code does not just apply to flags on poles. It also controls the display of a flag against a flat surface such as a wall. The idea that there are different rules for a flag which is made of cloth and placed against a flat wall or behind a window, and a flag on a plastic material with adhesive on it to be placed on a flat wall or behind a window is not logical and intellectually dishonest.
If "images of the flag" are not covered by the flag code there would be nothing wrong with silk screening images onto an appropriate sized piece of cloth and then using that cloth as a dust rag. Why doesn't that sound right to me?
Tom
Mine is not to explain the "logic" ... but that's what I got told since my expectations were the same as yours. Orwell was ahead of his time, and Winston Smith is retiring with a fat check. :)
There is nothing, Constitutionally, inherently wrong with using the flag as a dustrag.
I would not use it that way, because it sends a message opposite to my beliefs about, and my pride in, my country. But it is a form of protected speech (even if offensive to many, including me).
There's a lot of flag burners, who have got too much freedom, I want to make it legal for policemen, to beat 'em. 'cause there's limits to our liberties, at least I hope and pray that there are, 'cause those liberal freaks go too far.
>>> There's a lot of flag burners, who have got too much freedom, I want to make it legal for policemen, to beat 'em. 'cause there's limits to our liberties, <<<
An interesting thought. Not only taking away the freedom to dissent, since flag burning is usually a demonstration of disagreement with U.S. government policies, but also giving the police summary power to decide who should be punished without any trial. I am glad I do not live in the type of country you prefer.
Tom
Don't worry, it's not my opinion, it's one of those campy 70s throwbacks that appeals to Generation Xers.
We need another VietNam, thin out their ranks a little.
Remember Police Inspector Gwen Kow Key popping a suspected VC with a .38 in the head??? I'd rather to see suspected terrorists walking the plank off an C-130 over the Atlantic. The sad part is that such thoughts violate the origins of our fathers Constitution.
Burning the flag is symbolic of a desire to destroy the country for which it stands. Advocating the violent overthrow of the country should be a punishable offense. Or at least the cops could look the other way when the righteous indignation of patriotic civilians points out to these protestors the errors of their ways.
In other words, someone who burns a picture of my mother in public is asking for it. The same for anyone who does the same to my country.
One of the ways our country stands out from others is that govt. authorities do not "look the other way." Your proposed responses to flag burners, if systematically applied, would put the US in the same category, governmentally, as Balkan countries, or the Taliban.
Protected speech can be quite obnoxious and disgusting. But, you see, if the Constitution protected only non-offensive speech (as in "Cheesecakes should include 4 packages of cream cheese to every half cup of heavy cream and should not have a blueberry topping!") or speech no one gets emotional about, then what good is having a Constitution?
Ah, but the Constitution does protect only politically correct speech, especially in the workplace. You may make a comment that is meant in a perfectly innocent context but if it is perceived by a casual listener as racially insensitive or sexually insensitive, you can lose your job or worse. How does that constitute free speech?
The Constitution protects people from the government, not from employers. You agree to abide by your employer's rules of politically correct speech as a condition of employment.
I'd agree with you but when the employer and employee disagree, it usually end up in court. The courts almost always are guided by the Title VII principle that it is the perception of the recipient and not the intent of the speaker that counts.
>>> There is nothing, Constitutionally, inherently wrong with using the flag as a dustrag. <<<
I agree with your statement that there is nothing constitutionally wrong with using the flag as a dust rag. I won't go along with your idea that there is nothing inherently wrong with using the flag as a dust rag.
The Flag Code was first proposed by the National Flag Conference in 1923. It did not become federal law until the Congress passed it into law in December, 1942. It is now Title 36, Chapter 10 of the United States Code. This law provides no penalties for violations of the code. There were criminal penalties for desecration of the flag in other federal and state laws, but the U.S. Supreme Court has struck them down as an unconstitutional abridgement of the right of free speech since 1990.
There is currently a drive among those who think the flag itself is more important than the freedoms it represents to pass a constitutional amendment to prevent flag burning and other desecrations which would bring back the criminal penalties.
Although I personally do not support criminal penalties for improper display or handling of the American flag, I do not believe that placing flag decals in the windows of subways and buses, or flying tiny flags from automobile antennas is an appropriate respectful display of the flag. I have no doubt that within six months many of the flag decals will be much the worse for the wear. I hope (but doubt) the TA will promptly remove the decals which become damaged or defaced.
Tom
Thank you for providing the details regarding the non-enforcement of the federal statute.
What is the difference between pasting a flag on a sheet of glass, and sewing a flag patch on clothing (eg police uniform, space suit, battle dress uniform etc.)? As a practical matter, over time the flag decal will become dirty, and start to peel off; but clothing can become dirty and threadbare too.
>>> What is the difference between pasting a flag on a sheet of glass, and sewing a flag patch on clothing (eg police uniform, space suit, battle dress uniform etc.)? <<<
Traditionally, flags should not be incorporated in clothing or worn as patches on clothing but flag patches on military, police and firefighter uniforms are permitted by the Flag code. Flag patches on military battle uniforms started in WW II for practical reasons. During the North African invasion it was hoped that defending French soldiers would not fire on Americans, and it was thought to be important to identify the Americans as such. Flight crews who might have to bail out over occupied territory, and paratroopers participating in the D-Day invasion in 1944 wore the flag patches for the same reason.
Flag patches went on astronauts space suits as a public relations / propaganda thing, so that the flag would be seen in world wide television programs and all those seeing the pictures would know they were Americans, not Russians in space.
Flag patches started showing up on police uniforms in the 60s as an imitation of the patches on military and astronaut uniforms, and in a good part as a statement that the police (as opposed to anti war and civil rights demonstrators) were true patriots. There is no good reason for police to wear the patches except possibly in border areas, but it is difficult to argue against showing the flag and mom and apple pie without seeming unpatriotic and therefore the practice became widespread by default. Firemen decided they were just as patriotic as police and also started wearing flag patches.
I personally think it cheapens the flag to make it a patch on police and firefighter uniforms, and there is no good reason for it to be there within the United States.
Tom
Thank you for the historical perspective. Very interesting.
Your view is consistent and well-put-together. Even if I don't entirely agree with it, I can see the logic. The conclusion I reach is that, in your view, the flag belongs free flying on a pole (theough the pole can be on a piece of ground, a mast on a ship or vehicle etc.). I certainly respect that.
Another thing I like about the logic: If police and firefighters wear it as a symbol of patriotism, why can't anyone else do so (either we all get to do it, or we don't)? So maybe it's better if nobody does it.
I have a US flag lapel pin which I sometimes wear (I've had it long before Sept 11). What is your opinion on ceramic or metal US flag lapel pins?
>>> The conclusion I reach is that, in your view, the flag belongs free flying on a pole <<<
That is not exactly correct. I am a product of my upbringing, and fifty years ago, the Flag Code was strictly observed. It permits hanging a flag against a wall without a pole but delineates where and when the American flag should be displayed. The main thrust of the Flag Code is that the flag should always be treated with respect, and it should not be an everyday decoration plastered on every available surface. As a boy scout, and later as a soldier, I was taught to salute every passing flag while in uniform, or stand at attention with my hand over my heart if not in uniform. That's hard to do with flags on every passing transit bus and subway train pulling into a station.
>>> What is your opinion on ceramic or metal US flag lapel pins? <<<
Traditionally, U.S. Flag lapel pins were worn only by U. S. military veterans attending patriotic observances such as Memorial Day or Independence Day ceremonies to identify them as veterans. This of course goes back to the day when people dressed up in suits for these kind of things. The pin was always worn on the left lapel, closest to the heart. It was worn above any other lapel pin, such as a regimental pin or Rotary pin, but should not be worn as a decoration on a T-shirt, a hat, or with other pins of various types.
BTW, the U.S. Flag Code was out of step with most European democracies such as England and France who have long allowed their flags to be used as articles of clothing and in commercial advertisements.
Tom
I have a copy on my shelf somewhere of the rules for displaying the US flag - I believe it is a US Navy pamphlet. Next time I run across it I'll give it another look.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with any respectful display of our flag, be it on clothing or on a vehicle. I'm sure that several US airlines have or had the american flag displayed somewhere on their aircraft. LIRR had a flag with the slogan "We serve withpride" for many years. Personally, I like the fact that NJT has put the American Flag on its fleet and I'm happy the TA has done likewise albiet a bit too large, I think. I do object to it being worn as a head covering or as a hood cover on a car. Recently I've seen stars & stripes used to cover auto headrests, and as drapes along the Grand Concourse. Clearly there have been perversions in the use of our national symbol but none done deliberately out of disrespect. Patriotism is patriotism, no matter how you choose to display it.
>>> Personally, I see nothing wrong with any respectful display of our flag, be it on clothing or on a vehicle. <<<
I guess I am just a little more conservative than you are on this point. I do not see a respectful way to wear a flag on clothing. It is subject to becoming sweat stained, and is also subject to being dirtied through contact with all sorts of substances.
As far as the proliferation of flags on vehicles is concerned, I see it as the cheapest form of patriotism, and feel that old saying that "familiarity breeds contempt" is somewhat applicable. If flags are everywhere, they become part of the everyday background, rather than the object of respect that they should be. "Flag waving" has long been a term for superficial patriotism with good reason.
Tom
To this extent I agree with you. The shoulders of the Long Island Expressway and other Long Island parkways are littered with lost American flags. It is decidedly not patriotic to leave them lay there but unsafe to try to retrieve.
As for clothing, I wear a TA jacket that has a flag patch on the right shoulder and the NY State emblem on the left. The TA has made such jackets available since the early 90s, long before it was fashionable.
There is currently a drive among those who think the flag itself is more important than the freedoms it represents to pass a constitutional amendment to prevent flag burning and other desecrations which would bring back the criminal penalties.
Why can't you just make a law against flag burning? Because that law would be unconstitutional, but if you change the constitution... We can make all sorts of crazy laws!
Now you're catching on!
Currently I feel that the flag is being somewhat over used. The flag should be a symbol that triggers some sort of feeling and plastering it everywhere sort of makes it passee. Frankly I think that a Redbird is more a symbol of American pride and any flag decal that happenes to be on one.
Personally I feel that most flags today are insults to themselves. Usually cheap mass produced, nylon pieces of shit that are made in HONG KONG, TAIWAN or CHINA! Can you belive that! CHINA! I go to my 4th of july parade and the mini flag I got says "Made in China". My eyes just about rolled out of my head. My family flag only has 48 stars, but it is hand sown linnen that stood in a public school for god knows how many years. That's something I can respect.
Re: the flag descration issue I feel that any attempt to limit free extression is a greater insult to the flag than using it as a dust rag or kindling.
I burn flags every so often. It is the official way you are suposted to retire old or worn flags (ie throwing them away in the trash is a big no no). Many people seem to forget this.
Yes,but there is a procedure you must follow. I participated in a ceremony like that at summer camp when I was a kid. I played "Taps" on a bugle as the flag was burning, and everyone stood at attention.
I have participated in those myself. Unfortunately, at home I don't have a bugle or any other of the required kit.
Too bad you are still trusted alone with matches.
NJT is flying the US flag, at least on the Atlantic City line. I rode the line on Oct 30 and got some photos in the Atlantic City station.
cab control cars 5138 and 5144
cab of GP40PH-2# 4209
coach
The photos can be enlarged using the pull-down menu.
The Green Line in Boston has the flags affixed on the fron/back of each car, including the Boeings...but that makes sense cuz I haven't heard anything about the type 8s returning to service anytime soon. -Nick
I taught my buddy how to put those flags on straight with windex...the R142s get the flag in the shop...Canucks wont put up a mapleleaf (I wonder why.) Peter
It may be policy for public agencies, but there is no such law affecting private citizens.
Is it just me, or are the flags on NYC buses backwards?
Nappy
It's not patriotism, it's a stop gap measure to increase the structural integrity of some of the subway cars. :)
Mike, it's nice to see your still doing the dog paddle around the shallow end of the gene-pool.
The Redbirds are so rusted, one load-bearing poster won't be enough to keep them together.
:) adj Also known as, a smiley face. This internet "emoticon" is used to indicate that the previous statement was intended as a joke or was sarcastic. Synonym:
actually, DC does that all the time on the cab ends of the trains...on Spet. 10 and before...
I have been working recently on an ambitious subway expansion plan I have been toying with for about 3 years, but I just began to seriously work out and write out the details a few months ago. I had actually drawn potential routes in NYC and other metropolitan area atlases. Suffice it say, all five boroughs are covered with routes as well as areas of Long Island, New Jersey and Westchester County, and all letters are used, as well as additional ones and more numbers were added. If anyone's curious about what I have devised in terms of new routing, names of lines and route markers, leave your responses/questions and I'll answer them as throroughly as I can.
I'd like to take a look at your plan. Please either post it here, or email it to me at danilm@juno.com.
Thanks,
Dan
Me too
Serberus2001@aol.com
yeah...me too...i was also working on a couple of expansions...jeffcao1@juno.com
Count me in.
nfi857@aol.com
"all letters are used, as well as additional ones"
Did you create some new letters, like Dr. Seuss, or borrow from other alphabets?
No, I didn't create new letters, but I did use letters from the Spanish alphabet like "ch", "rr", etc. and I did incorporate all the letters from the Greek alphabet.
Are you serious?!! Gotta see this plan.
I'm very serious. Foreign letters are used because the whole new system is so comrehensive that it entails so many different routings. And of course I chosen foreign letters that aren't hard to pronounce.
Good idea. I like your plan of perhaps it seems of extending the IRT lines into Westchester County. You can E-mail me at jeffalterman@yahoo.com
#3 West End Jeff
I too would like to see your plans for the expansion of the
subway into the surrounding areas.
Send me your email address--you can post it on the board, or you can ask me a specific question by posting it on the board, or you can email me with questions at dlamond27@yahoo.com. I'll be happy to share my transit plan with you.
i would be interested in seeing your plan as well, my email is MJtricarico@aol.com
michael
I would like to view as well... email it to me durham@bellsouth.net
Frank D
I'd like to see whatever you have as well. My e-mail is: rednoise@mindspring.com
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Sure.
My e-mail address is Scruffy308@yahoo.com.
And, it better not be a virus...
I'm very interested in viewing your subway expansion plan. You can e-mail me at niarenique@yahoo.com.
Please send me a copy; you can reach me at p_dimaria@hotmail.com
Thank you.
Like you all know I've been toying around with a 2 avenue line.And the city has been talking about giving Staten Island to NJ.And It has come to me that because of the financial lost New York is facing that the 2 avenue line might not be built(or the ground breaking might be delayed) so I am making alternate plans just in case one of these happens.Which includes:
-A Lirr connection with SI and the Bay Ridge branch.
-A partial 2 Avenue line with the W and for local and express service(If available in 2004).
-A New Jersy connection with SI.
-A connection with Cityhall(N,R) and St George.
These haven't been completely thought through and pending on what happens in the next 6-12 months will tell if which one goes into action.
I don't follow your logic. So if there's no money, let's build something more expensive and useless instead?
Arti
Because I didn't think these plans through yet there is no pending price yet(And most of these projects are cheaper then the estimated $40 billion it will cost to build my project).
Due to the lack of tourists using the system in the wake of 9/11, Metro is considering either service cuts or a fare increase. Rush hour ridership is still the same as before but midday ridership is down 6% and weekend ridership is down by 9%. Late night ridership is still the same.
More from the Washington Post here.
A rather unique driving range is here in the DC area. Several years ago, the area to the east of the White Flint Metro station was unused. A group persuaded Metro to allow them to lease the land so they could set up a driving range and miniature golf course. Yesterday, I was able to practice my golf swing while hearing the trains stop and go behind me. In addition, you can hear the CSX/MARC trains in the distance. From certain tees, you can see the trains, from others, you can only hear them. Its the perfect driving range for the railfan.
The mini golf course there is fun too!! Its actually a very difficult course.
I believe that the golf park is going to be turned into retail eventually though, if I'm not mistaken. Its a shame how they are overdeveloping Rockville Pike
I've played it and it is quite challenging.
I thought the area west of the Pike was going to be developed. I didn't know the golf park was part of that too.
Bring your clubs and take the 4 to Woodlawn on your next trip to NYC. The first tee at Mosholu Park Golf Course is just about underneath the el just south of Woodlawn station. The whole course is a uniquely NYC golf experience.
CG
Well due to the anthrax coming up negative in the hospital and at the home of a woman who died of Anthrax, the search has come now to the Subways, it seems the 6 line (which she road daily) will be tested for anthrax. Also it seems subway cars on the 6 line will be checked too.
It has been reported that there has been random testing in the subways for many weeks now. However, it would seem that leaving no stone unturned in the unvestigation is the way to go. If my count is correct, the total lost to Anthrax is 4 nationwide with few if any new cases reported recently. First wave over? I hope so.
ANTHRAX! Pooh on all this; what's the death toll, FOUR!!! How many people died from smoking-related illnesses in the last FIFTEEN MINUTES? More than four I bet. And I don't see anyone out there trying to snuff out tobacco smoke.
AFAIC Anthrax, while a potential killer, the risk is way overblown.
AND Anthrax remains one of my favorite HR/HM bands of all time, and they're from right here in BROOKLYN NOO YAWK! Caughtinamosh!
wayne
Wasn't there a test done on the "A" (IND) line in 1967 where people who wore thick eyeglasses tossed lightbulbs from between the cars onto the tracks and the lightbulbs themselves were filled with an undisclosed substance. This test was apparently performed to see if the subways would be a safe place in case of an anthrax attack. It was concluded after the test that the subways weren't safe from an anthrax attack. BTW the substance that was inside those lightbulbs hasn't been disclosed to this day.
#3 West End Jeff
I read something about that. I heard that the substance was a dormant substance in the same catagory as anthrax but it is harmful. I forgot where I read it, but it was a pretty good read.
>>> This test was apparently performed to see if the subways would be a safe place in case of an anthrax attack. It was concluded after the test that the subways weren't safe from an anthrax attack. BTW the substance that was inside those lightbulbs hasn't been disclosed to this day. <<<
The test you are referring to was conducted by the U.S. Army in 1966 to test the effectiveness of spreading biological agents. It was not to see if the subway would be safe, but to see how effective the method was (they were thinking about Moscow at the time). They used a benign but detectable set of "germs" developed for this purpose dropped at a few Manhattan stations. They returned to the subway system a few days later and determined that the "germs" had indeed been spread throughout the subway system in Manhattan by the movement of air from the trains. The experiment was secret at the time, but has now been well documented in several publications which include a description of the biological agent used. The exact results of how many germs were detected and where remain classified.
Tom
In New York, military researchers in 1966 spread Bacillus subtilis variant Niger, also believed to be harmless, in the subway system by dropping lightbulbs filled with the bacteria onto tracks in stations in midtown Manhattan. The bacteria were carried for miles throughout the subway system, leading Army officials to conclude in a January 1968 report: "Similar covert attacks with a pathogenic [disease-causing] agent during peak traffic periods could be expected to expose large numbers of people to infection and subsequent illness or death."
Oct 22 Wall Street Journal
[AND Anthrax remains one of my favorite HR/HM bands of all time, and they're from right here in BROOKLYN NOO YAWK! ]
Someplace I read that they were considering a name change after....
Arti
Might be a tough sell, especially for the hardcore fans who might not recognize the new handle. They're going to be playing at a Nov 28 benefit at the Hammerstein Ballroom, with a couple other local HR/HM acts (Twisted Sister, Ace Frehley's band and Overkill). I won't be going but I would be interested to find out how they were received.
wayne
You may be interested to know that last year, in spite of the Subway
Series, over half of my sales of Subway Tees were to Japan! They
are responding to the shirts as something integral to New York City,
which they love. So they are definately responding to the Subways
as a cultural thing. Of course, they get it because they have their
own Underground as well. But they bought before the rest of this
country caught on (a process I am still trying to make happen)
If any of you have contacts at other rail museums or publications who
might be interested in my products, please let me know!
Subway grrl
The Japaneese buy anything American except Cars and Rice
Japs buy Harleys cuz 'riceburners' don't have class. Japs don't buy American farmers rice because they prefer to remain yellow and emaciated. Upon this Veterans Day, remember the sailors of the USS Indianapolis and their sacrifices to put an end to the World War of the Pacific. I serve when called.....TA called and i have a new home.....a special snap of the bolt on my M1 Garand in rememberance. Peter
I have 2 questions about the Malbone Street wreck.
1.Whas Anthony Lewis(the train operator)aquited?
2.Why did the city change the name from Malbone Street to Empire Blvd?
And something completely off topic
From the wheels to the roof,how tall is a R46 and R62?
1. Yes
2. Yes
Question 1 - As the BMTman can tell you, his hero was indeed acquitted, but his name was Anthony Luciano. In order to prevent any attacks on Italian-Americans at the time (similar what has happened to some Muslims and Shieks recently) some newspapers changed the name of the operator to Anthony Lewis.
If you check another part of this site, you can get as Paul Harvey says "the rest of the story".
Question 2 - NYC changed the name of the street to Empire Boulevard to try and erase the memory of this tragedy. Also the street is quite wide (IIRC it has two lanes in each direction plus curbside parking and may have a turn lane), so Empire Boulevard is quite appropriate but I think would have better applied to Eastern Parkway. Anyway there is still a small one block long street with residential houses that still carries the name MALBONE STREET.
Question 1 - As the BMTman can tell you, his hero was indeed acquitted, but his name was Anthony Luciano. In order to prevent any attacks on Italian-Americans at the time (similar what has happened to some Muslims and Shieks recently) some newspapers changed the name of the operator to Anthony Lewis.
Like many foreign-born people and children of recent immigrants, Mr. Luciano used anglicized versions of his name. For a discussion of Brian Cudahy's book, whichincludes a brief rundown of variations of Antonio Luciano's name, see this book review.
I've seen no indication whatever that newspapers altered his name for any reason other than confusion. Any comparison to current feelings regarding foreign names is especially inappropriate. Italy was one of the Allies in World War I. It was anti-German sentiment that was in vogue at the time of the Malbone Street wreck when, among other things, the Hamburg Avenue trolley line in Brooklyn became the Wilson Avenue Line.
"It was anti-German sentiment that was in vogue at the time of the Malbone Street wreck when, among other things, the Hamburg Avenue trolley line in Brooklyn became the Wilson Avenue Line."
Speaking of which, wasn't it the same sentiment which temporarily changed "hamburgers" to "salisbury steaks" and "sauerkraut" to "victory cabbage"? Or was that WW2?
What could they have changed "frankfurters" to? "New York Tube Steaks"?
Even better. "Hudson Tube Steaks."
Rim shot!
Speaking of which, wasn't it the same sentiment which temporarily changed "hamburgers" to "salisbury steaks"
That's a new one on me. Salisbury steaks and hamburgers are both made from chopped meat but are a rather different dish today. I don't know about WWI.
and "sauerkraut" to "victory cabbage"? Or was that WW2?
Yes, that was WWI. Also old Fannie Farmer cookbooks show the recipe for what we now call French Toast as German Toast, so maybe that's another one.
Speaking of which, wasn't it the same sentiment which temporarily changed "hamburgers" to "salisbury steaks"
That's a new one on me. Salisbury steaks and hamburgers are both made from chopped meat but are a rather different dish today. I don't know about WWI.
Salisbury steaks are named after the man who promoted them as, of all things, a health food. Hamburgers were never renamed during either world war. I guess the name was sufficiently entrenched in the American psyche to withstand any anti-German sentiment.
One twist on the renaming process happened in the city of Berlin, Connecticut. Many residents wanted to change the city's name after World War I began, but came to realize that doing so would be a big hassle. As a sort of compromise, they changed the pronunciation of the name, to BUR-lin.
Did you know that there was a bank in Brooklyn that did not yield to the name changing pressures of the times.
They conducted business and continued to grow in Brooklyn through WW-I & WW-II as the Hamburg Savings Bank, and did not lose their identity until a merger about 1980.
Sure I remember the Hamburg. Didn't they have an office in Ridgewood?
First and main office was 1451 Myrtle Ave.
Ridgewood office was only a few blocks away. I believe at the corner of Wyckoff & Gates.
Cypress Hills office was at the corner of Fulton & Crescent, right alongside the famous el turn on the Jamaica line. I believe this one is part of the Greenpoint Bank now.
By 1918 they were just called Nathan's.
Thanks, Alan, I hadn't realized that a scab and an inexperienced motorman was my hero....
;-D
I thought he was your hero!!
You are always trying to imitate him with 1227 at BERA!!
LMAO when I saw your response. Guess it takes one to know one Doug.
Anthony Lewis (aka Edward Luciano) was aquited. Not so much because he was innocent. But more because Mayor Hylan was more interested in convicing the brass of the BRT.
Malbone St was changed the name was considered too scary for some people. Unknown if Empire Blvd was named after the Kosher chicken company.
R46 and R62 cars are the same height.
Nope...not quite:
R-46 height (roof to top of rail): 12' 1-1/2"
R-62 height (roof to top of rail): 11' 10-5/8"
From EVOLUTION OF NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS by Gene Sansone.
DAvid
Exxxxxxcuuuuuuuuuuuse Meeeeeeeeeeeee!
Oh, you're one of those guys who believes that three inches doesn't make a difference. ;-)
Before September 11th, the homepage of nycsubway.org had many different colors on it. Then, because it was appropriate, the page was changed to the color black due to the unfortunate circumstances. But once that period was over, the page was turned back to all white without any colors, so it has sorta looked plain since then. I don't mean to sound like a whiner, Dave. But if you do get some free time, it would be great to see some more colors again...either like before, or something new...I'll leave that up to you. Thanks! :-) -Nick
The current setup was like that since before 9/11. I like the way it currently is, BTW.
Based on what I read this week, this is what I think should happen to conform with increased demand to mid-Manhattan, decreased to lower-Manhattan:
1) Reroute C (R38) south of W4 to Metropolitan Avenue to cut crowding on L.
2) Discontinue M except late nights and weekends.
3) Extend J to West End line except nights and weekends
4) Extend E to Euclid except nights (R46)
5) Divert V from 2nd Avenue to WTC (R32) except nights, but run weekends.
I think it's basicaly a wash with equipment use and frequency, althouh the V would run weekends, which it should anyway. Queens would need more equipment, ENY would need less. That could be done by sending R40's to CI, and R32's to Queens.
Send the C to Canal weekdays, and Metropolitan weekends. (Less cleaning out necessary/fewer cars at Canal).
The E past Canal would be good for all the Queens riders who used to get off at WTC, but now have to change at Canal.
When the new cars are in, extend the V to Church (and the G; and the F exp.)
Weekends have the J run up 6th Av. and 53rd St. to Queens Plaza and turn on D5 track, which would fill in for the V
A shuttle would run from Essex to Chambers. But this might not be good, as one of the lines should run to Chambers to connect with the Q and W at Canal, and 4, 5, 6 at Chambers, and alot more people are on the J before Essex now.
Hi,
I had thought I was going to get a dvd player, so of course I wanted my first dvd to be taking of pelham 1-2-3.... now I have decided against getting one, so I have the dvd sitting here...
Anyone interested in purchasing for $10 plus $3 shipping? email mightyman@onebox.com if interested.
Thanks,
Allen
This afternoon I was riding this train, The train had a lot of problems gaining speed, especially after reaching a full stop.The T/O said that some of the cars in the back of this train, were having this problem, It came up on the monitor.The T/O said that the R-142's have a lot of software problems, and the R-142A's dont have as many software problems.Do R-142's have propulson problems? This train was running quite sluggish.
Yes and it keeps us all employed watching the manufacturer/vendors run around and you can't do anything but watch. Peter
I remember that on a rainy day not too long ago I was riding this trainset. When raindrops were hitting the third rail, the set was picking up like a train three times its age. This was the case all the way from 233rd st to Third Av. Thus I'm not too surprised at the acceleration problems.
As for the R-142As, well, IMO, the software is probably the only thing that is good about those trains, and that's after the fleet had to be pulled back for a mini - GOH.
that is bombardiers main problem right now, but it seems to be only 2 sets. that last one o got stuck on was 6501-15. the train would not move. all the other R-142's run like rockets
Rain can cause power supply problems, and of course wheel slippage problems.
Where are our resident NYCSUBWAY electricians? Comments please?
On the R142 & 142A orders, you need to purchase an extended
software license key to enable operation in the rain.
Or you can buy the upgrade license pack that allows you to step up to 142-XPee for the complete multimedia arc and spark experience. :)
Hardy-har-har
:0)
They HAVE to upgrade ... Interlock Explorer is no longer supported. :)
R142s have more problems than Carter made liver pills. Suck it up and enjoy the smooth ride when you can. Peter
Is it kinda weird that CT Transit's New Flyers aren't running today? Or at least I didn't see any...I was all over the Stamford Metro Area and didn't see anything...maybe I'll go back sometime on the weekday, that's if they actually went into service...
Cleanairbus
Whoops, WRONG MESSAGE BOARD!
-C.
Well, my dear Sea Beach buddy, I needed to go to Stillwell today. I knew that the Ns weren't going to Stillwell, so I walked to the W to get a CI bound train. Guess, what? The CI bound trains were running over the N line!!! Instead of haveing the N go to Stillwell, they let the W go to Stillwell. The friggin train running over Sea Beach because of a GO goes to Stillwell, but not the actual Sea Beach itself. They could have taken out the W completly again so the N would cover the Manhattan bound on the West End and have the N go to Stillwell at least... but NOOOOOO, they let the fake yellow go to Stillwell. I swear-tuh-ma-god I hate the W and for good reason too...
Just because the (W) wasn't good to you, going down to CI via Sea Beach instead of the Sea Beach (N), doesn't mean you can diss my (W), that's my growing favorite line (other that the (2), (6), and (R) trains). The (W) is the sweetest and funniest things to hit the Broadway line (expresses running on B'way again!), and the thing is, the way they fly past (N) local stops in Astoria, oh, boy...
Okay, lemme stop
Cleanairbus
(W) train rules Broadway! [Forget the (Q)...they suck!]
Your talking about my train.Your W is just filling in for the B.When that comes back then where will your W be.And the Q can do a better job than that w!Besides.While the W is bypassing N trains my Q is already burning rails in Brooklyn!
THE (Q) and both stink...clogging the b'way express tracks when the (W) should be enough...hey...sadly the (W) is the (W), but the Q seems to have an identity crisis :P
The W, The W is only a Temp Train. The Q Rules the Southern Division that is why they have 2 Qs both Express and Local, only 1 N, 1 W 1 R but 2 Qs
But none of your Q's will see Coney Island. Only the W will.
The (Q) goes to CI in place of the Brighton Local D.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
We know that. We're talking about during Stillwell reconstruction.
But it will still go to the Beach
Not when the Stillwell re-hab kicks in. That was the point of my post.
When the B comes back the W won't even go to Brooklyn....it will become a rush-hours only local on the Astoria tracks and Broadway tracks. Ditmars Blvd. to Whitehall St., local all the way.
Wow, so the W will actually be kept? Sounds nice... but with the T/A and 3 years away, we'll have to wait and see...
If that happens, then what will be the line-up on Broadway:
R - local
W - local (Astoria to Whitehall)
N - Express (57th St - Canal, then via bridge).
Which will mean that the B,D,Q will be on the 6th Ave line again.
I can live with that. If that happens, I'll be happy... then, the N will no longer be screwed.
The Q will probably remain on Broadway.
Yeah ... "Q" is one of those "nosebleed letters" so high up in the alphabet, it'd be heresy to put it on the IND Brighton line when the bridge is back. Heh. I love busting chops on my BMT brethren and was proud to operate D trains on their skeevy railroad. :)
Before the D was extended yo Brooklyn in 1954 first on the Culver and then on the Brighton, it was just a short line from Manhatten to the Bronx dirty cars that never got washed, because they were always inside a tunnel.
You mean, kind of like the way it is right now? :)
--Mark
Heh. I *knew* you'd rise to the occasion. They did just fine thank you while sentenced to the sewers I'll have you know. They didn't even BEGIN to rust until someone forced the R1/9's to "hit the shower" ... now, for your consideration, the BMT standards ... man oh man - the rustbirds are deja vu all over again. Heh.
But don't mind me - I only bust chops because most of the folks here seem to be from Brooklyn and as a Bronx boy, I'm feeling lonely and shivering in the Bronx's MAINLAND cold. The Bronx didn't have moderated temperatures like you island dwellers. :)
Seriously though, was AMUSED when I ran on the Brighton line - everywhere else in the world, the Express would go all the way to the end of the line after skipping oodles of stops while the local would usually terminate somewhere short of the end of the line. ONLY on the Brighton line would the express just drop off out of nowhere on an EL. And strangely enough, the Brighton Beach express had to drop in after coming up from CIY or deadhead to Coney anyway since the layups south of BB weren't all that plentiful anyway. A conundrum, I tell ya ...
I'll bet a lot of people never knew about the "City of New York" lettering on the sides of the R-1/9s until the cars were washed.
It was pretty, no? And the R-1's had it in GENUINE GOLD LEAF under the lacquer ...
I remember seeing it on some prewar northbound E trains as they moaned past the southbound platform at 42nd St.
Damned torchies never got their proper shake on THOSE cars when the acetylene did its thing ... I'd bet that there was $400-800 worth of gold right there on the damned sides of the cars. Amazing what a prior "gold standard of $35" could buy ya back then. And since they were done in the depression, gold at the time was DIRT CHEAP ... I'da licked it off. Heh.
But in even the dull glow of 15 watt lamps, it SHONE when it was clean.
Yup they war washed in the 60s, just once
Hahaha ... and only those that were out in the hurricane. :)
And how about the accumulation of steel dust on the interior poles?
Sweaty palms usually took care of that problem. :)
Not to mention those clean areas on the exterior around the doors.
I remember as a kid, they layed up the Brighton Express Trains between Brighton and Ocean Pkwy, then the excess trains, were layed up after 10.00PM on the Express Track toward Brighton Beach from Kings Highway South thru Sheapshead Bay. I always wondered how the Operator got to the station late at night, since this was always after 10PM. My uncle who was one of the few Jewish Conductors said, they walked back thru the trains to Sheapshead Bay. Long Walk for the Northmost Train. But they were still on the clock
Yep ... the "scourge of grafitti" changed those rules although they still laid up south of BB until the tails were filled and DAMN if they didn't get tagged. When I was there though, they still laid some up there, but they were the first out in the morning and last in at night. Until shutdown time for the route, the extras went to Coney and came from Coney.
Worse, you never knew the color of the train car
Er, um, the IND Brighton Line?
--Mark
Heh. Yeah, that irked my buddies down in Sheepshead bay to no end. Had to remind many over the years that the D was the "Concourse" line and that if they wanted to remain pure to the BMT fatherland, they'd have to change for the QB. :)
I always though the old signs on the D said 6th Ave Express
Yes indeed they did, but to us IND types, it was the "Concourse line" ... that 6th/8th Ave stuff was merely to make Manhattanites feel more important. It was either "Washington Heights" or "Concourse" to the rest of us. :)
The R-1/9s also had "D-6th Ave.-Houston Express" on their side route signs. I remember seeing a few signed up that way. My IND route surtain also has that sign, but when I do sign it up as a D, I set it to "D-6th Ave. Express".
Yep ... the "Houston" signage was the ORIGINALs ... congrats on having rolls that are WORTH it. :)
God I hope not
No, the Q is a dedicated Bway line, it will most likely be like this:
N: Astoria-Bway Exp-Bridge-Sea Beach
R: same
W: Astoria {or Continental possibly}-Bway lcl-Whitehall
B/D: 6th Ave exp
Q: helps the N on Bway exp and ends at 57
I think this plan would be better in 2004, when the Bridge is back to normal. First, all trucks would have to use lower roadway. All lighter vehicles should use the upper roadway. Here is the subway plan:
< B > Concourse Local/ 6th Av-West End Exp via Bridge
Bedford Park Blvd to Coney Island
(B) CPW Local/ 6th Av-West End Exp via Bridge
145th Street to Coney Island
(D) Concourse-6th Av Exp/ Brighton Local via Bridge
205th Street to Coney Island
(E) 8th Avenue-Queens Express via 53rd Street Tunnel
Jamaica Center to Canal Street
All Times.
< E > 8th Avenue-Queens Express via 53rd Street Tunnel
179th Street-Jamaica to Canal Street
Rush Hours. Express in Queens 6am to 12midnight daily.
(F) 6th Avenue-Queens Express via 63rd Street Tunnel
179th Street-Jamaica to Coney Island
All Times. Express in Queens 6am to 12midnight daily. Express in Brooklyn from Jay Street to Church Avenue whenever the (V) is running.
(G) Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
Court Square to Church Avenue
Extended to Forest Hills whenever the (V) is NOT running.
(M) Nassau Street-Myrtle Avenue Local
Metropolitan Avenue to Chambers Street
< M > Nassau-West End Local via Nassau St Loop
Metropolitan Avenue to Bay Parkway
(N) Broadway-Sea Beach Exp via Bridge
Astoria to 86th Street (before 2005), Coney Island (in 2005)
Express Times Square to Canal Street all times. Express in Brooklyn, skipping DeKalb Avenue Weekdays 6am to 8pm.
(Q) Braodway-Brighton Exp via Bridge
57th Street-7th Avenue to Brighton Beach
(R) Broadway-4th Avenue Local via Tunnel
Forest Hills to 95th Street-Bay Ridge
6am to 12midnight daily. Service terminates at 57th Street-7th Avenue 12midnight to 6am daily.
(V) 6th Ave-Queens Local via 53rd Street Tunnel
179th Street-Jamaica to Church Avenue
Weekdays 6am to 8pm.
(W) Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel
Astoria to Coney Island
Stops at all Former (N)(R) local stations Astoria to DeKalb Avenue via Montague Street Tunnel all times.
All trucks on the lower roadway? The lower roadway is one-way, Manhattan-bound in the morning and Brooklyn-bound at all other times. Trucks can't use the Brooklyn Bridge at all, and for now trucks can't use the Manhattan-bound Williamsburg Bridge. I don't think that's a wise idea.
The D and W can't both turn at Stillwell.
The switching at DeKalb might get messy. In particular, there will invariably be delays southbound as the D, Q, and W merge.
There was no problem merging the D QB QJ or D M QB from 1967-1978, at least. I know. I used to ride. Why should there be a problem now?
There was no problem. Before Chrystie Street, there were 3 trains during the rush hours as well: M, Q and QT. The QJ and M were discontinued because Brighton riders wanted direct local service into Midtown Manhattan. Before that, the QT was a direct local service into Lower and Midtown Manhattan. If they restored the W as the Brighton Local via Tunnel in 2004, Brighton Riders would not have to cross platforms to change into crowded R trains into Manhattan during the AM rush. Then the N can return to Broadway Express service via the Manhattan Bridge.
BRIGHTON SERVICE in 2004 D-205th-Coney Island All Times via 6th Ave Q-57th St or Queens-Brighton Beach Express Brooklyn and Manhatten Local Queens Mon-Sat 6A-930PM via Bridge H-(or whatever) Astoria or Forest Hills via 59th Tunnel-Coney Island. Local all the way via Tunnel. Mon-Fri 6A-7PM. 2 Express Services on Bdwy via Bridge N-Q 2 Locals H-R No W, B to Return .
Where did you hear this? I thought the W was going to be made local from Astoria to Whitehall when the B and D resume Brooklyn service. Saturday Q Brighton express service? That would be nice.
Just a Pipe Dream, maybe it will come true. Just thoughts
I like your post and love the last sentence of it, but if you don't mind I will not hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
Fred Fred You are turning blue. Code Blue, Code Blue, Fred is not breathing, Fred Breath
I'd be more concerned with Fred having a stroke.
Even when the Bridge bullsh*t is over, the W might disappear, but at least it was a kick-ass line. At least the W never crept up and down through Brooklyn like that "Q" did...
Man, that "W" on 4th Avenue...can you EVER try doing that fast a Brighton line express? Hah! (and DON'T SAY THE W IS SLOW JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME R68s, mostly R68As) Them Kawasaki speed demons can run 45-50 better than them Brighton thingies...
Celanairbus
"W" train rules!
(BTW, W train is the coolest, why else would there be a "W" train shirt? Do you see any Q train shirts? If so, bring it to the next picnic! )
They finally got a W shirt out? What does it say, Astoria to Brooklyn or something like that?
The What Train, will last no longer then then the old HH Shuttle, when the bridge is open the B will be back and the W will be history, and I gather you never rode the Q from Kings Highway to Newkirk Ave in a slant
so what...GO N train will be happy after the manny b flips again, since the N might run express over it...and W will go to whitehall...
LOL yea the W rules! i remember it only took about a hour and 15 min the first day i rode it, from Astoria making exp stops to Coney island!
I've ridden the Q express in a slant several times. It is a nice run. But the W's not a bad run either.
I like the West End in Brooklyn over the L to Coney Island, but it is a local. Remember the W to Brooklyn is not in the long plans as of yet. It was the 3 then the T/TT then the B and now the W. And probably back to the B again
You should have heard some of the nicknames we came up with for the Whiskey during our expedition last month.
Yes do stop before I put a hex on you. The R as one of your favorites? Holy shit, that line has to be the armpit of the BMT. I have despised that line since I was a kid. And the 2? What a loser of a line. Iss that your idea of a cheap thrill. As for the W I have no argument that it is on Broadway for it happens to be a good line. The West End has always passed muster with me, certinaly better than that damn B IND that passed for the West End before. Butthe Sea Beach line should be for the Sea Beach. Capice????
Oh ho ho ho, you did NOT just insult the R. It may not be fast, but at least it's not being insulted by the W. Ha!
The R train is sweet! After all...it does give you the fast dash on the 60th st tube...
The R has never recovered fom being relocated from Astoria to Forest Hills and losing its second R.
It's still #2 in my book. :-)
The N is faster it doesn't have to deal with the 11st cut switch.
It sure as hell beats the G during the rush. Six car trains have no place on Queens Blvd.
The Sea Beach doesn t even go to the Beach Anymore
No, the 2 line is suffering the same fate that the N has been suffering for too long now. A once proud IRT express in Manhattan that has been forced on to the 7th Avenue local tracks, indirectly, by an act of terror brought on by a coward in Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden, who is Satan himself and whose minions are the spawn of Satan.
I agree with you that the "R" train is the armpit of the BMT. It is the pits since it is only a local train. What's more it doesn't even go outside. The "R" train is one of the most boring lines in the system.
#3 West End Jeff
It does stink that R runs entirely underground. The run through the 60th Street tunnel can be nice, though. But the only times I found it intersting were the occasional reroutes over the Manny B. I rode rerouted R trains over the Manny B while heading home from school. They were rerouted over the D line from DeKalb to West 4th, then over the F line from West 4th to Queens Plaza. A rare trip, but a good one.
Unfortunately the "R" rarely runs over the Manhattan Bridge as you had mentioned in your post.
#3 West End Jeff
I know, it was rare. But still interesting. If you're at DeKalb and get an R train that gets rerouted over the Manny B, take it! Of course, now that only the Broadway tracks are open, rerouted R's will return to regular service at Canal Street and not Queens Plaza.
Wow, I did not expect my post to cause a chain reaction of this degree. Sorry to Q and R fans.
Cleanairbus, please explain why the W is growing to be one of your favorite lines. I personally think that it's caused more trouble than good. Think about it, first, the West End riders can't even get to Manhattan without transferring. That's bad for that line because most of the West End goes through Bensonhurst which has a lot of Chinese people. Their main goal on weekends (as well as weekdays) ... to get to Chinatown of course! Then as Q7 mentioned, a W was put in front of his N. Caused wait. W express service in Astoria was eliminated, wasn't it?
Bensonhurst... You mean there's another Chinatown there??
It's not a Chinatown, but there's just a lot of Chinese people who've moved in in the past decade. If you're less than 20, you can come around and see the Azn girls there. Go to the handball courts at Seth Low park ;)
No, no, no! The W was held out in the tunnel while an N was put in front of it. When he finally got the OK, there was another N that now had to wait. I spent 10 minutes today at Bay Parkway while the N crews got their act together at Kings Highway and 86 St.
The W isn't facing a service cutback.The W will always go to Stillwell(At least until the 2 crappy lines go back).And in theory the N is the fake yellow(or at least 1/2 of the fake yellow)because of it's extremely awful service.Plus IIRC: the tracks and tiles for the N platform is already removed.
Right now after reading your post I am burning up. You are very right. I despise the TA for what they have done to our train. It just doesn't make sense what they are going. How is hell can you run the W on the Sea Beach line and leave the Sea Beach itself high and dry? Good God am I pissed. Somebody has to wake those morons in the MTA up.
Aw c'mon Unca Fred, you're taking this like NBC is taking one envelope filled with anthrax - reason to completely flip out ... and encourage everyone else to leap for the street. :)
How's about another view of the sitchyation? With the Sea Beach getting ripped up at Stillwell first, hasn't it occurred that when Stillwell is rebuilt, the mighty N might be the very first train to open up the new station since it'll be the first rebuilt? Maybe?
All a matter of view of course ... but wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the N is first running to the new digs.
That would be nice, but wasn't there a post before saying that even though the N platform might be rebuilt first (watch something wrong happen...), didn't someone say that W might use the N platform to keep the W going to Stillwell? Let's face it, it shouldn't take them 3-4 years (depending on when in 2005 the N will return) to rebuild just one platform...
If there is a Sea Beach at that time, it seems to be a dumping ground for garbage these days
I don't think they even run the garbage sucking train over it...
They'll probably make it into the Sea Beach Shuttle with the elimination of a few stops, like the Franklin Av. Shuttle, or the Culver Shuttle may it rest in peace.
86th St to 59th St, run it at 15-20 minutes, look at all the cars that will get freed up for other lines
Dunno ... maybe Unca Fred will come back east and put a stop to that idea. But I'll bet he VOTED for W. :)
I did vote for W, but what the hell does that have to do with the way the Sea Beach is being relegated tothe scrap heap? You want to blame George W for that? We know where the fault lies. You anti=Sea Beach dorks out there are having your fun at the N fans' expense, but so help me I will get down to the bottom of this even if I have to take a special trip to New York to go eyeball to eyeball with those TA sons of bitches. One of these days my train will get the respect it needs. But I wonder what the director ofthe N line is doing while his line is getting the shaft. He should be complaining loud and often. Believe me if I was in charge of the N line they wouldn't shit over the Sea Beach without a pile of it landing on them.
Gezz Unca Fred, take your lithium ... howdy guy! They named a train after him, a pretender to the throne and now it's assessed itself as King of the subways ... just having some fun. Man, you're going to get tanked when you read the next message about the "Sea Beach shuttle" being R32's a hundred years from now ... now take a deep breath, say to yourself "I'm among my ball busting buddies" and take it out over on Harry's place. I was a good boy ... didn't make a single wise crack about Ronnie Raygun's book ... cut me some slack. :)
The Sea Beach Shuttle of Brightliners 100 years from now! I love it! But this idea of yours is not as imaginative as many of your others. This one might actually occur! Fred better watch it. If he complains too much they'll make the Slow Beach a shuttle much sooner than that.
I'll bet Sister Cleo never imagined it. :)
We all get rusty sometimes - I need some steel wheels to bring back the luster.
Not going to happen.
Here is the scheduling for service for the next 3-4 years:
11/01-9/02 N Cut back to 86th Street. W,Q,F Run to Stillwell
9/02-5/04 N Cut back to 86th Street. Q Cut back to Brighton Beach with shuttle trains to West 8th Street only, F train to Avenue X only. W normal.
5/04-Early 2005 W, Q, F to Stillwell. N to 86th Street.
And this was from a Commuinty Board 13 meeting held back in December of last year. I believe nothing has changed since then.
Heh. Wow ... Unca Fred's going to be loading up the blunderbuss for sure now ... forget the Taliban, a cheesed off SeaBits Fred is a scary thing indeed. :)
I can't wait to see both shapes of Q turning at Brighton Beach. Wouldn't it be easier if locals went one more stop to Ocean Parkway? Or would that interfere with the shuttles?
Will there be shuttle buses also, to fill in the gaps?
That is just Fu@#@%^&*#$$% swell.
Watch your Blood Pressure, This all will be finished when you are in your 70s. Just hope for a elevator to get you to the train at Stillwell
I should go to the T/A headquarters and speak to someone there or if I'm lucky I can go into one of their meeting and have my say about the way they treat the Sea Beach Line which was once the crown jewel of the BMT. If they're really unlucky my concealed cleft palate will start to bother me enough so that I'll be good and PISSED OFF!! in front of those morons and tell them good and loud that they treat the Sea Beach Line like garbage and, if my concealed cleft palate continues to bother me during the meeting I should just snap back at them when they mention something stupid about what they want to do with the Sea Beach Line. I my own opinion the idiots at the T/A have nothing better to do with the Sea Beach Line than to treat it like garbage.
#3 West End Jeff
Thank you West End Jeff. Even though you're a West End fan, you'd help the Sea Beach.
Jeff is a real stand up guy, one of the real gems on Subtalk.
The N was never the crown Jewel, it was the 4 Train, which meant the Brighton(1) 4th Ave(2) and West End(3) were more important
The N was the crown jewel when it went express via bridge to 57/7. No more. It started to go downhill when the EE was eliminated which forced it to go to Continental. It did not recover when it got sent to Astoria. It will get no better till NYCT gets all 4 tracks returned on the Manny B and after the comoletion of the Stillwell station rehab.
I'm glad that at least one or perhaps more than one person stands up for me on "Sub Talk". It isn't always easy for me and it can be tough for me at times having to live with a concealed cleft palate that does hurt me sometimes and it can get me pissed off.
#3 West End Jeff
"I should go to the T/A headquarters and speak to someone there or if I'm lucky I can go into one of their meeting and have my say about the way they treat the Sea Beach Line which was once the crown jewel of the BMT"
I think the hot topic of discussions at their "meetings" are the 9-11 fiascos involving IRT Cortlandt St, the (E) terminating at Canal St and the R-142 headaches. Protesting shabby treatment of the (N) line could be viewed as comic relief !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah and the let a W in front of my N, and I was just going to 8th ave but the W was making express stops, well at least according to the C/R. Later I saw a C.I. bound W making local stops on the Sea Beach. I personally think the N and W could share platforms at C.I. on the weekends. It's just more bulls*** like why the N runs local on 4th ave on the weekends. The R is enough during the week (remember the north side days when the M only ran to Brooklyn rush hours?). Ridership is lighter on 4th ave on weekends so they should let the N run express. I know that stupid W gets in the way, turning it that is.
At the very least I think off hours and weekends the N could easily share the W platform at C.I.
During weekends it probably would be possible. After seeing what happened at Ditmars during PM rush hour on Monday however, I know that time period would be impossible.
And with most of the lower Manhattan stations getting little use why not put the N on the bridge while where at it? The bridge aint much faster than the tunnel though, it's the express tracks that make a difference. Still I'm not too thrilled about "the smell" getting into the Slant R40s and R32's of the N line. For some reason the 68's don't get smelly.
Did I ever get spoiled going down the Sea Beach for 6 weeks, despite those school kids I got stuck with at Ave. U most days. If Osama's boys didn't fly a couple of jets into the WTC killing all those innocent people, making life miserable and heartbreaking for the surviving family members, I would have gotten sick of the job and line I work a lot sooner and not picked it back. Because the line gets no respect in the southern division, the riders and train crews get the shaft. Another crew that has the same workload as I do (first trip to Ninth Ave, lunch, then 2 back to backs to Bay Pkwy) got rerouted to Stillwell on their Ninth Ave, trip recently. They got back to Met so late that other crews had to jump ahead (since that crew was not there for their first Bay Pkwy trip). When they finally did arrive, they had to play catch up for the rest of the day and deprived of their lunch and all recovery time. Whenever the Never, Rarely or Worthless don't show up, you know what line has to pick up the slack by being rerouted. Coming back from Bay Pkwy., you leave late because the W is late. Now the M has lost its slot at 36th St., so an R goes ahead. If an N meets an R at Pacific, then the M is the third train to go. Now you are super late and you lost your slot at Broad St. and you follow a J at least to Marcy. Get to Met at least 10 minutes late and the crew has to explain to a skeptical dispatcher (who had no info on the lateness, never passed up by the other towers) the reason for the lateness. Now it's time for the second trip to Bay Pkwy, because you lost your recovery time. And I thought the E was bad with those C's and F's put ahead of you! May (or whenever the spring pick commences) won't come soon enough!
AS i said to CCNY, boys???
Also remember that the W train get's priority over both Q's Manhattan bound on the bridge. I don't know how many times while waiting at Dekalb on a Q for a W that is running late, it backs up the whole line. But last week they let our Q go ahead of a W. Payback time!
Seriously it does appear that the W's OTP is very poor, and it always backs up the Manny B lines. The B was the same way.
I don't think the W has priority over the Q anymore.
The B did, and I never understood why. There were presumably a number of passengers on each Q train who wanted to transfer to a B or D to get away from the 63rd Street dead-end and continue uptown. But if a B and Q approached the bridge at the same time, the B was invariably sent first, giving Q passengers a long wait to transfer to the next B. (Sure, B passengers had a short wait for the Q, but how many B passengers were looking for 63rd Street?)
Sorry about the late response, I just went through the thread. I believe the B had priority over the D/Q and then the W had priority over the Q/Q because 4th Ave only has one representation on the bridge, which was the old B and new W. In this case, I can understand that that line deserves special treatment when getting priority over the Brighton trains, which come like every 3-4 minutes.
I started this thread. And the bottom line is that they all have priority over the M. At Broad St. the Queens bound J get priority and at the Bway/Myrtle crossover, the Manhattan bound J gets priority over the Queens bound M.
I get the point of the thread but in this case the Subtalk board was just questioning why the B always had priority over the D and I was just explaining it. I agree the M gets the short-end of the stick.
I think the M gets the shaft all the time because ridership is low compared to other lines. I know that during the AM rush, n/b M trains running from Bay Pkwy to Manhattan seem empty. At the same time, the W trains look packed.
Because the W is a Express and goes Midtown, and the M is a Local and only goes downtown is the reason why the W is packed.
Armed with this knowledge, the NYCTA should reduce the number of trains on lines with low ridership, and send those trains to lines in need of more cars, and more service.
Back when the M ran express from 36th to Pacific, ridership was much more balanced.
>>>>>>>>>>At Broad St. the Queens bound J get priority and at the Bway/Myrtle crossover, the Manhattan bound J gets priority over the Queens bound M
I disagree. Southbound when I'm on the J, I've been cut many times by the M at Bway/Myrtle. Southbound at Hewes, now that's a different story. 90% of the time, the J goes first.
Northbound, it's just a race. If the J punches before the M bridges the circuit, then the J goes first. If the M gets on the circuit before the punch, then the M wins.
I agree with you. I am a lunch relief and many times the train I am on has been held for an arriving M and we are already in the station. I too have been on the train heading towards Myrtle and see the signal go red and then hear the announcement "We have a train crossing in front of us."
I agree. I've been stuck on the J as M's were allowed to leave first at Myrtle. The silliest thing is that a lot of times, both trains will sit in the station for minutes before one gets the proper lineup to leave!
Bill, I still can't fathom why you'd pick those garbage M jobs. Talk about overwork.
Consider next pick since you want $$$ C-214 starting at 908 @ EUC. 3 trips (R32 and 38 only) for 1101, and you get 1 hour for lunch.
I'm nearly finished with my training as a motorman/conductor for the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. Driving those old turn of the century streetcars is a blast. So far I'm doing great though today I did run over and "kill" a couple of orange cones in the car barn.
Eric Dale Smith
Went to New York's three "Chinatowns" today. First Chinatown in Manhattan. I took the 7 line to GCT. I was suprised I didn't see a police officer by the Vernon-Jackson station, usually they are near tunnel entrances. I had to walk up a broken escalator at the west end at GCT, and then I just made a 6 train which I took down to Bway-Lafeyyete for the Grand st shuttle. The shuttle was waiting. I'm glad I didn't miss it because it's a long wait. The Grand street shuttle does well, it was SRO. Chinatown wasn't too busy, about 50 percent of what it normally is on a Saturday. The "smell" was in the air though, so I couldn't stay too long, because it gives me a headache.
From Chinatown I took a slow Q ride over the bridge, and took a slant R40 N train that was across the platform. We ran local all the way too 59th (why can't they run the N express). The W arrived at 59th at the express track, and was let in front of us. I stayed on the N because the C/R said the W was express on Sea Beach.
I got off at 8th ave. I'm really liking the Chinatown on 8th ave, it's busier and the"smell" isn't around. EXcept for the smell of chinese food. Going back I took a Manhattan bound N and we ran local once again. I saw a W stopping at 8th CI bound.
I took the N to Dekalb where I took the Q back to Manhattan. The W appears to reverse N of Pacific. The Q was really slow, track workers all over the place on the bridge. More workers after Canal, and we passed the N I got off of at Prince st. The bridge aint quicker than the tunnel but once on the express it's faster. Going back from Manhattan I took an N to QBP and took a 7 to Flushing. But there was a problem at 111th. The homeball was red over red and not changing. The track ahead was marked with a red flag and trip arm, according to track work. After 5 minutes it was announced there were switching poblems. You could see workers on the switch where the second diverging is, trying to fix the problem. I heard platform announcements that said 7 to flushing was running express from Woodside. Finally after 15 minutes the signal went y over y and we took a left diverging, then left diverging again. At this second switch there were workers with the box open looking at the circuts.
This problem lasted from 4:15 to 4:30pm.
Flushing was very busy. It seems Flushing is booming much more than Chinatown. 8th ave in Brooklyn is booming also. Chinatown isn't doing as well as it used to, and I guess we all know why.
Interesting trip report. What did you eat?
Oddly I ate at Wendy's near 3rd and 57th!
I usually eat at the McDonalds when I'm by 59th and 3rd.
There's a Wendy's by Union Square which has to be the best run fast food place in the area. There's only one line (no looking for the shortest one), cash registers have those auto-change thingies, plenty of tables that seat only two, and most importantly a 99 cent menu.
I was at Wendy's in Union Square before, but it was very crowded and kinda like a communal cafeteria. I like the one on 3rd and 57th ave better, because it is larger and offers a bit more privacy. Also there was one I went to a Wendy's in lower Manhattan, not too far from Park Row a few weeks ago. They have TV's with CNN on, a large area for lines, and two levels of tables (one in the basement, the other on the second floor. Only drawback is the presence of the Smell.
As for McDonald's, I can't stomach their food.
I rarely go to McDonalds anymore, about three months ago I gave up on them. But sometimes it's the only food around (ie: SI Ferry Terminal).
Do you know of any White Castles in Manhattan near Subway stops? I've never seen one, and would much rather go to one there rather than at Woodhaven Blvd, which is one stop away from mine yet too far to walk so I end up spending an extra $1.50 on my way home (or out) to pick up lunch.
I was the Wendys at Uniion Square yesterday, it was crowded and the unisex bahroom sucks. The only White Castle I know in Midtown is IIRC on 8Av in the 34-42St area.
Flushing was very busy. It seems Flushing is booming much more than Chinatown. 8th ave in Brooklyn is booming also. Chinatown isn't doing as well as it used to, and I guess we all know why.
Actually, I believe that Manhattan Chinatown had been declining, at least in comparison to Flushing and 8th Avenue, even before September 11.
The N does run 4th Ave express in the peak direction but problem is only on weekdays.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Actually N runs in both directions 4th ave express all day (except late nights) during the weekdays. Not too long ago I rode a Slant R40 N in the afternoon Manhattan bound doing frightening speed between 36th and Pacific.
Dont get used to 8th ave booming I live in the area and there is a strong anti Chinese population growing.Especially since the gangs started coming around,Every weekday morning Immigration officals are condeming houses witch house up to 30 people in one house.Plus now department of health officials have been cracking down on restaurants in the area . Because of this people have been moving in droves.I applaud the efforts to keep the community safe and healthy ,Living in the area for over 20 years I would hate to see it turn out Like Main St. or Canal. Those areas are overpopulated and Dirty, Being a C/r on the 7 I have seen how a neighborhood can change , Main st used to be a lovely Middle class Neighberhood now its a rat infested smelly place I call a work location.
Things change pal. You live in thisd country? Get used to it.
The 8th ave area seemed pretty safe to me. Also there's a sizable segment of chinese people with money, I saw quite a few luxury SUV's when I was there. Face it DRAGON clips are here to stay!!
You missed Avenue U on the Q Brighton Line and the W Line over 86 Street from 18 Avenue to Bay Parkway.
Well I'll have to check those Chinatowns out! Brooklyn is becoming more mystical every day!
I was on an R46 today in which on pair of seats next to the cab and the nearby pole had been removed, presumably for wheelchair access in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Does anyone know if this modification going to be made on all 75 foot cars?
That car (6182[4?]) has been like that since it was built. No other cars are like that.
Thanks. I don't think that I ever noticed that before, even though I have been riding the R46 on the F since they arrived.
Actually, it's been like that since it was REbuilt (ca. 1990), not since it was built. If memory serves, it was car 630.
David
I don't know what kinds of modifications have been made to existing fleets.
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I'm just wondering...is it possible to expand the IRT tunnels to accomodate BMT/IND trains??
With construction, you could expand IRT tunnels to accomodate houses.
In it's present state, no you cannot.
That wouldn't happen even in a perfect world. The amount of money it will take to expand the 1904 tunnels in this day in age will probably equal the amount that's about to come from Washington. Hypothetically, even if money were allocated for IRT tunnel widening, how would RTO route the lines and allocate car equipment? They would have to scrap the enitre IRT fleet AS IS and have a builder get about 1500 cars in a hurry. Before that, bridge plates would have to be installed at every station in the IRT system. I don't think even the most hardcore IRT veteran will be willing to put up with that kind of inconvenience.
A more feasible (yet still expensive) way to increase capacity would be to lengthen platforms to accommodate longer trains. See page 79 of this http://ntl.bts.gov/DOCS/lrp.html report for such a recommendation. It has been done before. It would still be very expensive, but it is cheaper than building a whole new line. I believe that some of the 1950s Second Avenue subway bond money went into lengthening IRT platforms to serve 10 car trains. If we still have overcrowding after the new signaling system is implemented (over the next decade, or so), we should consider going to 12 car trains on the IRT but only after all other less costly means of decreasing rush hour overcrowding are tried (eg: tax credits for employers who stagger employees' work hours).
Imagine four swamis paddling an inspection platform. Anything is possible if you can dream. 'Namaste, welcome to all India railways, please watch the closing doors, next stop is Times Square, thankyouverymuch.' TA is my home, Peter.
The sections of the IRT built during the Dual Contracts and later are built to the larger standards. However, there is no single existing route that could be converted by just cutting back platforms. The best possible runs would be from Grand Central to Pelham or Jerome or from Times Square south to where the two lines meet in Brooklyn (Nevins St.?) Other short segments are at the ends of small tunnels. The fact that the present IRT uses parts of the original line on both trunks, pretty much kills any chance for larger equipment without an unreasonable expense.
The (2) isn't a cheap thrill...it's not that bad...well...until the 'morons' at the MTA made it run local! (credit David J. Greenberger)
Don't blame the MTA for turning the Deuce local (well, technically you could; there should be a way for RTO to run it express in the peak direction, flipping the 3 between tracks at 14th depending on the time of day); blame it on the boys who decided to lay waste to the WTC.
boys??? don't you mean @$$h***s?
I stand corrected.
There is only one crossover switch between the express tracks just north of 14th St., not a scissor switch, which is why the 3 setup is the way it is.
i'm doing a 1987 map of the subway system...i just need some ideas on how i should draw the H round-robin service...
I Broad Channel
I
I
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
Rock. Park __________/_________\____________ Far Rock.
Well, the structure didn't come out right when it posted. Oh well.
If you can't understand Steve's graph:
Euclid Av to Broad Channel then to Rockaway Park, back to B90-Holland, STRAIGHT across to B67-Gaston and Far Rockaway, back to Broad Channel and Euclid.
Glad someone figured it out.
thanks, but i sorta got it...if only somebody would tell me how to post pictures...
Upload the picture to some web space where remote-loading is allowed, then put {img src="http://[insert web address here]">. Replace { with <. Remember to put the http:// in or else it will assume the picture is located in the current directory (http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin).
In other words...the Round Robin! Bet that was an interesting job to work. Too bad they didn't keep it around because (loving the A line as I do) I would love to work that run.....very little time underground, and lots of time in the Rockaways. This one was for the outdoor lovers.
Nice to work in the summer time, but if you had to work that trip during a winter blizzard with wind chill temps around minus 35 and a strong wind off the ocean, you might not be too pleased. For those who have to be there in the winter time, go to any Army-Navy store and buy a jump suit to go over your regular clothes, so that you can at least be warm and avoid frost bite.
I could imagine so. But like "Jailhouse" said, during the winter it must've been literally hell on wheels. That and the Round Robin was a midnight job.
Ancient?
I remember the H.
I even rode the HH when I was young.
And I'm sure not ancient.
sorry to those ppl who felt insulted when i called the H ancient...but it is old...older than me...
Actually, it is STILL around, they refer to the job pick for the Rockaway shuttle as the "H"... AND the 1948 stock (R-10) was running on the "H" as late as 1988, that's not that long ago, certainly not ancient history.
wayne
Did the R10's or any other equipment in the 1980's actually display the 'H' sign?
When I rode the Rockaway Park-Broad Channel shuttle in the early 1980's, the trains were always signed 'CC'. All of the R44's I've seen in recent years use the gray 'S'.
Jim D.
The green R10 I rode in 1988 had the signs set to "H". It was a mid-day run from Euclid to Rockaway Park.
wayne
I'm sure some of the older trains still have the H on their rollsigns. Maybe some other things that would surprise us.
It's on the Dec. 1991 subway map, so it's not that old.
Why is the "H" letter not used now? It would be easier to understand than all the short runs labled "S", I think.
I agree with you, they should use "P" for Franklin Shuttle (Prospect Park) and "H" for Rockaway, as well as using another letter for the Slant Q ("U"?) and also using the #8, #10, #11 for the IRT diamond express #6 #5 and #7.
wayne
that was stopped in 92 0r 93. DATS ANCIENT????
Does anyone know which equipment will be getting the scrapper trip when the R-160 comes out. From what I have been hearing, the R-38, 40 (slant), 40M, some 42s and even some 44s will be going to the layup yard in the sky. Does anyone know how true this is? (Me personally the crappy R46s should go......very slow doors, unless they improve their doors like they did to the R44 and R40M and R42 when the door enabler came along)
Is it also true that the R32 will escape the scrapper when the R160 hits the rails? I heard the R32s will be sticking around.
R-32's are sticking around. R 40 series are going to scrap because they are rotting from within. some R-44 are going because they are a mechanical menace. R-38 are going for a fact. some R-42's are staying. I was told by my brother in law (Winston George) that because of the amount needed, the TA is looking at Bombardier again even though the bids aren't up yet. if they do get it, hopefully they will not do business with a few vendoers deemed crap and get new experienced builders. don't get antsy about having made in Ontario because the will be at La pocatiere, Plattsburgh and Auburn. they wouldn't make it at Thuder Bay (Ontario) becuse of location. location means guick delivery
They also have a R160A contract that will replace the R44s. I would think that Kawasaki gets the call.
A) No, "they" don't. Nothing is set in stone. Any talk of replacing the R-44s is, at this point, rumor, no matter who on SubTalk is saying it (as far as I am aware, Chairman Kalikow and President Reuter don't post here).
B) Who gets the contract is a matter to be decided sometime after the contract goes out for bid...which hasn't happened yet.
David
y not bombadier? also, the R160 would be B Div, right? OVerhauling the 44's should be good...
R-44s gotta go, I can't take these shits too much longer!
Now I don't know, I've heard for VARIOUS people, all at different times and in different departments with absolutely no connection with each other that the R-160A will in deed replace the R-44. Whether its rumor or not is a different story but if you hear it enough it kinda lingers as well this is a possibility.
R-160 order will definately kill the R-38 to R-42 class cars.
Now I heard a rumor, NOTE RUMOR, that the TA was considering tossing a few more cars onto the existing R-143 order so that the whole B-Eastern Division would be R-143. How true is that is totallt unkonwn. BUT it would be a good idea, it would make available for the much needed cars!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Make them all look alike so that repairs can be made without getting a huge bill for hard to get parts. The more customized the equipment gets, the harder it is to get spare parts for the inevitable repairs that will be needed.
Adding more to the R143 contract is doubtful. The contracts signed and done.
Don't say that! I've seen other transit properties take and tack on to a existing order mid-contract. And whats more is that ANYTHING is possible at the TA.....As we all know......
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Hi, I have a few questions:
1) What's the most break-down prone class on the B-division, R-44s?
2) What is the R-160 length? (I've heard 75-footers are out.)
3) What's the best carbuilder supplying the American market these days?
Thanks for the help.
1) According to a book that have (Circa 2000). Alot of the Eastern Division stuff hold low MDBF rates. However its 2001 going on 2002 so some things probably have changed.
2) The contract is suppose to call for a all 60 foot order, this is to allow the free movement of cars around the system. Getting 75 foot cars limit the availability to certain lines.
3) Well I don't know, Personally I think its Kawasaki! They do the smart thing and always build the lower # of cars per order which DEFINATELY ensures a better build quality.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
As a carbuilder, ANF Industrie of Paris (La Defence district),France (Bombardier subsidiary) does a really good job. They were the R-68's carbuilder.
Now, the R-68 did not perform well, but that was due in large part to poor communication between Westinghouse and ANF, and to poorly designed systems, not to carbody problems (you can have a beautifully done carbody and still get stinky performance in service).
ANF's portfolio also includes commuter and inter-city rail in France and elsewhere.
"R-44s gotta go, I can't take these shits too much longer!"
Maybe for a "Marshall Plan" to rebuild Afghanistan, we could send over retired R-44s and set up the TTA, Taliban Transit Authority!
Simple, just mount pantographs on the roofs and viola, the Kabul Local !! The 12 hour headways make make tempers flare, but it's better than what they have now which is nothing. Since it will be a few years before the R-44s are retired, we'll have Nimco send over some old worn out RTSs in the meantime. YES, Limited Stop bus routes !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Or maybe just drop them over there - from 10,000 feet, R44's can do a lot of damage on the ground. :)
They should send the retired M1s to afganistan
From 10,000 feet, they should leave QUITE the crater.
I like that a super daisy cutter. During WW2 they had a 30K lb bomb for submarine pens. Get rid of the trucks and fill the Redbirds with those cans of explosives the daisy cutter use and adjust the fuse for a higher altitude.
No one will ever forget the Redbirds, maybe rename them the Plasmabirds.
Note: Do not take this message too seriously! It is NOT intended to offend anyone
R-44s gotta go, I can't take these shits too much longer!
I can't take this shit much longer....
Now I don't know, I've heard for VARIOUS people, all at different times and in different departments with absolutely no connection with each other that the R-160A will in deed replace the R-44. Whether its rumor or not is a different story but if you hear it enough it kinda lingers as well this is a possibility.
Now I don't know, I've heard for VARIOUS people, all at different times and in different departments with absolutely no connection with each other that the [insert R-contract of your choice] will indeed [insert result of choice]. This includes people who are T/O's, track workers and the guy who calls himself a "TA comedian", wandering the platfroms screaming jokes.
R-160 order will definately kill the R-38 to R-42 class cars.
T. Logan used the Fuzzy Math approach here, where 660(R-160)=206(R-38)+100(R-40M)+300(R-40S)+400(R-42).
Now I heard a rumor, NOTE RUMOR, that the TA was considering tossing a few more cars onto the existing R-143 order so that the whole B-Eastern Division would be R-143. How true is that is totallt unkonwn. BUT it would be a good idea, it would make available for the much needed cars!
Must've been that "TA comedian" again.
it's not set in stone that Bombardier or Kawasaki is getting the orders. bur, to make it clear, i was told that one of them will be looked at again because of location and ability to build large amounts in short time with good quality. the bids are not up yet making the information that i just told you not official. wait till mid 2002.
R160 is a fixit mans dream. Aint gonna happen for a long time. Peter
The following goes:
R32GE (10 cars - maybe that won't wait for the R160)
R38 (~200 cars)
R40S (~300 cars)
R42CI (~110 cars - the ones that Coney Island GOH'd)
The R32, R40M, and 290 R42 remain.
What? Someone posted that the R-40s are rotting from within. If so, why, why would the slants be slated to go, but the modifieds stay? Are't they virtually the same car?
On Friday (11/10) morning, there was no conventional Fern Rock to Walnut express service was down. There were people on the platforms of the express stations saying there was no express service. I got on at Walnut for a northbound train to Olney. Since there was no express, I got on a surprisingly empty local (the northbound local at Walnut at that time usually has all seats full and some standees, full with people commuting from South Philly to Center City). When we left City Hall, more than all the seats were full with the usual local crowd plus usual express riders (at this time, locals are normally empty).
The funny thing happened at Girard. SEPTA runs Ridge Express trains from 8th/Market to Olney on the Express track. When we arrived at Girard, an express train pulled in that came from 8th/Market. The funny thing was, the T/O announced there was no express service when there was an express train across the platform. I ran across and rode it to Olney. I have no clue why there was a delay, but it was fixed by 11:30 AM.
Today I had the hella ride in a R-32! This was the best ride ever.
On the N south/westbound into Manhattan from Queensboro Plaza in the Lexington Tubes, we achieved a optimum speed of 62 MPH, this is the fastest I have ever gone in that tube and no less on a R-32.
Hmmmmm, R-32s are starting to get a nice rating on my fav. subway car list!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
They can cook and boogie with the fastest in the system, Trevor. For an untamed IND experience, ride an R32 "E" train from Queens Plaza to 71st-Forest Hills and hang on in the express stretches. These guys are no slouches, almost as good as the Slants.
wayne
The R-32 is certainly a fine-performing car. What drives me nuts sometimes is when trains occasionally crawl through stretches of Queens Blvd track, and that has more to do with signalling than with the train, regardless of equipment.
Has anyone noticed that the E and F have slowed a bit west-bound passing 36th St station? I perceive it to be so, and guess it's because of the change in geometry to accommodate the 63rd St Connector's ramps. When the F is permanently rerouted through 63rd St in December, I imagine it will have a slower operating speed west of 36th St as it descends and climbs the ramps.
There are some blind trips in that stretch also, but I have not spotted them yet. Anybody out there who can point them out, let me know.
Best car in the system, built by Budd and they took things very seriously. And it's bound to outlive many of the newer cars too. 100 years from now, it'll be better regarded than the standards. And probably still running on the Sea Beach shuttle. :)
I love those R32s. I call them pringles! :-D
Budd really outdid themselves with the R-32s. They'll be around longer than any other NYC subway car class, I'm sure.
Budd STILL rules !
Bill "Newkirk"
Unfortunately, it's Bombardier that holds the Budd patents. Go up to Plattsburgh today with R32 specs, and say "build it", they will screw it up. Maybe the Thunder Bay plant would do better. They still build good T-1 cars for TTC, basically, and update of the H classes of Hawker-Siddeley.
we achieved a optimum speed of 62 MPH,
How did you determine how fast the train was going?
If you are at the railfan window, by the T/Os position, there are not so tiny cracks between the door and the door hinges which allows to see the speedometer (This is true for the Redbirds, The R32s and the R38s). That's how I keep tabs on my speeds. Then on the R62/R62As you have the old 30's club style window that you can see the Speedometer as big as day. On the R46 & R68A's if the T/O has his door cracked, you can see the speedometer! The only trains hard to see are the R40, R40M, R42, R44s, R68s, & R142s.
Learn the tricks, you'll learn and find out alot!
Regards,
Trevor logan
What makes you think that this reading was accurate?
Its as accurate as its gonna get! Anymore negativities?
Trevor Logan
The R32's were not originally equipped with a speedometer. I believe the R32's were retrofitted with a speedometer manufactured by the Edo Corp. that uses Doppler sonar as opposed to the more common practice of using a shaft pickup. Is that correct?
From the redbirds all the way up to the R-42 class cars were ALL retofits, but my question is how does that make the readings invalid?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
There are many error sources for Doppler Sonar sensors. On the input side, interference, possibly from a second echo, can produce unpredictable results. The don't know how their discriminator circuit works but analog components, including crystal controlled oscillators, are known to age. Finally, the Edo readout is heavilly damped. It will usually read a few mph for several seconds, after it has stopped in a station. Given this knowledge of the sensor's shortcomings and given the fact that this reading occurred in a tunnel that was protected by grade timers for 30 or 40 mph makes me very suspicious of any claim of 62 mph.
It has been exceedingly difficult for a rail fan to get an independent measure of train speed, since the TA removed the 1/2 mile markers from the ROW. I did make my own measurements while on various lines and equipment (from LV's, AB's through R36's) when these markers were around. It was rare to exceed 40 mph over a 1/2 mile. The best reading I ever heard of was 53 mph on an R10 on the Rockaway line.
This is not the first time of a over speed in that tunnel, I've had a R46 do 57, had a R68A do about 54.
So if you have a good T/O who knows how to work the timers, it can be done. Haphazardly I know the secrects to speed through timers!
Believe it or not, its VERY simple to do! Would you like to know?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Yes, Trevor. I would like to know how to work the timers.
All NYCT trains except the R-46 & R-68 use doppler speed sensors. The refresh rate is supposed to be 100ms. This is so at max. acc. all numbers will be counted. It's still pretty easy to determine the speed without the speedometer. Just time your travel between any two signals and compute the speed.
It's still pretty easy to determine the speed without the speedometer. Just time your travel between any two signals and compute the speed.
The front markings on the signals show only 100's of feet. This means there is a potential error of 198 feet. That's a fairly high percentage error with the signlas placed 1200 feet apart.
Ideal! Better to pee out a window and feel the feedback. Peter
53MPH for an R38 in Cranberry-Tube, lead motor was #4008. You could really feel it.
wayne
Same for a Kawasaki R-62 in the Tubes between Borough Hall and Bowling Green, though I have expeirenced quicker on other parts of the Lexington Line, especially between 86th and 125th heading uptown before they recently put those timers in.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
At 77,000 LBS, the R-38 is the lightest of the division cars. I suspect that it is that which you feel and not necessarilly the speed.
Maybe so, but I was watching through the crack in the T/Os door (and subway-buff was with me) as she ratcheted it up from fast to faster and finally she wrapped it round the post (no fear at all, mind you, NOR any pesky "C"s ahead of us) and we were off for an ear-popper. When we arrived at Jay, I thanked her for a wonderful ride - she said proudly that she had hit the 53MPH mark. Amazing ride.
wayne
Mind if I ask what date that happened?
Wow southbound in the Cranberry tubes.
Must have been a bits ago. The second timer is not as bad as it was when I came out but it is still not like before July.
OK...now you get feedback from an NYCTA car inspector. The Doppler speedometers are made by EDO. Remember them??? they made ocean floats for seaplanes from the thirties on. If you think the mech is state of the art, fawgetaboutit!!! It's not certifiable accuracy...just an indication of approximate motion. The system is not connected to anything but the display...even R142s have it. There is a box undercar..we have to check and clean it. The test: wave your hand before it to see if the speed display changes. I open up the L/H crew door on R142s and the motormans door to see the display, wave my foot under the dopler transponder...if the display changes, it passes. Crapass science...I'm licensed to service shipboard radar. Better to spit or pee out the window with a stopwatch. Still 'in the hole,' Peter
The test: wave your hand before it to see if the speed display changes
I would not have expected anything more from the TA. The old adage "when in doubt ship it out" still applies. :-)
The Doppler speedometers are made by EDO. Remember them??? they made ocean floats for seaplanes from the thirties on.
Edo also made underwater sonar equipment. They used to be located in College Pt. They went bankrupt a few years ago were reorganized and moved to Babylon. I don't believe the reorganized company does any more manufacturing.
The system is not connected to anything but the display...even R142s have it.
I can understand why something that does not have to connect to anything else would be attractive as a retrofit. However, there are too many inherent inaccuracies for sonar doppler (as opposed to radar doppler). For example, the doppler shift varies inversely with the speed of sound. The speed of sound in air varies with temperature. The variation over the nominal temperature range of 100 degrees F is 10%. It means that the measurement circuitry needs temperature compensation for any kind of accuracy.
It's not as if there were no competing technologies. The usual method is to use a magnetic or optical pickup on a rotating axle. It's pretty cheap and very accurate. The retrofit would mean painting contrasting colors or gluing small magnets on the axle. The only systematic error would be variations in wheel diameter. If they were really desparate there are pickups which work directly off the gear teeth.
I'm really surprised that they are using this technology on the R142's. They are already getting the motor rpm's from the closed loop control. The car speed reading is free.
"The only systematic error would be variations in wheel diameter."
And even that can't be very much. While on the 207 St shop tour, we were told the exact allowable variation in wheel size before wheel replacement was mandated - I don't recall it at the moment...
Welcome back to Subtalk, by the way. Didn't get a chance to tell you sooner...
First of all, you are listening to a person with very little experience in the TA and with a severe case of 'loose jaw hinge' coupled with a profound need to engage his mouth before his mind is in gear. The correct procedure is to hold a calibrated tuning fork in front of the dopplar sensor. If it is being done any other way, this person can be held accountable along with his supervisor.
Second, the R-46 and R-68 utilize a magnetic pickup that counts the teeth on the bull gear in the #1 gear case. They are the only cars where the accuracy is dependent on the size of the wheel. Provision for re-calibration is made on every inspection cycle.
I'm grateful for the information regarding the TA's by the book test for the Doppler speedometers. While I don't expect the TA to use an NIST traceable calibration procedure, there appear to be some unanswered questions regarding the procedure you outlined.
The Doppler shift is proportional to fv/c, where f is the frequency of the source signal, v is the velocity of the train and c is the speed of the wave. The source frequency is usually set as the resonance of a crystal transducer. This does not vary much with age. They are using sound for measurement, so c is the velocity of sound in air. The velocity of sound in air is not a constant. It depends on the air density which depends on its temperature. At nominal atmospheric pressure the speed of sound is: 331 + 0.6T m/sec; where T is the temperature measured in °C. So for a temperature range of 0-120°F, the speed of sound varies from 320 - 360 m/sec or 716 - 805 mph. That's a variation of ą6% around the midpoint. I'd be willing to bet that there are not very many wheels running that are 6% off their nominal diameter - at least not according to the TA's maintenance manual. I don't see how the tuning fork test accounts for this variability, do you?
We're talking about apples and oranges. The test for the dopplar system uses the tuning fork. For the other system, the inspectors gauge the wheels and then set the speedometer to one of three settings. Not very precise but the actual error works out to less than 2%.
TrainDude: you're right that I have a big mouth and probably would be better witholding....but I ask and learn. There are a few of us that have long extensive backgrounds outside of TA...and we question what we're shown/told/taught. The paperwork for Doppler Test says 'wave test.' I asked: wave your hand in front of the sensor. New procedure for R142 inspection is duct tape on doors. I asked: someone left two doors open (easier to use safety wire in latches.) New test for R142 doors: stick your foot between doors and jog em. This goes on and on along with the 'runarounds.' What TA needs is guys like you to go about and point out the mistakes and correct them. I'm at the bottom and my suggestions don't go very far....status quo seems to be the G.O. Maybe you've been trying to get things right for a long time but the best thing to do is to push guys like me that are bright and new and shiny still. Always all the best, Peter
... the actual error works out to less than 2%.
Is that 2% of the reading of 2% of full scale?
2% of the balancing speed or about 1 MPH.
2% of the balancing speed or about 1 MPH.
I find it hard to believe that the specification for a device that is not connected to the operational mechanics of the car would be pegged to an operational parameter. Did these specs come from EDO, the speedometer manufacturer, or the TA? I could understatnd that the tuning fork would be to a nominal 50 mph and to pass the TA's calibration test a reading of 49-51 should be expected.
However, that is not the question I asked and I'd be curious at what the manufacturer promised. Also, I'd want to know any qualifications on the accuracy, such as operating temperature and pressure. It is not uncommon for accuracy of measuring instruments in air to be rated at standard temperature and pressure (STP) or 70°F and 1 atm. Accuray is derated for deviations from this ideal, usually in the fine print.
I'm not sure what the question is that you are asking. To explain my answer, on the R-46 to test the accuracy of the unit, I would inject a signal from an oscillator. The frequency used should give me a speed reading of 50 MPH with the speedometer calibration set for 33" wheel. If I move the adjustment to 34" or 32", the reading changes by +/- 1 MPH. If you are asking what the accuracy spec. was on the dopplar units, I can't say but that would have been demanded by the authority and agreed to by the vendor.
I'm questioning the accuracy of only the Doppler units.
I have no knowledge of what the specifications were as stated in the contract. However, that accuracy requirement would have been specified by the NYCT and agreed to by Edo.
Don't be so suspicious as to the speed in the 60th Street Tube. It's the fastest stretch in the system. On another note, it's not just the 32's that gain this type of speed.
I've done 62 mph on a R32, 68 and an R40 slant, and I've done 63 on a 68A (take that hippo haters). Let me tell you that the 40 slant was shimmying so much I thought the walls were gonna come apart.
And those EDO speedometers on SMEE trains aren't always the most accurate. I've done 73 mph on a 32!........................................in the station with the doors open.
The Edo units, if not precisely aimed will read fluorescent, neon and sodium lamps in the street below. R-62 waiting for wheel truing have read 15 MPH standing still over the inspection pit.
But my favorite, as I've mentioned before, was the on a set of R62As. The speedometer worked perfectly...backward. If I was standing still, it read 99; as I accelerated, the display would slow down accordingly.
That and the speedometer on a 32 that gave only odd numbered readings. When stopped, it'd say 1 mph then 3, 5, 7, 9......
Hahaha, so what do you guys depend on when you approach timers?
A good train operator depends on his feel of the train. Timers have been around a lot longer that there have been speedometers in the cabs.
A good train operator depends on his feel of the train. Timers have been around a lot longer that there have been speedometers in the cabs.
From the National Transportation Safety Board:
"The Safety Board investigated a rear-end collision on March 10, 1989, between two NYCT trains at the 103rd Street station in which 3 crewmembers and 38 passengers were injured. The estimated damage was $360,000. After its investigation, the Safety Board determined that contributing to the severity of the accident was the operation of train 428 into the 103rd Street station at a speed in excess of the posted speed, in part as a result of the failure of the NYCT management to furnish a reasonable means for operators to determine speed. The Safety Board issued Safety Recommendation R-90-2 urging the NYCT to provide speed indicators on each car in service on the system to allow operators the ability to properly determine speed."
Yes but I did say a "good" train operator. The recommendation may have just been part of some beartocrat's personal agenda. I believe the Williamsburg Bridge incident was post-speedometer installation as was Steinway Street and Fordham Rd. There is no substitute for having your train under control....
Yes but I did say a "good" train operator. The recommendation may have just been part of some beartocrat's personal agenda.
"good" for what? :-)
The NTSB was not very complimentary about the TA's training and evaluation policies that would insure that TO's would be able to determine their speed without a speedometer.
I believe the Williamsburg Bridge incident was post-speedometer installation...
From the NTSB:
"Shortly after the Williamsburg Bridge accident, an NYCT official testified that the NYCT hoped to have speedometers installed on 'all but the car type [the Redbird] we will be retiring,' or 4,600 of the 5,800 cars in its fleet by the end of 1996, and that new cars being purchased had speedometers and event recorders."
The NTSB report did not indicate whether or not the car involved had been retrofitted. However, the operator's ability to judge speed was not implicated in the accident, the ability of the signals and braking systems to stop the train from its maximum attainable speed was.
There is no substitute for having your train under control....
Which would you consider the more challenging task: determining which side a platform is present when the train has stopped or controlling train speed?
I would have asssumed controlling train speed to be the more challenging. However, the TA is now requiring 2 people to determine which side the platform is located but only 1 person to cotrol the train's speed.
You raise an interesting point here ... guess who's ultimately responsible for the safety of the train? The CONDUCTOR! The door enablers introduce an interesting piece to the equation since it is the CONDUCTOR who is technically responsible and not the motorman. The motorman on the other hand is responsible for the safe operation of the train itself. The introduction of the enablers did away with the conductor's responsibility by making the motorman responsible for which side is opened, so theoretically they could very well provide a means for the conductor to monitor the performance of the motorman.
Because of the responsibility of the conductor for the safety of the passengers, the emergency cord was provided for the conductor to stop the train ... perhaps the conductor will be issued a speedo to yank the cord if the train goes too fast. Interesting possibilities of job responsibility here since TWU went for the enablers apparently in the first place by allowing it to proceed. But you raise a very interesting point that'll raise the anguish level here by a bit.
Interesting possibilities of job responsibility here since TWU went for the enablers
The TWU's motives are not too difficult to discern. The TA is in essence stating that two people are required to operate the doors safely. Bye bye OPTO.
Heh. I don't see OPTO going anywhere - management likes the idea and was willing to pay a premium to keep local 100 quiet. :)
I don't agree with the door enabler system being installed on any NYCT cars. My feeling is that once you shift the responsibility from humans to an electro-mechanical system, the burden shifts from RTO to DCE. Hence, any doors open on the wrong side is now a car equipment charge.
The days of the "good" train operator are numbered.
RTO question: if a train lacks a functional speedometer, can it
leave the terminal in service? What about if it breaks on the road?
Yes. I've gone down the road many times without a functioning speedometer in my cab (and still managed to get to the other end on time and without hitting any timers).
And now a question for you - how the blazes would I know that the speedometer isn't working before leaving the station (discounting the obvious "it ain't lit up" answer)?
And I still ask the question, "What was there before the EDO speedometer?" The answer is 'operator skill and trips.' Peter
"What was there before the EDO speedometer?" The answer is 'operator skill and trips.
And as Mr. SelkirkTMO observed, an audible sound caused by the gear train that whose frequency was proportional to running speed.
True, but bear in mind that those cars vanished in the 1970's. For about 20 years, it must have been a hell of a dice roll to get on a subway car before we were "saved" by the magic 8 ball on the console. :)
Other than the unit being dark or giving an absurd non-zero reading
with the train stationary, there would be no way to know.
So, the speedometer is obviously not considered a safety-critical
component if trains can operate in service without them. What
is the point in having them then? Are they "training wheels"
to accustom train operators to judging speed in real-world track?
I gotta go with Dude on this one. I very rarely look at the speedometer when I am operating on lines that I know, much the same as I don't watch the air gauge when braking. When I get thrown to a line I don't know very well, then I watch the speedometer through GT areas until I get a feel for how the timers work.
Burrocrats ... no doubt there may have been an operator in the incident you described who didn't belong in a cab, but speedos aren't exactly what I would call a critical substitution for judgement either, and I don't see how a speedo would compensate for a bad operator either.
Perhaps the feds would prefer that subway cars be equipped with cruise control. How's about it, T/O's? :)
They might bring that back too. It was on the original 44's.
Heh. I heard ... maybe they can put motorcycle cops in the tunnels with the old German tri-wheel attachments on them to chase errant trains and pull them over and issue tickets. ;)
Thanks for putting that out there ... there seems to be a mentality that instrumentation is everything and when I did it however briefly, the one thing we all knew out on the rails was how fast we were going by the metal flying by and a general feel for the railroad and our equipment rather than the needles on the dials. Air gauges told fibs also, so you went by the feel of the grab on braking as well. A good operator could do it blindfolded except for hitting the mark and there were some that had been on a pick so long, they could probably hit the mark at each platform blindfolded as well.
I was thinking on a bit more about this topic since I posted this and it's occurring to me after thinking of my couple of days with the R32's instead of my beloved R9's that things have changed a LOT since my day and perhaps I wasn't really thinking about how things have changed.
"Steve 8th Ave" is always fond of describing the prewar cars as "A above C" and so on, and while I'm not so musical as to relegate it to a note, those of us who piloted the prewar cars had a HELL of an advantage in retrospect over those operating the newer cars ... the old cars had the gearing at all times and you COULD tell by the precise PITCH of the gearing what speed you were running at (even in coast) that I remember now was kinda hard to tell in the 32's that I had forgotten about after all these years ...
I remember several times on my runs on 32's that I was just BARELY clearing the timers because I was running a bit too fast, whereas in the R9's it was a lazy ride since I could tell by both the steel and the sound of the gears what speed I was running at. Most importantly on downgrades, I could hear when I was picking up a bit too much speed coasting downhill and could give her a minibrake to bring it back down to speed again that was absent on the 32's ...
So I imagine nowadays with phase and frequency shifts from AC traction and "hush cabs" (we used to operate with a window down most of the year) that all of those physical realities of the older cars are completely absent in the newer fleet ... I hadn't given this much thought but I'm realizing I've been unfairly tough on the folks on the railroad these days since there isn't all those things that we all took for granted back in my days as a clue to "how am I doing?" on the rails today.
But that's why we didn't need no steenking gauges back in my own day ...
A very perceptive observation.
So, what you are saying, is that the old equipment DID have a speedometer with an audio output reading. This speedometer used axle rotation speed which was probably more accurate than EDO's sonar units.
One problem is that riding with the cab window open probably caused permanent hearing loss. In addition to today's quieter cabs, TO's are given ear muffs to further cut down ambient noise.
Thank ya and yes, in the most unscientific way, we did indeed have a "feedback loop" aurally as to what we were doing on the rails. You could also hear the air through the valves to know when you were going to get application as well. And yes, my hearing isn't what it used to be but I suspect that had more to do with being a rock and roll roadie for a while and doing so much broadcast work with headclamps over my ears.
Nonetheless, the one thing that made me absolutely crazy in the cab of the mighty diesels (especially the newer diesels like SD80-MACs and the like) is that you hear NOTHING in there compared to older equipment ... sure you hear the motor in back but its noises have more to do with power demand at any given moment than traction and the ride in the cab is SO smooth, you can't feel railjoints and such. You're literally relegated to looking at meaningless numbers flashing on your console rather than a "feel" for what you're doing.
Modern subway cars are probably a similar experience where you don't get any real feedback as to what you're doing. And I second the opinion that numbers on a speedo don't tell you squat either. Your eyes are SUPPOSED to be focused AHEAD, not at your console when running. So about the only REAL clue you would have today is solely visual ... you can STILL tell how fast you're going with a little bit of experience at knowing how fast the steel beams are blowing past you - that one factor never changed ...
And I second the opinion that numbers on a speedo don't tell you squat either. Your eyes are SUPPOSED to be focused AHEAD, not at your console when running. So about the only REAL clue you would have today is solely visual ...
The speedometer need not have solely a numeric output. It could drive a variable pitch audio oscillator that was fed into headphones. It would be an interesting test to see if its presence made any difference in T/O proficiency. I'd think that simulator tests should be very fairly easy to set up and evaluate.
OTOH, if the LCD goggles come down in price, they could force the T/O to read the dials while still looking straight ahead.
you can STILL tell how fast you're going with a little bit of experience at knowing how fast the steel beams are blowing past you - that one factor never changed ...
Not all of the system has steel columns. The beams are not uniformly spaced between the sections that have them. You really need a consistent and universal standard for it to be useful.
Heads-up display and joystick control on subway cars. Gotta love it. perhaps a gun turret too. :)
Yeah, there are variations but if we have so little faith in the ability of bipeds to operate subway cars, perhaps it's time to look into hiring robots. Sorry for the comment but it really isn't all that difficult to operate a train safely and properly. It requires some attention, some hand-eye coordination and I have faith that 99.99% of all those currently in the job are more than qualified to operate safely.
If the discussion is about safety equipment, perhaps the most USEFUL thing to add to a cab might be an "operator asleep" detector. I'd bet soup to nuts that most of the accidents that have occurred in the last 30 years are the result of someone dozing off in the cab or dropping dead. A speedo ain't gonna solve that.
Since I've taken this off tangent with some humor, renamed the header so as to not cheese anyone off ...
It occurred to me that there's a cheap and simple cost effective means that would permit the aural indication with a degree of accuracy us old timers enjoyed when operating the prewar fleet that will obsolete the need for those less than optimum speedometers.
I propose that we retrofit all existing rolling stock as the trucks are rebuilt - since the wheels are usually about 33 inches in diameter and bicycle wheels are usually somewhere in the vicinity of 24 inches in diameter that a bicycle wheel be packed onto the axle and that a strut be mounted under the car.
With this mechanical arrangement, playing cards could be mounted to the strut with clothespins providing a motorcycle-like sound proportionate to speed that would allow the motorperson to gauge their speed by the sound ... this could be done at SMS time along with the installation of the gun turrets. Perhaps a microphone can be placed under the car if the playing cards cannot be easily heard inside the cab.
Howzabout it?
The problem that I see with that approach is that at 50 mph the frequency of the sound would be only 305 Hz and proportionately less at lower speeds. The purpose is to make something useful for approaching grad timers at 20-30 mph. People really don't have much auditory acuity in the 120 Hz range.
At 50 MPH, if you had enough spokes on the bicycle wheel, you should be up in the KiloHertz range by 30 MPH ... anyone who's done the motorcycle sound with their bike knows the technology well. :)
Don't mind me though, I'm one of those who has a seriousness cutout that's well calibrated and lubricated.
At 50 MPH, if you had enough spokes on the bicycle wheel
The standard bicycle wheel has 36 spokes. There are some 48 spoke wheels that are used on tandems but these require 26" or 27" wheels and large flange hubs. Both the rims and the hubs are exceedingly difficult to obtain.
Geez, guy ... I'm just TEASING ... come on ... go along with the gag ... we can build on this preposterous theory and have some fun with it. After the creation of detailed specifications and the municipal bidding process, we could end up with an UBERbike that Heypaul would be proud of. :)
I have an even better idea. Retrofit the fleet with spur-cut bull and pinion gears. Presto! Instant gear pitch varying with speed. Music to my ears.:-)
I had a feeling you'd spot that message ... it's funny though - running them so often throughout my brief career, it wasn't until just a day or two ago that it occurred to me that subway cars don't make those noises anymore. Sure made operating a piece of cake though. When you'd apply power or coast, the only change was in the LOUDNESS of the pitch. Until you changed speed of course ... rrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrr ...
Did you catch my post a few weeks back about the weird dream I had involving a prewar D train?
You could always tell when power was reapplied to a coasting train. The gears would just sing out. I just wish I had ridden on the oldtimers more often on express jaunts.
I vaguely remember the message but forget the specifics. One problem around here is trying to go back and find a specific message, and knowing what it would take to render a text search engine for here and its mammoth CPU requirements, can understand why it's not practical. Would love to have a refresh on the dream though - it'd funny. After ALL these years, I still dream every now and then of my days back with the "ta" (some fond memories, some really bitter) and it only reminds me again and again how much I *loved* the old cars. They had soul.
Amen to the 'operator asleep' control. The 'big trains' have different ways to call up the T/Os attention...fail to push the button or some other required response brings about emergency stop. I feel that the 'deadman handle' in the R142 is about the worst cuz it's easy to hold and someone of the right 'dimensions' falling on it just might keep the train in motion. As for the EDO speedometer, I asked: propulsion guys do the 'hand wave test' as it is fast and "just as accurate" as the tuning fork which is used only when calibration is required. As for where one is in my shop??? I think too much is being read into this...the gauge is a relative measure of speed and the only important measurement is the tach windings in each propulsion motor of the R142 (which is supposed to enable the train computers to determine speed, braking and traction control.) Go too fast and you'll find a trip or worse. Peter
propulsion guys do the 'hand wave test' as it is fast and "just as accurate" as the tuning fork which is used only when calibration is required
Translation: If the mean time to collision (mttc) is significantly less than mean time to retirement (mttr) - who'll find out?
the gauge is a relative measure of speed and the only important measurement is the tach windings in each propulsion motor of the R142
They could have had a direct readout from the computer. This would have saved them some money and given them some accuracy.
What was there in the subways before the EDO gauge?? I used to race a motorcycle only with a tach! As for a direct readout from the computer, there must be a specific reason why TA doesn't have it on the display even though it should be far more accurate that a Doppler 'audio' (not RF) radar aimed at the tracks (I have no idea what the reflection bounces off...it aint shipboard!) What I can say is that theres a lot of stuff on the display and isn't it more important for the T/O to pay attention to the tracks ahead than trying to clock a train for speed?? Peter
Oscillators and LCD goggles......the R142 cab is soooo quiet with the windows closed. Better the T/O should listen to the ringing in his/her ears and plug a microwave into the service outlet and make popcorn! I'd like to know what the Doppler references motion against. A 'heads up' display might be nice but again, the most important thing is what's ahead and not the speed reading. Peter
I'd like to know what the Doppler references motion against
There is an apparant shift in frequency of a wave when the observer and the source are moving relative to one another. The frequency shift is proportional to the ratio of this relative velocity divided by the velocity of the wave. So, the Doppler reference is the velocity of sound.
Unfortunately, the velocity of sound varies based on the density of the medium in which it is travelling. The normal seasonal variations caused by ambient temperature is enough to vary the speed of sound by 6% around a reference temperature of 60°F.
Thanks...so if I understand this, it is not the fixed target underneath but the actual Doppler shift the 'rocks inside' pick up. Peter
Pete ... on one of your breaks, put a neon or flourescent driven from 60 Hz AC in front of it and have someone read ya the speed while the car is up on horses so we can be sure there's no cheating in the reading because the car's in motion. If it's up on blocks when you drop an AC-powered lamp out there, it should read 0. Betcha it won't.
Why do you think that is? Just 60Hz overload on the acoustic
sensors? Do we in fact know for a fact that these units are
using sound, not radar?
I have no idea ... all I know is that some folks have told me privately that if a train comes to a stop and there's merc vapors or other fluorescent lights, the speedo will claim overspeed on the train while stopped at a station. I was sorta looking for someone to verify it since I'm too far north of NYC to pack up a strobe, use a church key and break into a cab just to verify it for myself.
But I've heard that the "device" is sensitive to strobing lights.
Bauman thinks that the EDO units are sonar. Have we
confirmed or refuted that? I always figured they were
radar. Isn't a tuning fork used to calibrate police radar guns?
They are radar.
Thanx...I'll bring my fl. droplight in and try it. I understand the explanation given (I am a radar tech too) but isn't this box (metal or plastic...cleaned a Redbird one today) aimed DOWN at the tracks so what does it measure against: ties or rocks? Peter
Damned if I know, but I think even Train Dude sorta confirmed what I had heard - that sodium vapor lights under an "L" are enough to make it provide high speed readings after going BIE. One has to be amused at that. As to what it's reading, maybe it's high tech and is counting nitrogen molecules. I'm sure somebody downtown would believe that. :P
You shudda have seen the sups eyes pop out when I asked where the calibration gauge is. Hand Wave, Peter.
Now now ... let's not be working "out of title" to satisfy my whims here. :)
No, the oldtimers did not have speedometers. What they did have was spur-cut bull and pinion gears, whose teeth are cut straight across. Cheaper to manufacture, but noisy and very musical on subway trains. Most automobiles with manual transmissions have spur-cut reverse gears, which is why you hear a loud hum when backing up. The R-10s introduced helical-cut gears, whose teeth are cut diagonally across. More expensive to manufacture but much quieter. The forward speeds in a manual transmission also have helical-cut gears.
Is that the one where the door chimes go "dong-ding"?
wayne
Sure ... I'll go for it ... cross-wired with the thermostat. :)
The reading is supposed to have a + or - 2 MPH leeway. In any event, unless it displays 0 all the time or shoots up past 99 as you brake for a timer (both common occurrences with broken ones) the thing is accurate enough.
I've seen some (on R-62A's) that lag a second or two. The train will come to a full stop but the speedometer will report that the train is still traveling at 4 mph (rapidly decelerating to 0).
Digital speedometers on certain cars (Ford Crown Victoria, for example) do that too.
"Faith Restored in R-32"
I don't think the faith in R-32s were restored. I believe they were there since day one. Even in the days of graffitti and deferred maintenance the R-32s plyed the rails faithfully.
When was the last time we heard of the R-32s being "lemons" like other fleets ? The stainless steel body's longevity will attest to the fleet being retired in the distant future instead of the near future. We can't say that about the R-38s and R-40s with their steel roofs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well I was never a real big R-32 fan, I like My R-46s and all my Kawasaki Children (R62, R68A, R110A, R142A, R143).
So for me this is a new thing to like R-32s.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
"So for me this is a new thing to like R-32s"
There's always a first time !
R-32 fever.........catch it !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I caught it on July 21, 1965 and still have it.:-)
I caught in in 1964 when they were testing them on the Sea Beach middle tracks. Been hooked ever since. BTW, BMT Standards were running on the Sea Beach while I was watching the testing for a few hours.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll bet you were dying to ride on them right then and there. Did you look at those BMT standards and say, "Eeeewwwwww!" after that? That's how I felt the first time I saw them.
Yet in August I was watching the R143s on an R32 The 32s are turning 40 soon(4 years) the only other car in service now which will reach this age is?
The remaining R-26/28s already have passed their 40th birthday, while the R-29s are going to make it to 40 next year, unless the reliability of the R-142s on the No. 2 line picks up in a hurry.
Several other cars have made it to the 40 year mark in the past. The GOHed R-10s did and the last of the BMT Standards did on the B Division, while the Low Vs and the High Vs did on the A Division. I believe a few of the R-7s also hit 40 (or maybe just 39) before they were retired, and of course, the rebuilt been-everywhere-done-everything Q cars made it past their 60th birthday, which I guess will be the mark the R-32s will have to shoot for in 2024-26.
Continue to expect reliable service from all of the steel bodies (Redbirds) for some time to come. They might not be the most attractive form of transportation but they meet shedules every day. Peter
The Qs don't count in my book because they were el cars and not subway cars. Even so, the last ones hung around for 68 years.
The average BMT standard lasted 47 years. Very few of them made it to 50 years on an individual basis; IIRC the museum trio 2390-91-92 did so.
The Gibbs Hi-Vs are the current champs. All of them made it to 50 years.
I was thinking of the R46
From one Bill to another Bill, AMEN!
From what am told by my dad at one time the old BMT did not hire Jews. He was tell me about the time he rode the old Myrtle Ave Gate Cars and his Uncle was working as one of the gatekeepers. When my father saw him the uncle made beleive that he did know him. He also had his last name change too to get the job as he orignal name was Jewish. Does anyone knows more about the Discrimination the BMT had.
To put this in context, it was common practice in many businesses to favor or discriminate on the basis of ethnicity until well after World War II. The patterns of discrimination were, in general, not what you would think of today, where specific groups were uniformly the "ins" and others the "outs," though, in NYC in toto, Blacks, Jews, Italians and Irish were more likely to be "outs" than some other groups.
As one example, Irish were likely to be "outs" at the turn of the last century in many jobs, but (among other jobs) some railroad companies, notably the IRT and the Pennsy RR were supposed to favor them.
Even in particular companies, some would readily hire, for example, Jewish men, for positions of responsibility up to high middle management, but never to the executive level, what we nowadays call a "glass ceiling."
I'm giving these examples not to say that the BMT did or did not discriminate against Jews (or other groups) but that AFAIK, any discrimination the company did practice would not have been notable or unusual for its time, so that you could make the statement that "the BMT was a biased company" with the implication that the IRT, or New York Railways, or other companies were not.
The IND was the exception rather than the rule, in that operator personnel were hired by civil service, so that the IND had many black motormen and the other railways did not.
>>> To put this in context, it was common practice in many businesses to favor or discriminate on the basis of ethnicity until well after World War II. <<<
I think it is fair to say that discrimination was common right up until the civil rights movement of the 1960's. I was working for a Fortune 400 nationwide corporation that would not hire blacks for any job which interacted with the public until the Chairman of the Board announced an affirmative action program in 1964.
In pre WW II days, overt anti Semitism was quite common in the United States, and since there were no anti discrimination laws in hiring, companies such as the BMT would make no effort to hire minorities, and any prejudice of the person who did the hiring would be reflected in those hired, or more significantly those not hired.
Tom
[I think it is fair to say that discrimination was common right up until the civil rights movement of the 1960's.
I saw it first hand myself. In 1964, when I was 15, my family drove down to Florida by car. I couldn't believe it when I saw that many of the gas stations down south had 3 bathrooms: "Men", "Women" and "Colored". It sticks in my mind to this day.
When I was stationed in MARYLAND, 1968, they still had signs advertising "Colored Cabins."
You went by car down south in 1964 and you didn't get pulled over in Georgia with New York plates? Musta been your lucky day.
Bob, was that also your first encounter with 'grits'? (what's a grit anyway...;-D
BMTman
I've been told that grits are the little hard bits at the base of a corn kernel.
Two of my less cherished memories of the South were grits and hush puppies. One story goes that hush puppies (yet another variation on fried dough) were so named because they were tossed to quiet begging dogs. I have to assume they quiet the dogs by hitting them in the head. Where's PETA when you need them?
Heh. Well, recently went down SOOTH and had grits for the first time in nearly 50 years ... I have to admit that they're not bad with butter and salt stirred in but without, they have less flavor than Colonel Sander's wallpaper paste ... hush puppies on the other hand are pretty damned good - used to get a facsimile of them regularly at Arthur Trenchmouth's is it really fish places but having the real thing down in Charlotte was an actual treat. There's a place down there on route 77 at exit 16B called "Bubba's Barbecue" which I *HIGHLY* recommend if you're ever down there on Sunset Rd.
Bubba spotted us Noo Yawkahs and tried to tell us the tale of the "grits plantation" down the road where we could shake the grits trees and have our pictures taken. Heh. But grits are perhaps the most flavorless thing I've eaten in a LONG time - makes tofu seem almost yummy. Try to go to a Waffle House and NOT get grits with yer omelette though - you can see the rope marks on the trees from those who dared to refuse their grits. :)
...but having the real thing down in Charlotte was an actual treat. There's a place down there on route 77 at exit 16B called "Bubba's Barbecue" which I *HIGHLY* recommend if you're ever down there on Sunset Rd.
Charlotte? That may be North Carolina, but that's not real food over there... they think that hush puppies should be made with pure yellow corn instead of a mix of yellow and white and they don't put onions in them. Even worse, what they call "barbecue" is sliced, and has tomato sauce in it... everyone knows that the only real barbecue is what they make Down East, cooked over a slow fire and served chopped, with a vinegar and hot pepper sauce. Bill's Barbecue in Wilson is the best restaurant barbecue that I've run across, but nothing beats the Bunn Fire Department's 'cue nor the Zebulon Shrine Club's hush puppies.
As for grits, I'm too full from dinner for any right now, but maybe I'll make a small pot later for my evening snack... lots of butter, with a dash of Texas Pete for good measure and a side of fresh biscuits and homemade jam :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grits? In Waffle Hut, grits am be free.
You GOTTA do Bubba's then ... go to http://www.bubbasbarbecue.com/ and have a gander ... he does "eastern style." I DO know the difference which is why I *highly* recommend the place.
Thanks, Kevin... although I don't keep strictly kosher I haven't eaten pork in many years... but if he makes eastern 'cue then he probably has good chicken 'cue as well. I haven't been in Charlotte in a number of years even though my folks live just up the road in Concord but I'll keep that place in mind next time I do go over there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Forgot about the pork thing ... but if you want to go treyf, it SURE is worth it ... heh. The chicken is pretty good too though we went for the Barbecue. What's fantastic about the place (besides the overly sweet bottomless glass of ice tea) is that the pork is served DRY, overflowing the bun and the sauce is on the table. You can go straight to the hot or the traditional (he sells the sauce, it's that good - took some home) but the SLAW is fantastic. (to fellow northerners, "slaw" down yonder is NOT the crap that comes with MickeyD's - it's QUITE delicious)
The puppies are great as well ... definitely do it if you get the chance. Bubba's a fun guy too ...
I was on a Manhattan bound Q train the other day, wish I had my camera to take a picture.
One whole side of the train had nothing but ads for "Pork, the other white meat", and all these reasons to eat pork.
....the train was full of Hasidic Jews!
Who plans the placement of these ads?
Heh. Could have been Lubavitchers. Advertising is a loco in the ditch these days - after all, there's still banner ads on web sites even though nobody EVER clicks on them. :)
I LOVE NC style barbecue. The first real southern style barbecue I ever had was at a place called Bubba's out on whatever you call the barrier beach island that Cape Hatteras is on. Shredded pork with NC vinegar sauce and great cole slaw. I don't imagine it's the same as your Charlotte place. But then ... there couldn't be more than one bubba in North Carolina, could there?
I suppose any local would tear me to pieces for saying this, but some Virginia barbecue seems very similar. Sometimes I buy a 5-lb. tub by mail order from Edwards. Not bad for my no'then taste.
Would that have been the Bubba's just south of Buxton on the road to the Ocracoke Ferry? It was on the right side of the road going south!
Yes, that's the one! I also loved those NC ferries.
I stopped there once some years ago because one of my passengers wanted to try their barbeque. I can't remember if I liked it or not.
The ferry ride between Hatteras and Ocracoke is great, and it is one of the few things in life that is still FREE!
Heh. Well, I'm born and raised in NY and although I've travelled away here and there over the years, always came back home. There's no place like NY. That all said, I'd imagine there's a Bubba every couple of yards down yonder but the one near Charlotte actually got the "bubbasbarbecue.com" domain name so he's brighter than your average bear and a hell of a great cook.
What was especially wonderful about the "slaw" (that Cole stuff is no'thun) is that it was some kind of greens that definitely included some lettuce but I don't know what else was in it (possibly scallions) and absolutely nothing cabbagy ... it was GREAT. The TEN HOURS in the smokehouse though definitely makes a hell of a difference that fast food joints just ain't gonna match.
It's actually worth the trip just to do that and come back. No joke.
Not to dump on our Apple, but one of my very few complaints with New York is that I can get great food of many nation's, even down to street vendors but the only really good Southern food I've ever gotten in the City is in the homes or church dinners of folks from the South (in my time, that meant mostly people who had come from Georgia and the Carolinas).
In fact, the best ham I had in my entire LIFE was made by the sax man for an R&B group. I was trying to think of ways to hide that ham under my coat and make off with it. I've never had ham that good again, and certainly not in New York. Sometimes I get ham from Edwards in VA or Burgers Smokehouse in the Ozarks with that good 12-month dried cure flavor. Luckily my blood pressure is still OK. :-)
Naw, I'd say the complaint is rather justified. Sad to say, the only authentic southern food you would find in the northeast was in the dining car on the old New Haven Railroad (amazing how this whips right back on topic however briefly) ... last time I had grits was on a run from Providence to DC back in the early 1960's ... never saw them in the Bronx and let's face it, the colonel was no son of the sooth. :)
I have many fine memories of those New Haven diners--still have a couple of the menus. I took a few dates on the 6:00 departure from Penn to Boston (the Patriot, I think it was(?)). We'd be getting our first course with a view of Manhattan on the Hell Gate Bridge route.
Don't remember the Southern food though. In fact, maybe I getting good Southern food on the diners and just didn't know it. I also like the dining car on the Atlantic Coast Line coming up from Joe-ja. The staff was real nice, too.
Years later when I did a stint at WBCN, the dining experience wasn't quite as good as it had been earlier. But it was amusing - headed towards beantown, there'd be chowder, fish dinner and of course Wienerschnitzel ... on the way south was when you would find southern type delicacies on the menu. Guess it was just a matter of which way you were going.
Then of course there was the Southern Crescent. Never could acquire a taste for blackened catfish. I hear Shrub has Putin sitting down for a chowdown on catfish tonight. Sure hope the nukes over in Russia are stowed. :)
Krushchev got to go to Disneyland. Putin gets to go to a dude ranch ... or maybe I should "gets to go to the ranch. Dude."
At least he'll go home with a saddle, instead of Mickey Mouse ears.
No horses, just jeeps to ride. And at least Disneyland has a TRAIN. :)
>>> Krushchev got to go to Disneyland. <<<
When was that? The one time I remember he could not go because of security concerns (at least that is what they told him).
Tom
>>> Krushchev got to go to Disneyland. <<<
When was that? The one time I remember he could not go because of security concerns (at least that is what they told him).
Actually, I think you're right. He made such a fuss about not going that I still have the image of him being there (lesson about trusting "oral history" kids).
In the context of the '50s (not all good times, pop culture notwithstanding), the image of a Soviet leader wanting to go to Disneyland was positively reassuring, after Stalin.
Sad to say, the only authentic southern food you would find in the northeast was in the dining car on the old New Haven Railroad
When my family moved to Louisville in 1955, my Dad asked around as to which was the best restaurant in the city. The overwhelming response was the dining car on the Louisville & Nashvilles Humming Bird (train to New Orleans).
Heh. It's a shame that a lot of folks never knew how good we had it in the days before Hamtrak's "Eagle snacks" dispenser. :)
I found the dining car food on the Capitol very good and the dining car food on the Lake Shore good. I haven't had the displeasure of sampling "Eagle snacks".
On NYS Empire Corridor ala Hamtrak, that's the First Class dining car. Heh. Yeah, Lakeshore is pretty good, done that. Same for the Montrealer. Haven't done the Capitol though. It's funny. I hear a lot of whining about the route of the pointless arrow here and I've NEVER had a bad ride. Sure we've sat here and there, but there's always the company of others to make you forget it. Then again, I know many on the crews who lay over at Rensselaer when they expire and they're good folks as long as you're not snotty to them. Maybe the east west routes are different.
But as good as some of the diners are, they're pale by comparison to the majesty of the dining cars of 30+ years ago.
Kind of fits in with the soft drink beverage situation in the mid-1960s, when the only place you could get Dr Pepper in New York City was the food stand on the Staten Island Ferry (well, I guess Staten Island is the southern part of New York...)
We had it in the Bronx (and lots of my buddies found it QUITE odd) ... then again, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, the Bronx does require a passport and an armed guard I s'pose ... But upstate, you can even find CHEERWINE soda ... no Waffle House though, yet. But we DOES has a Cracker Barrel. Heh.
Hey, they even used to have a Stuckey's in upstate New York, on I-81 at Cortland. I think it's now a more mundane Burger King (but then again, they make Schaefer in Longview, Texas now, so that just part of the homoginization of American culture)
Yeah, we brought home some Snuckey's crap ... "Saltwater taffy" was all we can find that DIDN'T have pecans in it and yeah, they're still shovelling out those coke machine banks too. We had the "Sam and Max" game where they were constantly finding clues at Stuckey's ... never saw one, had to do it for the curiosity factor. Highly overrated.
I was also quite surprised to see so many "North Carolina train" signs. Well, at least Jesse Helms brought home some choochoos with the pork. :)
Not to dump on our Apple, but... the only really good Southern food I've ever gotten in the City is in the homes or church dinners of folks from the South.
The late Charles Kuralt, himself a North Carolina native, recorded a video entitled "North Carolina Is My Home" with music composed by Loonis McGlohon (lyrics by Kuralt) that contained a song called "Barbecue Blues". It tells the story of a fellow dining in a fancy restaurant but not finding anything he really liked... wanting biscuits but having to settle for a croissant, for example. Also another song entitled "Dinner on the Grounds" about North Carolina's legendary church suppers. An excellent video that even Yankees would enjoy :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I think it is fair to say that discrimination was common right up until the civil rights movement of the 1960's.
I saw it first hand myself. In 1964, when I was 15, my family drove down to Florida by car. I couldn't believe it when I saw that many of the gas stations down south had 3 bathrooms: "Men", "Women" and "Colored". It sticks in my mind to this day.
From you're English it's difficult to believe that you actually were born (or live) in the USA.
Are you trolling?
Arti
His writing makes me believe that there could be no other country in which he was born other than the US. It's obvious he knows how to speak English, but not how to write it.
What do you think the writing level of the average American is?
Because of his odd capitalization of nouns, I was thinking of a native German speaker.
Arti
Hey the writer happens to be hearing impaired. How you have insulted me.
I don't follow.
Arti
ASL is a language that is missing pronouns and tenses as we know them among other things. So unless you attended a very rigorous deaf school, got mainstreamed or had tough parents most deaf write at a 6th to 8th grade level.
I didn't know that, then sorry.
Arti
In matter of fact I been through mainstream and college. My grandmother was one of the first people to cross the Williamsburgh Bridge when it first opened.
Did your grandmother cross by foot or trolley or el? The WB has always been a big "walking" bridge.
From what I heard she went over the bridge using a horse and a buggy. That all I can recall. So she was born in 1892 in Williamburgh. I was born 70 years later
Then your first two messages were on lack of sleep not being hearing impaired. I am dyslexic and make lots of typos but that posting topped me.
Count me in as shohked, English as a second language..
Arti
Add the C please...
Ashamed,
Arti
:-(
Well, that answers what I posted in message #280067.
To Gary: I must apologize for American Pig and Arti who feel it necessary to remark on things w/o first using their thought processes.
Speaking on behalf of all responsible SubTalkers, I apologize for the few who are 'quick on the keyboard'.
Best regards,
BMTman
Thanks BMTMan. I hope Arti and the American Pig learned a good lesson not to judge people on the basic of their writing.
Gary
How does a hearing impediment affect ones typing?
A hearing impaired person normally do not hear every word that is spoken therefore he does not pick up some of the words.
I wonder if the word "descrimination" was invented yet! It was just kind of tradition, that Irish men worked on the BMT during that era, just like Italians were "garbagemen". I am not stereotyping at all, that was just how it was and racial or ethical stuff was just not questioned in those days.
It was a little darker than "tradition," even in those days, but it was accepted as "the way things are." When you were looking for a job, you were more apt to turn to family, friends or your ethnic social club to find out where you had an "in" and you knew not to aspire to another kind of job where you would be "out." Likewise public accommodations.
A fairly good representation of this kind of casual social attitude was in the movie (1948?) "Gentleman's Agreement." The envelope was quite invisible, unless you pushed it.
I'm still struck by my memory of a bus driver friend (who was also a Baptist minister in Harlem) who was describing his trip to visit relatives in the south about 1960. He noted the shop signs in the local store windows saying "No Jews or Dogs." There was no reference to black people--they didn't need to be told.
the shop signs in the local store windows saying "No Jews or Dogs."
The last time I'd checked, there is still a sign "No bicycles or dogs permitted passed this point" at Jones Beach.
I didn't even know there was a significant wthnic enclave of bicycles in the area.
Yup, they remained, even during the epidemic of "bike flight" to the 'burbs in the 1970's.
Wasn't the IND one of the first to hire black motormen and conductors?
Yes, because the IND was civil service, which was race neutral.
...why don`t the TA rename the Rockaway A the H, run the C to Rockaway park, and on the Brighton Line, call the "Diamond" Q the X train. That should alleviate some confusion for the riders of these lines. Any other suggestions?
1. The Rockaway A runs 24/7, the Lefferts A doesn't, would you want the A to be a part time line?
2. Most people are too stupid to realize that both A and H are the same line in Manhattan and Brooklyn, just like with the 1 and 9. Do you know how many people at South Ferry and Cortland St passed up 9 trains for 1 trains simply because "we need the 1 to get to Times Square"? Also, both Lefferts and Rockaway lines have shared "A" since the Rockaways were bought from the LIRR in the 1950s.
3. Sending the C to Rockaway Park would be nice, but would require too much extra equipment and crews. The C runs every 10 minutes, the Rockaway As / shuttles every 16-20.
4. X isn't a good letter for trains. Picture an X in a yellow circle next to an arrow. What does that imply?
One thing I would like is more Rock Park - Manhattan service. The Manhattan departures should be ~4:PM, 4:20, 4:40, 5:00, 5:15, 5:30, 5:45, 6:00. That would add 3 more trains. In the AM, they should leave Rock Pk. at ~6:40, 7:00, 7:15, 7:30, 7:45, 8:00. This adds one more train.
I don't see anything wrong with using X. Now if you used three X's next to the arrow......
"That should alleviate some confusion for the riders of these lines."
I guess you don't get out much. If history has shown one thing it is that any change on the subway system will cause confusion.
C to Rock Park. Never! Because the Rock Park line is one person train operation. The extra crew costs would be astronomical. Let 'em send the C to Lefferts (shuttle on the midnite) and the A full time to Far Rock (and you'll double the service most times of the day), with minimal additional crew costs.
On Tuesday, I'm going to be at 179st Jamaica. I'll be heading home at around 5PM, what's the fastest way for me to get to Bay Parkway on the N from there?
179st Jamaica F > Queens Plaza G > Smith-9th F > 4th Avenue M / R > 36th Street N
179st Jamaica F > 34th Street W / Q > Dekalb/36th Street N
179st Jamaica F > 4th Avenue M / R > 36th Street N
179st Jamaica F > Queens Plaza R > ??? N
Okay:
1st one with the G is out. The G is slow, slower than it looks on the map. Plus, you'll have to waste a transfer and wait another train just to go one stop, a big waste of time.
2nd one looks good and direct.
3rd one is direct as well, but you'll be taking the F through 6th Ave lcl, plus you can't get the N when you get out at 4th Ave/9th St.
4th one is definitely not a good idea. Basically, you'll be making every stop from Queens Plz through Bway Lcl through the WTC diaster through the tunnel plus you have to change for the N somewhere in the middle!
So my suggestion is F to 34th, Q/Qexp to DeKalb or W to Pacific, N. Also, keep in mind: if an N comes into 34th before a Q/Q/W then just take it. The chances of passing the N in front of that N is slim, it has been resolved on this board that you don't save any more than 3 minutes by taking the bridge from Canal to DeKalb than the tunnel even with the extra stops through the tunnel! Plus the N runs exp from Pacific to 59th so you can't pass it along 4th Ave either.
The G between Queens Plaza and Bergen will beat the F train on any given day by at least 7 minutes. During the rush hour this is increased due to all the door holding that goes on at Lexington, 34th, W4th, and B'wy Lafayette. And if he's travelling at 5PM he definitely doesn't want to make any transfers in Manhattan, especially not at 34st. However, if he just missed the G may as well stay on the F.
And the time savings of Bridge / Express Vs. Tunnel/Local from 34st to DeKalb are 15 minutes. I figured this one by taking a Q which departed at about the same time as an R, and after I got to DeKalb timed how long to wait for the R. I didn't pass any other Rs but this was a Sunday morning, not Tuesday afternoon rush.
hmm...well the G isn't that great...but as Henry R32 said, you really don't transfer at Herald Square...too many people...especially during rush hour...i'm not sure, but how bout the (7)...
7 ... from Jackson Heights to where? Queensboro Plaza maybe for a N? I could imagine the time it'll take me to get from the F platform to the 7...
The G is quick, direct, and not-as-crowded. If you can catch one at Queens Plaza in a short time I would take the G over the F anyday.
It's unlikely you would bennefit much from the Roosevelt/74th/Bwy transfer to the IRT, unless the Queens Blvd line is in real trouble. The (7) is great, more reliable than the Queens Blvd for sure, but what a long, slow transfer it is.
:-) Andrew
The (G) is fine between Queens Plaza and Smith-9th, pretty fast for a local run. The trick is whether you manage to get one. They're not terribly frequent. In any event, it's a better Queens-Brooklyn route than the (F).
:-) Andrew
I've been working in a booth on the G line the last 2 weeks. During the PM rush the G runs pretty good. It alternates with the R running in Queens. I'd say the G runs about at least every 5-8 minutes.
That is a tough one. The fastest way will turn out to be the route in which you would be lucky enough to have the least wait between connecting trains, partularly if you happen to see an R waiting across the platform at Queens Plaza. Then if a G is waiting across the platform at Queens Plaza you'll have the advantage of not having to go thru Manhattan. Here's an idea, draft 3 other subtalkers who have nothing else better to do and each guy goes each way you described and see who arrives to the destination first!
How about an "Amazing Race" on the subways??
Can it be done before Tuesday? Any volunteers?
I'd take the second one, and better if it were the W...no stop at Dekalb...but you transfer at Herald Square...which is bad...your choice...just pick
Take th F all the way to Bay Parkway and mcDonald and then take the B6 Bus for the short distance, you will have a seat all the way and no crowds to fight for changes
Very true, but the B6 ... IS THE MOST HORRIBLE BUS THAT I HAVE SEEN!!! That thing never comes on time (the schedule thingy) and when it does come, there's at least 2 of them. I saw 5 of them come at once a couple of weeks ago. My friend who takes it farther west on the route says that when he's coming east, sometimes, the bus will terminate at coney island avenue. That's when I said, no wonder why I never see any over here.
I take the B6 almost every day to get from the F to 86th and Bay Parkway. It stinks. They bunch up all the time. Combined with the irregular F service, my trip from Ft. Hamilton Parkway can be as little 30 minutes (if I just catch an F and catch the last, empty B6 of a bunch) and as much as 65 (if I have a long wait for both and the B6 stops at every stop and hits every light). The F gets so screwed up coming in from Queens in the morning. The B6 Limited service has not helped the bunching problem between Bay Parkway and McDonald.
The B6 Limited service has not helped the bunching problem between Bay Parkway and McDonald.
I know this is Subtalk, but how else can I reply?
That's because the limitied stop service is not in effect in that part of the route. I think that limited service actually makes them bunch up more because the limited stop bus will be able to catch up to the other busses that are ahead of it.
I will add by saying that I was waiting for the B6 last Wednesday by my home stop (Bay Parkway & 65th Street) It took 45 MINUTES for the bus to come and guess what? 6 BUSES came at the same time. Boy....If only Bay Parkway had dollar vans..............
-Mark
Where is the Culver Shuttle when you need it!
By the way, would you know how long it would take the F to go to Bay Parkway?
The FASTEST way is:
From 179 St. Jamaica to Bay Pkwy on the N:
Take the Q43 bus to Sutphin/Archer (running time 11 minutes),
Then take the LIRR to Flatbush Av. Brooklyn (running time 19 minutes). LIRR trains run every 12 minutes to Bklyn during the PM rush (fare $3.75),
Then take the N from the Pacific St station to Bay Pkwy (running time apx. 25 minutes).
Yeah it'll cost you a little extra, but you'll save about 35 minutes, and you won't hit the rush hour crowds until you board the N train.
Sounds nice, but I've never taken the LIRR before so I don't know how to buy a ticket with cash nor do I know where to go after the ticket.
[Sounds nice, but I've never taken the LIRR before so I don't know how to buy a ticket with cash]
Go to any ticket booth. If they're all closed, and there are no available ticket vending machines, buy the ticket on the train.
[nor do I know where to go after the ticket.]
Look for departure boards or screens in the station. They'll tell you which track the train will depart from.
If you're willing to spend a few extra bucks (as apparently you are), get off the F at Queens Plaza (far north/east end) and walk a few blocks to Queensboro Plaza, paying a second fare there. (Of course, if a G or R pulls in at Queens Plaza, take it.) If a W pulls in first, take it to Pacific or 36th and transfer to the N there. If an N pulls in first, either take it all the way or transfer at 57th or 42nd to a Q/W and back at Pacific or 36th. If a 7 pulls in first, it's probably not worth taking it unless you just missed an N/W and want to try your hand at a game of catch-up -- if you're in the right spot on the train (around the third car or so from the Flushing end), you'll be right by the escalator at Times Square, and from there it's a short passageway and two short flights down to the BMT platform.
If you'll be doing this both ways, use a Fun Pass. (In fact, if you'll be traveling anywhere else by subway or bus on the same day, you want to use a Fun Pass regardless, and the out-of-system transfer won't cost you anything extra.) On the return trip, it's always a question whether to aim for the W at 36th or Pacific or for the Q at DeKalb. If both Q's are still running (and the W is running through to Queens), the the Q runs more often than the W but the W will take you all the way to Queensboro Plaza. If only the circle-Q is running, that's probably your better bet. At 42nd, grab an N (or W if it's still running through) or, better yet, an R -- or a 7 downstairs (although going down to the 7, you're stuck using the ramps, pushing your way through the crowds on the IRT platforms, or walking out of your way to the direct down escalator).
An alternate plan if you're already making multiple transfers: use the 4/5. If you get an R at Queens Plaza or an N/7 at Queensboro Plaza and don't want to slog through the local stops, transfer at Lex to the 4/5 (or take the F straight to 53rd/Lex and take a 6 one stop down), and pick up the N again at Atlantic/Pacific.
The not-quite "transfer" between Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza is kind of a pain in the butt, IMHO.
I used it a week ago. It's not great but it's better than waiting all day for a G. It's probably better than the Herald Square transfer that others have been recommending. It's about two or three short blocks.
I can't imagine that you'd save much time, if any. I'd sooner go with the (G), even if it is a wait.
:-) Andrew
It's not too bad if you use the correct exit at Queens Plaza. Otherwise you may as well not bother.
He's looking for the fastest way, not the scenic route.
Besides they got rid of the $30 hookers at Queensboro Plaza last month.
See what I mean! No need to change there anymore.
And they were that expensive?
I think it is likely more as they do not look like drug addicts and have no crack marks. Maybe they are all on H, they were all thin (and actually genetically female) but I was a kid when H was king so may not know all the signs.
I was almost send directly to jail no $200. I was walking to work during one of the mini sweeps and some girl grabbed me trying to pretend we were walking thru.
Besides I thought if David was sending him there to complete the kids 'education' he should have enough money for the rides in the amusement park.
I guess I'm a dyed-in-the-wool railfan!
Nothing wrong with that!
A regular person's commute: Point A to point B.
A railfan's: Point A, change at C to the F then D, wait for a 143 on the L to X, P ,Y and then B.
That my dear friend, is so true! Whenever I'm riding alone (because my friends or parents will think I'm crazy) I always take as many detours as possible.
I take expresses and backtrack on foot. Case in point: when I go to Tower Records on W. 66th St., I won't take a local unless I happen to transfer from the IND at 59th St. I'll take an express to 72nd and walk six blocks. I realize that's taking it to extremes, but I avoid locals at all costs unless there is no other option.
I remember the very first time I transferred from an A to a 1 at 59th, back in 1967 or 1968. To be honest, I felt a bit disoriented when we reached the IRT platform. A couple of expresses ripped past before a 1 pulled in.
So your avoidance of locals is like a childhood traumatization?
That s wjat you get for living in Denver
Yeah, our light rail trains make all stops.:-)
I am an express addict through and through. The idea of stopping at every station on a four-track trunk line just doesn't sit pretty with me.
That's why I was drawn to the A in the first place - it skips 23rd St. while the E, whose R-1/9 side signs proclaimed it to be an 8th Ave. Express (?) stopped there.
The 4/5 seems nice, but you are right about the 6. It will be an extra transfer. However, it's rush hour and so there might be more. This will also get me to Pacific at the back so it'll be perfect for me to get to the exit. Also, no fun pass for the Queens Plaza to the Queensboro Plaza, it's my school pass and it only has 3 rides/day.
Brooklyn trains generally depart in the PM from track 3, in special cases they would use track 2. The sign would clearly read "Flatbush Ave" in any case. The ticket office is in the building, ask for a one way to Flatbush. Or, you could use a TVM. Hit the red button that says "Off Peak One Way City Zone" and put the money in (it gives change).
From your list, I'd probably say # 1 is the best, and # 4 is thew worst.
/:v) Andrew
Thanks everybody for your suggetions and replies. I'd like to take the LIRR, but I'd have to depend on the bus and my experiences with them haven't been too great. Also, I realized that in addition to the fare for the LIRR, there's also the fare for getting back into the subway at Atlantic. One day, I'd like to take a nice ride on the LIRR or Metro North. Herald Square would be nice, but like you guys mentioned, it's crowded there and especially during rush hour. So I guess I'll take the F to Lex and take the 6 to a 4/5 to Atlantic. Once again, thanks everybody!
My buddy Train Dude tells me he knows the director of the N line and considers him a friend. I'll always take the Dude at his word, but I wonder what the guy has for guts. To let them deride his line the way the TA has is enough to make me want to reach for my machete and do some hacking. They have taken the Sea Beach off of Express, off the bridge and out of Stillwell and all the while the director of that line, whoever the hell he is, is standing around with his finger up his ass. The W, a johnny come lately, goes to Stillwell, runs express to Manhattan on the Sea Beach tracks, and he says nothing. Damn, if I was in his place the N would get the respect it deserves. It was once the jewel of the BMT and now is has been relegated to the scrap heap. It is enough to make me good and pissed off.
Hey, I've only been to NYC a few times, but man I love the Sea Beach. It's one of the best rides out there and with R32's to boot. This director guy needs to grow some nuts.
Sea Beach Fred for director of N line!!!!!
I can agree with everything you said minus the Stillwell comment, the (N) was taken out to work on and better the Stillwell terminus. Once down, our friend, the (N) will return.
Until then..............
The "Director" of the N line would be the Line Sup't. He does not make the decisions as to the route of the N line. All that stuff is handled downtown at Jay St. The N line sup't can be moved from one line to another at the discretion of his bosses. Without trying to over-simplify it, the individual line sup't answer to the district general sup't, who in turn answers to the chief transportation officer who in turn answers to Joe Hoffman who finally answers to Larry Reuter. It is a lot more than moving people/trains from point A to point B. It is a very rigid militaristic structure.
N Shuttle All times 86th St-59th Street
Thanks for all the positive replies guys to my diatribe about the lack of respect accorded the Sea Beach, all that is but my buddy Bob, who enjoys panning the N train. Of course his D is no longer the Brighton Local which makes the shirt I got for him as obsolete as his thinking.
The Q was the brighton before the D
Hey old buddy, isn't it great that New York City will now have a Jewish Mayor-----A REPUBLICAN JEWISH MAYOR!!!!!!!!!! Yahoo, I'll bet you are ready to just cry. Say it with me----A Republican Jewish mayor. HA HA HA!!!!!!
Was a Democratic
Just like you I'm pissed off that the treat the Sea Beach Line like garbage. This former crown jewel of the BMT once ran the Triplexes which was your favorite car. They also tested the BMT Standards on those tracks just before the line and the cars went into service on June 22, 1915. For a short time they had the wonderfully fast "NX" train which I guess took you from midtown Manhattan to Coney Island in perhaps 30 minutes or so. Now they treat the Sea Beach Line like garbage and speaking of garbage the tracks on the Sea Beach Line are strewn with garbage just to remind you of how it is treated. I hope one day to be in the vicinity of 370 Jay Street in Brooklyn and my concealed cleft palate is giving me a fit of pain and then I would walk in there and SNARL at them while I'm PISSED OFF!! at them over how they treat the Sea Beach Line. I'd then open my mouth wide show them my UGLY!! looking palate and if some of them are squeamish enough they might get the willies when they see the roof of my mouth. Sure the roof of my mouth might be ugly but, the Sea Beach Line is ugly to look at because of the way it is treated. Not very many people in this world will get to see the roof of my mouth but, thousands of people have to ride on a subway line that is strewn with trash every day and I sure that many of those riders are DISGUSTED!! with it already. The T/A should wake up and clean up the Sea Beach Line and improve service on it at the same time. If they put their minds to it the Sea Beach Line could be the crown jewel that it once was once again.
#3 West End Jeff
I won't hold my breath that long Jeff, but I still wonder why no work has been done to clean up the tracks along the Sea Beach line and why the stations are coming apart at the seams. It is a sad sight to behold but until pressure, real pressure, is put upon those guys things will never change. Maybe in 2005 my train will be back on the Manhattan Bridge and will be terminated at Coney Island. Maybe.
Somehow there should be real pressure placed on the officials of the T/A to at least clean up the tracks on the Sea Beach Line so that it doesn't look like a dump. I'm sure we're not the only ones that are tired of seeing the Sea Beach Line treated like garbage. I'm sure that
the riders are tired of the garbage that is strewn alongside the tracks of the Sea Beach Line.
#3 West End Jeff
I doubt very much that MTA is dumping garbage on the tracks. If Sea Beach riders don't want to see garbage out the windows, they should stop littering.
Is this Peter Stangl, the former MTA executive?
Yes, quite a bastard now. They also tried putting the Talgos and Amtrak's Seattle locals out of business a year or so ago when their Acela contract when getting shakey.
The December 9th date for the start of the (V) service and new 63rd Connector service has been pushed back to December 16th al la some issues with the Contractor problems in finishing the corrections to the signal lines.
As for the R-143, Hunters don't even bother going out tomorrow morning, that train will not be running, as a matter of fact, it hasn't even passed is MI testing.
Will keep you guys posted.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Thanks for that update.
The 143 was track testing on the Rockaway flats last Friday. Haven't seen it since then, might be at Pitkin.
Anyone with in service testing days times on these MU's, please post ASAP. Thanks.
hope this link works !!
Gone 40 years but certainly not forgotten! Wonder how much Bondo was holding together those PE Blimps toward the end?
Go PE!!!
Son of MP-54! Man, those things are UGHLY! What kind of cars are they, anyway, or are they Trolleys?
wayne
They were trolleys, but Interurbans, and among the biggest!
Pacific Electric served Southern California Sprawl before there were freeways. Didn't have the density of NYCT, but it got the job done.
Please note that the "Blimps" have the same H2A couplers as our Redbirds, etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
The dream of a 4th Hudson river rail tunnel crossing got a little closer today when a Senate financing committe approved 2 billion in federal $ for a new crossing. In the wake of 9/11 and the resulting loss of the Downtown PATH tubes, new emphasis has been placed on the need for additional river crossings. The new tube will either go to a new level at Penn Station and then either onto Sunnyside or GCT. There are a variety of final plans with costs ranging from 3 to 5 billion.
The dream of a 4th Hudson river rail tunnel crossing got a little closer today when a Senate financing committe approved 2 billion in federal $ for a new crossing. In the wake of 9/11 and the resulting loss of the Downtown PATH tubes, new emphasis has been placed on the need for additional river crossings. The new tube will either go to a new level at Penn Station and then either onto Sunnyside or GCT. There are a variety of final plans with costs ranging from 3 to 5 billion.
Where does one get further information on this, specifically, on the money to be appropriated?
I assume this is HR 3090.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c107:./temp/~c107OxCHhx
(search on 'Hudson').
Fabulous!
Of course, we still need the Hudson tube back. It is still there, intact except for water flooding. It should be possible to put it back in service in a couple of years.
Amtrak's Acela may, at last, have clear sailing into Penn.
Duh. Just what we need - another tunnel that goes to the SAME place as the already existing ones. That way, if something else unforseen should happen in the future, we'll lose them all.
Where else would you put it? Demolish some upper-west side homes for a new station? Or some lower Manhattan office buildings? Or how 'bout put it in Riverside Park?
Maybe we're not far north enough; I'm sure most NJ commuters want to go to the Bronx and Westchester. Or a little south: Staten Island looks pretty good, don't it? Oh wait, there's already a rail bridge there that gets plenty of use.
NJTransit has been banking on two new tubes to NYPenn with their whole Secacus transfer thing. They want to put in a loop to enable Main and Bergen Co. Line trains to get to Penn Station (by then there'd probably be catenary up as far as Ridgewood). They also want to connect tracks 1-4 to a new tunnel to Grand Central. These plans have been in place for years; putting a new tunnel anywhere else in the Hudson would require $new plans, $new approach trackage on both sides, a $new station, and $additional property acquisition.
NJTransit has been banking on two new tubes to NYPenn with their whole Secacus transfer thing. They want to put in a loop to enable Main and Bergen Co. Line trains to get to Penn Station (by then there'd probably be catenary up as far as Ridgewood). They also want to connect tracks 1-4 to a new tunnel to Grand Central.
Which of the many studies that have been done lays this out? And doesn't this require more tracks under Penn than now exist? What route to GCT ... under Madison (the one avenue w/out subways)? Doesn't that knock out the GCT turnaround loop?
Curious about the actual construction details, to the degree they've been roughed out (no doubt studies ad infinitum to come). Details?
Main and Bergen Lines to NYC??? When would this be by?
And why end the wires at Ridgewood? Why not Suffern?
A tunnel to CGT could connect into the turnaround loop without destroying it, since the Penn Station-bound track could split off before the first turn of the loop begins while the GC-bound track could enter the same loop to the east of that point and continue around the loop to the lower level tracks on the east side of GCT. The connecting track between the two could remain in place.
The big kahuna would be worming the connecting track down Madison Ave and then diagonally across 42nd St. and beneath the IRT shuttle tracks and above the Flushing Line tracks, along with merging the tracks from Madison Ave. with the Amtrak/LIRR tunnel, which would require either a crossover or one flying junction.
The big kahuna would be worming the connecting track down Madison Ave and then diagonally across 42nd St. and beneath the IRT shuttle tracks and above the Flushing Line tracks, along with merging the tracks from Madison Ave. with the Amtrak/LIRR tunnel, which would require either a crossover or one flying junction.
When I talked to a guy from the "Access to the Region's Core" study who was taking public opinions at either Penn Station or the PABT a few years ago, he said that the idea was a straight from from Madison into GCT. The fan of tracks, remember, extends west of Madison just above 42nd Street. Not sure what the connections were, though, hence my question.
Interesting idea about connecting into the turnaround loop.
You're looking at this all wrong. We need additional capacity under the Hudson, into Penn. The additional tunnels mean if there's track work or an accident in one, you can still have decent rail service between the two states. And with four tracks in operation, Acela doesn't have to wait behind a commuter train.
Sept 11 did not highlight any direct threats to those tunnels. It did point clearly to the need for additional capacity. The project is a smart move.
Wouldn't it be better if a different location (IMO GCT) would be served?
Arti
GCT is a good destination, agreed, but part of the point is to remove the bottleneck. Get Acela services on their own tracks, and NJT on their own tracks Which railroad would you like to divert to GCT?
Of course, we can dream about six track service (a third tunnel); the East River has three tunnel sets now (except you can't use the 63rd St tubes yet; they have to be connected to something).
[Which railroad would you like to divert to GCT? ]
I'd say NJT makes most sense, perhaps with a stop on the west side.
Arti
I gather this would be a *single* tunnel, upping the present four tracks of service to five. Is this correct?
Going all the way to Sunnyside does make sense, but I'd like to see the lower 63rd St. tunnel linked to GCT first. A link from the Penn Station tracks into GCT would seem to provide less bang for the buck.
Just getting the extra tube from Jersey into Penn Station, tho', is itself the most significant thing.
It occurs to me that building some sort of secondary, limited service station at 10th-11th Av might make sense. I'm not suggesting anything elaborate, mostly something to serve the Javits Center.
No, Mark, it would up the present two tracks to four. There is exactly one inbound track across the Hudson from NJ, and one outbound track. NJT and Amtrak share these. I'm not counting PATH.
I stand corrected. I'd always thought there were four tracks.
All they need is one additional track under the Hudson to Penn Station for peak direction operations. NJT trains arriving at Penn in the morning rush could proceed to Sunnyside for storage and return to service in the evening. Since most LIRR trains arriving in the morning rush are stored in the West Side Yard, there's plenty of eastbound AM (and westbound PM) track capacity in the 4-track East River tunnels.
A railroad version of the Lincoln Tunnel, eh?:-)
The Bussiness class section of the Peidmont will soon be hosting an honest to god dome car for use my travellers in this holiday season. NCDoT bought the former 1952 Milwaukee Railroad car and refurbished it. They will place the car on Amtrak trains in peak tourist/trvel seasons. The car will have a $16 surcharge over the standard coach fare and will be offered first come first serve to the first 50 people.
What are they doing on the 6 on the weekends that requires total suspension of service between Parkchester and Pelham Bay? They have three tracks for goodness sakes!
i don't know...but here's the MTA Service Update
Track replacement I believe.
For those of you who have responded, thank you for your interest. Some of you left email addresses for me to send you further info. I will summarize which lines will be extended and where new trunk lines will be added. In another post, I will begin to specify specific route markers and which trunk line they will serve. But I must warn you guys; this plan is very comprehensive and will call into play areas you will never think could have subway service, much less extend that far. So bear with me, humor me if sounds a little out there. It may never be a reality, but in an ideal world who knows--it may have been very possible.
thanks again for the responses,
Xtrainexp.
I'll possibly be coming down to NYC on the weekend of Dec 1-2 as part of a campaign we're having here in Canada, called the "Canada Loves New York" campaign, where Canadians from Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal will be taking a weekend excursion to NYC to show our support and to show that WE AREN'T AFRAID TO COME TO NEW YORK!!!!
Anyways, naturally I will be trying to get some subway railfanning in that weekend :)
I'm going to try and maximize the number of lines and trains that I get to ride on, but in particular I'd like to ride an R-142/A ('cause I love new trains), R40 Slant ('cause they look cool!!) , R44 ('cause I want to see for myself what the difference between that and the R46 is), R46 (see reason above) and a Redbird (because this could be my last chance to see them!!)
What are the best lines that run during the weekend where I can see these trains?
Make sure you ride a 2-Bird. The express between TSQ and 96th St. is unbeleavable. Also, try to find a 4-Bird and maybe some of the elusive 6-birds. Finally, try to find a way to ride the Sea Beach. It might involve some walking, but those R32's are well worth it.
But the #2 is not going express because of the #3 turning at 14th St.!
Whoops, i thought they were just running local b/t 14th and Chambers. Gah, that sucks. Still, the Ride from Alantic to Chanbers is nothing to shake a stick at.
yeah...there aren't any crossovers until Chambers, before the Local splits to the Greenwich St. Subway and the express goes to brooklyn...there is one at north of 14 st, but that would block the (3)...
R-142 -- Seventh Ave. No. 2 express (pray Bombardier doesn't sue the MTA between now and your trip)
R-142A -- Lexington Ave. No. 6 local.
Slant 40 -- Broadway Diamond Q express (Canarsie L if you're adventurous and/or want to see their round-ended R-40M cousins)
R-44 -- Eighth Ave. A express (SIRT if you're really, really adventurous, have an extra three hours to kill and want to see their sligtly modifided siblings).
R-46 -- Sixth Ave. F local or Broadway R local. I'd choose the F because you can change trains at West Fourth St. for the R-44 A (or vice versa) and check out the differences in the two cars immediately.
Redbirds -- Mainline, the Lexington Ave. No. 5 express. World's Fair models, the Flushing No. 7 express or local, obviously.
He can't ride the diamond Q since he will be here on a weekend. Therefore, he will have to ride the N or L to find one. Additionally, he should hitch a ride on the best SMEE car ever made: the R32.
I'll second that.
I'm also interested in a trip of this nature. Humour me, why would
one have to be "adventurous" to take the Canarsie L line. I'm a secret Franklin Shuttle fan myself and as a result, need all the help I can get!
Oh, it's just that the Canarsie Line doesn't run through midtown Manhatan and spends most of its trip in Brooklyn (with a brief visit to the southeastern border of Queens), so that a ride on it would require a little more free time than riding on the other lines, assuming you're staying in midtown Manhattan.
With the other lines -- the A, F, Q, R, 2, 6 and 7 trains you can pretty much get your riding in while staying in the midtown Manhattan area. That would help if if you wanted to see a lot of the cars in a little amount of time, though I guess you could ride the L just in Manhttan, going from, say the A train at Eighth Ave. and 14th St. to the 6 or the R train at Union Square.
Oohps. Southwestern border of Queens. Geographic dyslexia.
Thanks a lot guys!! Now I have two more questions...
1 - The hotel my family and I are likely staying in is on Gold Street near Fulton, a very short distance away from ground zero. What's the condition of that area now? Is it an OK area to stay in light of the attacks?
2 - When are they lighting up the christmas tree at Rockefeller Centre? My family and I are hoping to see that if it happens during that weekend (Dec 1-2).
Hi.
I work in lower Manhattan about 2 blocks from your hotel so I can answer (1) pretty well.
The answer is: better, but still not good. The smell of burning metal isn't as bad as it was in the weeks just after the attack, but if the wind is blowing hard east, and if enough smoke is rising, the smell can get bad.
I suggest you avoid walking around lower Manhattan too much. There's a lot of police and National Guard still on patrol and streets are subject to closure at any time. There's also a general emotional pallor around the people here, which is not surprising given our proximity to Ground Zero. You might want to take time to read all of the memorials on the walls here, but that gets very tiring after awhile, despite one's best efforts. You can't get closer than about 1-2 blocks from Ground Zero unless you're a ballplayer, entertainer or politician.
Bottom line: The sun's out but its always dark down here these days.
I don't think they are going to light the Christmas tree that early. According to the lighting of the tree last Christmas, they lighted it a lot closer to Christmas than Dec. 1-2.
If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I wouldn't think the Rockefeller Center tree will light up this early. (Dec. 1-2)
FROM ROCKEFELLER CENTERS WEBSITE:
>>>The Rockefeller Center tree will be lit this year on November 28th, 2001 at 8:50pm following a 2-hour presentation.<<<
I'm going to try and maximize the number of lines and trains that I get to ride on, but in particular I'd like to ride an R-142/A ('cause I love new trains),
Ride a (6) train at its terminal in Broklyn Bridge-City Hall station for an R142A.
Nowadays, it's not that hard to get an R142A on this line, otherwise they'd be using R62's. You can tell the difference between them by their lighting. R142(A)'s have very bright interiors and a brighter exterior frame, while R62's are darker in lighting.
R142's are utilized on the (2) line. To retrieve one, the last time I checked, you'll have a slightly less chance of finding one. Redbirds are used otherwise. Everybody says you'd better ride the 2 Redbirds. I like them too. Probably you'll find something there.
You'll like the interior design, male/female automated announcements, and the "doorbells" when the doors close. Everything else I will keep a secret for you to find out on your own.
R40 Slant ('cause they look cool!!) ,
Consider this question to the experts, although this might've been already answered by someone else in this thread. I've been on a Slant R40 on the N once.
R44 ('cause I want to see for myself what the difference between that and the R46 is),
Ride the (A) line. This line has a mix of R38's and R44's. I would prefer the R38's better because of the railfan window, speed, and such. This car type looks very similar to the R32, but you'll notice the differences easier than that of R44/46's.
At the moment, this is the only line that uses R44 cartypes that I can think of.
R46 (see reason above)
R46's are found on the (F), (G),and the (R).
The (E) line borrows some of the cars from the R to run on this line. Otherwise, R32's are used.
The differences between the R44/46's are simple but subtle. The 46's were overhauled. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) Some differences result. There are several that I know of but I'll leave it to you first.
The E,F,G and R trains all run through the Queens Blvd. line. It is easily located on the subway map.
Redbird (because this could be my last chance to see them!!)
Try the (7) Flushing line. This line uses R33 singles and R36 W/F cars. Some MainLine cars (or Pelham line) have moved onto this line.
There are differences between the R33/36 W/F cars and R33/36 ML cars. (MainLine) I know a few of them but I'll leave it to you.
Redbirds are found on the #2 line as well and full-time on the #7 and 98% on the #5 line.
Click on this link. It will help you greatly. It's a Map of the NYC Subway Revised 10/28/01
(NOTE: You must have Adobe Acrobat Reader to make the link valid. It is the only available map on the site as of right now.)
"We hope you enjoy your stay with us".
"Anything to make your trip more enjoyable, please don't hesitate to ask us."
I havent seen it here so I thought i would post the new MTA NYC website
www.MTA.info
That's a welcome move from their part, the old one was way to clumsy.
Arti
I didn't even know there was such an extension called ".info"
Stuart, Rline86man
Yeah, .info, as well as .biz were approved by ICANN last year as the first two new top-level domains under an aggressive new program that will introduce several more, including .store, .air, and the like. Learn more at Network Solutions or InterNIC.
C
What, no .porn?
LOL! I actually think .sex was on the short list, but I'm not sure. I would guess that most porn operators actually wouldn't want such an extension to be approved, because then corporate firewalls and home filtering software could universally block out the .porn or .sex top-level domains, meaning lower traffic. Right now they can play the dodgem game by hiding behind .com.
C
http://www.nyct.org/ is clumsy?
I meant the URL they used to publish www.mta.nyc.ny.us
Arti
What gives you the idea that that's not the URL that the TA is still publicizing? This one is just an alias, to be added to the list of aliases.
Look at MTA posters.
Arti
I'm afraid the only one I have in my apartment is from many months ago. The latest online GO posters have the "www.mta.nyc.ny.us" incomplete URL. I don't know what's hanging in the stations.
The MTA is a state agency. Its URL should be http://www.mta.state.ny.us/. I don't mind alternate URLs being made available as shortcuts but all state agency web pages should be under the state.ny.us domain.
Unfortunately, the public has minimal understanding of the domain naming system.
Think again!
Arti
Is it really new?
I just checked on it and it looks fairly the same as "www.mta.nyc.ny.us".
Then it must be a new link.
Anything special about the RATP he should know? He has a couple of good street maps and subway/bus maps.
1)I notice from the RATP website that the system includes a light rail but I'm not sure where that is... is that what they call Tramway/Tarification Bus? Does this cost an extra fare since the T1 and T2 lines are outside the city limits?
2)A friend told him he should bring a small visa-size photo so he can get a weekly discount card which equals five round-trips? He'll be staying near Bastille station... can he get the weekly pass there?
3)I notice RER rail lines are part of the Metro system. Is there a disadvantage to taking an RER train vs. a Metro train since RER trains probably don't run as frequently? Or since RER trains have fewer stations, are they better to take if you're going from one side of the city to the other?
4)If you pay with an individual fare, do you get a transfer to a bus easily as in some cities (or as in NYC with a Metrocard)? Can you buy individual rides or a small group of rides on a card similar to MetroCards, which New Yorkers can buy at token booths and at vending machines?
5)Last question... After 12:30 at night the entire system is made up of only about 8 overnight buses. Imagine a city the size of Paris with only 8 overnight bus lines... Staten Island has 8 overnight bus lines plus a 24 hour rail and ferry line and that's only a fraction of NYC's transit system! Do Parisians simply know they're probably going to need a taxi or a friend who drives late at night?
Thanks for the answers.
Craig
*
1. The T1 and T2 are considered bus lines and you need to pay bus fare. I don't remember if a metro ticket is good on the bus, I don't think it is.
2. I've always been pleased buying the "Carnet" of ten single trip tickets at the stations. I wouldn't bother with the weekly pass. The RATP web site sucks but it I remember the fare of the Metro is about 55 francs for 10 trips.
3. The RER is the same as a metro ticket within RER zone 1. This zone is basically the area served by the metro and if you have an official RATP map the RER lines have a small black line drawn through them showing the limit of zone 1. Outsize of Zone 1 you buy a ticket good for station-to-station.
4. No bus transfer.
5. Taxi!
The VRE has leased a set of Sounder (Seattle) bi-level commuter and they are runnung on 328/329. Anyone seen them yet?
Phil Hom
Former Quantico to Downtown DC VRE Rider
They are leasing like 2-3. Only one has gotten the cab signal conversion as of yet.
Why does Sounder have them available for lease ?
Is this until all 18 ex-METRA/C&NW gallery cars get put into service ?
Wait a second. Isn't Sounder a brand new rail operation? How is it they have equipment available for lease? One would think they would need it.
Several interesting things were going on around GCT:
The Northbound Express's wheel detectors were off.
The 7 Trains were all turning at Grand Central on the Times-Square bound platform. Patrons were instructed to go upstairs and take the Shuttle for continuing service. We had to key by an automatic while leaving, and none of the wheel detectors were on except the two immediately by the switch. I'm glad they weren't turning on the Flushing Bound track, T/Os would have had a fit trying to cross the switch with WDs on a steep uphill grade.
Why were all the WDs off (not that I'm complaining) and why were 7s turning at GCT?
Anthrax scare?
wayne
Scheduled GO, what for, I don't know.
It wasn't (and isn't) posted on the TA web site.
Then again, neither are many other GO's that affect the public. And the ones that are posted don't always make much sense.
It also wasn't in the employee Cheat Sheet for G.O.s. Interestingly, the W via Sea Beach G.O. was cancelled at the last minute. The employees' sheet still showed it but the web site did not.
I thought someone posted here that he walked out of his way to the West End rather than the Sea Beach to get to Coney Island, only to find that Coney Island-bound W's were running on the Sea Beach.
Why does the TA have so much difficulty posting all the relevant GO's on the web site?
Yesterday at 3:30 PM the W was normal... It may have been different earlier.
I'm greatful they even bother to post them on the site at all. It's not like we can get them anywhere else...
I did not see anything for the 7 when I checked the MTA site on Friday.
Sounds like deja vu all over again.
My mom and brother ran into the same situation earlier in the morning around 10AM.
So they went to take the Shuttle to GCT for the 7.
I don't know the reason, and it's not even on the website.
Are they using the crossover switch just outside of GCT? If so, how long has it been since it was last used?
Also, what are wheel detectors?
Also, what are wheel detectors?
A new and obnoxious type of signal. Instead of the normal set of colored lenses, they have a lunar white lens and a yellow plate that says "WD xx" where xx is a speed limit.
Unlike a regular signal, which can be passed at any speed if it wasn't red when the head car passes it, WD's monitor the speed of the train for the whole length of the train, and will happily trip the train if their speed limit is exceeded.
Since the TO can't see the signal once they pass the signal head, this leads to creeping past any WD whenever it's active, regardless of the posted speed.
This seems to be the TA's intent. From my point of view, a few new "traditional" signals and possibly some signal timing adjustments would work better. [For example, WD's are often used to enforce speed across diverging switches, such as south of Canal on the E. But, since the normal situation is that the local stops at Canal anyway, simply requiring a full stop at the "traditional" signal at the south end of the platform would work just as well.]
G.O. for track and signal work.
How were they directing passengers to 5th Avenue (either to get off there or to transfer to the B/F)?
Were all three shuttle trains running?
A notice on MTA's website has announced a public hearing for the acquisition of land and temporary construction easements for a passenger elevator at the 179 St station in Queens. The elevator will be constructed on the southeast corner of the street.
ADA access is finally arriving to the eastern stretch of the F.
While the MTA should do all it can to provide access for the physically challanged, it is not required.
RE: "The Americans With Disabilities Act", Questions and Answers, EEOC-BK-15 Rev; Sept. 1992 Page 23.
Yes, that certainly irritates me.
I should point out something: Making a station ADA-compliant, if it is done well, increases the station's capacity to handle larger numbers of people, in general, in comfort and safety. So looking at ADA improvements with regard only to the disabled is very narrow-minded.
ADA regulations are very useful guidelines for building stations which serve everyone better: people with kids in strollers, people with suitcases, shoppers with shopping carts and bags, the elderly, etc. etc.
Busy terminals like Main Street-Flushing, 179th Street, Stillwell Avenue and Jamaica Center all benefit from ADA (well, 179 in the future), in that they serve everyone better because of compliance with it. The more compliant stations there are, the more enjoyable the riding experience - and that encourages higher ridership (not to mention that whole classes of new riders gain access to the system).
So you see, ADA serves all of us, not just the disabled.
I'm not disagreeing with you - just pointing out that it's not required under ADA. Clearly the TA is installing the elevators for the reasons you have stated.
Agreed.
The TA has 100 stations in mind as "key" stations for full ADA compliance, and any new lines or stations (like Second Av or a 7 extension) would be fully compliant. The TA has still not decided whether or if the to-be-rebuilt stations on the South Ferry loop will be ADA-compliant, although, from the tone of the letter I received from NYCTA on the subject, I suspect that at least one or two will be (perhaps the South Ferry terminal, along with the station closest to where Larry Silverstein erects a new trade center complex).
I would think all of the stations around the WTC site will be ADA compliant when they're rebuilt, especially if there are direct connections to any new buildings. If they interconnect all the stations through some fare-control zone passageway it might be tougher for that to meet ADA standards, unless they dug out a new tunnel below the old mall level just for the transfers and put in elevator access.
thanks for a well spoken point of view. defensive citers of exempting rules might well imagine their own approaching 'golden years' of arthritis and decreasing mobility.
Wasn't there an agreement resulting from the lawsuit by the EPVA - EPVA v. MTA, 433 N.Y.S.2d 460 (Sup. Ct., 1st Dept. 1980) that the MTA would go beyond the strict requirements of the law when possible?
Every time I ride Metro North into GCT, I pass over the waterside Hunts Point Bypass, opened a few years ago. The rails are shiny, so obviously it's used.
So, the questions: How much? By what trains? Traveling to where (which companies)? Any notion of whether its original goal -- to increase rail freight -- has been in any way achieved or furthered?
(Sorry if this has been covered in the past. I'm just returning to SubTalk.)
A) CSX, CP Rail, to from oak point yard & Long Island
B)no idea on train numbers, but CSX moves at least 5 days a week with what CR reffered to as "SEOP" - (selkirk-oak point Round Trip...) - it's general merchandise powered mostly by sd'40's anywhere from 50-100 cars. it runs late at night to avoid metro north rush hours. there is also a trash train that runs from the harlem river yard, 3 times a week i believe.
has it brought in more freight? i doubt it, though it makes it far easier i'm sure. no more reverse moves and making a twisted trip over all the mainline tracks at mott haven jct - eleminating the associated risk of derailing and completely screwing the morning rush (in fact, the line was finally opened because a train with double stacked trask containers (I believe) somehow got as far south as the bronx (there were always good clearances to the GM plant in tarrytown...) before hitting an overpass and fowling 3 of the 4 hudson line tracks one morning, pissing off quite a few folks...
also, the branch between mott haven and oak point has a low tunnel, tight curves, and piss poor drainage, whereas the new connection is... well... NEW!
aside from akk the CSX traffic, there's a 3 time a week CP rail train to LI. usually 2 SD's and 1 to a dozen cars. CP would be doing better if they could ever get the EDC to finally give them 65th yard in brooklyn. they're suppose to get it, but it'll probably be another couple of years before whatever it is that needs to be signed off on is done. even there, the yard is rusting, with trees grwoing in the tracks, and the bay ridge branch ain't doing much good either. it'll take a lot of work to get that up to speed... hopefully someday (before CP just gives up on it...)...
if anything, the new link has made geting trash in and out of the south bronx easuer - and with 3 unit trains a week, that's not too shabby.
You can see the northbound train daily at about 10:50 - 11:15 PM daily at the Madison Avenue Bridge on 138th Street. The Southbound train comes much, much later.
It has been two months since the terror attack of 9-11 changed this country forever, yet the fires still burn beneath ground zero for two months.
A T/O friend of mine who runs the (Q) line told me of that day two months ago. He was actually on the Manhattan bridge heading toward Manhattan when the second plane hit the other tower. He told me of hearing a sonic boom and passengers in his car started yelling and screaming in horror. If that wasn't chilling enough, when hearing the sonic boom, the Manhattan Bridge shook !! Not a very reassuring feeling.
Bill "Newkirk"
No its not at all! Just about makes me not want to ride the W & Q lines anymore if the Bridge shook when two building get hit nearly across town! I wonder in if the brooklyn bridge shook too?
T.
Trevor,
I would guess that the Brooklyn Bridge got shook too. It was even closer to the blast.
Bill "Newkirk"
It has been two months since the terror attack of 9-11 changed this country forever, yet the fires still burn beneath ground zero for two months.
And they may continue to burn for some time yet. News reports say the temperature at the core is still up near 1,000 degrees.
At least we can take some consolation from the fact that the war in Afghanistan seems to be taking a major favorable turn. All the talk about how battle-hardened and courageous the Tabilan were - I guess that courage and toughness sort of evaporated when the B52's started carpet bombing the Taliban lines. How do you say "Mommy mommy, I'm scared!" in Pashtun??
Stay tuned........
Is subway service running?
According to NY1 subway runs. PATH was suspended, maybe running by now.
Arti
What the heck just happened? Just before 10 AM I hear on the radio there's been a plane crash in Queens?
MATT-2AV
Watch NBC and CNN, thats all anyone can tell you
How about checking a news website like nytimes.com?
I'm not one to normally make off-topic posts, but you should be honored, Dave. Your site was the only site I could pull up at that time,
MATT-2AV
How about checking a news website like nytimes.com?
As on September 11th, most of the news websites were largely inaccessible for quite some time. Not a good performance.
Am watching , switch between CNN and NBC, looks like a engine fell off
That happens all too often at American Airlines....like the DC10 in 8/79 in Chicago.....and on an MD80 right over my residence in Orange County, CA, about five years ago (though that plane made it to an airport safely, thank hevanes!!)
I had trouble getting up this morning, ever since Sept.11th I'm always nervous when turning on TV. Today when I turned it on, I saw the flames and smoke of a plane crash. According to the eyewitnesses, a large airplane (Airbus)taking off from JFK appeared to have mechanical trouble, sparks coming from the engine. Then the wing broke off and the plane crashed into the neighborhood of Belle Harbor in the Rockaways, which isn't too far from B116th.
It looks like it was a mechanical problem, but the images of fire, smoke, and destruction are all too familiar and upsetting.
Also I'm having trouble getting through to this site, perhaps it is just due to high net traffic.
1) Wittnesses said an engine looked to be in trouble and then fell off.
2) The Airlines are in big financial troubl
3) Companies in trouble defer maintainance
4) Airbus is more than a little dodgey and has a questionable safety record.
You make the call.
Airbus has a very GOOD safety record actually - it's Boeing that's crap. That's why Airbus is profitable. Rumor is that maintenance was done on the plane last night ... maybe someone left a wrench behind? GE engines by the way are quite well known for flying apart ... it had GE engines.
But I'm heartened to see that folks here didn't go for another dose of MSNBC End of the World ... I also got quite a kick out of seeing that NBC, which fired its photographers, and then screwed its stringers had to rebroadcast channel 11 nationwide because they couldn't get anyone to hold a camera at NBC. Love it!
The link is here.
Eight incidents have been recorded from 6/27/76 to 2/16/98 (excluding today's crash.)
The details are clearly posted on this site, including location, airline, registration, and fatalities on board.
Can't seem to raise the site (no response) ...
Try this.
THAT link works but like so much of the internet, provides pretty useless data - fact is, most of the A300 crashes were the result of hijackings, monkeys at the controls and of course a US military bigass bazooka. Not to denigrate in any way, but the A300 has a pretty good safety record, compared to other brands of flying rock or later model airbusses ... Boeing's killed many times that without benefit of operator headspace error ...
If the link doesn't work, try copying and pasting this link onto your web address bar:
http://www.crashdatabase.com/cgi-bin2/webdata_crashdatabase.cgi?cgifunction=Search&Aircraft=A300
This provides the same information that I have mentioned before, and provides a paragraph explanation in addition to the other suggested link.
Remember all those Airbuses that basically just decided to land. Just ramdomly. You can ask Lexcie, he has better knowledge into the misadventures of airbus. He told me he flys Virgin just because they don't use Airbus products. They also have the system where they limit the things a pilot is able to do with blocks built into the fly by wire commands. Boeing feels that if a pilot feels that in order to save the plane he needs to fly it upsidedown and backwards then by golly he should be allowed to do it. I don't have any hard evidence, but it would not surprise me if today's crash pilot was trying to bring the plane back under control, but was blocked by the built in systems.
Airbus is a dodegy git that can't stay in busseness without massive government dole outs from the EU. They are almost as bad as the Jananesse steel industry.
C'mon, Selkirk. Jersey Mike is right again. Can't you see that that crappy Airbus is prone to hijackings and pilot errors?
Heh. Well, I'd look into it a bit deeper if they'd run on rails. :)
Wonder how many of them went down owing to failed tail jackscrews. Nah, won't go there.
Can't be. The airbus 300 is fully mechanical. Only airbuses 310+ have fly-by-wire systems. The pilot of the airbus 300 has full control.
Ah well, my bad. There goes that theory.
The name "Airbus" isn't a comforting one either. The name "cheapens" what flying once was (no offense to Bus fans).
John, you know whats more comforting? LIAirbus!
He told me he flys Virgin just because they don't use Airbus products.
Hate to break this to you, but I flew Virgin about this time last year to LHR and rode an A340 both ways.
The current focus is on the GE (also dodgey) CF6 engine. It was tagged by the FAA to require extra inspections due to a potential to suffer internal rubbing and then EXPLODE. I can see how a cash strapped airline might find itself having to cut down on "unnecessary" inspections.
You might want to read this, posted back in Feburary, it doesn't make AA A300's sound that great. Then again, I'm not really familiar with aircraft jargon.
That's why Airbus is profitable.
I always thought the European gov'ts subsidized Airbus like crazy, which is the only reason that they are still around.
Yep, that IS the only reason Airbus exists...they are heavily subsidized by the governments of France, Great Britain, and Germany. If they had to do it on their own, they'd have been long gone.
On the subsidies, true ... however, Airbus doesn't make fighter jets that I'm aware of ... nor are there tax incentives for them. All a matter of how you label your "subsidies" I suppose. Now if the MTA were to build tanks, I'd bet they'd pay US to ride the subway. :O
Did you read the links you posted? All the examples you posted referred to either pilot error or engine problems.
Airbus aircraft are no worse than Boeing's. Some subsystem vendor engineers, like Eaton's, will tend to like Airbus better than Boeing, while others will do just the opposite. They're pretty equivalent in safety, which, overall, is outstanding and much safer than the car you choose to drive in every day.
Ilyushin, the Russian design buraeu, has built some pretty rugged aircraft over the years, which can take a lot of abuse and negligence and still fly. When these aircraft are mated to American Pratt and Whitney engines, which is what Aeroflot chose to do with its IL-96 widebody, they become very decent planes to travel in.
Airbus is directly subsidized more heavily than Boeing; Airbus' partner companies do have defence contracts as well, but Boeing has had a larger portfolio of them. All in all, Airbus has not yet demonstrated its ability to independently build commercial aircraft profitably; Boeing has.
Engine problems are exactly my point. AA had several of them with this aircraft. As to whether this the norm for airlines or not, I don't know.
I still can't get WNBC well on my TV. Yes, I use a roof antenna it is aimed toward Manhattan and have a signal amp to boot.
NBC is VERY screwed up. All the other stations come in fine, except for WNBC(CH4). The only thing I watch on NBC is Jay Leno anyway.
"I still can't get WNBC well on my TV"
Most channels are broadcasting from the good old Empire State Building. Is your antenna pointed in that direction? How is the wire connection to the antenna and condition of the antenna wire ? These too are factors.
Of course if you have an old mechanical type tuner on the TV and not the current electronic type, maybe the contact points are oxidized.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have an antenna too (but I do not use it primarily), I have no problems at all with channel 4, the only bad one is 13.
It sounds like it might be my antenna then. And I guess I'm gonna have to call the landlord .I'm in a small apt building and everyone else has cable, hopefully they will fix it.
When TV moved to WTC, a chunk of lower Manhattan and Brooklyn lost reception. PA published a pamphlet on better reception...politics as usual. When WTC went down with its facilities and most of the transmitter techs, the FCC law required the transmitters to be back on ASAP. It was interesting to see that Mr. Armstrongs old mast on the Palisades put to good use....methinks that WNET 13 hasn't moved yet. UHF TV with preamps in my apartment bring in LPTV and channel 49 which is the OTHER WNET. Peter
I got a better signal off of Armstrong. Sea Cliff has a direct line-of-sight with NE NJ where the Armstrong tower is located. The Empire signals are more or less good though, except for channel 4 for some reason. I'm gonna have to get the antenna moved. It points west toward NYC though, but I guess some fine adjustments are going to have to be made. It is an old antenna, which doesn't help matters. God forbid my landlord would pay for basic cable!!!
>>> God forbid my landlord would pay for basic cable!!! <<<
You have a poor understanding of business and economics. If your landlord paid for basic cable, the cost plus 20% would be included in your rent.
Tom
This one is thought, tentatively, to be due to a catastrophic engine failure on takeoff.
A jet engine is stressed maximally on takeoff- full thrust, highest operating temperature, maximum rpms, and maximal force applied to rivets etc. So structural failure is most likely to occur at take-off or right afterward. This has happened a couple of times (engine core shattering, engine falls off, fire starts, shrapnel propelled everywhere). The presence of a Kevlar belt around the engine can help mitigate sometimes, but not prevent, disaster.
I believe the NTSB may be leaning this way.
Most motors are at maximum stress upon initial acceleration. The Cummins engines we use in many of the LIB CNG's often are very stressed upon acceleration from a stop, and to no suprise 90% of the stalls I've experienced is when the bus starts moving from a stop.
firsthand, its much scarier thanTV, but otherwise, its the same. terrible. I dont think terrorism is involved, though
Well what happend?
Um, a plane crashed. I was over 200 miles away and I knew that...
Just spoke to my friend whose aunt lives on B 126th and Newport Av. Told me that the corpses were hanging off the trees, cousin still crying...
Arti
That must be a horrible experience. You can do a great deal of good for them just by listening.
Yeah, one of the more grisly components of a plane crash, particularly that of a heavy, is that of the recovery of the deceased. You'll see that many of the rescue workers will be visiting therapists (and as if the whole 9-11 thing weren't bad enough on our rescue workers) for quite some time to come.
To put it in some perspective, I heard a story of one Red Cross worker who had come to clean up the site of an airliner wreck. He was none the worse for wear, actually, until one backyard barbecue. Seeing a rack of ribs on the grill, well... it was a little too much to handle and he puked his guts out.
They've recovered 265 bodies by now (almost 11pm on tuesday) which is surprising. This tells me one thing- the impact was probably at less than 200mph. When you have a plane auger into the ground (i.e. flt 93 or valujet) recovery of human remains is quite tedious, since you end up with little more than pieces. In this case, we've already accounted for nearly all the dead on the plane and on the ground.
So, what probably happened is a scenari similar to this:
1. Major engine failure soon after takeoff due to birdstrike, catastrophic engine failure, etc...
2. Flight crew dumps fuel (which is why the fires in Rockaway were not as bad as they could have been)
3. Engine mount fails. Aircraft rolls, exceeding the airframe's capabilities, and the aircraft falls apart. Aircraft doesn't so much as auger into the ground but rather falls.
Anyway, that's my $0.03.
They've recovered 265 bodies by now (almost 11pm on tuesday) which is surprising. This tells me one thing- the impact was probably at less than 200mph. When you have a plane auger into the ground (i.e. flt 93 or valujet) recovery of human remains is quite tedious, since you end up with little more than pieces. In this case, we've already accounted for nearly all the dead on the plane and on the ground.
It's said that a fatal air crash can be put in one of three categories:
A visual-identification event.
A dental-records event.
A DNA event.
It looks like this crash will be in the first category, which I suppose is better for the families of the dead.
I once heard a radio reporter referring to a bus accident as-
"Twelve people were killed, three of them seriously."
A lot of acquaintances from school live in the Rockaway Park area. I hope they're O.K. Also, someone I know works at the Broad Channel Fire department. Watching the news reports it seems that no one (FD, Police, or residents) on the ground has been reported to have serious injuries. I guess I'll find out tomorrow at 8:50 if anything happened. Why couldn't there be school today?
Somehow, I don't think I'm nearly as affected by this as I would have been before Sept. 11th.
TV says Belle Harbor (apparently in the Beach 120s-130s). A graphic, on MSNBC I think, appears to put in Jacob Riis Park, just off the Gil Hodges Bridge.
This part of Queens is about the most remote part of the city. It's well beyond the reach of the Rockway subway line.
You really *do* know the 5 Boroughs if you know where Roxbury is. It's immediately west of the GilHodges Bridge. I've was there only once, and this a good 10 years ago: it's almost rural. I was reminded of it because I saw that the Roxbury Fire station crew was there.
As I recall, the Gil Hodges Bridge is toll -- a very low toll: 10 cents? 25 cents? What's it now?
The area is in the Belle Harbor section of The Rockaways, just west of Rockaway Park. The site is 14 blocks from the subway station at Beach 116 Street.
Roxbury begins at the Marine Pkwy Bridge at Beach 169 Street, and the toll for the bridge is $1.75
Or $1.25 with E-ZPass. Same as the Cross Bay Bridge and the Henry Hudson Bridge. There are resident discounts (but not at the Henry Hudson).
Crash was at B 129.
rockaway is one slightly backwards place. i think i saw a 'broad channel volunteer' fire truck in the mix - anyone recall their infamous parades?
Yahoo has a map where right on Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn is says "Queens"
More specifically, the crash site was at the intersection of Beach 129th Street and Newport Avenue, point of impact appears to be just north of the intersection.
wayne
Ironically, that stretch of the peninsula is only three blocks wide. That makes it even more tragic that this plane hit land rather than the bay or the ocean. You'd barely recognize the neighborhood as being part of Queens, or even New York City. Belle Harbor bears a strong resemblance to a small Jersey shore town. The main shopping drag is on Beach 116th Street by the subway terminal, which is generally regarded as the boundary between Belle Harbor and Rockaway Park. There's a small secondary string of stores on Beach 129th between Cronston and Newport. Apparently none of them were hit.
An early radio report placed the crash at "131st Street in Queens". Being on Staten Island at the time, I panicked, not knowing if they meant 131st Street in College Point (very close to where I live), Kew Gardens, Richmond Hill or South Ozone Park. A minute later, they mentioned "Far Rockaway". Right last name, wrong first name. Lots of people, including the Postal Service, consider the entire peninsula to be Far Rockaway. Well, it IS far-
The ripple effect of this disaster must've reached all the way to Staten Island. While waiting for the 9:42 S78 at Hylan and Guyon, I noticed several unmarked cars with sirens blaring zooming northeast- and figured they were just going after speeders. Little did I know!
The western end of the Rockaways was already very hard-hit from September 11th, (residence of many firefighters) and now this.
I don't know anyone who lives there, but still feel terrible.
I heard two different accounts. One says that the engine exploded and another says there was an explosion on board.
If the former, I would venture mechanical failure and not terrorism. If the latter, terrorism, whether domestic or otherwise, becomes more possible.
At the present time we don't know what happened. We probably won't know what did happen until the black box is recovered. Right now, we just don't know what happened.
The flight's data recorder has been recovered. We'll just have to wait and see if we can salvage anything from it.
No the CVR has been recovered (Cockpit Voice Recorder). The data recorder has not been found as of yet. They might need to bring in equipment to search for the "pinger" if it is in the water.
This is a new plane and would have a data recorder that recordes up to a hundreded different things. Very important to the investisgation.
An on-board explosion includes mechanical causes, so they are the same at this time.
-Hank
American Airlines and GE have released a few more details:
1) The engine involved is the CF-680C2, a variant of GE's standard wide-body engine. One of the engines on the plane was nearing the point of an inspection (10,000 flight hours). Certain models of this engine have had problems with compressor vane disintegration, and GE had to redesign it at one point. A Varig (Brazil) pilot had to abort take-off when a CF-6 exploded as the plane was rolling down the runway. No bird strike was involved.
Since the takeoff flight path would bring the plane out over Jamaica Bay and its wildlife refuge, could it be possible that a bird was sucked into the engine?
wayne
Since the takeoff flight path would bring the plane out over Jamaica Bay and its wildlife refuge, could it be possible that a bird was sucked into the engine?
That indeed is one of the possibilities under consideration. Most likely it would have involved a whole flock of large birds.
Went to DC over the weekend to see the sights and I have one word for the subway - boring. All the stations I saw look the same and there was no excitement. I do like the new signs in the stations that tell the time the next train will arrive and the color but compared to the big apple, DC metro is a snooze.
I found it interesting when I went. I was amazed at how clean it was, how fast the trains were, etc. You should have ridden the Orange line to Vienna, the trains run along a highway median and usually go faster than the cars. The yellow line's bridge over the Potomac is pretty cool too. The red line where runs between those RR tracks (by Silver Spring) is also pretty neat. My guess is you stayed in the underground portion only, right?
Red line at Grosvenor is the best, orange line ranks 2nd. Go to my website (www.orenstransitpage.com) and see my WMATA review for more.
WMATA might have some similar looking stations, but it has a whole lot NYC doesn't.
Unless you ride out past the ares where you can transfer -- Red Line to Wheaton or Shady Grove, Orange to Vienna, etc. -- the central city stations can be pretty monotanus-looking at first glance. When I started riding the system after my dad moved to Washington in 1979, just finding a station with a stairway up from platform level instead of escalators was a major unique character trait (and even back then I thought WMATA was idiotic for not putting any stairways in the majority of their Red and Orange/Blue line stations to speed access to and from the platforms and from the street to the fare control area. That complaint applies more than ever now).
Actually, those elevators have really spoiled me! Every time I ride the subway in NYC or Boston, I think, "What, I have to walk upstairs?"
Of course, most Metro stations are a lot deeper than the aforementioned transit properties, particularly in the suburbs, so they're necessary for mezzanine-to-street if not platform-to-mezzanine.
C
its been a long time and i still have not seen any r62 on the 7. when will they be coming
I don't know. I suspect we may have to wait until the redbirds are gone from some other IRTs. At this point, I'm still seeing an occassional one even on the (6). BTW, the (7) is getting R62A's, not to be nitpicky. :-)
:v) Andrew
i remember seeing on an old map that there was a shuttle from bowling green, to sotuh ferry, have they thought about reusing that?
yes, and they decided not to.
The platform the shuttle used to use at South Ferry is useless now, but the shuttle could use the main platform at South Ferry instead since the 1 isn't in the way. They could have the 5 trains stop there during middays, evenings and weekends and a shuttle during the rush hour if they really wanted to reopen the station. They could leave it closed overnight. For some reason they don't want to do it. The walk to Bowling Green is okay for a temporary basis, but I don't think people will stand for it for several years. The N and R platform at Whitehall street is too narrow to handle the crowds during the AM rush after a boat arrives, some way has to be done to reopen SF.
If there is little or no demand for such a service, it won't get implemented.
How can they determine demand if no one knows it can be done? I feel like giving a 'tip' to some news stations so that people can learn.
What about some train down the Lexington to South Ferry maybe the 6 extended from Brooklyn Bridge. They used to do this years ago. We know trains won't come down the 1 line for a long time.
The 6 was only extended at night, when the 5 didn't run.
The 4, 5, and 6 could not conceivably share the same pair of tracks between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green at rush hour headways.
If the N/R had been out for a longer time than what it was, there may have been a push to open the shuttle or send some 5/6 trains to SF once to cold air and snow from the Upper Bay start blowing across Battery Park. But with Whitehall back in service I'm sure the TA will figure anyone who wants to take the subway from there can either ride the N/R to Canal and change for the 6 or take it to Union Square for the 4/5 (West side access below 23rd is a problem with the N/R, but people who really want to transfer to the A/C or 2/3 at Fulton will still walk the 3 1/2 blocks to Bowling Green for the 4/5 train and take it to Fulton).
As I've said from the start:
Aside from the confusion factor, there's nothing wrong with sending off-peak 5's or midnight 6's to South Ferry (except that, according to some reports, the South Ferry gap fillers don't line up with Redbird doors anymore, which would necessitate a massive car swap). But I think the confusion factor is a big deal: who ever heard of a station that's open at all times except rush hour?
Sending some rush hour 5's to South Ferry would starve Brooklyn. I can't imagine that very many ferry-bound passengers would cross under to the shuttle platform, wait for a two-car train, and ride the few blocks rather than just walk. Even in the winter. Especially with the N/R now running. I wish there were a reasonable way to run through service to South Ferry, but there isn't.
Hmmm, I just came up with an off-the-wall idea. Extend and connect the East Side local tracks to the 1/2 tracks running east. If the 1/2 aren't running at maximum combined capacity (and they're not), add a few 6's to the mix and send them to Flatbush Avenue. That'll free up some 5's to turn at South Ferry. Or an even crazier idea: Connect the south end of the 6 to the Nassau Street line (with trippers on both sides). Cut back the M to Chambers or Broad. That leaves loads of capacity for some 6's to run nonstop from Brooklyn Bridge through the Montague Street tunnel (or even install gap fillers at Fulton and Broad so trains can stop). In Brooklyn, connect the tunnel to the 4/5 near Borough Hall. Again, that would allow some 5's to terminate at South Ferry. Of course, these are entirely impractical in real life, but I think they're neat ideas.
Maybe I'm being too harsh, but it seems to me that the "black boxes" (the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder) installed on commerical airlines almost never provide anything useful after a crash. Either they were badly damaged in the crash and are unusable or they are unrevealing. Usually, the cockpit voice recorder shows that someone said "Oh My God" or something like that before it stopped recording, or that a "thump" occurred.
Can anyone tell me about an incident when the black boxes actually helped to resolve the cause of a crash?
they have been helpful many times. do a search for it on the internet.
[cynic mode on]
It's the NTSB's job to come up with a "cause" of each crash, so the public doesn't get all nervous at the prospect of airborne bombs flying over their heads. It gives everyone an illusion of control. Having a "black box" allows the NTSB to point to something concrete and say "See this proves we're right".
[cynic mode off]
The black box usually only allows theories to be ruled out. If the CVR is intact you can probably rule out terrorism. If the IDR is intact you can tell whether the instruments detected anything about the crash (if they didn't, it must be instrument failure).
The black box usually only allows theories to be ruled out. If the CVR is intact you can probably rule out terrorism. If the IDR is intact you can tell whether the instruments detected anything about the crash (if they didn't, it must be instrument failure).
There were some perplexing crashes many many years ago. The IDR ended up recording maneuvers that were basically impossible. Using the IRD they were able to trace the cause to a malfunctioning artificial horizon. It would give a wrong reading and stick in position. The pilot would try to compensate, but rhe AH would show no change. Finally the AH would "snap" back into the correct posotion. The data on the IDR could only be rationalized in this way and study of the wreckage confirned the hypoethsis.
Yes. Start here: http://www.airsafetyonline.com/ You will find links to CVR transcripts, FDR info, and NTSB reports on 'incidents'.
Current speculation (other than terrorism, which has been all but ruled out (I miss the days when a plane would crash and the only speculation was 'What mechanic fucked up?')) is a bird strike cause a catastrophic turbine failure, resulting in an engine explosion that destroyed the plane.
Nothing like seeing F15s over Queens.
-Hank
Bird strike is cdertainly possible - esp. in the environs around Jamaica Bay. Butr since take-off is when engines are maximally stressed anyway (see my other post) catastrophic failure could happen anyway. It is rare enough so that one shouldn't worry about it before boarding an aircraft, but not unheard of.
The new P&W engines used on Boeing 777's can withstand a chicken shot into them at 400-500 mph. I saw the slow speed test footage, it was pretty cool.
See those engines?
They're HUGE and mad powerful. Seems like they could withstand anything.
They may be HUGE and POWERFUL...but to be so, they operate at VERY close tolerances, and you don't want to do throwing things through the blades. At the speed jet aircraft turbine engines spin, all it takes is one out of balance rotor blade and the whole thing goes whacko.
Believe it or not, the same thing happens to car engines and subway car motors. Get part of the engine/motor out of balance, and everything else starts to go with it.
While speculation has it that it may have been "bird strike" -- sometimes that means a whole FLOCK of birds, not just one bird. There were incidents at Boston's Logan Airport, as well as JFK years ago, where flocks of starlings went into jet aircraft engines on departing aircraft and caused crashes.
At Washington National (Reagan), the ends of the runways had, when I lived near there in 1981-1982, "detonators" -- air operated devices to make loud bangs to scare the hell out of birds and keep them away from the main north-south runway when it was active.
Flocks of birds can most certainly do alot of damage to both engine and aircraft. My first experience with that was being at the Pan Am Worldport at JFK test fitting an interior part on an aircraft at the gate, when a month old A310-300 was being towed in(this aircraft is the technological sister to the A300-600). She got a face full of sparrows and a few seagulls while coming in from Europe. The radome had a few punctures (kevlar honeycomb) and cracks, and both engines had to be completely inspected. The fuselage was covered with red streaks and impacted bird parts stuck in seams(sorry.) One of the engines had to be pulled and replaced (they were PW4000's). The other's cowl had to be replaced, and the engine flushed out after inspection, and then inspected again. The radome was replaced, and the aircraft exterior scrubbed clean. Little birds in large groups hurt!
JFK also has random interval air concussion guns to help scare the flocks away. And the jackrabbits.
The black (orange) boxes are primary tools in investigations. I have recently assisted in the engineering of DFDR installation upgrades on the older 747's to read many more functions than previously. More info helps ALOT.
All jet engines get that test, it's part of the FAA certifications.
Even still, there are *plenty* of things that can, and do, fail on engines, which can cause uncontained failures.
Stuff such as failed compressor discs, ejected blades, combustion chamber ruptures - those simply can not be contained - at all. Contrary to what people think, jet engines only have a kvelar wrap around the fan casing. The rest of the engine isn't (and can't be) wrapped up.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what happens.
Oh yes, black boxes do actually offer tons of useful information. They're very important resources in crash investigation, which is why you always hear about them.
I think that in this case they were throwing frozen checkens through the blades just as an extra measure of safety, but I can't remember for sure. Anyway, the 777 engines can also keep running even with 2000 gal/min of water being shot through them.
Not frozen.
-Hank
Don't forget they use NEW engines for those tests, not engines with significant flight hours.
-Hank
B"H
i've been seeing fighter jets flyin over bklyn every night. they're easy to spot at night, since the only light they display is a flashing red beacon (as opposed to all the flashing strobes and red/green wingtip lights on other planes). i'm sure they're there during the day too, but they're tough to spot in daylight.
-yitz
Actually the Flight Data recorder and Cockpit Voice recorders, especially the new digital units provide tons of information to those of us in the Aircraft Industry. However to the general public these parameters are all but useless. As for your worries about engines, at certain hourly intervals, they are inspected for damage. Externally as well as Internally ( by fiber optic scopes, a.k.a. borescopes ) Also after an alotted number of hours of operation the engines are removed from the aircraft and sent to overhaul; hence the disparity in the number of hours on each engine of the AA A300 aircraft. I should know, for i perform borescope inspections on engines nightly.
Incidently, crash history on the Airbus A300 includes two hijackings, one mechanical failure, one shot down by the US Navy, three human error, and one possible mechanical failure relating to the avionics.
Remember, there are people who follow aircraft just as we follow trains and subways.
-Hank
The US Navy shot down an Airbus A300? When? Why?
Dan
Date: 07/03/1988
Location: Persian Gulf
Airline: Iran Air
Aircraft: Airbus A300-200 B2
Registration: EP-IBU
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 290:290
Details: Shot down by the U.S. Navy vessel U.S.S. Vincennes with a surface-to-air missile. The Vincennes was protecting other U.S. ships in the area during hostilities. A misread radar indicating the plane was descending and the fact that the aircraft did not respond to challenges led to the firing of the missiles.
http://www.crashdatabase.com/cgi-bin2/webdata_crashdatabase.cgi?cgifunction=Search&Aircraft=A300
Courtesy Railfan Pete:
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=280266
Speaking of, notice the airline adverts when you are looking through their site?
Don't you think they're kind of out-of-place?
-Hank
The US Navy shot down an Airbus A300? When? Why?
Wasn't that the one that was shot down near Iran years ago?
Yup. Iran Air. Apparently a USN ship had the aircraft on radar and it did not respond to IFF queries.
They most certainly ARE useful. Sure there are many cases where they get damaged in the crashes and cannot be read, etc. -- but more often they DO provide useful information.
One such case was in the late 1980's....a Pacific Southwest Airlines BAe-146 plummeted out of the air near San Luis Obispo, California. Nobody could figure out why until the flight data/voice recorders were found and listened to.
It turned out that a disgruntled employee of US Air (who had just bought PSA) broke into the cockpit, shot both the flight crew, who slumped onto the control yokes and sent the airliner into a dive. The crew actually addressed him by name, etc., it was all right there on the recorders!!
Once an airliner is facing earthward at 650 miles an hour, it is very hard to recover into normal flight.
Black boxes are tested for their "performance" in withstanding a certain degree of impact or flammability. In the last 5 incidents, however, the black boxes were damaged or has not been referred to.
The main thing after that is the cockpit's tape recorder.
On the UAL flight to San Francisco on the day of the attacks, the black box was said to have been damaged, but the voice recorder at least provided a hint of the cause of the crash.
Can't let the public go without knowing some cause for the crash.
I doubt it was terrorism. Most likely what happened was a bird was sucked in to the turbofan core. Engine self-distructed due to massive mechanical failure (jet engines are very fragile dispite what you might think), explosion caused part of the wing to fail as well as monting bolts for the damaged engine. The other engine could not produce enough thrust(remember, the plane was loaded with people, baggage and fuel) so the plane crashed. Very sad though.
Too simple. Yes on the bird strike and engine explosion; but there are too many large pieces. More likely the turbine blades pierced the wing, and caused an explosion.
-Hank
Indeed.
Most twins (717,737,757,767,777,Airbus)should be able to complete an emergency climbout procedure on one engine. It isn't so much the lack of thrust as it is the sudden shift of center of gravity and unequal application of forces - and the disruption of control surfaces by fire and shrapnel. Apparently even Kevlar around the engine doesn't stop this.
Remember the DC-10 that lost an engine and crashed? Two engines were still working and provided enough thrust, but it went down anyway.
Interesting that one engine was actually found, intact, at the Texaco station.
I heard earlier that one engine landed on a boat. Is this true?
"I heard earlier that one engine landed on a boat. Is this true?"
Nope, it landed in front of a gas station.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, the boat was out of the water, in some ones back yard.
avid
>>Remember the DC-10 that lost an engine and crashed? Two engines were >>still working and provided enough thrust,
And they were NEVER ever to recreate it in the simulator without losing ALL LIFE when landng (Crashing).
That was in Iowa...I remember that one. Even the flight crew couldn't figure out how they did it. The tail engine fragged, and they lost all hydraulics. There are actual CVR files on the web. Scary stuff. Their groud people were in disbelief, because all 3 redundant systems failed. Any 'heavy' crash you can have 1/2 your pax live through...
-Hank
Yeah, although I don't think it was terrorist related some weird things happened. Why did the tail fall off before the fuselage actually hit the ground? Why did the entire wing fall off into the bay? Many of these questions will be answered in the following days.
Remember, this plane came out of maintenance yesterday. Could have been a small error on their behalf. I'm always weary about flying on a plane that has just come out of maintenance.
"Remember, this plane came out of maintenance yesterday. Could have been a small error on their behalf. I'm always weary about flying on a plane that has just come out of maintenance"
How about this theory, a long shot at best. When the plane was worked on, an terrorist sympathizer mechanic sabotages the plane to make it crash and now that mechanic has disappeared and is no where to be found.
A wils theory yes, but a long shot.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, the events in the crash are unusual.
But consider....an airliner is meant to fly in a basically level configuration. Climbing and descending are not all THAT steepc compared to crashing. When something goes kabuki and the aircraft is all of a sudden heading straight towards the ground at high speed, the airframe is under some very unusual stress and can come apart very strangely. (Let's just say aircraft are NOT that strongly built, they are basically aluminum foil on a frame. They are not meant to be subject to any sort of impact, whether it be flying or on the ground.)
But this one is REALLY strange....I saw on the TV last night, photos of the USCG picking the vertical tail section out of the water....and it looked like it had been removed from the aircraft with tools, and dumped in the water. No tears, no bends, nothing...just one solid piece looking like it was intentionally removed.
I've read that this same A/C was involved in something very similar in 1994, where after takeoff, the plane encountered some kind of turbulence, and the pilot had to struggle to keep the A/C pointing up. 47 people were injured in that incident.
This said, in 7 years this situation must have at least repeated itself more than once, and the plane didn't crash, and all problems were most likely ironed out. I talked to several of my pilot friends, and they said that they don't think the wake turbulence from the JAL 744 was the main factor in the crash. They always take more time in the walk-around of the A/C the first or second flight after the plane has come out of maintenance, because although the plane has been repaired etc.. there's still that chance that a wire or screw or panel was accidentally tweaked.
They think that either maintenance made a mistake with the tail. Once the tail is gone, the plane is lost, and cannot fly anymore. The wake turbulence most likely contributed to the tail falling off. This might also explain why the rattling sound was heard. Once the tail fell off, the plain would "wobble" and sway etc... and the engines would most likely fall off (like they are designed to do, in the case that they shake too much. This will usually prevent the wing from falling off).
This is just what I have heard. Not official.
The vertical stabilizer is not supposed to be removed or undergo the kind of maintenance that might leave it exposed to shearing off is in cases of major, and i mean MAJOR repairs. The only time I have seen it taken off is when it has become severely damaged (like the Air Jamiaca A310-300 last summer, I got a real close look after it smacked the hangar roof during a move. the roof punched a big hole it the composite skin - most older a/c are aluminum).
I am really curious to see what the NTSB finds out if this thing was sheared off or pulled off the fuselage. It wouldn't just "fall off".
The tail looks like it definately was pulled off the tail, probably by the wind resistance or something because of something else :-) . I really don't think the JAL 744 had anything to do with the crash. It was 4.3 nm in front of the 587, and took a wider track. You also have to assume that the A306 had a higher pitch rate.
I think there might have been a problem with the "bolts" or fasteners that attached the tail to the fuselage. I believe there are 6 "screws". As you said, most of the older a/c tails etc... are made of aluminum, where as the A306 was made of fiberglass, and graphite I believe. Had aluminum screws been used, then it would explain why the tail came off. After many flights they would have gotten to this point.
Although this is just speculation, I've heard several rumors of this going around.
BTW - Remember a long time ago, a JAL 747's tail came off. There was depressurization in the rear cargo hold, or compartment (not sure). Funny how the tail fell off on a JAL 747, the same airline that took off before the AA.
I also heard reports of some news reporter (didn't see this) who said that perhaps a cargo door came undone or loose (which would explain the rattling) which caused a significant amount of drag, which called for the full throttle, and somehow this took the tail off. I didn't see this, but it was interesting. He also said that the Emergency system on the plane might not have detected this, because perhaps the door was loose or not bolted in properly.
These are all interesting stories. I just hope the NTSB takes their time with the investigation, and doesn't jump to conclusions (especially with this wake turbulence)
AS someone who has been in the Airline Industry for quite a few years you learn to take the media with a tablespoon of salt. While it is strange that the vertical stablizer departed the aircraft the attach pins and brackets were still intact. The fractures occurred above the bracket pin attach points. The composite structure while very durable may be the culprit. Bottom line, let the NTSB do their jobs, and let the news anchors read inaccurate and stupid statements from their telepromters!!!!!
[Interesting that one engine was actually found, intact, at the Texaco station.]
I wouldn't say it was intact. Looked more like a steel pancake...
And it was only HALF the engine ... the other half was found elsewhere. Folks have to learn that they probably know a lot more than CNN or MSNBC's so called urinalists ... my *DOG* is smarter! :)
I've heard that the reliability of the engines is not as good as other aircraft engines. I think the Airbus uses GE engines.
The Airbus uses GE engines in an airframe manufactured by the French. What I think will be found is defective engine mountings and/or bogus hardware. The aircraft industry is riddled with a lot of machinings that do not meet tensile stregnth standards and cannot be checked until a tragedy occurs. Safer on a TA Redbird. Peter
I second the bird theory. This time of year is a heavy migratory season.
BTW, it was probably more than one bird (or a large single bird like a peasant) that got sucked in and caused the blades to fatigue and the resulting complete engine failure.
Also, keep in mind that after 9/11 flights haven't been as frequent in or out of the major area airports -- hence birds are probably returning to the wetland areas as things are abit quietier there.
BMTman
...or a large single bird like a peasant...
Let's try to keep social class out of this thread, Doug.
thanks for the correx, Bob....;-D
If it were birds I think that all the birds by the airport should be exterminated or killed. Environmentalism can put people's lives at risk, even though the tree-huggers think they are right 100% of the time.
>>> If it were birds I think that all the birds by the airport should be exterminated or killed. <<<
That's quite a choice you are giving to the birds. Perhaps President Bush will declare a war on birds and all countries that harbor them. :-)
Tom
The first bird to be killed should be that bastard Osama BIRD Laden...
...as an example to those other fowl evil doers...
BMTman
I'd hate to be a goose right now if they find out if it was a goose that got by the eradication program at JFK. Better to be a NYC pigeon..we got em inside the 239th Street barn. Peter
Listen...I have no real theories however....
This is the third bad accident involving mechanical failure out of JFK in the past 5 years (TW 800, the Swissair flight and now this)....It's also scary, at least to me, that the plane had been for maintenance just the day before.
Isn't there some indication that there might (and I stress the word might) be a problem with maintenance at JFK. Doesn't this deserve at least a look?
I heard from WQXR yesterday morning at "news time" at 6:00a and heard that the crash of Flight 587 was an accident.
The cockpit's tape recorder was found and played, and it showed no signs of the pilot or the captain making a distress call to the ground.
I guess then it happened unexpectedly. I know several homes were destroyed and severely damaged, and the fire and the smoke was menacing, but I hope it has come to a semblance of order right now.
Anyone have an update on the ground condition yet in the site of the crash?
I pray for New Yorkers because I recall all that they have to go through in this time of year. 9/11 terrorist attacks, and Flight 587. I hope New York doesn't get plagued with another incident.
Did the and the Rockaway Park(S) was stoped running when the airplane crash since it did happin not too far away from B 116 St Station?
The < A > (remember to put that space in when enclosing a letter in diamonds) wasn't running because it was a holiday. Anyway the last AM < A > leaves at 7:58 AM. The S was shut for a bit but is running now (according to the web site). Both vehicular bridges to the Rockaways are closed, which means the only way to drive there is through Long Island.
I thought the trains were running on a weekday schedule today. That means the A from Rockaway Park should have run this morning.
IINM, the Atlantic Beach Bridge (which I drove yesterday for the first time, after having been held up by a sailboat) is also closed.
On a bus note, with no access from Atlantic beach to the Rockaways the N33 is probably suspended, as well as the Q53 since the Cross Bay bridge is also closed.
There were NO buses at Rockaway Park. None zip zero. Press were the only ones allowed to park on 116th st. Beach 116 to Beach 149th is closed to all traffic except if you live there.
It's like a "frozen" zone all over again.
I don't get it. When a plane crashes in Belle Harbor, Belle Harbor residents are allowed to go home. When two planes crashed in lower Manhattan, nobody could enter the borough at all, not even residents. At first the subways weren't running and even pedestrians weren't allowed to cross the bridges into Manhattan, and the vehicle ban was in effect (IIRC) over 24 hours. Is Staten Island the forgotten borough? No, I think Manhattan is the forgotten borough, specifically its 1.5 million residents.
Weekday schedule in NYC, < A > should have run.
There are only five (5) count em, FIVE "A" trains to Rockaway Park, all other service is by "S" shuttle (4 car OPTO) weekdays.
I know. But today is a weekday schedule, the < A > was running.
Did the Rockaway Park(A) and the Rockaway Park(S) was stoped running when the airplane crash since it did happin not too far away from B 116 St Station?
Check the MTA web page for the official information. www.mta.nyc.ny.us/index
The plane went down in the B 120's or 130's, some ways beyond the end of the the (A) and (S). I don't think the incident should have any real effect on the subway.
---Andrew
I heard there is alot of power outages in the Rockaways (lines are above ground, likely severed by crash). That could affect signals or 3rd rail power.
I heard there is alot of power outages in the Rockaways (lines are above ground, likely severed by crash). That could affect signals or 3rd rail power.
True.
:-) Andrew
B 129 from what I heard.
On our hunt today for R143's we rode to Rockaway Park, the was NEVER any interuption to the subway on the Rockaways. Once exiting at Rock Park you could not go past Beach 116th St. or down to the Board Walk without ID showing you lived there.
My wife has family on Beach 134/136 and Newport and 132 and I tried to get down to their house but needed ID (They are all okay).
On a lighter note we did not see any 143's on the Rockaway test track or on the L line today.
Mr. T and BMTMan were withme as well.
Lunch at the Wendy's there where there was no soda/chicken products or coffee (they did not get their Monday delivery) where a lot of cops were having lunch and we returned.
Just as a side note, I was flipping the dial tonight and heard one of the reporters on Fox say that because all of the vehicular traffic to and from the Rockaways was closed off after the crash, the only way the news crew could get their was to take the subway to Rockaway Park and then walk the final half mile to the crash site.
yup.
there were a bunch of media types riding out with us. one woman was interviewed for some British outfit as we rode along on the train.
when they asked her for her last name, her first response was:
"Naah, I don't want to be famous in Britain!"
Wonderful photos, Dave. I was wondering if you got a close look at the trackbed, if it's standard gauge, and those half ties are embedded in concrete. It appears as if they are not.
Is the third rail unprotected and uncovered for the entire route lenght?
I'm pretty sure the Lisbon metro is standard gauge. The third rail isn't covered in the stations I recall so I suspect it's like that throughout. As for the ties, from the pictures it looks like half wooden ties in concrete like you say but I don't know for sure.
I looked again at the photos, and it does appear to be the standard gauge.
Did you notice or find out if the cars are all motor cars, or some trailers, by chance? Not important, just curious. Fantastic station views.
P.S. from the photos of the new "Red" metro line it looks like concrete half ties set in concrete.
It sure does. Nice to know the IND's handiwork 70 years ago is being used worldwide now. =)
hmmmm...here's another way we can trash the R32/36's :-P
I'm just wondering what's wrong with building a QB plaza - Queens Plaza transfer?
There is nothing wrong with it. It's a sound idea, but the connectors (I believe) would have to entrench on private property, so that would be an issue.
The connection between the IND Crosstown and IND Queens Lines were done with the cooperation of a non public corporation, so it is possible. I don't believe it has been on the drawing board.
The are interested in a connector. I saw somewhere that they were planning to fund a study for this connector.
It's actually not so bad. You extend a passge from the 7,N,W under the tracks and above the street to a connection across from the old QP's market.
No private property affected. Maybe lots of traffic while you build it but no property rights.
How far past the north/east end of the Queensboro Plaza station does the two-level arrangement last? Could the station be essentially moved east somewhat, shortening the walk?
The N/W turn has a metal tearing sound. 300 ft?
The trouble is just not worth it.
Queensboro Plaza (7) is not directly above Queens Plaza (E-F-G-R) (V?). They are staggered a bit. if a transfer point is to be made, it would help to have escalators and handicapped elevators
If one station is not directly above the other, then pedestrian tunnels would have to be contructed. Then again, they could build a mezzanine and pedestrian walkway on the unused space in the elevated structure above. Either way.......$$$$$$$$$$
Bill "Newkirk"
The Queens Plaza station is slightly to the east of the east end of the Queensboro Plaza station. Running an escalator from the east end of the elevated platform down below street level, a la the end-of-the-platform connection at 74th St. to the Roosevelt Ave. station, would be possible, but making the link ADA compatable with an elevator connection would require either extending the lower level elevated platform about a half block east or digging out a tunnel from the Queens Plaza mezzanine about a half block west to meet the current elevated platform (or the MTA could invent the diagonal-shaft elevator, but I doubt their R&D department is geared towards that).
hey.....as President Skroob said in "Spaceballs":
"What the hell?! It works on 'Star Trek'" :-D
Just kidding.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Diagonal shaft elevators were used in just such a transfer in Boston around 1906, from Atlantic Station in the East Boston Tunnel (1 short flight above platform level) to the mezzanine level of the Atlantic Av. el's State Station. They were abandoned when the el was closed in 1938. One shaft was still visible until the adjacent entrance was closed about a year ago.
I'm all for it. However, as others mentioned, it's some distance both vertically and horizontally. I suppose they could install a people mover somewhere.
:-) Andrew
This has obviously been a bad year for New York and the world.Especially my fiancee,my friends and me.On the 11 my fiancee's brother died when the towers collapsed(The last I saw him was when the second plane hit)and today my friend's fiancee died on that flight.He was on a buisness trip to th Dominican republic and re scheduled for that flight(his original flight was to leave tomorrow).When I heard what happened I was already back home.
mr.x, you and your family have my prayers...be strong, people draw strength from you... I wish all this crap (planned and unplanned) would stop...
marta out
X2001,
You have my condolences in this time of anguish. It will trouble you to try to find out the meaning or message in all this. Yes, the first year of the 21st Century hasn't been nice to New York City.
Bill "Newkirk"
is the B train importion
What's an importion and who gave it to the B train?
Some of us need the local service on CPW in the morning. C isn't sufficient. B and C should switch northern terminals, then you get lines from both terminals that go to 6th and 8th (Avenues).
After Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn, Dave Barraza and I gave Simon Billis (and Mark Feinman) a tour of the structure at Broadway Junction and Atlantic Ave., the four of us headed out to the Rockaways on a set of R-38's originally for railfanning, but also to see if we could check on the whereabouts of some of Lou's relatives who lived in the Belle Harbor area.
When we got to Broad Channel for the Shuttle train, it turned out that a mob was waiting along with us. The 'mob' were media folks (most with recorders, notepads, and/or cameras dangling from their necks alongside their ID tags). The different ethnic groups represented by the press that was there indicated the international coverage that this latest disaster is likely to receive. British, Asian, and Spanish languages could be heard as we waited on the platform.
As the 4-car train pulled up to unload passengers on the in-bound platform, we saw numerous NYPD onboard who stayed on as the train pulled out and switched to the lay-up track. Once the track boarded, there appeared to be little or no delay in service to Rock Park. At 116th Street we were greeted by the sounds of sirens and Police units all over the place (the actual crash site was another 1/2 mile west of us).
Lou was unable to enter the area as only those that live in the neighborhood would be allowed to enter. He was later able to confirm that all of his relatives were fine and that their homes had been spared. At that point, the railfanning day was officially over. Lou and Dave Barraza took the A back to Jay Street for connecting trains home while Thurston and I grabbed a 'J' at Bway-Junction for the trip to Jamaica where we connected with a Rockville Centre train.
BTW, we would never had known of the disaster had I not put in an early morning call to fellow SubTalker, SubBus, who was watching the news during the call. Unfortunately, he was unable to meet up with us since his C/O schedule put him on duty too late in the day.
Sorry for the long post.
BMTman
At 116th Street we were greeted by the sounds of sirens and Police units all over the place (the actual crash site was another 1/2 mile west of us).
Lou was unable to enter the area as only those that live in the neighborhood would be allowed to enter.
Was Beach 116th the boundary of the limited-access zone?
Yes it was. Cops were at all the intersections (N/S/E) checking for press passes & proof that you lived there. We ended up in a Wendy's for lunch in the company of may cops, firemen, FBI, etc.
The train back was empty (cops in the cab on the way down, but none on the train on the way back).
Mr rt__:^)
If any of you guys will see Simon this weekend, please tell him that the e mail address I have for him keeps coming back to me undeliverable and when he gets home to email me something Wish that i was in the City to Join you. I am planning to come up to NYC in Dec and maybe some of you guys can rail fan with me.
It's funny how with the remoteness of the peninsula and access roads closed to it, the subway comes through as a conveyance for these journalists.
Bill "Newkirk"
What a surprise the day turned out to be !
The BMTman & I arrived at Penn Stn. on the 9:08 (not to long after the tubes were shut for a while).
1st - we met Dave & Lou in Penn Stn. then walked to the street for a meeting with a MetroCard collector friend who works in the area. He had been to the swap meet this past Sat.
2nd - we called Mark & discoverd that he & Simon were up early & had just returned to Queenboro Plaza on the #7 Express.
3rd - We took a tour of Penn Sta. & were able to get up close & personal with a AEM7s (NJ Transit & Amtrak), also a Acela was paused in the station.
4th - we caught a Slant 40 at 14th Street, Simon was inpressed at how the operator charged the grade timers outbound on the "L"
The BMTman's report covers our trip once we reached the surface.
It was a pleasure to meet another SubTalker for the first time, too bad the days events tarnished the afternoon.
Mr rt__:^)
I just got back to work after a week's vacation and found out about this trip retroactively. At first I was disappointed I didn't know about it in advance, but given the events of yesterday it's kind of a relief. This kind of excitement we could all do without- the memory of watching the Twin Towers collapse live from my office window still lingers painfully.
I must have been in the most unlikely place possible when I found out about this latest- but apparently accidental- disaster: in the nature center office at Blue Heron Park on rural southwestern Staten Island.
See, I was taking advantage ofthe weekday schedule and the last day of my vacation for a bus/SIRT/nature walk expedition. Cold, clear, dry weather probably offers the best conditions for such an endeavor. Besides, there was no way I was going to waste the day seeing MONSTERS, INC!!
After tooling around the Island on some of its faster, more rural bus routes, I ducked into the nature center to use the facilities and went in the office to see if any trail maps were available. This was around 10:00. The radio was tuned to Z-100 as the ranger and I listened in shock. All we could think was "they did it again!" All indications were that no terrorism was evident, but reportedly the airports, bridges and subway system (?) were all shut down as they were on September 11. And here I was on an island, 25 miles from home!
Any desire to nature walk went right out the window. I headed through incongruously peaceful woods to the Annadale SIRT station where I missed trains in both directions at once, then buses in both directions at once. Not wishing to wait a half an hour, I hiked over to Richmond Avenue between Arthur Kill and Amboy where I got a bus towards the Mall. The driver told me the Verrazano had just reopened, and as far as he knew from dispatch, the ferry was running normally.
Through a combination of bus, ferry and subway, I made it home without a problem. Except for a preacher on the '4' bellowing that this proves "God is punishing us and we'd better repent or there will be more such events", things seemed much calmer than two months ago. That it was a half a holiday probably kept the crowds to a minimum.
Sounds like you guys had quite an adventure. Normally I hate to find out I missed out on a group outing, but in this case there are no regrets.
PATH shut down, subways didn't.
On 9/11 the uptown PATH was running in the afternoon, but the media kept reporting it was shut down.
The different ethnic groups represented by the press
*********************************************************
Must have really stood out, even without the tags.
I got on the F and a friend of mine was on it with me. i was teachin her all about the 53rd st. She told me i didn't see this when i came in on the F this morning, she said she didn't see Ely avenue before. i was asking her did the F stop at Queens plaza? she said no. Then the ultimate clue was she told me that the train felt like it was turning at 36th street, Then she told me she saw the 21st st queensbridge.
During the AM rush, some downtown F trains get rerouted via 63 Street to alleviate congestion.
And to make identification easy, if the F has Kings Highway as its south destination, it will (based on experience) come through 63 St.
Geez lets make those .85 trippers even easier
Hello All,
I really want to believe (and am still hoping) that the reports on the news mean that the plane crash in the Rockaways was an accident; but if thats the case, then this is one heck of a coincidence: Five plane crashes in the last two months, with three of the crashes in New York City. This is weirder than 12/7 being both the anniversary of Pearl Harbor and the L.I.R.R. Massacre. -Nick
There were reports of smoke comming from the engine on takeoff plus takeoff is the most stressful time for an engine. These two facts make a mechanical problem much more plausable than a super well timed, delay action bomb.
Check out my post #280470. It's a long shot, but who would have guessed four planes would be hijacked. Two flown into the WTC twin towers, one into the Pentagon and one a failed mission crashed.
Bill "Newkirk"
5? I can think of at least 2 more overseas. One was actually shot down by the Ukrainian military over the Black Sea in a training exersize gone awry, didn't that happen before I left for Spain or did I see that on European news? Maybe it wasn't a big news item over here. The other was a runway incursion at Milan-MXP, big plane hits little plane, big plane totalled. Accidents DO happen...
It appears at this time that the crash of American Airlines flight #587 was an accident where the Airbus A300 was used. When I heard late yesterday morning that the plane went out of control I knew with virtual certainty that this was an accident, not an act of terrorism.
#3 West End Jeff
Thanks for the info, Dave. I don't know if those two plane crashes made headlines here or not, but if they did, then I missed those stories. -Nick
>big plane hits little plane, big plane totalled.
WHOA.
The bigger they are, the harder they fall.....
If I remember, they did announce this one on the news for about half a day here in NY. Big plane was taxiing, little plane somehow got in the way, big plane tried to evade it and ended up crashing into a terminal building.
"I can think of at least 2 more overseas. One was actually shot down by the Ukrainian military over the Black Sea in a training exersize gone awry"
One was an Israeli plane to-from Israel-Russia was shot down by the Ukranian military. Coincidentally, the plane's passengers and crew were all Israeli citizens. Seems a little wierd when something like that happens over Ukraine. Not the friendliest place for Jews.
How about this coincidence? Three unexplained (or difficult to explain plane crashes in the last decade-ALL FROM KENNEDY!!Flight 800 out on LIThat Swissair flight in Nova ScotiaAnd now this one I was never satisfied about the explanation for flight 800. It was like they fitted an explanation to fit the facts. Also both Lockerbie Scotland and the World Trade Center is proof that Bin Ladin has sacrificed planes in the past. And don't get me started on that Russian plane filled with Israelis supposedly shot down by Ukrainian troops by accident just days after Sept 11.
How about this coincidence? Three unexplained (or difficult to explain plane crashes in the last decade-ALL FROM KENNEDY!!
Flight 800 out on LI
That Swissair flight in Nova Scotia
And now this one
Make it four. There also was the Egypt Air plane that crashed in the ocean, supposedly a deliberate act by the pilot.
It may say more about the maitenance of jets operating out of JFK (except for the last incident) than anything else. But unlike the other three crashes, which occured over the ocean, since this crash took place on land and the main sections of the plane were relatively intact, determining the cause of the crash should be far easier than with the others.
As for this crash "taking place on land" -- if things happened half a second either way ahead/behind what they did, the plane would have been in water.
But pretty shallow water based on direction of takeoff and compared to the other three crashes. Salvage would have been far easier (and if it had happened about two minutes later, the plane would have been over Red Hook and the Atlantic Highlands)
I definitely think that was related to terrorism however my post meant the coincidence that the three unexplained crashes all left from JFK. By the way, if this was terrorism I assume they expected the plane to crash into the ocean like the other two. Rockaway is such a narrow island.
Hmmm...three airplanes out of ten years worth of flights. And how many planes take off from JFK on an average day? The average person's driving & vehicle maintenance records should be so good...
>> It was like they fitted an explanation to fit the facts <<
Umm...that's what they're supposed to do. Would you rather they concocted "facts" to fit your preferred explanation?
To paraphrase A. C. Doyle: When investigating a mystery, one must gather the available facts and eliminate the impossible. Once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever explanation is left -- however improbable -- must be the truth.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
let me say this. it was an accident because if it were terrorism then the terrorist would sabotage every plane that lefte kennedy and you would see everyone of them that left fall like flies.
I don't know about that...Pan Am 183 was the works of a terrorist, and that was the only plane that was bombed in that incident. -Nick
I heard there was "foreign material" in one or both of the engines, which means that a flock of birds sucked into the engine(s) could have caused the engine(s) to explode. It's definitely an accident.
I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often with the airport next to a goddam bird sanctuary*!!
___________________
Wildlife preserve, same difference!
I thought the engines were made so birds could not interfere with them. If something did get stuck in the engine, it is more likely to be a piece of metal. -Nick
....uh, like a mechanic's wrench?
I used to work for a major regional airline at a smaller airport out west, and after the last flight came in, we'd take the baggage tractor out onto the runway and look for tools. Amazing what we found out there!!
It is high time we put people's lives a priority, not "saving the birds". You could poison bait the area all the birds will be gone, or an even more low-tech way... hunt them!
Pigeons should be hunted like in the old days, they are disgusting and make a mess (the winged rats are all over Flushing).
My dad told me that there was a uniform and a truck reported missing last week from Newark. Makes you wonder...and plus, if it was terrorism, with all the "false", or rather uneventful warnings the Bush admins have been giving us, and now this happening. It wouldn't look good on Bush if he said in essence, "Whoops, we didn't know this time, my bad" Whatever, accidents do happen, this one seems more coincedental, though in my opinion, more of a intention by a terrorist group.
That's why I'll stick to trains. Yes, you could hijack a train and hold hostages, but you cannot force a train to go where it's not supposed to go. Also, a train collision is more survivable than a plane crash. I'm sure the government will give the airlines a few more billion until they get back on their feet. When Amtrak has an accident, they get nothing but ridicule. Can't even remember the last major train disaster. Pity for all those who have died in the last few months: Ultimate and unlimited pity and sorrow. Pity for the airline industry: None. I even saw a documentary on TV that said some inspector wrote a letter a few months before Sept. 11 saying that Boston had terrible security and was an accident waiting to happen. I won't be seeing Europe until they build one hell of a rail tunnel or bridge.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes, these recent incidents were tragic. But I wouldn't trade my hundreds of domestic flights... and two dozen overseas flights for anything. I've had the chance to enjoy the rails of Paris, London, Amsterdam, Sydney, Bangkok, Tokyo, Singapore, and more.
It's easy (and human) to focus on the dangers and risk, but in the end, the most dangerous part of flying is STILL the drive to the airport.
If you REALLY wanted to travel in the safest surface mode, based upon passenger-miles, you'd always ride in a school bus. And you'd NEVER cross the street to get on it!
I won't speculate on what caused the crash, but with 5 crashes in the last few months, one of them being an accident isn't improbable.
When was the last train hijacked to Cuba?
I'll guess that I'll be the one to say it, this tragety will probably be a shot in the arm for Amtrak and pro-Amtrak legislation. Good timing as we are almost upon the big holiday travel push (also good that I reserved my seat two weeks ago). Anyway, if the American public didn't have enough evidence already maybe this event will get it through their thick little skulls, airplanes and airlines are evil. The public has been abused, delayed, bumped, overcrowded, hijaked and now crashed. Hopefully some of them will wake up and consider rail travel.
Maybe Amtrak could try a more blunt form of Advertising.
"Hi, I'm Tod Glickman and I use Amtrak's new ACELA Express. Why you ask? Because no one can hijack it and ram in into a tall building. ACELA only goes where the rails let it go. It physically can't be done."
or:
"Hi, I'm Tod Glickman and I use Amtrak's new ACELA Express. Why you ask? Because ACELA can't plumet to earth and explode in a giant fireball. ACELA is always connected to the ground and is 100% electric powered with no volitile fuels to catch fire."
I'm not even touching the service arguements.
Now all we need is to get people out of their cars. Humph, if 50,000 deaths a year won't do it I don't know what will.
You misspelled Todd's name as Tod. He's gonna be pissed !!
"Bill Newkirk"
I wouldn't use the second one for advertising purposes. Remember that SLAMTRAK got that nickname for a reason.
Please tell me about that reason as I just think the only reason is that it sounds funny.
Heh. It is funny!!!!
What I get a kick out of, is even employees call it that.
I've heard the Chicago crews call the 8 and wait GE's "mud missles", cause they're always ending up in a ditch.
Amtrak's reputation for accidents, deserved or not (and IMHO, there are a few accidents of theirs that make them fair game), is the butt of plenty of joking by everyone, not just Jay Leno. Dave Letterman uses them as material too, as does everyone else.
Most of Amtrak's accidents aren't fatal, thus they're open game.
And Amtrak's generally sloppy operating practices aren't helping their rep, either.
AMCRASH!!!
Just remember that more people died on this AA crash than passengers during all of Amtrak's 30 year history.
So what? more people die each day in car accidents than on all comercial planes in one year
Should we ban cars, too?
Hell, more people die each year in the bathtub than do on Amtrak.
Ban bathubs?
More people die walking across the street than do on Amtrak.
Ban walking?
I could go on and on and on, but there's no point to it.
BTW, in terms of pssenger fatalities per 100,000 miles, flying is still safer than Amtrak.
So what? more people die each day in car accidents than on all comercial planes in one year
No they don't.
What about passenger fatalities per journey?
Or how about "Am not on Track!" :-) -Nick
ah repeating history--Seaboard Air Line ran ads promoting their New York--Florida trains in the era of hijackings to Cuba with the same theme. They also pointed out lack of seatbels(in an era when driving did not include buckling up)
I think that we should build a rail tunnel from Florida to Cuba, Cuba to Haiti and the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico.
Now, do we build the tunnel to Jamaica from Cuba or Haiti?
Why stop there? I think we should built an underwater line from Puerto Rico to Venezuela stopping at all the Lesser Antilles (Windward AND Leeward).
I'm waiting for the Bering Strait tunnel to offer a one seat ride from Seattle to Vladivostok.
Mark
..I use Amtrak's new ACELA Express... Because no one can hijack it and ram in into a tall building
**********************************************************************
Evidently someone must have missed "Silverstreak."
Anybody notice the signs for the 1&2 were switched to the express side at 72nd street and the number 3 sign was switched over to the local side. A friend and I were taking a saturday night subway ride, and noticed the sign change. Does this mean what I think it means, the ride from 240st all the way to New Lots is a long one, and making local stops all the way sounds pretty stressing, also the same thing can be said with the White Plains line.
They weren't switched, just human error.
...or another
"express trains stop at the local track"
spinup.
Noticed signs at Atlantic Ave. IRT station in B'klyn for '1' and '2' service -- no '3.' I didn't realize the '1' extension was permanent enough to warrant signage-alteration.
Unfortunately, permanent for a long time. The damage at Cortlandt Street is severe and even if they were able to open the tunnel, which is heavily damaged, Cortlandt would stay closed because there is nothing to walk out to. How about, when things start to get better around there, but before the tunnel is repaired, they run some train down from Lexington, around South Ferry to terminate at Rector Street?
Unfortunately, permanent for a long time. The damage at Cortlandt Street is severe and even if they were able to open the tunnel, which is heavily damaged, Cortlandt would stay closed because there is nothing to walk out to. How about, when things start to get better around there, but before the tunnel is repaired, they run some train down from Lexington, around South Ferry to terminate at Rector Street?
Re/putting in a crossover on former 1 track south of Chambers, see separate thread entitled "Hope for the # 1 Train?" ....
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=280490
Comments on possibility of doing a "buttonhook" arrangement down the Lex line around at South Ferry to Rector? I gotta wonder how much use this would. The N/R Rector Street station, now open again, is just a few hundred feet away and 1/2/3 riders can change to N/R at Times Square. Not hugely convenient (esp since N/R run local between Times Square & Canal while Q/W run express) but doable.
All the signs have been updated (or are being updated). My home station, 86th Street, now has 1/2 bullets rather than 1/9 bullets, and there are brand new 1/2 signs on the platforms.
Or should I say hope for the T/Os who hate that extended run.
I heard from a trusted source and also the Transit Transit NYCT TV show that the TA is looking into installing a crossover south of the Chambers St. station so #1 trains could be turned there, returning normal local and express service to 7th Ave.
KEEP YOU FINGERS CROSSED !
Bill "Newkirk"
Now that makes a lot of since. And it won't cost a lot just to install a cross over South of Chambers.
Mr rt__:^)
Is there enough track to accommodate a 10-car train before the plug?
Oh, excellent, just excellent. "Normal local and express service" -- that means 12-minute rush hour waits for the local. That's clearly sufficient for those 43.5 million of us who use the local stops each year. Surely that number pales in comparison to the (apparently) billions and billions of Bronx-to-Brooklyn riders who can't afford to sit on a train for eight extra minutes yet don't feel compelled to use the 5, which is faster in any case. I'm honored to subsidize their rides at my expense. After all, I live in Manhattan, so I don't count.
Yes, I have heard the same thing from another source of mines up at the TA.
I believe now they are probably doing a study as to how this will work out. The other thing is.......How long will it take them to get the switch in. A Week....A Month.........
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Temporary TransiTALK
It'll take 2 years just to get the contract drawn up and approved.
Confirms what I heard on Oct. 25 on WINS = that #1 would evntually be turning at Chambers.
Will the 9 return? The 9 signs have been covered over at stations on Upper Bway.
I hope not. Skip-stop is annoying.
H O P E.
Although going to South Ferry won't be the same, but it will definitely bring some normalcy on the Broadway/7th Ave Locals 1/9. I am used to riding the 2 or 3 from Brooklyn and riding express all the way to Penn Station. Miss the 1/9 from South Ferry, and I hope it will return faster than mentioned.
I use Amtrak's train status page to monitor train performance of certain trains. Lately, the system has been going crazy rejecting VALID city codes.
If the reservation system is just as screwed up, Amtrak will be running empty trains because Amtrak reservation agents can't put passengers on the trains.
Michael
While waiting for an A train to the Rockaways yesterday, we observed a set of R44's that the motorman had to enable the doors. Two yello buttons were placed on top of the dash and he had to push the one next to the platform in order for the doors to open.
Is this a test on the R44's or are all R44's going to get door enablers??
I don't know, but I can vouch for your sanity -- I rode on a similarly equipped R-44 (A to Rockaway Park) two months ago.
All cars are going to get them over the next year for when I been hearing. As for now most R44's and all R42 that were not done be CIY have them. I even seen two pairs of slant R40's with them.
Robert
I understand the idea of door enablers but if something happened and the T/O could not push the button (or the button does not work), how does the C/R get the doors open in this case or in the case of an emergency?
You know the ol' saying.........We'd Be Assed Out!
What was the "REAL" Purpose behind the enablers?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
The assumtion is that the conductor won't be able to open the doors on the wrong side. Then again, the T/O can hit the wrong button, or not at all. On the only train with enablers I was on (a R42 M in June), he forgot to hit it several times.
Interesting about 'enablers.' Dealing with Redbirds...and the system is basic...the master controller has a big relay that prevents the train from moving if any door is not secured and there is a control button to bypass this feature. The enabler is an opposite safety device...the T/O must pay attention to his job to be sure that the platform and passenger safety is assured. The C/R can only open the doors on the side of the train he is standing on left and right of him...if the T/O pushes the wrong button, nothing happens and passengers get angry. The C/R cannot open the doors on the opposite side (unless he has eight foot arms.) Cars are 'zoned' as to where the C/R will operate....interesting to see what WILL happen if door enablers FAIL and train operation is halted (I think there must be a bypass feature cuz busted trains is bad politics.) Peter
In most emergencies you want the doors closed anyway until you are at a safe location.
If the T/O has a heart attack, the doors will stay closed, there is a super secret way to overcome this (sort of) but only a C/R that was a T/O or RCI would attempt it. There is at least one other way to do it but I don't know it.
If the controller fails in certain ways i believe the C/R gets full control back. If not, just going to power off should send control back to the C/R.
Doesn't centering the reverse key disable the enablers?
Yes it does.
-Mark
>If not, just going to power off should send control back to the C/R.
I should have said that. I was trying to avoid a 'whats a reverser' question.
I am not a fan of these "door enablers", they will just slow things down more. I really think between this and wheel detectors it's an overkill on safety.
Monday which is my 'Friday' going home from Bedford the D train C/R opened twice on the wrong side. That lost all the time enablers would have cost in a week.
They really are not so bad, as a T/O I am a bit slow on the 44's as I operate lefty but there are many careful C/R's, I only hold up the super fast ones that open as we are stopping.
The C/R open up twice on the wrong side. At what stops. You are luckey no one call up on you guy about it. I was at 95th street two weeks ago when a new T/O open up on the wrong side twice on a 4 car R46 shuttle train. The C/R dezoned and was walking over to the back to openup and he took i apond himself and rezoned and open up agance the wall. Someone on the Paltform ran to the Disp. office and mad a complant about it. Both the T/O and C/R went downtown for it.
Robert
It was at 'safe' stations Fordham and 145 th. It was not my guy otherwise I would be distressed as to what to to, I was riding as a passenger. And supervision was on board!
The T/O did cover his ass sort of. He kept saying open up the front not open the otherside so he could try to prestend no knowledge. The second time he started to lose it and said "THE OTHER SIDE". He should have used the IC and not the PA.
Officially I don't think the TA takes it less seriously that there is a platform under you.
A new T/O? A big hairy guy?
Opening up on the wrong side weather or not there a Platform is still taking very seriously by the TA. It can lead to at less a one week sepection for both the T/O and C/R, that is if the T/O dose not bang his C/R and they get court covering it up.
As for the T/O being a big hairy guy thats was not me. I am also a big hairy guy.
Robert
>As for the T/O being a big hairy guy thats was not me. I am also a >big hairy guy.
No, this is Sasquatch hairy, missing link hairy, hairy palms and feet. You could knit a sweater from the back hair hairy. There are bird living on his chest hairy.
Besides you are not new.
As for the topic, supervision was on the train and did squat and I was off duty with no battery. I told the T/O at 34th that supervision was on and got off at 59th and went about my stuff.
If there was no platform at any stop they would have not needed me to call in and if they did it at 59th they would have gotten nailed too.
The passengers acted like it was not an uncommon occurance.
Not all 44's will get them. OPTO cars aren't allowed to have enablers so there should be a dedicated group of cars for OPTO that won't get the enablers.
Shouldn't there be a lockout or are T/Os not trustworthy enough? What happens if an R44 OPTO gets shuffled onto a regular line? I understand the safety issue but isn't this going to get like the blue stripe issue on the R142s?? Peter
If an enabler train happens to enter OPTO service, then either the T/O has to center the reverser at every stop, or he has to enable himself at every stop. Neither option is very attractive.
I'm thinking about the shop end of this when 'every' train has it. One step fowards.........Peter
That's OK, the way things seem to be going, the OPTO operator will also have to sign their own train orders and time cards. Firing off your own enabler and then doing the paperwork before closing up should allow the timer ahead to clear. :)
I have seen Enabler trains on the Rock Park Shuttle before. since all the stops are on the Oper. side then he can use it easly.
Robert
That train was not supposed to run on the shuttle.
I was wondering about that too. That seat on 44 will cause an injury eventually.
That box on the slants is in a very poor place. I have no idea where the TA can find a decent place to put those stupid things on an R32 or a slant.
Two yellow buttons were placed on top of the dash and he had to push the one next to the platform in order for the doors to open.
Can you explain this to me? Such as the location in relevence to the train, location of the buttons, and the purpose of a door enabler?
I've been on an A train several times and the conductors have closed the doors the normal way.
Many months ago, I rode an A train at Canal St. and saw that the first car was empty. The lights and the LCD's were still on, but the doors wouldn't open ONLY IN THE FIRST CAR when the T/A opened the train's doors.
Can anyone provide a decent explanation as to why this happened?
Any reason the doors might not have worked?
The purpose of the door enabler is to prevent "wrong side" door openings caused by inattention by C/R's. By the T/O pressing the corresponding door enabler button, it completes the circuit allowing the C/R to open the doors on that side only. If the T/O fails to activate the enabler, the doors will remain closed no matter what action the C/R takes. Also, single crew doors will not open unless enabled.
As far as the first car not opening, there was an unsafe condition in that car requiring it to be isolated (closed off) from the passengers. Broken or missing glass, blood, human waste, etc. are reasons to isolate a car.
what is the best subway line
no names just numbers or letters
The (7).
:-) Andrew
The dynamite "D" (since the bridge flip) best line in the system...
I hope they never fix that bridge.
Peace,
ANDEE
The dynamite "D" (since the bridge flip) best line in the system...
I hope they never fix that bridge.
Don't worry, they won't.
Speak for yourself. I love the full length D. Once all 4 tracks on the bridge are up and running, the D might actually move more than 5 MPH south of 34th St. Oh wait, the hippos are there forever. Cancel that idea.
They won't be there forever. They'll be retired eventually in another 20-30 years or so.
Q - Brighton Express
L - 14th-Canarsie Local
G - Queens-Brooklyn Crosstown
The G sucks. You gotta wait too long in a deserted damp station to get a train. and once you do, you gotta transfer to get anywhere.
The G has to be the worst line now, and it will be even worse t=when the new survice pattern starts.
2,4,5,6,N,R,W,L,A
the 2,4,6,7 on the A Division, ESPECIALLY THE 4. on the B division the E,F, R, W,A, AND ALL SHUTTLES. I am starting to like the R more because i hang out with a T/O who operates it.
if i became a T/O tomorrow placed on A Division i would ask for the 4 first. on the B Division the F. its mainly the F and 4. but Trains are like potato chips. U can't love just one! lol
J/M/Z and L!!!!!! GO EASTERN DIVISION!!!!!!!!!!!
J/M/Z & L are the best (The Browns), but it would be nice to add a little Orange to that mix from 6th Avenue!
Why not run a brown up the Sixth Avenue? The old KK/K was an Eastern Division train running on the IND, not the other way around...
It would be colorful, but I think that once it becomes a 6th Avenue Train, it becomes an orange train.
Also a good point, as the color trunks are based on Manhattan, not Brooklyn.
The NX
The D all the way. Honorable mention goes to the 2,4 & 5.
Wayne
The pre-9/11 #1.
Are you kidding?
No, I really did like it. Very few timers, nice straight runs, fast (for a local), good equipment and lots of cute women in the summer. Supervision is OK, good food at VC for lunch and after 8 hours, I can go home.
It took you long enough to respond that it is really the Brighton because it took you to Ebbets Field
The Old Bronx Park Third Avenue line with those wonderful Low v's/1939 WF cars.
Or the Q Cars
Are they still running the #1 on 5 minute headways all the way to New Lots? My railfanning on Monday caught the most hilarious scene at Franklin Ave, as 3 #1 trains and 3 #4 expresses all pulled out of Franklin Ave empty, as the platform filled to capacity waiting for ANYTHING that would run to Flatbush.
Since New Lots now has a service surplus, why aren't occasional 1's diverted to Flatbush?
Good question. Perhaps delayed commuters are preferable to confused ones. Couldn't they balance 1/2 service to 7.5 minute headways each?
Not without starving Broadway north of 96th or overserving the Lenox and Bronx lines. (In theory, the 1/2 distribution should make no difference between Franklin and 96th. In practice, many 2's run express even though they're all supposed to run local.)
I saw a few of those last month. Unfortunately, they were all headed in the opposite direction.
I was probably the one standing on the opposite platform cursing.
Why not restore express service north of Times Sq? The only reason for the #2 to run local is so the express platforms at 14th St can be used as terminals for the #3.
Because, for the thousandth time, the local stations between 42nd and 96th are among the busiest in the system. My home station, in a residential area, is the 55th busiest station (as of 1999). It's a modest local station, with no transfers and with two staircases to the street on the northbound side and three (one open rush hours only) on the southbound side. It has 80% of the traffic of 179th Street on the F. It is has more traffic than South Ferry (in 1999 -- anything's more popular than SF right now!). It has more traffic than the entire Dyre Avenue branch. And it's not even the busiest local station on the line.
Yes, the 2 could run express. But people need to get home, and the express doesn't help many of them. The more trains are sent express, the larger the crowds on the narrow 72nd Street platforms grow. When only the 1 runs local, they get so crowded that half of them are forced to bypass the local stops. Running the 2 express would save a few minutes for some riders -- and would delay many more riders even more.
Geez, and I see B and C trains pulling into 59th St. southbound with plenty of seats still available. Why do so many West Siders choose the IRT over the CPW IND?
Geez, and I see B and C trains pulling into 59th St. southbound with plenty of seats still available. Why do so many West Siders choose the IRT over the CPW IND?
Because the headways are shorter? Like usually a LOT shorter? Also, it runs under Broadway north of Columbus Cirlce, the main drag. CPW is a long way away from most of the UWS.
And further downtown the stations are further apart. People want to go to the nearest station.
...And hardly anyone works west of 7th, and the transfers from the 8th ave are lousy, especially at times square, must be a quarter mile walk, especially if you get off the wrong end of the train.
I've never understood the IND lines. 8th ave only has 3 local only stops below 59th, and the 6th only had 2. What is the point?
I'd rather stand in a crowded train than wait on a diserted platform.
I'd rather stand in a crowded train than wait on a deserted platform.
There you have it.
The way to get utilization up on the CPW lines, of course, is to build 50-story office towers on the east side of CPW. But those damned NIMBYs might complain ....
They did that on purpose. The IND planners didn't want to have a mass exodus of people from local to express trains at every express stop like on the BMT and IRT. They wanted to keep people on the same trains to their final destinations. They didn't want riders to see any advantages in changing to an express except if they lived far from Midtown or Lower Manhattan (which there aren't on the IND). So all the long express runs on the IND are in the outer boros or north of 59th Street and only a few local stops exist below 59th.
That is also why the Penn Station stop on the 8th avenue is set up the way it is. They figured Penn Station would be a busy Station, and they didn't want to make things worse by people changing from the locals to the express, so you can't easily change trains there.
That is also why the Penn Station stop on the 8th avenue is set up the way it is. They figured Penn Station would be a busy Station, and they didn't want to make things worse by people changing from the locals to the express, so you can't easily change trains there.
Same for 7th Avenue IRT stop at Penn as well.
Simple ... one side of CPW is buildings (and rather exclusively expensive ones at that) and the other side is park. The IRT on the other hand runs down the middle of a street where there's rentals on either side. More folks live by the IRT ...
Because the IRT is a shorter walk for everyone between Riverside and just west of Columbus.
Because the IRT runs under a major commercial street.
Because the IRT has better midtown transfers.
Because, even with the messed up service that is the norm, IRT service is much more frequent.
Because the IND CPW stations are dreary and a little creepy.
I see. Basically, the IRT is chosen for convenience over the IND. Perhaps west siders should understand that east siders would love to actually have a choice between 2 major trunk lines. If West side IRT riders don't like the overcrowded local trains, then maybe they should learn to walk a few extra blocks.
I see. Basically, the IRT is chosen for convenience over the IND. Perhaps west siders should understand that east siders would love to actually have a choice between 2 major trunk lines. If West side IRT riders don't like the overcrowded local trains, then maybe they should learn to walk a few extra blocks.
But in much of the UWS it's not just "a few" extra blocks. Remember Broadway angles west til it's SEVERAL avenues west of CPW, and those are long blocks.
As for the East Side, Lex and 2nd are just 2 long blocks apart but each has people living on BOTH sides of it. I'd say living on Third Avenue would be pretty sweet if they ever get the Second Ave Subway built. But I'm not holding my breath.
I take it you're an Eastsider? So, to make the comparison apt, would you walk from, say, First Avenue to FIFTH Avenue to ride downtown? Esp if the stations were further apart? Or would you grit your teeth, walk to Lex and curse the crowds?
We've already established that Manhattan riders subsidize outer borough riders. Now you're suggesting that we shouldn't even use the stations we find most convenient. Maybe we should just stay home. Oh, no, then the fare might have to go up to support everybody else.
Do you walk an extra ten minutes to reach a train that runs less often and doesn't serve as many useful points? (Incidentally, I do generally walk to CPW when I want the B/C. I wouldn't do it every day, though.)
I would love to see two East Side lines, but that would cost a lot of money. A service improvement here on the West Side would cost a good deal less. The track capacity is there, waiting to be used.
I agree. But I hate it when some people think that the entire subway system is their personal taxi. Some act offended when they are asked to endure a slight inconvienence. I've walked from Broadway to CPW, and unless it's 50 below or there's a blizzard blowing, the distance isn't great. I have often noticed at Columbus Circle that there is a steady flow of people transferring from downtown IRT locals to access the A/B/C/D lines. If the bulk of these people would simply walk to CPW for the B and C, the crowding could be eased without the expenditure of one dime in extra service.
If the bulk of these people would simply walk to CPW for the B and C, the crowding could be eased without the expenditure of one dime in extra service.
Yeah, but people DON'T ... unless you incent them. Lower fares on entry on CPW turnstyles, and you might get some change in behavior.
IMHO, it's a remnant of the bad side of "civil service mentality" to complain about what people "ought" to do instead of providing services that match what people DO do.
Well, civil services aren't the same as private businesses. The customer isn't always right. People should adjust to the realities, rather than the subway system itself, when funding and infrastructure problems exist.
Well, civil services aren't the same as private businesses. The customer isn't always right. People should adjust to the realities, rather than the subway system itself, when funding and infrastructure problems exist.
There's a major difference between customers/riders/users complaining about things that can't be fixed (the missing Second Avenue Subway) and things that are well within the capability of the TA to fix, with a little investigation and initiative.
I think Chris's original point (much discussed here) is that post-9/11 West Side IRT service is far from optimal. The TA *can* address that, and probably will in the long term.
My point, though, was that a lot of us SubTalkers tend to want people to behave differently than they do naturally. Fighting the will of the market without offering incentives (of whatever kind) to behave differently is fruitless, hopeless and deeply frustrating.
Take MetroCard. IIRC, less than 20 percent of riders used it until the discounts came into being. Shazam! An incentive to use MetroCard. I'm not sure I've seen anyone use a token in the last six months. (And the MVMs are damn good, too.) Incentive ---> change in behavior.
An easier way to insure 100% usage of the metrocard would have been the complete and unconditional termination of token service. But since civil services are run by politicians, that was never gonna happen.
You know, I hated what Rober Moses did to this city, but sometimes this city was better off when people with pet peeves were sternly told "there's nothing you can do about it, please adjust". We've gone from one extreme to the other.
Where is the additional track capacity? Can the #1 local tracks run more trains per hour than they did before 9/11? Or were you suggesting a new West Side line on Amtrak's Empire Corridor right-of-way? With an already existing ROW, that line would probably cost a lot less than the 2nd Avenue subway which would have to be built almost from square one.
I always wondered why the CPW line is underused, but from what I've read here I can understand exactly why. But would a new West Side line fly (with our elected officials), with two existing lines already there?
The West Side IRT local tracks have never operated at maximum capacity as long as I've been alive. Those 10-minute gaps during rush hour? There's your spare capacity. According to the pre-9/11 timetables, the northbound local tracks carry about 12 tph in the afternoon rush hour while the express tracks carry about 20 tph.
new West Side line on Amtrak's Empire Corridor right-of-way? With an already existing ROW, that line would probably cost a lot less than the 2nd Avenue subway which would have to be built almost from square one
Probably enough trackage to do it, but remember that runs largely under Riverside Park -- so you have the same problem as the CPW lines on the other side (no buildings on one side of the subway). Plus that line only goes to about 34th Street. Then what do you do with it?
Not to mention that limited $$$ should go to 2nd Ave WAY before a third west side line.
Well I would have the new line turn east at 42nd Street and connect into the 7 line at Times Square - it would be an extension of the 7 train. That would make it a good alternative to the West Side IRT.
But I agree with you - the East Side should get the 2nd Avenue subway well before the West Side gets a third line.
Good point about why you can't run only one Broadway local, I had not even thought of that.
Under normal circumstances, there are 2 Bway locals (1 and 9 routes).
Wrong. The 1 and 9 were not distinct routes. They used different numbers to distinguish trains that stopped at 145th et. al. from trains that stopped at 157th et. al. The combined 1/9 was scheduled to arrive somewhat more frequently than either the 2 or the 3 but less frequently than the combined 2/3. In practice, alternate rush hour 1/9's ran express between 42nd and 96th, so those busy local stations had half the service of, say, little-used 191st, much less service than the Lenox Avenue stations, and a bit less service than Dyre Avenue (if you'll recall, I mentioned that my home station, a local station on the 1, serves more passengers than the entire Dyre Avenue branch -- that is, more people pass through the doors of a local train at 86th Street than occupy an entire 5 train north of E. 180th Street).
Another curiosity about the 1, when the skip/stop was in effect, 191 was an all stop, while Dyckman was a #1 only. Since the suspension (hopefully termination) of the #9, I've notice MANY more people exit the train at Dyckman. I thought that before, but could not be sure as those getting off at 191 where only half the people using the station (the #9 dropping off the other half). But it is now clear that the volumn of people at Dyckman is much higher than 191. Which leads to a quesiton, why was Dyckman a skipped stop while 191 was an all stop?????? It also seems as Dyckman is a transportation island in that area, there does not seem to by any bus transfers near the station.
See this post for the 1999 counts.
That year, at least, 191st was just barely more popular than Dyckman.
The greater surprise is 181st, which was far less popular than Dyckman. And, of course, 145th and 157th, which were more popular than any stations to their north (except 231st, which beat out 145th but not 157th, and probably 168th), yet they got stuck with skip-stop service that didn't even save them any time once the train arrived.
I think a lot of what you have said makes it even more apparent that skipstop on the 1 was a bad idea and one that I hope never comes back.
Obviously, you're very familiar with the Broadway-7th Ave line. I'm a little curious, if you ran the MTA, how would you run the entire IRT Broadway-7th Ave line in light of the WTC disaster? Don't worry, I'm not gonna steal your idea.
I'm by no means an expert on the line. It just happens to take me home. I don't even ride it every day. I'm sure everyday rush hour commuters have a lot more to say about it than I do. (T/O's and C/R's on the line, of course, see much more of the line than any passenger, although from a different perspective.)
I also don't have all the numbers I need to make a full analysis, nor do I have the proper training. Nonetheless, I can put forth my ideas (which I'm sure others will promptly knock into the ground).
Let's start by putting the facts on the ground. All of the stations, local and express alike, between 34th Street and 96th Street are very, very busy, probably busier than most express stations systemwide -- all serving over 5 million passengers per year (in 1999), except 79th Street, with just over 4.9 million. The stations between 103rd Street and 137th Street serve between 3.5 and 4 million passengers, except 125th Street, with under 2 million. Stations further north, as well as Lenox Avenue, Bronx, and Brooklyn stations are less popular; local stations south of 34th Street vary but are all less popular than any in the 34-96 group.
The pre-9/11 service arrangement was seriously flawed in that the same number of trains served 50th Street (7.4 million passengers per year) as 242nd Street (1.6 million). This means that either 50th Street is grossly underserved or 242nd Street is grossly overserved -- or both. Furthermore, due to the inevitable crowding, many trains scheduled and signed as locals in fact made express stops only through the busiest section of the line -- most often during rush hour (when this happened nearly every day) but even occasionally on weekends, when local station usage is still high. (Even late at night, trains are often crowded between 42nd and 96th.)
The post-9/11 arrangement is better, with more local service between 42nd and 96th. Again, however, scheduled locals -- this time typically the 2 -- often run express past the busiest local stations (even if they make all local stops at the comparitively quiet stations below 34th).
As others have pointed out, it doesn't seem to make sense to run the 2 through to Brooklyn while terminating the 3 at 14th Street, giving the 2 a very long trip and the 3 a very short one. Otherwise, I can't come up with anything much better than what the TA has developed. I'd run the 1 between 242nd Street and Flatbush Avenue (local), the 2 between 241st Street and 14th Street (express south of 96th), and the 3 between Lenox Terminal and New Lots Avenue (local). Nights, the 2 would run local to Chambers Street. The local tracks between 42nd and 96th should be filled to capacity, and all trains on them should make all stops. Given patterns north of 96th, I'd suggest that about one-third of the locals be 3's, with some 1's being sent to New Lots rather than Flatbush. Most importantly, every 1 and 3 should stop at every local station between 42nd and 96th. If a train is running behind schedule, corrective action should be taken elsewhere on the line, where fewer passengers will be affected. (This last point seems obvious to me! I don't know why the TA just doesn't get it.)
Eventually, the IRT local below Chambers Street will be repaired, and then the 1 will stop serving Brooklyn. The local stations between 42nd and 96th should still be served to maximum capacity. Unfortunately, only South Ferry is suitable for turning southbound trains, but northbound trains can turn at 137th Street. I'd suggest running the line at maximum capacity south of 137th, with alternate trains continuing to 242nd. Again, the stations between 42nd and 96th are to be served by every single 1 train unless doing so is absolutely impossible; adjustments, if necessary, should be made elsewhere on the line. Skip-stop service should not be reinstated.
Improvements should also be made upstairs. The M104 bus route, which serves the same corridor as the 1 between 42nd and 125th, also draws crowds. Despite this, it has never offered limited service. A new weekday M104 Limited service should be introduced, supplementing the current local M104 schedule, making limited stops between Grand Central and 125th. Most subway riders currently find the bus an unattractive option since it's invariably much slower and it's most likely no less crowded. There is significant precedent for limited-stop service on the same street as a subway line.
That sounds like a great idea. Generally in Manhattan, the 2 tends to be more crowded than the 3 because it runs in the Bronx. Running the 3 local would help those poor souls on the uptown local stops, while not slowing down service for those heading to/from the Bronx. I wonder why the MTA hasn't thought of that. Turning trains around at 137 Street when normal service is restored also is a good idea. I've noticed going uptown during rush hours that 1 and 9 trains aren't as crowded north of 137.
As for the buses, the MTA should run limited bus service on the 104, if it would help with the mess on the Broadway Line; although personally, I would always take a subway over a bus.
The M104 is slow as hell. You can almost walk faster. It stops at every other block, and you can be sure that someone is going to either get on or off at every stop. Even up above 110 where I live. Limited definitely makes sense there.
While running 2's local has helped David a little, it has been horrible for those of us on broadway north of 96th, because it has meant a cut back on 1's. The 1's are very crowded, and the 96th st platform is crowded in evening rush with people getting off of the Lenox trains, and having nothing for a while to transfer to.
David's suggestion of running more trains by running some of them over shorter distances sounds good to me.
The 7th Ave local does seem to have a major problem with getting clogged up. You'll have one really crowded train moving extremely slow, and then several trains coasting behind it. This creates a huge pocket in front of the slow car where 20 minutes can pass with no trains in rush hour. Which means even more crowded platforms, and people more desperate to get on.
That is when they usually take the crowded train and start running it express. They are hoping to close the gap, but I don't think it works, especially since the train usually has to crawl through the local stations, the people on the platform are ready to play Indiana Jones and jump on the caboose! What they should do is take an express train, have it pass the slow local, and shift it to the local track.
Plus: arrest door holders! Forget pushers, pull them OUT of the train!
Having worked on the 1 line for the better part of 4 years, I would be willing to stake the contents of my wallet that, barring a train going out of service or any of the recent "close down the system, somebody dropped a powdered doughnut" scares, that you have never seen a 20 minute wait for a local on B'way during rush hour.
Too many times, I have had people on the platforms screaming that they have been waiting for some ridiculous amount of time for a train, while I can see the taillights of my leader. I've also been told that the last 4 (pick any number, really) trains didn't stop here, when I know full well that they did.
Thanks for the comments. I live three local stops south of you. We're practically neighbors.
I don't know why the TA has never even experimented with an M104 Limited. There's an all-day M5 Limited south of 72nd. There have been M7 and M10 Limiteds in the past. Never the M104, which gets larger crowds than the M5, M7, or M10. (At least you also have the M4 and M60. We have only the M104.) The problem isn't traffic on Broadway; it's all the stops. (I still remember a ride on the front steps of an M104 around 1990, the door pressing against my back, when the driver informed us that a service cut was going into effect the following week.)
I had a feeling there were fewer 1's than before; thanks for confirming it. I've noticed, especially on Sunday mornings (when, for no reason that I can fathom, the 2 invariably bypasses my station on the express track), that waits for the 1 can be quite long. The problem, I suppose, is that the New Lots branch doesn't need as much service as the old 1/9 provided, so service was cut. I don't know why the TA can't keep Manhattan service as it was, with some 1's running to Flatbush to better distribute Brooklyn trains.
The bunching problem yields dangerous crowding on the narrow 72nd Street platform. The first train to arrive on the local track invariably runs express. It's still signed as a local, though, so lots of folks pile on, only to pile right off. Others congregate by the doors to try to make out the announcements. I have never heard a station announcement on this line regarding bypassed stations. (Normally I agree that door holding is not to be tolerated, but this is an exception.) Very few people actually get on, since almost anyone who wanted to go to 96th or beyond got on one of the four or five trains that have stopped on the express track since the prior local came through. So after a long delay, the train pulls out nearly empty, with another train directly on its tail. And that, right there, is my proof that bypassing stops in this manner saves no time at all -- if the first train was bypassing stops, then what's the second train doing right behind it?
Your idea of rerouting expresses onto the local track to fill gaps makes sense, but it flies in the face of the TA's idea that its task is to move trains rather than passengers. Aside from scheduled GO's and night 2 service, I can think of two times that I've seen expresses on the local track north of 42nd, and one of those times it didn't stop (even though it had somehow swapped places with a 1, which couldn't stop since it was on the express track). Trains can be switched to the local track south of 42nd and south of 72nd.
IINM, you're a recent arrival here. See this thread and this thread for two of my experiences in September. Both of these took place on Sunday evenings, when overcrowding should be unnecessary.
We have some "limited stop" bus service on Staten Island. In my expereince, it didn't help much (particularly along the Victory Blvd stretch east of Forest Ave), and many peopel got on at the ferry, claim not to know it's a limited stop run, and demand to get off at "local" stops...
I switched to the express bus. Even at double the fare, it's a bargain.
Must just be your limited. I ride the S98 and can't ever remember having that problem.
There has been no cutbacks in #1 service. Since the service changes 9 or 10 3 line crews report to V.C. plus 8 jobs have been added on both the A.M and P.M. tours.
According to the schedules for the new pick there are 60 A.M. jobs and 49 P.M. jobs an increase of about 35 to 40 jobs.
From 1996-early 1999, I lived in Yonkers, and rose the 1/9 all the way to Rector Street for my job, almost every day......
The skip-stop didn't seem to work to well as disguised...to keep the trains moving, particularly in the PM rush, the pattern would (as much as 50% of the time) the patternb would be changed on an ad hoc basis... for example, a train would run from 157th to 207th w/o stopping, while the following train would make all stops. It didn't seem to make a differencew whtehr the train was labeled 1 or 9...
I remember one evening, I was at the RF window (beofre they widened the cabs) when we passed 181st Street, people at the platform gave us the finger..!!
Now that I'm back on Staten Island, we really need the South Ferry station back!!
191 was originally a #9 stop but the people that used the station complained loud and long enough that the TA made it an all stop.
Pre 9/11 West side IRT service had almost equal local and express service scheduled. It was identical during the midday hours.
Nonsense! Where did you get that idea? Middays the 1/9 had 12 tph and the 2/3 had 16 tph. Rush hours the 1/9 had 12-13 tph (northbound service in the morning rush had 15 tph) and the 2/3 had 17-20 tph. (These numbers are approximate and are based on the pre-9/11 1/9 timetable, 2 timetable, and 3 timetable.)
Furthermore, in case my posts have been unclear, many 1/9 trains, primarily but not exclusively during rush hours, were severely delayed due to overcrowding, and to make up for lost time they bypassed local stations. I'd estimate that actual northbound local service during the afternoon rush hour averaged about 8 tph if not less. That means that actual express service (all trains that skipped local stops, regardless of track used) was about 24 tph. Only 8 tph served the 33rd, 53rd, 66th, and 55th busiest stations in the system, with annual ridership ranging from 4.9 million to 7.4 million at each station. Each of these stations has greater ridership than the entire Dyre Avenue branch. Do you think 8 tph is adequate?
Besides, what difference does it make what fraction of the service is local? There is insufficient local service. Period. This isn't Queens Boulevard.
In the AM's only 2 sets of #1 trains go to Flatbush. They return as 5 trains. Also a couple of trains turn at Chambers. In the PM's there are a couple of 1's that turn at Chambers. And the 1 run at 5 minutes all day, even at 10:30pm at night.
The 1 is still quite busy at 10:30 at night. The 1 is still quite busy at 12:30 at night. I've been on trains that late with rush hour crowds north of 42nd.
I can tell you from experience that the 1 does not run every five minutes at 10:30 on a Sunday morning. It doesn't even run every ten minutes. And I've yet to see a Sunday morning 2 train on the local tracks at 86th Street, although I've seen many on the express tracks. What's the story there?
I was talking about the weekday. On Sundays, the headways are a little bit longer during the AM, but gets back to the 5-6 minute headway as the day goes on. I cannot answer you about the 2 on the express track. Also the homeless are reclaiming the 1 line as their overnight home as the weather turns colder. Mon night/Tues morn at VC I actually had to look for an "empty" car to sit in for the ride home. But I guess it pales in comparison than the E. Nothing says homeless than the "E" train.
My guess is that with no #3 service, the #2 is routed as a full express at 96th St. The #3 doesn't run on sunday mornings.
Yes it does. According to the pre-9/11 3 schedule, the 7:42 train out of Lenox Terminal is the first to run through.
The 1 has long headways Sunday mornings. Maybe I'm strange but I don't think Sunday morning trains should be SRO. Every time I've taken a Sunday morning 1 since 9/11, it's been SRO. (I have a feeling service was reduced. The 2 is supposed to be filling in the gap but it isn't.)
On 11/4, all northbound trains were running express due to a GO. I was standing on the 86th Street platform as a southbound 2 also went by express. So, instead of two southbound local services and two northbound local services, there was one southbound local service and no northbound local services. Sneaky. On some other lines, when the local is forced to run express in one direction, the express runs local in the other direction to compensate (to an extent). Here, the opposite is done.
I thought 3 service didn't start until 10 AM on Sundays. At least it was in the recent past.
That changed a few years ago. Besides, it's irrelevant -- according to the brand new signs, the 1 and 2 are supposed to make all local stops at all times.
Diamond Q, Wrought-iron S
Wrought iron S?
Franklin Shuttle. I believe original structure MAY not have been steel, along with other early elevateds. Of course all the original steel is probably gone in the rebuild. There is for sure still some wrought iron on the J Alabama Avenue to short of Cypress Hills--MAYBE also on Canarsie el.
Ditto to the Franklin, brotha. It went from the most decrepit in the system to the nicest in a year. I remember how shitty the end of the botanic garden platform used to be---all thay rotten wood. the new one is sparkling clean with nice mosaic, they repointed the empire tunnel, and the new station house is a nice touch. Im really into the new Park Place, too. The old platform was about to cave in, and that single track is unique. And removing Dean st. was a nice touch. that place was a shithole when it was still open. Im really diggin all the artwork on the line. it all looks real nice.
The D...if only they'd run R32's on it.
7
< Q >
E
-I think the Brooklyn F is boring. I actually fell asleep on it once!
Was that you?
... I fall asleep on everything all the time...!
for the twenty billionth time....
1 (and 9)
If there was ever a most-frequently-posted-topic
this would be it... literally.
(W),<|A|>(E).
E because it's the most Express in Queens, Diamond A because it runs on an RR-type schedule and goes to Rock Park, and W because it skips an assload of stops.
7, Q diamond, and pre-9/11 2 in Manhattan. Honorable mention to the 4/5.
The worst lines:
F, A, and pre 7/22 B.
Note: I have yet to ride all the lines.
In order from 1 to 6
1.Q
2.
3.W
4.4
5.5
6.3
Your # 2 choice is nothing?
:-) Andrew
I'll bet he tried to write a Q in a diamond, but it was recognized as an html tag and not printed as text.
1.
2. (W)
3. Entire southern division.
Y
6, for historic stations below 42nd St
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not partial to the equally historic stations on the 1/2 above 42nd. St?
The A and diamond Q.
At least Steve has a good 2nd choice, I don t see any N yet where is Fred
Right here Bob----where I always am. We will be heard from soon. The Sea Beach fans have been coming out of the woodwork lately, or haven't you been keeping up?
Didn't the Sea Beach fan club hold it's annual convention in a telephone booth on New Utrecht Ave. recently? I heard everyone took a W train to get there.
Just what we need. Another smart ass on board. Funny Funny, Chris, but looks aren't everything. Try again.
T'was a harmless joke. I hate the current status of your favorite line, but until we have 4 tracks on the bridge, it'll continue to suck.
They all read Reagans Auto Biography and it took 30 seconds
Damn, it took me a whole minute, but the chapter about his failed 1976 run was so fascinating, I slowed down to absorb every word.
The Q
There is no best subway line. They all suck.
The D is good, I never operate there.
Care to elaborate as to why?
Well they all don't actually suck, but IMO they're all the same. Same with the equipment.
Hmmmm... subway line: The 4. Best express line in the city.
Metro-North: Hudson Line. Nothing beats the ride from Croton-Harmon to GCT.
LIRR: Port Jefferson (only until Huntington... after that, not a fan of the diesel to Port Jeff).
NJ Transit: Jersecy Coast from Bay Head to Newark... it may not be fast, but it certainly is scenic.
Diamond Q, with R40 slants. Nothing better than that.
Especially betwen Kings Highway and Newkirk City Bound with thwe skyline in view
I don't look at the city skyline much these days ...
A little too depressing..............
I know, when I was in the city last month, I drove up I 78 to the Holland Tunnel and it looked Naked. I was watching a tape of West Side Story last week, and in 40 years since the movie was made, what changes
5 line rush hour express into Brooklyn and skip stopping 149th 3rd avenue- East 180th street.
I'd say the 4,5, and the 6.
I like the dash between 14 St. and 42 St. GCT, and how the uptown and downtown platforms in Manhattan are positioned the way they are.
I don't get to ride it that much, but I have ridden them more than some lines of the subway. It's a very interesting route.
By the way, what accounts for the different positioning of the uptown and downtown platforms on the Lex. Av. line?
It gets pretty weird around Bleecker St. where there is an uptown #6 platform, and what it seems to be 3 express tracks but the 4th track has a station that starts right when the uptotwn platform ends on the s/b side.
Also, 14 St. (I think it is), where the s/b platform starts around the midpoint of the n/b platform.
Railfan Pete.
I'd say the 4,5, and the 6.
I like the dash between 14 St. and 42 St. GCT, and how the uptown and downtown platforms in Manhattan are positioned the way they are.
I don't get to ride it that much, but I have ridden them more than some lines of the subway. It's a very interesting route.
By the way, what accounts for the different positioning of the uptown and downtown platforms on the Lex. Av. line?
It gets pretty weird around Bleecker St. where there is an uptown #6 platform, and what it seems to be 3 express tracks but the 4th track has a station that starts right when the uptotwn platform ends on the s/b side.
Also, 14 St. (I think it is), where the s/b platform starts around the midpoint of the n/b platform.
Railfan Pete.
The line is part of the first subway, and the platforms were very short. They were extended a few times. Some of the stations were extended in different directions and that is why at some stations the platforms don't line up across from one another.
They were extended in opposite directions, at different times.
here is a interesting question, what is ur favorite Amtrak line?
I hear Amtrak is hiring for Block operators in 2002 and i will be trying for it. if i became a Engineer for them, my Favorite lines are the Adirondack, altho i never rode it, the Acela Regional(thats the one making local stops and is not high speed like the express). Its the one with the HHP-8 locomotives with the Amfleet tube cars. I also like Train #52 and #53 which is the auto train. It was the first Amtrak train i ever rode in my life. it was August 10th, 1997. a 17 hour ride from Lorton virginia to sanford florida. Anyone who rode it can strongly agree that u need to bring entertainment! because the train arrived at 3pm and left at 815! it left 815 that monday and arrived 1200noon in florida the next day! only station stop is in North Carolina at 3am for a Crew Change and Refueling
The California Coast Line(San Diegans) From Santa Barbara to San Diego. Between Santa Barbara and Ventura along the Pacific Ocean, and then again from San Clemente to Del Mar, again along the Coast. Also tthe Zephyr from Denver to Sacramento. Daylight crossings over the Rockies and Sierra Nevadas. The Adridondick isa one of the scenic lines, but I have never ridden that. Also in Germany from Frankfurt to Duiesdorf, right along the Rhein River, watching the boats and the castles go by
I'll have to agree with you on the coast line. The area around Del Mar, CA is probably the most beautiful... And the photo opportunities right along the ocean!....
what is the best subway line
*************************************
No question about it, the Yellow Line, if only for the view as
it crosses over the Potomac, matched only by the A as it crosses
Jamaica Bay, but with a lot more to see, including the low-flying
aircraft approaching NATIONAL Airport.
That wasn't the answer you had in mind, so I will also nominate, for
sentimental reasons, the 4 (haven't ridden it to the Bronx in 46 year); the
view coming out of the tunnel towards Yankee Stadium pretty much
defined my high school commute.
You call WMATA Yellow a good run? That is the ONLY highlight and it gets boring after awhile. Its next best run is between the Airport and Braddock. My favorite WMATA is red. For more, go to my review on orenstransitpage.com.
The Potomac crossing may be the only good part on the Yellow Line.
I'm saying that it is the most spectcular stretch in the system.
Nothing in your posting disputes that. Any first time visitor to
DC should be aware of it.
Most spectacular is the northbound Red Line between Medical Center and Grosvenor. Second most is the Orange Line between Vienna and Ballston. The Fenwick Bridge might be the closest to downtown, but by no means the most spectacular, especially towards VA.
Most spectacular is the northbound Red Line between Medical Center and Grosvenor
*********************************************************************
On the Yellow Line's Potomac crossing you have other bridges (rail and vehicular) on either side, boats in the river, views of the shores, the view towards the lower Potomac, and final approaches of aircraft; the reactions of the passengers pretty much says it all. Added to this is the suddenness of the scene as the train exits the tunnel. All of this combines to fit the description "most spectacular." It would be a shame if this ride were not first on an out-of-towner's list of subway rides. Its closeness to downtown should not be so easily dismissed. Although it rivals the ride across Jamaica Bay to Rockaway in New York, you don't have to travel so far to enjoy it.
2,3,6,7,A,W
A Express to Far Rock
the D and the 4
My favs are the:
Q-diamond
7 (notice my handle, LOL)
A (accross the bay)
The Best:
1) 7
2) Franklin Shuttle
3) A to the Rockaways
The Worst:
1) C
2) G
3) 2 and 3--im not into the ghetto runs
4) Grand St. Shuttle--whats up with that??? just close the damn station.
5) Times sq. shuttle--Just use the 7--the extra crows might decrease the headways and let all of us in Queens enjoy frequent, less crowded trains.
4) Grand St. Shuttle--whats up with that??? just close the damn station.
I agree there are enough stations around there. Grand went from being a very busy station to basically worthless, until the bridge reopens.
The shuttle serves us Manhattanites that don't want to wait forever for the 7 to leave Times Square. Are you suggesting that the large amount of people who use the shuttle should be inconvenienced so your train can come in a few minutes earlier? You should work for the MTA. LOL. Just kidding, but seriously, keep the shuttle.
Besides, isn't the 7 crowded enough already? Wouldn't a 7 rider want the shuttle to remain in service? The 7 already has shorter headways than just about any other line in the system.
Plus the 7 has too many extra stairs to to transfer at Times Sq to Broadway or GCT to the Lex
The shuttle is actually a good walk from the 4/5/6. The 7 is much closer.
At Times Square, the shuttle is closer to the N/Q/R/W, the 7 is closer to the A/C/E, and the 1/2/3/9 is a tossup (although one is up and one is down).
Q (broadway express tracks)
E (excellent r32 cab, 53st tunnel, queens express, abandoned lower leval, etc)
N (under the east river to queensboro with conection to 7)
Worst
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63ST cra*, crawls along queens blvd express, local on hillside ave branch, R46 sucks AS*, I could go on forever.
For those of you who are model train enthusiasts with children:
THOMAS (the Tank Engine, that is) & FRIENDS
THE ALL ABOARD TOUR
LIVE
FOR THE GRAND OPENING
The Station at Citigroup Center
The World's Most Spectacular Model Train Exhibit!
Ribbon Cutting Ceremony in the Atrium
10:00 AM Thanksgiving Friday, November 23rd
FREE!
Thomas & Friends Performances
10:30 AM 12:30 PM 2:30 PM
Special Meet & Greet at 1:30 PM
FREE DAILY EXHIBIT
The Station at Citigroup Center runs
Friday, November 23rd through Friday, January 4th
153 East 53rd Street at Lexington Avenue New York, New York 10022
BTW, I am in no way affiliated with this. I happen to work in the vicinity, and I'm just passing on the information. --KP
I heard that they were planning to close the Brooklyn bound platforms at Canal St and Bowery in the general rehabilitation of the Nassau Line. This is why they only redid the southbound platform at Canal St. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this, and what else do they have planned for the rest of the line.
It's definitely true. The plan was to reduce the line from just S. of Essex to N. of Chambers to 2 tracks. The northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery would be closed. The current northbound track would remain intact for non-revenue moves*. Northbound trains would use the center track at Essex, the side track only used by trains coming from 6th ave.
__________________
* - Rumor I heard, which may have been referring to Essex st only
Since there is no scheduled service through the 6th Avenue connector, has the TA considered placing a removable bridge over the current northbound track to provide access to the now-closed exit on the south side of Delancey?
What about all of the platforms at Chambers Street?
If they are planning to close the Brooklyn bound platforms at Bowery and Canal, any word on what they are ging to do with that disaster of a station at Chambers Street?
The two issues are unrelated. Only two of those tracks lead into Canal; just south of the station, the northbound track swings suddenly to the right to make room for the two extra "express" tracks. The "express" tracks don't continue south of Canal; there's even a walkway in their path.
Has anyone else been following the debate over the propsed Purple Line in DC? It's supposed to be a partial outer ring of sorts, and the two options were a light rail line inside the beltway and a heavy rail line outside it. It looks like the inner light rail option is winning right now. Although I'm usually partial to heavy subways, and the need for transit in the outer corridor is there, I can understand the reasons for going with the inner line, especially the resoning that it would serve some disadvantaged regions of the city that are most dependent on transit, and that it would help rehabiliate older areas.
I don't live in the DC area so I'm not emotionally attached to either option or the arguments for or against either of them, but I'd really like to the opinions of others on this one.
Mark
I've followed it. Both are good routes but not if we see this inner purple light rail. Also, the inner purple will be single tracked next to a hiker-biker trail, but a 2nd track would be built over the trail if need be (and not without my protests!).
The Times has a story today about the PA discussing their plans during a forum on Monday at Columbia for lengthening and then reopening the old Hudson Terminal, while using the current PATH station as a temporary station starting in about two years.
As usual with the Times, the link requires registration.
From a 70s Relic, A Possible PATH Station
[For now the structure consists of little more than an empty concrete box that would have to be lengthened so as many as 10 cars could stop at the platform at once.]
I've never seen a 10-car PATH train. The longest I've seen them use was 8.
Yeah, but if you look at the diagram below
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/path/wtcbuild/pathbuild4.jpg
the old Hudson Terminal platforms are CLEARLY shorter than the newer WTC station. Anyone know if PATH did platform lengthening throughout the system, as the MTA (and predecessors) did with the earlier IRT stations?
WTC was built for 10 cars with the hope of eventually extending all stops to 10. They settled for 8. Before 9/11 a plan was in place to extend all NWK-WTC line stops to 10 cars to solve the crowding problem. Newark's been that long for ages, they just did JSQ (I think), Harrison would be a piece of cake, so that left only Grove and Exchange Pl to worry about.
Grove could be lengthened but it would be expensive. Lengthening exchange place would be nearly impossible. I guess they'd just let the two eastmost cars of the train dangle past the platform. That might require two conductors or door reprogramming.
The conducutor could operate in the rear of the second car. Then at Exchange Place they would only open the rear section of the train.
Lengthening exchange place would be nearly impossible.
Why would it be nearly impossible? Because it's underground? Almost anything can be done ... with time and $$$ ... but I'm curious about why Exchange would be so difficult compared to Grove.
Exchange Place has problems at both ends. The end nearest to Newark has the junction of tunnel and tracks coming from Pavonia andHoboken or leaving towards Pavonia and Hoboken. The end nearest NTC has the river tube. At a recent committe meeting with PATH officials this was mentioned and they related a true incident of a train accidently opening the first car NY bound. Iy was quite an effort to close the train doors due to air pressure in the tunnel.
Perhaps Terry Kennedy can explain further.
Extending Exchange Place to the west wouldn't be impossible, as long as the only extended trains operated on the Grove/JSQ/NWK routing - it would involve removing the pocket. Newark-bound trains already sit on the curve (first car) when opening at Exchange. Trains headed to Pavonia couldn't use this as the tracks split to the outside at the west end of the station.
By the way, Exchange Place can accomodate 8-car trains eastbound - the only problem is that since the curve is at the west end and the conductor is at the east end, the conductor can't keep as close a watch for passengers having problems as they can westbound, where the conductor's position is right at the curve.
Extending Grove is also possible - there's a good amount of space at the east end, where there used to be an exit but is now a storage area (and a place for the cleaning contractors to loiter and smoke).
See this and this for some details.
BTW, Hudson Terminal is 7 car lengths IIRC.
Is Exchange Place open, or is there another Station to Transfer to the Light Rail?
No, and yes. The light rail is a short walk from Pavonia Newport. Fare from Newport to Exchange is $1.50-- so alternatively you can take the "PATH LINK" bus for $0.50 from Grove St Station to Exchange Place.
If I come from Newark do I get off at Pavonia and walk or what?
If you're going to the Exchange Place/101 Hudson St. area I'd get off at Grove and walk (MUCH better sidewalks). If you're going to Harborside north end, probably Newport is better. In any event the bus connection is cheaper than the light rail in the case that you might want to ride not walk (bad weather, for example)
Is NJT not accepting PATH QuickCards anymore?
The next time I come up to NY for a weekend or day without my wife, i would like to ride Nwk Subway, Light Rail and PATH in fron NWK and maybe video tape it. I will let peiople know so maybe I CAN HAVE SOME COMPANY
I don't know if the NCS will run weekend service when you are here. So you better make it on a weekday. Bring Sea Beach Fred !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I think that arrangement was fairly short lived, ISTR you have to pay to travel between Newport and Exchange now...
Phooey.
If the Port Authority weren't having such difficulties right now, I'd suggest that they make an arrangement with NJT to provide free transportation between those stations to PATH passengers (perhaps even going so far as to pay for supplementary service).
The diagram from that link shows the eastbound original tunnel passing directly under and east of Tower 2, the site of the most severe underground devastation. It also passes through or under the "existing" terminal. The question is: Would this effort be worth it after the damageed station reopened. An obvious option would be to extend the eastbound approaches to the "existing" station to near the corner of Liberty and Church, then turning north into the original station, allowing longer platforms, while using the original westbound tube or a connection to the newer tube under or just south of Vesey. In any event, its a big project if you've already reopened the WTC station.
The diagram from that link shows the eastbound original tunnel passing directly under and east of Tower 2, the site of the most severe underground devastation. It also passes through or under the "existing" terminal. The question is: Would this effort be worth it after the damageed station reopened.
Well, they've got 1/3 of the rubble cleared away after 2 months, so I would imagine they'll have the site clear by next spring or summer even if they cut back from 24-hour to daylight operations.
What this says to me is that (1) they think there will be a long drawn-out design process for whatever is going to get built there, as there was in Oklahoma City where they didn't even have to build a building; and (2) the old Hudson Terminal station site is further east and hence easier to connect (eventually) to the Fulton Street subway station complex(es).
An obvious option would be to extend the eastbound approaches to the "existing" station to near the corner of Liberty and Church, then turning north into the original station, allowing longer platforms, while using the original westbound tube or a connection to the newer tube under or just south of Vesey. In any event, its a big project if you've already reopened the WTC station.
True, although the WTC station imposes more ultimate design constraints on what's ultimately built there than the Hudson Terminal site does at the eastern edge of the property.
I also wonder if they wouldn't extend the north end (to Vesey/Church corner) instead, 'cause it's nearer to the Fulton Street subways than the south end. Again, assuming that they get all rubble cleared out and are capable of patching the WTC station back into service.
eastbound original tunnel passing directly under and east of Tower 2, the site of the most severe underground devastation. It also passes through or under the "existing" terminal.
I didn't address one of your points. The WTC station is much deeper in the ground than the Hudson Terminal station was. WTC construction pix show the "old route" tubes suspended in mid-air on trestles while foundations were laid far below them for the WTC basement (and WTC station).
Coming out from under the river, trains used to go uphill to get to Hudson Terminal. Much less uphill to get to the deeper WTC station.
SO ... due to three dimensions, the two sets of tubes don't intersect. That's how they kept running to the Hudson Terminal UNTIL the WTC station was put into service. Old tunnels ran above new ones.
That makes reuse of the present approaches less of a possibility due to the grades involved, making reuse of the original platforms more problematic. It will be interesting to see what they come up with!
That makes reuse of the present approaches less of a possibility due to the grades involved, making reuse of the original platforms more problematic. It will be interesting to see what they come up with!
Not clear to me how much, if any, of the old approach tubes remain. Probably not much. But the old underground terminal space is largely there, undamaged, and I'd think that'd be a far harder and more expensive thing to build than single-train diameter tubes.
The old H&M tubes east of the "new" station appear basically intact. They used the south (NY bound) tube as an access to the vaults under 4 WTC where the gold and silver were stored - that is how they were removed.
The problem is that the tubes were cut when the "new" station was put in. There is now a gap where they used to be. I believe that the actual cut took a weekend to implement.
The idea of a megastation, including all subway lines in the Cortland/Fulton Street area and PATH, is a fantastic idea. Also, they could straighten the curve on the 1/9 north of Cortland and perhaps rebuild much of the line south of that point as well.
Yeah, I saw the article about this in the Times yesterday. Does
anyone know if there is anything left of that old station...
beyond just the tubes?
Does anyone know if there is anything left of that old station...beyond just the tubes?
The "box" that housed the station is still there, though it would have to be lengthened to handle current 8-car and planned 10-car PATH trains. The tracks and platforms were removed, though.
The tubes to it were severed from the main tunnel connections coming in from under the Hudson, but (reportedly) much of the south tube remains and was used to get the gold out from the vault under 4 WTC.
See this link for more details on the WTC build, and this link for a 1985 pic of a van driving through the abandoned tube.
Dear JV,
Thanks!
Subway Grrl
JV,
I checked out the sites you sent. Seeing the engineering marvel
of the WTC being built is so sad. You realize how grand and optimistic a thing it is to create a skyscraper. It must have been
thrilling to be a part of that. How could one
imagine it would become a mass grave instead, a crematorium?
The picture of the tube made it seem so much narrower than I would
have thought necessary... unless that was a heck of a big truck!
Thank you again for all of the info.
Subway grrl
Subway grrl,
My pleasure!
The picture of the tube made it seem so much narrower than I would have thought necessary... unless that was a heck of a big truck!
Remember, these are SINGLE-track tubes since it's a loop. Trains come in from NJ (eastbound) on the south (single) track, there's a set of switches to provide several platforms, then they go through another set of switches to head back to NJ (westbound) on the north (single) track. So the tube is only one train wide. This probably appears smaller in diameter than the twin-track NYC subway tunnels you may be comparing it to ... ?
And remember that the "Hudson Tubes" were just that -- circular tubes, not rectangular boxes.
And remember that the "Hudson Tubes" were just that -- circular tubes, not rectangular boxes.
Correct, although the circular tube has a flat floor that the van in the (5th) picture on Brennan's page is driving on. Presume that floor is at the level the tracks would have been before they were pulled up.
Indeed. And if you haven't alreay seen it, here is a picture of one of the uptown tubes (eastbound tube just past Morton St.) before the trackbed and side ducts were installed:
I do recommend that you all save this pic locally. This a wonderful map of the downtown subways, presumably showing the station alignments accurately.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/13/nyregion/13COLL.html
click on 'multimedia'. You will be rewarded with a wonderful GIF.
If this station is built, would be called Hudson Terminal ? No use calling it World Trade Center. Even when new buildings go up to replace WTC, their purpose would be finance rather than trade as was first invisioned in the 60s.
Bill "Newkirk"
I would think there would be a certain at first urge to call the station "World Trade Center" just to show Osama and his bunch that the idea, if not the buildings, live on. However, given the timetable the Port Authority is talking about, by the time it opens, whatever is planned for the site, including the name, may already have been decided, so the terminal could receive whatever that name turns out to be (and odds are Mayor Bloomberg won't be announcing three years from now that they've decided to rename the rebuilt site "Hudson Terminal" no matter how much we historical buffs might want it ti happen).
odds are Mayor Bloomberg won't be announcing three years from now that they've decided to rename the rebuilt site "Hudson Terminal" no matter how much we historical buffs might want it ti happen
Sadly, quite true. A historical note: Did the E train terminal station used to be called "Hudson Terminal" as well before it was renamed "World Trade Center"?
Yes it did. It was called Chambers St. Hudson Terminal.
The R-1/9s had both "Chambers St." and "Hudson Terminal" signs. So did the R-32s originally.
The Chambers Street sign probably referred to the Nassau Street Line.
Perhaps, although some, if not all of the R-1s had "Chambers St." signs right from the start. The photo of the test train at 42nd St. on the front cover of Building the Independent Subway is sporting a Chambers St. sign. I personally saw R-1/9 AA trains with both signs, although Hudson Terminal came up much more frequently.
What's the layout? I've never actually used that station (my subway rides are almost exclusively IRT and BMT), but it looks like there are tracks to the former Hudson Terminal terminus that parallel the IND through tracks from Chambers on to Fulton and under the river.
Can someone describe?
South of Canal St., the express and local tracks realign so that each are side by side with each other; i.e., the local tracks are east of the express tracks. The A and C stop at what is called Chambers St. while the WTC station where the E used to terminate begins further south. It's still in plain sight from the A/C platform. The A/C tracks then dive down past the Chambers St. station and as they turn eastward to Broadway-Nassau, they pass beneath the WTC station platform.
Good point. The R1-9 was an IND contract. Perhaps there was short-turned service at Chambers St-IND in the 30's or 40's. Does anybody out there have any insight?
The Times has a story today about the PA discussing their plans during a forum on Monday at Columbia for lengthening and then reopening the old Hudson Terminal [clipped] ....
"From a 70s Relic, A Possible PATH Station"
It just clicked ... the headline's wrong. It should be "From a 1909 Relic"!
Since Friday's broken rail on the curve through Canal on the Q/W, it has been incredibly slow in both directions through there. Any ideas on when this will be done? The trains are backing up to Prospect Park on the Q. And isn't this new rail we're talking about here? Didn't they have 10+ years to get this right?
Chill Dude,
This is a very hard place to work on that curve. Plus without suspending service MOW is doing a bang up job IMHO.
Since you know it is going to be slow, change at DeKalb for the local then.
I am sure as soon as they can get a G.O. setup for a weekend they will and fix the problem permanant. Last weekend track crews were working on rail on A1 at Newkirk, plus a ton of other stuff. Can't be everywhere at once. Maybe there need special fabracation of rail/joints or other things for that curve that takes time to make.
It is not a broken rail at Canal street, it's the road bed. The concret is cracking very bad. The TA already cut up some of it, it's becouse of the shape turn the we are only aloud to go 5mph though it. It is easy to keep 5mph going south bound, as for nouth bound with the up hill and the turn it is almost inposeable to do.
Robert
Has the TA ever thought of widening the tunnel at Canal st?
"Has the TA ever thought of widening the tunnel at Canal st?"
To what end? The problem here, according to previous posts, is that the concrete supporting the rails is cracking.
David
They had 10 years to do this right! They've only been operating about 3-4 months now.
Back a few years ago, they had the Q running from 21st to Dekalb via tunnel mid-day while both sides of the bridge were closed. Couldn't they do this again, allowing a 4-5 hours each day without trains going through.
AFter 10 years, they should have had a showcase line, instead they have a mess. (Just look at the local stations. They could have had those complete, instead they started a few months before the line was to reopen.)
I don't think five lines could squeeze through the tunnel, even middays.
They only ran the Q, N & R when they did it last time, and only midday when the traffic is lighter.
I know. But that was planned well in advance. A two-sided map was released and the project lasted for a few months. The suggestion here was to implement a similar move now so the work could be done right away. I don't think that's a reasonable demand to make of the passengers.
Remember that ridership, especially middays, is up since that project. The N, R, and circle-Q wouldn't suffice.
This sounds like the sort of deal that one or two weekend GO's, or perhaps a week's worth of midday GO's, would solve.
So that explains why my Q train really crawled through there on Saturday. MTA...slowing your way!
Try going slow during PM Rush hour on Monday. It also did not help to have a sick passage on an south bound R train at 34. All train were put on the Express track to Canal St. I left after the Passage was taken off the train and it started rolling. After this they had all of the W going express on the local and though tunnel. It still took me 25min to get downtown and though to Canal St becouse of the Slooow Speed down there. Also even if you wanted to go 10mph you could not bcouse there was someone allwas there to remind you that it was 5mph or less.
Robert
i hear LIRR is supposed to start work on LIRR to GCT soon. Any ideas about the Second avenue subway? Cause i got to see a Roll of a R32 and it has all kinds of lines that the 2nd avenue subway prolly will use. stuff like P, Y, T, and X and U. The X and U train? wow!
i hope they would build it sometime before i become worm food!
The Y,X and U are set aside for the Second ave line....... Y will be the Second ave trunk line,U PART TIME,X Queens blvd. The R will be the Broadway/63rd/Second ave service. its Queens routing would be replaced by the T .
6541-45 is In Service
6546-50/6556-60 last Night was the 9:40 E 180 to Flatbush Similated Test.
Once upon a time most NYC Subway cars had the blue stripe look that we now would associate with the LIRR and Metro-North. My quetion is which cars?
It seems from the pictures on this site that the R32, R38, and R40S are the only things from the 1960's and 1970's that didn't have it. (The R32 did have the blue doors and the R38 and R40S the thin blue line, but it's really not the same.) The R40M, R42, R44, and R46 had the stripe from the start. Plus it seems all carbon steel cars (which today would be redbirds), at one time or antother, were painted silver with the blue stripe--going back as far as the R9.
Is that correct?
:-) Andrew
I think you've hit all the cars that had the blue stripe, I am just not old enough to remember all of them. I do remember the R44 and R46 having them, and also I have seen pictures from 1976 when the stripe was red, white and blue w/ stars to mark the bicentennial. -Nick
r21 and r22 for certain.
Many of the older cars were so well graffitied that you couldn't tell what paint scheme was officially applied! I know that the R-10,12 & 14 had them, but can't vouch for the R-15 & 16, or for the WF cars on the 7.
tho the r21 and r22 instantly
came to mind, the r15s on the 1
had the stripe as did the r29s
on the 6 IIRC...
All cars that went to the shops for repainting got the BLUE STRIPE treatment.Every car class from the R1/9 to the 27/30[carbon steel]R42/44 and 46 cars stainless cars.
Almost everything, even the R9s as I remember. Cars that had been dark green/black from the beginning suddenly were made to look "modern".
Same with the Newark PCCs in NJT colors. They still look to be from another era.
Yes, the R15, R16 and 7-Line WF cars all had the silver with blue stripe scheme at one time.
EVERY class of the R-series painted cars had this scheme....back to the old IND cars.
EVERY class of the R-series painted cars had this scheme....back to the old IND cars.
Even before the R9? That was the earliest model I saw in this scheme (on this site, anyway.)
:-) Andrew
Only a handful of R-7s and R-9s got the silver-and-blue treatment, and then only the ones on the Easern Division. AFAIK none of the R-1/9s still running on the IND were repainted.
The WF R-36s were skipped over during the first round of repainting in 1970-71. They retained their original colors until the second round of repaints in 1979-80, and even then not all of them got the silver-and-blue treatment. It's quite possible that some of them went straight from teal and blue to all-white.
I was mistaken about the old IND cars...I didn't realize it was only ones from the group assigned to ENY..
As for the R36WF's....I would venture to say a definite YES that some, in fact many, went from their original light blue and white to the solid white. I photographed Flushing Yard in 1979, and many cars were still in original paint, though very worn and vandalaized. There were just a couple trainsets in MTA blue and silver, and a whole bunch freshly painted white.
I wonder....did any go from their original blue and white colors to become Redbirds...without the benefit of solid white?
You've pretty much got them all on the IND/BMT. The R-42's probably had the blue strip the shortest amount of time. On the IRT the R-12 through R-36 all had the blue stripe at some point.
Wayne
Only SOME of the Eastern Division pre-war ex-IND fleet (R-7A and R-9) had the blue stripe, with the bilious Pistachio Green interior. None of the R-1, R-4, R-6-(1,2,3) or R-7 first batch had them.
wayne
I'm sure that the bilious Pistachio Green interior was almost certainly incentive for the vandal to draw all over in the interiors of the subway cars. For a time many school buses had their interiors painted in that same disgusting hue of green.
#3 West End Jeff
My recollection is that the R-40M's did not have the same blue stripe as the R-42's. I believe the R-40M's came with the same very narrow stripe that the R-40S's had.
Also, the thin stripe on the R-38's was not really blue; it was turquoise.
No, the R40M's had the dark blue wide stripe painted over the fluting. They did NOT match the R40S.
The answer to which classes did and didn't have the stripes can all be found in the car photos at NY Subway Resources.
The R-38s had a thin blue-and-orange stripe with matching TA logo (either because they're the official city colors or the car designer was a Mets fan), while the R-40s and R-40M had the painted deep blue groove. And Wayne is right -- the repainting of the cars began in terms of fleet age not with the R-1s, but with the R-7/9s on the Eastern Division, and worked their way up to the R-36WFs, which didn't get the color scheme until after their AC retrofits in 1979.
In terms of which cars where actaully the first to be repainted, it was the R-17 fleet on the No. 6 Lexington Ave. local. I remember seeing one for the first time when it pulled in at Grand Central and being really excited about the great new paint job .... until I walked inside and got a look at the Color Scheme from Hell. I still would love to know who got the idea to paint several thousand subway cars the color of something you cough up when you're really, really sick -- a color scheme so bad it almost justified the graffiti outbreak that began a year after the first cars were repainted.
I think some paint merchant who couldn't sell that puke green color to anyone else managed to unload it on the TA for a bargain basement price. Heck, the TA might have even been PAID to take that paint.
Eeewwwwwwww!!!
I think you might be right. The T/A might take ANYTHING if they were paid to do it. I wonder if they would acquire defective subway cars if they were paid to take them?
#3 West End Jeff
Let's not go there.
Let's hope they don't accept defective subway cars for the taking.
#3 West End Jeff
Amen.
But who sold the tons of forest green paint the TA is using now to paint everything from garbage cans to elevated structures? A few years back, every J train station was a different color. Now it's dark green from 121 St St. to Hewes St.
Yeah, but do you remember some of the horrible purple-pink colors they used to use...like what Flushing Ave on the JMZ line had or what Myrtle Avenue on the L line had, and a few other stations throughout the system. Wyckoff on the M had it too at one time. That had to be one of the worse colors used.
Ooh, send some down to the 86th Street on the Sea Beach. The columns there are supposed to be green, but someone recently painted them (along with the platform walls) white on the southbound side.
The R-38's did NOT have a "blue and orange" stripe as you state.
They had only a 3-inch light blue stripe just under the window line.
What were you smoking?
You're right -- Only the A on the TA logo got the orange paint on the R-38 exteriors.
Ad for what I was smoking, probably the same thing as the guy who posted this blanket statement about the IND 1/9 cars on Tuesday.
Let he who is without sin -- or in this case without errors in memory about subway car paint jobs -- cast the first stone ...
The doors on the R-32s were painted silver when the rest of the fleet got the silver-and-blue paint job. Bad move. It robbed the R-32s of their most distinctive feature.
I don't think any R1, R4 or R6 (any version) got the silver/blue stripe paintjob. Every other carbon steel car did. Flame me if you will, but when fresh out of the paint shop, this was the best look any car ever sported, not including the R36/R10 World's Fair look. Unfortunatley, this was grafitti time, so they were often vandalized immediatley.
I think even on the LIRR MU's it looked better with the stripe. Look at how much better Metro-North's MU's look.
The current bare stainless steel look is so boring and anticeptic, I actually welcome grafitti. At least the R142's have that red addition.
YES! YES! YES!!!!!!!!!
That is especially true on the M-series trains, which are SO big and otherwise almost featureless.
:-) Andrew
The blue stripe looked really good on the LIRR "Metropolitan" fleet....and even better when they added the yellow accent stripe across the ends on some of the blue striped cars.
What I did NOT like was when they first did LIRR's fleet, they did the stripe through the window panels. Once they lowered the stripe, it gave the cars a slightly better look.
And now what Metro-North has done to their car ends is really attractive!
None of the ones still left on the IND got repainted. A few on the Eastern Division did. I never saw any in revenue service except for a brief glimpse of one or two in one of the yards.
The REASON why the cars on teh D train and E/F at least didn't get repainted is that we IND kids opened various cans of whoopass and jockeyed cars around so that when someone at Coney decided that they had plenty of paint and no cars to tag it with, we'd be laying them up in strange places.
You can thank CONCOURSE YARD for preventing much mayhem. We'd roll the signs and declare them CC's and GG's to keep their "noses" clean. :)
While I didn't mind the exterior paint job by itself that much, you and your fellow workers did the passengers of the NYCTA a great public service by keeping that eye-melting interior paint scheme away from those cars until they could be retired with dignity. Too bad the R-7/9s couldn't avoid the same fate ...
How could a car look so good on the outside, yet so awful on the inside? Thankfully, by 1979 the door/trim color was shifted to a glowing orange.
The only explanation I can figure out is that Roanan and his boys wanted the MTA corporate colors to be shown off to as many people as possible, and that meant doing a good job on the exterior repainting, because the cars were not only visible to subway passengers, but to other people looking at the trains on the elevated sections.
Since the interior of the trains couldn't be seen from the street or from nearby buildings, they decided to put the cheapest, crappiest paint they could find on the inside of the cars -- I mean, who cares what the paying customers inside have to look at, so long as the drivers on the Bruckner Expressway think Bill Ronan has created some damn fine lookin' rolling stock.
The orange-and-tan scheme that arrived with the R-33 AC retrofits in 1978 was a major step up, even if the paint never lived up to the graffiti-resistant claims the MTA made when they announced its introduction.
You hit the nail right on the head there - Ronan was in such a hurry to put his M's up over the old "ta's" as part of the culture. The 2nd Avenue stubway was also a major priority at the expense of maintenance (damn the budget, dig that hole - we can fix broken equipment NEXT year) ... good observation though of the rumblings of the Holy Ronan Empire. :)
Although I never saw it, there was a two-word editorial in one of the NYC papers which spoke volumes: "Ronan stinks".
Wish I had kept one of the checks he signed for me, but alas, needed the money then. He was universally despised - and he even got Robert Moses so cheesed off, MOSES QUIT ... heh. Only good thing you can say about Bill Ronan ...
They even referred to the MTA as the "Holy Ronan Empire".
That's worth perhaps a very feeble rim shot.
Seriously, that's what anyone who dealt with him referred to it as - not only TWU called it that, the TIMES did too.
I remember seeing that in the newspapers on many occasions....
Wasn't it actually spelled, "Wholly Ronan Empire"? For some reason that came to mind.
Same difference ... you did give the paycheck the old bounce test off the floor either way. :)
Hi folks - I am just dropping everybody a line to say that tomorrow evening at 7:05PM I will be winging my way over The Pond and six or so hours later I shall land at Heathrow and be off to see the LU for the next five days or so. I will try and document my experiences to share with everyone here. I am flying out of Newark and will be with Simon Billis and Rob Morel on the way over. I'll let you know how it all went. I will be posting tonight, then it's a mid-day railtrip tomorrow and off we go.
wayne
Have a safe flight, and bring lotsa film !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Got 4 rolls so far and will probably get more, plus got a new battery for the old WP-1, and I MUST remember to NOT let the film go thru the X-Ray machine. Dave has mailed me a long list of railfan-friendly things to see, so I should be VEDDY VEDDY busy seeing it all.
wayne
would anyone know the best bus and subway route from 2035 Ralph Ave. in Brooklyn to Times Square? Thank you!
I think the best thing would be to take the B41, which runs along Ave. N to Flatbush Ave., and all the way up Flatbush Ave.
You could get off at any number of places to catch several subway lines. The first opportunity would be at Nostand Ave., where you could get the 2.
If the traffic is somehow not too bad when you are going, and the bus is moving alright, you can stay on to hook up with the Q, either at Empire Blvd. (Prospect Park station) or 7th Ave.
(If you wanted to give yourself a headache, you could get off at Atlantic Ave. for connections with the many subway lines that go through that station. But, with so many other options available, this one is not even worth mentioning.)
Finally, if you were getting really comfortable on the B41, you could take it all the way up to Downtown Brooklyn (but only during late-night or other low-traffic times).
You could get off at Hoyt St. and catch either the A at the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station, or the 1/2 at the Hoyt St. station on Fulton St. Or else, you could get off the bus at Montague St. and catch the 1/2 or the N/R at the Boro Hall/Court St. station.
So, if you are going during rush hours or in the afternoon or evening, I would recommend taking the route which leaves you on the bus (and in traffic) the least. I'd say get off the bus at Nostrand, and catch the 2 at its first stop. It will be a long subway ride, but you'll get a seat.
If you're going late night or early morning (when Flatbush Ave. isn't packed), then I would say the best thing to do is to take the bus all the way to the A at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The A will get you where you need to go quickly at all times of day or night. Even if you are going local, it doesn't take very long to get to 42nd St. from Downtown Brooklyn.
Ferdinand Cesarano
If you are near Flatlands Ave you can take the B82 to E 16th and Catch the Q that would be the fastest
DO LIRR MUs have door enablers? I remember seeing orange lights on the door control panels. If not what are those orange lights for?
The 8:33 5 train at Pelham Parkway was late. It gets there about 8:40. Now, my spider senses are tingling. On my scanner, I hear that there is a sick passenger on a southbound 2 train at Prospect. All trains going express from 174th to 3rd Avenue. As I'm passing Tremont, I hear that the passenger is dead. Sad and unfortunate, of course. By the way, my train went local for some reason. Just outside the turn North of Simpson, I hear on the radio there is ANOTHER sick passenger at, you guessed it, Prospect. Almost an hour later, I reach my destination. I get to work 30 minutes late. Sometimes I envy Superman. :)
R142 Message: 'We are sorry about the delay but there is a deceased passenger on board and the train is momentarily delayed in order to remove the body. This train will be moving shortly and continue to enjoy your ride on the MTA Subways.'
LMAO. At least I'm not the only one around here with a sick sense of humor. :D
It's an inside joke....there are many messages in the R142 annunciator system that cannot be played by train crew including the one about a sick passenger. And where did I learn this fact?? Peter
There are announcements on the LIB system that aren't supposed to be played. My favorite one is "please don't talk to the driver". One guy put in on when he wanted to be left alone.
Are you sure it was the IRT. It would seem more realistic for it happen on the BMT (N) or IND (F) as the train passed through the
GRAVESEND section of Brooklyn.
Michael
That's worth half a rim shot.
Yeah, they have to add that prerecorded message with the "Disney World" type voice.
My humor may be a little sarcastic but I enjoy the new work with the TA and the people I work with: I have a laugh every day. "Ladies and gentleman, please secure your beercans and liquor bottles as this train is about to go in motion." If only there could be one new message every day that would make people happy. Peter
Some of us on road duty who had a PA to play with made the ride amusing for the geese ... I think that's why we got replaced with a recording. :)
"Attention passengers. Due to a punk kid sitting with his legs 50 feet apart thereby taking up 4 seats, this train will be held in the station until officials can be summoned to put a bullet in his temple. We apologize for the unavoidable delay."
Hahahahaha ... explains the dead goose then. :)
Hehe, why have the recorded messages when you can have the real thing!?!?! My favorite conductor, only had him twice though...
Last year:
"Please, when you leave the train, do us a favor. Please check to see if you have all of your belongings."
"When you get off the train, please watch your step. It would be a shame for someone to slip and fall just before the holidays."
This year (my favorites):
As we left Pacific NB on N morning rush: "Sorry passengers, but we neglected to mention that the next stop will be Dekalb Avenue!" (I breathed a sigh of relief)
As we opened doors to Court St.:
"Good morning ladies and gentlemen! Nice to see that everybody's ready for a fresh new day!"
As we approached Whitehall street (pre-9/11):
"This is Whitehall street where you can get the ferry to the Statur of Liberty, our national monument!"
As we left Rector:
"Ladies and gentlemen, please prepare for (I thought he was going to say the ride of your life, lol!) service changes, once the Manhattan Bridge is closed, check for the pamplets at token booths."
As we approached Courtlandt:
"Please excuse the écoupage of our appearance, we are doing construction on stations."
And I got off there... what a shame, I'd like to see what else he's say... of course the passengers were complaining, but I thought it was hilarious! Are any of you guys the conductor I'm mentioning? If so, keep up the good work!!! :-D
Back in the late 80's, a 1/9 conductor was famous for his witty comments. I was fortunate to have ridden his train a few times. One time, when he couldn't come up with anything interesting about 50th Street (can you?), he told us about skip-stop and invited us to change for the 9. Another time, on a downtown train, he announced at 72nd that transfers to the downtown express were on the house.
And some here wonder why some of us aren't enthralled by the new canned conductors that think it's still early July.
I remember a conductor on the D a while back that was full of witty comments as well on a regular basis.
I liked the one I heard on an A train once: "Good afternoon, passengers. You just boarded a downtown A train to Lefferts Blvd. 42nd St. will be the next stop. No smoking on the train, no smoking on the train."
If it happened to be autumn of 1970, I was known for enjoying playing with the PA when I got a 32 - I'd often come up on an R1/9 and get a 32 back south in the morning rush hour - and I'd to schtick like "Bedford Park Boulevard - change for the NEXT local since the one across the platform is already leaving" ... or "next stop 42nd Street, no flashes please" ...
"Customer complaints" ensured that after a few days of that, they would leap me ahead back onto the R1/9 that I came in on rather than letting me have a toy to play with. But it was fun while it lasted. :)
Back in the late 80's, a 1/9 conductor was famous for his witty comments. I was fortunate to have ridden his train a few times. One time, when he couldn't come up with anything interesting about 50th Street (can you?), he told us about skip-stop and invited us to change for the 9. Another time, on a downtown train, he announced at 72nd that transfers to the downtown express were on the house.
Sounds like Harry Nugent there.
That's the one. I didn't remember his name. What's he doing these days? The TA should have hired him to record the R-142 announcements.
I learned his name from a NY TIMES article
which "profiled" him at his retirement in
1993 (or so).. Wish I'd have caught him more
often..
I believe I also experienced that wonderful conductor on at least a few occasions. The one comment that really stands out for me was when someone was holding the doors open at...66th St, I think, and he came over the PA and said "Ladies and gentlemen, please remember to bring your entire anatomy with you when entering or exiting the train".
There was another time (not that CO, though) on the downtown F. We were at B'way-Lafayette, and someone (again) was holding the doors, and after several impassioned pleas from the CO to please stop holding them, the CO came on again and said:
"If you do not stop holding the doors, we will discharge this train and take it out of service. And if we have to do that, I personally guarantee that I will make sure that EVERYONE who had to get off this train knows EXACTLY who it was that made them get off it due to their inconsiderate actions."
As if by magic, we were underway shortly thereafter.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I still like the one I heard last year on that rerouted Q train on Broadway: "Lady, if you're not sure if this is your train or not, it probably isn't".
Ive used that annoucement a couple of times myself when I see a passenger holding the door to ask another passenger what train is this or where is it going?
The news that a dead passenger was found on a subway train is nothing new to me. Some months back there was a post about a dead person found on a "D" train. I can just picture the announcement in my mind about what they would say on the PA system. "All trains are running express from Xxxx to Xxxx due to a deceased passenger. Sorry for the inconvenience."
#3 West End Jeff
perhaps
"being held in the station for medical attention"
That might be more appropriate.
#3 West End Jeff
My point on all of this had been that the R142 does not have the 'sick passenger' message available to the crew by TAs request. I guess that it is either crew option and/or orders from the dispatcher to notify the passengers of what's happening. There is always the 'last stop' message when we finish inspection. Peter
If they don't have a sick passenger message on the recording announcements they should add such a message.
#3 West End Jeff
The message exists in software because some poster asked for the list of vocabulary and phrases....the R142 instructors don't have it. Some favors are owed...mebbe I can bum one out of a Bom. tech someday. Peter
Give it a try. Maybe with your help they'll be a sick passenger message in the automated recordings.
#3 West End Jeff
Well there is the Sorry of the Unaviodable delay message.
That is a very interesting message. How about having a delay message because of equipment difficulties.
#3 West End Jeff
Can the R44 and R46's run on Eastern Division? I know I've never seen them there. Are the tunnels too small on the Nassau line? The BMT standards used to run there. Where they smaller than the R44 & R46's?
Can the R44 and R46's run on Eastern Division?
Only if there is no train on the adjacent track in certain locations.
Are the tunnels too small on the Nassau line?
Actually, the tunnels north of Chambers were built to more generous standards than the rest of the system.
The BMT standards used to run there. Where they smaller than the R44 & R46's?
Yes.
Bet you never saw an R68 on the Eastern Division either.
No I have never seen the R68's there either, but I never really liked them that much either.
The Tunnels north of Chambers Street were built 1908-1913, and they were more generous in space? I have not observed any grand dimensions, except maybe on the curve from Bowery to Delancy.
Please go into more detail on this extra apce in the BRT Centre Loop north of Chambers.
Those tunnels are somewhat taller, as are the 4th Ave. tunnels in Brooklyn. They were built to accommodate 10-foor-wide cars.
Fulton and Broad were made to smaller specifications than the older part?!?! They weren't that smart back then either.
That section of tunnel isn't quite as tall, that's all.
Fulton is positively stingy! Are there any other stations where, not only are the tracks and platforms stacked vertically, but the two switch sides so the ceiling over the track can extend up to the platform above while the platform can get by with a lower ceiling? The result is a confusing transfer between the 2/3 and the northbound J/M/Z and between the 4/5 and the southbound J/M/Z, via the A/C platform serving as a crossunder.
To this day I find that station confusing.
I think we all do. It took me many years to figure out why sometimes I had to use the IND platform as an underpass and other times I didn't. And every single time I wait on either BMT platform, I invariably look the wrong way down the track. More than once I've walked up to the head end to get a view out the front only to find that I was at the tail.
That happened to me at Times Square on the 7. I wound up in the last car of a Subway Series-bound train and made it as far as the ninth car before it got so jam-packed I couldn't go any further. Now I got it figured out: the Flushing-bound end is the one with the staircase.
Now if I could get my orientation straight at Penn Station....
There's a staircase at the Flushing end? I thought the escalator came last, although not all the way at the end. There is a staircase at the other end.
I'll admit, I've had to ask which way is front at that station. Usually I can figure it out by the signs to the A/C/E, which should be pointing west. Also, both sets of escalators run east as they ascend.
I use the dispatch office and the curved wall as my refrence points for Times Square.
>> There's a staircase at the Flushing end? I thought the escalator came last, although not all the way at the end. <<
Well, there is a closed-off staircase after the escalator but before the tower. I take the 7 every day between TS & GC, and I can tell you for certain that it's there. Looks like a portion of the next level was closed off to make station offices or somesuch. The tilework reeks of the mid-60s bathtub style decor once rampant in the TA (like Grand St).
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The original Triborough System plans were looking to acommodate wider and longer cars. That area of tunnel was built before the Dual COntracts were written up and followed the specs in the Triborough Plan.
--Mark
Also, they would be unable to platform at most Eastern Division stations, at least eight-car trains of R44s and 46s.
I've personaly seen R46's run the Eastern division, around 1980,passing the Myrtle ave station. Of course it wasn't in service,but it proved that the 75 ft cars can run there.
It couldn't go too much past it. Certainly a 75 footer would have problems with that infamous curve on the (J)(Z) at Cypress Hills.
I've heard that 75 footers could maybe run on the (M).
:-) Andrew
This is 2001 and not 1980. There is a sign entering Fulton St. on the northbound J/M/Z stating that 75 foot cars are not allowed past this point. The TA has spoken! That is the rule! Various construction projects have been done in the past 21 years (tunnel lighting for example) and have perhaps made the clearances for 75 foot cars impossible to negotiate (knocking down lighting fixtures for example).
Wasn't it around 1981 that the D train ran from 6th Avenue into Essex, onto the bridge, and back through Essex, down Nassau, and into Brooklyn?
Oh, wait. The D wasn't running R-68's then. (Imagine that!) What was it running? Probably R-42's or something.
They used to make that move but I don't think they've done that for a long time. I did that many many times during my rookie days on the D. It was confusing for everybody. The passengers getting off at Church Ave. were pissed when they thought they were in the first car but were actually in the last! One day a rookie motorman kept going up the Willy B and turned north of Bway Myrtle!
As I said, I think it was in 1981 -- as the official route for the D. I may be wrong. I was 7 years old at the time and the little subway riding I did was on the IRT.
Back then the D was mostly R40, R42 and R32. Some R44's also ran on the D until 1984, but i bet those assigned to the D at this time were taken out of service. This was a nightime-only diversion.
And one I never understood. Wasn't it easier to divide the D and run the lower half up Broadway?
The R-44s were removed from the D within a few days after a particularly violent derailment at Kings Highway in January 1981 that nearly resulted in a train toppling into several backyards. R-46s had already been removed several months earlier. 75-foot cars did not return to the Brighton Line (at least not as an assignment) until the R-68s debuted in 1986.
As for the General Order we're talking about here, I used to encounter it while coming home from college in the mid-1980s. One day I was on a train that got stuck on the Williamsburg Bridge for half an hour (I was in the pair of R-42s that had gone to Colorado in the early 1970s, as it happens -- one of the cars still had its original interior paint job, albeit graffiti-splashed). To this day I think they forgot we were there!
David
R68's did indeed make that turnaround move at Essex Street. I was on one once around 1987ish. They can fit through the Nassau Street tunnels, but there's a weight limit on the bridge.
Why would that particular D route diversion be in effect at a time (1987) when all D trains to Brooklyn had been running on the Bway line for over a year?
There was a GO in effect for the weekend that diverted D trains to Nassau Street.
What is the weight of an eight or nine car consist of R/40 slants or R/42s as compared to a six pack of r/44s, r/46s and r/68s?
Then what will the R/143s weigh in at if they are running eight or nine car sets.
Finally , what is the weightlimit for the Willy Bee?
avid
Unless they completely redisgned the Willy B during the 99 rebuild, I'd say the weight limit is the same as the Manhattan Bridge, since both were designed to accomodate identical trains.
Don't forget about the BMT standards. They ran on the Willy B for years and they were heavier than even the R-68s.
Interesting that this sign is placed just before the extreme switchback curve that leads into Chambers. I don't see where any of the new tunnel lighting interferes with a potential 75' train.
Was the train of R46's going toward Metropolitan or the J line route?
Heading toward Manhattan......
Well then, from Metro or from Jamaica. It just seems very interesting. I never knew they even ever made it to Myrtle.
seen one in the ENY YARD too.....
Pretty cool.....
Which lines make up the Eastern Division? and the western?
The J,L,M,Z and ghost of the K are the Eastern Div. The others were the Southern Div. B,D,N,R,Q,W
avid
The R is not in the Southern Division, it is in the Queens Division.
The B,D,N,Q and W are in the South as you correctly mentioned. Also in addition are the two 6th Avenue Shuttles and the Franklin Shuttle.
The 4th Avenue BMT line -- which carries the R, among others -- is without question Southern Division.
The Queens end of the R isn't BMT at all.
It doesn't matter whether it is in IND or BMT territory, as far as the TA is concerned, the following lines are considered to be in their respective divisions regardless of location.
South: B,D,N,Q,W,both 6th Av Shuttles,Franklin Shuttle.
North: A,C,J,L,M,Rock Park Shuttle.
Queens: E,F,G,R,V.
As far as the Eastern Division goes, it's a nickname that's stuck for some reason, even though they are Northern Lines. The TA also calls the Lexington Ave. IRT "the East".
I'm not talking about history here, I'm just talking about right now.
I have a feeling we're mixing terminologies.
The TA, currently, has South, North, and Queens subdivisions within the B Division. Each lettered line is in one and only one of these categories.
The BMT, back when there was such a thing, had an Eastern Division and a Southern Division. The Southern Division consisted of (IINM) the trackage covered by what today is colored yellow on the map, plus the Culver line (including what became the shuttle), plus the Franklin Avenue shuttle, and excluding the IND (Queens) portion of the R. Everything else made up the Eastern Division.
Today's South differs from the BMT's Southern Division; today's North differs from the BMT's Eastern Division.
There is no "western division".
The "Eastern Division" refers to an old division of the BMT. It inlcudes today's (J)(Z) , the (M) above Broad St, and the (L). These lines all have sharp curves which a train of 75 foot cars would have a difficult (if not impossible) time negotiating, especially if another train is crossing in the other direction at the same time. Theoretically the Eastern Division would also (I believe) include the elevated portion of the (A) over Liberty Ave to Lefferts Blvd (but NOT the Rockaway section.) However that is not true in practice, since that line has long since been annexed to the IND, and obviously has no clearance problems (the (A) runs R44s all the time.)
The other BMT division is the southern. It inludes the (N)(Q)(R)(W) the (M) below Broad Street, the Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn sections of the (B) and (D) (when they are running), and the (F) below Church St.
:-) Andrew
The M is still considered a Northern line regardless of it's location. That's why it constantly gets cut off by N/R/W trains during the rush. And even though the F is considered part of the BMT on the elevated Culver line, it internally is a Queens Division line. Same with the B/D. It's now all in IND territory, but they're both Southern Division lines.
Two of my photos that are on this site have been used at Bostonroads.com since it is a non-commercial site I have no problem with them using my photos. I would like to know if anyone from this site was contacted before my photos were used because I wasn't. I have sent The Webmaster of bostonroads.com an email on this matter.
Which two photos?
the nycsubway.org urls
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/orange/mbta-orange-foresthills01.jpg
and
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/orange/mbta-orange-greenst02.jpg
The bostonroads.com Urls
http://www.bostonroads.com/roads/southwest/img11.jpg
and
http://www.bostonroads.com/roads/southwest/img12.jpg
Answered privately...
While visiting Philadelphia on a Saturday a few weeks ago, I convinced my friend to join me for a quick ride on the SEPTA subway along Broad Street.
We happened to stop at the Spring Gardens station, a few stops north of downtown Philly. It actually took us a minute to find the one staircase that was open and led to the station. Unlike NYC there was no glowing green or red globe, no lit up advertising sign over the staircase. In fact there was no sign that this staircase led to the subway except repeatedly painted over SEPTA raised lettering on the metal post. And the staircase on the other side of the intersection was covered over with wooden panels. So I assume this was the only entrance.
When we went downstairs we were the only people in the station other than the clerk (around 8pm Saturday). I read the fare chart and noticed it cost $2 for a single ride but I think $3.60 if you bought two tokens. I gave the clerk $3.60 and he acted like I was insane. You can't buy tokens here, he insisted. You can only do that downtown on a weekday. So I gave him four dollars and he let my friend and I into the system.
When we went down to the Northbound platform we were the only ones there for about 4 minutes. There were about three people on the southbound platform and a train stopped there in a few minutes. Eventually one other person joined us on our platform and a train came in about ten minutes. I was surprised that the train was fuller than I would have guessed. The seats were cushioned and I noticed on the map that weekdays this line actually has express and local trains! I thought NYC and a few sections of Chicago and London were the only subways with express and local service.
Why are things so quiet on Philadelphia's subways on a Saturday night? Why advertise tokens at 2 for $3.60 if you can't buy them at a token booth? (And two dollars a ride is fairly expensive!) Why are the entrances so inconspicuous?
Craig
You got the prices wrong. The base fare is $1.90 and tokens are $1.30 each. I thought that every subway station had a TVM, guess not.
The BSS is also cool in that the express trains hit 63mph underground and there is a railfan view.
Base fare is indeed $2.00 cash, exact amount required. They added the ten cents in order "to still offer discounts to school students."
I don't think that's what the students had in mind by discount. IE raising the non-student rate so that the students suddenly have a "discount".
I could not agree with you more!
Tokens, which much be bought in groups of two, are elusive to find in most stations. Not sure about BSS stations, but on the MFL, machines are available at 30th, 15th, and 8th for sure. At 34th, you can use the special booth, but only during certain hours, and only if they are not sold out. Oh yeah, change is sometimes available there too... but most of the times this booth is closed.
Another oddity: even the cashier cannot make change - all fares require exact change. Before last summer's rate hike, transfers were 40Ē so $2 got you a ride and a worthless transfer, in most cases.
The token issue is a sticky one but the whole idea of token vending machines was supposed to solve it. I can't understand why, if there is a 'cashier' at each station, they can't sell tokens. I know the system is exact change, but technically operators (and cashiers) are supposed to have slips that they can issue if you only have bills and need change. (Of course, if you ask the typical SEPTA op/cashier about this, they'll probably look at you like you have a glass head or something!)
Making change on a bus or surface vehicle is one thing, but having this capability at a cashier booth is entirely different. There is security in the booth that doesn't exist in an exposed operator position on a vehicle. I have long disagreed with SEPTA's policy on this, pointing out that it is much more ludicrous to have railroad conductors walking around with the cash they carry, and little concern about this, while cashiers in a secure booth can't handle cash. The totally oxymoronic part of this is that some booths do indeed sell tokens, passes, etc during certain hours, so why can't this be extended to all booths at all hours? NYC offers an interesting precedent here that could easily be followed.
By the way, if you rode a Broad Street train that has cushioned seats, it must have been a fan trip. The Kawasakis on the line have molded plastic seating.
SEPTA's mismanagement has been well documented so I won't go into that here, excpet to say that the condition of a lot of the Broad Street subway stations leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of rehabbing has gone on at Olney and Erie stations, and I like the tiles with kids' drawings on them that decorate Susquehanna-Dauphin, but a lot of others look like they were abandoned shortly after World War II.
But that said, I always enjoy riding it and I look for excuses to do so. (I use the Market-Frankford el to get to work.) I love the cars which are still clean and in good shape though obvisouly old, and I like that they're painted orange, the color of the route on the SEPTA maps.
Not a lot of people know about our express trains under Broad Street. I even saw a documentary on TV that stated New York was the only system with express trains. Wrong!
Now if only there were express trains on the Market-Franford el...
Mark
Is anyone familiar with the following railroads:
Broadway and 7th Ave. Railroad Co.
The Central Crosstown Railway Company
The Christopher and Tenth St. Railway Co,
thanks
These are the names of the various companies that made up the New York Railways trolley lines in Manhattan after the bankruptcy of the Metropolitan Railways. Tracks and cars were under a difficult to decipher group of as many as 35 ownerships (as of the 1919 recievership) split up amongst the routes. Stock was held by the IRT until 1925.
More info can be found in the book "New York Railways - The Green Line" published by NJ International. It is still available in well stocked model RR stores. I think Kevin Farrell had some for sale.
thank you for the information.
Well, I should have known that with my luck, something would've gone wrong. Like I said, I took the F from 179th to Lexington Ave to a 6 to 42nd to an express to Atlantic to N. At 71Av I noticed a train across the platform, if it was a G train, I would have gotten off and taken it, but it was an R with lead car 5596. The F ride was fine, except going through the East River, it was quite slow, we were even held in the tunnel. Then at Lex, I walked from the back of the platform to the front for the escalator. As I got to 53rd street, there was a R142A pulling in.
Well, that was quick and easy... too easy. Next stop, I got off at 42nd. Waited ~8 minutes for the first express, too long for Lexington Ave... The 6 was held there for about 4 minutes during my wait. The first express came, it was a R62 4. Too crowded so I decided to wait for the next train. (It was my intention anywy when I saw the platform quickly get crowded) Next came the redbird 5 train. It was pretty roomy and came about 1 minute after the 4 left.
It was the worst Lexington Ave ride I have ever experienced. It ran slow down Lex and through Joralemon, it wasn't much better. At least we passed the 6 I was on, but that was because some guy was trying to pry his way out of the 6 that was ahead of the one I took at BB. The guy was trapped inside the train and tried to get out. Unsuccessful until a bunch of kids yelled to the conductor. The redbird didn't even bounce through the tunnel. I said OMG, this is crappy, so I couldn't wait until Atlantic and got off at Borough Hall to get to the N.
Long walk through the stairs and platforms, but I made it. To the station anyway, because as I was coming down the stairs, an R32 N pulled out. I walked to the end of the platform and a R46 R train came. Well, it just so happened to have lead car 5596. Got on it thinking that I might get lucky and meet the N at Pacific. Nope. Waited there and after 5 mintes the next train came. It was a N, not a W. Got on and went to Bay Parkway.
Lessons learned:
1. If I had taken the F straight to Bay Parkway, I would gotten off quicker (probably by the time I got to Pacific street) and would only need to wait an uncertain number of minutes ranging from 5 minutes to 45 for the crappiest bus known to me.
2. If Lexington Avenue is messed up, get out of there. Appearently, if the 5 was a little quicker, I would have caught the R32 N I missed at Court Street. (Sure, I could have taken the 4, but it was a sardine can)
3. Broadway local is not so local. If somehow, the empty R train at 71/Continental was still waiting when the F left, and caught up to me at Court Street, my luck must be the worst in the world.
Trip time: 1hr 50min
The transfers on lexington killed you. If you had taken the F to 34th Street and gone straight to the broadway lines you would've probably been better off, by about 1 to 2 R train intervals. You could've even pushed the envelope further by trying to get an express over the bridge and catch an even earlier N train.
The combined time of the long walks at 53rd/lex and atlantic ave probably killed about 10 minutes, waiting at 42nd killed another 10, and the slow 5 train trip was another 5 or so minutes. Any advantage that Lexington avenue had over the F/R/N trains going thru Manhattan is now lost.
Absolutely true. I should have expected that from my luck, but people were saying how Herald Square would be very crowded. Oy, I can't believe I didn't do that...
Next time, listen to the Zman. The LIRR doesn't bite.
Why would you have taken a G from Continental? Stay on the express to Queens Plaza and then think about the local. Unfortunately the local tracks aren't visible from the express tracks most of the way from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza (since they're a few blocks apart) so you can't see what's coming.
Even if you were going for the IRT, it would have been worth changing for the R at Queens Plaza if one happened to be across the platform. It would have taken you directly to an express stop.
The 5 was slow because there was an overcrowded 4 in front of it. That's life. That's also why the entire world tries to push and shove onto the first train -- where both are expresses, the second one is guaranteed to arrive later, even if the first one is slow.
The Borough Hall transfer is not worth it. Climb up, cross over, climb down, walk to the other end of the platform, go through the passageway, walk to the other end of the platform, and go down a series of staircases and escalators. Ugh. Atlantic is much easier and the BMT has an extra intermediate stop between the two.
Locals aren't as slow as they seem. All the complaints about the 2 running local? Eight minutes.
Sorry it took so long. How was the return trip?
Atlantic is much easier and the BMT has an extra intermediate stop between the two.
Yes, Atlantic is much easier, but the way that 5 ran made me sick enought to get off and go through Borough Hall.
Sorry it took so long. How was the return trip?
That was the return trip. I went there with the school's bowling team. We made it to round 2 of the playoffs again, but lost today and lost it all... again. Travelled all the way there to lose... At least I'm not a senior, so there's still next year. Came home to a nice bundle of homework at 8, and am still doing it now. Did I mention how joyous the 40 minute ride was to 250th St and back? Well, I'm not gonna anyway...
Do what i do if it is not raining. If you took the F to Bay parkway, and No bus in site walk, it is only 15-20 minutes to the N Station. if the bus came, take it, if not you have some exercise
... it's another 10 minutes to my house from the N station...
Because of the holiday weekend, I came into New York to dance tango and catch up on subway lines I've never ridden.
Came in from DC on Amtrak Acela Express #2182 (lv WAS 5:30, arr NYP about 8:10 p.m.) The ride is smooth-- and overpriced. Clearly, it's for the business person. At $144 a ticket, it's cheap for businesses, not necessarily for the general public.
My hotel was on 94th and B'way, half a block from the 94th street entrance of the 96th street stop. Excellent location. Friday's night dance (or milonga) was on 19th street. I took the #3 and it was great.
Saturday, I rode the LIRR to Oyster Bay. Despite living on the island for 20+ years, I never rode the train out there. Glad I did. I'm virtually certain I saw Qdashtrain7's laundry hanging out to dry. Back to the city for a tango practice session, which was somewhat helpful, then on to Chelsea Market. Took the #11 bus to 94th & Amsterdam.
After dinner, back downtown to 26th street (28th street station). Took the #2. Because of construction, locals ran express between 72nd and Times Square. So instead of changing from an express train to a local train, the local train changed to an express and then back to a local.
On Sunday, I rode the LIRR to Port Washington. After a shortlayover, back to Penn Station. Then it was the #3 to 96th, #2 to E 180th and waited an eternity for the #5 to Dyre Avenue. I had to wait for about 3 #2s to pass before a #5 came. Why does the #5 go to Dyre Avenue? Because it's so cold waiting at E 180th, passengers are in "dyre" need of heat. Returning to 96th street, had dinner, and then another milonga on 26th street. I stayed 2.5 hours and took the #7 bus to Dancesport (61st and B'way). When I left, the #7 was at the bus stop, as if waiting for me, and took me to 94th and Amsterdam.
On Monday, service returned to normal with locals on the local track.
I had a great weeekend. I plan to return the weekend prior to Xmas for more dancing and more subway riding. I think I'll take the #1 to 242nd street.
Michael
>I think I'll take the #1 to 242nd street.
..Railfan Window a plus!
Again, I link to this wonderful GIF in the Times:
http://www.nytimes.com
/images/2001/11/13/nyregion/011113_met_COLLAPSEmap.gif
Click 'view image', then save it locally.
I doubt they will do anything original without lots of screaming into their faces, but the idea of creating an alternate terminal for the SF run south of Chambers makes enormous sense. You'd go thru the basement of the (collapsed) 7WTC onto Vesey, then drill thru the NW corner of 'the bathtub, building a station, then swinging south onto West St. the alt-terminal station just above the BB tunnel mess. And SF station is rebuilt as a 10-car straight station, with *direct* access to the Joralemon tunnel.
Doing something with the Broadway BMT is also possible. Service that turns back at Whitehall would instead go west, similar to the IRT version. This would reduce service at Cortlandt, Rector and Whitehall by 50% during rush hours. One might avoid breeching 'the bathtub' with this one.
A third option, one close to my heart, is to extend the 8th Ave local tracks south, connecting them with the BMT, but also, leading into a new local termainal station, perhaps under Liberty St.
I doubt they will do anything, tho', beyond making the 1000 foot or so stretch of demolished IRT subway whole again.
I doubt they will do anything, tho', beyond making the 1000 foot or so stretch of demolished IRT subway whole again.
My bet is that the PATH will be tinkered with -- use of old Hudson Terminal platform area, lengthened for 10-car trains -- and connected to the Fulton Street subway complex.
To me, no sense in rerouting subway lines a block or two west. Why not, instead, use the below-ground levels of the former WTC site for a LIRR downtown terminus? Yeah, I know it needs a very expensive tunnel to connect Atlantic Avenue to WTC, but downtown's flaw has always been that it has no commuter rail. This would do as much to make/keep it an attractive area for financial industry workers as any office towers they could build.
"To me, no sense in rerouting subway lines a block or two west. Why not, instead, use the below-ground levels of the former WTC site for a LIRR downtown terminus? Yeah, I know it needs a very expensive tunnel to connect Atlantic Avenue to WTC, but downtown's flaw has always been that it has no commuter rail. "
I like the idea of LIRR service to the former WTC site, and perhaps NJT service there too. But I think that the idea of coming off of Atlantic Avenue is for the birds.
LIRR service should sail down the LIC line and then tunnel under the East river in a southerly direction making landfall under manhattan at Avenue C. Follow that south, looping south of City Hall and into a new WTC/Whatever terminal at a level Below (or at the existing PATH level if that line is move to the upper Hudson Terminal location)
This line would be bored deep, and would not interfere with existing lines and services. There is no way that the Atlantic Avenue LIRR line has the capacity or the speed to handle a major new terminal system. The existing LIC line/RoW is ideal for the purpose.
Additional NJT trains using new tubes, and connecting to both Newark and Seacaucus Transfer would be a Godsend. PATH would then be religated to cross river local traffic, and perhaps serving new, large scale park and ride units on the Jersey side.
Anyway, give a clean slate, that is what I would draw on it.
Elias
LIRR service should sail down the LIC line and then tunnel under the East river in a southerly direction making landfall under manhattan at Avenue C. Follow that south, looping south of City Hall and into a new WTC/Whatever terminal at a level Below (or at the existing PATH level if that line is move to the upper Hudson Terminal location)
This line would be bored deep, and would not interfere with existing lines and services. There is no way that the Atlantic Avenue LIRR line has the capacity or the speed to handle a major new terminal system. The existing LIC line/RoW is ideal for the purpose.
Like the idea in concept. I'd been thinking that this would help downtown Brooklyn by connecting WTC to Atlantic Avenue. But we have several subways that do that already, so specious argument.
Have there been any studies of commuter rail to downtown NYC? I assume most of the focus has been on activating the 63rd Street lower level, but since everything else has been studied, I have to believe that has been too.
And SF station is rebuilt as a 10-car straight station, with *direct* access to the Joralemon tunnel.
Rebuilding the SF terminal as a straight reversing terminal would result in a significant loss of capacity for the West Side local. The Joralemon tunnel is already running at capacity (based on the terminal capacity in Brooklyn) from Lex express service so it cannot compensate for the loss of capacity for a stub terminal.
Rebuilding the SF terminal as a straight reversing terminal would result in a significant loss of capacity for the West Side local.
So what? You know as well as I do that the West Side local operates well below capacity at all times. You think the TA might some day wisen up and add service? I'm not so optimistic. I think it's more likely that the TA will hear the complaints of the Bronx-to-Brooklyn commuters and revert the 2 and 3 to expresses, with the 1 operating only between 242nd and 96th. The worthless local stations south of 96th will be sealed up for good. (Most SubTalkers would love that, I'm sure! Maybe the extra A Division cars could get skirts and be used on some overworked line like the G. Why waste them on a line that barely leaves Manhattan?)
the West Side local operates well below capacity at all times. You think the TA might some day wisen up and add service? I'm not so optimistic. I think it's more likely that the TA will hear the complaints of the Bronx-to-Brooklyn commuters and revert the 2 and 3 to expresses, with the 1 operating only between 242nd and 96th. The worthless local stations south of 96th will be sealed up for good.
You MUST be joking. Whenever I ride it (between 125th & Chambers only, now 14th), the 1 train is PACKED. And those "worthless local stations" include things like Lincoln Center, the priciest UWS neighborhoods, Chelsea and the West Village. CLOSE them? Hah! ROTFLMAO.
You must be new here. That post was sarcasm. I live near the 86th Street station. I have long been bemoaning the outrageous treatment the local stations between 42nd and 96th get. When the 2 and 3 both ran express, alternate rush hour 1's also ran express after they fell behind schedule due to overcrowding. It seems obvious to me, but when there are more expresses than locals to begin with, the reason the locals fall behind is that lots of people are trying to get to the local stops, and the TA's response only makes matters worse. Now that the 2 is supposedly running local, the 1 seems to be better, but when I'm waiting at 86th, most 2's that I see are zipping by on the express track.
In number of passengers per scheduled train (pre-9/11), I'll bet the West Side local stations are at or near the top of the list. In number of passengers per actual train (so locals that bypass local stations don't count), they've got to be at the very top. Yet many of the intelligent posters here have been so overtaken by express fever (hey, I enjoy a good express ride too, and we certainly have one on the West Side!) that they fail to recognize that locals provide the basic service and that that basic need on the UWS is not being met.
You must be new here.
Not new, but had dropped off the boards in disgust at the end of last year ... now I'm back. Glad to know it was sarcasm. It didn't SEEM like anyone posting here would think that, but ya never know ....
Doppler effect (also called Doppler shift): The change in the apparent time interval between two events which arises from the motion of an observer together with the finite velocity of information about the events.
Doppler effect is often used to mean frequency shifts (Doppler shift) of acoustic and electromagnetic waves because of relative motion between sources and observers. The relative magnitude of a Doppler shift is of order of the ratio of a characteristic (e.g. speed of a source) to a speed of propagation (e.g., speed of sound, speed of light). A shift to lower frequency (relative to a reference frequency) is sometimes called a red shift whereas a shift to higher frequency is sometimes called a blue shift, although no colorimetric meaning should be attached to these terms. Acoustic waves do not evoke sensations of color, nor do electromagnetic waves outside the visible spectrum, and even Doppler shifts of visibile light are so small as to yeild no visually perceptible color changes. According to classical theory, there is no frequency shift of electromagnetic radiation for motion of a transmitter perpendicular to the line between receiver and transmitter. But according to relativistic theory, even for this kind of motion there is a Doppler shift (transverse Doppler shift), although it is appreciably smaller than the longitudidnal Doppler shift.
Definition from Glossary of Meteorology, Second Edition, American Meteorological Society, 2000, Todd Glickman - Managing Editor.
Put simply it's why the tone of the whistle changes as you pass the train going in the other direction! &!@#$% Weathermen!
The only time you really see a visible Doppler affect in light is when either the source or the observer is moving at close to the speed of light. For example, the light we get from quasars, which, at least when their light was emitted billions of years ago, were moving away from us at close to the speed of light, the light they emit is shifted to lower frequencies.
I saw a bumber sticker once that was on a red background and read "If this sticker is blue you're driving too fast."
Mark
Doppler frequency shift: In general, the change in frequency of a signal reaching a receiver when the receiver and the transmitting source are in motion relative to one another.
This phenomenon was first noted for sound waves by the Austrian physicist Christian Johann Doppler (1803-53) in 1842. In meteorology, this effect is successfully employed with remote sensors, such as Doppler radars and Doppler lidars, in which the receiver (collocated with the transmitter) is fixed and only the scatterers (upon which transmitted power impinges and is reradiated) are moving. The frequency shift f, induced by a scatterer having a radial component of motion v, relative to the radar may be expressed as:
f = -2(vr/l)
where l is the wavelength of the transmitter, f is positive for motion toward the radar, and, by the usual convention, vr is positive for motion away from the radar.
[Note: 'l' = the Greek letter "lambda" and 'vr' is v(sub-r)]
Definition from Glossary of Meteorology, Second Edition, American Meteorological Society, 2000, Todd Glickman - Managing Editor.
On the LIRR Forum someone started a thread asking for your favorite LIRR line. Since there is a running thread on this forum asking for your favorite subway line and since alot of posters here don't read the LIRR Forum I thought I'd start the thread here.
What is your favorite LIRR Line. (I know John loves the Oyster Bay Branch by Sea Cliff)
My favorite line is the is a two way tie between the Main Line and the Brooklyn Line. Honorable mention goes to the Oyster Bay Branch and the Long Is City Branch. (Even though there is only one train now and it doesn't make any stops)
Sorry, but I put the wrong link on my previous post. I put the link for the NY Railfan. The link to the LIRR forum is:http://www.railroad.net/forums/lirr
Hi, Sarge. Thanks for the post.
Favorite LIRR Lines: The Greenport Branch (for the scenic aspects), followed second by the Bay Ridge Branch (interesting combination of cut, embankment and grade Right-Of-Way).
BMTman
I always wanted to ride the Greenport Line and thought I would when my son wanted to go to the Riverhead Aquarium. Their website stated the LIRR as a way to get there but if you check the schedule there is no way you can really use the LIRR to get there.(unless you plan on spending about 9 hrs at the aquarium) Also the station is about a mile away.
Service out on the East end is very infrequent. I've always wanted to ride the train there but the trains are so infrequent.
I to would like to ride all the way out to Montalk
Jeffrey: I always wanted to ride the Greenport Line
Brighton Bob: I to would like to ride all the way out to Montauk
At one time you could have done both on the same train:
Wow! I had no idea that route even existed.
:-) Andrew
Wow! I had no idea that route even existed.
How about this one:
Wow! Next you're gonna say the LIRR hooked up with the Orient Express!
:-) Andrew
Gee I could have bet real hard cash you would say Bay Ridge....
Bay Ridge was great, especially when the New Haven had the big EP 3 thru 5 with 100 car freights. In fact I saw more New Haven Trains on it then Long island
Port Washington Branch...no change at Jamaica, and unlike the south shore branches the line has kept some semblance of small-townishness once you're east of Bayside. It boasts one of the few NYC grade crossings, at Little Neck.
I'm partial to it, it's my home branch (Broadway), but also because for 7 years I enjoyed riding it east to PW each day to my job at a popular direct marketing company, which I will not name here. (Subtalker Charles G knows the place).
The line is near-rural east of Manhasset; east of Great Neck the line crosses the highest bridge in the MTA (higher than the Gowanus Canal viaduct on the IND, I believe)
www.forgotten-ny.com
That's my second favorite electric line. The stretch between Jamaica and Mineola used to be great, but lately it's just not as fast.
"The stretch between Jamaica and Mineola used to be great, but lately it's just not as fast. "
Not to confuse anybody I meant the main line in that comment.
a popular direct marketing company
You may already be a winner!!
a popular direct marketing company
You may already be a winner!!
Favorite Electric line is of course Far Rockaway being that i live near the rosedale station. Favorite Diesel is Montauk
"Favorite Electric line is of course Far Rockaway being that i live near the rosedale station"
I guess your favorite line then becomes the Long Beach on a weekend!
I like West Hempstead and Hempstead even though I live near Babylon.
The stations on those lines are interesting, more so than the cookie-cutter designs on the Babylon line (with the exception of Massapequa).
wayne
For almost 40 years I've been planning to ride the West Hempstead Branch and for some reason never have. I've driven along the line many times and think the Malverne Station on Hempstead Av looks small townish. I actually remember when the track went N/O the W.Hempstead Station and crossed Hempstead Tnpk by IHOP & White Castle. Remember S Klein on the Square?
I like West Hempstead and Hempstead even though I live near Babylon.
West Hempstead trains are nicely uncrowded, a wonderful change from the Ronkonkoma horror shows.
The Oyster Bay and Port Jeff Branch are my favorites because of the scenic wooded areas.
The run from Hicksville to Port Jefferson is gorgeous at some points. Rolling wooded hills and many sparsely populated areas.
Also the eastern Montauk Branch is a beaut, as is the ride to Riverhead and Greenport.
:-) Andrew
I'm a fan of the West Hempstead for a few reasons (some already mentioned) -- uncrowded trains and a trip mainly through residential backyards rather than commercial neighborhoods, a rarity for the LIRR in Nassau. Then there are the unique stations. Lakeview, which is basically a platform hidden behind some stores -- you could be standing 20 yards away from it and you might not find it if you didn't know it was there. Malverne, which seems like something out of the 1800's. And Westwood, which I believe is the only LIRR at grade through station without a nearby street crossing. Also, for a single track line it's odd that the platforms alternate sides of the train at each consecutive station.
CG
Favorite diesel line-the Oyster Bay branch (yes the OB branch). PJ line is scenic but the one track really leads to alot of holding. The OB is more scenic in some ways and it's 2 tracks all the way to Locust Valley
Favorite electric line-The Babylon line. For speed nothing beats it, plus the views from the elevated portions are nice. Service is very frequent.
Hempstead Line, because of its history - The ROW from Floral Park to Garden City was part of the Central RR of LI. Also, a line from Mineola to Hempstead was the first branch line built by the LIRR - back in 1839.
My favorite is the "M" electrics on the Babylon branch. It's not the stations or the scenery, it's the SPEED of the MU cars doing 70 or more along the Sunrise Highway. There's a set of switches just before Lynbrook that will make you hold your breath as you zoom over them.
Mr rt__:^)
Speed devil, are ya??????? :-D
I think the Montauk Branch is my favorite---long rides in between stations, and my girlfriend lives near it, so...I'm biased towards that one :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Another is the Flatbush line. Newbees at the front window tend to bit their fingernails as you speed above Atlantic Ave. (you are hanging over the road, with no hand or guard rail to give you a since of security).
Mr rt__:^)
The line was even better with the pre-war MU trains before the M-1's with same sounds as the pre-war subway cars especially in the tunnel between ENY & Jamaica. Although they were full length cabs then the engineers always let kids enter to look through the railfan window.
Mr. T, I kinda thought that would be your reason....
...yes, the 'brown streak switches' outside Valley Stream can be something as an MU is going 'full throttle' through the interchange with West Hempstead Branch.
BMTman
The Oyster Bay Branch, because it still has a lot of the old station Buildings. Long Island City would be second, well probably before they closed the "stations". I just liked the fact that they would stop at a grade crossing with a sign, and call it a station, a 1 or 2 people would occasionally get on or off.
The old Ozone Park Line, because when I was a kid and visited family in Rego Park, I was able to watch the trains from the Rego Park Station, being pulled by the old K4s and 5s or The Fairbank Morse Diesals, double deck MU Cars
Hard to say. I have a fondness for all of them, but lean towards branches with a lot of crossings and speed. By that criteria, the Main/Ronkonkoma branch would fit the bill. The speed west of Hicksville can sometimes be held down by congestion, but the straightaways east of there can be incredible. Stations are far enough apart that even locals can really shake and rattle- especially between Wyandanch and Deer Park.
The electric Nassau-only lines are disappointing for their lack of speed or length, but they offer nice views of village centers and backyards, especially along the Far Rockaway branch. The Long Beach branch is distinguished by a dramatic trestle over Reynolds Channel.
The Babylon branch can be considered basically the Sunrise Highway El, and since I often drive that way, there's little novelty in riding the local. But the weekend expresses are well worth it, especially if the front window is available. Once the line enters Suffolk and sheds Sunrise, things improve markedly. Somehow the train seems to get even faster on the 1973 viaduct through Belmont Junction-maybe the metal grid side railing provides the illusion.
All the diesel lines have great scenery and lotsa crossings. The Oyster Bay reminds one that Nassau County does have some rural areas left. The Port Jeff runs through some nice countryside both in electrified territory east of Syosset and diesel territory east of Kings Park. Spectacular trestle and view of the Sound between Saint James and Stony Brook.
If you've got all day, the outer Montauk branch is a revelation of what the Island used to be- increasing numbers of housing excavations along the ROW notwithstanding. Scenery along the Montauk from Babylon through Bellport isn't all that different than in Nassau, what with heavy development and frequent crossings. Bellport through Hampton Bays is heavily wooded. The bridge over the Shinnecock Canal kind of announces you're in a different world altogether. The increasing presence of horse farms and estates reinforce this. Past East Hampton, the atmosphere becomes very maritime, with the ocean on one side and Peconic Bay on the other.
Even more difficult schedule wise is venturing east of Ronkonkoma. I recall you have to leave Jamaica around 8:00 AM. Once you enter diesel territory, it's a combination of wooded and industrial through Yaphank, and heavily agricultural after that- except for when you pass through Riverhead, which resembles a small Midwestern or Southern town more than a Long Island hamlet. East of Riverhead, farms with private crossings abound, and some nice views of Peconic bay frequently pop up. Greenport is unexpectedly developed for its remoteness, and unlike Montauk, has places to walk and eat.
Port Wash is most familiar to me as running through northeastern Queens territory I grew up in, so it's always nice to view it from the ROW. Its proximity to the shore means great views of Little Neck and Manhasset Bays.
Due to excessively high city zone fares, I seldom ride west of Jamaica or Flushing. There's great speed on both lines east from Woodside and a nice tour of the Sunnyside yards west of it. And like most of you, I regret the extremely limited and expensive service on the diesel branch to LIC. Absence does make the heart grow fonder.
Am I the only one who loves the Brooklyn Line?? I think the stretch between Jamaica & ENY is probably the fastest underground run in NY, even faster than the Central Park West subway run between 59St & 125St. I love trying to find the Woodhaven Station (which I actually remember stopping at) which when going E/B comes just after going over some switches.
I like the Jamaica-Flatbush run too, particularly the above ground run on Atlantic Ave in Bed-Stuy.
:-) Andrew
My favorite is same sas yours. I like the underground portion when the train hits 70+ MPH. One of the fastest portiopns on the LIRR.
I like the Port Jeff line too but they really need to double track the thing. Its a nightmare during rush hour with the single track.
Jeff, you are right about it being one of the fastest runs, but I tend to judge my fav LIRR lines on the scenic advantages. The run between ENY and Jamaica would be interesting IF the train you were traveling in were to lose interior lighting (so you could get a glimpse at the old Woodhaven station platform).
Of course the classic El structure on Atlantic Ave. between Nostrand and ENY is a nice ROW.
BMTman
A Forgotten fan snuck onto the tracks some years ago and snapped what remains of Woodhaven station (nothing really dramatic, actually). If anyone wants to see the picture, just let me know and I'll attach it to the response. I haven't yet found a place for it in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Chances are the walls are pretty much bare. Maybe some stairways that are now the emergency exits. I wonder if there was another level that would have been used as a Ticket office/waiting room? Unless the picture has something unusual, I'll settle for a description in words.
I don't think there was a mezzanine level there with ticket offices. The station was very lightly used when I remember it in the '60s. Only one or two trains stopped there per day. Even less than the stations on the LIC Branch. I am showing my age but I DO remember stopping there in the '60s. However I'm sure the station was used more often when the Rockaway Branch passes overhead with people transferring to and fro. If there was any ticket office I assume it would be in the Woodhaven Junction Station upstairs since trains there went to Penn Station and Woodside instead of just Flatbush and Jamaica.
I've never been down there. I'm just guessing what kind of station it was. I figure it was a plain station. Maybe a few signs on the walls that said "WOODHAVEN". Maybe a transfer sign or 2. Probably 2 stairways going out. If they just went to the street or went directly to the upper platforms, I don't know. All I know is what I've seen from the front cars of passing trains along there. Which isn't much.
I haven't yet found a place for it in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm sure I could find a place in www.lirrhistory.com! :-)
The LIRR Long Island City branch is my fav, but I also like the Central stretch between Bethpage and Babylon. Once upon a time in the AM you used to be able to ride both on the same train. Then they diverted it to NYP...
The West Hempstead is pretty cool though, I try to ride it as often as possible since I have a dread they'll close it one day. It won't be the first time the MTA abandons something they just rehabilitated...
I know it's all a matter of opinion, but somebody on the LIRR Forum board stated that the Port Washington Branch was "pretty nice". I have to disagree. Of all of the branches of the LIRR, that one is the most "subway like", and if it was a subway line it would be o.k., but as a commuter rail line, it's very boring, especially in the Bayside area. I believe there was talk years ago about connecting the #7 train in Flushing to the Port Wash line, due to the fact it was so much like a subway.
I think there was some talk years ago about a connection from the IRT via Corona Yards to the Port Washington Branch. There might have also been plans about having the IRT also going to Whitestone via the old Whitestone Branch. As a kid there used to be between Willet's Point Blvd (The Blvd. NOT the station!) and the Flushing River an abondoned track that had on it train cars that were knocked off its tracks. Reminded me of a trainset I had under my Christmas Tree.
There might have also been plans about having the IRT also going to Whitestone via the old Whitestone Branch.
Yes there was. You can read about it here
Great pictures Bob. I didn't realize the line was single tracked. Also I always thought it was electric because it came off the Port Washington Branch but I guess I was wrong as there was no third rail in the pictures. By the way, the picture of the Flushing Station, is that Northern Blvd with the trolley tracks?
Anyone know if the tracks or ROW is still intact to
Millerton?? I remember a freight customer a few years ago
that got deliveries. I've heard route 22 is packed during
the rush hours.
Anyone know if the tracks or ROW is still intact to Millerton?? I remember a freight customer a few years ago that got deliveries. I've heard route 22 is packed during the rush hours.
I had heard that the ROW was all overgrown north of Dover Plains and had to be rebuilt for the Wassaic extension. It may be intact as far as Millerton, but rebuilding it will be a major task.
If it's not already a rail trail or given back to the abutters.
I ate in a restaurant in Millerton, along the right of way, just a few weeks ago. The right-of-way in town itself seems intact, but i couldn't tell you if it connected with Wassaic.
Wassaic was fairly easy to extend to because it wasn't officially abandoned to that point and track (unusable) was actually still in place. It would be great to go to Millerton, but the right of way has gone back to nature, but I think it is intact as far as ownership. Does anyone know for fact if it is, and who owns it?
Jhon Becker posts on ST?
Okay, you haven't had a "rant" from me, but I'd like to do a small
one:
Those canned announcements on the new subway cars are a d---ed shame.
One of the joys of riding the subways was always the glimpse into
not only the emotional state of the person making the announcement,
but also their country or boro of origin.
Did they love and expand the job by slipping in travel guide information? Cease
to make the announcement at all due to apathy? Make it in their
best deejay voice, cadged from their favorite radio station or ball
park...
The "Watch the closing doors" announcement is my least favorite. The
cars are from Canada, but I could swear it has a midwest kind of
cheeriness to it - not that there's anything wrong with that - but
this is New York City, and it has not a drop of NYC flavor to it!
Even the taxis have a roster of famous NEW YORKERS making their
seatbelt announcements.
As a voice actor, I can say this isn't sour grapes, the famous line
being "Why wasn't I up for that job?" It's just common sense.
I'd rather hear someone with a NYC accent so thick you could cut
it with a knife, than these folks. Give us back our voices!
I agree with you, grrrl. I'd love the job too.
"Watch the clozin' dawz, please. It's 52 degrees and sunny up there."
Transit and weather together in an announcement? Next you'll be telling us how many shopping days till Christmas.
Wouldn't they all love it if we started reading commercials to them,
Todd? I saw my first elevator with news and commercials playing on
a moniter last week. Why not, I guess? Talk about a captive
audience...we have the car card ads, now with improved sound, we'd
have Transit Radio commercials. We could make a mint!!
Subway Grrl
I understand your feelings, but I only wish that the majority of human announcements had any sense of NYC or character to them. Most of them are barely understandable, slurred, delivered in non-US accents so thick that they're incomprehensible and/or convey that the speaker's boredom, disinterest and/or contempt is so profound that they shame the system.
Why not have rotating announcements, like the "fasten seatbelts" announcements in taxis? I'm not wild about the celeb voices, but you could vary the tapes so you get different people on different lines or different days.
I'm all for NYC accents, but standardization in this case is a GOOD thing. More information is conveyed more consistently and understandably. That CAN'T be bad.
My two cents ....
Recorded announcements in taxis!!!!!
Hell!! I've just got to get out more.
I can remember the very first announcements in the R-16's...
"Moirtle Ave, Moirtle Ave Watchastepgettingoff, Next stop Koskeyosko Street, Watchadoors!
I take it he didn't include, "15 to 168th St".
The number 15 made its visual debut with the R-16's. While the number 15 may have been in the paperwork for years, riders still referred to it as the Jamaica train. On the BMT in those days people referred to the Canarsie train, the Culver, the Myrtle-Chambers etc.
On the IND it was a different story where riders would look for the A train, the C train, the GG etc. All IND equipment had front signboards, whereas on the BMT we looked for the color of the front marker lights.
It made a big difference, for sure. The IND had route signs on all equipment right from the start while only a small percentage of BMT equipment did.
I still refer to today's L line as the Canarsie.
The "Watch the closing doors" announcement is my least favorite. The
cars are from Canada, but I could swear it has a midwest kind of
cheeriness to it
You must've experienced riding a R142. I've ridden a R142A twice on the #6 line between Brooklyn Bridge and 51 St. - Lex Av., and the announcements sound fine because they don't have "cheery" voices.
I've only seen an R142 on the #2 line 4 times, but didn't hear any automated voices. Everyone says the voices are "happy go lucky" kind of voices, but I want to experience it on my own.
Try an R142A. The voices have no sort of emotion, esp. the male voice. I like it because it sounds informative and the announcements made are ABSOLUTELY CLEAR on the inside AND the outside of the train.
: )
Railfan Pete.
You can hear on the outisde?
You can hear on the outisde?
Yes you can. I discharged at 51 St. Lex Av. with my mom and I heard the female voice CLEARLY speak "The next stop is, 42nd St. Grand Central" on the PLATFORM.
No you didn't. Either you heard the internal announcement through the open doors or you heard a manual station announcement.
The announcements on the R-142 and R-142A are identical.
No... The trains have external speakers. Just like Philly M-4, LIRR C-3. Some trains (but not all) will make the in-station announcement through the external speakers on the side of the open doors.
Which trains? I have never heard an external announcement on any subway car, ever, and I've ridden both the R-142 and the R-142A more than a few times.
The R-142 and R-142A cars (and the R-143s) are being built with exterior speakers. In addition, R-62 cars were retrofitted about ten years ago.
David
I've never seen an R62 with an exterior speaker.
Look harder. There are holes in the carbody between the horizontal stainless steel "stripes."
David
Not 62A, just R-62. On the 4.
The exterior speakers on the R62 cars have been disabled.
On the COMM panel in the cab, the crew has the option of Internal Speakers or External/Internal Speakers. Since either choice becomes the default when the Comm system is returned to automatic announcements, most crews never change it from the way it had been set. Since external announcements can be very annoying at 0300 on elevated sections, it usually gets left on Internal.
I was not aware that the speakers have been disabled. When, and on whose order (I have access to recent RTO Bulletins and have not seen one about it)?
David
Well, if so, WHY were they disabled?
Subway grrl
Don't know. In the four years I've been down here, I have NEVER found them working on the R62s:therefore I am forced to believe that they have been disabled.
I know that the speakers exist. I have never in my life heard them in use -- R-62, R-142, or R-142A.
(I did once hear a bus's external speakers in use. I was waiting at a decoy bus stop -- a bus stop shelter that wasn't actually at a bus stop -- and the driver of the passing M4 helpfully told me as he zoomed by that I was two blocks away from the real stop. Yes, he waited.)
Nassau County bus drivers use them to yell at people.
I did check today and saw that speaker bezels are mounted on the sides of R142s. I have never used them....it is far more important to stand beneath the trainset and do a 'visual' before I yell out 'in the hole in the hole emergency brakes' and wack the trip. Peter
The 62's speakers were disabled because of the feedback,that loud squeal when making announcements.The 142's have the option of turning the speaker on and off.But Guess what on the 142 the squel is even worse, there has been talk already of changing the PA on the 142a and 142.One of the Techs I spoke to at the East (East 180)said when the next batch ,the option order , look for the whole announcement scheme to be scrapped. No more automatic Voices We can go back to 10 second station stops YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No more automatic Voices We can go back to 10 second station stops YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And we can go back to non-existent or inaudible or otherwise useless announcements, which is what I experience the overwhelming majority of the time in NYC on any train that's not an R142. Oh well. I must be the only one who likes automatic announcements.
I've heard conductors make very clear announcements on the R142's (clearer than anything I've heard on any other NYC subway train), presumably by just shutting off the outside speakers to eliminate the horrible feedback squealing. The outside speakers are then only used by the automated announcement that says "This is a Bronx-bound six train, the next stop is..." ... all other announcements are only in the interior speakers. Is it that hard for conductors to choose which speakers to direct their announcements to?
No, the interior and exterior PA speakers are selected by pushbuttons on three comm panels: one for each side of the train and a 'master' over the T/Os console with radio control. Haven't tried it out completely...I use the system to warn of brake tests. Peter
He was lying (or misinformed) if he said no more announcements. ADA requirement that blind people understand what's being said.
ADA doesn't require the announcements to be automated, though.
When we test the R142 PAs, the feedback will clean your ears out only if the soundproof cab door is open (and maybe a window too.) Peter
The in-station automated announcement indicating the train, direction, and next station are often (but I guess not always) played through the external speakers in addition to the interior speakers. I've only heard the other automated announcements on the interior speakers alone. From the station platform the difference is quite noticeable, since the "This is a Bronx-bound six train..." announcement echoes all over the place in the station, and the "Stand clear of the closing doors please" announcement right after seems to come only from inside the cars, even though both are made while the doors are still open.
HEY.....I will look tomorrow undercar/carbody. Peter
I have been in various stations as both the R142 and R142A arrive. I can never hear anything even hinting an exterior announcement being made.
If I remember the pictures of the conductor panel in those properly, you DO have to switch on the patio speakers for them to work. :)
The announcements on the R-142 and R-142A are identical.
If you say so, relay it to your fellow SubTalkers, because that's where I got that info. from. I've never experienced one on my own so I trust the people in Subtalk and they say the announcements on R142 trains are more "joyous" than R142A's.
You know, I could learn some things here.
Besides this of course.
The announcements on the R-142 and R-142A are identical.
If you say so, relay it to your fellow SubTalkers, because that's where I got that info. from. I've never experienced one on my own so I trust the people in Subtalk and they say the announcements on R142 trains are more "joyous" than R142A's.
You know, I could learn some things here.
Besides this of course.
Hey, I learn here too! Peter
And I too! I'm just trying to clear up some miscommunication between David and his fellow SubTalkers, and how I trust the people in SubTalk to provide valid information.
And if they say announcements on R142's are more "joyous" and happy than R142A's, then I'll cope with it. But someone else here says that they're identical, and I want to relay to him where I got the info. from, that's all.
Where is my information from? Oh, a few dozen R-142 rides and a few dozen R-142A rides. Is that satisfactory to you?
There are only a handful of canned announcements available. Possibility is that some trains might have announcements enabled that others don't. 'Namaste, next stop is Times Square. Pleeese watch the closing doors thankyouverymuch.' Peter
Well, if that's the case, how come SubTalkers complain that R142 announcements are worse than R142A's because they sound more "joyous"?
Hey, I've never experienced it and I am looking forward to.
I don't know. I haven't seen any such complaints.
They do - not that I'm complaining, except for that whole express thing. For example, the R142 female voice announces 86th Street in a higher pitched voice ("eighty-SIXTH street") than the R142A voice does ("EIGTHY-sixth street"). I may be the only one who notices this.
Wait, let me add something to that. I think the difference is in the announcements for each line. Why? because when I rode the R142/R142A combo on the 6 last summer, I rode in R142 #6336. The 6 line announcements sounded exactly the same as they did on the R142As. So I think it's more accurate to say that the 2 line announcements are more "joyous" than the 6 line announcements.
Why do you repete the same post twice?
I've got a new name fore you railfan repete
I agree. Having celebrities record station announcements would have been a cute idea. Imagine Bette Midler announcing stations. LOL
I want to hear an announcement with adistinctively 'Hindi' accent like the guys I work with at the yard......I laugh all day even when the work is troublesome. 'Pleeese watch the closing doors thankyouverymuch.' Peter
Our LRVs in Denver have canned announcements, male in one direction, female in the other. During the recent split-service diversion, operators were making announcements on the 30th Ave.-14th Street half; apparently there is no programmed sequence for announcements if the destination signs are set for 14th St. That's understandable; I doubt if such a pattern will ever be implemented unless the original line is lengthened to the north of 30th Ave.
That Male/Female voice distribution sounds fair!
;) Subwaygrrl
It's especially cool if you're on a train headed for 18th Street. Such trains loop around downtown, and the next thing you know the voice on the announcements has changed!
I got a friend of mine who has got one good NYC accent. When I told her about the emotionless voices, she actually did a good announcement with her accent.
At least ditch the guy. The alternating voices are annoying, and even if they did have emotion, they would still be that way.
Canal Street Station on the (Q) and (W) platforms are sinking. This is the reason for your broken rail.
If I heard it correctly, they are in the middle of scrambling for ideas to reinforce the station.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
That station even though it is rehabilitated is always full of water coming through the ceiling and a smell that will never go away
They don't call it Canal St. for nothing.:-)
Right, remember how the street got it s name, from the Canal that used to be there way back when
If I'm not mistaken, isn't there also quicksand in that area, along with what-used-to-be-a-canal?
Well, quicksand was discovered during construction of the original Contract One line.
The orignal Contract One line (now known as the Lexington Av. subway) is at the western end of the Bridge line platforms (with the Nassau st. loop subway at the eastern end). Maybe Col. Parson's boys missed a spot during construction.
And you can see where the tracks spread apart at the eastern (south) end. The Nassau line passes directly above that spot. Brian Cudahy mentions the quicksand in Under the Sidewalks of New York; I just don't remember at the moment exactly where it was discovered.
1670
It's also a very swampy unstable region. That's one of the reasons why Midtown was developed in the 20th Century instead of continuing to expand Downtown northward.
With all due respect, I kindly ask that you please don't use the term: "quicksand" when talking about the Canal Street area. There really is no such thing as quicksand -- it is a product of the imagination.
There is soil with poor bearing capacity in that area, as there are in many other areas of New York. All structures settle, it is just a matter of how fast.
When you talk of quicksand, you conjure up images of science fiction movies, with people sinking in the stuff. Of course, it is impossible for someone to sink on their own in any type of mud, sand, or soil -- unless you really, really tried and tied a cinder block to your ankle.
MATT-2AV
Quicksand exists when water under pressure is forced up through a bed of sand or mud, causing the individual grains of sand to separate and thus become unable to bear the weight of anyone or thing that may be standing upon it. You can duplicate this in a lab with simple and easily available apparatus. Water under pressure can come from an underground aquifer or spring, or even from a tidal estuary. The thing with quicksand is that the area looks stalbe, but you will sink into it if you try to stand on it.
I read that in a bed of quicksand, the grains are round and smooth as opposed to sharp-edged in a normal bed of sand. Instead of pulling together when wet, those round, smooth grains roll over one another and do not pull together.
Hmmm.... I don't know. That may be true.
I do know that it depends on the density and void ratio of the soil, as well as the upflow water pressure.
By the way, I never told you this, but your handle was the inspiration for mine. I wanted to pick mine after the future 2nd Avenue line instead, as much as I love that wicked express run under CPW.
MATT-2AV
The shape of the sand grains is not what makes quicksand, but rather the water being forced up through it under pressure. That is what makes the sand unstable to stand on, not the shape of the individual grains.
JailhouseDoc,
I always appreciate your posts, and please pardon me for splitting hairs over this. Im not asserting that you are incorrect (far from it), I am trying to clarify a difference in terminology.
"Contrary to popular belief, it is not possible to drown in quicksand, unless you really work at it, because the density of quicksand is much greater than water. Since you can almost float in water, you should be able to float in quicksand." Holtz, R.D. and Kovacs, W.D. An Introduction to Geotechnical Engineering (1981).
The quicksand you see in the movies is purely a figment of the imagination. To differentiate between quicksand you see in movies and actual soil conditions in nature or the laboratory, the term liquefaction or quick condition is used to describe the phenomenon.
Liquefaction occurs when the effective stresses throughout the material are zero. Its pretty cool, because anything on or in the soil with a specific gravity greater than the soil-water mixture will sink as if it were in actual water. Conversely, any structure with a specific gravity less than the soil-water mixture will rise to the surface.
I highly doubt that this condition is occurring at Canal Street, for the station shell would certainly have moved more than 4 inches. I cant even begin to speculate what the overall specific gravity of a station is, but I imagine it is actually less than water alone. If a quick condition were occurring, the station would uplift. I know that open tanks in the ground, such as swimming pools, will uplift if drained to quickly, or a heavy rain occurs after drainage.
Moreover, as with a ship in the ocean, the station shell would have to be watertight to avoid uplift. The buoyant pressure would force water in through any crack, and I havent been to all the subway stations, but just about all of them that Ive been to are, how shall we say, porous. My favorite is the river at 5th Avenue and 59th Street.
In short, if there were a quick condition, I figure the station would uplift instead of sink, and since uplifting is not occurring (and probably wouldnt because of seepage), I speculate that there is instead a problem of poor bearing capacity in the soil. Compaction is simply causing greater than desired settling.
Compaction and liquefaction are two different phenomenon.
MATT-2AV
About 1973-74,there were plans included in the 2nd ave line's Water st branch for a new Canal st subway......
There's a never-used tunnel already there. I caught a glimpse of it from a diamond Q last month.
Thats the tunnel to the west side[old Triboro subway routing before the plans were changed].The new route was planed to replace the current Bridge line along with a new 2nd ave subway in 1974.
Isn't that the planned connection to Wo Hop's?
love that joint
They had 10 years for ideas.
Newsweek ran the photo, its on Page 56 of the November 19th Issue. Looks pretty good. This is my first published photo, so I'm as gitty as school girl right now! :o)
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Was that in the feature "Manhattan 2010"? I saw that. It showed a view of Manhattan with traces of where a 2nd Avenue subway would run, as well as a 7 train extension to the West Side and a JFK subway.
Mark
Yep That's It, That R-142 Photo is mines! :o)
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Well here's to the day when we'll see your photos of 2nd Avenue and JFK subway trains in national magazines!
Mark
And it's signed for the (7)! Was that a photomanip or did you get a T/O to sign it that way?
:-) Andrew
When I took the photo, it was a (6), Newsweek manipulated the photo themselves.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
>>When I took the photo, it was a (6), Newsweek manipulated the photo themselves. <<
Do they have the right to do that?
Basically yes, because the picture was sold to them not just given to them.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Trevor,
Just out of curiosity. Doesn't the MTA have this thing about taking pictures for commercial purposes?
I don't remember seeing any limitation on what you can use the photos for- just limitations on the equipment you use to take them (without a permit). Besides, commercial is not the same as for the press... even if they did doctor the photo :-)
Speaks VOLUMES for the credibility of "Newsweek" ... doctored photos, no matter what the justification destroy such credibility ...
The digital manipulation ethics issue has been out there for about a decade now. One of the earliest I remember was the St. Louis Post Dispatch getting in trouble for digitally eliminating a can of Diet Coke from a photo of a woman sitting in back of a table, and of course Time got in trouble in 1994 for digitally darkening the picture of O.J. they used on the cover after his arrest.
As more and more newspapers and magazines go to digital cameras and editing and the image quality of the digital cameras goes up, you're likely to see more and more of this type of stuff. (and a mea cupla -- I once digitally flipped a number 9 on a gas station price sign being used to show fuel price drop because the store clerk had dropped the price that day but put the number of backwards, mainly to make her not look like some type of dyslexic idiot. Newsweek's changing of the No. 6 to a No. 7 AFAIK has no purpose in trying to improve the photo other than the fact that someone either figured John Rocker made the 7 the most famous IRT line in the country -- or the photo editor lives in Queens and is desperately hoping the R-142s replace the Redbirds soon.)
Having once been a journalist myself, I find it excrable UNLESS it is done with a footnote describing that the image has been modified. And yes, I'm quite aware of the other instances. I just don't approve of it being done in a journalistic medium where credibility is an important thing. Now doctored images on CNN, MSNBC, Fox or other tabloid mentality outlets is another thing entirely. :)
>>> Having once been a journalist myself, I find it excrable UNLESS it is done with a footnote describing that the image has been modified. <<<
Thank goodness the National Enquirer would never stoop so low. :-)
Tom
They still printing that thing? Eek! Means the Midnight Sun still walks by night. Yipe. :)
doctored photos, no matter what the justification destroy...credibility ...
Years ago the publisher of the Philly Inquirer had a shit list of people whose photos he refused to publish in the paper. This was well known and people went to great lengths to attempt to circumvent the banishment. On the occasion of the annual Jefferson-Jackson day dinner (biggest Philly Democrat fund raiser), a listee was seated at the head table between the Mayor and the President (LBJ). He never left his seat while the two were there, so the Inkie photog couldnt get a picture without his being in it. The next morning the photograph appeared on page 1 with the listee airbrushed out.
If it was noted that the picture had been altered, no problem. If it wasn't, I'll add the Philly Enquirer to CNN, MSNBC and the Brokaw/Anthrax network as "skipped channels" ... the number of reputable news sources has been shrinking quickly in my book lately. Thank God for CBC/NWI ...
No, it was not noted that the picture was altered.
The Philadelphia Warriors (the NBA team in Philly before the franchise moved to san Francisco and the Syracuse Nationals became the 76ers) were also on Moe's shit list. The TV listing listed their games as "pro basketball". His ban, however, did not extend to the sports pages.
Heh. I guess that's why I prefer our local TimesUnion ... a Hearst operation, but pretty independent. They wouldn't pull a game like that although they have published photos with "retouched" in the caption. It's not like that chews up a whole lot of column inches. But one thing that puts any rag on my sheetlist is being lied to. I'm thinking Rupert Murdoch's rag as but one.
I bought a copy of Newsweek and saw the photo. Very nice - right at the top of the page.
One thing I did look for was the photo credit expecting to see Trevor's name but what do I find at the bottom of pg 57 but:
"Photos, clockwise from top: NYC SUBWAY RESOURCES"
Dave, NYCSR mentioned (OK in fine print) in a nationally known, well respected magazine - can't get much better publicity that that.
Maybe you should start charging admission (or do something before they really start stealing the pictures).
I saw that picture, too. But I am disappointed that the route sign was changed.
Trevor's original picture shows the route number is "6"; however, Newsweek changed it to "7".
Chaohwa
Did it have the URL or just the "name"?
Anyway it wasn't stolen, they paid Trevor for his photo. However they should have given him the credit line, not me/this site...
It just has the name as I had typed in my posting. Nothing else.
I know they paid him for the photo. I am concerned that others my surf around, come in and start copying and publishing photos from NYCSR w/o permission.
Speaking of Trevor being paid for the photo - technically doesn't that mean that Newsweek owns the rights to it? If that is the case shouldn't you remove it from the site or risk copyright problems?
> technically doesn't that mean that Newsweek owns the rights to it?
> If that is the case shouldn't you remove it from the site or risk
> copyright problems?
Well of course this depends on the "deal" but no, getting paid for the use of something does not automatically negate your rights. For instance if Trevor was asked for the exclusive use of the photo in return for the payment, then sure, he sold his right (and mine) to use it elsewhere. I sold two photos to the New York Times once, that they found on this web site, and they did not require or even ask for exclusivity.
No, Newsweek did not expect the removal of the photo from the site. I was more or less paid for "my services" over purchasing the photo.
Kinda like a Bill!
I didn't make a big stink about the credit because Newsweek was rushing on a deadline and couldn't get my name at the time. Since it's my very first publishing in a magazine, I'm pretty satisfied.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Let me know when you get the check! :-)
-Dave
"You Go Girl!" :-)
Seriously, big time kudos and congrats to you! I'm quite sure that in the not too distant future, when we're purchasing our subway and bus calendars, more than a few of the photos we'll see will have the name Trevor Logan attached to them.
Is it on the web too?
I gave the picture to Dave, so the photo is here in the R-142 Section (R142-6340b.jpg). I don't know if its on Newsweek's Site, you can check the site! www.newsweek.com
Regards,
Trevor Logan
the photo is here in the R-142 Section (R142-6340b.jpg).
Here it is.
Are the transverse cabs always illuminated like that even though they can't be occupied?
Usually they are lit up like that on the end car. The Front car is always dark.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
It would make good sense for it to be dark when the cab is used for train control.
I wonder if the lighting automatically comes on when the controls are shut down.
WMATA is like that too, although I can't figure out how they control it. I think once its the operating position, they go out.
They still have the 11/14 issue up.
Its random where you can get the issue, some places have the 14th, some have the 19th, I got a copy of the 19th from a Bodega in the Bronx.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
I can't find it on the newsweek site.
Whatever gets built, after much discussion and wrangling, will be very different from the 1968 design for the WTC: Huge plaza, two towers, cluster of smaller buildings, all obliterating the street pattern and having little or no relation to what surrounded it.
Many people have said that some of the pre-existing street pattern should be restored. Greenwich Street, which had been ended at Barclay Street to assemble the site for 7 WTC, could be reconnected to its continuation south of Liberty.
Similarly, Cortlandt and Fulton could continue through the site as they did (probably not Dey, though). They don't connect to anything at the WFC on the other side of West Street, so they might be pedestrian-only -- continuing view corridors if not automotive streets.
So my transit question: IF we assume PA moves ultimate PATH terminal to a lengthened version of the old Hudson Terminal site ... what other transit changes (PRACTICAL ones, please!) could be made as the site is rethought?
My personal bias is toward Lower Manhattan commuter rail. LIRR from Atlantic Avenue to a real train station on the site, in the basement areas that shouldn't be devoted to vehicles ... with designs that allow a future cross-Hudson commuter rail connection for NJ Transit.
Ideas? Again, keep 'em within some semblance of sensible urban planning and practicality ....
I hope that people stand for nothing less than the complete rebuilding of the towers with some sort of nicer plaze area benieth them (ie more green). After some temporary use the old H&M station becomes either a PATH musuem or some sort of underground WTC 9/11 musuem.
It doesn't matter what the "people" stand for. All that matters is what Larry Silverstein decides.
The Hudson Terminal is better located than the WTC PATH station. I see no reason the station shouldn't be moved back permanently. The WTC museum would make more sense at the WTC station, anyway.
The Hudson Terminal is better located than the WTC PATH station. I see no reason the station shouldn't be moved back permanently. The WTC museum would make more sense at the WTC station, anyway.
The Hudson Terminal location is somewhat farther for people working in the World Financial Center.
I suggested elsewhere that a station be added to one of the tubes at the WFC. Trains would only stop at the WFC in one direction; in effect, they'd loop from Exchange Place to WFC to HT back to Exchange Place (and on to Newark). Those going from HT to WFC would have to go to Exchange Place and backtrack, but how many people would pay $1.50 to go from HT to WFC via PATH?
I suggested elsewhere that a station be added to one of the tubes at the WFC
I don't know if that is practical. The WFC was in the Hudson River, when the tubes were built. They would be climbing toward the H&M station, where they cross the WFC. A level track is almost always preferred in a station for a variety of reasons. If they were to level the grade for the 500' (10 car) WFC station, then there a good chance they would not be able to make it up to the level of the old H&M station.
So you keep it level for the last 9 cars and don't open the first. BTW, when are they planning to start running 10 car trains? They're only 7 or 8 cars now.
After they solve this little problem, they can start on the 1st Ave station in the Steinway tunnel.
"The Hudson Terminal location is somewhat farther for people working in the World Financial Center"
So... Install some (fast) moving sidewalks.
Elias
First, he dosen't own the land, he's just leasing it. Second, the PA (or whatever governmental entitity) could just hand his money back (less insurance payments) and then do whatever they want with the site.
First, [Silverstein> dosen't own the land, he's just leasing it. Second, the PA (or whatever governmental entitity) could just hand his money back (less insurance payments) and then do whatever they want with the site.
Technically true, but more to the point, if either the PA or Silverstein just announced point-blank a design and started to build, the public outcry would be heard in Mazar i Sharif.
As Oklahoma City showed, sites of this nature have enormous emotional impact -- on relatives of the dead and injured, on survivors, and on those of us who live in the affected city. Memorials take time to work through so all parties buy into them.
Add to that the opportunity to rethink transporation -- a once-every-50-years chance -- and the fact that the WTC was lousy urban design, and whatever gets built there will be QUITE different. Thought needs to be put into it.
It may or may not be technically true that the PA can cancel the Lease. It depends on the terms of the lease, which none of us have read.
As for letting everyone and his cousin in on the design process, I expect that the PA and its tenant will go as far in that direction as they have to to avoid a repetition of the head butting that happened last time that piece of land was built on. From what I've read, the City interfered with the project last time, although it had no authority to do so, until the PA gave in on some of the City's demands.
I don't see how the WTC was lousy urban design.
Anyway, if they are not going to build something cool there, they might as well build a park. Does NYC need more 50 story buildings? Not really. Is there anything special about a 50 story building. Not in the least. They should rebuild the WTC tower(s) in almost the same way. Those towers were super redundant. A more "modern" (aka cheap) structure would have probably collapsed right after impact. If you're not going to restore the skyline, just don't bother. The site does need something special. A park is special, two bigass towers are more special. Cookie cutter office towers are NOT special in the slightest.
I am still advocating the World Trade Finger design.
I don't see how the WTC was lousy urban design.
It had zero relationship to anything at all around it. The plaza was huge, cold, windswept and no one wanted to spend any time in it. The complex sat on a "superblock" that eradicated any trace of the street grid that existed. The mall below it was grim, badly lit, and nowhere near as pleasant as your average suburban mall. The place was confusing in the extreme to navigate. The walls on the three sides not facing Church Street were either blank and unfriendly or merely loading docks, meaning that people avoided those sidewalks. It was, in short, the worst of modern design that obliterated what was there, turned its back on the surroundings and attempted to pretend it was not of the city it lived in.
Want me to go on?
hey..to jersey mike...me too :)
the WTC kicked ass, only if it'd kicked Osama's ass before...
It was the type of design Robert Moses believed in: Eradicate several blocks of the city, and insert something which is striking but disruptive of the way the city works. Despite its size, the Empire State Building stands on a single city block. Only the contents of that block were destroyed to allow its construction - the street pattern was left intact. The WTC changed traffic and pedestrian flows over a wide area, and also affected the flow of air through the area.
Despite its size, the Empire State Building stands on a single city block. Only the contents of that block were destroyed to allow its construction - the street pattern was left intact.
And not even the entire block -- just the eastern end, where the old Waldorf Astoria Hotel stood. Your point is well taken. The superblock apartment towers on the UWS in the high 60s are another example of anti-contextural design.
People shoudln't be driving their cars downtown anyway. The superblock concept creates room for pedestrians, public art, fountains, plants and food vendors. When you give over most of the free spece car habitat those mentioned above often have to fight for space.
No, Mike, the dense network of narrow streets in lower Manhattan is awful for drivers and wonderful for pedestrians. The World Trade Center just got in the way. My last time in the WTC (to use the men's room down in the PATH station), I exited through the IND station so I could avoid the direct street exit.
"The superblock concept creates room for pedestrians, public art, fountains, plants and food vendors. When you give over most of the free spece car habitat those mentioned above often have to fight for space."
Yes, but only when done correctly. For all the virtues you listed, the demapped streets should not be restored at the Trade Center Site. Yet for whatever public plaza is constructed, it must be more personable. Whenever people and cars compte for space, people lose.
MATT-2AV
Yes, but only when done correctly. For all the virtues you listed, the demapped streets should not be restored at the Trade Center Site. Yet for whatever public plaza is constructed, it must be more personable. Whenever people and cars compte for space, people lose.
Restoring the street PLAN is not the same as putting back cars. Streets are how people orient themselves and get around. I'd suggest that at least some of the street corridors -- Greenwich running N/S, and Fulton and Cortlandt running E/W -- be remapped, but without auto access (perhaps emergency vehicle access only). Use them for pedestrians ... open up the view corridors ... make the site easier to navigate by tying it BACK into the surrounding neighborhood.
What neighborhood? That is the skyscraper district. Whatever needs to be done new buildings should get priority. An archway system would probably work best. Like with Phidelphia City Hall.
The concept of the WTC (I worked at the Port Authority at the time) was "a rennaisance Italian plaza." What was missing was any human scale.
No way would it be done now. However, we can't go back to the original either. Best idea would be to build a series of blocks, with restricted or no vehicle access during daytime hours.
No way would it be done now. However, we can't go back to the original either. Best idea would be to build a series of blocks, with restricted or no vehicle access during daytime hours.
With the great advantage of a single basement underneath, which sounds like it survived 9/11 with repairable damage. And all the transit -- existing, moved and new -- contained therein.
The complex sat on a "superblock" that eradicated any trace of the street grid that existed.
So what. NYC needs less car habitat anyway.
The plaza was huge, cold, windswept and no one wanted to spend any time in it.
I'll give you that the plaze could use some more greenery and more seating, but on a nice summer day is was the perfect place to eat Khar K'lash.
The mall below it was grim, badly lit, and nowhere near as pleasant as your average suburban mall.
I loved the WTC mall. It was just as good as any Suburban mall, only it didn't take up acres of former open space.
The place was confusing in the extreme to navigate.
Every time I went there is was like an adventure with new passageways and esclators to discover.
The walls on the three sides not facing Church Street were either blank and unfriendly or merely loading docks, meaning that people avoided those sidewalks.
That is why the WTC had a large subterranian pedestrian concourse.
was, in short, the worst of modern design that obliterated what was there.
Hudson Terminal and a few electronics shops really weren't anything to be proud of.
turned its back on the surroundings and attempted to pretend it was not of the city it lived in.
The WTC was built in 70's New York. The city it lived in was a crime ridden cess pool/slum. The WTC raised the bar abd stood up (litterally) as an example.
Please go on, all of your arguements have so far fallen flat.
I loved the majesty of the Twin Towers from afar, and I think people didn't realize how much symbolic value they had til they were gone.
But I never went there, and would make almost any excuse not to have to go into that most anti-urban of spaces.
So what. NYC needs less car habitat anyway.
True, but you don't need to obliterate the street plan to get cars out. Streets are the natural way people use to navigate.
Hudson Terminal and a few electronics shops really weren't anything to be proud of.
Funny, that's what people said of SoHo and Tribeca. Hudson Terminal looked like a decent pair of buildings to me (early not-quite-twin towers) and you don't need to obliterate a neighborhood to make it better.
The WTC was built in 70's New York. The city it lived in was a crime ridden cess pool/slum.
Very true, and good point. But we now know that you make cities better by reducing crime and sprucing them up, making them places that people WANT to be in, rather than erasing large hunks of them. Using your reasoning, you end up with Atlanta -- a city with a long history that has exactly FOUR pre-1900 buildings left -- and a downtown that no one can stand walking in 'cause it's all Portman interior galleria buildings. Yuck.
To me, the design of the WTC was antithetical to what makes NYC special: its street life, grid plan, and urbanity.
But (chuckle) perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.
The WTC was designed in the mid-1960s New York, when the crime rate was the same as it is today (though going up instead of down, so the perception was different). Since my father worked in the area at the time, I got to see lots of buildings going down and going up, and the IMHO, the WTC layout actually got better in its final years than what was on site for the first 15 years or so.
No plans other than for vehicular parking was ever made for the West Street side of the site, even though the builders knew the landfill from the pit was being placed across the street for future construction. The mall itself was never completed until the late 1980s, and for the longest time, there was no connection between the plaza above and the mall below via any entrances such at was later created at Borders and a few other stores -- If you didn't know there was shopping below the plaza, you were never going to find it by going onto the plaza.
Vescey Street also was a mess for years, until they finally got both directions of traffic lanes open, but the height of the plaza there made the street itself very pedestrian unfriendly, despite the added width. The problem wasn't as bad on the Liberty Street side of the complex.
And from a transit standpoint, of course, the WTC design was a joke. The Port Authority redid their own area for PATH, of course, which was fairly well intergrated into the mall area, but there was no communication whatsoever between the PA and the TA/MTA about the other stations, which bnth sides share a certain responsibility for.
The IND link did work out fairly well - just redo the hole in the end wall of the Chambers/Hudson Terminal station going to the old Hudson Tubes and add a passageway a quarter block west to the main mall section. But final completion of the underpass for the BMT Cortdlant Street uptown station took forever, and don't even get me started on the IRT Cortlandt stop -- how can you build a freakin' mall and put 'Exit Only' doors inside the place, so that nobody has quick access to the trains, while putting the main entrance and exit into the Great Wall of China over on Vescey St. and West Broadway?
Because of the desire for some sort of memorial park and/or plaza, I doubt any of the original street configuration will ever return there. I just hope whatever is built on the site is done with as much attention paid to both the ground level and underground interaction of people and transit lines as they designers devote to the look of the buildings that finally arise from the rubble.
Nice analysis, thanks. Glad to have the details of the transit mess underneath and adjacent -- I get the sense that the PA seems to want to do things differently this time.
Because of the desire for some sort of memorial park and/or plaza, I doubt any of the original street configuration will ever return there.
Hear, hear!
I just hope whatever is built on the site is done with as much attention paid to both the ground level and underground interaction of people and transit lines as they designers devote to the look of the buildings that finally arise from the rubble.
Again, though, returning street routings (minus cars) isn't necessarily in conflict with a memorial park and/or plaza. People gotta walk from top to bottom, side to side. If people can walk into the site along continuations of existing streets -- they WILL.
WHOOPS ... got my quotes and responses wrong. It's SUPPOSED to read:
Because of the desire for some sort of memorial park and/or plaza, I doubt any of the original street configuration will ever return there.
Again, though, returning street routings (minus cars) isn't necessarily in conflict with a memorial park and/or plaza. People gotta walk from top to bottom, side to side. If people can walk into the site along continuations of existing streets -- they WILL.
I just hope whatever is built on the site is done with as much attention paid to both the ground level and underground interaction of people and transit lines as they designers devote to the look of the buildings that finally arise from the rubble.
Hear, hear!
I think entrances to the site wherever possible from where the streets used to be makes sense, even if any new underground mall has to be lowered to two levels below ground at Church St. to do so -- the "Great Wall of Vescey Street" is there because the east-west streets drop off about one level between Church and West streets going towards the Hudson (and especially after West Brodway), so to keep the mall and WTC plaza areas at the same level, the plaza had to rise further and further away from the street, while the far west end of the WTC mall was acutally at street level, though the east end was one level underground.
Lowering the mall would allow for the plaza area to slope down towards West Street in the same way as the neighboring street grid does, which would permit direct access without any stairs to climb from the intersecting north-south streets, West B'way, Greenwhich and Washington, and would make the area a far friendlier place.
I think to do that, though, the IRT 1/9 tracks would have to be dropped about another 10 feet below ground as they travel through the site, so that the mall level could still pass over the IRT station (though to my eyes, a subway stop in the middle of a mall would be pretty damn cool). Considering the work that has to be done to rebuild that tunnel section and the timespan they're talking about, if the tunnel's going to be closed for four years or so they may have the reconstruction plans in place by the time the work starts, and the new, deeper Cortdlant St. station could be part of the project.
I'm trying to remember. St. Nick's Greek Orthodox Church was surrounded by a parking lot, wasn't it? This was on West, just south of Liberty St. It's where that ugly oversized pedestrian overpass was located.
This would seem a logical spot for the memorial. It would incorporate a new church, with something up on the roof, linked with a new pedestrian overpass down to the street and over West St. I'm thinking of something like the church at Citicorp (St. Peter's Lutheran?), with an under-the-street passage into the WTC as well.
... incorporate a new church, with something up on the roof, linked with a new pedestrian overpass down to the street and over West St. I'm thinking of something like the church at Citicorp (St. Peter's Lutheran?), with an under-the-street passage into the WTC as well.
One of the first redesign suggestions to arise after 9/11 was to sink West Street below grade so that the WFC and former WTC sites could be connected at ground level. This would avoid having to replace a whole series of bridges, not to mention make it much nicer for hordes of pedestrians.
This also provides further impetus for whatever's built on top to have its grade level follow the grade of the surrounding site, getting rid of what J. Lee called "the great wall" on the three non-Church Street sides.
I'm amused, BTW, that in construction photos of the WTC, you see the intact elevated West Side Highway. If memory serves, the semi didn't fall through til about 1973, after which it was closed ... and then demolished many years later.
One of the first redesign suggestions to arise after 9/11 was to sink West Street below grade so that the WFC and former WTC sites could be connected at ground level. This would avoid having to replace a whole series of bridges, not to mention make it much nicer for hordes of pedestrians.
Indeed. And if they did do this, this would be the site for a memorial plaza.
And if they do do it, then I think we'd all have fits unless they provided for a subway extension on West.
I think that the big problem is that NYC blocks are too small. In philly they are 1/10th of a mile instead of 1/20th and we have never really had a need for really big super blocks.
The WTC was built in 70's New York. The city it lived in was a crime ridden cess pool/slum. The WTC raised the bar abd stood up (litterally) as an example.
Actually, the WTC plans were finalized in the late 1960's, before crime and urban decay had gotten out of hand. It is more or less happenstance that the city indeed had deteriorated by the time the towers were finished.
And let's not forget the fact that the WTC was far from an economic success for basically its first two decades.
I agree with JV. Would be nice if they had provisions for both PATH and commuter rail tunnels, eastbound, westbound, and northbound. But you said "practical".
Design it right, with usability in mind. Ideally lay it out so that tourists can always find their way without having to ask, even if they're jetlagged.
Maybe have the tower elevators go directly into the subway/PATH station! Make the whole building "inside the turnstile".
The security people will plotz if you do that.
Build a school or Hospitol there.How about a University.
There are two brief subway scenes in this flick, both of which were done in studio mockups. In the first scene you're looking from the outside into the car, and the window arrangement is correct for a Redbird. However, the straps are nothing like the ones on the real Redbirds, plus the car is heavily graffitied. Hel-LO!! The NYC subway has been graffiti-free for more than a decade. The producers didn't have a clue. Or perhaps it's done due to public perception.
The seats in the second scene were longitudinal all right, but had individual cushions. Oh, please!!
There are two brief subway scenes in this flick, both of which were done in studio mockups. In the first scene you're looking from the outside into the car, and the window arrangement is correct for a Redbird. However, the straps are nothing like the ones on the real Redbirds, plus the car is heavily graffitied. Hel-LO!! The NYC subway has been graffiti-free for more than a decade. The producers didn't have a clue. Or perhaps it's done due to public perception.
The seats in the second scene were longitudinal all right, but had individual cushions. Oh, please!!
Sounds like a submission for nitpickers.com!
Since there were so many responses to this thread below, I thought I'd start it again here.
My favorite line is the Brooklyn to Far Rockaway line because of number of mysteries and artifacts that appear on the run. I always find myself wondering about the following:
1) The LIRR-IRT track connection - did it ever exist or not? Is there anything in existence at the station that can definitely answer this question?
2) What did Flatbush Avenue terminal look like when it first opened?
3) What is that mystery southern turnoff at the eastern end of the tunnel, near the elevated Nostrand Avenue station? There's now a staircase in the middle of it. Why was it built?
4) Why was the elevated portion of the line over Atlantic Avenue built without guardrails on the sides of the tracks? Makes for a very interesting run.
5) Observe the eastern end of the elevated portion, near ENY station; some of the original iron railing still exists!
6) The ENY-Jamaica run is exhilirating!
7) The ghost station at Woodhaven is haunting - the station is still in amazingly good condition! It was only open for 34 years. The Woodhaven turnoff, abandoned since 1955, is interesting too.
8) Watching the AirTrain route progressing while waiting at Jamaica is always interesting.
8) Are there any traces of the Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue stations left anywhere between Jamaica and Valley Stream? I always look for them.
9) The express run from Jamaica to Valley Stream is very smooth and comfortable.
10) Looking for the Cedarhurst-Laurelton cutoff while approaching the Cedarhurst station.
In all, if you're a fan of history, its tough to beat this line.
8) Are there any traces of the Cedar Manor and Higbie Avenue stations left anywhere between Jamaica and Valley Stream? I always look for them.
Those two stations were at grade and were abandoned when the line was elevated in that area in 1959 to eliminate all the grade crossings.
3) What is that mystery southern turnoff at the eastern end of the tunnel, near the elevated Nostrand Avenue station? There's now a staircase in the middle of it. Why was it built?
For a possible connection with the Brighton (Franklin Shuttle) line. There was a prior connection 1878-1883 at that point when both lines were at street level.
1) I think the IRT/LIRR connection did exist at one time at Atlantic/Flatbush. However I don't think it existed for too long. Belmont died in 1924 so that's probably when the connection was severed.
2) Flatbush Terminal looked impressive in its day. I saw the picture years ago. And it's been only the last few years the terminal was torn down!
3) I thought I saw something there years ago. I thought I was getting it confused with the IRT portal between Utica and Sutter/Rutland. I'd think it was the original turnoff for the connection with the BRT line to Brighton Beach (Now the Franklin Shuttle) But that site was further west of the portal. My guess would be it was (is) a spur to the armery over there.
4) Maybe to discourage people from walking along it.
5) I remember onee time I was walking around the ENY station. I took a look at the catwalk at the end of the station. I probably could have walked all the way to Woodhaven or to Nostrand. Can't do that now.
6) I agree it's worth the $3 for the ride!
7) Woodhaven is difficult to see from a passing train. It's totally dark and the train lights only shows a space. Just that the station is there. If it wasn't for the school bus company there now, you could probably explore the turnoff. Not too long ago one could go up to the Upper platform and look out all that was there. But the RR fixed the fence.
8) I've yet to see the Airtrain at Jamaica. I've seen the station go up at Howard Beach. When it's finished, it might be good for a fantrip.
8) (Part 2?) I think I saw only one of them. I don't know which. The tracks seperate for a short distance for what I'd think was an island platform.
9) Agreed!
10) I think the cutoff is pretty much hidden. You can imagine the cutoff beginning heading for Valley Stream and there is a clearing near Cedarhurst where it connect to the Far Rockaway line. You could see the right-of-way now and maybe find some piece of rail here and there. But I don't think you'll find much more than that.
The Atlantic Branch is part of the original RR now known as the LIRR. My guess is when the line was first opened in 1834 the line was surface as it approached Flatbush. Because it went all the was to Atlanic Ave by NY Bay and that includes the tunnel that seems to be a part of Brooklyn history.
In the book "Change at Ozone Park" there is a picture of a house right where the Cederhurst cutoff was near the Cederhurst Station. The author says you'd never know there was a railroad there.
I beieve it. I saw the book myself. I think the only way to find the cut-off these days would be to walk the old right-of-way. I don't think the land has been filled in or cut up or otherwise disturbed. You could probably trace it pretty well.
The following maps show my guess of the old ROW (red line). However, several people have told me that they think I may be off a few blocks in some places. The southern portion might have been located more to the west than shown on the maps.
>> 1) The LIRR-IRT track connection - did it ever exist or not? Is there anything in existence at the station that can definitely answer this question? <<
Up until very recently, the trackway was plainly visible. When last I was there, a plywood wall had gone up around it. You can still see a portion of the trackway out the side window of uptown 4 & 5 trains, I believe.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
1) The 'Belmont Spur' was/is still there (although now used by the construction contractors as a 'tool shed'). The debate is whether or not it was used on a regular basis by Augie to shuttle his friends back and forth between his hotel and the racetrack. Certainly it never saw revenue service.
2) Not much different on the IRT side, but there was a second (upper level) for LIRR freight that was situated closer to Fort Greene Place (where that HUGE vacant plot of land is over by Atlantic Center Mall).
3) A planned connection to the Brighton Line (Franklin Shuttle) was started during the period of the Brooklyn Grade Crossing Elimination project, circa 1907-09. It was to replace a previous at-grade connection that was called 'Bedford Terminal' (late 1880's). It was a transfer point at the intersection of Atlantic & Franklin Avenues (the location is still there today. It's a vacant plot of land that was last used by the Franklin Shuttle re-build contractor as a staging area -- before then it was a car dealership site).
4) Because the catwalks are on the inside of the structure between the two tracks.
Thanks for your response.
1) There's a lot of disagreement about whether this spur was actually built for August Belmont or not. Joe Brennan, whom I consider the most authoritative person on this subject, has stated time and again that Belmont never used it and tracks were never laid. In fact, I believe I once had a conversation with him, during which he told me that the "Belmont Spur" was actually built by the LIRR to comply with a City requirement that the LIRR run trains all the way to Fulton Street in exchange for getting the Bklyn underground terminal. The northbound Fulton Street trains would have used this spur. Too bad that service never materialized - I could have used it every day instead of changing for IRT service!
2) Interesting.
3) Interesting.
4) I realize that. But why was it built this way? Why were the catwalks placed in the middle?
We visited Atlantic Ave. last month. It appears the Belmont spur is now being walled off by the subway platform.
I know, I use that station daily. Funny thing is that since the start of that project, the workers have occasionally left the wooden doors open so you can actually enter the closed off part of the platform. Looks like the Belmont trackway has been filled in with concrete, but the original 1908 wall sconces are still there!
Are these tracks still active? I've never seen any trains ever on them. If they are, wouldn't they be an ideal lay-up area for some Z trains during the midday hours, instead of having to go to/from ENY all the time? And if they aren't, why did the city spend all that time and money to replace the switching complex north of Chambers St 7 years ago? I rode a Q train and you can clearly see the tracks dead end shortly before the Bway tracks cross over from their old "north" side alignment to the current "south" side alignment.
Normally, those tracks are used for work trains and snowbird layups.
Wouldn't it make some sense to store some Z trains on these tracks so they can quickly be put into service in the afternoon rush, rather than running them empty to ENY every day after the AM rush is over?
Actually the Z's remain in passenger service to Eastern Pkwy. where they "drop out" into the Yard. On the PM rush, they start in southbound passenger service at either Eastern Pkwy. or Chauncey St. depending on where they come out of the Yard.
As far as storing them at Chambers St., it would cost the TA extra $$$ in labor costs since the PM crews all begin their tour in the Yard. To have them sign on at Essex St. would mean increased deadhead time plus travel time to reach the put-in in which currently there is none since the train is right where they sign on.
I see. Thanks for the info. Now it makes sense.
From an article in today's Times describing different generations' reactions to September 11:
Looking our her window in Chinatown, which once framed a view of the World Trade Center, Ms. Chan inhales smoke. The neighborhood is still a tangle of police checkpoints and closed subway stations.
Closed stations in Chinatown? That's news to me!
Did the Times bother to check the posterboards about the Manny B. flip? Judging from that sentence, they haven't. Because the J/M/Z, 6, N/R, 1/2, and A/C/E all still stop at Canal. At worst, it's just Grand St., and there's TWO shuttles servicing it.
2 shuttles going to Grand St.? Isn't there just 1 shuttle from Bway/Lafayette to Grand?
I guess he was counting the shuttle bus to Canal Street.
I thought both shuttle buses stopped running on 9/11 and haven't returned (yet?).
The MTA website says the Grand St. shuttle bus is not running.
Nobody took that shuttle bus. It was a waste of money.
Nobody took either shuttle bus. Well, I did -- once each, just to see what they were like. (Canal to Grand to DeKalb.) Of the three or so passengers on the Canal-Grand bus, one was on his return trip after having accidentally boarded the wrong bus at Grand. The Grand-DeKalb bus took over 30 minutes to arrive and then took over 20 minutes to get to DeKalb (most of that just getting through the legendary Chinatown traffic to the Manhattan Bridge). It would have obviously been much, much faster to walk to Canal (or ride the other shuttle bus or take the J train) and hop a Q over the bridge. The poor guy who had taken the wrong bus wasn't pleased when I informed him that he would have saved over an hour had he gotten off at Canal and taken the Q instead.
Might as well take down the bus stop (no standing) sign on Chrystie. It was being univerally ignored anyway.
The only closed stations are south of Chambers St. Has Chinatown grown so large that City Hall is now in the middle of this neighborhood?
The new subtalk logo is very nice. Kudos to whoever actually took the photo also, that's some nice work.
That was my work both photo and logo creation. Thank You!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Yes Trevor, very nice !
Mr rt__:^)
Which do T/O's prefer? Also, in your opinion, which train is your most favorite t operate?
B63Mike
I would think that T/O's prefer the narrow cabs during the winter since the bulkhead doors on 44/46/68 equipment tend to be very drafty.
My personal favorite train to operate is the 38. Stops on a dime and makes change. I haven't met a T/O yet that hates the 38's.
I like the R32 my self. They also stop on a dime and make change. I just don't like the seat in them becouse they don't have a foot rest and they are very high. The train I dislike are the R68a's there brakes leave leave someone looking for a refound. But for when I understand the TA after 10years are removing the E-Cam for them and the R62a's. The TA is also setting the engin brake to turn off at a slower speed, like 3MPH. I been on a few that felt alot better then they use to be.
Robert
"But for when I understand the TA after 10years are removing the E-Cam for them and the R62a's."
Not sure what's meant by that. The R-62A, R-68, and R-68A fleets just got or are just now getting E-Cam.
David
Wish I had had a crack at a 38 ... back in 1970, they were seen only over on the E and F ... did a couple of 32's but it was few and far between. They were OK though I always liked the feel of the R1/9's better.
Pre-GOH I thought the R46 had the most comfortable cab for a motorman. Adjustable seat, console that your legs fit under without being a contortionist, one hand sliding master controller/brake. The GOH 46 now has a panel on the right half of the console that keeps a tall person like me from getting both legs comfortable and the seat is not height adjustable so I end up riding side saddled. Great way to hurt your back. Also the master controller is awkward. Now that I work on the 7 line I would have to say that I prefer the R36 or any equipment that I can stand up and operate. Different strokes for different folks.
The GOH R46 seats used to be height adjustible, probably half still are. But you're right about that panel by your right knee, it can be a pain sometimes.
5 days on the F for one pick landed me at the chiroproactor and forced me to pick a line without 46s. Haven't been back to 179 since.
I spent about an hour running the 4 line in the simulator cab. It was a replica of a R62 cab, it was pretty comfortable! A footrest was on the chair. I could deal with a narrow cab, but putting my left foot out of the door frame was quite comfy! (Yes I did take a look at the line where the door would close, and everything could fit pretty easily)
Well my problem at 6'8" on 6688 is I bang my head into the door stop (door stop when the door opens inward). I could just rest my head there....
Part of school car in B division at my time was also being familiarized with the early redbirds. First thing that impressed me about the IRT cars was that I needed a shoehorn to get into the damned cab. Them puppies is pretty tight for space. :)
I prefer to think of them as "cozy".
Yeah, I gues I was a bit fussy. Them birdies had nowhere to plug in a hotplate. :)
No, but you can nestle a coffee cup on the brake valve right under the ledge to the vision glass snugly without spilling a drop. Try that on the R32. I think not!
Heh. Yeah, the 32's weren't exactly equipped with cupholders. Since you could drop out the reverser to coast though on the old R1/9's, you could put your cup down on the floor next to the heater to keep it warm and actually be able to reach down without dumping. :)
On the other hand, you could lay out your entire lunch on top of the R44-46 & on the R42, too. Not enough room on the slant 40 between the master controller & the vision glass. A little ingenuity goes a long way.
Heh. Funny you should mention the 42's and up - in my day, those were ONLY for those with seniority - got training on them of course but never set foot in one except as a conductor. The new guys at the time were issued 32's mostly while I opted for the R1/9's and they were glad to give me the keys to those on the road ... what struck me about the 32 cab was that it was JUST like the boids, only a few inches bigger. But I always felt a lot more comfortable in the 9's when operating.
The "one handle" thing was spooky. Unnatural. Just plain not right. Scared the pants off me personally. I see over the years though that aside from I *think* the 68's, two fisted operation is an anathema to the TA these days ...
Operating an R46 today is like driving a golf cart. The braking on the R44 is trickier but by the 2nd or 3rd station stop you should get the feel of your consist. However, I am much more comfortable with my brake handle. I know guys on the F who would freak out if an R32 showed up on the line Heck, some probably couldn't even find their brake handles. I agree with you Selkirk, operating with one hand just is not natural. Easier, but not natural.
Don't railroads like LIRR use only one control? I don't think the M-1's have a brake handle. For subways the one fist operation is not practical, the seperate brake handle gives the T/O more control in the more frequent stops and curves that are on subways.
When the R44 and 46 were designed I guess at that time the TA wanted the subways to have more of a railroad feel to them, and weren't the 46's designed with the 2nd ave subway and an advanced signal system in mind?
The M-2's sure have a brake handle.
They do? Where is it?
See for yourself at http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/M2-Cab.jpg
Well, that URL was bad but eventually I figured out what you meant.
So, where's the brake handle? The original poster was inquiring
about single vs 2 handle operation. That's not a brake handle,
that's the master power & braking controller.
Ya know? It's strange ... when I got a couple of 32 runs having been used to the 9's, I found them to be VERY tricky. I found more often than not that I was speeding in them. Very hard to get a feel for the right speed in them compared to the 9's and even more so with the braking - the 9's didn't have dynamics so the braking profile was rather steep compared to the 32's but "slower" ... first time out on the road on my own, my conductor was busting my chops because I'd end up short and I'd get over the PA "a little more, little more ... little more ... OK." After hanging my head in shame, was GLAD to get back to the older cars on the next run. No PA for one. :)
The older cars would stop on a dime as long as you remembered to ease off once they grabbed ...
Sounds as if AMUE vs SMEE is kind of like a stickshift vs an automatic.
From an operating standpoint, it was remarkably similar between the two ... only difference was that you'd apply a bit earlier on the older cars if you wanted to stop. And you learned to "feather" the brakes unlike the way it's done today which is pretty much pull back the handle and yawn. :)
This brings me to a question about one/two handle operation....
Which cars in NYC subways STILL have the separate brake/controllers?
Were any of the older two-handed cars converted to one-hand operation?
Thanks....
Only the R44/R46 have "one handed" controlers in revenue service in the subway. All others need a brake handle that is carried by the T/O.
Heck the 44/46 drivers have it easy, no need to carry heavy radio or brake handle (they should have their brake handle with them though).
Also the R142's and R143's are one handed.
Robert
Interesting note. Sometime around 1984 an R42 (maybe two trains) was converted from the typical ME43 brake valve to a Westcode brake valve/ master controller, similar to the GOH 44, as a test train. It was restored to it's original specifications about a year later. Does anybody else remember this?
It's not natural because you were trained otherwise.
The use of two brake handles makes no sense. Train control consists entirely of controlling the train's velocity, there's no reason that two hands have to be used for that one function. In a car, there are two pedals for that same function, but who the hell uses both feet for that?
In a car, there are two pedals for that same function, but who ... uses both feet for that?
A lot of folks. When my younger daughter was in driver's ed that is how she was taught (I've since broken her of the habit) and my mother drives that way. It's been a few years now (mid-'90s) but Car and Driver, in an essay mumbling about the decline of stick shifts and "sporty" driving in general, commented on a survey showing that nearly 20% of male drivers and over 60% of female drivers use their left foot on the brake when driving a car with an automatic transmission. (I'm running on memory here, so my percentages may not be 100% accurate, but they're close.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Shows you don't know all that much about operating a train. No offsense, guy but the way it REALLY works is you take power. You accelerate up to where you need to be and in reality, you spend a WHOLE lot more time in coast than you do in power under most circumstances. Having power on one hand and your brake on another allows you a better degree of control.
One of the things that always scared the crap out of me personally about the concept is coast on a "joystick" is near the center (and I've seen some offset) so you end up yanking back to coast and might end up in application to a greater or lesser degree before you realize where you are. I realize that there is a notch for "power off" before going into the braking side of the handle, but it results in some fumbling and less positive "I know where I'm set" ... to my own mind, it requires more concentration and "checking yourself" than separate controls.
Give me two-fisted ANY day. And on "real" locomotives, you have 3 or 4 handles to deal with since dynamic is usually separate from air for braking. Maybe it's just a preference, but I'd be willing to bet those who run the one-handled jobbies would prefer having two.
Shows you don't know all that much about operating a train. No offsense, guy but the way it REALLY works is you take power. You accelerate up to where you need to be and in reality, you spend a WHOLE lot more time in coast than you do in power under most circumstances
The operation of a train involves the control of velocity, what you describe is just a flaw in the mechanism which makes it overly complicated. Just like a stickshift, it has nothing to do with the basic control of the vehicle, but it was once neccessary.
Glad you didn't take my comment personally and yes, I agree with your observation in the most general sense. But bear in mind that as simplistic as the ultimate requirements may be, you do have a carbon based lifeform at the controls. As a result, the design of the lifeform interface needs to accomodate the carbon unit as best as possible for optimum quality of performance and flexibility.
Some day, robots will be opening up on the wrong side too. For now, us flawed mammals have to do as the brains behind da box. Two fisted is saner. It REALLY is ...
>>> For now, us flawed mammals have to do as the brains behind da box. Two fisted is saner. It REALLY is ... <<<
Kevin;
You are sounding like some of my father's contemporaries (he was a truck driver) who believed the only way to have control of a big rig was to double clutch through 15 gears and be able to adjust application of the trailer brakes independently from the tractor.
I rather suspect new T/Os will be completely comfortable with a single control, and at some time in the future, only a few will be able to handle a two fisted subway train smoothly.
Tom
You're probably right. Also, I don't operate any longer so whatever they do is just fine by me. Merely expressing a personal preference based on what I'm comfortable with.
Good point, Tom....
I've been driving transit buses for 28 years now -- and when I relate to the newer drivers that in the 1970's, we still had some buss with four-speed stick shifts and NO power steering, they give me funny looks.
Oh well, they were fun to drive, too. Funny thing is, I belong to a bus musem that does actually have operating fan trips now and then, and I'm the only one that can drive the two stick-shift buses when they are used between knowing how and being current on the license!
Two handles most certainly ARE better for train operation, especially on longer trains.
Sure, you don't step on both the brake and the gas at the same time in a car....but you don't have couplers or a whole string of cars that you're pulling either. And if you ARE pulling a heavy trailer that requires its own brakes you MUST apply the trailer brakes before the regular brakes....or else you jackknife.
There's the need with a train to stretch out the slack smoothly when braking, so there are times when the throttle must be opened to do so while the brakes are applied.
Operating a train and driving a car are two completely different things.
All of those things are similar to a manual transmission, they are only there because the machine is designed a certain way. Optimally, those considerations would be automatic.
After what I just posted and where you're taking it here, be advised that you'd best sleep with one eye open. The TWU will *find* you. :)
Before discussing this further, have you operated a subway train? If so, what sort of driving controls did it have? I'd just like to know if you've done it because the car analogy really doesn't work very well...
-Robert King
Here's an analogy that works a little bit better: rather than having separate pedals for throttle and braking, imagine an automobile with a single pedal (or handle) that controls speed. Presumably, the vehicle would determine the proper gearing, throttle, and braking to achieve and maintain the speed that the control is set to.
A lot of people - those that learned with two pedals underneath their foot - would have a big problem with that. And a lot of others - those that learn with a unified speed control - would become used to it and would have a big problem with two-pedal operation.
Mark
A pedal is different from a handle, you can't wrap your foot around something and move just as easily forward and backward.
Before discussing this further, have you operated a subway train?
The question is irrelevant. In my case, I have no personal preferences. It's only common sense that you only need one stick to translate into motion control. That is essentially what a train does.
Dual-fisted operation is not a function of convenience, it's because single handled controls were once much more difficult to manufacture.
I've driven both types of train. One handle is fine - it works satisfactorily enough, but having a second handle for braking is good because the single control is easier to manipulate and handles better giving far more precise control over braking.
-Robert King
How about the SEPTA M4s. Got to be like first class in there.
This morning, Lisa Baden said once that "Metro Red Line experiencing delays between Rockville and Glenmont." How it is possible for the trains to not be delayed between Shady Grove and Rockville is beyond me since that is only a one station segment but that is besides the point. When I got to my stop, the PIMS outside the faregates read:
DELAY-Red line to Glenmont. It then changed to say DELAY-Green line to Greenbelt. All of the displays were doing this except as trains got near stations. The PIMS said my train, which terminated at Grosvenor, was going to Shady Grove at every station. I think the train number started with a 1, which is typical of trains doing the whole route. It seemed some trains originating at Grosvenor were running to Glenmont and vice versa.
At one time, did the J or E run above ground east of Sutphin Blvd to Jamaica Center?
Michael
Neither one. What you are thinking of is the Jamaica El to 169th St/Jamaica Av (J line). It was dismantled "north" of 121 St in pieces before the Archer Av extension was opened.
The E was underground to 179th under Hillside Av.
I remember when the Archer Avenue line was opened on the J line, you could still see the abandoned station at Metropolitan Ave in the distance as you made the turn underground.
Yes, the el structure was still intact in October of 1988, then when I rode on a J out to Jamaica Center in 1990, it was being dismantled.
The razing of the old el resulted in the loss of a number of stations. IIRC they were Metropolitan Ave, Queens Blvd, Sutphin Blvd, 160th St and 168th St. I hope I didn't miss any, it's been many years.
I do remember that all of the stations except 168th St were side platform, and there was a really long third track from 160th all of the way out to where the 168th center platform started. This was used as layup track for rush hour trains.
You got it right. That's the way I remember that stretch, too.
I'm sure that it sounds trite, but, Those were the good old days!!!
You can say that again. When I rode on that line for the first time in 1968 (the same day we attended that recital at your alma mater), it got a little monotonous after a while with all those side platform stations. There was a train of BMT standards signed up as a Bwy Brklyn Lcl laid up on the center track at 160th St. Both trains I rode on were R-27/30s, still wearing olive drab.
Does anyone know what the plan was origionally when they built the Jamaica el, with all those side "local" stations and no express station in between? Was there ever a center track installed? And if there was, was it ever used in revenue service? It would have been one super express all the way from 168th Street to Cypress Hills (Crescent St).
As far as I know, the Jamaica el never had a center track on the section above Jamaica Avenue except for a few blocks east of 111th Street station and from 160th to just west of 168th Street station. The third track near 111th was a turnback for the Lexington Avenue el service until that line was abandoned in 1950. And on one occasion in the '60s, I saw a train of R16s - signed for 111th St. - turn back there. Both stretches of third track were used for layups at various times.
I imagine the line was built with space for an express track since that seemed to be the standard design for most Dual Contracts elevated structures in the teens. Columns were placed on the sidewalks near the curb rather than in the street, so most were wide enough for three tracks. The extension of the Fulton Street el on Liberty Avenue was of the same construction, but with a third track all the way from east of Grant Avenue to just west of Lefferts Boulevard station.
It also suprises me that they never rebuilt the section from Alabama Ave to before Cypress Hills. On another post we were talking about the "less strong" old elevated lines. If this is the oldest stretch of el still in service, why is it "holding-up" under heavy cars?
The ''Leggs'' were replaced[support collums from street to girders]to strenghten the structure. Stations were refurbished also....
For one thing, the stations had to be stretched to handle longer trains. El trains were the length of about 5 IRT cars.
Yes,that was Dual Contract construction[1916-19??].The Broadway line was built to Jamaica during this time and the rest of the EL was rebuilt to handle steel cars except the section between Alabama avenue and Cypress Hills.Also most of the Fulton st EL[ABOVE Frankin ave]Myrtle ave above LEWIS AVE to Metropolitan aves and the IRT LINES in Manhattan.
I didn't realize they rebuilt the els in Manhattan to handle subway standards.
I don't think the Manhattam Els were upgraded to subway car standards- the Thrid Avenue El (in Manhattan) ran wooden cars right up to 5/12/55. The Third Aveneu Line, and I THINK the Second and Ninth Ave lines had express tracks added, but still not made strong enough for steel cars.
I think the Sixth Avenue line was elctrified, but otherwiseleft in original condition.
Maybe I'm wrong but didn't they have Low-V's running on the Third Av El?
The third avenue el ran Q cars and the wooden jobbies. Wasn't until after they cut off the tie to Manhattan that LoV's and WF cars ran, but only on the Bronx portion beginning in (I THINK) 1955 or so. In the late 60's, they were eventually replaced with R12's ... last runs on the line that Saturday though saw the LoV's return for a number of fan trips ... 204th was my home station.
Only on the Bronx portion, after 1955. Even the lighter Composites were banned from the older local tracks along Third Ave.
The Third Avenue El in THE BRONX ran Lo-V's.....the Bronx portion was build later, and used sturdier construction.
The heaviest cars to run on the Manhattan Els were the Composites and the Q-Cars. The Composites, moved to the Els in the teens, had to be retrofitted with lighter-weight trucks. Even though they were mostly made of wood, they were deemed to heavy for the Els. They were only used in rush-hour service on the express tracks (which were also built later).
In 1948, when the Astoria line became all-BMT and the Flushing Line became all-IRT, the Q-Cars were moved to the Els to replace the Composites. The lightweight trucks from the Composites were grafted onto the Q-Cars.
I think there's a pic on the R12 page on this site that shows an R12 at 149th/3rd Avenue, dressed up in work paint. The date is given as 5/1/73. Is the information accurate? (maybe Dave can straigten out any misundestanding on my part about the date)
If so, why would a work train have made a run on the El almost a month after the last service? Would there have been ANY reason for some sort of inspection? Was this in fact, the very final run?
I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me out here...
Signal removals, removal of equipment and such. One track was left operable for quite some time after last revenue use.
Thanks for the info...can anyone tell me when the absolute LAST run of any kind took place on the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave El?
What about the Jamaica Avenue line to 168th?
Here ya go, pictures galore included at no extra charge!
http://palter.org/~subway/
Thanks!!
That is quite a site, thanks for sharing it with us.
Piggo
You're most welcome! While nycsubway.org is far and away the most complete there is, there are some other niches out there as well. Palter's site hasn't changed much over the years and thus it's wonderful that it's still there. The 3rd avenue el was my "home line" along with the Jerome and the D train. I was lucky enough to be able to WORK the D train though from the other end of the line. Damned TA. Lived at 205th, had to pick Coney. Arrgh. :)
The shots of the Culver Line had a distinctly forlorn look and feeling to them due to the dismal grey overcast. It makes you wish for a hot cup of coffee, or hot Cocoa with a real whipped cream....
The Kingsbridge Trolley Barn seems like it popped out of Charles Dickens Novel. It makes a nice Prototype don't you think?
avid
You could tell the 3 stops from Ditmas to 9th Ave were D.O.A the day the IND connection opened. It was allowed to die over a 21 year period.
Used to joyride the Culver often and even when the sun was out, it was dismal. You just KNEW its days were soon to be over just by the neglect ... though the Franklin shuttle was just as neglected too. But somehow the pictures fit the MOOD of the subways back then. Same for the old trolley depot. Wonder if they're still stuffing busses in there?
Why am I getting an error message when I click on the hyperlink?
Dunno ... the tags are valid as is the address - perhaps your provider might not have "seen" it at the time ... it's good though and does work, no tricks required.
I love this site. I can ride a line which was torn down when I was only a baby!
Jamaica service ended east of Queens Blvd. on 9/9/77, but several fantrips of Standards and Triplex trains ran on the line on 9/11. There are several pictures of these fantrips in the Car Roster Section.
The section between Alabama Ave. and Cypress Hills is an oddball of sorts in that while it could support BMT standards, it could not handle the Triplexes. It wasn't a question of gross weight, since one Triplex unit was less than ten tons heavier than two BMT standards (the service equivalent of one Triplex). The issue was axle weight. A fully loaded Triplex bore down at 40,000 lbs per axle.
But they did run there on fantrips.
I would imagine they determined that one train of Triplexes making a fantrip would not cause any harm. Chances are that prolonged Triplex operation on the older stretch could have caused a catastrophic failure.
They sure never ever used a Triplex on that line during the twenty years I lived alongside of it.
Today, it's a bit scary to be on an idle J train at Alabama Ave. when another train is moving on the other tracks. Shakes like crazy ...
Triplex were always on the Southern Division
As the multisection cars were always on the Eastern division ...
Usually on the 14th Carnarsie Line and sometimes on the Myrtle-Chambers (16) (10)
I don't think the Multi's got to Myrtle-Chambers until about 1956, which was about five years before they were scrapped.
"Subway Cars of the BMT" states they were moved to the Myrtle-Chambers (10) line after the outer Fulton/Pitkin el was closed in 1956 and the Lefferts Blvd-14th St. route was eliminated. They were scrapped in 1961.
Before that, Myrtle-Chambers was all Standards, and occasionally R-16's
The book also relates a funny story about he multi's famous braking problems. A picture shows how a string running on the Queens bound "10" route overshot the Myrtle Ave. station. Not by a few feet, but the train kept going completley through the station, nearly clearing the whole interlocking on it's way to Central Ave before stopping! Ouch.
Now that is a braking problem, especially on that tight turn!
You would have loved standing on the old Crescent St station when a train would stop as far away as Cleveland St.
I guess you don't remember Crescent Street until the early 1980's. The canopies swayed like there was an earthquake whenever a train stopped.
Meanwhile, they tore down the third avenue El because it was "rickety" ... only thing that shook on that line was the buildings around it. ;)
Try Elder Ave, Pelham Bay Park-bound platform, at the front. Worst shakes I've ever seen.
--Mark
It was strengthened soon after the Williamsburgh Bridge opened to accomodate steel subway cars.
Great input !
I had figured that it was 3 track at some point based on the construction, i.e. it wouldn't take much to add a 3rd track (I'm talking about the structor vs. ctr platform stations).
Would seem to still make since vs. opening & closing doors that are already crammed. Oh well ... could have, would have, should have.
Mr rt__:^)
The third track was never there, except in the 2 short spur areas described earlier. Today, a 3rd track installation would require the removal of dozens of structures built between the tracks to accomodate the signal system replacement.
Dozens? More then or equal to 24 structures?
Its been a while, and sometimes one doesn't notice things, but dozens!
I have to get back there for anothe looksee, or perhaps our L.A. train watcher and VHS producer can pull his Master out and do a quick count.
avid
Avid, I have Salaam's tape, and there are a awful lot of those stupid little buildings between the tracks now. I haven't tried to count them though.
Thank you. That answers one question.
I beleive the TA remove one entrance on most of the stations, including the mezzanine. Perhaps these areas could be used or the things could be side slung?
Did or, were you able to see if the iron work for an Express station was partially in place at Woodhaven? Let me Know, maybe I'll swing past there on my home tonight. It's out of the way, but this is interesting. I still advocate :
1) an Express trac, rush hour direction
2) an express station at Woodhaven Blvd and Cypress Hills
3) a fly under/over between Elderts Lane and Cypress Hills between the southbound (towards Manh) and the express track. This would place the Express track on the outside position. this would allow the express to:
4) continue on a new bypass, single track, Airtrain like structure that runs along the northerly side of Jamaica Ave, causing the least amount of disruption to residents along that area. The local tracks would continue as is. Both local and exprss would rejoin at Eastern Parkway.
avid
If you walk past the McDonald's at 91st St, going towards Woodhaven Blvd, the pillars do start to swing out before the station structure begins. This is only on the Manhattan-bound side.
Also, you'll notice the buildings on that side of Jamaica Ave gradually move farther back from the street, to accomodate the extra room needed for a potential express stop here.
I missed it.
Not because it's not there, but because of my zeal to get home, I forgot what my earlier intentions were.
I'll try again on Monday.
Again, I don't you. I just want to see for myself as someone would want to see a waterfall that others spoke about.
avid
As I said, walk eastward on the northern side of Jamaica Ave. from 91 St. (directly in front of the McDonald's on the corner) towards Woodhaven Blvd. You'll notice the buildings moving gradually farther back from the street as well as the girders swinging inward as if the tracks were seperating for a 2 island express station. Don't feel bad if you miss it at first. I've lived in Woodhaven for 24 years, walked past this area millions of times, yet only noticed it a couple of years ago.
I don't remember any variation in the el structure at Woodhaven Blvd, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't exist. I live 200 miles from NY now, and haven't been back in a lomg time.
I think that the el was built on Fulton St 118 years ago because there was a lack of development north of Jamaica Ave due to the parks and cemetaries. It was thought to be better to build through the center of a populated area rather than along the edge of it. Users would have less distance to walk.
There's one large structure at the edge of each station, and several smaller locker-type structures. There's also a very large structure adjacent to the powerhouse at Forest Parkway.
Just what does this new signal system do that the old one didn't, that makes all of those little buildings necessary?
Dunno, perhaps it's a more complicated signal system. Both tracks are signalled for each direction, so there are twice as many as before.
Well there's our signal equipement.
Install the third track, and shift the Wrong way equipement to it for bi-directional use. Thats a big savings. There is a precident for this. Weren't the Rockaway branch signals salavaged from the Bronx?
avid
It's my understanding (think I read it elsewhere on this site) that there was some talk of actually installing the express track around 1958, as well as building a by-pass to the S-curve,enabling a proper express run.
Reportedly, NIMBYs of that era prevented comnstruction of the elevated by-pass. However, the single trackway visible just beyond East New York may have been an abortive start of this project..??
This was installed in 1917 to accomodate the planned Fulton St. flyung express track, which never got built.
According to my grandfather, the Jamaica el was designed to be three tracks, with the Woodhaven Blvd. station being a typical express stop with 2 island platforms (the pillars on the Manhattan bound side do swing out to accomodate this design to this day). It was designed in 1915, before our involvment in WWI. During it's construction, the desperate need for rail service into Woodhaven & Jamaica, which were booming and had an exploding population necessitated the speeding up of construction. It was decided to build the 2 current tracks with all side platforms to get the line working ASAP. Conversion to 3 track service would be undertaken later, which included building a 3rd "flying" express track over the island platforms of the Fulton St section of the line. Financial and other circumstances conspired against the conversion.
There were only 2 center "spurs" built into the line, the current one at 111th St.(which was the terminal for the line from 5/1917 to 9/1917) and at 160th St, used to lay up trains.
If anyone can find a copy of a book called "The History of Woodhaven and Ozone Park", they will find it fascinating, as it goes into detail about how the residents of Woodhaven wanted the BRT to build a subway under Jamaica Ave, and the alternate routes, one of which had the el running 3 blocks south, along the current 91st Ave! The current plan was a compromise that satisfied few people. Jamaica Ave, once lined with large houses, was converted into a commercial strip within 2 years of the el's opening.
I lived 2 blocks from the Woodhaven Blvd station in the 60's, but never took note of the provisions.
The fly-over express track was attempted and started from Eastern parkway just up to Alabama Avenue in the 1950's. Structural engineers determined the 1880's El couldn't support it. Too bad they couldn't run it directly down Jamaica Avenue from there.
The Crescent Street siding is now more elaborate than I remember. I don't recall the crossovers at the north end.
The Alabama Ave flyover steel has been there a lot longer than 1950.
The Crescent St north-end switches were added sometime after I moved out in 1957.
In December '88, when Archer Ave opened, the Jamica Ave El was still in place as far a Sutphin Boulevard (though severed from the part remaining today). There had been no service beyone 121 st Street after April 1985, and no service beyone Queen Blvd after 1977. This, the stretch between Queens and Sutphin Blvds sat unused for many years.
By the time I ws next in the area, in late 1990, all of this had been removed.
The Jamaica EL was cut back to Queens Blvd in 1977. In April 1985, the EL was further reduced to 121 Street (although during rush hours, alternate trains began service at 111 Street!!). The Queens Blvd-168
portion was gone by 1980, but the stretch from 121 St to Queens Blvd survived until about 1990ish. I can recall after April 1985 seing the abandoned el structure coated in a decaying, rusting, green scheme, and the structure looked like it was ready to fall anyway!!
Tony
Once upon a time,
The E went to 179 Street/Hillside like the F does now.
The J and all the other lettered trains along the route went to 168 Street/Jamaica Ave.
The J was the 15 First
Yup, then after 15, it became the JJ followed by QJ, then finally J in 1973.
I still like a number system better. Those duel letters are real screwy and they can confuse a tourist all to hell.
Actually the dual letters (always the same letter as in AA, BB, CC, DD, EE, etc) made TOTAL sense within the IND realm ... double letters meant that you could COUNT on it being a local and a single letter could be counted on to be an express ... certainly more logical than diamonds and circles today.
I *still* don't know what a circle or a diamond means relative to "this is an express for certain and the other one's a local" ... in a braincramp I can't fathom, instead the shapes indicate a time interval instead of a route. Now THAT is illogical. When exactly IS "rush hour" if you're from out of town?
Quick, back in the days of the double letters, did the E run express in Manhattan? Did the F run express in Manhattan and Brooklyn?
As designed, the all IND Brooklyn and Queens locals were to remain in Brooklyn and Queens alone.
Unfortunately, there are two broad usages of the diamond.
The first is on maps, where the diamond is used to denote any rush hour service, as well as anything that falls into the second usage. This is misguided, IMO, since it's impossible to tell from the map if the service is a rush-hour-only service or if it's simply a part-time variant, as described below.
The second is on train signs and timetables, and it's quite elegant. A diamond route is a variant of its associated circle route meeting the following conditions: (a) the diamond's hours are a proper subset of the circle's hours, and (b) either the diamond runs express where the circle runs local or the diamond and local diverge at some point (but, necessarily in either case, there are some stops served by the circle but not served by the diamond).
This second usage accounts for the < A > (which doesn't appear on signs but does appear on timetables), the < E > (rush hour specials to 179th, to start next month -- we'll see if the diamonds appear), the < Q >, the < 6 >, and the < 7 >. It also explains why diamonds aren't used on the B (all rush hour trains run to the Bronx, and an extension does not meet the second criterion), the D (all rush hour trains have the same express pattern in the Bronx), the F short-turns (a short-turn does not meet the second criterion), the J (the service pattern is defined by time of day), the M (again, time of day), the Z (rush hours only), or the 4 (all rush hour peak direction trains skip 138th Street). The odd man out is the 5, where all rush hour trains are signed with diamonds. I maintain that this is an error -- only the special service to 238th Street should be given diamonds, and all Dyre trains, at all times, should have circles. Every 5 runs peak-direction express in the Bronx. I'm disappointed that the R-142's maintain this erroneous usage.
Heh. Yeah, inconsistency is the only workrule that remains. I do recall the E was an express as was the F in Queens, and the E if I'm not completely addled WAS an express in Manhattan but the F wasn't on 6th so your point is well taken. Confusing the geese was a full time job.
But then again, I'm one of those few rare folks who thought the 1969 multicolor map was the least confusing of them all and I'm clearly in a minority here on that point. Gee ... is the red train a local or an express? :)
I recall that the E train ran express in Manhattan in the 60's and 70's rush hours when the E was extended from Hudson Terminal to Euclid Ave or the Rockaways. Until 1973 the E operated as an express between Hoyt/Scmerhorn and Euclid Ave and after 1973 it made all local
stops. The E stopped running Express in 1976 when it began to operate at all times till the World Trade Center station.
Hope this helps
Thank You
Thank ya! I blew town around then - worked the "ta" in 1970 and 71. It was going to hell in a handbasket when I was there, got worse. But it was still making some sense and we'd use our shoe crunchers to whack timers when necessary. When the equipment had indication and power, the trains ran back in the days when the third notch would smack your head into the breaker panel. :)
The map with all the colors, I think was very confusing. The nice thing about the current map is that, if you know why each line is the color that it is (trunk lines in Manhattan), You always know which line is going where. For example a yellow train in Brooklyn will wind up on Broadway, an orange will wind up on 6th avenue, etc. It actually was good planning when they designed the map. Anyone ready to choose the color for 2nd Avenue? (We'll all probably be dead by the time that happens)
Brown is a possibility. We'll be in it deep by the time they dig another hole over there. :)
The E ran express in Manhattan during rush hours until it was permanently cut back to WTC in 1976. For a time in the early 70s, southbound trains even entered 42nd St. via the lower level during rush hours. Prior to that, it was extended out to Euclid Ave or the Rockaways during rush hours, flipflopping over the years with the A between express and local along Fulton St.
Perhaps the R-1/9s should have had an "E-8th Ave. Local/Express" dise route sign. The 8th Ave. Express designation was a misnomer. I was utterly betrayed by that sign once and it seared an image I've never shaken. To this day I still refuse to take a southbound E beyond 34th St.
Nope ... the "E 8th Avenue Exp" was accurate ... until the MTA came along. Before the "gee, let's run this train over here instead" kids came along, the routes were very well designated and very flexible. You could pretty much run a train from any north terminal to any south terminal and have the correct signage for it. And Express to Hudson Terminal was a pretty easy routing once upon a time too. But if you ever wondered why the "slowpoke" south from 59th to 42 on 8th, it was those pesky E trains cutting in ahead of you.
Anyhoo, if they wanted to run it local, then it would have been an EE train. That was also available.
I only had one slowpoke express run on a southbound A on that stretch, and it had nothing to do with an E crossing in front of it. It was on a Saturday, and as for what was going on, I don't know. We stopped dead at 50th St., and my mother actually thought this was our stop! Uh, no, we're sitting on the express track and this is a local stop. Needless to say, we didn't come screaming into 42nd St. I've had weird dreams in which the train is at that exact same location, and the doors actually opened! People jumped down to the track, climbed over the third rails, and scrambled onto the platform.
Rush hours, you could always count on a crawl from 59 to 42 as E's stacked up like cordwood. Add a dash of timers and you wished you'd changed for the local. :)
Maybe that's why they rerouted rush hours E trains to the lower level during the early 70s. I vaguely remember seeing a service change sign pointing out that rush hour E trains would be using the lower level at 42nd St.
Didn't help all that much - merely postponed the inevitable to 34th ...
By the time the E was using the lower level at 42nd St., my subway riding was down to near zero. I rarely went into the city during the early 70s and did not set foot on the subway at all during 1974 and 1975.
You weren't missing much. 1975 in NYC pretty much convinced me to move upstate. Taking a bullet in the right leg from a moron on a rooftop, with the slug bounding off the sidewalk and up, one inch below the jewels on the inside pretty much helped in the decision-making. Taking the train from the Bronx into the city stopping every ten feet due to "mechanical problems" pretty much convinced this goose to fly. Then it got worse, so I hear.
Selkirk: That would convince anybody to clear out of town. I hope there has been no residual problems with your wound. You seem to be very chipper when we converse so I guess it was a great move. I will have to say, though, that I enjoy visiting New York City as often as I can. But, then again, I always know that I have the power to return to my home in California. New York City can be a great place to live, but only if you have a lot of money and can live in some of those special communities where security is tight and very little crime takes place.
Same feeling here. I've always loved New York, but strictly as a visitor. I get my annual subway fix once a year, then am good for another year.
I wonder how often Fred leaves his small area of Arcadia to see the real parts of LA, The land of drive by shootings, gangs and otheres
Heard of any drive=by shootings lately pal? Come off it, you're stuck in a time warp. Things have been cool for at least the last five or six years. For your info, Palos Verdes Estates is LA, Arcadia is LA, Canyon Country is LA, Long Beach is LA, Downey is LA. LA is more than some of the sore points you always seem to dredge up.
>>> Heard of any drive=by shootings lately pal? Come off it, you're stuck in a time warp. Things have been cool for at least the last five or six years <<<
I guess Arcadia's newspaper only tells about the garden club's latest meeting. The time warp for those of us in the big city has been all to short based on these items from the Los Angeles Times:
11/27/01
"An 9-month-old boy in a minivan was fatally shot and his mother and pregnant aunt were wounded Monday afternoon in Boyle Heights. The victims, parked in the 3000 block of 6th Street, were planning to move and were about to look at a house. At 3:45 p.m., the gunman, who police suspect is a gang member, approached the back of the minivan ...." (I guess this is technically a walk by shooting)
11/20/01
"A 16-year-old Belmont High School varsity baseball player who dreamed of making it to the pros was shot to death Sunday night in front of his home near Echo Park, authorities said. Juan Delgado was fatally struck near the ribs by a bullet from a vehicle, ..."
11/13/01
"A 21-year-old Los Angeles man, who was riding in a car in the 1000 block of West Glenoaks Boulevard, was hit in the arm about 6:30 p.m. Thursday. Two groups of people in two cars exchanged looks' and someone from one of the cars fired shots into the other car, officials said. ...."
11/11/01
"Community leaders, motivated in part by the drive-by shooting death of a 10-year-old Boyle Heights girl in October 2000, developed the one-year pilot program "
"Gunfire has killed 18 people in Boyle Heights in the last eight months, police statistics show."
11/11/01
"Sheriff's Chief Michael Nagaoka, who oversees the region that includes Century, said gang-related crimes jumped nearly 10% in the first half of this year. Drive-by shootings, gang crimes with guns and gang assaults on deputies all have increased, he said."
11/10/01
"A 26-year-old Los Angeles man was killed in an apparent drive-by shooting, police said Friday. Rudolpho Rodarte, 26, was driving west in the 300 block of West Chevy Chase Drive near Central Avenue at 10 p.m. Thursday when he was shot once in the head...."
Tom
Well it the city of Los Angeles is so rotten as you proclaim then get the hell out of there and move to the suburbs. All cities have their problems and I'm getting sick and tired of all of you guys out there bagging on Southern California in general and the Los Angeles area in particular. If you dislike it so much move to the salubrious climate of Minneapolis or the humidity of Jacksonville or the rainy city of Portland.
Fred you can give it out, but you can t take it. All the places you named are Middle Class Suburbs of LA, get real Get out of Arcadia and see the real LA
>>>Fred you can give it out, but you can t take it.<<<
The main reason he is the ONLY inhabitant of my killfile.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee Fred is one of my best friends, not only here on Sub Talk, but in real life, we argue and bicker on this, but I would give my arm for him. He is really cool, even for a old Republican School Teacher, but he is a wise man and good man.
OK, I have many things to disscuss (sp)
Bring IT on...
Peace<
ANDEE
Andee you sound like a intelligent kid, just respect people the way you want to be respected. A lot of people on this site are older then youy, and have more expierence. Just read and learn. ok?
Bob, obviously you don't know Andee... he's nearly Fred's age...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
60
60? I thought he is a kid
No Bob, he just acts like one. He's a 60 version of American Pig, only Pig is smart and has brains and knows what the hell he's talking about.
So does Andee, Fred... not sure why the two of you don't get along, but he's a really nice curmudgeon, in an Andy Rooney sort of way. He does get frustrated when threads drift off-topic and is a lot more willing to speak out about it than a lot of the rest of us, that's all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I learned a long time aGO, IF YOU CAN T SAY SOMETHING NICE, DON T SAY IT AT ALL
60? I thought he is a kid
It's all a matter of perspective ... to someone 90 years old, he is!
As a famous expression goes, you know you're getting older when pro athletes start looking young, you're really getting older when police officers start looking young, and you're totally over the hill when Congressmen* start looking young!
* = presumably excluding Strom Thurmond, who looks young solely from the perspective of a Galapagos tortoise.
Thank you sir. And whatever transpires on Subtalk you are one of my best friends as well. But you knew that.
Your ok for a Republican and a Reagan worshiper
REPUBLICAN AND SCHOOL TEACHER - IS THAT NOT A CONTRADICTION?
Jro my bro, believe it or not there are lots of Republican school teachers. Where I teach in California about half of us are GOPERS. It usually goes by departments. Science and Math and Business teachers are usually Republicans, while the humanties like English and History find teachers much more liberal and therefore Democrat. However, I teach history and in my department close to 50% of us are Republicans. Strange but true.
Someone tell Andee the Jerk that proves conclusively that I am a person of some character and class. You can judge a person by both his friends and his enemies, and since he is the only one I consider to be hostile, and the fact that he's a horse's ass, speaks highly for me. Stuff it Andee.
Peace
Freddy
Of course Washington Heights, Bed-Sty, Flushing, and the South Bronx are really garden spots of America, right? Listen bub, when they advertise the wonders of New York, those places never come to mind. Same out here. BTW,. it is sunny and 63 degrees outside today. What say you? Can't hear you from admidst that scarf and hood around your mouth and head.
Fred, I hate to tell you the bad news, but the temperature here is 65, and the sunshine feels great. I think I am about 60 miles north of Bob.
My hats off to you Karl. Glad you're getting good weather. I have to admit I get a bit ticked off when they knock Southern California.
We certainly have our problems but I live in a great town and have a nice job. I am thoroughly Californian and I don't see the warts others seem to see. Enjoy the good weather while it lasts, and I must make a confession at 4:17 California time. It's getting very cold and cloudy and they say we are going to have a hell of a storm tonight. Now what was that I said a few hours earlier? I take it back.
If you get rain, send some our way! We are dealing with a 13 inch precipatation deficit for the year. We were on the verge of a drought emergency until we got a little rain last weekend.
>>> We are dealing with a 13 inch precipatation deficit for the year. <<<
Hell we're lucky to get 13" of rain in two years here in Southern California. Unfortunately when we do get rain it usually follows fires which have burnt off the hillside vegetation, leading to mudslides.
Tom
Watch the sewers back up, if they have sewers in Arcadia
If you two carry on like this next October, we'll be barred from the subway for life for having too much fun.:-)
Nah, you should of heard us in August. Me Im the quiet one, Fred is the talk talk talk.
Yeah, and I'm Ringo. :)
Hey Selkirk, I'm glad you can read through Bob's subterfuge. At least he's not kidding everyone, and all of you are smart out there he shouldn't be kidding anyone.
what are you talking about? and did yopu get my e mail last night????
I'm going to have to practice holding my ribs if we all get together next fall. Especially if you two get into another shouting match.:-)
We don t shout
Nah, shouting is not for us. We throw things--and it would be a good idea for innocent bystanders not to get in the way. Sounds like of exciting, eh? Looking forward to next fall?
with luck it would be the week of my niece s wedding in White Plains, and kill 2 birds with one stone.
You mean to tell me you two weren't going back and forth with a lively "SEA BEACH!!!" "BRIGHTON!!!" exchange?:-)
Nope, it was Pro Reagan and Anti Reagan
One of you should say, "Well I suppose if they were to drop a bomb on the White House, I might get mad." Ronnie actually said that.
Or say, "Well..." at the start of each sentence.:-)
What the hell is Bob talking about? He's the loud one. They don't call him motor mouth for nothing. Me? I'm the strong silent one----well the silent one anyway.
You talked to anyone around you on the trip, picking up girls (trying) young enough to be your grand daughter
69 here in Winchester
I still have a bit of a scar from it - the worst of it was getting the slug pulled way back when. As to NYC, crime tends to find you USUALLY when you're off your guard and look like a mark - in this case it was some moron who was aiming at someone else and missed by a New York mile. Since moving upstate, my attitude towards guns has changed a bit - all I ask is that while folks are in the joint, that they be taught how to *AIM* ... heh.
But I've lived in all sorts of places including East 5th Street near Avenue B, Saint Marks' and other places that scared me a whole lot more than the Bronx or Bed-Stuy ... but if you're the craziest sumbitch on the street, you get left alone. They with the best sidewalk act win. Kids, don't try this at home. :)
Alphabet land rules........used to service equipment at 169 Ave. A....'Brownies'.....never had to draw a weapon because the customers were so bombed out at 9AM. Place is now a Yuppie landmark. Peter
Heh ... for me, the Angel's clubhouse was the safest part of town. :)
I was inside once....it was safe....no door was locked and most were left open....until NYPD showed up with a APC. AND you-know-who serviced the sound system and pool table down the block. What bugged me: those dead motorcycles left in the street to retain parking space. Peter
Heh. I heard about the APC incident. And yeah, nobody screwed with the guys over parking spaces. I lived down the block for a few months once upon a time.
And yeah, nobody screwed with the guys over parking spaces.
I tried to a couple years ago... it was 3 or 4:00 on a Monday morning, and I had been circling for hours trying to park a minivan; needless to say, I wasn't thinking 100% clearly. All those bikes, diagonally parked with enough space between them for two more, taking up the entire block on East 3 *seriously* ticked me off, so I yelled something to the effect of "think can you space those tricycles any any further apart?" to one of the Angels. On my next pass, he and a couple other guys were turning the bikes parallel to the curb... at least he had a sense of humor; it could have been much worse :).
Heh. I admire your stones. :)
Where did the C terminate, when the E was going to Brooklyn?
There wasn't a "C" ... there was a CC local from Beford to Hudston Terminal. Dunno when they created the "C" that runs to BK now, but the only times there was a "C" prior was when there were route diversions on a short term basis as far as I know.
>>> There wasn't a "C" ... there was a CC local from Beford to Hudston Terminal <<<
The 1948 service Information pamphlet indicated the CC (Bronx Concourse Local) as running local from Bedford Park to Hudson Terminal during rush hours only. The AA (Washington Heights Local) running local from 168th Street to Hudson Terminal in non rush hours, and BB (Washington Heights Local) running local from 168th Street to 34th Street (on 6th Ave) during rush hours only. There was no B or C express.
Tom
Absolutely right ... and it stayed that way for MANY years afterward with the exception of the BB becoming the B train and running here there and everywhere, playing peekaboo with the AA ...
In the immediate post-Chrystie years, R32s designated as 'B' West End service still carried the pre-Chrystie 'BB' front and side signs. This was also seen on the rare occasions a 27/30 ran the line from about 1978 through '88.
Gradually the front sign was replaced by the standard black bullseye B in a circle, and the side signs would be a black-on-white B next to the standard '6TH AVENUE LOCAL' designation- at least on the 32s. When 38s started to dominate the 'B' around 1977, they by and large had the correct signage- no 'BB'.
For both World's Fairs, there was a special 'G' train that ran express from Hoyt/Schermerhorn through Brooklyn into Queens. For the 1939-40 fair, the line extended past its usual Forest Hills terminus out through the Jamaica yards and on a surface ROW along what is now the Van Wyck extension to slightly south of the LIE interchange. It's a crying shame this ROW was torn up after that fair.
For the second fair, the special 'G' just ran express from Brooklyn to Jackson Heights, where everyone would then have to go upstairs for the '7'.
There was a C/Concourse Express when the Concourse line opened in 1933. AFAIK it was discontinued during the late 40s. There was a temporary C service during a water main break at 6th Ave and 23rd St. in 1962. The odd part is, it ran to 34th St. and SIXTH Ave.!
I remember the signage from that event ... and surmise that there must have been a "C" at sometime but never knew when.
They also had a DD - the only time that marking was ever used. In addition, the AA and BB switched times of operation. The AA ran during rush hours, the BB during non-rush hours.
It was still the CC in those days, and it terminated at what is now known as WTC. Basically, in 1976, the CC took over rush hour Fulton St. service. Since it ran only during rush hours anyway, it made sense to simply extend it and permanently cut the E back to WTC, simplifying things in the process.
During part of this time, the CC ran to Rockaway Park, thus making it the only route that went in all 4 subway boroughs.
Actually, today's B (terminating at 34 St/6 Av) would have been designated as a DD, since it runs on the Concourse line.
Then there was the EE that ran local along Queens Blvd (okay) but then ended up on the Broadway line, not 8th Av, terminating at Whitehall. I guess there was no logical existing designation at the time for the TA to name that train.
The C ran to Rockaway Park as late as 1992. A friend of mine, visiting from out of town, ended up at Rockaway Park by accident when he boarded a C train at High Street forgetting that trains run both ways.
Some R-1/9s were assigned to the EE. They already had EE signs, albeit with an "8th Ave." subscript which was covered over on the end route signs. I never rode on an EE; however, I do remember seeing trains signed up as EEs laid up on the Broadway express tracks on a Saturday during the winter of 1967-68.
I agree with you, Selkirk. Each line having its own UNIQUE color is easiest to understand.
"express in Manhattan but the F wasn't on 6th "
Actually the F *was* an express in Manhattan, as it only stopped at express stations. AND 34th STREET WAS THE LAST STOP!
Elias
Whoops ... thinking in terms of my own time in the hole ... F was culver at this point in time. 34th as a terminus indicates that you remember when the D was the culver ... I remember the F ending at 2nd Avenue for a while though.
The J ran above ground o Jamaica Avenue to 168 street.
I will be away starting tomorrow, arriving back home Saturday night. I probably won't check SubTalk till Sunday. Talk to you all then!
While visiting The Bronx yesterday to photograph some redbirds before they disappear, I was amazed at the large number of R-26's and R-28's I observed still in service. I saw some on each of the 2, 5 and 6. Seemed like more were on the 2. With over 500 R-142's and R-142A's reportedly now in service, why are there still so many R-26/28's still in service. I realize the TA is scrapping some R-29/33/36's already, but I wouldn't have expected so many older R-26/28's to have survived this long.
Go by 207St Yard. There are no Redbirds waiting on the scrap line. Those R142 are doing wonders.
I don't think the Bondo Squad is still around, though.
Yeah, we just be in da bunker. Heh. Have magnets, will drop to the tracks. :)
Redbird Count as of 11/14/01
R-26 = 42
R-28 = 42
R-29 = 192
R-33 = 522
R-36 = 366
Total = 1164
R142 = 280
R-142A = 310
Many of the R-26s and the R-28s have been scrapped already so don't expect to see the remaining R-26s and R-28s for much longer.
#3 West End Jeff
Even car number 7773 with the R-21/22 storm doors are still around its a second car now not a lead car anymore.
I'm sure that particular car will be gone quite soon.
#3 West End Jeff
Is MTA still negotiating with different coastline states' Environmental Societies for approval of the "dumping" of the Redbirds?
Delaware has taken 400 cars, and I heard from "r142man" that North Carolina was taking another fraction.
I don't know anything about the North Carolinian deal, but if someone can let me know, that'd be great.
As long as MTA doesn't find a place to rid of them, they'll still be in service. I know they're old cars and need replacing, but it makes up the "nature" of the subway, at least for me anyway.
Railfan Pete.
A bunch of them are already at the bottom of the ocean. They domped them a few months back. I even saw a photo of them doing it a while back. It was in Newsday I think, but I'm sure it was in some other papers also.
sorry, my finger slipped - dumped not domped
I know, but only 400 of them. MTA has over 1000 Redbird cartypes and they need to find different states which lie along the East Coast to agree to take the cars to "dump" them.
New Jersey has rejected the plan because of the asbestos in the walls of the train.
Delaware is continuing the plan for 20cars/wk. for 20 weeks on a barge at a depth of 80 ft., so scuba divers can still check them out.
The other state was North Carolina but I have heard nothing about it.
A $10 million budget is used to take those cars to Delaware and the Coastline States, which has saveed the City $3 million in contrast to the $13 million deal to just dump them in a landfill.
I have no news about Virginia, and I think South Carolina is too far, and I don't know about Connecticut or states like that.
If the States can't take them, who will?
It'll be interesting to find out.
While riding the #6 train recently I saw only R142's and R-62's in service. No Redbirds. Are they used only to beef up rush hour service?
During my Tuesday trip, I saw several trains of redbirds on the #6 around 1:30 in the afternoon. So, at least that day, they weren't confined to only rush hour service.
As an aside, I also saw a train of R-62's (not R-62A's) on the #6. I assumed this train had been diverted from the #4 for some reason.
I saw a few of them on the 5 last month.
does anyone else find the new "basic search" column [which was added to search screens today] an unwelcome intrusion as it eliminates other info?
i find this as annoying as the 'checkout now' info they added a week or so ago. i suspect that these decisions are being made in a vacuum.
john rofrano
(This is the second feed of the show, which first aired WED 9 pm ET.)
FIRST RESPONSE
Thursday, November 15 (Wed. night/Thurs. morning)
1:00 AM EST
History Channel
Relive the stories of amazing courage and dedication as New York City first responded to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. In a minute-by-minute, timeline fashion, we hear remarkable details of how the mayor, police, fire-rescue, EMS, office of emergency management, hospitals, and other official departments reacted to the stunning attack. Among the compelling accounts is the story of Ladder Company 6--their story of survival in the midst of the entire department's heroics is truly inspiring.
TV PG
Source: historychannel.com
Don't have cable/sat here but there is a big TWU stink: 2300 Transit employees participated from the start without a mention. Don't get me wrong...I am well aware of the risks and loss of NYFD and NYPD but the public IS NEVER aware of the hazards MTA employees face. Working about the heavy machinery, high voltage and railway tracks are day to day hazards faced by a very large percentage of employees. Peter
to me this shows how much time and money is being wasted on extra Security now what the website said about the world trade center:
SECURITY
The World Trade Center's security program is unmatched by any other commercial or government building in
the U.S. It is a national model for security that is comprehensive, while being expeditious and convenient for
tenants. Over 300 security guards, complementing our Port Authority Police, regularly secure the complex.
A comprehensive tenant I.D. and visitor pass program is in place and a new electronic access-control system
using proximity photo I.D. cards for building tenant/employees was recently installed to streamline tenant and
visitor access. Visitors receive photo I.D. swipe cards for turnstile access.
LIFE SAFETY
The World Trade Center features the most technologically advanced and comprehensively deployed life safety
system currently available. Besides completely retrofitting sprinklers throughout the complex, new fire alarm
and fire communication systems are in place. Emergency standby generators (6000 kW capacity) on the B6
level, provide all base building life safety items, including lighting, fire pumps, elevators, and fire alarms. In
addition, the complex has yet another source of emergency power from the PATH system, a 2,000 kW feeder
from the NJ PSE&G grid to serve critical life safety loads.
What's your point?
Do you think some security guards and/or police on the ground and in the buildings would have stopped those planes? How? Human shield? Shoot at them from the ground with their guns? So should they not even bother with security guards? Get real.
Do you think a fire sprinkler system will put out thousands of tons of jet fuel fire? Obviously you've never seen a sprinkler system in action. They're meant to suppress office fires, like fried computer monitors and things like that. Not to mention the fact that the impact of the planes probably severed the pipes cutting off the water pressure. So should they have not even bothered with a sprinkler?
Hmm, I noticed they didn't employ psychics...
Where'd you get this from, I thought the whole web site was taken off!
The buildings were very safe under NORMAL conditions. But is it normal to fly planes full of fuel at full speed into buildings? If the pipes are severed, no amount of state of the art sprinlklers or security are going to help.
Today there was a screw up at New Lots Yard ,witch left some trains changing signs Guess what I got stuck with coming out the yard with ,thats right a Redbird in all her glory . It wasnt that bad a ride,You definately notice how much the 62's have been slowed down ,We made the 1732 out of NL ,the 125st dash was nice train was bouncing like crazy also I noticed the speed between 191 and Dyckman it was a blur.but the best part was Most people didnt get on thinking it ws a #2 LOL
OHMY is right.
What was on the side signs? I thought the 1 and 3 readings had been covered by the 2-5 and 5-2 readings.
I have seen white with red lettered signs on track tile walls reading HVB. What foes that stand for? Also-what does DMH stand for.
Pretty sure HVB marks the location of a High Voltage Box
which is tapped from the third rail to run the emergency
station lighting system.
Peggy has asked me to get volunteers for the LIRR Station-by-station. We need:
Long Beach
Montauk
Greenport
Port Jefferson
Port Washington
Ronkonkoma
We have:
City Zone
Brooklyn Stations
Jamaica Station
Penn Station NYC
Babylon
Far Rockaway
For the branches start after leaving Jamaica or at the first Queens station for Port Washington
Wayne has indicated he'll do Hempstead and West Hempstead.
What is it that you are doing?
Look deep on this site & you'll very detailed info on the TA lines/stations. Peggy is doing same for LIRR. Is a very noble effort that many will benift from over time. I visited West Hempstead for her & provided details on the "Long Beach" station. You would be suprised what you find along the line, i.e. West Hempstead is single track, but goes back to it's orig. double track at the end. You can also still see rements of the freight operation there & take a pritty good guess at where the line continued to reach the "Hempstead" branch when they were one.
Mr rt__:^)
West Hempstead is single track, but goes back to it's orig. double track at the end
As far as I know, most of the West Hempstead line was never double tracked, going back to when it was first built in 1893, even though there is room for it.
The Port Washington Branch is like that from Great Neck to the end of the line. Maybe they figured the line wasn't going to be that busy that 2 tracks were needed.
I still remember the railroad crossing across Hempstead Tnpk just north of the W Hempstead Station. When I was a little kid my parents took us both to S Klein and White Castle over there. I don't remember ever seeing any trains go by though and there were no gates there. If I remember it was only one track even though W Hempstead Station has two.
What is Peggy looking for specifically? Physical characteristics of the stations, a history of the stations...please be more specific...
BMTman
I think she was setting up the branches of the LIRR. Maybe after that is done she'll start naming the stations. Current and abondoned.Then we'll talk about them.
Peggy is looking for station-by-station descriptions. Of course that would include number of tracks, type of platform (island, wall, lowm, high), station house if present, location(open cut, tunnel, bridge, etc.), any interesting features such as stained glass, art work, scultpures,etc.
For guidelines see the IRT,BMT, IND,SIRT and PATH sections.
You could ask Subwaybuff to ask Peggy but I bet what she is looking for is the same stuff already posted. It is a bang up job that was done but I don't get out to Long Island much, maybe when it is warmer.
The Star Ledger and Bergen Record both have front page articles with pictures of the first press access to the WTC terminal. I can't find the Ledger's article on line. Here is the Record's:
Massive repairs needed before trains run again
Both articles seem to lean towards opening the existing terminal rather than going to a re-built Hudson Terminal.
I did not see any pictures.
There are some of the other station damage at www.nycrail.com/wtcnyct/index.htm
but I don't think there are with PATH
They're in the print editions. The Star Ledger has several over a couple of pages.
Star Ledger photos at http://www.nj.com/photos/ledgerphotos/
Reporters were allowed into the basement yesterday.
Reports from James Glanz of the Times and Pat Gilbert of the Bergen Record.
Is it still Pelham 123 or is it now Pelham 125?
It would be the Pelham 123 @ 25.
BTW - nowadays the train would actually be the 1323 Pelham @ 25 since we are talking 1:23 PM (when the movie took place). If it was AM then the 123 @ 25 would be right.
I thought NYCT doesn't schedule Pelham trains to leave at 1:23 or 13:23 because of fear that some book nut would try to actually hijack the train.
I don't think they do but if they did it would not be because of the book, it would because the intervals are changed periodically to meet changing passenger traffic needs.
I wonder if they'll follow up with abandoning runs on 9/11/02 "just in case" ... that's STUPID.
Are the R-142 and R-142A cars signage programmed with destinations just for the 2, 5 and 6 lines? Or could they do other IRT lines as well?
Same question for the R-143, does it just have the L line?
Can they also make automated announcements for other lines and stations?
well right know it would on be for those lines.but of coarse it could be programed
I rode North Bound Diamond 5 around 9:15 am this morning. The train was 6646-6650. I do not know the rest five cars numbers. But it is still #2 map inside of the car 6648.
"The train was 6646-6650. I do not know the rest five cars numbers. But it is still #2 map inside of the car 6648."
That's because that trainset is still actually one of the approximatly 440-500 cars that will be going to the 2. One could expect that cars numbered higher than the mid-6700s to get strip maps for the 5.
Northbound diamond 5. Where did you get on? Where did you get off? Where the automated announcements working?
From Fulton Street to Grand Central. Automated announcements were working well. Green Diamond 5 on the display inside. Red Diamond 5 at the top of the first car outside. Destination was: To: Eastchester - Dyre.
yes if you notice in the 239st in the moring there is a r142 signed up for the <5>.could this have been it
I saw R142 #6646-#6650/#6651-#6655 on #5 line in the Bronx heading to Drye Ave at 09:46am while i was heading to MTA Headquarter. I don't think this is the not the first time R142 run on #5 line.
Peace
David J.
no.its not.i caught r142 6326-6330/???? last week on the five.but one thing is that they only in the rushours
Actually, here's a story...
It was about 9:00am one morning...I was on an R142 (2) train...#6506-6510 was the first set, I don't remember the last set...anyway, it was going to 149th St-Grand Concourse, I got on at 3 Av-149th after I heard the announcement of a police investigation at Penn Station. So, after 149th St-GC, the train went on the (5) track and the conductor changed the signs. [<5> to Bowling Green] was the sign. At 138th St, the sign and the voice, a younger female voice, said "This is Baychester Avenue". Then, at 125th St, the sign and voice said "This is Gun Hill Road". After that, the announcements went normal.
What is weird is that when the announcements come on, the young female voice says "This is a Bowling Green-bound <5> express train. The next stop is...", then the R142A female voice says "86th Street". How interesting. Same for all the express stops, which are, essentially the major stops on the (6)...(125th, 86th, 59th, 42nd, 14th, Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall), so it makes some sense.
After 14th Street, the sign was changed, arbitrarily, to [<5> to G Army Plz]...wait...GRAND ARMY PLAZA??? WHAT??? I was so shocked, but it was so funny, though...(well, during the time of R142/R142A testing, I did see "(5) to E 174th St" on one of the cars, I think #6308 at the time)...
Well, kiddies...time for bed now...nightie-night! Don't let the...okayokayokay...never mind!
Cleanairbus
R142s are programmed for station locations based on measured distance and sometimes the computer loses its reference...it may take a while for the T/O to pick up on the error and re calibrate. Leads to exciting surprises...passengers should be literate in English and pay attention to station postings. All in a days fun. Peter
That used to happen with R110A too. Everytime I rode it going to Manhattan, it always announced East Tremont Avenue and Simpson Street before entering either station. Probably because they almost always went very slow rounding the very sharp curves before the stations.
Shouldn't be! The whole point of the R142 system is that it relies on programmed and measured distances based on wheel diameter times pi. Computer based train control is supposed to have track zones every 100 feet that comm with the system to let the train know where it is but the concept is stalled. The R142 relies on odometer readings that should not be affected by curves or track lube for 'screatch control.' Peter
Maybe the R142 system improved on the R110A, because whenever the R110A went very slowly around the sharp curves, the station annoucement came on before the train entered the station.
Uh, yeah that's because the preset measurement for the announcement was set at that mark. If you were going at normal speed, it would start at that same point too.
Did it announce the Q and W where appropriate?
There was no R142 on the 5 this afternoon/evening. It must have done an AM trip and that was it. I operated in car 6646 while working the 2.
Does anyone know what routes will be using the new tunnel connection and when will it be opening?
The new service will begin on December 9th, 2001AD. The F will be rerouted to the 63rd Street Tunnel and the V will replace the current F on weekdasy 6am to 9pm, at which the G will be cut back to Court Square. The G will run to/from Forest Hills whenever the V is not running.
What is the benefit of doing this? I'm glad that the connection is finally done, but I thought there would be some great improvement of service. All I see is something very similar to what it is now, except G line riders will get the short end of the stick.
That's because MTA/NYCT neither has the guts nor the cars necessary to run three expresses-two locals (like I believe they should, anytime I take the Queens IND lines) during weekdays, to ease that mess at Roosevelt Av. and Queens Plaza.
I think it's also a problem of capacity. Between the (E) and (F) there are already 30 trains per hour (ie an average of one train every two minutes)
:-) Andrew
If they get rid of (or speed up) the timers (they are all unneccessary with the exception of the one around Grand Ave) they could increase track capacity to 40 TPH. Actually, it should have that now if T/Os all knew exactly how to approach the timers. But there's always a newbie who goes at 'em too fast and has to slow to 10 right in front (always see this at 63rd drive) thus slowing down the whole line. And what is up with those timers at Queens Plaza?! Totally unneccessary!
Ease the mess at Queens Plaza? In a way they are doing that by making the mess at Roosevelt Av even worse as people line up there because it will be the last point to switch for the F.
Yes, and why exactly would people west of Roosevelt want the F when the V goes the same place?
Because the F is an express in Queens, the V is a local in Queens.
And why would people west of Roosevelt want the F when the V goes the same place?
Four services rather than three to Manhattan. The G took up space that can now serve more people.
This sounds like bias against No. Brooklyn-Queens riders.
"This sounds like bias against No. Brooklyn-Queens riders. "
No. It isn't bias. It is simple ridership. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few; G trains were taking up space during the rush.
Have you ever ridden the G (Queens Blvd. segment) during the rush? How many cars were they running, and how packed was each car?
MATT-2AV
About two weeks ago, the TA stated that they are issuing a Brochure concerning the "Queens Blvd." changes. Has anyone seen it yet?
I've been working on the Queens Blvd line the last 2 weeks and I haven't seen no brochures. No signs on the walls. No handouts in the "take-one" boxes. Everybdy is saying Dec 10 except TA. And I wouldn't put much fate in the MTA web site. I like the paper info as opposed to the other kind.
Story in the Times.
I saw this number affixed to a pay phone at the 46th Street station. It's a transit information line. Dial #3333 from pay phones in the subway to get transit updates and stuff.
Do you still have to put in a quarter?
Nope, it's toll-free, just like 800 numbers.
Is it automated? Have you tried it before? Is it reliable?
Is it automated? Have you tried it before? Is it reliable?
Talking to yourself again, HUH
It is automated, and it will tell you about planned service changes.
*** TEST TEST ***
What is it you are testing?
Where have you been?
Oh no! I didn't study!
Umm why don't you test the "PREVIEW MESSAGE BEFORE POSTING" button and not waste space.
I haven't been there for a while, but at the north end of 28th Street there is an "abandoned" end of the platform that still has the old mosaic nameplate. I wonder if (now that the TA is sort of into the retro look in alot of stations and has ripped off the ugly "60's and 70's renovations") if they plan to ever do this to the Broadway line. The wall looks to be in good shape, and hopefully underneath the "renovated" wall the nameplates and top mosaics may still be in good shape. Seeing that part not covered over, makes me feel that it's a shame that rest of the station and the other stations on the line have all of that covered behind the "new" walls.
Good news for you!
For the last six or eight months or so they have been removing the 1960's or 1970's walls and uncovering the old BMT mosaics beneath. They are now cleaning and restoring the old stations, not just 28th but also 23rd, 8th, and Prince Streets. They're starting to shape up nicely.
So come on over and take a look.
:-) Andrew
Shows you I haven't been there for a year. I usually use the Lexington or 8th Ave. I'll have to get over there.
I used to go to Baruch and used the 23rd st or 28th st Station everyday. I used to always wish they would remove the ugly wall. Now I really have to get back over there and take a look.
While on the subject, did anyone notice when they were redoing the Canal Street-Manhattan Bridge Station, that for a while near the top of the wall, you were able to see the mosaic "B" in a few spots, I guess from when the station was called "Broadway" -- no way they could use those nameplates now, unfortunately.
I noticed while whizzing by 28th St. on a diamond Q that the wall about 60 feet from the northern end of the station is now gone. The 70s tilework went as far as that wall, then on the other side it was still original.
I noticed while whizzing by 28th St. on a diamond Q that the wall about 60 feet from the northern end of the station is now gone. The 70s tilework went as far as that wall, then on the other side it was still original.
Yeah, I've been wondering about platform length -- they actually extended the platforms southward in the Sixties, and by adding back the northern portion, I *think* they have platforms longer than the trains. Curious what they'll do.
Anyone have any wisdom here?
I just want to know why they wasted money extending the platform southwards, just to close the northern end. It sounds like their great "wisdom" again.
What's the story down at Rector? (Rector is the one Manhattan station with the so-called refrigerator tile still up.) The original tilework reappears at the south end of the southbound platform. At that point, the northbound platform is walled off and the original tilework is still visible at the closed section of platform, but it's painted over.
They ripped away the old 60,70's design and replaced it with a crack house design.
nycsubway.org and the boards were unavailable last Saturday from about 10-11 PM to about Noon on Sunday. Anybody (including our Webmaster) know what happened? The router would answer to "ping", but the site and its IP address would not.
Strangely, there was mention of it on Harry Beck's board, but nothing here.
Does it matter now?
Not a whole lot, just wondering. As I said, the question came up on Harry's board, but nothing here.
BTW, Private e-mail coming to you on another question.
I don't believe I've seen mention of the NYCTA's Second Avenue Subway Web site here. So here it is.
Nice find, Todd!! Are you skeptical that construction will actually begin in 2004? -Nick
Probably we never noticed it because it's on the LIRR site? Now THAT'S a curious thing ... Wonder if the northern terminus of the 2nd Avenue subway will be Speonk?
Speonk to NYC for a buck fifty? Thats a good deal :}
I have faith in our political sausage crafters ... if they build it, each seat will have a taxi meter with fare structures based on a drop and each 1/10 of a mile. This IS New Yawk after all. :)
www.lirr.org is a mirror site to www.mta.nyc.ny.us -- it's just easier for me to remember the former URL than the latter, so that's the one that I bookmarked.
But now that you mention it, I would encourage the MTA to have systemwide passes as does the MBTA in greater Boston. My MBTA Commuter Rail pass doubles as a fare card for the subway/streetcar/bus system (all inclusive, all you can ride). Indeed, it would be nice to pay once to ride LI Bus to the LIRR from Roslyn to Penn, then the subway to MNRR. Add in PATH and NJT, and that would be koool!
Heh. I *live* for irony (must have been working for Coffey and Millspaugh back in the brownstone at BAI years ago) ... and that "lirr.org" bit just hit all the buttons for me. :)
You'll LOVE my proposal then for staving off NYS sponsored crack houses to solve the fiscal shortfalls. I gotta call Joe Bruno and tell him about it. Heh.
Not even a mirror, Todd.
www.mta.nyc.ny.us, www.nyct.org, www.lirr.org and www.mta.info and who knows what else all point to the same IP address.
That's why you end up at the same entry page when maybe you'd like the URL to go straight to the NYCTA pages, or the LIRR page...
Interesting, Paul, thanks.
A while back I remember www.lirr.org worked, while the www.mta.nyc.ny.us didn't. Maybe some table was messed up somewhere.
There's been a lot of talk about subway t-shirts lately, so I'd like to know what's in your subawy t-shirt collection. Personally I have route map shirts for:
Chicago
London
New York
Philadephia
Washington
Mark
I have an A line shirt, bought last month at the GCT Transit Museum gift shop. Then there's my Independent Subway shirt I picked up at Branford in 1980. Somewhere I also have a London Underground shirt with a map of the lines in Central London.
Do Subway Series shirts count? I have a few of those as well, one of which has an R-10 image.
Subway Series with an R-10? From which World Series? 1949, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1955, or 1956 :)
My feeling was the R-10s never played a role in any subway series back then since they ran on the A. Well, you could take an A to 145th St. and change to a CC or D to get to 155th St. for the Polo Grounds or 161st St. to Yankee Stadium.
Not that I minded seeing an R-10 depicted on any sort of T shirt...
Or the A to Franklin and Change to the Shuttle
That too. I guess you could say the R-10s could get you there for most of the way.
No T-Shirts, but I do have a pair of London Underground boxer shorts.
Any chance MARTA will ever come out with a shirt? I've had a lot of fun riding the system during my flight layovers in Atlanta, and I'd love a MARTA shirt.
Mark
I doubt it, MARTA isn't exactly the first thing that pops into peoples' heads when they think of Atlanta, unlike NYC or London. Besides, it would be kind of a boring t-shirt, with only two lines on it.
Dear M,
You can access my web site at nycsubwayline.com to see most of it.
More will be on within two weeks!
Hope you like them!
Subwaygrrl
London, Chicago, Boston, Washington, and a real old (20years) from NYC
Dear Bob,
I'd love to know what that "real old" NYC shirt looks like?
Is it just the Subway Map? Just Manhattan, or the boros?
Thanks,
subwaygrrl
It was just basically everything in Manhatten South of 59th St, with the branches over(under) the East River. Had the stations on it and the line numbers, color coded in old IRT BMT IND Lines. Funny I got it in 82, and it should have coded the current colors.
I mentioned My map Shirts, I also have my Subway Series T and Sweat Shirt, My D Train, My Hong Kong one with a picture of both the double deck Tram and MRT, and a 20 year old one that says BMT Lines.Railroad ones are Pennsy with a GG1 and Santa Fe with a E8 War Bonnett, plus numerous hats
Moscow map (courtesy my daughter's visit there a few years back)
Washington map (another ancient one)
Several NYC shirts (no maps though)
And lots of streetcar and train shirts, of course.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If streetcars count, I have a Green Hornet shirt acquired at IRM in 1996.
Also my Market Street Railway(San Francisco) T would do. I think Septa and NJT On line stores have T Shirts. Oh I used to have a Grand Opening of the RTD(Now LACMTA) Red Line shirt, but my wife sent it to her brothers in the Philippine along with other t shirts I can t find
I'm trying to help out a buddy who needs either train or bus transit between Clinton & Oradell NJ. Is anyone aware of a way to accomplish this trip without connecting via NYC or Hoboken?
According to one of the trade journals, NJ Transit will be accepting bids beginning Dec. 2001 for Bi-Level commuter cars. No fleet size was specified. However, they did point out that they already have a contract with Bombardier for 130 Comet V cars + an opthin for 135 more. This includes 65 cars for NJT and 70 for Metro-North.
On what routes will they be used? I hope NJT sends some bi-level cars to the Northeast Corridor.
Mark
NJ TRANSIT has been finding that the original design and size of the bi-level cars cannot fit through the twin tunnels into NYC.
They will have to "retrofit" them to fit them through. I was received a very helpful link about this, titled "NJ TRANSIT's NEW ROLLING STOCK", with details of the Comet V and bi-level cars, including three designs of them.
Unfortunate to say I have lost the link and have not recalled the page since.
If any SubTalker is kind enough to repost the link here it would be great.
: )
Railfan Pete.
There is lots of NJ Transit train info at http://www.hobokenterminal.com
I don't know whether that was the site you had in mind, but you might try it.
I know that website and have learned a lot from it but it doesn't have an actual "deal" with the new Comet V's and Bi-level cars.
The page that I have visited before was located in the domain of "www.njtransit.com". with a good designed link stating "NEW NJ TRANSIT ROLLING STOCK". There it had all the info. about the new Comet V cars, contracting info., NTP (Notice to Proceed), and Board Approval information.
It also included three designs of the new bi-level rail cars, which will soon be funded when NJT finds a contractor next month.
I KNOW one SubTalker has posted that link, because that's where I got the link from.
If THAT or ANY SubTalker can relay the site to me please post it!
Thanks.
How funny...a chopped and channeled commuter train!
Mark
This is not unusual for "New Jerseyans". NJ TRANSIT has been having this idea for many months now. They were kind enough to place "TAKE-ONE's" on the ad panels inside the train describing NJ TRANSIT's new rolling stock for passengers. It also included a temporary TIMELINE of the issue also.
At that time, the bi-levels were not funded.
The initial order of the Comet V cars was 200, replacing a fraction of old NJT equipment, but I guess they've increased the order, maybe for Metro-North.
I've also heard from Michael Steinberg's website that Metro-North will reimburse NJ TRANSIT for the cost of the cars they are receiving.
I've also been notified that two Comet V cars would arrive here for testing in August 2001, a cab car, and a trailer car. I don't know where they are, nor I don't think ANYONE has seen anything.
If any expert NJT railfan can relay this with more detail, or a helpful LINK, (it was titled "NJ TRANSIT's NEW ROLLING STOCK based on the domain www.njtransit.com), I would appreciate it.
: )
Railfan Pete.
This is not unusual for "New Jerseyans". NJ TRANSIT has been having this idea for many months now. They were kind enough to place "TAKE-ONE's" on the ad panels inside the train describing NJ TRANSIT's new rolling stock for passengers. It also included a temporary TIMELINE of the issue also.
At that time, the bi-levels were not funded.
The initial order of the Comet V cars was 200, replacing a fraction of old NJT equipment, but I guess they've increased the order, maybe for Metro-North.
I've also heard from Michael Steinberg's website that Metro-North will reimburse NJ TRANSIT for the cost of the cars they are receiving.
I've also been notified that two Comet V cars would arrive here for testing in August 2001, a cab car, and a trailer car. I don't know where they are, nor I don't think ANYONE has seen anything.
If any expert NJT railfan can relay this with more detail, or a helpful LINK, (it was titled "NJ TRANSIT's NEW ROLLING STOCK based on the domain www.njtransit.com), I would appreciate it.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Amazes me sometimes how clueless our sausage crafters in Smallbany can be sometimes. Here's the state in dire fiscal straits because our elephantine swine in DC won't cough up compensation for NYC taking a punch in the face for their America ...
As you know, NYS is about to expand casino gambling throughout the state to make up for a shortfall and meanwhile, the MTA is doing all sorts of handwringing now that their budget has been significantly curtailed.
I have the solution ... through the miracle of Metrocards (similar to EZ-Pass in capabilities without the RF link), TV monitors could be installed at the end of each car with an RF link to NYS Lottery's Video KENO games. Install swipers and keypads so bored commuters can PLAY while they're riding ... I'd bet it'd bring in more cash to the system than the turnstiles ...
It might also serve to slow down the next step after the Casinos open up and then come up short in revenue, state sponsored crack houses ...
Anyone that plays Keno is possessed of a brain that would rattle around in a thimble.
Agreed, but our legislators think that gambling will be the cure for all the state's ills (speaking of thimbles) so official "NYS Crack Houses" can't be far behind. :)
I'd bet it'd work though and once our sausage crafters get wind of this idea, I'll bet it'll be law within 24 hours.
(Agreed, but our legislators think that gambling will be the cure for all the state's ills (speaking of thimbles) so official "NYS Crack Houses" can't be far behind. :)
I doubt it. How many NY State Legislators do you think use Crack?
Official state prostitutes is far more likely. Perhaps the 2nd Avenue could have a "parlour car" on every train.
Heh. Having worked the chambers, I'd say most. Where else can you find politicos saying straight-faced, "The reason why we couldn't come up with a budget in April, May, June, July or August was because of the bombing of the World Trade Center" and have NO concerns about getting re-elected? Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case. :)
A tax or a pox on second avenue drinking establishments.
A few months ago I was on a bus trip to South Carolina and I had to transfer at Washington D.C.(.)Since my connecting bus wasn't due in for another 2 hours(It would of been 3 if the bus wasn't late)I decided to sit down at this tv/seat.That's where my Idea comes in.In busy stations like Grand Central on the platforms there could be "Tv Seats".It would provide some entertainment to people trying not to miss a train that's delayed.
And it's better than craps tables in the middle of Grand Central.
I *did* think of that and then it dawned on me that TimeWarner would have a CANARY ... the "gambling" thing though is thoroughly in line with new State policy as the panacea to all of the city's financial problems and let's face it, cheesing off Donald Trump seems to be the "in thing" with the legislature this year. That "Keno" thing is pretty popular in the trailer parks upstate, strikes me as an untapped market in the city. Most of my comment here is intended as satirical, but then again wouldn't be the first time a comic strip came to life as law in this state. :)
False.How are kids going to ride the Subway if kids aren't allowed into casino's.Plus that is one awful joke!
Ah well ... good point. I guess we'll have to raise taxes. :)
There are slots in Reno and Vegas Airports, and the old Union Plaza Station in Vegas. So Security Guards keep the kids away
Back in business again then! :)
And who knows? Maybe we'll have "subway marshalls" with stun guns and light armament to keep the kids away from the keno slots. This might work after all. Heh.
I got friendly with a Deputy Sup. when I told him I withheld applying for Revenue Maintainer because I like the inspection work. Missing out on TVM repair: $ 1.50 one way.....double or nothing. Peter
Heh. We SHOULD be able to mount a handle to pull on the side and lemme see ... three spinning wheels. Get Slant-40's in all three windows, you ride for free. :)
The NYC Transit Museum needs to do what the Baltimore Streetcar Museum does; train people to operate its older trains so the general public can enjoy nostalgic rides on the NY system (particularly the Brooklyn Broadway El). Such a move would increase public appreciation of the system considerably.
Eric D. Smith
Are you seriously proposing that the museum train members of the public to operate historic subway equipment on an in-service subway line mixed in with regular subway service? Think about that for a second. I can imagine the liability issues and the stance of the train operators' union for starters.
I think he was proposing that they hire a person or people to operate the trains, not just allow anyone off the street to operate them.
The Transit Museum used to run the Standards every week-end after they were pulled from regular service. In 2001 there were four D Type trips ... that helped.
Now if they can only fix the Lo-Vs & finish restoring the Standards we would have three sets of cars !
Mr rt__:^)
Not to mention having a train of operable R-1/9s.:-)
There used to be a Nostalgia Train back in the late 70s. The surviving museum Triplexes and BMT standards would run every Sunday from 57th St.-6th Ave. out to the Rockaways or CI. I remember the ads, but never rode on any of them. I kick myself for not "catching the trains I missed".
If the Museum Fleet operates It Is only from September - April/May.
With a all A/C Regular Fleet who wants to ride in a oven in a Manhattan Subway Tunnel (El's and Open Cut Lines Ok).
I hear you, especially if the heat comes on accidentally.
Has anybody ever thought of running tracks over the Verazzano Bridge or building a rail tunnel under the Narrows? Such an idea makes so much sense that it hurts.
Eric Dale Smith
Has anybody ever thought of running tracks over the Verazzano Bridge or building a rail tunnel under the Narrows? Such an idea makes so much sense that it hurts.
Extending the R over the Verazzano wouldn't work. As has been discussed here before, the bridge isn't built strongly enough to handle the weight of subway cars, and given its height there would have to be monstrously long approaches, especially in Brooklyn.
A tunnel would work, but I don't imagine it would be a good idea because:
1. It would be a very long ride from Staten Island.
2. There's no evidence that Staten Islanders are pushing for the idea.
3. It would be very expensive, and there are higher priorities.
I think that was the point of ending the R line where it does end. I think a tunnel or bridge was planned there years before the Verazzano Bridge was even planned. When the Bridge was planned, I think Robert Moses nixed any kind of rapid transit on the bridge which would have made so much sense. It's all the mentality of the 1960's. They didn't even add walkways!
Everbody was car happy back then. They did not think about where all those cars were going to go to, so when traffic tie-ups started happening, they could not believe it. Gas was dirt cheap back then as well.
It was mentioned here a little while ago that the Verrazano can't support trains.
And of cource a tunnel under the river would be both expensive and take a while to construct.
If they were going to build a tunnel, they should spend some extra money and run it from SI to Manhattan. The hour saved for commuters would be worth the extra costs.
Actually I think that is true. Suspension bridges do not lend themselves well to rail traffic. I believe that is why the Manhattan Bridge has so much trouble all the time.
Suspension bridges do not lend themselves well to rail traffic.
The Delaware River Bridge/Ben Franklin Bridge has had trains running over it for 65 years and seems to be holding up OK.
Those bridges had one key advantage that the Manhattan did NOT for most of it's life:
REGULAR MAINTENANCE
True, but I don't think the trains that run over the Ben Franklin bridge were ever more than six cars and there are only two tracks on the Ben Franklin. The Manhattan Bridge has four tracks leading to two different subway lines. Trains that run on the Manny B are usually eight 75-foot cars or ten 60-foot cars, much longer than a train of six 67-foot PATCO cars. Trains that use Manhattan Bridge also run more frequently and the two northern tracks have always been more heavily used than the two southern tracks, while both tracks on the Ben Franklin were always used equally because they lead to only one subway line (they didn't always do so, I know).
A tunnel was included and mapped in the Dual Contracts but was not funded (1913).
Headings were actually built in the Hylan (!) Administration (c.1923)
The SIRT cars had certain BMT compatible features in anticipation of a BMT connection (1925).
R. Moses was supposed to have made certain that the Narrows Bridge would be structurally incompatible with rail transit.
Ona more practical issue, you would have to have a service more attractive than an extension of the R to dependably draw people from the ferry and express buses. Can you picture all stops from Tottenville to Times Square via local and tunnel?
A dual level tunnel, combined with the planned cross harbor freight rail tunnel, would be the only way today that a connection could be built.
Since the freight tunnel would have to go as far as connecting with the NY&A at 62nd St., the new subway tunnel could also be built that far and hooked up to the Sea Beach line east of the 59th St. station. That would allow for express service from SI to Manhttan via Brooklyn, though in order to avoid overburdening the express track, either the Sea Beach or West End trains would then have to run local with the R into Manhattan, which would result in something like sending the N train to Staten Island and running the M train full time via Montague St. and Sea Beach to Coney Island (or for Fred's purposes, the B train goes to SI, the N train stays on the Sea Beach to Coney and the M train goes there full time via West End and the Montague tunnel).
Can you picture all stops from Tottenville to Times Square via local and tunnel?
No, I cannot. The original design of the Bay Ridge part of the 4th Av tunnels allow the easy addition of 2 more tracks.
In any event, what's now the R would become the prime 4th Av express; Sea Beach would be permanantly all local stops to Coney Island.
The SIRT (B&O) Cars From about 1920 To 1960 Were BMT Standards In Preporation For the Narrows Tunnel From Bay Ridge to Staten Island.
The SIRT Was Operated By The B & O Railroad Up To 1970.
Staten Island Residents or the ones I talked to, since I do live here would want to see a subway system. They always say SI sucks because its lack of subway system. While no one they say has been against it that I have talked to but i know it wouldn't happen. I even have plans on what they can do if money wasn't a problem.
Also...the people who would like to see the North Shore Railway revived may have a problem. Where the NS Railway intersects with Morningstar Road in Elm Park, they are contructing new down houses on the slope across from the tracks. I really don't know it would damper the idea, to me it seems like it can be a problem. there would literally be NIMBY people since, it is really right in the backyard. If anyone wants to see pics of the "new development" or some of the North Shore railway how it is now. I'll be glad to take some.
I traced the ROW using regular streets on foot from Arlington to Port Richmond. That segment could be up and running in no time at all. Port Richmond-Saint George could take awhile.
Take some pictures. I would appreciate the ability to visualize what you are talking about in terms of development.
The rail tunnel for the past 75 years, the Bridge idea for the past 40 years.
As the s/b trains leave 59 Street, There is the ramp for the N train to go toward 8 Avenue and the R to go to 63 St.(?), there is a wall that was supposed to have beeen the start to a subway tunnel that would have went to Staten Island. The Railroad bought some subway type cars in anticapation of it happening. But there was some politics that prevented that from happening.
Plus it was proposed to run the IND from Church and MacDonald Ave down Bay Parkway and on to SI.
Phil Hom
It was proposed by the plans for the IND second system to build a tunnel to S.I., however with onset of The Great Depression the plans and funding were scrapped. The route would have been extended from the 95 St. station of the R line.
Are there any plans for any use of the old Rockaway Branch for the subway or any other kind of use? Every so often I would hear something, but I haven't heard anything for a long time. I know there are alot of NIMBY's there, but this area is starved for subway access. It just seems so obvious that it should happen.
Are there any plans for any use of the old Rockaway Branch for the subway or any other kind of use? Every so often I would hear something, but I haven't heard anything for a long time. I know there are alot of NIMBY's there, but this area is starved for subway access. It just seems so obvious that it should happen.
Ideas pop up from time to time. The most recent one called for using the ROW for JFK-Manhattan service. But nothing's gone anywhere.
Are there any plans for any use of the old Rockaway Branch for the subway or any other kind of use? Every so often I would hear something, but I haven't heard anything for a long time. I know there are alot of NIMBY's there, but this area is starved for subway access. It just seems so obvious that it should happen.
Ideas pop up from time to time. The most recent one called for using the ROW for JFK-Manhattan service. But nothing's gone anywhere.
Is this the line that has both structures built ON the ROW by neighbors and enough political clout that everyone has said "no way in hell could we reactivate it" even though it's supposed to be by far the most logical way to get from Penn Sta to JFK by rail?
If you count a paved parking lot next to an (off-ROW) apartment house near Union Tpke (?) and a bunch of school buses near Atlantic Avenue as "structures, yes."
IIRC, there is really nothing of consequence built on the ROW. It's the NIMBYs. They don't want the noise in their back yards.
I came up with a solution for that: enclose the ROW with walls and a ceiling. An above-ground tunnel, if you will. Only for the sections near houses.
I advocate connecting it to the Queens Blvd IND at Rego Park (tunnel already configured for this).
Connecting it at Rego Park is what they origionally sould have done. It at least would give the area in between some kind of subway service. If they don't have enogh capacity on the Queens Blvd line, maybe it could run sort of like the G. Not ideal but better than nothing. Or maybe they could use some of the extra capacity the 63rd St Tunnel will bring.
It would be a viable alternative to the Triboro Q53 along Woodhaven Blvd. As for the stupid NIMBY's, what they have now instead of an active RR is an active drug and burglary alley, hidden by recent forestation.
Most of that branch is being used for subway service now. The only portion not in use is the segment from Liberty Junction to the WhitePot underjump. There are four major stumbling blocks to using this ROW.
1) First, most people who live adjacent to the ROW have encroached onto the MTA property. It could take years and much $$$$ to move them after all this time.
2) There would need to be environmental impact studies after a plan for use was submitted. That could take years and $$$$
3) The TA will not have sufficient rolling stock to support a new line or new service. The R-143s will barely make up for current service changes and the R-160s are destined only to replace retiring rolling stock.
4) Finally, what do you do with the line once you get to Forest Hills? 63rd St. was built to alleviate congestion at 53rd St. Even if you run the 'new' line through one of the existing East River Tubes, what then. Do you jam up 6th Ave, Bway or 8th Ave with a new service?
About the only practical use would have been north-south (JFK to LGA) but airtrain has taken care of that. I can see airtrain using Jamaica as a stub terminal with a northern extension as the final leg.
What would you do with the new line, as long as you raised the issue?
I'm not sure there are the multiple encroachments you suggest. When I walked the route a couple of summers ago, the only encroachments I saw were the school buses at Atlantic Avenue and the parking lot at Union Tpke. I suppose I might have missed some, but a lot of the ROW isn't really conducive to encroachment. In Forest Hills, the ROW is in a cut or steep natural valley. There aren't any private abutters through the park. South of Jamaica Avenue it's elevated or embankment. Still the two encroachments I saw are significant and could be difficult to remove.
Also, the lack of rolling stock and tunnel capacity to Manhattan are not really major issues, since this ROW is best suited to use for LRVs providing cross-town service in place of or in addition to the current bus service.
That leaves the real problems, NIMBYs and, as you mentioned, $$$$$.
I always thought it would be a great way to connect the area between the Queens Blvd line and the area around where the a train turns onto the ROW, especially for the local service inbetween to be conected to the rest of the system. There is no subway service in that part of Queens. But the very people that it would serve are the NIMBY's.
Nonstop Airtrain Service Howard Beach To LGA! The Airtrain Is Elevated Into Howard Beach. Have Airtrain Continue North to Rockaway Blvd, Decend to LIRR Row Then North To Whitepot Northwest To 63 Drive, Northeast On 63rd Drive, West On Queens Blvd, North On Junction Blvd/94th Street To LGA.
Stops would Be Placed at:
Howard Beach (A)
Queens Blvd/63rd Drive (E)(F)(G)(R)(V)
Roosevelt Avenue/Junction Blvd (7)<7>
LGA Marine (Delta Shuttle)Terminal
LGA Central Terminal
LGA Us Air/Us Air Shuttle Terminal
LGA Delta Terminal
THE NIMBYS SHOULD REMEMBER THAT TRAIN SERVICE ONCE RAN HERE. ANYWAY THEY ARE PROBABLY A MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE TRAINS RUNNING HERE. AND IF NOT JUST TAKE II BACK DOESNT THE TA (LIRR DIVISION) OWN IT?
MTA owns the property. But people live in the area and unforunately they have clout in the courts to slow down any building of transit in their neighborhoods. After all there were some suits taken by local residents to stop the building of the AirTrain. They lost because the route was built over airport property and over the Van Wyck.
It's very similar to whenever they would try to divert trains through the lower Montauk Branch in Queens. This was done occasionally when they were working on the main line and they would send Hunterspoint trains to Long Island City. Residents around Glendale would almost lay on the tracks to try to stop it. This is another underused line. The service they had on it before the new LIRR coaches was kind of interesting though. (Stopping a train at a grade crossing, with a sign and calling it a station). The service was however so inconvienient that it could never have grown to anything more than it was. This line could have been or could be a great way to add sevice to any area that has very little rail transportation.
But we have to unfortunatly remember the resisednts of Glendale would probably lay on the tracks again, if this was even proposed.
I don't think the "stations" were meant to be anymore than they were just there. I think they were first operated by the RR that first opened the line. (South Side?) When the LIRR took over the line they still had to maintain them but they let the them disappear. The closest thing to a "station" I've seen was (Outside of Richmond Hill) a metal box on its side at Fresh Pond. With a hidden staircase from the street.
Glendale did however at one time have a very tiny station building that I believe burned down.....but that was way back in the 20's or so. Speaking of Fresh Pond, I actually sued that station a few times and when you would start going in at the entrance, everyone at the street would look at you like you were trespassing. Most people didn't even know there was a "station" there!
I know where you're coming from. That stairway was behind (I think) a car dealership and I guess a person passing by would think you're trying to break in from the back. Probably people that would have taken the train there couldn't find it. There weren't any signs there.
They tried to make it as difficult as possible and as inconvenient as possibe so no one would use it. Then they could abandon all the "stations" because of low ridership. For any one who remembers it, do you even think a woman alone would have attempted to use the old station at Fresh Pond, even if she knew it was there.
You're telling me! I remember the first time I rode the LIC line. I was looking for Penny Bridge, Fresh Pond, et al. It wasn't 'till we were nearly at Jamaica that I realized that those little pauses we made from time to time were those stations! No signs. No announcements. No real platforms (unless you count a pathetic, barely noticeable little patch of concrete a "platform"), just about nothing to tell you there was anything resembling a "station".
The one exception, sort of, was Richmond Hill. There were platforms there, with actual starcases to the street, and sort of kind of a transfer to the (J) train.
The LIRR obviously doesn't want it. There's gotta be a way to use it for subway service!
:-) Andrew
[I was looking for Penny Bridge, Fresh Pond, et al. It wasn't 'till we were nearly at Jamaica that I realized that those little pauses we made from time to time were those stations!]
Here's a picture of the former entrance to the Fresh Pond Station. Unless you knew where it was beforehand, it was almost impossible to find it.
Yeah that little gate to the left was the entrance (about 2-3 feet wide) to a maze of walkways to a stairway that took you to track level which was strewn with garbage. It was a quick way to Jamaica though, the few times I used the "station". If they would have had normal schedules, it would have been very convienient. I think it is a great loss that that line is no longer used for passenger service, be it LIRR or NYCT. It would bring service to an area that has very little rail secvice.
Back when they were considering what to do with the 63rd St. connection, the Montauk branch was seriously considered as a route for a semi-superexpress into Archer Ave (there would have been a station or three along the way.
Senator Alphonse D'Amato engineered some federal legislation which absolutely prohibited this. Talk about NIMBYness (and, apparently, political clout)!
Nonetheless, this is one r.o.w. which everyone needs to keep their eye on in that it connects to quite nearly everything, particularly the old Rockaway r.o.w.
Back when they were considering what to do with the 63rd St. connection, the Montauk branch was seriously considered as a route for a semi-superexpress into Archer Ave (there would have been a station or three along the way.
Senator Alphonse D'Amato engineered some federal legislation which absolutely prohibited this. Talk about NIMBYness (and, apparently, political clout)!
I had heard that Glendale residents killed off any potential subway use of the Lower Montauk back in the 1970's. That would have been before D'Amato's election to the Senate.
Whenever they even reroute Hunterspoint trains to the lower Montauk branch for trackwork on the mainline and the like, Glendale residents would almost "throw themselves in front of trains" They actually have laid on the tracks! It's a shame that a few people can ruin it for the greater masses.
Which is probably why the LIRR will always use it for passenger (or at least deadhead) service. The moment they cancel those two passenger runs and two deadhead moves, they will probably never again be able to resume passenger service no matter how necessary it is.
I don't understand why, since the new trains don't have stairs, they didn't build some crude stairway to access one door to open. It couldn't have cost that much. Now, like you said, it would be hard to reinstate local service, now that it is gone.
Trains on this line use standard railway coaches. The steps are attached to the coach!
I remember on the Babylon line before it was elevated, or had high level platforms for the M1s.
Once the train left Freeport, all of the doors were opened, and the vestibule platforms lifted, reveling the steps to ground level. I would stand on the bottom step, holding on to the hand rails, as the train swept into the station.
ET
I remember on the Babylon line before it was elevated, or had high level platforms for the M1s.
Once the train left Freeport, all of the doors were opened, and the vestibule platforms lifted, reveling the steps to ground level. I would stand on the bottom step, holding on to the hand rails, as the train swept into the station.
You can still see this type of arrangement on Metro North's Waterbury branch. The vestibule stairs on the Bombardier coaches are closed when the trains are at Bridgeport, with its high platforms (they stay closed on the occasional trains that stop at high-platform Stratford). The conductors then open the stairs for the low-platform stops at Derby-Shelton, Ansonia and Seymour, close them for high-platform Beacon Falls, open them a final time for low-platform Naugatuck, and finally close them for the high-platform final stop at Waterbury.
They don't use the old cars with the steps anymore. That is one of the reasons they closed the stations. The old trains are gone.
As I remember the schedule for the Montauk Branch, It was just for 5-6 trains each way mornings and nights. Trains would be diesles coming from the non-electrical zone on Long Island going to LIC. The rest of the day I guess it was used for freight service.
I think that late at night the freights can be seen running on that line. They are not allowed on the main line which is used for the electric MU's to access Penn Station, but if there is a derailment on the Montauk Branch, how do the freights get around the obstruction?
Not only that, what about rail replacement, regular signal work, and the like?
I think the Montauk is double tracked so in a pinch they could have all traffic running on one track while they fix the one track..
And if there was a derailment blocking both tracks? What then?
Why "Golden rail" bus service of course. :)
Wait for a freight train? If you read my earlier posting, I was wondering how a freight train using the Montauk branch in Queens would get around a derailment blocking both tracks since they are not allowed to use the LIRR main line from the area around Jamaica Station to Long Island City. How about it? I do not think that the police would be too happy about a civilian riding a freight train in these times, especially if said civilian did not work for the railroad and had no permission to ride. Say that you were the supervisor in charge of moving the mainfests, and you had to get them around the blockage - how do you do it? What routes do you use? Let me know what the usual contingency plan is for this sort of thing.
"And if there was a derailment blocking both tracks? What then?"
Same thing you do everyplace else in the world.... You WAIT!
Elias
Wait for a freight train? If you read my earlier posting, I was wondering how the freight trains using the Montauk Branch in Queens wouod get around a derailment blocking both tracks via alternate routes, seeing as to how they ae not allowed on the LIRR main line from the area around Jamaica Station to Long Island City. How about it?
If they don't single track around the derailment site, The freight doesn't move!
Right, but there looks like there are some alternate routes in that area. If so, which ones get used? Hey, I'm not looking for anything classified as secret, just what would the LIRR do in that kind of situation. If there is no other alternative except to wait for the repairs to be done, so be it. However, would the tracks on the main line get pressed into service for a short period of time? What about moving some freight tonnage across the Hell Gate and then back down through the Connecting RR to get around a block? If that sounds too far-fetched, then let me know. In medicine, there are reports of people who operated on THEMSELVES and removed organs like adrenals and kidneys AND SURVIVED. This is NOT recommended by me or most other doctors, but it does happen. Now, what does that have to to with railroading? Well, sometimes the unusual situation arises that is dealt with in an unusual manner. Granted the railroads will not generally do something completely crazy, but what would be done in some situations like the one I mentioned? Again, if it cannot be done, fine, I can live with it. How about it?
It was two trains in the morning and two in the evening. One was local, other express, But both afternoon trains made some stops. Only one in the morning though.
Do trains at least pass by hre going elsewhere? I rembebr back in the mid 90s when they talked of closing Penny Bridge, etc.....but I was under the impression that through service would reamin, just not stop at the little stations anymore...
And of course it's unfortuante that proper service (now NONE) was never provided there..
I think the trains still run through there, like two or three a day. It's just that those tattered intermediate stops have been abandoned.
:-) Andrew
I think you're right, but it's not many.
[I don't think the "stations" were meant to be anymore than they were just there. I think they were first operated by the RR that first opened the line. (South Side?)]
Penny Bridge and Haberman were on the portion of the line built by the Flushing RR in 1854 - this line continued northeast from Haberman closely following what are now Maurice and Garfield Aves. to Winfield and Flushing.
Fresh Pond, Glendale and Richmond Hill were on the portion built by the South Side in 1868 - this line continued southwest from Fresh Pond to Bushwick.
The connection between Fresh Pond and Haberman was built in 1872.
Someone here mentioned that this ROW is depressed in Forest Hills. Could someone tell me where I might look for this unused ROW in forest Hills? I'd be most interested.
Thanks!!
That's not the way I remember it. IIRC, they lost because the theory of their case was that the choice of route was motivated by racism.
I don't know whether you think that's an absurd idea. Anyway, the judges thought so.
I remember a while back our Mayor was against the idea of having the airtrain going to Howard Beach. As I saw it, he couldn't do much because PA ran it via airport property. The branch to Jamaica is running over the Van Wyck which more or less is not a city highway.
Actually, a subway line could run at 20 minute intervals during the rush hour and 30-45 minute intervals during off-peak times. That would barely make a dent in the track capacity issue and still improve service.
I've wondered this myself. I gather the connection to the Queens line also allows one to have terminal trains at the outbound mezzanine level, as well as a direct connection (and built station!). This sort of Rockaway shuttle certainly makes more sense.
My point exactly! Sort of like the G train never getting into Manhattan. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
A great Rockaway Park line , connecting to the "A", "J", "E","F","R" and future "V"
Actually, the wooden trestle over the Montauk Branch is gone. There are a few washouts along the way as well.
63RD street was built along the lines as it was conceived,to be a super express line to Forest Hills. The MTA killed the project in the 8O's by cost overruns,shady deals and the city fiscal crises. By 1985,the project was suppose to be finished,along with the 2ND Avenue line and the Archer Avenue/Southeast Queens line.As we all know,none of that happened,as the money problems[and fedreal government crackdowns]forced the MTA to revaluate the ''1968 Plan For Action'' routes.With that done,the Southeast Jamaica line was dead,the 2nd Avenue line was dead and the 63rd st line ended at 21st Queensbridge[the tunnel continued to 29th st at Queens Plaza.
Anybody help with this?
I believe up untill the 1930s the LIRR had an el portion east of the present day East New York Station, which included an el station at Warwick Ave. Any info on this, for example what was the distance it ran and when it was torn down and why? Most important, does anyone have any photos of this section of el?
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I think that the LIRR was on the surface in that area. I know that it was not elevated out by Crescent St but actually operated on the surface of what you know now as Atlantic Ave. It was put underground about 1940 or so.
Karl
Thanks for the reply. If you look in Ron Ziel's Victorian Stations of the LIRR, there is a picture of an elevated Warwick Ave Station! Also, I was told that there was an el LIRR after ENY station but it was torn down after a short period of time. If anyone has any info on this or photos I sure would appreciate it.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
The LIRR in Brooklyn is still elevated between Bedford Ave and Buffalo Ave., I believe. You can see this for yourself. The only station on that portion is Nostrand Ave. No tickets are sold there.
Jailhouse Doc,
If I'm not mistaken, there were 2 sections of LIRR el on Atlantic Ave, the present day existng one and another that came up out of the tunnel east of ENY. This section had a station at Warwick Ave (if you have a copy of LIRR Victorian Stations by Ron Ziel it has one picture of this station)
My question is this: Does anyone have any more facts about this el? And does anybody have any photos of this portion of the el?
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Yes, there was an elevated portion east of East NY.
Here's a picture of Warwick St. station.
From City Line to east of Lefferts Blvd the LIRR was running on the surface. 4 track line with a fence running along it with 2 lanes each way for car traffic along Atlantic Ave. The line was depressed under Atlantic Ave about 1939 as part of its grade elimation project. As far as the rest of the line went, Im not sure what portions were surface, elavated or underground. I think some pictures can be found in the different books about the LIRR.
Click here.
Now THAT site (Bob Reynolds' site...) had a VERY interesting photo in it....
The LIRR Flatbush/IRT Atlantic Avenue complex. Not only is the tunnelway connection at the Manhattan end of the IRT shown...complete with tracks indicated....but a SECOND IRT-to-LIRR connection at the south end of IRT Atlantic Avenue!!!
That link made alot of sence to it. I remember as a kid I would pass by on Flatbush just south of Atlantic and I would see an old skelton of a tressle coming up out of the RR yard that was over there and abruptly stop at Flatbush. I could never figure out what was that for. Then I heard about the BRT 5th Ave El that passed by there and heard rumors that the LIRR at one time had service going across the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row. Now I have a better picture of it all.
I used to work in that area and saw that EL fragment all the time.
I hadn't realized that it is not there anymore and am kicking myself for never taking a picture of it.
So am I!
Bob Anderson and myself recall seeing an old steam loco and tender sitting up on the remnants of that strucutre (over the LIRR Carlton Street yards) as late as the early '70's.
Anybody else remember that?
BMTman
No.
The way that the structure looked, it looked like it couldn't hold up much. And there was no tail or ties on it either. Then again, maybe I was there after it was taken down.
Why is training in the B division longer than in the A division? What happens if a train operator switches divisions for the first time, do they have to be re-trained?
Thanks for any info in advance,
B63Mike
The equipment is more varied (assuming a Redbird is a redbird is Redbird) including SMEE Vs non SMEE. Plus there are more locations to see.
Training is longer because the b Div is bigger and it has the R44/R46 trains which are unlike anything in the system. With those exceptions (and now the R142/R143, which again, are unlike anything else), verey other car class is basically the same, subject to minor idiosyncracies; if you can operate a redbird, you can operate a 32, 38, 40, 42, 62 and 68 with no problem.
When you change Divisions, you go back to school car to become familiar with your new home and the equipment they run
I know the story of how New York's subway was once three separate systems, the IRT, the BMT, and the IND. What I've never been able to sort out is which modern lines were part of which system. I'm not a New Yorker, so I'm not terribly familiar with all the line number and letter designations, but I have a pretty good feel for the line colors from my occasional trips to NYC. So if everyone could please phrase your replies in terms of the line colors, I would greatly appreciate it.
Mark
There's a happy map right here that should do the trick:
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1959_b.gif
Each trunk line is designated a different color in Manhattan. (6th Ave is orange, 8th is blue, Lexington is green etc. But in Brooklyn, the lines have all been interconnected, so it's not as easy as to say orange is IND, etc. A good rule of thumb with a few exceptions is to say that all the numbered lines were the IRT. The origional IND would be 8th Ave(Blue) 6th Avenue(Orange) Fulton in Brooklyn(Blue) Crosstown Brooklyn (Lt Green). Broadway(yellow) was BMT. L line(Gray) was BMT. Most of the lines in Brooklyn that weren't the IRT(#lines) were the BMT origionally, with the exception of the G(Lt Green) and the Fulton subway(blue). It's confusing if you are not familiar with it, but I hope this helps a little bit.
IRT: all numbered routes & 42nd. St. shuttle. Flushing line east of Queensboro Plaza was one shared with the BMT.
BMT: Eastern Division J/Z/M/L lines, Broadway (yellow) line, Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, Culver (from Ditmas south), Astoria (once shared with IRT) and the Franklin Shuttle.
IND Entire 8th Ave, 6th Ave (north of Grand St.) Crosstown, Concourse, Fulton St and Smith St. lines.
The Rockaway line was IND after takeover from LIRR in 1956. The elevated Liberty Ave A line was once BMT until 1956, but became IND after the A line was extended to connect with it. The Culver line elevated portion was BMT until 1954, when the Smith St. line was extended to connect to it. The Archer Ave. and 63rd. St. lines were built after consolidation in 1967.
The map should say it all
No it shouldn't. The old abbreviations are useless and will only serve to confuse people.
The BMT and IND are so intermingled, it's pointless to use them, especially when the north side of the Manhattan Bridge was opened.
Check the FAQ!
Article at the NY Times here http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/15/nyregion/15TRAN.html
It's ironic to note that a 45% increase in ridership still doesn't help NJT in some way or other.
By the way, what federal agencies and companies aid NJT for their "payment plan" daily?
<< It's ironic to note that a 45% increase in ridership still doesn't help NJT in some way or other. >>
It is not ironic at all considering the Whitman rewarded their increased ridership with operating subisdy slashes during most years of her tenyer, only to give to the highway fanatics to build things like the AC Wynne Tunnel.
The first of CONNDot's new fleet of 25 P32 Genisis DM locomotives are being painted at GE's Erie shoppes in New Haven McGuiness Colours. Also VIA Rail Canada just got the first of its new P42 Genisis locomotives in a lively new Blue Green, grey and yellow motif. They are basically b/g on top, then a small yellow stripe, a big grey stripe, another small yellow strip and then a b/g lower part. There is a yellow swoosh in the grey at the front of the locomotive. Sorry I don't have a pic.
The Genesis loco are beautiful units. Powerful, too. 4500+ horses per unit. Compares favorably to the AEM-7's 7,000 horses. If I am not mistaken, Amtrak was able to push its NY-Boston trains up to 100 mph with these locos prior to the switchover to electric service.
You obviously have good taste in locomtives. :0)
I hate P42's. They have absolutely NO acceleration and only 4200 (or 4000) hp. The EMD's use a 2-cycle engine that revs much faster than the GE's prime mover. The F40's also weigh less and are geared for a realistic 103 instead of 110. On most lines Amtrak never used P42's on the Shore Line. It was electrified by the time the F40's left the New England Div.
I would much prefer to see VIA F59's and ConnDoT FL-9AC's
Yet more proof -- as if more was needed -- that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think they're godawfulugly.
Setting that aside, I must be missing something on the power issue. How can 4500 hp "compare favorably" to 7000 hp?
Heh. 6000 (10,500 peak) for the SD-80MAC's and now word is 8000 operating and 14,000 peak for the 100's soon to debut. Man oh man, I feel like finding a place to put up a picture of the cylinders opened on an SD-80 to just shame the hell out of anyone here with a really hot AUTO that they're proud of. Cylinders are getting to be as big as houses lately. Heh.
But not quite as large as jet engines. Yet.
Have you see the size of the four cyl.s that power your average city bus theses days ? They're not to sabby either.
Mr rt__:^)
No offense, bro ... no. I have this aversion to busses ... takes days to lose the "eau de bus" from the rear section and it seems to permeate everything, leaving folks to know how you travelled. Kidding aside, I have seen some of the motors and can imagine they're pretty large.
Went looking for pictures of the H power plant and can't seem to find any pictures of them out there. I guess when I have some time, I oughta scan in some pictures I took of it while we had the outers opened up. It's one impressive block of metal in there. :)
At the M-N event they had one of them on display with a head off.
Best event of the day was when they tiped a box car over, on purpose, then used a couple of cranes to right it.
Mr rt__:^)
On purpose ... yeah, right. :)
"On purpose ... yeah, right"
YES RIGHT !!
I was there at Harmon Open House when they were simulating what they do when derailed cars are righted up and back on their trucks.
We were a safe distance away when they started to lift up this old battered PRR box car. It started to tip and tip and tip and before you know it, it fell on it's side and shook the ground. The kids loved it and no one screamed in horror. The worst was a little cloud of dust being kicked up.
They they righted it up and lifted it up and rolled both trucks on either end and let it down. Applause from the audience to show what daddy does for Metro North !
It's a shame there won't be an open house for a couple of years because Harmon Shops will undergo a massive modernization.
The tipped it......on purpose.......I wuz dere !
Bill "Newkirk"
Wowsers ... love to see them tip a hippo. We have to settle for COWS up here. And you don't wanna be around to use the sidewinder when they catch on. :)
I was waiting for the folliage train when they were using that crane to pick up that box car. That car looked horrible anyway.
Heh. I'm sure the car-tipping event is part of the explanation as to the appearance of the car. Ah, reminds me of the good old union days where we'd play bouncy-bouncy with automobiles. :)
"Wowsers ... love to see them tip a hippo"
They should have tipped over an FL-9 ! The ground shake would have given the boys at the US Geological Survey the fits !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. Would have probably tipped the crane trying to lift it. :)
"Heh. Would have probably tipped the crane trying to lift it"
Now that would have been the highlight of the open house.
Bill "Newkirk"
At the recent M-N Croton-Harmon Open House they had one of the NH Genesis on static display. I have a photo of yours truely at the controls.
Mr rt__:^)
Thurston, old compatriot ... you got an FRA/railraod CERT? Welcome to the club then! Only way you can get on "live steam" and even today, NFG ... glad you got the shot while you could. Now back that puppy up and bury it somewhere on the lawn before they COME for you. Heh.
We took as much time as the kids getting our photos taken in that seat < G >
Mr rt__:^)
Heh. When we did the Voorheesville fest a couple of years ago, we opened up the sides and everything on the SD80MAC and let the kids sit in the seat too though there were few takers. I guess all the Operation Lifesaver paraphernalia we set out scared them off. :)
I have a photo of [Thurston] at the controls.
The cab must be pretty roomy if you fit inside. I think you may run out of leg room trying to fit into the cab of an AEM-7.
Bob, the room is about the same ... so I looked just like you at the Controls ... including the smile !
Seriously, there is ample room in the cab, but there wasn't much knee room.
Mr rt__:^)
Many of us got our pictures at the controls (another guilty party).
BMTman
Ain't no big thang ... at Halloween, EVERYBODY wants to dress up as Darius McCollum ... moo! :)
I wonder if Metro-North and ConnDOT units have different gearing and/or electricals to make the units accelerate faster out of stations??
Amtrak, when they first got their 500 series (hoods) and 800 series Genesis units tried themout on the San Diegans out here in California. Due to the frequent stops, the units could NOT handle schedules. It was for this reason they decided on the EMD F59PHI's for the San Diegan (now Pacific Surfliner) and the Washington state services.
Southern Pacific, back in the 1970's, reassigned their ten EMD SDP45's to the San Francisco peninsula commute service. When they did so, they added some circuitry (somehow "altering the field excitation" or "field shunting", whatever that means, comes to mind...) They had a switch on the control stand so they could be set up for commute or regular service. When they were running on commute trains, even pulling an eight car trains with two heavyweights and six bi-levels, they took off out of stations like a f***ing rocket. The train would start moving before the prime mover even started winding up! The acceleration of the SDP45's was outstanding...it even put the Fairbanks-Morse Train Masters to shame, and those were the cat's meow in commute service when it came to getting up to speed.
One thing I will say about Amtrak's newer Genesis units -- they did finally come up with a rather attractive looking paing scheme on them. The old r/w/b striping was starting to look VERY old (of course, it WAS old, designed in the 70's....)
I think I remember reading on another forum that Metra will soon be getting some Genesis units. Anybody know if there's any truth to this, and if so, what the timeline is?
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't know if they actually ordered them....they did test an Amtrak unit recently. Someone mentioned in one of the newsgroups that it failed en route and had to be rescued by one of Metra's F40's.
Not a good sales presentation for GE if it was true!!
Heh. I actually like the looks of the Genesis units a lot, and have even been in the cab of one. But if their accelleration is as bad as rumored, then I'd prefer seeing more F40's pulling Metra trains.
Of course, the ideal solution would be full electrification of Metra's lines, but I wouldn't expect that happening anytime within the next million years.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I have ridden behind both the Genesis units at Amtrak and the "Pepsi Can" (500-519) P32BWH's) and I can vouch for the terrible acceleration from a station stop.
The first time I rode the P32BWH it was on the old Orange County Transportation Commission commuter train from San Juan Capistrano to Los Angeles -- the cars were Caltrain galleries with an Amtrak ex-Metroliner cab car. The train was NEVER on time when it had the P32BWH assigned to it....that lasted a couple weeks, and it was back to good ol' F40PH's.
The 800's were tried on the San Diegans when they were new too. There's a few stations on the line that have uphill grades when leaving (southbound out of Irvine, northbound from Del Mar, San Juan Capistrano) and trains would just creep until they crested the grades in front of them when the 800's worked the trains. While not very steep grades, they were long.
They also tried a combination of engines on longer trains -- an F40 at one end of the train for the starting acceleration, and the Genesis at the other end to keep the speed up once it got there.
The Genesis units did have one heck of a unique sound, I actually did like listening to that on the passenger trains!!
I was headed to Staten Island today and got off the 7 at Queensboro plaza and got an N across the platform. I got the 7:30am bus to Flushing but as usual with traffic we ran late, and I didn't get on the 7 till 8:45am. The N ride through the tubes wasn't too impressive thanks to a W ahead of us. So I took the N down to 42nd street, where I got a Q across the platform. But the Q moved slowly, thanks to the slow W ahead of it. I bailed at 14th and got the very same N I got off! When we arrived at Whiehall it was 9:31am and I wasn't going to make the ferry (the next one is at 10am) so I stayed on the N. It was funny when I got back on the N at 14th, the T/O and this guy were talking and they saw me and I told them "the express is not very express". He said just take the N. I knew I'd miss the ferry when I didn't get ahead any at 14th. Anyways by Dekalb the car emptied out and me and the T/O who was very nice had a good conversation. He guessed I was trainbuff. They let a W ahead of us at Dekalb. So we had to wait a minute. I was telling the T/O that the N should be express and go over the bridge, and how I'm tired of all the "special treatment" the W gets. The T/O also agreed with me about the R68's, he liked the R40s the best (just like me). Every T/O I've spoken to is not a fan of the R68's. Their main complaints are about the braking. Slant R40 on the other hand seem to have excellent brakes and can stop on a dime. I took the N to 59th street where we just caught up to that R ahead of us on the local. I thanked the T/O and caught the R to 86th, where I got the S79 bus to Staten Island.
But the Q moved slowly, thanks to the slow W ahead of it.
See what a slow W does?
BTW, was the T/O door cab open, or did you knock? I wonder how you start conversations with T/Os.
During our railfanning excursion on Oct. 25th, we struck up conversations with two different T/Os just by talking about trains amongst us as we were about to leave the terminus. In both cases, the T/Os would say, "You sound like railfans", and that's all it took. The fellow on the M wound up asking us if there were more than three notches on his controller because he could count as many as five. He even demonstrated while stopped at a station. Wayne explained that there are in fact three on today's trains. We even pointed out the subtle difference between an R-40M and an R-42; the T/O wasn't aware that R-42s ran on the M.
The fellow we had on that diamond Q was great. We talked nonstop as we whizzed along the Brighton line, skipping stations and dusting locals. He piloted that train beautifully, stopping smoothly and playing the timers expertly.
Here's a trick question which the TA likes to pull on promotional and refresher tests: The master controller actually has 4 positions: coast, switching, series, and multiple.
You're right - coast is easy to overlook. I just did. I stand corrected.
Sometimes they just hear you...I was railfanning with a friend on the 6 once leaving Pelham Bay Park, and the operator just opened the cab door, and said that we were engaged in some "serious subway talk."
He kept the cab open for us all the way downtown, talking the whole way.
The door was open.
Then I take it this was a 32 or a Slant. Operators on 68s seldom leave their door open, although it has happened.
Contrary to popular belief, there still are some 68s, and even 68As on the 'N', more so on the weekend when the 'W' is cut back and uses less cars.
It was an R40 Slant.
Next time, from 74th Street- Roosevelt Ave-Jackson Heights, take the G train to Smith-9th, take the F one stop to 4th Ave, then the R to 86th Street. I know your original intent was to take the ferry, but that might have been faster to get to Bay Ridge than what you did. No offense to Sea Beach Fred (by avoiding the N completely)!
Then I'd have to wait for a 7 local (I took the express). Next time I'll probably just take the ferry. Even if you miss it, the ferry is still quicker.
Is there any way they can fix the brakes on the R-68, R-68A subway cars so that they perform better?
#3 West End Jeff
Today I have a near complete line assignment.It will be near complete until the whole SI thing is finished out.Until then here how it goes
**T 2 Avenue local
All times:Local from Shea Stadium to Grand Street.
Nights:Extended to Seaview Avenue
U 2 Avenue express
All times exept nights:Local in the Bronx,Express in Manhatthan from Gun hill Road to City Hall
Nights:Local from Gun hill road to 138 street.
**X 2 Avenue express
All times exept nights:Local in Brooklyn,express in Manhatthan from 125 street to Seaview Avenue.
Rush hour:Some trains run express in Brooklyn peak direction only.
Nights:No service.Use T for Brooklyn Service.
*Y 2 Avenue local
All times:Local from 125 street to Charleston.
*:Complete service subject to change
**:Late night service subject to change.
If SI is sold to NJ then the Y will be a new commuter rail service.
HAH!
I saw an R26/28/29 (2) train this evening heading northbound to 241st Street-Wakefield. Explain why the head signs said (2) Willets Point-Shea Stadium!!!!!!
Since WHEN did the (2) ever shuttle ANYONE between Mets games and Manhattan???? And why didn't it get any Subway Series 2000 treatment?!??! HUH?!?!??! They day that happens, a (2)train, a NON-CORONA FLEET IRT TRAIN, going to Queens, I WILL MOVE OUT!
LMAO this was so much of a joke when I actually saw that...lmao, it was so funny...I just hadta tell yous guys!
Cleanairbus
BTW, those R33s starting to be converted already to work cars, #8958-8959 and #9018-9019 have been spotted at Times Sq around 2:30pm...with a weird yellow car in between those pairs. Add that to #8885 and any other R33-turned-work-cars...
Lazy motorman did not check the roll sign. Troublemakers can change the sign on the last car, which becomes the lead car going the other way.
More like train arrived late and TO had no time to change it.
LMAO!
Cleanairbus
Simple. It might have been a roll sign mistake.
Roll sign "mistake"???
Hahaha, when I was about 8-9 years old, the R-21's were brand new. And dontcha think friends and I didn't take delight in cranks those roll signs to see what was up there??? We'd NEVER leave them in the right position...usually 'cause one of us was on another's shoulders just to REACH the crank, and halfway through our escapade, we'd see a conductor or motorman showingup, and we'd split. Somehow we always managed to slam the hatch shut, so they didn't notice what we were up to!!
The yellow car is a signal dolly. The door open up and there a cran inside to unload signal along side the tracks. I been meaning to post about the R33's that are being used as work moter, they painted them with yellow stips on the front of each car.
Robert
At around 2:30pm at the 79th Street/Broadway station, I saw a southbound R-62 #2 train. I didn't get the car numbers, but I know they were Lenox cars. Anyone else saw something like this?
Did it have the red sticker "#2" plasted on the front? -Nick
i seen it yesturday 11/15/01 running northbound. there is also a set of R-62A with 2 route signs on them in E.180th.
there are about 7 of them. dont be surprised.so it @ 238 again this moring.5 @180st and 2@238st
until then
r142man
What was it I have posted??? It is that TA is working hard to put as many operational cars on revenue service. Got inside and under my first R62....#EP003....during lunch today. I was advised to take a good look at the group box and compare it with the units on the Redbirds. If it has wheels and a motor, an empty seat is waiting for a SubTalker. There is always a surprise in every box of CrackerJack. Peter
Not to be picky, but EP003 is actually an R127, the motorized units that pull the garbage trains. When I first saw them in 1992, it really bugged me that even the garbage trains had newer equipment than the 2 and 5 trains.
Only a 'True Disciple of the Faith' could have pegged EP003 for what it is. 'R127' is scrawled over the portion cover in 'witness paint.' What caught my attention was the seamless sides with two central doors on each side. Took a look inside...there's a metal warehouse desk inside and limited seating. The group box for DC motor control underneath has a lot less junk to fix than the Redbirds and all four corners are equipped with trips to travel IRT and IND lines. It was in good shape...sucker was in for brake shoes. Brought back memories of yesterdays subways. At home #2. Peter
I think it's pretty well known here that the EPs are either R-127s or R-134s. The reason you might have been confused is that the car bodies of the R-127/R-134 were built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries. By the way, the R-127 stenciled on electric portion shutter was put there for railfans so they can identify unfamiliar rail equipment. It's not meant for employees.
And I need all the help I can get!!!! You know I wouldn't know one car from another. At least Kawasaki chose GE for propulsion control and after getting into a Redbird group box with two blown cards and an arc flash that scarred 3 big contactors....the R-62 group box looks a lot easier to handle for scheduled maintainance. The arriving R-62 caused a big stir this morning because the T/O lost his shoes over the switches and sat stuck with 3 flatbeds in the barn. 'Jumping the car' would have been a lot more fun than the 'make busy' assignment for today. Next subject: what predecessed the group box. God Bless, Peter
I saw "R-38" stenciled on the electric portion shutter on the first car of an A train as it pulled into W. 4th St. last month. To be honest, I was in curious as to why it was there, although it looked pretty cool.
Couplers are assembled in a section of the overhaul shop that rebuilds components and then is sent to where the cars are rebuilt. Since there are differences in draft gear, this insures that the right component is placed on the right contract car. Similarly, if you look at the side of the truck on any car, you'll see a 'truck #'. There is a specific range of truck #s for each contract car. They, too are not necessarilly interchangable.
What is an EP?
EP is the designation for the newer class of work motors also known as R-127s or R-134. They are numbered as:
R-127 EP001 through EP010
R-134 EP011 through EP018
I got a better one recently I saw a R62A, assigned as 3, going to 241-Wakefield, A R-62A signed as a 3 going to East 180th street Another 2 R62A going to 241-Wakefield all in a row!!I was riding a southbound Dyre Avenue, I was wondering what the hell was going on!!!!
Just heard on the channel 5 news that a woman was pushed in front of a 6 train at Grand Central about 2 hours ago. The woman has survived and the man that pushed her is undergoing physciatric evaluation and is hospitalized.
This must've messed up service, when I was in the 42nd st vicinity changing from a W to a 7 I heard someone say there was no uptown 1,2,3 service, but this was around 6pm and was not on the Lex line.
From the video they showed it apperears the train that struck the woman was an R142A.
It's a reminder to stand away from the platform and if possible hold onto a column, to lower the chance of getting pushed in front of a train.
Someone told me yesterday that she saw someone walk across the tracks at 50th Street IND (upstairs -- four tracks). How often does that happen?
I've seen that sort of Darwin candidate once or twice in the last 20 years.
Conductor Darwin says, "watch the closing doors, bing-bong-splat" ... Back in my day, I can't count on both hands how many times I pulled the handle because some A**hole was crusing for babes on the tracks. :)
I didn't get the high score though, and my sympathies to those who DID ...
One of the few nights we are out having dinner with friends and we run smack into this whole incident at Grand Central Terminal.
It happened at Grand Central about 8pm Thursday night. We were there at 8:15pm, headed to the 4/5/6 uptown platform when we encounter the National Guard and Transit staff. They used yellow "Caution" tape to rope off the stairs and told folks to take the train downtown to 14th st and switch to an uptown train. At the time all the uptown 4/5/6 trains were running express and would skip the 42nd st stop going uptown.
We took the local since the express was packed. We saw an empty uptown 6 train at the 33st station. At 28st and 23st you saw riders milling around as the tower personnel made announcements about alternative ways of getting uptown (".. You may also go upstairs and take the M101, 102, and 103 buses...").
At 14th St/ Union Square we got on the uptown 4 train. This time the 23st and 28st platforms were empty and the local train was still sitting at 33st.
Once we got to GCT the conductor said that they had been told to start stopping at 42st. Once the train started out of the station you saw that the 6 train on the uptown local track was partly in the station. That's when we thought someone might have fallen onto the track.
The news reports say that a homeless man push a woman onto the tracks. It says that fellow riders helped apprehend the suspect. I don't recall anyone saying that the 6 Train hit the women so I think her injuries resulted from the fall. Last report said she may have a broken neck.
Another new report last night said that when this happened someone stopped those escalators that take you out of the subway and into GCT. They stopped it without saying anything to the people ON the escalators so several folks lurched and injuried themselves.
If there were witnesses (which there must've been if they have the man in custody), then we can just save the trial and psych evaluation and just execute him now. What is the point of evaluating this guy, to find out that he's a homicidal nutjob?
Be careful on those platforms, the larger the city, the more wackos who inhabit it.
Just saw the news teaser on wnbc. It was an R142a. 72xx
There was some sort of police activity at 66st. I was in it all, I was at Times Square, and the hoards of people were waiting on the platform for service to be restored, so I went to the A/C/E platform, but I wasn't the only one trying to do that. I turned around and waited on the Uptown 1/2/3 platform. Finally, the announcer said service was restored on Downtown Local/Express and Uptown Express. I was on the first restored Uptown Express train, which was a 1 train routed up the express. I was really scared as we went by 66st, cuz as we entered it, the A/C or fresh air fans turned off, and we went slowly past it. Nothing to notice out of the unusual except a turned over bucket in the middle of the platform by some police officers. We then turned to the local track entering 72nd street and I was on my merry way to 86. Another chaotic day on the 1 train...
It seems like alot of people were tranferring to the A/C/E as the corridor was pretty crowded. When I got off the N/R/Q/W I headed up the stairs toward the ramps down to the 7 where I had to fight my through, as most people were headed to the right (toward the A/C/E).
Two cars of the trainset were 7232 & 33
41 Year old woman pushed infront of a train by homeless EDP man. NJ State police patrolling the station arrested him. According to WNBC TV, Military Police are on the subway platforms "securing" the station, probably to help calm nerves. Another tradgedy.
Correct. There was no uptown or downtown service on the 1/2/3. I was on my way home from the job fair at MSG today. I got a 3 train at Penn Station. Everything was fine until we got to 96th St. I got off to transfer to the 2 for the rest of the trip home. After my 3 train left 96th St, I saw another 3 train sitting on the downtown express track with no passengers and its doors shut. I also saw a 1 train on the downtown local track leaving 96th St going uptown. An announcement was made that there was no 1/2/3 service in either direction due to police activity at 66th St. So I took the M96 bus to Lexington Avenue and got the 6 there. I switched to a 238th St bound 5 train at 125th St which ran local in the Bronx and to 241st. This was during the 6:00 hour. Had this been a couple of hours later, I could have also faced a double whammy with the delays on the Lex that resulted from this horrible incident.
I just saw on Ch. 7 Eyewitness News that the woman is in the hospital, but she is not in any life-threatening condition. The wacko who pushed her off the platform is fortunately in police custody.
The Police action at 66 Street was an Antrax scare. There was No service between 96 St and Times Square from 5:45PM to 5:55PM then restored all service Exept Uptown Local service then at 6:11PM service was stopped again between 96 to Times Square with the same police action. My train was ordered to discharge at 96 Street but after I cleaned out the train they put me back in service as the first Downtown Local to leave 96 Street. Over on the Lexington Line that happened around the area of 7;30PM to 8PM where they pulled Power from North of 14 Street to south of 51 Street.
This is getting way out of hand. It's time to seriously plan to put safety barriers with sliding doors on platform edges at the busiest stations (as in France).
Also a massive publicity campaign to educate riders to stand away from platform edge.
"as in France". Only the newest of the Metro lines, which is hardly the busiest, has platform doors. In London only the newest extension of the Jubilee line, again hardly the busiest, has the doors.
The doors on the Jubilee line also allow the station to be air conditioned. The cool air stays in the station and out of the tunnels.
You'd have to standardize door spacing and widths on all equipment, for starters.
Plus we have to start dealing with the problem that so many mentally ill--seriously ill--people are roaming the streets and subways. If it doesn't stop, more people are going to get hurt.
I'll probably get torched on the charge of liberalism for this, but serously, we need funding for the proper care of the mentally ill. I have family members (including my wife) who work with these populations, and seriously so many slip right through the cracks because the state wants to do as little as humanly possible. It has to stop.
--Andrew
Can't do it on the B division (except in the "East"). You have 75 foot cars, you have 60 foot cars. The doors do not berth at the same place. You also have a train of 67 foot cars in the mix.
Who can't do it? I could. I'm sure any engineer worth his pay check could. You can solve any problem given enough imagination and resources.
Are you one of those that said subway trains can't be air conditioned?
Nice idea yes, but even if it could be done, can you imagine the expense of doing that at all the stations. There are a lot more important projects in the system to spend that kind of money on.
I don't mean to put down an excellent safety precaution, but {besides money and work} look at the drawbacks:
The rolling doors on this screen would be yet another thing people would take the liberty to lean on when it opens.
If something goes wrong in the station, the people have to be able to climb down to the tracks, and walk through them. At most stations, there's a blue light {emergency exit} just before and after each station. This screen would make these lights useless since nobody from the platform can use them.
Another thing. Think of how bad the glass doors would look after a few weeks. Scratches, dirt, etc. Remember: THIS IS NEW YORK!
Another thing. Think of how bad the glass doors would look after a few weeks. Scratches, dirt, etc. Remember: THIS IS NEW YORK!
Well, they'd have to make them out of whatever scratchiti-resistant glass they're using for car windows.
But I'd be curious to know how the London ones are holding up after a couple of years. London now, in my observation, has worse vandalism and graffiti problems than NYC. Do we still have a SubTalker in London at the moment?
The blue lights mark the locations where power to the third rail can be interrupted. Emergency exits are typically illuminated with yellow lights. Most stations don't have them, and many are located between stations.
Mark
On Monday night, a young woman who works at my firm was kidnapped from the Ferry Av PATCO station, sexually assaulted and murdered. This incident has been the lead story at all of the Philadelphia Media outlets and has caused a lot of fear amongst the riders of the line, especially females. As you guys in the NYC area know, this shit happens all too often now. Please tell your female friends and co-workers to watch themselves, as they are leaving any station to go to their cars, or walking home, and please be alert for any strangers lurking around. If they sense anything, STAY AT THE STATION, CALL POLICE, or CALL A FRIEND, or FAMILY member to come pick you up or escort you to your car, home, etc. The Life you save may just well be your own.
The lesson is be ALERT! A clown will sneak up on you at any time.
The crazies are out. Yesterday, A Woman Is Pushed Into the Path of No. 6 Train at Grand Central Station by "an emotionally disturbed man." Shades of the Kendra Webdale incident in 1999.
Soon, we're told, the redbirds will be history and the #7 will get cars from other IRT lines. How will they do it? After all, the #7 connects with the BMT only at Queensboro Plaza, and no other IRT line.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Fortunately the other IRTs have connections with the BMT-IND lines too. I don't know what the usual route is, but some folks here do.
:-) Andrew
207th IND yards to the Broadway IRT el line.
Concourse Yard IND -> Jerome El IRT.
Junius/Livonia on the Canarsie BMT / Livonia IRT.
They need operators qualified on both divisions, and engines with trip stops usable on both sides
From Julius/Livonia trains could also transfer to the IRT at E180 St in the Bronx. It's not done much anymore. But it has been done with the cooperation of ConRail.
>>From Julius/Livonia trains could also transfer to the IRT at E180 St in the Bronx. It's not done much anymore. But it has been done with the cooperation of ConRail.<<
I am not sure what you mean by that.
The elevated line at Junius/Livonia in Brooklyn is IRT. Why would they have to come all the way to E180th in the Bronx? There is no transfer capability between railroad and subway at E 180th. Such a connection has not existed for decades.
From the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch it would have gone up the old NY Connecting RR, across the Hell Gate Bridge to the Bronx. Gone up ConRail to Union Port Yard where it made a connection to the old NY, Westchester and Boston RR. Now known as the Dyre Ave Line at E 180 St. Last I heard the connection was still there. Maybe TA severed it by bulding a bus depot there.
Also years ago there was a 1 track connection from the L line to the LIRR just north of New Lotts Ave. The track is gone. But the gate and the road bed is still there.
The old connection from the NYW&B is long gone and I mean long gone.
In fact a portion of the right of way just south of E 180th has been dismantled although the structure is still there. I hear they intend to remove that as well.
I guess yo9u haven't been to the Bronx in ages DouceMan.
BTW - the Coliseum Bus depot is west of the right of way.
The single unit WF R-33s have dual tripcocks specifically for that purpose. Here's a question: are tripcocks part of the truck assembly, or are they mounted directly to the carbody?
They are on the truck. The carbody bounce can cause a trip, if it was carbody mounted.
The single don't have two tripcooks. I saw afrew in CIY while in school car and while work there over the last year. The tripcooks are part of the truck assembly.
Robert
Don't the R-33 singles have tripcocks on both sides of each truck? They're used for transfers from the Flushing line to CIY.
There are a few points where the IRT cars can switch to the BMT/IND lines then switch to the IRT at Queensboro Plaza.
They'll do it the same way they've been getting IRT cars on/off the Flushing Line for as long as it's been around.
One possibility:
Train leaves the #4 line between Kingsbridge and Bedford Park, goes down ramp to Concourse Yard. Travels down the D line to 47/50th. Reverse and head to Queens. Over there, reverse again and wind up in the BMT 60th Street tunnel. Then up to Queens Plaza and switch onto the #7.
Another possibllity:
Train comes off the #1 line between 207/215th Streets, down into 207th Street Yard. Travel on the A/F lines all the way to Coney Island. Then travel via the Q back into Manhattan, through the 60th Street tunnel, up to Queens Plaza, switch to #7 line.
I'm sure there are other possibilities...but it isn't an easy move...it does require reversing at least twice or more to do so. It probably would take a crew the better part of a work shift if done in one continuous assignment.
I've always felt there should be some track connection between the (7) and either the (4)(5)(6) or the (1)(2)(3). Maybe the latter could be accomplished somehow if and when the (7) is extended to Javitz Center. Or maybe not.
:-) Andrew
The 7 had connected with the rest of the IRT because prior to 1942 it was connected with the IRT 2nd Avenue El.
Right, except that I don't think it was called the "7" back then, but simply the Corona/Flushing IRT (and the Astoria IRT) (with the BMT suatting on both lines as well.)
:-) Andrew
Actually, the designation "7" belonged to the Fulton Elevated/Brighton BMT line in those days. The BMT (and later the BMT Division of the TA) used number designations until the early 1960's, I think.
Yes, that's correct....the first BMT cars that got letter designations were the R-27/30's in 1960. It was a strange sight, after seeing the "1" train on the Brighton all of a sudden become the Q, QB, or QT!
The IRT #7, or course was the Flushing line...and the cars of those days (R-12,14,15) also had an "8" up there -- for Astoria. This was later used as the designation for the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue elevated. Can anyone confirm as to whether it was ever used on the trains on that line -- seems like once the R-12's went up there, they always used "Shuttle" in the end route indicators.
The roll signs on the R12's never had the 8 on it so it always said Shuttle.
Only the maps showed it as 8.
The R12s, 14s and 15s had the following front route roll signs; as a teenager I turned and recorded them back in the 1950s:
1-Broadway; 2-Broadway-White Plains Road; 3-Broadway-Lenox; 4-Lexington-Jerome; 5-Lexington-White Plains Road; 6-Lexington-Jerome; 7-Flushing; 8-Astoria; 9-Dyre Aveue.
Of course, some of the words were abbreviated.
This is not the complete route sign listing; Shuttle and No Passengers, and perhaps a few others, were also on the roll signs; I've done the above from memory for the moment.
If the original signs remain in the cars of this class at the New York Transit Museum, the above informtion can be verified and expanded.
Are you sure about your #6? Where is the Pelham line?
Also, were the 7th Av lines (particularly the 2 and 3) really labeled as Broadway and not 7th Av?
I think Joe just made a simple typo when typing in all the information.
The #2 and #3 were listed as 7th Avenue on the car end signs.
Here's how they read in all the photos *I* took in my youth...
1-BROADWAY
2-7th AVE-BRONX
3-7th AVE-LENOX
4-LEX-JEROME
5-LEX-W P R
6-LEX-PELHAM
7-FLUSHING
These were on the R-17/21/22's. When the R-29's came along, there was also:
5-LEX (without the benefit of anything else...)
When the R36WF's came along, there was only 7 line on them, none of the other routes!
7-FLUSHING
7-WORLD'S FAIR
In later years, cars had signs switched, added, etc. There is a photo of an R-29 in the Greller subway car book showing that a rollsign with 9-DYRE added to the car. Having cranked those signs many times when those cars were new, I can attest that reading was NOT on the signs installed in the cars when brand new; this one must have been switched.
One slight correction -- the original "5" signs on the R-cars said "5-LEX-W P ROAD".
If you look in Greller's subway car book, almost every "5" train has the newer signs. The shot of 9552 on the bottom of page 102 shows the older version. Apparently, the "5-LEX" had to be added when the switch was made from 241st to Dyre or 180th in the mid-1960's.
Pretty close! Joe Korman's site has a scan of the entire roll.
I concur with that info, Joe....did the very same thing as you when the R-17/21/22's were new in my youth (I'm going on 51 now...)
In addition to the readings you mentioned (No Passengers, Shuttle), the cars also had for a ROUTE marker "Thru Express" ("Thru" on top of "Express"). I don't think I ever saw this used. And, they had "Special" too. I don't recall much else.
The 2 and 3 actually said 7th Avenue, not Broadway, in the photo's I'm looking at. (I think you made a slight typo on the 6 though, that was 6-LEX-PELHAM.)
The Thru was on the 1, when there were actually 5 Number 1 trains back in the late 50s. 1-Brighton Express 1-Brighton Local 1-Broadway-7th Ave Express 1-Bdwy-7th Ave Local 1-Bdwy Thru Exp, which if I remember skipped all stops from 96th to 157th St
Just as a side trip - the IRT "#1 BWAY THRU EXP" also skipped all stops between Dyckman/200 and 242, running up the center track of the Broadway el ... and I think it skipped 191, 157, 145 and stopped at 137, 125 and then skipped 110 and 103 and finally stopped at 96th ...
I and my dad used to take it up until 57 every Friday evening. Then it skipped all stops between 96th and 157th.and was local the rest of the way. I never saw it switch over to the middle track North of Dykman. Maybe it did later on
Interesting ... I can vouch for it doing it mid 1960's and I heard from others here that back in the 40's and early 50's it did as well when the Lo-V's ruled. I do remember getting on at 231st northbound to 242 to catch one and the time saved was worth the trip in the wrong direction.
I do not remember the Hi or Lo Volts on the 3rd Ave El prior to the tearing dowm south of 149th. I think they had the original cars Composites 2000-2159 built in 1903 by Wason St Louis and Jewell
I have to claim no knowledge of what was prior to chopping it off at 149th ... I was born in 1951. However AFTER that time, I know that they ran LoV's and Steinways (WF cars) on it with one trailer car in the middle. The el cars were gone from there by the 50's. The WF's were usually lead and tail and the middle cars were whatever happened.
A pretty typical consist is shown here: clickez-vous
Actually, that photo is NOT quite the "typical: consist.
Usually the trains were set up with a couple of the WF Steinways facing north, a Lo-V trailer, and two WF Steinways facing south. Of course, I say "usually" but there were a handful of extra Lo-V motors so some of the WF Steinways were replaced by them as the linked photo shows. (I know 5628, 5633 were a couple of the Lo-V motors, there were at least half a dozen of them or more. The trailers all seemed to be 4900 series.)
Yep ... and stop being so damned picky - Brighton Bob is watching. Heh.
Tis week it's your turn to receieve all the picky, pickies!!!
And I won't pull Brighton Bob's chain....after all, I did a lot of train watching of his line from the pedestrian bridge north of Beverley Road station when I was a kid!!!
Heh. Yeah, I guess I deserved it. I never noticed when I rode it that there were so many WF's on there - the door windows were unique and I was used to seeing more of the standard LoV doors, at least in the 60's up to the end ... and I rode that puppy a lot since I lived right on Webster. And yes, there was almost always WF's on the north end (but not always) but I don't remember seeing many on the south motor.
Got to ride the last run fan trip though and was AMAZED to see a loV that was shiny copper on the outside on the north motor position for that run. Never saw it before or after that ride either.
Picky Picky Picky
Uh oh ... I'm getting this sinking feeling that I'm playing guess co-host to Unca Fred here - if Regis shows up, I'm gonna flip. :)
All we need now is Dorothy Lamour.
You lived on Webster? I lived a couple blocks up the hill from Webster just off Fordham Road! I went to cardinal Hayes 1964-68....we're just about the same age. I wonder if we ever crossed paths int he ol' neighborhood?
Ya never know - I lived at 204th, across from Honark's Pigway. :)
Went to DimWitt Clinton, then good old "F.U." ... home of WFUV-FM.
F. U.? Not Felix Unger?!?:-)
Fordham ... wiseass. :)
>>> Fordham ... wiseass <<<
For similar reasons, when I attended Purdue University, I never saw it referred to by its initials.
Tom
Fordham University.
And I know where you lived - right where the movie "The Wanderers" was shot. And yes, same years for me in screwl ...
"A pretty typical consist is shown here: clickez-vous"
That 3rd Avenue El was a beautiful beast, I say we should put it baack up again.
But then, I'm afraid it would look the same anyway (sigh)
ET
Els are "old fashioned" ... think "personal hovercraft" as the wave of the future. Heh. In all sincerity, one thing I've mentioned before that I would personally like to see and would also be rather practical would be a 42nd St crosstown using a looped monorail above 42 St. The chances of that happening are pretty much equivalent to NYC building another el.
Els these days are completely different, just check out Bart and Miami to name a few. Very quiet compared with turn of the 20th century structures. All in concrete
Yeah, I've seen those "Jetson style" water slide world thingies. Nobody does concrete ribbons like the Germans though. Still, I want my personal hovercraft. :)
Until 1955 when the 3rd Ave. el ceased running in Manhattan, rolling stock consisted mainly of MUDCs (Multiple Unit Door Control) cars - which had been rebuilt in the '20s from open-platform equipment - and the BMT Q-Types - which had received trucks from retired IRT composites. The composites, IIRC, were gone by the early '50s. By the time the el was cut back to the Bronx, the MUDCs were scrapped and the Q-Types sent to the Myrtle Ave. el. I suspect the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs might have been too heavy for the elevated structures in Manhattan.
Even the Qs were too heavy for local service, and this was even with the maximum traction Composite trucks. They were used only in express service, carrying passengers when running on the center track, and had to deadhead in the other direction.
I do not remember the Hi or Lo Volts on the 3rd Ave El prior to the tearing dowm south of 149th. I think they had the original cars Composites 2000-2159 built in 1903 by Wason St Louis and Jewell
The end roll signs on the R-12's most certainly DID have "8" on them. It was "8-ASTORIA". As they have done on other occasions, they could have used some black tape to block out the word "ASTORIA" and used the "8" only when those cars were on the elevated inthe Bronx.
Check out the following -- a scan of a real roll at Joe Korman's site:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rollsigns/irtend.html
I seem to remember that I once saw a train on the 3rd Ave. el actually signed as "8" on the front end. It had the "8" rolled down just a bit so that the "Astoria" legend couldn't be seen - meaning that most of the word "Flushing" - the legend underneath "7" - was visible above the "8". I guess this was one motorman's personal idea, it certainly was never standard practice.
If there was a train on the 3rd Ae El with a frontsign saying 7 or 8, then someone didn't correct the sign. El service to Flushing and Astoria ran via 2nd Ave El.
The "8" designation was only the remaining Bronx portion when the R12's replaced the LoV's in the 60's ... and some of them did have an 8 for the bulkhead sign though I don't remember ever seeing that on any of the cars. Usually the rolls were run all the way to the ends so the white showed though the north end would sometimes display "Gunhill" since that was available.
Of course, the route signs on the roofline (the R12's looked like the R10's with the funky windows and the route signs up top on the sides) would be completely random as to what displayed after the kids played with them. Wasn't hard to know where it was going though since it didn't really connect with other lines directly.
Didn t it actually connect at Gun Hill, and at one time the trains actually ran up to 241st. Before the shortning of Bx only lines
I only remember it running between Hub (149) and GunHill, never north. Used the lower level on the White Plains line at that stop where you went upstairs to go either way from there. The trackways brought the lower level tracks up to meet the #2 train but that was used only for layups at 239/240 yard. Back when the 3rd Avenue El Manhattan portion was running, I do believe it went all the way to E241, but not after the cutoff. The Bronx Park spur closed after the upper truncation and I do remember when that stopped running. (this is not to be confused with the OTHER Bronx park spur off the White Plains line, there was one on Webster Avenue too)
I was talking prior to 53 or 54 when it ran the full length. I will see if any of my books have anything on the history of the 3rd Ave L
YES ... I'm told that when it actually ran into Manhattan, some trains originated as put-ins at GunHill while the others ran out of 241. I *think* it was a local/express issue ...
>>> some trains originated as put-ins at GunHill while the others ran out of 241. <<<
I remember 3rd Avenue El trains running to 241st Street, and the 1948 Subway map shows the El superimposed over the White Plains Line from Gun Hill Road to 241st Street.
Tom
That's three years before I landed on the planet. All I can tell ya is what I heard from guys that worked the line that normal service was indeed from 241 but there were put-ins at GunHill also. I *think* those ran as locals but can't remember for sure. I vaguely remember something about 233 St also but don't remember what the deal was ... of course I wasn't around at the time so can't say so with any real authority.
Looking at a IRT map on page 56-57 Undersidewalks of Ny. The 3rd Ave ran all the way up to 241st. Either Local or express it does not say This is a copy of the 1924 Map There was also a cut off just south of 149/3rd Ave where the 3rd Ave, Joined the White Plains Line.
The August 1949 morning rush hour service load levels for the Third Ave Line were as follows:
E 241st St (thru express) 10 tph (along with 15 tph from the Lex)
Bronx Park (local-express) 25 tph
129th St (local) 7 tph
City Hall 21 tph
South Ferry 21 tph
N.B. service levels may have been greater when the Bergen Bypass was still in use.
Lots of Service!
. . . on a Greek airbase, BBC reported this morning.
They were posing as a bunch of tourists, clicking away at all of the nice airplanes. They claimed that they were hobbyists, airplane spotters.
What a ridiculous idea for a hobby, collecting photos of airplanes. I've never heard of such a silly idea; and neither have the Greeks. No wonder the Greeks don't believe them. These "tourists" are still locked up while the Greeks scratch their heads, trying to figure out if anyone, even a Brit, could possibly be so daft.
Now, of course, if they had been taking pictures of railroads, . . .
I normally don't do this - replied to your post about that over on Harry's place. But I figured the "think before you click" message behind what I'll repost here on subtalk is a sane bit of advice since making law enforcement "twitchy" is NEVER a good idea. From "Other side of the tracks" ( http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/view.cgi ) here's what I posted over there:
You *DO* realize that the War Department can now go beyond seizing that film? NOW they can put you away and toss you up in front of a military tribunal who will hang you, THEN give you a fair trial.
As much as I enjoy pictures at an exhibition, ain't taking any for a LONG while myself. I was even asked politely to remove some photos from my website that included interior shots of me at the controls of various trains. When staring down the downside of being a "buff" these days, I keep my distance.
Fortunately, I grew up at the tail end of RADIO and can still conjure up images in my mind without benefit of chemicals (an amazing feat considering all the drugs I did in the 60/s and 70's) and am quite satisfied with that.
With the media fanning up the flames of "whoops, the TERRORISTS DIDN'T SCORE, now that's
OUR job" ain't no time to be anywhere NEAR the rails unless you can whip out a ticket. :)
America seems to have lost its sense of humor.
Side thought since I'm in need of sleep and need to stop posting to do so ...
Given the realities these days (along with a completely clueless media whipping up NONSENSE instead of focusing on reality) about the only railfanning you can safely hope to have lately (since Bin smokin' and his buddies NEVER do the same trick twice [in other words, it's safe to fly and live in tall buildings unless you believe MSNBCNN] it would only be logical that some dumbass plot exists to use trains as part of a future episode and therefore, profilers EXPECT something to happen and have ramped up the "twitchiness") would be visiting museums safely off the mainlines if you wanna take pictures. The "museum cars and power" are no longer ON the mainlines and potentially provide a risk, and thus should be safe to bag pictures of.
But man, oh man ... if the Selkirk yards are but ONE example of the bunker mentality, all I can say is "WOW!!!!!!" Trespassing on ANY railroad property is a genuinely BAD idea right now. And I've heard that from my buddies, who thanks to their cable channels, are packing heat. Best not leave a car parked on a crossing now, these guys got BAZOOKAS. :)
On the subject of bunker mentality, I think a true appreciation of the state of mind of the US administration today requires reading the following in its entirety.
"By the authority vested in me as president and as commander in chief of the armed forces of the United States by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the Authorization for Use of Military Force Joint Resolution (Public Law 107-40, 115 Stat. 224) and sections 821 and 836 of title 10, United States Code, it is hereby ordered as follows:
Section 1. Findings.
(A) International terrorists, including members of al Qaeda, have carried out attacks on United States diplomatic and military personnel and facilities abroad and on citizens and property within the United States on a scale that has created a state of armed conflict that requires the use of the United States armed forces.
(B) In light of grave acts of terrorism and threats of terrorism, including the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, on the headquarters of the United States Department of Defense in the national capital region, on the World Trade Center in New York, and on civilian aircraft such as in Pennsylvania, I proclaimed a national emergency on Sept. 14, 2001 (Proclamation 7463, Declaration of National Emergency by Reason of Certain Terrorist Attacks).
(C) Individuals acting alone and in concert involved in international terrorism possess both the capability and the intention to undertake further terrorist attacks against the United States that, if not detected and prevented, will cause mass deaths, mass injuries, and massive destruction of property, and may place at risk the continuity of the operations of the United States government.
(D) The ability of the United States to protect the United States and its citizens, and to help its allies and other cooperating nations protect their nations and their citizens, from such further terrorist attacks depends in significant part upon using the United States armed forces to identify terrorists and those who support them, to disrupt their activities, and to eliminate their ability to conduct or support such attacks.
(E) To protect the United States and its citizens, and for the effective conduct of military operations and prevention of terrorist attacks, it is necessary for individuals subject to this order pursuant to section 2 hereof to be detained, and, when tried, to be tried for violations of the laws of war and other applicable laws by military tribunals.
(F) Given the danger to the safety of the United States and the nature of international terrorism, and to the extent provided by and under this order, I find consistent with section 836 of title 10, United States Code, that it is not practicable to apply in military commissions under this order the principles of law and the rules of evidence generally recognized in the trial of criminal cases in the United States district courts.
(G) Having fully considered the magnitude of the potential deaths, injuries, and property destruction that would result from potential acts of terrorism against the United States, and the probability that such acts will occur, I have determined that an extraordinary emergency exists for national defense purposes, that this emergency constitutes an urgent and compelling government interest, and that issuance of this order is necessary to meet the emergency.
Section 2. Definition and Policy.
(A) The term "individual subject to this order" shall mean any individual who is not a United States citizen with respect to whom I determine from time to time in writing that:
(1) there is reason to believe that such individual, at the relevant times,
(i) is or was a member of the organization known as al Qaeda;
(ii) has engaged in, aided or abetted, or conspired to commit, acts of international terrorism, or acts in preparation therefor, that have caused, threaten to cause, or have as their aim to cause, injury to or adverse effects on the United States, its citizens, national security, foreign policy, or economy; or
(iii) has knowingly harbored one or more individuals described in subparagraphs (i) or (ii) of subsection 2(a)(1) of this order; and
(2) it is in the interest of the United States that such individual be subject to this order.
(B) It is the policy of the United States that the secretary of defense shall take all necessary measures to ensure that any individual subject to this order is detained in accordance with section 3, and, if the individual is to be tried, that such individual is tried only in accordance with section 4.
(C) It is further the policy of the United States that any individual subject to this order who is not already under the control of the secretary of defense but who is under the control of any other officer or agent of the United States or any state shall, upon delivery of a copy of such written determination to such officer or agent, forthwith be placed under the control of the secretary of defense.
Section 3. Detention Authority of the Secretary of Defense.
Any individual subject to this order shall be
(A) detained at an appropriate location designated by the secretary of defense outside or within the United States;
(B) treated humanely, without any adverse distinction based on race, color, religion, gender, birth, wealth, or any similar criteria;
(C) afforded adequate food, drinking water, shelter, clothing, and medical treatment;
(D) allowed the free exercise of religion consistent with the requirements of such detention; and
(E) detained in accordance with such other conditions as the secretary of defense may prescribe.
Section 4. Authority of the Secretary of Defense Regarding Trials of Individuals Subject to This Order.
(A) Any individual subject to this order shall, when tried, be tried by military commission for any and all offenses triable by military commission that such individual is alleged to have committed, and may be punished in accordance with the penalties provided under applicable law, including life imprisonment or death.
(B) As a military function and in light of the findings in section 1, including subsection (f) thereof, the secretary of defense shall issue such orders and regulations, including orders for the appointment of one or more military commissions, as may be necessary to carry out subsection (a) of this section.
(C) Orders and regulations issued under subsection (b) of this section shall include, but not be limited to, rules for the conduct of the proceedings of military commissions, including pretrial, trial, and post- trial procedures, modes of proof, issuance of process, and qualifications of attorneys, which shall at a minimum provide for
(1) military commissions to sit at any time and any place, consistent with such guidance regarding time and place as the secretary of defense may provide;
(2) a full and fair trial, with the military commission sitting as the triers of both fact and law;
(3) admission of such evidence as would, in the opinion of the presiding officer of the military commission (or instead, if any other member of the commission so requests at the time the presiding officer renders that opinion, the opinion of the commission rendered at that time by a majority of the commission), have probative value to a reasonable person;
(4) in a manner consistent with the protection of information classified or classifiable under Executive Order 12958 of April 17, 1995, as amended, or any successor Executive Order, protected by statute or rule from unauthorized disclosure, or otherwise protected by law,
(a) the handling of, admission into evidence of, and access to materials and information, and
(b) the conduct, closure of, and access to proceedings;
(5) conduct of the prosecution by one or more attorneys designated by the secretary of defense and conduct of the defense by attorneys for the individual subject to this order;
(6) conviction only upon the concurrence of two-thirds of the members of the commission present at the time of the vote, a majority being present;
(7) sentencing only upon the concurrence of two-thirds of the members of the commission present at the time of the vote, a majority being present; and
(8) submission of the record of the trial, including any conviction or sentence, for review and final decision by me or by the secretary of defense if so designated by me for that purpose.
Section 5. Obligation of Other Agencies to Assist the Secretary of Defense.
Departments, agencies, entities, and officers of the United States shall, to the maximum extent permitted by law, provide to the secretary of defense such assistance as he may request to implement this order.
Section 6. Additional Authorities of the Secretary of Defense.
(A) As a military function and in light of the findings in section 1, the secretary of defense shall issue such orders and regulations as may be necessary to carry out any of the provisions of this order.
(B) The secretary of defense may perform any of his functions or duties, and may exercise any of the powers provided to him under this order (other than under section 4(c)(8) hereof) in accordance with section 113(d) of title 10, United States Code.
Section 7. Relationship to Other Law and Forums.
(A) Nothing in this order shall be construed to
(1) authorize the disclosure of state secrets to any person not otherwise authorized to have access to them;
(2) limit the authority of the president as commander in chief of the armed forces or the power of the president to grant reprieves and pardons; or
(3) limit the lawful authority of the secretary of defense, any military commander, or any other officer or agent of the United States or of any state to detain or try any person who is not an individual subject to this order.
(B) With respect to any individual subject to this order
(1) military tribunals shall have exclusive jurisdiction with respect to
offenses by the individual; and
(2) the individual shall not be privileged to seek any remedy or maintain any proceeding, directly or indirectly, or to have any such remedy or proceeding sought on the individual's behalf, in
(i) any court of the United States, or any State thereof,
(ii) any court of any foreign nation, or
(iii) any international tribunal.
(C) This order is not intended to and does not create any right, benefit, or privilege, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or equity by any party, against the United States, its departments, agencies, or other entities, its officers or employees, or any other person.
(D) For purposes of this order, the term "state" includes any state, district, territory, or possession of the United States.
(E) I reserve the authority to direct the secretary of defense, at anytime hereafter, to transfer to a governmental authority control of any individual subject to this order. Nothing in this order shall be construed to limit the authority of any such governmental authority to prosecute any individual for whom control is transferred.
Section 8. Publication. This order shall be published in the Federal Register."
Yep ... clearly scary stuff ... it's a typical political reaction to the outcome of (ahem) "bipartisanship" ... much like the airline security morass ... once the a**holes realized that their poll numbers were down on the elephant side, "whoops!" ... bill in compromise.
And so it goes ... EVEN NOW ...
And now for something completely different...
HAHAHA
Serves 'em right
Here is the link to that article.
I was taking pictures at the 36st. St. subway yard in Brooklyn last week and was followed along the fence by security guards in a car the whole way. When I was walking back, they were quickly moving a big truck blocking the entrance gate to the yard and locking it. (It was open on my first pass).
I don't think I will be taking transit pictures for a while.
Why would the Brits by sping on the greek they are both in NATO
>>> Why would the Brits by sping on the greek they are both in NATO <<<
Probably for the same reason we spy on the French and English, and the Israelis spy on us. To know what is going on. And of course there is no reason to assume any spying was necessarily being done for Great Britain. It was not James Bond they caught, just a bunch of British and Dutch middle aged airplane fans. It is possible that one of them joined the group for the purpose of gathering intelligence (for Turkey, another NATO ally), but not likely.
The thought of twelve spies standing in a group taking pictures is rather ludicrous.
Tom
Why would the Brits by sping on the greek they are both in NATO
*****************************************************************
I think that perhaps a tad more thought should have gone into
that question before it was posted.
Same reason why we send French diplomats back home after a spanking - industrial espionage.
Taking pictures of aircraft is a ridiculous idea of a hobby?
If so, then so is taking pictures of trains, buses, cars, and anything else.
I hate to say it, but I do know a lot of folks interested in all of the above. And those interested in the aircraft seem to be the cleanest people around. I see more people around rails taking the pictures that look like they don't know a thing about hygiene or doing laundry.
I have heard from folks in the airliner hobby that it IS difficult to get away with photographing aircraft in/around the airports of Greece. Some countries have some pretty stiff restrictions about doing so. And look at how many people have gotten into a bind taking pictures of subway trains in various cities as well.
I think there was a level of sarcasm that you simply missed. Obviously airplane hobbyists are as valid as railroad hobbyists, and it goes to show that if that can happen to people taking picutres of aircraft, it can happen to one of us who takes pictures and may happen to look suspicious to the wrong cop at the wrong time.
"What a ridiculous idea for a hobby, collecting photos of airplanes. I've never heard of such a silly idea"
Really? I thought losers only took pics of trains and buses.
What is wrong with that? Some people like me enjoy all three.
"i've never heard of such a silly idea." Railfaning is a silly idea also which many in here do as a hobby
Greece is a hot item for militray aircraft lovers. They still fly T-2 Buckeyes and A-7 Coursair II's. Those are like the R-38's of the Aircraft world. Turkey might still be flying F-100's, but I doubt it.
Ever checked out airliners.net KMA? Cause if you had, you would have known that there are much more plane spotters/fans in the world, than there are railfans/spotters etc...
Taking pictures of subways, in my opinion sounds "sillier" than taking pics of planes etc... but that's my personal opinion.
Why don't you check out that site, and then go back and see how stupid your comment was...
whew
What a ridiculous idea for a hobby, collecting photos of airplanes. I've never heard of such a silly idea; and neither have the Greeks.
There certainly is such a hobby.
They sit at the end of the runway, recording tail numbers all day when we lauch training sotie. They get excited then we have a visiting fighter from the states. You should see their book of listing.
And then there are those sitting at the end of our maintainance yard taking photos and recording car numbers. They get excited when we have a visiting trainset from another line. You should see their postings online here! Peter
Look at all these pictures they have of the plane that crashed.
Yep, and if you want to see all the pictures they had of the 9/22 planes, you can find them on that site, Search under 9/11, or I have to the link to them on my bad WTC website... www.geocities.com/worldtradecenterphotos
Yep, and if you want to see all the pictures they had of the 9/11 planes, you can find them on that site, Search under 9/11, or I have to the link to them on my bad WTC website... www.geocities.com/worldtradecenterphotos
Yeah... some people are pretty stupid here.
Hehe.. taking pictures of subways is cool, but taking pics of planes is the silliest thing I've ever heard...
What a "retarded" comment to make.
That sort of saying rail fanning is ridiculous beaus we do the same thing.
One of the things I'd like to capture on future tee shirts are
the riders. Do any of you have cool pictures of the "scene"
on platforms and on trains throughout the city?
I'd like to see photos that capture the diversity we have in our
system, as well as the "vibe" of the various neighborhood stations.
Who gets on at the #1,#2,#3 Harlem 125th St., and who gets on
the #A at Lefferts Blvd.?
Thought you might be a good resource.
Subway grrl
How about you doing a subway map T Shirt. I know the lines change but it is a start
Yeah! I have a map tee shirt - obviously not current. Kids and adults. They
sold out, but will be back in the TM Gift shop at Grand Central
within a couple of weeks!
Subway grrl
I'll be bored one day and take a pic of the Lefferts Station. I live out in SI, but i have some motivation to go visit my old neighborhood.
>>> One of the things I'd like to capture on future tee shirts are the riders. <<<
A nice idea, but what a headache to get the necessary clearances from anyone who might be identified in such a photo.
Tom
Artists can have fun with such a concept. You grab a crowd and then paste sheep heads on the necks of all of them in various angles and aspects. I'd buy one. :)
Wouldn't cattlle be more appropriate for rush-hour trains?
Yeah, that's why the people would not be recognizable in the final
image. We'd take some "artistic license" with the photos.
Subway grrl
In today's Daily News---with a new Metro North station?
WTC Replacement Plan
Metro-South sounds more like it.
So far I've heard at least three proposals for a Metro North station at WTC, but I've never heard how they plan to get the trains down from Midtown to the site. If they're only talking about the Hudson Divsion, maybe the high line could be reactivated and a new elevated section built down West Street south of 14th.
But for trains coming from the Harlem and New Haven lines, the only way to get a line down there while disrputing the existing subway lines as little as possible would be from Grand Central down Madison Ave., across Madison Square Park, down Fifth Ave., across Washington Square Park, down LaGuardia Place and the West Broadway to Franklin St., and then the line would have to either undercut the 1/2/3 tracks to the WTC area or do a zig-zag west to Greenwhich or Washington streets (not really easy with them 85-foot cars). Between the costs and the NIMBYs along that route, I don't see how it's feasable.
On the other hand, dropping West Street below ground and hooking up the new WTC plaza with the World Financial Center and Battery Park City is an idea that does make sense.
So far I've heard at least three proposals for a Metro North station at WTC, but I've never heard how they plan to get the trains down from Midtown to the site. If they're only talking about the Hudson Divsion, maybe the high line could be reactivated and a new elevated section built down West Street south of 14th.
I think it'd be great to see the High Line put back to rail use, but talk about NIMBYs in the now-gentrified areas of west Chelsea and the meatpacking district ....
That said, remember Metro-North also has west-of-Hudson trains (operated by NJ Transit) that now land at Penn. You could run THEM down that same routing too. Probably some tough issues getting them out of the tunnel and onto the High Line, though. Pretty congested there. At least the stadium isn't likely to get built.
Too bad they didn't build a rail tunnel under the surface-level West Side Highway boulevard that's now mostly done. In hindsight, that would have been VERY interesting: Hudson Line to (a short piece of) High Line diving underground where it parallels the highway, all the way down to the WTC. Would have given downtown commuter rail AND offered possible relief to Penn Station capacity problems.
None of the Metro North West of Hudson services go to Penn Station. All MN service over there is diesel hauled and terminates at Hoboken.
However, you could dig extremely deep tunnels with TBM's ala what they did in Paris with the new RER-E line, going under everything else with not much regard for following surface streets.
None of the Metro North West of Hudson services go to Penn Station. All MN service over there is diesel hauled and terminates at Hoboken.
Oh, of course ... right ... DOH!
However, when Secaucus Transfer opens, won't some of the Metro North west-of-Hudson services then come into Penn? Or at least it will be technically feasible, depending on horse-trading amongst different lines & riderships & ultimate destinations?
They'd have to electrify the Main or Bergen County line, and then all the way out to Port Jervis. If they ever get around to building that second pair of tracks under the Hudson, NJT plans on putting some catenary as far as at least Ridgewood (probably to Waldwick to use the yard) but that doesn't help MNRR any. The Port Jervis line is 92 miles long, $too long$ to string wires. However, they could put in some third rail (the existing tubes already have it) and possibly run Genesis trains up to there, but NJT is dead set against the whole dual mode thing so MNRR would have to foot the bill.
AGH! The Bergen/Main lines have lots of grade crossings and low tunnels/bridges. It would be impossible to secure the right of way for 3rd rail.
And the Secaucus Transfer station does *NOT* currently include a junction between the two lines. They'd need to build a massive earthworks ramp to account for the change in altitude and near-90degree turn.
All the ARC projects include the ramps, but that's still pie-in-the-sky.
At least one track of the Main Line was electrified at one point as far as the turnoff to the North Arlington-kearny yards branch. Some poles are still precariously standing south of the NEC trestle, but there's no wire. The poles are all too far southwest to serve any of the existing tracks.
Secaucus Transfer will be a change of platforms, not a direct train routing. Eventually NJT would like to build track connections but for now it is a station with two sets of platforms and rerquire change of platform to get from main/Bergen to NE Corridor.
The West of Hudson trains (Pascack Valley and Port Jervis) could cross over from Hoboken to the new WTC Metro North station on car floats. :)
And here are links to the articles in City Journal:
How to Rebuild New York
The Twin Towers Project: A Cautionary Tale
What Should Rise From the Ashes?
The last one has illustrations of the project described in the Daily News.
At least we have a concept. The statuary seems bombastic to me.
A depressed West St makes more and more sense, tho' one also wants basement-level connections from BP City clear over to Church and parts east (at least to Broadway).
I myself want to see a very arrogant world's tallest building down there, something on the scale of the Empire State Bldg., tho' with bigger floors.
A big plaza is appropriate, but one would get more sun if you put it on the West Street side, incorporating it over a depressed West St.
As for a "Metro North train station", I also express bewilderment on how the trains are to get there. I think the authors are ignorant, and are thinking of simply making an alternate terminal to Penn Station, with tracks running under 11th or 10th Avenue, then down West. The big question is who'd pay for this, in that it would mainly serve NJT and the LIRR. It also looks as if 'the bathtub' would have to be essentially demolished north and south to accomodate such a station.
Hate to be the wet blanket here but....
Before they concentrating on building the world's tallest building, shouldn't we FIRST make sure that ALL terrorists are eliminated from our midst?
Before concentrating on a world's tallest building, shouldn't we ALSO concetrate on making airport and national security tighter than it is now? From what I hear, airport security is STILL a joke.
Otherwise, we are just setting ourselves up for another massive tragedy a few years down the road. And I'll tell you another thing, IF we DON'T make national security the FIRST priority , people WILL NOT want to work in this "world's tallest building".
Let's not put the cart before the horse, shall we? Let's not act arrogant and defiant to "show those terrorists what we're made of".
Let's not act like we're some testerone-charged high school football team psyching ourselves up in the locker room before the big game. Instead let's try to think things out like MATURE adults.
There are already other "world's tallest buildings." They're just as vulnerable, nobody is insane enough to close them down until all of those problems are solved.
By the way, if you're waiting for the day when we eliminate all terrorists, I hope you intend to live forever.
In an article in todays Daily News regarding a potential fare increase (the TA says ther will not be one) The writer Paul Shin mentions that the V is scheduled to start 12/16.
http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-11-16/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-132245.asp
Has anyone heard anything official on this? The last I heard was 12/10.
Yes, I posted here about a week ago that it was delayed from Dec 9th to the 16th. This is because of a Contractor issue with the signal system.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
groooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaan
:-) Andrew
You'll survive! They are probably behind since many GO's couldn't work in the aftermath of the WTC attack.
May as well wait 'till the 23rd and call it a Christmas present...
LOL!!!!
Right!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Amazingly enough, though, there has still been no official word to those of us in RTO that implementation of the pick is being pushed back a week.
Not Surprising! Communication is anything but good at all levels of the TA.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
The TA officially put out a notice stating that the new B division pick for RTO (including the start of the new V train) has been pushed back one week to start on Dec. 16th.
Kudos to Trevor for getting the advance scoop.
Now quick - how many different rumors have you heard as to why? So far, I've got:
1 - a line repick for the N
2 - a section repick for the South
3 - a division repick
4 - 2nd Ave not ready for service
5 - Not enough OPTO-qualified people for the Grand St Shuttle
6 - time needed to show off supplements for Q service cut-back to Brighton Beach 24/7, local and express.
My opinions:
>>>>>>>>1 - a line repick for the N
I would think that this one is "odds-on" to be true. In other words, very likely.
>>>>>>>>2 - a section repick for the South
Haven't heard this one, then again I'm rarely in the South. If only the N is affected, then you can count this one out.
>>>>>>>>>3 - a division repick
Bite your tongue. But if #4 is true, it could come to that.
>>>>>>>>>4 - 2nd Ave not ready for service
I would think that this one is a longshot. There haven't been any problems that I know of when B/D service is rerouted there.
>>>>>>>>>5 - Not enough OPTO-qualified people for the Grand St Shuttle
Easily rectified. OPTO training is 5 days long, and can be cut down to as little as 3 days. If a pick T/O isn't qualified, then there are many extra list & OPTO VR T/O's that can fill in that are. Dismiss this rumor.
>>>>>>>>>6 - time needed to show off supplements for Q service cut-back to Brighton Beach 24/7, local and express.
Not sure on this one. BBC to STL isn't far to go. As long as the jobs aren't adversely affected, then this shouldn't be a problem.
Ohhh Zman.....I'll need your advice and experience cuz Car Inspectors pick comes up Dec 1...and I'm a newbie. I've had 7 to 3/ M to F/ RDO sat.Sun...a lucky start. Peter
Your first pick and you've got 7am-3pm with S/S off................and you need MY advice??? Heck, I should be asking YOU!
Of course if you need any advice, I'd be more than happy to dish it out.
I had a prayer to be able to serve on Sunday mornings....Mom said it was 'the luck of the Irish. What I do know now is to seek 'inspection' assignments. I'm happy at 239th and the 'guests of our country' wannabe at Coney Island. Namaste/das vidanya. Peter
Time to pay your dues like every other rookie!
I do have to say that fellow employees in other departments such as CED, revenue, etc. pay less dues that someone would in RTO, stations, etc.
I do not believe that Peter will have a tough time as far as picking goes, he's appears to be in the right spot.
And ther you go -- guessing wrong. It seems that there is going to be a South section repick right after New Years. I, for one, will be very pissed if I lose my early AMs because of this.
OK the one week is because of signal issues and contractor completion. Signals were also the reason it was not ready in July.
As for the rest of the stuff according to that invitation only site we are both members of, there will be a southern repick. That sort of makes sense as they are looking to move up the close down dates of the other lines (Stillwell rehab) and probably don't want to hear all the complaints all over again on the other lines. It does leave the F in the cold but who knows.
What equipment do they plan to use on the V?
R46.
A Mix of R-46s and R-32s!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I saw the car assignment roster (unless there is a new one since) which showed all R46 on the G/F/V. R32's on the E (of course an R46 will show up here and there) and a mix of R32 & R46 on the R.
Why am'I not so surprised.
HMMM, Lets see, the original date set for V service startup was late august 2001. It was delayed to 11/7/01 becaused of a unfinsinished project or something else, The second delayed extended to 12/9/01 because of NR suspension after 9/11 attack; and now this 3rd delay is being extended til 12/16 because of "contractor issue with the signal system".
Give me a break!... I think this is their another poor excuse for not get thing done on time. Eventually, if they knew there r no right dates for the V startup. Might as well stop telling the public, and rider that the V start will start in this particular date (when ever the heck it is).
Excuse me for being so rude over here. I find that this person (who's in charge of this V service project) doesn't really know how do his/her job.
Delay, Delay....! That all I hear from them. What next?...(V service will be again delay til 2005.
Was there anything "official" about the V train? There was wword that it was supposed to start this fall. But after 9/11 it was undoubtly pushed back indefinately. But I never heard any formal annoucement about it. And I've been to Jay St asking. So I'm not reading some poster on a subway wall that nobody else can find.
This Sunday there's supposed to be a memorial service at Riis Park for the victims of Monday's horrible plane crash. For the next three weekends there's shuttle buses replacing subway service over the trestle. This will surely result in chaos as thousands of Washington Heights residents who know the 'A' goes to Rockaway attempt to squeeze into shuttle buses at Liberty and Cross Bay. I've taken this shuttle bus before, and there's enough confusion as it is.
True, under normal circumstances one would have to change at Broad Channel for the shuttle to B116 and then the Q35 to Riis Park- or take a very slow '2' train to Flatbush Avenue for the 35, which runs a half hour apart (if you're lucky). But one would think that in deference to this memorial, they could scrap the track work and have trains run directly to the Rockaways. People are going to be distressed enough without having to crowd up and down stairs and in and out of buses.
Past experience during this GO has dictated that too few Queens-bound 'A' conductors announce that all trains are going to Lefferts, and if you need JFK or the Rockaways to take this train to Rockaway Boulevard for the bus. Hence, you've got loads of people left fuming on platforms waiting for Far Rockaway trains that aren't coming till Monday morning. A general lack of red and white advisory signs on most platforms don't help either.
This seemingly never-ending GO is even taking place over Thanksgiving weekend, as it did two years ago. Sunday afternoon there were loads of airport-bound luggage-laden tourists attempting to follow the common instructions to take the Far Rockaway-bound train to Howard Beach/JFK. It's highly doubtful most tourists would know about GOs and shuttle buses- especially if there are no signs or announcements.
Can't there be a moratorium on GOs during holiday weekends- especially on lines that serve airports (or buses to airports) and carry a lot of people who may not be that familiar with the system?
Anyway, the added difficulties in getting to Riis Park certainly is going to exacerbate an already upsetting situation. Maybe it was chosen because of its proximity to the crash scene, ample parking and location on federal property (which means the National Guard and Parks Services personnel would provide security rather than the already taxed NYPD). A WTC memorial service that had been scheduled for Central Park was called off due to a lack of sufficient police personnel.
If not for that, Inwood or Van Cortlandt Parks would seem to be more convenient locales for thousands of Washington Heights mourners.
I'm no regular user or expert on rockaway service, bor do i ever want to be, but i've heard the shuttle bus is faster - given that the change to the slow moving shuttle train can take up quite a bit of time - especially at night, where i recall it taking at least an hour and a half just to get up to 'the main line' connecting with the lefferts A...
The shuttle bus connects the A to the Rockaways shuttle (Rockaway Park - Far Rockaway), which is probably running its usual 3 tph schedule. The bus ride itself takes a while. The usual ride, complete with transfer at Broad Channel, takes much, much less time.
At least you can ride on the part of the wye that is hardly in pax service (looking for the bright side).
Been there, done that (in both directions). Too bad the shuttle doesn't run any R-38's.
I really don't understand why a G.O. affecting the South Channel bridge prevents trains from turning at Howard Beach. Or, for that matter, even Broad Channel. Broad Channel can instantly be turned into a high-capacity turnaround since it has a double crossover. The shuttle bus could stop right at the station on Noel Road, or if residents protest it could stop at Crossbay and the pax can walk the one block. Plus, Broad Channel is further on the line, therefore less people transferring to the bus and less distance for the bus to travel, therefore fewer buses required!
Unless the G.O. is for Airtrain construction. But they could still run trains through just bypass the airport and make everyone txfr to the bus at Aqueduct. Maybe even reroute the airport shuttle buses to stop there and no MTA buses required.
Sort of on the subject of Rockaway shuttles. Do they ever still run that "round-robin" service anymore at night in revenue service?:Broad Channel To Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway back to Broad Channel? I haven't been there in years.
No. The A from 207th St. serves Far Rockaway. Shuttles operate between Euclid-Lefferts and Broad Channel-Rockaway Park during the midnight hours.
That was the H. It was terminated when Rockaways services were reorganized in 1992. (The C no longer serves Rockaway Park during the day. Except for a handful of rush hour A specials, the only service to RP is a shuttle.)
The roads near Broad Channel Station are not that wide to have buses going back and forth. You could have people walk from the station to Cross Bay Blvd. But it's something like 4 blocks from one end to the other.
If people change to/from a shuttle bus at Howard Beach Station the bus would have to go 2 blocks north then make a left turn to get to Cross Bay Blvd. Look it up on a map sometime!
And Aqueduct Station? The only place for people to transfer would be outside the station entrence on North Conduit. With the traffic coming off the Belt Pkwy, it wouldn't be too safe for buses parked at the curb. There are enough accidents along there without cars plowing into buses waiting for passengers.
Why can't the TA run special free buses from Flatbush avenue non-stop to Jacob Riis park? It's during the weekend so there should be enough buses. Many of the Washington Heights residents do not own cars, the TA is doing a great diservice to them by having them travel such a long, roundabout way to the memorial.
To think about it cemeteries should be more accessible to people without cars. Here on Long Island the large Pinelawn cemetary (which is where my mother is buried) is impossible to get to by bus or rail, which makes it impossible to visit my Mom. I don't think you can "request" a stop at the LIRR Pinelawn station.
Death and loss are hard enough, and when you can't even get there to grieve it makes it very hard to bear indeed.
John --
From the Ronkonkoma schedules, there is direct train service from Mineola to Pinelawn weekdays and weekends. The ride only takes 24 minutes.
Or am I missing something?
CG
From the Ronkonkoma schedules, there is direct train service from Mineola to Pinelawn weekdays and weekends. The ride only takes 24 minutes.
Or am I missing something?
Most, if not all, mid-day trains on the Ronkonkoma line stop at Pinelawn. Only the first car platforms.
OK, thanks I thought Pinelawn was a special stop. But only the first car platforms. And BTW according to channel 5 news buses are being provided from Washington Heights to Riis park memorial.
Normally, bus service that is provided during G.O.s, parallels the rail service that it is replacing. That's because the supplimentary service is not meant to be point - point but also to serve all of the points in between. Now, without meaning to sound insensative, why should it become the TAs responsibility to transport families or provide service to this memorial. If that is deemed to be the responsibility of some other than the families, should that not be the responsibility of American Airlines, JAL the travel Agent(s) or the FAA?
As to the issue of the Pinelawn Cemetary, I think if you were really interested, you'd have checked the Ronkonkoma schedule for pinelawn service. Virtually every Ronkonkoma train between 9:15A and 3:15P (1 per hour out of Penn Station) stops at Pinelawn. Same for Westbound too. It's almost as easy as getting your laundry to great Neck.
Even if you get to Pinelawn, how do you get to the cemetery? I faced this situation this past May. Somebody would have to pick me up at the "station". I couldn't find any bus service and taxi service didn't seem possible. The "station" is just a platform. Fortunately, my brother picked me up at my NY hotel and we drove out together and back.
Michael
Even if you get to Pinelawn, how do you get to the cemetery? I faced this situation this past May. Somebody would have to pick me up at the "station". I couldn't find any bus service and taxi service didn't seem possible. The "station" is just a platform. Fortunately, my brother picked me up at my NY hotel and we drove out together and back.
The cemetery is located immediately to the north of the station. Granted, the cemetery is so vast, some parts may be beyond easy walking distance from the station.
Pinelawn has multiple cemeteries. The one I went was at least 5 miles away, next to the Southern State Parkway.
Michael
Why is the MTA always doing construction on that tressel?
It's called maintenance & repairs
Uh oh...
NEW YORK (AP) -- Test results for anthrax on the subways won't be announced until Saturday because federal medical officials "don't want to report any earlier testing that may not hold up," the city health commissioner said Thursday.
The Department of Health, which had originally planned to release results on Thursday, would not say whether that meant there were preliminary positive readings. A spokeswoman for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which did the testing, said, "We want to be sure of what we're releasing."
The Department of Health and the CDC went into the subway system over the weekend looking for the source of the anthrax spores that killed Kathy Nguyen, the 61-year-old hospital worker who became New York's only victim of inhalation anthrax and its only anthrax fatality.
Her death is one of the biggest mysteries in the bioterrorism investigation because she did not fit the pattern of New York's other anthrax cases, all of which are the easily cured skin type of the disease and can be linked to news outlets.
Nguyen, who died Oct. 31, worked in the supply room of the outpatient Manhattan Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital, and no traces of anthrax have been found there or at her Bronx apartment. Investigators decided to check the subway line she took to and from work each day and took samples from filters and air ducts.
Health Commissioner Neal Cohen defended the decision not to announce early findings by saying that whatever the findings are, they "will not have an impact on public health" because it has been about a month since the most likely time of Nguyen's exposure.
Health department spokesman Greg Butler would not comment when asked if preliminary findings were in. CDC spokeswoman April Bell said, "We're not in the habit of releasing preliminary results. We want to be sure of what we're releasing."
(Copyright 2001 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
Chances are the subways will turn out negative. After all, if she contracted it from a MVM or a turnstile, there would have been other cases.
Test of settings, report to follow
I never knew this until I visited there, but Toronto's subway has the same quaint and famous warning as the London Underground posted on signs on the platforms.
Mark
I see Simon showed you an EasyEverything? :-)
He sure did, Dave. Read on.
MIND THE GAP!
wayne
Well think of it this way. How do we watch our head?
I got a kick out of the way exits are noted in Britain: way out.
Weren't the "Way Out's" a singing group on the Flintstones or the Jetsons?
It was The Flintstones. The Way Outs were the music sensation that took Bedrock by storm, and they had an outer space theme (prefiguring in fiction both Ziggy Stardust and Parliament-Funkadellic). Fred was dressed as a space alien for Halloween (maybe) and somehow he and The Way Outs became mistaken for real space aliens, and mass panic ensued.
Mark
Thanks for the info, it's been a while since I saw that episode.
When it is the way out, but I also saw some exit signs there in May
I was there in 1978, so it's entirely possible things have changed. I hear they still have distances posted in miles on their highways when otherwise they've gone metric. Or has that changed as well?
One great way to increase security on subways would be to install metal sensors at each turnstile. The cost would be enormous but in light of 9-11-01 it would be worth it.
Eric D. Smith
That's the craziest idea I've heard. How would it work in the real life, ban all metal objects (including tokens, change, keys etc.) in the subways?
Also how would that increase security?
Arti
Uh, sure. If you don't mind waiting hours to get into the stations... the commute hours are bad enough now with extra load placed on the trains & ferries in places that didn't have such load before. Why don't we take a few extra minutes per person to pat every single person down as they board? My commute has already gone from 25 minutes to an hour and 25 minutes each way. If you make the subway/bus/ferry so inconvenient and the city's economy WILL fall apart as a mass exodus begins to avoid mass transportation and the restrictions already in place on the automobile crossings. At what price is the line drawn between being security conscious vs. paranoid?
I assume we all will ride in the buff to "INCREASE SECURITY"
P Hom
Yeah, this is like my impression of Costa del Sol, Spain topless beaches. No one who you would want to see ride the subway would ride the subway. ;-)
Well, if that helps....
Eric D. Smith
>>>I assume we all will ride in the buff to "INCREASE SECURITY"<<<
Now...That truly IS a frightening thought...enough to give one terrible nightmares
Peace,
ANDEE
How about putting a button in the token booth so the SA can ZAP anyone who looks like a terrorist.
We could just do what the airlines did pre-9/11....have the SA ask each person as they enter
"Are you carrying any bombs or biological weapons into the subway?"
"Did you pack your briefcase yourself?"
Ieah- I could see it now: "What bleeping business it is of yours"
Already we get many cusses if we refuse to sell one token with a $100 ot $50 bill. Just this AM I had to get a cop already near the booth to explain to a customer why I refused his $50 for a weekly card.
We get cussed if we dont knwo the exact time the next train arrives, if we ask a tall child (over 44 inches must pay adult fare) to pay their fare, we get cussed if we tell doublers (those who use one swipe or token and two or more enter.)
I have started to answer aome of these (I am a lunch relief snd as such am out of the booth most of the night)" I am sorry the train is late or not running. When you pay your fare you are merely granted a license to use the system. There is no guarantee a train will arrive at a specifc time, no guarantee you will get a seat and no guarantee you will make a specific connection." I then remind them NJT runs hourly (and does not run all night) and PATH half-hourly. I then repeat "I am sorry. I know you are frustrated. I asm waiting for a train myself."
The subway's will never be to secure because everyone is going to have acess to it.And besides the thought of a 100% safe subway is hillarious.I also think there was a reason Mohhamed Attah didn't hijack a E train.
Then again,in our lifetimes I expect to be standng in front of some guy waiting for a train who's being interigated by a clud with a double digit income and a single digit I.Q. answering the following questions:
Q:Did you pack your bags yourself ?
A:No.Carrot top packed my bags.He,Martha Stewart and Florence Henderson came over to the house last night,fixed me a lobster newburg,massaged my back with sacred oils from India,preformed a 4 way around the world and then they packed my bags.
Q:Have your bags been in your possesion the whole time?
A:No.Just before I went to bed I placed my bags on a Queens bound A train.
Q:Did a unknown person hold your bags?
A:MMM.Well what exactly is an unknown person.Surely someone is known to everyone.Just last night Mohammed Atta and Tupak Shakur was making fun of the weight of my bags.
"No.Carrot top packed my bags.He,Martha Stewart and Florence Henderson came over to the house last night,fixed me a lobster newburg,massaged my back with sacred oils from India,preformed a 4 way around the world and then they packed my bags."
AHA !! Florence Henderson is the terrorist !
Bill "Newkirk"
And what am I supposed to do with my keys?
Hello to everybody in the SubTalk community, from an internet cafe on London Street, which, of course is in London. So far so good for me here, I have gotten over jet lag, completed three good-sized journeys on the LU and had three fish suppers (excellent fish & chips place right down the street). I'm staying near Paddington Station, which is my home LU station. Bakerloo, Hammersmith/City and Circle line stops here, also Edgware Road shuttle. I've ridden on every line at least in part (except for the Docklands LR, we do that Monday), and also ridden in every type of stock they have.
My favorites so far?
Line: Bakerloo
Stock: 1972 MkII (Metro-Cammell)
Stations: Many so far, Paddington Bakerloo is one.
You think the NYCT and PATH has curves? LU has them in droves, and they HURT! You have to see the one outside of Paddington! Take the Christopher Street PATH curve and put it IN the station (at one end) and that's what you have here at Paddington. AND there ain't no track sprayers or grease guns with these tube cars- just unadulterated SCREAM. People actually hold their ears. It's like the old Hudson Terminal. There's a similar one at Piccadilly Circus Bakerloo As for the "moosic", some sound like the Path K cars, and some sound like the DC Metro (the 1995 Northern Line and 1996 Jubilee line stock) and some sound like NYC B Division cars.
Service is very frequent and Rush hour can get very crowded. I had to wait three trains to get from Baker Street to Paddngton at about 6PM.
I have been to a number of terminals: Queens Park (Bakerloo), Arnos Grove (Piccadilly), Morden (Northern), Edgware (Northern), Stratford (Jubilee), Stanmore (Jubilee), Upminster (District), Walthamstow Central (Victoria), Hainault (Central), Woodford (Central); I did the Waterloo & City (DAVE: I got to see th Drain and I took a picture), the East London (including Shoreditch), and I have been round the Circle in three stages. Tonight I am off to Uxbridge and maybe a little round-the-bush downtown. Tomorrow Simon and I are off to Isle of Wight to see the 1938 Tube Stock.
Traffic here is a nightmare, as bad as NYC, but the people are really nice.
I can not for the life of me see how they keep the seats as nice as they are, they're cloth (almost like a velveteen). A lot of the car interiors are color-coded, some don't match their lines (Jubilee, District, Northern), but this is a class-A subway, er...TUBE, Underground, whatever, I have fallen in love with it.
More to come later this weekend.
MIND THE GAP!
wayne
I'll check it out, going over in one month from today!
> maybe a little round-the-bush downtown.
I can't possibly come up with a "G" rated explaination for what this might mean.
Other than he might be going for a late night visit to Leicster Square?
-Robert King
We'll leave that to your imagination.
Mind The Gap!
wayne
Glad you are enjoying the trip. See you in the morning.
Simon
Simon, you should take him on the trip you took me, on I was watching the Videos I took last May Last Night.
Reading his report, at the rate he is going, much of southern England will be covered by Sunday evening :) Better build some more lines - quick.
Simon
Swindon UK
Hey Simon, did Wayne tell you how much he loves screeching wheels on sharp curves?:-) Give my regards to the original 1863 tube portion.
Hey, if you get a chance you should take the Circle Line to the last stop!
Reading what you just posted, make me jelish(Sorry could not find it the Dictionry) of you. When I was in London, I did not get to ride the UG, I was on the Honeymoon. My wife and I did ride the buses afew times, but that was it. We only had a day when we got there we just stood in our Hotel room and sheep. We went out that night to pay our repect to Pince Di. We got there the day after see died. After that it was off to see 14 city in 17 days.
heheh...which would be...
Now THERE'S one that could prove to be a "never-ending" ride.
Actually, they put-in every so often at Aldgate to reverse the train so the wheels don't wear.
Circle uses C69/C72 stock.
wayne
Rim shot!!!
Uxbridge - isn't where the Monty Python crew had that road-climbing expedition?
what does a q- local car cost
Same as a q- express car
whats that amount?
and don't slants cost more?
Yep, slants cost more due to the royalties to the guy who came up with the look.
Arti
Probably less -- they're older and smaller. Check with your local used car dealer.
Buck and a half**, including free transfers to any other car.
(**Various discounts available with MetroCard.)
cost got bagged, so did revs eventually, though revs did the tunnel journal entry things and is thus one of the most respected writers in this town. from stickers to rollers to welders, the man is a innovatore of style and originality.
my favorite:
"better dead than revs"
I used to know Revs (and Espo too) when I went to school at IS 70. Too bad Revs killed himself trying to put his name up on the side of a building 10 stories up.
what choo talking about? when/where/etc? if true, it's news to me, and a lot of people for that matter.
Were there ever plans to replace the Myrtle Ave. El with a subway?
NO, they thought the bus would be quicker, the same as on 3rd Ave
It's really a shame that to get from Myrtle-Broadway to Jay Street-Boro Hall you have to take the M or J all the way across the bridge to Manhattan get off at Essex Street, change to the F, go back to Brooklyn, and get off at Boro Hall. I know it's a pain because I did it for three years, everyday. How nice it would have been if they rebuilt that el to handle heavier subway cars. It's a real loss.
Yes, I agree, and now with MetroTech there it would even be more important.
The way I understood it, the B54 bus took over the local routing on Myrtle Ave., with the transfers at Jay St. that even took into account the routing over the Brooklyn Bridge taken out in 1944. The GG Crosstown IND three blocks south of Myrtle Ave. took over the long distance ridership (apparently as designed by the IND). Not exactly ideal, but that el was never upgraded to post WWI BMT car spec's, and was doomed for a quite a few years.
A solution to the elderly el car problem could have been to "borrow" some relatively modern lightweight cars of similar configuration from Chicago.
As far as the TA not giving a darn about the people in the area, removing the el was supposed to have been an improvement. That has happened to a certain extent, but thirty years too late, and not everywhere along the avenue.
The time from my apartment on Hall St. to Jay St. on the B54 took over 20 minutes with rather long waits on the street, the schedule time on the el, was 20 minutes from Metropolitan to Jay. Go figure, some improvement.
30 odd years ago, I wonder what they called what we now call "Rocket Scientists"?
The B54 is now not even terminating at Jay Street and Metrotech. After 9-11 (due to the closure of traffic thru Metrotech) , it briefly went to Jay street via Flatbush eastbound at Myrtle to Livingston to Smith/Jay; but for the last month or so its terminal has been Myrtle and Flatbush (not crossing Flatbush). This makes the west exit of the Dekalb Street station more convenient (in the hours it is open) than the A, C, F Jay Street station.
Throw in the hassle that G service is (and will become), and service to the (rapidly growing) Myrtle Ave Fort Greene/Clinton Hill neighborhoods is getting to be a bigger and bigger hassle. Some of the old timers in the neighborhood say that the loss of the el was a big factor in the decline of the area. It is certainly on the mend now, but, if the Navy Yard really does become a job hub, the loss of that el service here will be lamented doubly as the service that took over starts bulging at the seams.
Then it looks like we can use a new line in Brooklyn. MTA, are you listening? If you build it, the customers will come.
I very seriously doute the TA would build in this area,given there past record.while it's true a new route along Myrtle ave would improve transportation in Downtown Brooklyn,it also just happens to make sense,and you know what happens to plan or idea's that make sense,they don't wash....look at the 2 ave line,makes sense ...but we still dont have one.Another exampell is the IND Second system, makes sense,but it's still not built..... one has to wonder.......
practical fantasy subway line suggestions are not my forte, but, just for fun...perhaps a new myrtle avenue line could head eastbound out of the current JMZ Myrtle station; come down from the el and go under myrtle with a stop at Throop (build transfer to G at Myrtle-Willoughby - lots of space in that station to build), maybe a stop at Classon, Vanderbilt, and Prince; then, bring it into the north side manhattan bridge tracks, and continue on 6th ave. By limiting stops to 4 new ones on Myrtle, you get good bed-stuy/clinton hill/fort greene service; and, you get a quick ride into the city, instead of the lame old JZ skip stop express service to nowhere that has been the only choice.
Of course, if this routing into 6th ave were to take the D's bronx terminal, you would also have a 4 borough train.
just a thought.
"then, bring it into the north side manhattan bridge tracks, "
Oh SURE!
Even us fantasy line builders know better than that! :)
New Lines need new tunnels, all present tunels and bridges are saturated with traffic, as are the existing Manhattan runk lines.
Now, I have several new tunnels planned...
Elias
or, keep service out of dekalb on the south tracks and on the BMT broadway express tracks where there is capacity (if the bridge could hold it)
<< A solution to the elderly el car problem could have been to "borrow" some relatively modern lightweight cars of
similar configuration from Chicago. >>
There was such a solution - there was an R39 car designed. Unfortunately, Dr Ronan was running amok like Robert Moses burning anything that looked antiquated, or slapping silver/blue paint on it in order to "modernize"
The Myrtle was well patronized down to Jay St until the end.
Do you have any more info on R39s?
Arti
All I know is these were the cars to take the place of the Q cars on the Myrtle Ave. el. They were supposed to be slow speed very light weight cars built exclusively for that line. I do not have specs for the cars, maybe someone else on SubTalk knows where they are, they have to be around someplace. I think that the TA would have still needed to rehab the el structure tho. They decided on bus service because of lack of community oppositon, cheap diesel fuel and traffic & air pollution was not an issue in 1969.
A real shame and a real loss.
The concept of neighborhood re-gentrification through transit investment did not exist then. Thankfully, we have a rebuilt Franklin shuttle today. I think the Brooklyn Lexington Avenue El was more of a loss, and if I had a choice to save it over the southern end of the Myrtle, I would have picked it. Downtown Brooklyn would have access from more communities without going though Manhattan.
The city figured that is what busses were for
Bill and all
I asked that question many months ago and I had no takers. I think the contract was a proposal with no funding for design/engineering set aside for the contract. In other words, it never got off the ground.
Would the R-39s have been similar in size to the IRT cars?
#3 West End Jeff
I never saw the specs.
I would guess it would if it were going to operate on the lower Myrtle and Third Ave. el sections, since both those were to the narrower IRT standards. But at least some would have needed platform extenders for the section of Myrtle north of Broadway to Metropolitan Ave.
Platform extenders were used on some IRT Low-V cars when they were temporarily transferred to the BMT division in 1959.
#3 West End Jeff
For many years until the early 1950's the BMT Standards used the same platforms as the BU gate cars on the Jamaica and Myrtle Ave lines.
Gatemen on the BU's would announce as they opened the gates, "Watch you step getting off!".
"Watch your step!" was also repeated to boarding passengers as well.
I rode a lot of BU's in the 1940's and 1950's and never saw or heard of anyone falling as a result of the larger gap, and it was indeed a larger gap. Maybe these personal warnings helped or perhaps the passengers back then paid more attention to their surroundings.
>>> Maybe these personal warnings helped or perhaps the passengers back then paid more attention to their surroundings. <<<
I am sure having the gateman at every entry did help. If an obviously distracted passenger came along, he could direct his admonition directly to that passenger with a different inflection and timing for that particular person. This would be more effective than a disembodied electronic voice saying "watch your step" over and over again to no one in particular.
Tom
I would agree that a "gateman" is probably much more effective than a prerecorded voice coming over a loudspeaker.
#3 West End Jeff
And although the BMT conductor's manual had numerous politenesses to quote for the geese, they also weren't above saying to the particularly disconnected, "Hey! Do your sleeping at night!" if it looked like someone would step into the void. I mean, let's be real - 6 inches isn't exactly a formidable gap ... except for children of course.
A gap of 6 inches isn't particularly formidable but if one has their foot in just the wrong position it can go through the gap.
#3 West End Jeff
Once upon a time, people feared Conductor Darwin and actually LOOKED before they stepped in doodoo ... too many barristers I fear. :)
I certainly hate to step in doodoo. In some places you do have to look before you step.
#3 West End Jeff
Sometimes you step in it, other times you vote for it. Step lively, please. :)
I have voted for it sometimes. I wonder who would be doodoo on the ballot in the next election.
#3 West End Jeff
On a similar note, thinking of today's safety concerns....On the Wyckoff station on the M line, on the edge of the platform where the "express" track should be, there is a horizontal bar type railing that kids sit on. If you look past that railing you can fall right to street level because there is no track there. It amazes me that first of all, it is a horizontal railing that a kid can go right under, and second that no one ever fell through. Also while on the subject, was there ever an express track between Wyckoff and Myrtle and was it ever used in revenue service?
Yes there was an express track there once. There's a picture of it in "The Brooklyn Elevateds". According to the BMT website , the line was three-tracked from Broadway to Wyckoff in anticipation of a connection with the propsed 14th St. line, which was originally supposed to be elevated east of Montrose. You can read about that here about 1/3rd of the way down the page (search for the word "Myrtle").
That would've made for an interesting elevated junction at this spot. Wouldn't the 14th St line been filled to capacity with trains from Canarsie and Lefferts Ave. already slated to serve the line?
I also agree that the current express trackway should be covered and the entire Wykoff Ave. platform turned into one large island.
I always thought it was kind of dangerous. Actually if you look closely at the "center track" there were two woodened crossovers between the two platforms, presumably before the current concrete one was put there. They may be quite old though, because they line up with stairways (removed recently) at the far ends of both ends of the two platforms....maybe from even before the current stairways were put in for connection to the L train.
This station complex is slated for renovation duiring this 5 year program.
It needs it! I think they may have already started the escalators are being redone. (long walk up from the L train now!) Does anyone know if they are going to make it one big platform, or leave it like it is now: two "express" platforms connected in the middle?
The escalators are already 6 months behind schedule.
Current completion guess Spring 2002 and I look for that to slip.
I do not have specifics on the renovation- Sorry.
I would guess that either an island platform would be installed over the unused trackway, or a windscreen would be erected to protect anyone from falling over the "express" edge of both platforms.
They should at least put something over the gaping hole so that no one can fall to street level by accident.
#3 West End Jeff
Isn't there a central facility for the city's ambulance chasers to report such things? They did something of that sort for potholes some years back; it let them sue the city when one of their clients fell into them. It sounds like a lawsuit in the making.
OK, you professional litigants! Wyckoff Station looks like this week's best bet! ;-)
Maybe if the ambulance chaser lawyers are lucky someone WILL fall through the elevated structure at the Wyckoff Ave. station and the NYCTA will have a multi-million dollar lawsuit to deal with becuase of their stupidity.
#3 West End Jeff
ALRIGHT......... The vote for the most unsafe station in the subway system: And the winner is.........................Wyckoff Station!!!!!!!! In seriousness though, I really think someone can easily fall through to ground level very easily.
Please tell me if someone falls through the elevated structure to ground level at the Wykcoff Ave. station.
#3 West End Jeff
Should we take pictures?........sorry, bad joke.
We should definitely take some pictures of an accident caused by the NYCTAs stupidity.
#3 West End Jeff
Well hopefully they will correct this problem when they rehab the station. I don't see how it can be done without making it a large island platform. Putting a windscreen around the "express" track would be very aesthetically unpleasing.
I like the large island platform better than a windscreen.
#3 West End Jeff
Notice what that rail at Wycoff Ave. is "protecting", a wooden crossover to the other side. When the wood started to decay, instead of replacing the wood, the TA put up the rail to block it off, and as you say, the kids sit on the rail. Worse still, they (adults too) climb over or under the rail and walk on that decaying wood to the opposite side. One of these days, somebody is going to fall to their death onto Myrtle Ave........I have reported the following to supervision many times over the years and nothing has been done. Here I tell people to write letters to the TA, but I really should take my own advise. Seneca Ave. is a rather long station. At the 8 car marker northbound (towards Metropolitan), the train starts into a curve. Because of this, the first door of the first car has an extremely large gap between it and the platform. Seldom does any passenger use this door to enter or exit and thankfully no one has ever gotten hurt. There is a very simple remedy: move the 8 car marker back a few feet. They don't want to do this because now they also have to move the conductors' board. Eventually it will be moved after there is a passenger injury. Hopefully, a crew member won't have to go downtown to pee in the cup, see the TA doctor and be restricted (punished) to the platform pending an investigation.
Perhaps the best remedy is for the TA to remove the old wooden crossover and safety rails and intsall a concrete crossover that would run where the open spaces are.
Bill "Newkirk"
It would also improve the appearance of the station.
"It would also improve the appearance of the station."
The station *has* an appearance?
I'd better look at it the net time I am in town. I haven't taken the Mert to Metropolitan since the mid '60s.
Elias
Boro leadership wanted that el gone since the 1950's. Everyone thought the removal of the el would upgrade the Myrtle Ave. retail district. It only helped to accelerate it's decline.
I agree that both this and the 3rd Ave. el in the Bronx were two lines worthy of keeping. However, both needed massive rehab due to decades of neglect. IIRC, the 3rd. Ave el was falling apart due to heavy subway cars being used on areas too old and insufficiently supported, and certain pillars supporting the Myrtle Ave. el were propped up with temporary wooden supports. Given the climate of the era and the disdain for els, they were dead ducks. If they had survived into the 1980's, community pressure might've saved them, like Franklin Ave. shuttle was.
Back in 1973 population and transit ridership in the Bronx were dropping rapidly; now the opposite is happening. The Bx41 and Bx55 are busy routes now, but they get stuck in traffic, especially around Fordham Road and Gun Hill Road.
As others have posted, the R-39 was supposed to be a car designed for the Third Avenue and Myrtle Avenue elevated lines. I saw a concept drawing once -- it was basically a stainless steel R-36. No cars were ever built, and I don't believe the contract ever went out to bid.
David
Loss of the "Myrt" seems to have been another "improvement" via the elimination of a service, just like the 3rd Ave and Jamaica Elevateds....who cares that the community will now be less accessible. The MTA (or predecessor) wants to save a few $$, and capitalizes on some elitist sensibilities ("the el is so ugly")to do so.
Out here on Staten Island, they started a new bus run back in 1988 (the S61). While it proved an eventual popular success, the initial reaction of the middle-class Heartland Village community was to mount a protest under the guise that "busses kill children". To really make sure the busses didn't roll, they encouraged children to jump onto the front bumpers. What a way to make a safety complaint, huh? (within a year, I saw people who lived along the route actaully using the service- I wonder what would happen if 13 years later, the TA attempted a cut-back?)
Sorry for the rant- it just never ceases to amaze me that people will give up a vital service for a short run aesthetic benefit.
There was, according to J.C. Greller, also an R23 planned for the Third Ave El remnant in The Bronx. I suppose it got as far ass the R39........
No, and that was part of the problem with tearing it down. The El ran through poor neighborhoods so the city didn't give a damn about building a replacement.
Eric D. Smith
The IND crosstown, presently the G, does parallel the Myrtle for part of its route.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Excuse me for asking Kevin, were you working for TA several years ago?
>>Were you working for TA several years ago? <<<
Wrong Kevin...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sorry, I thought you were someone I worked with several years ago. I definately need glasses. (Whoops, I have them!)
Maybe you're filling them with a weak beverage.
I think that was the idea for the GG Crosstown when the city built it.
Considering that the subway was supposed to have gone east of Bedford-Nostrand along Lafayette, Maybe that was supposed to replace the Myrtle El.
Almost all of the IND lines seemed to replace an IRT or BMT (BRT) el.
E/F/R in Queens, the F between Jay and Church, the G north of Myrtle-Willoughby and the A north of 145th St. (especially between 168th and Dyckman) are the only sections of the IND that really augmented mass transit service in New York, instead of simply replacing existing el lines, or in the case of the Rockaways, the former LIRR service.
Actually the IND never really replaced any el lines, rather it forced them out.
How about the Fulton St El, the IND is about 95pct duplicate of the old Fulton L, and the 6th Ave replaced the 6th Ave L in Manhatten
The A north of 145th Street is a short (albeit hilly, in places) walk from the 1.
Washington Heights was the reason why I included it on the list for the area north of 168th -- while the side antrance to the A allows people on Broadway north of 168th the option of either using the A or the 1, people on Fort Washington Ave. have quite a trek up and down to get to the IRT, so for that reason the A does have its use up there, even though on a map the two lines appear fairly rednudant.
Especially at the 191st Stations. No way anyone in their right mind will walk from one to the other. even though on a map it is 3-4 blocks apart. I tried it once and was exhausted. I was a kid then in great shape too
The walk from the south end of Fort Tryon Park to 191st and St. Nicholas is absolutely hill-free, with the help of the station elevators and tunnels. (Both elevators are outside fare control, too.) It's a very easy walk.
Don't want to use the elevators? It's a bit of a climb, but it's certainly doable. The 187th Street step-street is used even with the elevator a few blocks away.
When I was a kid, you paid to ride the elevators then
Interesting. I wonder when and why fare control was moved, thereby providing a free service to the community.
You can use it, but the elevator wouldn't be there unless the IND had been built in the first place.
Okay, so the IND has an elevator to its credit.
Score one for John Hylan :-)
That's actually one of my favorite IND stations.
That was Mayor Hylan s idea to get rid of the BRT Els and then the rest of the Els
Wasn't that Mayor Hylan's idea when he started building the IND?
YUP and then LaGuardias
And Walker had a hand in it as well. Skimming money off for himself.
"Almost all of the IND lines seemed to replace an IRT or BMT (BRT) el."
That was the general idea of the IND. Build a parallel or line underneath a private operation "el" and force 'em out of business. Els were old fashioned, noisy and unsightly. Subways were the way to go. Out of sight, out of mind.
The 8th Ave subway snuffed out the 9th Ave el.
The 6th Ave subway snuffed out the 6th Ave el.
The Fulton St. subway snuffed out the Fulton St el.
Maybe it was the revenge of "Red Mike" AKA John Hylan who hated the BRT/BMT and pushed for public operation of the subways.
However there is one line that didn't involve the IND or Hylan. Low ridership on Brooklyn's 5th Ave el caused it's termination by the BMT 4th Ave subway only a block away.
How about the Concourse subway in the Bronx, it didn't really replace anything I can see.
Bill "Newkirk"
So what snuffed out the 2 avenue el?
WWII, plus the 3rd Ave was only 1 block away and the Lex 2
Plus there as supposed to have been a 2nd Avenue subway built as well. Just after WWII it was just about to be built. Just put the money together and let it go. A bond issue was passed and it almost happened. TA decided to spend the money instead to imptove the rest of the subway that had defered maintaince because of WWII and was falling apart.
"So what snuffed out the 2 avenue el? "
Nothing, they were banking on a 2nd Ave subway to do that..............we're still waiting !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The Concourse line served mainly the West Side, and the Jerome the East side, especially before the 6th Ave was built
It was probably meant to replace the Jerome Av El since it runs parallel to it and pretty close even though it was never discontinued.
As I stated the IRT served the East Side and the IND The West Side,
I think the Concourse IND may have targetted the Jerome Avenue IRT line. Luckily both are still in place.
It is generally stated, and somewhat true, the the Queens Blvd. IND is the one outerborough IND line that didn't try to put an IRT or BMT out of business. However even that line was uncomfotably close to the Jamaica El at its easternmost section. And further west it does seem to duplicate parts of the Corona IRT.
That said, it's a good thing it wasn't built more paralel with either of those lines. Queens needed, and needs, all the different routes it can get.
:-) Andrew
I'm sure it took alot of customers from the Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, and Rego Park (which existed in those days) LIRR Stations when it opened.
Most of the IND lines do look like "replacements" for the old els. At least in some places. However, at least they waited to close the els until after the subway opened. That is what they should have done on Second Avenue also. If they would have kept that running until the new subway way opened, at least there would still be a second trunk line on the east side. The Second Avenue subway may already have been built by now, because if the old el would have lasted a little bit longer, no one would have agreed to allow the city to dismantle it without a subway replacement. The same goes for the Myrtle Ave line.
Welcome to the World of "Three Card Monty" , but with Billion$.
avid
Yeah but that doesn't help people using the J or M lines, unless you are using a "fun pass"
As a kid one of my biggest joys was going to the A&P supermarket on Hall St. and Myrtle Ave. I would stand outside and watch the EL come and go. But no there were never any plans to replace or revamp the EL. They claimed that the merchants and residents along Myrtle Ave. were complaining about the noise and lack of sunshine, unfortunately a pall the likes that no sunshine could ever cure befell the neighborhood. I been away for 14 years now I`m glad to hear the neighborhood is starting to turn around. I still have fond memories of the EL 2 blocks away, the GG 1 block away and the WTC towers outside my kithen window. Also on a clear day on the 8th floor that I lived on you could see the 7 line going into Queensboro Plaza from my bedroom.
Oh, yeah, the Aacckk & Ptooey on Myrtle. Hehehe, I did my "groceries" there for years. It's an Associated now. Most of the shops that were there before the el came down, except for Hollywood Fruits and Vegatbles on Myrt between Classon and Emerson and Adami Hardware, changed hands several times since 1969. Or just went. Not too many people wanted to invest in a bizon Myrtle for years except fried chicken and chinese food joints. Over the past few years there has been a big effort to revitalise the area, mostly because the housing stock has been skyrocketing in prices.
Its neat though to see the various videos that have come out showing my old apartment building or whiz by my old haunts. Actually I'm still around there at least once a week.
Did anyone in the late 1960's make any serious attempt to save the Myrtle Avenue Line? What about the Bronx portion of the Thrid Ave El?
If I remember correctly there was no real effort to save the lines. I think most neighborhood people were glad to get rid of the els and shed light on the streets. I used to ride both lines alot (just to railfan, I really didn't use 'em to go anywhere) and when they discontinued them I wasn't upset about losing the els themself, I only was upset about losing the equipment, such as the Q's on the Myrtle and the Worlds Fair low v's on the 3rd Av el.
The people along 3rd Ave. in the Bronx were promised a subway replacement. Had they known that none was ever to be constructed, they might have fought harder. But at this time, especially in the Bronx, more important battles were being fought. And every night another house burned to the ground.
To the MTA, the 3rd Avenue El looked redundant with the Mount Vernon/Bronx locals. I suppose if they kept it, its air-braked R12's would have gotton likewise retrofitted R17's at the start of the R62A onslaught.
Unless massive overhauls of the el structure were undertaken in the 1970's, the Third Ave. el would've become a trolly line by the time the R62's showed up. The pre dual-contracts part of the line were in horrible shape.
The ONE thing that especially amused me about the line was where a rail had failed on the northbound somewhere around 156th St, just north of the station. They had a 6 or 7 foot section where they had iron strapping mounted on wood until a rail could be cut ... just like the earliest days of railroading ... it was there for almost two weeks before being replaced with a real hunk of iron.
Did anyone in the late 1960's make any serious attempt to save the Myrtle Avenue Line? What about the Bronx portion of the Thrid Ave El?
While I don't believe there was any significant movement to save it, the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue El was not totally forgotten. It was replaced by a free transfer to the Bx55 bus, which lasted until the advent of MetroCard. I would imagine that the free transfer was started in recognition of the fact that the line served some important purpose.
We were all MIGHTY honked off about the teardown of the third avenue el up in the Bronx ... but those were the days of Ronan and NOBODY went up against Ronan and won. Not even the TWU. "It's coming down and that's that - here's a bus. Have a good day."
Opposition was loud and plentiful but nobody was listening. They had the ridership numbers and they weren't good enough. End of story, the study group hath spoken.
There was also a transfer from the B54 to the IND at Jay Street. Non stop all day long. You had to be there to know what it was like.
Intersting how times have changed. Today, I doubt anyone would even SUGGEST tearing down a line. Just look what happened with the Franklin Avenue Line. That's a good change.
On the other hand, hardly anything can get BUILT these days either....Even if MTA were to make a serious attempt to put service on the unused LIRR branches in Queens or SIRT on Staten Island, I can almost hear the NIMBT crowd now...
It was like having a free return fare if you knew how to use it. I got to do my shopping downtown, and get back.
Once the B54 let off (esp if they let the buses bunch up like usual), everyone tried to jam into the same small stairway on the corner, if you didn't get run over crossing the street first.
it sux...they need to build a subway or revive the el...a few years ago, they offered free transfer to the B54 to Jay St to replace it...
can't believe they also did that with the BX55 and the 3rd Av El, and the B42 in Canarsie...
B42 always had a free transfer. In fact the Bus made a direct connection to the 14th Street Line and no transfer was needeed, you went directly into the fare control zone
Still does, and the MetroCard system records a ride on the B42 followed by a ride on the L as a single bus ride.
Has anyone seen this 1988 film starring Jeff Daniels & Kelly McGillis?
In the early part of the film there is a scene on an el station, and the station sign is not completely shown on the screen. What I could see was "t Parkway". I immediately thought of Forest Parkway, but the side platform station does not look quite right, or at least as I remember it from 40 years ago.
Can anyone help as to the identity of the station?
It's Bay Parkway on the F train, by Washington Cemetery.
Thanks!! Along with everything else, I didn't think that Forest Parkway could have grown wider.
The Lexington Aveue Subway Line has to have top security watching, this is the most important line in manhattan cause if its down then Traffic Increases to a mind boggling level (remember the Union Square Crash) if something were to happen on the Lexington Avenue Line where the tunnel or Station get destroyed then there will be a lot to pay. So I say that National Guard should be at Every single lexington avenue line stop in manhattan and in downtown brooklyn.
Somehow I don't think that relative increases in subway crowding weigh very heavily in terrorists' calcuations as to what they target. Symbolic value -- Grand Central, the Empire State Building, the NYSE -- probably carries more weight.
You are getting paranoid
CR
Who will you trust, a blue suited full time NYPD cop, or a BDU dressed part time soldier/airman?
I use to wear BDUs, I trust the cop better.
Phil Hom
Better yet, trust the guy (or gal) with the TA vest and 'U' ID card. It's not the uniform or the gun, it's the heart. "Let MTA get you there," 'we'll get you home.' Peter
Chris,The 8 avenue line is just a bus ride away from the 6.
I'm sorry but this is too much...apart from the 'civil rights issues,' having the National Guard standing post in Lex is truly ludicrous. I am fully aware that we are approaching 'war footing' but NG ain't it, period. Having dealt with 7th Regiment security I can truly say that some schlub with an un understandable foreign accent in a sloppy camo uniform holding a crap-ass M16 with taped mags is not security. Just what would NG patrol for??? Dark skinned Easterns with beards??? Hey, these are the guys I work with in Transit and they love this country. No, the best we all can do is to be vigilant (not vigilante.) If something is going to happen it will...and TA employment requires certain disclosures...so they know who can be called upon IF such situations occured. Years ago when servicing communications for Brinks Armored, I discovered everyone working in the garage carried, even the floor sweepers. NY Subways are the safest mode of travel and the situation is well under control.
That's right, plans have changed. There will be no R-68s to the (G) for the new pick. However the plan will remain to go to (4) car trains. It will be what it is now. All R-46s, All the Time.
Expect a fleet mix on the (F) & (V) lines of R-46s and R-32s. The (E) will basically remain as it is today. Same for the (R).
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Whoah! Back up there...
...You're not saying there will be something other than R46s on the (I'm scared to say it) (F), are you? Even an ocassional R32 would be a nice change of pace!
:-) Andrew
Yes I am sayin' it. There will be that garden variety R-32 car on the (F) from time to time Post-Dec 16th!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Yikes. I haven't ridden an R32 F train since 1994!
Can they change heir minds?
Can they change their minds?
This is the TA. They can do what ever they want, when ever thay want, don't you know. So I quess that we will be seing four "A" unit R46's in the G. That would be very waird to see, Don't you think? Is this happens the will the C/R be in the middle or the back.
Robert
Hey...
I have seen an 8-car (G) train...in fact I RODE it once, from Hoyt-Schemerhorn to Queens Plaza...nothing new...it's just rare, something that doesn't happen too often...
It's possible.
Cleanairbus
Yeah right, when?!?!?!?!?
To date the only cars I KNOW ran the (G) were the R-32s, R-38s (YEARS AGO!) and R-46s. And 8 Cars?!
Trevor Logan
I don't think I know what I ment when I said 4 "A" unit train. I ment that the train is going to be 4 cars long, all "A" car Exp "AAAA" or "ABBA".
Robert
They'll be ABBA with the CR - when ther is one - in the rearmost cab.
Then what are they going to do with the AA sets. I think they will run all A set as well. I guess we will have to wait and see.
Robert
I thought someone said here (like maybe a year ago?) that they didn't like running them ABBA because if there was a problem you couldn't isolate the broken portion of the train and drive the working portion.
Then again, with the way service on Queens Blvd has been lately, they'll probably just tell people that a trian broke, it'll be 2 days before the next train comes, take a bus or walk.
My westbound/southbound E was stuck behind a broken E at 53rd/LEX for about fifteen minutes tday. I was standing at the front car sice I was transferring to the 6. They kept telling us we'd be getting underway shortly.
Once in a while, an 8 car R46 will pop up, but the dispatchers try keep it to an absolute minimum. Sometimes it's because they're short on AA units, or sometimes they'll pull an extra R train and stick it in G service.
49 times out of 50, if they can't put together a 6 car 46, they'll send out a 10 car 32 rather than a 8 car 46. Reason being that the T/O's are so used to making 8 car stops with a 6 car train on a 46, and when a 8 car 46 comes out, short stops are common.
I do recall a FEW Years ago I got on a R-46 on the (G) Line that was a 8 75 Foot Car Trainset. I was on it from 71 Ave to 63 Drive.
Any R32's on the G are always run in 10 car sets, as they are usually "borrowed" from the E fleet and rarely run on the G line for long.
Thats how its been since the early 1990s...I remember when the expresses (E and F) were all R-46s, while the locals (R and G) got the the R-32s and R-38s. -Nick
"Thats how its been since the early 1990s...I remember when the expresses (E and F) were all R-46s, while the locals (R and G) got the the R-32s and R-38s."
Since 1982, R38s have been almost exclusively on the 'A' and, to a lesser extent, the 'C'. The only notable exceptions were during the February 2000 GO when you'd see them on the 'E' when it was extended to Brooklyn, or the 'B'. The last time 38s ran along Queens Boulevard, express or local, was around 1976.
For most of 1990 and 1991, the 'E' and 'F' were solidly R46 as they had been since about 1982. The 'G' and 'R' were a mix of 32s and 46s from the May 1987 switch through fall 1990, when the 'R' became mostly overhauled R46s. In December of that year R32s started running part-time on the 'F' while the rest of the 46s were rebuilt.
The last time I recall seeing a 32 on the 'F' was late winter 1992. They became the staple of the 'E' from 1991 on, while the other three Queens services have been mostly 46s- the 'F' entirely so.
It WOULD be nice to get a railfan window on the Culver el again. It's possible, but rare on the Smith-9th viaduct when the 'G' is a 32.
In June, the T/O opened the cab door on the R46 for some reason. And it wasn't just the 4 inches. This was fully open. Its a fun ride with a window.
The R32's appeared in numbers on the E and F in October 1990 when the R46's were in the midst of their GOH. For over a year, R32's dominated both lines. By mid 1992, the R46's had retaken the F line completely, but they remained on the E, even to this day. Around the same time, the R fleet was made completely R46, as was the G fleet. I NEVER rode anything other than an R46 on either the E or F until 1990, and was stunned to first encounter them.
> will the C/R be in the middle or the back.
I think they will be doing away with the conductor on the 4-car G Trains. Right?
- Lyle Goldman
The G will have C/R's Monday thru Friday only.
I know better, but it just begs the question of what are the geese to do on weekends? Key themselves on? :)
OPTO
So the G train will have conductors on weekdays! That's good.
- Lyle Goldman
How will Queens IND yard handle the G,E,F,R,and V lines without getting any more cars? Unless one of the lines will not be out of Queens...
Well hear is what's happening.....
Weekday Rush and Midday you will have E,F,R,V service.
Weekends and Night Owl Service you will have E,F,G service.
The G will ONLY go to 71st Street on the Overnight. Outside of that the (G) will terminate at Court Square.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Wait a minute. Will the E, F, and G all be running local at night? Do the Queens local stations have any use for 9 tph in the middle of the night?
I believe he meant that the G will run to Forest Hills on weekends, not nights, when the V isn't running. This was done to placate some of the protest to the loss of G service from Brooklyn to Queens Plaza. IMHO, a dumb service plan.
I like the fact that the 63rd St Connection is opening, but I think the service plan is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. All this money for what? It still seems like the "tunnel to no where".
The tunnel is not being used to it's fullest advantage. A connection to a converted Montaulk LIRR/subway line would've made the tunnel much more useful.
The tunnel is not being used to it's fullest advantage. A connection to a converted Montaulk LIRR/subway line would've made the tunnel much more useful.
Yes indeed! Although it's kind of a long way from the 63rd St Tunnel to the LIRR Lower Montauk. It would mean building less extra track if the Lower Montauk were instead connected to the 53rd St tunnel, then one of the Queens Blvd lines runs through 63rd.
:-) Andrew
A converted Montaulk subway line would've been an ideal feeder into Archer Ave, and would've provided access to midtown from southeastern Queens that never went near the Queens Blvd. IND and would've provided service to neighborhoods with no subway access (Maspeth, Glendale). But NIMBY won't allow it.
While were at it, how about:
From the connection at 63rd Drive in Rego Park from the Queens line to the old Rockaway Branch down to Glendale (pretend Glendale isn't a bunch of NIMBY's) to the lower Montauk Branch to the 63rd St Tunnel, then at least we have a good service throught the 63rd St tunnel, instead of this almost useless nonsense they will begin in Dec. (Again I'm not against the 63rd St, it just seems like it doesn't improve much)
An even better idea would be to connect the upper level of Archer Ave to the converted Montaulk, instead of it being a branch off the Queens Blvd. IND. Once the line gets to LIC, a route through the Sunnyside Yard and down into 21st Queensbridge would mean a second direct subway route to midtown Manhattan which has absolutley nothing to do with the E and F lines.
Openning one more connection between Queens and Manhattan can only do so much if there are only two (B-division) lines it can connect to.
What is really needed is more honest-to-goodness new lines in the heart of Queens. Some subway conversion of the Lower Montauk (good luck with the NIMBYs!), and maybe some other creative ideas. I still hold to the idea of a line ("K"?) splitting off from the (L) and staying on Metropoltan Ave then turning onto either Union Tpke or Yellowstone Blvd to Jewell Ave and eventually 73rd Ave, and going as far east as possible within Queens. Sooner or later, they gotta do something for eastern Queens.
In the meantime, having the (F) run on 63rd while the (E) remains on 53rd makes a lot of sense. Those lines should be together for as little a distance as possible to help aleiviate those legenday Queens Blvd line delays.
:-) Andrew
The 63rd St. line when conceived was never meant to hook up with the Queens Blvd. IND, but since it ended "nowhere" (aka 21st St.) they decided to do something with it.
For such a great tunnel, it's a shame even in December, it will still be the "tunnel to nowhere" not connecting to anything new.
But it will provide a 25% increase in Manhattan-bound service for Queens Blvd, albiet local service. A small gain for the billions spent on the tunnel's construction. The same increases could've been instituted by simply removing the G and adding another 60th St. route (the present W line would work, or simply the doubling of R service with alternating service terminating at Whitehall St).
The R runs at 70% of capacity, so the V is unnecessary. The TA knows it, so they will force feed people thru 63rd on the F, replace it with half as many V's, and overstuff the E. The crossing over at QP will be the icing on the cake. If they would simply run the V thru 63rd, the operational nightmare at QP and overcrowing on the E and dangerous platforms loads at Jackson Hts and Lex will not occur.
I think the city will adjust the services so that the V will run thru 63rd. St, as they did with the elimination of the Astoria W express.
The TA web site and TA map still show an Astoria Express, is this no longer the case?
The connection increases capacity between the Queens Boulevard line and Manhattan. Without it, all that's available is the 53rd Street tunnel and less than half of the 60th Street tunnel, which is shared with the N/W. The connection opens up that bottleneck; now the bottleneck is in Queens itself.
I know you are new here, in the past we have discussed this service plan to death. Some people are looking forward to the V. After 2 days they'll be sorry. The Queens IND will be an absolute disaster starting on Monday Dec. 17, 2001 due to all the crossing over and trains cutting each other out at both Queens Plaza and south of 36th St.
The G will also run to Forest Hills at night. The G will run to Forest Hills exactly when it does not run to Forest Hills now.
But the E and F currently run local at night. With the G also running through, will all three run local? I'm guessing one route will revert to express, but I haven't seen anything official.
what are the plans?
I got a quick look at the car assignment roster. The F, G, and V will be all R46, the E will be R32 (of course an R46 will pop up from time to time) and the R will be a mixture of R32 & R46. I am sure additional R32's will be transfered to Jamaica from both Pitkin & CI. All yards will be very tight with the spare factor.
I suppose they will be mixing Phase I and II R32's as they did 9/11-10/27, and the world didn't crack.
TTC is retiring all but 30 H4 cars. Other than regauging, what do you guys think of importing some of them for the G until the R143 are in revenue service in significant numbers ?
You should really cut down to 1,000 milligrams. It's for your own good!
Yep, until the R143 shows up in numbers to allow some R40/R42's to be moved to Coney Island, bumping some of the N's R32's to Jamaica. Can Jamaica handle much more than it's handling now?
More F's stored in CI.
"The (E) will basically remain as it is today"
Does this mean R-46s like it has been since 9/11 (and like it used to be throught the early 1990s), or are we back to R-32s and R-38s? -Nick
no R38s run on the E ...
except during service changes that result in the suspension of the Rush Hour/Middday C
The R-38s did run on the E when they were new. That's where I first saw them in 1967-68.
I graciously offer my services to personally scrap all 196 R38's with my bare hands when that joyfull day arrives. At no cost, either ...
AS always things pretty to look at, tend to be high maintenance.
AS always things pretty to look at, tend to be high maintenance.
Somehow when I first read that I wasn't thinking about trains..............
The thoughts were synonymous to both applications.........
railfan window on the G ?? what would I see folks ??
Scrap my 38's? You do realize that you've made a lot of enemies out of a lot of motormen with that statement. The 38's are the best trains in the system. And I'm talking operation wise.
You must've been a C/R in a prior life. C/R's HATE 38's.
Why do C/Rs hate R-38s? How about R-32s?
Peace,
ANDEE
The reason why C/R's hate 38's is because they are most prevalent on the A line. When a 44 shows up, the C/R gets to sit down in the cab. When a 38 shows up, that means that they have to stand up from 207 Street to Far Rockaway (or Lefferts). Thus, they can't stand 38's. And on the other hand, T/O's can't stand 44's.
C/R's on the C line don't have a problem with 38's since it's either 32's or 38's for them. A seat is available in the cab for them since they operate out of the #1 cab, though it's a no-no for them to sit in the cab, quite a few do it.
Why is it a no-no for them to sit in a cab if it has a seat. I mean really, what's the big deal? As long as they're not sitting when they're in the station.
Peace,
ANDEE
The TA wants the C/R's to remain in full view of the passengers at all times. According to the rules, C/R's are not allowed to sit while in the performance of their duties (even in 44/46/68's) and are to remain in full view of the passengers with the cab light on.
It would seem to me that in some 44/46/68s that it would be impossible to be in full view of the passengers at all times. What with the polorized/blacked out glass/small hole in door, etc., . Doesen't make much sense. Oh silly me, I forgot, this is a TA rule.8-)
Thanks for the answer.
Peace,
ANDEE
So they're required to keep the cab door open?
C/R's are required to keep the door open on all redbirds, 32/38/40/42 equipment. All others have this rule waived.
If anything, that sounds backwards to me, but I don't set the rules.
But you can THINK. Those guys who made that rule and some others like it have a problem doing that. Makes you wonder sometimes.
Is that why many ware safety glasses or shields to protect themselves from kids, etc. spitting or throwing stuff at them ?
I can understand why they need to have their head out the window as they leave the station (so no one gets dragged, etc.), but beyond that what is the TA expecting ... ask him/her a question so he/she can YELL back the answer ... count the lights that are out ... count the full garbich cans ... count how many are Qed up at Token Booth ... count how many ran after a train that was already in motion ?????
Mr rt__:^)
>Is that why many ware safety glasses or shields
>to protect themselves from kids, etc. spitting or
>throwing stuff at them ?
It's required because of that.
The TA requires safety glasses so as to avoid any type of eye injury that could occur whether it be an airborne particle or a thrown object. It's to reduce worker's comp cases.
That's a very old rule. We had it a bit nicer back with the R1/9's in that we'd lean up against the bulkhead or on the cab door since we were required to stand at all times among the geese unless we stepped out for a hasty trigger pull and bottle cap pop. Leaning sure beats plain old standing and the kibbitzing with the chickies made it all worthwhile. Dat monkeysuit got me plenty. :)
How about the BMT Standards ? The conductors in those days didn't have the luxury of a cab to work in, they were amongst the unwashed etc.
He would close down one end of the train, then close the other end of the train and then close the doors he was looking out of. That's three moves there.
Of course there were the rush hours when the next stop the platform was on the other side of the train and he would have to "s'cuse himself" and squeeze his way to the other side.
No that's what I call roughing it !!
Bill "Newkirk"
True, the work was similar but the BMT guys WERE after all, INSIDE the car. They didn't quite have to hang for dear life from grab irons like some subway surfer. :)
What also got me about the standards was that that third move there was (as best I remember, the standards never came to the Bronx) done as blind faith - other ends are closed up and no arms in sight but if I remember the "center door" button, it affected not only the car the conductor was in but other center doors as well, right? If so, no easy way to stick your head out and check that like you had being between cars. I'm probably wrong on this though and it was just the local center door which is OK ... still, you're not watching up and down the train for drags as I remember it ...
Still, being among the geese ... quack quack. :)
"True, the work was similar but the BMT guys WERE after all, INSIDE the car. They didn't quite have to hang for dear life from grab irons like some subway surfer"
What's more hazardous ? On the outside of the car holding grab irons for dear life or being inside the car with the "great unwashed" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess it all depends on how many keys you have on the end of the chain. I know nobody looked at me the wrong way when I carried a brake handle. :)
"I guess it all depends on how many keys you have on the end of the chain. I know nobody looked at me the wrong way when I carried a brake handle"
Oh those lucky conductors who work in those full width cabs who don't have to hold the grab handles for dear life or inhale the great unwashed !
Now that's progress !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Now if we could only equip the transverses with a Murphy bed, I'd come back to work in a flash. :)
Selkirk, it's pretty obvious you really loved your job on the Concourse Line.....why'd you leave?
IMO, BTW, an ex-New Yorker is always welcome back to see how much better the city is these days :)
Wellllllll ... I was a probie at the time and had a little dustup with a train ahead of me in "call-on" status. I was shown the error of my ways and then the exit. In all sincerity, I was really getting to hate the hours and the split shifts and some torment at the time and got a better gig but of course every now and then I get misty for it. Then I come to my senses. :)
I've been back to the city many times over the years but since Rudy it just ain't been as much fun. When Disney took over, it just lost some of the crustiness I liked. I'm glad to see that crime's down and all, don't get me wrong - but the "art" aspect also got tossed out the door as well. I preferred NYC when it was "interesting" ... if I want Disney, I'd prefer to walk in shorts in January. :)
I mean if the G has railfan windows woulds it make a good video shoot ??? .....................
lol !!
correction ... sorry key problems
"correction ... sorry key problems"
Do you and Train Dude have the same keyboard !!! Heh !
Bill "Newkirk"
actually my E key is stuck ...........lol !!!
On the BMT standards, the "Close center side doors" button closed only the center doors in that particular car. When they were retrofitted with multiple unit door controls, the "close end side doors" buttons closed the doors in the entire section of the train; i. e., the one to the left of the "close center side doors" button closed down the section to the left and the one on the right, the other section. All the conductor had to do was insert his key and - presto! - the entire train was all zoned up.
I honestly never saw the conductor by the button consoles in the two years I rode on the BMT standards. The only plausible explanation would be I never rode in the second or fifth cars.
Wasn't sure about the standards - only time I ever rode them was joyrides on the Canarsie line. I suppose that'd work though I'd still feel better having my head out a window or between cars as we rolled out of a station just to be sure.
Just because you're closed up and have indication and a clear trainline doesn't mean that some moron won't try to leap on as you're departing and an inside operating point without a view outside is dangerous in my own mind ...
Cunductors assumed the position on the Triplexes unless it was a single unit train.
Were you ever tempted to stay up on the step plates all the way to the next stop?
Yes, and in fact, I did it once. It really wasn't very scary at all but i wouldn't try it on curves. It was against school car procedures to climb out before the train came to a full stop, yet backing off to the floor after the 3 car lengths was perceived as a riskier operation.
>>> It was against school car procedures to climb out before the train came to a full stop <<<
That sounds like a rule that was broken more often than it was followed. My memories of trains pulling into a station always included the C/R on the steps before the train came to a stop.
Tom
Yeah, if you wanted to keep the schedule, the reality was as SOON as you saw the platform, you already had the gate in your hand, would climb out and "mount up" AS the train was coming to a final stop and had your fingers in the triggers ready to do business when the train stopped and you saw the jail bars. Out there, they were TRULY right in your face and if they weren't you could see where you were and decide whether or not to open up. Sometimes an 8 car train would stop slow and blow the bars ... they'd be behind you - but you KNEW you were 8 cars and that the front doors in the lead were platformed and you'd open up once you calculated it out. Different story when you have a cab wall in your face and can't lean out to check yourself and your guy up front.
Riding between the cars in motion (even in a monkeysuit) was a prohibited activity and if supervision caught ya, it was chill the jets time. You were supposed to step down before you entered the tunnel as there was always the risk of getting smacked by something at the portal. The position wasn't scary at all though - you'd get your "sea legs" in short order and it was actually quite comfortable. But above all else, you didn't screw around on the job. There were too many grumpies out there waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on a crew because the train was late. :)
>>>There were too many grumpies out there waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on a crew because the train was late. :)
<<<
Ahh...the more things change...etc
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. Only difference is that back then, supervision didn't bother to check us for sidearms. I hear they DO now. :)
So everytime I see the C/R sitting out with passangers as the train goes between stops, he's violating policy?
Yes he is. But you can't blame him, standing up for 6+ hours isn't a piece of cake.
This is too funny. I have to stand for 8 hours at my job. Sitting down is not an option, especially when you have a boss who's an @sshole. So I understand completely. The rule is silly.
You certainly have my sympathies Chris. Standing ain't no joke. I remember having to stand for 6+ hours a day as a C/R wearing Timberland Work Boots.
Ever think about coming to work for the TA?
Plus if you are short the 32s are a pain in the ass for you to look out of.
I'll probably get a sound thrashing from my fellow conductors, but I actually prefer R32s and R38s and hate R44s.
With a turn of the key, I can cut out a door on the SMEE equipment. Not so on R44s. And I've found that I don't have strange indication problems happening with 32s and 38s. Plus, since they modified the R44s with those door enablers, all sorts of wacky side effects have been happening on those trains.
I'm probably the only C/R who'll say it, but give me a 32/38 over a 44 any day.
Never been in a 38 cab, but the 32's were just like the Redboids with a little more room. :)
The 38s are similar; the cab is the same size and the controls are the same except that the motorman's indication and air gauge are on the left. On the 32, they're on the right.
Yep - that's what I meant when I mentioned that the 32's were similar to the birds. Same four hole snake head above the gauge too. Made for a great reading lamp when sitting at a homer. :)
I'm talking rider-wise. They're dark, their suspension sucks, and their roofs leak when it rains. It's just my humble opinion, but the suck rocks.
Think happy thoughts - think TARPS ... maybe those "umbrella guys" outside the stations can be hired to walk trains peddling umbrellas ...
I'm talking rider-wise. They're dark, their suspension sucks, and their roofs leak when it rains. It's just my humble opinion, but they suck rocks.
Chris R27/30: Something just dawned on me as far as your statement regarding to the suspensions on 38's. It's the 32's that rock and jump all over the place. 38's give a very smooth ride IMO.
Though the other parts of your statement do have some truth to them.
Rider wise, I think the R38 is a much bumpier ride than the R32.
And I'll do the R44's!
Over my dead body! Those babies will run till they fall apart. So I guess that means they'll be gone by Christmas ...
Terrific. Then we can resurrect the R-10s for service on the A. With nice, round wheels, of course.
Keep the R-38s! Scrap the R-44s instead!
Good luck FINDING the R10's. :)
R32s have made a big return to the (E) since the return of the (N) and (R). They were never totally gone even before.
You never see R38's on the (E), apart from a few (reported) isolated incidents while the (C) wasn't running.
:-) Andrew
railfan window on the G ?? what would I see folks ??
Does anyone know what ever happened to the Monorail cars from the 1964 NY Worlds Fair?
Do they still exist in a museum somewhere or are they scrap?
I think they were scrapped in '65' or '66'.
Eric D. Smith
At least one car exists in Texas... here's a webpage with some information and a photo.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well at least that one car still exists.
They were moved to Springfield and were briefly used for the ill-fated monorail there (the beam is still visible from Mt. Springfield).
That is true! When it was speeding out of control with Homer at the controls, didn't the sticker peel off to reveal the "New York World's Fair" logo?
Try this out, it's the New York World's Fair website.
http://www.nywf64.com/amf01.html
Bill "Newkirk"
At least I got an answer as to why the NY State Pavilion was retained. It certainly is in sad shape right now. And to think we didn't go up in any of the towers during our visit to the fair in 1965.
The Unisphere is certainly a landmark in that area. It still looks pretty good.
It seems that on all the #7 trains, the end lights have all been turned off. This includes the local/express indicators, the #7 bullet, and the red markers. Only the destination sign faintly glows.
At first I thought a circuit breaker on one train must have flipped, but it's this way on all of them. When the train pulls into the station, the top of the front car is dark; only the headlights show. This makes it even harder than usual to determine whether it's a local or express.
Why????
Maybe they unscrewed the lights?
"This makes it even harder than usual to determine whether it's a local or express"
They do not want you to know that it is an express until after you have missed your station.
ET
I'll be on the 7 later. I'll ask one of the motormen. They'll obviously know why. I noticed the same thing last night, while waiting for a n/b local at Woodside.
How many trains have you referred to? Do you actually know that the T/A has turned them off completely?
I know Redbirds on the #5 and #2 have them lit. On the #2 I saw "EXP" lit.
I saw "LOCAL" lit on a train once too.
AFAIK, it's just on the 7.
What does AFAIK mean?
I think it means as far as I'm concerned. Also I've seen this on all of the # 7 cars for the past few months. Why-I have no clue but my assumption is that:
Well let's say that car 9542 was 1st s/b. They decide to make it 3rd.
Whoever connects cars to cars, they sometimes forget to turn off those lights. I think that's the reason why they're off now.
#9749 7 Flushing Local
I think someone said that it's done automatically when the cars are coupled.
Headlights/taillights are done automatically when the trains are coupled. Similarly, the endsigns are also done by coupler switches. Marker and route signs such as on the redbirds are done via three toggle switches in the adjacent cab.
1) Marker
2) Route
3) Express/Local
No, it means...
As
Far
As
I
Know
Notice the first letters....the "K" does not mean "concerned".
Hope this helps....
AFAIK = As far as I know
I ve asked some T/Os about the marker light situation: the marker lights are nothing but trouble. The lights are history. Get used to it. They will be like this from now on. I know its very sad. I also heard their fuses have been yanked. The ML R 36s are now reciving corona stickers. As well as American flags. The ML R 36s are here to stay.
The fuses on the end sign lights were removed and will not be replaced because the end sign light resistors were burning up. Rather than fix the problem, Corona Barn eliminated the problem by disabling the end sign light all together. Sheesh.
The fuses on the end sign lights were removed and will not be replaced because the end sign light resistors were burning up. Rather than fix the problem, Corona Barn eliminated the problem by disabling the end sign light all together. Sheesh.
Brilliant. Just f@*&ing brilliant. To make it easier on maintenance staff who don't like replacing resistors, the TA makes it harder on actual PAYING CUSTOMERS to figure out what their train is.
Is there an engineering fix in the works? Is this a case where the resistor was underspecced by the manufacturer?
This makes me angry. And I don't even ride the 7 much. Just leaving the end lights off in perpetuity seems like a return to the bad old days of "They'll take whatever we give/don't give them. They're riders. They HAVE to take the subway." I'd like to think that somewhere there's a TA person working on a FIX for this diminution of service ....
There's probably NO fix in the works. Because the R36's days are numbered anyway, the repair of the end sign problem is probably viewed as unnecessary. Only the major problems are being attended to.
Yep ... that's what I remember in the doomed cars I was on as well and as much as folks don't like it, it DOES make sense really. No sense tossing good money after bad when it's better spent on new toys.
Heheheh, my sentiments exactly. That's why I just went out and bougth a new computer. The old P-II 200MHz just needed too many things to bring it halfway to what I need....and had Windows 95 on it anyway, so it couldn't have accpeted one thing I needed (USB ports). So, I figured it was time to stop spending on the "ol' heap" of a computer and just go out and get a new toy. Now figuring out this Widnows XP is gonna take a few days.....
My most profuse sympathies ... you're going to discover that XPee is to OS's what the 142's have been to the 207 St shop. More time spent rebooting than running. You'll see, especially when you run into "permissions" arguments ... been making us absolutely crazy here at the software wirebarn where I work. :)
Never thought even Microsoft could release something buggier than "Mini ME" ... live and loin.
>>> you're going to discover that XPee is to OS's what the 142's have been to the 207 St shop <<<
When I saw Bill Gates on TV telling us how XP had finally overcome the reliability problem, I couldn't help but think of Lucy holding the football each fall for Charley Brown. Good luck to all who rushed out to buy XP.
Tom
Yep ... that's what I remember in the doomed cars I was on as well and as much as folks don't like it, it DOES make sense really. No sense tossing good money after bad when it's better spent on new toys.
There's no such thing as a free lunch. There are real costs associated with not having the end markers, not just passenger convenience.
Suppose that because of the lack of these markers it took an average of 4 seconds more loading time during the pm rush hour at each of the stations between Times Sq and Queensboro Plaza. This figure does sound reasonable. What is the extra cost associated with this accumulated delay?
The average operating cost for a car in vehicle revenue service is: $119.47/hr. There are 11 cars/train; 50 trains/day and 7 stations.
Operating expense per train is: $119.47 x 11 = $1314.17/hr.
Operating expense per second is: $1314.17 / 3600 = $0.3650472/sec
Additional operating time per train is: 4 x 7 = 28 sec
Additional operating expense per train is: $0.3650472 x 28 = $10.221321
Additional operating expense per day is: $10.221321 x 50 = $511.06605
Additional operating expense per week is: $511.06605 x 5 = $2555.3302
Additional operating expense per month is: $2555.3302 x 4.3 = $10,987.919
If that extra $10K were charged to the Corona Shop and not to operations, how soon do you think it would take those end lights to be fixed?
>>> What is the extra cost associated with this accumulated delay? <<<
There is one major flaw in your logic. You are making the assumption that the operating cost per hour of $119.47 remains linear over small changes in time. There is no evidence of that. The cost per hour is derived by taking the total costs and dividing by the total car hours in revenue service. As long as the increase in time is small enough not to cause additional labor costs such as overtime or additional crews, slowing the trains should do nothing but lower the operating cost per hour.
Tom
There is one major flaw in your logic. You are making the assumption that the operating cost per hour of $119.47 remains linear over small changes in time.
No, I'm calculating a sample mean by invoking the Law of Large Numbers.
>>> No, I'm calculating a sample mean by invoking the Law of Large Numbers. <<<
Please explain to my how the Law of Large Numbers will keep the costs per revenue hours constant, and therefore a loss of speed will cause a rise in the costs per revenue mile? Does it follow that if we could get rid of the various timers which reduce operating speed, and therefore operate the trains faster that again the costs per revenue hour will remain constant and reduce the costs per revenue mile? Intuitively it seems that the costs per revenue mile would be more likely to remain constant than the costs per revenue hour.
Tom
Please explain to my how the Law of Large Numbers will keep the costs per revenue hours constant, and therefore a loss of speed will cause a rise in the costs per revenue mile?
For the record, the Law of Large Numbers shows how a sample mean will approach a population mean. Most importantly it depends on the number of items in the sample and not the number of items in the population. It is the statistical justification for sampling.
I chose a small sample of 50 train runs per day out of a population of thousands. I used the population averages to estimate what a small change in operating characteristics on a small sample would affect the sample's opeating cost. I did not attempt to extrapolate these results to change the population's characteristics.
Does it follow that if we could get rid of the various timers which reduce operating speed, and therefore operate the trains faster that again the costs per revenue hour will remain constant and reduce the costs per revenue mile? Intuitively it seems that the costs per revenue mile would be more likely to remain constant than the costs per revenue hour.
This was not a question I attempted to answer. However, let me attempt to illustrate some implications for a change in population characteristics.
First, cost/vehicle-hour is related to cost/vehicle-mile by the average vehicle speed. Second, some costs are proportional to hours travelled, e.g. labor; some costs are proportional to miles travelled, e.g. rolling stock maintenance and some are fairly constant, e.g. station related expenses. Any change in operating characteristics will change one or more of these cost categories, sometimes in unintended ways.
It was discovered that the brakes on many trains were deficient on a lot of the rolling stock, shortly after the Williamsburg Bridge accident. NYCT had 3 options to remedy the situation: they could have improved the brakes to bring them up to 1918 standards; they could have reworked the signal system in about 500 locations to reflect the stopping power of the existing brakes or they could have reduced the maximum attainable speed on the equipment to a rate in which the existing brakes would safely stop the trains in all locations. The third alternative was chosen as being the most "cost effective" by the cash starved TA. Was it?
Most run times were lengthened by 10%. This meant that 10% more trainsets were required to deliver the same service levels at peak times. The trainsets did not exist. The number of spares was reduced, which required a reduction in repair time. Service was reduced on most lines. This caused such crowding that additional platform conductors had to be added. The cost of adding additional service was increased and a car shortage suddenly appeared. Moreover, these costs are recurring whereas the first two alternatives: fix the brakes or fix the signals were a one shot expense.
Perhaps somebody down at Jay St is listening to the wrong study group. But I can tell ya that expressing a situation in terms of P/L doesn't impress folks who have to answer only to politicians ... somewhere, someone's penning up all the money they saved by not filling in requisition forms for parts, and someone else is citing reduction in manpower for maintenance resulting in big savings. And someone upstairs is giving them the old touchy-feely "good job!" after reading the executive review.
Oughta spend some time in the sausage factory to see how it's done. Your numbers would constitute "bad attitude" inside the circle. :)
I am annoyed to see those lights off, just as I'm annoyed that
marker lights are not used in the system anymore. BUT, don't
get ridiculous with these bogus calculations down to the decicent.
There are several holes in your theory large enough to fit a
GG1 through.
First, I hightly doubt that not having the end marker lights (which
convey no information these days), local/express sign and
end route sign illuminated results in a 4 second delay per station.
What is the basis of this assumption? Do passengers hold the doors
for 4 extra seconds as an act of civil disobedience and protest?
Is the motorman delayed 4 seconds answering questions from passengers
about the routing of the train? This is a key assumption, and
I don't understand at all what you base it on.
Second, even if the train did lose 28 seconds in the run because
of this, it is not reasonable to extrapolate an added cost of $10.
The operating cost per train per hour is obviously just the total
operating cost of the fleet divided by the number of operating
hours. It doesn't necessarily follow that a small increase in
the run time of one train will cause a linear increase in cost.
This is because there are non-linearities, or in fact inefficiencies,
built into the schedule. If the train loses 28 seconds, it doesn't
result in a late clear for the crew (and overtime costs), it
doesn't require a schedule adjustment, etc. ,etc. I would say
a more reasonable estimate is that the cost of a 4 second station
delay is simply the cost of running the lights, HVAC, converter,
etc. (i.e. everything except traction power) for those 4 seconds.
And third: You neglected the cost savings by NOT having those
bulbs drawing power. The circuit on SMEE cars consists of a series
string of 5 36 watt, 120V street railway bulbs (they are the
two marker light bulbs, the two end route sign bulbs, and either the
LOC or EXP sign bulb). Also in the series string is a 400 ohm
resistor, the purpose of which is to reduce the intensity of the
bulbs, reduce heat in the sign compartments (which damages the roller
curtain material), and increase bulb life. The total power draw
for the string, which operates from the 600V line, is 150 watts.
If you assume that a given train spends about half its time in
service and half laid up (and therefore with those lights turned off),
then each end of the train consumes 1.8 kWH per day.
Let me address your concerns.
Point One. I was on the Flushing Line last week, between 4 and 5 PM at Grand Central. I was unable to determine whether the approaching train was a local or express. The side signs on the first few cars were inconsistent, which is not uncommon. People hesitated before entering, waiting for an announcement on the PA system, which never came. My seat of the pants estimate for this accumulated time for this hesitation is 4 seconds. This was repeated at the other stops just as I assume that it was repeated at Fifth Ave and Times Sq. On the overestimate side, I included only the trains from 4 to 6 PM. The theory being that at other times there was not congested loading present.
Point Two. As I had mentioned in a previous post, this is a sample mean estimate. I could develop a deterministic model and run a Monte Carlo simulation. Such a model would have to include the following scenerio. It takes about 1 minute for the trains to clear the switches at Main St and the local at Willets Point. Sometimes a train being 28 seconds late will cause it to miss its time slot over the switch. This will cause delays of over 1 minute. This will cascade and cause the 5 to 10 minute terminal delays that are not uncommon at Main St and Willets Pt. These delays do not occur all the time. They do occur often enough to be annoying and when they occur they involve a real expense.
I am interested in the average cost, not the cost for individual runs. I can use the Law of Large Numbers without recourse to a deterministic model and Monte Carlo trials to determine averages. I chose this method, which involves less work. Even though it is less satisfying intellectually, it is valid.
Point three. Your point is well taken. There are savings in not providing service. In this case assume assume the cost of $0.10 per kwh. There are 30 trainsets.
The cost savings for each train is: 1.8 x 0.10 = $0.18 / day
The cost savings for the fleet is: $0.18 x 30 = $5.40 / day
The cost savings for the fleet for a month is: $5.40 x 30.4375 = $164.36
The error is 1.6% of the total estimate. That's a micro-miniature GG1. :-)
I was
unable to determine whether the approaching train was a local or express. The side signs on the
first few cars were inconsistent, which is not uncommon. People hesitated before entering, waiting
for an announcement on the PA system, which never came.
So a simple PA announcement could have saved $10?
Isn't this more the fault of poor side signs? What percentage
of the confused people would have observed the LOC/EXP light
during the brief window that it was visible to them? There
should also be a redundant source of this information in the
form of the end route roller curtain sign. Although it too was
not illuminated, that should not have materially affected its
readability in this age of modern, fluorescent-lit stations.
Point Two. As I had mentioned in a previous post, this is a sample mean estimate.
Based on how many samples? You gave a figure of X dollars per
train-hour as an operating cost. What was that based from? Was
it not simply the total operating cost for a given fiscal year
divided by the total fleet operating hours? In order to claim that
X is really a mean, you would need to have collected a lot more
samples.
Since most of the Flushing line is outdoors, I would also wonder why the signs wouldn't be readable outdoors unless it was after dark. I would have gone in this direction but Stephen is more into the statistical analysis end of the equation, something I'm not prepared to comprehend much less argue.
Stephen: I agree with you that the equipment should be functional, just on a basis that proper maintenance of equipment means that when the unit comes in for PM (preventative maintenance) the ailing resistor should be changed just on the basis of "bad order" though I wouldn't yank a train just on that alone. Since a fleet decision has apparently been made here, I personally have a problem with that although I don't comprehend the fiscals (never was my job - as a techie my argument was "I don't care what this costs, you NEED it" and let wigs overrule me. I walked away with a requisition with my name on it and the "tongue is a lawnmower" types went after the wigs who signed off on their contraventive decisions. No my yob. :)
Since most of the Flushing line is outdoors, I would also wonder why the signs wouldn't be readable outdoors unless it was after dark.
We are talking about those stations where the Flushing bound express and local trains share the same track. The only outdoor stations fulfilling this criterion are: Court House Square and Queensboro Plaza. At each station the sun is behind the approaching train. The train creates its own darkened shadow and both the marker and exp/loc lights are quite visible.
...a fleet decision has apparently been made here, I personally have a problem with that although I don't comprehend the fiscals (never was my job - as a techie...
My background is also technical. However, some of my responsibilites were to cost justify capital expenditures. This introduced me to some of the financial legerdemain.
It's fairly difficult to save money. It's far easier to shift expenses to another account, preferably one that not the proposer's responsibility. :-)
AH! You DO understand how it all works in the great sausage factory. And yes, the suits visit whatever department the fiscal hot potato lands in. That's why it won't be YOURS. That's how government "works." :)
So a simple PA announcement could have saved $10?
Not quite. It takes about 20 seconds for a train to come to a stop, once it has entered the station. The end markers give the people waiting on the platform time to make a board/no board decision prior to the train stopping. The side signs are not readable until a few seconds before the train stops. The conductor's PA announcement is not made until after the train has stopped. The idea is to use as much of the available time before the train stops to alert the people on the platforms what their actions should be while the train is platformed. That way they will have made their decisions beforehand and time consuming indecision/hesitation will not extend dwell time.
The Identra signs worked quite well. They lit up exp or loc as soon as the train entered the station.
Based on how many samples? You gave a figure of X dollars per train-hour as an operating cost. What was that based from? Was it not simply the total operating cost for a given fiscal year divided by the total fleet operating hours?
The base figure I quoted was an operating expense of $119.47/vehicle revenu hour. This figure was supplied by the NYCT via the USDOT and the National Transportation Database for the year 2000. It is indeed the total operating expemse of approximately $2.09 billion divided by the total vehicle revenue hours of 17.497 million.
In order to claim that X is really a mean, you would need to have collected a lot more samples.
Suppose there are N individual vehicle trips per year and each one consumed Ti hours and cost Ci dollars. How does one calculate the average of Ci/Ti? How does one weight the value of a short trip on the 42nd St Shuttle vs. one on the A train to Far Rockaway? I'd suggest an average weighted by the trip duration. Thus the average becomes:
Avg(Ci/Ti) = Sum([Ci/Ti] x [Ti/Sum(Ti]) (1.0)
Let Sum(Ti) = T, the total vehicle revenue hours. Then the
equation (1.0) becomes:
Avg(Ci/Ti) = Sum([Ci/Ti] x [Ti/T])
Avg(Ci/Ti) = Sum([Ci/T])
Avg(Ci/Ti) = Sum(Ci)/T (1.1)
Let Sum(Ci) = C, the total operating cost. The equation (1.1) becomes
Avg(Ci/Ti) = C/T (1.2)
N.B. I have included every single run for the year in calculating the average cost per vehicle revenue hour. Not surprisingly, (1.2) is the same value as taking a single run that is the total cost divided by the total vehicle revenue hours.
What about the monthly sample? There were:
50 trains/day x 5 day/wk x 4.3 wk/mo = 1075 trains.
This number of samples should be sufficient to overcome any argument that the monthly averages are not based on a sufficient number of observations.
Yeah, the toilet seats were nice. Too bad they were discarded.
I'll repeat my point about the end route sign. Since the
sign should be visible and carries a distinctive circle
vs diamond mark, the LOC/EXP light is redundant. Back in the
days when the route sign was a simple numeral, that sign was
needed to disambiguate.
I continue to disagree about your mathematics. The issue is not
really whether $1000/hr or whatever is an accurate average or
not. By taking that number and then multiplying by a different
number of hours to arrive at the cost, you are effectively
linearizing the relationship between cost and run time. You still
have only one sample, or to be more precise, one point on the curve
based on an average. You haven't shown that this relationship is
in fact linear in any way. It is also likely that the cost of a
run is a function of many more variables. In order to arrive
at an even vaguely reasonable estimate of the increased cost due
to adding 28 seconds to the run, you need to have a cost model
that addresses the component of cost due purely to run time.
An analogy: say it costs me Z dollars per year to operate my
automobile. I could say "hey, I spent T hours in the car, so
my cost per hours is Z/T", or I could say "I drove M miles,
and the cost per mile is Z/M". I could also say "I consumed
G gallons of CocaCola while driving, so my cost is Z/G per
gallon of soda". All of these seem to vaguely correlate with
how much I use the car, but a single point correlates with any
curve, so how do I predict what my costs would be if I drank the
same amount of soda, covered the same mileage, but took twice as
long to do it? I could pick any one of these oversimplified
relations to answer the question and they'd all be way off.
Well hopefully the 7 will get the R62's soon so this won't be a problem.
It would be R-62As, not R-62s (since there aren't enough R-62s to replace the current #7 fleet), and no decision has been made as to what cars will be assigned to Corona Shop to replace the Redbirds.
David
I find your explaination a bit hard to fathom. The cars are in service for over 35 years and all of a sudden the ballast resistors are burning? That does not fly. There's got to be more to it than that. Where did you get the information? Your response had its predictable results as seen in the expected response by JV.
I got my explanation from one of the car inspectors at Corona Barn. The resistor is a 600v. resistor located overhead next to the emergency brake magnet valve in the #1 cab. It actually has been a problem for years. The resistor would burn out creating smoke in the cab and result in that train being taken out of service and running lite to the yard. Many T/O's simply would not realize that the problem was with the end sign resistor and turn off the end sign. I guess they are not trained today to diagnose a problem, just report it and follow the Control Center's instructions. Anyway, rather than have this problem happen repeatedly the barn decided to eliminate the problem altogether. There are stickers next to the end sign circuit breaker saying "Fuse Removed Do Not Re-Fuse). Sorry, that's the way it was explained to me.
I know where the resistor is and the little metal cage around it. What I don't understand is why after over 35 years, this resistor should start failing in such quantities that it's being ignored. I can see that since the #7 is a locked line someone deemed it unnecessary but but I would tend to discount the car inspector's explaination.
Well, since the prime directive here is speculation, my bet is that the original bulbs were no longer made and replaced in later years with bulbs with the same base but higher current required by the filaments. The additional current requirements of newer lamps created more of a voltage drop across the resistor resulting in I2R wattage dissipation that baked the little dears.
Sorta like your MTH problems ... only higher wattage.
For the record, I also came up with the same idea at first. Ah, but if that were the case, the same problem would exist on the #2, #4 and #5 lines - all running redbirds and all with marker lights. There's something more at foot here.
I agree with you that it's a bizarre solution (not for the TA) but I have heard this from two different C/I's. Let me know if this begins to happen on the other lines that operate redbirds. Remember, each barn operates a little diferently. Corona got a new barn chief last year. Maybe this is his solution to the problem.
In the past year, E180th St and 239th St also got new barn chiefs. Pelham Barn Chief is in place for just over 2 years. Don't remember when the Jerome barn Chief took over. I see no corrolation but I'll be asking about it when I get back after vacation.
Well, I did insert the standard disclaimer here about it being pure, worthless speculation ... but if it was MY maintenance headache, first thing I'd figure out is what the total current of the lampsets were as originally spec'd, measure what they wanna draw now and compare. If it isn't that situation, then I'd have to guess STEEL DUST is drawing more current than it should, wait 'til everybody's gone and spray a LOT of trichlor around the sockets, check for missing gaskets and wire with bad insulation through holes, that kinda stuff.
When a resistor smokes, it's because it's unhappy ... transient abuse or a permanent current bridge around it ... something's wrong. :)
I tried to hook a resistor once between my transformer and the track to see if it made any difference with Flyer trains. Except for one thing - I forgot how much current those locos draw. Next thing I knew, that resistor was toast. Loved the smell....
Yep - smells like victory ... gotta be careful picking your wattage for those things - it's current SQUARED which quickly gangs up on an underrated resistor and makes it go primitive - right back to smoke signals. :)
A half-watt resistor doesn't stand a chance when you've got a loco which draws 1.5 - 2 amps.
Ummm ... no ... and chances are a 5 watt wirewound would be unhappy too.
Someone had posted something about "House on Carroll Street" earlier and it just reminded me of "Eve of Destruction". There are alot of scenes in the subway. There is a station that they call Lexington Avenue, which I don't think it is. I do however think it is a real station. Does anyone know what station that really is. They use a lot of R40 slant noses in that movie. They have "F" on the front.
Did anyone see this movie? It's not that old.
I have a copy of the movie. BART scene at the beginning is better than the NYCT scene at the end. R-40 doesn't look real.
Maybe not. The station seemed real, but obviously isn't "Lexington" Avenue, but I thought the F40 seemed real, at least the exterior shots. Why, out of all the types of cars on the subway would they choose to copy an F40 slant nose. It's not what most people think of when they think of a NYC subway train.
Well, it seems my wife finally went over the edge. After being sick on and off since 9/11, disrupted sleep, and overwork, she left work on time today and was on her way to pick up the kids at school.
Then waited on the A train platform at Broadway-Nassau for 40 mintues, getting more and more sick, more and more upset. A service was cancelled. There were no annoucements, just a note in the booth two sets of stairs up.
What happened?
There was a power off situation in the Cranberry St. Tube.
Where is the Cranberry St. tube? A power off in the entire tube?
That's what Control said. First they said a flood condition, them a smoke condition, then just power off. I don't know the actual details, just what I had heard.
Sounds like they killed the power for the Fire Dept to go in.
Cranberry Tube is between Broadway-Nassau and High St-Brooklyn Bridge.
Last night I got around to uploading photos that I took on June 24, before I was aware of free websites for photos.
They include shots of the Reading FP-7's and a number of cabooses behind a hardware store in Pocopson, Pa; shots of grown men riding on miniature steam engines (and a GG1 and a diesel yard switcher) at the Pennsylvania Live Steamers Association open house near Collegeville, Pa; and shots around the Pureland Industrial Complex near Swedesboro, NJ (I-295 exit 10), where SMS, the local switching railroad, has a stable of Baldwins. The thumbnails finish up with the Deepwater and Paulsboro moveable bridges and some Conrail diesels in Paulsboro.
Some pretty neat train photos
Whats A flexliner?
A Danish built diesel rail car. It was tried by Amtrak and others. Israel uses them.
There's also an electric Flexliner and electric and diesel Flexliners can be operated in the same train. Amtrak should have considered them for the Hartford/Springfield line. Then they would be able to keep through service to New York, Philly and DC without having to change power at New Haven instead of reducing the Inland Route to a mere shuttle.
Flexliner description from Amtrakwest
Flexiliner is a DMU / EMU series that allows a lot of flexibility. A 3 car (articulated?) set can be coupled to another in minutes - even while the train is moving. A 3 car DMU set gets 2.5mpg, which is pretty good. Top speed is 112mph. I'm not sure what the acceleration is, but most european equipment blows US stuff out of the water.
The acceleration on the "Flexliner" that Amtrak tried was OUTSTANDING!!
I rode it when they were testing it on the San Diegans....I was thoroughly impressed with the train. Acceleration was something to behold, it rode smooth, and braked smooth.
Now if only they could have gotten rid of that bicycle horn it had.....wasn't worth a shit for grade crossings (which there are PLENTY of on the San Diego line....though they are working to eliminate many.)
This may have been done before but, who has the best Subtalk handle?
My vote goes to...
Well, let's see how the voting goes and see if it agrees with me.
I'm not voting for myself BUT when I had to find a name or handle for SubTalk, I had been enthralled with the chant at Coney Islands shops. Instructor Allan Martindale at PS 248 taught us how to announce application of the 'bug' to carbody.....bang on the door, yell out 'on the juice,' plug in the 'bug,' yell out 'on the juice' again and engage the knife switch to power up the car. Mr. Martindale was up at my shop Thursday for something...I dropped my work to find him to say hello and thanks...but forgot to plug my handle. Peter
I vote myself the BEST western region transit photographer & BEST WESTCOAST subtalker here !!!
& this is proff I am # 1 out here !!! ....................>>>> lol !!!
ITS AWFUL LONLEY BING # 1 OUT HERE ....lol!!!!
I concede. LOL!
Nice shot of portal at 10th/Fig.
.......Love your handle !!!
Thanks. Meant 10th/Flower. Thanks though.
Wow, I haven't been to Long Beach in a while. I didn't realized the LIRR stopped using M-1's & M-3's on the Long Beach Branch. And no more third rail!!!
'''..overhead.."" a light rail wire ...
Nice shot....
Dontcha think they should have painted the stripes BLUE on the Blue Line, though? (And GREEN on the Green Line, for that matter?)
yep !! it dos have a large gold design with a SMALL blue letter etc... added to it ( oh well ) ......
yep !! it does have a large gold design with a SMALL blue letter etc... added to it ( oh well ) ......
It's just my opinion. but I think you laugh too much in your posts.
sorry just trying to maintain a good spirit .....
Pete, why is salaam the only person who's post you ever criticize is it because you don't like his post or because you don't like his religion. Do to your prior bigoted post about Islam and Muslims I feel I must ask.
Excuse me, did I EVER say that I was against or critizing salaam?
I'm just commenting on it.
Please relay me my posting and e-mail it to me regarding Muslims and such. You've gone on with this for too long. Send me the postings, then I will clear it up for you.
Excuse me, did I EVER say that I was against or critizing salaam?
I'm just commenting on it.
Please relay me my posting and e-mail it to me regarding Muslims and such. You've gone on with this for too long. Send me the postings, then I will clear it up for you.
Dear Pete...lol...lol...lol
CHill...lol...lol...lol
I and salaam, as well as everyone else can laugh as much as we want...lol...lol...(sorry, salaam, if u feel like i'm mocking you... just getting my point across to pete)
hey man I am here to learn as wll as "lol" & having fun !! rail transit is a very interesting subject even to a 50 + year ol'
like me !!!.....................................of cource end this post with ..........@........lol ..!!!
hey man I am here to learn as well as "lol" & having fun !! rail transit is a very interesting subject even to a 50 + year ol'
like me !!!.....................................of cource end this post with ..........@........lol ..!!!
no problem here at all folks laugh loosen up enjoy this wonderful forum thanks to the webmaster MR DAVID PIRMANN!!
& I will continue to ask questions...LOL...
& phraise my beloved "redbirds'...lol !!
"Dontcha think they should have painted the stripes BLUE on the Blue Line, though? (And GREEN on the Green Line, for that matter?)"
Isn't one consist painted in the Pacific Electric scheme ? Maybe they'll discover that it's not such a bad livery and paint them all that way.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think there are two trainsets.
its funny the original blue line car had blue & purple stripes on a white background !! ....figure that !!!
& i think some off red stripe as well !!! .........................lol !!
if you want i can dig up a good picture of this !!! ..........??
>>> Dontcha think they should have painted the stripes BLUE on the Blue Line, though? (And GREEN on the Green Line, for that matter? <<<
At one time the Blue Line trains were blue, but a different paint scheme would reduce the ability to interchange the equipment between the two lines. What I have observed is the newest cars are on the Green line, and older Green line equipment has been transferred to the Blue line, with the original blue cars running only during rush hours on the Blue line, often intermixed in the same consist with Yellow stripe cars. The most interesting train is one in P.E. Red livery which I have seen a few times and Salaam has pictures of posted on his web site.
Tom
I vote myself the BEST western region transit photographer & BEST WESTCOAST subtalker here !!!
& this is proff I am # 1 out here !!! ....................>>>> lol !!!
ITS AWFUL LONLEY BEING # 1 OUT HERE ....lol!!!!
oh well !!
The best ever handle is LIAR to New York Pig Station.
My vote goes to American Pig...what looks like a parody on the movie "American Pie" and changing a letter...LOL...but then again...when I first posted here, I so loved "Its-that-Flxible-Metro", that just rang a bell to me...
My vote goes to "It's-that-Flxible-Metro"
Cleanairbus
I gotta vote for heypaul. It's short, it's sweet, it has a definite personality, and you don't forget it.
He's got my vote, too, but AFAIK he's not posting here anymore. If he wins, we'll have to let him know On the Other Side of the Tracks.
Like me, our crazy friend heypaul has been sniffing the diesel fumes over at his Yahoo club greyhoundthroughexpress......oh yeah..Im BAAAACK
1 vote for Engine Brake
1 vote for Humans the Deli Best. LMAO!
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
I've always been intrigued by the handle "David Pirmann." Imagine
what his real name must be!
Subway grrl
"I've always been intrigued by the handle "David Pirmann." Imagine
what his real name must be"
I do believe you just answered your statement !
Bill "Newkirk"
I wonder how many people think your real name IS Newkirk?!
I think that's why he "quotes" it in his signature. For a long time I thought it was his real name -- and it was a nice coincidence that he happened to share a name with a subway station.
Not to mention his publishing enterprise......
>>> I've always been intrigued by the handle "David Pirmann." <<<
Even if it isn't the best handle, it is certainly the most important SubTalk handle.
Tom
I've always been intrigued by the handle "David Pirmann." Imagine
what his real name must be!
Mark S. Feinman :) :)
--Dave
sorry I couldn't resist .....
I vote for one of the following:
Joe Camel
Me, Myself and I
MEMYSELFANDI (and Memyselfandi)
idnaflesymem
The NO series (ie NO TRANSIT, NO TOPICS including just NO)
Jack Arthur
Jack Arthur aka School Bus Hater
Eugenius D. Train
Eugenius D. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius V. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius V. Train
Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island
Beyond Reason
Defy Reason
Defy Reason on SubTalk: Countdown to DOOM begins
Defy Reason on SubTalk -10 (and -9, etc.)
Defy Reason on SubTalk is no longer
From the banks of the river stownz
A post it note
A post it note in favor of the R-142
I've been a bad post-it note
I won't be a post-it note for long!
I'm not a post-it note anymore!
Paper is Ephemeral
Humans: The Deli Best
Humans: The Bombay Best
Humans: The Bombay Pest
Humans: The Budapest
Humans II: The Prague
Humans III: The Hague
Humans of Amsterdam
Humans of Columbus
Humans of Hudson
Humans of East
Humans of Further East
Humans of Royal Island
Pigs of Royal Island
A/B/C/D - Central Pig West
LIAR to New York-Pig Station
PATH Train Pig
NOTORIOUS P.I.G.
Pork: The Other White Meat
American Pig
=|:-)
=|:-(
ALMOND JOYS GOT NUTS, MOUNDS DON'T
JOUR DE LA REVOLUTION
"" sometimes U feel like a NUT sometimes U dont ""..............>>>>>...lol!!!
The various "Pig" Handles are favorites of all humanity -- and sudaity as well.
In other words ALL of YOUR past handles
I don't know which is scarier. The fact that you've changed your handle so many times, or the fact that you remember them all.
No, the scarier part is that I searched the archives to check and update the list I made.
Any of those your real name???
Pork: The Other White Meat was my favorite. It ties in nicely with those absurd National Pork Board ads on the LIRR.
heypaul, because of its muliple usage, it is concise and correct.
All others pale in its brilliance, so just give up!
avid
My vote goes to Moving Platform.
Someone's taken "PCCfan". Good choice!
-Robert King
I vote for ME! Everyone needs to Eat Mor Chikin! Good source of the protein!
"I vote for ME! Everyone needs to Eat Mor Chikin! Good source of the protein!"
Col.Sanders is smiling down at you from Heaven, also Frank Perdue is choking back the tears !!
P.S. Frank Perdue looks like a chicken !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
LOOKED....Mr Perdue is in that Great Chicken Coop in the Sky [ I BELIEVE...]. However his son looks just like him so.....
No, LOOKS... Frank Perdue is still alive.
I vote for all of us who use our real names.
....like me, Kevin Walsh, Peter Rosa, David Greenberger, Steve Hoskins, Dave Pirmann, etc. and, of course, #4 Sea Beach Fred (you did have it legally changed Fred, didn't you?)
I know the answer: Who are people who are uncreative enough that they have to rely on their parents to choose a Subtalk handle?
Non-creativity has nothing to do with it.
Where I come from thems are fiting words
"I know the answer: Who are people who are uncreative enough that they have to rely on their parents to choose a Subtalk handle?"
Who's Morris ?
Probably the same people who survived the "handle craze" during the CB radio era 25 years ago, and never wanted to hear a "handle" again!
Or, the folks like me who have little to hide and don't need to think up a catchy handle.
No complaint about catchy/clever handles, but with me, what you see it what you get.
I knew it!!!!!!!!!
What gives you the idea this is my real name?
I might have thought it was ficticious, but you put that "J." in there
Well, that sure proves it!
Hank Swivel is my real name.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Mine's Maynard G. Krebbs
My real is Jim Nasium......;-)
Sorry, I couldn't resist...
That's funny! I thought you had the same name as that great American author who wrote the famous book, Tiger's Revenge!
I must have been mistaken!
Some guy named Claude, right?
You're absolutely right!!!!
No, Karl, I wrote a book called 'Montezooma's Revenge'! ;-)
BMTman
Ouch!!!
Eeeewwwwww!!
My good buddy Claude Balls
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
Mine's K. O. Pectate.
I use my real & actual name state & county... & I also ""ran for office of the BEST west coast subtalker handle
& rail transit photographer out here !!!....................................lol !!!
do Real Tags count?
I considered using the Handle "F-in Brooklyn" But I didn't know if that would be appreciated.
yea !!
SOUTH FERRY ( 1-9 ) train !! my soul brother in nyc !!!
he wins hands down !!!
Mr. Allah,
I accept thy nomination.
Still Going Strong...
on year free rides on all redbirds for you !!!
one year free rides on all redbirds for you !!!
Better get out the scuba gear :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
?????????..................!!!!!
NO UGLY R-142 WILL EVER LOOK AS PRETTY AS THIS ...
no doubt 1 south ferry 9 rules! we miss south ferry! i know i do considering i like the 1 line!
however if there was a vote for longest handle, i would win! lol
My favorite handle has always been Q Traindash 7. I don't know why, but it seems so cool.
it represents the "other side" of railfanning
the reason why he rules is because he likes the example shown below ........lol !!!
& he loves this !! how can something this old look so dammed good ??
LOL !! LOL!!
AMEN to that.
south ferry folks now dayz dont have good taste'...............lol!!
anybody recall....... ?? subway_crash_"""...................????........................lol..!!!
...that was one tough act to FOLLO(w)....
(if any folk remember such)
I saw this twice this week on Amtrak this week.My question is since Amtrak is spending millions of dollars on the new Acela trains, why is the brand new Acela engine pulling old Metro Liner cars? Why break up the high speed trains for pulling cars that will be phased out of service?Has any Sub Talkers noticed this also?
::sigh:: Acela engines were NOT hauling "metroliner" cars. Those are new HHP-8 locomotives that Amtrak purchased in addition to the ACELA Trainsets as an E-60 replacement.
I still can't wait for the ALP-46s to pop up. It'll be fun seeing which locomotiv performs better. I've heard, and noticed the HHP-8s are a bit slow to accelerate, but the AEM-7ACs are a a tad better than the origional AEM-7s (which, IMHO, are slow too, but given the obnoxiously heavy cars they're pulling around...)
Bring Back th GGI and the NH Jets, those were great engines. GE knew how to make them back then
While I'm not really big on nostalgia I can't agree with you more about the EP-5 Jets. When i was a kid I used to go to Grand Central just to see them. Do you remember that distinctive groan they had when they came to life? They just sounded powerful. Not quite the P motors (or was it the T motors) but they did sound like power.
Probably T-motors. The P motors were CUT electrics, although some did come to GCT in their later life.
Yup, and stillm the hum of the GGI
Amfleet isn't that heavy. GG-I's pulled 21 P70's, which would have sent an AEM-7 off crying to mommy.
It seemed like anything that replaced the GGI did not last more then 10 years. The GGI started when in 1935-36 and lasted over 40 years until the late 70s. will say 40 years. In 25 years which how many new generations of electric power has Amtrak had since then 3-4???
2 and 1/2 E60's and AEM 7's / one half for the rebuilds. HHP's are # 3
E 60's are a reliable FREIGHT engine, the AEM7's saved ATK's a##.
The GG-1 as a class lasted in service 49 years 5 months (1934-1983), although the longest-running individual units saw only about 46 years of service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And how old is the oldest AEM 1 or any GGI replacement???
The E-60 series was constructed beginning in 1975, the first AEM-7 was built in November, 1979, so we're looking at 26 years for the E-60s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Photos taken from South Street bridge in Philly on 10-3-01:
Acela Express power
HHP-8
I think that amtrack is keeping the metroliners
The word "Metroliner" is now a service, not the rolling stock name. The older round body shell of the EMU Metroliner have been de-motored and are/were used as control trailer. The cars are called Amfleet or Amfleet II.
Did the orginal poster noted the double ended cabs on his Acela "Engines"?
Well, they are "borrowing" equipment from other railroads for the significant increase of traffic during the holiday week. There is even a message on their website apologizing for any trains on the Northeast Corridor that are not what passengers are expecting. They are lengthening trains to accomodate the overflow and need cars.
Boy am I glad I am not doing the Boston to NY run this Thanksgiving!! That trip has given me some serious headaches!
Thankfully, I'm not either. I'm driving this year. No more crappy CDot SPV handmedowns and and asshole condustors at Amtrak for me this year.
The trains that you have seen are not pulled by Acela Express power cars. They are HHP-8's which have a slightly different design of the carbody.
I've seen this happen many times, also with Turquoise color cars for Coach class and dark blue with a swirly lime green for the Cafe car (correct me if I'm wrong), and the dark blue trains with very thin stripes of red and white on top, (which are Metroliner trains).
I don't think HHP-8's are capable of such high speeds compared to the AE power cars. They also might use them for Acela Regional service.
Their purpose is to pull heavy long distance and clocker trains. They have pulled "Silver" trains with dead P42's in the consist, and had no trouble walking off with it, and hitting 90-100MPH.
They do use them for Acela Regional, long story. See my post either later tonight or tomorrow.
The GGI used to haul ass at 90mph on many stretches
and starting with the fall 1967 timetable, because the (real) Metroliners were still not online, 152, 153 The Afternoon Congressional began a speeded up schedule and the GG1's were allowed 100mph. And it was fun! They managed 3:20 to DC with the 1952/60's Budd coaches.
I was in NJ Transit web page, and found that they have this neat animated screensaver that you can download for free. It has light rail, bus, and 2 rail lines with the NYC Skyline in the backround. Also a train and bus station called Hamilton. Has anyone seen this? and what do you think. I sit for a while just watching it.
Well, the new MTH Catalog is out - on line anyway. The 2002 Vol.#1 offers nothing new in the way of Subway stuff. This is a plus since MTH has yet to deliver the long promised R-32s or the R-17s in the disappointing Blue/Silver colors.
Yet, the good people at MTH have found still one more way to loot the "Train Dude treasury". They are promising the release of the famous LIRR DD-1 in their Premier line. Since I'm still trying to figure out how to pay for my LIRR G-5s, I can only hope it takes a while to get this one out to the dealers.
Time to install slot machines in the crew room. :)
Or start charging for the "Train Dude - Unknown Subways" tour.
As long as you don't promote it on Ebay, you'll live. :)
I know what you mean, Dude.
I'm almost hoping they push back the date of the R-17, since it will supposedly be released a month after the R-32 models. I'm an addict and I can't help myself. I have two R-32 sets on order (to make an eight-car train) to go along with my two R-42 and two R-21 sets. If they keep putting out more subway sets, I'll keep buying more trains and squeezing in more yard tracks to store them.
Chapter 11, here I come.
Funny you should mention that. I just came up from the railroad (once referred to as the basement). Not 25% finished and I'm already adding a new branch and 5 track yard for more subway stuff. Thankfully there have been lots of Ross switches on E-Bay these past few weeks.
i've tried searching for 'ross switches' on ebay without luck. what search criteria did you use.
thanks
At the risk of adding competition to the bidding, I use 3 criteria.
Ross Custom
Ross Switch
Ross Track
With the last one you'll get mostly listings forDiana ross * track tapes but every once in a while you'll get a hit.
how do i get a copy of this catalog... i want to buy train stuff!
Since there are been several subway oriented trivia tests, here's one to test the knowlege of the streetcar folks here.
Answers will be given next week.
1. Where is the only non-Narragansett double truck open car in a museum?
2. Who built it and when?
3. How many cars built by the Brownell Car Company (of St. Louis) survive, and where are they?
4. How many museums have Pullman PCC's in their collections?
5. Of all the preserved PCC's, who has the only standard air-electiric PCC built by Pullman?
6. How many dual-gauge museums are there?
7. How many wide-gauged museums?
Bonus Question: What museum has more than one operating site?
Mark Wahlberg, Joaquin Phoenix, Charlize Theron (2000) "Released from jail for a crime he didn't commit, a young man goes to work for his uncle in New York City's subway yards." Watching it now on DirecTV's WEST coast feed (already ran in the east 3 hours ago) and for those of you who have STARZ (pretty much leaves out TimeWarner cable) the future showings can be found on this page at the Starzmovies.com site:
http://www.starzmovies.com/se/starz/title.html?version_id=53241&episode_num=-1&the_view=ShowAll
Won't be on HBO. :)
Even they know the MTA's corrupt!
I bought a used copy from blockbuster. My wife and I enjoyed the movie and the acting. The plot,though, had a "Money Train" feel to it. Not well rooted in reality. The film could have been about any municipal agency - say the supplier and maintenance of Garbage Trucks or Police Cars. Brief shots in 207th St. were pretty good. One correction, Mark Wahlberg is never really hired by his uncle. Ending is predictable.
Yeah, having sat through the whole thing (wanted to give a heads-up to others) it really wasn't much of a movie and there was a sad lacking of train shots. Funniest thing was I don't remember EVER laying up a D train in Sunnyside. :)
Looked like they used stun guns on old LIRR equipment. Sort of reminds me of Wody Harrelson bleeding the brakes on the Money train.
Heh. That was priceless too. I know the TA didn't like to go out of their way to cooperate with movie makers over the years - it shows in the things Hollyweird comes up with. After all these years, I'm STILL wondering what that contraption was in "1-2-3" hung out the cab window was supposed to do. :)
The TA policy is no technical assistance with film makers who portray crime in the subways. They want to give no food for thought to those who might be inspired to 'try this or that'.
As for Pelham 1-2-3, any RCI carries one piece of equipment in his toolbag that would take the place of that whole 9 foot long contraption. Hell - I carry enough in my briefcase.
You carry coconuts? Heh. Won't go into the wrenches here to honor policy. :)
If I tell you I can do the same thing with a knife, the belt from my pants and my briefcase, would you believe me?
How about a bungee cord and enough coconuts to weigh down the controller? There ... run rings around you logically. And of course, if I was going to run the 6 around south ferry loop (without blowing it into steel south of BB) I'd want to bring some wine corks for the brake pipes down below. Whoops. Probably committed a felony there. :)
Still a dumbass movie if you know what to do in a cab. I *was* impressed though when they asked whats his name if he remembered to bring his cutting key. That's one a lot of folks don't know about.
What was the RCIs 'device', do I have one now, do i need it and can I make it in my 'machine shop?' I have a new friend, an RCI and we've been talking about the inspectors backgrounds. You know I'm new, a little scared of the 'pick' coming up. The best decision in twenty five years of work was making a new start with TA. Peter
No, you don't have one. Only "road" RCIs get them. Of course you could use your belt if your pants will stay up without it.
Ah! Now the mystery is solved. It ain't coconuts for weighing down the deadman, it's big brass (ahem's) ... heh. sorry, couldn't resist.
Yeah, that movie was a total waste of time. I saw some previews early summer 2000....and it was supposed to have come out in 8/2000. It came out three months later, and only in the off-beat theaters.
What they showed in the previews of the subway trains was ALL they showed in the movie!!!!
I wouldn't run out to try and rent a copy, just wait and it will show up on cable sometime.
Yeah, I had never heard of it until it popped up on the DirecTV guide while I was running through the 263 channels looking for something else to watch. So I punched the button for Starz1 west and there it was. I was HIGHLY underwhelmed actually that there were next to no choochoos but morbid curiosity kept it lit just to see. I DON'T recommend it having now seen it, but it runs again Wednesday 10 pm east and 3 hours later west if anyone has satellite or is on one of the rare cable systems that carries Starz.
Time Warner Cable does carry Starz on it's DTV package. However, I do not know anybody who actually pays for it.
Heh. Well, that flick wasn't worth signing up for it. Not a bad flick, just doesn't have enough spotting features. Glad to see TimeWeenie finally added Starz - that was one of the reasons why we ditched TW cable up here in Albany a few years ago. HBO and Max gets tired fast. :)
I have Time Warner's DTV, and I have all of the Starz! channels.
Runs again Wednesday ...
"A man was killed yesterday after he was apparently struck by an Amtrak train in a Manhattan railroad underpass at 53rd Street, between 10th Avenue and 11th Avenue, the police said."
Saturday's Times
Oh well!
Buh Bye!
If you do not work there, what are you dong there? If you are not supposed to be there, stay out of there. Nothing fancy about that, nothing complicated either.
yeah, i sorta agree with you ppl, but aren't we being a little sadistic??!
I see nothing sadistic about the responses. I do see a lot of indifference over the death. It's not like he was forced to be there.
Sounds like a person who can answer the question:
"What part of NO don't you understand?"
Hold on, hold on. Sorry if I appear stupid here, but aren't those the same tracks that go under Riverside Park? And if they are, weren't they abandoned at one time???
They are and they were, but they were rebuilt (along with a new connection into Penn Station) for Amtrak's use, so all Amtrak trains could use NYP rather than having some in Grand Central.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When did this rebuilding take place?
- Lyle Goldman
When did this rebuilding take place?
It was called the West Side Connector. It opened in roughly 1990.
It took a couple of years of challenging construction, including wiggling the single track through the excavated foundation of a large (20 stories plus?) office building above. They actually had to brace the building remove one support column, replacing it with a crossbeam supported by two other columns, to get the alignment through.
How did these tracks connect to Grand Central? I was under the impression that whatever service Amtrak had into GC came via the MN trackage.
Are you saying there is a currently unused tunnel somewhere between these west side tracks and GC?
Inquiring minds and all that....
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The Park Avenue Vaiduct was and is the only way into Grand Central. When Amtrak decided to run only into Penn Station, they rebuilt the line that comes down the west side of manhattan and passes under Riverside Park.
The Park Avenue Viaduct was and is the only way into Grand Central. When Amtrak decided to run only into Penn Station, they rebuilt the line that comes down the west side of manhattan and passes under Riverside Park.
So instead of turning at Spuyten Duyvil, trains continued along the 100-year-old swing bridge across the mouth of the Harlem River Shipping Canal and down the west side.
That swing bridge had to be rebuilt for the project as well, BTW. It had been stuck open since construction of the Javits Center around 1983 severed the High Line for 18 months, driving the companies that used it for freight out of business.
How did these tracks connect to Grand Central?
They didn't. Originally (and still today), all Amtrak trains from the south and west came into NYP, while trains from the north came into Grand Central. This connector permitted the Amtrak trains from the north to come down the old NYC west side line into NYP.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So Amtrak has been using the West Side tracks for only about ten years now, and before that, those tracks did not even connect to Penn Station?
- Lyle Goldman
I believe that was the case. Prior to AMTRAK, they carried freight to the West Side yards.
I believe that was the case. Prior to AMTRAK, they carried freight to the West Side yards.
To the West Side Yards and beyond, down the High Line to a handful of businesses (mostly meatpacking) in west Chelsea and the West Village. The twin-track High Line was built in its own viaduct in the Twenties to replace a surface line down 11th Avenue, and it ran through several buildings.
There's now a movement afoot by a group called Friends of the High Line to preserve the viaduct and turn it into a linear park. The Giuliani administration and CSX want to tear it down (as it's already been torn down south of 14th Street).
Landlords vs. tenants. Hmmm. Wonder who will win THIS argument? First rule of politics is "whoever contributes, wins" ... how much did the proponents of this plan PAY? That determines the outcome. I know politics is "off-topic" here, but the more you look into the mechanics of what makes everything from subways to distribution of largesse happen, it STILL comes down to our political sausage crafters to determine the eventual outcome. :)
High line advocates ... did they outbid the landlords?
High line advocates ... did they outbid the landlords?
Actually the Friends of the High Line have a LOT of prestigious cultural names. They are having $100-a-ticket benefits at Holly Solomon Gallery, etc. Remember that unlike 10 years ago, west Chelsea now has a ton of art galleries, expensive restaurants and stylish shops, just 'cause the spaces are larger & cheaper than SoHo.
If I had to handicap, I'd give it even odds. Depends what Mayor Bloomberg thinks, and whether the Giuliani administration supports a demolition permit application (not sure of the actual mechanism for the bureaucracy here).
All things constuction are dominated by politics. So is RTO. The question is always nice and simple - whoever has the most BUCKS wins. Hasn't ever been different. Except for one mayor who said, "I don't CARE how much the BRT and BMT hands the council, I'm going to trash them anyway" ... few things rise to such a political level of "let's DO it!" ... sorry for my attitude here, but I've played with the adults at the holiday table. :)
D'Amato only cost $5000 ... heh.
Whoops! Forgot the BLOOMBERG angle ... he should be interesting IN THAT he has more money than lobbyists are willing/able to contribute. I know the city tends to be liberal, but I'd say that Mike (a real DEMOCRAT by the way) would be FAR less impressed by a wad of cash than ambulance chasers converted to elected by their law firms who want their asses OUT of the way and safely ensconced in politics) is far less likely to be swayed by campaign cash than the usual players and will likely consider the possibilty than yet another hackney sausage crafter. STILL, he'll look at it from the different perspective of true cost/benefit ... can a High Line rebuild pay the MTA for itself as costing less cash than it brings in in ridership? If so, Mike will likely sign off on it ... but if it costs more than it will bring in, watch it get stuffed FAST ... better run to WFC at least ... without more cost to it than fares in cash ...
Otherwise, the interested parties will need to outbid the failure benfactors by a ratio of 10-1 or better if they want to see it happen. Such is how sausagecrafting works ...
... can a High Line rebuild pay the MTA for itself as costing less cash than it brings in in ridership? If so, Mike will likely sign off on it ... but if it costs more than it will bring in, watch it get stuffed FAST ... better run to WFC at least ...
HUH? The High Line has nothing to do with the MTA. It's owned by CSX, which wants to get rid of it but is marginally sympathetic to folks who would take it off their hands to turn it into a linear park, so CSX doesn't have to pay demolition costs. IIRC, they were estimated at $50 million or so.
Bloomberg hasn't shown any particular initiative on transit projects except for nay-saying the Second Avenue Subway and the idea of a freight-rail tunnel.
And I strongly suspect that the Friends of the High Line are its friends *only* to the degree that it could become a linear park. If the choice were between tearing it down and returning it to regular rail use (MTA or otherwise), my gut says they'd prefer it to be torn down.
What would really be interesting is if the MTA came up with some sort of plan to use the High Line -- say for extension of the No. 7 train from Javits Center south to the World Trade Center via the CSX tracks and a new concrete el down West Street from 14th -- and said it would help cut vehicular traffic in the WTC area and reduce the risk for future terrorist attacks.
I'm sure the NIMBYs would still come out against it, but their spin would be fun to listen to anyway ("It's not that we're for less security from future terrorist attacks, it's just that the quality of life of our neighborhood...")
What would really be interesting is if the MTA came up with some sort of plan to use the High Line -- say for extension of the No. 7 train from Javits Center south to the World Trade Center via the CSX tracks and a new concrete el down West Street from 14th -- and said it would help cut vehicular traffic in the WTC area and reduce the risk for future terrorist attacks.
I'd love it, but you'd end up with a pretty odd alignment. You'd have to get the 7 train from its current terminus up against the lower-level IND 8th Ave tracks over to 10th-11th Avenue and 34th Street and then connect it into the now-severed below-grade tracks north of the High Line. Then you go all the way west on the current trackage out to the West Side Highway to get around Cammerer Yard, back east toward Morgan Annex, and then south to about 14th Street ... and then you have to figure out what to do from there.
(Does anyone know the plans for getting the 7 to Javits? Or, better yet, have a MAP of the proposed routing ???)
Remember West Street has JUST been re-engineered and rebuilt with very nice plantings, promenades, bike paths, etc. The resulting linear Hudson River Park is *hugely* popular with west side residents starved for open space. Building an El down that would be impossible.
No, in retrospect, they should have put an underground alignment under Route 9A (West Street) while rebuilding, to use for future west side mass transit once all the high rises that are waiting to be born actually arrive. But that would have required both $$$ and advance planning. [sigh]
I'm sure the NIMBYs would still come out against it, but their spin would be fun to listen to anyway ("It's not that we're for less security from future terrorist attacks, it's just that the quality of life of our neighborhood...")
Well, c'mon, an elevated at second-story level DOES reduce quality of life ... I'd have some sympathy for that argument. I have less sympathy for arguments against temporary changes like tearing up streets for tunnel access, etc.
Of course, if you DID get the 7 down to the WTC/WFC area ... you could connect it into the now-closed end section of the 1 below Chambers ... and if THAT got connected into the Joralemon tube ... the 7 train is now connected into the rest of A Division!
Whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing I leave to the collective wisdom of SubTalkers.
Of course, if you DID get the 7 down to the WTC/WFC area ... you could connect it into the now-closed end section of the 1 below Chambers ... and if THAT got connected into the Joralemon tube ... the 7 train is now connected into the rest of A Division!
Whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing I leave to the collective wisdom of SubTalkers.
Why, a good thing of course!
:-) Andrew
I'd love it, but you'd end up with a pretty odd alignment. You'd have to get the 7 train from its current terminus up against the lower-level IND 8th Ave tracks over to 10th-11th Avenue and 34th Street and then connect it into the now-severed below-grade tracks north of the High Line. Then you go all the way west on the current trackage out to the West Side Highway to get around Cammerer Yard, back east toward Morgan Annex, and then south to about 14th Street ... and then you have to figure out what to do from there.
Actually, it would be about as twisty as the No. 7 line between Hunter's Point Av. and 33rd/Rawson at Queens Blvd. -- it's almost a straight shot between those two points, but the line doglegs back west to hook up with the Queensboro Plaza station, adding four turns (three pretty sharp ones) to the route.
Well, c'mon, an elevated at second-story level DOES reduce quality of life ... I'd have some sympathy for that argument. I have less sympathy for arguments against temporary changes like tearing up streets for tunnel access, etc.
Were this about 25 or 30 years ago when the High Line was still in use, I think you could argue that people who moved into buildings in the area knew they were getting a home next to an active rail track. Obviously that wouldn't play today, but it would be interesting to see the MTA float a trial balloon just to watch the reaction.
No, in retrospect, they should have put an underground alignment under Route 9A (West Street) while rebuilding, to use for future west side mass transit once all the high rises that are waiting to be born actually arrive. But that would have required both $$$ and advance planning.
Because of the proximity of 12th Ave.-West St. to the Hudson, an underground line there would likely be fairly expensive -- you wouldn't have the utility problem other avenues have, but keeping the water table out on a route that would run within landfill would be pretty costly -- remember the figures on the underground Westway plan, $300-$400 million a mile, and those were in 1970s dollars.
And as far as the 7 extension from Times Square to Javits, there hasn't been any official word on that yet, but it would probably have to do some twisting and turning of its own to get around the Lincoln Tunnel entrances and access roads between 10th and 11th Ave., unless it could ramp up to one level below the street by 11th Ave. and 41st St. and then run above the three tubes to New Jersey while going south on 11th Ave. to 34th St.
That is a very interesting idea, especially to put those tracks to regular use. I have my own version of the #7 extension in Manhattan; incidentally I have also going down to the WTC area but by a new tunnel via 10th Avenue and Hudson Street.
okay here we are again with a classic what to do.
1. I would rather use these tracks ultimately for mainline service. True, the cost would be high but, imagine diverting Metro North trains down the west side to a new terminal perhaps first around the current end of track but to be run ultimately downtown.
2. If not for mainline then twist the L onto the route. One because the L is not quite as sardined out as the 7, two because the B division inherently has more potential capacity. And three because if the line were extended south again as a piece of the L and had NS shuttles as well as alternating N or S L's it would provide both West Side service and more Bklyn/Queens access to parts of Manhattan.
Of course most residents in these buildngs have no desire to have trains in their buildings again, but as with all developement issues we will always have a camel or sausage.
okay here we are again with a classic what to do.
1. I would rather use these tracks ultimately for mainline service. True, the cost would be high but, imagine diverting Metro North trains down the west side to a new terminal perhaps first around the current end of track but to be run ultimately downtown.
This does make a certain amount of sense, but remember, the remaining High Line is only really one mile: 34th-ish to 14th. You're still left with having to get the trains the next 2 miles down to WFC.
2. If not for mainline then twist the L onto the route. One because the L is not quite as sardined out as the 7, two because the B division inherently has more potential capacity. And three because if the line were extended south again as a piece of the L and had NS shuttles as well as alternating N or S L's it would provide both West Side service and more Bklyn/Queens access to parts of Manhattan.
Yeah, except that there's consensus already beyond extending the 7 to Javits -- and I suspect subways would be more palatable to Manhattan residents (since WE could use 'em) than Metro North trains which provide NO local benefit whatsoever.
Of course most residents in these buildngs have no desire to have trains in their buildings again, but as with all developement issues we will always have a camel or sausage.
Easy for you (and all of us) to say! In the end, it's about power. Betcha west Chelsea and the West Village have at least as much clout as Astoria does in potentially preventing N extension to LaGuardia ....
Was he struck because he wandered onto the tracks, or do you actually HAVE to cross the tracks there?
When the R36WF(Worlds Fair)arrived in 1964 they operated exclusively on the #7 line after that some went to the IRT mainline routes in the early 1970s. For how long were they assigned to the #1 line? Then what other line it saw service on? Since when the R36WF were assigned to the #6 line? When the R36ML(mainline)arrived in 1964 they operated on the #4 line after that did they go anywhere? Also there is a picture of R36ML 9526-7 in NYC Subway Cars book & these two cars are on the #7 line this was probably mid-late 1980s, were there any R36ML assigned to the 7 if so during what years?
Actually, when the R36ML cars first arrived, they somehow were put on the Flushing line...I don't know if they operated in service there, but the very first time I saw them, they were parked on the center track east of Junction Blvd. The R36WF's hadn't all been delivered as I remember, and I was riding the line then -- I thought, gee, they went back to the "old style" (non-picture windows and red paint...) halfway through the deliveries.
The first time I saw them IN SERVICE, is as Amin mentioned...on the #4 line. That was just a couple weeks after I saw that long string of red cars on the Flushing line. I used to ride the #4 to/from Cardinal Hayes HS in those days.
I've been noticing this for awhile, but why do ML cars on the Flushing line flicker also over a 3rd rail gap?
I've seen it with my own eyes. as I have identified them when I boarded the train and saw the light flicker through the storm door.
The R-33S and R-36 cars are the last ones in the NYC system to have main lighting that goes off at third rail gaps. The other cars have capacitors that keep the main lights running for a few seconds after third rail power is removed, which is usually long enough to keep them from going out, since third rail power is usually restored very quickly after the train goes through the gap.
All cars from R-42 up were built with capacitors for the main lighting; the rest were retrofitted during overhaul (remember that the other Redbirds were done after the R-33S and R-36 overhauls were designed). One R-33S (I forget the number) was given capacitors during or just after overhaul.
David
But don't ML cars come from the Pelham line? I thought ML cars were NOT supposed to flicker. Only WF and S.
Can you clear me up on this?
All R-36s flicker. There's only 40 R-36 MLs anyway.
Which cars are used on the Pelham line and the 7th Av. line? (#2)
[One R-33S (I forget the number) was given capacitors during or just after overhaul]
Actually, it's one R36WF (9574) and one R33S (9336).
picky picky blinking lights! Inverter should switch instantly when losing third rai AND cuts to emergency lighting in about twenty seconds. Scarred of the bogeyman? Use a flashlight. Peter
I've met drooling bus fanatic kids (Well, they're not kids any longer but they act like they are.) who didn't like the old subway cars with incadescent lighting because it'd get really dark inside whenever a third rail gap was encountered and they were afraid of the dark. Watch out kiddies - as soon as the lights go out, the Gloucster Monster's gonna getcha!
-Robert King
"picky picky blinking lights!"
Picky, picky is right!! I remember the old days of real subway cars with bare bulbs.....BARE BULBS !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. And you probably remember when ALL the cars went dark, one at a time and you could look down the train and know when it was going to be YOUR car's turn to blink out. :)
"Heh. And you probably remember when ALL the cars went dark, one at a time and you could look down the train and know when it was going to be YOUR car's turn to blink out. :)"
Ahh yes.....sweet memories of bare bulbs, exposed ceiling fans, lights that blink on and off, the whine of the quill gears when accelerating............Those were the fun days !!!
I forgot to mention underseat heaters that toasted the backs if your legs, the "fog" with oil smell at 34th St and 6th Ave, vending machines inspired by the gaming commission of Nevada, wooden platforms that creaked when you walked on them, no PA systems on pre-war stuff to tell you when your stop was, motormen wearing coveralls, dime sized tokens, subway cars with classification marker lights, rattan seating and the split ones that would pinch your ass when you sat on them............I could go on for hours !!
Bill "Newkirk"
"I could go on for hours "
Please Do.
That is the subway as I remember it!
Elias
Heh. And folks wonder why we refer to sanitized toasters on wheels being boring. Ayup - that was the subway I left behind. :)
The real reason has nothing to do with capacitors. Originally, the main lights on all NYCT cars were powered directly by 600 volts DC. When the car went over a gap, the main lights would drop out. At the same time the emergency light relay, which was held in by 600 volts, would drop out, energizing the emergency light circuit - powered by battery.
During overhaul, all NYCT cars except the R-33/R-36 Wf cars were modified. The main lights were converted to operate on battery. Each pair of fluorescent fixxtures is powered by an inverter ballast. The ballast uses 37.5 VDC abd converts it to 400VAC at 1500 Hz to power the lights. When the car goes over the gap, the lights don't blink because the battery is unaffected by gaps.
The inverters also took care of another lesser-known problem resulting from DC operation of "flubes" ... known as "dark cathode" (not to be confused with "Dark Helmet" in Spaceballs) ... when fluourescents are run off DC, one side of the tube tends to darken over time. There used to be a reverser switch for them on the older cars that almost never got hit that would serve to even the wear by reversing the DC to the lights.
When run off the inverter, each half cycle switches which end is the "cathode" and that in turn helps to prolong the life of the tubes. And with 400 applied, probably doesn't need a starter either.
Absolutely correct. The polarity reversers were driven by a timer. The whole thing was neglected to death leading to the situation you allude to.
Fortunately the old wrong-threaded 36 volters in the side signs of the R1/9's didn't care about polarity. But I sure do remember seeing some mighty dim redbird bulbs that were black almost to the other end of the tube. :)
Thanks for the correction. The R-42s did come with capacitors, though, if memory serves (not that they have them anymore). Can anybody confirm this?
The R-42s were the first cars in the fleet not to have the blinking problem, but during the days before GOH, they were often prone to having some type of problem either with the battery or with the connection to the lights. That led to a plethora of "dark cars" in the R-42 fleet that would still remain in service despite the fact that many people refused to sit in a darkened car due to either the inability to read anything or safety concerns, and made those R-42 trainsets similar in ridership usage to the Flushing Line fleet during hot days in late spring or early fall, when no one is riding in the un-ACed R-33WF cars.
Very true. I remember (pre-GOH) that people riding an R-42 in warm weather had a choice: working fluorescent lights, or air conditioning. It seemed they never both worked in the same car at the same time!
David
The original R-42 had a Main Light inverter appended tot he converter. That inverter card was very undependable frequently shorting, blowing the 20 Amp fuse and causing pairs of dark cars. Replacing the fuse on the 'fly' was often not successful and would frequently scare customers because of the loud report when the new fuse was installed.
I wonder if they even teach these "train operators" where the main light reversing switch is any more. (Hint: open the 600 volt panel behind you)
There were some even back in my own time whose attitude was "not my yob, man" and firmly believed that winged car inspectors would swoop down and press the button FOR them. :)
The reverser was on a timer whose gears universally choked up with dust bunnies and steel dust. Inverters are a damned good idea. Hell, I wonder how many walk around their train before charging up and open up the water release valves in the tanks? Betcha no one.
On Thursday, I noticed that the signs were showing this message as the train I was on was coming in:
7·TIME SQ. DUE IN 4 MIN
7·TIME SQ. DUE IN 6 MIN
Where was this?
I saw this as the train I was on was pulling in to 103, 90, 82, and 69 Streets this past Thursday evening
If the train ain't stopping due to a battery run or if it's a work/transfer or out of service train, I doubt if the sign is gonna know about it!!!!!
I saw it at 5th Avenue on Friday for the Queens bound trains!
I saw this Saturday at 103 Street from a Manhattan-bound train:
7·MAIN ST. DUE IN 4 MIN
7·MAIN ST. DUE IN 9 MIN
Meanwhile, a Main Street-bound train was at Junction Blvd, less than 4 minutes away.
Some new signal action we don't know about? This may be easily possible with CBTC and ATO compatible signals but the 7 Line isn't due for signal rehab for a while.
Identra?
Nope...ATS (Automatic Train Supervision). It's being installed throughout the system (mostly IRT at first), and the Flushing Line is where it's being tested. One feature is a "next train" display on those new color LED panels on the platforms that up to now haven't done much besides display the date and time.
David
I know that's the plan. I didn't realize any of it was in place already. Is it up and running on the 7 already?
If it's coming to the IRT first, why do so many IRT stations (even recently rehabbed ones) not have the new panels, while they've already been installed in many of the B Division stations?
Theoretically, could Identra be used (on the 7 only) for such a system? Is the system still working?
i have seen them in other places, Union Sq on the Q, R, N..
(those signs, mounted saying the time etc.), and i think atlantic ave on the Q as well
Yes, as I said, they're on many B Division platforms, but I don't think I've seen them on any IRT platforms except on the 7.
I alway think of the Flushing line as a Division B with Division A cars.
Phil Hom
Theres one at Bowlin Green on the southbound platform.
New Technology I guess.
That looks rather interesting. Were you able to understand what the signs were trying to say whether the train was either due in 4 minutes or 6 minutes.
#3 West End Jeff
Welcome to the 21st Century. I know WAMTA, BART, London Tubes, Hong Kong, Singapore and many othere have had this for years
Are their signs easier to understand than the ones in the New York City subway system?
#3 West End Jeff
I've seen pictures of the ones in London. They're more like this(taking an example from the Northern Line)
1. HIGH BARNET
2. MILL HILL EAST 3 MIN
A train is arriving now bound for High Barnet, while a train to Mill Hill East is 3 minutes away. It could also display a third train, alternating the reading for the second train with a reading for a third train, like "Edgware 6 min" or something like that.
Although on the Metropolitan Line, there are local, express (semi-fast), and super express (fast) trains, where signs like this show information of one train. There's a good page showing these services.
Will our system distinguish locals and expresses, particularly where they share the same designation (6, 7, Q)? Will it alert passengers to routing irregularities (assuming they're known), like locals skipping local stops or expresses making local stops? Will signs be installed at decision points in mezzanines as well as on platforms?
Two failings:
1. There are no such clock/message signs installed at Grand Central on the #7 platform. It was explained to me by the station superintendent that they were not originally included in the grotesque (and very filthy) "artwork" on the ceiling that includes the lights, fans, and non-electric signage. And there are apparently no plans to install them.
2. They don't indicate "Express" or "Local" for an arriving train. This would be very useful at Fifth Avenue, Grand Central (if the signs ever did get put in), Vernon/Jackson, Hunters Point, CourtHouse Square, and Queensboro Plaza. The Identra signs used to do this, but they've been disabled, another useful amenity done away with.
How did this Identra system work?
Good question....I just received a copy of Fred Kramer's new book (Unifying The Subways) and there is a fairly closeup view of the Identra "hoop" on the end of one of the R15's. I couldn't see anything special about it, it just looks like a toilet seat mounted vertically in a bracket.
Perhaps there were different hoops, so different train operators had to set up their train with the proper hoop?
The Identra coil is a magnetic device that can be detected by trackside devices. Depending on the magnetic signal given (not sure exactly how this works, but it's adjustable somehow - about ten different settings, based on some information I've read on the similar Toronto system) the trackside device can identify the train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why was this system abandoned? What was it used for besides signs on the platforms? Why did it never spread beyond the 7?
Identra WAS used by CTA on both the North Soth Thru Route and the Dearborn Subway. In each case the identra coils ID ed the trains at branching points replacing manned towers.
I don't know how many settings there were for the #7 trains. There were at least 3 different settings: local; express and super express.
It worked on the following principle. The device mounted on the train was a tuned resonant circuit. The loop was an inductor. There was a switch that selected 1 of N (where N was at least 3) different capacitors. Thus, the operator in setting the switch was selecting 1 of these resonant frequencies. The wayside equipment transmitted each of the allowed resonant frequencies. As the train passed its resonant circuit coupled it to the wayside equipment. The wayside equipment would be able to detect which of its transmitted frequencies was so coupled.
There were signs on the platforms from Fifth Ave to Queensboro Plaza that would light up when a train approached a station. The possibilities for Fifth Ave and Grand Central were: loc; exp and sup. The possibilities for the other stations were: local and express. An approaching super express would not light up a sign at the stations that did not have the "loc sup exp" type sign.
My guess is that the Identra's were also sent to the tower at Queensboro Plaza. The local/express switch was always set correctly.
I'm not sure, but some body said the IRT is faster than BMT/IND...is that really true? (If it is, i waster all my time riding B Div trains!)
More in perception than in reality. Each system (BMT, IND, and IRT) has fast sections and slow sections.
David
When a motorman says fast vs. slow, he is mostly talking about curves & timers, in others speed restrictions. From the physical layout of the subway, the BMT is a slow railroad, the IRT & IND are fast. Generally speaking!
Perception. A matter of perception. The IRT has shorter cars. Hence 10 IRT cars go by a lot faster than BMT/IND cars. For a 10-car consist that's 500' going by instead of 600'.
But the IRT did get first dibs on the straighest routes in Manhattan, while the IND simply took the place of the els, which the BMT wasn't allowed to do when its Dual Contract lines were built. Plus the BMT never went north of Central Park, which is where some of the best IND and IRT express runs are.
The best BMT straightaway in Manhattan is only the one-mile run from 14th to 34th Sts., which isn't much to write home about, or the run from Canal north to 14th (southbond tradionally is slower because of the curve at Canal). For the best BMT runs you can start at least one in Manhattan -- the 60th St. tunnel to Queens -- but for the others, you've got to go to Brooklyn.
I think the best BMT run is the N express in Brooklyn Heights.
Brooklyn Heights? Do you mean through the Montague Tunnel (under Brooklyn Heights) to Manhattan, or the express run between Pacific and 36th St. on Fourth Avenue?
The one b/t Pacific and 36th. It is on the Brooklyn Heights subway track map.
Even that stretch used to be faster. With the old signals, there were no timers on the northbound express around Union St. and no timers entering 36th St. southbound.
I'll just point out that, while BMT fans rave about the speeds on the Brighton express, numerous IRT express runs and even a few local runs are faster.
Again, you perceive that IRT trains are faster. Do you have any data on which to base your claims?
I base my claim (not to be confused with the blanket claim with which you inaccurately credit me) on the speedometers in the cabs.
See this post. You even participated in the thread.
Any discussion of subway speed such as this is meaningless and juvenile for the following reasons.
All NYCT subway cars except for the R-44/R-46 were designed to have the same balancing speed.
Comparrisons based on different lines, different tracks and different operators are meaningless.
With field shunting removed, cars are more affected by gravity than when first built.
View 40 to 45 as the max on level-tangent track for all cars. + or - dependent on grade, signals or the operator.
I've been saying that till I'm blue in the thread. I've given up.
And you'll notice that the people who don't seem to get it are the ones who don't operate.
Well, "the ones who don't operate" would fit about 95% of the board, so I wouldn't say that.
I just cannot understand that after reading so many posts on this subject, that people on this board continue to say that one type of car class is faster/slower than another WHEN THE TRAIN OPERATORS ON THIS BOARD WHO ONLY OPERATE THE F**KING THINGS FOR A LIVING SAY OTHERWISE. I don't know if it's dead brain cells that's the cause, or maybe there's something in the drinking water that's affecting them.
Bottom line is this: ALL car classes in passenger service have the same speed capabilities. Some INDIVIDUAL trains may be faster than others, but that is the case with ALL car classes.
Part of the confusion may be that while all trains can reach the same max. speeds, some may get there faster -- i.e., accelerate faster than others. A lighter train will generally accelerate faster than a heavier train, particularly if the heavier train doesn't have proportionately more powerful motors. So a train that rumbles along when picking up speed is seen as "slower" that one that jackrabbits out of the box -- and takes longer to get from point A to point B. Are there significant weight differences between classes of cars? 'A' Div. cars are clearly lighter, being smaller. Do they have proportionately more powerful engines than 'B' Div. cars, so that they accelerate faster? That is my perception, anyway.
>>>>>>>>A lighter train will generally accelerate faster than a heavier train
Correct. But with a twist, a train with fewer cars will accelerate faster than a longer train.
>>>>>>>>Are there significant weight differences between classes of cars
Yes there are. The 68 class are the heaviest cars at over 100,000 lbs., while the R38 is one of the lightest in the B div. at 77,000 lbs. Weight info is from what I've heard here.
Actually the R-68 is 90,400 lbs, while the R-32 is the lightest, at 70,000 lbs. You're slippin' Z-Man!! lol :-)
I'm afraid your numbers are a bit off, too. R-68 is a lean 92,720 Lbs. R-32s are between 79,930 & 79,970 depending on Phase I or Phase II, odd or even. R-38 at 7,410 - 77,430 depending on odd or even is the lightest B division car. R-32 and R-38 numbers are post GOH. subtract about 5 tons for pre-GOH weights.
Oh yeah? Well according to TD, I have one right out of two. Looks like you got a goose egg there my friend.
Besides, I wasn't sure about the weight of a 68, but was sure on a 38 since TD went over this within the last week.
Correct. But with a twist, a train with fewer cars will accelerate faster than a longer train.
That doesn't make sense, unless you're saying that the
probability of having at least one dead motor increases
with train length.
It doesn't sound like it makes sense, but it's true. When you're making a yard move with 2 cars, and you place the controller in 1 point of power, the train will "take off" and you'll be doing 5 mph in a pinch. Faster if you take 2 points. Do the same with a 8 car train and it'll take you gain about 1 mph per second in 1 point of power. Same on the main line with reduced cars. Now I'm not talking about top speed or anything like that, all I'm talking about is accelerating from a standing start. If you ever get a chance, try to compare the difference in acceleration between a 4 car SMEE train and a 10 car SMEE train.
I'm not sure what the nominal voltage drop from the control cutout is, I think it is half a volt, and in so referring to the maximum length bulletins, no more than 12 cars can run at one time. Since the CC breaker and associated voltages feeds the entire train consist, it is possible that through electric portion, car wiring resistance and voltage drop, that rear cars on a VERY LONG train won't receive the controlling signals for the 1-8 GS circuits. I wouldn't believe that an 10 car train is more sluggish from the starting gate than a 2 car train of similar cars based just on the difference in length.
Voltage drop is obviously determined by the current carried by the specific trainline wire and the number of interlocks in the circuit. In general, your # of 1/2 volt per car works for me. In tests we found that the 21 wire (motorman's indication) will drop exactly that on the R-68s, meaning weak batteries and a gapped rear car will cause the door relay not to pull in at certain stations - giving an 'unidentified loss of power' condition. "Try your bypass, motorman!"
Alright....I need a lesson. What is a 'gapped rear car.' Peter
Canal Street on the Broadway BMT is one station where due to a third rail gap in the station at the North End, your car will gap there while making the stop. One blown shoe fuse on a rear car will cause more of these problems in my experience than finding a station with a built in third rail gap.
Now I understand...it's the terminology...stuck with a dead car 'on the gap.'A blown shoe fuse means lugging dead weight. R142 new tech is supposed to add so much...but plugs so many problems into the system. Even the shoe fuse is a headache...so much simpler to replace a perforated piece of copper strap than disassembling the 'current collector assembly.' Thankyou, Peter.
Interesting point you raise ... had that happen to me once (but back in those days, you WAITED for an RCI to come fix it - and I was very grateful for the work rule. Heh) that not only lost the fuse, but also had a dragging brake shoe on top of it all. Not a happy pull of the handle there.
The reason I'm kicking in on this one is that I am SHOCKED (pun not really intended, but I'll take it) that in a day and age where cars have a damned screen that blinks car 9 at you because it's a degree too warm and the geese may not be smiling and yet, protectives on the car are still depending on melting metal that goes back 130 years as a technology. (Edison's early failed lightbulbs resulted in "fuses").
One would think that TODAY, modern cars would be equipped with either manually or automatically resetable nitrogen-filled magnablasters or similar "circuit breaker" type "technology" where it could be reset from a cab instead of having to play "open de box" and hope your chicken stick ain't wet. Sheesh.
I can understand a shorter train jumping to a start more quickly.
There is some slight variance between the time that the trainlines
are energized by the master controller and the time that all of
the contactors on a particular car pick up and the car takes power.
The longer the train, the longer the average time for every car
to begin to take power.
Beyond that, however, I can't see any explanation for why a
shorter train would accelerate at a higher or lower rate than
a longer one, all other things being equal. The force that each
car exerts to propel itself is regulated by the accelerating current
circuit and is essentially constant at low speeds. Acceleration
is mass divided by force. Double the number of cars and both
the weight and the total propulsion force double, resulting in
exactly the same acceleration
At the top end, I would say that the longer the train, the higher
the balancing speed, because the first and last cars should
experience more wind resistance than the middle cars.
TrainDude is right: Perception. Longer trains seem to take longer. Electric portion pins may be made of aluminum (at least the ones I've seen) and there is some voltage drop trainline AND the speed of light.......but unless you have a bad group box, sluggish motors or hanging brake shoes, it is PERCEPTION! Peter
'A' Div. cars are clearly lighter, being smaller. Do they have proportionately more powerful engines than 'B' Div. cars, so that they accelerate faster?
"All trains accelerate at 3mph/sec." That's what they [SubTalkers] have shoved and shouted to me in my brain when I commented that trains might accelerate faster than 3mph/sec/sec (made by TD), ESP by "Anon_e_Mouse".
Take my word for it. Then when SubTalkers find a fault with the statement I just made, then you're trusting people who are contradictory to their own knowledge.
Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception,Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception.
Accelleration is 3 MPH/Sec. It is regulated despite weight of the car and passenger load. Everything else is perception due to the light weight of the car and and shorter wheelbase, etc. Once again, it is Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception,Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception, Perception, Perception, perception, perception.
TrainDude: You're really 'on the juice' today. Love it all, Peter
Isn't the propulsion rate 2.5 MPH/second (not 3 -- that's the deceleration rate)? And isn't that only the initial rate -- doesn't it slacken off as the train picks up speed? (from the specifications for the R-46 GOH, pages T7-4 and T7-5: "7.2.11. Speed Limits -- A standard unit train shall be capable of maintaining a speed of 50 mph on level tangent track in still air.The summary of performance of a standard unit train operating in still air on open, level tangent track with 600 VDC power supply voltage shall be as shown in the following table:
"Four-Car Train Performance
"BALANCING SPEED/MPH
Not Less Than/50.0
And Not More Than/55.0
MPHPS
Initial accelration rate/2.5
Full service deceleration
rate at fully loaded car
weight/3.0
Emergency deceleration
rate (all friction at
fully loaded car
weight)/3.2")
And yes, I know that maximum speed is no longer 50 MPH since the removal of field shunting...
In addition, the specifications for the R-110A and B called for 2 MPH/second -- is that how they were built? (from the specifications for the R-110A cars, Volume 2 of 5, page T3-6: "3.3.3.A. Accelerations-Tractive Effort Commands -- With the dead time and jerk rate limits specified in 3.3.3.E and F, the running time for 0.5 mile shall be 65 seconds with an initial acceleration rate not exceeding 2.0 mph/sec. and a braking rate of 3.0 mph/sec. Automatic speed maintenance control as defined in Section 14.2.6 shall be provided.")
David
I don't have the R-46 specs at home & you could be correct. Keep in mind that the R-46 had a different gear ratio than the 60' cars. For now I'll accept the 2.5 MPH/Sec Accelleration. The brake rates I think are reversed however.
I used the R-46 book because it was the one I grabbed off the shelf. It's typical of the specs for GOH cars, though, as far as propulsion and braking rates. And yes, the gear ratio is different, to compensate for the cars' greater weight compared to 60-foot cars, but the propulsion and braking specs are the same.
David
I agree with you, David. The "classic" SMEE car specs call
for 2.5mphps acceleration rate, which was a modest improvement
over the 1.75 rate of the R1-9 cars
Your anger is understandable. I would get angry when this question would come up way back when and I was a voice alone - except for one supporter. Even after we proved that position, the question continued to be raised at nauseum. The uninformed would say "Don't confuse me with the facts because my mind is made up."
I will continue to state the facts as they are. Perhaps we can educate a few more each time this question is raised. Of course, be prepared for the question to be asked in 'different' ways. THEY will only be happy when they get the answer they want.
I absolutely agree TD. I guess that these people that take this "hard-line" stance must think that we're imbeciles or something.
Don't let them get to ya ... everybody needs to be reminded that in general, B division trains run MUCH faster than C division trains. :)
Yeah......um well..........maybe.
Max speed for a work train is 25 mph on straight track. OK Sel, I'll give ya that one.
See? Everyone's a weiner at subtalk. :)
Better a weiner than a loser.
Want fries with that? Moo. :)
Not if the B division train is behind the c division train on the same track :-(
Heh. Ya gotta leave 5 minutes earlier to be on time then. I s'pose that's also why the couplers on the rider cars are different - eliminates the urge to knock cars and do some other than head end operation of a train. :)
But for those who think the subway's a bit slow (and I agree that it IS compared to years ago) there's nothing like a ride on a flatcar to convince them that things ain't so bad in revenue service.
Is this directed at me?
This is what I claimed: "I'll just point out that, while BMT fans rave about the speeds on the Brighton express, numerous IRT express runs and even a few local runs are faster."
If that's not true, I stand corrected, but you'll notice that my claim only addresses speeds on one particular section of track. In fact, I was commenting primarily on the perceptual issue by noting that an express run that is perceived as fast (at least by many on this board) is actually not terribly fast at all.
It was not directed at you! It was directed at everyone who raises this issue in one form or another several times a month to the point of nausea. Which cars are faster? Which lines are faster? which divisions are faster? These are meaningless comparrisons because they are based on limited experience in uncontrolled circumstances. Some trains feel faster while some feel smoother. The fact is that if you look at a line like the N, they may use 4 different types of equipment. The running times do not vary. The time for the R-32 is the same for the R-40 which is the same for the R-68 which is the same for the R-68A.
>>> Which cars are faster? Which lines are faster? which divisions are faster? These are meaningless comparrisons <<<
It seems even more meaningless to those of us on the left coast since top speeds in New York are rarely above 50 mph, while our toy system in Los Angeles reaches 70 mph on the Red Line at one point, and loafs along at 57 mph (limited by operating rule, not the equipment) on the Green Line.
Tom
well, what the 1 train use? R 62's? If so...the R 62's are newer...and better...also, if you had to pull 100 extra pounds with you around each day, wouldn't you go a bit slower?
In the movie Along Came a Spider they go into the Metro from Union Station in WAshington DC in what is obviously not the Metro. Was the subway scenes filmed in Baltimore?
Yes, that was Baltimore MTA's subway.
For some reason, they seem paranoid at WMATA....and they simply do not allow filming on their system for the entertainment industry (and nowadays, probably not for enthusiasts either). So every movie depicted in Washington, DC where action heads into the subway, it gets filmed in Baltimore.
Another such movie..."No Way Out" with Kevin Costner.
WMATA's probably afraid that John Waters will sneak into town and shoot some film. :)
That was especially glaring in "The Jackal." The setting was supposedly in Washington DC, but the subway scenes in the end of the picture looked more like that of Montreal rather than DC.
It was Montreal. They were in Lionel Groulx station, but they called it something else in the movie. The trains in the movie were Vickers cars from the green line.
Hmmm, guess I had my movies mixed up. I don't recall having seen anything that looked like Montreal, so I must have been thinking of another movie.
I'm talking about "The Jackal" in this case... I haven't seen "Along Came a Spider" yet so I can't comment on that one.
Oh, okay....no problem!!! Maybe it WAS "Along Came A Spider" after all. It wasn't a movie of MY choice, wifey wanted to see it, so I figured what the heck. (She's into that sort of movie...)
The Jackal I believe was filmed in the WMATA subway. The large concrete stairs at the station (Bruce) Willis was at to transfer from one line to the other. It really did look like Washington D.C.
Nope... STCUM Montreal Metro, Lionel Groulx Station, western intersection of the orange and green lines, lower level, north end of the station (I point it out whenever I'm in Montreal with someone who hasn't been there before).
Some Montreal Metro stations look very similar to the WMATA Metro stations. That was one of the first things I noticed when I rode the WMATA for the first time a year or so ago.
My mistake.
When Along Came a Spider was filmed, Baltimore didn't run on Sundays. That changed in September when MTA began Sunday service for the first time in almost 15 years. It was tried in the middle 80's, but got cut.
Now that we have Sunday service, I suspect that's a bye-gone.
I do know of one film in which a WMATA station was used. In The Pelican Brief when Denzel Washington and another man were talking as they rode an escalator up from the platform. You can even see and hear a train of Breda cars arriving in the station.
Wayne
Great freakin' movie! "These trains have no windows!" "You're clever, detective, you'll think of something." "CRASH!" "Now.....THROW!" LOL! Kidnap form the kidnappers. You gotta love it. I knew that b*tch was in on it somehow. I'm glad the little girl got out safe. :)
Tony
Hi folks
We got out to Isle of Wight today.
Left Waterloo station at about 0940 and got to Portsmouth Harbour at about 1110. Took ferry (took about 30 minutes) at 1120 to IOW and the journey back in time began.
We were greeted at 1220 by a train of 1938 Tube Stock, painted in dinosaur livery! I couldn't believe my eyes. Anyway, we headed out to Shanklin and got there a little before 1300. These old girls MOVE! And they make all the right sounds too, the groaning bull gears and everything, sounds like an R-7a or R-9 when it starts up. Steve: we got up to A-Flat above middle C when in full flight. Imagine a Tube train running through British countryside. Anyway, we turned round at Shanklin and came back to Ryde St. Johns, where the shoppe and maintenance facility is located. We got off and saw one carset lying in ruin on a nearby siding. I don't know what their IOW unit numbers were, but their LU numbers were 10139 and 11172. One has been gutted by fire and the other has been picked over by the parts vultures. Both are rusting away and minus their bogies. Anyway we met up with the only person at the facility and we got a treat the likes of which I have not had in many a moon - we got to see the treasure inside the shoppe - a two-car set of real 1938 Tube Stock painted in Redbird LU livery! It is under repair and refurbishment, but will be up and running within a month or two, according to the maintenance manager. Another carset was also up on the lifts having some motor work done. Anyway, we photographed this lovely British redbird and Simon has a photo ready, mine are in the camera. We then walked all the way back to Ryde High Street where we had lunch, we then took the train (38 stock again) back to Ryde Pier where we just missed the ferry back to Portsmouth. Simon gave them hell for messing up the connection. We took the 1620 back to London, arriving at Waterloo at 1800. A walk from there to Piccadilly Circus (about 40 minutes, we walked the footbridge over the River Thames to Embankment) and we got on the Bakerloo back to Paddington. Simon's on his way back to Swindon, I'm on my way back to the hotel.
Tomorrow I am going to do some more touring and hopefully I can see some of the sights - Big Ben, Parlaiment, Tower of London, etc. Now, if the sun would only come out!!! :o>
MIND THE GAP.
wayne
PS there's an air shaft leading up from Paddington Bakerloo just down the block and you can hear ALL of the 1972 MkII stock weeping and gnashing their little teeth as they go round one of the WORST subway curves I have ever seen. It's a killer.
> Imagine a Tube train running through British countryside.
Try the Central line to Epping or the Metropolitan line to Chesham if you have time...
Too bad the Epping-Ongar Central line section is closed. (It's on the Central line video, though.) Now THAT was countryside!
-Dave
Dave, I will send over a CD of all the pictures for you to post on the site including a new one of Wayne for the about section.
Careful you don't wear out the prizes :)
Simon
Swindon UK
I'm glad to year you're enjoying yourself. The 1938s should be able to do 60 mi/hr if they're allowed to reach their full speed.
On another note, there's a good Italian restaurant in Kensington High Street called Scoff's Eating House - don't pay any attention to the name, the food's great and the prices are quite reasonable. If you take the Underground to Kensington High Street station (Circle line) you can get to this place by taking a left turn on to Kensington High St. from the station exit and it's just past the Odeon theatre which has a couple of trees by it.
-Robert King
know what the file number was when they ran out of jobs over there?
It was around 3235 in the B.
Its around 3000 Because last pick i was 2994 And I barely got something
I am 3225, when I pick the B Division there were still three more jobs left. I got the last C division Extra-list with set days off and rest had days off that can be changed.
Robert
Actually, I keep forgetting the A pick got moved back.
This is a bit of a surprise to me as I thought the number would be higher than the B didvision number by about 100 not lower by 200.
9/11 did change things for the new pick, too. Well I will ask again after you guys pick.
No anthrax on the 6. Is that why it's been closed from Pelham to Parkchester on the weekends?
No, track replacement.
Mark
My favorite all-time subway cars were the SIRT cars, unofficially known as "E-types," numbers 2900 - 2924 all motors (5 trailer cars were also in the deal but never operated). The SIRT cars were obtained in 1953 from the SIRT, as they were made surplus when the South Beach and North Shore lines were abandoned. At that time, the TA was very short of cars, as the IND was about to be extended over the BMT Culver Line to Coney Island.
When the TA received them, there were certain modifications made, such as removing the roof headlights. Some windows were sealed, painted over with the word "glass" stenciled on them. Other windows were still operable and could be opened from the bottom for cool breezes on hot days. Also, the old SIRT window guards were retained. The rattan seats were covered over in a red plastic. They operated on the following routes: Franklin Shuttle, West End Short Line, Culver Shuttle, and a rush-hour Culver-Nassau via Bridge, Express on 4th Ave. What a great ride it was to ride a rush-hour Culver Express, sitting by an open window with all the sounds and the smells blowing through the window! They were retired in 1960 as the first of the R27's came on line.
Mine is the "Gibbs Car" Hi-V, #3352. It's at the Seashore Trolley Museum. While it's stuck behind a number of "tarped wonders," and has some mechanical issues at the moment, it's the best subway car I've ever had the pleasure of running -- or riding on.
Mine
IRT:R62
IND:R46 and R68
BMT:R40 and R40 slants.
CTA 6000's -- boyhood iniation to the wonders of the L
"IND:R46 and R68"
Some of my first memories of being a railfan (which goes back to the mid 1980s) were riding these same cars. The E and F had them (with the blue stripe), while the R and G had the older models, my guess is the R-32 and R-38. of course all this changed in the early 1990s when those lines swapped trains, and LCD signs were added and the blue stripe was removed iduring the rebuild.
I also remember the cars that had the double circle windo display on the doors, but the last model that had them (R15, R16?) were retired by 1987 or 88. -Nick
Those cars looked so much better with the blue stipe. The same goes for the LIRR MU's. Metro North's look so much better because of the the stripe.
the last remainiong cars with front circular windows to be retired were the R17s with 6688 and its group of 12 redbirds, and 1 greenbird
The double circle windows in the doors were only on the R15s (IRT) and R11/34.
R16 (BMT/IND) and R17 (IRT) had round windows in the car-end doors, but rectagular in the side doors.
I think the R38s look the best....and my best memories are of the Slant R40s on the E & F Express runs.
Even today, I can tell just by the sound when a Slant enters a station, or is crossing the Manahttan Bridge.
I only remember them on the Culver, they were great especially on the Culver-Nassau Loop
A footnote to those SIRT cars on the BMT is that the SIRT could very badly have used them back after part of their remaining fleet got toasted at Clifton. Perhaps they were too modified or abused on the TA, but they never returned.
In 1965 the SIRT had a fleet of 53, 48 of which were required for rush hour service (5 spares), which made for some very heads-up railroading. SIRT considered both B-types (some were set aside) and D-types, but this never happened either.
Paul,
TIE! of course. ABs and D-types! (wouldn't want to offend you or Fred)A close second would be the R1/9 series.
Without a doubt for SMEE equipment the R32s are where it's at, with the Kawasaki 142s restoring my faith, with all their wonderful and unique sounds.
We've Got: Hot Lunch!
I always like it when the D Triplexes are remembered. Those were my trains and I reveled in them with every ride. The #4 Sea Beach Triplex of my youth. There are some things that we never forget and that was one of them for me.
At least you remember something.
That's what I really like about you Robert, a real smart ass.
If I can t pick on a real clse friend, then who can I pick on. I found a new hot dog relish here in Winchester Sweet ONION/GARLIC
Just don't have that combination if we wind up railfanning next year, or you'll have an entire car all to yourself.:-)
Unless, of course, the rest of us chow down on pork and beans. Then we'd get thrown off the train for having a fart contest.
They still go together like peanut butter and jelly, right?:-) I'd say milk chocolate and peanut butter.
MY all time favs were the BMT Standards. Three types of roof lines, large interior, nice seating, all the right sounds and an openable railfan window.
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't forget the private seats in the former motorman compartments.
I don't think I would have ever become a subway buff if it weren't for the D-Type Triplexes or the BMT Standards. Those were my all time favorites to ride in. Nothing to this day even comes close. Of the cars I only know about through books - the BMT Bluebird was the finest piece of equipment to ever ride the rails!!!
My Favorite Subway Cars is the R-32,R-46,R-62/R-62A,and R-68/R-68A.
The Subway Cars that I like the most is the R-40S and R-142/R-142A.
The 40's slant nose are the best, just because they are so unusual.
Trying to make up for lost time,I came up with 10 questions concerning past,preasent and future subway lines.
1.How was subway cars delivered to the 3 Avenue line in the Bronx?
2.Why does the G always have to get reduced subway cars?
3.Speaking of the G why doesn't it get a yearly rating like all of the other lines?
4.What happened to the R110B and what will become of the R110A?
5.Is the 3 Avenue line needed today and if so what will it cost?
6.An off topic question,Is Rector street on the 1 and 9 really that useless with out Cortland Street?
7.Another off topic question,what is the chance of finding both of the black boxes at Ground zero?
8.Is there still plans to send Staten Island to New Jersy(I fell this affects the MTA and me)?
9.Is canal street really sinking?
10.An opinion question,if you could keep any elevated line at would it be?
I really need this for my current and future projects so please respond(I know it sounds despreat)
1. The Gun Hill Road connection from the White Plains line
2. Who knows?
3. It does.
4. The R110B is still in service, actually. It runs on the C line.
5. Wouldn't the TA thought of that before they demolished it?
6. How can the #1 get to Rector without going through Cortlandt?
7. Slim to nil, and Slim just left the building.
8. Poor Staten Islanders, in the middle of a tug-of-war fight between NY and NJ, which they have little control of.
9. If it is made of quicksand, of course.
10. I would keep the 123rd - 135th Street span on the Broadway line, it being one of the 3 elevated spans in Manhattan (the Metro-North and the span from Dyckman on north).
1. IDK
2. It doesn't need them
3. It doesn't go to Manhattan so the ratings would be wierd.
4. 110B reenters service when the V runs on the C traain, 110A is rumored to return and to be sent to the scrap heap.
5. You mean 2nd Avenue. Yes and IDK.
6. IDK
7. Who knows. I was down there on Friday, it looks like they got quite a bit of work to do.
8. WHAT???
9. Presumebly
10. Why get rid of them? I hope they learned not to demolish els before their replacements open.
Sorry for the CAPS, which are the answers.
"1.How was subway cars delivered to the 3 Avenue line in the Bronx?
AS STATED BEFORE, THE W.P.R. LINE
2.Why does the G always have to get reduced subway cars?
DON"T REALLY KNOW, PERHAPS REDUCED RIDERSHIP
3.Speaking of the G why doesn't it get a yearly rating like all of the other lines?
DON'T KNOW THAT ONE.
4.What happened to the R110B and what will become of the R110A?
THE R-110B WAS REPORTED BEING TESTED AND MAY BE RUNNING IN SERVICE. THE R-110A IS IN MOTHBALLS IN PITKIN YARD. THE TA IS OCCUPIED WITH THE R-143s RIGHT NOW, THEY'LL DECIDE LATER.
5.Is the 3 Avenue line needed today and if so what will it cost?
PROBABLY NOT, IF SO, BIG BUCKS.
6.An off topic question,Is Rector street on the 1 and 9 really that useless with out Cortland Street?
ON TOPIC QUESTION.........YES, YOU CAN'T USE ONE WITH THE OTHER.
7.Another off topic question,what is the chance of finding both of the black boxes at Ground zero?
WITH EVERY BIT OF DEBRIS BEING SIFTED AT FRESH KILLS, I WOULD SAY VERY GOOD. HOWEVER WHEN THEY FIND THE REMAINS OF THE HIJACKERS, THEY CAN TOSS THEM WITH THE REST OF THE GARBAGE AT FRESH KILLS.
8.Is there still plans to send Staten Island to New Jersy(I fell this affects the MTA and me)?
THAT ISSUE COMES AND GOES WITH WHAT CITY HALL ADMINISTRATION IS PRESENT AND HOW BAD STATEN ISLAND IS BEING FORGOTTEN OR TAKEN FOR GRANTED.
9.Is canal street really sinking?
CANAL ST. (STATION) IS REALLY STINKING, YOU CAN THANK THE UPSTAIRS FISH VENDORS.
10.An opinion question,if you could keep any elevated line at would it be?
I'D KEEP THEM ALL. BUS REPLACMENTS DON'T REALLY CUT IT AND SUBWAY CONSTRUCTION IS CO$TLY AND SLOW.
I really need this for my current and future projects so please respond(I know it sounds despreat)
I'll answer what I know.
2. I thought G trains always had shortened trains.
3. Speaking of ratings, where can I find them?
4. R110B is in C service. I rode it exactly once from 34 St. Penn to 81 St. - Museum of Natural History. I made some helpful observations from it. IDK of the R110A.
6. When is the last time you've checked "IRT Cortlandt St. Damage Photos" within the domain of this site? According to the photos, (which are real), I don't see a possible way for trains to get through to Rector. Once you've looked at them I think you'll agree with me.
: ( ( thing what happened there. (My feelings can't show up on the web).
7. I'm not sure of the black boxes at ground zero, but I am sure of 2 other black boxes which were beyond repair and sent to a certain co. to handle them. As of now, the pilot's voice recorder seems more helpful than black boxes.
9. What do you mean 'it's sinking'?
10. As of now, I don't have any favorites, (as I've never ridden any of the Brooklyn elevated lines, the Pelham line in the elevated stretch, and I rode a Bronx-bound 2 train to E. Tremont Av., and came back on Allerton Av. once, neither the N or the R in the elevated stretch, and if there be any thing elevated that I have not mentioned except the Flushing line)
The Flushing line seems most appealing to me (I don't have a stretch, as I don't ride in in rush hour.) since I've ridden the most and know most about it. I include the historical W/F cars there which will be replaced by R62(A)'s .....
Again, I've given you what I could to help with your 'project', and I'm sure others would be interested in answering your questions too.
Best Regards,
Railfan Pete
I'll answer what I know.
2. I thought G trains always had shortened trains.
3. Speaking of ratings, where can I find them?
4. R110B is in C service. I rode it exactly once from 34 St. Penn to 81 St. - Museum of Natural History. I made some helpful observations from it. IDK of the R110A.
6. When is the last time you've checked "IRT Cortlandt St. Damage Photos" within the domain of this site? According to the photos, (which are real), I don't see a possible way for trains to get through to Rector. Once you've looked at them I think you'll agree with me.
: ( ( thing what happened there. (My feelings can't show up on the web).
7. I'm not sure of the black boxes at ground zero, but I am sure of 2 other black boxes which were beyond repair and sent to a certain co. to handle them. As of now, the pilot's voice recorder seems more helpful than black boxes.
9. What do you mean 'it's sinking'?
10. As of now, I don't have any favorites, (as I've never ridden any of the Brooklyn elevated lines, the Pelham line in the elevated stretch, and I rode a Bronx-bound 2 train to E. Tremont Av., and came back on Allerton Av. once, neither the N or the R in the elevated stretch, and if there be any thing elevated that I have not mentioned except the Flushing line)
The Flushing line seems most appealing to me (I don't have a stretch, as I don't ride in in rush hour.) since I've ridden the most and know most about it. I include the historical W/F cars there which will be replaced by R62(A)'s .....
Again, I've given you what I could to help with your 'project', and I'm sure others would be interested in answering your questions too.
Best Regards,
Railfan Pete
8) I beleive the last time land changed hands between states was when West Virgina was created as a reward of sorts for its loyalty to the Union during the Civil War, 145 years ago. I'm not sure about Ellis Island, Is it,was it federal, then N.Y. or N.J.
After the War of Independance, so states had claimes to land in the Midwest, but the fed resolved that.
At one time Ohio was claimed by Connettecuit. Maine was claimed by Massechewit! My spelling sucks.
avid
This past Thursday evening, I was attending an event in New York. I held a ticket for the 2:00 Acela Express (2168) leaving Washington, arriving at Penn Station at 4:45. I took the Metro to Union Station (highlight of the day-I got the operator who I had daily for 9 months) and picked up lunch. I then walked to the gate, and found a long line, spilling out of the waiting area and into the walkway. I got on line and a few minutes later, they started boarding. There was no quiet car (why can't they have a quiet car on crowded trains???) so I went to the business class car closest to the front (first car was first class). We pulled out at about 2:01 and slowly navigated the switches north of the station. The first indication something was wrong was when we didn't accelerate after clearing the switches. My suspicions were confirmed when it was requested over the PA the technician go to the engine. We stopped near the DCPS school bus yard and sat for about 10 minutes, during which time, the conductor announced they were having engine trouble. I called ahead to inform I was going to be about 20 minutes late. We started moving quite slowly. The conductor started coming through to collect tickets. I heard over his radio something about being run around near Baltimore, at which time he stopped collecting and walked out of the car. He then announced that "the technician has fixed the train but it can only run at 79 MPH all the way to Boston." He also told us we could take Train 186, which would arrive before the Acela. Since I was in a rush, I packed up my stuff, rushed to where he was, and asked him about when the trains would be arriving, and about 2170. He knew NOTHING! I got off at BWI, where he told us that 186 would arrive in 1 or 2 minutes. 2168 lingered a bit, then closed up and pulled out. 186 was nowhere in sight.
After about 3 or 4 minutes, I decided to go to the ticket office to inquire about 2170. Both agents were busy. I walked back out to the platform and 186 was coming in. I happened to be where the conductor got off so I asked him the same questions again. Again, another ignorant employee. I got on the train, figuring if I let it go, I'd be out of luck. I dumped my stuff on a seat, then went to find someone who I knew was going to be on that train. Found him in another car, which had not been refurbished, and then went to move my stuff back. The conductor announced more AE passengers would be getting on at Baltimore. I asked both conductors about my satisfaction guarentee, the first told me "I'm not the one to ask", the second said "go to the ticket office at your earliest convienence." The conductor on 2168 said "ask the conductor on the next train". I, as most of the new arrivals on the train, were not usual passengers on the unreserved trains so the conductor actually had to announce "there is no business or first class on this train, just sit down where you can find a seat." He then said all seats would be needed.
I soon discovered my reading light was burnt out, I had no legroom, the tray table was half the size of that on the Acela, and my seat was sinking downward! Quite a difference between the Express and the Regional!
At Baltimore, more people got on. Most appeared to be Acela Express passengers. They said that it was announced 2168 would wait 45 minutes before leaving but it left right away instead, as did we. We passed 2168 before the first river crossing between Baltimore and Wilmington.
My next discovery was not only was this a really uncomfortable, poorly lit train, it made every imaginable stop! We stopped at Baltimore, Aberdeen, Newark, DE, Wilmington, Philly, Trenton, Metropark, Newark Airport, Downtown Newark, and FINALLY, New York Penn. Not only that, we seemed to dwell at each station for quite a long time. We sat at Metropark for almost 5 minutes and Trenton and EWK for about 3 each. Oddly, we spent hardly anytime at some of the more major stations.
We were about 20 minutes late until Philly, where a long dwell made us about 30 minutes late. We got to Penn Station at about 6:15 PM, about 35 minutes later than the scheduled 5:37 arrival for 186. As I stated previously, 2168 was due at 4:45.
The worst part, was that 2170 passed us just south of Trenton. As I said, I wanted to get on this train, because I had a feeling it would overtake the Regional. I know someone on that train, too, and I will find out how her trip was on Monday. Not a single employee even bothered to inform us that train 2170 was in existance. I heard rumors it was sold out (never confirmed), but if it wasn't why couldn't the 2168 passengers use 2170 and if it was, they could have at least said SOMETHING!
On Friday, I went to Penn Station to inquire about a refund of at least the difference between Express and Regional, if not the whole trip (satisfaction guarentee). I went to customer service, who referred me to the ticket window, which had a line I estimated to be 30-45 minutes long. I wanted to go railfanning (see post later tonite or tomorrow) so I decided I would try again at a later time. I didn't have time before the trip home this evening but at Washington, I went to the ticket window, and had two very helpful employees help me and refund me the difference between the two trains. Tomorrow, I am calling Amtrak to speak with Customer Relations to see if I can get more back due to the poor service.
The rest of my trip was fine, I will post about that later tonight or tomorrow sometime.
guess the Bobardier lawyers won't want to depose the tech from that trip. As to Customer Satisfaction--my experience is call the 800 # I had a very sensible rep deal with a multidisastrous trip last spring--coupons arrived by mail AS PROMISED.
No wonder why Congress wants to yank the plug on Amtrak. It's a real disgrace. I think we should sell Amtrak to whatever company runs all those successful high speed lines in Europe. Amtrak has failed, it is time we bring a company that has proven itself successful in high speed rail service, to buy Amtrak.
It was one horribly handled event. Give them a break. It is better than flying!
Ummm ... those "competent companies in Europe" are the governments running trains under public benefit corporations that look and smell JUST like Amtrak. Only difference is they don't have OUR congress and thus the trains run. Rails are nearly adequately funded over yonder by people willing to pay their taxes for it. Makes a difference.
first off, most of those "companies" SNCF pour exemple are the government, and unlike here get a serious budget. For a taste of the difference, (I paraphrase from memory) in the article on the latest French TGV line, there was an estimate of serious deficit in the several years of operation, BUT the policy was that it would remove 30k riders per year from Air France thus negating expansion needs for air service. When its only one pocket to the other the issuesare much simpler. If the national policy is to discourage air and encourage rail, it is simply moving counters on the board. Here it is a question of which campaign contributor to favor and thus the decisions are by nature less rational. THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR ATK's generally mediocre service.
The companies who run the trains in Europe except the UK are their goverments. In the UK it has gone private and has been a diaster ask Simon Billis
So why is it run better in Europe?? I have a feeling that they have better equipment. Well it is known that the U.S. National rail infrastructure has been neglected compared to European nations. With all this airline problems going on, we should be investing much more $$ in our rail system.
Is Amtrak's problems partially related to some of the old Pennsy influence over there? The Pennsy had alot of problems also, and it was privately owned.
Passenger railroads are better run in Europe because the government PAYS for it to be better run, rather than trying to find ways to cut costs regardless of the consequences. European taxpayers, because a significantly greater number of them are dependent on the railroads, recognize that passenger service is a public necessity rather than the luxury that many Americans and their Congressmen think it is, and therefore they are willing to pay the tax bill for that service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Size of the relative countries also has a lot to do with that. Because rail systems in European nations benefit a higher percentage of each nation due to their smaller size, you do not have the problems you do funding-wise in the U.S., that is senators and representatives outside of the Northeast Corridor, Midwest and (more and more) the Pacific Corridor asking "What's in it for us?" to fund Amtrak at the same levels as the high-speed systems are funded over in Europe.
Combine that with the fact that rail does serve very few people in about 35 of the 50 states and the fact that the owners of the rail lines (UP, BNSF, CSX) would really prefer that Amtrak keep its trains off their lines, and you get a service that doesn't have the required constiuency it needs to get increased funding for higher speed lines, and certainly not for the passengers-only Bullet Train tracks that would have to be built to really make rail service competative with the airlines (and ironically, the easiest places to built those tracks, which would have to be elevated or sunk into the ground to avoid any grade crossings, are in the states who get the least out of Amtrak right now and whose reps are most opposed to any new funding that doesn't benefit their areas).
The companies who run the trains in Europe except the UK are their goverments. In the UK it has gone private and has been a diaster ask Simon Billis If you want good Private on time, ask the Japaneese
There are no sucessful hi-speed lines in Europe. They are all Billions in debt and have stuff that goes out of its way to be hostile and they have fares that make Amtrak look like some sort of bargain basement operation. 10 days of dealing w/ SNCF is enough for one lifetime.
STAFF that goes out of its way to be hostile. And satisfaction guarenteed? HA!
79mph eh? Sounds like some sort of computer or cab signaling problem. I think they were forced to disable the ATC.
For the "Satisfaction Guaranteed" program, forget the personnel onboard or in the stations. Just call 1-800-USA-RAIL, and ask for a Customer Relations Representative. Tell them your story, and give them your reservation and/or ticket number. Your refund will arrive within 10 days. I've had to do it a few times, and it's never been a problem.
I am flabbergasted that you would use that service. Amtrak desperately needs money and there you are stealing food from its mouth. Aside from the fact that as a railfan, buting Amtrak tickets should be considereda form of charitable giving, the experiance of getting to ride a train should be more than enough to make you satisfied. I consider it getting more bang for my buck. When my Three Rivers was 4 hours late to chicago I was thrilled. I got to see more of the line in the daytime.
I am flabbergasted that you would use that service. Amtrak desperately needs money and there you are stealing food from its mouth ... as a railfan, buting Amtrak tickets should be considereda form of charitable giving ... getting to ride a train should be more than enough to make you satisfied ... When my Three Rivers was 4 hours late to chicago I was thrilled.
You ARE joking, right Mike? 'Cause while the above may or may not apply to the folks on this board (not to me, that's for sure), it sure as heck doesn't apply to the general riding public.
As they say, ain't no way to run a railroad. Amtrak's gotta be able to provide a service paying riders want. Otherwise they'll stop paying.
I ride Amtrak because I am a railfan and I love trains and I can't stand driving. Driving in East Coast traffic is a fate worse than hell and for Amtrak to emulate that experiance they would have to drag me behind the train or something. As it is not only will I get to my destination, I'll get to railfan all the way there. I don't care about the general public here. Railfans get enjoyment simply from riding or watching trains. They often pay money to ride around simply for the sake of riding around. If Railfans are satisfied by that then they should be satisfied my an Amtrak ride that took a few extra hours. Using the guarentee programme is simply an effort to obtain that fun for free. Every time that do it they are just one step closer to having the NEC turned into a BusWay. They are trading in rail trips in the future for free rail trips now.
Using the guarentee programme is simply an effort to obtain that fun for free. Every time that do it they are just one step closer to having the NEC turned into a BusWay. They are trading in rail trips in the future for free rail trips now.
Well, I doubt that the combined efforts of railfans riding Amtrak will make a lot of difference one way or the other. But I don't see why railfans should settle for anything less than competitive quality.
As railfans, I'd say it's our duty to advocate EVEN MORE LOUDLY for the better service that will attract/retain paying riders and keep the trains we love alive.
Of course, whether those trains are run by Amtrak is a totally different issue!
Perhaps we'd best agree to disagree .....
Having worked railroads, I'd never give the Amtrak guys a hard time. Want to improve service on Amtrak? Fastest and easiest way is to equip all locomotives with a howitzer in the nose so the BLE brother can wipe out those CSX'ers blocking the track, take out a tower if it looks like a slow freight is about to be switched in front of ya. THAT would solve many of the more egregious problems.
RAMMING SPEED! :)
>>>I don't care about the general public here.<<<
UMM...if it weren't for the general public AMTRAK wouldn't exist.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't care about the general public here. Railfans get enjoyment simply from riding or watching trains. They often pay money to ride around simply for the sake of riding around. If Railfans are satisfied by that then they should be satisfied my an Amtrak ride that took a few extra hours.
It's all too easy to forget that railfans are a very small minority. Amtrak cannot survive if it appeals solely to railfans. Most riders are dissatisfied if their Amtrak ride takes a few hours too long. Even a considerably smaller delay is too long for many people. Amtrak's long-term survival is dependent upon its providing convenient and on-time service to the "general public."
So just because railfans are a minority it makes it ok to deprive Amtrak of revenue? The whole theme of charity is "every little bit helps". Let's try to support Amtrak every which way we can.
While this may be very true on the northeast corridor and other high frequency corridors (as Amtrak calls them: high speed corridors, despite the fact that some subways have higher speeds), I don't know how true this is on long distance trains, especially for longer trips that are not competetive at all with flying. How many people who ride the Empire Builder from Chicago to Seattle, or the Southwest Chief from LA to Chicago, or the Silver Star from NYC to Miami would not be considered railfans? I would imagine that flying those distances would be faster and cheaper.
If you want to give charity to Amtrak, be my guest. Some people actually buy train tickets in an attempt to get somewhere in a reasonable time. It's refreshing to learn that Amtrak has a better notion of customer service than the airlines.
I tend to agree with you.
This past winter, my journey from Mississippi back to Sweden was disrupted by a delay on my flight from Jackson, Miss., to Cincinnati on Delta. I arrived at the gate for my CVG-JFK flight literally *one minute* after it was scheduled to depart, and they had already let it go.
The result of this was (1) that I had to fly via Paris (CDG) and, therefore, change planes in Europe the next day, which I was trying to avoid (I can never sleep on planes, and I hate having to stay awake that next day in order to make a connection), and (2) I was about six hours late getting to Stockholm.
After I wrote to Delta asking for a refund of part of my ticket price, they responded with a rather nasty letter that basically amounted to, "Well, we don't owe you anything, but as a goodwill gesture, here's a coupon good for $200 off your next ticket."
They can bite my lily-white @$$, not to put too fine a point on it, say there's another bee in your bonnet.... :-)
-- Tim
This might come as a surprise, but even railfans expect to arrive on time. I certainly do. Calling in for a customer service certificate sends a message to Amtrak they need to improve. Before the certificate, you might get a response from Amtrak NOT answering your complaint but answering the question they want to answer.
I say keep up the pressure on Amtrak to improve.
As for the Acela train, it sounds like the train had cab signal problems. According to NORAC rule 554, inoperative cab signals limit the train to 40 mph. The train dispatcher can invoke rule 556 and permit a train to run a maximum 79 mph. Why 79 mph? Because that's the maximum a train can run in signalled territory without cab signals.
On freight railroads, the top speed is 79 because very few have cab signals. Of course, the speeds are adjusted are curves and other physical characteristics of the territory.
Michael
IIRC, the MAS for a train with dead ASC on the New Haven line is 40mph, period. That part of the NEC isn't NORAC, and Metro-North has their own signal system and rule book (which I've heard from people is written/implemented better than NORAC anyway...)
I guess the conductor failed to point *that* out to everyone. Wonder how late the train was when it got to Boston.
Of course, why Amtrak was sending out bad equipment, especially on a premium train, is another story. IMHO, it's just an example of the piss poor management and sloppy ops that hhave plagued Amtrak since it's inception...
Per the original message, the writer was only travelling as far as New York so comments about Metro North aren't germane to the conversation.
Michael
Of course, why Amtrak was sending out bad equipment, especially on a premium train, is another story. IMHO, it's just an example of the piss poor management and sloppy ops that hhave plagued Amtrak since it's inception...
Of they just lack the necessary funding to provide adequate maintainence. Blame the bad mamagement on Capitol hill b4 you blame Amtrak.
I looked on amtrak.com. It was about 2 hours late to Boston.
It was a customer feedback thing, not a "you suck so give me my money thing". The refund was just on the side.
As an Amtrak customer, it is my duty (and yours, too, IMO) to inform them when they fall apart. I called for my refund yesterday and it is in the mail The person who I spoke with said he could tell I was concerned more about the future, not getting a refund and he appreciated it. The only way Amtrak will improve their customer service is if people call them, not if Congress gives them more money.
And people wonder why Amtrak's ridership is stale, they can't grow market share, and are under the gun.
Even rail supporters on both sides are finding it hard to advocate amtrak, and the comments of the ARC members who voted for liquidation, show that this isn't simply a "let's kill the poor railroad" operation.
Forget arguing Amtrak with Amtrak supporters. Most would be giddy with delight to just be stuffed into a boxcar and run around a rail yard at 15mph.
Of course, those who try to use Amtrak as a form of transportation, are sorely dissaspointed.
The arguements for Amtrak are poor, at best. The arguments for intercity rail aren't.
"Typical Amtrak", sorry to say! Having invested in hundreds of Amtrak trips and having experienced very little satisfaction at the most basic level involving a large number of rail ticket purchases recently (including a rare but unbelievable coast-to-coast trip in 1999), yours truly does not make Amtrak a "first choce" but, rather, a "when I have all the time in the world" choice. That choice is still available from time to time. When taken, it certainly does hightlight the philosphy behind one's travel options.
It is better than flying. Amtrak is great, when it works. People don't care when it works. They get on the train, ride, and get off. No complaints are needed. When it breaks down and they handle it as crappily as they did last week, then people care, badmouth about them, and ruin their reputation.
9 times out of 10, Amtrak doesn't do the job. That ain't perfection.
All of these true stories, including this one, really gives me a bad impression about AMTRAK service. I've never been on an AMTRAK train before, because of the high fare prices, but even with the Service Guarantee, I really look at AMTRAK and don't have a forward look anymore.
Well I guess I'll have to wait until I get to experience a ride on my own. It'll take a miracle for AMTRAK to start serving passengers right again!
FWIW, Amtrak service within the boundaries of upstate New York is generally pretty good east of Syracuse and up and down the Hudson. Can't say much for elsewhere, but we're pretty happy with it on a daily basis up here.
Well that's good. The more good things we have, the better. But upstate New York and Syracuse is a hundred miles away from where I live.
Well, I've also seen from an AMTRAK statistic that the Southwest Chief has the worst on-time record. But that was from about a year ago.
I want AMTRAK to shape up so they don't arouse strife and anger toward the customers, and esp. for Congress dealing with the liquidation of AMTRAK and such.
Well, the reason why Amtrak is semi-OK upstate is because we New Yorkers chip in SERIOUS cash to make it so. Upstate Amtrak service *PROVES* that the reason why Amtrak sucks elsewhere is a LACK OF FUNDING and not the folks who leap into the cabs and coaches every day. You can't run a railroad on broken equipment on tracks that aren't maintained over railroads that aren't paid enough to clear a signal for your train when it costs them money to do so.
But upstate is a perfect example of what can happen if there's working equipment and a willingness to pay for service.
Well, the reason why Amtrak is semi-OK upstate is because we New Yorkers chip in SERIOUS cash to make it so. Upstate Amtrak service *PROVES* that the reason why Amtrak sucks elsewhere is a LACK OF FUNDING and not the folks who leap into the cabs and coaches every day. You can't run a railroad on broken equipment on tracks that aren't maintained over railroads that aren't paid enough to clear a signal for your train when it costs them money to do so.
Amtrak also does well in Upstate NY because the area's exhorbitant air fares reduce the competition it otherwise would face from the airlines.
It'll be interesting to see how Southwest at Albany and Jet Blue at other Upstate airports change matters, especially after memories of September 11 die down.
Well, deregulation for ya as far as the air rates go - and the discounters do business ... but mostly to WAY out of town, not NYC or Syracuse. Last I heard a couple of weeks ago was that train use here is up by about 11% but that trend was already underway before WTC as more people had been moving upstate from Long Island anyway and still have jobs down there. You also have a lot of state workers travelling back and forth, and because of the state subsidizing Amtrak, there's a reciprocal deal that the airlines couldn't do here unless they PAID you to fly. :)
But up here, Amtrak runs fairly well most of the time. The BIG problem though is getting a seat and they've run out of cars. That's why the situation with those Turbos rotting away not yet rebuilt is killing us up here ... and despite all this, Amtrak ain't bad here.
Southwest ususally is a kick in the pants to any other airline that serves the same area it arrives in, and certainly with the annoying way certain airlines (cough, cough - US Airways - cough) jack up their prices in Upstate so they can lower fares on the more competative routes should make Southwest pretty attractive to upstate fluers who've gotten screwed around. (Plus from a regional chauvanistic stanpoint, Southwest's founder and soon-to-retire CEO Herb Kelleher is from New York City and curses like a sailor -- the airline may be based in Texas, but Herb's definitely not).
Also, Amtrak in Syracuse shot themselves in the foot when they moved their damned station all the way over to the north side of Dewitt back around 1970. It made getting there (and getting back, if they cancel the train, which I know from first hand experience) a royal pain in the butt unless you lived on the far east side of town, since the station was just about as far away from downtown as the airport.
I had heard they were going to relocate the thing to the Carosel Center mall area just north of Downtown, but I don't know if that's been done yet.
You live well over 100 miles from Syracuse or Albany.
I know, so I'll miss out on the "better than mediocre" service there. But as for the Acela Express, I have easy access to, since Metuchen is my home station, and it stops at Metropark.
(AMTRAK has added TOO MANY STOPS for the AE to be competitive with any airline shuttle.)
The issue of 'convenience' stops for 'Limited' trains has akways been vexing. In the early years of the previous century major long distance trains had 'close in' stops in upscale neighbohoods of Chicago for example in order to attract customers from those districts. Most of those withered as the neighborhoods degraded but the current BWI, Metropark,and Newark transfer are for much the same purpose. Secondly, the market for these trains often is suburban 'edge cty' residents or workers who are not downtown. In theory of course the Acela has such superior acceleration, deceleration characteristics that stops do not unduly degrade service.
A good example is the two suburban Boston stops on AE, Back Bay and Route 128. South Station, of course, is the terminal.... but it has no parking facility. It's convenient for folks who can get there via a quick taxi ride, or via subway (the Red Line stops there).
Back Bay station is on the edge of two residential neighborhoods (Back Bay and the South End), and in the heart of the Copley Square business district. The Orange Line stops there, for easy connections from other nearby areas.
Route 128 is (what a coincidence!) right off Route 128 (a.k.a. I-95) about 12 miles south of Boston. There is a new multi-level parking garage with capacity for over 1000 cars (at $10/day**). This is the station I use when I take AE to NYC. On my last trip, there were over 100 people boarding here - about 1/3 of the train's capacity.
[It's $3 day for commuters (stays under 10 hours). The garage is equipped to recognize FASTLANE, which is interoperable with E-Z Pass; thus those of us with transponders don't even have to take a ticket or pay the cashier.]
Why the parking discount for commuters?
It's really the other way around. In fact, most MBTA commuter rail parking lots charge $1 (some $2) per day. But the new garage at Route 128 is not MBTA-built/funded/operated... it's AMTRAK. So they are charging $3/day for commuters, and raise the fee to $10/day for long-term parking.
Call it what you like -- a discount for commuters or a surcharge for long-term parkers. Why? If the garage begins filling to capacity and Amtrak expands it, it's because of all the cars parked there during commuting hours.
I don't see that as an issue for now. The garage has been open for more than a year. There are four floors to the garage:
The first floor is for AMTRAK parking, and has only recently (since 9/11) approached filling. The second floor and third floors are for MBTA daily commuters, and are usually 1/3 full each. The fourth floor (roof) has never opened -- since there's no need.
I'll take this to mean that you don't know the reason behind the price disparity.
As I said in my earlier message, these prices were set by AMTRAK, which financed and built the garage. The $3/day is $1-2/day higher than the MBTA charges at its open-air lots. $10/day is less than half than Logan Airport charges for it's garage!
As with many price points set by vendors, it's an attempt to get the maximum revenue from the supply-demand curve.
A correction to my earlier post. According to the MBTA Web site, the Route 128 garage (financed and operated by AMTRAK) has 2,589 spaces. The fee is $3/day for up to 14 hours, and $10/day thereafter. So it is possible to do a round-trip to NYC on AE for only a $3 parking fee, if you do a relatively quick trip.
A further clarification. There are two entrances to the garage; those using AMTRAK are directed to one entrance which serves only the first level. MBTA patrons are directed to another entrance which services levels 2, 3, and (the unopened) roof. But it really doesn't matter where you park -- the fare collection system doesn't know, and the fee structure listed above is the same independent of where you park. So if you are a hard-working commuter heading into Boston and park at 6am but don't return to your car until after 8pm, you owe $10. When the garage was first opened over a year ago, there was some outcry about this, but it must have not been too much, since nothing was done to change the policy.
The first floor is for AMTRAK parking, and has only recently (since 9/11) approached filling. The second floor and third floors are for MBTA daily commuters, and are usually 1/3 full each. The fourth floor (roof) has never opened -- since there's no need.
A commuter parking garage that isn't completely filled to capacity each weekday? From a New York-area perspective, that's about as likely a sight as the sun rising in the west!
That's correct, Peter.
And there's another. The new (OK, 6-months old)Anderson/Woburn Regional Transportation Facility usually has only three hundred or so cars parked in its 1500 available spaces. (There are 500+ more for long-term Logal Airport shuttle bus patrons; these are in a separate, gated section where the fee is $7/day vs. $1/day for the commuter rail patrons.)
When PATCO opened the Woodcrest station, the only station opened subsequent to the opening of the line, it had a huge lot that was used to about 10 percent capacity. Recently it's been close to full.
BTW, yesterday South Jerseyans working in Philly were bailing out early on Thanksgiving Eve, because by 12:30 noon in Lindenwold, PATCO was making up 6 car trains to run to Philly.
New Carrolton on the mainline just outside of Washington DC is the same way. It went in along with Metropark just after the beginning of Metroliner service, in order to attract suburban customers who didn't want to go all the way down to Union Station. The Metrorail stop at New Carroltonm opened a few years later and made access to the site even easier for people in Prince Georges County and on the eastern side of the district.
So ... do BWI, MetroPark and New Carrolton actually generate significant ridership? The figures must exist somewhere.
In my (limited) experience riding Amtrak NY-DC, those stops just have a handful of people. But maybe I'm not riding at the right hours.
Surely those stops are better served by things like NJ Transit and MARC, not Amtrak ???
My experience with Metropark is that the early morning trains for DC and points south - the Carolinian in particular - board a significant number of passengers there. BWI generated quite a few departures on the last train I rode from Newark to DC - at 11:15 PM.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most weekend trains stop at those stations to pick up the NJT and (mainly) MARC passengers. New Carrollton is only a stop on the AE in the "peak direction", same with Metropark, with a few exceptions. Both are boarding/alighting only on Metroliners/Acelas to/from New York (Metropark) and Washington (New Carrollton).
Why does the AE stop in Stanford, CT? That is the illogical station. If I remember correctly, on 2154 on 9/5, 3 people got off there and that was it. Maybe one got on. Then again, that was one empty train. No more than 69 people the whole way from NYC to Boston.
Stamford has many corporate offices within walking or very short taxi distance of the station. (Companies there were already using Amtrak to get to meetings up and down the corridor before Acela Express.)
>>Surely those stops are better served by things like NJ
Transit and MARC, not Amtrak ???<<
Not if the person boarding is travelling beyond the NJT or MARC service area
BWI to NYZPenn for example or Metropark to Balto.
In the PRR days the Afternoon Congo skipped Trenton to save time--BECAUSE it was marketed as the premier train for mostly longer trips.
Didn't you take the Acela Express? That is an Amtrak train.
I've never been riding on an AMTRAK train before in transit. I know that Acela Express is run by AMTRAK.
But, I've been on an AMTRAK car/train twice:
1) Hoboken Festival 2000, "Celebrate the Century" Express, a dedication of AMTRAK's locomotive (looks like an AEM-7) and car (coach) [fully painted yellow with designs of stamps from top to bottom].
I walked inside the built-in museum in the Coach car, and saw how mail delivery was made with trains, and the history of it.
2) Hoboken Festival 2001. AMTRAK was very considerate to put an entire Acela Express train for display and check out the things inside.
So far, the Acela Express is the best train I've ever been in, with all the features of a typical passenger airplane, only it's better.
I've never experienced an in-transit ride on it, though.
True story from Monday: I took an Amtrak Acela Regional train from Boston to New York. The climate control in the car was appropriate (this was the most surprising to me). The conductors were pleasant. The cafe car attendant was friendly, although there was still only one (they really need more than one person in there). The coaches were all refurbished. The train was sold out. And it arrived in NY 3 minutes ahead of schedule.
Of course, the off-peak coach fare was $61 one way. I wouldn't have taken the train at all, except I had a $50 voucher from my last Amtrak ride, when the train was an hour late because of signal problems in Rhode Island.
Well of course once in a while, someone may have a lucky day and experience what you've experienced. But unfortunately that doesn't happen all the time.
Thanks for your story. It made me lighten up a bit.
Called 800-USA-RAIL a few night ago. I spoke to a friendly customer service agent, apologized for what I went through, and put a voucher in the mail with the value of the Acela Regional fare I ended up paying. The only inconvience is I have to pick up my ticket in person.
He said he could tell I was a frequent traveler and appreciated my calling.
Hopefully, when I obtain the credit, that trip will be less eventful.
In Paris, beside the 6 Line that goes by the Eiffle Tower, is there any other out door or elevated lines, and are their rail fan windows.
You'd find the answers in the Paris metro section of this web site but to summarize:
Line 1 - one open-air station (Bastille)
Line 2 - 4 open-air stations
Line 5 - 2 open-air stations
Line 6 - 13 open-air stations
Line 8 - 3 open-air stations
Line 13 - 2 open-air stations
Only 2 and 6 really have anything like an "el" structure though, the rest are surface-running portions of track with stations.
The 14-Meteor is the only line with a railfan window.
>>> The 14-Meteor is the only line with a railfan window. <<<
And that has to be the ultimate rail fan window.
Tom
Thank you
When do you think the following will happen?
WHEN WILL:
1) R-32s run on the F line
2) R-32s run on the Q line (again)
3) R-32s run on the W line (again, only saw it happen once)
4) R-142s run on the 7 line
5) The rehabilitation of Stilwell will finish
6) The rehabilitation of the Manhattan Bridge will finish
7) People will start complaining after the start of V train service
and
8) The 5 train use the outer loop to stop at South Ferry
1) December 16.
2) Perhaps when the R-160's arrive.
3) Never, as long as the W is on its current route.
4) Never.
5) Scheduled for 2005.
6) Scheduled for 2004, but I'm not holding my breath.
7) December 17, as soon as the first V begins its run.
8) Never (in regular service, at least).
Do you really think the (7) never get R142s? It may be a few years, but I bet you'll eventually see some.
:-) Andrew
I'm guessing that the 7 will keep its R-62A's until the next A Division order comes in to replace them. Given the hassle of transferring cars between the 7 and the other IRT lines, the R-142's might as well stay where they are. I may be wrong -- the next order may go entirely to the mainline, with the 7 getting the R-142's second-hand (as with the R-62A's now). But once the R-142's are all in and route assignments are finalized, I highly doubt we'll be seeing any widespread transfers to and from the 7 until the next shipment.
There will be no R142s on the #7 line, ever..there have been numerous posts on here why they cannot run there. When it comes time for the R62A's to be retired, probably in the late teens or early 2020s, the # 7 will likely get a new order. There is no sense of bringing "hand me down" R142s at that point, unless the TA wants to spend money to modify them to work on the #7. -Nick
If the #7 Line ever gets CBTC, wouldn't that be the time to consider ordering new rolling stock?
Why would would the new class of cars in 2020 be able to operate on the 7, while the R-142s would not? If the 7 can't handle R-142s (false), then would it not have the same problems with newer cars.
Corona Yard has to be rebuilt anyway, I can't imagine that it wouldn't be fully equipped with the proper servicing tools at that time.
WHEN WILL:
1) R-32s run on the F line
I think when they start running the V train. Amazing to think it!
2) R-32s run on the Q line (again)
3) R-32s run on the W line (again, only saw it happen once)
You never know.
4) R-142s run on the 7 line
Not until Corona Yard is modified to handle them, which won't be for several years. After that? Who knows.
5) The rehabilitation of Stilwell will finish
2004, right?
6) The rehabilitation of the Manhattan Bridge will finish
2004. Expect it to start again in 2005.
7) People will start complaining after the start of V train service
A microsecond after it starts running. People don't like change.
8) The 5 train use the outer loop to stop at South Ferry
I doubt it.
:-) Andrew
1.When the V runs
2.I have no Idea
3.Never
4.When the R62 Retires
5.2005
6.2004 but don't hold your breath
7.24 hours after the V starts running
8.Don't hold your breath
When do you think the following will happen?
WHEN WILL:
1) R-32s run on the F line
2) R-32s run on the Q line (again)
Don't know
3) R-32s run on the W line (again, only saw it happen once)
Don't know
4) R-142s run on the 7 line
Not in the foreseeable future, the R-62As are headed there.
5) The rehabilitation of Stilwell will finish
Possibly 2005
6) The rehabilitation of the Manhattan Bridge will finish
Possibly 2004, don't hold your breath
7) People will start complaining after the start of V train service
New Yorkers always complain, if they don't complain, they can;t exist. Also New Yorkers don't like change.
8) The 5 train use the outer loop to stop at South Ferry
Probably not. Five car platform and will the Brooklynites like it if the #5 terminated at South Ferry leaving them with only the #4. I think not !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe it's me. After 22 years of nonsense, my stamina is rather low. I could write NYCT a letter, but it is a waste of my time. They twisted the last letter I wrote making me the bad guy so a certain manager could save his face. Has the TA gone mad in over-reacting to this WTC stuff and subsequent slight budget shortfall? Line management are a bunch of nervous wrecks right now. TSS's taking trains to yards, and I'm not talking about second car operation/flagging either. TSS's going down the road to avoid an abandonent or overtime for an hourly employee........ a supt being asked by Control Center if a work gang can work somewhere at 9:30 PM unable to say yes or no but refering the people to the district supt. office. What't next, Joe Hoffman making those decisions?.....excess garbage at DeKalb Ave. (M/N/Q/R/W) southbound end of southbound platform. Is RTO chasing the garbage train away?......And the craziest thing: RTO employees having to wear Safety Vests all the time in public areas. If a motorman is in his cab, why does he have to wear it? A motormans cab is not a public area! Why the hell are we wearing uniforms for?. Isn't that enough public identification?...wearing your pass on your person. We are responsible for it and we are not allowed to keep it secure in our pocket so it won't get lost......excessive automobile checking in yards. Are we the terrorists? I don't think so. The bad guy will walk tracks or underground passageways to enter a yard (Jamaica for example) and bypass the property protection guy.....what about the passengers entering the system? Nobody is checked. You have unmanned fare entry areas,a potential trouble maker will enter undetected. People bring bags bags bags into the subway? Are these ever checked by the appropriate law enforcement people. Enough ranting, you get the idea................Any comments from my fellow employees?
When I drive, I'm asked to open the trunk of my car. I've even had the saddlebags onmy bike checked. When I use public transit, my briefcase is inspected. I don't mind even if it's overkill. As for the safety vest issue, I thought that T/Os were expressly not included. For years, cleaners and RCIs have been required to wear safety vests while performing their duties. I feel that employees should be visible to the public. As for your other point, I agree. I have no use for managers who take the cash but can't make a decision.
I agree with you that some of the hassles may be overkill. And I also agree with you that the attitude should be better safe than sorry. In Israel, uniformed security men of the railroad go through the cars before and during transit, looking more for unattended packages than for suspicious characters. During my younger days in New York, unattended packages got stolen. In this brave new world, they can pose a great threat. TA personnel should be in uniform for reassuring passengers and for easy identification by the public for emergency announcements, should unattended packages be spotted by passengers!
Bill, you are 110% right. Even before the 9/11 attack I was perceiving a dumbing down of RTO but now I'm sure that the loonies are running the assylum. I've seen things go from bad to worse in my 19 years at the TA. Here on the 7 line we have TSS's operating to avoid ABDs, outright lies by the T/Ds on when trains left the terminal (it left on time but in reality left the terminal on its follower's leaving time and not reporting it to Queensboro on the telephone so they know it's coming down late only to have QBP ask the motorman where you lost your time leaving the M/M going "uh, uh, uh"),T/D's refusing to drop an interval even when they have an excuse right there, and other nuggets like that. But for me, 9/11 was the last straw. Being a UNIFORMED EMPLOYEE, the passengers seem to be able to pick me out of a crowd on a platform fairly easily so why am I being told to wear my safety vest in my cab while operating over the road so I can heighten my visibility? The passengers always knew how to knock on my door before. This is what happens when you let a bunch of supervisors who just follow orders of superindtendents without using their God-given common sense run the show. Whew!
Im in total agreement with both of you guys. The vest issue is totally ridiculous. But its an order from the Prez.............
>Here on the 7 line we have TSS's operating to avoid ABDs
BANG IT IN!
It is a violation of the contract. I usually look the other way for a TSS doing a bit of switching, a trip is something else. Stuff like that does not affect you too much but it will kill us junior people. If that starts now it will tempt them to slow down hiring and then forced extra trips will come back.
As an aside, they were so anxious to screw the XXL people that they gave SOO many people SS RDO for this week only to make sure the board was super staffed for Thansgiving. They had to ABD stuff today, they gave too many people Sunday off and they forgot to do the same for C/Rs so they had 7 board C/R's and 0 T/Os. At least I got a NL because of it.
As for the vest, I hope it is gone by summer. No one seems sure if you must wear it to the cab or in the cab. Some of this we brought on ourselves. Lots of TA employees wear pennyloafers, blue dockers, no insignia turtleneck and a funky hat. No one wants to bust chops about uniforms so we get this nuttiness in return.
Attire does mean something. A few weeks ago, I boarded the lead car of a Q at 42nd Street (the first stop, due to a GO). The cab door was wide open, but I thought nothing of it until some random guy, dressed in no way that identified him as a T/O, jumped in the cab and slammed the door. Before I knew it, we were off, and I was more than a little nervous. Whoever he was, it turns out he knew how to operate the train, but official MTA garb of some sort would have been nice.
That was probably a TSS - no uniforms required.
Yet another reason to bang it in.
Heh. You would have hated the 70's. For some of us, clothes were optional but the conductors had to wear the monkeysuits. You could usually spot the authorized motormen by the grease and steel stains on the jeans and we tended to wear our churchkeys on a chain. Other than that, it was hard to spot us. :)
Forgive me if I'm missing something here.. Airline flight personnel wear uniforms. The crews of ocan liners wear uniforms. Generals wear uniforms. Where is the problem? I will occasionally wear a safety vest when I'm on the road. If it gives the customers some measure of comfort, that's the big deal?
Not complaining - we were issued a tin badge that we put on our belts (some of the more stylish used a leather panel for it) and we did get a mighty choo choo hat ... it's just that it was a bit less formal in those days and in all sincerity, you really didn't WANT the geese to easily spot you to ask all sorts of questions or when you got your twin buzzes, you were still chraging up. :)
Nothing against formalities, I would actually find it humorous if the MTA issued tuxes ... only wish they'd let me keep my conductor's monkey suit. Alas, like the toolbag, they wanted all that stuff back when you left.
The old timers were talking about the vest thing.
They said one guy in particular was wearing suede purple ankle boots, a tank tee and 'basket' shorts while operating. I didn't realize the Village People had a Motorman.
Heh. There was this other guy who worked the northbound D out of Stillwell who was *THE* perfect biker type ... long scraggly beard, black leathers and a grateful dead skull on the back. Tattoos, red bandana on his head, the works. Even the TMO wouldn't screw with this guy and he REFUSED to show his badge. TWU 100 through and through and a hell of a nice guy. Scared the CRAP out of the geese too. Always had the lead car to himself and wasn't past dropping the lights in the car if it was empty so he could operate with the door open and his left foot out into the car so he could ride sidesaddle. Funnier than hell.
And he was DAMNED good too ... always got in early. He'd have the handle wrapped tight the SECOND he had indication and would bring his train to a nice fast smooth stop every time.
What equipment did he usually run? If he got R-32s, he probably laid steel dust when he wrapped it. As Big Ed put it so eloquently in his book, they really did "jump like jackrabbits".
He was one of my fellow R1/9'ers though he'd get 32's every now and then since he was higher up the food chain than I was. He preferred the R1/9's also which is why we were buddies. Because he was up the food chain, he did 42's and 44's a lot also. He HATED those.
Considering the Village People havn't had a hit in a while, they need a job.
Considering the Village People havn't had a hit in a while, they need a job.
Considering that at least two members of the group are dead, they need more than that :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well then, take those two guys, mount them in the middle cab of some OPTO trains and no one will be any the wiser. :)
They do club appearances, I think the Indian is the only original member.
LIRR & MNCRR engineers are not required to wear uniforms, why should NYCT t/o's have to wear them?
The cab door was wide open. Anyone could have waltzed in. Some sort of identifying attire would have calmed by nerves, at the very least.
"Some sort of identifying attire would have calmed by nerves, at the very least.
Anyone could have waltzed into the cab - yes but without a brake handle and reverser, the train would not have moved. Could a vandal have a brake handle and reverser key - yes! It's happened before. If you were concerned - you could have simply gotten off the train and waited for the next. Same as you would do if the elevator you were about to board had people in it that you perceived as a threat.
In my experience, cab doors are generally not left wide open and unattended while sitting with the car doors open in a station. In my experience, as well, brake handles and reversers are generally not left lying around.
This was a new experience to me on one front. What's to say it wasn't a new experience on another? I hadn't inspected the cab. For all I knew, the T/O had carelessly left his brake handle and reverser in the open cab while he ducked outside for a quick smoke.
The train doors closed moments after he entered the cab. As I'm sure you're aware, R-68 windows don't open wide enough for the average adult human to fit through. How was I supposed to get off the train?
LIRR & MNCRR engineers are not required to wear uniforms, why should NYCT t/o's have to wear them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought the reason given for T/O's having to wear the uniform has to do with the famous Union Square incident from nearly a decade ago.
The train derailed b/c the T/O was drunk and speeding, causing six deaths. The T/O survived, left the immediate scene, and watched emergency crews arriving from the street. The fact that he was dressed as a civilial, and not in uniform, allowed him to blend in with the public. Had he been in uniform, he may not have been able to leave the scene so easily, and his true BAC level would have been known.
The Union Square incident has nothing to do with the current directive. The current directive is to permit customers to easily identify all NYCT operating personnel. This may have a calming effect when it comes to terrorism or it may just make it easier for a customer to find someone to report things to. I just think it's a tempest in a teapot.
>>> LIRR & MNCRR engineers are not required to wear uniforms, why should NYCT t/o's have to wear them? <<<
Probably the respective union contracts.
Tom
Recently during my T/O training, I heard about a similar incident here in Stockholm in which a T/O about to enter the cab at Hötorget was knocked unconscious by a (crazy) passenger, who then boarded the train. Obviously the train didn't leave the station; the passenger was still there when the police arrived. The passenger explained that he believed the T/O was some kind of criminal about to hijack the train -- because the T/O was wearing no articles from his uniform other than the pants, which are generic-looking navy blue wool pants.
Oops.
-- Tim
I'm not a fellow employees, but I had to visit 2 Broadway last week on a business matter (2 Broadway is an NYCTA location, housing Capital Program Management among other departments). I was asked for TWO forms of picture ID, even though my name was on a list of those to be expected. That's more ID than you need to get on an airplane!
Thats cuz u didn't have th 'U' photo ID. Lucky U....they didn't make you cough up a current birth certificate. I have a NYS drivers license, NYPD licenses, FCC licenses, have no foreign accent and don't look like Bin Loden. Did you open your lunch bag?? Peter
NYCTA bought lunch. I wonder if they X-Ray'ed the turkey club?
'Oh please let me see into your bag because we must check. Eets Ok thankyouverymuich.' Peter
>>> they didn't make you cough up a current birth certificate. <<<
How does one get a "current" birth certificate. My present birth certificate is over sixty years old, and I might have fewer aches and pains with a newer one. :-)
Tom
I had one of those old 'photo copies' and couldn't find it. You're drivers license required the birth certificate...the license is legal identification but TA wants the BI. So, down to the Board of Health, filled out a form and stood on line. The form, my drivers license, fifteen bucks and in two minutes, a new birth certificate printed on bank note paper. Doesn't look any different than an auto title. Peter
eBay Items #s 1031775340 and 1031776711. Auction closes Sunday, November 18 about 4pm. These are real gems!
This is just one qustion for your opinion.
If you could re-build any old elevated line ever built in New York, what would it be?
Second Avenue, hands down. Third was a bit too close to the Lex. I'm sure if BOTH could be made available, that'd be subtalk nirvana. :)
Second Ave. also had far more flexability -- not only could trains on it go to the Bronx, but it also had the line across the Queensboro bridge for direct access to Corona and Astoria, and did the little dog-leg at 23rd St. for the run down First Ave. and Allen St., which better served the currently under-served Alphabet City area, plus the pre-F train Lower East Side. But when it was time to decide which line would go first, much of the east side east of Lexington, especailly below 50th St., was not considered a desireable place to live, so the Second Ave. line got the axe first.
Yepper ... that was why the 2nd made more sense given that the usual passions are with the 3rd since everybody's heard of that one. Wonder what would happen to the QB bridge now after all these years with hippos waddling across? :)
Wonder what would happen to the QB bridge now after all these years with hippos waddling across?
The QB has been doing an architectural striptease since before it was completed. The object has been to reduce its dead and live loads in an effort to keep the structure from falling into the East River.
The bridge was designed for 4 elevated tracks (and 4 trolley tracks). Only 2 elevated tracks were ever installed. There were space and weight limitations placed on the el and trolleys to reduce live loads.
Normal traffic was limited to wooden gate cars to reduce live loads. Despite these precautions, the 1928 relocation of the el tracks created a longitudinal load imbalance on the bridge. This resulted in a 4% deflection of the north side of the bridge in the 14 short years that the el ran there.
The most recent example of load shedding occurred during the 1980's reconstruction. The live load was reduced by eliminating 1 traffic lane from the lower level; the dead load was reduced by removing the upper level pedestrian path from the south side. In addition, only one of the two lower level cantilevered outer lanes can be used for automobile traffic at any time.
The QB's load carrying problems have been known a long time. It was one of the reasons that the Port Authority's original Air Train plan was a non-starter because it planned to use the QB to get into Manhattan.
The QB's load carrying problems have been known a long time. It was one of the reasons that the Port Authority's original Air Train plan was a non-starter because it planned to use the QB to get into Manhattan.
I thought I read that the city was actually adding more bracing to the bridge in the last refit (6-8 years ago now?) in order to make the AirTrain-over-QB-Bridge possible ????
I thought I read that the city was actually adding more bracing to the bridge in the last refit (6-8 years ago now?) in order to make the AirTrain-over-QB-Bridge possible
The two outer lower level cantilevered lanes were replaced. They would have fallen into the river without replacement.
The QB's problems are far more serious than the strength of the cantilevered outer roadways. The major problem is that it cannot support any more weight. The only thing that has saved the bridge is that the eyebars that support the bridge were made of nickel-steel an early form of stainless. Had these crucial structural members been made of the same steel as the rest of the bridge and had they rusted at the same rate, the bridge would have fallen down decades ago.
Is there any plans to reconstruct or replace the Queensboro Bridge?If there is I hope they make an exit for Roosevelt Island.
If there were such a word as 'delapidating', it would probably mean the removal of dilapidated gemstones, or in this case, maybe the falling apart of the stonework. (Sorry, couldn't resist it).
But yes, replacing the QB Bridge would be an interesting project, especially if they gave us four or six subway tracks on it (I can hear NIMBY from the Sutton Place crowd).
[especially if they gave us four or six subway tracks on it]
What's the point of those tracks? Where would they connect?
Arti
[especially if they gave us four or six subway tracks on it]
What's the point of those tracks? Where would they connect?
Six additional tracks coming from Queens to 59th St? Where would they go? Presumably you mean in Manhattan.
As a quick and easy answer, a long droop-snoot el along the FDR, feeding into cross town lines. I imagine there are persons here who could be quite creative, and give other solution.
And the usefulness of such line would be...?
How would you feed into xtown lines?
What would you do on the Queens side?
Arti
How would you feed into xtown lines?
What would you do on the Queens side?
You doubt the usefulness of **SIX** additional tracks from Queens?
I already mentioned a quick and dirty solution on the Manhattan side (an el on the FDR, feeding into crosstown subway lines). Something into 2nd Ave is also possible.
In Queens, from the Sunnyside yards, easy: a line into Northern Blvd, out to Shea Stadium and thence south along the Van Wyck into the Hillside Av stretch of the IND (this would genuinely relieve the Flushing line). A second superexpress line from Rego Park. The third could capture the r.o.w. of the old Rockway line, or alternately, that of the Montauk branch. There is no paucity of places to send six tracks, even eight tracks.
This of course is just off the top of my head. There are undoubtedly more creative solutions available.
send the 7 over the current bridgeand tie it into the downtown 6, and the S, run the <7> through the S tracks, the 11 can turn around at city hall, ThIS WILL SOLVE THE 7 PROBLEM OF FLEET TRANSFERS
What is the "11" train, the diamond 6? Or is this a new line actually being planned by the MTA?
There have been rumors that, when R-62A's show up on the 7, the diamond-7 (express) will be retermed the 11.
Frankly, I doubt it very highly.
"Is there any plans to reconstruct or replace the Queensboro Bridge"
Certainly not! Why would anyone want to encourage more traffic in Manhattan or Near-Queens. Let the bridge fall!
ET
But how would we know if the bridge fell down on it own or at the hand of some sort of evil supervillian? Can we afford to take that chance?
:)
No, but we can afford the Denver Broncos.
After the way they played against the Redskins on Sunday, you can have 'em. Mike Shanahan went on record as saying it was the worst offensive performance he'd ever seen on any team he'd been associated with.
I'm not much of a Broncos fan, anyway.
You know he really wanted to own the Dallas Cowboys.
(sarcastically) Ahhhh the Denver Broncos.
I think owning the Denver Broncos is a great thing.
Marge, you are an example of why women will never understand football.
Nice word!
uhm... didn't they just get done rebuilding all the roadways? how is the bridge 'delapidated'?
the likelihood of it or any other bridge being removed and replaced are extremely slim.
Unless people start flying planes into them.
2nd Ave in Manhatten connecting to 3rd in The Bronx
The 2nd avenue first, Although a subway would be the answer. No one want's an el on 2nd Avenue. Next would be the Myrtle Avenue. I think an el would still be the answer. Probably cheaper than a subway.
Much cheaper than a subway, however, a two track el on either 2nd or 3rd using the old Suburban row to reach the Bergen Av. cutoff and then the Dyre Av. line would take the 5 off the Lex, allowing real <6> express service at rush, and speed up the 2. The <6> would run to Brooklyn as the 5 now does The only question would be the southern terminal. The city probably wouldn't go for Park Row at City Hall, and the folks at South St. Seaport wouldn't like a new snake at Coenties Slip, making South Ferry difficult. Chatham Sq. would be a mess with modern traffic. A good connection with the subways to Brooklyn would be vital making the Canal St. or Fulton St. complexes good transfer points, though neither is ideal above the street. How about a jog left to West Fourth St. to connect with the IND followed by a run to West St. and then South Ferry, using a subway portal at Vesey St. to reach the underground terminal. There's a nice big vacant lot there which would be ideal for that use and the subway could handle another line providing direct east side service to SF. Stops would be
South Ferry (1)
Rector (1)
Cortland (1)(N)(R)(PATH)
Chambers & West
Canal (or equivalent) & West
West 4th at 9th Av.(Greenwich) with provision for a rebuilt 9th Av. line :)
West 4th at 6th Av. (A)(B)(C)(D)(E)(F)(V)
an east side stop to connect with the (6)
14th St.
33rd St.
42nd St.
60th St.
86th St.
125th St.
138th St. (6)
149th St.(2)
then all existing stops to Dyre Av.
Stops from Midtown through Harlem in Manhattan are spaced as express stops to keep local traffic on the (6) or buses. A 3rd Av line could add free transfer to (4)(6) at 14th, 42nd(7), 86th and 125th. A 2nd Av. line could forego the transfers, but could add a Sky Mall leading to the United Nations. Equipment would be IRT size cars, but full subway construction. Lattice structure could be used in places for nostalgia, but basic structure should be concrete as in Miami. At least one very visible station should get the full gingerbread treatment.
For the person who found Pinelawn too difficult to get to, here is a rough outline of Pinelawn Service
Weekdays from Mineola 8:51 AM then hourly 9:50 - 2:50 and 3:28 PM
Running time approximately 24 minutes.
Weekdays from Pinelawn (west) 9:39 AM and then hourly 10:34 AM - 3:34 PM
Running time approximately 23 minutes.
Weekends from Mineola 6:58 AM and then hourly 7:49 AM - 4:49 PM
Running time approximately 26 minutes.
Weekends from Pinelawn (west) 8:09 AM and then hourly 9:04 AM - 5:04 PM
Running time approximately 25 minutes.
Let it be known, I bought a cemetary plot at Pinelawn within a stones throw of the LIRR tracks. Even in death, I'll have a railroad nearby!
did you know:
the mayor that took controls of the first NYC subway, McClelland, was the son of civil war general, George B. McClelland
I believe Stan Fischler takes notice of this in his book The Subway.
Anybody know what's going on with R110A trains?
Arti
They are hiding in Pitkin Yard Currently. With them fixing up the R-110B, I have good faith that they will do the same with the R-110A (let's hope)!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
What happened to the 110A & 110B?
The R110A had some serious brake issues from what I understand. As for the R-110B it was used in (C) service for a while as a 6-car train because of damage to the other 3 cars. Those 3 cars have been repaired and will be returning to service. I heard either the (A) or (C) lines for its return.
For about a week or two now, the R-110B has been making appearances on the 8th Avenue line, my guess is that it's making Simulated runs before returning to service as a 9-car train.
The R-110As fate is yet unknown.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The R110B will not be returning to service in the present configuration. The NYCT Office of System Safety has decided that the conductor position of 6x3 is unsafe, a conductor is not required to be responsible for more than 300' feet on either side of him. The train will have to run as a 6 car train with 3 spares or run elsewhere as 3/3 car trains.
"The train will have to run as a 6 car train with 3 spares or run elsewhere as 3/3 car trains."
I 6-car train sounds more likely, because a three-car train will just not do it, unless the MTA plans to have an overflow train directly behind it. -Nick
Remind me, how long are the Franklin Avenue shuttle platforms? In particular, will a 201-foot train fit? A three-car train would probably suffice on the Grand Street shuttle, too.
I suppose a 3-car train would work on the shuttles, but thats about it...unless they plan to run it overnight. -Nick
How about the Rockaway Park Shuttle????????????
Many many times when that train was in service on the A to Far Rockaway, all of a sudden it just shut down, apparently due to not enough "juice" from the third rail coming in. Unlike the rest of the system which gets its third rail power from the NYS Power Authority, power for the Rockaway line is supplied by KeySpan (formerly LILCO). I really don't think the TA has much confidence in those cars on the Rockaway line, but like everything else, those who would like to see the cars on the Rock Park shuttle may want to write a letter to Joe Hoffman and ask him what he has to say.
Only other option, D Line or give the C Line a 9 car train. Or very far fetched, let it run in Brooklyn on the Brighton Line from Brighton Beach to West 8 Street as a shuttle. Then again, they can continue to add "R110B-R110B-R110B" signs throughout the system.
I meant it as a shuttle after Coney Island is being rebuilt
Could it be possible for a search be made through out the land, to find a genius to extract one "B-unit" from a three car set. Then have this same genuis insert this "B-unit" in a three car set. Then this same genuis would connect the two lonely "A-units.
We would now have :
1) An Original three car set "A""B""A". @ 201ft.
2) A new two car set "A""A" @ 134ft.
3) a new four car set "A"B""B""A" @ 268ft.
If this same genuis then re-connected the set in this magical order he would have:
"A""B""A"+"A""A"+"A""B""B""A" or 201ft+134ft+268ft.
A petition would be put before the Grand Pooh Bah, heypaul to allow a dispensation for this, and only this 335ft length C/R station to roam the land in the service of the peasantry.
All honour to the Grey Dog Jocky
avid
I was just thinking of a similar solution of a 5/4 (or as you put it, a 3/2/4) configuration.
How come there are 3 crew on the R110B when they run on the C as 6 car trains? Would that suffice if the R110B ran 9 cars again?
After the events of 7-24(If you don't remember that was the bridge flip)and 9-11 we should know there are a few new abandoned tracks and Tunnels.Most of these are temporary so there should be a dat next to the stations.From North to South:
7 Avenue express tracks 2002 or 2003
6 Avenue express tracks 2004 but Don't hold your breath
Manhattha bridge North Tracks 2004 but like I said don't hold your breath
Cortland Street(N,R)IIRC:2003
South Ferry,Rector Street and Cortland Street(1,9)2003
You can obviously see the MTA didn't plan to have all this unused trackage and stations.You can also see most of these are the results of the terrorist attack.
Corrections/amplifications:
1. None of the areas cited are "abandoned." They are simply not in use for varying reasons. There is every intention that they will be put back into use over the next few years (with the possible exception of the Seventh Avenue Line between Chambers Street and South Ferry -- thought is being given to moving the line over a few blocks to the west, as has been discussed here).
2. The Seventh Avenue Line's express tracks are only out of use between 14th Street and Chambers Street (technically, the northbound express track is in service for trains going back north after terminating southbound at Chambers Street, though the trains are not carrying passengers).
3. There is no 'Cortlandt Street tunnel' on either the Seventh Avenue Line or the Broadway Line. The Broadway Line's Cortlandt Street station (N/R) is not in use at this time, but trains are running through it without stopping.
David
The Seventh Avenue Line's express tracks are only out of use between 14th Street and Chambers Street (technically, the northbound express track is in service for trains going back north after terminating southbound at Chambers Street, though the trains are not carrying passengers).
While it's not on the schedule, as a practical matter many 2's run express north of Chambers. I suppose that happens when they're running too far behind schedule.
...thereby setting anyone waiting at a local stop for that 2 or trying to get to a local stop from that 2 even farther behind schedule. Nice going.
What would it take for the West Side IRT to get a realistic schedule -- you know, one that has a fighting chance of allowing scheduled locals to run local and scheduled expresses to run express?
None of these are abandoned, with the possible exception of the former 1/9 below Chambers.
The 7th Avenue express tracks are in use north of 14th Street by every 3 train. Given the way the line tends to operate, I'm sure it's not uncommon for an occasional 1 or 2 to drift onto the express tracks between 14th and Chambers. They're also used for GO's -- there's one planned for next weekend.
The 6th Avenue express tracks aren't in daily use but they are occasionally used for GO's and other reroutes. I was on a D train two weeks ago that ran express from W4 to 34th.
The north side bridge tracks are temporarily out of service due to NYCDOT work. I don't know if the tracks themselves are even there.
The tracks through Cortlandt Street (N/R) are in service. Trains simply don't stop there. Trains will resume stopping as soon as there's a place for exiting passengers to go -- right now the exit is inside the restricted zone. I wouldn't be surprised if trains do occasionally stop there to drop off cleanup workers.
For all intents and purposes, the IRT tracks do not exist through Cortlandt. South of Cortlandt the tracks are disconnected from the rest of the line. I highly doubt service will resume in that area as early as 2003.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Sea Beach tracks between 86th Street and Stillwell. They're not abandoned, either, but given your reasoning you might think they were. And what about all the express tracks that aren't in regular use?
I do not think that the TA will discontinue service between Chambers Street and South Ferry nor will they reroute the line as that will be too expensive. Since the only damage is in the vicinty of the World Trade Center the line will be rebuilt once the rubble from the attack is removed and the city and state begins to rebuild the area.
And yes the World Trade Center complex should be rebuilt to show these cowards who destroyed it that we are strong. I doubt that we will ever have the twin towers again but we will have some office development on the site and we will need the now closed line back.
Thank You
Unfortunately, we will probably not have very tall buildings there agian, but they may rebuild a buch of smaller ones. I wish we could put the "tallest" building in the world there, but I'm afraid no one will want to work there. And to ste back to topic...I do believe they will just repair the part of the 1/9 line that caved in. It is needed. But I don't see it for a very long time, and relocating it is like trying to get the 2nd Ave subway built.
the north side manny b tracks + approach tracks are all there. they've got wood barracades with red reflector lights across the tracks at either end though.
That trackage you posted is incorrectly described as "abandoned". Temporarily out of service is more like it. Abandoned means forever.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe the Rockaway Branch of the LIRR was never officially abandoned (why the tracks are still in place) but look at that! "Temporarily out of service"
Maybe the tracks are still there. But they can't run a train thru there when there are trees between the rails. Best place to see the trees is just south of Whitepot.
I know. I said that as a joke because I heard somewhere that the Rockaway branch was never "formally" abandoned. But all anyone has to do is look at it and see that IT IS.
I heard that the planning for the 2nd Ave full subway has begun in the new MTA Capital Program. (see if it works this time). Anyway, origionally the 2nd Ave Subway was to connect with the Pelham line and I believe also the White Plains and Dyre lines. (The IRT elevateds were to be converted for BMT/IND sized cars) Is that still the case with the "new" version of the 2nd Avenue plan?
I doubt it
If they convert the IRT elevateds to support BMT/IND, then can IRTs still run there? I think it'd be better off putting the 2nd Ave to some other area...
I don't think it's a matter of weight, all that needs to be done is shear the station platforms off to allow for the larger BMT/IND sized trains. And no I don't think the IRT trains could use it any longer because otherwise each station would then need platform extenders. (How did they handle that on the Astoria line when that was IRT/BMT service?) Remember this was the plan from the 70's. I don't know where they are planning to send the 2nd Ave now.
As of right now the Second Ave. service is only supposed to run to 125th St. and Lexington Ave., though there is a provision in the future for the line to take over Pelham Bay Park operations and cut the Ni. 6 train back to the 125th St. terminal. Given that the Second Ave. stubway plan is less convienent than the current straight downtown route of the No. 6 -- with a dogleg east to Second Ave. and then back west again at 63rd St. -- I doubt the second part of the plan will ever happen (and I'm not so sure about the first part, either).
As for the dual IRT/BMT service, it was dual in name only. The BMT subway cars never went past Queensboro Plaza; either IRT cars or the narrower BMT elevated cars handed the stations on 31st St. to Astoria. When than line was finally connected to the rest of the BMT system, the platforms were shaved back to handle the wider cars.
If they built the 125th Street station under 2nd Avenue and extended the subway directly north under the Harlem River, it could intercept the 6 line just west of the 3rd Avenue station. Then then there would be a straight shot down 2nd Avenue and the new line would be more convenient for Pelham riders. And there would be the added bonus of the express run down Broadway.
I think that would make more sense as well, because to do it the other way will guarentee people will transfer at 125th to the 4/5 to avoid the unnecessary three-mile jughandle down Second Ave. from 125th to 63rd.
However, if I had my choice, I would run the new tunnel past the No 6 train at 138th and Third Ave. (with a transfer there), continue it past 149th (transfer to the 2/5) and then borrow some of the Metro North ROW above 155th and run it as and express service through the central Bronx, coming close to paralelling the old Third Ave. el. I would put stops at 161st., Tremont and Fordham Road and then ramp up the line before Gun Hill Rd. and turn it over to the old lower level Third Ave. el station at White Plains Road. The 2 could then terminate on the upper level, while the Second Ave. line would recapture the el north of there and run to 241st St. giving those riders a lot quicker trip into Manhattan than they have now.
Of course, I'd also like to see a 125th St. crosstown in the future, but since I don't have the incoming mayor's money, I'll have to rely on the MTA to get those projects done (/sacrasm).
Smartest thing we could do when speculating about "wither second avenue" might be to determine the planned gauges and platform sizes. With B division and A division being different sizes, we might want to figure out what division they're planning to run on 2nd Avenue. From all I've seen with the tunnel connectors at 63rd, it would seem this is going to be a B diviion line. If so, you don't want R46's shaving the Pelham platforms. Perhaps we can bring back the CC and squirt it up the Concourse, then across to Pelham along the north borderline as a D train.
I think the Concourse Line was supposed to go to the east towards the Pelham line at one time. That is why it curves to the right near the terminal.
That's correct ... that's also the reason for the stubs behind 205th street used for relaying - they wanted to get that built because an apartment house went up on top of that spot.
R46s won't shave the platforms of the 6 line. The 6 line tunnels are built to B division clearances and the stations have platform extensions so A divsion cars can use them. Only the platforms would have to be shaved back and the Pelham line would have to be resignaled to allow the larger cars to run there.
That would, of necessity, end its functionality as an IRT line then. Platform gaps have been a bad thing for a long while, necessitating that a line be either A or B division, but not both. Should be interesting to see what decisions get made (if any). :)
The current plan is to have the 2d Ave. line terminate at 125th and Lexington. The terminus would face north, allowing for future extensions to the Bronx, but those are not in the current plan.
"I heard that the planning for the 2nd Ave full subway has begun..."
Folks,
Please, there's no mystery as to what is currently being proposed. Check out the MTA's full-length Second Avenue Subway planning study on their web site.
MATT-2AV
Thanks, I didn't even think of looking at the MTA website!
You're very welcome. The planning studies contain much valuable information as to the current thinking of the MTA. However, they present no guarantee as to what (if anything) will ever be constructed.
I believe some of the previous versions contained additional data on ridership and rejected alignment/transit options. I recall that one previous study explained in depth the reasoning why surface light rail, dedicated bus lanes, or doing nothing would be precluded from further consideration, hence bringing us to the later study we now have. The study posted on their web site is actually a modification of the proposed alternative based on public feedback.
I appreciate that you are planning on going to their site and reading the study,
MATT-2AV
>>> there's no mystery as to what is currently being proposed. <<<
The continuing speculation and skepticism comes from seeing 40 years of plans. It has come to the stage where one cannot be sure what it will look like until there is a turnstile to swipe a card to actually enter the 2nd Avenue subway.
Tom
Yes, but there's a huge difference between proposal and building.
A series of proposals lead to what, if anything, is ever constructed. The proposal is simply a snapshot of what the MTA was thinking at a certain point in time, jokes aside. The proposals may lead to design, which may lead to construction. However, you don't get construction without proposals.
Some ask where the MTA is headed with the Second Avenue Subway, and I tell them that the best place to find that out is on their web site.
MATT-2AV
I strongly believe that rather than connecting to an existing IRT Line, a brand-new extension should be constructed in the Bronx.
- Lyle Goldman
I'm fairly new here at subtalk, and am enjoying it. I was just curious as to how when some of you are responding to a specific line in a post, you can get it to come up in your response in italics, and then answer. Thanks in advance.
You cut and paste it into your message and add HTML codes for italics.
add HTML codes for italics.
Which is started by typing an open-caret, the letters EM, a close-caret ... and then ended by doing the same with a slash before the EM.
I use an I, I never even heard of EM.
I use an I, I never even heard of EM.
One of them is from original HTML 1.0 and the other is from a later version, can't remember which is which. What do you use for bold?
What do you use for bold?
b
Keep in mind that the two tags have different semantics.
I is purely presentational and indicates (or suggests) that the enclosed text should be italicized; EM indicates emphasis. Most browsers, by default, display the two identically (assuming the user hasn't changed his settings and the author isn't using style sheets). Aural browsers probably don't, and some of the search engines might skew the results based on emphasis (but not merely italics).
Quoted text, if anything, should be deemphasized, so I is more appropriate.
While on the topic, what about color?
It looks like this: <i>the message you have copied</i>. It also works using "em" instead of "i".</plaintext>
Hi folks
Nothing much happening today except to take in the tourist traps - the sun refuses to shine in this city, which is hell on the picture-taking, but all things aside, I got out to Parlaiment, Westminster, Buckingham Palace, etc. today - a long walk from Embankment to Victoria, did me a world of good, didn't take the bus or tube either - after that it was off to the Jubilee Line, up to St.John's Wood, got off there and went to see Abbey Road, where the Beatles crossed the street and EMI studios whose front wall is covered in Beatles' fan graffitti (I did not add anything, but I did stop to read). After looking round and taking some pictures I walked over to Maida Vale (very nice, quaint LU station here) and rode out to Harrow and Wealdstone on the Bakerloo then back to Paddington. I think this evening's journey (I take one each night) will take me out to Wimbledon or perhaps up to High Barnet to finish all the Underground stops. I probably won't get to finish the entire system, but will settle for 90% of it, including 100% of the centre city stations.
Great place, London.
MIND THE GAP!
wayne
Well, that post rates a 10 on the Zman jealous-o-meter. I could really go for one of those Chicken Mayonnaise or Ploughman's Lunch sandwiches for 1.49, or a ride on one of the old former British Rail trains to the country, or a plate of Steak & Kidney Pie, or Bargain Hunt on BBC 2. It's been 7 months since my last visit, seems like 70. God I miss that place.
I started by taking R142A 7511 (6th car) on the 6 to Grand Central, R36 WF 9675 to Times Square, and R32 3694 on the E to Penn Station. The purpose is explained in my Amtrak post.
I then took an R44 on the A to 14th to catch the L. I got R42 4917 and I took it to Union Square. A funny thing that happened on that train was that the C/R closed up but the T/O wasn't on the train! I went upstairs and took R68A 5088 to Canal, which was sitting in the station when I got there. It was signed for Kings Highway, but a fair amount of the signs said Brooklyn on one side. I waited at Canal for an R32, which only took 15 minutes. I took that to Rector, and photographed Courtlandt from the railfan window.
I got off at Rector and attempted to walk north on Trinity, but was stopped by NYSE security. I turned around, went back to Rector, and walked down what was left of the sidewalk, a 3 foot wide walkway next to the under construction roadway. I turned north on Greenwich and went as far as I could go. People were taking photos, and were blocking the (few) trucks trying to get in and out. They set up a police line so we couldn't stand in the middle of the street to look at the remains of the buildings. I saw the boarded up enterance to the Rector 1/9 station. Someone had spray painted "G-d Bless the USA" or something like that one one side.
I walked another block west on Rector and turned up Washington. This seemed to be the best place for photographing. Most people just came up, took one or two photos, and left. Some people had disposables, others seemed to be more like pros at taking pictures, some had video cameras. It seemed the pros were taking more photos, or at least they were lingering longer to set up their shots. It was quite shocking to see the facade of the building, sagging, and nothing else.
I went one block further on Rector, but there wasn't too much to see there. I then went back up Rector to Broadway, north on Broadway, and then west again on the north side. I can not say exactly what route I took, but I wound up at the Chambers Street A/C Station eventually. At one intersection, people were climbing up on walls to look over the fences but a military person on the other side asked us to get down.
I went back to the subway at Chambers and waited for an A or C to Brooklyn. Two trains pulled in at WTC on the E, it seems they are doing the crew change at that point. The first train to arrive was 4106, which was an R38 C train. I took that to Hoyt Street. We got up to about 40 in the Cranberry Tubes. At Hoyt, I waited 45 minutes for an R38 A train, which was led by 4105. I took this all the way to Far Rockaway. Very nice trip. I like Far Rockaway better than Rockaway Park. We got into the mid-40s on the flats. Nothing on the test track but there was some work equipment between Aqueduct Racetrack and JFK. At Mott Avenue, I boarded R44 5454, not wishing to wait for the R38 to turn around. At Rockaway Park, I saw a train of R32s, signed as a C, head east. I assume it went to the Rockaways, for I didn't see it when I got out to Lefferts.
On the R44 back towards Manhattan, I asked a T/O what the delay on the A was all about. She said some signal "blew" and everyone rushed off the train, thinking it was a bomb, explaining why it took about an hour to go from Mott to Lefferts. The conductor was normally a yard worker who did VR and somehow got requalified for the road, so he wound up CRing this week since no one was on vacation. He was quite annoyed at what went on that day. I took the train back to Broadway-Nassau. For some reason, we went very slowly from Kingston to Nostrand. I also saw an A on the local track.
At Broadway-Nassau, the platform was packed. There was very little room to get by on the Manhattan side and no room on the Brooklyn side. When an R32 C trian pulled in, it was at crush load. I got out of there before people started getting off that thing, but some people were not even going down the stairs to wait for their trains.
I headed for the 7th Avenue line. Most signs said 1 and 2, but some said 2 and 3 and one said 2 and 2! When I got down to the platform, a 1 train with Lenox cars was there. The next train that arrived was a 1 with VC cars, and the one after that was an R142 2 train, number 6511. Its front LED was off, as were the announcements. Its interior display said Fulton was next, this was rectified at Park, where it announced the next stop was Chambers. The LED was still off when I got off (front and back).
This was my first R142 ride. I have been on the R142A several times.
Observations:
Blank LEDs are just as good as not having an LED.
Announcements were very delayed. At Times Square, after the doors were open for quite some time it finally said
F: This is a Bronx
M: Stand clear...
They need to make it say 34 ST-PENN STA, not 34 ST-PENN ST. We are NOT in Philadelphia.
Woman announces transfers when its only to the 1/9?
Conductor manually announced transfers at stations where it was changed, but the automated announcements would come back anyway.
CR: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is Times Square-42nd Street. Transfer to the A, C, E, N, R, Q, 7 to Queens, 3 express, you can see it coming in across the platform, that's the 3 express, shuttle to Grand Central, and Port Authority Bus Terminal.
M: -Grand Central. Connection available to Port Authority Bus Terminal.
The female seemed to be different from the one on the 6.
The little red lights at each door are annoying. The yellow light is easier to see, which I like.
The door chime goes off when the doors are closing in other cars after the doors in our car close? Also, why call it the 2 express when we make every single stop?!?!?
Some little kid got on at around 59th, rudely dumped his bag behind me, and then kinda pushed his way to the "railfan window". He decided to use the handle of the cab door for support and it was unlocked. After the kid turned the latch and opened it twice, the T/O came over, locked the door, and stared us both down.
I like the whine of the brakes on the R142A!!! Reminds me of my Rohrs down here. I dislike the lack of artwork on the R142. Big white space doesn't look too good.
Anyway, I got off at 79th Street. Went upstairs and took the M79 (1004) across town, finishing off a fairly interesting trip.
In my opinion the TA should consider the following new construction.
1-Extend the #7 line from Times Square toJavits Center
2-Extend the L Line from 8th Ave to Javits Center via the old NYC freight line.
3-Build the 2nd Avenue Subway from the Bronx to Lower Manhattan.
4-Extend the Astoria Line to LaGuradia Airport.
5-Build a connection from the DeKalb Ave Station to the Rutgers Street Tunnel(F Line)
6-Build a 2nd level at Queens Plaza for the G Line to terminate.
7-Consider a tunnelfrom Whitehall Street to Staten Island with a stop at Governors Island.
Just my opinion
Thank You
6 - that's an interesting new idea i haven't heard before. it seriously should be done if they ever build a large station there (connecting the area subways, lirr, amtrak, njt, and metro north - one of many proposals for the slowly-but-surely redevelopment of LIC)
1. I think they were planning to send the 7 to Javits Center. Does anyone know if that is still on the books?
4. Sending the N line to LaGuardia was also talked about. Does anyone know if that is still on the books?
A tunnel to Staten Island would put some folks out of work,thats one of the reasons it hasn't been built.The other was,Staten Islanders didnt want it and the city didnt want to build it,period. The LGA line has too much opposition from the Astoria neigborhood to get off the ground as conceived[from the end of the N line at Ditmars blvd],21st street or Steinway st would serve better,in my opinion. The L will never go beyond 8th ave,there is no desire for it.The 2nd ave Bronx route will not be touched any time soon[your lifetime or mine],the main trunk line hasn't even been started yet,and wont be for a few years yet. DeKalb/Rugders makes sense,so it wont get built,and Queens Plaza?.....please.......
A bunch of great ideas.... none of which will happen
Well, they should do all of those. Maybe the 6 billion dollar mayor can chip in....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah, like open up one of his Swiss bank accounts.
You got some interesting ideas there. Now if only the MTA would be more enthusiastic about more subway construction, and if there was enough money to finance these proposed ideas. I've been working on a very comprehensive subway extension plan myself, and it would be nice to have some of proposals voiced by subtalkers to one day become a reality. Reading your list, I saw one thing my proposals and yours have in common: a connection between the Rutgers tunnel and Dekalb Ave. Station. I have that connection in my plan too, except I have trains coming from Jay St. to Hoyt-Schemerhorn before accessing a new connector tunnel leading to Dekald Ave. station.
Everyone has to walk along the walking path on the WillyB you get right next to the tracks getting you up close with the trains, I took a picture to show. Every subway fan should try, its one heck of a walk, but for subway fans, kick butt views or the trains, lower manhattan, and midtown manhattan.
It was kind of cool when the walkway was on the otherside also. You were even able to walk around those little "house" things also.
Definately better than the walk on the Brooklyn Bridge!
The fencing does take away some flavor. The old pedestrian walkway on the other side of the bridge had a better unobstructed view, especially on the Brooklyn side. The right telephoto lens would yield a dynamite shot. Taking into consideration the angle of the sun also helped too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Folks,
With all the talk of the "blue-stripe" on the subways, it made me think of the pictures of the R-46 in 1976, which celebrated the bicentennial with the red, white and blue band (w/stars). Now I realize it might be asking too much to put this band on every single car, but considering the recent events, it would be great to see a similar band on some trains again, like the R-46 or the R-68. Maybe put it on the two R-46 sets that stay on the "E" line, since they used to go to the WTC stop. -Nick
It sounds like a great idea. At the minimum, I'm glad they added a flag to alot of cars. But a select few would be nice to have a red, white, and blue band.
Who would I go to (on the MTA) to propose this idea? -Nick
I don't know. Anyone?
If any of you just happened to see channel 11 a few moments ago, there was a subway scene. This looked like it was definately filmed in the NYC subway. The car looked like a redbird at first, it had red doors and straps but looked wider than IRT specs. On the outside I think the doors were blue. When the train entered the station it was Sutphin blvd on the local track, the train looked like R32's signed up for the E. It was full of magic marker and grafitti, also what the heck was an E doing at Sutphin Blvd on the F? Perhaps this movie was so old that this was before Archer avenue opened up, and back then the E did run to 179st. Between that and the grafitti one would think the scene is definaely from the early 80s.
speaking of movie scenes, has anyone noticed that lately, when there's a subway scene in at tv show or movie that they never show the rollsigns or either cut away or shoot on such an angle that you can't see it? seems it's on any show that's not specifically about the subway, Is this some legal thing???
>>> when there's a subway scene in at tv show or movie that they never show the rollsigns ... Is this some legal thing??? <<<
Movie making in general is done by shooting individual scenes and editing it all together at the end. Frequently scenes are shot according to availability of a location or for the artistic background. Since in most cases the story revolves around the fictitious characters and not the places, there is an attempt to generalize the background as much as possible. In subways that includes obscuring the destinations on roll signs and station names if they are not an integral part of the plot. It makes the job of the continuity person much easier, but there is no legal reason why they cannot be shown.
Tom
Another factor involved is known as "stock footage" ... if you go to a location away from where you're normally shotting, you'll shoot a roll of trains coming and going, various scenes in hopes of selling or licensing footage NOT used in the production you shot for to others. The more generic you keep it, the more likely you can resell that same roll of film/tape to others.
In some instances, it seems not to matter what the signs say. For example, "The French Connection" or "Nighthawks". In some it's critical to the scene such as in "Pelham 1 2 3". In still others, there is a request that the signs be 'blanked'. In all instances I am familiar with, the request comes from the film company and the director. FOr example, when preparing the train for Jurassic Park II, we were told that the director did not want the electronic side signs in the R-46 illuminated.
Signs are not the only consideration. In one case all the fluorescent tubes were replaced with ones that had a rose tint. In another, we had to make all the seats green while in others, crews of artists have graffitied the trains. As long as they pay for the the work and the restoration, the NYCT is quite accommodating.
Interesting dichotomy here ... the TA has a policy not to cooperate with motion picture companies if "crime" is involved, and yet willingly provides a "grafitti'd" train on request as long as the bucks are there. Inconsistencies always amuse me. Don'tcha just love the way a salami can be sliced sometimes? Almost like an admission that car tagging isn't a crime. :)
Just bustin' ...
I hope i didn't use the term, "cooperate" in my posting. My intent was to use the term, "technical assistance". Filming movies in NYC is controlled through an office of the mayor. Hence, the TA, as a municipal agency, must cooperate. However, it would be understandable that the TA would not reveal how to disable the deadman's feature or prevent a tripcock from putting a train into emergency. Hence, as in Pelham 1 2 3, the directors make it look as they envision it. Anyone want to bleed the brakes on the money train?
Heh. You DID put it across properly in your original post, my own sloppiness in the poor phrasing of the playback. I was just trying to have a bit of fun there conceptually. What's amusing too is that even if you WERE to actually provide the Hollyweird types with an exact demonstration of how to accomplish complete cutout of all safeties, they'd go and do it in their own idiom anyway.
Now if we could only convince the folks who think that some trains have afterburner switches in the cabs otherwise. :)
>>> In all instances I am familiar with, the request comes from the film company and the director. ... Signs are not the only consideration. In one case all the fluorescent tubes were replaced with ones that had a rose tint. In another, we had to make all the seats green while in others, crews of artists have graffitied the trains. <<<
This is what I meant by "artistic background." There is much more concern about what it will look like on the screen than any sort of authenticity.
Tom
Actually that B train in Nighthawks is signed correctly, for the most part. Oh, I caught a "Kings Highway" side sign on one of the cars, plus an S on the end route curtain just before Stallone kicked out the storm door window, but those are minor details. I take it that window pane got replaced, assuming that was one of the museum cars.
Actually that B train in Nighthawks is signed correctly, for the most part. Oh, I caught a "Kings Highway" side sign on one of the cars, plus an S on the end route curtain just before Stallone kicked out the storm door window, but those are minor details. I take it that window pane got replaced, assuming that was one of the museum cars.
We all know the story behind those R-42s in The French Connection. BTW I picked up the DVD and there is no mention of it on the director's track.
No one seemed to pay any attention to train markings in The Warriors. Perhaps it was intentional, given the main plot.
The movie that you saw was "Coming to America" starring Eddie Murphy & the trains used in that scene were R38s not R32s signed "E" & the station that was used was actually Hoyt Schmerhorn Streets which was in diguise. The interior doors were not red it was orange. They still had the straps. And fully of graffiti. And this movie was release in 1988, months before the opening of the Archer Avenue line.
The final scene had the train pulling out of 'Suphtin Blvd' (at least that's what the wall tiles read). However, a good eye would have noticed that the tiling was the 'old fashioned' IND type found at Hoyt-Schermerhorn St. and Euclid Ave. for example, and not the modern Suphtin Blvd. station.
BTW, that graffiti must've been authentic and not 'Hollywood'. I'd guess the film was MADE a year or two before release, so those particular cars had not yet gone through the GOH.
BMTman
The color band was the clincher, plus the real Sutphin Blvd. station is a four-track local stop with side platforms.
I knew something looked a little off in the "disguised" station that was Sutphin Blvd. Wow the grafitti was real bad I couldn't tell the R38 from the 32! I'm glad those days are over (hopefully for good!).
Read the FAQ on this website about MTA subways used in movies
I know in The Real World on MTV that they showed her entering the 14th St Station making sure you saw the (A,C,E,L) also while she was waiting for her train you could see the overhead sign that said 8th Ave Local.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I was in the SI ferry terminal on Sunday and saw an exhibit of the scheduled renovations of the terminal, which are supposed to start this fall. I haven't read a scrap of info about it before or after 9/11.
Is the project still green-lighted or have the recession and 9/11 scotched it?
The terminal is relatively unchanged since it was built in 1950 and still looks like your high school gym.
ww.forgotten-nyc.om
The St. George terminal does have that "Soviet architecture" look to it. It had to be ugly even by 1950 standards. At least the SIR platform lighting was upgraded a few years back.
I can't stand that disgusting St.George terminal. The sooner it's fixed up the better. Did I mention all the flying rats (pigoens)?
OK, there's a plan in place but does anyone know if it's actually going to get done?
He said, not believing a word.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I hope the "Flying Rats" stay on in the new terminal...
what is a Ferry terminal without Pigeons residing in it?
what is a Ferry terminal without Pigeons residing in it?
Clean!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No pigeons at the Washington State Ferry dock in Seattle (or Bremerton) for that matter.
But watch out for the seagulls. They are vicious!!! If you don't get crapped on at least once while waiting for a WSF, you haven't seen Seattle.
I agree, it did NOT have a very warm or inviting look. But consider, it was just your basic "transit terminal" -- there was not very easy access to the outside unless you arrived on the bus, the train or the ferry. Oh, you could walk in, but as I said, it wasn't very inviting. It was strictly utilitarian.
One thing that I will always remember from St. George....the SIRT ticket kiosk in the middle of the station entry, and the flashing neon side that said "Ride The Rapid". Anyone else remember that? It kinda looked like they were runnign an amusement park down there. And then you went out onto the train platform and got in those ancient MU cars that stunk of ozone, generations of brake dust, and old age. Well, maybe a museum, not an amusement park!!!
They are starting work on it. If you noticed all the shops that are in there have been closed...and the kiosk infront of Ramp D has been removed. The first phase of the project is that hallway area. It would look nice when it is done.
The project is, indeed, going forward. About a week ago, they closed down all the stores in the terminal (excepting Mickey D, the USPS, and the MetroCard center) so they could start tearing down unnecessary stuff. The remainder of the stores are scheduled to close down in the next few months. How the major work will be done remains to be seen.
It might be too soon to start planning it while memories are still fresh and ground zero is being cleared out. "Opportunity" may be too insensitive a word. But let me gently broach the subject by proposing:
--The South Ferry station was one of the more cramped and crowded in the system, given the throngs that use it for ferry excursions and commutation. Now's the time to expand the above-ground portion of the station or build a bigger one.
--Is there a way to build a transfer passenger tunnel from S. Ferry (IRT) to Whitehall (BMT)?
www.forgotten-ny.com
A Rector-Rector connection would make more sense. For one thing, both are full-length stations. For another, the stations are practically touching.
...or perhaps a connection at Cortlandt, since the demolition work has already been done there and both stations are still closed.
There was talk before 9/11 that when the new SI Ferry station is finally built at South Ferry, the subway connections to both the 1/9 and N/R stations would be built directly into the terminal. If both were to share the same fare control areas, there wouldn't be any major reason why they couldn't built a slightly wider tunnel, and keep the back (north) section of it inside the fare control area for a direct transfer between the two stations.
I wonder will they keep it as a loop station or will they rebuild it into a terminal? I hope they keep the loop, it is much quicker to "loop" the trains then to have them reverse and change crew.
Think about it from the T/O's perspective, he'd do one full round trip with a loop. No break until he gets back to VC.
Why can't crews drop back at South Ferry (or at Chambers northbound, as I believe was done before 9/11)?
Crew Did not drop back at South Ferry. They can in and went out right away.
Robert
But at Chambers northbound? I know there were starting lights there.
And even if it wasn't done before 9/11, couldn't it be done once the tunnel reopens?
There were no drop back crews at either South Ferry or Chambers St north. There are no crew facilities at either station. Should a crew report late to South Ferry/Chambers, the entire road would back up until someone took the train out.
Starting lights are at Chambers St north so that crews know when to leave - they are also at Brooklyn Bridge north local, and the holding lights are used in lieu of starting lights at Bowling Green north.
Where are there drop-backs? I assume there's at least one per line. Do many lines have drop-backs at both ends?
Drop-backs usually exist at terminals that are crew reporting locations. The only one I can think of that doesn't fit the pattern is B'way/Lafayette on the 6th Ave shuttle - a crew brings in the train and then takes out the next train to arrive, effectively stranding the crew at B/L with no supervision or crew room.
I read some project description of it and it said there would be enclosed connections to both the IRT and BMT, but there would be no free transfer between them.
Don't know if by "enclosed" they mean underground, or just a roof over a pedestrian walkway.
Actually, I think it would make a lot more sense to have the whole ferry terminal be INSIDE fare control, so you could go from SIRR - SI ferry - subway without going through turnstiles.
Then the ferry wouldn't be free for walk-ups, and anyone coming from the SIR would ride not only the SIR and the ferry but also the subway for free (since fares are currently collected on exit at St. George).
I do like the idea, though. If the turnstiles are retained at St. George for exiting passengers (as well as for passengers entering from the street but not from the ferry), that would take care of the free ride problem. The walk-up problem could be ignored, or an optional exit swipe at each ferry terminal would refund $1.50 to a MetroCard that was last used recently at the other ferry terminal. Transfers to the 4/5 at Bowling Green, the J/M/Z at Broad Street, and the 2/3 at Wall Street would be handled like bus transfers; transfers from the 4/5, the J/M/Z, and the 2/3 would need exit swipes to prevent abuse.
too complicated...sorta like the fare zone refund idea...
Cramped, yet attractive & unique.
The South Ferry station is supposed to be integrated into the new Whitehall ferry Terminal; the Whitehall station accessed by a dedicated pedestrian walkway (to avoid hordes of people running out into traffic). The plans for South Ferry station had included another staircase to help ease the congestion on the sole exit. At this point, RUMOR (voiced publicly by the 'mouth of Transit' - Al O'Leary) is to have the station straightened and reconfigured as a two-track terminal with the ability to feed into the Joralemon tube. How this is to be accomplished was not mentioned (or at least not printed in The Advance).
according to the track map, the mainline to the joralemon st tube is underneath the south ferry station...better yet, revive the innerloop, and have trains going back to VC on the outside, and have the trains to Brooklyn go through the inner loop, so you just build a connection from the inner loop...
If that's done, any idea where the 5 would turn?
Or why they would need 1/9 access to the Joralemon tube from SF, since the 2/3 meets the 1/9 at Chambers and then meets the 4/5 at Boro Hall.
If anything, they should see if its possible to move the outer loop switches for the 5 back about another 260 feet so that the South Ferry platform can be extended to handle 10-car trains.
The flexibility could come in handy at times, for reroutes if nothing else. If the connection is used in regular service, it would yield awkward service patterns: locals in Manhattan would become expresses in Brooklyn while expresses in Manhattan would become locals in Brooklyn.
I don't know where this rumor (of switches being in the way of an extended platform) began, but it's false. The 10-car marker for the switch comes before the existing platform. That means that a full ten-car platform would fit between the existing platform and the switch. That's twice as much space as we need.
The big question in that area is if there is enough room underground?
Remember that in addition to the 1/9,4/5 & N/R subways there are two highway tunnels (Battery Park and Brooklyn Battery) along with the usual utilities and so forth. If Whitehall has a mezzanine, a pedestrian connection between there and SF should be doable, but as someone else mentioned, reaching the ferry terminal requires an above ground passage since the Battery Park Tunnel forms a wall between the ferry terminal and the subways below ground. Loss of the inner loop woukd force the 5 to Brooklyn full time, (or make it terminate at City Hall) so any option which eliminates the loops is not very good for service flexibility. A stub end terminal for the 1/9 would have to be north of the existing station to allow 5 train access to the loops, and by doing that would prohibit access fron the loops to the 1/9 northbound as a diversion. It would also make it even further from the ferry terminal, eliminating the one good feature of the loop station.
Does the West St./South St. connection tunnel run between the two lines? From the angle the tunnel takes after going underground just before Whitehall, I always thought it ran between the 1/9 SF platform and the Bay, since the tunnel has no sudden sharp turn to the north that it would have to make in order to point up State Street.
If that's the case, running pedestrian tunnels from the 1/9 and the N/R to a new SI Ferry terminal wouldn't be a problem, and as I said, a wide enough tunnel could allow the back (north) wall to be kept within the fare control zone, allowing transfers between the two lines.
Simplified (and cheaper) non-rush maintenance. Flexibility with emergencies or prolonged blocks.
A similar connection to the East Side from the Clark tube is theoretically doable, at the cost of ripping up everything in front and to the side of City Hall.
As fas a I can see, it only really helps you if there's a problem with the 2/3 line between Park Place and Borough Hall. While there are times when problems with the Clark tube do happen, I doubt they're frequent enough to justify the major rebuilding job the conversion at SF would require, including the flying junctions to hook up the 1/9 with the Joralemon St. tube.
Even more of a problem would be the case of the No. 5 train and the inner loop. Converting SF into a standard terminal station would require at least a two-block long platform to handle the 10-car trains. Since the distance between SF and Bowling Green is about 3 1/2 blocks, once the train leaves the new SF station it would have only 1 1/2 blocks for the crossover between tracks and then have the uptown track cross above the Joralemon tube tracks via a flying junction before merging with the uptown track before the Bowling Green station begins.
It might be possible, but it would be a very, very tight squeeze. And if you make more space for the crossover and flying junction by making the SF platform less than 10-cars long, what's the point of doing it in the first place?
A nice idea (if expensive) would be to make South Ferry a through station with the 1/9 becoming the 5 and vice versa. This of course would require moving the 1/9 tunnels further west across Battery Park, before swinging round a sharp curve to a long East-West platform with a sharp curve at the other end to Bowling Green. A switch West of the station could turn it into a Terminal for when the 5 is running to Brooklyn or alternatively East of the station to use the former shuttle platform at Bowling Green (yes, I know, it's dilapidated). However, this is all total dreams as no-one would ever fund it.
I don't see the point in having all three West Side lines but only one East Side line run to Brooklyn.
The shuttle platform is only two car lengths long. A typical A Division train has ten cars.
I just don't see the point. It would also lead to the awkward situation at Borough Hall and Atlantic Avenue where boarding passengers bound for the West Side would have to "pick sides" or be prepared to run from one platform to the other.
When will it open? It was supposed to be this month...
Dave and all, A possible addition to the Faq
A careful reading of the IRT 'playbook' describes the layout of public restrooms built in all but the City Hall Stations. Recent discussion of Bleecker Street has raised the issue of various crossunders at IRT stations which have been sealed up over the years. In turn, questions regularly arise as to the no longer public mezzanine walkways between 34th and 42nd under Sixth Ave and the Sixth to Seventh walkway connecting Herald Square to Penn.
Perhaps a full blown inventory of these lost enhancements is in order.
I remember the crossunder at Astor Place from the late sixties when I lived on East Seventh St. It was awash in piss regularly, but as the downtown fare control was gated off late nights it was the only way out coming from uptown. My recollection of crossunders at 23rd? 28th? is hazier. I do have a clear memory of actually finding a bathroom open for use somewhere out on the Queens Boulevard line once in maybe 67 or so.
I am well aware of the 'societal/criminal logic behind closing the bathrooms, sealing off the walkways etc, but remain saddened by our collective loss of amenities.
New York is not the only place where the thoughtfulness of the architects has been overwhelmed by the barbarians. Philadelphia had a far more extensive mezzanne underground walkway system in Center City as well more efficient connections from the 30th Street long distance platforms directly to the MFEL/Subway Surface Station.
The unfortunate part of such closings is that they aren't undone, even when the reasons for closing them have ameliorated -- the crime, vandalism, etc. are greatly reduced, there was (until recently) more money to maintain them and patrol them, but they still remain closed.
A crossunder is a convenience, but I'll take a full-time entrance to each platform over only one full-time entrance, requiring crossunder use to reach the other one.
There are public restrooms in many stations. We had a thread on this topic a while ago. I'm afraid none are spotless, but at times I don't really care.
I for one wish there was more public restrooms in NYC. Major subway stations should have them as well as other NYC "downtowns".In order to keep them safe and clean, survailance and regular cleaning would be used. In certain areas of the city, like Chinatown, finding a bathroom is impossible (for restaruant customers only)so one has to wait 10 minute in line at the Chatham square library to use the one restroom there.
And in Flushing, it is equally as hard. The Sheraton hotel mall has a nice, clean facility but they snobbishly have it locked up now. I should get around to filing a complaint with management. In Flushing there's only Macy's and McDonald's (where you can wait another 10 minutes in line). Of course there's gonna be public urination if there aren't enough restrooms. It's even crossed my mind sometimes (to urinate not in a restroom). I feel bad for anyone with a bladder problem trying to visit the aformentioned neighborhoods. Better stick to Midtown or the malls for those unlucky enough to have bladder problems.
Maybe with all the time you spend in both Chinatowns you could try eating in the restaurants there instead of looking for a Wendy's. Once you become known as a customer the rest rooms will no longer be off limits even if you're not eating there at the time.
Well, a subway restroom could probably never be spotless, but my fear is that the "general public" would maje them totally horrible faster than any reasonably staffed cleaning crew could keep up...
Subway restrooms would have to have attendants, which basically means pay toilets. Since pay toilets are politically unacceptable, there are no toilets.
Doesn't the TA have a program where petty criminals do at least some of their community service working for the TA?
Maybe they could assign some of them to clean and/or otherwise maintain the restrooms during the daytime.
Just a thought...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
As I said, there are public restrooms in the subway. Without exception, they are best avoided. Unfortunately, sometimes they're unavoidable.
As I said. To keep them useable, they have to be attended, and probably have video cameras watching at least entrances.
An idea I've long had is for the city to let developers go up a few floors more if they agree *in perpetuity* to staff public restrooms, keeping them perpetually immaculate, and free of troublesome people. Such a facility needn't be on the building's premises, but someplace where it's needed.
There are if you count the pillars at the end of stations...........
There was a sign on the wall at the Hoyt St. IRT in Brooklyn that said:
"For restrooms use stairway at end of platform"
Too many people took that sign literally!
Funny you should mention bathrooms...check out the newest page in....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Another reason it's hard to keep bathrooms open is because of the savages who turn them into land fills. Havey you ever seen the Coney Island Bathroom? I'd rather ride the two hours home having pooped my pants than take a chance sitting on one of those toilets. In the winter, when the ridership around there is lower, the restrooms aren't as bad. I refuse to understand, no matter how many doctors explain it, why certain people feel the need to defile public property.
Example: A person will throw an empty fast food container on the ground when there is a garbage can 3 feet away. Yet, that same person will ride 4 buses, two trains and take a cab to a party 150 miles away involving beer and weed. I simply cannot understand this need to destroy public property!
You said it redbird!How about some other examples?
Throw the garbage on the platform before the doors close so the car doesn't get dirty.
Leave the news paper your finished with on the bench so the next person can read it(next train that comes in spreads the paper in the wind =track fire)
Last but not least spit the sun flower seeds on the floor instead of the bag they gave you when you purchased them!
I dont think i have ever done a trip when these things didnt happened at least once.Oh well thats life in the city!
I wonder what designation the "MJ" train would have if it was running today. There are no double letter designations for routes....
Tony
I don't know. Could use a "taboo" letter like "P" I guess.
:-) Andrew
It would probably be called the "Diamond M" train today.
< M >
They probably would have cut it back to not run north of Broadway, since they wouldn't want to by platforms that would clear 10' wide cars, and would be desgnating it a brown S.
Imho yet another S would be getting a bit silly - you might as well call every line S at that rate. (Although I wouldn't put it past the MTA...) *
My favoured option would be to begin re-opening many of the old Els, giving them Greek letters to differentiate them from the two existing divisions of the Subway.
Yes, I know Els reduce land value, but, particularly in Downtown Manhattan, this needn't be seen as bad. The biggest two problems I see are:
(1) The state of the Queensboro Bridge *
(2) The way things fail to be funded *
But, returning to the topic, how about ĩ (mu) for the Myrtle?
* PS I am not meaning to say anything nasty about New York at all - in fact I love the place (its subway beats everyone else's!) and I sometimes feel like moving there!
>>> My favoured option would be to begin re-opening many of the old Els, <<<
Re-opening is not an option. The old els are gone and would have to be built all over. Building new els where the old ones were is politically impossible, and not necessarily where new rapid transit is most needed.
Tom
I know the infrastructure no longer exists :( but remember this is a hypothetical post about what would happen IF the Myrtle El between Park Row and Broadway were rebuilt!
Mind, with all those 2nd Av subway plans (ie sumthg is needed), has anyone considered re-building the 2nd or 3rd Av Els in Manhattan? An El usually costs between one-quarter and one-third of the price of a subway, so even with the style of funding which the current political climate allows, it should be more affordable. Pity even that is unlikely to be enough.
There is no way they will EVER allow an el back on an Avenue in Manhattan. If it was still there, maybe they would think of rebuilding it to stronger standards. But now that it's gone, unfortunatly, it will never be back.
Yeh, well everyone knows any real expansion in public transport is pretty much out of the question in the entire Western World because the government will neither pay for it nor enslave convicts to do the job. Good thing too in a democratic way, but it's a crying shame for the world's greatest cities.
However, this doesn't alter my opinion that New York could do with the 2nd Av El back, a complete rebuild on the Queensboro Bridge, a new El across Queens, and the former MJ re-opened. Just it won't ever happen, despite New York being the best place on Earth!
You would have a long grey beard like Santa Claus by the time they got around to building the thing. The Second Ave. subway was supposed to have been built when I was a baby, yet it is not, and I turn 50 in February! I guess when the Starship Enterprise is ready to be de-commissioned and sent to the scrapyard, they will finally get around to building it, but then how would it be used when the transporter beam has made rail transit obsolete?
The Starship Enterprise has been decommissioned many times.
Aren't they on the 6th one right now?
They'll be on the 600th, and still no Second Avenue Subway.
By that time they will have Scotty to beam you up 2nd Ave
A monorail el could do so very much for Manhattan...especially for right here in the heart...but will never happen in our lifetimes. Best reason for NOT: 'French Connection' (the motion picture.) Peter
Wouldn't that confuse every tourst and person who doesn't know greek?
(P.S. I know beginner greek, didn't pay much attention in high school to be able to speek it)
At least I'm not an Hebraist ;)
Probably Y
Speaking of the letter Y as a possibility for a train letter, do you think we'll ever actually see a Y train one day?
Y do you ask?
Honestly, your guess is as good as mine.
Y not?
If the lower Myrtle Avenue line stil existed (think about that cool access from Central Queens to MetroTech!!) I'd vote to designate it the O, the P, or the U.
I really don't see why "P" should be verbotten. There's an Avenue P in Brooklyn, a P Street in DC (with really cool streetcar tracks). If we are so silly that we can't use the letter P, couldn't we also have problems with the letter V? and others, come to think of it....
And what's the problem with the letter O? As soon as the letter was used, people would learn it. Also, as long as no IRT line was designanted zero, it wouldn't matter if people confused the O and 0.
There's also the letter U. Can't see any controversy there..
What about T, X, and Y?
I have no problems with those letters either, except there's a sizeable number of folks here attached to the idea of the T running where the W actaully does.
The West End Line carried the T designation from 1960-67.
Oh, I didn't realize there was a "T" train at one time.
I really don't see why "P" should be verbotten. There's an Avenue P in Brooklyn
If there was a P train can you imagine...
"How do I get to Coney Island?"
"Take a P against the wall."
P.S. I used to live on Avenue O in Brooklyn.
Do you know what's bad about living on Avenue O?
You have to walk a block to P.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
guess that will never be used as a train designation
Yeah, gotta be up there with the "Y express" ...
I was kind of looking forward for the full Second Avenue line being called the U.
I can see it now:
Second Avenue-Houston Street
Only if it opens within the next three weeks. After that you'll have to add a V.
Actually I would swap the C and V south of West 4th and send the C to the Eastern division.
I don't understabd why they don't use the 6th Avenue connection to the Eastern Division at Bowery. Especially now that the 6th Avenue Line has lost a lot of it's trains with the work on the Manhattan Bridge. It just seems like a good idea.
Thats because the TA didn't build a passageway that connect between Grand Station and Bowery Station. In that case if the TA did have already built one. The TA won't need the shuttle bus to shuttles passengers back and forth between Grand and Canal Street Station for Q M N R W 6 Service at the first place. Brooklyn riders could have use the M where they can transfer to Q N R at Dekalb and W and Pacific. Lastly, Bowery station will be taken over Grand Station's bussiness since its been dead for many years.
Grand Street station is only two blocks distance away from Bowery Station. And 6th Ave track is just above the station. I also think that it will be a excellent idea to have 6th Ave connection to the Eastern Division at Bowery.
now I can only give $1000 a month, where will I get $459,000?
The walking distance between Bowery Street Station and Grand Street Stations is only 5 minutes.
that is besides the point. I swear people won't use the transfer between 63st/lex and 59st (2 per day). People want to remain on subway property. Better yet run the N or M or B or D train through there. (raillink)
Thats the reasons why most riders avoid getting off the train and lose few min for another train.
"Timing is very important."
For very slow walkers. The stations are two short blocks apart.
I walked from Grand to Canal at a moderate pace on a reasonably busy Sunday afternoon. It took eight minutes. Few are bothering to transfer to get to the Bowery.
Thats' because the TA really does't like to throw switches. That is why no Brighton train goes via Tunnel, why the W bypasses Dekalb, and nothing from 8th Avenue goes to Houston, or 6th Avenue goes down Church.
The notable excpetion will be the V thru 53rd Street. That is to force feed passengers thru the 63rd Street tunnel so as not to jeopardize UMTA/FTA funding of it.
HA HA ha.....very funny....not.
You COULD route the C via the tracks at West 4th and perhaps bring back the K train ... collect the whole set.
I don't think it would matter one bit what letter designation it would be given. Everyone would still call it the Myrtle Av El!!
Forgive me if this question has been asked and answered, " Do all the traction motors in the trainset help to accelerate the train ? I know that some cars are strictly trailers and don`t have traction motors in their trucks, like cars designated as B units. "
First - let's clarify terms. All trailer cars have no traction motors but not all B cars are trailer cars. R-44 and R-46 B cars have traction motors. That being said, the second part of our question needs some clarification too. If you are talking about DC propulsion, the answer is yes. All four traction motors aid in accelleration. In fact, if there is a problem withone motor, since they are initially connected in series, one defective motor shuts down the propulsion system of that car. Now if you are speaking about AC propulsion - you are talking about a whole new thing. Recently a LIRR DE30AC was having problems making a grade. It was found that the on-board computer detected a problem with the "Hotel power" and disconnected one truck - leaving just 2 traction motors to pull the train - or not.
So do the traction motors go into parallel ,when the controller is set to the M.U. position ? Or does the transition happen in Switcing or when you are moving the handle out of Series?
Talking strictly about DC propulsion - neither is technically the case. Transition takes place between series and parallel position but it's not truly determined by the master controller handle position. In most cases, the operator will wrap the handle around into the multiple or parallel position. The group switch box will then notch through the various points of propulsion as dictated by the logic circuits. Transition may occur several (10 or more) seconds after 'multiple' is requested.
On the VERY old cars (pre-R contracts) if you wrapped it from a dead stop, you'd have to change fuses. :)
On the Hi-Vs, that is. The Gibbs cars had a heavy spring in the controller assembly, so although you could wrap the handle, the switch groups would not sequence immediately. This was explained in detail to me a while back.
I've heard from folks who actually ran those things that if you DID wrap it, you were in for a fuse pull party. The springs didn't keep you from doing something stupid so folks who motored the HiV's KNEW not to pull to hard ... you'd take the first notch, wait, take the second and wait until you had some speed before yanking her home. If you were too eager, you got to tie up the railroad and explain to the TMO why you shouldn't be brought back to the grease pit and shot. :)
I make no claims of knowledge here, but I'd be willing to bet that the fan trip with the D types where they blew the fuses was probably due to an eager yanker in the cab too ... you can pull a LOT of current if the motors are in parallel and not quite up to speed to DO it ... you should SEE the ammeters in a DC traction locomotive at run 8 under 5 MPH ... ludicrous amps ... mit spitzensparken und smoke.
>R-44 and R-46 B cars have traction motors.
That makes sense but in school car they always say that the B cars are 'just along for the ride'. Really becasue the B's are buried in the middle.
Now the A and B share compressors and converters, right? Does that mean the A/C and lights fails in two car sets on a 4 car unti? Or do they share power and air in 4 car sets?
For example, a 4 car R44 would look like this:
5262 (A), 5263 (B), 5261 (B), 5260 (A).
The converter and compressor on 5262 would feed 5263. The C & C on 5260 would feed 5261.
I'm quite sure that you've seen R44/46 cars with semi-dark cars due to a Bad Order Converter. If 5262 is semi-dark for this reason, then so would 5263. 5260/5261 would not be dependent on 5262 and thus would operate normally.
Isn't there more to it. On a barn move on a cold train with the bug the train will charge but takes forever because one car has to charge the whole train with air. So 5260 should help 5263 at least with air.
Now on the 46's the odd cars have compressors and the even the converter and they feed each other via the link bar. I guess the question is then do the 44/46's only share air and electricity via the number 2 ends? I assume the link bars is the same between AB and BB so if the B's car share on both ends they should be able to help each other on the wole 4 car unit.
"Now on the 46's the odd cars have compressors and the even the converter and they feed each other via the link bar."
Back to schoolcar, grasshopper. On the R-44/R-46 only the even cars have an air compressor or converter (both have AC Compressors). The link bar provides neither air nor electric to the B car. It is mearly a mechanical link between both cars. Electric is supplied via Greenfield cables that are suspended from the linkbar. Air is supplied via 3 air lines, Supply air, Brakepipe and straight air. They run through the linkbar but are not part of it.
While air is trainline throughout the train consist as is T/Line B+, there is a diode at the #1 end of each A & B car to prevent the lighting circuit from feeding more than 2 cars.
Yikes actually that IS what they taught in school car. In fact it was E in even for electricity and O in odd for O2 unless that is something else. Of course actually reading the book Vs. my notes says that I am 100 percent wrong.
Don't the link bars contain some sort of permanent portion to transmitt comands from unit to unit or am I thinking of it wrong. I am treating the link bar as a catch all for all the connections when the way to think of it is as a group of distinct components.
Now another question on the 44's if you are in 3rd power do you have to go to coast to power down to 2nd like on the SMEE or can you go straight to 2nd. That was another conflict between the books and school car.
>>>>>>>>>Yikes actually that IS what they taught in school car. In fact it was E in even for electricity and O in odd for O2 unless that is something else
Correct, but that's just for SMEE cars and not for 44/46's.
>>>>>>>>>>>Now another question on the 44's if you are in 3rd power do you have to go to coast to power down to 2nd like on the SMEE or can you go straight to 2nd. That was another conflict between the books and school car
What applies to the SMEE cars in this case also applies to the 44/46's. Go to coast, then to 2nd power.
>What applies to the SMEE cars in this case also applies to the >44/46's. Go to coast, then to 2nd power.
This was written about 44s only which make me think it was rebuilt out even the fact that 44s as non SMEE have 1st, 2nd and third not switch, series and para like the 46's.
You must be looking at very old manuals that refer to pre-GOH
R44 and R46 controls. Do they depict a slide handle or a
rotary controller?
The Westcode master controllers when first installed around 1986-88 were controlling the car's original WH retro group switchboxes, and could be stepped down a notch, even with straight air. It was an excellant method of controlling the trains speed in slow speed areas. Now, instead of controlling speed through this stepping down, we use field shunts instead in our less than rapid transit system.
Rotary and my material is dated January 2001.
Then the training book is in error. The current R44 can't
be downshifted. Thanks to Engine Brake for reminding me about
that brief period between the initial Westcode retrofit and
the GOH. Perhaps the manual is really from that time, but
I doubt it.
Nicely esoteric, Jeff! Although I *think* I remember the R1/9's not having a problem with dropping from 3 to 2 notch, I can't remember a time ever needing to do such a move. You'd pick up speed until you hit balancing and usually dropped it to coast in normal runs anyway, ready to apply if you needed to slow down. Since operation was normally wrap it to speed, then coast anyway I don't really see what the "drop to two" issue is about in the first place but it might just be me.
Perhaps it was "wishful dynamics?" Been reading and enjoying this conov which is more my own personal speed, but I'm wondering what teh point of dropping back a notch in normal operation would accomplish since you accelerate, coast, pop some more if you need it and brake when you need to slow down and I'm just wondering what I'm missing in normal ops. Trains ain't SUV's. :)
>I'm wondering what teh point of dropping back a notch in normal >operation would accomplish since you accelerate, coast, pop some >more if you need it and brake when you need to slow down
No real big deal I use series as a coast for certain areas areas. Or you are in a timed area and want to wrap it around just to get the C/R's head back in the window but don't really want to go too fast.
A down shift should be a smoother ride than an off then on motion. Even witha fast motion on some equipment you still get that lurch as the power goes than another one as it kicks in again.
Heh. Oh, you'd LOVE the BVE NYCTA rides (BVE is a "motorman simulator" for Windoze) ... BVE 2 has a "geeseometer" where the smileyface goes from a nice green "satisfied" bar meter to NYCTA OFFICIAL "red unhappy face blowing steam" in corporate colors. Heh.
Somehow, the "geese-o-meter" in Ed's ( mailto:r68a_5200@hotmail.com ) Franklin Shuttle as just one example would thrill you to no END ... many folks would think I'm nuts (I've PROVEN it often enough here) but after I've learned a BVE route, the own internal sickness in me takes over and I *REVEL* in irritating the geese just like I once did in uniform. "customers?" Boo-wah-hahaha ... heh. BVE lets you do the things you'd NEVER dare do on the road and yet get yer yay-yas joyfully. :)
Long live BVE - what you CAN'T do in RTO. :)
But I find it amusing that you would need to go from parallel to S/P without just dropping out and calling it a distant. :)
> and calling it a distant. :)
A wha?
I like to have all the smooth ride tricks BUT when the C/R tells you he misread the program and his meter is up or the guy who smells like shit and foot cheese and you can see the fleas hopping on him takes residence outside your cab door I am likely to sacrifice a smooth ride for some time. If I have a red smiley face we all get one.
Heh. Sorry for the confusion there ... by "distant" I meant a signal past the one you're passing now that suggests that the current speed is no longer practical. As to the wonderful smells coming from outside, I guess that was one of the advantages of the older non "streamlined" cars - drop that side window and plenty of air came through, helping the cabinmates determine WHO dealt it ... :)
The window stays closed. It is a devils dilema, assualt on my ears or my nose. Plus you have to wear glasses with the window open and I can't see through mine. I locks my focus until I ca't see properly.
I get dizzy walking the structure with them, it's quite unsafe.
I have a full blown toxic dust mask for when I work swicthing at WTC I am toying with wearing it "When Homeless Attack". Passing wind is NOTHING (well except for a friend of mine who ate lots of brocoli) compared to the crazy homeless smells.
Yow ... a lot of the old cars had the window down as a feature (if you tried to pull it up, it only fell back down anyway) and cars were a lot noisier then, flat wheels and all. The "googles" thing though would make me crazy too - wasn't a work rule then. My sympathies, bro. Years ago, you could get a nice stiff breeze through the cab so whatever happened outside the door didn't much matter. Ya'd pull out your clip and just shut it and enough breeze went through the vents on the bottom and around the sides to pretty much clear the cab quickly.
>>> a lot of the old cars had the window down as a feature <<<
And here I mistakenly thought you were one of the old timers. The old timers didn't open the window, the partially opened the outside door. :-)
Tom
Heh. Nah, by 1970, opening der storm dooren was verboten. They'd shoot ya for that. Also the "clips and the bloods" was in effect - you could use the clip on the door, but the slipper was RIGHT out ... so if you opened the cab door past what the clip allowed, management would assure you were bloodied. They actually feared someone would steal the train. Whoops. :)
>>> by 1970, opening der storm dooren was verboten. <<<
Who mentioned a storm door? I meant the one on the right side of the cab.
Tom
Sorry, straight relatives from Keokuk arrived, had to lose one turn. I know what ya means now, the IRT jobbies and early BMT cars where you had the stand in the vestibule. Those babies were long gone by the time I got my handles. Had to settle for a stupid drop down, stay down window instead. :)
No, the R1-9s work just like the R10-42 cars. Downshifting
from parallel back into series has no effect. However,
going down to switching and then notching between switching
and series can actually be used to provide manual acceleration
control.
Wow ... all those runs and never stepped on that duck. Going through interlockings, I'd often pull to series to get going but even there, back to coast ... coast was the popular speed on those things in most conditions so never even tried to play "18 wheeler" with the controller. Thanks for the info, I'm loving this thread!
IMO, a 44 has just the 1,2,3 instead of switching, series, parallel due to lack of space. The same worded terminology applies to the 44.
Just remember that with the 44/46's, the B car is 100% reliant on the A car for air & electricity. That is why when you do a walk around, the B cars always look wide open underneath, there aren't any major components down there.
And celebrate when you have 'B car' inspection. Peter
Are the motors arranged in series for that reason? to detect a defective motor in the set?
The reason traction motors are connected in series has only to do with their electro-mechanical charicteristics . Series-wound DC Motors will draw infinite current on starting and self-destruct if not restrained. Since the motors are rated at 300 volts DC, connecting 4 in series at start-up gives each 150 VDC. This serves to limit the output of the motor and protect it.
TrainDude is primarily correct but before I started with TA I assumed that trains had parallel winding setups: the subway car motor has four wires...two for field (fixed magnet coil) and two for armature (the spinning part.) DC motor speed is dependent upon the stregnth of the magnetic field and the load imposed on the motor. Industrial parallel systems use resistors to control current in the field for speed control...there is an unusual and dangerous condition in certain machines where loss of the field may cause an unloaded motor to spin at extremely high speed (the motor armature can also draw a phenomenal amount of current because of the very low winding resistance.) What TA motors do is a permanent connection in SERIES of the field and armature...some current limiting and more torque. Speed control is done by a bank of resistors undercar put in series with the motors resisting more current (the very same resistors used for dynamic braking.)
There is more current limiting in series wound motors because of the combined total resistance of the windings. The motorman has FOUR positions of the throttle on the Redbirds and current is controlled byt the Group Box undercar which selects resistor banks electromechanically (TD: got a problem with my notes ala R68A.)
Rest: No motors/no current/coasting
1st position: Series with resistor banks
2nd position: Full series without any resistors (four 300 volt motors wired in series (150 volts on each motor totalling 600 volts)
3rd position: Parallel: two banks of two 300 volt motors wired in parallel together.
If the motorman slams a Redbird throttle from 0 to 3, the group box will STEP the bank of resistors through large relay contacts in a process called 'notching' so the whole shebang doesn't burn up
AND when I grow up, I think I'd like to be a Road Car Inspector or a teacher, just like TrainDude. Peter
True trailers haven't been used in the NYC subway system for years.
Of course, there've been lots of unintended trailers :)
The R142/142A "B" cars are 1/2 trailers, i.e. they have only
2 motors.
R142 'B cars' aren't lightweights either. They might be missing one motor control system but carry the air compressor, batteries and low voltage power supplies that the 'A cars' are missing. Peter
Yeah, well, the A/C propulsion packages take up a lot of room
underneath. Each package controls one pair of motors. Funny,
even with the space gained by putting the HVAC compressor/condenser
in the roof, there isn't enough room under the A division carbody
to mount 2 propulsion packages AND a compressor or LVPS.
Hmmm, what about R143? Anyone know?
What exactly will the museum look like when the rehab is done? I always liked the fact that it was pretty much an original station. Also, because of recent events and the museum being closed, do you think there will be any Nostalgia Trains next year?
I didn't realize the museum is closed. Why? and when will it open again?
Info HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
How do you get information as to when the museum trains runs ?? especially those of us visiting....
It the museum is closed & members get the first information etc.. what do any of us do to reserve a
ticket to ride this summer when they run ?? where will they run from & to etc??? ........
.....please excuse my errors my E key needs to be repalced .....
come on folks !! anyone have an answer to this Q & A ??
I would normally say wait until the summer brochure comes out and check the events involving the upcoming Nostalgia runs. But since many events with the exception of the Nostalgia Special and walking tours took place in the museum, there may not be a brochure.
I'll give a call to someone I know at the museum and see if they spill the beans !
Bill "Newkirk"
well...thanks a whole lot .. since my trip to nyc during 11 03 01 my 5oth birthday in my birthplace was ruined by 911....
I wanted to try again this summer
The thing I wanted to include was finding out how to book a ride on the museum train now that the transit museum is closed ...
I was under the impression that transit museum members get the first information about this ..
But: now that its closed ....( ?? ) ...
What does the place being closed have to do with membership?
If you are a member you will get notice of the Nostaliga train before the general public does. The train just won't stop at the Museum this year. I'm sure they will run in 2002 but they run in the summer.
Now thats waht i wanted to know !! also how much does a 1 ONE YEAR membership cost ??
remember i hav to come in from the west coast !!
Why can't the station be cleared, repaired, and the roof shored up. Then, you could have trains just bypass it to South Ferry. This could not happen until the area above is cleared. I also still cannot fathom why the 5 cannot stop at South Ferry during Middays and Weekends. My only guess is pure laziness. The 5 could be switched to the outside loop, stop at SF, and then switched back to the inside. I know how difficult it is for towermen to punch in a lineup, but if you give them a raise, maybe...
The tunnel needs more than minor repairs. Much of it needs to be rebuilt.
Once again -- yes, off-peak 5's could stop at South Ferry. Would you like to stand outside the station and explain why it's open at all times except rush hours? There are a number of transfer points between the Lexington Avenue line and the N/R; those who prefer the shorter walk from Whitehall can always transfer.
there's a little problem of huge chunks of debris on the tracks. Now, before you go saying
"well, 4thAve.Local, why can't they just remove the debris?"
Ask yourself how? All the construction crews are busy upstairs, and even if they could find people to work downstairs, how would they take it out of the tunnel? They can't walk up the stairs, those are blocked. Hauling them thru the tunnels to the next unblocked station would work, but be incredibly slow, and probably what they're doing.
Even if they can clear the tracks and platform to a reaonable degree, there's no guarantee that the movement of the trains in that tunnel won't destabilze things. That was a concern for the broadway tunnel, and it would have to be a valid concern for the 7th avenue tunnel equally.
Maybe moving it West is a good idea. Let's build a super tunnel to Staten Island while we do it! :)
We all don't want the 7th Ave tunnel closed by the WTC, but we have NO choice. Unfortunately, there are more serios things happening above the Cortlandt St station......It will eventually open again. But, I think moving it is ludicrous. Why spend the money on moving it when the tunnel is already there?
The tunnel ran THROUGH the World Trade Center basement. Not only does the tunnel have to be repaired, but the area it rests on has to be fixed as well. It is probably easiest to remove the entire structure and then to rebuild the missing portion.
"The tunnel ran THROUGH the World Trade Center basement"
This is not my understanding. Diagrams that I have see put the IRT line Outside of the "bathtub". The old PATH station, which was right next to this station was inside of the bathtub.
Elias
Diagrams that I have see put the IRT line Outside of the "bathtub". The old PATH station, which was right next to this station was inside of the bathtub.
You are correct. Confusion arises because only part of the WTC complex (the Twin Towers plus the hotel plus the north-western bldg whose number I forget) were in the bathtub. The two easternmost bldgs were outside the tub, over the old Hudson Terminal PATH station that was decommissioned when the "new" WTC path loop was built within the bathtub as part of WTC construction.
So rebuilding the IRT on its current alignment would not require piercing the bathtub. OTOH, the plan to move PATH service to a lengthened Hudson Terminal station (to interconnect with the Fulton complex) would require piercing the east side of the bathtub.
Some pretty major civil engineering issues here.
First of all, the clean up upstairs at ground zero should take a year. That's priority one.
Next, there is talk of relocating the subway west of the present location to serve Battery Park City. That's a dumb idea. From the first enviromental impact study and public hearings till the line opens, it would take about 20 years. You can't just build a subway, it has to be planned ahead of time.
Of course there's the "bathtub". Those tunnels at Cortlandt St.(1)(9) are sealed for a reason. After things are cleaned up upstairs, now comes the task of removing tons of debris pummeled into the ground in what once was the WTC basement. Removing the debris encompasses the task of removing without disturbing the "bathtub" walls. If "bathtub" collapses, in comes the Hudson River. So you see getting Cortlandt St. and the line to South Ferry will take years.
Sending the #5 to South Ferry outer loop won't work either. With Whitehall St. open passengers can utilize that station or walk to Bowling Green. People will adjust their riding habits, it's been done before.
Bill "Newkirk"
1.Most of that tunnel needs rebuildung.
2.It's a safety hazard for trains to be running while construction is going on upstairs.
3.The Concourse was destroyed.
4.South Ferry is only 2 blocks from the 5.Plus you can transfer at Union square for the N and R.
.South Ferry is only 2 blocks from the 5.
Which two blocks might those be?
It doesn't matter.
I saved this article from 10/3/69 along with the wicker seat I stole borrowed requisitioned from a "Q" car on the last day of the Myrtle. Since I just got a scanner and finally figured out how to use it I figured I'd share it with my friends at SubTalk. Since my angelfire account doesn't allow remote images I had to put it on a very small webpage. To see it go to http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/myrtle.html
Of course the article is technically wrong since the el still exists between Broadway and Metropolitan.
Well I think they mean the part of Myrtle were it was removed...
Thanks for posting that image, Sarge! I wish that it would have scanned better. I would have loved to have copied it and put it in my scrapbook.
Actually it scanned very good. It was the newspaper that was bad. It was falling apart.
Nice heirloom, Sarge! THANKS!
Sure brings back memories when i rode that line from Fresh Pond Rd to Jay St and to my high school George Westinghouse on Tillary St.
one day coming home some of us had a bunch of bottles of apple blossom and put that stuff in one of the cars and went to the next car to watch as people went into the car and made a rapid exit as that smell was like a dozen crappers stock full....the only people who didn't exit was an old man who probably couldn't smell anyway and a drunk sleeping, the whole four car train was packed with S.R.O. as peoplewould not ride in THAT car......but that line was a fun ride,as at night the conductor would collect the fairs as the station booths were closed so people would just go up and wait for the train,the L.I. Press newspaper had a write up on that and if i find it i will share it with all.
Excellent, than you. I remember the line, rode it during my early rail-fanning days. I was 16 y/o when it got shut down.
I've seen it mentioned in passing several times here that the TA is "considering" moving the now-closed #1 route westward rather than rebuilding it in place.
Why? (to make more useful for World Financial Center riders?
Does anyone know what proposed alignment(s) they're looking at?
Lotta factors in play here ... PATH may extend old Hudson Terminal station (east of IRT) to let it interchange with the Fulton station complex ... moving # 1 train out of current alignment would require more holes in the "bathtub" wall around the WTC site (as would the PATH move) ... and there's strong pressure to sink West Street underground to connect WFC to whatever's built, so West Street alignment is probably out unless they do both at the same time (hard to imagine).
Hard info, anyone?
It is not going to happen. The cost would be prohibitive and would take too long..
The TA will be restoring the line once everything gets cleared up.
What might happen though is the installation of a switch south of Chambers which would allow #1 trains to end at Chambers then switch to the NB track to head north. This would restore full express service and send the #3 back to New Lots.
It is not going to happen. The cost would be prohibitive and would take too long. The TA will be restoring the line once everything gets cleared up.
Well, I can believe that, but anyone know where the speculation came from?
What might happen though is the installation of a switch south of Chambers which would allow #1 trains to end at Chambers then switch to the NB track to head north. This would restore full express service and send the #3 back to New Lots.
That's a short-term fix that probably makes it a lot easier to take longer to restore/relocate the damaged section. I would think they could get that in place within a year ... my bet is a rebuilt/relocated # 1 route won't be open before 2010. Hope I'm wrong, but ...
Getting that section open again will probably be like waiting for the 2nd Ave subway.....
I don't think so. Most of it involves removing the debris that feel in on top of the statiuon and tunnel area. Also involved is shoring up the bridge over the PATH concourse that the Cortlandt St station sits on (probaly the most important). Also new entrances and exits to the street would have to be constructed.
This would take considerably less time than the 2nd Av line.
Because of the design of the 1/9 tracks between Chambers and Vescey, installing a swtich for a turn-around would be very difficult. The local tracks headed towards Cortlandt don't come together until about 50 feet before the platform begins, meaning any switch put in without construction an entirely new turnaround track above the descending 2.3 tracks near Park Place would put the train within the WTC damage zone.
I don't think you need to sink West St. to connect up with the WFC considering the lobby level of the WFC is "one flight up" from ground. The bridges handle it well enough, maybe the south bridge should have been connected directly into 2 WTC in the first place but it's fine the way it was..
I don't think you need to sink West St. to connect up with the WFC considering the lobby level of the WFC is "one flight up" from ground. The bridges handle it well enough, maybe the south bridge should have been connected directly into 2 WTC in the first place but it's fine the way it was.
My bet is that the Winter Garden, which is a burned-out shell right now, gets rethought and redesigned so at-grade pedestrians can enter at ground level.
Once you take away the huge wall of the WTC and do ground-level entrances, you could do a very nice boulevard over a sunken West Street. Maybe a branch of the bikeway that now runs along the outside of Battery Park City could continue to Battery Park (more direct route).
Worthwhile noting that the WTC was designed assuming the presence of the West Side Highway viaduct -- so it wasn't so unfriendly 'cause no one would have wanted to spend time on the access road underneath anyhow. Now that the viaduct AND the WTC are gone, you can get back to decent urban design principles: Restore the street grid, restore the natural slope down toward the river, and build a nice pedestrian amentity to link at ground level entities (WTC, WFC) that had to be bridged before.
Right now, the notion of ground level is meaningless. I don't see why the ground, as far as pedestrians are concerned, couldn't be lifted up 15 or 20 feet. The highway would remain at its current level, underneath. If nothing else, trucks on the highway wouldn't have to negotiate the downgrade and upgrade others have suggested here.
Right now, the notion of ground level is meaningless. I don't see why the ground, as far as pedestrians are concerned, couldn't be lifted up 15 or 20 feet. The highway would remain at its current level, underneath. If nothing else, trucks on the highway wouldn't have to negotiate the downgrade and upgrade others have suggested here.
How about ...
(1) There IS a clearly obvious ground level north, south and east of the former WTC. Even the WFC buildings are built at that level. The entrance to them was above ground only because it was so hard to get to the WFC with the WTC and highway in the way.
(2) Dropping traffic down into a tunnel wouldn't be so bad since a lot of West Street traffic is heading to/from the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel. Reconfigure the ramps, do the drop further back ... they have to drop down anyway. Require everyone else to turn off at Chambers or give non-tunnel traffic a couple of escape routes into the street grid.
(1) I don't see why the east, south, and north fronts of the new WTC couldn't be at ground level with the west front somewhat higher. Few pedestrians will approach from West Street, anyway -- it's still a highway, even if it's not elevated.
(2) The highway continues south past the tunnel entrance to the Battery Park Underpass. Without the connection to the BPU, there will be no connection between the tunnel and the FDR Drive. Currently, the southbound left exit to the tunnel dives under the northbound roadway. If the entire highway is depressed, the ramp would need to dive down even further.
(1) Few pedestrians will approach from West Street, anyway -- it's still a highway, even if it's not elevated.
Not if it's sunk below grade it's not!
(2) The highway continues south past the tunnel entrance to the Battery Park Underpass. Without the connection to the BPU, there will be no connection between the tunnel and the FDR Drive. Currently, the southbound left exit to the tunnel dives under the northbound roadway. If the entire highway is depressed, the ramp would need to dive down even further.
Good point, but a fixable problem.
Whole point is here that the magnitude of losing the WTC site allows a once-in-100-years chance to rethink that area and by extension the foot and traffic flow, and transit, of all of western lower Manhattan.
Some of it won't be possible due to $$, entrenched interests, time and inertia. But some of it will be: Witness the PA's interest in moving the PATH station to the old Hudson Terminal site and connecting to Fulton subway complex. To my mind, New Yorkers should urge that a proper planning process be undertaken to balance off the many, many, MANY competing interests. The quickest rebuild is almost certain not to be the best.
I agree 100%. I'm not presenting this option because it's cheap or easy -- I'm presenting it because I think it would work well. In case I haven't been clear, I'm not advocating the status quo of a highway spanned by footbridges. I'm advocating that the space between the WTC and the WFC be decked over entirely and become, in effect, ground level, with the WSH passing beneath. (There is no such thing as ground level around there currently, and I see no reason that the new ground level must be in the same place as the old one.) The primary distinction between your proposal and mine is that yours adds unnecessary grades to the highway, and grades result in noise.
I agree 100%. I'm not presenting this option because it's cheap or easy -- I'm presenting it because I think it would work well. In case I haven't been clear, I'm not advocating the status quo of a highway spanned by footbridges.
Similarly, to be clear, neither was I. The proposals that have been discussed involve sinking the West Side Highway into a tunnel south of Chambers AND COVERING IT OVER entirely. That way you can have a boulevard, park, garden, whatever on top.
I'm advocating that the space between the WTC and the WFC be decked over entirely and become, in effect, ground level, with the WSH passing beneath. (There is no such thing as ground level around there currently, and I see no reason that the new ground level must be in the same place as the old one.)
Uhhhh ... but there IS a ground level there! Pre-WTC, the streets from Vesey to Liberty (N to S: Fulton, Dey, Cortlandt) all sloped down from Church Street to the ground below the West Side Highway. The current West Street is pretty level from Chambers to its end. THAT'S ground level!
Your proposal creates a mound with hills at north and south. This makes no sense at all to me. Yeah, it'd be easier to reconnect a level plaza on the former WTC site to a recreated Winter Garden ... but it would present the same barrier to access that the old design did. One lesson learned from the '60s is that people will rarely climb UP to parks they can't see from their level. So while your design would be nice for WTC/WFC tenants, everyone else on the lower-level of the ground (West Street, ground-level WFC, Battery Park City) is just as excluded as before. This seems to me bad urban design and, worse yet, recreating the mistakes of the past.
The primary distinction between your proposal and mine is that yours adds unnecessary grades to the highway, and grades result in noise.
From my POV, yours adds unnecessary grades (and visual/access barriers) for pedestrians. Noise from grades would be contained by the decking over of the sunken West Street connected directly to both the tunnel and the underpass. I'd rather make things better for hundreds of thousands of pedestrians than hundreds of trucks.
Who cares about pre-WTC? Regrade the east-west streets to meet the newly raised ground level. As you point out, the pre-WTC streets sloped down as they went west. Now they'd be level.
West Street doesn't attract many pedestrians. The only casualty is Battery Park City access, but I think that could be remedied without much difficulty.
Who cares about pre-WTC? Regrade the east-west streets to meet the newly raised ground level. As you point out, the pre-WTC streets sloped down as they went west. Now they'd be level.
Because then you end up with an abupt drop just east of West Street and make the whole area less pleasant for pedestrians.
West Street doesn't attract many pedestrians. The only casualty is Battery Park City access, but I think that could be remedied without much difficulty.
Yes, but my whole point has been that a tunneled West Street WOULD attract a LOT of pedestrians if pleasantly designed. The WTC wall is gone, the West Side Highway viaduct is gone ... so now's the chance to restore the "original" gentle slope down to the waterline.
Anyway, we've probably about thrashed this to death. Back to transit, shall we?
No abrupt drop. Pedestrians continue across (above) West Street into Battery Park City. West Street underneath is a lost cause to pedestrians, as a tunnel would be in your plan. West Street ends up effectively in a tunnel, although the tunnel is formed by raising the ground around it.
We're arguing over 15 feet elevation, that's all. Unless you really want to restore the "original" gentle slope down to the waterline, which as I'm sure you're aware would turn Battery Park City into an island. The terrain was changed when the WTC was built. The terrain was changed again when the WTC was destroyed. There's no sense in speaking of the natural slope, as the entire area is on landfill.
No abrupt drop. Pedestrians continue across (above) West Street into Battery Park City. West Street underneath is a lost cause to pedestrians, as a tunnel would be in your plan. West Street ends up effectively in a tunnel, although the tunnel is formed by raising the ground around it.
OK, but unless you're going to bury the base of the World Financial Center towers, you end up dropping to fill level there within about a 20-foot width ... which is a 45-degree drop. That's abrupt to me.
We're arguing over 15 feet elevation, that's all.
By the time you get clearance for the tallest of semis, concrete roof structure, utilties, flooring etc., I bet it's 20 feet or more.
Unless you really want to restore the "original" gentle slope down to the waterline, which as I'm sure you're aware would turn Battery Park City into an island.
Actually the landfill starts about midway through the WTC site. East of (roughly) the old Greenwich Street alignment was original Manhattan Island. That's why the "bathtub" is only under part of the WTC site. The IRT Cortlandt Street station is roughly where the old shore was, I believe.
I *can* imagine that tunneling West Street below its current alignment might be a challenge given the variation of fill that could be under there. Test borings required!
The terrain was changed when the WTC was built. The terrain was changed again when the WTC was destroyed. There's no sense in speaking of the natural slope, as the entire area is on landfill.
The terrain was changed mainly by the removal of the flat plaza "roof" over the site when the WTC was destroyed. If you go down and look at the area, now that they've torn down the remains of the Vista Hotel and much of the walls surrounding the former WTC complex ... you can see the slope of the surrounding streets (Vesey and Liberty) and imagine the site corresponding to that, i.e. its contours pre-1968.
Today's edition of the Destination:Freedom newsletter has the story. Click here and scroll down to the third story.
I'm assuming the train travels over the old B & M tracks (sorry; haven't lived in Boston since 1976) as far as Haverhill; any conflicts with local service?
The new MTH catalog arrived in today's mail, and as TrainDude said, there is no mention of any new Subway Set.
I was thinking at the very least they would be offering a two-car add-on set for the R-21.
However, a DD1,in both PRR and LIRR decor, is featured.
According to the MTH Website, R-17s are still set for January 15th. That'll just fill out my 4 track subway yard. Construction on a new 'upper' yard began yesterday.
If you have the opportunity, try to see the Fall 2001 issue of The Crossing Gate. This is the MTH Railroaders Club Magazine. The cover story is about a hobbyist who is telling how he created genuine graffiti to put on his MTH R-42 & R-21 Subway sets. This man must really love graffiti to go to the work to have it on those nice looking trains.
I don't belong to the MTH Club, but I actually found a website that sells graffiti decals:
Click here
Great find. I found that 6 car trains were a bit too long for my railroad. While I was considering selling my add-on sets, I think, thanks to your find, I may sacrafice one pair to the mini-grafitti vandals.
I have a few extra R-42 cars, too, and might do something similar. I originally bought a 4-car Proto-1 set, a 4-car "with horn" set, and two 2-car add-ons. I've experimented with various configurations and will probably have one 8-10 car train once Digital Dynamics releases their "Equalizer" hardware. (I'll convert the sets to run in Lionel TMCC Command Mode.) All of my cars are the all-silver (post GOH) models; I wished I had bought the blue-stripe models back in '98. If I cover some with grafitti and rust, nobody will know the difference.
Supposedly, MTH will be releasing add-on cars for the R-21, R-32, and R-17 sets at some time in the future. Buying extra R-17 cars (with the blue stripe), covering them with grafitti, and intermixing them in a train with "clean" R-17's would make an authentic 1970's consist.
Then..there's always work trains. I purchased an SW-1500 diesel (Protosound-2) and painted it yellow, with black stripes and grime, and a bunch of beat-up used flat cars and gondolas. A few beat-up, repainted subway cars would fit right in. I may actually make the work train truly useful by getting a track-cleaning car and running the consist around the layout every so often.
A friend told me yesterday that he had seen a Third Ave el Termination Notice fron 1955 in an eBay auction one day last week!
I have tried to find the auction using any combination of search words I could think of but have been unable to find it either as an active or a completed auction. I would assume that if it were there it would be completed by now.
Did I get a B...s... story or did someone else see this auction?
Karl B:
I saw this on e-bay last week. My search was "New York City Subways".
I believe somebody has bid on it,but I don't remember the amount.(I think it was substantial,maybe fifty or sixty dollars).
Robert
I still can't find that auction, even using your search words.
This has happened before, once an auction is over it completely disappears, and doesn't show in completed auctions.
My friend should have written down the auction number for me.
Hello,
Closed bids on ebay can go into a "limbo" shortly after they close. Try your search again the next day.
I finally found it!
It was eBay #1031798820. The auction closed on Nov 18th.
The winning bid was $103.51!
That seems like an awesome amount to pay for a single sheet of paper.
I nominate Myself for the Western Region area....I know I am # 1 in westcoast transit photography example below ...
So let all go to the polls & vote !! .............lol !!!
I AM THE BEST ........... IN THE WEST ....................lol !!
The LIRR must have gotten new equipment for the "Long Beach" line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
........OH NO !! ..........what kind of junker new gear was that if i may ask ??................lol ....
U mean like dis' ?????
LOL .......???
Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gp38 ""junker light rail junk"" these japenese junkers R rustin on thier sides IN LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA !!!
geeeeeezzzzzzzz !!!!!!! the orther light rail cars ( the name escapes me ) R much better !!!!
I hope you realize I was kidding about the LIRR and Long Beach. Of course I knew they were in Long Beach, CA, or is the Queen Mary in New York Harbor?
ok sorry ....
Accepted...................
.........lol!!
I prefer your original handle, 'Mr. Willie'. Alot shorter and easier to remember, thank you very much...
lol@@@@!!!!!!!lol@LOL
hope this works robbed this shot from DAVES RAILPIX site
shows the original paint scam on th los angles blue line car # 102 in the long beach blue line shops ...1990 or so
I DID TAKE SOME PHOTOS BUT THEY WERE NOT WHN THE CARS WERE AS NEW ...
hope this works robbed this shot from DAVES RAILPIX site
shows the original paint scam on the los angles blue line car # 102 in the long beach blue line shops ...1990 or so
I DID TAKE SOME PHOTOS BUT THEY WERE NOT WHN THE CARS WERE AS NEW ...
I saw a factory-fresh Airtrain car on a flatbed trailer parked on the shoulder of the northbound lanes of Route 1 at I-287 near Metuchen this afternoon. I only got a quick glance, but the car was glossy gray with blue trim and "Airtrain" lettering on the side. Have any other of these cars arrived yet?
I saw about tem two week ago in the yard, white going by.
Robert
I saw about ten, two week ago in the yard, white going by.
Robert
Heh heh heh hope PA has better luck. Peter
If you take the eastbound Belt Parkway and use Route 878 (Nassau Expy) to go to Kennedy Airport, you should be able to see some a JFK Airtrain maintenance facility on your right side. I saw several Airtrain cars there the other day, uncoupled.
There have been cars there for at least six months!!!
Aaron from Long Beach ? Where have you been my friend ?
Mr rt__:^)
I'll give it a look see on our next railfan trip.
BMTman
For all you non-drivers out there, take the A to Howard Beach and take one of the airport terminal buses (Route A or B). They both pass by the facility. I've done this a few times for bus connections (B15, Q3, Q10. Terminal 4 is the last one they stop at before leaving the airport).
I was wondering if someone out there could give me a brief definition of EL as it applies to NYC and then why/when so many of them were town down. Many subway lines are "elevated", but on the maps those lines are usually identified as part of the "subway" system. Were subway elevated lines and "elevated" elevated lines somehow constructed differently? Did they use different rolling stock or something? What made them so unpopular compared to the "subway" elevated lines. I have been unable to find a nice summary elsewhere on this site.
The old els were of much weaker construction than the current "subway" els. The cars that ran on them were of much lighter construction. Some of the old els were rebuilt to subway standards, like the Broadway el, and the upper Myrtle line (Metro-south to Myrtle). But a lot weren't. So when the time came that the old cars had to be retired, they chose to dismantle them as opposed to rebuild the els (or buy new lightweight equipment).
In Manhattan though, I think people just wanted them of the Avenues, but I think they were also weaker construction like Myrtle, etc.
El short for Elavatored. The Subway ran on a El but a El never ran in the subway. So the lines stated El were out door, Elevatored and naver ran subway.
"El" stands for "elevated," not "elevatored." They are elevated off the ground. They don't use an elevator.
- Lyle Goldman
That weaker construction is really not a big factor. There's no difference between a 'subway el' and an 'elevated el'. Reason why some were torn down and others weren't was due to the powerful IND (which led to the fall of the Fulton and 6th av els), The NYCTA (myrtle av el) and eventual replacement by subway (4th av subway replaces 5th/3rd av els, Chambers st and Nassau st replace Park row.)
Another thing that really killed els in Brooklyn was the closing of the bklyn bridge to rail traffic.
Where exactly do you hail from? The outback?
There is a grand total of zero differences between today's els and those that were ripped down. They have the exact same definition. But, some were removed due to subway replacement (Fulton st line, 3rd av el[still waiting though]).
Were subway elevated lines and "elevated" elevated lines somehow constructed differently?
No. They were the same steel (or concrete) construction. They often used the same cars.
What made them so unpopular compared to the "subway" elevated lines.
ALL els were loud and noisy, and they depreciated land value, which is why there is no elevated lines in manhattan south of 116st.
The reason why some els still remain standing is because it was unnecessary to replace them with subway, they still had high ridership, and they were a part of a subway line (which kind of harks back to your first 'question', about 'els' being a part of the subway). some of the remaining els today are parts of other els that were torn down. (A line from Grant to Lefferts. F from Ditmas,W from 9av, to Coney Island)
To conclude:
Where the hell have you been?
The Metro-North tracks are elevated north of 97th Street.
There is a grand total of zero differences between today's els and those that were ripped down. They have the exact same definition.
Total bullshit. This should discredit the rest of your post. Old elevated lines were of flimsier construction and could not support all steel subway cars. Meanwhile, after Malbone Street, wooden cars were not allowed in the subway. The only place were the two could run together were the newer elevated subways, the only old line upgraded to such standards were the Broadway Elevated and the Myrtle east of it.
The BMT Multisections were designed specifically to be made of 100% metal structure and body and still be light enough to navigate the elevated lines. When the city bought the BMT in 1940, they put a stop to that. Very few elevated subways have ever been demolished.
the only old line upgraded to such standards were the Broadway Elevated and the Myrtle east of it.
The Fulton St line from Atlantic to Crescent St was also upgraded. It was also extended from Crescent to Lefferts.
IIRC the Fulton St. el was also upgraded from Franklin Ave. to Atlantic Ave. It was NOT upgraded between Atlantic and Grant Aves.; i. e., the portion above Pitkin Ave. If you were to run a steel subway train on that stretch, one word comes to mind: TIMMM-BERRRRR!!
Don't forget that the el turned off of Pitkin onto Euclid, and then turned onto Liberty,
I don't believe that the Liberty Ave portion was upgraded. It looked like the lighter weight structure past Grant Ave almost to Hudson St.
I used both the Grant Ave and Crescent St stations on that el many times. Crescent was a side platform station, really narrow, and very shaky!
The only place were the two could run together were the newer elevated subways
The point being that the lighter elevated cars were allowed to run on the heavier "subway system" els but not in the subway tunnels, while subway cars could not run on any portion of the "el" system.
Total bullshit. This should discredit the rest of your post. Old elevated lines were of flimsier construction and could not support all steel subway cars.
No it isn't. The way Jersey Mike wrote the post, the els were part of 2 seperate systems, and one type of els were hated while the others weren't.
You say here that the only els that were upgraded were the Broadway & Myrtle els. So, I guess the Fulton st el doesn't count? How about the Franklin?
Second, define an el for me. Where in the definition does it say enything about the strength of an el?
Very few elevated subways have ever been demolished.
"Elevated subway" is a misnomer, and an oxymoron. The correct term is "Elevated railway". "That should discredit the rest of your post."
What I said was not "total bullshit". The whole J/M/Z line was preserved, even though it was an older el. By your definition, (combined with Jersey Mike's question), the Broadway el should have been torn down, because it wasn't (and isn't) a subway el.
The J/Z Broadway el WAS UPGRADED, and so was the Myrtle el from Myrtle-Broadway to Wyckoff, at that time the el was also extended to Fresh Pond. (it origionally ran ground level after Wyckoff.
No it isn't. The way Jersey Mike wrote the post, the els were part of 2 seperate systems, and one type of els were hated while the others weren't.
Yes, they were part of two separate systems, exactly as Jersey Mike thought it was. In addition to being the same nuisance that a current el is, the older-style els were more decrepit, in Brooklyn they had to use terminals in Downtown Brooklyn or at Park Row instead of going into Manhattan. In Manhattan the els would have been demolished regardless of their construction standard.
You say here that the only els that were upgraded were the Broadway & Myrtle els. So, I guess the Fulton st el doesn't count?
No it doesn't, it never connected into any subway and was still imprisoned with elevated cars until the multis came along, and then there weren't enough of them.
How about the Franklin?
That does not have the same disability because it sits on land, not on a steel structure.
Second, define an el for me. Where in the definition does it say enything about the strength of an el?
As Jersey Mike asked the question, he wanted to know why some lines, while elevated were still identified as part of the "subway" system. That is where the definition comes in. The companies, the city, and the people all understood the difference, it was well-defined.
"Elevated subway" is a misnomer, and an oxymoron. The correct term is "Elevated railway". "That should discredit the rest of your post."
It is not an oxymoron, it is the obvious term to describe an elevated line that's part of the subway division and thus capable of supporting all steel subway cars.
What I said was not "total bullshit".
It is. You obviously don't know what you're talking about if you think there was no difference between most of the demolished elevated lines that were part of the Elevated Division, and the elevated lines that remain today.
The whole J/M/Z line was preserved, even though it was an older el. By your definition, (combined with Jersey Mike's question), the Broadway el should have been torn down, because it wasn't (and isn't) a subway el.
The Broadway El was and remains a subway el. It was upgraded by the BMT girder by girder in 1915. Before that it was part of the Elevated Division, afterwards it was not. You chose to ignore that part of my post because it's not convenient to you, you don't want to be confused by the facts, apparently.
Yes, they were part of two separate systems, exactly as Jersey Mike thought it was. In addition to being the same nuisance that a current el is, the older-style els were more decrepit, in Brooklyn they had to use terminals in Downtown Brooklyn or at Park Row instead of going into Manhattan. In Manhattan the els would have been demolished regardless of their construction standard.
Guess that the BMT east is not part of the subway system then. It has to use cars that are different from the BMT south. (sort of like the Wood cars thing).
The thing is that many of the els were not 'hated' or 'torn down', as Jersey Mike asked, because of weight restrictions. They were as follows:
1. 5th av el was replaced by subway
2. Park Row replaced by subway
3. Fulton elevated replaced by IND
4.Brooklyn Broadway El strengthened and used by steel cars
Furthermore, this discussion seems to merely rest on BMT el structures. Let us not forget the IRT's old els, including the 3rd av el. Was that torn down because it was too weak?
I don't mind being wrong. It happens. I do mind people sitting here and insulting my posts and calling them bullshit. Especially when you are simply looking at one part of the system.
That(the franklin av shuttle) does not have the same disability because it sits on land, not on a steel structure.
Ever ridden the franklin av shuttle?
Guess that the BMT east is not part of the subway system then. It has to use cars that are different from the BMT south. (sort of like the Wood cars thing).
Except that the BMT East cars can be used anywhere on the IND or BMT South.
The thing is that many of the els were not 'hated' or 'torn down', as Jersey Mike asked, because of weight restrictions. They were as follows:
Yet there are still plenty of elevated lines (including the Broadway-Brooklyn El) that continue to exist, why is it that nearly all of the els outside of Manhattan that were demolished happened to be of the older style? The Broadway-Brooklyn el probably would have died had it not been upgraded either. The older style els also suffered from their inability to run on Manhattan mainlines from Brooklyn.
Furthermore, this discussion seems to merely rest on BMT el structures. Let us not forget the IRT's old els, including the 3rd av el. Was that torn down because it was too weak?
Do you enjoy ignoring everything I say, including parts that you quote, like: "In Manhattan the els would have been demolished regardless of their construction standard." If the Manhattan els had survived, there could still be a separate el system.
Ever ridden the franklin av shuttle?
What part of the Franklin Avenue shuttle apart from bridges over cross streets includes a steel structure?
The strengthening of 19th-Century El lines was a political hot potato during the time of the Dual Contracts construction.
If The BRT (later BMT) had gotten what it wanted, vitually all of the old els would have been reinforced and incoroprated into their subway. Mayor John T. Hylan probably did more to stop further el renovations than anybody else.
As some other posters have indicated, there was a difference in the structural integrity of the els as opposed to the elevated subway portions. Get a hold of a copy of the book "The Brooklyn Elevated" (by James Greller and Edward Watson) and look through the photographs. One photo shows the reconstruction of the Broadway El in progress. Sidewalk-mounted columns and heavy transverse beams replaced the pavement-mounted, latticework uprights of the original structure, and plate girders were fastened on to the sides in certain sections.
Because not all of the els were reinforced in this fashion, many of them could not support the weight of steel subway cars (until the multis came along). That is why the Myrtle-Jay line ran wooden "Q" cars until its demise in the late '60's, while the northern portion of the line between Broadway and Metropolitan Avenue could run steel cars. (That section was rebuilt.) That is also why the portion of the Fulton Street El between Broadway Junction and 80th Street-Hudson had to employ the claptrap "C" cars and the Multis until that section was replaced by the IND subway. The section along Liberty Avenue, where the "A"-train runs today, was a Dual-Contracts extension built to subway standards.
Get a hold of a copy of the book "The Brooklyn Elevated" (by James Greller and Edward Watson) and look through the photographs. One photo shows the reconstruction of the Broadway El in progress. Sidewalk-mounted columns and heavy transverse beams replaced the pavement-mounted, latticework uprights of the original structure, and plate girders were fastened on to the sides in certain sections.
And all the time, service was uninterrupted!
Still, those els are the exact same thing as a normal el. Wouldn't you agree that many of those els could have easily been reinforced much like the Broadway-el. But they were either replaced by subway or just eliminated.
For somebody to say that the els are two completely different creatures because of weight restrictions is like saying that the George Washington and Manhattan bridges are two different things too.
For somebody to say that the els are two completely different creatures because of weight restrictions is like saying that the George Washington and Manhattan bridges are two different things too.
The point is that they were two separate systems. One was the old "el system" and was built for lightweight wooden cars. The other was the "subway system," portions of which were built on elevated structures. These "subway" el structures were built to hold the heavier subway cars.
Because of the weight restrictions on the older el system, and fire hazards in the tunnels of the subway system, there was no running of one system's cars on the other system.
With one exception. The lightweight el cars were allowed to run on the elevated portions of the subway system.
This might be true. In fact, Pig is right; the els are not completely the same.
But in reference to Jersey Mike's questions, their being of weaker construction had nothing to do with their not being incorporated into the subway system. It was a number of different reasons that led to the removal of some els.
their being of weaker construction had nothing to do with their not being incorporated into the subway system. It was a number of different reasons that led to the removal of some els.
It had something to do with their not being incorporated into the subway system. It was one of those different reasons you mention.
For somebody to say that the els are two completely different creatures because of weight restrictions is like saying that the George Washington and Manhattan bridges are two different things too.
The George Washington and Manhattan Bridges are two different things. They may both be suspension bridges, but that doesn't mean they are built the same way or can serve the same purposes.
Jtrain, you are partially right..
It's true that politics more than structural matters brought about the end of almost all Manhattan Elevated lines (actually ALL of them if we use the proper definition of "elevated") and the BMT elevateds in Brooklyn. Also true that these lines COULD have been strengthened, like the Broadway Line.
However, the simple culture of rail and subway fanning necesitates that we recognize the differences between "elevateds" and "elevated subwa
>>Where exactly do you hail from? The outback? <<
He hails from New Jersey. I guess that qualifies as the outback
(Sorry Dave).
>>>He hails from New Jersey. I guess that qualifies as the outback <<<
Yah got that right...I lived in that miserable cesspool of a state for 15 years...
Let the flames begin...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I worked there for 11 years. I never want to see another "jughandle" for the rest of my life!
>>> I never want to see another "jughandle" for the rest of my life! <<<
Not to mention TRAFFIC CIRCLES!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you brother, I was born in raised in that cesspool. I only back now to visit my son (I think I could bring my ex-wife up on child abuse charges for keeping the little guy in NJ). I see it as Afganistan West - Taliban in charge of the police and courts also. You basically have no rights in the court system over there, from traffic court to criminal court. I was once lockup overnight for not properly puttin my grass clipping out at the curb.
LONG LIVE NEW YORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>I was once lockup overnight for not properly puttin my grass clipping out at the curb.<<<
I'm surprised you didn't get life. You must've been in a liberal town.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was once lockup overnight for not properly puttin my grass clipping out at the curb.
Little Silver? No, wait, they just fine you $5000 (third offense - first is $500, second $1000).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Partly the reason the ELS were shut down for one the sixth and ninth avenue ELs were doomed because once the"IND" built quicker and larger subway lines on sixth and eighth avenue.The Second Avenue El was razed with the belief that a second avenue subway would be built,The Third Avenue El was doomed The Manhattan EL was built in 1878, an aging structure with only old wood trains with short platforms.The city wanted the Third Avenue EL razed, so Real Estate could prosper with commercial and high rise buildings. My dad broke in on the old Third Avenue El in the late 40's, he used to be on the old tower with the drawbridge between Manhattan and the Bronx.
>>Where exactly do you hail from? The outback? <<
He hails from New Jersey. I guess that qualifies as the outback
You may think Jersey Mike hails from New Jersey because of his handle, but he actually hails from South Jersey, which is an entity not recognized by those who find themselves north of the Raritan river. BTW, please don't judge South Jersey based on your opinions of JM; many of us South Jersey residents are fine people.
The border is I-195.
The border is I-195.
That's Central Jersey.
It's a common perception down in South Jersey and Philly, though. People in North Jersey think Trenton is in South Jersey, and vice versa.
You see, this is all very funny, since New Jersey is less than 200 miles from the northern extreme (near Port Jervis, NY) to the southern extreme (Cape May), and that's a sort of diagonal line. It's like 173 miles on the Garden State. It's never more than about 70 miles accross (sometimes much less.)
It would seem to this New Yorker that New Jersey is too small to be divided as such. But then it is the most densely populated state in the country. And even I have noticed differences in accents from north to south, insignificant as the distance is.
Now New York State is more than 500 miles from Montauk to the Niagara Falls area, and the western third has more in common with the Midwest than anything on the east coast (and is part of the Great Lakes/Rust Belt region.) This is a state with a little expanse.
(And it's still no match for most western states.)
:) Andrew
Even though North Jersey and South Jersey are practically within walking distance, there are substantial differences between people from the different areas, and even within areas.
And even I have noticed differences in accents from north to south, insignificant as the distance is.
At a high school football game a few years ago, fans from Paulsboro were laughing at the accents of the cheerleaders from Sterling High (Camden County, 15 miles ESE of Center City Philly and (maybe [a guess]) 20 miles north of Paulsboro.
>>> It would seem to this New Yorker that New Jersey is too small to be divided as such. <<<
Hmm, to think New Jersey is too small to be divided, which part of New York City have you not seen, Manhattan or Staten Island? :-)
Tom
"(And it's still no match for most western states.)"
Go to California. Angelenos like me from SoCal are very different from those from Northern California. While San Franciscans look down on Angelenos and think themselves more like New Yorkers, New Yorkers just see one big state. New Yorkers see the whole world as one place, but within New York, everyplace is its own world and that should be respected. Also, New Yorkers think they are the greatest people in the world (not to say they're not), but the rest of the world doesn't care, especially those from Los Angeles.
California: Greatest East-West distance: 560 miles.
New York : Greatest East-West distance: 409 miles.
California: Greatest North-South distance: 646 miles.
New York : Greatest North-South distance: 310 miles.
Go to California
No, go to Alaska:
Alaska Greatest East-West distance: 2,200 mi. (3,540 km)
California: Greatest East-West distance: 560 miles
Alaska: Greatest North-South distance: 1,200 mi. (1,930 km)
California: Greatest North-South distance: 646 miles
But there are no people inhabiting all of Alaska. California pretty much has people everywhere.
But there are no people inhabiting all of Alaska. California pretty much has people everywhere.
Population density per square mile:
Alaska: 1.0
California: 190.8
New York: 381.0
New Jersey: 1,041.9
No fair! Your New Jersey numbers include people wearing cement overcoats.
I have done business in Orleans County, NY, about equisdistant between Rochester and Buffalo. The accents there seemed distinctly Southern, and old hoboes were hanging out by the Railroad crossing. I almost expected Carrol O'Connor, in his sherrif mode, to come along.....and urge those guys to go home.
The border is I-195.
That's Central Jersey.
It's a common perception down in South Jersey and Philly, though. People in North Jersey think Trenton is in South Jersey, and vice versa.
I've heard on a different forum that the real dividing line in New Jersey runs more in a northwest-southeast direction than east-west. It originally marked off some sort of political division in the Colonial era. I can't recall the name given to this line, but it runs roughly from the Delaware Water Gap to some point north of Atlantic City, and today is marked off in part by the western/southwestern borders of Ocean and Somerset counties.
People living to the west of this line supposedly are oriented more toward Philadelphia, while those to the east identify with New York.
Which also makes the point, no one in New Jersey identifies with New Jersey! It does not really exist. Part wants to be NYC and part wants to be Philly. But none want to be NJ..................
Which also makes the point, no one in New Jersey identifies with New Jersey! It does not really exist. Part wants to be NYC and part wants to be Philly. But none want to be NJ.................
That's close. Actually, one part is glad it isn't New York and the other part is glad it isn't Philly.
I don't think Ocean County borders on Somerset County. Somerset is to the west of Middlesex and north of Mercer. Ocean is to the south and east of Middlesex.
:-) Andrew
I don't think Ocean County borders on Somerset County. Somerset is to the west of Middlesex and north of Mercer. Ocean is to the south and east of Middlesex.
While that is true, the borders of Ocean and Somerset counties mark discontinuous portions of this demarcation line whose name I cannot recall. Middlesex and Mercer county borders presumably have changed since Colonial days and therefore do not reflect the line.
I being very North Jersey think anything lower than Linden is hick lol. I myself don't use the term Central Jersey just South Jersey I usually call Toms River South Jersey but most people say, "No, thats central not south." But I don't care. If you get Philly stations not NYC stations your South Jersey.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Jersey Mike is also a liar who promised us a Track Map of the NYC Subway. His failure to follow through on his promise has delayed the jihad.
Sincerely,
Achmed Abdul Schmegegie
(no relation to infidel Alan Glick)
Jtrain, I'm going to speak to you a little nicer than you addressed your fellow sub-talker..
You're RIGHT when you say that many old "El" lines were torn down because of theiir supposed effecton property values, and why almost no Els of any kind exist in Manhattan today.
However, the Els built before the advent of the subway WERE different in their construction- they carried only lightwieght (in fact, wooden cars)- you can see this diffrence quite esily in photographs- notice how most of the steel is either latticework rather than solid, or IF solid (5th ave line), lacked ribbing to make it stronger.
For the lines that DID survive the 1940s, the TA was faced with a choice of rehabbing and re-equipping these lines, or scrapping them. They chose the short-sighted solution- the acetylene torch.
That said, SOME subway-era El lines have also been demolished, including the far end of the Jamaica Avenue Line and the part of the Culver Line between Ditmas and Ninth Avenues.
I believe, but I could be wrong, that part(not all) of the Fulton el, that was demolished, was also rehabbed like the end portion to Lefferts that is still in use....or did they just strengthen that part?
Based on pics I've seen and messages posted by other Sub-talkers, the consensus regarding the Futlon El is as follows:
Ramianing Part Used by the IND: Upgraded to subway standards, or may actually have been constructed as part of the dual-contract era.
Part Demolished circa 1956: Un-rehabbed. Not suitable for subway cars.
Part demolished circa 1940: Parts upgraded, but it doesn't seem that subway equipmewnt was ever run there.
If I've got this wrong, or incomplete, I of course invite anyone to inform me.....
In New York, conventional elevated lines were those built before the subway era, that is, 19th century, or extended as els later. These ran above the streets or occasionally at grade, as was originally the case with the Culver Line. Construction was spare - box girders, wooden station buildings and platform surfaces. Rolling stock by nature was lightweight - wooden cars at first hauled by small steam locomotives. Some were later equipped with electrical gear after electricity replaced steam about 1898-1902.
In the first couple of decades of the 20th century, additional els were built, but as extensions in the outer boroughs of IRT and BRT/BMT subway lines. In order to accomodate heavier steel subway cars, they were considerably more substantial than older el structures, with heavier steelwork and and concrete platforms, among other features.
Because of politics and to some extent popular sentiment, elevated lines were viewed as antiquated even by the 1920s when the Independent System was taking form. Only a few attempts were made to build truly modern rolling stock that would be able to run on older els, such as the BMT's Zephyr, Bluebird and - yes - Green Hornet. But the fate of most of the Manhattan els and a good part of the Brooklyn system was sealed when the city took over the private companies in 1940 and immediately closed down several lines. Only World War II slowed the purge for awhile.
Since then, most of the remaining 19th century els have come down, with the exception of some of the present-day J line in Brooklyn. The southern part of the Myrtle Ave. el and the Bronx remnant of the Third Ave. el were the last purely elevated (not subway extensions) to go, in 1969 and 1973, respectively.
I remember when the Myrtle and the Bronx Third Av Els were still around the non-official subway maps (for ex the subway maps in the Hagstrom Maps) showed those els differently than they showed the rest of the lines. It was a narrow black line. The key to those maps showed 4 types of lines:BMT LinesIRT LinesIND Linesand elevated lines
>>> I remember when the Myrtle and the Bronx Third Av Els were still around the non-official subway maps (for ex the subway maps in the Hagstrom Maps) showed those els differently than they showed the rest of the lines <<<
The official BOT 1948 map which was in the subway cars (and is available on this site) shows the Els differently than the three subway divisions.
Tom
I remember that the El lines always looked like "second class" lines on the old maps. While the IND, IRT and BMT were broad, color-coded stipes, the El lines were thin black lines.
-- Ed Sachs
Well for once no one wanted to live under an el.Why you ask?1.No sun was going to their precious plants(That's why the open cut and enbankment methods were prefered)2.Most of the el structures were weak(Which is still a mystery to me because of the 1,2,4,5,6,7,A,F,G,J,L,M,N,Q,W and Z el's).3 No one likes the overhead rattling sound a train makes.
Els were built for strictly ELEVATED routes, and i dont think they could cover the amount of inter-borough distances that the subway could. ELs could use Wood cars, and the subways couldn't as a fire hazard. Subways are elevated in the outer boroughs because they were either built into existing els, or they were cheaper to construct than a tunnel. Els blighted neighborhoods, and they were noisy. walk down brooklyn's broadway sometime and it looks like the Bowery 30 years ago. the bowery used to have an el. overall, Els just sucked. and subway els are better for reasons that are best left unexplained.
Of course, the 7 Queens blvd el is pretty, not an eyesore, and hasn't blighted the surrounding neighborhood. :-)
The el on the Bowery was more like 46 yrs ago, not 30.
1954-55
1973 actually was when the last fossilized remains were exhumed. But Manhattan got the axe in '53 through '55 ... but much of the third avenue el remained, thumbing its nose for YEARS after it was "dead" ... as it turned, out the "dilapidated structure" was way more robust than the gear the wreckers brough out and broke. Whoops. :)
That's because the 7 line is on a wide boulevard so it doesn't really impact the sourounding neighborhod as a regular el. Don't get me wrong, I like riding on els, but I do believe they do blight the street that they are running on. It's a wonder why more of them didn't run on their own ROW like the M line does through Ridgewood. That el has not blighted anything. (any blighting is not because of the el.) It runs through people's backyards, and doesn't ruin a street. (I know that was origionally a private ROW at grade level) I wonder why more weren't set up that way.
well, the 7 doesnt blight just because qns blvd is wide. its not an eyesore. since the renovation, its the most beautiful and aesthetically pleasing el structure in the city. good job mta!
Probably in the same category as the "M" line we could include the Brighton and Sea Beach Lines, which run on right-of-ways off the street. (Although it must be stated: not a whole lot of either of those lines are elevated, but rather, run below grade or on embankments.)
If you want to see the effects of a true elevated line that runs on a private right-of-way, visit Chicago. Several of their lines run on alleys situated between two streets.
The best definition of an "EL" is and elevated structure that was built prior to any subway construction and/or in a few instances a portion od an elevated line constructed later that never connection with a subway. However a portion of the Jamaica line is actually an unimproved "EL" that dates back to the 1890s and is incorporated into the present day subway system. Believe it or not a substanial portion of the Fulton St. elevated in Brooklyn was upgraded to accept the BMT "Standard" and perhaps "Triplex" cars but the connecting trackage that was needed at Gold St. to connect the Fulton St. "EL" to the main BMT subway line at DeKalb Ave. was never built so the potential of the upgraded Fulton St. "EL" was never realized. If it was it is possible that there would have never been an IND subway line built under Fulton Street.
#3 West End Jeff
I understand from previous posts that if your RDO is a Thursday, you're off for Thanksgiving. What happens when a holiday falls on your work day? Trains and buses operate will operate on a Sunday schedule this Thursday, Thanksgiving. In that case, the TA doesn't need the full complement of bus drivers and T/Os as there isn't a rush hour.
How is it determined which operators and T/Os will have the day off even though it is a regular scheduled work day?
Michael
For senior personel who pick their holiday tricks months in advance, the TA already knows what they will be doing on a holiday. Either the employees picked the holiday off if they already have S/S off and were not normally required to work weekend schedules, or picked a holiday job on a weekend schedule in lieu of opting out. Some prepackaged jobs mandate you belong to the CDO, in which they can assign you an extra job, or order you to take the day off, and others mandate you take the day off without argument. The junior people are now left to deal with. Looking at current assignment sheets, many extra extra personel, whos RDOs can change from week to week, have received RDO changes from various days off to S/S for this week, perhaps to cushion the extra board. Any extra persons left over on the payroll must be paid whether they have a job or not.
for stations:
If your RDOs include the holiday (ie RDOs are Thursday and Friday) your are off on Thanksgiving.
If your RDOs are any other day other than SSH (Saturday, Sunday, Holiday) it is a work day.
Assuming it is a work day and you did not pick the holiday in the pick room you can save the day to use later or get time and a half plus the regular days's pay.
Let's assume yopu work a Lunch relief which does operate on Sunday or you have a part-time bvooth closed on Sunday or a booth iside a building which is closed then you'd be extra and have to call Wednesday for your job for Thursday. If you dont call then you are AWOL. (And as has been stated here due to the WTC, that is quite serious.)
I guess Thanksgiving Day will be 'inspection'...I have RDO S/S and signed up to work to earn the AVAs. For us 'juniors,' the big question will be what happens in the pick coming up especially with discontinuance of 'reefing' and moving crews from 180 to 239. Peter
The arrival of new unholy GE P32-8's has displaced yet more of the historic FL-9 fleet. Metro North FL-9's 2007, 2022, 2033, 2030, 2028, 2031 and 2029 have been sidelined and now join Metro North F-10 412, Metro North (former Niagara Junction) E-10B electrics 401, 402, 403, and the elusive, seldom photographed Long Island RR FL-9's 300, 301 and 302 on the deadline.
There are rumors that MNRR is planning to scrap the units onsite.
Those units have been there for quite some time.
MN definitely will not scrap 2033, as it was the last FL-9 ever mad (originally NH 2059). Both the Danbury Railay Museum & the Smithsonian are both interested in obtaining that unit.
Note - LIRR 301 was originally NH 2000, then MN 2025 before it was converted to AC power for LIRR.
From what I understand, the majority of those units are to be sold to museums. Let's hope that is true, because I personally don't want to see any of those units scrapped.
BTW, NYC-painted FL-9 2012 is currently running the S. Norwalk to Danbury shuttle.
NYC-painted 2013 & CDOT NH-oainted 2006 currently reside at the Danbury Railway Museum. 2006 suffered a fire & is not repairable. 2013 is runnable, but it's inspection has expired.
FP-10 413 is currently being used in work train service with GP-35R 105.
Wow, an LIRR engine that was the original FL-9. I will mention this to a few of my friends, but how did you know about this? I have a picture of the 2000 or 2025 or the so-called LIRR 301 at Port Jeff in 1997 just before the lay up tracks east of Columbia St. were ripped up to make room for the new Port Jeff yard.
Hi folks
Finishing up my stay here in London Town, haven't seen the sun yet except for that first day - anyway, Simon and I spent one more day railfanning and touring; we went to West Ruislip, took a BR train back to Marylebone (pronounced "Marley-bone", they transposed two letters and left it at that), then went back up to Abbey Road so Simon could see it for himself; this time we did find the crossing, right under our noses, took pictures (one tourist was kind enough to take the both of us crossing), went back into town, did a quick lunch and then we were off to Covent Garden to see the LT museum. Spent two hours (and Ģ67.10 on books), I think I have the 1938 Tube stock simulator down pat, I was charging on the curves, stopping at random reds in the tube and braking and stopping at stations perfectly after a little practice. The deadman's feature take getting used to.
Anyway I fly out of here tomorrow at 0940 London time. I may take the "E" back to Jamaica then go on to Babylon. I am taking the flyer Heathrow express out of Paddington.
I'm going to miss London, I miss her already and I haven't left yet.
See you all soon.
MIND THE GAP!
wayne
Oh I forgot - covered Docklands LR today as well as Richmond and High Street Kensington shuttle. We went from Bank to Lewisham and had the RF seat on the way out. Very tight curves coming into South Quay. Impressive office block and connection to Jubilee Line. Building there looks almost exactly like 3 World Financial Centre, complete with the pyramid on top; it is 47 stories high.
wayne
Did you explore the corridors at the Bank station? That's a huge complex. I swear there are miles of hallways. It seemed to take me forever to go from the Docklands platform to the Circle line platform.
The thing with Bank/Monument is that it is a number of stations built into one another. Some connections are therefore very good, others are (at worst) the other end of King William Street.
Bank Station itself (ie the Foyer) is above the Central Line. To the West of this lies the terminus of "the drain" or more officially the Waterloo & City Line.
Returning to the Foyer of Bank, one can go South into the Northern Line Station, which confusingly has direct connecting tunnels to both the Central and the drain. From this point one can go onto the Northern Line platforms, DOWN yet another storey to the Docklands platforms, or through some exceptionally long tunnels to Munument.
These tunnels are actually the remains of yet another station - King William Street, terminus of the City & South London, which rather bizarrely became half of the Northern Line.
Monument itself is straightforward if rather a long way away, as the District and Circle trains share the same 2 platforms. (The problem people have is telling which train goes where!)
So, yes the Docklands is a LONG way down, but it's better than the other connection - a walk along the street between Tower Hill and Tower Gateway. (This ranks with the all time joke on the LU - Hammersmith.)
Actually, Bank/Monument is vastly better than it used to bethe escalator connection that was advertised in the 70s was one escalator, a long walk and a spiral staircase!
They havent taken away the walk, but at least there are escalators on both ends these days!
John
PS: Hammersmith is two stations that have nothing to do with each other. Like, Shepherds Bush, Paddington, and probably more. This is not a surprise to New Yorkers, who know that Wall Street on the 2/3 (or 1/2 these days) is not the same Wall Street on the 4/5, despite the similarity in station names.
Yours in visting London this Christmas.
Yep, DLR is a few levels down, via two very long escalator links. We transferred to DLR from the Cirle Line, having boarded at Temple (C69/77 stock). I had seen the other part of the Bank complex, the Bank (Central) station proper a few days ago; if ever a station needed a gap filler, it is this one (Paddington [Bakerloo] is another, so is Waterloo [Bakerloo]). The phrase "Mind The Gap" takes on a whole new meaning at Bank. If you aren't careful, you'll take a fall or lose a limb. How nobody gets hurt there is beyond me.
We passed STRAND STATION, which is, of course, Aldwych, located on the south side of Strand at Surrey Street. It is a bleak and forbidding sight. It is partially lit by bare flourescent tubes. It is closed off with scissors gates. Sunday night's Evening Journey took me to Holborn, where I was able to see the abandoned shuttle platform that led to this forgotten station. I would suspect that if I were to be able to get down to platform level at Aldwych, I would there find a ghost train of forgotten 1938 or 1959 Tube Stock.
MIND THE GAP
wayne
PS I am home now got in at 1603.
Aldwych is the abandoned spur station on the Piccadlly line, right? I only heard about that station after my trip there. How exactly did you get a look at it?
I think he meant the station house on the Strand. But someplace on the web there is a photo tour of the station itself...
here, in fact
Actually that web site is even better now than I remember it. It has a really neat "Photo Map" at the bottom of the page. Basically a diagram of the station with clickable photo locations... Check it out.
Wow, that web site is cool! Thanx.
We couldn't go in, of course, but we could see the entranceway quite clearly as it was not obstructed.
wayne
Aldwych was only closed within the past ten years or so. It was open the last time I was in London. Now I'm kicking myself for not going there.
September 30, 1994 was the last day of LU service at Aldwych.
It looks like any other tube station, with white tile and dark green borders, according to my LU book of disused stations. The original lettering shows "STRAND". Lighting on the recently-closed platform is flourescent tube.
wayne
1. When is the V starting?
2. Which tunnel is the V running through? I had heard V--53rd.
3. Will the V run all times?
4. What's going to happen to the G?
Thanks in advance. :)
Tony
1. The service changes go into effect on December 16. The V itself will start running on December 17.
2. Yes, 53rd. The F will run through 63rd at all times.
3. Weekdays only.
4. At the north end, it will terminate at Court Square weekdays and run through to Forest Hills nights and weekends. At the south end, rumor has it that it will be extended to Church Avenue on Saturdays only, but nobody seems to know why.
If the G goes to Church Street on weekends, will the F fun express (through lower Bergen Street station?)
No, for two reasons. First, if only the G ran local, then there would be no direct Manhattan service from five stations, one of them a transfer point from the BMT. Second, Bergen lower isn't suitable for use as a regular station in its current form.
If the V were extended to Church, and it picked up the local stations while the F ran express, that would take care of the first problem. It would also introduce a new problem, namely that because of fire damage at the interlocking north of Bergen, it's currently impossible to have some Manhattan trains run express in Brooklyn and others run local.
BTW, I don't think the G will run to Church on Sundays -- only on Saturdays. Strange, no?
BTW, I don't think the G will run to Church on Sundays -- only on Saturdays. Strange, no?
Must be the Seventh Day Adventist Local lol
We all know that Friday is the real 7th day, it was only supplanted from its lastness by the desire of some to start the week from the Day of the Sun.
Ahem? Friday?
Well, since our current calendar IS a contrivance, he can't be right and he can't be wrong. Fortunately we can look forward to the Festivus celebration next month. :)
Saturn is the outermost planet visible to the naked eye, thus the week starts from there.
For the rumor mill. I made up some 46's for service last night and noticed that there is a code on the electronic signs for a V to Church programmed already.
To me this is planning for a service cut on the F in the long term though I am sure that many of you will disagree.
What sort of service cut?
IMO within a pick or two of the next pick the V will be extended to Church at some time and the number of F's will be reduced. This would maintain service to the 71-church heavy ridership corridor.
I think that statis is a waste of good money, the '7' line uses it to keep track of the trains. They are using "creative dispatching " techniques to make sure that they have a good on time performance, they either leave the train numbers off of it so when it gets to the opposite terminal they clock whatever train that they get as that interval. The one person using it cannot read the model board so they have no idea what train is coming or going. I am surprised that the upper echelon of the authority hasn't caught on yet. Are they really that blind?
Good statistics keep things happy, no matter how much fudging it takes to keep the performance figurees rising like the NASDAQ of yore. Just the way things are in political subdivisions. Happy numbers mean no suits for another month. :)
Forget Bergen lower, they redid some of the signals there a month or two ago. You can't get there even if you wanted to from the SB tracks.
Ninth Ave lower will come back before Bergen does.
1) Despite what some people have posted, No official date had been announced. With the WTC the schudule has been pushed back.
2) Probably 53 Street
3) V is said to be running weekdays only. About 5am to 9pm.
4) North bound G service is supposed to terminate at Court Square.And overnight it is to go to Continental Ave.
None of the above is offical and none of it should be taken to be as it will be. You could read something on the MTA website. But I wouldn't believe anything I read until I swipe my metro card at the station.
NYC has the longest commute times on most U.S. cities. Here's a blurb from an AP article
"But when it comes to commuting, New York rules.
Though it has the nation's most extensive transit system, New York City by far also has the longest commute. Dragging up the average is Aaron Engel, 24, who takes an hour and 15 minutes each day to get from outer Queens to downtown Manhattan.
"It's very draining. It's definitely not a pleasant experience," Engel said of his drive-to-the-subway-and-take-two-trains trek. "
Is the TA listening? The trains have GOT to be faster. The WD's have got to go. This is the TA's way of "intimidating" T/O's to go it slow.
T/O's need to be more agressive, and it should be the slow ones, not the fast ones that should get a visit from a road supervisor.
The E/F lines in Queens have too many timers. The Manhattan bridge is so slow it is no faster than the local/tunnel route.
Any opinions here? I haven't been riding the subways as long as most of you, so has anyone else noticed a major system slowdown since like 10 years ago? I wish I could get some old schedules and compare!
As far as the buses go, most NYCT buses run great but perhaps there should be a way for traffic lights to change to green before the buses.
I don't think the Manhattan Bridge tracks were built for speed, they were built to my knowlege to relieve some of the extra "traffic" from the montague street tubes. Take a look at the 7th avenue line from 42-96 in rush hour, a hell hole to be honest. 2 trains are sent down the express (so much for change), during rush hour on my way home from school, I never trust the 2 train, because on almost every one, it's switched from local to express at 72, and I then have to wait for the next 1 to 86. Ahh, the overcrowding!
I haven't done much rush hour riding lately. Are all 1's making local stops, or is it back to the old routine there as well?
In my experience, most 2's run express (even -- perhaps especially -- Sunday mornings, when local service is pretty awful without the 2 to help out). I was somewhat shocked last week when the 2 I was riding southbound into 96th actually pulled in on the local track.
Is there a punch box at 110th? If not, how does the tower at 96th identify an approaching train as 2 (local) or 3 (express)? I'd suggest that this is the source of all the southbound 2 expresses, but the same hypothesis would yield scads of 3 locals, and I don't think I've ever seen a 3 local in my life (except due to GO's and the like).
1's are making local stops, it's rare that they are sent to the express to relieve congestion (it would be kind of senseless to do a switch from local to express at 72, only to go express to local at 96, but it's the MTA). 2's are supposed to go local all the way, but it's too many trains in rush hour so some are sent express. 3's stay on the express. I'm not sure about the punch box, but I'm pretty sure they call in with their radio.
No, I meant express on the local, like 1's were so fond of doing before 9/11.
The only train with decent speed I was on today was the 7. I rode the N from Union Square (had to wait awhile)to 8th ave Brooklyn. Even though there were no trains ahead of us, the T/O was way too slow. Waited till signals turned green about 4 car lengths ahead of the cab. It was an R32 BTW. Then outside of 36th a W is sitting in the station so we wait about 5 minutes for it to leave. Finally I get to 8th ave almost an hour after I left Union Square.
Going back I took an N from 8th to New U. where I went upstairs and waited another 10 minutes for the W train to Manhattan. (I could've taken the Manhattan bound N but the 86th bound came first).
It was a very slow ride across the bridge. First we were held after Dekalb after a Q was let in front of us, then we stopped for 2 minutes about 3 times on the bridge. It took a little over 15 minutes to get from Pacific to Canal. Then the slowdown on that curve after Canal. I was glad to get off that lumbering W train and get the 7, which was very fast to Flushing. But the BMT is real slow, I think I'm gonna start avoiding it when I can, especially the Manhattan bridge. If you are going anywhere along the N or R line in Brooklyn you are better off taking those trains, because the Q and W don't save anything.
I swear lately the subway is so slow the Cummins Orions LI Bus has seem pretty fast to me.
Part of it are the timers, but also part is that there are many congested lines, and people are stupid. Instead of realizing that "holy sh!t, if I let this train leave now, another one will be here in 1 minute", they try to fit in the door for 3 minutes, not only holding up that train, but also making it so that by the time the next train arrives, enough people will be trying to get on that it'll be delayed also.
I see this happen on Lexington all the time. When will people learn that their 30 seconds of time is less important than the total accumulation of thousands of minutes that each person on that train and all the trains behind it will be late, just to squeeze in? Man get the hell out the door.
"I see this happen on Lexington all the time. When will people learn that their 30 seconds of time is less important than the total accumulation of thousands of minutes that each person on that train and all the trains behind it will be late, just to squeeze in? Man get the hell out the door"
Look at it this way, assume there are 1,000 people on the train and that -- on average -- their time is worth $10 per hour (on a crowded Lex train both of those numbers are probably low). If the train gets held up for a minute, that's 1,000 minutes or about 16.5 hours. So the people on the train collectively lose $165 each time this occurs. Now multiply that by the number of stops along the line where this happens and then again by the number of trains on which this happens and you start to get a value of lost wages/free time caused by these jokers who hold the doors.
CG
Look at it this way, assume there are 1,000 people on the train and that -- on average -- their time is worth $10 per hour (on a crowded Lex train both of those numbers are probably low). If the train gets held up for a minute, that's 1,000 minutes or about 16.5 hours. So the people on the train collectively lose $165 each time this occurs. Now multiply that by the number of stops along the line where this happens and then again by the number of trains on which this happens and you start to get a value of lost wages/free time caused by these jokers who hold the doors.
Yeah, but this cuts both ways. If I'm paid $10/hour, then if I have to wait 6 minutes for another train, that's a dollar ... added to my $1.50 fare. Incentive for me to squeeze in, at no penalty to me personally.
I'm not saying I do this (much) but it's a sort of lowkey version of the classic "Tragedy of the Commons," where there's no disincentive to do something in your own interest that causes much greater harm to much greater numbers of people.
Now if the cops started handing out $50 tickets to people who held the doors (HA!), that might be an incentive to change behavior. Til then, there'll always be some people who will do it -- regardless of glares from the rest of the train.
But still, some people are either bold or dense anyway. Yesterday on the #2 at 3rd Av/149th St, this guy held on the door for about 20 seconds while his buddy was stuck at the turnstiles doing God-knows-what. This, while a transit cop was in the same car yelling at him to let go of the door.
My theory: Rush hours, the C/R doesn't need to wait, we do. The next train isn't too far away. When the trains are infrequent, add some built in time at the end of the schedule so the C/R can wait for stragglers. Some NYC lines only come once in a blue moon outside of rush hours, like the A, J, N, and R.
What about blaming yourself?
What about people holding doors?
What about the 50 people that have to exit the last door of the car because it opens up in front of the exculator??
What about the people that stand in the door because it is just a great place to ride and don't move out of the way if it is not their station stop??
Definately a contribution. Do we need "pushers" like they have in asian countries to move people along?
I have to say though I've been on many trains that just creep, and that is not during the rush hour. Either the T/O is a slowpoke or the train has a bunch of dead motors. For instance today on the N, we crept along at no more than 25mph all the way from Manhattan to Brooklyn. Even with clear signals ahead.
As far as the buses go, most NYCT buses run great but perhaps there should be a way for traffic lights to change to green
before the buses.
In Philly we have a really high-tech system. The SEPTA buses just run the red lights!
:)
Mark
Sure NY has one of the most extensive mass transit systems in the country, but proportional to its commuting population, it needs to be WAY more extensive. As for the system slowdown, chalk that up to the MTA wanting to make the system safer after the Willy B. crash, which was actually more because the T/O on that J train slept on the controller (he should never have gotten that assignment, IMO). Re-configuring trains to make them slower, putting timers on stretches that trains used to navigate with ease for decades, and OH THOSE WONDERFUL WD's. All for our safety (the sarcasm is intended; the subway is still a trip into oblivion in my view, so Jay St. and Madison Av. might as well try and make said trip as quick as possible.
Manhattan crosstown buses are just awful. (In September I tried to ride an M86 from Broadway to Lex. It took a good 30 minutes just to get to Central Park West. I stayed on through the park and walked from 5th. This wasn't even rush hour -- this was about 2:00 on a Friday afternoon.) What's needed first of all is an absolute ban on double parking on major crosstown streets -- even an occasional double-parked car or truck reduces the street's capacity to one lane in each direction, which is just not enough. If that doesn't do the trick, exclusive bus lanes should be considered.
Another problem is the use of artics. I takes forever to for those crowds to board. On M23 there are constanly double parked school buses between 2nd and Park, when the line had regular buses, it was easyer for them to navigate.
Arti
The problem isn't in the artics themselves but in the service reduction that comes along with them. I used to be a daily M18 rider (before it became the M86) and boarding took a fraction of the time it takes now.
The problem isn't in the artics themselves but in the service reduction that comes along with them. I used to be a daily M18 rider (before it became the M86) and boarding took a fraction of the time it takes now.
Hear, hear. It's a self-perpetuating problem: Bigger buses means TA thinks it can run fewer for same # of riders, but they wait longer, take longer to board ... and articulateds are slower in traffic as the drivers are more cautious.
Now, back to SUBtalk ....
I am not a big fan of the artics. I think the TA was just trying to save money by cutting bus service but running bigger buses. All adds up to a slower ride.
I almost beat the M79 by walking from CPW to 3rd Avenue. It only beat me because of the park. I was neck and neck with the bus after the one I used as my marker (it was about to cross Columbus when I started) from 5th to 3rd. Coincidentally, that day, an article ran with a race from the west side to the east side. The walker won by a minute.
THe double parking is a serious problem all over the city. It creates traffic jams and blocks bus stops. I think the NYPD needs to adopt a "Zero tolerance" for double parking. First time fine $100. Second time $1000. Third time a license suspension.
I used to live in Richmond VA, and there they had streets where no parking was alowed in the rush hour direction. At 4pm you had a street full of cars. At 4:10, you had a street full of tow trucks. At 4:30 you had another lane of traffic. Parking during street cleaning was a guaranteed tow. Plus you had to pay your ticket, or you didn't get your car back!
I've always been astounded at how few tow trucks there are in NYC. I think only the NYPD is allowed to tow. I think that in Richmond, VA the police pay independant towing companies per car they bring in. The only problem is the possibility of fraud. But make each tow truck driver carry a digicam, and they can document each tow. Soon the only problem with traffic will be the number of tow trucks on the street, and the extra number of cabs needed to drive people to the nearest municipal garage.
License suspension is no punishment.
All double-parked cars should be towed.
What about just lazy-a**ed people who take the crosstown bus for 2 stops and get off? Or the people that get on for one stop AND scramble for a seat (true for subways as well). So what if you have a free transfer? You pay for it by gaining 10 pounds.
What about just lazy-a**ed people who take the crosstown bus for 2 stops and get off? Or the people that get on for one stop AND scramble for a seat (true for subways as well). So what if you have a free transfer? You pay for it by gaining 10 pounds.
And your point is ...?
What about just lazy-a**ed people who take the crosstown bus for 2 stops and get off?
What about people who ride from 5th to CPW? That's two stops on the M79 and M86. One on the other four cross-park routes.
IINM, all the cross-park crosstowns have official mid-park stops, not just the M79 and M86. They're almost never used.
What's in the middle of the park on the 65th or 97th Street transverses?
>>> What's in the middle of the park on the 65th or 97th Street transverses? <<<
The Park. :-)
Tom
The average for NYC is only 39 minutes?! i have a good hour and a half from sunnyside to work up in riverdale. shit, 39 minutes is great!
I recently received a copy of of the "Little Red Book" of authorized trainman announcements for the LIRR. This brings to mind a question I've been meaning to ask my RTO counterparts. For a while now, crews have been making an announcement that goes something like this, "Attention ladies and gentlemen, we are being held here by local supervision. We should be moving shortly." My question is, is this the authorized announcement? To me, it always sounds like "don't blame us." I would perfer something like "We're being held to schedule." or "We're being held for a conection."
Steve, I'm with you. I use either of the latter announcements, depending on the situation. I don't start that 'pass the buck' crap. Just makes things worse.
All the blabbing in the other post and I didn't even answer your question. No the 'local supervision' bit is NOT the authorized announcement. I don't have my 'Blue Book' handy, but IIRC, it goes something like: 'We're being held here by the train dispatcher, please be patient'. IMO, a variation of 'local supervision'. I still use the other two announcements you mention, it clarifies things and makes my life easier.
Thanks to you and the others wh clarified this for me.
Official blue book says "we're being held here by the trains dispatcher" I think most crews stick with this announcement due to the uncertainty of why you are being held.ex.your arrive at pacific st 5 min late holding lights are on then 2 min later a train rolls in for a connection.Unless there is a real alert tower/disp. on duty,they rarely tell you why you are being held.
If you're running late and they put holding lights on you, you should immediately get on the radio and ask why. Sometimes, they think you are your follower, making it look like you're early.
According to the TA announcement "Blue Book", the official announcement to be used when being held in a ststion is "Ladies & Gentlemen this is your Conductor. We are being held here by the Train Dispatcher. We should be moving shortly" (give or take a word).
Steve, when I make my announcements, I say the same thing, except I say station supervision, not local supervision.
If I happen to know I'm being held because I'm running hot (ahead of schedule), then I'll say something like, "Ladies and gentlemen, at this time we're being held here in the Jay Street Station until our scheduled departure time. Please be patient."
If I know it's to make a connection, I'll say something like, "Ladies and gentlemen, at this time we're being held in the Jay Street Station, possibly to make a connection with an arriving F. We should be moving shortly."
If I'm held for more than a minute or two and I'm not sure why I'm being held, I'll call the tower to find out why. Then I'll relay the information on to the passengers.
Road Dogg ... if ONLY more TA staff followed your example. [sigh]
Thanks for the compliment, JV. Just trying to do my job as efficently as possible. :-)
How about this one:
"Ladies and gentlemen, we are being held in the station because some idiot can't find the switch to turn off the holding lights. As a result, we will probably bypass your station to make up for lost time."
I actually have used that announcement from time to time. But the TA thought I could have come up with an announcement that's a little better. So they gave me three days in the street to think about it. LOL
"We are being held here by order of supervision. We expect to be moving shortly." Some body bitches, I say: "just following orders".
Working the B recently, I requested my conductors use the announcement, before leaving Grand Street, "the next scheduled stop is Pacific Street". When we stop at Dekalb because the B2 didn't bother to communicate with the B1 to figure out that our train would in fact stop at Dekalb, we are making an "unscheduled" stop there.
That is exactly I asked my conductor to do last pick when I was on the E. Northbound (due east) leaving Continental, you cannot see the homeball at 75th Ave. which leaves you on the express track or crosses you to the local. Continental never tells you if you are going to do something different than scheduled since their priority is the G/R and the passengers won't get on their butt if the E conductor gave out wrong information.
Perhaps when you become a train dispatcher that announcement might be appropriate, david. Until then, my question was addressed tot he many train crew members that post here. Besides, did your mother not ever teach you that if you have nothing nice to say .................? have a nice holiday.
The very reason why canned announcements are carefully chosen on the R142 TODs selection panel. A Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. Peter
You're right. The C/R's shouldn't warn passengers in advance about bypassed stations. I apologize for my suggestion.
Leave us not act like a child, david. You are quite aware that I was referring to your use of the term "idiot". The remark was inappropriate, especially since you've never done the job. There are dozens of reasons why a train may be held in a station. Some times the crew is not aware of the reason because their radio is off or in a dead-spot or they are simply not listening. The tower may also be too busy dealing with an emergency elsewhere to give the crews constant updates. The fact is, I've seen many times where a tower has made less than a prudent call but I've seen just as many times where the crew has jumped to the wrong conclusion based on less than all the facts. I have no problem with a subordinate disagrees with a decision I've made as long as it's done respectfully. Publicly referring to a supervisor as an idiot (especially over the PA of a train) is an act of insubordination and should be dealt with appropriately.
Of course there are many reasons to hold a train.
But sometimes there is no reason to hold a train, yet the holding lights remain on. Usually the passengers have no way of knowing. Sometimes they do. Like the time (on 9/3; I posted about it that evening) that a 1 was held at 42nd. A 3 pulled in across the platform, but 3's that weekend were entering service at 42nd, so the connection wasn't the reason to be held. Once the 1 pulled out, it ran express (as if the empty 3 wasn't doing a good enough job), so scheduling or congestion ahead wasn't the reason to be held. Do you have any other ideas why that train might have been held?
I apologize. The individual who failed to turn off the holding lights might have not been an idiot. He might have simply been asleep.
Incidentally, I spell my first name with a capital letter.
Sorry David. Lower case letters are used to emphasize the same disrespect you show transit managers and supervisors. Then again, I suspect you, being a really bright guy, already realized that.
To answer your question, no - I have no other thoughts as to what happened on 9/3 on the 7th Ave. line. However, when i want to know why or what, I call the TA and ask. I'm quite sure that they would give you the same courteous followup that they give me.
I think that your use of the word 'Superintendent' in front of your name might help just a little in getting a courteous answer. ther have been a few times when I have received downright nasty replies to questions when prefacing my name with 'Train Operator'. I would hate to think of the response if David uses 'Customer'.
Perhaps that's true. I would hope not. I have frequentlyt had to respond to queries that were fowarded to me from the good folks in public relations. I always try to give thorough and courteous answers. I will tell you that the title of Superintendent carried no weight when my brother was having trouble with his paratransit service. The DOB seems to have a certain amount of dislike for DOS people.
I'm wondering what type of negative changes we have in store between the DOS and DOB departments now that the TA is beginning the motion of restructuring DOB with the Regional Bus Company they won from the old TWU regime.
TrainDude will slam me with 'Foot in mouth disease/needs R142 duct tape' but I have to say it and I know MY classmates of my age concur: 'Touissant doesn't represent us....New Directions???' The union that represented me twenty five years ago destroyed the best job I ever had. My buddy worked for Grumman for 26 years. TA welcomed us and gave us a new home. Count us absent December 1st. Read into this: 'Lincoln freed the slaves and you're not free yet.'
We're free and we'll stick out all the restructuring deals and TWU kiss-ups cuz we like this work and we like the people we work with and we like the management and we're happy that TA wants us and has made us welcome. Stop sticking us on the Redbird training, let us burn ourselves out resonsibly on new tech inspections and INJECT THE LOGIC PROBE!!!!!!!!!! I'll apply the R142 duct tape to myself after all external modules have been properly secured under supervision. CI Peter, CED
On the contrary, Peter. I try to stay away from intra-union politics. However, many feel the way you do. I'm hardly impressed with the DCE contingent.
Thankyou my friend.
That did happen to me. The tower denied it and banged me in for improper operation. That is what I like about transit one big happy family.
Wow, that makes two of you.
Thank you for the honesty.
You say the tower banged you in for improper operation. Who gets to bang the tower in for improper operation? As far as I can tell, the tower is usually to blame for scheduling problems.
It was a very popular tower operator and they tried to screw me all the way up the line that night with improper operation. Fortunately my C/R was very smart and got two crews to back me up and call control directly on the phone and either the whole thing never happened or they blamed signals.
A wise man knows that if he's going to pull the tail of the tiger, he should have a plan for when the tiger turns around.......
I did not make a goofy announcement, I tried to call like a good boy.
If it happened again I even have a cell phone now.
My mistake. But if you look back in this thread, you responded to Mr. Greenburgs suggestion that the announcement refer to the dispatcher as an idiot.
Sorry, the dispatcher/tower WAS an idiot, I limit those opinions to here and crew rooms.
As I said in a previous post, a TSS from Queens was suspended, partially for (libelous) comments made on Subtalk. "Conduct unbecoming" extends to off-duty activities.
Calling someone an idiot is not libelous speech. (I don't know what the TSS from Queens said.) Anyone who would prefer not to be called an idiot should be careful not to act like an idiot. I'd say that someone who needlessly delays a trainload of passengers by forgetting to turn off the holding lights is an idiot.
I'm afraid you missed the sarcasm in my initial post to this thread.
My name is Greenberger. It appears at the top of each of my posts.
Let's end this. I didn't say calling someone an idiot was libelous. I said in one post that an RTO employee publicly referring to a supervisor as an idiot was insubordination. In an other post I stated that a TA employee was suspended - in part for statements he made onsubtalk that were considered libelous. You seem to have as much trouble with content as I have with your name. Let's just agree to disagree. private battles bore everyone - especially me.
So the guy forgot to turn off the holding lights! Myabe he was distracted by a phone call from a sup't. Everybody makes a mistake once in a while, no body is perfect. Now when a t/o isn't perfect......
I'll just point out that, a few months ago, when a poster here walked through an open, unmarked gate at a station he was unfamiliar with, he was fined for fare evasion and was reprimanded by many here. Apparently some mistakes are more forgivable than others.
"Apparently some mistakes are more forgivable than others."
Alas, David, you've finally said something that I find no trouble agreeing with.
>>> Calling someone an idiot is not libelous speech <<<
Really? You live in a unique jurisdiction then. If the person does not really have an IQ in the idiot range, calling him an idiot in writing is libel on its face. OTOH writing that someone is acting like an idiot would not be libel.
Of course technically calling anyone anything in speech is not libelous, but slanderous. Slander is defamation by spoken word, libel deals with the written word, and a posting on the internet is writing, so libel does apply.
Tom
Point is moot. Mr. Greenberger got it wrong again. The TSS was suspended PARTIALLY because of statements made on sutalk. It had nothing to do with the term, "idiot". That term was used, inappropriately in my opinion, to describe a hypothetical person, doing a job that mr. Greenberger has no clue about. The two issues were unrelated otherwise.
You raise an interesting point, though. If a person is called an idiot, and should it get that far, would the legal system view the word in the strictly literal sense or in it's common usage? Ditto, the term "asshole". If we call a person an asshole, are we to be held to the literal term or to the comonly accepted definition? This could almost take the fun out of name calling.
Amen TrainDude. 'TacoBell' used a jumper cord instead of a five bulb paddle for a Redbird propulsion/sequence test. He is not an idiot or an asshole...just someone you have to watch your back for. Peter
five bulb paddle = bank of lamps
5 @125V in series = 600V, eh TD?
Just like on the old streetcars.
Whoops, my sliderule slipped.
5 @120V in series = 600V, eh TD?
Just like on the old streetcars.
If one of the bulbs is burned out, then none of them will light?
That's right! And you have to keep on swappin' until you find the right one.
Actually, it was pretty easy to cheat with the lamp poles. With a 600 volt arc when the filament went, they were usually a lot blacker inside than your ordinary bulb ... and amazingly usually second in from either end. :)
I guess five isn't so bad. I can remember Christmas light strings where when one bulb went out all eight lights on the string went out, it was a problem finding the bad bulb, especially if the string was already on the tree. Of course I was working with only 120v, not 600v.
Hmmm, thread drift. I jumped in expecting to find a bunch
of traction name calling, like "he's one filament short of
a 5-bulb cluster".
Thread drift in this direction is GOOD. Away from Off-Topic and towards On-Topic. But it's just about as rare as a derailed trolley drifting back onto the track :-(
Taco Bell is really a nice guy and he learned his lesson without injury. Doin Redbird carbody inspection today and after tingling 456v (measured) on removed vent motor brush holders with the breaker off (I disconnected the bug), I reminded myself that the unlit head-on display bulbs are wired in series with 600v/5 bulbs with local/express being toggled by the motormans switch. I see that all of the new Alstom propulsion posters in 239th have a voltmeter in each picture as a reminder of safety but nobody ever checks with a meter before poking about. Peter
>>> would the legal system view the word in the strictly literal sense or in it's common usage? <<<
I am not sure what the common usage for "idiot" is, as opposed to the literal sense. I do see the word being misused, particularly on SubTalk, to mean someone the writer dislikes regardless of their intelligence level. Being labeled an idiot at least denotes sub normal intelligence which is defamatory to anyone with normal or above normal intelligence even if the specific IQ range which defines an idiot is not intended. One of the reasons libel is considered more serious than slander is that the written word is so much more permanent than the spoken word. If I were applying for a job which required intelligence, I would not want a potential employer to see something written several years ago that stated I was an idiot.
>>> If we call a person an asshole, are we to be held to the literal term or to the comonly
accepted definition? <<<
In the case of calling someone an "asshole" it cannot be taken literally because it refers to part of the anatomy rather than a whole person, and therefore no one could believe it was being used literally. It still could be considered defamatory, and therefore actionable when used in its slang sense. Of course, many of the things for which a lawsuit could be brought never go to court because the damages are too small to be worth prosecuting.
Tom
If we call a person an asshole, are we to be held to the literal term or to the comonly accepted definition?
In the case of calling someone an "asshole" it cannot be taken literally because it refers to part of the anatomy rather than a whole person, and therefore no one could believe it was being used literally. It still could be considered defamatory, and therefore actionable when used in its slang sense. Of course, many of the things for which a lawsuit could be brought never go to court because the damages are too small to be worth prosecuting.
I believe that the m.f. and c.s. terms have been considered non-defamatory in many legal forums. Although both terms obviously have literal meanings, the legal system recognizes that they are almost always used in a figurative manner, as terms of derision rather than description.
>>> I believe that the m.f. and c.s. terms have been considered non-defamatory in many legal forums <<<
Probably true when used as an expletive. But someone who wrote something accusing another of either act might have some legal problems.
Tom
As someone who has benn called an "asshole" on this Board, I can state that generally, commonly used epithets (bad names) are not given their literal meaning by the legal system. Thus, you can call someone an idiot even if he is a certified genius, and not be sued for libel.
That's really a relief to know.
I'm new to the TA and maybe I have a big mouth but I am very careful of where and how I apply critiscism. I have to deal directly with inspection of the R142s and in the short time I have been around...I am qualified...and got chewed out by three foreman and one dep sup for accepting 'training' after doing inspections of carbody, undercar and propulsion. You do what you are told and CYA D. Period. TA was 'forced' to accept R142/R142A trainsets....when more than half of them are out of service the managers look for assignments to keep us busy. I and my guys are always thankful for the work...I accept all assignments with a smile and a thankyou.
As for calling anyone an idiot, THAT is a situation which one must CYA D to be kept silent. I did have a problem I related to a foreman with another foreman...it had to do with my inability to understand more than fourty percent of what he said to me...language problems...the foreman wanted a write-up...I'm old enough to say drop it. We had an interesting conversation about the history of the TA and its being a home for immigrants.
Someone had an altercation at 239th with offensive language and went to management...what a big stink. Union rep posted that these matters should be brought to him first. I agree. TrainDude taught me an important lesson: 'Assume all fish are sharks.' Cover Your ASS Dummy....CYA D....IS the rule. Peter
Peter, you almost got it right. "Assume all unidentified fish are sharks." Rule #2 is "When swimming with unidentified fish, never bleed."
Thankyou my friend. 'ToughGuy' cleanser works miracles. Peter
Yikes, I did not know that. Especially since you and Mr. Let Them Eat Cake were on my killfile, plus I don't read all the posts.
It must have been bad to get removed, one of the school car TSSes thought he was the sargent in Full Metal Jacket and called for people by saying "Hey Fat Boy" and he is still walking around. Even Nat Ford will take a bald joke from a stranger with good humor.
The Announcement should be we are being held in the station by the Train Dispatcher. Sometimes on the No.1 Line Utica has a habit of holding uptown trains at Nostrand Ave so I just use the Red Signal announcement which is Train Traffic Ahead. Where not suppose to say red signals.
In retrospect, I suppose that I could have gotten a copy of the 'Blue Book' and checked fort he authorized announcements but we all know how often those things change. What I was really asking was whether the tone of the announcements were designed to put the burden for delays on supervision or on the railroad.
For example, I think it sounds better to say that we are being held at 59th St. because of congestion ahead rather than because of supervision. My feeling is one might be easier to understand and will cause less frustration and anger on the part of the rider.
Again, I'm not looking to change the system - yet. What I have noticed is the lack of uniformity in the tone of the on-board announcements. I am just trying to determine if crws are ad-libbing or not and if those 'blaming' local supervision were doing so as aform of organized protest or not.
>>>>>>>>>>I think it sounds better to say that we are being held at 59th St. because of congestion ahead rather than because of supervision.
The TA tells us to NEVER use the word "congestion". Instead, they want us to say "a train ahead of us". And instead of "holding lights", the TA wants "held by the train dispatcher".
The blue book was written by the world famous Dr.Diekman at Jay St. It's a piece of s*it, but whattya gonna do. They want it, so you give it.
And don't get me started on the dedicated announcer program. Those announcements written by the TA for them are totally pathetic. Go to any other subway/rail system and they give you detailed information on the loudspeakers, here it's HALF-ASSED.
Dr. Diekman is a great motivational speaker - although he was noticably absent this year from our annual managerial conferrence. Instead we were treated to a speech by fromer NY Jet, Dave Herman. However, not withstanding Mr. Diekman's great ability to motivate, I don't feel that his talents are being properly utilized in this case. Customers don't necessarilly want to motivated - just informed.
Dr. John Diekman is no longer an employee of NYC Transit. I believe he went to the Long Island Rail Road.
David
Thanks -"To each according to their need?"
Good. Too bad his crapola announcements stayed behind.
Have faith, bro ... political appointees may come and go but the line item remains. :)
Yes he did. He gave a great speech during my graduation day for Assistant Conductor's. The man can really giove a great speech.
You're right. His efforts "sanitized" the announcements and
removed useful information. I want to know what the problem
is, where it is, and what the estimated time to resolution will
be, realistically. These standardized announcements have that
insincere, plastic, useless quality. Reminds me of "your call
is important to us. All representatives are busy...."
>The TA tells us to NEVER use the word "congestion".
I must have been on the Rocky Horror Picture Train but the last time I heard that as a passenger someone yelled "Well blow your fucking nose and lets get out of here".
Now THAT'S the subway *I* remember. :)
Where the #%#$% are you posting from? I saw you operating a few hours ago didn't I? Do you have the Win44 where you can send email from the cab?
Laptop. Cell phone. Elevated line. BIE. :)
I rigged the door enabler to send out messages via the internet. You push the left platform to shift, the right platform for caps lock, and you hit the horn to send. Now if I can find a way to type, maybe the interior lights buttons can be rigged for morse code.
BTW, that wasn't me that you saw. I started work today at 10 am and had the prior 2 days off.
I'd bet you type with your feet.
Zman rocks
He ROLLS too ... I've seen it. Ain't pretty. Word. :)
Nah maybe after a few years in the yards he might. Two weeks off the road and I am packing it on.
Dr. Diekman's problem is what is wrong with most TA bureaucrats: either they never went down the road as a t/o or c/r or they forgot what it was like to experience it. In the case of the latter, most of these guys hardly got their feet wet becuse they moved up so quickly. Diekman never got spat in the face or on the windshield, never had objects flung at him by a passenger and never was called an ass**** or got the finger because someone missed a train. He doesn't have a clue about passenger behavior. It is so easy to tell people how to be nicey nice, but how can one be nicey nice when some of the very people you serve not only disrespect you for doing your job but are out to injure you?
"Touchy feely" is the HALLMARK of "good government" these days in every agency everywhere. You know you're getting somewhere when you get rounded up into an auditorium for the "sexual harassment" tape and discussion followup. Dr Dick's ministrations are merely part of the sideshow, exit left to funway ... the problem is way too many supervisors without enough workload to go around. As a result, entire study groups get a corner office. :)
>>Go to any other subway/rail
system and they give you detailed information on the
loudspeakers, here it's HALF-ASSED.<<
NOT TRUE SF MUNI in the Metro Subway behaves as if still in the nineteeth century. IF the operator gives ANY info, it is minimalist. This in a system with onboard radio, ATCS etc. AND the booth clerks are even less useful. Apparently central never tells them anything.
Just finished the 3 day R142 class (lucky me with previous OJT!) Out looking for the 'canned announcement' list. It's still TAs policy to leave a lot off the TOD and make announcements 'under supervision.' One thing to consider: it is very easy to touch the TOD screen by error and come up with something unwanted...messages are not instant and are heard thirty seconds later. Peter
messages are not instant and are heard thirty seconds later.
Actually that's a GOOD thing - gives the conductor time to bail out of the cab and hide before the flying vegetables hit. :)
I don't think the R-142 announcements are compliant with the TA's current policy. If nothing else, transfers are announced while the train is still in motion and not while in the station with the doors open.
Just wait ... soon, everyone will start sounding like the automated R-142 announcements ....
--Mark
The canned messages are very limited in number, already out of date and might be punched up prematurely because of the annoying delay. There's a gob of em missing like when the train goes 'skip stop.' The less the public knows.........is not good. One thing I know for sure: software revisions of all types are so numerous that we have been instructed to check and note e v e r y t h i n g ! The TAs current policy is in the capable hands of the C/R who has the last 'say.' I just check the buttons. Peter
There is nothing wrong with that it is what you are supposed to do.
C/Rs don't do it because on older trains you can't always hear them.
Oh, are we saying that Inspection doesn't get the PA fixed??? C/Rs should try yelling louder with their lips upon the comm. Peter
I thought -- and I might be wrong -- that the current policy is that station and transfer announcements are to be made in the station with the doors open. They may also be made while the train is approaching the station, but they then must be repeated in the station. In my experience, very few C/R's announce the station before stopping, and the few who do usually (but not always) repeat the information after the doors have opened. Frankly, I hope I'm wrong.
Wouldn't it make the best of sense to make an announcement at the station with the doors open on an R142 whose external speakers are operational only when selected and at least one door is open in each car??? 'This is a #_____ train to _____ making _____ stops." To SubTalkers who think they heard external announcements on the R142: they did IF the doors were open and the right button was pushed. Hey, I don't know what line goes where AND I appreciate the info. Peter
Yes, for the train identification announcement.
I was referring to the station identification and transfer announcement. Passengers on the platform presumably know where they are and large colored bullets direct them to transfers. IMO, it generally makes more sense to make this sort of announcement before the train stops, unless the train is noisy; I'd be inclined to leave such a determination up to the C/R.
I agree. The best subway in the best city is getting the best C/Rs. At least, it seems to me because of the details that the new ones make an effort to put through...until they shuffle. Peter
Policy says that announcements can be said in between stations, not in the process of entering them, for entering stations is when the conductor is to be observing for the indication board. Between stations I use "Ladies & gentilemen, at the next station stop, tranfers will be available for the (which ever trains). Once again this is a (which ever borough) bound (which ever) train." I don't say the station stop because in rule a conductor is to refrain from constantly saying the next station name (ex. "42nd Street is the next station stop, Transfer for (whichever) train(s). 42nd Street next."
Repition makes for excessive use of the air, and they stress due to quality of life on the train...(in other words a quieter ride...HAH!! Quality of life lol) excessive usage of the air is forbidden as not to impede on a customer's right to a quiet ride. I find the more info, the more the people appreciate it. I get praise all the time from the customers. So for the most part the enroute announcement comment is correct, and I do it myself, but only between stations, and not entering them, and I announce the station name and transfers again if schedule time allows for it ONLY WHILE IN THE STATION. During G.O.s (and dammit there sure are A LOT!! lol) enroute announcements are the key to conveying timely information.
Thank you for the correction. It appears I misunderstood or was misinformed.
It looks like your announcements are clear and complete. From your handle, can I take it that you work the A?
I agree that special care is necessary on GO's. Unfortunately, many C/R's are unaware of GO's on other lines. (A few weeks ago I was offered a transfer to the 7 at Times Square when the 7 wasn't running in Manhattan.) When trains are rerouted via the express track (on the A, I suppose, this issue only comes up at night), do you explicitly tell passengers whether all trains are running express? Many C/R's, in my experience, do not, and I have a feeling that the issue simply hasn't occurred to most of them. Announcements like "All southbound trains are running express to Foo Street. Passengers for local stations, please remain on this train to Foo Street, where you may transfer to a northbound train making all local stops" or "Due to (whatever), this train will be running express to Foo Street. Passengers for (insert station names), please wait here for the next train, which is scheduled to make all stops" (modify the wording as necessary to comply with regulations) make a big difference. I bring this up only because many otherwise excellent C/R's don't bother with this, and I'd like to suggest it to you in case you don't do it already.
Nope I am right, page 5 of Blue Book
Much to my delight, I stand corrected. Sit, rather.
Bulletin No. 131-00
States Route cycle announcements must be made in the station with the doors open NOT while the train is moving.
Here are the routine cycle announcments with the train in the station with doors open.
- Station Identication Ex. "This is 168 Street"
- Transfer Options Ex. "Transfer is available to the A or C Trains"
- Train Id Ex. "This is a Brooklyn bound No.1 Train"
- Next Stop Ex. "Next stop is 157 Street"
- Closing door announcment Ex. "Stand clear of the closing doors please"
I am pretty sure there was another bulletin that said use the Blue book in the last few weeks.
Nope I checked the updated Bulletin 166-01 Nov. 19, 2001 Reminding all Conductors must make the Routine cycle announcements when the train is in the station with doors open. Conductor must not make announcments when the train is in motion.
Yep, I looked and saw it last night, too.
I don't think the R-142 announcements are compliant with the TA's current policy.
Nor are they compliant with common sense, as when the automated announcement for Park Place says there's a transfer to PATH.
AAS isn't always in sync with trackage or reality
The current policy of C/R's making announcements while the train is in the station was put in place because C/R's were opening the doors prematurely. e.g. C/R making announcements T/O stops for red signal C/R opens doors no platform
I'm afraid I don't see the connection. As long as the C/R doesn't distract himself making announcements when he should be looking for the board, what's the problem? Certainly in some cases, like long express runs, the C/R can announce the upcoming station as soon as the train starts moving and still have lots of time to spare before it reaches the station.
But rules are rules. If I were offered my choice of one TA rule to be removed from the books, this would not be it.
Well ... dunno if you ever did conductor work where there's a PA, but instead of pooking out the window, you are actually kissing a hole in the bulkhead while pushing button(s) at the same time. Since you're too occupied doing your official ditty (which must be as precise as a wedding ceremony apparently) as well as wondering whose lips may have been kissing that orifice before you, saluting the stripes drops back as a priority. I can see the problem.
I suggest the R1/9 solution. Strap the conductor outside the car, remove the PA system and let the geese ask each other where the train is. It'd be like a nostalgia train EVERY day. :)
Me? Conductor work? I don't think I've ever set foot inside a cab. (No, silly, not a taxi!)
But my point was that, until the train is approaching the next station, the board needn't be on the C/R's mind. That might be a problem between Beverly and Cortelyou, but in most of the system there's more than enough time between stations to make announcements.
Heh. They have CABS in taxis? Silly me thinking they just had a seat, a steering wheel, a meter and this stained plastic something or other. Live and loin. :)
Current day conductors will probably tell you the same thing - the PA's were never known for being like a podium mic - you have to put your LIPS on the hole there if you want to be heard out there and lips also serve to seal the microphone so that you hear "grshfn blvk cromspoot diggy, bing bong" near or in stations. It takes very special talent to be able to do that on the job and then go home and say "hiya" without getting confused.
But you're staring at a bulkhead, not out the veranda and given that the buttons for the PA are on the same panel as the buttons for the doors, I could actually see a "happy fingers" situation if you can't feel braille. And you DEFINITELY want to be looking out for those jailbars, since if they whiz by your window and you ain't looking, you might be fighting with your motorman if he ain't fast enough hitting the DCO relays when he blows past your spot.
If you get a chance, and the cab door's open, grab a seat and watch what the guy/gal in the monkeysuit has to do for his/her biweekly nut. :)
Heh. They have CABS in taxis? Silly me thinking they just had a seat, a steering wheel, a meter and this stained plastic something or other. Live and loin. :)
Well, taxis aren't entirely unlike subways. They both have automated announcements, for one thing. They both have horns. They also both have the uncanny tendency to carry the passenger beyond his intended point of departure with no warning. There are some differences, however. For instance, subways stop for red signals.
Current day conductors will probably tell you the same thing - the PA's were never known for being like a podium mic - you have to put your LIPS on the hole there if you want to be heard out there and lips also serve to seal the microphone so that you hear "grshfn blvk cromspoot diggy, bing bong" near or in stations. It takes very special talent to be able to do that on the job and then go home and say "hiya" without getting confused. :)
Seriously, train announcements have gotten much, much clearer over the past ten years. The biggest problem is the persistent hum on some of the B Division equipment (the R-40 and R-68 come to mind -- poor Q). Station announcements are a different story entirely.
But you're staring at a bulkhead, not out the veranda and given that the buttons for the PA are on the same panel as the buttons for the doors, I could actually see a "happy fingers" situation if you can't feel braille. And you DEFINITELY want to be looking out for those jailbars, since if they whiz by your window and you ain't looking, you might be fighting with your motorman if he ain't fast enough hitting the DCO relays when he blows past your spot. :)
Wait a minute. The doors can open while the train is in (rapid) motion? Couldn't that be easily fixed?
If you get a chance, and the cab door's open, grab a seat and watch what the guy/gal in the monkeysuit has to do for his/her biweekly nut. :) :)
I'm afraid that, depending on my mood, I'm either sitting (or standing) in the car closest to my exit wishing I were home already or I'm glued to the railfan window, perhaps peeking through the hinge crack at the speedometer. I'm afraid the view of the fifth car from the sixth car isn't quite as exciting.
Well, taxis aren't entirely unlike subways. They both have automated announcements, for one thing. They both have horns. They also both have the uncanny tendency to carry the passenger beyond his intended point of departure with no warning. There are some differences, however. For instance, subways stop for red signals.
Heh. I see some things never change but "automated annoucements in taxis?" *BOY* am I glad I got out when I did ... screw the terrorists, that alone would make me throw up my hands and MOVE OUT. :)
Seriously, train announcements have gotten much, much clearer over the past ten years. The biggest problem is the persistent hum on some of the B Division equipment (the R-40 and R-68 come to mind -- poor Q). Station announcements are a different story entirely.
Remember, I clocked out in the 70's ... back then it was carbon mics and if you pushed the button, all you'd get is a squeal unless you lipped your wraps around Mr Microphone. Glad to hear there's a sound system these days. I still preferred the "guess where we are?" of yore. Made you aware of your surroundings and made you actually get to know your line and your map.
Wait a minute. The doors can open while the train is in (rapid) motion? Couldn't that be easily fixed?
Can't tell ya there - haven't been on any of the cars recently but I have gotten the impression here that it IS possible. Back in the old days, you had to turn a key and then push on cars that had door controls inside, outside you were NEVER in doubt of where you were and what you were doing, but YES, it was possible to open the doors while in motion on the older cars - then the brakes blew and everyone was up in the front of the car.
I'm afraid that, depending on my mood, I'm either sitting (or standing) in the car closest to my exit wishing I were home already or I'm glued to the railfan window, perhaps peeking through the hinge crack at the speedometer. I'm afraid the view of the fifth car from the sixth car isn't quite as exciting.
Pretend you're a TSS. Beats all hell out of an hourly wage. :)
>>Wait a minute. The doors can open while the train is in (rapid) >>motion? Couldn't that be easily fixed?
It's called the door enabler.
>Can't tell ya there - haven't been on any of the cars recently but I >have gotten the impression here that it IS possible. Back in the old >days, you had to turn a key and then push on cars that had door >controls inside, outside you were NEVER in doubt of where you were >and what you were doing, but YES, it was possible to open the doors >while in motion on the older cars - then the brakes blew and >everyone was up in the front of the car.
At least the brake blew, I think now you just lose indication. In fact I know that because some of the psycho motormen leave power on in a station.
Hahahah ... well, something to be said for the old IND junkers. Somebody had their thinking cap on, saluting Mr Green Jeans. Yeah, you went BIE if the doors popped open. Common air system corrupted young engineering minds. :)
Brake pipe = population control.
You SEE? I rest my case. Moo. :)
Oi veh...what a headache. So much trouble I got in over the speedometer issue. The automated announcements are limited in scope and accuracy, the speedo is only a relative indication of speed and the doors aren't supposed to open while the trainset is in motion (and anyone who doesn't heed the 'Don't lean on the doors' signage is railmeat.) Peter
Actually "columnmeat" ... they'll only fall to the rails AFTER all of the rest of the cars on teh consist have "processed them" ... what gets me is that in the days you climbed out, I'm sure in 50 years SOME dumbass pulled the triggers on teh wrong side ... MAYBE. When you climbed out between cars, you SAW platform. If you didn't, it was the 5/4 timing hokey pokey to leap down, grab the gate, whip it back in, lift the OTHER gate and jump up on your pedestal before the long pair of "Yo! You fall off the train?" buzzes came from up front. Heh.
Opening up on the wrong side is not a good idea and in my past whinings about "THIS IS STUPID" I assumed that if the doors DID open on the wrong side, that the brakes would blow. They USED TO. Now I'm even MORE convinced of my own "you'd better not be sleeping in the daytime" stance ... I can see why it's a problem. Damned rare in my day if at all. Then again, in a can, a conductor doesn't have as much "your face" with the railroad either anymore.
So they want Blue Book announcements just not when the Blue Book say to make them?
I really did se something on the Blue Book recently but it might be like those stupid vest memo, notice, buletin, rock paper, scissor deals.
Nope you are right 116-01 says Blue Book announcements only for courtesy and delay otherwise all others in station.
For example, I think it sounds better to say that we are being held at 59th St. because of congestion ahead rather than because of supervision. My feeling is one might be easier to understand and will cause less frustration and anger on the part of the rider.
Maybe for some riders, but for others, attributing being held to "congestion" (or, as Zman points out, "a train ahead") is an incredible source of frustration and anger. There are riders out there that aren't nuts or even casual fans but have figured out that "a red light means we can't move, a green light means we can." Riders may also know that the last train left ten minutes earlier*. Even if they don't know what holding lights are or what they mean, these people may still feel insulted when told that "there's a train directly ahead of us." It's one thing if there truly is another train ahead, but it's improper to use it as an excuse when it's not the real reason. We've all seen what happens when a short-tempered rider feels insluted by a crew member.
The announcements should be accurate but still understandable to the average rider. Hence, "held by supervision for a possible connection" or "held by the dispatcher" instead of "holding lights" (accurate but not universally understood) or "train ahead" (potentially inaccurate.) Likewise, if the train is stopped because there really is another train ahead, the announcement should reflect that instead of attributing it to supervision just because it's an easy excuse to give. Remember, a passenger will see a stopped train as a delay regardless of the actual cause, so if the announcement isn't at least going to be accurate, there might as well be no announcement at all.
* In fact, riders often have a better idea of how closely spaced a pair of trains are than crews, but frequently don't realize this. Other times, riders think they have a better idea but don't know about switching and other sources of delays further ahead.
Mark
Nice, but the dispatchers seldom tell the crews the kind of information that you want to know. The crews take orders from dispatchers, I have experienced crew members asking dispatchers for information only to get the reply: "You are getting paid by the hour". Most dispatchers take the job just to get away from the public and leave the crews to fend for themselves. Sadly most of the new crop of dispatchers were lousy t/o's & tower operators, obviously they will be equally lousy as a dispatcher.
That proves my point exactly - the train crew almost never knows why the holding lights are on, just that they are on. And if they're on, it must be because the dispatcher turned them on. So it makes sense for the announcement to be accurate - "we are being held in the station by supervision" - rather than making up excuses or guessing what the dispatcher might have had in mind or whether or not the dispatcher is an idiot.
If the crew has a reasonably good guess about why the lights are on, then it would make sense to include that information in the announcement too, as long as any guesswork is represented as such. "Held for a possible connection" is good. "Waiting for a connection" is not, because when the connection never arrives, the holding lights go out, and the conductor closes down, passengers that moved across the platform as a result of the announcement will be livid.
Regarding the dispatcher's comment to the road crew, I'm surprised that the dispatcher even took the time to answer.
Mark
Some do! Some don't. Some will! Some won't. Some can while some can't. My impression is that you don't know which side of the discussion you are on but only that you want to disagree. Originally, I had no point to make. I was only seeking information from the train crews about the format of their on-board announcements, nothing more. Of course the thread evolved to the quality of the information provided. However, I find your point totally niave. For example, if there is a southbound F train at 5th Avenue and another with Brakes In Emergency at 42nd Street, the train dispatcher would be correct in holding the train and saying due to a 'stalled train ahead..............'. The fact that people see a green home signal and no train around the curve does not change the situation. The dispatcher might be wise to send the F train over the 8th Ave. line instead. My point was not that the customers be explained every nuance of operating a mass transit system - but that they be accurately informed, on a level that they can understand, without the seemingly predudicial statement "Held by local supervision". That statement seems to me to make the detention seem arbitrary.
Actually, I posted because I felt strongly about the issue that this thread has evolved into, and I have a definite tangible opinion. I wasn't contradicting anyone (certainly not myself,) but took issue with your suggestion that "congestion" be used to explain a delay that may have nothing to do with congestion. My point was only that the road crew often does not have the necessary information available to make on-board announcements with any more substance than "we are being held."
If you reread my post, you'll find that I think accuracy and understandability are the two criteria by which announcements should be judged. Which seem to be the same two criteria you feel they should be judged by. Which makes it seem like you shouldn't be so quick to jump on what I said.
Enjoy your Thanksgiving,
Mark
Supervision instructs me to CYA...'cover your ass.' Road crews know the same...better to get instruction and the 'go ahead' before making anything but the basic announcements. Isn't 'congestion' nicer than 'six car pile up with two dead on FDR drive?' Peter
That brings up a good point. NYCT instructs their crews to make announcements so as to not make passengers queasy for their safety or do not want them the feel anxious. In some cases the crew on your train may know exactly what is going on, other times not. Examples, let's say there is a white powdery substance somewhere. Crews are instructed to use the police investigation announcement. Lets say a passenger is struck by a train (12-9). The announcement will refer to a sick or injured passenger without getting into specifics.
THANKYOU for your kindness and understanding. Posters may not know or understand my position as Car Inspector in relation to the R142s. There are about only seven or so canned announcements on the R142 and it does not include 'sick passenger' or 'police activity' or anything that might excite or upset passengers. I check these 'buttons' and ask about e v e r y t h i n g. The discretion of announcements is up to the crew on R142s and any other trainset. 'If in doubt, check it out.' Anything out of the ordinary should be announced 'under supervision' because of the TA CYA D general orders ('cover your ass, dummy.') The train crew posters on here are to be given credit for their common sense...even when they get burned. Peter
And listen to some of the station PA announcements:
Due to an ongoing police investigation, there are service changes. The N and R trains will not stop at Cortlandt Street. Please use Rector St as an alternative. 1 trains will not stop at Cortlandt St, rector St or South Ferry. Instead, they will make all local stops from Chambers St to New Lots Ave.
And that PA announcement wasn't whipped up by the crew or canned. NYC MTA CYA D. Peter
Like pointing at the boards, the system is just going through
the motions without providing any real value-add. Back in the
day, a GOOD dispatcher or trainmaster would tell the train crew
the information they need. Again, what the passenger really needs
to know is: 1) where is the problem 2) how much will my train
be delayed 3) what should I do to get around it, if possible.
The problem with robotic announcements, whether made by actual
machines or by humans who are acting like machines, is that they
hide a lot of useful information and are often wrong, leading to
distrust. Watch how quickly pax get enraged as soon as they hear
"we're being held" or "congestion ahead". Ever see a train stop
at night for a work crew and the c/r gives the canned "red signal,
congestion ahead" announcement? Similarly, "there's another train
right behind this one". Often a total fib! The passengers can see
down the tracks and there are no headlights in sight. Obviously
"right behind this one" can be subjective, but when it is that
blatant, then passengers get conditioned to dismiss it even when it
is true.
If the train is stopped by a flagger the "red signal" is correct.
I meant when the train stops to pick up or discharge workers
I don't know why those other annoucements are being made but it seems like Held by supervision and Holding light are the most common announcements. I make my announcements from the Blue book because you never know who is riding your train. In many cases that has worked out good for me. Back in July one day the No.2 Line supt. was riding my train and he said I make good announcements.
Hi folks,
Sorry for not being around much lately; I've been busting my tail with version 3, and I'm about 70% complete right now.
To augment the small section on power distribution that I've compiled, I was looking for a typical substation to photograph this afternoon, and in my search, I found this interesting brick building on the East side of Furman St., just north of the Montague St. substation (photo below). I'm 99% sure it's a tunnel vent for the Cranberry St. tubes, but I'm hoping someone more familiar with these things will be able to confirm my suspicions.
Also, can anybody tell me if there are any rotary converters left anywhere on the system or has everything been converted over to solid state? I'm still looking for some substantial power distribution details, so if anyone here's a power guru, please feel free to drop me an e-mail.
Thanks for everything.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 to be released Nov 30!
Does anybody know if that powerhouse (it had rotaries) by the Dyckman street platform on the southbound IRT Broadway line is still there? Might make for a useful shot for Peter ...
It is still there. Although I don't know if it still has rotaries.
Shawn.
I'm pretty sure all the rotaries are gone now since rectifiers are cheaper today and not too many of the old timer sparkies are still on the job who knew those twirling dervishes. Efficiency of silicon is much higher. But if Peter was looking for an active powerhouse, I would guess that one was still running ...
Hi Folks,
I've read a few posts here about upcoming car moves for the Dec. 16 pick, but I've yet to see a copy of the Car Assignment spreadsheets for either the A or B divisions. I'm in the last stages of editing Version 3 and if at all possible, I would like to include trainset details for services post-Dec. 16th. Most important are the Car Equipmennt shop assignments and number of trains of each class on each line for AM and PM rush.
If anybody has access to these and can either scan/copy a printed version or forward an actual spreadsheet file, I would be very grateful.
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 to be released Nov 30!
Hi again folks,
Just wondering if anybody can fill me in on the exact or even relative placement of new tracks 61, 62 & 63 in the 207th St. yard? I know they're up near the portal somewhere, but I've yet to see a graphic depicting them. I believe that they are for redbird layup prior to the inevitable.
Spaeking of 207th St, I know that the wash has been relocated to Track 55 (or is it 54? Can't read my own notes!) and that Tk. 64A has been removed from service, but are tracks 65 and 65A still in service(farthest northeast corner of the yard)? When I was by there as part of the 207 Overhaul tour it almost looked to me as if they were gone.
Finally, I'd like to confirm that the picture below is actually Tower A (I'm somewhat sure it is but I'd not bet my reputation on it)?
I'm actually looking for a better picture of a tower, but that's about the best one I have.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 coming Nov 30!
61,62 and 63 are entranced off a new ladder track split off of the old 1 wash. The ladder switch at the north end is controlled by Tower A, pictured in your post, and begins on the North end at a point about 100 feet north of the Isham Street Yard entrance. Jacks are displayed at points appraching the driveway for the crossing for movement into the wash area before the shop crossing with marker signals displayed just south of the entrance at the 213 Street entrance. The switches at the south area of the Isham Street entrance are hand switches leading to the 61,62 and 63 tracks, used for work trains, not scrap cars, and are used to load and unload work trains. These tracks points to the master tower and are under the A division flyover and can hold 4 to 5 cars each. Also 1 track is split into 2 sections now, there is 1 North, which is the north end of the main entrance at 213. This section is used for scrap car storage and the employee crossover through the main shop is protected by markers and portable trips. Finally, 54 track is now the wash track, the old wash on 1 track has been out of service for at least 8 years now. Hope that helps.
61,62 and 63 are entranced off a new ladder track split off of the old 1 wash
Hi,
Not sure I fully understand the placement. If I read the old single-line drawings correctly, the old wash was on 1 track near the offices on the west side of the overhaul shop. Are you saying that if coming from the portal you would have to take 1 track to the old wash area, then make a reverse move to a new ladder, running parallel to 1 tk?
Also 1 track is split into 2 sections now, there is 1 North, which is the north end of the main entrance at 213. This section is used for scrap car storage and the employee crossover through the main shop is protected by markers and portable trips.
Where is the break located? I assume 1North is only accessible from the loop (56 tk?)?
Just wondering if I could send you a jpeg or PDF file or something that maybe you could sketch in and e-mail back to me. I don't want to put something down and have it wrong if at all possible .
Thanks for your help--it's greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 coming Nov 30!
That pic is definitely Tower A. As far as the new tracks 61-65A, sorry but I cannot verify this. The wash did not appear to be moved (I went through it). And there are 3 or 4 brand new tracks on the southeastern portion of the yard by the Master Tower. They are not electrified (work trains only) and use handthrown switches.
I wish that I could give you more info, but I was just there for 2 hours and wasn't paying much attention to these things.
As far as the wash track, I thought you were talking about being moved recently (within 4 years). Follow Engine Brake's post since he's there every day. Just ask the Supt!
Tuesday's Times column
Okay, I'm on the M100 south (east) bound toward Lexington last night at around 8 PM. As were getting towards Park Av., I see what looks to be a Hudson line train headed for Poughkepsie (excuse my spelling). the odd thing about this train was that the engine, #231, a Genesis as I know it to be, was painted not in the MNRR scheme but in the NH silver, blue, and orange scheme. Can somebody tell me what's going on here?
Several vintage MNRR engines are painted in New Haven colors, I assume for reasons of nostalgia.
Correction: CDOT have purchased/leased these units recently, direct from GETS (GE Transportation Systems). These are not repaint, but factory (Erie PA) fresh units.
Phil Hom
Sorry this isn't subway related but I can shed some light.
I believe locomotives #228-#231 were painted in the McGinnis NH paint scheme. They are new within the last few months. Owned by ConnDOT, run by MN, I think. More can be found here:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/mnr/msg0922152435311.html?26
and in other threads on the same page.
There are still some, but few, older FL9 locomotives lingering out there with the same paint scheme.
Long time reader, first time poster. No doubt, this is a great discussion board.
Many of us don't mind a occasional mass transit question/observation that's not TA ... M-N is part of the MTA family after all.
I also enjoy the folks at Boston, Atlanta, London, etc. with their LRV/subway input. One of those, Simon Billis, it was my very great pleasure to meet last Monday while he was in town for a few days.
Mr rt__:^)
The Engine you were allowed to climb on at MNRR open house had a building date of 9/2001 on it. It was in NH paint. I only assume a month later it had to be painted fresh at the GE Shops.
Yes, they were painted in the NH colors by GE when they were built. There were pictures in alt.binaries.pictures.rails, with "NH" 228 surrounded by brand new stuff for BNSF and UP.
The original MNCR plan was not to paint the Genesis engines anything other than standard Metro North colors. In the past, at least four of the old diesels had been painted in the 1953 New Haven color scheme.
I believe that because of pressure from the MNCR workers as well as railfans, they decided to paint one or two of the new engines in New Haven colors. (No pressure to paint anything in the New York Central colors.)
I believe that because of pressure from the MNCR workers as well as railfans, they decided to paint one or two of the new engines in New Haven colors. (No pressure to paint anything in the New York Central colors.)
I saw the same train at Harmon through the window last weekend. Surprised the heck out of me!
Why NOT repaint a handful in NY Central colors ??? I believe at least one FL-9 was painted that way ... equality among lines, please!
The trick here is ConnDOT. They bought the engines, so they make the conditions of use. Don't be surprised to see ConnDOT owned locos on Shore Line East trains, even if they've been operated by MNCR
-Hank
The trick here is ConnDOT. They bought the engines, so they make the conditions of use.
Good point ... but why on earth would ConnDOT want the trains to be painted in old New Haven RR colors? I can imagine them requesting a non-Metro North scheme (a la red stripes on cars), but why the old NHRR scheme ???
There are those of us who simply love the old New Haven color scheme! There was real dissent when Penn Central and Conrail painted over the old FL9 paint jobs.
There are those of us who simply love the old New Haven color scheme! There was real dissent when Penn Central and Conrail painted over the old FL9 paint jobs.
Do you work for ConnDOT? Does ConnDOT officially feel the same? Or did "us" lobby like crazy to get ConnDOT to require something in train-acquisition specs that most railfans can only dream of?
OK ... so ... how do us NY Central folks get Metro North to require equitable historic paint jobs on the NY-only Genesis orders ???
CDOT is a part of the state Department of Transportation, apponted by an elected governor.
MTA is . . .
Yes I agree with that. Why re-invent the wheel ? NH says state of CT and DIFFERENT from M-N.
NYC, EL, etc. will only happen if MTA/M-N has money to burn & that isn't going to happen since Sept. 11th, e.g. saw some recent news that Suffolk Transit, LI Bus, & Liberty Lines are going to have money withheld from them by good old George Pataki & his nysDOT friends.
Plus I wouldn't bet money that the TA won't be forced to raise the fare. I would be willing to bet the "suits" already know when they are going to do it, it's just the wrong time to announce it.
Mr rt__:^)
I think the yellow and blue FL-9 PC scheeme was pretty hot as well.
Yes, as much as I loved the old New Haven, that blue and yellow scheme witht he Conrail logos did look quite attractive on them.
PC Logos you mean. The good old mating worms. I think we should get sex education out of schools and onto the railroads where it belongs :)
Why not the old NH scheme? Basically, I think ConnDOT has "adopted" it, as most of the locomotives, if not all, on the Shore Line East commuter district are in NH colors. They started off with a pair of F-7A's (originally SP, later Wellsville, Addison & Galeton and then PATransit) which were painted as NH 6690 and NH 6691. They also did a pair of GP38's and a GP-9 in the McGinnis FL-9 type paint scheme (I really think they should have done the GP38's like NH U25B's and the GP9 like NH's 1200 series were done, but....)
This begs another interesting question.
When the M-2 and M-4 orders were made and split between ConnDOT and the MTA, they all got the NH orange stripe, instead of the MTA-owned cars getting the MTA blue scheme like their Harlem and Hudson line cousins. Why did the two agencies not make the distinction then, but are doing so now with the Genesis locos (the FL9s are the exception; they were developed in a collaboration bet. the NH and EMD, giving the NH exclusive rights to them)?
Two FL-9s are painted in NYC colors. 2013 is one of them.
Are they still in service ? Saw one of them at M-N open house.
Mr rt__:^)
2012 is still in service. All FL-9s that still work are kept on the shuttles (Brewster-Wassaic, Danbury). 2013, also in NYC has been kept at the Danbury museum for about a year. It has some engine problems(I heard it has an internal water leak). Rumor has it that MN has donated it along with another FL-9 to the museum to keep. As for the rest of the remaining FL-9s, MN plans to run them until a major component fails(including the FL-9AC). for more info go to www.railroad.net and look in the Metro-North forum for lists of active/retired FL-9s.
TWO of the FL-9's were painted into NYC LIghtning Stripe greys. They were 2012 and 2013.
Silver, blue and orange? The sun must have been hitting them at the wrong angle.
The NH units are white, black and orange.
And the NH colors were black, white, and orange because, the story goes, the president decided on the new paint scheme on Halloween!
Now THAT one I've never heard, I found a source that tends to disavow it.
The red/orange/black paint scheme was NOT decided by the railroad's president...but rather by his wife (!!) and an associate with Herbert Matter (a Swiss designer) called in to develop the logos. The 372 was painted in a yellow/black/white scheme, and 370 was in the red/black white, both just before delivery in early 1955. Before 372 left Erie, it got the red to match what Mrs. McGinnis chose.
I know, we all call it red sometimes and orange other times. Teh New Havenused varying shades with each repaint of equipment....nothing had the same exact shade except when it was fresh from the factory!!
(Source of information? NJ International's book, "Classic Power No. 9: New Haven EP-5 Jets")
Someone posted here a while back that W express in Astoria was suspended on 10/28 (i.e., local at all times). Can any regular riders or crew confirm that this is true? It is not reflected anywhere on the MTA website. They still have the old W schedules, and the 10/28 map still shows the express. Why hasn't this been changed? Is it supposed to be a permanent suspension?
The W express service resumed in Astoria as of Monday, 11/19. It was originally suspended because the crowds at 30th Avenue and Broadway were complaining about inferior service with just the N stopping there. Then the Ditmars crowd started to bellow about the lack of express service. I lived in Astoria from 1960-1994 and I see the temperament of the area hasn't changed much. Add this to the fact that we have a line superintendent on the W line who's always trying to please everyone, rather than come to a decision, and this is the result. Since I work the W as a conductor,IMHO, the all local service was more efficient. You didn't run express from the Plaza to Astoria Blvd. and then sit there for 5 or 7 minutes waiting for a pocket up at Ditmars.
Thanks for the info, Billy. It seems to me that if you have to wait at Astoria Blvd. for 5 - 7 minutes to get into Ditmars, that's not the fault of the express service, but of either the schedule makers or the dispatchers.
there always seems to be that backup at astoria blvd. waiting to get into ditmars. I can't imagine anyone that lives at ditmars and possessing half a brain actually enjoying the service as it stands. perhaps the express in the morning isn't too bad for those leaving ditmars, but coming home it probably takes them as much if not more time spent waiting for a track to open at ditmars. better still, an N will sometimes roll in with the W waiting too, so you have no idea which will get in first, blowing still more time...
V train ahoy.
we are trying to get the supt to run the 'w' train making stops at 30th , broadway then qbp.
If it's going to run on the local track anyway, IMO it might as well make all stops.
"we are trying to get the supt to run the 'w' train making stops at 30th , broadway then qbp."
What authority does a line superintendent have to change the officially-approved-by-MTA route of a subway line?
The Astoria express middays is a joke. You just cut service to a whole bunch of stations that don't have long dwell times anyway. Also, the W I was on left from Astoria Blvd. while I was trying to get to the first car. I saw a R40S on the N heading north, it was the next train to come south, and no other trains passed us. Why run an express that only helps the people at those two stations? I am sure the all important people at Astoria and Ditmars can spend 90 more seconds on a local W train.
They should really limit it to rush hours only.
I say make it local all the time but if they really need express, rush hours only.
Perhaps an expert on the West Side IRT can help me.
I had the rare opportunity last Thursday to take a midday ride on an uptown (1) train. Every so often I take the (1) from Manhattan to Riverdale. However, I can't recall the last time I made the trip in the middle of a bright and sunny day. I was also fortunate to find the railfan window in lead car 2407 unoccupied.
My main question regards the Washington Heights Mine Tunnel.
Heading uptown, I noticed that there is what appears to be a slight upgrade entering 157th Street station, followed by a slight downgrade exiting the station. The same situation occurs at 168th Street and entering 181st Street. The station rails seem to be at an elevation slightly higher than the connecting tunnel rails, with a short transition distance entering and exiting the station.
What is the basis for this design?
Also, I noticed that there appears to be no such transition exiting 191st Street and heading uptown to the Portal. I believe I thoroughly searched the web site, and could find no explaination.
My second question recalls the most peculiar signals I have seen. I noticed one at the uptown end of the uptown platform for 137th Street and 168th Street:
The hosting web site (from which the above photograph is referenced; www.nycsubway.org) indicates that these are used to prompt an operator to call for orders. However, it also said that these signals are not commonly used, what with radio and all. Are these signals still used today on the West Side IRT?
The signals are illuminated, and I noticed that they are at stations where trains are often turned during GOs.
Thanks,
MATT-2AV
I'm going to guess that the upgrades and downgrades were part of a design style the IRT used. It might be the same principle the Lex uses, the express tracks dip lower than the locals while passing local stations. This was done so that expresses could leave a station downhill to speed up faster and have the train enter a station uphill to help slow it down. They might have done the same thing on the 1.
Only one station on the Lex (33rd Street) uses that principle, and there the express tracks are actually forced down by the Park Avenue underpass that predates them. At 91st Street the express tracks are also lower than the local tracks; I don't know why, nor do I know if the express tracks drop or the local tracks rise.
The idea that this is a general design principle appears to be apocryphal.
Only one station on the Lex (33rd Street) uses that principle, and there the express tracks are actually forced down by the Park Avenue underpass that predates them.
I've always wondered, did they actually build the express tracks UNDER the existing underpass? (I think so since I believe Brennan's list of closed stations includes fragments of the platforms in the tunnel from back when it was used for trains.) But why not just rip it out and do the whole thing cut-and-cover, express and local?
The idea that this is a general design principle appears to be apocryphal.
I'd like to see more feedback on that. It might only be a few degrees, but I have read in several places that it was in fact an accepted design principle. The noticeable ones -- you've cited two, and I'd add the BMT at Herald Square where the Hudson Tubes were pre-existing -- are due to other factors, but I betcha there are slight up/downgrades leading to/from some or many or most stations. Anyone else weigh in?
The design principle that I've heard credited to the IRT was specifically that, at local stations, the local tracks should rise (to assist in deceleration and acceleration) while the express tracks should remain level.
As long as the four tracks are on the same level between stations, if this principle were widely followed, most local stations would have the express tracks slightly below the local tracks. I only know of three stations with this trait, however: 91st Street, 33rd Street, and (I omitted this one from my previous post) Houston Street.
Moscow subway follows that design principle.
Arti
So does Montreal's Metro.
Mine Tunnel? I wasn't aware there was every any mining
operation in Washington Heights? Slight changes in grade like
that were probably made to avoid sewers.
As for the train order signal ("cat's eyes"), these aspects are
generally illuminated when the tower puts the ball back. In other
words, if that home signal is being held at Red over Red by the
tower, such as when throwing the switch, as opposed to being
R/R because of a train ahead, the train order signal goes from
white to red and the telephone number lights up.
They call the section "Mine Tunnel because it was blasted oput of solid bedrock by coal miners (SOURCE: Joe Cunningham).
Todd Glickman has been kind enough to give depth measurements on this section. See the IRT Westside page for the measurements. of 168 IRT and IND, 181 IRT .
When those lights go on, that means they want to talk to you about something, not just when a switch is being thrown. Wouldn't they get you on the radio and have you contact Command instead of having you get out and use the lineside telephone?
Train order signals were an invention of the BRT during
the dual contracts. It alludes to the mainline RR
practice of having a train order semaphore signal (uh, signal
geeks out there, help me out, rounded blade end???) at
block stations. When the signal was dropped, that was a cue
for the engineer to stop there and pick up orders.
Before there were radios in the transit system, this was a method
to request that motormen call in from the road for special
instructions. TO signals were placed usually at the entrances
to river tubes and certain interlockings. The usual way these
things were wired is as I described: when the signal is being
held back by putting the lever in the tower in the NORMAL
position, the train order aspect changes from white to red.
It was less typical for a separate lever to be provided just
for the TO aspect, so you would not likely see a signal such
as G over G over double white. Also, as a side effect, when
the signal is put back to throw a switch or to swing traffic,
the TO aspect will be RED.
Of course now, if they want to talk to a train, they just do it.
Is this signal still in the current rulebook? Are motormen still
required to get out and call?
I have seen train order signals displaying red at one time on the Lex entering SOuth Ferry. The signal lit and indicated to call the IRT. The T/O radioed Control.
...i spotted this 5 car, distinctly euro-looking train for the first time on the F late one night over the weekend - does it make the rounds throughout the entire system? can it fit through the irt tunnels? I know they bought it a year or 2 or 3 ago... does it efficently suck up the track-trash?
does it efficently suck up the track-trash?
I hope it does! That train might be very useful at Roosevelt Av., especially, because I've seen a lot of trash there. I've actually seen someone throw a styrofoam DUNKIN DONUTS cup onto the s/b exp. tracks!
Not a Dunkin Donuts cup!!!!???!?! That's insane!!
What do you mean? That guy deliberately threw it onto the tracks, and he ignored the tall wastebasket which was a few feet away from him in the center of the platform.
As best as I remember it, it was a DUNKIN DONUTS cup.
Also a disgusting thing is when people spit on the tracks. I wish they would stop.
You really do have absolutley no sense of humor, do you? Can't you tell when someones pulling your chain. Lighten up already.
Peace,
ANDEE
What are you talking about? I wasn't trying to be funny. I admire other people's sense of humor. I laugh a lot, well it depends on how funny it is.
VacTrak is also known as an R-137. It's built to operate on both divisions. Total length is 223' 3/4" long and 8' 6 3/8" wide. Power sections are 46' long and weigh 108,000 Lbs. Filter cars are 59' and 79,470 Lbs. Collection car is 44' long and 41,000 Lbs. Always run in this configuration:
Power car - filter car - collection car - filter car - Power car
OK ... OK ... OK ... now you've done it ... let the debate begin!
Who gets to empty the bag car and where? And does it require a crane to shake the bag car empty? :)
I've never seen it done but I understand that the unit is run onto a special track and the bottom of the collection car opens. Everything drops into a hopper. It was cheaper to do it this way than to pay for what Hoover wanted for the bags.
By the way - I forgot to mention in the previous post that the R-137:
Each PC has a 475 HP Detroit diesel for propulsion
Each PC has a 475 HP Detroit diesel for Aux. power
Vacuum Blowers are 75 HP
Capacity is 300 Cu ft. of trash
Vac. speed 1 - 8 MPH.
Max speed is 40 MPH
Acc is 0.5 MPH/sec
Max brake is 3 MPH/Sec
Cost $13,400,000
Hahahaha ... good one on the bags ... and the pricing isn't bad for what you got either. Now here's one that should be amusing. With all of the suckage I assume down below, where does it vent the positive pressure out? Through the "roof" or down below where it can help swirl the debris onto another truck like street sweepers?
"Inquiring mimes knead to no ..."
oy vey.
is it diesel powered? it was amazingly quiet all things considered.
damn i'm nosy...
Diesel powered with a Voight Automatic Hydrostatic transmission.
"Cost $13,400,000"
At that price, it better suck !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Perhaps your question can be answered this way - in the tradition of the LIRR, one of the Power Cars has been named Monica! So I suppose it does (Sorry Dave)
Picks up lots of cigars from the tracks, eh? :-)
It works so well that one person has to walk the tracks in front of it to make sure larger objects aren't sucked into it and damage the sucker.
Wow ... THERE'S a career choice ... or perhaps the guy that walks in front is choosing that as an alternative to the "three days off" punishment? Being chased by a large suction device ... whatta country! :)
"Wow ... THERE'S a career choice ... or perhaps the guy that walks in front is choosing that as an alternative to the "three days off" punishment? Being chased by a large suction device ... whatta country!"
If you have this job and are at a party, how do you describe it to the partygoers while maintaining a straight face ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I could probably manage ... "what do I do for a living? Chug chug chug woo woo bing bong pffffffffffffp ..." Or as Dewd suggested, imagine a 75 ton MONICA ... of course, MY guests would simply suggest that I take my ritalin.
Hey, forget about what you said..........................I just like your presentation effects!
Should of seen the 'presentation' I gave some of my car inspectors after I QC'd one of their cars. Now that was an effective presentation. But thanks!!!
Ok, ok, so is the rumor that it can suck up subway rats true?
But can it core a apple? :)
Oh, it can core A apple!!!
Zip Zip -- There, it is done.
Thank you, oh, chef of the future!!!!
Train of da future then ... did they go for the HEPA filter option and the beer can holder?
Shhhhhhh!!!!! At the risk of offending at least one ethnic group, I will say that the owner of one ethnic restaurant in the bronx, has offered to cart the collections away for free. Is there a market for rodent fur?
I'm not sure what exact station it would be? I guess on Six Ave. Was there or is there a way to get from the subway station directly in to Radio City Music Hall without going to the street? Like going from Penn in to MSG. Thank you...
I'm not sure what exact station it would be? I guess on Six Ave. Was there or is there a way to get from the subway station directly in to Radio City Music Hall without going to the street? Like going from Penn in to MSG. Thank you...
Yup. Take any Sixth Avenue train to the 47-50 Rockefeller Center station. Exit in the northeast corner. The staircase will take you to the street directly under the awning for Radio City -- so technically you're going on the street, but for perhaps 10 seconds.
you hit the nail on the head.
When is this station due for a rehab ? With Radio City being a well known tourist spot, the station beneath should look as good.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Rockefeller Center station is very well preserved for an unrenovated station. Looks better than some renovated ones.
Rehab what are you talking about? When the mta remodels a station they gut all the old ornament and traces of thing that used to be there. Look at times square on the stairs that go up to the southbond n,r,q,w platform you will see the staris goto the left and there is wooden blue wall on the right. What is behind that wall is the orginal stairs with orignal mosaics. They removed all traces of those original staris on the platform by covering it with that stupid imitation marble. When they tile the floor in a station it removes alot of history also what they love to do is put new tile over the old tile in the stations. That covers any signs of old doors, fixtures, railings, passageways, crossunders. For example they are re tiling the walls on the local n,r served stations in manhatten. they should leave them as they are it is a waste of money and histrorical loss. Hurry down and try to see how to original tiles from 1910's look before they are lost forever. I belive in preserving the subway, not making it inviewable and fancy and pretty. Leave the old tile, don't cover it. fill in the holes and call that a job. what is worng with keeping the original tile on top Tile is stone it lasts virtually forever.
Does anyone remember the TV movie :
A Short Walk to Daylight?
I haven't seen it since it came out in 1972, but remember it showing r1/9's. I think they re-did it a year or so later as "The Night the Earth Shook", but it didn't make any sense. They tried to change it from an earthquake to a terrorist attack or a nuclear attack or something.
Hmmm, wonder if I am the only one who remembers this movie. LOL
Some of us do remember it - however getting us to ADMIT it is another story. :)
I remember it quite well, they DID use the R-6 and R-7 cars that they were planning to preserve at the time in the movie; one of them I believe is 1300. They actually filled it with rubble to simulate the train being crushed by the falling tunnel. Quite a convincing scene there, but of course, it was just concrete chunks and spare scrap parts they used. But it scared the heck out of me!
wayne
I've been looking around to see if there is a copy available somewhere.
I think the last time it aired was before the era of the VCR though.
It aired in Denver a few years back; unfortunately, I saw the listing after the fact and didn't have a chance to tape it.
If this is the movie I'm thinking of, with an IND station made up as Bowling Green, and the South Ferry loop being inaccessable, that the people had to walk the tube to Brooklyn. I saw this on the late, late, late show about oh, it had to be 25 years or better ago. I didn't catch it from the beginning, and didn't know the name, but the plot sounds familiar so I'm guessing this is the movie you're referring to.
I haven't seen it, but have wanted to for some time. They probably used Court St. I read they lifted the train (or perhaps one or two cars) off the track to simulate a derailment.
Yeah, in the mid-70's the company that made 'Short Walk to Daylight' -- Universal -- was into 'padding' (aka adding aditional footage to) movies already made to give up-and-coming 'starlets' some employment. This also was an early studio trick to make their theatrical flicks more sellable to TV networks (Look folks -- NEW footage you didn't see in the theatre!). I remember 'Airport '75' and 'Earthquake' were given this treatment.
BMTman
Even Blazing Saddles was given this treatment!
So was 1941. The so-called director's cut included some 26 minutes not shown in theaters. I have both versions on VHS as well as the DVD; the DVD contains the longer version.
When I saw that movie in the early 70's I was anxious because the train was a #4 and I erroneously thought it was the Sea Beach because that was its designation when I left New York. I didn't know until I visited New York two years later that the whole subway system had changed its letter and number system and that train was the Lexington Express (the Jerome Line in the Bronx.) I liked the movie and hope they show it on TV again.
Article in the Albany TimesUnion on Sunday:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyKey=70162&category=C
More reasons why choochoos "Made in New York" are massive screwage ...
After building those DE/DM shitcans for the LI, they deserve to be put out of their misery. They served a political purpose to award rail contracts to NYS firms, and nothing more. The LIRR and Amtrak customers must now suffer from the consequences from NYS's stupidity and corruption.
Couldn't agree more and I *live* here ... but it does bring up a few concerns about "in warrantee repair" though ...
ChooChoos 'Made in New York' need quality control. In R142 class, we compared Bom. (Plattsburg) and Kaw. (Yonkers) differences and problems. I know all the R142 systems and have done all three inspections: the R142 we looked at had no brakes or crew switches and it's brand new!!! There are already 300 or so mods and it's becoming more difficult to sort out the updates. One classmate works in engineering and documents parts and problems....the parts for the trains aren't even on the books. Not even 'Made in Japan' means quality anymore. The Redbirds are looking better every day. Peter
Bite that lip, boy! Heh. There ain't enough duct tape MADE to keep the boids running much longer. :)
I smelled BONDO today and Red Spray paint too! One was just washed and was having wheels cut. We have to save the duct tape for R142s. Peter
Heh. If that paint ever lets go, there's going to be a "powder on tracks" incident of biblical proportions. :)
I cringe the thought of doing 'propulsion' on them and look foward to ANY R142 inspection. The group box cams are pinned and glued BUT Redbirds somehow keep running just like the people of New York.
They HAVE lived a long and useful life but I've heard from others that it's TRULY bubble gum and bailing wire time under yonder. The kick with the end signs pretty much sums up the state of the cars though. Doublewide housing's about all they're good for nowadays.
Nasty, dirty and greasy work downstairs. Leaks from gearboxes, choking dust accumulated in DC traction motors, brake shoe dust that sticks like glue, door opener mechs that spit black crap into your clothes,A/C units that are a mess downstairs with vent fans dropping black dust upstairs, air compressers that run like unbalanced washing machines and so much more fun. I really do owe a debt of gratitude to the car desk manager that assigns me cuz I've really learned a lot in a very short time. Really! The experience on the worst makes the new 'a piece of cake.' Anything is easier...even the garbage cars that don't have dynamic braking (one less test.) Redbirds RUN.
Heh. Well, never did the natties myself but back in the "deferred maintenance" days, most of that stuff found its way into the cabs. And when you dropped your seat to charge up, there was a cloud of whatever to brush off your trousers. It's those days that make me wonder what kind of wonderous smoking materials are making the rounds downtown that would require motorpersons to wear a uniform ... then again, I'm sure they use vacuum cleaners now too. :)
I've never seen a vacuum cleaner or compressed air!!! We have 'cotton gloves and plastic condoms' not to mention wonderful rebreathing apparatus (3M dustmasks.) Love it all, Peter.
Dang! Back in my day, you'd spread that stuff on yer sammich. :)
hahaha Redbirds live repair dont distroy and buy new, anyway get new parts if the moteors are clogged with break dust
The whole RTL rebuild is a "make work" contract for Sooper Steal. The trains have been shop queens ever since delivery, the rebuilds (both the MK and SSS) have been duds, the new rebuilds are nowhere to be seen, and let's face it, they're useless anyway because the number of 125mph miles in NY state is.... zero
And the number of 125mph miles in NY state 5 years from now will most likely be zero.
In fact, there's really no use for a 25 year old, 125mph, gas turbine train set (and yes, I'm hearing rumors that fuel consumption is still high compaired to diesels). Other than a "museum fleet", which Amtrak seems to like.
Might all be ... but we can STILL use the seats. :)
"they're useless anyway because the number of 125mph miles in NY state is.... zero"
Why (re)build trainsets to handle 125mph when there are no 125mph tracks or signals? Why improve signals and tracks to handle 125mph when there are no trainsets that fast? The dog continues to chase its tail and nothing productive happens.
I'm not sure if it's already been posted here. I haven't been here for awhile, and don't see it, so here goes:
The TA has begun to change the signs on R-46 units so that they're more oriented to the TA's new 'neighborhood destination' scheme. I first noted it on the G. The signs now announced:
71st st
Forest Hills
Crosstown Lcl
Normally it said:
71/continental
Crosstown local
The R line has been changed too. I haven't seen any F R-46's.
The sign changes on the R are as follows:
R - Bay Ridge
R - 95 St.
R - via 60 St.
I've noticed one sign change on the F:
F - 6th Av./63rd St.
I know there are more on the F, but I sat away from the LCD so couldn't notice any more.
By the way, the new signage on the R trains, the display looks "pretty empty".
Here are the signs I've seen so far on R46's
F to CONEY ISLAND|6 AV LCL|CULVER LCL|
F JAMAICA/179 ST|6 AV/53 ST LCL|QUEENS BL EXP|
F JAMAICA/179 ST|6 AV/63 ST LCL|QUEENS BL LCL|
G SMITH-9 STS|CROSSTOWN LCL|
G FOREST HILLS|71 AV|CROSSTOWN LCL|
R BAY RIDGE|95 ST|BROADWAY LCL|
R FOREST HILLS|71 AV|BROADWAY LOCAL|
R JAMAICA CENTER|PARSONS-ARCHER|BROADWAY LCL|
R JAMAICA CENTER|PARSONS-ARCHER|BROADWAY LCL|via 60 ST|
I have seen
G COURT SQUARE |LONG IS. CITY
Well, maybe the train that you've seen had different signs, but on the R this past Sunday, I only saw:
R - Bay Ridge
R - 95 St.
R - via 60th St.
Three changing signs. LCD looks empty, but they will change it to Jamaica Center when the train turns back.
But what about when the E runs to Jamaica Center again during the week? Will the LCD on the R say "71 Av. / Continental"?
The R46 on the E says:
E JAMAICA CENTER |PARSONS ARCHER
I have also seen:
F QUEENS BL EXPRESS ( I guess there must also be a QUEENS BL LOCAL)
hey ur right. Actually it says E JAMAICA CTR, E PARSONS ARCHR. what makes no sense in my opinion is why did they change the F to say this
F 6 AV/53RD ST LCL
F QUEENS BL EXP
NOW WHY CHANGE THE F CODE WHEN THE F WILL STOP GOING THRU 53RD ST TUNNEL ON 12/16/01!!!
Reroutes. You might as well store the "possible" readings but as long as there isn't anything ridiculous.
If they redo the R44s, maybe the A can do this:
A FAR ROCKAWAY
A MOTT AVENUE
A 8TH AVENUE/FULTON EXP
A JFK AIRPORT
I have also seen an F with 63 st.
I did make that suggestion to Train Dude and it seems that when he passed along my idea that someone must have liked it or they already had decided to do this.
The JFK suggestion?
No- the suggestion was adding
Via 53 St, Via 60 st and via 63 st
That seems just logical to me. You say VIA 6TH AVENUE and in the olden days, VIA BRIDGE or VIA TUNNEL, why not say which tunnel you are using? After all, I don't ever recall the E or F going over the MannyB or thru Montauge (and I know about the EE, don't post saying what it did and when and all).
You can't mention that the "A" goes to JFK Airport, else some morons might think that it means the last stop is JFK airport.
I thought about that. Maybe it should say
VIA JFK AIRPORT
or
SERVES JFK AIRPORT
R-68s do say "Far Rockaway via JFK airport" in the south roll.
(Thanks R36 9346!!!)
[I thought about that. Maybe it should say
VIA JFK AIRPORT
or
SERVES JFK AIRPORT]
The latter wouldn't fit on the signs in that form. They're limited to 15 characters plus the route letter.
I've seen this on the F last Sunday:
F - 6th Av./63rd St. LCL. (not 53rd.)
Does this clear it up for you?
I saw them myself too. I saw those and I even saw:
(R) BAY RIDGE|95 ST|BROADWAY LCL|via 60 St.
I've been bringing a dsiposable camera every day hoping to catch the old readings on the (F). I managed to get the southbound readings, but so far not the northbound. Looks like my time may have run out.
:-( Andrew
Here are two more
F 6 AV/63 ST LCL|CONEY ISLAND|
E 8 AV LCL|CANAL ST|
For some reason there seems to be numerous variations of signage for the F (after all, waiting for the R train at 74th St allow me to see about 5-6 F trains perday), for example, I've seen:
F
CONEY ISLAND
6 AV/63 ST LCL
CULVER LCL
CONEY ISLAND
6 AV LCL
CULVER LCL
VIA 63 ST
CONEY ISLAND
6 AV LCL
CULVER LCL
VIA 53 ST
CONEY ISLAND
6 AV/53 ST LCL
CULVER LCL
CONEY ISLAND
6 AV LCL
CULVER LCL
And today I even saw
CONEY ISLAND
6 AV/53 ST LCL
CULVER EXP <--!!!!
I don't know what's the reason for that.
The other lines have the same pattern, some E's say via 53 and some don't, some R's say via 60 and some don't, and so on.
Ok, thanks. I'll take that into consideration.
By the way, what were the old R46 LCD signage texts? I know one was BROADWAY LOCAL on the R, and CULVER LCL. on the F, but I'm not sure of the others.
Can you tell me what they were?
I think it was
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV/CULVER LCL
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS EXPRESS
There are still some that haven't been changed yet.
Now this is the REAL DEAL here !! ..........lol!!........not a subway bu the actual trolley bus map............lol!!
i hope this is not too far ""off topic"" maybe i should post this on ( bustalk ) ??? .........lol!!
And did I ever get fooled by the MVRA!!!!! Peter
YES ... look out for the trip wire .....lol!!
It's not far off-topic. Dayton should have had improved rapid transit. Besides Wright Patterson AFB, it is the home of many major manufacturing industries and HARA Arena. You can take the #8 and go up Salem to the HamVention without looking for a parking place. Peter, WB2SGT
I am going to try to take some pics next time i am in detroit etc.... ( thanks ) ....
I made over twenty trips to Dayton, one per year, and thought the MVRA was such a GREAT IDEA until I found out it was a big hoax by searching for the car manufacturer. I liked the electric busses fed by catenary lines. Sure the wires would be a problem here in NYC but the diesel AND experimental busses are beat by such systems. Just remember they roll up the sidewalks downtown by six o'clock. Peter
he he he he he he he he he he ............lol !!
Keep on laughing....but if you EVER got stuck in that creamy Salem Ave. off-road mud asking the Lord to keep your vehicle moving wondering why you drove seven hundred miles to get there to find some new electronic toys....you'de welcome anything on rails. Peter
Printing out the R142 FAQ to bring into class tomorrow. The 'Regenerative Braking Feature' mentioned has been turned off on all cars I know of...the system works by searching for 25/50 cycle ripple on the third rail from other trainsets and doesn't work. Bombadier is working on the software...we replace the brake shoes and TA is keeping an accurate count of them. Peter
Is this a reprint of the book that sold out at the transit museum bookstore a couple of yaers ago, or is it entirely new ? Amazon claims hey will have it in March.
Evolution of New York City Subways : An Illustrated History of New York City's Transit Cars, 1867-1997
by Gene Sansone
Price information not available. You can still order this item, and we will request approval of the price via e-mail prior to shipment. This item will be published in March 2002. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives.
Well, it's the same title so I would suspect a reprint. Perhaps in softcover.
Does anybody know the reason why the days off on the yard switching jobs on both Broadway and the East, AMs & PMs, Sat-Sun have shrunk down to 2 slots each while the midnights have grown to 12? I was told that more midnight switching jobs were created at 240th Yard due to the service changes on the #1 line yet I could only find one new yard job there. Were there other jobs created? Anyone with some info out there? Speak out.
Most of the P.M. road jobs have WAA at the end. So it looks like the people in the ivory tower want two trips to New Lots and a lay-up for 8 hrs. thus eliminating switching jobs and saving money.
Wanna see a part of the Metro that looks, and feels like a true over-the-street el? Take the Red Line to the Grovesnor Station, exit on the Rockville Pike side, and walk south to the traffic light. Stand at that corner, and look at the structure. Doesn't it look like a true over-the-street elevated standing at that intersection? That short (around 250 feet) structure looks like a modern-day el. Please feel free to debate this.
heheh...going to school everyday passes me by that el...gotta say it is like a real el structure...7 train over Queens Blvd comes to mind
The best `el' section on the DC Metro is the King Street station overpass in Alexandria -- narrow street with a station right above it; give it about 75 more years of wear and tear and it will have the urban el station look down pat.
It is. I ride on it every morning.
Well folks, this is it!
After everything that's gone on recently I've finally got version 3 of my Track Map book almost wrapped up. I expect to get it to the printers early next week, so I'm saying that tentatively the book should be available for sale next Friday, Nov. 30th.
Look for an additional 10 pages of intro text, a new closeup of South Ferry and historical maps of both Queensboro Plaza and Atlantic Ave. I'm going to try and update the signal pages to include PATH signals if I can.
Of course, all the maps are now up to date and new route markers for the post-Dec. 16th services are now in place, or at least as well as I can guess ahead of time (what IS the G going to do on weekends??!!). V service, re-routed F service, cut back G and the downtown closures are all in there, plus a few new home signals.
I still need a bit more info if I can get it between now and Tomorrow night, specifically car/yard assignments (I *really* need that car assignment spreadsheet for post-Dec. 16th) and any yard layout or operations changes, especially in light of post-9-11.
I'll start taking orders only once it's in the printer's hands, and I expect to be able to start fulfilling orders next weekend if all goes well.
Thanks to everyone who's helped in my research on this project, and if I can be of any assistance or you want to make any last-minute suggestions or reminders, please don't hesitate to e-mail me (pjd@panix.com). I've got about 250 hours work in so far, and I'll be pulling 18-hour-in-front-of-a-keyboard days until it's done.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 coming Nov 30!
Umm, Peter. What's the price. And do you take plastic or checks?
Umm, Peter. What's the price. And do you take plastic or checks?
Hi Mark,
My Price is $37 + $5 for postage, envelope and handling, etc. I can take plastic through PayPal (I don't do enought business to make a regular credit card merchant acc't worthwhile!), otherwise I'd prefer a money order, unless you don't mind waiting for Citibank to take its time processing cheques.
Do me a small favour, and e-mail me next week once it's at the printers and I'll give you all the gory details of how to order, etc. I'll also have payment details up on my Web site at www.nyctrackbook.com/ordering once it's ready to go.
I'm trying to tread a very thin line here and not turn this forum into a giant commercial for my book, and at the same time let folks know about something that may be of interest and relevant to the issues at hand (grin).
Cheers,
PJD
--pjd
Peter,although I am on vacation, I'm trying to get a copy to meet your deadline. Faith!!!!!
Thanks for your very kind offer to assist, Steve--your help is always tremendously appreciated. I may have a little brain-picking to do via e-mail with you, with respect to car assignments once I take a gander at that info.
Also do the colour stripes on IRT cars still have any degree of relevance any more or are they now mostly relics from the past?
Thanks again.
Cheers,
-pjd
I had breakfast last week at the IHOP on upper B'way with a retired supervisor who worked for me. I saw one consist on the #1 line with red, yellow and blue stripes. Remember the old 'Wonderbread' ads of the 50s and 60s? To answer your question, I don't think the color stripes are as difinative as they were a few months ago.
I've seen multiple times over the past few days, the Queens Plaza tower is DARK, with one side boarded up.
If you take an E or F train and look to your right as the train reaches the end of the platform you will see. The only thing that is lit inside is the control panel with current train locations.
I do see someone working at Roosevelt Avenue tower during these times though.
So if Queens Plaza tower is closed, and in the morning some F trains go through the 63rd Street tunnel, which tower is responsible for that switch? Is it Roosevelt? Or another tower?
The brand new Queensboro Master Tower has taken over the Queens Plaza and Court Square satellite towers. An assistant dispatcher still remains at the old QP tower during the rush hour to "clock" trains.
Is that the REAL master tower, or that trailer out on the street?
The real Master Tower resembles a trailer up on the structure.
Why did they move to the elevated location? The old one was fine, and it wasn't outside.
The physical separation is necessary to ensure that the TW/O uses "the force" to determine which train is where. Zen bunnyism didn't cut it. Thanks, Alex ... then it is indeed the tower we heard about finally "cut in" ... should be amusing. :)
John, It's called progress. For the record, the new master tower is not outside. It's in a building on the structure but it is inside - I promise you.
I receieved yesterday some photos of the new Master Tower but I'm not sure if NYCT would appreciate their being published here at this time...
I have about 30 of them from the new tower and the TA asked me to take them down. I would refrain from putting them up...
-Harry
it is now controlled from queensboro master toweras is the 'g' line , 21st st. the N&R trains and soon to be V line. it controls everything from 36th st to lex ave
there is no longer a tower machine on the north end, and a fire made it unusable last week
Dave, as you can imagine, the NYCT has become very security conscious over the past few months. They've clamped down on the practice of selling technical manuals over the internet and I'm sure that they would view the publication of such photos as potentially dangerous. My first thought would be to get any such photos approved by the TA public relations dept. before posting them.
BTW: Perhaps one of our NYPD or MTA Police members can confirm this but I heard from a LIRR employee that two arrests have been made recently of unauthorized persons in the east river tunnels - with illegal 'materials'.
hhmmmm... i've heard similar rumors. no details though.
makes you wonder about whoever it was that got hit by that amtrak train on the west side last week...
If what I've heard turns out to be true, it would seem that the public is being kept deliberately in the dark. I've been told that there have been some internal police memos about the incident(s). I'm hoping that someone will post the whole story.
A talk with a lawyer would be appropriatehere.
Public authorities which try to clamp down on article or photi publication often do this without any legal right whatsoever (for example, the silly request from Washington Metro a while back). So, cooperating with them is not a legal requirement, but not cooperating with them may reduce their willingness to cooperate in future with tours and other courtesies that they offer fans...
Perhaps so but lawyers don't often offer free advice. Then again, are we talking what's legal or are we talking about what is prudent in these times? I think the TA has a right to demand that E-Bay not permit the sale of NYCT technical manuals on their service. The manuals are issued to employees to facilitate the job. They are not sold to the employees and technically, since the employees sign for them, they are considered loaned property, to be returned at the time of seperation. Considring the number of books that have been passed down to me from the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, however, I don't believe this was a very high priority in the past.
It seems to be one of those things that come and go. When my dada died in '87, Transit insisted I return his pass, his tools and his rulebook before they would give me his final check and the cash-out from his sick time.
Just goes to show you - one of my former employees is doing 2-4 in an upstate facility for check forgery. Noboby asked for anything back except his pass.
You should be allowed to sell copies as long as you don't include and pics of the master key, reverser, brake handle or the like.
Sorry but in these times I'd have to agree with the guys upstairs. The information contained inthe manuals could be used to create chaos on the system - pictures or not. I find that I've even subconciously gotten less technical in the discussion of circuits and procedures.
As long as you don't say how to recharge the brakes after emergency goes off. Or give impressions of master keys for doors.
It would be nice for some one to publish a guide to driving a subway car (not enough infromation to actual do anything major and some ommisitions of common mistakes) or for some one to publish a complete guide to a R-1 or earlyer.
Better yet, join your favorite trolley museum (Branford, Seashore, etc.) next season and LEARN HOW TO RUN ELECTRIC RAILWAY CARS. Both of the aforementioned museums even have retired NYC subway cars, which you can learn to run (at Seashore, after a few years' experience with streetcars).
As long as you don't say how to recharge the brakes after emergency goes off. Or give impressions of master keys for doors.
It would be nice for some one to publish a guide to driving a subway car (not enough infromation to actual do anything major and some ommisitions of common mistakes) or for some one to publish a complete guide to a R-1 or earlyer.
The information contained inthe manuals could be used to create chaos on the system...
I take it that all NYCT employees have read the manuals. :-)
Humor? From Mr. Bauman? Next we'll here that the Grinch has returned Christmas. I'll have to weigh my words more carefully next time.
Heh. C'mon ... he's RIGHT ... you quote project blue book and you are speaking UFO's sometimes. :)
It's outside because the tower also controls the 7 and N. Plus, to build a new underground tower would require more excavation plus some way to get to it from an existing area. They couldn't simply upgrade Queens Plaza because that tower had to be operational 24/7.
It is a shame that more of the nations precious few interlocking towers are being allowed to close. Someone needs to start some sort of preservation effort. Where is that master list of manned towers again? Was it on the NYC Rails site? I am still trying to get it added to the master North American Interlocking Tower list.
it is controlled by queensboro plaza
I read two interesting articles in the NY Times website. One puts a window on the world track workers that work in the under-river tubes must endure. It sure is scary down in those tubes. It is also a very desolate place to work. And now with the threats of terrorism, track workers have to "inspect" tunnels for any suspicious packages. As far as cops stationed at tunnel entrances, I did not see any at Grand Central or Vernon-Jackson on the 7.
The other article is on Chinatown, and more or less confirms what's been written and noticed since Sept.11, business is way down there. Many factories are closed and people out of work. Chinatown is actually the hardest hit area outside of the immediate WTC vicinity. There are many victims of this disaster that have been affected by economic reasons from the loss of jobs, but most charities aren't helping them. I think more needs to be done to help ALL victims of the WTC disaster, direct and indirect.
I can't tell ya Chinatown is pretty dead. Usually while riding the train across the Manhattan bridge you see lots and lots of people. However, since Sept.11 a look down on E.Broadway you see mostly sidewalk and pavement, and not many people on them. This will probably speed up what has already been happening, the "satellite" Chinatowns in Brooklyn and Queens will grow as business and people move out of Chinatown. Also the dust in the subway tunnels linger all over lower Manhattan with that eerie white/gray tint, even near the Canal st station. Have they used the vacuum train there yet?
While riding the uptown #1 today, the railfan window was available (Livonia equipment) so since I do not operate in the A division, I decided to look and see. I had seen 3 things that maybe one of you can clarify for me.
1) At 96 St at the leaving end (X288 ball), I had noticed that there are two blue chevrons (or arrows) pointing to the X within the white area on the ID plate. Do these chevrons (arrows) mean anything?
2) At the end of the 207th Street Yard lead, there is a sign that says SB in black letters on a yellow background. What does SB mean?
3) On both sides of the Broadway Bridge south of 225th Street, there are lights with plates that say "Do not pass when red light is on" give or take a word. Are there trip arms associated with these lights, or any other type of fixed stop? And don't be a wise guy and say the water or the bridge mmmkay.
Thanks.
The two small unlit blue chevrons on the face plate of a homeball are to remind T/O that this Homeball is a point of no return. Make sure you have the correct line for your route. You will find this on all homeball that are in a place of no return. This is something new TA is trying in the A-div. They think it will stop all wrong route.
Some of you out they are thinking how in the world do a T/O take a wrong route. Its all to easy. Tunnel vision. Sometime you get lost in the tunnels. It all looks the same. You think your a one place or homeball but you're a few feet down track or at that other homeball. It's like riding in a train. The train stop and in the last second you jump out your sit realize it's your stop but you stop short of the door. You now realize that this is not your stop, you turn around and realize you lost your sit and now you are standing there like a fool. (I know that has happen to everone once) That how you take a wrong line up.
The blue chevrons are a waste of time. They are to small to see in the dark and by the time you see it, realize your about to take a wrong line up, Pull a hard brake, the time the train take to respond to the hard brake, too late, you have now pass the homeball. But now TA has a new rule to hang you. Beside writing you up on a wrong route they can write you up for not obeying a fix sign the blue chevrons. Two for the price of one. Three Write up in 18 month and you lose your handle.
I think the the lower aspect of a homeball (that the part that shows your line up) in a place of No Return should blink at all time in any color, red, yellow or green. Now a Train Operator can see the point of no return hundred of feet away and respond to it.
I hope TA reading this. oh forgot rule 199-453-B4325.453 "there the right-way, the wrong way and TA way."
I always enjoy the sign at 50th street:
"WHAT YOU PUNCH IS WHAT YOU GET"
That's because there is no TW/O to question a possible wrong punch, so a wrong line-up there is completely and totally your own fault. As for blue chevrons on a signal, there is nothing in my rule book denoting the existance of blue chevrons as a fixed signal, so they can't get me on that.
As for 3) I recall having seen trip cocks rise
when the (RR crossing bars) come down on the
street below, the trippers come up and the
red light turns on... and the bridge is lifted..
IIRC the wording is:
'Do Not Go Beyond This Point
When Red Light Is On'
Does anyone know the last time this acutally happened? Does that bridge still work?
Shawn.
The last time I can verify the bridge open from first hand knowledge is March 2001. Since I don't work on the 1 anymore, I can't supply a later date, but see no reasonwhy it shouldn't be working.
They raised the bridge to bring in and take out the Meeks Crane used for the reef car movements . I believe it was either Oct 19th, or the 26th in which I sat in traffic waiting to roll on home. It seems the TA has to run a light train over the bridge to seat the signal rails in place before resuming service.
It seems the TA has to run a light train
over the bridge to seat the signal rails in place
before resuming service.
REALLY!??!... Back in 1985 (or so) I was on
a train which stopped at 225 to watch a
raise-and-lower drill... and we barreled
on thru immediately after red signal cleared..
Then again... did 'signal rails' exist back then??
In a simplified form, running rails do more than carry wheels of trains and other loads, they also carry voltage required to shunt signal relays and they also return to earth through grounding, the 600 Volts used to power high voltage applications. If you noticed rails have a light and heavy jumper welded from one rail end to another. The heavy jumpers are third rail returns and the light ones carry signal voltage, which flows through the train axles to the ground return rail. Signal circuits are separated by Insulated joints, which are always painted red, so functions like interlocking lockouts, train positioning and retaining circuits can be used. What I believed happened on the Broadway Bridge is the bridge did not drop into place because of worn out equipment, so placing the weight of a train, as posted by another motorman earlier, tamps the contact points of the signal rail circuit into place, ensuring continuity, and turning off that red light.
I've seen it raise-and-lower many times between
(say) 1983 and 1993 with my most recent sighting
being in 1999....
There are NO trip arms associated with the OB signals. I believe that when the bridge is open the homeballs and approach signals all go to danger due to a break in the track circuit.
Zman,
I work the IRT and was told by an old timer that SB stands for "Section Break", as it relates to third rail power. He said that at one time the IRT had cars with a 600 volt bus leads under the couplers that carried third rail power train line. It was important not to bridge the break if power was pulled in the other section, as you would surly energize the section.
He also said that the IRT had a signal like the gap filler signal that would illuminate blue with a raised trip cock if the power was pulled in the following section.
Does anyone out there have any memory of this stuff?
Michael
,,,,IRT had a signal like the gap filler signal that would illuminate blue with a raised trip cock if the power was pulled in the following section.
IIRC, this could be seen just before entering Times Sqr (sb)
whilst construction was recently ongoing on the local tracks..
I heard of the section break, but this SB signal is on the IRT Flyover, which was built only about 10 years ago, long after the Hi-Vs took their final swings.
It signifies where 3rd rail power splits between the two divisions.
>>>>>>>>He also said that the IRT had a signal like the gap filler signal that would illuminate blue with a raised trip cock if the power was pulled in the following section
The rule book stated that the underground section break signals would go red underground, and purple (that's the color in the rule book, could've been blue in the field) on an elevated semaphore signal.
This miscellaneous fixed signal (sign) is on the flyover from 207 St Yard. If you're working the #1, you'll see it heading northbound. Engine Brake stated that the flyover is a recent addition and there's no mention of the sign in the current rule book. Makes you wonder what the purpose of this sign is.
By the way, have any of you seen a similar sign on the other uptown IRT flyover at Bedford Pk Blvd-Concourse Yard?
Don't remember one there, but it has been awhile. There is a sign at the bottom of the ramp warning of imminent disaster if you think of taking B Div cars up the ramp.
Hey Mike, glad you finally joined us.
Hi Alex,
It took awhile, but I decided to sign up. Heard you left us for the B, so did KevinT. He's working out of Astoria.
Michael
read in the business section of the N.Y. Times a few days ago, because of the japanese market going the way of sour milk, alot of companies are falling apart. Kawasaki is one of them. that means that if they aren't saved, we will not see any new cars from them. speaking of new cars, the R-143 project will be stopped because of lost money in the terrorist attacks. the R-160 project is on hold also. this will hurt kawasaki greatly. especially when the only places that buy their products is the USA and Japan (known for the citizens behave with frugal manners)
Whoa...the R-160 project is on hold? According to whom? The contract hasn't been put out on the street yet. Therefore, Kawasaki is under no obligation to build them or even to bid on them.
David
Thank You!, IIRC the specs aren't even completed yet!?! Correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, the R-143 project on hold?!!, I think that's a crock, they probably have a hold on the CBTC project itself but not the cars, becuase I was up to Kawasaki recently like in the past month and Cars #8109-8116 is just about done and IIRC there was about 3 more R-143 cars under tarps. Secondly, the R-143 order is suppose to run a fews years without the CBTC, so why hold the cars when they CAN run under human control.
Makes absolutely NO sense. I can understand Kawasaki having issues, but like any builder, if they started a order they are gonna finish it out BEFORE closing doors.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
It'll take lots of legal action to do that, and even then who's going to pay the workers if K.H.I. folds? (Not that I'm for Kawasaki products, but its just that I hate to see fellow NYC commuters and workers get screwed because of international scenes).
you say its crock but it is not. reading the N.Y. times, it is possible that the R-143 project can be delayed. the R-160 project(though it is not in effect), which is being formulated is on hold. the state is losing money. they can't supply MTA with the funds. terrorists fault. sit down and watch. you will see it happen.
What "KHI" originally posted, was posted as FACT, while in FACT, it is his (or her; I really don't know) OPINION/SPECULATION/CONJECTURE based on a newspaper article that may or may not have been correct, and may or may not have been interpreted correctly by "KHI."
Any delays in the R-143 program to date have nothing/zip/nada to do with the World Trade Center or anything else that affects MTA's finances. As to the future of the current capital program, MTA has already stated that it will go on as planned, even in the wake of the World Trade Center incident.
David
RIGHT!
Funds for the R-143 project have already been allocated! So the money for the R-143 project is there and has basically been spent for that!
Newspapers (Scofs), PUHLEASE!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
well i done said what i heard,which i believe. if it happens,it happens. i'll just sit back and watch because stuff like this usually does happen in the deceitful world of commerce.
"Like any builder, if they started an order they are gonna finish it out before closing doors." that don't not a thing. if the company can't finish the order because the funds aren't there then it the whole thing is screwed. if a company is under jeopardy and they are losing money, any company, will have to stop production. if they can't finish it, they can't finish it because there aren't any greens left.
The Point is that the check for the R-143s have been passed onto Kawasaki!
We'll see, I Guarantee, I'd put a paycheck down on it that the R-143s are in full swing buy this time next year! Maybe not in CBTC control but in Human Control!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
you are right. the funds went through for that project. however just because they got payed for it, don't mean they will follow through. expenses for sourced parts are not covered by what the mta pays them. if they run out of money, then they can stop the project based on their loss of funds. most likely, this project will pull through,but they can hault on it also. it has happened many times before. i have seen similar actions happen to other companies that went belly up.
Although I disagree with his (her?) conclusions, "KHI" has a point about the way NYCT pays for subway cars. They're not paid for in a lump sum. For example, in the R-46 subway car overhaul contract, payments were to be made as follows:
5% of the Gross Contract Price (GCP) after issuance of the Notice to Proceed
10% of the GCP after the Contractor's submission of and NYCT's acceptance of certain deliverables (such as manuals)
30% of the Unit Price (UP) of each car upon delivery of the car with its final Car History Book
40% of the UP upon acceptance or conditional acceptance of each car
10% of the GCP upon the first 8-car train passing its 30-day in-service test
5% of the GCP (less any liquidated damages, damages in case of delay, or claims) upon issuance of the Final Completion Certification
Now, as to termination, I'll again use the R-46 GOH contract as an example. Chapter 7 of the contract spelled out situations under which the contract could be terminated. Those situations were contractor default, convenience (meaning NYCT's choice, after which NYCT would only pay for work already done, even on cars not completed, and for some material and equipment), or excusable delay (in which case the contractor would not be held liable).
David
To add to what David has already said, during the R-46 GOH program, $15 million was still being held back by the TA, 2 years after the last car had been delivered - because of un-resolved performance issues.
I didn't hear about the R143- haven't they begun to build them already?
As for the R160, the car order I hope never comes, GOOD, let's enjoy the late 60's stock for another five years; and hope it doesn't rust out by then.
wayne
Eight R-143 cars are on NYCT property. They've been undergoing various tests for the past several months. The final phase of the testing, 30 consecutive days in passenger service without a breakdown, has not yet begun.
David
The MUCH DELAYED final phase of the testing, 30 consecutive days in passenger service without a breakdown, has not yet begun.
Did said phase of testing (30 consecutive days in passenger service without a breakdown) ever end on the R-142(A)? I seem to recall that the notion of a breakdown was redefined after a month or two. Has the initial test train passed yet?
As far as I am aware, it passed under the redefined criteria -- and no, I can't ennumerate the criteria.
David
I'm asking if it ever passed the initial criteria. (It didn't during the test phase. Has it yet?)
Let me rephrase my previous statement. I DON'T KNOW!!!!!
David
No problem! I posted my question on a public board in case anyone happened to know -- not just you. If not, I'll live.
Sorry...the question seemed to be directed at me.
In any case, Mr. Greenberger often asks pointed questions that deserve answers, but that nobody on this board seems qualified to answer. I've suggested it before, but I'll do it again: anyone who asks a question on this board that nobody here can answer should direct that question to the appropriate agency (NYC Transit or otherwise). We'd all be interested in the answer, I'm sure, but would understand if the poster chose not to share the answer with us once received.
David
IF they are like the R142As they will continue to undergoe tests for many months considering vendor problems and lack of RISMUS cataloging of parts and assemblies. Fine if you can keep a trainset going for thirty days but what if something breaks and it has to be replaced??? My fear is like the R142s...Bombardier with its vendors 'babysits' the trainsets that cost about 1.4 Mil per unit pushing them to make things work. There have been trainsets set aside for 'parts.' If Kawasaki does what CapCom, SNK and Sega have done for video games, R142As and R143s will 'be with the fishies.' The Japanese NEVER lose a war. Peter
yes they have but, their delivery could be delayed because of money. to be honest, i am not too sure if the funds for that project went through yet. if they went through, then they will continue building them and sending them. if not, then the project will be delayed. the R-160 project has not been finished put together yet,but they are stopping that project for a while. i hope i am clear on what i said. the stuff was all up in the New York Times World Business section.
Hmmm. Maybe, just maybe, we can have our cars built in America again!
Mind if I get out some chalk, mark off the perimeter of Yonkers, plant a flagpole in the middle and raise the Japanese flag? Yes? You do mind? I thought so.
-Robert King
Two college lessons about Japan were: 'Adept, adapt and adopt' along with 'Big and heavy, small and fast, pretty and expensive.' Kawasaki could have an important market IF they wanted it and were really willing to deal with U.S. vendors that TA requires. Based on the conversations in class today with reps from TA engineering IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN!!! Kaw will lose, TA will lose (with Bom.) and Redbirds will be dredged up because American Industry doesn't see the manufacture of subway cars as profitable. Peter
I'm not really sure that making subway cars profitable.
Look what happened to the streetcar building industry and then the problem that arose for the remaning streetcar systems when the existing rolling stock (PCCs) need to be replaced but all the car builders got out of the business a quarter of a century earlier. Talk about a tight squeeze - massive PCC rebuilding programmes were instituted to keep things going while R & D was conducted to design new streetcars. If that happens to the subway car industry, such as it is, New York is going to be caught in one hell of a bind.
-Robert King
here is our "SHAYRO" junker in los angeles !!! .......lol
breakin down allready !!!
rust on the sides of a 1990 cars ....
"speaking of new cars, the R-143 project will be stopped because of lost money in the terrorist attacks"
Is this for real...no R143s are coming?? -Nick
At this point, it's the speculation of the poster called "KHI."
David
Will KHI change his handle if Kawasaki Heavy Industries winds up going down the tubes?
#3 West End Jeff
possibly maybe. i am trying to change it right now how the hell do you do it?
Write to our illustrious webmaster... that's the only way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
speaking of new cars, the R-143 project will be stopped because of lost money in the terrorist attacks. the R-160 project is on hold also.
Thank god. Long live watside signals, Budd stailness steel and railfan windows. May new car orders be put off forever.
Got it wrong again, Mike. The R-143s are not dependent on CBTC and CBTC is not dependent on the R-143. they are two seperate projects that should be able to work together but either should be able to stand alone. Dittok, the R-160. If built, they will be at least 1/2 way through their predicted life before CBTC is fully implemented on the B division.
They Rule because You meet the most women on them.While working my usual on the 7 today I met not 1 ,not 2,but 3 beatiful women. Actually had one ask if we can close the door in the cab while standing rite next to me.She wanted an upclose and personal tour of my Cab.Not gonna say If I let her in or not,you guys use your Imaginations.I am against all transverse cabs because they will hurt My sex life, Not because there easier and safer.But I have heard stories of sex happening in some transverse cabs ,Anyone here with a story to share?
Not tonight, have software to write ... HOWEVER, I can tell tales of the R1/9's and turning deadheads into ... nah, this isn't the right place for THAT story. :)
But yeah, monkeysuits worked VERY nicely in the 70's too. Heh.
yes ! like the example here : ............lol!!
GO GO REDBIRDS !! >>>>>>>> SCRAP THE R -142 JUNKERS !!! ............LOL !!!
Hey were any of those girls mystical? You gotta watch out for the Dragon clips on the 7 train.
"You meet the most women on them.While working my usual on the 7 today I met not 1 ,not 2,but 3 beatiful women"
On a Redbird....Really?........What can I expect to find on an R-68 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Last night, the Q was running through the tunnel, making for a short stretch of track {between the cross south of Prince and the feed to the layup tracks at City Hall} where four trains were running at the same time at around 11PM last night: the E, N, Q, and R. It was a complete mess. What was wrong with the bridge?
There is a problem on the curve into the Canal bridge station. Seems like the concrete roadbed started cracking. This after 4 months of use. You would think that 10 years would have been enough time to get this right. That's how long this stretch was closed.
Wasn't there a similar problem in the 63rd st tunnel?
I guess this would explain the posts we had last week.....Canal Street Station is sinking.......
probably has to do with the "sinking" situation...not too plesant...if you ask me
The only thing I know that's wrong with the bridge is that the Sea Beach isn't on it. Revenge of the N
I'm hope to go into New York today from Hastings-on-Hudson and if possible I hope to ride on the R-142s. If I do I'll let you know.
#3 West End Jeff
...is now open for submissions (till 12/15/2001)
Click Here
By the way there may be some bugs in the contest upload software. You should see a thumbnail of the image you upload after it is finished. If you don't there is probably something wrong and you might want to email me and inquire if the image was received, give me your handle & the file name you uploaded so I can check.
Any restrictions on file size or picture dimensions (in pixels), Dave?
According to the link to the full descriptions of the "Photo Contest", he recommends it being less than 500K.
So at that limit, pictures can not come out so big, can they?
That depends on how much JPEG compression you're willing to use.
I'd say that 500k per image is quite generous.
As it says in the rules, please try to keep the pictures' file size under 500k. So whatever that means to you in terms of resolution...
I uploaded a file tonight, and everything seemed to be working correctly. After a lengthy period with my modem working steadily, the thumbnail appeared, so I know it worked.
It is (of course) an orange streetcar.
Do categories 1 and 2 include subway stations and bus stops, or are you looking specifically for the trains and buses themselves?
Category 6 encourages me to submit dozens and dozens of photos, in case I hit on a surprise category. Is that what you want, or should I try to be a bit selective?
Well, I don't know what the surprises are going to be yet. It depends on how many prizes I end up with to give out.
As for your first question I think a station with no train would qualify but I'm not sure that a bus stop photo with no bus would be compelling enough...
That's fair.
I don't have any bus stops with no buses -- I just included that for completeness. (I do have many station shots.)
Thanks.
I am not seeking any wins except for being the " best in the west " ( best westcoast transit photographer )
that would be fine with me .............lol
like this beauty below for example :
I very much enjoy sharing for others to see !!!
Well don't post it here, upload it to the contest.
hope i did not make anyone mad ... i posted it before ... lol !!!
Any limit on how many photos one can submit??
go to the first post click on the info ....
Read the rules.
But what about streetcars?!
-Robert King
You can count streetcars in with Non New-York subway/rapid transit.
Is it all right if i post it here as well I would like to hear others opinions of my rail / bus / transit shots ...etc...
That is what I value the most not just winning the best westcoast transit shot contest .........lol !!!
As long as you don't think it's going to influence the judging...
of cource not ...............& I thank you very much as always for this wonderful forum !!
the photos submitted toi the contest stand on their own weight independently ........( smile ) ....
of cource not ...............& I thank you very much as always for this wonderful forum !!
the photos submitted to the contest stand on their own weight independently ........( smile ) ....
Are you going to put some of these pictures on the website? Like in the Subway line descriptions and the photo rosters?
- Lyle Goldman
Depends on what I get!
I notice while riding the LIRR M-1's that whenever the train goes over a switch, the lights in the cars go out momentarily, as each car passes over a third-rail gap. Its annoying, especially when the train is pulling out of Flatbush Avenue or Penn Station, when multiple tracks changes are needed, causing the lights to go on and off numerous times.
I can't believe this is still happening in this day and age. I haven't seen this happen on the subway in at least 15 years.
What's the deal?
M-1's and M-3's are 35 years old. I can't wait to start working on the M-7's
So what? The R-32's are just as old and the Redbirds are older, but the blackouts don't happen on those cars.
They used to, when those cars were GOH'd they did away with the blinking lights. I don't believe that LIRR cars were ever GOH'd to the same extent as the subway cars were.
BTW some redbirds still do it.
Peace,
ANDEE
LIRR never took as good care of their cars like NYCT does. M1 cars have much less mileage than the subway cars. It is a disgrace. Subway cars go in and out all day sometimes 7 days a week, some 24/7. M1's at their suburban terminals lay over for at least an hour between trips.
M1's at their suburban terminals lay over for at least an hour between trips.
Yeah, but they don't do a damn thing in that time -- how likely is it that they would do repairs if they can't even empty the toilets, let alone remove the food and newspapers?
M-1s and M-3s use motor-alternators. The motor operates on 700VDC and turns an alternator that provides AC current for lights & HVAC. When the cars pass over a 3rd rail gap, the M-A drops out causing the lights togo out. When the M-A starts to turn at speed, the AC comes back. LIRR has never done a GOH type overhaul to its fleet so the primative M-A has never been replaced.
They must have upgraded the electrical equipment on Metro North, which runs similar cars, because the lights stay on when going over a gap (although the HVAC goes off, except for a small fan which stays on). The only time the lights go out is if the cars lose power for more than about a minute.
If that's the MNRR M-1s and M-3s then you are correct that they were definitely upgraded. On the otherhand the MK New Haven M-6s were built with static converters.
They must have upgraded the electrical equipment on Metro North, which runs similar cars, because the lights stay on when going over a gap (although the HVAC goes off, except for a small fan which stays on).
Totally NOT true, at least on the diesel-hauled cars for the north-of-Croton part of the Hudson Line. Those lights go off a LOT. A real lot.
Can't speak to the third-rail part of the fleet, though, if that's what you were referring to .....
I should have mentioned that I ride MU's on the New Haven line. The lights stay on even during the changeover between 3rd rail and overhead. I'm not sure of the M class - I don't ride that often, but even going back 18 years, I never noticed the lights going off (unless there was an electrical problem), so it must apply to the early M numbers.
Last winter I took my son to Mystic by Amtrack. In New Haven they changed locomotives from electric to diesel (no dual mode, they just changed the whole locomotive) and the lights were out during the whole changeover.
Actually the M-1 varies between 31 and 29 years of age depending on manufacture/delivery date; the M-3 is somewhere about 15 years old.
In London the lights go off when switching but ONLY on the side of the car on which the third-rail gap is located. This is true for commuter rail as well as underground.
wayne
>>>but ONLY on the side of the car on which the third-rail gap is located<<<
VEEEERY interesting...Hope you enjoyed your trip!
Peace,
ANDEE
According to page 16 of the 1968 MTA Annual Report: "The first 14 of the new cars, named the 'Metropolitan,' were delivered to the Long Island Rail Road in October. After testing and inspection, an eight-car train was put in revenue service at the end of the year."
So...the first M-1s just turned 33. Happy birthday :-p
David
Its funny but I guess I'm not the most observant person in the world but until I read this thread I never realized that the subways stopped doing this!!!
It happens all the time on the 7 when pulling into and out of Times Square and crossing over the tracks to the other side.
-- Kirk
Yeah, but what he's talking about is that he's very irritated with the lights continuously flickering on and off, while during a track switch on the Flushing line, the lights turn off and back on only once, and once per every 3rd rail gap.
And sometimes the lights on the M-1's don't come back on as well as the A/C. Then an MA reset has to be performed. Saturday at Jamaica station I observed an M-1 train going to Far Rockaway in the station with no lights in the front at all. This was around 4pm and it was getting dark!
More to the point, when will it be 'Lights Out' for Osama bin laden and the rest of the dirt-bag taliban swine?
On the prototype C-1 bi-level cars that the LIRR had with the FL9AC's, the lights flickered a lot over the third rail gaps out of Penn Station, but the new C-3's with the DM30AC's just has the fans turning off with the lights staying on. I am sure that the M-7's will have the same feature that the Bi-Levels have now.
I can't believe this is still happening in this day and age. I haven't seen this happen on the subway in at least 15 years.
You haven't ridden the Flushing Line recently, have you? :)
--Mark
Cars 6781-85 were delivered last night to the barn at East 180th Street.
-Stef
Any signs of 6741-6780?
Cars 6741-45 are here and were being prepped for service with 6706-10 last time I saw them.
6746-80 are not delivered as of yet. Also Cars, 6566-75 are still undelivered to the best of my knowledge.
-Stef
Prepped??? We needed an empty trainset yesterday and what we got had no crewswitches, ALL TBUs pulled and still had paper on the floor and plastic covers on the Lexan not to mention misc failures and replacement orders. I think 6700-6705 was in. Boids gotta go. Peter
Whatever. I mean to say it was being tested for "possible" service.
-Stef
I was at the 34th Street Broadway line station yesterday at about 7:00 pm, and noticed R-68 #'s 2500-2503 come through as a circle-Q, with the other half of the consist being (I think) 2760-2763 (both, obviously, in even-odd-odd-even configuration). Now I know a bunch of cars were transfered from the Concourse yard to Coney Island with the bridge flip, but I thought they were all higher-numbered units, from the 2700 series; 2500 and its mates should not be among them. Anyone know what gives?
subfan
Yes! This was discussed in a thread about a month ago. When the A/B tracks on the bridge closed, Concourse Shop kept cars 2500 - 2715 (216 cars). However, cars 2500 - 2511 are unique in that they have a bracket that the rest of the fleet does not have. The R-68s are being tested for CBTC. That equipment is being installed in Coney island. Unfortunately, the vendor for the CBTC equipment used car #2500 for a prototype and used that bracket to mount that equipment. Hence, Concourse had to give up one of the 3 4-car units with that bracket for the test and got cars 2716-2717-2719-2718 as replacements. This is only temporary.
Were are they going to test CBTC before the L line is finshed.
Robert
They wanted to see how the CBTC interfaced with the E-Cam package. Previously, it was tested with the SCM-1 controller.
Thanks for the explanation- I must have missed the original thread on the subject.
subfan
This past Sunday I was at church and after the service I walked outside to the basement level where the LIRR tracks were visible.
The location is 43 St. and 37 Av., the tracks which overpass the catenary powered tracks to Sunnyside Yard.
I've seen many LIRR trains and a few AMTRAK trains which run past here, but I've noticed something odd.
I heard a soft rumbling noise from the east, and figured it'd be the usual LIRR trains which come.
But ironically, I saw a coupled and an attached diesel loco. appeared going at a steady rate towards Manhattan!
Around a few minutes later, I think it was the same train or a different loco. pair that went back on a different set of tracks!
The paint is a little rusted from the age, and feature 2 shades of gray, one really dark, and one very light towards the center. They resemble U34CH locomotives.
Now:
1) What's the model and the descriptions of this locomotive?
2) What were they designed for?(Which trains they pulled, etc.)
3) What it was doing trundling down the LIRR tracks near 43rd St. 37 Av.?
4) Anything more I might want to know?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Maybe a fleet number would help. It could be M of W stuff or a loaner for Amtrak Holiday rush.
Well, I was too far away, and it looked like the numbers weren't even on the sides of the train.
And the gray paint looked like it was too old and it looked like as if it were peeling off.
If you know what a U34CH loco. looks like, then you can say it's similar to that.
To see what a U34CH loco. looks like, go to
Hoboken Terminal.com
And search for the links.
OK, we've tried this before with the green lights. Now here come the clear lights!
This past Sunday my mom, brother and I took the PATH to 33rd St. from JSQ.
When the train went into Emergency at 33rd, (and on off-duty trains), I see a clear light lighted on each car on the exterior.
On PA-1's and 2's, they are one of the four lights vertically found with the "red" signal light.
On PA-3's and 4's, I'm not sure where it is, but there still is a "clear light".
Also, around the middle of the platform I noticed a clear signal lighted as opposed to the red one lighted adjacent to it.
Can anyone tell me what these "clear lights" are for?
Brakes activated.
Does that relate to the green lights on PATH?
I've asked someone about the green lights and they said something about brakes have activated.
The white lights show *hand* brakes activated.
The green lights are being added to show service braking.
How are hand brakes activated on PATH?
There's a crank in the doorway at the "B" end of the cars. (Don't ask me which end it's on in a car without any cabs!) It's a lever that lies flat in the doorframe unless it's being used, so you've probably never noticed it even passing through the cars.
If you're asking what I think you're asking, wheel and ratchet at the end of the car, similar to what you'd see on a boxcar or similar freight type.
I am taking photos of the subway at night, hopefully and creating special night version of the line by line section showing the night life of the subway, so I am trying to set up a day where some of us could meet up at 8:00 and as teams go on different lines, to really get good photos. Anyone up for a day?
Subways At Night
Based on the new subtalk logo picture, Trevor Logan best be up for it :-)
I'm up! Tell me when!
Count me in to contact me via email.
Thanks
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
As we all have a lot to be thankful for this year, for just being here, I'd like to wish all my fellow Subtalkers a heathy, happy Thanksgiving. May God bless us all. And, may our stomach pumps not get clogged tomorrow. :)
Tony Mirabella
David:
How many pictures are we allowed to submit?
Read the rules.
And next time just continue the existing contest thread, it's more organized that way.
While checking out 72 St. (1/2/3) last evening, I noticed that the new platform-edge signs on the north end of the uptown platform have been installed vice-versa: the sign for the 1 & 2 locals is mounted over the express track and the sign for the 3 express is over the local track.
As if west-side riders haven't been confused enough!
And of course, the R-142 2 local arriving on the local track still said "7 Ave. Express" on its side.
It's announced as the 7th Avenue Express, too, even though the train is now programed to announce the local stations. "This is a Brooklyn bound 2 express train. The next stop is 59th Street." LOL.
And of course, the R-142 2 local arriving on the local track still said "7 Ave. Express" on its side.
Just because a line which is initally designed to run express doesn't mean it gets their signs changed when it runs local. You must've seen the train running through late night hours, and got confused, or temporarily been running local due to GO's.
P.S. The #2 line will never be mentioned or signed as "7th Av. Local".
The 2 is listed as the 7th Avenue local on the current map and on station signs. In case you were unaware, the 2 is currently scheduled to run local at all times, and before 9/11 it was scheduled to run local every night.
The major advantage to electronic signs over rollsigns is flexibility. There's no reason the 2 had to be encoded as the 7 AV EXPRESS. It could have been encoded as the 7 AV (blank), where (blank) is replaced with LOCAL or EXPRESS, depending on which stops are programmed. (The R-142's do have local stops programmed, and 2 trains do correctly announce them.) The same should hold for all other lines.
Many passengers are still used to the 2 running express. Now more than ever, it's important for announcements to be accurate.
So in this case, are all three trains running down the 7th Av. Line running local?
No. The 3 is running express. The 2 is scheduled as a 100% local, but in fact many 2 trains run express. As I posted earlier, I transferred this morning at 72nd Street from a 2 on the local track to a 2 on the express track. The 2 on the local track, being an R-142 trainset, announced itself as an express; the 2 on the express track didn't announce itself at all (as far as I heard).
I spotted 6711-6720 on the 2 at 96st going uptown. BTW, it was a biatch today, all the trains from 10-3 downtown were skipping 137, 125, 116, 110, and 103. I took some pics at Columbia, and I didn't know that the downtown trains were on a GO. So I took the 1 to 145, got a GO transfer from the uptown booth, crossed the street to the downtown booth and handed it in and got in for free. The T/O made an announcement along with the conductor saying due to track work at 125 etc. But as we went through the 137 underground yard, all I saw was a worktrain layed up on the right most track against the wall (if you're going downtown). No activity at any of the stations, either a lunch break, or done early an hour early (impossible).
If you have the choice, take de boid. Peter
Source- Official Brochure
E- 53rd street, local on Queens Blvd at Night.
F- 63rd street, express on Queens Blvd all times
G-5am to 830 pm ends at Court Square. All other times extended to Continental running as Queens Blvd Local. This includes weekends.
R- No change
V- Second Ave to Continental via 53rd street. Local on Queens Blvd and local in Manhattan.Runs weekdays 6am to midnight.
No mention was made of the Q. I am **guessing** Q will be no change.
New Walking transfers, MetroCard only within two hours:
Lex/59 and Lex/63
Court Square G and Courthouse Square 7
Stations
23/Ely-E and V (G at Court Square, 7 at Courthouse Square)
Queens Plaza-,E,V,R.Nights and weekends there is also the G
53rd/5th- E and V.
I got my brochure at Yankee Stadium on the D.
I do not have sufficient copies to mail one to anyone who asks so please do not ask-sorry:-(
>>>>>F- 63rd street, express on Queens Blvd all times
Now that makes perfect sense. The Queens Blvd corridor has sorely needed the resumption of midnight express service. For those of you that do not ride the QB lines at night, they are pretty crowded even at 1 am.
And the F crews need a break.
Too bad, the E crews thought they were getting to go express again.
This will last 2 years tops.
IMO, E express would have made more sense. Now there's no express service at night out of Queens Plaza and no local service out of 21st Street (ever).
I guess people who go from 21st to local stops short of Roosevelt will have to be educated to walk over to QP for the locals. Those getting on at Roosevelt Island are just screwed. Ditto in reverse -- how do you get from Steinway to Roosevelt Is? You can't get there from here!
Anyone catching the F by mistake in Manhattan will find themselves rocketing to Roosevelt Ave. and having to double back.
Yes, that is a slight problem. I expect to see a fair amount of backtracking at Roosevelt and 47-50 (and possibly even via the MetroCard transfer at Lex, if the R pulls in first).
It's not like that was a standard service. It was only during G.O's that this existed. This is still an improvement over regular service
It's not like this is a new situation. Similar to the E and Van Wyck Blvd.
Can you explain further?
They need to build a walking transfer with 21 queensbridge (B,Q, or S or F), Queens plaza (E,R, maybe G, maybe F) and Queensboro (N,7) and with 21st-ely ave (E, F or V). 21st ely (Citibank building) is 2 blocks away from Queensboro.
Well I did ride Q.B. Line at nite hour, few time mainly at 2 or 3 AM and majority of the E F Service are less crowded but the train are very slow which upset most rider. Since the F will again run express like they did back in 96 and be4. I guess that majority E and G rider will be using F to get home earlier.
I saw the brochures at Union Turnpike (PT booth) this morning. Jamaica-Van Wyck supposely has them as well. At 23/Ely there is a room full of green-tinted hand-outs for the G line that mentions the V. And posters in English, Spanish and Polish.
I think posters will be plastered on the walls by this weekend. If people will read them before 12/16 is another story altogether
There are ads on all the QB station entrances for it as well. I got my brochure today.
i got a copy of the brochure actually. its nice and it explains exactly what will happen on Dec 16th
There will still be the usual mass confusion.
That means weeknights 830pm-MN: Local has all three services.
No, the E will run local on the overnight hours when the R is not running. Queens Blvd. will only have 2 local services running at a given time.
I think he means the G,R and V from 8:30-midnight
Yeah, I think you might be right. Duh.
Actually the G and the V will not be running together alng Queens Blvd. Whatever time it is.
The V runs from 6AM to Midnight. The G runs to 71/Continental from 8:30PM to 5AM. Notice the overlap?
I think the problem with running G,R,V together is present only during the rush. Evenings the R runs considerably less frequent, and presumably the V will as well.
Which is why it is so stupid to complain about the loss of G service to Forest Hills during middays and rush hours. The world isn't gonna end if you have to stand up, walk off the train at Court Square, walk (you know, put one foot in front of the other), get on another train, and sit down again to complete your trip. Look, we even gave you a moving walkway! Now you can stand and let us move you instead!
Now, at other times, I can see why we wouldn't want to transfer. The three services make sense. The only thing now is to reverse the E and F late nights. The F should be the local and E express.
I thought both the E and F ran local in Queens during late nights.
They do now, but beginning next month, the G will run to Forest Hills nights and weekends. Three local services on the same line in the middle of the night is overkill. (Two local services plus one express service is probably overkill, too, but the G was extended for political reasons, the E and F are both needed to cover 53rd Street and 63rd Street. I suppose the F could terminate at 21st Street with the G continuing to 179th Street, but I sure wouldn't want to be the C/R on the first F train of the night to terminate at a dead-end.)
They run local now. But after 12/16 the F will run express on the overnight.
In the good old days, BOTH the "E" AND "F" ran express, all the time; the "G" (actually, the "GG") ran local, and the fill-in was the "EE", which is pretty much the equivalent of today's "R".
wayne
I think at one time, the N also ran local along Queens Blvd.
Yup - if you enter Union Turnpike via the walkway down to the Interboro, look across the Interboro to the closed entrance on the other side, and you'll see an (N) symbol on the entrance sign.
E-F-G-N -- all four of them stopped there for a brief time.
The N did run on Queens Blvd about 15 years ago or so, The R ran to Astoria.
It did but not at night. Whichever line runs to Forest Hills, whether it be the N or R, does not run at night. At one time, they both did, but it didn't last long.
Several years ago the G ran at night to 179 St. During day it went to 71 Ave. At the time the F went up QueensBridge. TA has done alot of changes with their E and F line.
I remember reading Subtalk posts about this. I think someone said that the G was very empty during the day below Court Sq, but at night it was always packed, especially up to 179th. It wasn't long ago that I remember seeing this on the map.
Before the EE it was the Brighton Local
EE never went near the Brighton Line. The closest it came was terminating at Whitehall St.
Before the EE when the connection from the 60th Street Tunnel to the the Queens IND in 1955 opened. The Brighton Local ran Mon-Fri 6A-7PM out to Forest Hills as a local
Hmmmm, so an old service pattern returned when the circle-Q operated from from Coney Island to Forest Hills from 9/17 to 10/27.
Yup the Brighton Local was the 1st Southern Division train to operate from Bdwy to Forest Hills in 1955 using Standards
It was the non-designated QT in 1955, the RR around 1960, the EE in 1967, the N in 1976, then the R in the 1980's.
the QT in 55 was actually the "1" Brighton Beach Local and it did run some triplex on it but very rarely
Why?
Someone else pointed this out and I agree. At nights, there will NEVER be express service out of Queens Plaza. Also, there will NEVER be local service from 21st Street at any time.
Notice that anyone transferring from the 4/6 (at night) will be stuck on a local until at least Roosevelt Avenue. If the E ran express and the F local, there would still be a transfer to the local (G) at Queens Plaza for those bound for local stops.
My guess is that the E is running local and the F express to avoid having to issue service change announcements to E riders. With the TA's plan, only F and G (and shuttle) riders really need to pay attention (although E and R riders might be interested in what's going on around them).
I would think the F would run express in Queens 24/7 is that the riders at local stations would not ask: why do we have direct service to 63rd St, during midnite hours only and not at other times? This way, they never have it!
Grr. The point is they never had it to lose in the first place.
There is also a cost issue. On a typical 3 trip e ride going local may not put an e crew over 8 hours or at least put it over 8 hours for the full amout of extra time involved.
For an F crew that extra time going local, is extra overtime!
On the midnights you really are not going to lose that much time and be assured that there will be GOs to drive all 3 lines crazy anyway.
Never say never, it will bounce back and bite you on the ass
Do you think they can run the G, R, and V lines all at once at any time? If anyone does, I'd invite them to go to Continental and just watch the congestion with their own two eyes, and see what is really going on.
To avoid a log jam 71 Ave, the V and the R should go to 179 Street during the day and the G at night. The waiting from 63 Drive to 71 Ave can be frustrating.
You will be transfering congestion from Contintental to 179........you will be wasting all those relay tracks in the hole at COntinental......you are having 3 services terminating at 179 St...........and for the ************th time: THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CARS!!!!!!!!!!
At 179 there wouldn't be as many people left on the trains as at 71 Ave. Also at 179 There would be 4 tracks to turn trains. 71 Ave just has 1
Good point. For many years, 179 was able to handle both E and F trains. 179 can easily accomodate the V or R train.
The question isn't whether 179th Street could accommodate more trains. The question is whether there are enough cars to be able to run additional trains to 179th Street while maintaining the same headways and train lengths on the rest of whatever line got sent there. The answer is an emphatic "NO."
David
The question is whether there are enough cars to be able to run additional trains to 179th Street while maintaining the same headways and train lengths on the rest of whatever line got sent there.
They are not even maintaining the same headways and train lengths that ran on the Queens Blvd line 45 years ago. :-)
the 179 complex can store at least 16 8-car R46s
Also I want those express tracks to be used for something other than train storge. I have a map from 1988 that shows R trains running local to 179 and F run express in both directions during the day and local at night. If they could do it back then why can't they do it now.
actually rumor among F motormen is F will remain local as there will be a trial of running some Es to 179. and i assume that 2 local services would make no damn sense. but MTA never makes any sense. they only want dollars lol!
I don't think the intervals on any of the 3 after 830pm are sufficient to cause problems. If they can handle 2 service during rush hour, this should be no problem in the late evening.
You're missing the point. THEY CAN'T HANDLE TWO TRAINS AT CONTINENTAL AT RUSH HOUR, OR EARLY EVENING.
Go to Continental next Friday between 6-9 pm and tell me what you see. Then respond to my post.
< THEY CAN'T HANDLE TWO TRAINS AT CONTINENTAL AT RUSH HOUR, OR
EARLY EVENING. >
They have been doing so since 1955, and will continue to.
This is for Steve8AVEXP and any others who might be interested. I talked with my buddy #1 Brighton Express Bob last night and he said if I am going to New York next October to count him in. OK Steve, since you go to NY every October, here is our chance to invade and take over the city. In fact, it is not too early to start thinking about a big bash of railfanners ruling New York for a long weekend. Any one interested?
Excerpt from The Chief-Leader:
TWU Pres. R. Toussaint settled his lawsuit with the NYCTA over his firing in 1998 and will receive apx. $45K as a substitute for back pay. In addition to restoring him to his former title of Track Worker, the TA arranged for the payment to be tax-free, updated his seniority and pension benefits and withdrew the disciplinary charges that led to the firing. Toussaint originally filed his lawsuit seeking $1.5 million.
He may need that senority. A lot of people are only willing to give ND one shot at a big contract. I am not a ND fan but this is not the time to expect big numbers.
Track work is good work.
THIS JUST IN
just want to wish everyone on nycsubway.org and dave a good holiday! happy thanksgiving to all. And happy Railfanning too. lol
DETAILS AT 11.
And a Happy Thanksgiving to you too!
:-) Andrew
Happy Thanksgiving To You and Yours!
Regards,
The TransiTALK Family
www.transitalk.com
For 5 in the morning it is really busy.Anyway happy Thanksgiving.
Really busy where?
I'm SubTalking because I'm also RadioWeatherTalking :-)
I can't hear you Todd ... I'm in Stoughton, MA for the holiday ....
--Mark
Some of us have to work today. So we're talking transit before we go work it.
Happy Thanksgiving to all SubTalkers and their families.
Regards,
Bill "Newkirk"
Happy Thanksgiving! Luckily, I'll be making double time and a half both today and tomorrow! I hope it's not all "Blood Money"!
While taking PATCO home yesterday I noticed that the e/b platform of the Franklin Square station had been obscurred by one of those new "animated" advertisments (the ones that use the flip book effect with the trains motion.) It looked pretty cool, although i didn't really have a good view of it from where I was sitting. I heard some people behind me talking about it. I guess that it is furfilling its goal as an advertisment by having people take notice of it. Does anyone know when this was instaled and if there is another ad on the w/b platform? It's always good to see the PA raking in more revenue. I guess they really needed it after that last fare hike.
It's been there for at least a couple months.
i didn't really have a good view of it from where I was sitting
You can't see it properly from the railfan seat.
The railfan seat was taken, I was sitting directly behind the operator's booth. On a good note the railfan seat did free up at Broadway. :)
I was driving around camden today in an effort to visit the Battleship New Jersey and I was frequently comming accross construction for the new light rail line. Now the route of this line completely escapes me. First I saw it around the Broadway transportation centre heading south east and then I saw it again like 4 blocks south and west again heading southeast. What is the route this line is suposted to follow and how on earth does it get from pavonia yard, accross rt 30 and then into downtown. When this flops I'll bet that state officials use this as an example to torpedo any future transit expansion in south jersey
It runs next to CRSAO from Pavonia over rt 30, Federal St and 11th St, then diverges at Mickle and goes under CRSAO, heading west to the Rand Transportation Center (PATCO's Broadway station). After crossing Broadway it veers northwest at a 45 degree angle to 4th St, takes 4th north to Cooper and Cooper west to Delaware Ave, where it turns south toward its terminus.
I uploaded photos of the ROW taken Aug 12 from Pavonia to Mickle Blvd on a slow-loading Tripod site. Thumbnails of photos of the Camden sites taken on Nov 4 are up.
So it travels on the old PRSL viaduct?
Yes. Same ROW, separate track, from Pavonia to 11th Street.
Is there any way to force the MTA to build new tracks, short of suing or paying out of your pocket? Also if I did pay out of my pocket would I have to do the whole biding thing and do it like a government entity or like a private individual?
I thought April Fools day was in April.
One would have to deal with the appropriate local governmental entity (City of New York, Nassau County, etc.). One proposing to fund rail construction on his/her own would have to be incredibly wealthy and be able to prove an ability to fund the project to completion.
David
Those guys would laugh you out of their offices, pronto. Only a wealthy individual like Donald Trump or Bill Gates would get their serious attention, and even then, there would be stonewalling to prevent anything from happening until a.) the political favorites are in place to get their cut of the action b.) the right contractors are in place to milk the profits dry out of the deal, and c.) the real estate interests and others with connections are set to make a real killing. In short, if the graft machine is up and running, with the money to fuel it, sure. Otherwise, forget it. That is how business is done in the rotten apple.
I finally rode on a train of R-142As on the #6 line today. I boarded car #7233 and worked my way up to car #7231 to see what the railfan window was like. The railfan window stunk but I have some good things to say about the R-142s. The cars were quiet and I found the bench seat to be at least semi-comfortable. The interior was nice and bright. The cars were also smooth in their operation. They also rode reasonably well. The storm doors are relatively easy to open. The car that I was on (#7231) had scratchitti on one window and there was a little graffiti on one door. I do have a carp or two about the R-142s. The door chimes are too weak and too short in duration in my own opinion. The two chime notes are stacatto and too low pitched to be meaningful. They should use the older but more effective long duration door chimes used on the R-44/46/62/68s on these cars. Also the door chimes begin to sound after the doors begin to close. Other than that I think that the R-142s are much better than the "Redbirds" that they are replacing. I think that once they get the kinks worked out of these cars I think they're going to be the best cars that have ever been place into service in the New York City subway system.
#3 West End Jeff
wow. you are long over due. go ride the 2 line now. there a difference.
I hope to rode the R-142s on the #2 line within the next few weeks.
#3 West End Jeff
Whats with the 2 line other than those other R-142s?
There could still be a few "Redbirds" remaining on the #2 but I'm not sure.
#3 West End Jeff
There are still lots of Redbirds. Enjoy 'em while you can.
I'm sure that it is going to be hard for me to go back to riding a "Redbird" after I've ridden the R-142s. However for nostalgia sake I can choose to ride a train of "Redbirds" just for the experience of what it ysed to be like while there are some "Redbirds" in service.
#3 West End Jeff
When you ride a R142 with a blown airbag (excuse me: under supervision, 'airspring') and you're sitting next to a 'homey' with an overmodulated Walkman, close your eyes and dream: it's a Redbird.
How many R-142s have you ridden on that have had blown airsprings and what does it feel like or sound like? Lastly which cars do you have knowledge of that have blown airsprings?
#3 West End Jeff
a blown airbag? wow thats a first
I'm sure it won't be the last time an R-142 blows an airbag.
#3 West End Jeff
It can happen and there are safety-wired valves undercar that can be pulled to empty out the other 'air springs' so the car is level. The little mutants that vandalise the system haven't discovered about 'poking the bag with a knife' yet. Peter
Does this mean if the air springs fail on one side of the car they dump the air out of the airsprings for the other side so that the cars can remain level.
#3 West End Jeff
If one leaks and the car is not stable, the system will not compensate so if the ride is really bad, an RCI will be called in and he will break the inspection wires on the air spring valves, pull the handles and the car will sit flat on the trucks aka Redbird. Peter
Interesting, so if an R-142 blows an airbag a.k.a. an airspring and if the car is riding poorly enough they'll set it up to ride like a "Redbird". I always wanted to ride an R-142/R-142A that rides like a "Redbird". Is it still quiet at least if there is a blown airbag?
#3 West End Jeff
It's not going to be setup to ride like a redbird...venting the air springs is just an RCI fix to keep the car in service simulating the Redbird ride. One good thing about R142s is that it is always sealed and noise deterrent. I still have to ask about 'the fix' but my guess is that replacement is the only option. Peter
but it can be repaired. its like a tire.
The 'bags' are built more like reinforced tire sidewalls. If there is a visible leak (47 psi) I doubt there is a repair kit but I will ask. R142 remains so 'new tech' that the instruction manual doesn't really exist. Peter
there is a difference between that one and the 6 line from the ground up look them out.
I believed the 7231-35 set was involved in the subway pushing at Grand Central last week.
I'm the lucky one to ride the car that ran over somebody. I hope that it isn't a bad omen for me when I ride the R-142s. By the way, I was wearing a black hood on my head and some people said to me that I look like a monk with the hood. A conductor on the inbound Hudson Line train yesterday thought that I was getting off at 125th St. when he saw my hood. I seemed a bit surprised when I told him that I was getting off at Grand Central.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm the lucky car inspector on #2 doing undercar who was told that my lead car ran over somebody. During inspection, we spray detergent solution and wipe clean valves, fittings, hoses, connectors, brake TBUs and everything else. I found no body chunks. Peter
Wasn't that a R-62 I saw on the news?
At grand central with it's doors open and not moving and alot of police tape!
It is possible that the train involved in the pushing incident consisted of R-62s rather than R-142s.
#3 West End Jeff
You might want to look up some online news agency and maybe get a pic and get the train's number.
It was an R-142A. seen it on fox the day it happened
Goodday New York- are we talking about that homeless bum who push a women under the train and then ran for and some black guy ran after him and caught him and wresled him to the floor and tryed to tie the bum with his tie but he couldn't.
i guess. possibly maybe.
It's not necessary that the WTC site be rebuilt to 110 floors (which, floor-wise, was much higher than the current record holder, the 80-some Petronas towers of Kuala Lumpur).
The world's tallest building requires subways in the basement in that they imply occupation by huge numbers of people on a relatively small footprint. To get this huge number of people up, you have to transfer them to vertical subways to get to their final destination. And this huge number of people transferring to this vertical subway has to be gotten there efficiently. Very tall buildings and parking lots do not go together.
I am one of those who thinks we should go a mile high someplace (about 400 floors) in Manhattan. The only real place to do this is over the Penn Yards. So. Think of it as an extension of the Javits Center, sufficiently large to hold both the ABA and AMA conventions simultaneously (American Bar Association, American Medical Association, and the two are the absolutely largest conventions in the world; no city can hold both simultaneously, and only Vegas and Manhattan can hold one of them if every member shows up).
Such a thing needs to be understood also as a theme park. If you build it, they will come.
"The World Tallest building requires subways in the basement"
Where the hell did you get that.No tall bulding requires a subway underneath.It just requires some acess by transportation(The 1,9 and Path was already there when the towers was built).
Okay, I'm flexible - build it -there- if wimpy Silverstein gets his wishes downtown.
If you must build a tall building, put it in the middle of an unpopulated area, say, in the middle of Pennsylvania somewhere. It WILL be attacked in the future by some crazy nut, and when it comes down, wouldn't it be better for it to topple onto some nearby cows and cornfields, not Penn Station and MSG?
You picked the wrong landmarks. I'm sure many on this board wouldn't mind seeing the current Penn Station and MSG vanish off the face of the planet (albeit, of course, not via terrorism).
Well, if a charter plane of terrorists crashed there when it was empty, then it would be cause for massive celebrations!
I was born in central PA---Harrisburg, and there are quite a few people there. About 3 million, actually. If your gonna build it, build it in the middle of southern new jersey. that way it will just fall into swamp.
Harrisburg is a nice place, I passed by it while taking a road trip thru PA a few weeks ago. There are a bunch of other large populated areas also (Pittsburg, Philadelphia, etc).
But damn there is so much empty space in Pennsylvania, it seems like most of the trip I was staring at cornfields, trees, hills, or some combination of the three. Of cource Jersey has empty space also, but I think Pennsylvania should win some sort of prize for wide open space, at least in the Northeast US.
It's called mountains. New York has lots of them too. Ever drive I-86 (aka NY 17) west of Corning -- or, for that matter, NY 17 through Delaware County?
Some would consider a giant tower toppling into MSG to be an improvement.
It WILL be attacked in the future by some crazy nut,
Given that the number of buildings toppled by terrorism in NYC history is pretty much 2 out of who knows how many buildings built in NYC, it doesn't seem to be a big issue.
Anyway, Bin laden had a hangup with the WTC for some reason nobody knows. If we didn't wimp out the first time around and had done what we're doing now back then, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But then, Clinton saved us all, right?
I would try building for example 2 125 story towers at the site where the World Trade Center stood and for affect have spires on the buildings.
#3 West End Jeff
build it. sure. good luck renting it though, unless you include huge basketball type escape pods that can fall from the upper floors and bouce around a bit before everyone it emerges safe...
(hey, that idea's no crazyier than a 400 floor building...)
Up here in Albany, we have ONE 55 floor "skyscraper" downtown and the hottest thing is PARACHUTES! I kid ya not. Ordinary, old fashioned round parachutes for sale (that I expect would likely head straight for the building if used) ... wonder if they're sold in executive gold color? :)
Nah ... it's a state office building so the parachutes will all be made out of red tape :-)
Hahahahaha ... yeah. OGS, Health Department and a few smallish agencies are up there. And AMAZINGLY, everyone's got a dose of the willies up there as though any terrorists ever HEARD of Smallbany much less know there's anything taller than a tent up here. I used to work on the 21st floor and maintained our transmitters up on the roof for a thing called "NY-SCAN" ... a C-SPAN" like channel that Padre Cuomo killed. But these folks are just SO full of themselves up there.
Yeah,Empire State Plaza[Vampire Wait,Slauter]
>>> the hottest thing is PARACHUTES! <<<
I have seen news items about the "Executive Parachutes" which are supposedly effective above the 10th Floor. I wonder how effective they would be jumping from above several burning floors. Would the air currents around the burning floors pull them back into the fire? If I were an executive on a high floor, I might think of having one of those things on hand, but I would take sky diving lessons also to know how to use a parachute.
Tom
I wouldn't bet a building's financial success on observation deck take (though the top of the ES building is effectively gravy since the space is otherwise useless), but anyway, the technology exists to build a 2,000 foot office tower, the real estate need is, well, real :) And NY sure could use a nice set of towers at the bottom to bring up the skyline. I don't think filling it would be a problem - You'd at minimum get a lot of antenna customers, and they take up space (ever see a TV transmitter?)
Anyway, I still think a record breaking tower or two can, and should be built. IMHO, the 4 short buildings proposal drips of the typical wussiness that this country has had in virtually everything for the last decade of so.
Build exactly what was there before with structural imporvements and possibly better escape/evacuation emthods, nothing can replace what was there, thatswhy just put back what they took
To start, I agree with your opinion on the Petronas Towers as not being the tallest in the world. We both seem to disagree with the International Commission on Tall Buildings, which rates building height based on highest architectural feature versus highest occupied floor. I feel highest occupied floor is a better measure of engineering accomplishment.
A vertical subway is quite an interesting concept. As it was a hundred years ago, the height we can build is limited not by engineering, but by moving people. There are two limiting factors on moving people vertically: 1) a limit to how long someone will stand in an elevator, and 2) a limit to what forces they will endure.
A vertical subway might ameliorate the first factor, as being seated might help people be willing to stay in the elevator longer. However, the forces people are willing to endure in a vertical subway probably aren't any different than an elevator or a on an airplane. Unlike a standard, horizontal subway, you are still traveling parallel to the gravitational force.
There's been lots of talk about what will be rebuilt.
No, tall buildings dont make economic sense, and Im not the one footing the bill. For me to demand a structure higher than the trade centers would be as silly as demanding a six-track alignment for the Second Avenue Subway; wed like both, but neither make financial sense.
However, I feel whatever is rebuilt on the site must be more prominent than what stood on the site before, even if it means subsidy. Its that important. A National landmark was taken from us on September 11th. To show the terrorists that they cannot steal from us, that we are back stronger than before, we must replace the landmark on the same site. Too many landmarks have been taken from New York in the past. We cannot lose another.
What are prominent about four, 50-story buildings? It doesnt sound like anything. I am sorely disappointed in the rebuilding plan. You might as well build a strip mall on the site. Yes, four 50-story buildings can accommodate the same if not more people, taking full advantage of the transit infrastructure in place. But lots of Cities have 50-story buildings. Only the greatest City had not one but two, 110-story buildings.
In the past, men making business decisisons took landmarks from us. The destruction of Penn Station was engineered to improve the balance sheets of the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Dodgers (and Im a Yankees fan here) were taken out of Brooklyn to the land of supposed opportunity. Now, pure evil has taken away a piece of our City, and men in business suits have two choices. Metaphorically speaking, they can rebuild the old Pennsylvania station, or the new one. Which one would our descendants prefer?
MATT-2AV
A National landmark was taken from us on September 11th.
The Pentagon was damaged, not destroyed. As for the WTC, it was an eyesore, a blot on the New York skyline. Like everyone else, I regret that its demise came about in such a tragic manner, but we now have the opportunity to rebuild in an economically rational, architecturally pleasing way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's fine. Many people disagreed with the architecture of the towers. Many more disagreed with the architecture of that era in general ;)
I was ambivalent about the towers. Whatever lack of architectural appeal they possibly had was ballanced by their prominance as a landmark, at least in my opinion. Even the old Penn Station had its critics too.
I never believed the towers should be rebuilt exactly as before. We have to move on. And it would be just creepy.
All jokes aside, I feel strongly that whatever we do build must be as prominent or more prominent than what was there before. How else to stick it to the evil doers? It is also an opportunity to blend that prominence into the skyline (something that wasn't done before). I feel plastic 50-story buildings is akin to the new Penn Station; you have taken away a landmark, and replaced it with nothing.
Ghery is one of my favorite architects these days, but I don't know how well one of his peces would do there. He is a master for blending in to the existing structures of different architectural eras, though. What do you think?
MATT-2AV
Ghery is one of my favorite architects these days, but I don't know how well one of his peces would do there. He is a master for blending in to the existing structures of different architectural eras, though. What do you think?
Well, since you asked... IMHO, Ghery gives architecture a bad name. Typical of his noted buildings are such monstrosities as the Experience Music Project (Seattle) and the Weisman Building (Minneapolis), and one of the hotel towers constructed in Barcelona for the 1992 Olympics. Rather than blending buildings into their surrounding styles, he adds garish acoutrements that stand out enough that you no longer notice the disparity in style of the surrounding buildings. What is needed for that site is a style that will exude a quiet aura of peacefulness, stylistically uniform at its core (perhaps surrounding a small memorial park) but which will blend with the surrounding structures when viewed from outside the perimiter. It also must be a fiscally prudent structure, which in the economic climate of the forseeable future means several buildings, not necessarily of uniform height but all within a range that blends with the surrounding structures rather than overwhelming them or being overwhelmed by them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree. Gehry's buildings tend to be all flash and no substance. An architect friend of mine who visited Gehry's Guggenheim Museum in Barcelona said the structure, while looking nice on postcards, is horribly detailed and sloppily constructed.
New WTC buildings designed by Lord Norman Foster or Satiago Calatrava would be much more appropriate, perhands with a memorial designed by Tadao Ando.
Rebuilding the WTC exactly as it was before, as some have suggested, would be just plain creepy. It would be like cloning a deceased family member. Besides, the original WTC was architecturally pretty horrible to begin with. We have an opportunity to do much better now.
I can understand the reasons for wanting to see 110-story towers built on the site in one form or another, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Developers build skyscrapers to make money, pure and simple, and I think it will be a while before anybody is willing to risk their fortune on another 100+ story tower. This is not to say that super-tall skyscrapers -- in New York, Chicago, or elsewhere -- will never be built again, but at this time and in this economy it's just not viable.
I'd personally like to see maybe a single tower in the 80-story range and three shorter towers in the 50-story range. While not as tall as the original WTC, it would still be tall enough to become a landmark on the skyline, and potentially could be a very nice urban space. The inspiration here should be more Rockefeller Center than the first WTC.
-- David
Chicago, IL
> Guggenheim Museum in Barcelona
Bilbao. Wanted to get up there myself when I was in Spain but it's a long distance from either Barcelona or Madrid (at least 6 hrs by train).
-Dave
Oops, my bad. I was probably thinking Barcelona because that's where Calatrava has done a number of notable projects.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, since you asked... IMHO, Ghery gives architecture a bad name. Typical of his noted buildings are such monstrosities as the Experience Music Project (Seattle) and the Weisman Building (Minneapolis), and one of the hotel towers constructed in Barcelona for the 1992 Olympics.
I was quite impressed by the Experience Music Project building - not least because the monorail runs right through it! Of course, the building is in the Seattle Center with its hodgepodge of structures, rather than in a downtown per se. Even so, it's an unforgettable structure, and something like it would be quite an addition to New York.
"Well, since you asked... IMHO, Ghery gives architecture a bad name..."
I guess that answers my questions. Jeez. I'm not going to argue the merits of Ghery's architectural style. First, I am the anti-architect (engineer), so I'm not skilled to do so. Second, such a debate would be subjective, as it pertains to style. Third, he was the 1999 the recipient of the American Institute of Architect's Gold Medal.
I realize that he has many opponents, but I find the manner in which an old modernist like Ghery expresses emotions through structures with the so-called organic style. Manhattan is so inorganic, it could provide a nice juxtaposition.
"What is needed for that site is a style that will exude a quiet aura of peacefulness, stylistically uniform at its core (perhaps surrounding a small memorial park) but which will blend with the surrounding structures when viewed from outside the perimiter"
Here is where I disagree. Why must the new structures be so camouflaged? Monuments are often built to be seen from a distance. Although unintentional, the trade centers became a monument for the power of New York.
The reverse is also true. Had the Empire State been built at 42nd Street, would it be as powerful a symbol as it is today? Most certainly not. The very fact that 34th Street never became the center of gravity (as intended by its builder) is what makes the building such a universally appealing sight. It stands out amidst lower structures.
Would New York have been a better place if the Empire State were two, fifty story buildings tucked away closer to midtown?
Moreover, downtown has been built up around the trade centers, with numerous structures approaching fifty stories. To be prominent, the towers must be substantially taller.
Yes, more work can be done on the architectural style, but whatever style is selected, the structure must be prominent.
"It also must be a fiscally prudent structure, which in the economic climate of the foreseeable future ..."
Why? Economics was the same excuse used by Alger, Moses, and Bliss for their metropolitan unworthiness. Economics goes in cycles, and I expect an upward trend sooner than the talking down heads. Metaphorically speaking, dont we owe it to future generations to try and construct an old Penn Station instead of a new one?
MATT-2AV
>>>Ghery is one of my favorite architects these days, but I don't know how well one of his peces would do there. <<<
I pass by the construction site of the Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles regularly. As you can see in this picture, there is a certain resemblance to ground zero in the construction. :-)
Tom
Pretty funny ;-)
Thanks for posting the picture, but I can't get the link to work!
MATT-2AV
Copy and paste the URL into the address line and hit enter.
http://www.geocities.com/erezam/frankghery2.jpg
Yeah, it does look like ground zero, but I think it's really pretty cool, in that you can already see how it expresses an organic quality.
You know, if you want to make that link active, you can just type:
< A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/erezam/frankghery2.jpg" > Click Here (or whatever text you want to make active)
< /A >
MATT-2AV
Um, I purposely typed the URL without making it a link because it wouldn't work that way.
Didn't you read my instructions on how to view it?
>>> You know, if you want to make that link active, you can just type: <<<
That is what I had in my post which did not work. As I understand the problem, Geocities will not allow an external reference to the pictures on its site. When you follow the link, there is an external reference from site where the link was posted. When you paste the URL in your browser there is no external reference.
Tom
Hi,
I live in Starrett City - Brooklyn. What's the quickest way to get to LaGuardia (besides a car). Please reply here or email me at saturnjt20@aol.com
Thanks and Happy Holidays!
To LGA Airport:
B83 bus northbound on Pennsylvania Av to Alabama & Jamaica Avs.
then
J train Jamaica bound to Sutphin Blvd.
then
JetBlue airport bus at the LIRR terminal to LaGuardia Airport (bus costs extra).
If "thrifty", then after the J to Sutphin:
E train to Roosevelt Av.
then
Q33 bus to LGA.
Hey thanks for your info. How long is the commute?
Via the Jet Blue bus, travel time is approx. 1 hour 10 mins during off-peak hours. If going via Roosevelt Av., add on about 30 mins.
Would anyone mind, if the MTA has no problems, posting all the codes and their respective designations for the R-44 and R-46 consists?
BTW today I saw a Brooklyn bound R train at Lexington Avenue, just saying
R | BAY RIDGE/95 ST
The R I was on today (Queens bound) said:
R | BROADWAY LCL | FOREST HILLS | 71 AV
At least it is straightforward and easy to understand.
#3 West End Jeff
Today is Thanksgiving in the United States, a day of both celebration and prayer that traces its origin to a festive gathering of white settlers and Native Americans held in Plymouth, Massachusetts some time in the fall of 1621. Like Americans today, they gathered together in friendship, mourning their losses during the previous year but celebrating their own survival and their hopes for the future; like Americans today, they gave thanks to G-d for the blessings of life, and offered up prayers that they might live in peace and harmony with each other and with the world around them.
One of the blessings that we have is being able to look back at our past, seeking lessons that can guide us in the future. Looking back on the gathering in 1621, we see people whose hopes and dreams were not unlike ours; looking ahead, I believe we may safely assume that future Americans will share these same hopes and dreams as well, for really they are the hopes and dreams not only of Americans but of almost everyone in the world. Making these dreams a reality is not easy; as Americans we've been working toward that goal for nearly 400 years and we've still got a long way to go. At times it may appear to be a fool's errand - "Peace and harmony? Get real!" - but, like Don Quijote de La Mancha, we must strive on, reaching, as it were, for that unreachable star.
May you and yours have a happy and blessed Thanksgiving.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Making these dreams a reality is not easy; as Americans we've been working toward that goal for nearly 400 years and we've still got a long way to go.
The way I see it is that we've come way closer than anyone else.
Happy Thanksgiving
Can you see www.rapidtransit.com?
For reasons too tedious to explain, rapidtransit.com has changed IP addresses but not hosts. Like the cockeyed optimist I am, I changed name servers at the same tinme the IP changed and now rapidtransit.com is not resolving on the web though network utilities (domain dossier and nslookup) show it.
I'm just trying to see if any (and how many) of our far-flung family of SubTalkers can see the site by clicking the link above. If it doesn't resolve in a few more hours, I might switch the name servers back.
Just to let you know the site is still there, you should be able to see it by its new IP address.
Sorry about the O/T, Dave. And the bandwidth. ;-)
Thanks, guys, Paul
The link works for me.
Same here. Looks fine.
Likewise
DNS changes take some time to propagate, 10 min ago it didn't work for me, now it does.
Arti
DNS changes take some time to propagate, 10 min ago it didn't work for me, now it does.
The site is still loaded at its old IP address and its new IP address, so it should not have disappeared at all. But I think changing the name servers at the same time screwed it all up.
Works fine here.
I see, I see. Looks fine in Massachusetts!
--Mark
It occurred to me that you probably can't tell if you're looking at the old or new page when you go to www.rapidtransit.com, so I made a change in the "old" page. If you click on the above link at the background (to the right of the content) is bright green, it's the OLD IP address. If the background is neutral gray, it;s the NEW IP address.
For comparison:
Old home page
New home page
Gray here.
I can get to both! (Using the links provided in the last message)
John
It is gray to me.
--Mark
I got neutral gray.
gray here
I get both here: green on the old; grey on the new. That's with MSN TV (WebTV).
But which one do you see with http://www.rapidtransit.com?
Grey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe it's because owner Mort Zuckerman is in real estate as well, but Larry Silverstein gave the Daily News a more detailed plan for his new WTC site, which includes an arts center, residetial housing as well as office space and the idea previously mentioned on this board of lower West Street to create a direct street level connection between the WTC and the World Financial Center.
Still no mention about the subway connections and PATH, but another underground mall is also in Silverstein's plans.
$ilver$tein should get NOT ONE CENT of WELFARE for this PUNY plan. The PA should return his rent checks. Also, the attack on the WTC was a single event, engineered by Osama bin Laden's Al Qaida orginization. (one attack, one "occurence" one payout (3.5 Billion)
gelt uber alles has to take a break here. BTW, Did you notice how quickly Giuliani pulled the plug on the FDNY recovery after all that gold was pulled from the COMEX vaults. Now Bloomberg lines up right behind his fatcat buddy. maybe it is time for President Bush to take those people aside and tell them how things work, Heck he is rolling up Al Qaida in a right smart fashion. AMERICA needs it's twin towers. $ilver$tein will do alright whichever way the ball bounces, so why don't he just go away.
Come on.I would love to see something on that plot that would benefit the comunity instead of the "fat cats"!Besides,it's better than 4 50 stories towers that would only benefit RICH PEOPLE.And I have to say you are really,completely and embarasingly full of it.I bet before 9/11 you didn't care less about those towers.The only reason you are posting about this is because you are a poser.You talk like a libertarian but your just another selfish New Yorker who only wants what you want.I admit I miss those towers,but I would rather see housing and art centers be there instead of 1 and 2 WTC!
You TOTALLY MISUNDERSTAND me and my post.
It says 7WTC would start reconstruction within the year. It's time to start asking what's to be done with the IRT tunnel that runs up against it.
It says 7WTC would start reconstruction within the year. It's time to start asking what's to be done with the IRT tunnel that runs up against it.
I believe that the part of the tunnel that has been filled with concrete to support the street is near the 7 WTC site. Hopefully, the concrete can be removed soon and the tunnel put back into service.
I think the tunnel wall was created to prevent flooding from the WTC site to get into the subway. I will be removed as the area become more stable, and flooding will no longer be a concern.
I think the tunnel wall was created to prevent flooding from the WTC site to get into the subway. I will be removed as the area become more stable, and flooding will no longer be a concern.
Uhhhhh ... the anti-flooding barriers are in the PATH tubes, I believe. Is that the reason for the concrete plugs in the IRT tunnel as well?
(I feel really ignorant for asking this, but ... is the IRT inside the "bathtub" or just to the east of it? 'Cause if it's outside, then it pretty much CAN'T flood. The worry about the bathtub has always been that the western wall will collapse, essentially letting the Hudson into the basement levels of the former WTC and hence into the PATH tubes which come in toward the bottom. Not sure the same applies to IRT which is just below street level ....)
The IRT plug was installed to support the street above and all the heavy equipment running on it. The tunnel, after all, is essentially destroyed from 7WTC to Liberty St.
I know that the MTA has a green book detailing ridership by station from 1940 to 1995. Does anyone know if there's an online variant of this?
not that I know of
Today was a great day, I took about 64 photos, and all the trains I took had a railfan window with no one looking except 1. So my day started off at my station of Bedford Park and took a Redbird 4 down to 59 Street and got on a Redbird 6 to 51 Street and caught an R-32 E train to Jamaica Center (NICE STATION!) then I took an R-40 J train to Broadway Junction and caught an L to Rockaway and once I got to Rockaway Parkway I took it back to Broadway Junction and grabbed an R-32 A train, then at took it to Times Square and grabbed an R-40 Q Express to Dekalb Avenue and grabbed an R-32 N train. Once I got to 36 Street I got on another R-32 N train to 34 Street where I grabbed a R-68 D train to go back home. In all 1 lucky day when it comes to railfan windows. I got a lot of front cab views, I'm gonna submit 2-5 of them when they are devloped. I hope that David would add them to the line by line sections too.
The Q express was running today? I thought Sunday schedules were in effect. Did you notice if the W was running into Manhattan?
Some would object to your speaking of a railfan window on an R-62(A) with a transverse cab.
Sounds like you had a good time! I look forward to seeing your photos.
Ehhh... I see no mention of Chris riding an r62/a...
tho I think he meant "all but one" in place of
"all but(the) 1"...
My mistake! I think my brain merged his reference to 64 photos with his reference to an R-32. I think I need more sleep.
The Q exp was DEFINITELY not running today. I was on the Brighton line from dawn to dusk and didn't see one.
I meant Q express on broadway, I never went in Queens, and I never paid attention to see if it was a Diamond Q or Circle Q. Do they run an Slant on the Circle Q or was it a fluke?
Under normal circumstances, R-40s will not be operated on the Q-circle (Brighton Local). However, in the event of a blockage on the express track in a given direction (whether due to General Order or otherwise), a Q-diamond (Brighton Express) will operate on the local track in that direction.
David
But that, of course, doesn't apply here, since it's Thanksgiving and the diamond-Q isn't running today.
An R-40 on the circle-Q is a definite fluke.
Quite correct -- I forgot what the whole thread was about! Either it's a fluke, or he got a W train of R-40s (happens sometimes, especially on weekends -- and Thanksgiving is a "weekend") that happened to stop at DeKalb Avenue (which happens from time to time) and thought it was a Q.
David
You're thinking of the former B. The W doesn't run to Manhattan at all on weekends. It neither bypasses nor stops at DeKalb. If R-40's ever do show up on the W, it must be when I'm looking the other way. On weekends since July 22, I haven't seen the R-40 on anything but the N (and the Eastern Division lines).
OTOH, I did catch what was probably the very last R-40 B on the evening of July 21, followed by the very first yellow Q (R-68, of course) in many years.
Quite correct...must be the tryptophan in the turkey kicking in.
I'll shut up now...
David
Yeah, it's one of those days. (And I didn't even have turkey.)
It's possible that what Chris caught was not a Q but an N, rerouted over the bridge for whatever reason. Then again, he probably would have noticed. And he did say it ran express on Broadway.
Given how RARE it is to catch a redbird 4
and a redbird 6 (these days)..... you had
an EXTRAvaganza indeed~!!
The Redbirds on the 4 are a little frequent, there are extremely infrequent on the 6, from what I heard like 1 or 2 sets of Redbirds are on the 6. If that is true that redbirds on the 4 is rare, thats a shocker. Now a redbird on the 1, that would shock me from here to kingdom come.
Do anybody collect Metrocards in here?
Yes. Have quite a few. My pride and joy is the one that has the original Rockafeller tree on it.
Me and my mother do. I have the original fun pass, the first original Gold On Blue Metrocard. A few subway series ones, a snapple one, the transportation ones as well. I hope that they come out with more Special Edition Metrocards.
I don't really collect them but my favorite one that I have is the Altoid Metrocard that says "Mints for people who ride in a metal box," I always like that one.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I have heard on NY1 (local 24/7 news channel) that every year during the spring there there is a metrocard swapmeet in NYC. The original blue metrocards I belive go for $1000.
And to think that most of us just threw ours away! I think I kept one. Now I hold onto everything but the plain ones.
"I have heard on NY1 (local 24/7 news channel) that every year during the spring there there is a metrocard swapmeet in NYC. The original blue metrocards I belive go for $1000"
There is a Metrocard show held 3 times a year at a club at Lexington Ave. in the 30s. I am not sure when the next show will be held, but it will be announced on SubTalk.
The only Metrocard that may be about $1000 would be the elusive New York Times card in which only 1000 were minted. The Metrocards from the early days of the Metrocard program are indeed pricey, but not as high as $1000.
Bill "Newkirk"
Have a Jackie Robinson Metrocard. GO DODGERS!!!
Off topic, but I just found a M79 paper bus transfer from January 30, 1992.
Let me guess: in a book? Bus transfers made great bookmarks.
How about this one, from 1985:
(Hey, look at that! The old M8 was still in service!)
I justt realized that January 30, 1992 was exactly one year before the Red Line (Official Number: 802) opened in L.A.
I also have a couple with advertising for urbanfetch.com (check the domain). A sad by product of the investor dot-com revoulution. Thats what will happen to R-203's good but breaking every law of phiscics, thermodynamics, logic, regulations proposel. I bet that was his homework. Anyway how a Div A train enter aa div b station without massive gaps between the platform and train (1.5ft).
I have the original School issued bus and train passes prior to student metro cards, the ones with the holograpphic stickers
HELLO:
Im looking for your support in a mass transit building project, which will embrace your community.
I'm looking for the support from local community business leaders, as oppose to seeking governmental funding from State, City, or Federal levels; the service Im offering is chance for financial diversification and a type of oppertinuity for a business venture which most professional people who own their own small businesses would not very versed in,which is the transportation industry through the regional transportation market.
In light of news of recent events such as government interest rate reductions and congressional stimulus packages, the time is ripe to take advantage of these economic situations present at this time. Much like any blue-chip stock options or commodities, there risks in a project like this; but like donating a fire engine to local municipality provides excellent tax relief with the added benefit of endless dividend gains.
So . . . come on; get on board, and lets build this car together !WHAT IS A 'STATE-OF-THE-ART CAR'
A 'State-of-the-Art Car' (SOAC) is any vehical that is composed of the best features in modern technology that comprises over 75% of the vehicals desgin. That is to say, that outside of of an 'Advanced Concept Car' (ACC) which usually is a technological test bed for the advancement of future concepts in technolgy which developes away from a State-of-the-Art Car to an 'Advanced Concept Train' (ACT). State-of-the-Art Cars are usually easlly accepted by many local Department's of Transportation, and are encourage by the Federal Department of Tranportation; while Advance Concept Train's require individual component testing which can be costly.
WHAT IS THE R-203
The R-203 Advance Concept Train (ACT), is an 'Energy Conservation' State-of-the-Art-Car (SOAC), designed primarily for the New York City Subway system, though it can operate in other American city rapid transit systems.
The R-203's mission is to cut electrical consumption on the subway lines in the system by -105% percent; in other words the R-203 is not entirely self proplusive, like, to say a Desiel engine, which requires fuel and pollutes the enviornment; the R-203 uses 400 feet of the electrical 3rd rail for every 1600 feet traveled at 40 MPH. By redsigning the entire proplusion, and braking system the R-203 can pass along the savings of its everyday overall operating cost to different aeras; such as it's investor who will either least the coaches to a state or local municipalities; and pass the savings back to its passengers who benifit in a fare reduction because of reduced operating expense; and needless to say because the R-203 produces an electrical surplus, the surplus is sold back to the local utility company for a profit to the car investors. Other aeras of benifit of the use of the R-203 is its size (53.5 feet) which allows the coach to be interdivisional; that means the R-203 Advance Concept Train can change divisons along the the New York City Subway system in route from the 'A' division ( IRT) which already uses a 53 foot coach, to ' B ' division ( IND & BMT ) which uses a 65 to 75 foot coach. The technical advantages of intra-divisional enroute transfer is that the passengers need not change trains along along any given route by walking through transverse tunnels, or stairs; but simply ride a 'one-train - one-route' transit system.
But; the best feature of all of many inovation the R-203 will bring to mass transit ridership is that its inter-divisional enroute tranfer capibilities can allow it to extend into the routes of suburban commuter railroads ( MetroNorth, Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit, ect.) and their vairous subdivisions. The concept of interdivisional transfer from subway to commuter railroad goes back to the day of the Astor's Golden Coach; as for the general public you will be able to enter the New York City Subway at any station such as; the IRT - WALL ST. - #3 station, and directly travel to the LIRR - BAULDWIN station on the south shore line of the LIRR. The miricial in technolgy by which inter-divisional transfer is done is by a on board interial navigation route mapping computers which in conjunction with the trains ATC (automatic train controller) signaling system, and manual switching tower controlers, gives the R-203 route flexibility which can not be achieved by using conventional rolling stock.
page 01
THE GOAL OF THE R - 203 PROJECT
The goal of the R-203 project is multi-facisited:
1). to spur the growth of the local and regional economies
2). to provide jobs locally, and to start an ecnomic base for future jobs
3). to provide an oppertunity for investment and financial diversification
for private entrepanurs, and local businesses
4). to lower the enormous electricial dependancy demands of the subway
5). to make rideing the train more attactive than, driving an automobile (DWI) from a night clubs, casinos, or resturants after consuming alcholic beverages
6). to make the subway and commuter rail system more conveient for the visually, and phyicly challenged
7). to the begin the process of transit-commuter railroad unification to decrese passenger conjustion, on the platforms and stations, ect.
And, . . . not the mention, to be step in :
Creating 3 transverse Railroad Tunnels to the Brough of Richmond (Staten Island)
Creating a COOP City (Bronx) Elavated connection (replacing the 3rd Avenue El - demolished in 1967)
With just one look at the current mass transportation network in New York City it is easy to see that the state, and city government need the shot in the arm that the private sector initiatve can only provide.
THE FINANCIAL GOAL OF THE R-203
The aim of the R-203 is multifaceted in terms of its approach to increase in inclined of technology in the New York City subway system to state-of-the-art in standards, and in so doing The R-203 is the first component of the foundations of subway renovation in New York;
frist, through introduction of the state-of-the-art (SOAC) 'energy conservation cars' through the rapid transit system, that will reduce the electrical dependence on the third rail initialy by 70 percent veruses conventional subway coaches, in this way a financial surplus can be generated through the operation of energy conservation state-of-the-art cars;
second, the 'energy conservation stations' state-of-the-art stations (SOAS), a dividend of the mobile energy conservation technology. When a coventional subway or communter station is converted to an 'energy conservation station' the station can be seperated from the electrical utility grid, right up to thrid rail on both the EXPRESS, and LOCAL tracks; what that means is that when a stations operating cost is reduced by its removel from the untility grid the financial surplus can be diverted to inovations in that station archieture, such as:
Moving sidewalks
Escalators
Jumbo-Tron View Screens
Station Web Cams
Computerized System Maps
page 02
Turbo-Lifts
Carpets
Year Round Enviornmental Control Air Comfort Systems
Station/Tunnel Automated Vault Doors
More Individual Station Managers (with a complete Offices & Maintianance Staff)
In a SOAS station, at least 70 new products can be incorporated that would , that was never incorprated in any railroad station ever. Needless to say there would be substancial movment in 'Technologies' and 'Durable Goods' issues, impacting over 150 supporting companies; not to mention after the public announcment of the project, which would lead to an upward ajustment in the domestic'Gross National Product' for several financial quarters.
WHAT DO YOU GET OUT
OF THE R-203 PROJECT
No matter what your level of involvement:
Full-Partner
Silent-Partner
Major-Investor
Minor-Investor
The R-203 offers you the investors literaly an opportunity to invest your money in a Railroad market that profront 6.3 Million passengers daily, in a tri-state aera of 28 million people.
The R-203 project is an opportunity for you, as a private inevestor, small business owner, public official, or community leader to get involved in a public works project of significant meaning for your local communities. The financial benefits are equal to being a partner, in a railroad company and/or a manufacturing firm. In other words, because of the nature of your investment and its amount you can receive anything from a quarterly dividend check, to a bi-annually or monthly salary.
Full-Partner : An individual or group of indivduals who assume financial and legal responsibility over the development of the R-203 Project, and its subtrahend technologies, patents, copyrights, and commerical application of the operation of the vehical and financial profit derived through the operation of any of its supporting technolgies; from the company/corprate structure of the R-203 commercial outlet : the '9TH AVENUE RAILROAD COMPANY' , which is the public-service outlet at the conclusion of the development of the R-203 project. Any said person assuming responsibilities at this level of company/corporate involvement can be cosidered a designated officer ( Exce.Vice President, Vice President, Exce. Treasury Secratary, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, ect.) of the company (the '9TH AVENUE RAILROAD COMPANY') in proportion to primary levels of financial investment; in terms of project (R-203) development, but not withstanding as s adminastrative controller as an company/corprate structure, as an officer.
Silent-Partner: An individual or group of indivduals who assume partial or no leagal responsibilities in development of the R-203 coach(es) or in the subtrahend technologies, patents, copyrights, and commerical application of the operation of the vehical accept in financial profits derived through the operation of any of its supporting technolgies;
page 03
WHAT DO YOU GET OUT
OF THE R-203 PROJECT
from the company/corprate structure of the R-203 commercial outlet :the '9TH AVENUE RAILROAD COMPANY' , which is the public-service outlet at the conclusion of the development of the R-203 project.; while assuming a predesignated protion of financial profits derived through the operation of any of its supporting technolgies; from the company/corprate structure of the R-203 commercial outlet :the '9TH AVENUE RAILROAD COMPANY' , which is the public-service outlet at the conclusion of the development of the R-203 project.; while assuming NO predesignated company/corprate title ( Exce.Vice President, Vice President, Exce. Treasury Secratary, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, ect.) the company/corporation (the '9TH AVENUE RAILROAD COMPANY').
Major-Investor: An individual or group of indivduals who invest financialy in the '9TH AVENUE RAILROAD COMPANY' (the R-203 project) without a company/corporate title; but acts in an advisory panel under supervison, without operational lieability of the day to day operation of the '9TH AVENUE RAILROAD COMPANY'; but is supervised as an advisory body of the 'Board of Trustees'; who the Chairman their of is a company officer; for the purposes of financial profit in proportion to the indivdual investors magnetude of financial outlay.
Minor-Investor: An individual or group of indivduals who invest financialy in the '9TH AVENUE RAILROAD COMPANY' (the R-203 project) without a company/corporate title; within the structure of the 'Board of Trustees' for the purposes of financial profit in proportion to the indivdual investors magnetude of financial outlay.
As an investor/partner you are investing in the production of a product that is considered a 'Durable Goods' in the finanical world, and will reflex it presents the indexes which governs the domestic GNP in the financial markets.
WHAT DOES MY COMMUNITY
GET OUT OF THE R-203 PROJECT
The R-203 Project affords your community a state-of-the-art mass transportation system with all the comfort of a private railroad coach;
but with the convients of your car, taxi, or limousine.
With the added technological benifit of the TURBO-LIFT; which by its very nature would be impossible to incorporate in any railroad coach, or station due to design complexity, and the amount of electrical power, and automation needed to operate this transportation sub component. As most of the demographic aeras population become increasingly older the scenciblity of this design feature will makes itself appernt.
HOW DO I GET INVOLVED
WITH THE R-203 PROJECT
You must frist detirmine at what level involvment in which you can participate; then contact us, . . . and, your presonal financial advisor ;
page 04
if you already have a large and complicated portfolio. Contact us, (in writting) with any questions you might have, before committing youself financialy.
All terms, agreements, and commitments are drawn up in individual contracts per investor; all principal and dividend payments are schdueled in your contract. As for risk to your principal investment; our company continualy reinvest the principal, and work from the dividend until production goals are achieved and the final service production realization has been established; which should be 3 to 5 years.
Though should you wish to withdraw your invlovment your principal will be returned within approximatey 3 financial quarters; and finally your dividends payments would begin.
page 05
Someone has way too much time at hand.
Arti
Well, I must admit that i have not read through your lengthy presentation, but I will. However, fair warning, this is a site made up mostly of subway fans and railtransit hobbyists. You may be in the wrong part of town.
Pay attention that the plan calls for trains generating power instead consuming it.
Arti
Oh DO read it - sounds like so many of the official things that fly around trade shows. I especially like the "perpetual motion" aspects where it makes more power than it uses. No offense to anyone, but that's a definite red over red to anyone who knows what happens when electrons ride for free. :)
I think that the person who posted the message had WAY too much time on his hands. It was interesting however.
#3 West End Jeff
Oh, and another point of interest is the third rail gaps ... should make for amusing times in slow running but I would guess that a retrofit with bugs every couple hundred feet oughta let the train recharge in an hour or two. :)
Perhaps part of the project could be financed by selling the removed 3rd rail for scrap.
Arti
The Mongolians couldn't afford the third rail construction in Ulan-Bator so they have third hand battery powered cars. Con Ed has outlets for extension cords everywhere. Peter
Maybe that guy should try Mongolian investors.
Arti
A Freudian slip: "-105 percent" ??? The Mongo cars were Russian and Ukrainian 'surplus' but the stations on the 8 Km line are so beautiful. One Scandinavian country built busses that used a 2222 pound flywheel, charging it up at every station. At least R-203 has some imagination...he doesn't know how hard it is to come by a tail light for an R142. Peter
105 % was no slip, the trains are supposed to generate power.
Arti
I like the concept of 'energy conservation' better. Peter
Heh. I really feel guilty poking the holes I did and I'll sit on the sidelines now. The guy went to a lot of trouble in creating paper of good government quality and clearly knows how to write proposals. It's easy for us to poke holes in it but it clearly does show a lot of thought and work went into it. Obviously there's some bad information out there which found its way into the paper, but aside from the technical issues raised by the matter/antimatter reaction in the Windows2014 operating system, it's the kind of thing I would have gladly taken into a stall for a few hours when I worked at the Public Service Commission - beats Verizon filings HANDS DOWN. :)
Kind of reminds me of the investment proposals from Nigeria :-)
Arti
Heh. I've got the GoGo's concert in Central Park cranked to the max (DirecTV channel 103) and right now they're singing "our lips are sealed" ... I'll leave it there. :)
Don't feel guilty. The guy can't even spell, and he or she wants to convince us that trackage exists to seamlessly travel between both divisions and commuter rail.
The miricial in technolgy by which inter-divisional transfer is done is by a on board interial navigation route mapping computers which in conjunction with the trains ATC (automatic train controller) signaling system, and manual switching tower controlers, gives the R-203 route flexibility which can not be achieved by using conventional rolling stock.
What he is trying to say is that now, the T/O can read a map via maquest, and he can navagate the subways like a street. Welcome to the "millneium"
Yeah, I get your point there and noticed that as well. I just like to save my hatpins for the pompous. :)
Lots of hampsters. Lots of circular cages. Lots of rubber belts tied into DC motors....
Glad to hear Con Ed has signed on. :)
Didn't realize Con Ed had gone so high-tech already.
Anyway, I figure so long as you have a four-hampster on/off crew consisting of one male and one female to do the energy-generation work while on the job and work at producing more workers while off duty, you can maintain your energy supplies and staffing requirements, and the sale of those cute little pellets for fertilizer should bring the plan up to about the 105 percent engery production level when factored into the equasion...
Well you gotta feed the critters. You could have the rats run until they die then replace them with new rats. Also you could feed dead rats to the hampsters. and sell the fur to make vests.
Well, if you can gather up enough leftovwer food droppings from the passengers, you could pretty much lower the food bill to zero by just feeding it to the power supply, though the cannabalistic hampsters/rats idea does solve the disposal problem once the workers have gone on to that great treadmill in the sky...
How about the newspapers? Do newspapers have any nutritional value to hamsters? If not, burn them as fuel. (The newspapers, not the hamsters.) At the very least, that would cut down on winter heating bills. It might also soften the color of the R-142 walls. And passengers would have weapons to use against the door-holders!
Heh. Only problem is that the hamsters would have to join IBEW. The male would br promoted to foreman and the female would be too busy making coffee for the foreman. End result, ConeHead as usual. But they'd be able to file for a rate hike owing to the lost productivity.
right on
This is On Topic R-203 is talking about. BUT it's good to know that they want to invent a subway car that would cut energy costs.
You missed the point, they want to invent a car that will produce energy.
Arti
Remember 'cold fusion?'
Corrections:
A Division equipment are 51 feet in length
B division equipment are as follows:
R32,38,40,40M,42 are 60 feet
R44,46,68,68A are 75 feet
R110A is 51 feet
R110B is 67 feet
The OP also appears to be unaware that trains aren't all of the same width. But let's deal first with the perpetual motion issue.
It's that high school kid and you are doing his portfolio project for him.
the R-110A is IRT. Divison A
R-203,
Did you ever think of approaching the MTA with this proposal ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Is it just me,or does this sound like a carnival barker tring to get you to see the freak show at the circus?
What happened to proposals R-001 through R-202?
What kind of drugs does one take before R-203 makes a shred of sense?
So when did the law of conservation of energy get stricken from the books?
-Robert King
Do you have spellcheck?
Well this mesage board doesn't have a spell check.
Can anybody verify the whereabouts of HeyPaul at this time. I'm locking in on that IP in 10, 9, 8 .......
Heypaul seems to feel that subtalk is the wild-west of the internet. he says we're not warm and fuzzy enough for him. About now he's fluffing the hamster-fur lining of his R-9 cab.
Hey R-203 I'am sorry that you can't actual build what you are talkng about for the next 500 years. But if you want the closest thing to perpetual energy look up "space energy recivers" and "Thomas Henry Moray" or "Thomas Moray" maybe you will wind up like Moray (note he was shot once, fired upon over 15 times in his life)
More exactly, this sounds like an MBA in the making. At least reads like it...
Im looking for your support in a mass transit building project, which will embrace your community.
Note the use of buzzwords embrace and comminuity
I'm looking for the support from local community business leaders, as oppose to seeking governmental funding from State, City, or Federal levels; the service Im offering is chance for financial diversification and a type of oppertinuity for a business venture which most professional people who own their own small businesses would not very versed in,which is the transportation industry through the regional transportation market.
More buzzwords here: diversification, venture, 'regional transportation'
So far, 0% of this is any real useful content.
In light of news of recent events such as government interest rate reductions and congressional stimulus packages, the time is ripe to take advantage of these economic situations present at this time. Much like any blue-chip stock options or commodities, there risks in a project like this; but like donating a fire engine to local municipality provides excellent tax relief with the added benefit of endless dividend gains.
So . . . come on; get on board, and lets build this car together !
More MBA bullshit.
A 'State-of-the-Art Car' (SOAC) is any vehical that is composed of the best features in modern technology that comprises over 75% of the vehicals desgin. That is to say, that outside of of an 'Advanced Concept Car' (ACC) which usually is a technological test bed for the advancement of future concepts in technolgy which developes away from a State-of-the-Art Car to an 'Advanced Concept Train' (ACT). State-of-the-Art Cars are usually easlly accepted by many local Department's of Transportation, and are encourage by the Federal Department of Tranportation; while Advance Concept Train's require individual component testing which can be costly.
In effect, it's a testbed for new ideas.
The R-203 Advance Concept Train (ACT), is an 'Energy Conservation' State-of-the-Art-Car (SOAC), designed primarily for the New York City Subway system, though it can operate in other American city rapid transit systems.
Note the happy-feely language to attract environmental types.
The R-203's mission is to cut electrical consumption on the subway lines in the system by -105% percent; in other words the R-203 is not entirely self proplusive, like, to say a Desiel engine, which requires fuel and pollutes the enviornment;
Note the near impossible to achive goals, and bending of the truth to make the proposal seem more attractive.
the R-203 uses 400 feet of the electrical 3rd rail for every 1600 feet traveled at 40 MPH. By redsigning the entire proplusion, and braking system the R-203 can pass along the savings of its everyday overall operating cost to different aeras; such as it's investor who will either least the coaches to a state or local municipalities; and pass the savings back to its passengers who benifit in a fare reduction because of reduced operating expense; and needless to say because the R-203 produces an electrical surplus, the surplus is sold back to the local utility company for a profit to the car investors.
Now, in addition, it violates all laws of physics, thermodynamics, and logic. Impressive!!!
Other aeras of benifit of the use of the R-203 is its size (53.5 feet) which allows the coach to be interdivisional; that means the R-203 Advance Concept Train can change divisons along the the New York City Subway system in route from the 'A' division ( IRT) which already uses a 53 foot coach, to ' B ' division ( IND & BMT ) which uses a 65 to 75 foot coach. The technical advantages of intra-divisional enroute transfer is that the passengers need not change trains along along any given route by walking through transverse tunnels, or stairs; but simply ride a 'one-train - one-route' transit system.
Note the continued use of buzzwords, misinformation, and unrealistic goalsa for the project.
But; the best feature of all of many inovation the R-203 will bring to mass transit ridership is that its inter-divisional enroute tranfer capibilities can allow it to extend into the routes of suburban commuter railroads ( MetroNorth, Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit, ect.) and their vairous subdivisions.
I'll snip some BS here. Note the overoptimistic goals for the project, and the complete ignoreance of regulatory hurdles, physical constraints, etc.
For buzzwords, it gets an A+, for engineering, an F, and for a student at an MBA factory, I'd say a C - it's too organized and realistic for an A.
I'm guessing MTA upper management is busy "testing the waters" here? ;)
Anyway, for origionality, I give it a D.
I won't mention spelling here!!!!!
(BTW, be sure to close your marquee tag, or nobody can follow up!)
Hehe, I don't think you used the spellcheck either :-)
Arti
There is no spell check.
Duh?!
Arti
Was da uss fa spilchok?
dafagoptykh?
Arti
Now now ... government pays Salary Grade 23 and up for that kinda stuff ... one of the reasons why I cut the guy some slack is that when I worked for the public service commission, we'd see stuff like that EVERY day filed by utility adminiswigs and DAMN if it didn't become policy after the study groups put a few teethmarks in stuff like that. :)
If that every gets to MTA headquarters, the helium bladders will be inflated to bursting and you'll see the headlight on the roof as it shoots by on a test track. Hopefully LIRR will get dibs on this first. :)
All daily ridership as well as railfans can only hope that R-203, gets out from behind his desk and does some field work and investigation. That way he could answer a few of his own questions and cancel some of his ridiculous suggestions.
Ummm, yeah.
That's a really interesting plan, but it needs some work. Let
us know when you graduate 6th grade and we'll take another look.
P.S. Contract R-203 has already been let to a consortium of
Knickerbocker Heavy Industries and American Standard Car Company
for a combination bar/toilet car.
Hey Jeff - They don't have to spend that much money to design a bar/toilet car. We already have it at Shoreline. Its not called the R-203 but THE MINEOLA.
If the roll-top desk can be sanded,stained and polished, we have the bar and Augie's throne........... LOL
Hart Bus :O)
Wowsers! I wanna RIDE that one ... unless it's closed loop recycling of course since after all, beer is rented.
Your seemed to have missed a big issue here.
The R-203 is a good starting point, as it saves much wear and tear by only using "400 feet of thrird rail for every 1600 feet of travel," as you say.
But why stop there?
I propose the NEXT next-generation train, the R-204, should only use 200 feet of running rail for every 4,000 feet of travel! Imagine the savings if 95% of the track were to be pulled up off the roadbed! You could pretty much leave only the interlockings, and they would be greatly simplified, since you can't approach lock tracks that aren't there!
Bye for now, I have to go sell a Monorail to Springfield.
(What's it called? MONORAIL!)
Your truly,
Lyle Lanley, huckster
P.S. I recommend investing in "mind the gap" stickers for your A/B division train.
are you refering to the rails on which the train sits or the 3rd rail which supplies power oh yahh. It is called Amp-hours or Watt-hours not feet of third rail.
Kilowatt-hours
amps, feet, watts; all parts of the body, anyway.
Maybe the R-20,005 XL plus can cut those down to Kilowatt-MINUTES?
we can only hope for a better tomorrow.
Or we could just light up a bone and go "kxskxskxskxskxsksxsxsx ..." conincidence? :)
Stick with my R300. It'll run with just a jar of fireflys. Peter
I will peruse this article page by page and post my thoughts here page by page. I encourage you to support your statements for clarity.
The R-203's mission is to cut electrical consumption on the subway lines in the system by -105% percent; in other words the R-203 is not entirely self proplusive, like, to say a Desiel engine, which requires fuel and pollutes the enviornment; the R-203 uses 400 feet of the electrical 3rd rail for every 1600 feet traveled at 40 MPH.
Now, I don't know if this is real or not, but how is it possible to cut down an electrical consumption level by -105%? Are you saying now that NYCT does not need ANY TYPE of electrical consumption at all -5%? Will people sit in the dark in the subway tubes and will the lights inside the stations be turned off for such energy cutoff? Did you consider the weight of the R-203, and how much electricity it takes to move that weight?
Are you saying that a diesel/self-propelled train must run through the Subway system? If that persists, the pollutant levels of the air will be too high and be harmful for human consumption.
For the third part, are you saying that friction will not act upon the train? How slow will it go after it stops consuming electricity after 400ft. of 3rd rail?
Other aeras of benifit of the use of the R-203 is its size (53.5 feet) which allows the coach to be interdivisional; that means the R-203 Advance Concept Train can change divisons along the the New York City Subway system in route from the 'A' division ( IRT) which already uses a 53 foot coach, to ' B ' division ( IND & BMT ) which uses a 65 to 75 foot coach.
Why would a 53 ft. train ever run through the IND/BMT lines of the Subway? The IRT and the IND/BMT railways have had separate co.'s to build their railcars, which differ in size and slight design. Their trains were designed to run through the lines that each of the three (IRT, IND, BMT) have had control over their time long ago. This resulted in differences of designing the Subway, such as short curves on the Flushing line outside of the Steinway tubes which was not designed for 75'ers.
Also, there are no 65' coaches, only 60' and 75', and on another post I read there are 51' trains on the IRT. I'm not sure of your experience and knowledge of the Subway, but I suggest you do some studying to know more about them.
I don't think the yards would have a mix of IRT and IND/BMT size trains.
The technical advantages of intra-divisional enroute transfer is that the passengers need not change trains along along any given route by walking through transverse tunnels, or stairs; but simply ride a 'one-train - one-route' transit system.
How is this possible? Have you ever studied the lines of the NYCT? Do you know that some stations have different levels that are separated by a mezzanine? (there are many of them). Do you know how many lines run parallel to each other in mid-lower Manhattan?
Do you know how many elevated lines there are in Brooklyn?
Using these thoughts, I don't know if it's possible to justify your saying.
But; the best feature of all of many inovation the R-203 will bring to mass transit ridership is that its inter-divisional enroute tranfer capibilities can allow it to extend into the routes of suburban commuter railroads ( MetroNorth, Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit, ect.) and their vairous subdivisions. The concept of interdivisional transfer from subway to commuter railroad goes back to the day of the Astor's Golden Coach; as for the general public you will be able to enter the New York City Subway at any station such as; the IRT - WALL ST. - #3 station, and directly travel to the LIRR - BAULDWIN station on the south shore line of the LIRR. The miricial in technolgy by which inter-divisional transfer is done is by a on board interial navigation route mapping computers which in conjunction with the trains ATC (automatic train controller) signaling system, and manual switching tower controlers, gives the R-203 route flexibility which can not be achieved by using conventional rolling stock.
The existing rail co.'s such as LIRR, NJ TRANSIT, and Metro-North in this era are limited to a budget of taking care of projects and new railcars intervening in each rail line.
Who will fund the production of the R-203's? Who will manufacture them? Will there be 600V 3rd rail and 750V 3rd rail, and catenary wired trains? (Notice that 3rd rail powered trains must be compatible with the line they're running through)
Do you know how the budget system of each rail line works? Did you know that each co. has to fund major dollars in finishing and constructing major projects? Are you saying that when the new R203's come out LIRR, NJT, and MNRR are willing to give up a large fraction of their budget to start the revolutionizing time period of savings and worry-free utilities and services? Who will repair damaged and cars which need repair and service?
Your ideas of advanced signalling, switching, and computer programming seems to fit in with later advanced technology which may or may not be in this generation. Well, if you're young enough, you could contribute this idea to scientists and technologists who works on the advancing of modern technology and possibly you will see this happen.
PLEASE SPELL CHECK! Please preview your posting before you post! I had minor problems understanding your article because of them.
I'm not sure of your experience and knowledge of the Subway, but I suggest you do some studying to know more about them.
I am. Your suggestion is quite appropriate. Unless the original poster is in training as a comedian.
Well the tone of the posting seemed as if it was figurative, and not actual.
By the way, did "R-203" mention this as the R203 being a class-type of the NYCT rolling stock?
It's a teenager doing his portfolio project.
It would be interesting if anyone get back a letter from R-203 that they are officially a investor in that company of his. I wonder what the guy who wrote that is going to post next. Probubly that message was written by a non-railfan and he had to post it somewere and get a reaction as a homework assignment. Now he had a railfan friend and that railfan knew of this site and that railfan posted it. I wonder what the R-203 (if it will execist) or a number near that will really look like in real life and not in a cold fusion head. I think it come around 2070 or 2050. I wonder what R-203 will write about the R-500 in 2050.
Pete, you're taking this way too seriously. The R203 isn't EVER gonna happen.
I know. But it was a test for me to try and take this plan and piece it piece by piece, and see what my strengths and weaknesses are in providing "counter thoughts".
I have always been interested in subways since I was real young and recently that interest helped me realize that one of the careers that i would find interesting would be a subway motorman. What would I have to do fulfill my aspiration? Thanks in advance.
If you are really interested in that kind of work (and it isn't easy) then keep your eyes on the MTA employment postings and pray for the hiring freeze to end. Read the postings here: there are several 'Train Operators' posting and it's a hard life dealing with the odd shifts/lines and the nasty public. I salute them all. Peter
Anyone know how the test went? R203 is using the tech but dis it work out? If so will it be retrofitted or strictly for new cars?
I just want to when the TA will begin to reconstruct the concrete viaduct in the Rockaways? I here that they have placed in someplaces new tracks on the viaduct. I saw a couple of weeks ago around Rock Park to maybe Beach 90. I am not sure, but I did seed work trains and have herd people say. Anyway if this is so, is the stucture beneith the tracks sound? Lets not make a mistake, remember the 7 line had problems. They put new tracks but had to rebuild the viaduct afterword. I think the Rockaway line is in need of repair, I see the steel sructure exposed in many places in Rockaway.
You are correct. I was out there a year ago and the Rockaway Park Branch was very deteriorated. Including the stations; Debris on the tracks and the station mezzanines were dreadful. A capitol rebuild is in order money permitting.
They have now installed new lighting on the Rock Park Stations.
There is a way, and its quite simple, I should've thought of this. Since South Ferry is shut down cause of the incident, we can take the 5 have it terminate at Bowling Green all the time that it operates downtown. The 2 and 3 can run down in to brooklyn, except that the 3 and 4 will run express in bklyn and the 1 and 2 will run local. The 1 and 2 go to Flatbush, and the 3 and 4 are normal. The option is to run a few Flatbush Avenue 5 trains during the rush hours.
With this
1. The 1 trains route is shortened to an extent, cutting trip time. 2. The 2 and 3 run express once again, making trips along that line faster instead of having people cram on to a 3 line to get downtown faster.
3. Service is restored to a point where there are less transfers.
So what do you think?
Feh.
if you were a 1 line t/o you would be happy, and the 3 lines doesn't become a pointless line
You'd be running 3 different lines on one track from Chambers to at least Nevins. Can you say "traffic jam"?
but when the Manhattan Bridge North Side was open the B,D,Q, went down 2 tracks for a long time too, so it can be done.
The B, D, and Q are not as frequent as the 1, 2, and 3. For every B train, you have only 1 D and 1 Q. For every D, you have only 1 B and 1 Q. For every Q, you have only 1 D and 1 B. For the 1, you have 1 2 and 1 3. For the expresses, you have 1 local for each express train. In short, there are more trains and you know how slow NYC Subway Trains are. This isn't DC at its 3 minute intervals running right on time. We are talking stop, go, stop, go, etc.
Yes, and the B, D, and Q ran less frequently than the 1, 2, and 3.
Your plan cuts total West Side service above 14th Street by a third and cuts local service in half. The longer waits that 2 and 3 passengers will have to endure will undo any savings they gain. Those of us who need local stops might as well stay home, since passengers will enter stations at a faster rate than trains will be able to carry them off. I can't wait to see 72nd Street.
Christopher, and everyone else who is searching high and low for a way to increase West Side express service (at the expense, naturally, of local service), you obviously don't ride the line on a regular basis. Do us a favor: stand on the northbound 72nd Street platform between 5 and 6 for a few days. You've convinced yourself that there's too much local service but you have no idea how much local service is needed.
Whaaaaaaaaat? Go OUTSIDE on the RAILROAD, and take a look around to determine whats needed? How strange, and innovative.
I thought the ENIAC in the basement, made from old NX relays, was doing all of the scheduling and routing, with no field work necessary!
For those of you with furrowed brows, I'M JOKING!!!
Dave
You've convinced yourself that there's too much
local service but you have no idea how much
local service is needed.
Whose to say we can't pluck out some spare 9 trains,
dress 'em up as 1's and put em back to work??
IIRC.. there HAVE TO BE some trains on standby at 240..
(maybe surplus now that the 9 line was DQ'd)
Once again the 9 was just a rush hour version of the 1.
We have no extra trains at 240 yard, we have extra trains from Lenox in use to help provide the same headways on a longer run.
Thank you! I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Do people think that West Side IRT local service suddenly doubled for rush hour? In fact, rush hour headways were barely shorter than midday headways.
Do people think that West Side IRT local service suddenly doubled for rush hour?
Seemed that way to me... tho this one's got
me puzzled.. and this thread gave me
mathematical food for thought..
stand on the northbound 72nd Street platform
between 5 and 6 for a few days.
For the record, I have done this task..
...and I find 5 and 6 to be quite a
scientifically amusing hour..
Just with the No.1 and No.2 Line running on the same track we see minor delays now with the No.3 running along with the No.1,2 Lines from Chambers to Nevins it will be gridlock. Also the No.5 Line needs to run into Brooklyn during the Rush Hour the No.4 can't handle the flow of Brooklyn riders from the East side alone. They could turn some rush Hours No.5 Trains at South Ferry but not all.
oo many TPH during rush hour through the Clark Street tube -- the same reason why they can't run 4/5 service to Brooklyn and the No. 6 line to South Ferry rush hours right now.
Not only that, but if you cut off access to the east side from Flatbush (and vice versa), there will be a great many people with issues. On top of that, the #4 will be overwhelmed with passengers wanting the #5 but not finding any. And remember that the Brooklyn IRT is a mess to beign with no thanks to the switches outside Nostrand.
I dont think it could happen first the timers are crazy between Chambers Street and Borough Hall, The big crossover-interlocking at Franklin, couldnt handle trains 1 and 3 going to Nostrand and the 2,5 going to Flatbush
Chris you have a good concept but there's a few setbacks.
1.There will be a tieup on the Eastern Parkway and 7 Avenue line.
2.Fewer trains will have to be running on these 2 IRT lines.
3.I don't think the 1 needs to go to Flatbush all times.
I did make an alternative
1:Normal.
2:Local from Flatbush to 148 Street
3.Express in Manhatthan,local in the Bronx to 241 street.
I spent last weekend in Boston visiting friends, and of course I set aside some time to visit the T. I wasnt able to ride the entire system, but I did make a point of going out of my way to ride all four lines. I just wanted to let all you Bostonians know that I found the T to be a truly wonderful system (not that you needed to be told that), and I enjoyed exploring it.
I spent most of my time riding the red line from to Davis Square and back. The new stations are some of the most magnificent subway stations Ive ever been in; they are spacious, architecturally aesthetic; and clean. The red line cars seem very wide on the inside, which surprises me, since I believe they are basically the same width as a B division car. I wish the windows werent tinted, so I could have a better view of what is going on in the tunnel, and some make quite a racket, but the cushioned seats are a definite plus. The lighting reminds me of the r142.
I also made a point of checking out the other three lines. The orange and blue seem very similar, and there is something oddly similar yet different about their downtown stations. The blue line in particular gave me an opportunity to glance down the tunnel and watch for approaching trains. The green line was wild and a bit daunting to navigate, especially the E versus not E trains.
I have some basic questions that I wasnt able to answer with online material. First (and not that anybody would necessarily want to), what is the compatibility between NYCT rolling stock and the red, orange, and blue lines? I imagine A division cars could fit on any of the three afore mentioned lines, and B division cars could fit on the red line, but perhaps only the sixty foot cars. What, if any, differences are there between platform height, power supply, and third rail position? What type of signaling system is used on the T? I wasnt able to get a good look out the windows, but it seems the signals are fewer and farther between than on NYCT. Finally, why does the T often operate without front headlights? Once an operator flashed them entering a station, but usually the trains operated with just red running lights.
MATT-2AV
Glad you enjoyed the system. Here's some specs that will help answer your questions.
All Rapid Transit cars are 600v spring loaded paddle style shoes. Blue Line also has pantographs. 3rd rail height is the same on all Boston's lines.
Red Line 1500-1600s are 69'4" long, 10'1 1/2" wide, 3'11 1/2" platform. 1700's 69'3 3/4" long, 10'0" wide, same platform. 1800's are 69'9 3/4 long, 10' wide, same platform.
Red Line signal system is ATO with in cab speed indication and signals at crossovers and interlockings. 1800's will make station stops, others require operators to make the proper stop.
Orange Line 1200-1300s are 65'4" long, 9'3" wide with a 3'6" pit.
Orange Line has ATO on the south side and signals with trips on the north with the transition taking place in the Haymarket/State area. Operators must make all station stops.
Blue Line 600's are 48'10", 9'3" wide and a 3'3" pit.
Blue Line is signals with trips and a whole bunch of timing lights.
Blue and Orange cars are from the same manufacturer built a year apart. They use the same parts. New Blue cars have been ordered and when they arrive, some old ones will be sent to the Orange Line to make 8 car trains (which will fit in the Orange 6 car platforms) to help extend that fleet for a few more years.
As far as headlights, Orange guys tend to use headlights. Blue guys usually don't as those tunnels are pretty well lit, and it's easier to see a worker signalling with his flashlight with the lights off.
Do the the yellow work trains (old R-10s and r20s) still have motors in them?
Are they trailers?
Are the motors ever used?
Also are when there are fantrips why are diesels used to move the ancient trains around?
Do the motors not work?
The D-types run fine, there's just no 3rd rail power on the SBK, which is why N1 & N2 were involved in the March of Dimes trip.
Now, who was it who claimed that there's no brown N on the R-40 rollsign?
sure as hail wasn't me. Hey David, go to bed so you can get up early to get that $10 scanner at Staples Friday morning. Use a $10 off of $40 coupon with it and it'll be free.
Maybe somebody hit a homeball and customized the front end. :)
It is a cross between yellow and brown, perhaps the yellow paint was not mixed too well in the can! It looks like a cross between yellow and brown, not as much as a deep rich brown as on the M end sign reading.
Notice that the letter is white, not black.
Exactly. It appears to be an older sign with "mustard yellow" surrounding a white N, as opposed to a newer sign with "lemon yellow" surrounding a black N.
David
A couple of cars have that kind of "N" sign; one is #4251, also #4321 has it. That is the ORIGINAL 1967 "N" color, with a white letter. The Yellow they used back then was more like a gold color; today's Broadway line color is a little more yellowish, so white doesn't show up well on it.
wayne
Interesting. It looked brown when I saw it; the colors aren't represented perfectly here. In any case, I took this picture on the first day of reinstated N service -- the first day in over a month that Sea Beach trains ran up Broadway rather than up the "brown line" in Manhattan. I figured someone was saying goodbye.
This is a very interesting picture. I also thought it might be the 1967 N, which used a white letter....BUT...why would that sign still be on a train today? The size and proportions look throughly modern...
I'm with Mr. Greenberger on this one...just as there were "W" signs years ago (I saw one on an R32 side roll sometime between 1995-97), and there are reportedly gray K signs, maybe a brown N is a potential route from the Sea Beach to the Eastern Division? (actually, such a route was run, but they changed they called it the M, as we all know)If so, it's probably right after the brown M, and when the order was given to re-start the N, the T/O or whoever cranked the sign, saw a letter N, and stopped. The yellow N, with a black letter, is probably next. On the other hand, maybe there's a diamond brown N as well...?
Well on a R-46 a saw a brown (like J,M,Z) diamond R (brown backround, white R) instead of a round yellow R.
The brown R was in service around 1985. It ran from 95th Street to Chambers Street (via tunnel, of course). Similar services have existed during other periods under other names -- most recently when the J was extended south into Bay Ridge.
But there was never actually a brown N.
Why not have the M go to 95th instead of the West End? Then put the N on the bridge and run it express. Have the circle Q replace R in Queens (one good thing about the lower N/R closure) and run via tunnel and Broadway local. Then there'd be enough room for the N to run via bridge, Broadway express along with the diamond Q and W.
The yellow R would be eliminated.
I just think the N should be getting better treatment, it could be done but for whatever political reason they choose to keep the N in the tunnel. It is so absurd, especially now that most of the lower Manhattan stops are hardly used now that the WTC is gone. One line is enough for City Hall, Rector, and Whitehall.
No more R train, eh?
I think you may have something there. But I think if you're going to have the circle-Q running to Queens and running through the Montague tunnel, you might want to rename it the R and have the circle Q be the only Q service. The R would become the new Brighton local, allowing it to spend some time outdoors. Having one Q train running from Queens through Manhattan and local through the Montague tunnel, while having the other one express in Manhattan and over the Manny B might cause some confusion, probably a lot. Since the two Q trains will now be on separate tracks for almost all of their runs, they will be two different lines. So they should have two different letters.
But your idea sounds great. I've seen ridership down over there. They really only need one line. They would also be able to free up cars.
Sure that way the circle Q would be renamed as the R, and the R40 signs (they do have a yellow circle Q?) can be backlighted again (I can't stand those diamond Q stickers, you can't see them). And the M will run to 95th on the R.
And bring the N line back to it's rightful place!! I'm suprised the TA hasn't though of this, I think Sea Beach Fred is right, the TA is just trying to put down the N Sea Beach line.
Put the N back on the bridge, run it express on broadway and put the R on Brighton and thru tunnel, the circle Q become Brighton express. This all makes sense. What the heck is wrong with the TA? They really do enjoy keeping the N line down (steaming).
Also they should fix up the stations on the Sea Beach. They are nice stations, if the TA would fix them up.
We gotta fight for the rights of the N SEA BEACH!
The Slants DO have a yellow Circle "Q" sign on their rolls.
wayne
I'd like for the M to be on Sea Beach instead... we need more trains out here!
Not that I don't want the Broadway line to be open, but it was really nice to have the M extended to Coney island on the Sae Beach while it lasted!
Why do you think this would make anyone happy? It's basically a service cut.
Let me relax that a bit. It would make some people happy. It would make some people unhappy. I suspect it would make more unhappy than it makes happy.
Allow me to debunk the notion that the N gets "poor treatment" by going through the tunnel. Locals are neither inferior nor superior to expresses; they offer service to more people at the expense of speed. I'm sure the N riders from Astoria and Brooklyn who use the lower Manhattan stations appreciate the direct service.
Here's who your plan manages to inconvenience:
Bay Ridge residents destined for points on Broadway
Sea Beach passengers destined for local stops
all 4th Avenue local passengers (including those transferring from the F), especially those destined for points on Broadway (but even those for lower Manhattan have half the service they had previously)
West End passengers destined for lower Manhattan (via the Nassau line)
Brighton local passengers destined for express stations in Manhattan
lower Manhattan passengers, especially those from Staten Island who already have reduced service
Broadway local passengers, who now have half the service they had previously
Q passengers north of Prospect Park, who until now could ignore the diamond-circle distinction
all subway riders, who have to put up with yet another service change
all subway riders, who have to put up with increased crowds on their trains to make up for reduced Broadway service
train crews and station personnel, who have to deal with yet more lost New Yorkers
What happens on weekends? Is the M extended through Manhattan to Brooklyn or does it run two disconnected shuttles?
Leave it as it is.
Fewer people are going to Lower Manhattan - for one obvious and tragic reason. It does not need both the N and the R there right now. If anything, the Broad Street area could use more service.
I don't think a lot of N line riders like having their train as a local (at least in Brooklyn), except maybe to 49th Street which has a large concentration of office towers in that area (probably one reason why the W stops there). Express trains are more appreciated in the outer boros because people live further away from Midtown and Downtown and want to get there quicker. Standing on a crowded subway car and having to deal with tons of local stops is not fun.
Many of your points make sense, but considering that there are fewer trips to lower Manhattan due to the savage desruction of the World Trade Center, there doesn't need to be both the N and R down there and there should be an improvement in the Broad Street area of Lower Manhattan.
But let me analyze them:
1. Bay Ridge riders can transfer to the N or W (or the R at DeKalb which in my suggestion is rerouted down the Brighton Local tracks, eliminating the need for two Q services)
2. The Sea Beach line is a long way off from Manhattan and now that Midtown has a even higher percentage of jobs, it might be better to have the N get there faster.
3. 4th Avenue local passengers can transfer to the rerouted R at DeKalb.
4. West End riders headed for Nassau Street can switch to the M at 36th or Pacific. Considering how few M trains run on West End, it's not a big loss.
5. Brighton local riders can get off to catch the express. I'm sure a lot of them already do.
6. Staten Island commuters seem to be using the 4 and 5 a lot more (from what I've been hearing). Even with the longer walk, it's still faster to Midtown on the 4 or 5.
7. Service on the R can be beefed up with the N back on the express tracks.
8. The R designation can be retained for the Brighton Local, eliminating the need for two Q trains.
9, 10 and 11. That always happens and it's going to happen again in three weeks when the V train makes it debut.
The R's R46s would be providing service on the Brighton Local. The Q (its sole service being the Brighton express) can be all R68s. That frees up the R40s that are currently being used on the diamond-Q. They can be used to run more frequent service on the extended M and the rerouted R. They don't need both the N and R on lower Broadway right now. The N can go back to being express.
Here's who his plan manages to convenience:
Bay Ridge passengers destined for points on Broad/Nassau Street, which is a more important part of downtown, especially now.
Sea Beach passengers destined for express stops. How many people actually need to go to Prince, 8th, 23rd or 28th?
Passengers elsewhere who get more service from reassigned trains.
So losing Lower Manhattan access is bad for West End, yet somehow gaining it is bad for Bay Ridge?
They can transfer to the express. At least the local serves those same stops. Currently, all Brighton service goes to the same place in Manhattan. IMHO a useless waste. And how is it that for Sea Beach passengers to lose Downtown access is bad, yet at the same time another line gaining it is also bad? Make up your mind.
Lower Manhattan also has reduced occupancy now, I think you know why.
Q trains are more frequent than R trains, aren't they? Certainly they could be more frequent without the need to assign trains to the R.
The Q-circle can become the R, that letter would be available.
Screw them, change is a part of life, if they can't put up with it, then tough.
The same number of trains will run, just more of them will go where needed.
If this is a problem, then a lot of people need to reconsider their career choice.
I agree The Q train should go to ether 63st tunnel or to Queens via montage not terminate in a gay fasion at 57 st. Maybe the Q should run through 63 and go as express to queens or local instead of the F. Or replace the R (damn thoses R-46s, if I had the power those R-46 would be resting in the deleware bay not the redbirds) with the Q giving R-68s and R-40 (slant) to queens. I am sick and tired of R-46s. They were intended to go upto 80 mph on new rows (LIRR, 2nd ave). I think they should be rebuilt with padded seats and given to LIRR (no third rail shoe change) or metro north (whould require new third rail shoe and maybe pantogram). They are too pathetic and slow for subway service (slow doors, bad acceleration, can't walk between cars, stupid hard bucket seats (can't they replace them with padded seats like on the busses (try Q-75 it's all padded all the time except for rush hour)), weak AC, railfan window from *ell you can't even see the speedometer and the tunnel is in double vision, etc.
I guess we can take it that you don't like R-46's?
This raises a question: Did the brown (R) run R46s? I know they only went as far as Chambers, but is that still allowed?
:-) Andrew
I don't think so. unless the brooklyn end has different equipment than the rest of the Rs, it was all old graffiti coated cars who's model number i forget. I actually have an old schedule (!) of the RR dating back to at least the 70's which shows a seperate RR heading to chambers - back when the RR was in the green circle...
that raises a questions: when did the 'brown r' end service? was it with the N/r flip in 89 (or was it 90?).
i know R46's have a brown diamond R in their roll signs...
The N/R flip was in '87. They eliminated the brown R in December '88 when J/Z service was instituted.
87? zoinks. ...the B to astoria kept rolling though until sometime around 89-90 no? (i should know this, but i foget the specific years...)
yeah...5/24/1987...N/R flippedso R could use Jamaica Yard, since N was based out of COney Island...R no longer had to run as a non-revenue service between Bay Ridge and Stillwell
yes... the old R was one of the last that was entirely graffiti covered, as well as being pretty dirty and frewuently breaking down due to lack of yarding and proper care half the time, so everyone (at least on the astoria end) welcomed the switch, which immediately brought clean, reliable cars like the r68's to town.
Yes. In '86 and early '87, Astoria had the B and R during rush hours. B's terminated at QBP during midday hours. So the B ran from Astoria before the N/R flip and stayed there until December '88 when the 6th Avenue Manny B tracks reopened.
This was a R-46 at 71st/ Forest Hills leaving to do the layup.
The brown diamond R I think used to run local up 4 Ave thru the tube and go up to Chambers St. A long time ago. Probably if any of us could check the different roll signs of several cars, we'll find unused and forgotten letters and destinations.
where could a get a compleate IND rollsign (the letters are the most important)
I don't know where you could get a complete roll sign. Maybe if you wake friends with a T/O, C/R, C/TA Car Cleaner or RCI you moght be able to roll a few yourself.
The brown R actaully ran till 12/88, when Archer Ave opened.
Not many lines (other then the 9) have been elimianted lately. There are more never used letters and numbers than forgotten ones.
Examples: Brown N, green 8 & 10, purple 11, gray K, and until recently, Yellow W.
Soem trains also carry white letters P & Y, for undesignated routes. Some years back, there was actually talk of running a P train during an LIRR strike that never took place. It would have run almost the route of the old KK, but this time, from Parsons/Archer, along the Eastern Division, thru the Chrystie connection to the 6th Ave line.
The strike was averted, the P train never got a run, so we don't know if this routw would have done better in the 1990s than it did in the 1970s.
What was the gray K, did it have anything to do with the L train?
The P was to be during an AMTRAK strike, LIRR trains would run to Jamaica, hence there would be a need to bring passengers into Midtown (not enough capacity to do it all through Flatbush). The P would switch to 8th Avenue at West 4th.
I've seen that too.
I believe the GOLD "N" with the white letter was an error made when the rollsigns were manufactured. It is a couple of shades darker than the current-day black-letter "N". On the other hand, and this is reaching, perhaps someone in the plant where the rollsigns were made remembered the ORIGINAL color of the "N", which is exactly what this sign shows, thought that the new design was WRONG, and made a small run of rollsigns with the original color. When illuminated, the white "N" shows up clearly, just as it did on the R42 signs in cars #4550-4595.
wayne
I'm surprised these end roll signs were missed when the slants were GOH in the late 80s!
As for the color, it looks more like sixth avenue orange than anything else.
Kinda related... What's with the lighter yellow and a white N letter instead of a black letter?
Well, Mr. Greenberger is pretty sure he saw a BROWN "N". The color probably just didn't reproduce well on the computer.
But, since you ask about why the letter is white, please note that in fact, from 1967-1979, the N did actually use a white letter, against a yelloe bullet. The yellow was just a shade thatt could still show a white letter.
Also, just for fun, an orange N could, conceiveably run along the Sea Beach, then at De Kalb make a switch to the north tracks of the Manny B and run up sixth avenue. Consider that the Q, which always BELONGED on the Broadway BMT, ran in orange guise for many eyars on 6th Ave.
I may be wrong. It sure looked brown to me. The image I posted is a free scan from Snapfish, and Snapfish scans often have the colors off. The prints should arrive in the mail in a few days, and now that I've purchased myself a free scanner, this will be one of my photo contest entries, whatever color it may be.
How would your proposed orange N get to Astoria?
An orange N wouldn't get to Astoria. Could from the Sea Beach line to the Sixth Avenue line to Queens Blvd or CPW, maybe even to the Concourse.
I wasn't actually proposing this service, just sort of kicking around a thought.
YOU actually saw the brown N, and are in the best postion to say what color you saw. A brown N that ran from Sea Beach to Chambers Street or something is far more (though again, I'm not suggesting it) logical (in what I see as TA thinking) than an orange one.
As (I think) I said -- on the spot, it looked like a brown N. I thought someone had played a mild joke; this was a few hours after the yellow N was reinstated. It hadn't occurred to me at the time that there never was a brown N. Perhaps it was dark yellow or gold. It wasn't orange and it definitely wasn't today's standard yellow.
I have also seen what I swear is an orange "R", also on an R46.
:-) Andrew
Whoops. Not ALSO on an R46 (the brown "N" was on an R40.)
:-) Andrew
The 2:32 train to Princeton on the NJT was like a can of sardines, crowds almost at crush level.
Turkey day is likely the biggest travel day of the year along with the day before and the Sunday after.
Very simple question: Why is public transit on a 'holiday' schedule (meaning bad service: one train per hour in most cases).
Speaking as Joe Passenger, wouldn't you think NJT, Amtrak et al would put on extra trains, or run the trains on a normal weekday schedule, to meet demand? Penn Station was mobbed and the rush to get to the downstairs platform bordered on dangerous. Someone could have gotten trampled.
Any transit professionals care to chime in on why service will NOT meet demand on holidays?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanksgiving is likely the only holiday when overcrowding is a problem. Metro-North, for one, has a special Thanksgiving weekend schedule (with dedicated printed timetables) which is more extensive than the regular holiday/Sunday scedule.
I returned from the SubTalk Chicago field trip on Labor Day on the Lake Shore to NYP, connecting train to PHL. NYP was MOBBED. The timetable said that the next non-Metroliner-non-Acela Express did not operate on Labor Day, but it was listed on the train board. It was standing room only. The aisles were packed. Passengers in Newark remained on the platform because they couldn't get shoehorned onto the train. I give Amtrak credit for running the train in spite of what the timetable said.
In the case of the NYCT, there is no real holiday shcedule. Most lines run on a weekend service although there may be a suplimental schedule here and there.
The LIRR had several extra trains today as I'm sure MNRR did too.
As to the number of trains in service, this was an unusual holiday and there was no general concensus as to how public transit wouldbe impacted. AMTRAK figured correctly although they apparently didn't add enough seats to their regular schedule. NJT likely figured wrong. I'm sure next year there will be many more junior train crews workingthe holidays on all systems.
Luckily, I've only had to work the NJT Northeast Corridor ONCE on Thanksgiving Day in my career, and that was 2 years ago. The 4:32pm out of New York was very crowded that day, they had us waive the penalty due to long lines at the machines and agents. Of course that meant that everybody was buying their tickets on the train. Between that and the typical rookie/amatuer questions being asked (eg. "How many stops is it until New Brunswick?"), I got through maybe 1/4 of a car between New York and Newark. Last year I was lucky, I was out "qualifying", I had the holiday off. This year, I'm working Raritan, it was a breeze. The 4 trains that I worked were lighter than normal, we had 3 cars open on each, we could have gotten away with 2. I work Sunday night, however, and that should be rough. Oh, well.
Just as ridiculous is running normal weekday service on the day after Thanksgiving, plenty of room for everyone, you think they could even it out somehow between the 2 days.
Peace,
ANDEE
And a few more TA workers can easily get a long weekend!
Because it is New Jersey thats why At least you have commutter rail on weekends and holidays MARC and VRE in the DC area only believe in weekday peak hours only, eben on the route between Balt and DC weekday only, they say take Amtrak which doubles the Marc Fares between DC and BWI Airport Station
At last, The 63rd street connector brochure is now available at some subway station. I picked mine at the Fresh Pond Rd (M) station on way to relative's thankgiving dinner. The brochure is formated in the same way as the one on Manhattan Bridge Service with English and Spanish. Sorry, that I don't have a scanner to show guys who live 2,000 miles away. But u can obtain one by the MTA through mail and the # is 718-330-1234.
Happy Holiday everybody!
When a shortened route for an overnight period becomes extended to the regular route, and all the trains start running the regular route wouldn't that create a gap in service? For example: The W runs as an overnight shuttle from 36 to Coney Island. At one point the route becomes extended up to Astoria. So if all the trains start going past 36th to Astoria it's going to take hours for that first train to come back, and since all the trains are going past 36th St there's nothing to come back and run the southbound trip from 36 to CI until that first train out of Astoria comes back. My assumption is that they don't make the transition from night to day with one breath, that they turn maybe every other train around at 36th and send it back to CI. But looking at BAHN layouts, and having it setup so that at one point, all trains start exceeding 36th to Astoria, you can end up waiting at 36th for a Southbound W but you'll never get one until that first W that went up there comes back. Just to confirm, what do they do in this case?
It's called a put in
The oppisite of a put-in is a drop-out.
Very good but he is talking about when you extend the service for the daytime not when you shorten it over the midnights.
Four jobs originate at 38th street yard early in the morning, taking the place of runs that were previously turning back on the W but now run to Astoria
Now my next question about the R. How is this transition done, I think they keep some Rs at 38th st yard too? Also, how long are the shuttles, and if they're full length they have to wait until one of the first Rs out of Jamaica get down to 95th to start running back into Manhattan. If they are shortened length, do they just get taken out of service once the Jamaica trains get down there, or do they get connected at the last second?
There are R put-ins at 95 St, Jamaica Yard, City Hall and Lex/63 (unless it's been replaced by a train for another line). There are also a couple of W trains at City Hall which run light to Astoria and go into service there.
Usually, the put-ins at Lex/63 are for N/W trains. They have one put-in on the R there.
Now my next question about the R. How is this transition done, I think they keep some Rs at 38th st yard too?
I hadn't heard of that, but It's not impossible.
If they are shortened length, do they just get taken out of service once the Jamaica trains get down there, or do they get connected at the last second?
I would guess that they don't make or cut trains in tunnels. I always thought that it was the shuttles that laid up on the center track in Bay Ridge.
After the last R train to Continental leaves 95th St. and the shuttle service starts leaving 95th St. on the late PM, they do a half trip to 36th St., discharge, relay and then layup on the express tracks between 45th St. & 59th St., because trains are still coming south from Continental, those trains are no longer needed........ On the early AM, when shuttle service is discontinued, the last time I checked, after the last shuttle leaves 36th St. and returns to 95th St., the next train to 95 goes in service at 59th St. (one of the returning layups), next train comes from 57/7th (laid up overnite behind the wall at Lex./63), the next one is the first train from COntinental. The remaining layups at 59th St. middle go to 95 lite and enter service northbound. Hope this helps.
R layups are also made on 2 track from 95 St. station to 86 St. station. About 3 trains lay up there. R shuttle service "wrong rails" on 1 track from 95 to 86, and 1 track between 95 and 86 operates under an absolute block.
I have been at 95 when the last 4 car shuttle arrives. One shuttle is already in the station with a T/O in the North Cab. The second shuttle arives (T/O in South cab) and the two half trains couple into one full length train.
The shuttle trains ared used from regular R service. They cut one train on the stand at 95th St and they use the two shuttles for service. The spur track north of 86 St is used for regular road trains. Trains are cut in tunnels, but not usually on the main line. For example, G OPTO trains are taken from R service on Friday evening, taken to the relay tracks downstairs at Continental, cut, and then placed into G service.
And R trains do not use 38 St.Yard for layups.
I don't think they would make or cut trains in the tunnels.
I always thought is was the shuttles that laid up on the center track at 95th....
But I dunno.
IIRC, that center track at 95th St. can fit two 8 car trains. Because the line runs the equivalent of 10 car trains, only one train, a gap train is laid up there during the off peak hours.
I work the R overnight in Brooklyn one night a week. During the overnight, many R trains are parked on the express track south of 36. Also an R train is kept on one track at 95 (in addition to the center track mentioned in the thread.)
Oooops. I guess I'm a hammerhead.
In my NYCT BAHN I just left the shuttles "On-Duty" longer than they should have been -- until the full length trips started coming in from the north. I used seperate trains for the shuttle runs, with a seperate route "WESHUTT".
Not elegant, or prototype, but it works!
can you send me some of your BAHN layouts. I just keep a collection and am willing to add any layout that comes up. It's okay if you don't want to of course.
http://hometown.aol.com/edsoftco/bahn_eng.html
Try that URL for almost a thousand different BAHN layouts. Some are not up to date, they are for older versions -- but literally from around the world.
thanks
Stand by...
Either the TA is running way more service than is needed today, or service in the morning rush hour (when I rarely travel) is always much better than at other times.
I entered the nearly empty 86th Street platform at about 7:40. Within a minute, a roomy R-142 2 pulled in (yes, on the local track). I boarded and grabbed one of the many available seats. At 72nd Street we were met by a Redbird 2 on the express track, to which I transferred -- this one was even emptier, with only three or four people in my car, and I got to stand at the railfan window for that wonderful express run best experienced on a Redbird. (The a/c was blowing nice and strong -- how's that for late November? I would have gotten a picture of the two 2's side-by-side but I didn't want to miss them both.) As we pulled in at 42nd, an R-62A 5 was pulling out across the platform, signed with terminals of 242nd and Flatbush -- if the crew has to change the signs anyway at the end of the run, why not sign the train as a 1 rather than a 5? Our C/R told us that we could transfer there to the local, even though -- as I had suspected -- we were switched to the local track before 34th. Total travel time, from station entry to station exit: about 12 minutes.
On the return trip 20 minutes later, I discovered that, from the south end of the northbound local platform, there's an excellent view of the express track. If you stand there and you see headlights reflected on the track, walk -- don't run! -- to the express track and you'll still have time to spare before the train enters. Unfortunately, the view of the local tracks isn't quite so great; to my surprise, a local pulled in alongside the express.
The erroneous signs at 72nd Street have been removed. Now there are no signs over the tracks. I guess that's better than the alternative.
Oh, and my post recommending an M104 Limited? The M104 I rode this morning made no stops between 79th and 86th. (The driver had to stop for a green light so we wouldn't get too far ahead of schedule.)
Go out and ride! Enjoy the empty seats.
The day after Thanksgiving is always an off-day for TA trains. By this afternoon it'll probably built up a bit when shoppers wake up after their dinner yesterday.
And it will be even worse tomorrow, with all the rest coming out of their Thanksgiving respite and traveling on the routes to the Mall.
Good luck to all the staff working those routes! It should be an interesting season.
And pleeeese thank the crews who inspected and serviced the trainsets working those routes that go unoticed as well as the many other TA employees that make the greatest subway system in the world GO in the greatest city of the world. Peter
A regular M-F schedule was ran today. A waste of money. You have the regular number of rush hour trains, yet the overwelming majority of businesses were closed today. Therefore, empty rush hour trains.
David got one of my 'quality trainsets' and didn't get stuck anywheres. So what if was a holiday? Rely on Redbirds for serious transit. They stink, they smell, they're oily and greasy and black from head to toe. And so am I. Peter
The MBTA service in Boston has the same problem in the Friday after Thanksgiving. Weekday service is too much, and weekend service is too little. Something in-between would be great, but I suspect devising a special schedule for one or two days a year is too much work... so overcapacity is chosen over undercapacity.
Sorry if this's been covered before, but does anyone know if the rebuilding of the Stillwell Ave. terminal will extend to the West 8th Street station?
Hello all... I am researching a potential article (I work at a magazine) and am trying to obtain some information about those baffling signs that decorate the beams that support the ceiling of the underground walkway between the 42 St A/C/E (Port Authority Bus Terminal) stops and the Times Square hub. Has anyone seen them? "Overslept?" asks the first one. And then, "So tired." Nine beams later, "If late," and then, "get fired." The second quatrain, again with intervals of about nine beams: "Why bother?" "Why the pain?" "Just go home." "Do it again." The walkway ends with a mounted photograph of a bed, the edge of its down comforter invitingly unfurled. I am trying to figure out whose idea this was, when they went up, anything at all. I would be very grateful for any leads or advice. If you can talk on the phone, my work number is 212.286.5452. Thanks for reading.
Probably an ad paid for and installed by a bed company.
Hello all... I am researching a potential article (I work at a magazine) and am trying to obtain some information about those baffling signs that decorate the beams that support the ceiling of the underground walkway between the 42 St A/C/E (Port Authority Bus Terminal) stops and the Times Square hub.
It's public art. Try contacting the "Arts for Transit" organization.
How long has it been up? It looks a lot older (and grimier) than the typical piece of subway art.
It's been there as long as I can remember, which is about 5-10 years.
Probably inspired by the old "Burma Shave" roadside ads back in the 40s.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm pretty sure it's less than 20 years old.
thanks folks... it was put up in 1991, one of the winners of an open competition held by creative stations, the now-defunct arm of arts for transit responsible for temporary installations. it was supposed to be up for only one year, but has since been extended indefinitely.
Can anyone send me photos of the old stations of the Market-Frankford (Blue Line) El from the 1970's-1980's?
daves electric railroads page ?? a link on this website ...
Yes on the rail transit sites on this webpage !!
DAVES ELECTRIC RAILROADS
on nyc,subway.org "other rail transit sites section"
( i thought U knew about this ) ....lol !!!
Can anyone send me photos of the old stations of the Market-Frankford (Blue Line) El from the 1970's-1980's? E-mail me where I can find them at IceGuy7412@aol.com.
Yes, we know it'll never happen. But it seems possible now to easily extend the IRT East Side local from the present terminal loop in front of City Hall east under Barclay and then south thru the 7WTC basement into 'the bathtub', and perhaps further onto West Street.
That connection would be unnecessary and too dificult. First, the Lexington Ave. line already connects to 1 loop at South Ferry. Second, a tunnel from City Hall to the WTC would requre going under the NR tunnels along Broundway and winding through the foundations of the large office buildings (such as the Woolworth Building). Additionally, there is no need for a crosstown line at that point in lower manhattan because everything is within convenient walking distance.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Be the first to post on my new message board!
The one modification I'd like to see (but probably won't since it ain't my money being used) would be an extension of the South Ferry Loop station on it's northern end, so that a 10-car train could fit in the station.
You could take down the mosaics and streighten the platform more so cars will fit in without gap fillers. and put the mosaics back up.
Another possible solution would be to extend it on a straight leg north of the station of the of the station, and use the original curved part as a pedestrian passageway; this would be somewhat akin to what they did at Brooklyn Bridge in the early '60's.
Which Brooklyn Bridge passageway is a former platform?
None - "somewhat" akin is the key phrase. Brooklyn Bridge station curved significantly at its south end, needing gap fillers on the platforms to allow safe access to the trains. When the station was extended to allow ten car trains they extended it northward far enough to eliminate the curved section of platform at the south end of the station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I want to see it so as to connect PATH to the Lex local. The tunnel would be deep enough under Woolworth building so that it shouldn't be much of a problem. There is a need for NJ to access the East Side and is cheaper than connecting Penn Station with GCT. This of it in that context as the lesser of two evils.
Is there any program where I can make my own subway map?And if Adobe Acrobat reader can do that tell me how please?
Acrobat *Reader* can't create anything.
Most of the maps you see on this site were hand drawn, freehand, in MS Paint. Or if you're a Linux user, Xpaint.
-Dave
I also like to know how to make them but what program was used to make the official MTA Map.
Possibly Adobe Illustrator, at least for the PDF version. Fairly steep learning curve.
Indeed it was Illustrator. The NY Times did a feature on the guy who draws the map, how he would get calls at 5am from H.Q. saying "We just reopened {STOP_NEAR_WTC}, we need a new version printed today -- please make the change and email it to the printers".
Where can get a copy of the map in Adobe Illustrator's native format. I know what it is and have it but never used it.
I'm pretty sure that would be a trade secret of the MTA.
Illustrator is pretty expensive to buy if you don't use it. [hint - not a good idea to admit to software piracy in a public forum]
To note: I got it at my school as part of Adobe Web Collection, for a project so I can do it off campus.
You won't be able to get it in AI native format, at least not legally. It is possible to pick up a PDF made in Illustrator (at least version 9 and later) and extract it into a .AI (native Illustrator) file.
However....
That capability can be blocked in the PDF. And the MTA has blocked it.
Guess thats out of the quesion especially since there was that russian guy who got arrested for cracking Adobe Acrobat's Ebook. I don't think Adobe will be easier on me.
I don't think it would be Adobe after you. Illustrator 9.0 has a facility for making an .AI out of a PDF, since the PDF preserves Illustrator layers, which are the key to building and maintaining the map.
Acrobat allows the creator to protect its intellectual property by passwording the conversion ability in the PDF, just as they can prevent printing.
I assume it would be the copyright holder, the MTA, that would be pissed. And I don't think they have much of a sense of humor.
Marcomedia Freehand 10 is a good program. It's a basic drawing program. It's not very complicated, but more powerful than Paint. The only problem is that it saves in *.eps or *.fh10 formats. Photoshop is the only program I know that can read *.eps if you want to convert it to a *.gif or whatever.
EPS (as well as plain .ps and .pdf) can also be read by GhostScript, a free PostScript interpreter. It converts to GIF and other formats.
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/
For Mac users, Graphic Converter is a useful program that reads and converts virtually all types of file formats.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
GraphicConverter is excellent -- I concur. But if you want it to handle .PS, .EPS, or .PDF you need to have Ghostscript.
Here's what I'd use for drawing a map:
Just fooling around (would only show friends): Any old paint program, like MS Paint. Only way to edit is to erase and redraw.
Something to show in public (say, a personal web site): Microsoft Visio / Odessasoft ConceptDraw. These have built in metro drawing modules. Makes it really simple to "Add a local stop" "Add a transfer station". If you move the lines, the stations on the line automatically move with it.
Something that would actually be used: Adobe Illustrator/Macromedia Freehand. A bit more work, but you have ultimate control.
Technical-level (scale map, showing engineering features): A real CADD tool (say, AutoCAD)
Can Mrcrosoft Visio or Odessasoft be saved in PDF form?
If you have Acrobat Distiller as a printer driver, I would guess you could use it to create a PDF, but not sure.
You can make quite a competent map in Photoshop, if you have or can afford it. This map:
was done entirely in Photoshop.
For a more complex map, especially one you need to revise on a regular basis, Illustrator would be better. But neither of these programs is a walk in the park.
Visio is easier and has built in stuff or subway type maps, but is fussier and less versatile, IMO.
How much is photoshop and who makes it?
Adobe, matters
Photoshop goes for about $600. Adobe Photoshop Elements, a lighter version that has about 99% of everything anyone but a professional graphics artist would use, is less that $100. They also had a $30 rebate program if you had an earlier or competitor's program, but I'm not sure if that is still available.
I used Photoshop Elements for my (admittedly crude) LIRR Timeline maps in my LIRR History Website
They also had a $30 rebate program if you had an earlier or competitor's program, but I'm not sure if that is still available.
Yes, through the end of the year at least... might be into next year, I'm not sure (I'm going to upgrade from PhotoDeluxe next month when I also upgrade from Mac OS 8.5 to 10.1).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I LOVE those timeline maps, Bob!
One picture is worth...
I LOVE those timeline maps, Bob!
Thanks, Paul.
LIRR history is certainly complicated! There must be over a hundred different corporate entities involved.
Can sometimes be had for cheap on ebay. Be careful as always; some people sell pirated versions.
How can I get a ready made subway map like the one NYC has with streets and proper geography and scale for editing. I would like to be able to make a map which has all the line I would like to be built. I have planned most of the subway system how I would like to be built but it is on standard issue maps and markers don't look so good
email it to me...i'll create one for you... WARNING: This May Take a while, though
Well first I have to scan it and that might take a while. Also if I do scan it will it be copyright infringment and will Kinkos create problems? Ever wondered what to manhatten in 8 minutes is (90 mph from Jamaica LIRR into ind 6th ave (Super express train, IND second system)) and Jamaica Lirr to Newerk Airport in 45 minutes or 30 depend on which train you take. Also I am a written an essay about the route. I will eventualy get around to posting it. It is 40 % done. Where can I get a track map of north east New Jersey commuter rail?
Microsoft Map Point lets you extract fairly detailed maps and even use them commercially, with the proper copyright notices. They even have a facility that will automatically amke a web page out of a map you extract from the program. Of course the resulting page, very Microsoft-ish, is laden with subfiles and a directory structure and their copyright notices up the wazoo.
I don't know whether the program would produce maps of large enough areas of the City to cobble together what you want to do.
You might be able to figure out more about Map Point here.
How much detail do you want in a NJ track map? www.njtransit.com would be a good place to look. Also try www.columbia.edu/~brennan/subway
Every switch and line that a train can go over without derailing or once existing track.
njtrainsit-none
www.columbia.edu/~brennan/subway - not enough detail
Odessasoft is the company, ConceptDraw is the product.
There are some free and low-cost PDF writers out there (for instance http://www.epublishstore.com/details.asp?ProdID=267 ). GhostScript (and other utilities at http://cgm.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/PSpdf.html ) will convert a .ps file (like the print to file command produces) to a .pdf file.
Acrobat Distiller (which comes with the full Acrobat product) will "distill" a PDF from a Postscript file.
As I had mentioned in the past, I have a NYC Subway Map shirt in my
line. As an official licensee of the MTA, I was given a disc of the
map to use for my artwork. I was told by about 4 highly sophisticated
graphic artists that they had never seen a more complex document. It
has layer after layer, and was a nightmare to work with.
That said, I think the map is a beautiful thing. It's far more subtle
than past maps. Have you ever noticed the "stippled" blue around
the boros at the water's edge?
Subway grrl
I made a bootleg Spanish translation of the M98 bus schedule for the Latinos in my neighborhood, and I re-created the routemap on the back by tracing over a scan of the original using Corel Presentations. I created the rest of the schedule using Corel WordPerfect.
If I do say so myself, the finished product is quite impressive and, er, anatomically correct.
--Mike
This past Sunday in the morning I rode the F train from 34 St. - Herald Sq. to Roosevelt Av. (Queens LCL) via 63rd St. with my mom and my younger brother.
Questions will be underlined.
Here are some interesting things I have noticed, as this is the first time I rode the Subway in 7 weeks. (Nothing to do or fear of terrorist attacks)
1) We got off PATH and walked to the "Uptown and Queens" platform of the B,D,F, and S subway. On the express track, I see a D train waiting for its dispatcher's bell, but I notice something very interesting.
The first car that I had spotted was #2511! That is the 3rd time I've seen that car. The first and the second time I've seen it going downtown at W4 St.
This train was not "sailing the flag" as many other trains I've seen did.
2) That train leaves with trailing car #2510. After a few minutes, an R68 D train arrives on the same track with lead car #2620 sailing the flag.
We waited an awful long time for an uptown F. When it came, we boarded car #5609 sailing the flag.
We go to 42nd St. - 6Av, but when we were pulling out of the station, I noticed a blue strip hanging down from the ceiling in the middle of the platform facing towards the tracks. On it were the text: R-110, about five of them side by side.
What is the purpose and meaning of having this sign for the conductor to see?
3) We continue our ride and at 57 St.-6 Av., when we were leaving, I saw a door leading right out onto the tracks on the s/b platform! It was built in through the wall and it had all sorts of red labels and such on the door.
Can anyone tell me why that door leads right to the tracks and what it leads to, etc.?
4) Everything was normal on the n/b ride. On the return trip, we boarded an R train and the LCD signage as follows:
R - Bay Ridge
R - 95 St.
R - via 60 St.
The LCD looks empty and it showed those three.
On the stretch between Queens Plaza and Lex. Av. I could have best experienced it reached 54mph. The R was of the R46 class-type.
5) At 49 St., I was lucky enough to spot a R40 Slant going uptown, and at 42nd St. - Times Square, I saw another N train, but it was of an R68(A) and it was on the exp. track.
Was the N supposed to be on the exp. tracks going uptown this past Sunday?
Our train both ways was "sailing the flag", but I have one question about them.
a) Where did the T/A get the self-adhesive flags to put on the trains?
b) How many flags have the T/A ordered?
c) Where does the T/A affix these flags?
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
The blue R110 thing is the special R110B spotting board. Since the R110B is 9 67 foot cars, the conductor's position is in a different place than the other cars.
Thats because there isn't a 4 1/2 portion!
The R110 marker board has already been explained; I'll try to tackle the "door to tracks" question.
First, the red and white striping should be on the diagonal and indicates a "no clearance" area where there isn't sufficient room between the wall and a passing train for someone to stand safely. There is probably an exact distance specification, but I don't know what it is. The striping should also be made of a material that gives it a bit of a rainbow shimmer when you look at it (the better to call your attention to it).
I don't know the purpose of the specific door you mention, but most of them lead to service rooms for things like ejector pumps (drainage), track lubrication (reduce squealing and wear on wheels/rails) and so forth. There is usually an engraved plate on the door saying which group it belongs to, along with an emergency contact number (which may be abbreviated to x-yyyy, presumably the rest of 718-33x-yyyy).
) Where did the T/A get the self-adhesive flags to put on the trains?
They were printed at the TA Bergen Street Sign shop
b) How many flags have the T/A ordered?
Enough to place 2 on every car except the R-32s.
c) Where does the T/A affix these flags?
Each maintenance shop is doing their own fleet.
>>>Enough to place 2 on every car except the R-32s. <<<
So, they do not plan on putting flags on the R-32s. I was wondering how they planned to do this.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you've noticed the carbody design of an R32, I don't think the grooves that run the length and the height of the train will allow it to be "sturdily" stuck on the train.
Also, notice the size of the flags. They are a little too big to place next to the flat portions next to the doors on both sides of R32's.
It's possable to tranfer from one union to anther like from utah to new york I like to come back to N.Y.C. and drive bus or be T.O.
Thanks
If both unions are AFL/CIO you can even if it is a different occupation. Just transfer from one Local to another, I don t know about AFL-Teamsters. Check with your Union. I did from Retail Clerk to TWU when I went to work for the airlines
I don't understand the point, if you quit one job and get another, and the new job has a different union, you get the new union. Unless it's a trade union and it's the same trade.
Nope say you work in A&P and belong to retail clerks. Which is a member of AFL/CIO, get a job with the MTAS as a conductor. TWU, you take a withdrawl from the 1st Union, and when you join the 2nd Union, you do not have to pay initiation dues, since both are members of AFL/CIO. You are just transfering from one union to another under the same umbrella org. Believe me. I have done it 3 times. When you get a non union job you go to the last union and get a withdrawl card, that puts you inactive.
There is a siding west of the Woodhaven Blvd. station. Was this supposed to connect an IND second system line coming from Bayside?
Conversion to an expres stop. It's on both sides of the station.
Has New York tansit always published subway schedules? I don't remember them in the early 70's, but never really needed one since the trains ran so frequently that you just showed up when you wanted to go.
A public schedule only seems useful for infrequent service, when you have to plan your departures around the train's timetable. Hope that's not where we're heading.
The 1st ones came out in 1956 and lasted less then a year. But they were station schedules, not line schedules, and only told you what time a train was due.
They only started doing them regularly in the last 10-20 years.
Yes, I far as I remember there were always subway schedules.
Maybe as far as you remember, but they did not have them except for what i mentioned in 55-56 in the 40-60s
And obviously in 1977 when the pictured schedule was published.
Maybe as far as you remember, but they did not have them except for what i mentioned in 55-56 in the 40-60s
Huh?
They 1st started in 55-56, never had them before. My Uncle who is 84 was a BMT conductor and is still alive, and I asked him. He started working in 41 for 30 years, 25 on the Brighton
Interesting how it was printed by
"Metro Transit Schedules. Inc."
A quasi-governmental adjunct of the TA ?
Yes I know and saw, but that was 77. I was talking prior to the 60s
Channel 4 news is doing a story on the underground part of ground zero. They showed the PATH station. There is a train down there that's partially crushed. Thank God everyone got out. They also showed rubble on the tracks. It was hard to watch as I saw many places I had been, turnstyles I went through, and, hardest of all, the Hudson News stand where I used to buy my sodas and paper before riding to Newark. VERY depressing and sad. :(
It's amazing how bad the damage is, and how one part could look totally destroyed and right near notthing more than dust. When they showed the crushed train, they also showed the bar nearby in the station that aside from dust, looked ready for business.
I tried to figure out how many times I'd walked through there (the WTC & PATH). After I got to the figure of 3,524 times I figure it was too depressing to know for certain.
Hundreds of times for me. Rode the PATH escalators hundreds of times. I also have photos from the top of 2 WTC taken 2 months before the attack. VERY depressing and frightening. I've wanted to go to the top of Empire State, but haven't built up the nerve yet. I'm not really scared, it's like some deep physcological thing I have to get over. And, I know I spelled that word wrong. :)
"VERY depressing and sad. :( "
Thats how I felt after seeing ground zero for the first time this past Wednesday. When walking to the site, I realized that I was on the street that I had seen video of people running as the towers collapsed. As I saw the major destruction, I could recall a great time w/ a friend of mine this past May when we had walked through there together, and I was realizing just how wonderful the downtown area (especially by the water) was. Now it looks like a major earthquake hit the small (yet major) area :-( -Nick
On channel 4 they'ed just showed the Path platforms and a Path train(Partially crushed)below what's left of 4WTC.I am going to try to get some of those photo's.
How? I have a TV capture card. I was thinking of getting some screen caps as I'm taping the news. I would assume that would violate copyright laws, though. I didn't think the PATH station, being that deep, would be so damaged!
Well the tunnels are under 1 and 2 WTC(The Twin Towers).
Just saw this monents ago on Ch.4 (WNBC-TV) news.
Right at 5:00PM the first story was about beneath ground zero and a tour with the Port Authority Police.
When they got to the PATH platforms, there was a 7 car train frozen in time as was the surrounding station.
PA cars #143 and #180 seemed intact, although #180s door panel on the opposite side was punched in.
Now the bad news, they videoed the crushed car and it was a Kawasaki PA-4, number not known. To the left of the crushed car was the concrete ceiling a;most touching the platform. Those cars are gonna be there for some time.
Bill "Newkirk"
Were there any bodies?
"Were there any bodies? "
No, during the search for victims, that area was checked. No one found dead or alive.
Bill "Newkirk"
I know there a web sit for chanel 4 but I can't fine it. Can you please post it, the store might be on it.
Robert
I know there a web sit for chanel 4 but I can't fine it. Can you please post it, the store might be on it.
http://www.channel4.com/news/
<< Just saw this monents ago on Ch.4 (WNBC-TV) news.
Right at 5:00PM the first story was about beneath ground zero and a tour with the Port Authority Police >>
60 Minutes toured below Ground Zero several weeks ago. They also showed the PATH train...and a lot more.
From these photos, I can make out 2 car numbers; 143 and 160, but I think those are the ones that are not as serverly damaged.
The platforms on the Path came out worser than I thought.That's both going to hamper cleanup and tunnel repairs in the future.
Caught this consist of R-62As at Atlantic Ave for a ride into Manhattan this morning.
The north motor was #2381 and all the cars had red stckers under the numbers. For those of you who want to know.
Bill "Newkirk"
This set was one of the 1 trains that goes from 242St to Flatbush, then return uptown as a 5 train to Dyre Ave.
when are they coming to the 7?, weren't they supposed to be there by now? only some of them
The question isn't "WHEN will R-62As be coming to the Flushing Line," it's "WILL R-62As be coming to the Flushing Line?"
As I just mentioned in a separate thread, NOBODY has ever said OFFICIALLY that R-62As will be transferred to the Flushing Line.
David
so then that means the r142's will be coming. because this thing about r62a's coming to the 7 were all rumors. its said in the r142 option order that there will be r142's coming at beggining of 2002. i belive that more than the r62a's oming to the 7
No. All it means is that there has been no official statement one way or the other.
Any move of R-142s to the #7 line would be dependent on the new shop being completed. Of course, the NEW Corona Shop won't be built for a few years although the plans are complete. While you are correct that there has never been amy official statement that R-62As will e moving to Corona, it's been a well rumored fact. Moving R-142s to the #7 line would be a good political move but would not be wise from an operational standpoint.
For those of you who wish to know if they are running express since the return of (N) & (R) thru the tunnel a couple of weeks ago. I rode it express going northbound this afternoon. Someone reported here that they would run local in both directions when the (N) & (R) tunnel route was restored.
Bill "Newkirk"
they ran local up in astoria up until last week - only then did they start running express. they can't make up their minds if it's suppose to be express or local. express seems decent for the ditmars crowd in the mornings, but the pm rush, the w always gets stabbed at 25th av waiting at least 5 minutes for a track to open at ditmars - usually the next local n will have arrived at this point... there's little point for the express, so long as ditmars is a bottleneck. i wouldn't be surprised if they keep switching it from local to express for a long, long time.
How about in Manhatten is the Q and W Local or Exp on Bdwy and does the W run to Queens on Weekends. I am planning to be in NYC with my wife, her mom and cousin and will stay in Corona, will take the 7 to QP and Transfer to Bdwy Line to get to China Town.
w's express in manhattan, all the time unless there's work going on. it stays in brooklyn only on weekends though.
Speaking of work going on, i read in the transit section of the NY1.com site that the Q/W canal street stop is 'sinking'. i can only wonder what might transpire if say, a sinkhole swollowed the tracks there and the manny-b was entirely shut?
fun and excitement.
Does the W run to Astoria on Weekends? if not is the Q Exp On Bdwy?
No, the W only goes as far as Pacific on weekends. The Q (Brighton Local) does run express on Broadway on weekends. Only during the six weeks after 9/11 when the N and R were suspended did the circle-Q and W run local in Manhattan. The W was also the only service in Astoria during that time.
So to get from Corona to China Town, the easiest(did not say the fastest) would be the 7 to QP then the N to Canal even though it is a local on Bdwy, unless the Q at 57th left the same time. I need less stairs
yes. taking the q would mean a few more steps at canal as it's down one more level. plus your likely to get a seat on the N if it's not rush hour. if it is, it might be until 49th or 34th before teh crowd thins.
can't you take the 7 to grand central and take a 6 to canal?
COULD, BUT AT QP CROSS PLATFORM CONNECTIO 7-N
When will you be in NYC? I will be there from Dec. 11-13. Tried to contact you by e-mail, one try returned as undeliverable, other delivered but not answered.
I caught the 7:15AM to Flatbush Ave this morning which is a PEAK train. Handed the conductor my OFF PEAK ticket and asked how much was the "step up". He said that the day after Thanksgiving all trains running were charging OFF PEAK fares whether or not they were PEAK trains. The trains were running on a normal weekday schedule, not a holiday schedule.
Bill "Newkirk"
If the conductor doesn't want or have to charge you the step-up fare, Just smiie and say "Thank you!"
Enjoy the cheer while it lasts...two weeks from today is the eighth anniversary of the L.I.R.R. Massacre, but it prolly won't get as much coverage (which is understandable) since it coincides w/ the sixtieth anniversary of Pearl Harbor. -Nick
Actually the anniversary of the worst LIRR tragedy was two nights ago on Thanksgiving eve with the train crash in the 50's.
Which one they had 2bad crashes in a month back then
The Thanksgiving eve crash was the one in Richmond Hill on the Main Line. The other one that year (more than a month) I think was in March (not sure) in Rockville Centre.
I knew they were close together in time
So I got home about 6 days ago but I think I can tell you of my travels now.
All of this took place on Saturday, November 17th:
My first trip of the day was to the Transit Museum Store at Grand Central to pick up the calendar (which was sold out). I went to 77th Street and R62A 1866 came in. The conductor announced a transfer to the W at 59th and the E and F at 51st. We all know why the W was a mistake but the E and F aren't running on 53rd Street for several weekends and every night for several weeks! Do the C/Rs not get told these things?
I was able to find the store quickly (for once). I looked at the exhibit on the Underground, which focuses more on the early part of the history. I then asked if they had the calendar when it wasn't with the others and if they had any of the post-WTC maps other than 10/28. The answer to both questions was no. They are throwing out the outdated post-WTC maps.
I went to the street and ann RTS came up quite quickly. It was signed:
M103 E HARLEM
M103 125TH STREET
M103 VIA 3RD AVENUE
(BLANK)
The orange and purple LIMITED sign was in the window. My stop is a limited stop anyway, so I got on without asking any questions, but many other people were surprised when a bus ran limited on a Saturday, and it was an M103 which never has scheduled limited service. It didn't appear like there was a scheduling gap, but I sure appreciated the limited. Some people missed their stops and those waiting at local stops were not happy to see the bus go by. I think the removal of the LIMITED STOPS PR sign was a mistake. They need it for these situations. I had seen two of the Orion VIs earlier in the day on Lexington and I kinda wanted to know if the bus was limited or not. The small paper sign isn't the best thing.
Then, to go to Penn Station to get home, I knew the E and F weren't running so I decided to take the M79 to the west side and take a train from there instead of the 6 to GC, Shuttle, and then the 1, 2, or 3. 1026 was the bus to the west side. A train came shortly after I got there. It was R62A 2205, signed for the 3. It seemed a GO had all trains running local in both directions between 96th and 42nd, a GO which is never announced. We switched to the express track after Times Square. At TS, we actually got a line up for the local at first, but the tower changed it. Only between 42nd and 34th did the C/R tell people the train would be express to 14th, meaning they didn't have a cross platform transfer.
The Acela Express home was uneventful. We were 5 minutes early in to Washington with Trainset 16 (2013-2012). Too bad the same couldn't be said about the trip up. In fact, I just looked, and the trainset up was number 19, the newest one, which was accepted on November 8 (hint hint).
I remember last week that a fellow subtalker was wondering about Seattle Sounder trains used by VRE. The official VRE webpage has more info about short term usage of these coaches:
http://www.vre.org/about/sounder.htm
The VRE website is really commuter friendly.Nice train pics plus charts showing the makeup of there trains and the welcome it gave to its new BI-Level trains. Everyone should check it out
About 2:05Pm today I was exiting the 34th St station by Macys when some policemen were running down the stairs. There was a fire truck on 6th, NYPD Rescue unit and a NYFD Batalion Chiefs trucks and a NYPD van.
More police were running down the subway stairway with holiday shoppers watching and some taking pictures and videos. Sirens were in the air and unmarked cars were showing up too.
Traffic was tied up in knots and I just got on an M34 to leave the scene. Does anyone know what was going on downstairs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Damn. I was there around 1:30 today. I walked from 34th and Broadway to 37th and 5th to buy some blank CD-RWs, and heard sirens when I exited Compusa. I have no idea. The station was calm while I was there. Maybe someone got a good look at my face and passed out. ;)
The first of the 'holiday jumpers'. Someone jumped in front of a northbound F entering 34/6. Power was removed from all 4 tracks from 14 St to 57/6, resulting in an hour long service disruption along 6th ave. Yours truly was stuck at B'way/Lafayette trying to get people to go some other way than the way they wanted.
I was on my way to work at 242-VC. I took the A up to 168. When we pulled into W4, we were the only 8Av service. On track 1: B train out of service, track 3: D train out of service, track 4: Us(A train), track 2: F train across the platform. It was definitely a weird situation. As we travlled up 8Av, there were more 6Av trains than 8Av. Things go more interesting alog CPW.
> Someone jumped in front of a northbound F entering 34/6.
Was the schmuck killed instantly?
- Lyle Goldman
I heard that they guy was besides himself.
Ok, sorry bad joke. But it took a while before police and morgue got there. And they had to move the train so that they could get to the body. And police had to be sure it was a suicide and not a murder.
So I went to out on a ride today down to brooklyn to see if there was anything interesting to photography along the lines. Just outside coney island the only folks on the F train i was on were a couple that needed to find a room, and a homeless guy with his jacket pulled over his head, and his feet in a garbage bag. Nothing tooo unusal, so i didn't think much of it. I'd have taken a shot of him if it wasn't for the fondle-couple...
I didn't see much worth photographing down around coney island, so i quickly got on another train and headed back up into manhattan (the W). As the W leaves, so does the f on the next track, with the bum still presumably sleeping. When i got to where i was going - 34th hearld sq, there were firemen and EMS guys going down to the F platform. naturally i pulled out my camera and followed. At the end of the platform, there was the f train i was on before, with just 3 cars pulled into the station, and all riders taken out of the train. Someone who musta thought i was a reporter said 'they already took the body outside" as i walked by... the body? I walk up the steps to the street, where there's a crowd of cops, ems, firemen, and some guy on a stretcher. An ambulance pulls up quick, so i don't get a good look - but he's got the same colored coat on as the presumably sleeping bum i had rode that very same train with barely an hour ago. Plus there don't seem to be any crying, scared friends or family around of this person, suggesting they were riding alone...
As the ambulance sped off, i could only wonder if this was one and the same person, and if they were indeed deader than a doorknob. Judging from the fact that there were 5 or 6 fire engines (+ rescue 1), police (and some ESU guys), one can only presume this was no ordinary 'sick passenger' - especially considering how they stopped all 6th av trains around the station.
Assuming it was one and the same bum, one can only wonder how long his corpse had been riding from queens, to manhattan, to brooklyn and back without anyone noticing?
Just another day under NYC...
ONCE AGAIN! You followed almost the same route I did today. I took the W back from Coney around 12:30PM. Weird.
huh. go figure. I think i went through CI at roughly 1, 1:15...
Go read here.
ahhhh.... i bet the bum is still in the back of the train in that case! =)
So you wanna hear your trainset undercar inspection might find....spray, wipe, spray, wipe, inspect, spray, wipe, was dis, spray, wipe, no leak, spray, wipe, inspect, a chunk, a chunk, was dis, a chunk, a bone. Peter
As noted in another thread, there was a jumper at 34th and Sixth.
I wouldn't imagine that an "ordinary" stiff found on a train would merit quite that much attention.
Would an 'extraordinary stiff'offer a higher quality of content or attention? Peter
Would an 'extraordinary stiff' offer a higher quality of content or attention?
Don't know, and I'm not about to play dead just to find out... oh wait, I'm extraordinarily stiff, not an extraordinary stiff... never mind :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will stick to leaking gear oil and journal bearing grease. My faith teaches me to not discover 'extraordinary materiels.' Peter
How long does it take to find out that there is a cadaver on a subway train? Lately it seems as though judging by the posts that there has been a fair number of cadavers riding the subways. Since there have been so many cadavers riding the subways they should have a "hearse special" on the subways. They should take an old car and set it up so that any deceased person can have a free ride on the subways provided that they're in a casket and they will be taken to at no charge to the station that is nearest Woodlawn Cemetery.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm choking...you never caught the postings of C/Rs or T/Os here about the homeless runs. Better them than me...I would only find the 'dog food' bits n chunks n bones during inspection. Peter
I hope that you're kidding me that you're mentioning in your post that the homeless people who are riding the trains actually eat pet food. I'm sure that you're not kidding but, the idea that people would eat pet food is rather interesting in a way.
#3 West End Jeff
No I am not talking about eating pet food from the can. Rather it is the remains of lost souls caught undercar that the feral dogs may feast upon. The worst is that one of my guys pointed out the accident to me and that I could have found s o m e t h i n g during inspection. Peter
At least the feral dogs help to keep the subway tunnels clean of the deceased.
#3 West End Jeff
This is really phucking sad if true ... no offense to foamers, but dying on the subway without a future claim for your descendents ... well ... just plain sucks. It's a genuine pity that those who are without a warm spot to squat can't be given a bit of leeway. In the shelters, there are required rules that some just ain't able to muster. Since they can't DO the rules, they're forced out, left to die. Somehow, somewhere there has to be a place somewhere that will let them come in drunk after pandhandling all day and have SOMEWHERE to cop a meal and a nap. Gotta be a way somehow, even for those who come "home" drunk ...
You'd have to put them in solitary confinement, for their own (and for others') protection. Jails don't even have that level of security.
it is an sad state of affairs here in so called the land of the free. nowhere to go if you are homeless.??
maybe die on a transit car on your way out ??
(terrible)
Little is known by the public of those whose task it is to see out the homeless and the ill. TA is making great efforts in this area...there are posters in the subways up now to tell the public that if one is ill there is help. The subway is a terrible place to pass on alone. Peter
a real "corpse" ....>>> the r-142....lol!!!
Terry kennedy has previously discussed lenghtening PATH platforms on the Lower Manhattan Line.
How about the Pavonia/Hoboken/33rd. can any of these be lengthened and to what length-- 8 or 10 cars
Hoboken cannot be lengthened. Head any further east and you're in the Hudson. Immediately west of the station is the massive interlocking.
Pavonia could be lengthened I suppose, but only in the direction towards Grove/Exchange. I'm not sure how close the switch is.
Most of the ones on the 6th ave could be. Cutting into the tube could be tricky. And I think that any work would have to shut down the BDFV.
It is pretty close to impossible, I think. First, Hoboken is landmarked. If you rip up the switches coming into the station you might be able to get some more length there (it's actually a relatively straightforward 2-into-3 interlocking if you discount the abandoned elevator). But I don't know what is above the station at that point.
Pavonia/Newport might be doable. Probably to the south, though there are equipment rooms on both platforms (radio repeater on the unused platform, and I'm not sure what is in the one on the main platform - it may just be another hangout room for the cleaners).
Christopher possibly on the north end.
9th could be extended to the south where there was a one-way crossover a long time ago. You can't extend to the north as the tunnel curves to head up 6th Ave. there. Both Christopher and 9th have the problem that they are openings in the segmented rings of the tunnel, so there are above-average structural issues.
14th and 23rd get pretty narrow at both ends, and there is something directly on the other side of that narrow wall at 23rd (if you look through the hole in the wall, you can see light). I don't know if it is a storeroom or what.
33rd will also be a problem. You can't extend to the north as the 6th Ave. line is rising up under you, and to the south you have another 2-to-3 interlocking.
14th and 23rd were already lengthened in the past - you can see where the construction changes from the old-style round columns to a more open layout. Christopher and 9th werent' actually "lengthened" as much as "train stops in the tunnel" - a good example is to be in the head car heading toward NJ at 9th St.
All of these stations could benefit from additional entrances and exits, with the possible exception of 33rd. Christopher and 9th should be do-able, assuming the cooperation of the property-holders over the station. I don't see how anything can be done with 14th and 23rd without the assistance of the TA. Grove and Pavonia/Newport could use additional entrances/exits as well.
As I stated in another Post, I plan to be in Stay in Corona next weekend. From all the posts over the past months People stated that Main St is a large Asian Area. Since my wife and her family are Filipina, and love Chineese food. Instead of goingb to Canal Street on Sunday and try to find a place to park. I am asking are there many Asian Grocers, Fresh Fish Places etc. in Flusihing? Thank you
Yes, yes, and yes. Lots of fruit markets, very crowded (bigger than Chinatown), quite a few resteruants, Chinese music stores, book stores,etc. Quite a few fish places too. One word of caution, watch out for the dragon clips they are quite large.
You'd be better off in Flushing, because Chinatown still has the "smell".
I do like that italian ice place right near the Q 26
bus stop ( my favorite is the lemon ice )
woooooooo.....!!
right on main street !! .....lol...!!
QTRAIN Thanks it will be easier there then in Chinatown. Are the places open Sundays?
Are the places open Sundays?
Yes. Most of the markets close around 8 PM. Most of the restaurants are open until around midnight.
Thanks Guys. I gather parking will be no problem, even at a meter
Parking is always a problem in downtown Flushing. So is driving there. There are some off-street metered parking lots. The major one is between 37th and 39th Aves 1 block east of Main St. There are two smaller ones just west of Main St on 39th Ave and 41st Ave. Bring plenty of quarters.
Also bring a shopping cart, if you plan to do a lot of shopping. Put your stuff in the cart and offload it to your car from time to time.
THANKS, WE WILL BE COMING FROM 108 AND ROOSEVELT
You cannot make a left hand turn at Main & Roosevelt. I've seen cops give tickets for it. The police have set up a barricade around the 109th precinct on Union St the last time I looked (about a month ago) so going past Main St and turning left is not practical either. My suggestion is to make a left on College Pt Blvd (1st light after #7 goes underground) and then the first right.
And if they choose NOT to have Chinese food, they can have McDonald's, Burger King or KFC. Maybe they can eat in at Blue Star. Or take the Q44 or the Q20 down Main and try a Kosher Pizza.
Try a pizza. Fast food sucks. Kosher pizza and regular pizza taste the same. CHiness food would suit them best.
We are not going to Main St to eat, they are going grocery shopping
Flushing is better for grocery shopping. Recommended markets are all along the west side of Main street south from the LIRR tracks down to Sanford. Also try the Hong Kong supermarket (for a bit less chaotic and more modern atmopshere) up Main street on the east side a few blocks north of Roosevelt Avenue.
In Chinatown most of the markets are smaller than in Flushing, plus there's always "the smell".
I gather you are not Asian, or related to Asians. If you want a real bad smell, have a Filipina Fry their dry fish for you. I leave the house when my wife does this. I smelled fresher dead bodies then that stuff. Yuk
Cmmon we all know what "the smell" is and it's not asian. :-(
Well Wendy's is halfway decent, but apparently they have decided Flushing isn't "good" enough for them. Well it's THEIR loss!
HELLO, you don't remember what happened to their old Flushing site?
Kosher pizza and regular pizza taste the same.
I find that hard to believe. Granted, I don't have much experience in the matter (I detest pizza, and if I were to eat it I'd only eat the kosher variety in any case), but kosher pizza is meatless. One of the primary rules of kashrut is that dairy products and meat products are not cooked or eaten together.
You are assuming that the 'cheese' used on the pizza is truly a dairy product. It's been well documented that virtually all pizza sold in this city is made with 'cheese' that ain't cheese. So a slice with kosher meatballs would work.....
That's scary. I do know that nearly all kosher pizza is made with real cheese. (It may not be good cheese but it's cheese.) But fake cheese with meat -- or fake meat with cheese -- is always an option. I don't eat the stuff anyway so I'll shut up now.
I do like that italian ice place right near the Q 26
bus stop ( my favorite is the lemon ice )
woooooooo.....!!
right on main street !! .....lol...!!
You also forgot about Tofu cheese.
Cremora cheese is not cheese but isn't it a dairy by-product?
You are assuming that the 'cheese' used on the pizza is truly a dairy product. It's been well documented that virtually all pizza sold in this city is made with 'cheese' that ain't cheese. So a slice with kosher meatballs would work.....
Fake cheese products in supermarkets always have giveaway clues in their names. Most likely these are FDA requirements. You'll see things like "cheese food," "cheese product," or "American (not American cheese) singles."
That reminds me of Krusty brand gum-like product.
"We knew about the spider eggs, but the Hantavirus..."
Yes, these subtle distinction I've known of for years, but don't "cheese product" and "cheese food" still contain SOME dairy?
Yes, they do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you guys want to talk about cheese, start a new topic, I am asking for information about Main St not Pizza
I didn't know that....so what IS the "cheese"? Soem sort of extruded bread product? Tenderized chewing gum of some kind?
Even the neighborhood joints use fake stuff?
Mr. Greenberger:
It's true. Kosher and non-kosher (meatless) pizza taste identical. Of course, one maker's skill may vary from the next, but that's it. Of course, since you don't like it, it's academic anyway :)
dont pass up that italian ice cream place right on main street !!!
wooooooooo
I m talking about Asian Grocers, not fast foods.
Brighton Bob, you name the asian specialty, it's in Flushing, right near the #7 terminus!!
Food,clothing, resturants, banks, video stores, whatever you or your family could want.
Thanks, A good Asian Market, preferably Filipino, but Chineese would do, fresh fish, a butcher, and me a gas mask
An end to this pipedream. NYC TA needs good working MTBF cars and trainsets, period. Saving money and energy, just like your cars ('use energy saving 5W-30 oil',) will depend on the 'driver.' TA has been pushed too fast into this new tech and it's gonna hurt. A basic car, an updated Redbird platform, is what is really needed for IRT. Mebbe AC motors excited by IGBT...no more group boxes. A simple MCC...no more LCU. Basic subway braking systems...no regenerative braking or Rail Gap Units. Mebbe this was the concept of the R110s???
Someone dangled the 'new tech' carrot under the noses of daydreamers and what did we get??
Now on to the R300s....cold fusion powered single unit cars that ride existing steel rails on MagLev propulsed by combo mag/air turbo and release excess energy through the third rail occassionaly to charge up the ConEd grid.
R400s next.....'Beam me up Scotty this planet s....' Peter
The R44 and R46 were also a supposed high tech train, remember the original 2nd Avenue subway?
Or, ATC which was supposed to have built into these units?
THAT was before my TA time...even though I was born before the Redbirds. ATC and CBTC would/can/never will be implemented until the signal system is updated. The SubTalker 'historians' are far more knowledgable on these things...and I had been impressed by R68 tech...until I had my hands into the motor control brains of these trainsets...the group box. Peter
It will be part of the core featureset in the next generation of the Subtalk2002 operating system which will be available really really soon now. ATC will be available as a service pack shortly thereafter. Check local availability, void where prohibited by law.
TA has been pushed too fast into this new tech and it's gonna hurt.
Too FAST?? The TA is 100 years (in some cases, literally) behind every other subway in the world when it comes to technology. Isn't the signal system pretty much the same from the beginning of the 20th century? When I read about something "cutting edge" in the NYC subway, that something probably has been in other subways for years. The London Underground maganged to be modern, dispite being 40 years older than NYC's subway. Chicago's L has cab signaling which works well. The R142 is finally a start to keep up with the rest of the world.
It is hurting because the new trainsets delivered cannot run on revenue lines without extensive modifications and they remain out of service. Even many of the running trainsets remain out of service and TA has to seek alternatives. The signal system dates back one hundred years (except where DC circuits are now AC.) The most important thing: the trainset you ride on gets you there on time.
"Let MTA GET YOU THERE." 'Car Inspectors assure your safety.' Peter
Any news on the start of the 30-day?
I know it was pushed back for some reason...anyone with insight?
Where are the MUs now, ENY or still on the IND?
Thanks
Subtalker "KHI" reported that the R143s had been cancelled due to Kawasaki having financial problems. However, none of this is confirmed, so I am wondering what the heck is going on myself! -Nick
They've already taken delivery of some R-143s.
#3 West End Jeff
With 8 more nearing completion at the plant! The reason the R-143s 30-day test is getting put off is because the R-143 hasn't passed its MI testing yet.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
What exactly is "MI" testing?
And when did you change your handle?
- Lyle Goldman
You know, someone explained to me what the MI test was and now it's like a total blank. Hopefully it'll come back to mind or someone can back me up on it.
I changed my handle right after Thanksgiving!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
No, "KHI" didn't say that. "KHI" said that the contract WOULD BE canceled due to Kawasaki's (and Japan's) financial problems along with New York's (and MTA's) financial problems. However, unless "KHI" is a ranking official of the Japanese government, Kawasaki, New York City, or MTA, it's sheer speculation on "KHI"'s part.
David
Howdy all. Does anyone know where I can download some subway sounds? I'm looking for drive-by sounds, and the typical horns, arcing, etc.
Thanks!
A new vidio clip is being shown over here (Canberra, Australia) featuring Eminem and D 12. I can't remember the name of the song, but the clip seem to take its themes at least partly from the 1979 film The Warriors and includes shots in a subway station, on an R 62 (I think) train and under an elevated structure.
Do any subtalkers know where these scenes were shot? I apologise if this has been canvassed before, but I have been off line, for various reasons, for some little time
Thanks in anticipation
A name would really be helpful. The only song I can think of with D12 and Eminem would be Purple Pills (or Purple Hills if it's the censored version), and I don't remember the video having any subway in it.
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful
I'm pretty sure you're talking about "Fight Music."
Someone said they saw it being filmed in Times Square near the shuttle, but I wasn't really a part of that thread.
Thanks
"Fight Music" sounds right to me and it certainly looks like it could be the 42nd St Shuttle.
Maybe I should be posting this on BusTalk, but...
When I was leaving work today, I saw someone filming one of the new SEPTA low-floor buses for a short period. It was shortly after 3pm at the intersection of 69th St and Marshall Rd. The person was filming a 113 bus.
Who was that in my woods?:)
Not I.
Many of you remember in August that I posted a message about having been born with a concealed cleft palate and the discomfort that I have from it. I have some good news to tell everyone about how I'm managing with it. I bought a hood that resembles those used by the pilots of open cockpit airplanes and I wear it at night when I sleep. Since this hood covers my cheeks as well as my head it keeps my mouth warm as well as my palate. The result is that I'm in much less discomfort and I'm a lot happier. I also wear the hood on colder days and it has been a help to me even on those kinds of days. Though a shot of cold air into my mouth might bother my palate a little the discomfort now passes quickly with little incident. Many people who know me and have seen me in the hood think that I look great wearing it. A few people have described me as looking like a monk in the hood. I was even wearing it on Wednesday November 21st when I was at Ground Zero and no one made any comments about it. Even with the hood I'm just another New Yorker. Lastly I even wore it while I was on the subway and no one blinked an eye.
I'm planning to go into New York again in the next few weeks an try to ride the R-142s on the #2 line. If any one of you sees me wearing a black hood, glasses and a dark beard, good tempered and looking a little like a monk, it is me #3 West End Jeff.
#3 West End Jeff
You're welcome at 239th Street Yards bin Loden. Just whip out your TA pass, open up your bags and bare your butt for security. 239 is my home, MF for the 2 line. If you had an uncomfortable ride, post your complaint. I'll do my best to see that mechanical defects are corrected. Peter
I'm sorry to say that I don't look like Osama Ben Laden even though I'm wearing the hood and I'm sure that you're just joking. I'm just a harmless soul that has found an interesting way to take care of a physical condition that he has. However, I certainly would like to come to the 239th Street yard one day and take a look at some of the equipment under supervision by a T/A employee so I can get a "hands on" what everything is like. If I should show up with the hood don't worry, I'm perfectly harmless and good tempered.
#3 West End Jeff
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The weekend after this I read there will be a G.O. on the N/R line in lower Manhattan.
Brooklyn-bound trains rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge from Canal to Pacific Sts
Late night, 12:01 AM to 5 AM Tue to Fri
Weekend, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Nov 27 to Dec 3
Also Brooklyn bound N runs on the W (to C.I?) and express in the Brooklyn direction on the weekend. One question though, once the N gets to Stillwell, does it run from Stillwell in service? It would be foolish not to let pax board at C.I. to 86th!
R trains over the bridge? If only they could have these sort of G.O.s during the week, then I might get to school early for a change.
The January 2002 issue of Railfan & Railroad has an interesting article on the NY&A's Bay Ridge Branch, including photos of R142s being delivered. The article's not as in-depth as it could have been, but the photos are good, and include some historical shots as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This might be a dumb question, but having not seen this particular magazine, where could I pick up a copy in NYC? A chain of newsstands (Hudson News) or Barnes and Noble?
This might be a dumb question, but having not seen this particular magazine, where could I pick up a copy in NYC? A chain of newsstands (Hudson News) or Barnes and Noble?
Newsstand in concourse level of the Pan Am Building. Enter via G.C.T.
(I *refuse* to call it the "Met Life" building since I live near the actual Met Life complex on P.A.S. from 23rd to 25th, now mostly occupied by investment bankers).
Enter via GCT, so I get off the Shuttle, and I find my way towards the Pan Am Building and go to the newsstand in the concourse of that...Can't I just go enter the Pan Am building from the street? Seems a lot easier...
As a Ex Pan Employee(via National Airlines) I will forever call it the Pan Am Bldg. and the RCA Bldg not the GE bldg, and Candlestick is still candlestick, and the B A in Anaheim. Never mind these corporate sponsorship, who do not pay ANY Income tax, or will not after GW signs the bill to repeal the old law
and it is still idlewild [spelling?] and 6th avenue.
Only in New Amsterdam! LOL
IDEWYLD AND JFK are on the same grounds, but none of the present structures at JFK were in use before 63, so it is a completeyly different QAirport, or you could call LaGuardia. NY Municipal Airport
When you're done with the Pan Am Building, walk through the Grand Central Building and up 4th Avenue to 63rd Street, then over to Lexington and take the Subway to Blackwell's Island. Or you can stay on the train for the last stop at Van Alst and Wilbur Avenues in Long Island City.
Actually, when Ed Koch was mayor, he renamed Avenue of the Americas to carry both names- the signs at every corner (from White Street toCentral Park South) tell us as much.
So, it is fact, very proper, sicne about 1988, to call the avenue btween 5th and 7th "Sixth Avenue".
So, it is fact, very proper, sicne about 1988, to call the avenue btween 5th and 7th "Sixth Avenue".
Not only is it proper since 1988. It's been the reality forever. Outside of formal addresses, governmental pronoucements, and media announcements, I've never heard an actual human refer to 6th Avenue as The Avenue of the Americas.
Also reminds me of NYCTA attempts to bury divisional distinctions. I guess people like calling things by the names they've alwasy had.
Reminds me of that Lincoln quote: "How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg?
Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it so."
", I've never heard an actual human refer to 6th Avenue as The Avenue of the Americas"
I remember there were some side signs on the old R-9s that said.......KK Avenue of the Americas local. Even though it was abbreviated, it was still overblown to me. Avenue of the Americas sounds U.N. inspired.
Bill "Newkirk"
but IIRC La Guardia named it before the UN was founded (Mind you, I never call in by that name.) I do call it JFK, but I still think of the 'Congress' Expwy in Chgo--not the Eisenhower. And here locally East 14th is now "International Boulevard" (large guffaw)
and Delancy Street was once Schiff Pkwy andf changed back to Delancy St
Yes, but only from Clinton Street to the Bowery.
the next street over from clinton is attorney. as a cop giving directions to someone i know heading to a party there said: "figures -- where there's a clinton there's always an attorney'.
parkside lounge here i come.
Clinton is also the only street in that area to maintain its name south of Division Street (at least hypothetical Division).
But that was the main part of the Street
Interborough is always Interborough and not JRP, at least to most people I know
The only people who called Ave of the Americas were out of towners because of the signs. How about all the Avenues in Harlem No of 110th, beside Lenox Ave, do they call 5, 7, 8 by their new names or old?
5 is called Fifth Avenue
7 is called Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard (I think they did it just to show that Avenue of the Americas is not so bad).
8 is called Frederick Douglass Boulevard
9 is called Morningside Drive, Morningside Avenue or Convent Avenue
10 is called Amsterdam Avenue
11 is called Broadway or St. Nicholas Avenue
4 is called Park Avenue
A is called Pleasant Avenue
11 is St Nicholas
correction 10 is St Nicholas.
Actually, Amsterdam/10 Avenue is one long continuous street from 14th Street untill 193/Fort George Hill and it is just about a straight line.
Same with 9th-St Nicholas, but it does twist and turn, but 10-Amsterdam is straight What street in NYC has the most curves. I think Kings Highway
And Lenox is Malcolm X Blvd
My impression is that Lenox, 7th, and 8th are commonly called by their old names (i.e., the ones I list here). Is that not the case?
(In contrast, the other names are used exclusively. Amsterdam Avenue is never called 10th Avenue, etc.)
I don't know what's commonly used, but IIRC, the signs only refer to the new names, Lenox possibly excepted. I only added 6th/Lenox/Malcom X to complete Pig's list.
Of course, the east-west "Boulevards" are almost exclusively referred to by their street number (and signs carry both name and number).
in DC the Republicans call it Regan National Airport, and everyone else just calls it National Airport.
Well Hi Bob, a 15 year man here. Worked the whole time at JFK in mostly white collar jobs. Was in Hangar 14, 16, 17, 19 & JEOB. Still in the transportation industry with just 12 years out of the field.
Mr rt__:^)
Did you work for Pan Am the whole time > I started with national, and of course came over with the merger. "IM BOB FLY ME" still have that old T shirt after 30 years.
Barnes and Noble or Borders usually carry it, and so do most train HobbyB Shops
I did not get mine yet
Mail's slow... I got mine Wednesday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I got my copy. Good article. But it raised more questions for me. Does anyone know whether the East New York Tunnel mentioned in the article pass underneath ,the LIRR, Atlantic Ave, Fulton ST., Bushwich Ave? I have know idea where this tunnel is? Thanks in advance.
I think the answer to all four streets is yes. See oldnyc.com's virtual tour of the line.
Sounds correct, they only use one of the four portals. Been through it twice on NY & Atl fan trips. Even was able to walk up to it from the South before they added new fencing with the BMTman.
Mr rt__:^)
Matter of fact I was there the other week, according to my good friend "THE JOE" there is a daily (or weekly?) NY & A RR train that uses it to go from fresh Ponds to connect with CHRR
Bah, go figure, I think I went to the proper place. I went up the escalator from GCT to the Metlife/Panam building and walked my way to the newsstand, they only had December 2001.
I have yet to see the issue, but received a phone call today from Ben Schaefer -- a long-time New York Shortline RR enthusiast -- who told me that one of his pics of Fresh Pon Junction from the 70's was used in the piece (I believe he was given photo credit). Schaefer (who's an NYCT conductor on B-Division) contributed some pics to Jay Bendersky's noted book, 'Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways'.
By coincidence, a small group of SubTalkers/BERA members visited NY&A on Friday. Since the RR was still in 'holiday mode' there wasn't much to see in the way of operating equipment, but idling diesels were the norm.
(The trip also included a stop at Bob Diamond's facilities and the NYCH yard. There wasn't much activity at either location, although one of Diamond's PCCs was receiving some new 'skin' when we arrived).
BMTman
I thought Bob D was considering throwing in the towel regarding his Brooklyn trolley museum because of a tugboat destroying part of his pier. Is this no longer the case?
--Mark
I thought Bob D was considering throwing in the towel regarding his Brooklyn trolley museum because of a tugboat destroying part of his pier. Is this no longer the case?
The problem was solved. There was a thread about it some time ago.
[The problem was solved. There was a thread about it some time ago.]
Well not realy, or maybe more corretly, not YET.
He can no longer get the two finished cars out of the barn because of the condition of the pier. It's washing out, i.e. the plating is gone from in front of it.
There are 3 cars outside the barn, two bagged & one that they are working on. That one was a shell, so they seem to be doing a total restore ... GOOD FOR HIM !
They are also working on extending the track ... I think they just got some money from nycDOT. It appears that they'll make a loop first, then extend the line. A loop around the block would give him the ability to offer rides to the public.
Accept for the pier problem things appear to be looking good for the re-introduction of PCC to Brooklyn ... Bob you have all my best wishes.
Mr rt__:^)
Mouse my friend, thanks for the alert. Have one more reason to visit my local hobby store. Isn't this site great ?
Mr rt__:^)
There just was an extended news segment on MSNBC on the WTC station. Don't know if it'll be repeated. It was just over at 2:30
> MSNBC
> Don't know if it'll be repeated
Who are you kidding? :-)
I actually don't know what their possible repeat schedule is. Recent events in my household have narrowed my TV viewing quite a bit so I'm not that up on what goes on.
What did they say?
- Lyle Goldman
They just showed clips of the destroyed station and compared it with clips of the station before the attack. Don't remember what was said, I was watching it with my twin 2 year old boys. It's hard to focus on anything other than my kids -- Thank God.
I recently rode the W line between Manhattan and Brooklyn and N line in Brooklyn. They seem to go slower now than I remember years ago (when the BMT was the BMT). The speed of the W between 14th St. & Canal St. was abysmal - especially how slow it went as it went tourds the curve north of 8th St. and passed Prince St., through the turn into Canal St. Also, in Brooklyn, all along the track from where it becomes a subway after the Manhattan Bridge, along the DeKalb by-pass track into Pacific St. Low speeds also from 9th Ave. along the curves to Ft. Hamilton Pkwy, and along the 18th Ave. curves. The N was slow from 59th St. to 8th Ave., and on the curve from FHP to New Utrecht Ave.
I didn't remember it that way when they were the WE and SB Expresses running up Broadway. And they certainly run slower than the Lex IRT does now, even with the IRT curves from Union Sq. south (ever watch the trains pick up speed as they leave Union Square? Wow! Also as they whip around the curves at, e.g., Astor Place.
What gives?
Are the IND/BMT wider body/longer cars more likely to derail around curves than narrower/shorter IRT cars around similar curves? Is there more tilt on the IRT tracks around curves?
Mike Rothenberg
The R68's are glorified R16's.
The NYCTA is not here to get you there fast. They're only here to get to there safely.
Many would argue that it used to be able to do both very efficiently. The question is why can't they do it anymore?
A good question: why can't they do it anymore?
I don't remember crashes back then. But were train operators back then, on average, more reliable and more serious about their jobs than now? (No offence, but what do current operators think about their colleagues - and themselves? How would they account for the differences then and now?)
Mike Rothenberg
From what I can tell, T/O's of today are just as serious, if not more serious than before.
The TA is very strict from what I hear, and people live in fear of losing their job.
I remember reading an article in the LA Times on June 20, 1955 about a big collision of two #4 Sea Beach trains at Stillwell Avenue. The story quickly caught my eye because I was still very new to California and still identified myself with New York. I'm not sure why there are so many complaints about slowness today, but I think the constant shifting of routes and express and local designations that it has thrown the whole BMT system into convulsions. Also I get the feeling the TA is not much of a BMT fan and favors the IRT, but that could just be my personal bias. I do know that back inthe 50's there were routes that you could count on year in and year out and not subject to change yearly.
Derailments from recent years have slowed trains a bit. Add to this wheel detectors and timed signals.
Years ago it was called "rapid transit". They dropped the "rapid" in exchange for safety reasons.
Bill "Newkirk"
The slowdown at Canal is because the tracks are sinking. 5 MPH limit there. The rest of it is timers and the B Division IMO is just slower than the A division for some obscure reason.
Ever since the B train derailment of about a year ago just outside of DeKalb the running has been slowed between there and Pacific Street.
Also, keep in mind that some sections of track may be in poor shape, so there might be speed restrictions at certain points that never had them before.
BMTman
A friend has asked me to fix a MTH E Train trailer car whose interior lighting flickers as the car runs along the track.
The first thing I looked for was dirty pickup rollers, dirty wheels, or a loose wire. Everything seems fine, and I cannot recreate the problem with test leads.
Do any of you modelers have any ideas for me?
Dirty tracks, Karl. He can eithre add weight to the car or clean the rails.
After seeing the great improvement in the interior lighting on the R-21s, I've decided that the R-42 lighting is all wrong. I've decided to opt for a constant brightness lighting system. The circuit is done. I'm just trying to install one where it will be least visible. it'll cure the flicker problem too. I'll send you the circuit diagram if interested.
Wouldn't dirty track affect the other subway trailers as well? Only the last car's lights flickered according to what he told me. I'll tell him to clean his track anyway.
After writing my first post this afternoon I put the car on my layout, and had no flickering at all. I pulled it around with my 6250 Seaboard.
That was a strange looking train with a diesel switcher pulling a single R-42 subway car. I guess it could be considered a really weird commuter train. At least I got to operate a subway model on my layout again.
If you think about it, the cars in the middle have forces acting on them that the last car does not have. If you want to prove it, just put weight on top of the car to prove it.
Currently, I'm installing the new control panel on my layout. The pike has been down for 2 weeks as I make the all the block connections and istall the block switches. Tonight I ran a train for the first time in a week and every signal relay chattered like those old mechanical teeth we used to use as a gag. Same thing, dirty signal rail.
I have been notified by the set's owner that dirty track was the culprit, and that 4905's lights stay on just fine now.
4904/4905 are numbers that belong in the 4 car set aren't they? Those were the two numbers in the add-on set that I saw offerred for sale. Somebody must have screwed up in boxing & selling off their E Train.
Does anyone know what the correct two numbers are for the MTH E Train add-on?
Karl, I believe the correct #s are 4698 & 99. According to Wayne (IIRC) those numbers are no longer on the NYCT roster. BTW: glad the track cleaning worked.
For those who might be interested, there are currently 2 sets of R-21s for sale on ebay. One set closes on 12/3 and the other on 12/6. Both have Protosound so youcan expect to pay the MSRP ($300) or above. Just enter "MTH Subway" in the search box.
Steve, I'm pretty sure that 4698/4699 were part of the D Train.
Did they use the same numbers on the E Train and just omit the blue stripe?
Since I had worked on my friend's D Train and thought I would be buying it from him eventually, I wrote the numbers down. What I have in my notes are 4550/4551,4698/4699 & 4714/4715. I'm pretty sure that 4714 was the power car.
I worked on a 4 car E Train once for another friend, but have no idea what any of the numbers were except 4905/4904. I guess that it would be real easy for two trailers from the original set to wind up in a 2 car add-on box.
Karl, you are absolutely correct. I looked in the wrong box last night.
Try using a G.E. 44 ton diesel, but give them both yellow paint jobs!
Maybe and a flat car or a short hopper?
Or better yet, if you order the R/17 set. separate the set into two two car sets. The first , with the power car, paint yellow and black for a money train. The remaining cars, also painted yellar, combined with yellow trimmed hopper and flat cars. These can be drawn by 44 tonnners or some other smaller diesel done in MOW yellow and Black.
I predicked, the money train is nexted from MTH, after the R/17 silver and blue rendition.
avid
According to my friend Mike B., he met Mike Wolfe (The Mike in MTH) at York, PA. last month. He said Mike seemed truly interested when shown a photo of the R-36 WF in the original paint scheme. We can only hope. Either the 36s or the R-9 (sans heypaul in the cab) would please me greatly.
The Q-CAR Company is coming out with a R4-9 car but look at the price.
Is that a price for ONE car? If so, HOLY smokes!
If it's a price for two cars, then it's still steep but not so unreasonable.
BMTman
If the workmanship is anything like Nate's personal R1/9 models, it'll be worth it.
Did you ever see the model Bluebird he offered?
--Mark
I'm very tempted, and I'm strictly into S gauge!
Help! I've fallen and can't reach my credit card.
avid
Eeeeyow! For that price, it BETTER have Heypaul in the cab. The REAL one. :)
Gangway, everybody!!!
I have Q-Car's R-17 model, and I can vouch for the quality and customer service that they give. It is first-rate!.
Marc
TD, for your info 'heypaul in the cab' will be offered as an option in 2003 with a hefty price tag, so I doubt if I'll go that route....;-D
Seriously, though, isn't it Nate Gersten and the Russians who're working on producing the R-9 cars?
BMTman
Even though I don't do O gauge, *I* would buy an R9 with Heypaul in the cab ... and if Heypaul ain't willing, maybe we can do up TOWERGUY in the cab ... gotta be SOME inducement to go out of N gauge. :)
Does it also come with a Salaam Allah figurine taking photos from the railfan window?
No, but I suppose we could use one of those LA LRV's as a nonmotorized trailer in a consist and put him in there ... LOL!!!lol!!!lol...
I'm using an MTH SW-1500 diesel, painted yellow, to pull my extra cars around.
Not authentic, but sort-of looks real.
I'm looking to convert my K-line S-2 switcher to a reasonably close facsimile of a NYCT GE loco.
TD, the MTH rumor mill has it that Wolf & Co. are considering a MOW train set. It would be four-car set including GE 50-ton loco, flat car, Mantis crane (w/supposedly working boom), and R-17 or 22 in yellow as the Rider car.
I haven't heard much more on this, but got it from a fairly reliable source earlier this year. Hopefully, this one will come to fruition.
BMTman
As the almighty THOR, once said "My Thunder has been Stolen!"
I like the look of the G.E.44 toner Myself.
BRTman, If this is so ,it shouldn't be to hard to pull off. All of the components are on the shelf. It's just a matter of Colourizing and decals.
avid
Exactly. Except for the GE 50 tonner -- which to my knowledge -- has never been mass produced before in O gauge (or any other gauge for that matter).
BMTman
I beleive MTH's Premiere Lines plans for the R/9 with heypaul and Saalma figures will only be avalable in Hawaii. There so Hot the containers must be removed to prevent onboard ship fires. Needles to say the Hawaiians are confused.
avid
lol
And, just to add fuel to the MTH fire, earlier this fall two guys from MTH, loaded with recording gear, spent 4 hours recording sounds of our Peter Witt, 6119. This would seem to indicate that either MTH is planning a Baltimore Witt or something Proto-Sound with gear / compressor noises in it.
Given MTH's track record, extreme lateness is the norm.
Expect to see that (and a lot of the other delayed stuff) sometime in the next century.
somebody said something about if you know how to operate a certain R# car, you qualify to operate other cars in its class. Anyone know these classes?
How did the JFK train go through brooklyn. Different ROW from IND A train, It passed through the express station and didn't stop?
Hope fully someone can give some information.
It took the same route as the A train but did not stop at the stations. So if the A train was delayed the jfk train was also delayed.
So you wasted your money if you took it because it travels at the same speed (what if it gets stuck behind a A trin which makes stops) as an A train. Waste 50 cents or some thing because you didn't want to walk downstairs at West 4th.
The JFK started at Howard Beach. It would run as a "super-express" to Jay St/Boro Hall. Continue on the A line. Make stops at Chambers, Run local from there to West 4th St (on the F local track) 34/6, 42/6, 47-50/6 and terminate at 57/6.
Well not exctly what I was looking for but it was already answered. I have a map from 1988 that shows the route. But thank you for your time anyways.
Oh, don't foget East New York. I believe that WAS a stop...after Howard Beach was ENY, THEN Jay St. I could be wrong about that..I was just told that it also stopped at Bway-ENY.
'til next time...
Cleanairbus
Not officially, at least. No scheduled stops between Jay Street and Howard Beach.
David
See Joe Korman's web site for the flyer about the JFK train.
Never stopped at East NY, and for the first couple years there was no A Express Service in Brooklyn to slow trains. When the A (or E) started Fulton Express, the JFK Train lost money, who would pay 3.50 when you can get there 2 minutes slower on the A
There was A express service on Fulton Street, but it ran rush hours only until 1988, so most JFKs wouldn't get stuck. of course, maybe they didn't run the JFK when the A ran express..?
The JFK and the A both ran express at the same time during the morning and afternoon rush hours.
dumb
That is what killed the JFK Train, slow trip, 4xs extra fare
I belive the JFK train was a part of the super-express trains that supposed to excist.
No Bway-ENY stop.
Nope Non-Stop From JFK(Howard Beach) to Jay Street
That is what I said. The train did not stop at ENY.
Correct
What about when the 63 street conection was open?
It wasn t running anymore
Actually it did - but briefly from the opening of the connection until April 1990. After 57th, the JFK Express stopped at Lex/63rd, skipped Roosevelt Island, and ended at 21st/Queensbridge.
Just before it stopped running. it went to QueensBridge. But it was definately on its way out.
It used the Fulton Street express track in Brooklyn. The only stop it made was at Jay Street. For the extra fare you got a clean train, NYCTA finest, and a uniform crew member who is not hiding in the cab.
And how exactly did they move between the R-46 cars when the doors are LOCKED. Hey when did they lock the doors on the R-46 and why did they do it?
Light passenger loads almost never required using more than 1 car out of a 4 car consist; moving between cars was unnecessary.
R-46 end doors have been locked since the cars first went into service in the '70's due to concerns about passenger safety when the train takes a curve.
And why have there been R-32, R-38, R-40, All IRTs, have doors which are safe and why since the R-1 it was safe to walk through and now you can't ever? ever heard of rapest? gangs? heck I could board a train with a gun and when thoses doors close its party time? I wonder where could a get a key for thoses doors hopefully legaly? Some sort of limitation of liability?
And why have there been R-32, R-38, R-40, All IRTs, have doors which are safe and why since the R-1 it was safe to walk through and now you can't ever? ever heard of rapest? gangs? heck I could board a train with a gun and when thoses doors close its party time? I wonder where could a get a key for thoses doors hopefully legaly? Some sort of limitation of liability?
Walking between cars presents unacceptable safety risks on the 75-foot cars. These risks aren't as significant on the shorter cars.
You are correct, however, in that locked end doors present their own safety issues.
Why 75 footer?
Too much of a gap between the cars?
Also there is switch outside the door which controls the door locks so obviosly they weren't factory installed and probulbly were installed on one of the general overhauls
does anyone when?
There are less spaces between cars. When a train arrives at a pefect curve, each of its hinges will take an equal amount of that curve. Fewer hinges, then each hinge will bend to a deeper angle.
so in effect they push you off your feet or squeeze you
What are you talking about?
forget it
During BMT days, you could not pass between cars, they said too sharp curves, or no platform between. Later cars after the R16 made it possible, but the BMT Rule continued, to the ConsolidaTION IN 67
The JFK trains were not open to the general riding public. Only 1 door was open at anytime for customers to board, Except for 57/6 and Howard Beach. There was usually a cop on the train all the time. So there was no real danger of riff-raff riding. If the train got more crowded, another car would be used. And the doors berween cats was unlocked so if anyone had to go to another car they could. And getting those keys are illegal. Employees can get them but aren't supposed to. They'd be in trouble when they get caught.
ebay/ my underground friends/someone posts an impression/ lock picking tools/ C4 /liquid dinamite/ or what/ wait I could hop between cars and turn off the locks with a switch/boy people would have a heart attack/ end of the statment These are only thoughts and not an intention to commit these acts.
Just like those warnings that go something like:
"For entertaiment purposes only"
Blah Blah Blah, to open the Storm door on a R-44 or R-46 pull up on the handle and push hard to open (much easier on an R-44) or take a flathead screw driver push the handle up and to the right to pop open. Bork On
Nope! The TA ran three car consists!
AVID
Aren't R-46 4-car sets except for the ones on G which are 4-car with 2-car
The R46 was not married into 4 car sets until after they were overhauled in the early 1990's.
The TA ran 3 car sets of R-46 in A-B-A configuration. The one time I rode the train there were 5 (!) crew members: 1 Motorman, 1 CR in the cab, and 3 CR's to collect the extra fare, one in each car. And yes, the doors between the cars were unlocked. The TA was advertising the train on TV with the slogan "Take the Train to the Plane". BTW, the trip took a little over an hour on the train, and at Howard Beach there was a transfer to a bus.
Once upon a time ........
The R/44s and the R/46s were a collection of single units made up of type "A" and type "B" cars. The type "A" cars have the cabs for the T/O or C/R. The type "B" cars have no cabs and are refered to as Trailers. The "B" cars do have power and because of the lack of cabs, they have additional seating.
So these singles could be combined in a wide range of sets.
The GOH eliminated most singles. There are those unique sets on the "G" you pointed out.
Hope this helps.
avid
What were the car assignments on the C train during late july 1991
R30, R32, R38 IIRC.
Was there any R44's ever on the C?
IIRC nope. I have never seen one on the C line. I used ride the A line frequenty when I lived near Lefferts and I haven't seen a C with an R44 Consist. Thats what I think, but I am pretty sure there hasn't been one on there.
The ONLY time you will see R44's on the C is if there is a massive inability of Pitkin and 207 to put out enough R32s and R38s needed for service.
I have ehard from some family members that they get confused with the diamond lines, and often miss their stop when they realize the train is going express. Since more numbers are available, and at least one is built into the roll signs already, why not add a new line?
For instance, replace the diamond 7 with the #11 train...this one is already on the rollsign. For the diamond 6, use the #8. Finally, for the diamond 5, use the #10.
Does my idea make sense, at least for the 7-11, since both of those are on the rollsigns already? -Nick
Remember the EE, GG, AA, etc. The diamond is the not-fully-implmented replacement for the single letter express trains. Double letters were local, single were express, then in 1975 I belive they were distroyed in addition to the R-40, it was the first train to have the color backround and the MTA's example of all single letter trains. The diamond was created to designate express trains (A,B,Q,W,F,E,J,M,) but so far it is only used to mostly designate one way expresses. Look on the map it says "special weekday and express service" so in the future it can be used for express trains if the MTA runs out of letters (divine intervention).
The diamonds originally were used to show Rush Hour Services
And still is... look at the M train to Bay Parkway, it's not express... but then again, those expresses these days...
But it qualifies as 'Special'
-Hank
I think that the double letters were used up until 1985 if I'm not mistaken.
#3 West End Jeff
This has been proposed and discussed on this Board many times. Several people have intimated that the MTA does plan to repalce the diamond 7 with the 11 eventually.
"Several people have intimated that the MTA does plan to repalce the diamond 7 with the 11 eventually"
This will become reality when the R-62As are transferred over to the #7 line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Source?
Yes, I've heard the rumor -- but only as a rumor. I'm quite skeptical. (I also don't see the point.)
"(I also don't see the point.)"
The point is that people won't hop on a diamond 7 thinking that the train is a local, only to find out that its an express when the train passes their stop. You may not think this is a problem, but it happens often in the "non-railfan" world; people don't always check to see what the symbols mean. -Nick
This is only an issue at Queensboro Plaza, and only if the C/R doesn't make clear announcements there. West of QBP, passengers should board the first train in any case (since occasionally there are changes at QBP); east of QBP, the track is a dead giveaway.
The primary source of confusion is incorrect train signage. I see no reason to believe that the signage will be any more correct if 11 takes the place of diamond-7. Personally, I ignore the signs since they're so often incorrect (or inconsistent among the 13 route signs visible to waiting passengers).
Remember that "11" won't mean "express" in any case, as there is no express service outbound in the morning or inbound in the evening. Or do you think crews will suddenly have time to crank 24 signs at each end of each run?
Your right, if they don't change sign now they won't in the future no matter what it says. If they aren't doing it now they won't be in the future.
I think having a seperate route designation for express ( 7,11 )works best when there is a four track line. When you only have a three track line, it causes confusion for "non-railfans" who don't think about or care if the express train can run in both directions at the same time. The "11" express would have to run local in non-peak directions, because you only have three tracks. I think that may confuse people. This may be why they just keep it <7> instead of calling it an 11 express.
Hey why don't you build a 4 track elevated?
But remember to start from the outside in so you don't wind up with a demolished line with no replacement (which will happen if you start from queensboro plaza and work your way out. you must start at main street and work your way in. You could use prison labor because it is better than them making wallets, because they are giving back to the community)
I have never seen a 4 track elevated in NYC or heard of one.
Why were only 3 tracks built?
Part of the four-track Brighton line is elevated.
The IND elevated section over the Gowanus Canal has four tracks.
The Manhattan Bridge has four tracks, but that's cheating.
There are four elevated tracks between West 8th Street and Stillwell Avenue, but they're on two levels and two lines.
Why are they uncommon? Because the elevated lines are all outside the central core, and outside the central core, travel patterns are predominantly inbound in the morning and outbound in the afternoon. A fourth track would be of limited value compared to the other three. Furthermore, some els are built on narrow streets; there is often no room for four tracks.
Which Els in Manhattan had it's express tracks added over the local tracks, as an afterthought. I believe I saw photos of it somewhere.
It looks like they tried to do this over the "island platform" section of the J Jamaica line. Evidence exists at the Alabama station. Was there tracks on that structure, or is that right where it ended from the beginning, as a provision?
planned, not installed I belive.
Hell---get rid of those damn letters and double letters and diamonds and squares or whatever the hell they're putting on the trains now. Give each line a number and de done with it. And while we are about it, it would be very easy to put express or local next to the number to eliminate confusion once and for all. Try this"
IRT------1-15
IND------20-30
BMT------35-50
There is enough separation between the numbers so no one would get confused and when they impliment this (which I'm not holding my breath for) give it enough time to make it work. I think it would.
Fred there have not been double letters for years, and you put the BMT Last. You mean the Sea Beach would be the 44 line just like Reggie Jackson, and half of the IND now runs on the BMT, or Visa Versa
This makes no sense whatsoever. Letters have been used for years, why change now for the sake of change?
Aw ... change for the hell of it has been a staple since the 60's ... viz the Vee and Dubya trains ... :)
Because Fred is a Conserative Republican who hates change. They call it being a Liberal
What do you have against us liberals?
Two reasons to go with all numbers is to have consistincy in the line names (how many people care that numbered lines are IRT and lettered are IND/BMT?), also there are a limited number of letters, using numbers, you could go on forever.
double number/digit, isn't that what you don't want!
No that is what I want.
You can t have you live in LA
What's wrong with his proposal? Do have something with Angelenos? Wanna start something here? LOL
I lived in Los Angeles from 1958 until 1994. Graduated High School and college there. So I can say what I want about the place
Where in L.A.? What high school?
If you don't mind me asking.
No Hollywood, LACC UCLA. Lived in Valley most of my life except for a period in West LA/Culver City. Last on Reseda Blvd(`14 years) until 1-17-94 nNorthridge
Got into North Hollywood Highly Gifted Magnet, but moved to NYC before I could attend. West LA all the way!
just the opposite of me moved from Brooklyn to No Hollywood in my Junior year of HS, actually thinking of moving back to Brooklyn next Spring. Both wife and I may have job offers. ikn the City
The Ninth Ave. el at Lincoln Square was a bi-level, and I think the line continued that way down to 53rd St., where the Sixth Ave. trains split off from the Ninth Ave. tracks.
if there is no room you could build a double leval elevated which is narrower.
But much more expensive.
now if cut 400,000 dollars per year of Peter S. Kalikow (chairman) salery
and 400,000 dollars from David S. Mack (vice-chairman), there will be enough money to rebuild the 7 line.
now if we count in 80 million in unnessacry things at maximim price at http://www.mta.info/mta/eye-nyct.htm (I looked through only half the list)
81 million with hafe from USDOT FTA
is 81+40=130
so 130 million dollars cool! no you can throw it away to bad contracters but you don't and you can rebuild from 75 ave (E,F,R,V,7) to main street 4 track double leval.
now if cut 400,000 dollars per year of Peter S. Kalikow (chairman) salery
and 400,000 dollars from David S. Mack (vice-chairman), there will be enough money to rebuild the 7 line.
Over how many years? Do you think Kalikow and Mack would be glad to pay for a second Flushing express track out of their own pockets? Do you think Kalikow and Mack should pay for a second Flushing express track out of their own pockets?
now if we count in 80 million in unnessacry things at maximim price at http://www.mta.info/mta/eye-nyct.htm (I looked through only half the list)
What on that list is unnecessary? By what criteria are they unnecessary? By what criteria are a second Flushing express track necessary?
Mostly in replacement for perfectly working things or things that they already have. For example
R80247-new balast tamper- for what?
C34710- new gap filler- aren't they already there!
R34146 PURCHASE WORK TRAINS FOUR SNOW-THROWER CARS $1M - $5M - they have cars that do that greedy bastar*s.
C33281 CONSTRUCT POLICE DISTRICT OFFICE #34SURF & STILLWELL AVENUES $10M - $50M- why so there more cops in the stations that ask you where are you going? why are you going? what is in that bag? sorry we will have to take you to the station for further questioning!, and see you as guilty until proven inocent, any pay for more burocracy.
C34565
CONSTRUCT PRINT SHOP & DISTRIBUTION CENTER
DEPARTMENT OF CUSTOMER SERVICES
$5M - $10M
-so they can screw up the routes even further with more prapaganda.
C34589
DEMOLISH ABANDONED STRUCTURES
EIGHT LOCATIONS
$1M - $5M- why let nature take care of that, ever heard of a fence and a lock
C34564
DESIGN/BUILD FACILITY FOR REVENUE OPERATIONS
BROOKLYN
$10M - $50M- when did you hear of a mta armored car being robbed, how do they do it now?
E34367
UPGRADE LIGHTING
TWENTY STATIONS
$10M - $50M- it works, why do it, like a little greedy boy after christmas they throw it all out and scream new new new!
S32315
MODERNIZE SIGNAL SYSTEM
CANARSIE YARD
$10M - $50M- it worked for 50 years whats up?
A35794
REHABILITATE ROOSEVELT AVENUE STATION
QUEENS BOULEVARD LINE
OVER $50M- take a mop and a hose and some bleach and wash off the the pee how much would that cost?
A35920/A35921
RECONSTRUCT TIMES SQUARE STATION COMPLEX
MANHATTAN
OVER $50M- it works why replace it! there wnet more care in designing that station than arcutects would ever put in nowadays. why dows it need new tile why why why, the subway are for transportation not to shave with the tile as a mirror.
The TA tried your approach -- deferred maintenance -- for a while. The system nearly fell apart. Let's learn from our mistakes, shall we?
I'am talking about vissulay changes not physical changes. I know the subways were a friggn mess in the late 70's and early 80's
Um, just about everything on your list incorporated physical changes.
R80247-new balast tamper- for what?
The old ballast tamper is broken or wearing down.
You've never replaced an appliance with a newer model?
That pretty much responds to most of the shit you've posted.
C33281 CONSTRUCT POLICE DISTRICT OFFICE #34SURF & STILLWELL AVENUES $10M - $50M- why so there more cops in the stations that ask you where are you going? why are you going? what is in that bag? sorry we will have to take you to the station for further questioning!, and see you as guilty until proven inocent, any pay for more burocracy.
Fine, let's have NO cops walking around. We'll see how you enjoy being robbed, beaten and killed fairly often.
BTW, when was the last time a cop asked you where you're going when you weren't in an unauthorized area?
DEMOLISH ABANDONED STRUCTURES
EIGHT LOCATIONS
$1M - $5M- why let nature take care of that, ever heard of a fence and a lock
Yes, but you've never heard of structures over public streets, or of decrepit and unused structures collapsing, and killing people in the process?
DESIGN/BUILD FACILITY FOR REVENUE OPERATIONS
BROOKLYN
$10M - $50M- when did you hear of a mta armored car being robbed, how do they do it now?
Just because you've never heard of an armored car being robbed, doesn't mean it hasn't or won't happen. If they have to build a new facility, why can't you foresee that the handling of funds there will SAVE money?
MODERNIZE SIGNAL SYSTEM
CANARSIE YARD
$10M - $50M- it worked for 50 years whats up?
You've just answered your own question.
REHABILITATE ROOSEVELT AVENUE STATION
QUEENS BOULEVARD LINE
OVER $50M- take a mop and a hose and some bleach and wash off the the pee how much would that cost?
What about leaks and structural problems? Besides, people are less likely to want to use decrepit stations regularly, causing a decline in revenue.
A35920/A35921
RECONSTRUCT TIMES SQUARE STATION COMPLEX
MANHATTAN
OVER $50M- it works why replace it! there wnet more care in designing that station than arcutects would ever put in nowadays. why dows it need new tile why why why, the subway are for transportation not to shave with the tile as a mirror.
See above. Both of the above renovations include improvements in access which in turn includes ADA compliance.
2 weeks ago.
in regards to the being questioned by cops.
ohh yahh I SAID CUT THERE PAYCHECK, not make them pay there is a difference.
They mean exactly the same thing. (Well, I suppse the tax impacts would be different.)
Now if their paycheck was cut, what incentive would there be for people to work as a TA executive vs. a private executive? Private executives already get paid much more, if you cut their pay you'd just guarantee that underqualified candidates unable to get jobs elsewhere would be the only ones to apply.
If the MTA wasn't public owned they would improve the system and not seal it up when thing break. the MTA execs aren't there to make the system profitable. their only concern is not to lose money, not run fast efficent service, if they close it less money to repair it, if they slow it to where a bike is faster they won't have money to lose on lawsuites. If they were a private corperation which has to make a profit I swear there would be much less grade timers in the system and thing would run faster.
and the fare would be $5.00 and no transfers to make a profit
Good. You end up paying anyway. User fees are better than taxes.
Taxes pay for services, not matter how bad they may be. You are getting Conserative my friend
[Taxes pay for services, not matter how bad they may be.]
Taxes force everyone to pay for services whether or not they use them. User fees would allow people to pay only for the services they use.
You might think that people in the front office don't do much more than collect money, but they're as necessary as the workers on the ground (and below). Acephalous organizations don't go very far.
Unless they're publicly funded. Sorry guy, I'm just in one of those moods today. Heh.
pay them the same amount as workers on the track, ever heard of "all people born and are the same" (trying to quote Martin Luther King)
We're not talking newborns here or would you suggest that?
Arti
Yes, all people may be created equal, but that doesn't mean they end up equal, you dumbassed pinko commie.
In fact, people are NOT created equal, some people have more physical or mental ability than others.
Finally, I've made another post as to why the executive office can't be payed less. Commies like you may not believe in executives, but they are responsible for a lot more than the workers on the track. All labor is not physical labor.
Pigs cut with the commies junk, you are sounding like a old man from Arcadia who loves the Slow Beach line that does not even go to the beach anymore
I will not cut with the commie crap, not when referring to people who think we can have equal pay and equal results.
That is not Communism, but we will not have a Economics class, wrong website(or Political)
Hey Pig: Don't pay attention to what that Bob says anyway. Did you see the way he attacked me? Called me an old man from Arcadia! He is almost as old as I am and I think he even looks older. I don't know how that commie stuff came up but don't let Bob get your goat. Pay no mind to him.
I look older right now, because of things going on in my life. Great talking to you the other night, miss you.
Don't forget to keep in touch---and let's tentatively plan on next October for a New York trip. Maybe even one this summer. We can ride the Sea Beach to 86th Street. Isn't that a real bummer. You can guess what I'm thinking about the TA right about now.
Your turn to call, I ll know more on what is going on after Tuesday Dec 4, for the next few months at least
Right, my turn. Haven't heard from Steve lately. Is he off line?
Don rt know, maYBE BUSY.
All right, you two. I was doing my best impression on Monday of that poor fellow who ralphed on R-6-2 1277 back in 1973, and moved to a different cubicle at work, so I was tied up and dragging, so to speak. I'm fine now.
Which one of you wants to be Bob Hope and which one wants to be Bing Crosby?:-)
Bob's better looking so he'll be Bing. I fancy myself as a comedian so I will be Bob. BTW, wouldn't Abbott and Costello be even better? Bob reminds me of Costello, sort of.
You re the Italian not me, Maybe Martin and Lewis, Fred, Fred, oy help me Fred
Hotcha Hotcha Hotcha!!!!! That's great Bob, Martin and Lewis. A Jew and a Dago. Why didn't I think of it.
Do you think you two could perfect the "Who's on first, what's on second" routine?
I'm beginning to think my stomach and ribs would be killing me if we all get together next fall. Not to mention wetting my pants...
Steve---We try to please. In fact, you ought to see us when we really get warmed up. We are quite an act. Next fall we may all find that out. Take care.
Steve you could always use Depends. Like Fred
4-6 Track Elevated on Brighton from Neptune to Ocean Pkwy
But.....eventually there will be a complete change-over to LCD signs..correct? Which means all the TO has to do is key in a new code...2 seconds and DONE...
Maybe, maybe not. Right now it looks like the TA likes electronic signs, but I haven't seen any indication that future purchases will necessary stick with the trend. Keep in mind that the 7 will probably keep its R-62A's until they're retired, and that's (I hope) at least 20 years off.
That's speculation based on more speculation. It has never been OFFICIALLY stated that the #11 signs will be used for anything, or that R-62As will be transferred to the Flushing Line.
David
The 11 would be much easier. I really hate waiting for a local 7 at GCT when the expresses run too. Half the time the train has the wrong sign up on front, or the wrong light lit on the front. its almost impossible to tell whether its express or local. Either they need a new designation for expresses, or TO's need to get their act together and either put the appropriate sign up (diamond or circle) and turn the right light on (red or green). it will make all of us Sunnyside residents very happy :)
Telling someone "transfer to the 8 train"
does sound an AWFUL lot like "transfer to the A train".
"Telling someone "transfer to the 8 train"
does sound an AWFUL lot like "transfer to the A train".
Just add one word.......transfer to the NUMBER 8 train.
Bill "Newkirk"
And of the examples we've seen here in the past of people wanting the 'Letter 4 Train'?
-Hank
No, not really...
Yes, really. People do ask for the 'Number A' or the 'Letter 6' train all the time. We have too many lines to go by colors, and there aren't sufficient letters in the alphabet. What to do, what to do...
-Hank
Double letters! Nah, that'd be heresy. :)
diamond/express/special A and regualar/normal A use the diamonds!
The "diamond" thing just doesn't do it for me ... "part time service" doesn't tell me if it's going to stop at 50th St ...
Yeah, not for me either. But they are a girl's best friend.
Yeah, but the TA's rocks cost a lot more than those that come out of the ground. :)
That is what I liked about the old Marker lights. You are racing to catch a A train from the front these days., you want to go to Howard Beach with your suitcase, you can t tell if the train is going to Lefferts or Rockaway, until you get 1/2 past the 1st car to reaD THE SIGN. Maybe the A should be 207-Far Rockaway. H-Rockaway Pk and K-Far Rockaway. So what if you have 3 8th Ave Expresses. At least you would know where the damn train is going to South Bound
How about
A-207 Street-Lefferts Blvd
H-207 Street-Far Rockaway
S-Broad Channel-Rockaway Park.
A-207 Street-Lefferts Blvd
If only it went that far! No, Lefferts Blvd is only arround 120th Street or so.
:) Andrew
>>> Lefferts Blvd is only arround 120th Street or so. <<<
You are kidding aren't you? If you were not kidding, look at the other end of the map.
Tom
Oh! Now I get it! DUUUUUUUUUUUH!
:-o Andrew
Yeh, but don t they still in Rush Hours run thru trains to Rock Pk?
I'd use A for Far Rockaway trains and K for Lefferts trains. H wouldn't be a bad letter to use, either, but I call trains to Lefferts "K," even if they're signed "A."
Besides, those people coming from the airport can ride the world famous A train from the airport, as long as the Far Rockaway branch is served by A trains.
Remember the A went to Lefferts before it went to Rockaway, anyhow, whatever the letter, A-H-K each Southern Destination should have its own Letter not all A and Q Diamond and Q Circle, the Q Diamond should also have its own letter. Maybe the T since the T has not been used in over 20 years
Exactly!
It is strange. I never understood why the A train is the only route that goes to multiple destinations at the same time of day. I don't know why they don't use A for Far Roackaway and H or something for Lefferts trains. As long as you are alternating A trains, it may as well be two different letter routes. It's not adding trains or anything.
I agree, much simpler, they already have the roll sigmns for it people will know A to Far Rockaway H or K to Lefferts H or K to Rock Pk will still use same letter on Shuttle. Too many S lines
There are not too many S lines. The constant usage of S is good because its universal for Shuttle. You can walk down to the platform, see the S, and know this train probably won't go very far (with the exception of 63rd Street).
I still like the idea of an A to let's say Far Rockaway, K or something to Lefferts. H to Rock Park. We're not adding trains here. It can run the same way and amount of trains we have now, just get rid of the A to three different places.
That is what i have been saying, you see a K at 42nd St, you know where it is going, and it is not where you want to you don t have to run for it
Exactly!
I agree wholeheartedly.
:-) Andrew
As someone already had stated in a previous post, "H" is still internally referred as the Rockaway Shuttle so why not use it to identify the trains.
The TA's association with the letter S for all shuttles.
My point exactly!
It's not the only one. The rush hour 5 goes to either Dyre or 238th. (As I've posited elsewhere, IMO the 5's use of the diamond is inconsistent with its use elsewhere on the subway. Only the 238th Street branch should get the diamonds.)
I do agree that trains to Lefferts and trains to Far Rockaway should have distinct designations. Ideally, when more cars become available, the C should be extended to Lefferts, with A trains alternating between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park. (At night, suspend A service. The C will run, extended northward to 207th. The round-robin H, from Euclid to Rock Park to Far Rock to Euclid and so on, will be revived.) Yes, there are still two south terminals for the A, but at least all A trains will stop at Howard Beach. The only downside is the required transfer for night Rockaways and airport service.
One of the main reasons bandied around for not doing splitting the A onto three letters, is the alleged stupidity of many subway users. We've all heard about the morons who used to stand around at South Ferry to wait for a 1 when they could've got the 9 too.
Perhaps it'd be less confusing if the MTA were to extend the C to Lefferts and run some A trains short to Euclid.
I personally would like to see a K-train on the modern equivalent of its former route: 21 Queensbridge - 6 Av - Willy Bridge - Rockaway Parkway Express. It'll never happen though!
Perhaps it'd be less confusing if the MTA were to extend the C to Lefferts and run some A trains short to Euclid.
I didn't think of that. It would solve part of the problem. Why do they terminate the C at Euclid anyway. At one time I remember it running to Rock Park, or at least Broad Channel.
If they ran the C to Lefferts, most of the people will change for the Express anyway. It gives Lefferts/Rockaway 1 train Service into the City
I say bring back bulkhead destination signs in some shape or form.
If they have the destinations on it, or bring back the Marker Lights R-G Brighton Exp
haha
diamond/express/special A and regualar/normal A use the diamonds!
It will give you 24 more letters
No we don't have too much of anything. Those that do the letter and number mixup are just plain stupid. They should repeat school and learn the alphabet. 1 is a number, A is a letter. I don't understand how a "confusing" subway system can mess up one's brain by somehow scrambling the concept of numbers and letters...Whatever.
Those that do the letter and number mixup are just plain stupid. They should repeat school and learn the alphabet. 1 is a number, A is a letter. I don't understand how a "confusing" subway system can mess up one's brain by somehow scrambling the concept of numbers and letters...Whatever.
Post of the WEEK!! (LMAO)
:)
>>> I don't understand how a "confusing" subway system can mess up one's brain by somehow scrambling the concept of numbers and letters <<<
As used to identify lines in the Subway system, both the numbers and letters are identifying "characters" since they are not used for either spelling or mathematics, so whatever one calls them does not scramble the concept of numbers and letters.
Tom
I think there still are some letters left to use. Just because a letter was used in the distant past as some service, doesn't mean it can't be reused somewhere else today. The K was used I believe as the Chrystie Street connector between the Eastern division and the 6th Avenue. But, for a while in the late 80's, there was a blue K on the 8th Avenue, that had nothing to do with the other "K" (Where did the Blue K go, I only slightly remember it.)
So we have:
The H - long dead on the Roackways
The K - long dead on 8th Ave and 6th Ave
The P - Take a "P" near the wall train
The T - never used?
The X - never used?
The Y - never used?
No good - "U" confused with "V"
- "I" confused with 1
- "O" everyone will think zero, it just won't work.
So we have 6 potential letter routes.
The T was in fact used. When letters were first assigned to the BMT lines (early 60s?), the T was the West End Express, running from Coney Is. to Astoria -- essentially today's W train.
Y,X,U are reserved for the Second avenue line. V of course is 6th ave,P was Broadway Brooklyn special to Midtown[never used],T replaces R on QUEENS BLVD when the Second ave line's up and running[with R becoming the Broadway Express via 2nd ave]W of course is Broadway's West End line.
Y,X,U are reserved for the Second avenue line.
Do you think we'll still be using the Latin Alphabet in the 41st Century?
when will people stop supporting mayors who dislike the subway. maybe bloomburg should ride a subway for once, especialy in the front cab, maybe then there will be a change ALL KILL GRADE TIME!! the mta's excuse for so-called track maintannece.
Idon't know.Will you still be alive to tell me at my grave site?
I don't know if I'll be alive, but after you're buried, you need to tell me where.
The 8th Ave K was the old AA, the 8 was the Astoria Line
When you run out of letters, just start using numbers on the B division too. If the Q train and the 15 train run on the same track, nobody's sense of tradition will be offended; at least people will know where they are going. (Los Angeles Railways used both letters and numbers for their routes.)
Someone else mentioned: bring back the front-of-train destination signs (still on the Redbirds). An old idea that should not have been dropped around 1967.
I'll second that.
An off-topic example, but proves the point.
On the Extra Value breakfast menu at McDonalds, there are meals numbered 1 through 8, and letters A, B, and C.
There were a couple of times I asked for a letter A and got (was charged for) a number 8, and vice versa.
make up more roll signs ?? ..................eh ???.................................lol!!
It makes absolute perfect sense, which is perhaps why they aren't adopting this system.
There is also a #12, #13 and #14 on the rollsigns. #12 and #13 are red, #14 is green, perhaps for a diamond #4. Not sure what #12 and #13 would replace.
wayne
Isn't there also a twelve in green? I know of a red five, green two, and various others.
And a green (10).
Never seen a green 2 or a red 5, although that green 2 would have come in handy while the TA was doing major reconstruction of the Lenox Avenue line and the 2 ran one direction normal and the other direction down Lex during weekdays. But I don't think the R62 or 62A signs have a green 2 or a red 5.
Rumor has it the < 7 > will become the 11 but since the redbirds don't carry that sign, it won't happen until they are sunk :-(.
One reason you won't see double digits is that the R-142 side signs only have one digit's worth of space for the route number. Although the MTA could do the 7/11 split with the R-62 fleet, they'd have to change it again sometime in the future.... probably won't happen.
remember the R-142 are perminently signed, you know that "where you are in the route sign" where the ads are. It cant be changed, you would have to climb up and your feet, take off the plastic protecter and change it from 6 to whatever, thats a lot of work, so I don't think they do since they can't even keep the system in repair so they simply install a Grade Time.
They would still have to change the automated voice annoncer. You know when the Q&W ran to queens at 59st they said "N,R,W" when 9/11 happened. It is not programable.
They don't announce the W. They also still announce the B, D and Q at Bleecker southbound.
The lighted route maps were actually changed on a few R142s and 142As. During last summer, the TA ran R142s 6336-40 with R142As 7211-15 to see if they could succesfully run together. This combo train ran on both the 2 and 6. I rode it on the 6 and looked at the lighted map in car 6336. It was a 6 line map.
the MTA they don't want tourist to get confussed. HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAH.
Anyways why did get those automated voice thing if they can
1.unscrew door controol panel
2. take out microphone
3. to leads conect to a jack
4. put jack where microphone used to be
5. put pannel back on
6. install holding bracket on panel
7. connect digital plyer of some kind to jack
8. hang player in bracket
9. have 2 buttons, one for "stand clear the closing doors" other for next station.
saved 500 million green
Put me down as against a (7)(11) split. In fact, put me down as against all two-digit numbers, if it can be helped.
The current system of single letters, single-digit numbers, and color-coding is one of the smartest things the MTA has ever done. Simplicity and recognizability are very important for route identification, and the fact that this is accomplished is key to the modern NYC subway. When you start getting into two-digit numbers it starts to get a lot harder to remember and recognize in a single glance.
It certainly doesn't make sense to use a number 11 to augment the (7). Apart from local/express distinctions, they're exactly the same route. And since we're dealing with a peak-direction only express situation, it's going to be a logistical nightmare.
Yes I know the BMT used to use numbers up to 16 or so. And nobody used them. Most trains didn't even display them. My dad lived in BMT territory (Brighton Beach then Jamaica) for many years before the switchover to letters and never knew the numbers existed.
:-) Andrew
The numbers existed on the BMT from the 20s when the Triplex was born. prior to R16 the only line I remember on the Eastern Division that used the numbers was the 16-Carnarsie Line which ran the 5 car multis bluebird and other pro types.
empty
Where can I find schedules for the NYC Subway? I'd like see how long it takes certain lines to get from one terminal to the next. Especially the F, 2, A, and M lines.
The MTA web site has timetables for almost every line which should help you out,
www.mta.info
They might not have timetables for the 1 2 or 3 lines since they were changed.
I know they must have been a lot of FUN to ride on .. They are so cute & beautiful to look at ...
You know i think they have the right idea about what electric rail transit is supposed to be in other nations.. etc ....
Almost makes you want to move there to live !! ...................lol !!!!!
I really enjoyed looking at all of the shots you took ...wish we had something like that here in the united states !!!!
thanks again ..........salaamallah .....................transitphotographer ...
i cant say it enough ..................again ......!!
@ ......lol ...!!!
Thanks! I thought a lot of those tram shots turned out really nice. I would have been upset had it been raining that day!
You Can't be too upset when it rains, I love rain shots!
The Glare, The Reflexion, It's so wonderful!
Example:
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
could you re post that again my brother ??
Here You Go!
The Glare, The Reflexion, It's so wonderful!
Example:
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
yep it just rained here ...........lol .....
looks like a GM bus made in pontiac mich . ???
Its a 1996 NovaBUS RTS-06, but we will try to refrain from doing a "Bus Talk" here!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
lol ... U know ""rainshots""...R....not bad at all ........lol
yes sir ! they were adorable !! did they make the pre world war 2 grinding musical sounds ( like the r-1-9s ) ???
excllent digital photography .............. like i do here in los angeles ..........lol.....!!!
Or, rather, one unannounced service change and one announced service change that appears to have been cancelled.
The Q is running via tunnel in both directions as of 10pm (until 5am Monday, I think). I don't know if it's making stops en route -- my information is from the signs posted along the Canal Street tunnel platform around 8pm, when trains were still running over the bridge. I assume this is to permit repair work on the tracks at the curve into the station.
The J was scheduled to have split service at Canal Street all weekend. It isn't -- or, at least, it wasn't as of 8pm. This is an interesting GO, making use of the "express" tracks through the Bowery and the stub "express" track on the northbound platform at Canal, so I hope next week's GO is still active.
Having been on the Broadway Local south of Canal St for the past two nights/early mornings, I can confirm that yes the Q is running via the tunnel towards Brooklyn and it is indeed making all stops.
Today, It's part four of Life in Commuter.
This will be the final installment of this little series. There was so much
to write about, it was about impossible to do it in one or two installments.
We'll look at some of the different events and interesting situations that
occurred while I was working the Electric District of Metra. We'll also go
over the MU Highliners a little more in depth.
As I have mentioned, the Electric District is powered by overhead 1500v DC
current. I was never really comfortable under this wire. There was just
something about having all that juice overhead I guess. One morning while
working the very first train of the day into Chicago, I had an up close and
personal encounter with the wire.
During the overnight hours the ambient temperature had dropped significantly
and quickly. I was working the first train into the city that morning from
University Park. Having slowed to cross over from track 3 to 4 at 69th
Street (very south end of the 67th Street Interlocking), I was rapidly
accelerating again. I was now approaching 63rd Street station on track 4 in
this rather bitter cold weather. All of a sudden something seemed to fall
right in front of me. Before I could even react, it made contact with the
front of the car. A lovely flash of brilliant electric blue lit up the cab
and briefly blinded me. Then there was this loud thump and a pop sound
followed by lots of banging. Quickly I put the train into emergency and we
came to screeching halt.
Apparently the wire broke right in front of my train and I struck it. This
rapidly got ugly. I opened my cab door and looked up to assess the damages.
They weren't good. The pantograph on the lead car (the elbow like looking
device that makes the contact with the wire) was torn completely off. The
pantograph on the second car was hanging over the side. I immediately
notified Randolph Control of our situation. I then informed the Conductor
who had now joined me in the cab.
After a couple of minutes, Randolph Control called the South Chicago Loop
train waiting for us at 59th Street and instructed them to head on down
towards our train and spot it directly along side of us. He had four cars
this morning. Whenever the weather got cold, all the non-rush trains
operated with four cars instead of two in case something went wrong. That
philosophy paid off today.
After he arrived, we moved everybody from our train to their train sending
any South Chicago people towards the rear two cars and the Loop train
sending Downtown bound people to the head two cars. Essentially, we made our
passenger swaps here. We would take his head two cars and proceed on our way
into the city. With everybody safely boarded, we made the cut, performed the
required air tests and departed.
Being that each track has its own circuit, the only track power was lost to
was track three between the air gaps for this segment. Air gaps are the
locations for breaks for each segment of overhead power. If they need to
kill the power at a certain location, they do it between two or more air
gaps. The entire track does not have to be shutdown. Each air gap is marked
with signs at either end that say "Air Gap."
As Metra is in the business of hauling people as opposed to freight, no
regular training is given to student Engineers with regards to handling
freight trains. This can be bad for one major reason, work trains. Just like
the freight railroads, Metra operates work trains to assist in maintaining
its quality and smooth track. This may require a train of ballast to be
brought out and dumped along the way for a tamping or surfacing gang to work
into the right of way later. New rail is hauled on specially equipped rail
rack cars designed for hauling quarter mile lengths of welded rail. The rail
is unloaded from these cars along the right of way for later installation by
a steel gang. There may very well be other types of work trains operated as
well. Many of the Engineers Metra has trained in recent years have no
previous freight experience. Unfortunately for these Engineers, they do not
know or understand the vast and significant differences between running a
freight train as opposed to a passenger train.
As it would happen, one day I was called for a work train. Even though I was
not in the correct position on the extra board for it, they called me owing
to my years of freight service prior to joining Metra. I was informed of
this when they called. I was also informed that I was to have a student
Engineer this day as well. Hmm, I get to give one easy lesson in how to
operate a freight train to somebody who has never worked freight ever. This
ought to be fun.
I arrived at the former Burr Oak Yard in Blue Island. This was a major Rock
Island facility in happier times, like when the Rock was still in business.
Today it is just called Blue Island Yard by Metra. Much of the track has
been removed. Metra uses what track remains today for storing some of their
maintenance of way cars. The rest is leased to the Iowa Interstate Railroad
and the Chicago Rail Link for their Chicago area freight operations.
There are two SW1500 switch engines of Southern Pacific heritage coupled to
27 loads of ballast with the rear brought up by an extended vision caboose.
Yes Metra has a caboose. It is required for the rather lengthy back up move
required to get out of the yard and crossed over to the Metra Electric Blue
Island Branch. Being that Metra does not offer any freight training for its
Conductors and Assistant Conductors, they do not want these folks trying to
hang onto the side of freight cars when they do not really know what they
are doing.
So after securing all the necessary permission, we shove out of the yard
onto the Rock mains, cross onto the Electric District Blue Island Branch and
head to Kensington. We would be spreading ballast at the still under
construction KYD (Kensington Yard) facility just south of Kensington. Once
upon a time, the IC and later ICG had a coach yard here called KYD. The old
yard long out of service was ripped out, a new heavy maintenance facility
and offices for the PAL (Passenger Assistance Link) Center and support yard
for the shops and adjoining material yard was constructed. The old KYD name
was resurrected for the new facilities. I guess that makes whatever old new
again.
I gave my student plenty of opportunity to learn the proper way to drop
rock. He actually did very well. We unloaded about 10 or 12 cars worth of
rock that day, left the remaining loads of ballast there and hauled back the
empties along with several other cars from KYD back to Blue Island. A
Trainmaster was there to assist us in getting the air test and helping us
shove out of the yard towards Kensington. Sounds easy enough, right?
My student commented that the train seemed "heavy." We checked with the
Trainmaster and he informed us all was right with this train's world. Off we
go. The Conductor and Brakeman were on the head end with us and not on the
caboose which was really nothing more than a riding platform.
Upon arrival at the connection from the Blue Island Branch to the Rock
Island Main Line, I took over running. I noticed the train really feeling
"heavy." As we pulled the by the Conductor and Brakeman the Conductor calls
me and asks if it is bad if wheels on a car are not turning. DOH! I learned
upon inspection that the rear three cars and caboose had the hoses made but
the air was not cut into them. This means the brakes on these cars were
still in emergency. The brakes were fully applied. The wheels had slid for
quite a way and put huge flat spots on the wheels of all the cars involved.
So much for the assistance from the Trainmaster and his statement of all
being right.
We informed the people at the Rock Island shops in Blue Island. They told us
it would be taken care of and not to fill out any reports. Never heard a
word about the incident. Sure, the Trainmaster would have had to explain how
he performed the air test in an investigation. Any Union Rep with half a
lick of sense would have crucified this guy during his testimony. And with
that, the crew being us, would have been exonerated and received a day's pay
for attending.
There was a wheel-truing machine in the shops at Blue Island. Five nights a
week a job would come over from the Rock Island District and take two MU
Highliner cars over to the shops where the wheels would be trued on the
machine. This was an on car machine which meant the wheels did not have to
be removed from the cars to cut them. An SW 1 switch engine was modified
with a special coupler to allow it to be able to couple directly to the MU
Highliners to handle them safely.
Owing to the nature of the beast, the MU Highliner cars had a terrible
tendency to get flat spots on the wheels. If the rail was frosty at all,
wet, or even had leaves on it, the wheels tended to slide rather easily on
these cars during routine braking causing flat spots on the wheels. In one
situation, an Engineer slid through a stop signal at Homewood when the
wheels picked up on him while he was attempting to stop on frosty rail.
Through no fault of his own, he did significant damage to all the wheels on
his six-car train.
As I mentioned in an earlier segment of this commuter series, Metra had a
yard and servicing facility at 18th Street in Chicago called the 18th Street
MU Shed. The cars would be serviced here Monday through Friday except
holidays. The shed was built in 1926 as a temporary facility for the new
electric cars the IC was receiving to replace the locomotive pulled coaches,
Up until that point, steam locomotives referred to as "Tea kettles" were
used in suburban service. To this day, the facility still stands and remains
in service having received renovations.
There were four tracks within the shed itself. And several yard tracks for
storing cars. In addition to the Locomotive Engineers there were also
various Mechanical Department personnel that worked here and were also
allowed to move the equipment around the facility. In addition, there were
several Switchmen employed as well. To accomplish all the moves in a timely
manner, everybody used radios. There were numerous radios, which were kept
in the Foreman's office overnight along with extra batteries and a large
rack to recharge them.
One Sunday evening Randolph Control contacted the Metra Police when they
received notification of the burglar alarm being set off at the 18th Street
MU Shed. The Police went over there, investigated and notified Randolph
Control of no improprieties. Had they actually stepped out of their cruisers
and checked the doors, they would have found one jimmied and now, unlocked.
But they didn't.
The following morning when everybody arrived for work, it was then learned
what had really happened when the alarm went off; somebody had indeed broken
and entered and made off with all the radios and batteries. The place was
cleaned out. They did leave the charger rack though. If only they had
known..
As the morning rush began to kick into high gear, strange and unusual radio
broadcasts began to grace the ether. All Engineers were required to call
into Randolph Control for a time and radio check before departing their
initial terminal. This particular morning, everybody was getting additional
response other than Randolph. We all were being told to have sexual acts
performed upon us, to perform sexual acts upon them, to go to hell and as
well as all sorts of other wild and bizarre comments and statements. This
went on night and day for a couple of days until all the batteries were
dead. I commented that the perpetrators would probably come back next Sunday
and steal the charger. Needless to say, nobody was ever caught and the
radios and batteries were never recovered.
Randolph Street Station was the northern terminus on the Electric District.
Metra trains went below ground level to load and empty. There were six
working tracks as well as a storage track that once upon a time was used for
regular passenger loading. On occasion, this track would be pressed into
service, but even then, only for reasons like track work. The South Shore
trains used a separate facility above ground and just east of the main
station. This too was built as a temporary facility when the Shore began
operating directly into Chicago instead of just to Kensington where once
upon a time their passengers transferred to and from IC trains.
Being below ground level could and did result in a few serious problems. On
one occasion, a private contractor was excavating along side the South Shore
platforms. They dug into and unmarked water line. I was working a relay job
the day it happened and observed the entire situation. All of a sudden it
looked like Niagara Falls as a massive amount of water began to gush over
the retaining wall and onto the tracks in the station below. Having seen
Niagara Falls up close and personal twice, I can take the creative license
and use this as the comparison. Along with the water came the earth the
contractor was digging up. Water began to quickly pool and rise.
I contacted the Yardmaster at Randolph Tower and informed him of the water
situation. He was able to stop any traffic bound for the tracks on the lead
involved in the flood. Within ten minutes or so, a shut off valve was
located and the flow stopped. Inspection of the track showed no damage or
undermining of the roadbed. The muck on the rails was cleared and traffic
resumed as normal. Fortunately, this was a good hour before the afternoon
rush would begin, so the whole normal operating plan did not go down in
flames.
The second flood occurred when a contractor working on driving pilings in
the Chicago River punctured an old underground railroad tunnel. The river
decided to attempt to empty all of itself into the old tunnel system. Being
that water loves to seek its own level, the river suddenly found itself in
places it had never been before, like the crew room, Yardmaster's office and
a portion of Randolph Control, all located within the bowels of Randolph
Street Station. They were not alone though as much of downtown Chicago
received serious basement and sub-basement flooding which disrupted just
about everything in business and commerce in the Loop.
I was just tying up and heading for home when this occurred. I made it out
of Randolph quickly and didn't turn back. I had previously arranged for a
couple of days off and had no intention of having them cancelled on account
of floods. If they cannot get a hold of me, they cannot cancel them. I made
a very quick exit
As Jackie Gleason used to say "A little travelling music Sam!"
"And awaaay we go!"
I returned three days later and was told of the events that took place.
Water came up through a pump basin flooding the crew room at Randolph. The
water went out the doors onto the passenger platform and cascaded over the
ends onto the tracks. Water levels never even reached the tops of the rails
though. The water did make its way all over the place in the facility. Even
though water made its way into the offices of Randolph Control, it didn't
disrupt operations. The equipment used in this office to switch power on and
off to track segments and for other operations is above the floor on a ledge
of sorts. Thus, the water did not reach or damage any of the equipment. Had
it done so, the operation would have ground to a halt.
Metra Bridge and Building (B&B) folks brought in extra pumps to try to hold
the water at bay. A contingency plan was in place had the tracks in the
station flooded, but did not have to be implemented.
Within a couple of days, all was pretty much back to normal within the
facility, if you didn't pay attention to the smell.
Let's take an up close look at the MU Highliner cars. These cars were in
pretty ragged shape by the time I had arrived here in 1991. Most of them
were almost 20 years old and had reached their life expectancy. When the IC
bought the first batch of them, they figured on 20 years of life from the
cars. They were also expecting to be out of the business of hauling
passengers on electric trains as well by the end of this twenty-year period.
They certainly succeeded on the latter count.
The MU Highliners had a different type of brake valve than a freight or
passenger locomotive. If I recall correctly, it was a number 60 schedule
system. Being gone from there so long has me forgetting all the portions of
the valve. There was only one brake handle, as the cars did not have an
independent brake like a locomotive.
The throttle on the Highliners was called a controller. Again, very
different from a locomotive. The controller was mounted on a drum in front
of the Engineer. It had six positions, off, coast, switch, series, parallel
and field shunt. Field shunt was prohibited from use on Metra. The South
Shore allowed it on their line, as their track speed was higher. Maximum
speed on the Electric District was 65 mph while the Shore allows 79 mph in
spots. The controller was a rotary type operation. To engage the controller
and cause the current to load, you had to hold it down. If you let it go
even while at the selected power, the car would not load any amperage.
Engineers varied with their handling of the controller. Having had a chance
to fire for many of them while I was qualifying, I got to see different
methods. None of them were wrong, just their own individual style. I
developed my own style in watching and running for all of them.
Being that all the cars were powered and pretty much had the same braking
system, all cars reacted to what you did with the controller or brakes on
the lead car. Hence the name MU or Multiple Unit Highliners.
All the MU Highliners had a dead man's pedal. If for any reason you were not
holding down the controller while moving and you took your foot off the dead
man's pedal, the train would immediately go into emergency. There was no
whistle or warning, just POW! There was a way to defeat the pedal, but it
was a huge rule violation as you were defeating a safety appliance. Simply
centering the reverser handle while moving disengaged the dead man's pedal.
The event recorder would verify this as it kept track of such behavior.
Centering the reverser while moving was a decertifiable offense should you
be caught doing it. One could lose their license for such a violation.
As I have mentioned previously, the Highliners had problems that started
with their delivery. Some of these problems never got better even with all
the modifications and adjustments made to the cars. They were very
inconsistent when it came to braking. The previously mentioned sliding
wheels were minor compared to some of the problems.
The cars were built with blended braking system that used air, dynamic
braking and hydraulic assisted braking. When it worked right, it was
unbelievable. 65 mph to a stop at a station could be accomplished in less
than half a mile. You could hit the end of a platform at 30-35 mph and be
stopped smoothly in six car lengths. However, the system was cantankerous.
You never knew when it was going to decide to quit on you. Three successive
station stops might be fine. That fourth stop would be the killer. Without
warning, you would lose the hydraulic, dynamic or both, referred to as "no
high and dy." This now meant you were braking only with the straight air. It
added to your braking distance and reduced some of the smoothness of the
braking as well. It also made for white knuckles time as you wondered if you
were going to get stopped in time for the platform.
There was a great feature on each car called electric hold. This allowed you
recharge the brake system while holding brake application on the train.
There was a little toggle switch on the right side of the cab above the
controller. As long as the switch was on in the controlling car, you had the
feature. On occasion, the system would foul up and you would lose electric
hold. Normally, you discovered this when you suddenly quit slowing down
after engaging electric hold to recharge the air brake system. Again, this
could lead to those pale digits as you quickly tried to compensate for this
loss of braking effort.
On more than one occasion I had a door or two or even a car or two off the
platform account braking trouble. I was not alone here either. The hydraulic
was troublesome, prone to failures and a very high maintenance headache.
Air compressors were another problem. In the summer they tended to overheat.
In winter they froze up. Other times they just overloaded. In all cases,
they shut down. When they did, the car would quit loading and then became a
trailer and nothing more than dead weight.
These and other problems, along with the age and deteriorating bodies on the
cars required Metra to take action. A plan was crafted and one hundred
thirty of the Highliners would be rebuilt. Thirty of them had previously
been rebuilt. Morrison-Knudsen was contracted to rebuild them. As part of
the deal, M-K agreed to open a plant in the Chicago area for this work. Also
part of the package included M-K building a new order of gallery cars to be
used in diesel service. These cars were kits fabricated in Japan by Sumitomo
and shipped to the US as shells on wheels. M-K performed all the finishing
work on them here.
The very first car to come out of rebuild for testing was the 1653. It
looked sharp in its new sliver and blue with orange trim paint. As luck
would have it, I was called to be the test Engineer on its maiden voyage.
Aside from the fancy new paint and reworked bodies, there were numerous
mechanical changes to the cars as well. Higher speed blowers for cooling
traction motors and electrical gear were applied. They made it sound like
you were sitting inside an airplane at 30,000 feet. There were new
compressors. The nightmarish hydraulic assist was removed in exchange for a
modified dynamic braking system. The interiors were reworked exchanging the
1970's era decorum for a modern look of soft colors and much more
comfortable seats. The honker style horn was replaced with a two- chime
model. The gong bell on the front was replaced with a standard air powered
bell mounted underneath the car.
We took the car from Woodcrest (where Metra was leasing space from the IC at
that time) out to the main line for low, medium and high speed testing.
There was a designated section of track on number 4 between 111th Street and
67th Street used for testing. There were orange marks sprayed on the
catenaries for accelerating and braking marks.
Randolph Control would give you a block and allow you to operate in either
direction unrestricted. You had no speed limit as you were under the
guidance and instructions of the mechanical personnel aboard with you
testing the equipment. You were also allowed to use field shunt. While all
MU Highliners had the field shunt portion of the controller blocked out,
test cars did not.
So there we were, going back and forth, testing acceleration and braking. At
times the mechanical folks had me getting the car going as fast as I could
and then just putting it into emergency. They were measuring response of the
equipment and braking distances. Numerous adjusting and tweaking to the
equipment was undertaken between test runs. Surprisingly, I was even asked
for my input. Why so surprised? In this day and age, the last people the
folks in charge want to receive input from are the help.
We tested this car for hours. They had charts and all sorts of data gathered
by the end of the day before we returned the car to Woodcrest for more work.
I was fun. I guess this would sort of make me a Chuck Yeager of the rails,
except I didn't lose control of the car, have to bail out and watch it crash
and burn as I parachuted back to earth. Hmm, well maybe not quite like Chuck
Yeager.
While operating in commuter service, we ran on the door light. When stopping
and working a station, as soon as the doors began to open, the green door
light in the cab would extinguish. Once the doors closed, that same green
light would illuminate again. This was our signal to proceed. On occasion,
there would be a system malfunction and the door light would fail. You then
worked on the communicating buzzer. On trains with flag stops, the buzzer
was also used to signal a station stop in advance.
As I recall, if you received three buzzes on the communicator, it meant stop
at the next station. When standing, if you received two buzzes, it meant
proceed. Normally, this was only used when the door light system failed or
you were running late and instructions were worked out between the Engineer,
Conductor and Assistant Conductor. When running, two buzzes meant stop
immediately.
When standing with the brakes applied, one buzz meant release the brakes.
Another buzz after releasing meant apply the brakes. After a completed air
test, two buzzes meant highball on the air.
On a train that made flag stops, if I spotted a passenger on a platform at a
flag stop, I would give the Conductor and Assistant Conductor one buzz to
alert them to be in position to open the doors.
Unless otherwise restricted, we were expected to operate at normal track
speeds in all weather conditions. Doing this in the fog was always fun. You
really had to know your railroad then. Sometimes by more than just feel and
by the sight of those familiar rocks in the ballast, it was also by sound.
At certain locations, you heard certain sounds coming from below you, such
as operating over a bridge that passes over a highway. There might be a
slightly rough joint that made more noise as you passed over it.
After working some 20 months or so on the Electric District, I was bored. I
realized I missed working freight. It was far more of a challenge. I watched
trains on the neighboring IC and began to yearn for the sound and feel of a
diesel locomotive working hard against a heavy train. To me, operating a big
tonnage train was a much greater challenge and thrill than playing with my
oversized Lionel under the wires.
Then one day the Traveling Engineer rode with me. She told of her uncle who
was a CTA Motorman. We at Metra had quite the disdain for those rapid
transit folks. We referred to the CTA as the "Can't Transport Anything" or
the "Can't Transport Anyone." We had a few others too, but they are rather
disgusting. But I digress.
The Traveler was telling me about her uncle. It seems she brought him out
one day to look at the equipment. She said he told her the MU Highliners
were set up very similarly to the equipment the CTA used. This was the last
thing I needed to hear. Not that a CTA Motorman is less skilled or less
important than I am, it is just in my mind they are not railroaders. They
are rapid transit folk. They run short little cars at lower speeds. An
eight-car CTA train is about the length of a four-car MU Highliner train.
Rapid transit folk do not run freight. They never handle 120 car, 15,000 ton
coal trains. They never operate diesels.
A few weeks later while growing more bored and disgusted, the beautiful
bride and I went over to a bar-b-que at some friend's home. He had just been
hired at the Indiana Harbor Belt. He sang the praises of the place and all
the money to be made. He told me they were still hiring and needed lots of
Engineers. That was all I needed. A couple of drinks later and I was asking
him for names and phone numbers. Within a month or so, I too was a new hire
of the IHB and exited the people train business.
That move brought and this story brings an end to Life in Commuter.
Let me take this opportunity to wish everybody and their families and safe
and happy Thanksgiving. Even though we have experienced significant tragedy
and dramatic change in this great country of ours, we still have plenty to
be thankful for. Count your blessings. Even as difficult as things may seem
to be, there are still many blessings we need to be thankful for. Even if we
have lost a loved one from the results of September 11th, we are alive. We
have survived for a reason. Make that reason be positive and not negative.
We continue to have and hold the lasting memories of those loved ones lost
and the great times spent together with them. Nobody can ever take away the
memories of our great times. Always be thankful for those great times. We
own them outright, they are all ours and always will be.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001 by JD Santucci
I went to college in Boston from 89-94. while there i came across a book with plans for the NYC subway expansion projects, among them were the 2nd ave subway, and an extention of the 2 an 5 trains past the flatbush/ nostrand teminus. Does anyone know where i can find a copy of this?? I beleive that this book came from the late 60's or early 70's.
Historical Maps of New York City Subways or something like that is availabel from the Transit muesum. It's a book full of pouches containing maps from the turn of the century to present. It has a great map of the IND "Second System" plus improvements to the existing IRT and BMT lines.
PPS
METROPOLITAN TRANSPORTATION - a program for action
Report to
NELSON A. ROCKEFELLER
Governor of New York
FROM THE
METROPOLITAN COMMUTER TRANSPORTATIN AUTHORITY
February 1968
Sound like it? I've got a copy -- try eBay or ask around.
David
It seems the link for the brooklyn trolley museum site is not working. Is there anyone who can send me info about it? Do they need volunteers at all??
mike
You can e-mail Bob Diamond at bowtrolley@msn.com
Bill "Newkirk"
I would like to know what are the requirements to become a Train Motorman/Conductor? Also, what are the requirements for Road Car Inspector? Besides what does Road Car Inspector does for the subway train?
There were no requirements for T/O and C/R up until recently. Now I believe that you need 3 years various working experience, and a high school diploma.
For RCI, I believe that you need 4 years experience with electrical work or 2 years work & 2 years education. Train Dude (a former RCI) could go into better details regarding the RCI title. The RCI is like a roving fix-it man.
is that for external people to start as Motormen or C/Rs? or internals too? if so, i guess if MTA hires me for Trackworker, i will be stuck on the rails for a lil while. Ewww!
It's for all titles currently. As far as "working experience" for 3 years, anything including bagging groceries would count towards this.
Off the street Train Operator is 5 years with 30 college credits applying as one year up to 4 of the 5.
If anyone is interested, I put together a new, bare-bones web site to display the best of my press photos to the world.
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/pages/
Comments via email are appreciated, especially if you find something missing.
Yes, this is where I have been for the last few weeks.
-Hank
hank ! nice site !!
how do you like this off topic ....
lol !!! lol!!!
hah LOL "Marta"
There's those new LIRR Long Beach Branch trains again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey I was just browsing a map and I saw that the N only goes to 86th street in Bklyn now....
When did it get cut back from Coney Island?
PPS
I think that was done around the time the M left and the N came back to service. They are repairing the N section at Stillwell Station.
One week later. The N platform at Stillwell was closed on November 3. The N continued to run through, using the W platform, for two more days, as a different GO had suspended W service that weekend. (Whenever a GO suspends W service, the N operates through.)
That possible trip to NYC I posted about a couple of weeks ago is now definite. I'll be flying to NYC on Nov 30th and leaving Dec 2nd, and staying in midtown (as opposed to near ground zero, as was originally planned).
Any GO's going on next weekend that I should know about while I get some railfanning in?
Absolutely! There are some interesting ones. Here's what comes to mind:
The Brooklyn-bound N and R are running over the Manhattan Bridge into Brooklyn, going through the DeKalb Avenue bypass, and running express to 36th Street. From there, the N runs on the W (West End) line to Coney Island. Manhattan-bound service is normal, except that the N will be carrying passengers between Coney Island and 86th Street. Although all of this trackage is used in regular service (except the last bit, which was used until the beginning of this month), the equipment is different. In particular, R-32's (on the N and R) and R-46's (on the R) rarely run over the bridge, and railfan windows are never found on the DeKalb bypass nor on the outer end of the West End line in regular service.
The J is running a "split service" at Canal Street. That means that J trains from Brooklyn and Queens will use the inner ("express") tracks at the Bowery and will terminate on the stub inner ("express") track at the northbound platform at Canal. I believe there is an always-red signal approaching Canal, so trains must key by. These tracks haven't been used in regular service, AFAIK, for decades, except from 1990 to 1992 when weekend J trains terminated at Canal (the terminus was moved to Chambers in 1992). A shuttle will run between Canal and Chambers, back and forth on one of the other tracks (probably the southbound one).
The 1 and 2 are running express from Chambers to 14th. There is currently no scheduled express service south of 14th. Catch a Redbird 2 for the best experience, IMO.
The F is running through the 63rd Street connection, but that is about to become the regular service pattern. There will be no E service; the R is extended to Jamaica Center in its stead.
See the service advisories page for details. The page will be updated on Friday (but watch out; sometimes that weekend's GO's are accidentally removed before they even start).
Catch a Redbird 2 for the best experience, IMO.
AAAAAAAAAAAMEN!
With the HOLIDAZE upon us, and out of town folks
visiting for a subway dashing here-n-there,
curiousity runneth the cat over to ask....
WHERE in the (active) system may one find
a RESTROOM??? What Line? What Station?
In Fare Control?
GCT and Penn Sta. are obvious.. ...where else?
No, not GCT and not Penn Station, assuming you're referring to the subway stations. You might be able to talk an S/A into allowing you to use the stations' restrooms and readmit you into the subway station for free.
There was a discussion of subway restrooms here a few months ago. Just last week I answered a similar query on Usenet in this post.
I was almost positive that there was a bathroom inside the GCT (42nd/Lexington) subway station.
Also another at the Herald Square station.
However, be warned, manhattan subway bathrooms are generally horrible.
None inside GCS (the Metro-North station is GCT). I spent some time searching for one and eventually asked a random TA worker, who asked another TA worker, and both were reasonably convinced there were none open to the public.
re: GCS/Metro North Terminal Restroom
...check the lower concourse to the side
of the pastry/bakery/croissant place...
down the hallway & turn left... ;)
Penn Station-
Passenger Waiting Area near escalators.
Yes, I know. But neither of those are within fare control of the subway system. If you're using a pay-per-ride card and you haven't made special arrangements with the S/A, those restrooms will cost you an extra fare.
>>> If you're using a pay-per-ride card and you haven't made special arrangements with the S/A, those restrooms will cost you an extra fare. <<<
If the cost of an extra fare is going to stop you, you didn't really need the restroom after all. Thursday evening I was returning home from a big Thanksgiving dinner, and waited for a bus for half an hour and then had been riding a bus for a little over an hour, with the large meal settling more and more. When we got to Union Station, I got off the bus to find a rest room, even though I knew this would mean I would miss my connection with the last bus of the night to get home. To use the restroom, I was willing to wait seven hours (until 6:00 A.M.) for the next bus to get me home. That's the type of need that does not worry about an extra fare. (I am happy to say the restroom had just been cleaned, and was sparkling.)
Tom
If you're spending half a day railfanning, chances are you'll need a restroom at some point. You might not urgently need it this instant, but it's helpful to plan around a few known in-system facilities.
Your bus didn't have a restroom?
>>> Your bus didn't have a restroom? <<<
Most transit buses, like subway cars, do not have restrooms. This one was a Gillig Phantom.
Tom
I assumed that this was a long-distance bus, given the long wait for the next one. I'm not used to transit systems that shut down for the night -- especially if "night" lasts a full seven hours.
My mistake.
I'm surprised you waited rather than walking home. Of course, I don't know how far you were going. Do cabs stop running at night, too?
>>> I don't know how far you were going. Do cabs stop running at night, too? <<<
I was still 17 miles from home, with knees that are good for about ― mile a day, and my budget would not cover a taxi. Out here not only does public transportation stop at night (except for a few owl routes in the city), on the Thanksgiving holiday San Bernardino had no buses running at all.
Tom
Note my mother once took a greyhound and she put soap on her and pressed the lever and to everyones suprise no water and you have to go for 4 hours with very bad smelling soap on your hands. THis was some thime in the early 50's.
I've always wondered why I have the habit of first wetting my hands before applying soap. Now I know.
Just to be technical like we always love to be GCS= Grand Central Station actually is the correct name for the Post Office near GCT. FYI.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The railroad terminal is a terminal: Grand Central Terminal.
The place the subways stop downstairs is not a terminal (except on the shuttle). It's the station known as Grand Central -- or, if you prefer, Grand Central Station. It is not Grand Central Terminal.
The post office also has a nearby Grand Central Station.
The mens bathroom at 179st (F) term is open 60% of the time. Also if you go to 53st/lex on (E, V or F) go up the transfer to 6 escalator and when you reach the top exit go around where the railing is so you don't fall in to elevator, look at the brown tile wall and look for a sign which is black and has nothing on. Now walk up to it and notice you can still make out the letter behind the cover which say "men" "women". Now the first door to the right or left on the wall is the used to be a bathroom. It colsed some time in ether 96 or 95
Hopefully this is clear.
yessir, post clear... tho we were looking for one
that is OPEN today... hehhe... not one that once
was... :)
The restrooms on the mezzanie of Roosevelt Ave/Jackson Heights (E F G R) are open pretty often. They are about halfway between token booths on the north wall of the mezzanie. I've never been inside, though, since by the time I get to Roosevelt I'm nearly home and I refuse to use a subway bathroom unless it's really imperative. Expect general yuckiness.
Dan
Well the LIRR has it's restrooms locked in the Great Neck station. With the lack of restrooms in and near the transit system, it's no wonder why people pee in the streets and stations.
like peeing on a bum, thats what happens in a subway bathroom.
IIRC:125 street,Times Square,PA bus Term,33street Herald Square.
Which 125th Street station? There are four of them.
I don't think Times Square has a public restroom inside fare control.
125 and Lex.
The one in Times Square is gone, but there is one inside fare control in the IND area.
Excellent. Where?
It's on the west side of the mezzanine not far from the corridor to the IRT/BMT.
57th & 6th --> no one uses this station so the bathroom is usable
Far Rockaway @ Mott Ave. --> beware, last time I was there someone had left a present in the non-working sink in the form of a regurgitated breakfast of Cheerios
57th and 6th? Aargh I was just there a few weeks ago and really had to use a bathroom, but I didn't think there was a customer bathroom there.
Well, now I know.
Are you sure about 57/6? I looked all over for that one once and couldn't find it. (Could it have been outside fare control?) So I proceeded down to 34, where the door was locked tight. I think the one at Union Square was open.
Do you know the sink wasn't working? I don't think I was brave enough to test it.
Only one I know of is Rockaway Park on the S (and rush hour A).
i have a 5-year old who had to go the other the day whil riding the a-train though brooklyn. We got off at Hoyt and I could not find a restroom. We the end result was quit smelly!!
i think the rest rooms were ordered closed by guliani because the gay men would go in there to cruise each other. but as you all know i must be wrong.
Finch Station on the Yonge Street line had fairly claen bathrooms back in the 80's
Dose anyone know the new Web sit Address. I heard about it on the radio over the past few days and keeped missing the address.
Robert
It's www.mta.info. It's the same website with a different name. The old name (www.mta.nyc.ny.us) still works, and so do the subsidiary names (www.lirr.org, etc.).
David
Thanks
Robert
I was trying to figure out stations that had changed names over the years.
Example:
-World Trade Center on the E was Hudson Terminal
-104 Street on the J was 102 Street originally.
-Canal Street on the bridge line was "Broadway"
-They dropped the Elderts Lane on the J and now call it 75th St only.
-Most of the 7 line stations that are numbered now had their original Queens Street Names when the line was built.
Are there others. I remember riding on the IRT in the Bronx once and a station there had it's mosaic signs covered by a new sign, but I forgot where.
Does anyone know any others?
The Bronx IRT station with the covered mosaic is 161.
104 on the J was briefly 104-102 and has since had the 102 dropped.
Also in Brooklyn we have 22nd Ave which has since become Bay Parkway. On the F line, the station signs show the name as 22 Avenue Bay Parkway.
Don't forget Malbone St. on the Brighton line, now Prospect Park. Malbone St. got such a bad reputation after the wreck that they even renamed the street, now Empire Blvd.
-- Ed Sachs
I don't believe there was ever a station named Malbone Street. Its called the Malbone Street Wreck because it occurred in the tunnel directly beneath Malbone Street.
It was always Prospect Park Station, just checked on a Map from Brooklyn Elevateds
The Bronx IRT station with the covered mosaic is 161.
What was it called before/now? If I remember, the top mosaics still had the old initials, but it's been a long time since I've been there.
IIRC:Sutter Avenue(Rutland Road)
Chambers street(Hudson Terminal)
Brianwood(Jamaica Van Wyck)
71(Continental avenue)Forest Hills
Brooklyn Bridge(Worth Street)
71-Continental Avenues has retained that original name since the line was opned in the 30's.
[71-Continental Avenues has retained that original name since the line was opened in the 30's.]
True, but the newest electronic destination sign readings refer only to "Forest Hills / 71 Av" - reflecting the fact that 71st Avenue east of the LIRR becomes Continental Avenue for a short stretch west of the LIRR (between Burns and Ingram Streets in the private enclave of Forest Hills Gardens).
BTW, the same applies to the former "75th/Puritan Avenues" station - the street is 75th Avenue east of the LIRR and Puritan Avenue west of the LIRR (although Puritan changes again and becomes 75th Road when it hits Metropolitan Avenue).
I was referring to the actual station name found on maps and the station itself, not the LCD readings on the R-46s. It would need three cycles for "71st Avenue - Forest Hills - Continental Avenue", so a shorter 2-station cycle was implemented on the LCD's.
F-Van Sicklen now Neptune Ave(stop before W 8)
Worth street was an entirely different station from brooklyn bridge. when bklyn bridge was lengthened, they closed down worth because it was redundant.
No, he's right. The station name after 1962 was officially "Brooklyn Bridge-Worth Street" until 1995, when it again became just Brooklyn Bridge. I remember the old wall tiling stating "Brooklyn Bridge - Worth Street" before the station refit in the late '90s.
Originally, there were three stations: City Hall (one track local service on the loop), Brooklyn Bridge (four track express and local service), and Worth Street (four track, two local stations).
City Hall went out of service in the 40's. Leaving Brooklyn Bridge and Worth Street.
Originally, all IRT east side local platforms held five cars (actually four cars, but the front and rear doors at the ends did not open, so they could fit five). When they lengthened the platforms to 10 car length, there was no room to lengthen Worth Street -- it either would hit Canal Street to the north or Brooklyn Bridge to the south.
The solution was to close Worth Street, and to "relocate" the Brooklyn Bridge platforms to the north. Originally, the south end of the Brooklyn Bridge platforms were curved, and there was no connection to the Nassau Street line at the north end. The new station was named "Brooklyn Bridge-Worth Street".
When they rebuilt the station, however, they changed its name to "Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall." Really, however, it is only Brooklyn Bridge.
The IND station is called River Avenue-161 Street. The mosaics have been exposed and the station is or has been redone.
Because the D is under 161 and stops at River Ave, The 4 is on River Ave
95th Street on the BMT had a added designation of "FORT HAMILTON - BAY RIDGE"
The Astoria BMT also had name changes, concurrent with the renaming of named streets into numbered streets in the early part of the Century.
One notable exception is Astoria Boulevard, which also was known as Hoyt Avenue, Astoria Avenue, 25th Avenue.
That 25th Avenue sign at Astoria Blvd. always floored me. Hoyt Ave. would be 25th Ave, if it was given a number, but Hoyt was one of the few avenues in Astoria that was NOT given a number. Yet the BMT changed the station name anyway to list a non-existent numbered avenue.
Maybe to show the people it was by 25th Ave, BTW Burnside Ave on the Jerome used to say Burnside Ave-NYU
Hoyt Avenue North and South are service roads for the Triborough Bridge Approach/Grand Central Parkway until that hits Astoria Boulevard.
I know. If Hoyt were numbered it would be 25th. But it was never numbered. Yet for many decades the station listed 25th as one of its names.
-Avenue M on the Brighton Line used to be called - Elm Avenue (early 20th Century)
-Neptune Avenue on the Culver Line used to be called - Van Sicklen (1980's?)
If I'm not mistaken, there is a Van Sicklen Street (not to be confused with Van Siclen Avenue) that runs paralell to McDonald Avenue from at least Avenue U. Probably ends at Avenue X where Coney Island YArd is. Had this street continued through, it would be about where the Neptune Avenue station is now, hence "Neptune Ave-Van Sicklen".
Elm Ave(Ave M) runs just north of Ave M at E 16th St)
Elm Ave(Ave M) runs just north of Ave M at E 16th St)
Nope - Elm Avenue is just south of Avenue M at E 16th St
Yup, you are right Elm is just So of M
Yup, you are right Elm is just So of M
Not quite - Elm Ave. comes in from the south of Ave. M, but it hits Ave. M just before the Brighton Line overpass, and ends right there. Presumably, it continued east of where Ave. M is now before the current street system was put into place in Midwood (some time in the 1920's, I believe). The street North of Ave. M at East 16th is Chestnut St., a short stretch of which still exists south of Ave. M between Coney Island Ave. and East 12th St.
subfan
Whoops - make that continued _North_ of Ave. M, if you continued east.
subfan
I was looking at my Brooklyn Street Map and Elm ends just West of the Brighton Line at 15th
Correct - it forms a triangle just east of East 15th, with the west side being East 15th, the north side Ave. M, and the south side Elm Avenue. The point of the triangle is just before the overpass of the Brighton line, which is between East 15th and East 16th.
subfan
Yes, it's also know as "Dorman Square".
Some B9 buses used to terminate there and the roll sign said B9 to Dorman Square.
Some B9s still terminate there - the destinations signs say "East 16th Street / Brighton Line"
subfan
The B9 hasn't terminated there in over a decade. The Dorman Square bus stop in front of the bagel store isn't even there anymore.
Really? I thought it still did sometimes - I guess I may have just assumed it did since the No-U-Turn sign there still says "Except Buses".
subfan
When the B9 terminated at Flatbush Ave-Ave L, the short turns would terminate at the Brighton Line. After the line was extended to Kings Plaza, the short turns terminated at Flatbush & Ave L. Any more of this talk, and I guess we'll be directed to the Bus Talk board!
Yeah, and there's a STOP sign there too that nobody seems to pay any attention to.
I remember many years ago there was a butcher shop between E.16th and 17th and M, that had a huge photo of that area from maybe 1915-1925-ish, that showed the six tracks crossing Avenue M. Wish I had a copy of that photo!
It's been a while since I was in that neighborhood, but doesn't Elm Ave continue from E 16th to Ocean Ave on a diagnol?
--Mark
A small segment north of Avenue M runs from 17th to 18th or from 18th to 19th (I don't recall which).
The street North of Ave. M at East 16th is Chestnut St
You're close, but its Chestnut Avenue.
You are right about Elm ending by the train station.
I also notice that on old maps Ryder Avenue continues past Ocean Pkwy, but about the late 1920's it was changed to Roder Ave. east of Ocean Pkwy, I wonder if that was a misspelling back then that just stuck?
You are correct - it is Chestnut Avenue, with the next street to tht north in that series being Locust Avenue. I also just remembered that a short section of Elm Avenue does, in fact, still exist north of Avenue M, extending from East 17 to East 18th Streets not far from Kolbert (sp.)Park. An interesting point about the street names there - it seems that the avenues there were mostly named after types of trees, in line with the area being _Midwood_ - Locust, Chestnut, and Elm - where does Ryder/Roder fit in? FYI, the only cross streets left from that system that I am aware of are Bay Avenue and Olean Street, each with only a short streach remaining. Just wondering.
subfan
I remember when Olean was a dirt road in the mid 50s
It's not much more now - it extends only for two blocks, between East 24th and East 22nd, with the part betweeen 23rd and 22nd not having any sidewalks - a rarity in NYC.
subfan
It was only 2 block then, and mostly empty lots, that is why as kids we used to play there. We called it the dirt road, most of us did not even know it s real name(1955 or so)
There is a Ryder off of Kings Hwy just West of Flatbush, in fact that is where the onld B 5 and B 7 terminated, or is it Ryder St. 2 streets with the same name only 1-2 milesa apart are confusing, especially for non English Speaking people
Ryder Street is the name of East 39th from Kings Highway to Avenue V.
Ryder Square is the name of the intersection of Flatlands, Utica Avenues and Avenue K.
Ryder Station is the name of the 11234 Post Office at East 45th Street, Flatbush Avenue and Quentin Road, the customer station is on Flatbush between R and Fillmore.
The Ryder Avenue in Midwood is insignificant and I can't imagine that many people giving it as directions. It's far enough away from slightly more significant Ryder Street.
Now Kent Avenue and Kent Street almost intersect.
But they are not insignificant if you live on those streets and are giving directions.
>>> there is a Van Sicklen Street (not to be confused with Van Siclen Avenue) ... Had this street continued through, it would be about where the Neptune Avenue station is now, hence "Neptune Ave-Van Sicklen". <<<
A good theory, but the old name of the station was Van Sicklen Avenue, not Steet, nor "Neptune Ave-Van Sicklen."
Tom
It was Van Something not Neptune
Nope...it's Van Sicklen Street, and the station was Neptune-Van Sicklen. Now it's just Neptune Avenue.
Van Siclen (no "k") Avenue is in a completely different part of town.
David
>>> Nope...it's Van Sicklen Street, and the station was Neptune-Van Sicklen. Now it's just Neptune Avenue. <<<
Perhaps it had different names at different times. The name "Van Sicklen Av" is on the 1948 Subway map which was in the subway cars and stations then and is the one I used when I was railfanning in the early 50s. The 1951 map done by the Telephone Company is the same as the 1948 map. The 1924 BMT map designates the station as "Van Siclen" (without the k). The 1939 BMT map calls it "Van Sicklen." The 1959 map lists the stop as "Van Sicklen (W 5 St)" This seems to be the designation through 1966. The first use of "Neptune-Van Sicklen" that I found was the 1967 map drawn by Michael Adler. The 1978 map lists only "Neptune."
Tom
I Remember it being just Van Sicklen.
In 1915, NYC changed the names of the streets and roads in Queens. To avoid mass confusion among people 2 sets of addresses were allowed on every piece of property. Likewise it also applied to the subway.
That is why there is:
80/Hudson, 88/Boyd, 104/Oxford, 111/Greenwood on the A
103/Alburtis, 69/Fisk, 52/Lincoln, 46/Bliss, 41/Lowery, 33/Rawson on the 7. That explains about the names on the 7 line.
At least Brooklyn kept it's Street Names. It kind of fades all history in Queens with their numbering system that took away all the original street names.
i believe the initials that are refered to in a station are MH - i think this stands for Mott Haven in the Bronx.
I know in Boston that the Prudential T stop was orginally called Mechanics
Chicago has also had its share of station name changes. Forest Park used to be Des Plaines and Rosemont used to be River Road, for a couple recent examples. My "home" station of Berwyn on the Red Line used to be called Edgewater Beach years ago. Edgewater Beach has a much nicer ring to it than Berwyn, but the vast majority of CTA stops within the city are named after the streets at which they're located, and I guess the CTA likes to keep it that way. Merchandise Mart and Medical Center are the only two exceptions I know of inside the city, not counting O'Hare and Midway for obvious reasons.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's the station I was thinking of. 138 St used to be Mott Haven. The mosaic tablet is/was (I wasn't there for a while) covered with a metal sign, with the new name, but the initial MH was still along the ceiling in mosaic.
I meant 149.
No, 138th Street was Mott Haven, 149th-Grand Concourse lower level was known as Mott Avenue. One of the old mosaics is still visible.
I got it. The two Mott's got me mixed up.
Would that also explain the dual names in the Rockaways? I think each number stop on the way to Far Rock has a name street also. And for the few months I lived in the area, I never saw one of those name streets. I think one is called Frank Avenue.
I think the original names where the LIRR station names to the stations. Example "Beach 105th St - Seaside" was just "Seaside" in LIRR days, "Beach 98th St - Playland" was just "Playland", etc. I think they dropped the Arverne, Wavecrest, Seaside, Playland, Holland, etc. now. They are dropped on the map. Are they dropped on the station signs also? Anyone been there lately?
I lived on beach 32 street until Jan 2000, the stations on the Far Rock side, had the second names then. The Rock Pk side has names that do sound like LIRR type names, Playland (how long has that been gone?). But I specficly recall Frank Ave being on one station (as of 1/00) and I never saw a Frank Avenue in my time inthe area. That doesn't sound (to me) like something the LIRR would use.
The LIRR still has Broadway on the Port Washington line, even though it's been known as Northern Boulevard for DECADES.
The stations are:
Beach 25th Street-Wavecrest
36-Edgemere
44-Frank
60-Gaston
67-Straiton
90-Holland
98-Playland
105-Seaside
Of the above, Frank, Gaston, Straiton and Holland are the former names for the numbered streets, the others are names of the places where the stations are.
This is from the Long Island Railroad Timetable dated June 25,1933 Form LI-1.
FAR ROCKAWAY BRANCH
Far Rockaway
Wave Crest
Edgemere (35th St)
Frank Avenue (44th St)
Arverne (Straiton Av,60th St)
Arverne (68th St)
ROCKAWAY BEACH BRANCH
Rockaway Park
Seaside
Playland
Holland
You forgot Hammels!
Was that in the merge of the two lines?
According to the old map around Beach 84 St on the west side of the wye.
Wantaugh was Ridgewood
Island Park was The Dykes (no jokes, please)
Lynbrook was Pearsall's
Richmond Hill was Clarenceville
Rosedale was Foster's Meadow
Floral Park was Hinsdale
I meant "Wantagh"
Wantaugh was Ridgewood
Island Park was The Dykes (no jokes, please)
Lynbrook was Pearsall's
Richmond Hill was Clarenceville
Rosedale was Foster's Meadow
Floral Park was Hinsdale
Was Brentwood ever Modern Times (the village's original name)?
Yes.
lets not forget Nassau on the Oyster bay line. then the people of glen cove were upset and it was renamed glen cove
Hampton Bays was Good Ground
Manorville was St. George's Manor then Manor then ABANDONED.
How about station names that SHOULD be changed? My top five are...
- - -
1. Woodhaven Blvd / Slattery Plaza (G,R)
When this station was being rehabbed, Transit was forced to keep "Slattery Plaza" in the name for historical continuity, AND was precluded from adding "Queens Center Mall" for the same reason, even though Slattery doesn't exist and the mall does.
- - -
2. East 177th Street / Parkchester (6)
East 177th Street was destroyed (along with a few thousand homes) to make room for the Cross Bronx Expressway. "Parkchester" by itself should suffice.
- - -
3. Briarwood / Van Wyck Blvd (E,F)
There isn't any Van Wyck Blvd. How about "Briarwood / Main Street"?
- - -
4. Northern Blvd (G,R)
This station, on Broadway AT Northern, is often confused with 36th Street station, which is ON Northern. I'd go with "54th Street," which is in keeping with the 46th Street and 65th Street stations on either side of it.
- - -
5. Rockaway Blvd (A)
There are too many stations named "Rockaway" - especially away from the Rockaway Peninsula, on a line that goes TO the Rockaway Peninsula! I'd go with either "Woodhaven Blvd" or "Cross Bay Blvd" - or maybe even "Woodhaven/Cross Bay."
3. Well, Main street technically ends there, and when most people think of Main Street, they think of Flushing, so it could get confusing with 2 Main St. stations.
2 Different Lines at main St, remember there are 3 Kings Highway Stations, 3 Bay Parkway Stations in Brooklyn and nobody gets them confused
the asoria line also has the names of the original street names before they were converted to numbers - such as 'grand av' & 'beebe av'.
Some of the station signs still have these names, but they are no longer on the Map.
Don't forget 138th St. (Mott Haven) on the 4/5.
Don't forget 149 St-Grand Concourse (lower level station for the 2, 5)
It was originally "Mott Avenue". In fact one large mosaic name tablet remains uncovered by metal signage(I don't know why but I hope it always stays uncovered).
For anyone who has never seen it, the tablet is between the last 2 staircases (at the north end) on the downtown platform.
The MH's are still there, IIRC.
138th is the Street Mott haven the Neighborhood
Yeah, but the station used to be called "Mott Haven"
138-Mott Haven Street Name and Neighborhood name. Check old maps from the 20s
Under the metal signs the mosaics just say, "Mott Haven". The map in "Under the Sidewalks of New York" just says Mott Haven.
Van Wyck Blvd. on the (E)(F) has been more or less officially changed to "Briarwood-Van Wyck". However the IND wall tile still reads "Van Wyck Blvd". High time this wall were revamped (it's in lousy shape anyway) and updated. Van Wyck Blvd hasn't even existed for decades.
:-) Andrew
And when the station opened there was no Main Street there either.
That's not true. Van Wyck Boulevard became the Van Wyck Expressway (courtesy of Robert Moses). Main Street predated the highway and the IND Line.
I guess it all depends on when did Main Street reach Queens Blvd. I have a 1916 sheet map of the 5 boros that says Main St ran from Northern Blvd to just past where Queens College is now. Maybe there was another road that was at Queens Blvd over there. It was connected to Main later on.
That's not true. Van Wyck Boulevard became the Van Wyck Expressway (courtesy of Robert Moses). Main Street predated the highway and the IND Line.
It is true, Main Street does not predate the highway, it was extended to Queens Boulevard courtesy of Robert Moses.
Then what were the northern termini of Van Wyck Boulevard?
- Lyle Goldman
While looking at a city map of 1926 ( I found it!) it looks like Queens Blvd. The map also didn't have a Main St over there. Not even a road with another name. Just the usual streets there. There wasn't a curved road there as Main St now has from the Grand Central to Queens Blvd. I don't think Main St as we know it now make its way to Queens Blvd until Van Wyck Blvd became an Expressway. I think that was the mid to late 1930's.
The Van Wyck Expressway was built in 1949 from Idlewild to the Kew Gardens Interchange. In 1964 it was extended to Northern Boulevard to connect with the south end of the Whitestone Parkway, which was rebuilt into the Whitestone Expressway.
The south end of the Whitestone Parkway was at the Grand Central Parkway. The section between the Van Wyck Expressway extension and the Grand Central Parkway doesn't (AFAIK) have a name anymore; it's the jumble of ramps over Northern Boulevard near Shea Stadium.
Grand Central Pkwy changed to Jackie Robinson Pkwy in East NY
You mean the Interboro Parkway, don't you? GCP is still GCP along it's whole route, AFAIK.
Correct Interboro
So when was Main St built and brought down to Queens Blvd and the Van Wyck?
I think it was somewhere around 1952 when the original Van Wyck south of Kew Gardens was built. Before that, Main Street's south terminus was at the Grand Central before it was reconstructed into the cantilevered section we know today. That was done for the 1964-65 World's Fair.
That's why Main Street seems to flow seemlessly into the Van Wyck through two underpasses under Manton Street and Queens Boulevard right where the extended entrance tunnel between the boulevard and the subway is. The odd exit configuration dates back to when the station opened in 1937 and predates the expressway by some fifteen years, but it's almost as if its construction was anticipated.
The IND ROW detours off Queens Boulevard to run due south under the Van Wyck franchise for several blocks before turning due east on Hillside Avenue. This was in preparation for an expected southerly extension of the subway in the middle of the future expressway to the future Idlewild Airport. Of course Robert Moses made sure NO transit line would EVER share territory with one of his highways!
A slight vestige of this aborted plan lives on in the connection from the Queens IND to Archer Avenue.
Thank you. Now, what was the southern terminus of Van Wyck Boulevard, and did it follow the same path as the current Van Wyck Expressway?
- Lyle Goldman
I think they dropped the Forest Parkway on the J also. It's gone on the map, but I don't know if the sign in the station reflects this.
The signs still have "Forest Parkway" on them.
Lefferts Boulevard at the end of the A line was Lefferts Avenue.
same name, they just upgraded it from Ave to Blvd
Another one.
Seneca Avenue on the M was called "Covert" Avenue, It may however been called that, when it was still running at ground level. I'm not sure.
Wilson Ave in Brooklyn was a German Name and was changed during WWI
Hamburg Avenue.
Hmm... Hamburger Avenue (drools)
Thanks I was not sure which, Hamburg or Frankfurt. My dad used to tell me stories about that. In WWI they changed the name of Sour Kraut to Victory Cabbage on the Lower EastV Side
There is a way to get the J/Z to run express in manhattan and all that is needed is to fix up 3 stations, knock down a wall, and reconfigure the tracks by doing this, the J/Z can run express into Manhattan to allow for faster service and this time trains can run express in both directions. There are 3 options, Option #1, Option #2, and Option #3
I think each one has both their pro's and cons, check each one and see what you think. I know you might hate all or might like 1, tell why.
Interesting ideas, however how do you propose to use Manhattan Bridge south side tracks? Construct a flying junction with the BMT Broadway Line?
In any event, you know that ridership levels do not warrant a express service in Manhattan, for 3 or 4 stations.
I like the idea of expansion, but I don't see any time saved by using all four tracks, because there are no skipped stations. I don't know what the original plan as built was for that line, because it seems like all express stations and no local stations. (Canal's stub tracks went through to somewhere I believe at one time. I don't know when that was sealed off.) I know there were Manhattan bridge services at Chambers Street, but that doesn't explain why Canal and Bowery have four tracks.
Anyway, in it's unfuturistic planning, I think the TA is going to abandon the NB platforms at Bowery and Canal ST. I don't know what they have planned for Chambers St, but that station is a total disaster right now.
Way to much time on your hands,dude.........
Its raining so sue me
Option 1:Good but it would require alot of construction.
Option 2:Again good.But you're only skipping 1 stop.
Option 3:No need for the extra line.
All possible ideas. But I wonder about the need for express J/Z service in Manhattan. I think the reaility is that people actually need the current stops and that eliminating them with an express service would get a negative vote from commuters.
I don't know if Delancy/Essex is a good choice for a skiped station, seeing as it is the one with the transfer to the (F). That one and Canal are probably the most important stations on the Manhattan part of that line.
:-) Andrew
Fulton is also important.
I dunno that we need express service in Manhattan. As to Chambers, someone posted that its a mess right now. Maybe so, but it's an awsome complex that really ought to be preserved. If the TA really wants to cut down to 2 tracks with one island platform, it should use the side that abuts the Lex. Use the other three island platforms, their tracks, and the remaining side platform as the Manhattan Branch of the transit Museum. They, got the room, the easy connect to the rest of the system for getting display trains in, and a beautiful station to show it off in. In downtown Manhattan, instead of downtown Brooklyn. (And not in some ugly IND station.)
Chambers Street must have been a great station in it's day. The tall ceilings make it seem more than a subway station. The one side platform is a great work of art, if it wasn't let to go to hell. (The other side platform is destroyed and part of the Lexington's Brooklyn Bridge station.) The station, however is in a total state of disrepair. I hope they clean it up, but I don't know what they have planned for it. I don't think they are planning to abandon any platforms, like they are planning at Bowery and Canal Street.
look dude,i love the way your mind thinks.your always looking for the solutions to what you see as problems and bottlenecks.keep it up ,one day thosae ideas will pay off.
NYCT seems to be trying to get the news out, This AM I saw a poster in Polish detailing the G Line Changes. There is also I brochure in English and Spanish detailing the G Line changes which include service to Forest Hills 830 pm to 5am weekdays and all day on weekends.
The handouts and the posters are out and people can see them. But will people actually read them?
I don't think so.
Monday, December 17 when the changes go ito effect for the first working day, There will be mass confusion. there will be alot of people that will swear upon anything you offer them that "I Didn't See No Notices!". Even if walls are plastered with posters and D.I.B. announce it in big clear letters in multi-colours. PEOPLE WILL NOT "SEE" IT!. They will notice I spelled color with a "U" But will not see the rest of the message. And if by chance they do notice it, they'll be asking questions.
I'd like to be proven wrong on this. But experience tells me it will happen. On that week I plan to take as a V/R assignment anything except Queens and 6 Ave.
Do yourself a favor: stay off the Queens IND for the entire pick. Period. You will spend excessive time in the cab as well due to lateness caused by massive congestion at Queens Plaza..
I don't work in a cab. I work in a token booth. I'd be answering questions all day long 8 hours a day for several weeks.
All this time, I thought you worked The Beast with a handle of douce man. So sorry to put you in that club.
The only Beasts I have are angry customers outside the booth when there is a blockage.
I stand corrected. But my suggestion of staying away from the Queens IND still applies!
I intend to stay away from there for a few months.
I was at Canal (BMT Broadway) Saturday Night. As required I was weawring and orange vest. Many people walked by cussing at "Stuipidity of Transit Workers" and having no signs on the lower platforms and "no trains for an hour". This was right at 10pm when the G.O. just started and yeah- the platforms were full of signs. I started walking towards the J. In a loud carrying voice I started telling them no Service on these platforms and go upstairs. They still just stood there!
hey, what'd you expect...you think the general riding public is that smart...They're just a bit slow...or then some...
Maybe they can not read English, after all it is Chinatown
Signs up, annoucements made and repeated and people didn't listen. You've proved my point.
Were annoucements made on the PA?
Well, they could have warned us ahead of time, couldn't they?
- Lyle Goldman
There were signs up ahead of time. I don't know how far in advance this change was planned.
The changes on the G were annouced several months ago. It's been only the past 2 weeks a definate date was made.
We were discussing the Q via tunnel Saturday night (specifically at Canal Street, where that bumps trains to a different platform than usual).
When signs are posted and annoucements are made and repeated and people still don't realise after 20+ minutes that the trains are not running, I'll be kind to them. I'll say they don't believe what they saw and heard.
I just love the way they come up to the booth and point to a subway map that there should be a certain subway. Then I'll point to a poster that I put in the booth window in front of them to see and read. Then they'll ask me why I didn't tell them what was going on when there were enough posters up to wall paper a room.
December 17th is going to be FUN. I mean that in a sarcastic way!
You want my job? I am a doctor, and I tell some of my patients that they are not sick, and they refuse to believe me. Others who are sick, when I tell them, they do not believe me. You just cannot win sometimes. When I retire, I will be happier than a well camoflaged peeping tom in a lesbian nudist camp.
Damned if you do
Damned if you don't
Damned for G.P.
Speaking of the G Line, I may be on the way over to 36th St next week, to man the booth for a week. I got promoted to Vacation Relief and start on 12/2 (gotta check those sheets). Ain't that great? Maybe I'll run in to you somewhere.
Everyone will be asking about the V and new maps, so on and so forth.
-Stef
Give my regards to Joan "The Lady In Red" Bates!
Hey, does anyone have any routes or cars based on the NY Subway?....I bought myself a copy of Microsoft Train Simulator and I just wanted to make it even better with an NYC Subway route!
I created sevral nyc subway objects, reskin cars , and working on routes.
you can download the objects and cars at my site:
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/mstsdownloads.htm
here's the following routes I'm working on.
Flushing route
50 % complete
Culver Route
90 % Complete
Brighton Line & coney island yard
30 % complete
Franklin Shuttle
Future project Dec 2001
West End Line
Future project 2002
42nd st shuttle
50% Complete
come to msts MTA
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/_whatsnew.msnw
So let me get this straight....
From 8:30 - midnight weekdays there will be 5 trains running on the line. E,F - express and G,R,V on the local.
Ugh the local will be backed up probably around 63 Drive. I hope it works out, but I can see some problems with that.
=)
If I remember correctly, the G trains will be ending at Court Sq, so it'll only be the E, F (express), and V, R (local) on Queens Boulevard.
No, there is a period of the evening where the V and G overlap and do run together.
From About 6:00am to 8:30pm the R&V will be local and the E&F will be express. From 8:30pm to 6:00am the G&R will be local and the E&F will be express. Late night the E&G will be local, the F Express amd the R shuttle in Brooklyn. Weekend 6:00am to 10:30 the G&R local and the E&F are Express. 10:30pm to 6:00am E&G Local, the F express And R shuttle in Brooklyn.
F are going to run though 63rd street cut.
E are going to run though 53rd street cut.
G run from Court steet to Smith and 9th all that the V are running. Also G will run to Church Ave on the Weekends from 71street. (All OPTO on Weekends unless a G.O. puts a C/R on board.) Free Transfers with M/C from Court Sq to the 7 line.
V Weekdays only from 6:00am to 8:30pm.
R are running though 60th street cut as always.
Time are just a guess so DON'T hold me to them. For the right time get the new handout that just came out.
Robert
Of course if you wanted to be really cheap and go to court sq for lunch or somethin, if you're in manhattan, F to the G to court sq. Then eat, then take the 7 back home, all for one ride! :-)
From 11:00PM to 5:00AM, the R does not run on Queens Blvd. The G will.
It remains to be seen if both the E and F, which run local during overnight hours, will continue to run local. One service should serve express, you do not need three lines making all stops on Queens Blvd. during overnight hours.
The F will be Queens Blvd. Express 24/7.
The F will be Queens Blvd. Express 24/7.
--------------------------------------------------------------
So Queens will have express service 24/7? Somehow I don't see that happening. But then again, if it's express from Roosevelt to Continental only, it could happen, as the TA likes to underserve that section of Queens.
In fact, I had predicted that Queens Blvd would eventually lose all express service on weekends by the year 2003. 24/7 express service would shock me.
Be prepared to be shocked.
R trains do not finish service in Queens until around 12:15 am.
Thats way I said that the times a nit exect.
Robert
> a nit exect
What is that supposed to be? Some kind of accent?
- Lyle Goldman
I have the handout right in front of me. It says, "The V operates weekdays, 6 AM to midnight," and "G service is extended to Forest Hills-71 Av 8:30 PM to 5 AM weeknights." It looks like the V and G trains do overlap.
- Lyle Goldman
I guess then the congestion that people feared about during the rush hour will happen after 8:30 PM. One train after another and as long as no delay happens, people will probably complain about too much G, V and R service. And that's not taking into account what time the E starts tunning local.
By the time the E starts running local, the R & V will be finished running for the nite. Presumably, the extra G trains required for extended evening service will be 2 or 3 R/V layups cut 4x4 on the relay tracks at Continental. The problem will be coming north into Continental. It will be a dispatching nightmare while all 3 services are running weeknights. Some trains will have to relay for another trip, and at the same time they have to layup b/o trains and inspection cars to the yard. I hope they have enough switchmen. The trains will be arriving so late, that every train will have to be double ended for it to leave on time, yet the switchmen will be needed for layups to Jamaica Yard.
Believe me since they hired all the new train operators recently, and even more coming out, trust me they will be able to scrounge up enough to cover the switchman's duties at Continental, but as how things frequently go in the Queens Division, things are gonna be a nightmare as far as E,F,G,R and V services co-existing together on a stretch of railroad already plagued by massive delays. I think this V thing with all the mess currently existing on the Queens Division, is a bad idea and should be put off a bit longer until they can correct existing troubles on the Queens Division are far as getting things to run smoothly with just the E,F,G, and R running there. Bad news is I dunno what I was thinking when I decided to pick Extra List Queens PM for the next pick!! :-P I'll be at the center of the storm!!
Perhaps a handle change is in order. Maybe R Queens Blvd Local? :-)
Like I should talk. I go by BMT Road Dogg and all I work is the A and the C. I don't even remember the last time I worked the BMT lines.
Yeah. Wsup wit dat?
Then again, you've got a decent thing going there on the A/C. Why chance it?
Ya know, Z, every once in a while, you and I see eye to eye on something.
Let's not make this a habit. LOL
I promise not to make it a habit. Too much of this could result in the repolarization of the 423rd Space continuum as well as remanufacturing the potential bio-chemical reconstructive terms of mathematics based on social stratification in which thus thou would base the hypothesis on the psychological conglomeratory thesis.
I think that I've had a bit too much Pepsi today.
I'll have two of those with a side order of fries!
Hold the Mayo.
avid
Sounds to me like to much COKE.
When you find out, let me know what you were thinking when you decided to go PM XL Queens. Hope you enjoy getting home at 2 am.
Three words of advice when you get home: Nick at Nite.
The G and the V will not be running together at the same time. Locals will be backing up around 63 Drive. It'll all depend on how fast crews can empty trains and a switchman can get in and get the train out of there.
Probably TA will have R and/or V trains go all the way to 179 St. It will avoid people changing at 71 Ave and causing crowds there.
The work programs do not have any G or R or V trains terminating at 179.
I know. I know. But people will be wishing for it. TA will hear from them.
There is a car shortage. The TA will be hard pressed to provide sufficient cars to provide full scheduled service as it is to Continental.
I believe you. But try telling that to a mezzazine full of people when they are told there is a delay in service because the train are running late. especially after the train was between 67 and 71 Aves stations for 5-8 minutes.
is there a car shorage because field shunting was removed?
I seriously doubt that. The removal of Field Shunting served to slow down the trains. So, if anything, the removal of Field Shunting would reduce the number of Trains Per Hour needed, thus reducing the seriousness of any car shortage.
I believe the car shortage started in the early 1990's due mainly to the removal of the R-10, R-27, and R-30 cars. Increased ridership over the years didn't help matters much, either.
- Lyle Goldman
I diagree with your logic. If the trains are slowed down, it takes longer for a trainset to make a round trip. If it takes longer to make a round trip, you need additional trainsets. If you previously had a car shortage, coupled to slowing down the trains, now your car shortage is more severe than before. Unless I'm missing something!
Thats what I was thinking,if the trains were slowed down by field shunting remova,it would take longer to reach the terminial,in which more cars would be needed to keep up with a 3-5 min schedule[rush] and 5-10[midday].......just wondering,but how do you over come that problem[if there is one]with out buying new cars? Rob PETER to pay Paul?
You're right. I don't know what I was thinking. I guess it was late at night.
- Lyle Goldman
The remaining R10, 16, 27, and half the R30's were replaced by R68's.
The GOH R30's represent a net loss and a mistake to be compensated by the R143.
Why did they trash the R-30's without replacing them?
- Lyle Goldman
Ridership had dropped. Little did the TA know it would rebound over the following decade.
Also the MTA in the early 1990s wanted to tout an all-air conditioned fleet for the IND and BMT and the extra weight of the AC-retrofits on the R-30s supposedly would have made the cars too heavy. so the combination of lower ridership and non-ACed cars resulted in the decision to scrap and not just mothball the R-30s.
Had they mothballed the best 46 of them, which was doen for a short while in Pitkin, they could ultimately have put 2 in every J/Z R42 consist, expounding on the concept of the single car on the Flushing line. It would have been a minor annoyance for 3 months of the year.
Apparently they will. The G service to CTL will start around 8:30 pm and the V service isn't scheduled to end until Midnight. Boy, I'm glad that I don't work PM's anymore.
Lets hold off on this thought until 12/17 the first working day of this change goes into effect. We'll be talking theory until then and we should see what TA will actually do.
Oh I already know what the TA's doing. I've seen the schedules. I'm just wondering how long it's gonna last.
It won't be so bad, headways will be increasing by then.
And people kept asking me why I took Bs out of Concourse instead of Rs from 95. I could see that Queens Blvd was a place to be avoided this upcoming pick.
Oh yeah, like sure. We all know that you missed commuting to The Bronx.
I may be wrong in saying this but if I'm right, the E Train will probably become the most crowded train in the history of the MTA. I don't believe that passengers are going to walk outside when the weather is bad, particularly when it's 4 blocks followed by at least three long flights of stairs. Lexington riders would probably favor the transfer at 53rd and Lex over the transfer to the F at 59th. Heading to/from Queens, they'll try to avoid the V, because it's a local. This whole thing could get ugly.
No, Q Exp, you're not wrong. The E is going to become the most crowded line in the B Division. First of all, instead of there being two Queens Blvd Expresses along 53rd St., there will only be one. Do you honestly think that people will use the V if they live in Forest Hills or Jamaica? I think not. Plus, for the first couple of weeks, all people need to hear is that the next stop on the F will be 21st St., and there will be a mad dash to exit that train and wait for the E, which didn't change.
What I think they should have done was ran the V through the connector and kept the F on 53rd St. When the V isn't running nights and weekends, then run the F through there. The E should be able to handle the night and weekend crowds alone.
I was wondering..before the Broadway BMT was connected to the 63rd Street Tunnel, did the center express tracks end at bumper blocks in the 57th Street station? Did they continue any distance beyond the station? If so, was there capacity to store and/or turn trains beyond the station?
Or were they like the tracks at the west end of the Times Square #7 line?
On a similar note, when did they build the turnout from the Queens Blvd. IND to the Archer Tunnel? Was it done in the 1980s, or at the early stages of the project, in the early 70s? Or, was it always there, as a provision for expansion?
My reccollections are
1. 57&7th no bumper blocks. there were short 'relay' tracks when built, then when the 60th Street connection to Queens was added, changes were made.
2 The Archer 'turn off' was done in existing 'bellmouths' originally destined for 'Second System' expansion.
See the second system section on this site
Thank You.
At 57/7 there was were bumper blocks for the provision for a connection for somewhere. This was in the early 1920's. Supposively it was for a BMT line going up the Upper West Side. When the connection was built to the 63St Tunnel, it was connected only to the express track. It probably didn't go too far past the station. I don't think there were tracks there. And I doubt if it could have turned trains there.
The ramp after Van Wyck Blvd was a provision for a line going down Van Wyck. IND 2nd system. Built in the 1930's. I'd like to think it would have gone to JFK. But it probably would have gone down to meet an extentation of the Liberty Ave Line or the Jamaica Ave line. Or whatever was going east in that area. I don't have the IND proposal map with me at the moment.
Actually,the present Jamaica VanWyck station was part of the original IND system in concept,as some early maps have that station under a differnt name as a branch along with the branch to what was then known as 178th street.So if things went as planned,there would have been two branches to Jamaica from 1936........
Actually,the present Jamaica VanWyck station was part of the original IND system in concept,as some early maps have that station under a differnt name as a branch along with the branch to what was then known as 178th street.So if things went as planned,there would have been two branches to Jamaica from 1936........IF THERE IS SOME DOUTE,There is a map at the TRANSIT MUSEUM with this routing layed out for all to see........
it should go to JFK who wants to use airtrain? subway it better and i don't belive there will be a free transfer. Also more different kinds of transit you have the harder it is to replace or upgrade. what happens if the company that built the airtrain cars went broke and the cars were broken. what would you do?
the more compatability the better.
In the 30s the only airport in Queens was the current LaGuardia, swamp where JFK is now
When did Anderson Airport open up?
I think if there had been a line built down Van Wyck Blvd. Maybe there might be a connection to what is now the airport now.
you could build it over the VanWick express way go to *ell Robert MOses
On the Subject:
The stations on the 63rd Street connection: Lexington and Roosevelt Island are really Island platforms with a wall down the middle. I think that was a provision for the 2nd Ave subway in the original grand scheme of things.
- Are there plans to utilize those platforms as island platforms in the new plans for the 2nd Avenue subway?
- Are the trackways that run on the other side of the wall usable and what do they currently connect to?
Lexington Avenue-63rd Street consists of two island platforms, one over the other, with false walls turning them into two side platforms. However, Roosevelt Island is a true side platform station.
David
The wall on the 63rd line at Lex separates the line to Queens from the line that curves north for the fabled 2nd Ave line. I don't know that there is anything behind the walls at Roosevelt Island but rock.
The vacant tubes for the fabled L.I.R.R to G.C.T. should be below the subway tracks at this point.
The old Express and local tracks north of 57th St. were to run under Central Park to Morningside Heights and eventually invade the Bronx.
The 60th St. Tunnel took the wye, the 63rd tunnel and the fabled 2nd Ave took the express. This line, the Express must make a diamond switch to go to Queens, else it goes to the vacant station behind the wall at Lex then to the Fabled 2nd Ave line north.
It would be nice if the Local tracks north from 57th could continue under Central Park, gradually edging westerly towards CPW. The locals could then duck under the CPW row and rise up utilizing the layup tracks between 72nd and 81st st. Stations and merging with the Eigth Ave. The beauty part of this is the options of connecting to the local or express tracks on each level. North bound on the upper level and the lower level to accept south bound local or express service.
It would give flexibility to both the Eigth Ave and Broadway lines.
avid
"It would be nice if the Local tracks north from 57th could continue under Central Park, gradually edging westerly towards CPW. The locals could then duck under the CPW row and rise up utilizing the layup tracks between 72nd and 81st st. Stations and merging with the Eighth Ave."
Using the layup tracks certainly is an amazing idea, and if one could actually build it, it would be one of the greatest engineering feats in the system.
You have uptown trains on the upper level, and downtown trains on the lower level under CPW. A section cut looking uptown taken through the region between 72nd and 81st Street stations would look like:
+======CPW=====+""""""""""""
+----+----+----+
| UL | UM | UE |
+----+----+----+ EAST --->
| DL | DM | DE |
+----+----+----+
By boring a tunnel from the downtown Broadway local tracks at 57th Street to the downtown 8th Avenue layup track, you can send downtown 8th Avenue (express or local) down Broadway instead of down 8th or 6th Avenue.
However, if you look at the above schematic, you will notice that there is insufficient space between the uptown and downtown levels, and between the uptown and street levels, to connect a line to a tunnel heading to 57th Street.
While the downtown tunnel can come up from beneath both layers, the uptown tunnel cannot come up or down to connect to the uptown layup track.
There are only two resolutions: 1) a crossover on the uptown level, or 2) connect only to the express tracks.
At $1 billion a mile (or more in this case), I am not sure if such a connection is worth the expense. Yes, it's nifty, and adds some flexibility.
I am uncertain there is a ridership demand for 8th Avenue patrons wanting to head down the Broadway line. After all, they can transfer at 34th Street, and the 6th Avenue line closely follows the route of the Broadway line.
It is a brilliant concept, but unless transit funding starts to grow on trees, I see it being a relatively low priority for the MTA, in light of other more pressing service needs.
MATT-2AV
The beauty part of this is the options of connecting to the local or express tracks on each level.
North bound on the upper level and the lower level to accept south bound local or express service.
It would give flexibility to both the Eigth Ave and Broadway lines.
price fixing, mafia, there must be a task force on contractor fraud. then it would be much cheaper. or you have to have connections or better yet the MTA should have a concreate manufactring plant wholy owned by it.
"price fixing, mafia, there must be a task force on contractor fraud."
And then we all wake up.
Seriously, tunneling is expensive and dangerous. It always has been, and it always will be. The cost of concrete is nothing.
There are lots of factors that lead to the high cost of construction, but I don't think anyone wants to return to the bad old days when human life had no value -- even if it meant subway tunnels could be built cheaper and faster.
Even the IND second system was considered to be very expensive for it's day.
MATT-2AV
Buy a boaring machine, program it with your Palm or Pocket PC, come back in 30 days and ya got ya self a tunnel. The mta should buy all the equipment needed not hire corrpted contractors. Oh yahh remember that the 63st tunnel was built with bluestone (imitation concrete), the MTA inspectors came okayed the concrete and when the inspectors left the trucks left and took the real concrete somewhere else, while the tunnel was filled with imitation bluestone (read it in I belive Subway (revised version of "uptown, downtown))
[Buy a boaring machine]
I'll bet that "American Pig" knows what that is but it comes to me as a surprise that you do.
Arti
I fell asleep the last time I looked at a boring machine.
"Buy a boaring machine, program it with your Palm or Pocket PC, come back in 30 days and ya got ya self a tunnel."
That's pretty good! I'm ROTFLOL!!!
Pardon my sarcasm, but if I want to put a man in orbit around the Earth, all I need is a giant metal tube, filled with explosives, and some guy in a nosecone with a parachute, right?
Of course a boring machine would be required, and they are generally used only once, as they cannot reverse direction. After construction is completed, an extra tunnel stub is completed, where they are walled up and abandoned in place.
Too bad reality is a bit different than your claim. Tunnels don't build themselves, even with a TBM. How are you going to make the connection to the Broadway BMT and 8th Avenue IND lines? The Pocket PC doesn't do take care of that. You'll need extensive underpinning, sequencing & phasing, demolition if existing structure, and hand construction.
The final phase of the 63rd Street connector cost $1.5 billion. I estimate this connector would cost about $2.5 to $3 billion.
It doesn't matter what it should cost. It only matters what it will cost.
MATT-2AV
If all you need is a boring machine to build a tunnel, I have one in my bedroom. It's a Pentium 133. It's a really boring machine.
Its a good thing you cleared that up by identifying you your processor, I was afraid you were bragging or something like that!
avid
It a good thing tunnels don't build themselves, otherwise I'm wasting my time trying to get a civil engineering degree!
I heard this story once:
A group of engineers went to Israel to see a new tunnel building method they have heard about.
When they got there heres what they were told:
Do you use lasers to align the tunnel, GPS, computers or a combination of those?
Vell, vhat we do is Schlomos crew starts digging from that side of the river. Moshes crew starts digging from this side of the river, and hopefully they vill meet in the middle.
But what if they dont meet?
Vell then ve got two tunnels!
I CAN DIG IT"
Vell, speaking of tunnels, or better, imaginery tunnels....The Israel government's finance committee approved, day before yesterday, the sending out of bids for construction of the Tel Aviv subway. The transportation minister said that the proposed project "has reached the point of no return". Mind you, the Tel Aviv subway has been proposed since pre-state days, 1946. Vell....ve'll see vat gets built first, New York's 2nd Av. subway or Tel Aviv's subvey. On a good note, Israel's railways are thriving, ridership is up 10% over last year, new stations are opening, and there are what I believe to be serious expansion plans to the large coastal towns of Bat Yam and Rishon LeZiyyon and extension to Ashqelon on the south coast. Now if they would only extend it to Elat.....
Now if they would only extend it to Elat.....
Across the moonscape of that Wilderness down from Beersheeba? What is it? Mitzpe Ramon?
Actually, next time I do Jerusalem, I want to take the train from BenGurion.
Israel is about the size and shape of Vermont. Tel Aviv to Samaria is about Javits Center to 71st-Continental. BenGurion to Jerusalem is 20-some minutes by freeway. Think about it. Taliban-types with weapons of mass destruction in Flushing. We'd all be justifiably paranoid.
I've been to Mitzpe Ramon. Boring little village. Gorgeous crator! (the latter being Makhtesh Ramon.)
:) Andrew
I've been to Mitzpe Ramon. Boring little village. Gorgeous crator! (the latter being Makhtesh Ramon.)
I misspell too. Crater or krater.
You drive your car down the escarpment (and, apparently, that's the word) into a (word I don't have for this geological thingy) Nevada type stretched-out bit of geology. A moonscape.
Ah. The bit when you cross the creek that flows thru it, and look at the well-Englished sign about serious flash-floods.
I was thinking of the Winderness of Paran, and that confusing scripture (Genesis 21:21).
I've been to Mitzpe Ramon. Boring little village. Gorgeous crator! (the latter being Makhtesh Ramon.)
I misspell too. Crater or krater.
"Kh" is recognized as the proper translitteration of the Hebrew letter Khaf, or Chaf as you might have said. It distinguishes the gutteral sound from the "ch" we know in English, and also from the softer sound made by a het, which would be represented by an "H" with a dot under it.
:-) Andrew
Good going MisterK! I thought I was the only one who knew about the correct spellings and explanations for them. Actually, the rules of Hebrew transliteration have been made by the Hebrew Language Academy of Israel, the ultimate authority of the Hebrew Language. As I say, good going! But, according to HLA rules, he did misspell Mizpe Ramon. The zaddiq, pronounced the same as the "z" of Italian and German, is to be transliterated merely as "z", or for precision and to distinguish from the letter zayin, z with a short underline. Happily, these transliteration rules are followed on all serious atlases (Survey of Israel, Oxford, Hammond, Rand-McNally, etc.).
Actually, the rules of Hebrew transliteration have been made by the Hebrew Language Academy of Israel, the ultimate authority of the Hebrew Language.
Of Modern Hebrew, that is.
The transliteration rules apply to all Hebrew. The resurrecting of old words, building new ones from Scriptual roots, etc., adopting words from other languages and adapting them to Hebrew, grammatical rules, etc., all fall under that one roof.
I'm disputing your claim that the HLA is "the ultimate authority of the Hebrew Language." The HLA is not the ultimate authority of the Hebrew used in the Bible. The HLA is not the ultimate authority of Mishnaic Hebrew. Etc.
(I would argue, in fact, that the HLA might attempt to maintain authority over Modern Hebrew, but in fact the only body with actual authority over any spoken language is its speakers.)
I understand now what you had in mind. I have no disagreement with you on any of those points.
One place where these rules wouldn't apply is with Ashkenazic Hebrew, where the letters are pronounced more or less like they are in Yiddish.
:-) Andrew
"The next time I do Jerusalem, I want to take the train from Ben Gurion." There is no such line now. As far as I know, no proposal of direct service, either. Hopefully in our lifetimes. As in Fiddler on the Roof "Be happy, be healthy, long life!"
Following stories in Ha'aretz, it seems to be in the works. The quarrel is over the exact alignment up into Jerusalem. There would be a station at Ben Gurion, as I recall.
That's correct. But the current transportation minister has sent the plans drawn up under the previous administration back to the drawing board. Seems they were too modern for him....
You could rebuild the uptown express tracks to the east a few hundred feet, under central park in order to create some space for the connecting track to come between the uptown local and express track.
Yeah, that's the only way you could do it. I think. You'd need to extend the subway about 20 or so feet to the east. It's not impossible.
My question is: what priority does it have, in light of other transit needs in the City?
MATT-2AV
Consider this:
+======cpw=====+"""""""""""
+----+----+----+
| ul | um + ue |
+----|----+----+
| dl | dm | de |
+----+----+----+
|rock|ubwy|rock|
|rock+----+rock|
|rock|dbwy|rock|
|rock+----+rock|
Both levels come up from below. The uptown middle will rise two levels.
If the distance allows, the downtown middle will only have to rise one level.
I don't think distance will allow. It's only 9 blocks, and you have the problem of the uptown and downtown lines needing to rise in opposite directions. The downtown line must rise one level to the south. That's okay. But the uptown line must rise two levels to the north in the same space. That's going to be pretty tricky, if not impossible.
MATT-2AV
Not so!
The uptown middle track will rise and have the option of turnout to the right for express, or turn out to the left for local service.
The downtown middle service will have the option to ACCEPT traffic FROM the downtown Express on the right, or ACCEPT trafic FROM the downtown local on the Left.
So the Uptown ramp would be above the downtown ramp. The ramps wpuld have the same directional angle.
Example for distance: The decension of the Rockaway "A" train to fly under the Lefferts track. It does this in the space of less then one 600ft train length. Thats a Loooooong Layup track. I don't know its exact length, but its a very good portion of the distance from 72nd to 81st St.
Both ramps will rise from the bowels of the earths mantle. Wittness the anlge of the "N" and "W" trains as they approach Queens Boro Plaza. Take another look. The uptown ram will come up through the Downton Layup. continue rising and then approach the wye.
The downtown wye will immeadiately start down and as it gets below the downtown level turn to the left to allow the uptown Bway access to the ramp.
avid
Yes so!
You're right.
Sorry 'bout that.
It is a long layup track, so I guess it is possible.
My main question is: is it really necessary?
MATT-2AV
Consider the Manhattan bridge Flip of last summer. The "B"&"D" trains wouln't have to hae been Sectionalized into the the "W" and Diamond Q and Circle Q.
Some other 6th Ave Express, perhaps a "K" could have been instituted.
It may have found or served some short term use after the attack on Sept. 11.
The TA used a layup and added a ramp to connect the 63rd St line to the Queens Blvd. line.
Perhaps a single track could be used VIA the layup on the 8th Ave line between Chambers St and Canal between the Express tracks. It could dive under and some how come up between the uptown and downtown tracks near Cortland St.
Better yet dive down from the layup, a single ramp, bidirectional, turning east,(right) towards Broadway. It is hoped this single line could find the lower level layups and be a downtown compliment to the "Central Park connector". Hopefully two way service would needed at the same time. Not for full time service ,but emergency use.
avid
Think way in the future.
The Fabled Second Ave line is built. It has captured some of the "ELs" in the Bronx.
There is a problem. Trains are re-routed from the "ELs" thru the Concourse yard, down Grand Concourse to Eigth Ave and back to B'Way.
Another FLEX-PATH for the system.
avid
And it would have allowed B and D trains from the Bronx to run over the West End and Brighton lines even with the North Side bridge tracks closed.
I wen to Lex/63rd on October 5th and noticed that one of the doors on the lower level had its lock missing and was padlocked from a different location. I peeked through the hole and you can see the short (in width) platform on the other side with the trackways.
There is a platform. I was allowed to take a peek in there while a T/O was entering. The track is the length of the platform. Both levels can lay-up a train each. At the east end of the platform it starts to turn northward when it ends at a stone wall. A connection to the 2nd Ave Subway going north.
I don't know about Roosevelt Island,but I know Lexington Avenue was to be the turnoff point for the 2 Avenue line.Now if only it was built.
At 21/Queensbridge, Roosevelt Island and Lexington/63 There is also supposed to be a lower level for the LIRR going to GCT. Not station stops. But a route.
You're right there are no hidden platforms at Roosevelt Island. I got mixed up.
With the problems airlines are having in attracting passengers, this was Amtrak's chance to lure riders to the train over the busy weekend.
Amtrak just can't catch a break.
I used their train status page to record the on time performance of every NEC train arriving NYP and BOS. Imagine my surprise when I found a number of trains from BOS to WAS and WAS to BOS running 3 to 4 hours late.
I called Amtrak at 11 PM (EST) and found out the reason. There was a freight derailment on the Hell Gate Line (between Harold Interlocking MP 3.7 and the Metro North connection MP 18.9.) The reservation agent was unable to tell me when it happened or the offending train. The offending train took down the catenary and ripped up some rails.
I'm GUESSING this happenned at Oak Yard (not to be confused with Oak Point Yard in New Jersey.) I can't find any info on Amtrak's web page.
I guess Amtrak will be giving out a lot of customer service certficates. These delays will make a mess out of the crews's schedules. Some crews work NYP to BOS instead of NYP to NHV. With the longer trips, these delays could throw some of them on the law. I guess we'll have to wait and read about it in the newspaper.
Michael
Glad I came home on Friday.
1 word:Greyhound
Hmmm. Isn't that really two words?
Or, Metro-North.
it is cheaper than amtrack $88 from NYC to StamfordCT $10 peak 7.50 off peak metro north
Just wait for one passenger to go nuts. It's already happened twice since the 11th.
-Hank
they bankrupt?
Even worse
bankrupt too
If the U.S. Government put as much funds in Amtrak as they do I-95 and the airports, Amtrak services, especially the NE Corridor would run just fine. Not enough funds....the ridership is there, though Amtrak at this time isn't self sufficient, but more funds could make it more likely. More people are using Amtrak now than any airline. Besides trains take more people off roads and planes, which makes for less pollution, and Amtrak's direct closeness to major city centers is more convenient than waiting FOREVER on I-95 in the D.C./Baltimore rush or Philly or NYC rush, or taking like 30 minutes to reach the city and paying outrageous cab fares from the airports in the major cities, which the airports are like 15 - 25 miles from the cities. If the money flow is there for Amtrak, I think it would makes things a lot easier in time for Amtrak to become self sufficient.
guess why the railroad were private companys?
OUCH! On Thanksgiving Sunday no less. Amtrak keeps getting fucked over with problems that are no fault of its own. Thank god it wasn't a weekday. There was probably some diesel power hanging around (CDot or LAIR) to help move stranded trains.
There were. I saw two F40s preparing to pull a stranded train in Larchmont.
Where is Larchmont? Who owned the F40's?
Larchmont is on the MNCRR New Haven Line. The F40's had to be AMTRAK engines.
And I can take a guess without power the train had no lights and no A/C.
I'm beginning to wonder actually how much better Amtrak is than those trains in India!
The F40's are able to provide lights and ventilation.
They are worse. In India they let you ride OUTSIDE the train. Talk about a railfan view!
Not to mention, some of the trains in India have a higher average speed than amtrak.
Hell, even the Canadians are faster - they have a few trains that *average* 90+mph. The Acela is about 75mph.
I seriously doubt they have trains that have a Start to Stop average of 90mph+. The fastest train in the UK only average 74-87mph and that is with 140mph top speeds and electric engines.
From what I read on another forum, they in fact do have 1 or 2 that do that. Of course, it could be canadian miles ;)
Or, more to the point:
The fastest trains we have in Canada - #66 and #67 (formerly numbers assigned to United Aircraft Turbotrain runs) - make the Toronto-Montreal run (once a day, each way, in the evening) of 335 miles in 3 hrs 59 mins. That's an average of 93.5 mph with one intermediate stop. Usually that's with an LRC loco on the point and those seven remaining units will soon be retired. There's a great cab ride video where the LRC hits about 103 mph.
Oddly enough, that probbably makes it one of the fastest diesel runs in the world.
Bad Math Alert!
of 335 miles in 3 hrs 59 mins. That's an average of 93.5 mph with one intermediate
335 MILES / 4 HOURS = 83.7 MILES per HOUR start to stop.
Note that there is no cab signaling requirements in Canada so at those speeds the safty is somewhat suspect.
I was wondering why I saw a long Amtrak train stalled on the corridor in Larchmont today. I was driving south on the New England Thruway and I saw about ten to twelve Amtrak cars headed up by one of the new HHL locos. And in front of the HHL were two F40s. I knew something had to be wrong. Eyewitness News showed people stranded at Penn Station. Man, I felt bad for all those people stranded there. I probably would have been one of them if I was still in college this year, because I used Amtrak (or NJT/SEPTA or Metro-North) to get from home to school, during my first two years at Drexel and the last three years at UConn.
Today at Penn all service to and from BOS was listed with a 5 to 15 min delay only.
I gather it is the slow order on the one opened track.
I was at South Station (Boston) this morning. The AEs were leaving on time for NYP, and the tote board showed arrivals on time as well.
Delays (hours:minutes)from yesterday's derailment: (I typed these in columns. I don't know how the message will display.
Into Washington for selected Into Boston from NYP or Wash
trains from Boston or Springfield
Train Delay Train Delay
161 3:08 86 3:13
2253 1:35 142 4:20
85 1:23 2244 7:00 NO TYPO!
145 4:15 2254 6:44
1173 4:03 194 7:06
163 4:42 178 4:26
57 4:45
1177 4:20
2259 4:38
165 3:13
167 3:45
1169 2:57
Again, these are the amounts of delay, not arrival times.
Source: Amtrak's Train Status Feature on their web page
The board butchered my message so I'll retype it
Delays into Washington
Train Amt of Delay
161 3:08
2253 1:35
85 1:23
145 4:15
1173 4:03
163 4:42
57 4:45
1177 4:20
2259 4:38
Delays into Boston
86 3:13
142 4:20
2244 7:00 NO TYPO!
2254 6:44
194 7:16
178 4:26
Again, these are the delays, NOT arrival times. This board doesn't accept multiple columns.
Michael
Firday wasn't that great, either. I rode Amtrak Friday and got stuck for an hour behind a broken-down Acela Express. It was just north of Wilmington. We had to wait while they got all 100 passengers off using a single emergency ladder, then we pulled up and they transferred the passengers to my train. Fucking Bombardier...
On Wednesday, I travelled on #174 to New Haven. #84 died at Newark, NJ so we had to wait for allof 84's passengers to come over from track 1 to track 2, which means you go downstairs and then come upstairs. It's not a side by side because PATH trains are between the two tracks.
Michael
What happened on Sep. 11 was a disaster. What happened to Amtrak was just another screwup.
now i'm confused. anyone know where this derailment was?
harold interlocking is in queens, at sunnyside, at the connection to the lirr mainline - is it also considered mile 3.7? and the metro north connection @ 18 where in the blue hell is that?
the csx yard is oak point, in the bronx. oak island is the 'other' and better known "oak" yard, in newwark, nj. my guess is the derailment was somewhere between oak point and the connection further up the corridor to metronorth (mile 18?) - though this was a saturday night, no? what freight train would be up there? some random csx local?
anywho. oak point yard is fabulous... with both trash cars from outh bronx and bushwick, plus food inbound for the hunt points market, it's both the arse and mouth of the city!
DOH! found the answer... very interesting...
http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/nyrail/msg1108000584649.html?5
From today's Chicago Tribune:
DYNAMITE FOUND IN DUMPSTER
Associated Press
Published November 25, 2001, 8:08 PM CST
Two suitcases filled with 30 pounds of dynamite were found Sunday in a dumpster just south of downtown Chicago.
Police said the dynamite was not part of a bomb and did not pose a threat to the area. No detonator was found.
Still, dozens of residents were evacuated and service to nearby Chicago Transit Authority rail lines was halted as a precaution. The CTA was providing a shuttle service for stranded passengers.
"It appears that someone may have dumped it there sometime ago," said police spokesman Carlos Herrera. "It doesn't appear to be a threat or terrorist act, it appears to have been dumped by somebody."
A homeless man discovered the suitcases at 1 p.m. in a dumpster behind a building in the 1500 block of South State Street, Herrera said. The homeless man then flagged down a police squad car that was passing through the area, Herrera said.
No one was in police custody early Sunday evening, Herrera said.
*********
Are we having fun yet?
-- David
Chicago, IL
At least it was dynamite. Most times we hear reports about bombs and white powder and it's a false alarm.
Mmm...that it was genuine high explosive is supposed to be /good/ news?
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
YES!!!, At least it wasn't ANTHRAX!!!
AFLAC!!! (sorry!)
In the early 1920's IIRC, a man in Massachusetts found a box of dynamite discarded in a busy street, thought the sticks were sausages, and ate a couple of them (a recent immigrant, he couldn't read English and therefore didn't understand the warning signs on the box). He suffered no ill effects.
Couldn't have been too toxic. After all, they use nitroglycerine as a heart medicine.
-- Ed Sachs
I'm surprised he ate his way through an entire stick, let alone several of them, without realising that these 'sausages' tasted funny, the texture was all wrong and that there just didn't seem to be any meat in them.
-Robert King
I'm surprised he ate his way through an entire stick, let alone several of them, without realising that these 'sausages' tasted funny,
the texture was all wrong and that there just didn't seem to be any meat in them.
Actually, he did notice that the sticks tasted rather sweet for sausage, and figured that they were some sort of dried fruit.
I guess the idea that perhaps, maybe, possibly, these things might not be food took a long time to dawn on this guy.
Given the appearance of dynamite and the way the sticks are put together, it's probably only luck that saved this guy from thinking they were cigars and attempting to smoke one.
-Robert King
Diatomacious (sp) Earth and Nitroglycerin -- YUMMY. Also, Old dynamite tends to leach nitroglycerin which would be VERY unstable. that guy is lucky the whole suitcase didn't detonate, blowing him sky high!
Chalk and nitro were Nobels gift to the world (re: Nobel Prize.) No more upset stomachs and heart problems though dynamite was better than the previous method of stabilizing nitro...FREEZING (a far more powerful 'propellant) and was used in construction of railroad tunnels when transport was by horse and wagon.
Hey, we could make a 19th century "Speed" -- the cargo blows up if you can't get it to the end of the rail tunnel in time.
It did happen, often. Nitroglycerin was carried in heavy glass bottles with glass stoppers and packed with cotton excelsior in wooden crates. If a horse stumbled or the wagon wheel hit a rock, the jarring of the contents could detonate the whole shebang. Peter
He'd get a bang out of it, for sure.
Rim shot!
Bobby ... you haven't BEEN to a Chock Full'o'nuts restaurant, have you? The doggies taste the same. Only thing the guy should have been able to spot was the "urp! BOOM!" thingy. :)
What a nut job. Of course the CTA did the right thing. Just goes to show you what morons are walking around these days.
Tell me if I'm right or wrong!
The new UPDATED subway map (with V line ) will be available in all station booth by Dec 15.
I hope your right, but the map should be posted as sort of a future changes thing. Not distributed 2 weeks before.
You're right - no wait - you're wrong - no wait - you're-----
Never mind. We won't reaaly know until 12/16 (unless our resident SA's) have some advance info).
In the meantime you can settl;e for the new brochure "New Routes More Options Less Crowding" now available at stations.
Got one already, Thanks
I have ino info at this time. I expect (but this is only my personal opinion) there will be a full size version of "The Map" with a date of 12/16/01. I expect this to be in booths available on 12/15/01 (here again my opinion).
I promise- I will post info when I receive the info. I already sent info from the brochure to Mike Adler whom I am sure is already working on his version.
It's 3:45 in the morning, and I can't sleep. So I go online to SubTalk and see if anyone will listen.
Yesterday wasn't an eventful day. Things just got worse when I arrived home. I accessed a message on my answering machine and it was my mother's sister. She said she was calling my mother all day but got no answer.
So I headed over to her apartment nearby. I picked up the Sunday Newsday in front of the door. That's strange, she should have picked it up by now (7:00PM). Then I opened the door and turned on the light and I saw her on the living room floor motionless.
I touched her face and she was cold and her eyes were slightly open. So I called 911 and the Police arrived and it sank in what has happened. Phone calls to some relatives and my Brother we met with the same crying on the other end of the phone line. Later today my brother will drive up from Maryland and we will meet with funeral director to make arrangements.
Sorry, but I had to post this. I feel with SubTalk I converse through cyberspace with you all even though I haven't met most of you. My father died some 25 years ago and since we were a small family, I had to look after her. I wasn't a mommas boy and she knew it. I felt it was my family duty to look after her just as she looked after me when I was a child. Now she's gone.
Some eight years ago, my girlfriend was killed in a car crash. My mother knew I was hurting and supported me through the bad days. I don't have a girlfriend or wife to look after me, so I feel lost and insecure. Or maybe I still in a state of shock and it hasn't sunk in yet.
Now we are into the holiday season where we all are in the spirit of being happy and spending time with family. 2001 has not been a good year for events. Such as the 9/11 attack and the chemical warfare. Something's going on that I can't comprehend. All this death. What does all this bad stuff mean ?
I will take a short hiatus from SubTalk to take care of things. I'm sorry I went off topic on this. I don't many friends, so I consider you all friends all over the country and world courtesy of SubTalk.
Regards,
Bill "Newkirk"
You have my deepest sympathy, Bill. Godspeed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Amen, from the Hart Bus Family
Wow, I'm sorry to hear this.
You have Jodi and my condolances. Arangements?
-Hank
Sorry to hear this Bill. There is always a glimmer of hope though- try not to get too down...
-Harry
Sorry to hear this, Bill. You're in our thoughts and prayers.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Bill, I'm sorry to hear this. I was just at a funeral over the weekend and I know what it's like. Take things easy and you have my best of wishes.
One more thing, we're here for you...
You have my sympathy also. As you might be well aware I went through the same thing this year a few times when I lost some friends. I too was at a funeral for one of them right where I live in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York and I couldn't hold myself together at times. I know how you feel since I went through it too. It is never easy when you lose friends or loved ones.
I also shared my pain with you with the discomfort that I was having from my concealed cleft palate but, I got that situation under control by purchasing a hood that covers my cheeks and neck as well as my head and I wear it at night when I sleep and now I'm in much less pain. Now I often wear the hood in cooler weather and it has been a hit amongst those who know me well and a few of them have said that I look a little like a monk while I'm wearing the hood. A monk with a concealed cleft palate of course and now I'm back to my good tempered self thanks to wearing the hood.
I was also at Ground Zero on Wednesday November 21st 2001 and got a good idea of what it was like especially at Washington and Carlisle Streets and to say the least it was an awful sight and there was still a terrible odor though it was faint. There is still some dust in the area and I wound up with a few dust particles on me.
I'm thankful that I'm now doing O.K. since this year has been a very difficult one for me.
Once again you have my sympathy concerning your loss.
Jeff Alterman
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff,
I was also at ground zero last Wednesday, it was indeed a very, very, sad and devastating site to see. -Nick
Godspeed, Bill. My prayers go out to you and your family.
You have my deepest sympathy.
Bill, my heart goes out to you at this time.
Please do not hesitate to contact me via email. If there is anything I can do, just ask...
Take care.
Our Utmost Sympathy & Condolences to you, Mr. Newkirk.
Sorry to hear this, Bill. You're in our thoughts and prayers.
-- Dan
Baltimore, MD
Bill-
My heart goes out to you. My Dad died when I was a teenager and my Mom died when I was in my mid-twenties. I always relive their passing when I hear of friends and acquaintances who are in mourning and planning funerals.
The first year without a loved one is the toughest. Ironically, some of my earliest memories of my Mom involve riding the M15 bus, taking the Eastside IRT subways, and a icky transit strike in the 1970s!
Get plenty rest, let people feed you and run some errands for you. And let us know how you are doing.
- S
You have my deepest sympathy, Bill.
Bill,
Our deepest sympathy goes out to you and your family. We know that the next few months will be very hard for you, but remember she is not really gone as long as you have all of your fond memories of her.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you,
Barb & Karl B
Bill, I am very sorry to hear this. Being you were the one who actually discovered her, it makes the pain that much greater. You have my heartfelt sympathy and that of my son Steven who met you a few months ago while we were photographing one of this years' D type trips to Rock Park. This has been an awful year: a several of my railfan friends' lost a parent; the railfan community lost Eddie Gibbs and Arnold Joseph; earlier in the year I lost a long time t/o friend to cancer; and just a week ago we suddenly lost another t/o friend of mine. He was only 40 years old. Couple that to our family losing a good friend to cancer in his early 60's. Worked all his life and never lived to see his pension. Even without this, the loss of life at WTC and in Belle Harbor. A year I would like to put behind me and so will you.........Be strong and all the best.
I too lost some friends this year and having been born with a concealed cleft palate only makes it worse for me. I lost a long time friend this past September 29th who was just 37 years old at the time of his death. When they had the funeral on October 3rd I went to it and it was very painful for me. Later that afternoon while I was at the village managers office my concealed cleft palate cause me considerable pain becuase of the stress that I was under. Thankfully I got over that loss but it wasn't easy and, I've finally come to terms concerning my concealed cleft palate and, now I'm wearing a hood while I sleep at night which resembles those used by the pilots of open cockpit airplanes. The hood covers my cheeks which keeps my mouth warm at night which in turn keep my palate warm and now I'm in much less pain. I even wear the hood while I'm outside on cool days and everyone who knows me likes my hood. A few have even said that I look a little like a monk. I've even worn it on the subway.
BTW if any of you should see a man of medium height, slim but muscular build, good tempered, a little hyper, wearing glasses and a dark beard with a black hood appearing to look like a monk on the subways over the next few months it is me #3 West End Jeff.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff Alterman
Bill, you have my prayers & deepest sympathies. I hope you can draw strength from your extended Subtalk family.
Bill,
You have my deepest and sincerest condolences.
Allan
I'm very sorry to hear u go through such tragedy.
My prayer and thought are with u and your family.
Be strong!
God Bless you and your family.
Bill,
I'm very sorry for your loss. You have my deepest condolences.
Marc
My thoughts and prayers are with you. I've had a grandmother and uncle pass away at this time of year, so I can relate to that. Know that your mother's love will always be with you. Take care.
Bill ....
We're here for you sould you need us. There are no words any of us can say ... may you find comfort in your memories.
--Mark
Sorry to hear that.
Please accept my condolences Bill.
Apologies aren't necessary. Many of us here feel that most of the Subtalkers are part of our extended family. Our deepest sympathies go out to you.
I do not regularly post messages. However, you have my sincerest condolences.
Jose Santiago
Bill,
My deepest sympathy to you and your family on your loss.
subfan
Wow guy ... that is TRULY the worst way for it to happen. I won't bring religion into the board, but hope you're founded in yours and can cope with things like this all having a GOOD purpose in the long run. It was probably best that YOU found mom as hard as it is for you rather than one of the other family members, and you're going to have some rough time ahead of you since dealing with the loss is very difficult. At the same time, you're fortunate also in that you already lost one parent and have more capacity to cope now for the others in your family.
My sympathies and prayers, bro ... the email addy up above is for real if you want to talk about it offline ...
Bill,
So sorry to hear about your loss. Please accept my condolensces.
Ouch :(
I've not had to deal directly with it, but I did have to deal with the death of my grandmother a few years back, and it wasn't easy.
It never is.
Just remember, you've got us all here to support you.
Bill, death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because the dawn has come. All your Subtalk friends are with you in sympathy and prayer. With your mother's passing, there is a new dawn in your own life, too. We'll stick with you in the dark and cheer you on as the dawn gets brighter.
- Ray Crapo
Bill: My deepest condolences to you and yours. I have a small family too and do understand. Leaving my employment of twenty one years and starting with TA in the midst of WTC, my faith in the Lord keeps me going. Sometimes, I do not understand why I had been given a 'second chance in life,' a new start, but everyday I assemble myself for the best and preparing for the inevitable making myself available to those I care for round the clock. The 'good' do what they can and share, the 'bad' keep for themselves and eventually get whats coming.
My father disappeared when I was a small child only to be 'discovered' by me thirty years later. He never did anything for me, I didn't owe him anything, I wasn't bitter over the damage and criminal mischief he had been involved in so many years ago...I just did for him what was right....and he is gone. I would like to think that he is proud of my new TA career. Christmas has always been hard for me...what 'all this bad stuff means' is a reference to recognise all the good...the good people...and good works...that we sometimes miss...right under our noses. I have many new friends on SubTalk and in TA and I count you as one of them. CI Peter, CED
And I am here for you if you ever need me. Take care. You have come a long way through very adverse circumstances. Something tells me you are a winner.
My deepest condolances in these troubled times. It is important to remember that bad things happen to good people with or without catastophic events such as the September 11th tragedy. And even in the worst times, people can prevail.
--Andrew
You have my Condolences..
Do what you have to do. Take care.
I am very sorry Bill. 2001 was a terrible year all around. I myself lost several people, not to mention some co-workers at 2 and 7 WTC.
May God be with you.
Al Voci
Bill,
I'm sorry for what happened. My deepest sympathies, stay strong.
You have my deepest sympathies.
Bill, your an asset to this website. My prayers for your family and looking forward to your return.
Bill, you have my sympathy. It is an unfortunate truth that personal disasters/crises happen in groups. We are thinking of you during this time.
i am sorry to hear of your loss. as all the other have said before and will to add my deepest sympathy to you and your family.
faxman (alan)
My prayers and best wishes are with you my friend. I'll remember your mother in my prayers. You have my deepest sympathy.
Having just had to spend a thanksgiving without two members of my family I can feel for your situation. Don't be afraid to talk with family of friends about it or to go out and have a good time (possibly subfanning). The worst thing one can do is withdraw from life and bottle up feelings.
Bill...My deepest sympathy to you and your family at this time.
Carl M.
My deepest sympathies. This is a very hard time. I also lost my mother not too long ago, she died from cancer and at a young age (50).
At least for me I didn't have to find her like that, she died in the hospital. That is so horrible. My mother actually lost her father (my grandfather) in a similar fashion. He was mowing the lawn, and never came back in. When she went out to check on him, she saw him lying there motionless and called 911.
Death is horrible thing. What makes it harder is having few people to turn to. Not having a wife or girlfriend is extremely hard enough, then when tragedy strikes you feel like screaming.
Hopefully you have some support from your family. I don't have much family, and those that live closeby don't bother to visit me at all. Only my mother's brother (my Uncle) calls me regularly and sometimes visits.
The holidays are especially hard to deal with. I never really cared for those happy-go lucky Christmas songs like "Sleigh Ride" and "Jingle Bells". The only holiday music I can tolerate are the more meloncholy songs like "So This is Christmas" by John Lennon, "All alone on Christmas" by Darlene Love, and the song by Band Aid.
Again the best of luck to you, my deepest sympathies. If you need to chat feel free to email me anytime.
I can understand the pain that you went through when you lost your mother. You have probably received the E-mail mentioning to you that I lost some friends myself this year and it was painful for me too. It must be very difficult for you these days since you have few people to turn to when you're in difficulty. It is never easy when you lose loved ones or friends.
#3 West End Jeff
Bill,
My sincere condolences on your loss. My prayers are with you.
-Todd Glickman
I wish to extend my condolences. I will remember you in my prayers.
Sorry to hear about your loss. My prayers and condolences go out to you and your family.
Bill, I'm so sorry for your loss, I understand what you are going through. I lost neighbors in WTC, family over the years. Just yesterday, a T/O friend had a fatal 12-9. It sure seems like we are all reporting bad news of late. I hope I may be able to offer light at the end of the tunnel. In 1989, Debbie was in your shoes. Lonely, hurting, she walked into her apartment to find her dad in the tub with a heart attack. Through a friend of her dads, I was introduced and Debbie and I have a beautiful daughter, and ten years of marriage. I sincerely pray you make it through these hard times and insist things will only get better.
Harry
I send my condolences to you and your family.I had tragedy in my family and so have everyone else in the past 2 months.May god bless you.
Bill, you have our deepest sympathies in this your time of loss. May your memories comfort you, and bring you peace.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
May GOD Have mercy on you and embrace you in your time of need.He hasn't forgoten you.......
My deepest sympathies, Bill.
You have my deepest sympathies, keep your chin up, Bill.
My thoughts go out to you. Stay strong.
Sorry to hear of your loss. I wish you and your family the best.
@ glad to have met you at the coney island tour with ""SOUTH FERRY""...
Our Utmost Sympathy & Condolences to you, Mr. Newkirk.
Bill,
My deepest sympathies on your loss. I had to fly to NYC twice this year for funerals, including my dad's funeral.
God Bless You,
ScottinSF
My condolences to you and your family, Bill. I'm sorry you lost your mother. Losing a parent is one of the hardest losses anyone has to go through. And the fact that we have all been through so much tragedy in the last two months only makes worse. 2001 has not been a good year with tragedy, Anthrax, recession and rising unemployment, a disappointing start of the new millenium. But to have to lose your mother makes it much harder. Once again, my deepest condolences to you and your family, Bill. While I obviously have never met you or your mother, from the way you described how she was there for you after you lost you girlfriend, she sounds like she was a good person. May God bless her and keep her in His grace forever.
Mike Den/R142 #2
Bill,
My prayers and deepest sympathies are with you and your family. It is hard to understand sometimes why all these things happen at once, at this time I have two relatives in the hospital, and it makes you wonder just what the Heck is going on. But despite that all being said, do your best to stay strong, as your subtalk family is here to support you. -Nick
Sorry to hear that. We're here for you, and may she be always remembered.
Bill,
After seeing the outpouring on this board, you can take heart that you are blessed with a tremendous number of friends.
Please accept my condolences on your most unfortunate loss.
Even though you might not be aware of me, I've been posting and
reading Subtalk since 96. I've been aware of you.
Please accept my condolences and sympathy.
You have my deepest sympathy.
This morning rush you couldn't win on the Broadway line no matter how you traveled, local or express.
Police Activity at DeKalb on a Diamond Q held up Brighton Service at around 8:15am. Want to go local?? NOT!!!
N train with mechanical problems stopped service for the N/R through DeKalb as well.
Bright side, all this happened in Brooklyn so people weren't screaming about sitting between 34th and 57th Sts. Then looking back all the people waiting on those platforms....
One of my favorite I Love Lucy episodes was played last night on TVLand. It was the one where she got a Loving Cup stuck in her head and had to ride the subway unable to see and barely unable to hear. Hillariously funny. Anyway, the car she was on went from Woodlawn to Flatbush. I'm guessing that would have been the 4 or 5 line back then (mid 50's). Am I correct? Also, the car she was on had a vertical bar between the doors that allowed only one person to squeeze thru each side of the door at a time. Could that have been added for the show or is there such a car? Thanks fo the info in advance. JR-Atlanta
Kind of off topic, but I HATE that show. It was never, EVER funny.
[Also, the car she was on had a vertical bar between the doors that allowed only one person to squeeze thru each side of the door at a time. Could that have been added for the show or is there such a car?]
The description kinda reminds me of the BMT Standard, but those are too big to fit in the IRT tunnels.
The interior shots were done on a studio mockup which was sort of a cross between a Lo-V and a BMT standard.
They also showed some footage of some Low V's and a Flushing R-12 or R-14 with the number 7 backwards
They have some info here on this site about that:
Lucy gets a "loving cup" stuck on her head and, when she tries to leave the Lexington Ave Express, ends up getting back on board with the crowd. To this day it's still hysterical. Subway scenes: The whole episode! Low-V cars on the Lexington IRT, station sets for Flatbush Ave. and Bleecker St. Stock footage of R12s of the #7 line (somehow edited in flipped over so that the signs read backwards), and R-1/9s on the AA. Interior scenes are done in a studio mockup which looks like a cross between a Low-V and a BMT Standard.
And some pictures here (but none of the actual train).
The show was filmed in Hollywood so I didn't expect authentic scenes from the subway. But the people who wrote the script did have some knowledge about the subway. It's not that they just named stations just to remind viewers this was NYC.
They did have some accuracy. Lucy lived on East 68th Street, so she did take the Lexington line and one of the stations was Bleecker Street that they stopped at. So it's not like they randomly picked stations.
That's what I said. The writers knew something about the subway. They picked stations that were accessable to the Lexington Subway. They didn't choose certain locations solely because they were well known places to those from somewhere else.
>>>Lucy lived on East 68th Street...<<<
According to the address, on E 68th St., that they mentioned from time to time(I can't recall the house number, think it was in the 800s), Lucy Actually lived in the midle of the East River as the number was too high for E 68th St.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I heard that once also! I guess they didn't want hordes of people in front of a real building--sort of like the 555 phone numbers.
I wonder how many dopes actually went to look for the address?
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm sure at the time alot, and over the years, since Lucy is still repeated all the time, I'm sure occasionally people still do!
I believe the address was 623 E. 68th Street. That would put the Ricardo apartment a block or two into the East River.
It would put it one block into the river. 500s would be where Rockefeller University is.
That's 623 E 68th Street, which would be in the East River. She should have been on the 3rd AVenue El which may have still existed when that episode was made.
She should have been on the 3rd AVenue El which may have still existed when that episode was made.
3rd. Ave. El closed May 1955,
Missed it by 2 years
"I Love Lucy" (1957)
(Episode: "Lucy and the Loving Cup")
Oh God, another hopeless Lucy fan. I was too lazy to get out my fanbook to look up the episode. I guess they couldn't get Ralph Kramden to drive her down Madison Avenue in that condition on the Gotham Bus Company.
If you were to combine Ricky's "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!" and Ralph Kramden's "Hamanahamanahamanahamana", you'd have a great combination.
If Lucy had been on the 3rd Ave El, we would have seen her on an elevated station.
She was actually in a movie once which was set right next to the el. You could hear trains all throughout the movie, bull and pinion gears and all.
In addition, I just want to state how things changed since the 50's. In one scene in that episode, before they get on the subway, Ethel says to Lucy, "I have to change first. You can't expect me to go on the subway in my blue jeans!"........................
Nowadays, Blue Jeans are considered classy apparel compared to some of the motley shit people are wearing now.
That's why it is so funny now. I'm sure it wasn't meant to be as funny back then.
>>> I'm sure it wasn't meant to be as funny back then. <<<
I think the humor was based on the fact that although most people would wear jeans on the subway then, they would get dressed in their finest to ride on mainline intercity trains. Lucy is inappropriately applying the standard of dress for mainline travel to the subway.
Tom
Interesting observation.
Peace,
ANDEE
Possibly, but it is funny just the same. There may be some truth to it, because I've never seen Ethel wear jeans in any other episode.
One can only imagine Fred having to help her into them....making all SORTS of sarcastic remarks.....
One of the funniest lines on TV is from that episode when she gets off at Flatbush Av and asks a guy (with the cup still over her head) "where am I" and the man answers: "earth"
Seinfeld uses the same bit when he and George are lost in LA.
Now compare that episode of "50's Lucy" to "70's All in the Family"'s episode when they all get stuck on the subway. In the Lucy episode everyone and the wall's etc, were portrayed as very clean and everyone was very "proper". In All in the Family's episode the 70's impression started to take hold. Everything was filthy. Everyone was nasty (and dirty)! (Although, there was a "drunk" in both!!!)
That perception lives on to recent times. In the subway episode of Seinfeld, the cars are shown with a healthy amount of graffiti, which hasn't been the case in years.
Mark
In some parts of this country people think:
Gangs still rule.
Crime is still out of control.
Platforms are still knee high in trash.
And subway cars haven't changed since the 60's.
Not only that, but pay particular attention when a train (railroad) is part of a TV show. More often than not, steam whistles and the 'chugga chugga' sounds can be heard, a generation after the last steam main line trains!
What particularly amused me about the Seinfeld episode was Kramer's description of how many ways one could get to Coney Island. There were a few, but anyone following several of the directions would get nowhere close to CI.
Like I have said, People who write these shows know little about NYC and TA. Sometimes they will come up with some little piece of actual trivia. But will surround it with alot of outdated sounds and facts. When was the last time a steam whistle used in the subway? Was there one ever used in the subway?
Seinfeld must be spending too much time shuttling between Long Island and Hollywood. Allowing writers to fowl up simple directions to Coney Island is unthinkable. Maybe it's funny. But they're wrong.
It's not just NYC. If you know anything about Phila, watch the intro to the current TV show 'Philly'. The star walks from her fictional office somewhere in Center City to City Hall. In the process she leaves the subway via the 'clothespin' stairway at 15th St only to cross 15th at grade and descend into the subway concourse once again in Dilworth Plaza. She could've stayed in the concourse and made this move, but it's more picturesque (I guess) for her to go out of her way. She's walking fast, too, so even though she seems to be in a hurry, she's still taking the long way!
I think it was 'Rocky 2' where a similar thing occurred. Rocky was being rushed from the Spectrum after the big fight to the hospital. The nearest hospital is about 5 minutes away but the ambulance managed to stretch the trip to go through Center City and the historic area, miles out of the way. I guess Rocky wasn't in as bad a shape as we thought.
Isn't Seinfeld sort of based on Jerry's life in the early/mid '80s? It occurs partially in the present and partially then?
And who could forget the episode of the Odd Couple where Felix and Oscar get stuck on a subway.
I forgot which one said, "I always wanted to see what a subway yard looked like."
I think that was Felix
I was hoping someone would mention this subway episode from the greatest sitcom of all time.
Funny scene from this episode is when Felix is trying to "entertain" the people on the stuck train with his handkerchief, which he had folded into a makeshift hand puppet and named "Harvey Hanky". Felix goes up to a guy who has a distinct "don't bother me" attitude (played by producer Garry Marshall) and says (in his most cheery, bubbly voice), "Hi, I'm Harvey Hanky. What's your name?" The grumpy guy then smacks Felix's puppet with his newspaper and replies, "Harry Hit. Get atta heah."
(How I wish I could get away with something like that with those moronic preachers!)
Also in that episode were Scatman Cruthers as the phony blind man, and Barney Martin (I think) as the guy who tries to sell Oscar his sandwich.
Ferdinand Cesarano
That was done on a studio mockup, although the subway entrance portrayed before is authentic for the times.
I remember one All in the Family episode where Gloria and Meathead are looking for an apartment in the Bronx. They and Archie take the subway to get there.
On the way home, they're sitting in what appears to be an R1/9 IND car (given the seat arrangements). A married couple gets on the train and sits opposite them. The couple begins arguing and appear on the verge of violence. The classic attitudes of the day:
Gloria: Naive outrage.
Meathead: He says quietly to Gloria, in a leary, fearful way: "Ignore them!"
Archie: Bemusement.
Just beautiful.
Great episode of All in the Family, even if I didn't like trains!
I remember that hilarious episode. Although the set mock-up was similair to an R1-9, I think they were meant to ride an IRT (Lexington Ave) train. I recall seeing Grand Central on a roll sign. Well, I guess Arch, Gloria and Mike would go to Lex-59, and get an "RR" back to Astoria!!! Tony Leong
I have always thought that the Bunkers/Stivics would be more of a IND Queens line type family..perhaps one of the local stops between Roosevelt Ave and Forest Hills-then maybe a bus..or a long hike....BTW the 'Bunker house'[the one in the titles at least] was actually someplace in subway-less Maspeth.....
Archie I always pictured as an IND R-1/9 type of guy on the IND, either on the E, F or EE. Mike's into that multicultural stuff, so he probably took the 7 train...
The Bunker house from the titles is on Cooper Avenue between 88th & 89th St.
Hey Guys, Archie always used to say his address was 704 Hauser Street in ASTORIA. Plus, he was talking about Northern Blvd all of the time. When Edith was about to give birth to Gloria, Archie took her on the Q5 bus because "..the subway don't run ta' Bayside" . Well, Bayside General Hospital was in BAYSIDE!!! The odd thing is that when Archie and Edith went to visit Cousin Maude in Tuckahoe (when Carol, Maude's daughter from Maude's second husband that died on the honeymoon at sea), was getting married to David, the Bunkers were rushing to catch the bus at the Port Authority. I wonder why they didn't rush to the (at the time) ConRail??? Tony
TV and movie writers' protocol is that you never use correct street names, addresses, bus or train lines or directions in fictional works. Somebody might try to seek out a character's 'house', or the real occupant of a mentioned address could sue over privacy. Hence the Ricardos' and Mertzes' oft-discussed watery address.
The ALL IN THE FAMILY writers probably figured Astoria was the perfect blue-collar enclave for the Bunkers to live in, or that's how any writers who may have grown up in the area remember it. But according to the Queens address and numbering system, a named or numbered Street with the house number 704 could only be off 7th Avenue, which only exists in Whitestone or College Point. Unless it's Ridgewood, which is another story altogether.
It always cracked me up that, although Tuckahoe, home of the Findlays, is in Westchester, the opening titles for MAUDE are filmed from a car traveling over the GWB into JERSEY and along a generic Jersey highway. It looks like I-80 or the Garden State.
The short-lived BROOKLYN BRIDGE series was created by a guy who grew up in Bensonhurst and based the locale on his memoirs. The Silvers' address actually could have existed but for the fact that there's a school taking up that entire block. In one episode, the older son is figuring out how to get to the 'private' Bronx High School of Science via numerous subway and bus lines. They got the Sea Beach part right (no 'N' train designation in the Fifties), but no bus is necessary; the Lex-Jerome line, as it would have been called, goes right there.
A COSBY SHOW episode had similar semi-accurate dialogue about subways and buses. It's never made clear throughout the run of the series excatly where the Huxtables live, but Grandpa once displays an African artifact he obtained at a store "on Flatbush Avenue".
Cos's later series was based in Astoria, with the 31st Street El seemingly running right over his house. There may have been reference to the Lucases living on 33rd Avenue, which only exists in that area as a short, narrow side street.
For other legal reasons, any cop show has to take place in a precinct with an unused number. NYPD BLUE is in the 15th; BARNEY MILLER, the 12th. The latter series frequently referred to addresses and corners that didn't exist.
TAXI did a little better. A fare got dropped off at Hudson and Jane, a very real corner in the West Village, but another one requested to got to the intersection of a numbered avenue and numbered street in Brooklyn that would be in the middle of Greenwood Cemetery. Tony once had an accident at 5th and 46th.
The granddaddy of NY-based shows, THE HONEYMOONERS, mentioned a lot of streets in Bed-Stuy and Bushwick; Gleason actually grew up at 328 Chauncey, the address most often used for the Kramdens, and which still exists. The erroneous locality designation of Bensonhurst was supposedly because Gleason thought the name sounded funnier and more quintessentially 'Brooklyn' than Bushwick. I always thought Flatbush or Greenpernt were the epitome of 'Brooklyn'.
So if you're bothered by blatant mistakes on TV shows and movies (the most recently infamous subway routing error being a Slant-40 leaving Lexington and immediately emerging onto the Manny B in THE COWBOY WAY), it's not carelessness or ignorance.
TV and movie writers' protocol is that you never use correct street names, addresses, bus or train lines or directions in fictional works.
AND, the mapmakers of the world (Rand McNally et al) always put in a few deliberate errors so they can tell if anyone rips off their copyrighted designs! There's usually some nonexistent small town, or wildly mislocated or mis-shapen geographic feature, in every map put out.
Wonder if there's a list on the web somewhere of these deliberate errors ....
I have a map of NYC from the early '60s (even has the east river site marked as "World Trade Center") that lists Staten Island as being in "Staten Island County" -- so horribly wrong that it has to be deliberate.
>>>(even has the east river site marked as "World Trade Center")<<<
No error, originally the World Trade Center was proposed for the east side.
Peace,
ANDEE
No error, originally the World Trade Center was proposed for the east side.
REALLY? Good god! Where ... bounded by what streets?
I don't recall the exact location. Maybe someone else does.
Peace,
ANDEE
West boundary would have been Front or Water Streets, I think.....
TV and movie writers' protocol is that you never use correct street names, addresses, bus or train lines or directions in fictional works.
AND, the mapmakers of the world (Rand McNally et al) always put in a few deliberate errors so they can tell if anyone rips off their copyrighted designs! There's usually some nonexistent small town, or wildly mislocated or mis-shapen geographic feature, in every map put out.
Deliberate errors occur most commonly on street maps. In most cases, these "copyright traps" take the form of small, dead-end streets in residential areas. In a book I'm reading entitled The Island of Lost Maps, involving the thriving business of stolen antique maps, there's a brief scene in which the author visits the Queens headquarters of the American Map Company and learns about the use of fake streets. I'm sure American Map is not the only company engaging in this practice.
Use of deliberate errors is less common on world or national maps as would be found in atlases. Mapmakers have enough discretion in how they show waterways, mountains, and other physical features that they need not resort to deliberate errors - copyright violations will be obvious.
AND lest you think US military maps are always accurate the following from my late father who worked 29 years for the Army Map Service.
In the fifties Chancellor Adenour of (west) Germany demanded that US produced maps for NATO of western Poland show the GERMAN placenames from before the transfer ofthe territory to the Poles at the end of WWII. 'Course had US soldiers ever looked for road signs in German...
I have an old Mobil steeet map of NYC dated 1967. It shows a "43rd Avenue" connecting Colden Street to Kissena Blvd, in Flushing. The speace is actually taken up by a apartment parking lot.
Till this thread, I just assumed that they may once have mapped, but never built such a block.....
That's especially funny because the streets have names, not numbers, between 41 Ave and 56 Ave (except 45 Ave, which is a different story). 43 Ave would be Cherry St, which is interrupted between Kissena and Colden; it's possible that block once existed but has been demapped.
A Myrtle Lane showed up on Hagstrom maps in the dumping ground off East 71 St between Aves N & T in Bergen Beach; such a street never existed nor was ever proposed. Now I know why I didn't get a free map for sending in a "correction." :)
<<<"That's especially funny because the streets have names, not numbers, between 41 Ave and 56 Ave (except 45 Ave, which is a different story). 43 Ave would be Cherry St, which is interrupted between Kissena and Colden; it's possible that block once existed but has been demapped.">>>
I am actually a native of the area, living there from birth to age 11. I try to go back there once or twice a year to look around. The named avenues in the area also run alphabetically, from Ash to Rose, with some skipping in between (45th Avenue should be "F"- somebody once told me it was called "Franconia Avenue" many, many years ago...)
Colden Street was also originally mapped to meet Kissena Blvd just south of Rose Avenue- a blue and white 1960s-era sing was actually posted at this phantom intersection for years (into my adult life).
BTW, Staten Island has quite a number of fully-signed, but non-existent intersections, particlarly along Amboy Road and Hylan Blvd.
It's a shame that Queens lost all sense of history when they got rid of all of the old street names and boringly numbered most of them. I'm glad they didn't do it in Brooklyn.
I was once told that "F"orty-fifth is F (a city planner with a sense of humor?), but that doesn't sound very likely :).
Peck Avenue has always fascinated me, existing in a piece here and a piece there from Flushing all the way to Queens Village. The earliest street map I have is 1909, and it was as broken up then as it is today.
<<<"Peck Avenue has always fascinated me, existing in a piece here and a piece there from Flushing all the way to Queens Village. The earliest street map I have is 1909, and it was as broken up then as it is today.">>>
Yes!! Good old Peck Avenue! Do you know if it has any relation to Peck's Office Supply place at Main Street/Northern Boulevard?
Also, Ash Avenue breaks at Parson's Boulevard (which ITSELF breaks at Kissena Park)- there's some very interesting big houses along Parson's Blvd where it cuts Ash Avenue..anyoen here know anything about them? Were they early NIMBY's who kept the old Village of Flushing (or whatever legal structure it had) from bisecting their property?
Peck Avenue, and its partner, Underhill Avenue, follow the route of an ancient branch of the LIRR that connected the PW Branch with the main line. It hasn't existed since the turn of the 20th Century, though a short spur did serve Creedmoor into the mid-1900s.
On a map, the old ROW can be clearly made out along the Kissena Corridor Park, Crommelin Street, Colden Street, Peck & Underhill Aves., Stewart Road, and 87th-88th Avenues. That there are few traffic outlets between 87th and 88th Aves. between Winchester Boulevard and Little Neck Parkway is testimony to the presence of an old railroad ROW, at grade, in the area.
And, Bob Andersen's site, lirrhistory.com, will show you where you can still find the odd rail or two that has survived to this day.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The sections of Peck Avenue that I know:
-South of Union Tpke, near Bell Blvd.
-Brief section off Bell Blvd, near Union Tpke
-199th St turns into Peck Ave midway between 73rd Ave and Horace Harding in Fresh Meadows
-Between north side of Horace Harding and 164th St, Fresh Meadows (I think this is unbroken, and thus is no doubt by far the longest section. Still nothing major.)
-Brief section west of Kissena Blvd.
-Brief section west of Main St.
:-) Andrew
For what it's worth, Peck Ave and the parks that run along with it to Cunningham Park and eventually to Creedmore and the LIRR Main Line used to be the route for an old Railroad. I think it was the Central Railroad of Long Island.
BTW, Staten Island has quite a number of fully-signed, but non-existent intersections, particlarly along Amboy Road and Hylan Blvd.
Kind of like many of those cities in the west which have city limits extending far into the unsettled desert, and a number of streets, or not-quite-existing streets which are signed and fit into the city's name or numbering grid.
:-) Andrew
These streets exist on official maps prepared by NYC; the DOT duly installs street signs, and they're shown on maps. Sometimes, though, they don't get built or cut through for decades.
Geographia has a clever feature in which they show the complete map for Staten Island, but gray out the streets that aren't there (yet).
www.forgotten-ny.com
Wasn't that apartment complex put up after 1967?
Wasn't that apartment complex put up after 1967?
No, the complex, known as Carlyle/Skyline Towers, was built between 1960 and 1963 by the Woodner organization. It was built under the old building code, like many other apartment buildings in the early 1960's. The rental buildings served as housing for some of the exhibit personnel for the 1964-1965 Worlds Fair.
Something else may have been built there in the late 1940s/early '50s. My 1945 Hagstrom shows Cherry as a continuous street (and MacDonald and Jenkins Streets between Colden and Kissena, running from Franklin Ave to Elder Ave). On my 1953 Shell/Gousha map, MacDonald and Jenkins are gone, and Cherry bends northward and meets Beech Ave at Kissena.
<<<"No, the complex, known as Carlyle/Skyline Towers, was built between 1960 and 1963 by the Woodner organization. It was built under the old building code, like many other apartment buildings in the early 1960's. The rental buildings served as housing for some of the exhibit personnel for the 1964-1965 Worlds Fair.">>>
How would similar building built today differ?
How would similar building built today differ?
There would have to be at least 1 on property parking space for each apartment.
Deliberate errors occur most commonly on street maps. In most cases, these "copyright traps" take the form of small, dead-end streets in residential areas. In a book I'm reading entitled The Island of Lost Maps, involving the thriving business of stolen antique maps, there's a brief scene in which the author visits the Queens headquarters of the American Map Company and learns about the use of fake streets. I'm sure American Map is not the only company engaging in this practice.
Well, you can rest assured that there's nothing like that in my book. I guess I just trust y'all too much << grin >>! I was toying with that idea a while back, but I realized that I'd get so much feedback about an inaccuracy or misplaced switch or station, etc, that it wasn't worth it. You guys are just too good!!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Pete,
I've seen some pretty obvious copyright errors on Hagstrom, Geographia and other commercial maps. (e.g. Hagstrom has Linda Ct. off E. 83rd St. near Ditmas Av.) in Brooklyn. Cartographer probably named it for his wife, girl friend or daughter.
Anyway, a recent court case rendered them useless, saying that a map was a "compilation of facts" and not copyrightable. Presumably someone has appealed this decision, however.
Great track book! Keep up the good work! And to think that when I first started riding for pleasure, (ca. 1962), track information was considered ultra top secret!
Bob Sklar
Keep up the good work! And to think that when I first started riding for pleasure, (ca. 1962), track information was considered ultra top secret!
Some cowardly bureaucrats want that to happen again.
That's like on Seinfeld where Kramer adopts the "Burkhardt Highway" and decides to paint over the lanes to make them "wide and luxurious"?
Also on Seinfeld, Jerry once gave his address as being on the 100 block of west 81st street. I'm not from New York, but wouldn't the 100 block be on east 81st street?
Mark
East and West is divided by 5th avenue. The numbers start at 0 and go up in either direction so there is a 100 block for both E and W.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> The numbers start at 0 and go up in either direction so there is a 100 block for both E and W. <<<
Of course 100 West 81st Street is definitely in a very low rise neighborhood, inhabited by an extremely transient population.
Tom
Oh, the numbers start at Zero at CPW in the case of streets in that area.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, 100 W. 81st Street is near Columbus Avenue. Between 59th and 110th, the zero point on the West Side is Central Park West, not 5th Avenue.
>>> Between 59th and 110th, the zero point on the West Side is Central Park West, not 5th Avenue. <<<
That is interesting, how do they handle the street numbers on 59th and 110th Streets? If they start with 0 at 5th Avenue, parallel blocks in the grid on the west side of the park will have different numbers.
Tom
I believe 5th Avenue is the dividing point on 59th and 110th (even though addresses across from the park are on Central Park South and Central Park North, respectively, so there would be no duplication if addresses on both sides started over at CPW).
>>parallel blocks in the grid on the west
side of the park will have different numbers. <<
happens all over Manhattan.
East 11th betwn Ave B-C 600's East Seventh 200's
And we won't even talk about addresses on the Avenues themselves.
>>parallel blocks in the grid on the west
side of the park will have different numbers. <<
Think he meant north & south sides of the same street could have different numbering, e.g. numbering on south side of 59th Street starts at Fifth with the Plaza Hotel, but north side starts at CPW which is Eight Avenue, so west of 8th, is the south side even-numbered from 300 up across the street from odd-numbering from 1 up on the north side?
(I doubt it, though. My bet is that the north side of 59th starts at 301 west of Eighth ... can anyone confirm?)
Actually 59th (or Cent Park South) stops at Columbua Circle. The old NY Colosium occupies the block between 58th and 60th between 8 (CPW) and 9th (Columbus), so the 300's do not exist. On West 59 west of 9th there are a few luxury highrises (which I think have fancy numbers like 1 & 2 Columbus Place, a large church, Roosevelt Hosp (address is known as 1000 10th Ave) and John Jay College, so there may not be any actual numbers on W59 between 9 & 10. I think west of 10th Ave you have 500's.
well, on the awning on the front of jerry's bldg there is the number 757. there can't be a 757 on the upper west side since it would be in the hudson.
Yes! The "Arthur Berkhardt Expressway" (or however its would be spelled), or the "A-B" for short. Completely made up. Also there is no "Mile 114" anywhere within New York City. Not only are there no mileage markers (except on the New England section of the NYS Thruway in The Bronx, which is only three miles) but even if they were, they would never go remotely that high. Since NYC is situated in a pocket of the state where the only thing to the south is ocean and the only thing immediately to the west is New Jersey, all mile markers would be low numbers.
I wonder why that inaccuracy was necessary. Certainly they could have used a real expressway, Van Wyck, Cross Bronx, whatever, and a realistc sounding localle ("exit 5", say.)
:-) Andrew
Yes, I always was wondering that too. After all they had numerous episodes where the mention real expressways.
Maybe they were afraid someone would really paint that expressway? :-)
The opening of the movie "The Out-of-Towners" (original 1970 version - with Jack Lemon and Sandy Dennis), supposedly in Ohio, was filmed in the East Hills section of Roslyn. You'll also see the Roslyn clock tower in the opening scene, as well as an Albertson Electric service van... it was on the way to our house in Roslyn Heights that day :-)
That's one of my favorite movies, and I never realized that. Ha, for once, New York is standing in for someplace else, instead of the other way around!
TV and movie writers' protocol is that you never use correct street names, addresses, bus or train lines or directions in fictional works. Somebody might try to seek out a character's 'house', or the real occupant of a mentioned address could sue over privacy. Hence the Ricardos' and Mertzes' oft-discussed watery address.
TV and movie writers traditionally used the fake "555" exchange for telephone numbers (or, in the Simpsons, KLondike-5) for the same reasons. That has gotten a bit hokey, as the numbers - unlike nonexistent street addresses - are obviously fake, so some writers have tried a different approach. In the fairly recent movie Magnolia, produced by New Line Cinema, calling a prominently featured telephone number gets you to a recording listing upcoming New Line movies.
"Magnolia", IMO, was one AWFUL movie.......
Kudos to Law and Order for trying to keep stuff straight. There was a story that starts out with a victim found in the precint. Apparently the detectives find that his metrocard was swiped on the m (Q?)32. Lt.Van Buren says "what's a guy who lives and works in Jackson Heights doing in our precint?". Det. Briscoe says "how do you know its JH" and she responds "my sister rides that bus when she comes to see me".
Addresses are changed to insure privacy of people who live at those addresses. The people who purchased the De Feo residence in Amityville, LI from the people who wrote the "Amityville Horror House" book had to petition the village to allow them to build an addition to the front of the house and to the Post Office to change the house number to keep away the curious at all times especially on Halloween. Now when someone comes onto Ocean Ave looking for the house the neighborhood kids delight in saying that you have the wrong Ocean Ave. and then proceed to direct you to Ocean Avenue in nearby Massapequa.
AIUI, there's been a bit of a similar problem with the house that was used for the exterior shots of the Bradys' house in "The Brady Bunch." It's a real house somewhere in Southern California, and even though the exterior is modified (and even though they pasted at least one window onto the upper story before taking the exterior shots, so they don't match anyway), the owners have had to erect a fence and take other measures to keep away people who come right up to their front windows, trying to get a glimpse of the Bradys' living room.
Interestingly, if you think about the layout of the interior of the Bradys' house as shown in the series, it seems to be physically impossible to build because much of the upstairs would be hanging over air. (OK, columns, but it would be a REALLY weird-looking house from the outside!)
-- Tim
[TV and movie writers' protocol is that you never use correct street names, addresses, bus or train lines or directions in fictional works....]
I seem to remember the short-lived BRONX ZOO, about a high school in the Bronx. One establishing shot looked like Theodore Roosevelt High School on Fordham Road, but another showed the 215th Street subway station (on the #1), which is in Manhattan. While the school can be reached from 207th (via Bx12) and from 225th (via Bx9), 215th is out.
The ALL IN THE FAMILY writers probably figured Astoria was the perfect blue-collar enclave for the Bunkers to live in, or that's how any writers who may have grown up in the area remember it. But according to the Queens address and numbering system, a named or numbered Street with the house number 704 could only be off 7th Avenue, which only exists in Whitestone or College Point. Unless it's Ridgewood, which is another story altogether.
A little bit of trivia.... The photo of the "Bunker" house at the beginning is actually in Glendale on Cooper Avenue across from St Johns cemetery. It;s the 3rd house in from the beverage center.
About Police Precincts, I remember on NY Undercover (which was set at the the 4th Precinct) once had an episode where some corrupt cops that had interacted with the stars were from the 23rd (a very real precinct). I thought this was great as the year before, my car was impounded by some equally corrupt cops at the real 23rd, and before I got it back (it took about a week to get my lawyer to have the judge toss the charges), they took every tool and cassette tape out of my vehicle. When I asked if they had maybe removed the items for safekeeping and had a voucher for me, I was told, "There were no items of any value in that car, you're getting it back just as we found it".
The mock up car Archie and Mike got stuck on looks to have been based on an R12/14, with 2 major mistakes...
1) Much too wide
2) The side roll signs show THREE destinations, not 2 terminals and a line decription......
Actually, they were coming from the Bronx, and I think the "train" was signed up as a "5" (at least judging by the destinations.) They mentioned that they would be changing trains at Grand Central, which would of course men the 7.
:-) Andrew
What is a "Loving Cup?"
A large metal trophy-like cup with handles, big enough to fit over one's head upside down. I have no idea why it is so called.
Loving Cup - because people love to get one?
Whoops - the men in the white coats are back.
Because it's big enough that two people can drink out of it at the same time, if their lips are adjacent to each other?
Dictionary.com says that a loving cup has usually has two handles, so that it can be passed from hand to hand at a banquet. Everybody drinks out of the same cup.
The only time a Lexington Av. LOCAL (as it was marked in the show) went to Flatbush from Woodlawn was late at night. In any case, she was actually riding on an IND R-1 or slightly later fitted with IRT destination rollers (black letters on white - reverse coloring). I don't know what station(s) the train entered and left during that episode, but I suppose there's a good possibility it was either Court St. or the lower level of 42nd St.
Bob Sklar
It was a studio in L.A.
Link
Probably filmed in Hollywood.
The train and the station are fake. This is Hollywood. At least the used a Lex station (Bleecker). OK , so it never really went to Flatbush. At least it was possible. It didn't go from Bleecker to Coney Island or something.
But that was the interior mock-up of a triplex, or did Lo-V's have transverse seats ?
The center post between the doors suggests a BMT standard; the sign arrangement suggets a Lo-V.
Then it was a 8'9" wide x 51' long Standard that was articulated, as the door windows suggest.
Now that you mention it, the door windows do suggest a Triplex. That studio mockup has a little bit of this and a little bit of that, for sure.
I've always thought that, beyond the legal issues, these "Geographical Mistakes" were to make
New Yorkers feel superior to all of the "rubes" out there who didn't
know any better.
So...didn't cha?
Subway grrl
Greetings-
I took NJ Transit from NY Penn Station to New Brunswick to attend Thanksgiving dinner.
First, I'd like to know when the Public Transportation and Safety Board (or even the Fire Department) is going to realize that having 500 people clamouring to the 2 exits to the departing track is a calamity waiting to happen. There were parents with toddlers and really young kids fighting with people with suitcases to get on the escalator that took you to the platform.
Second, who decided to run LESS trains on Thanksgiving? My 1:32pm train was so crowded that apparently NJT run a second train right behind us. Of course NJT doesn't tell anyone this until the train makes its second top in NJ.
Third, the train had 2 extra cars, cars that would not open doors because they did not reach the platform (Hey guess which car I was in?). And the conductor made a brilliant move - he start making announcements that people should start making their way to the cars that would allow you to exit. Yes, passengers that were standing because there were no seats were join by folks would wanted to get themselves into position so they could get off the train 4 stops later. "Yes, we are running late already so why don't we make it more confusing for the passengers?"
On the return ride the New Brunswick platform was packed, so much so we couldn't move to another spot and had to stay at the rear of the platform. Luckily the back 2 cars were empty and we managed to sit on the ride home.
Venting complete.
I guess NJT is a victim of its' own success.
NO riders are still victims of the same callous behavior exhibited by the 'Standard Railroad of the World'in earlier years.
To 4rider. This loading situation happens everyday. You were lucky, sometimes they unload a train while there loading one on the same staircase. Was your ticket collected? A lot of times we don't even see a conductor on the PM rush hour. But better days our coming. There are new staircases being built on the east end of the station. We get to use them only for detraining during the AM rush hour. They are helping and they will help when completed but unfortunately there ten years overdue and there taking forever to build (wonder why).
I just sent NJT an e-mail stating I believe Penn is a disaster waiting to happen and to open the extra stairways on holidays for exit.
I also suggested it is time for NJT to run half hour weekend service for part of the day.
I also suggested it is time for NJT to run half hour weekend service for part of the day.
It already does. Consider the express trains at 4:03p, 5:03p, 6:03p, and 7:09p.
That provides plenty of half-hour service on weekends OUTBOUND.
If you're talking about a different part of the day, well, I wish you luck!
First, I'd like to know when the Public Transportation and Safety Board (or even the Fire Department) is going to realize that having 500 people clamouring to the 2 exits to the departing track is a calamity waiting to happen
Penn Station has a total of four exits down to the platform per set of 2 tracks. I don't know which level you were on, but it is always crowded when people go for trains, weekends and weekdays. (Except for late nights)
There were parents with toddlers and really young kids fighting with people with suitcases to get on the escalator that took you to the platform.
People shouldn't be fighting, since the train's not going to leave until the set departure time. If they want seats, well this normally doesn't happen.
Second, who decided to run LESS trains on Thanksgiving? My 1:32pm train was so crowded that apparently NJT run a second train right behind us. Of course NJT doesn't tell anyone this until the train makes its second top in NJ.
Who said? NJ TRANSIT has added one weekend train at 1:54p to serve more passengers to the hourly service they have at that time.
I think you need to check on websites before you travel. NJ TRANSIT has notified plenty of passengers on its website, ALSO on www.nj.com/njtransit, very helpful info. about NJT schedules and service.
Third, the train had 2 extra cars, cars that would not open doors because they did not reach the platform (Hey guess which car I was in?). And the conductor made a brilliant move - he start making announcements that people should start making their way to the cars that would allow you to exit. Yes, passengers that were standing because there were no seats were join by folks would wanted to get themselves into position so they could get off the train 4 stops later. "Yes, we are running late already so why don't we make it more confusing for the passengers?"
How do you know? Was it a 12-car train? Usually, ALL of the doors on NJT trains (esp. Arrow III's) don't open, but a majority of them do. The doors should be opened to a close proximity of passenger entrance from the stairs.
Also, NJT crew will not close doors upon passengers who are trying to enter the train. It would be "stupid" to. Since NJT does NOT have a dispatcher to dispatch their trains, crews can better serve passengers. So what? Our 2:32p train sometimes left 2 minutes later to leave the platform empty so that no passengers outside will worry.
It is some responsibility for the passengers themselves to create a semblance of order. It's not like NJT is giving them train service, and everything's their fault, WHICH IS NOT TRUE.
If you regularly ride NJT, you may have better impressions. NJT IS working on projects at Penn Station to better serve passengers.
Check with NJT Schedules page for NJT project info. and schedules. (Including holiday schedules and travel "News")
This is enough time for now.
Why is it always crowded? Why are people rushing? Because the train is scheduled to leave at 1:32pm and at 1:29pm they tell everyone what track the train is on? I did not see ONE NJT person at those exits, telling people to slow down.
Did check NJT website. Had the long schedule with me. Took the 1:32pm train out of Penn and by the time it got to Newark it was already running late. For once, as a passenger, I didn't care if the train got into New Brunswick 10, 15, or 20 minutes late. As long as everyone got off the train safely. The NJT staff WAS concerned about ontime performance and their announcement created havoc. The aisles on those cars are equipped for 1 person to move back and forth. Tough to exit the train when there is already a string of people standing in the aisle.
If they have people walking through the cars on a regular basis because the cars aren't making it to the platform well, heck, isn't that a safety issue? Slip of the foot, dragged under the car, passenger is chopped meat. Would anyone notice?
Not the first time I've taken NJT, but I am always disappointed in the service. Minimal track space and 3 rail services running out of Penn Station = recipe for disaster.
and at 1:29pm they tell everyone what track the train is on?
Penn Sta. has its personnel call the departing train approx. 8-10 minutes BEFORE the train departs. Sometimes a little longer for AMTRAK trains long-distance.
I did not see ONE NJT person at those exits, telling people to slow down.
There are no people at the stairways to tell people to slow down. It is the passenger's responsibility in part (mostly) to keep themselves in order. Think about it. It is NOT NJT's fault that there are only FOUR stair or escalator-ways to the tracks. Why don't you blame the architect of Penn Sta. instead?
The aisles on those cars are equipped for 1 person to move back and forth. Tough to exit the train when there is already a string of people standing in the aisle.
People are not supposed to stand in aisles. On exceptionally crowded trains, (preferably all AM, PM rush) people crowd in the center door area, and in the vestibules, but NOT in the aisles.
If the train were that crowded, then there must've been over 1,000 people in that single train. Each EMU is designed to seat AT LEAST 105 people. Standees also can expand that amount. And with that capacity, the conductors must've had ALL 10 or 12 cars open.
Would it have hurt if you took the EXTRA train at 1:54p?
If they have people walking through the cars on a regular basis because the cars aren't making it to the platform well, heck, isn't that a safety issue? Slip of the foot, dragged under the car, passenger is chopped meat. Would anyone notice?
Are you saying that passengers can slip while walking out of the train? I've heard conductors say many, many times to "WATCH YOUR STEP WHEN LEAVING THE TRAIN." They don't even have to shout it either.
It is the conductor's responsibility to open car doors. I know one time when conductors said that only 8 cars would open the entire length from NY to Trenton. I signified that those conductors were just lazy and couldn't walk to the back to push more buttons to open more doors. Guess what? All 10 cars opened at Rahway. (Which SHOULD happen except for morning trains where traffic is less and the engineer stops BEFORE the end of the platform s/b)
Minimal track space and 3 rail services running out of Penn Station = recipe for disaster.
What minimal track space? Could you explain this further, please?
How many rail lines do you expect NJT to have out of NY? There possibly can't be any more. Have you noticed the design and the location of the tracks? Do you think MORE rail lines could fit through direct service to NY?
It was quite an experience to try and take this apart.
and at 1:29pm they tell everyone what track the train is on?
Penn Sta. has its personnel call the departing train approx. 8-10 minutes BEFORE the train departs. Sometimes a little longer for AMTRAK trains long-distance.
I did not see ONE NJT person at those exits, telling people to slow down.
There are no people at the stairways to tell people to slow down. It is the passenger's responsibility in part (mostly) to keep themselves in order. Think about it. It is NOT NJT's fault that there are only FOUR stair or escalator-ways to the tracks. Why don't you blame the architect of Penn Sta. instead?
The aisles on those cars are equipped for 1 person to move back and forth. Tough to exit the train when there is already a string of people standing in the aisle.
People are not supposed to stand in aisles. On exceptionally crowded trains, (preferably all AM, PM rush) people crowd in the center door area, and in the vestibules, but NOT in the aisles.
If the train were that crowded, then there must've been over 1,000 people in that single train. Each EMU is designed to seat AT LEAST 105 people. Standees also can expand that amount. And with that capacity, the conductors must've had ALL 10 or 12 cars open.
Would it have hurt if you took the EXTRA train at 1:54p?
If they have people walking through the cars on a regular basis because the cars aren't making it to the platform well, heck, isn't that a safety issue? Slip of the foot, dragged under the car, passenger is chopped meat. Would anyone notice?
Are you saying that passengers can slip while walking out of the train? I've heard conductors say many, many times to "WATCH YOUR STEP WHEN LEAVING THE TRAIN." They don't even have to shout it either.
It is the conductor's responsibility to open car doors. I know one time when conductors said that only 8 cars would open the entire length from NY to Trenton. I signified that those conductors were just lazy and couldn't walk to the back to push more buttons to open more doors. Guess what? All 10 cars opened at Rahway. (Which SHOULD happen except for morning trains where traffic is less and the engineer stops BEFORE the end of the platform s/b)
Minimal track space and 3 rail services running out of Penn Station = recipe for disaster.
What minimal track space? Could you explain this further, please?
How many rail lines do you expect NJT to have out of NY? There possibly can't be any more. Have you noticed the design and the location of the tracks? Do you think MORE rail lines could fit through direct service to NY?
It was quite an experience to try and take this apart.
I didn't know you could buy shares in NJT. The way you defend them one might get the impression that you owned stock in them. Maybe if you put up with NJTs crap every single day, as the original poster obviously does, you would sing a different tune.
Peace,
ANDEE
What's your favorite transit system SUBWAYSURF?
That scenario described is exactly why I choose not to work any trains in or out of New York, I paid my dues there for about a year and a half. I currently stick with the nice, civilized, organized Raritan Valley Line!
As part of my annual monitoring of Amtrak's on time performance, I discovered that there were errors in the public timetable. For example, train 1174 was printed to run Sunday, November 25 only. Guess what? It also ran Wednesday, November 21.
Train 1099 ran on Sunday, Nov 25 even though it's not in the public timetable.
If Amtrak thinks everybody in America gets their train data from their web page and not printed timetables, they are making a big mistake.
Michael
Are you looking at the special timetable Amtrak printed for the holiday period of November 21-25? Other holiday extras (most on the 3000 series) were listed. The timetable says that it supercedes the regular timetable for these dates.
I'm looking at the special holiday timetable, not the regular timetable. Train 1174 is printed as running Sunday only, not Wednesday.
Holiday specials in the 3000 series operated between Washigton and New York. There were holiday specials in the 1000 series operating between Washington and Boston.
Michael
After the Thanksgiving timetables were printed Amtrak added a few more trains to handle demand. It's not that they intentionally left them off the timetables to keep them a secret or anything.
I suspect that most passengers would look at the printed timetable, not the web page to find out train schedules. Furthermore, why would anybody think that the web page would show additional trains than those printed in the timetable?
To me, it looks like Amtrak can't coordinate. It would have been better to run those extra extra trains as second sections instead of giving them a separate number. I bet some of them weren't filled to capacity because most of the travelling public didn't know they existed.
Michael
I would guess that Most of the riding public doesn't use web pages for things like that - they call a ticketing office and say " I need tickets from point A to point B on such and such a date."
The point is, Amtrak didn't know they were going to run those trains until after the special timetables were printed. Amtrak was adapting to high demand by adding more extra service. This is a Good Thing.
The ticket agents, machines, phone operators, and yes, the web page all offered tickets on the added trains. You can't buy a ticket from a timetable. And to be honest, so many people who travel over Thanksgiving don't/can't use the timetables, I would expect they just depend on the ticket agents (and machines, phone operators, web pages...) to tell them what's available.
As for running the extra extra trains as second sections, who knows if the additional equipment was free at those times, vs. when they were finally scheduled to run. Amtrak did used to run second (well, actually, advance) sections in the last few years, it seems they've moved away from that idea this fall.
My memory could be fading because of age, but wasn't there an underground connection between the BMT stop at 34th and 6th Avenue and Penn Station? To get to the Q at 34th from Penn, you have to walk outside on 34th street one block (assuming you exit at 7th Avenue and 32nd).
Michael
Yes, there was a connection but, they sealed it up years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for the info. I knew I wasn't going crazy at 50. Do you know why the connections was sealed?
Michael
Mostly due to crime considerations and the fact that it had become a large dormitory/urinal for the homeless.
Peace,
ANDEE
When was it sealed? I think I remember the passageway, because I remember seeing N,R on a sign at Penn Station.
and Gimbals went out of business
Initially it was just closed and you could still see it. It was physically sealed about 12 years ago give or take a year.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not only was it a hang out for the homeless, I remember it leaking like a sieve whenever there was a heavy rain.
I used to walk the tunnel on inclement days to go to/from Penn to a client of the firm's at 1250 Broadway, when the Empire Savings Bank was the bank in the building.
The firm stopped servicing the client around 1983 while the tunnel was still decent, so therefore the date of the sealing up is probably the mid to late 80's.
If I remember correctly the connection on the Penn side was right on the E/S of the IRT Station at 33rd Street. There were display windows from Gimbles on both sides. Since there is a crossunder at that IRT Station out of fare control you were able to walk from Penn to the BMT/IND station at 34th & 6th completely underground.
Now correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not sure. Wasn't there also a pedestrian tunnel connecting the 42nd and 34th Street 6th Av IND Stations? If so you were able to walk from 42nd and 6th by the library all the way to Penn completely underground. However I don't think the tunnel connecting the IND and the "7" Line at 5th Av was built yet.
That's a long tunnel! When was it closed. Are there any other "lost connections in the subway system?
There was a tunnel from 14st/8th ave to 14th/7th, I think. So you used to be able to walk an entire L line station while underground.
What use would that have been for? It seems cool to have been able to do that, but why would they have spent the money to construct it? When did they close it?
That one is clearly visible from the IRT station at 14th and 7th. I suspect it is a breeding ground for rats, who are particularly evident in the stations connected to it.
:-) Andrew
Yes, if you look at old Subway maps, there was a free transfer from the 1.2.3 lines to the L at 8th Ave (in addition to the current transfer at 6th).
Are you sure that passageway wasn't outside fare control?
Aw, hell you may be right. I must have been dreaming.
Yes it ended at 40th St Fare Control and started at 35th St
While there was a tunnel between the 34th and 42nd St stations under 6th Ave., to get from that tunnel to the tunnel which connected the south ends of the the BMT & IND stations at Herald Square to Penn Station, you either had to go outside, or pay a fare and walk along the IND (or BMT) platform.
-- Ed Sachs
No at one time you could walk free of charge from 32nd St Exit to 40th St, it involved twisting and turning between 32 and 35th but it was outside the fare zone, Used to do it all the time when my dad worked at 32nd and Bdwy
Here is an article the Bergen Record published in 1991 on the pedestrian tunnel between 34th and 42nd Streets.
-----
TRANSIT AGENCY SHUTS CRIME-RIDDEN TUNNEL
CONCEDES THE ACTION WAS OVERDUE
An underground pedestrian tunnel between subway stations was the site of dozens of crimes last year, and the transit police tried to get it closed.
Plans to close the path became lost in a bureaucratic maze until Wednesday, when a 22-year-old woman was raped there during the evening's rush hour.
On Friday, the gates were padlocked. Transit Authority officials said they should have acted sooner to close the crime-ridden subway tunnel where three women were raped and two others were sexually assaulted during the last nine months.
The walkway, which links the 34th Street and 42nd Street subway stations on Sixth Avenue, was closed by an emergency request of the transit police early Thursday.
The crime rate in the tunnel had grown so severe that after a rape on July 25, 1990, the transit police formally requested in a letter that the Transit Authority close the passageway.
The request "got wound up in the normal process," of public hearings, said TA spokesman Jared Lebow. "In retrospect, it should have been highlighted more forcefully; most probably action would have been taken and it would have been closed," Lebow said.
"Unfortunately, you learn a lesson the hard way. I think we learned a lesson," Lebow added.
Since the July 30, 1990, letter to the Transit Authority, two women were raped, one woman was the victim of an attempted rape, and another was sexually assaulted in the passageway, said transit police spokesman Al O'Leary.
TA President Alan Kiepper said Friday he would review transit police recommendations regarding any other high-crime walkways and subway tunnels, and would order emergency closings if they were warranted.
"In hindsight, we regret not being more forceful earlier on, to get the passageway closed," O'Leary said. "We might have prevented the last four sex crimes."
Transit police increased patrols after the July 1990 rape, but "it is a horror of a passageway to patrol because of the bends and rises; there's no clear sight line," O'Leary said.
On Sept. 20, 1990, Transit Authority officials wrote back to the police and said they had discussed closing the tunnel with the local community board, which agreed with the transit police.
The proposal was presented along with numerous other subway changes in a series of four public hearings held in February, and was scheduled to go before the board of the Metropolitan Transit Authority next month.
It's amazing they didn't close down the whole subway system in those years.
Here's a little item (a letter) from the New York Times from February 4, 1984. No follow-up, unfortunately.
---
To the Editor:
The proposal by a developer to ease subway riders' burden by building a pedestrian tunnel between 52d and 53d Streets connecting the IRT and IND stations received wide publicity in New York City newspapers.
On the other hand, the existing pedestrian tunnel at 33d Street, which connects Penn Station with IRT, BMT, IND and PATH stations but has been closed for almost four years (allegedly for safety reasons), receives no publicity even though thousands of commuters are inconvenienced daily and officials have yet to say when repairs will be started.
It should be opened again. Now that the other PATH line is damaged those poor people could use any connection they can get!
Since I live on the south shore of LI and my mom lives in the Kew Gardens area, I always use the Van Wyck when I visit her. I always have a first-hand look at the progress of AirTrain construction.
I really am wondering whether enough people are going to use the AT to justify its immense cost. The way AT is set up, its just not convenient for anyone leaving from the east side of Manhattan. In fact, without east side access to the LIRR it makes little sense at all.
For example, say you're leaving from 210 East 68th Street, between Lex and Third. You'd first have to lug your luggage to the 68th Street stop on the 6 and ride to 51st and switch for an E. This would require lugging your stuff up and down a few stairways and escalators. Then, assuming you get a seat on the E (not very likely during business hours), you ride down to Sutphin Blvd and then have to lug the luggage back up a few escalators and stairs to get on the AT platform.
Alternatively, this same traveler could opt to go to Penn Station instead and take the LIRR to the AT. However, this would require the traveler to lug the luggage onto the 6, ride to Grand Central, lug the luggage back upstairs to the shuttle to Times Square, and then lug it back down stairs for the 1/2/3. Alternatively, the traveler could also take a downtown E from Lexington/53rd and ride to 34th/Penn Station. However, much lugging is still required.
Wouldn't this person rather just take a cab from East 68th and forget all the lugging? That would defeat the entire purpose of the AirTrain. It just doesn't make sense to me.
AirTrain is not intended for people with luggage. It is only supposed to serve business people carrying only a briefcase. The PA is trying to capture some of the cab revenue. Anyone with luggage should still take a cab.
Don't most people traveling to an airport have more than just a briefcase? Did the PA spend all that money just to capture the briefcase crowd? Seems hard to believe.
Or, those with luggage can take a cab to Penn Station.
Why do that? Just stay in the cab, pay a few bucks more and relax all the way to JFK.
While that may be the case, usually, the "briefcase only" crowd takes their flights out of LaGuardia for the day trips to D.C., Boston or other northeast cities. JFK traditionally is for longer distance domestic and international flights, where people are more likely to be toting suitcases.
JFK has extra capacity to accomodate new flights, LGA does not.
JFK has room for expansion, LGA does not.
JFK can support wide-body aircraft, LGA cannot.
JFK can support wide-body aircraft, LGA cannot.
Some widebodies have served LGA in the past, mainly DC-10's and L-1011's, although I don't believe any do so now on a regular basis. According to a recent thread on airliners.net, one of those huge Antonov transports flew into LGA not long ago, bringing a part for a disabled plane. And LGA's runways are both about 7,000 feet, the same length as the runway at SXM (St. Maarten), which regularly handles 747's.
I don't disagree with your statements, but day trippers with briefcases and not suitcases who are headed to Washington D.C. want to fly into National = smaller planes = LaGuardia, and that is the main shuttle route in the northeast.
Business travelers are the people most likely to be able to use AirTrain without hassle, but JFK is not the airport they're using or are going to be using anytime in the immedate future (Logan in Boston can handle the wider bodies, but if you think they're going to be running a Delta shuttle between there and JFK anytime soon, I've got a decaying bridge next to the Brooklyn I'd like to sell you...).
We really need the Air train to continue to La Guardia some how tho connect the two airports, and the whole AirTrain system.
Using smaller planes is inefficient.
Unless there are so few passengers that they can only fit one small plane a day, then it makes more sense to use higher capacity planes and run fewer of them.
Unless there are so few passengers that they can only fit one small plane a day, then it makes more sense to use higher capacity planes and run fewer of them.
Only up to a point. Schedule flexibility is essential for many passengers, and it also takes a significantly shorter amount of time to load and unload smaller aircraft, meaning less gate time and more efficient use of the plane (more flights per aircraft). When I travel I prefer the smaller aircraft because of the gate time issue, especially since I travel steerage :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Schedule flexibility is essential for many passengers, and it also takes a significantly shorter amount of time to load and unload smaller aircraft <<<
Also a consideration is how many passengers can go through the air terminal at one time. Three planes each loading or discharging 150 passengers over an hour's time is easier on the infrastructure than one plane discharging or loading 450 passengers at one time.
Tom
But with the shuttle runs you're talking about multiple runs per day of smaller planes, based on set hourly or half-hourly schedules. Eastern started it 40 years ago, running the flights from N.Y. to Boston and D.C. in the same manner the Pennsy, N.Y. Central, Greyhound and Trailways ran their trains and buses.
The frequency of the flights benefitted the customers and negated the need for the larger capacity planes, and the smaller planes are the ones that can and do use LaGuardia, and National for that matter. If you use larger planes, the shuttles would have to run from JFK to Dulles or BWI, and while AirTrain might make JFK access as convienient as LGA, neither Dulles nor BWI are anywhere near as handy to downtown Washington as National is (BWI at least has MARTA access from Union Station; Dulles has only the toll road until they figure out if they're ever going to build the WMATA extension from Tyson's Corner).
By that reasoning, the Division of Buses should switch to a 100% articulated fleet (except for those routes that only run one bus per day).
And, to be honest, day trippers who only carry a briefcase (or a pilot's case), usually work for a company that allows them to expense a cab ride. I don't see them using public transportation and AirTrain to make it to the airport (unless there is a major problem with the roadways.)
I, for one, plan to use it. When I travel to New York from Los Angeles, I arrive at JFK, use the free shuttle bus to the Howard Beach subway station, take the A train to 42nd Street, then the E to Lexington Avenue. The shuttle bus is easily a half-hour ordeal and I look forward to an all-rail trip.
Plenty of people use the shuttle bus - A train method of travel to and from JFK airport, people with luggage, admittedly the budget travel crowd, not the chauffered limousine set.
I will use it also when my flight goes to JFK. The airtrain at Newark is excellent. This new link will certainly make for an easier journey into Manhattan. The shuttle bus should be a compulsory ride for all of those who cannot see the benefits the air train will bring.
Simon
Swindon UK
The question is not in what benefits it will bring; the question is in what benefits it could have brought had it been planned somewhat differently.
And since the shuttle bus will be discontinued once the AirTrain is running, the budget travel crowd will have to drive to JFK.
If the Howard Beach branch of the AirTrain were operated as an A train extension, I'd suggest the 6 to the 4/5 to the A. (If I wanted to avoid lugging, I'd take a quick cab ride across town to Columbus Circle and grab the A there.) But it's not, so you're probably best off with the E. Don't bother going to Penn Station; it'll take longer and cost more.
is the AIR TRAIN able to run 60ft cars only?
60 foot cars? AT uses specially designed cars. I don't know their length.
The AirTrain cars are 60 feet long, but the system is not compatable with the NYC subway cars, so the idea of hooking up, say, the J train (which also only uses 60-foot cars) to AirTrain if the original plan falls on its face would be impractical without some major retooling and retrofitting.
In their ultimate wisdom, they could have at least constructed it to be compatible with NYCT standards.
Why? Where's the physical connection b/w AirTrain and any subway line?
That's my point. I think it should have connected somewhere.
Like at Howard Beach, where there will instead be a passenger transfer connection.
iut is the port authrity not NYCTA.
stop construction replace with regular subway 911!!
The AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the TA's R-32/38/40/42/143 cars.
Really? Wow, they look smaller from vantage point on the Belt Parkway.
IS airtrain a subway or monorail?
None of the above.
Arti
so what is it?
It's a railroad.
narrow gauge, or what technoligie it uses, magnetic,?
I'll bail.
Arti
so what is it?
Is it a Light Rail System?
The SkyTrain/Airtrain is supposed to be a light rail transport system of a gauge incompatable with NYC subways. Thirty two cars were ordered. They can run independently or in trainsets of up to four utilising one attendent.....no T/O. Nearly a billion PA/TA bucks for a 'train to nowheres.' Peter
Are you sure the gauge is incompatible? I heard that the original plans were for a monorail/peoplemover type operation, but that Port Authority 'higher ups' got second thoughts and went with standard two-rail ops because the concensous was that if ever PATH wanted to 'get out of running the Airtrain' (aka sell it off to MTA or another rail operator) that being standard RR gauge would be a 'selling point' and easy enough conversion for use by either NYCT R-type cars or LIRR M's.
BMTman
While I was doing my old work and prepared myself for TA, I read everything. There was a special website for Bombardier SkyTrain which was not part of their 'Ad' site. It explained the SkyTrain concept, the JFK system and systems already active. It would make great sense for RR compatability...parts n all considered. What bugs me is the whole contract: huge bolted together prestressed concrete forms over the highway where a monorail would have done better and 32 CBTC type cars that will have to work from the get-go versus the R142s from Plattsburg. Something is amiss and I wish I were better positioned. Peter
So IS it standard-gauge rail? 'Cause a news article a few months ago referred obliquely to the possibility of direct service from Penn Station through Jamaica ... but gave no details.
???
I thought it was, but after hearing some of the posts here, I'm not too sure. Does anyone know?
Last I heard was that it was not compatible with the subway, but the guage was the same (standard), so it could be possible to build cars that worked on both the Airtrain, subway, and LIRR.
Dimolish airtrain, leave supports, build elevated subway with 4 feet 10 inch rails.
Build a line with that gauge, I hope you have fun trying to run subway trains on it.
or 4 feet 8 inches.
I really am wondering whether enough people are going to use the AT to justify its immense cost. The way AT is set up, its just not convenient for anyone leaving from the east side of Manhattan. In fact, without east side access to the LIRR it makes little sense at all.
The majority of the users will be airport employees, who will now have a more convenient way to get from the employee parking lot to the terminal area. These employees will not be charged to use AirTrain, as opposed to the general public. The second largest class of users will be motorists using the long term parking lot. Their AirTrain fare will be included in the parking fee.
Many employees have been forced to carpool or live in neighborhoods with good public transit access to the airport like Kew Gardens because of the long trip to the employee parking lot and the lack of parking spaces close to their work stations. The AirTrain will permit them to use their own private car and live where they choose.
Similarly the inconvenience of the long term lot has force many passengers to consider using taxis, airport limousines or public transit. The parking lot station on the AirTrain will wisk these passengers to their terminal in about the same overall time that it currently takes for walking from the short term parking lots.
So fine, the PA should have built a short line from the parking lots to the terminals or anywhere else they needed to go within the airport. Your explanation, though reasonable, does not justify extending the line all the way to Jamaica.
Besides Crew Gardens it is very difficult to get a cab to or from that part of Queens to the Airport.
Your explanation, though reasonable, does not justify extending the line all the way to Jamaica.
No justification, based on patronage, is possible.
AirTrain was 100% funded by a federal program to improve airport access. The spurs to Howard Beach and Jamaica were necessary to secure appoval. Whether these spurs are actually useful is completely extraneous. The PA could not get outside funding for the in airport AirTrain facilities without such "outreach" spurs. Think of them as "affirmative action".
ripping off the government. remember the PA is has all power with no responsibility, "it has a combination of private and government sectors unlike any other government orginazation"
I think the AirTrain is made for people that live in Long Island and needs to get to the airport or just someone that want's a cheap way to the airport.
will is have free transfer to subway or bus, I think not!
Well, to answer the title of the thread: at first it will be RAILFANS who'll be riding the AirTrain before it 'takes off' with the public.
As with the opening of the Hudson Bergen Light Rail Line, the majority of riders that I encountered were fellow rail enthusaists who were riding the line out of curiosity (that lasted for the first few months).
Now with the WTC tragedy -- and no Exchange Place connection on PATH -- the general public has taken to the HBLR for the Pavonia/Newport station. Hopefully, the public will use the AirTrain w/o waiting for a tragedy to occur.
BMTman
Your Mom lives in Kew Gardens otherwise known as Crew Gardens so your should already realize who the major users will be.
For almost anyone with major luggage any type of train to plain is going to be a pain unless they live at an elevator stop and their connection is cross platform.
You hit the nail on the head as far as the Upper East Sider traveler goes. Few if any from the area will take AirTrain. Keep in mind how important that zip code (10021) is, as residents from this area travel by air more than residents of any other zip code in the country. These people are less likely to utilize AirTrain for the reasons you've stated, in addition to obvious reasons as well.
But there must be enough airport employees, airline personnel, and most of all, travelers, who will use this service in order to justify the cost of constructing it.
That is why they should have used LIRR compatible rolling stock for the airtrain and rebuild the abandoned Roackaway Branch for a direct ride to Penn Station, and later (East Side Access) to Grand Central Terminal.
I think you missed his point. Most frequent travellers from there are on business trips (the company pays the limo) or are on pleasure trips and are mostly wealthy. If you are going to Paris for two weeks with lots of luggage a $40 cab ride is not a lot to pay for not lugging your crap around.
If you like try lugging 100 pound of luggage from 42nd Lex to the lower platform and GCS.
>>> If you are going to Paris for two weeks with lots of luggage a $40 cab ride is not a lot to pay for not lugging your crap around. <<<
There is an unspoken assumption by many in this thread that the Airtrain must carry every traveler to JFK in order to be successful. Of course there will be those at the high end who will take taxis or limos to the airport whether or not there is an Airtrain. It is unlikely that many of those flying on the Concorde, or even in first class will ride the Airtrain.
I can still remember when I was traveling around Europe on $5.00 a day and pinching pennies (and in London ha' pennies). I ran into many other travelers who did not have much money to spare. They included students, budget tourists who had saved all year for the trip, people visiting family members, and independent businessmen who did not have an expense account. They willingly risk blood clots in their legs to be shoehorned into narrow seats to save a few bucks. These will be the customers for the Airtrain. They will find a way to shlep their less than extensive luggage on public transportation. There are many of these people out there. Build the Airtrain and they will come.
Tom
But it still would not be the convenient even if it did run to Penn and GCP.
This is not perfect but it does give another option. For people in Queens without cars it is a big break.
I see plenty of people right here in Chicago riding the Blue Line from O'Hare or the Orange from Midway schlepping bags, including people with the single enormous post-carry-on-restriction "steamer trunk with a handle and wheels" bag. They aren't popular with rush-hour riders, but that's another issue. :^)
With all due respect, Chicago is not New York. People here are not tolerant of inconvenience and delay if another alternative is readily available.
express buses they make a million and are profitably
Express busses are NOT profitable. They cost more, yet are less profitable than local busses.
so why in 99 or 98 the QM's started rolling. were there any express buses before the QM's rolled, other than the X buses?
This is just bullshit and typical New York arrogance.
Sorry, but what's good for one city IS good for another.
Baffling; half the travelers won't be from New York.
Actually more than half, most users will take the FREE ride within the airport. Most users wil never leave the airport.
That is another problem wih having it as MTA no way will NYers want anyone getting a free ride when a fare hike happens.
concorde pasengers using public transportation, if they can travel on the concorde and not a regular plane they have the money to us a taxi. the airtrain will be where all the bums will live. remember that there is no human operator.
Actually that is not quite true. The norm will be for unmanned operation but the cars can also be manned (not that important but some wondered why there are cabs).
There will be Customer Service Agents which is a nice way to say nonunion conductors at the stations and on the train too.
Besides the bums prefer access to the city.
Do you mean me? :)
Simon
Swindon UK
MAke me chairman of MTA for that to happen I swear (I'am honast) will fund the project with my paycheck I don't need $700,000 a year.
How many inches will that money you pledge build?
Arti
30 feet
Impossible!
aRTI
random guess
Where are your qualifications?
How do you expect to eat?
$100,000 a year is enough for anybody who doesn't indulge in the rich life.
You know, of course, they built it for the railfans!! We have a voice! :-)
If they were building lines for railfans, the 2nd Avenue line would've been running years ago.
they build every thing that is not needed but never build anything that is needed.
While attending a train show yesterday, I noticed a dealer selling a 2-car add-on set of the MTH E Train. His asking price was $150.00. I asked him why the price was so high, and he told me that each car had a destination sign on it for the World Trade Center which made it very collectible. He apparently sold it before the show was over because it was gone from his table when I passed later.
Is it really fair to charge a price like this because of a disaster?
I feel those used cars were worth about $100.00, at the most.
Fair, maybe not. But worth it? Someone thought it was worth it if it was gone at the end of the show.
Another arguement against Captialism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow! I have all six of the cars. Four were just placed in my new "Rail Commuting" showcase display. Does this mean that I'm getter richer by the day and will soon have to hire a guard for the showcase?
Don't worry. If MTH makes R9s, they can put "Hudson Terminal" as a destination. By that time we might be using it again.
Karl, actually that price wasn't too steep since Trainland (in LI) has a 2-car add-on of the 'D' train (w/blue stripe) going for $150.00.
Maybe that price was $15-$20 over what would have been the average for the 'E' train sets. BTW, most MTH collectors prefer the 'D' train sets not only because of the classic TA blue-stripe treatment, but also because the R-42's DID run on the Brighton Line with those markings while the R-42's never ran on the 'E' Line (at least not in GOH condition).
BMTman
Yeaterday, a pair of the Blue Stripe add-on cars was listed on E-Bay. With 7 hours to go, the bid was also $150.00.. Looks like normal market forces at work.
Somehow I can understand the price for a D Train add-on.
Is it just me, or is the D Train more pleasing to the eye than the E with that blue stripe? The D Train will also always be known as the first subway set mass produced. MTH must have different voices doing the announcements on the two trains as well. I can clearly understand the D announcements, but I can barely make out the E announcements, and I supposedly know the stops. Someone told me that the guy who does the D voice is a former SubTalker
You can tell I am still sold on the D Train, and haven't given up hopes of getting that used set.
I think in the long run that the R-21 set will be the one that really appreciates in price. Even with the hideous gap between cars, the redbird type color just does wonders for the set. If train shows are any guage, the R-21 is the hardest to find with the R-42 D right behind it. The E Train seems to be the one that turns up for sale the most.
Before anyone jumps me on this, I know that the blue stripe is on the D, and that is what makes it more attractive,
I should have proofread that last post before posting it.
The sentence should read...
Is it just me, or is the D Train with the blue stripe more pleasing to the eye than the E?
I'm Sorry!!!
Trainland in Lynbrook had at least one set of the R-21's the last time I was there & the hobby shop in Freeport had a set of the Chicago cars.
Mr rt__:^)
Yeah and IIRC they are asking about $200.00 above the MSRP. I've already reserved my R-17 set. If you are planning to get one, I wouldn't take chances.
One set of R-21s just sold on E-bay. Last price I saw was $265 but I'm sure the final price was higher
I have to agree. I put the short couplers on mine. When mine come off the yard lead with the green markers illuminated and the red home signal lit - it's got the D and the E set beat by a mile. BTW. The Proto-sound2 speed control, horn and announcements on the R-21 are far superior to anything on the previous 2 subway sets. Last night, I left my 21s sitting at a home signal for a minute while I was checking connections and the 'cab chatter' started - T/O calling the tower. I can only hope that the R-17s are as good.
how difficult was it to put on the short couplers? what did mth charge for them? also, have you heard about some kind of high temperature problem with the r-21s.
thanks
john
2 short couplers are included with the set. You can do each coupler in 5 to 10 minutes if you are careful - withut removing the truck. Just make sure not to lose the little 'E' clip or washer. MTH also sells the short couplers for $3.00 each plus shipping. To do the 4 car train you need 7 couplers. The front couple on the power car should not be done as it interfaces witht he proto-sound module.
By the way, the cars will operate over O-31 track with the short couplers but not over O-27 curves or over some X-overs with O-42 switches.
TD -- are you aware that some of the 'cab chatter' from the R-21's makes reference to 'Taking of Pelham, 1-2-3'? It's a random announcment where the T/O is calling the tower. I forgot the exact dialogue, but it's there somewhere...
The guy who supplied the announcements for MTH did it as an ad-lib...
BMTman
No, but thanks for letting me know. After changing the couplers and testing, I had put them away until now. I just unpacked them Sunday night. I've now modified my construction schedule. One hour of work and one hour of play - just like the real thing :-)
Are you going to install Santa in the cab of you big RED train ?
How about a flat with full of little presents or a cattle car full of raindeer ?
Mr rt__:^)
I am trying to come up with a list of stations that are not geting repaired but that desperatly need it, or face sereve consequnces in the future. This is what I have so far by the lines
1/2/3 - 72nd Street, 96 Street, 59 Street
4/5/6- 125 Street, 138 Street
1/2/4/5- Atlantic Avenue, Utica Avenue
A/C/E- Jay Street, High Street, 50 Street, 59 Street
B/D/F/V- 14 Street, 23 Street
J/M/Z- Bowery, Delancey, Chambers
N,R- Station along R Brooklyn Route
N- Sea Beach Stations
B- West End Stations
I know there have to be more but I dont ride other lines that often enough to create a good datebase, I am doing this for research reasons only, not to annoy the MTA. Cause I want to create station drawings of how stations would look after renovations and I want the Subway Fans here to see them first.
72ST ON THE 1/2/3 IS UNDERGOING A BIG FIXUP RIGHT NOW. 96TH IS A BIT OLD, BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS IN DEPERATE SHAPE. THE SAME FOR 59.
ON THE 1 LINE, THE 191 STATION IS IN REAL BAD SHAPE, IT COULD USE SOME WORK MORE THAN JUST ABOUT ANYOTHER ON THE LINE (EXCEPT BELOW CHAMBERS).
PIGGO
The side walls have been removed (or have fallen down) at 96th Street around the middle of the station.
All 1/2/3 mainline stations south of 72nd have all been recently rehabbed (or are in process of rehab), except 59th, 14th, and Chambers. I'd like to see the rehab program continue to the north and cover the three missing stations. There's nothing urgent here, though.
What about 28th Street? It hasn't been rehabbed lately either, has it?
- Lyle Goldman
I'm pretty sure it was rehabbed in the 80's or early 90's.
It was, just before the 33rd St. rehab and at a time when the MTA was a little unfocused on what it wanted to do with its rehab project (see 53rd St.-Fifth Ave.)
Really? It looks just how it probably looked in the 60's or 70's when it was first extended. (Remember I'm talking about 28th Street on the Seventh Avenue Line.).
- Lyle Goldman
My mistake -- I thought you were talking about 28th at Park Ave. (neighborhood provincialism, since 23rd St. used to be my home station).
I know which station you're referring to. As I said, I'm pretty sure it's been rehabbed. There's one easy way to check: the platform edge treatment. If it's a simple painted yellow stripe and a wide rough orange strip, it hasn't been rehabbed, at least not since the mid-80's. The piece of plastic with slightly raised circles came next, and was used in the late 80's -- the new stations opened then use this style. Then came my favorite, the textured black plastic with two rows of narrow bright orange tile, in the early 90's. The latest style is the highly textured bright yellow plastic. (There have also been one-shot experiments, like the awful painted floor at 23rd. I don't know when that was done.)
So what edge treatment does 28th have? I think it has the slightly raised circles, which means it was rehabbed in the late 80's. Am I wrong?
Add Lexington/53, Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Avenue, all E,F to your list.
NYCT is addressing the problems at Bowery and Chambers in the Nassau Street Line Reconstruction project. Chambers must have been a really grand station once, cathedral ceilings and all.
Add Lexington/53, Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Avenue, all E,F to your list.
Ditto! And also add several of the outer Queens Blvd. line stations such as Van Wyck "Boulevard", and especially 179th Street, and let's also throw in 5th Ave/53rd St, which is really too young a refurbrishing to look that way.
:-) Andrew
Chambers Street BMT is in the advanced stages of decay, and the yucky coat of brown paint they threw up on the ceiling is the equivalent of putting a Band-Aid(TM) on an advanced case of malignant melanoma. It is only a matter of time until the rumbling of the subway trains shakes something big, heavy and dangerous loose, i.e. the station ceiling or part thereof.
There used to be crown halophane lights suspended from the ceiling or affixed to the lower ceilings with short caps. I think only two of these are left (on the closed n/b platform) and are missing their glass globes. The pink marble pilasters also need fixing. I agree, it must have been quite a place when new. Water has ruined it.
wayne
As stated, Chambers St on the JMZ has to be one of the worst stations in the system, if not the worst. However it must have been really great in it's day. Let's have a vote on what you think is the worst station in the system currently!
We did that at one time so I don't know what kind of response you will get. I am not too privy on the IRT, but on the BMT is would be Chambers on the J/M/Z, and on the IND it would be Lex/53rd.
On the IRT I pick 191 Street.
I'd have to vote for Broadway on the G. I still haven't found out where that brown slime comes from. And Myrtle-Willoughby ain't too hot either considering that it's half abandoned.
The whole G line has become the stepchild. It will get worse when the G is cut back to Court Square and it becomes even less important.
Chambers or Bowery on the BMT
Lex/53rd on the IND
Grand Central/7 train platoform on the IRT
:-) Andrew
IRT:1,9 From 125 Street to Dyckman street
IND:Lex/53 Street
BMT:Chambers(J,M,Z) All local stations North of Canal(N,R) exept 49 Street
All local stations North of Canal(N,R) exept 49 Street
49th is a pretty cool station. I liked it ever since I was a kid. I think it was done as some sort of experiment, with soundproofing and stuff like that (anyone know?)
In the 70's it was one of the only stations that actually looked good when the entire subway system was in shambles. This station is one of the only times I would not like to see them restore the original mosaics.
What about the Brooklyn Sea Beach stations after the portal exit? Those stations are run down with debris, peeling paint and a general untidiness born of neglect on the part of the damn TA. Ride the line sometime and look at the condition of those stations. It is enough to make you sick.
What about 9 Street on the F,M nd R.The TA let that corrode and become more delapidated by the day.
Actually, those stations aren't THAT bad. They're up there, but at least people don't piss on those platforms unlike some of the others... however, what is that brown/orange dripping liquid that drips from the ceilings and leaves a stain on the cement floor? At Bay Parkway, there's this patch that looks like ice and never goes away, not even during the summer.
That ice-like patch is leachate from water dripping through concrete and over steel and forming the beginnings of a stalagmite on the platform surface.
wayne
IRT:1,9 From 125 Street to Dyckman street
I don't know if I'd go that far.... a fair number of those stations are in decently good shape. 181 is quite nice, and 168 is still majestic even if they need more light bulbs. 125-157 are all pretty average. Of course, the disaster zone that is 191 just about evens it all out.... probably the worst condition of any station on the whole line.
116 and 110 could certainly use some rehab - especially 116, a lot of the white tile is damaged and no one's washed those walls in a looooong time. 103's probably just as old, but it looks better than its neighbors up north.
Also on the 1 (for now), Clark St could be greatly improved by a good power washing of those walls, and those brown-and-red walls at Hoyt are just ugly no matter what you do to them. Most of the Brooklyn 1/4 stations seem to be in decent shape.
My vote goes for Canal St on the J/M/Z. If extra people were planned to go through that station, I thought they'd make it look nicer. The green paint on the old-disintigrating-no-longer-white tiles looks nasty. Since the manny b flip, that station should now be pretty popular because of how it's closest to the center of chinatown. I do think however, that there is work being done there... correct me if I'm wrong.
Canal on the J/M/Z was partially renovated two years ago -- the Chambers-bound platform is completely fixed up, while the Bowery-bound platform does look gawdawful, but is scheduled for abandonment by the MTA in the near future.
Abandonment? Will they only use the Chambers bound platform then?
I think that is the plan. This is why they only fixed one side. Will the remaining platform be to narrow for north and south bound passengers?
Will the remaining platform be to narrow for north and south bound passengers?
I don't think that place gets too full. It wouldn't even be like 34st on Broadway IMO ...
241 st Station, rooftop rotting away, along White Plains Road EL structure needs painting, Pelham Parkway, poorly lit, East 177th Street rattles when trains pull in and out, 149th street-Grand Concourse filthy and foul smelling.
Pelham Parkway, poorly lit (White Plains Road Line)
Is it the last station solely lit with incandescent bulbs? I can't think of any others.
--Mark
Nope, Middletown Rd on the 6.
Bronx Park East? Or has it been upgraded?
All stations on the Bronx 2 line are slated for rehab during this 5 year plan.
BMT - Chambers Street, hands down. Runner-up: Bowery
IND - Broadway on the "G" line. Runner-up : 21st-Van Alst. Honorable mention: Lexington-53rd St
IRT - Brook Avenue (6) although I THINK they are fixing or have fixed at least part of it, runner-up 138th Street-Mott Haven.
wayne
Chambers St, by far, is the worst station in the system. Bowery is pretty bad, even though some work was done there recently.
Piggo covered the 1/2/3.
Atlantic is undergoing rehab currently.
I don't see anything wrong with the 8th Avenue stations you mention except 59th. There was a partial rehab at 50th about 10-15 years ago. The CPW local stations (except 81st) could use some work, though.
The 4th Avenue local stations, along with Rector, should be restored in the fashion of the Broadway local stations. The West End line looks basically fine to me; are there stuctural issues I'm unaware of? The Sea Beach stations could use a repainting but I don't know how much more than that they need.
I'd add Queens Plaza and most of the G stations to the list.
Have they restored any of the 4th Avenue stations to their original mosaics, like they are doing in Manhattan? I haven't been there in about 5 years or so, and I thought they had started doing some of them back then.
No. The express stations never lost theirs, and most of the local stations still have their old mosaics showing if you know where to look. Union Street received some sort of rehab but the "refrigerator tile" was retained (and modified).
Union is the one they were working on when I was last there. I was hoping the had gotten rid of the ugly 60's or 70's tiles there and on the others.
I am going to qualify that slightly by mentioning that some LIMITED repair work has gone on to the 4th Avenue local station's original tilework, WHERE IT EXISTS and warranted repair - i.e. 25th Street S/B and also at 53rd Street, in one spot and in the mezzanine. At platform level, the original tile does exist in spots, mostly around the exits and fare-control areas. I would bet when their numbers come up as did the Broadway stations, all the original tilework will be re-exposed, although they will probably leave Union Street largely alone.
Speaking of 4th Avenue stations --- 59TH STREET - can they send someone down there with the hi-pressure hose to blast the grime off that frieze. I think that's all it needs, not counting a shot of clear-coat.
wayne
David,
The Sea Beach suffers from a constant water problem. The TA only installed catch pans and drains, the concrete structures themselves need to be re-built.
The West End, while in better shape than the Sea Beach, needs major work at 62nd Street, where the original rotting wood canopies remain, with holes in some areas, Bay Parkway, with wooden benches that have no bench and concrete work on the platforms. In fact, with the exception of 55th Street, every West End station needs some work.
The "G" station at Broadway is in absolutely hideous condition, almost as much water leaking through as at Chambers BMT, peeling paint, stalactites, stalagMITES too, and fire damage to one end. It needs help!
Has anybody seen what similar problems are going on up in the Bronx at the 205th Street station? There's another sieve.
wayne
I wonder, if they fix up the Broadway station, will they correct the spelling?
N,R- Station along R Brooklyn Route
N- Sea Beach Stations
B- West End Stations
I guess DeKalb Ave. is included in that if not then:
Dekalb Ave.
The rehabilitation of the DeKalb Avenue (Fourth Avenue Line) station (as opposed to Canarsie Line) is in its beginning stages as we speak.
David
What about the Sixth Ave Station on the Canarsie Line. For years Sixth Ave has been gross.
6th is pretty bad. They did a nice job on 8th Avenue though. I wonder if 6th is planned.
Well, if you want to see nice work, go look at UNION SQUARE on the "L", where the wizards with the sand and water wands blasted 75 years of grime, goo and gunk off the friezes and restored them to marvelous like-new condition. 6th Avenue looks worse because the colors in the frieze are actually darker (lime green, dark green, brown, sand yellow, copenhagen blue) than those at Union Square (sea green, lime green, ochre, sky blue). Yes, they need to put up new tile panels, and once that's done, to give the friezes a bath. On the Brooklyn-bound side they have to relocate some pipes and conduits first.
You want to know what's a mess too - BEDFORD AVENUE. There is ONE little section out near the Brooklyn end of the station where you can see what the original colors look like.
As far as 8th Avenue is concerned, nice try guys, but a clever forgery, probably done that way because of the island platform - the pattern repeats itself in the frieze, which is a no-no because all Canarsie line tile should be totally random - in the true "crazy-quilt" fashion. This is the way S.J.Vickers intended it. Look at the new work at stations like Lorimer, Graham, Grand, Montrose, Jefferson, DeKalb, Halsey, etc. for examples of the new recreating the original, and near-perfect too, may I add - in the cases of Lorimer and efferson, the new's better than the old. At Lorimer, they pulled off near-perfect tablet recreations - the only way to tell is that one of the letters (the "O") is a little lopsided and the slate blue glaze is translucent rather than opaque. Mr. Vickers would be very pleased indeed with this careful attention to detail.
wayne
I agree with most of what you said. But I do like 8th Avenue. Remember it used to only look like an IND station!
Yes, you are right there, and it was as recently as two years ago that two-tone Chinese Blue IND tile (same color as Jay Street IND) was in place at 8th Avenue. The new scheme is nice but it is a bit too reserved, it needed a bright pastel shade to perk it up. Still, it's an improvement on what was there.
wayne
Lex. Av. - 53rd St. could use a really good painting. Its ceiling is painted with a dull beige color, and it has other paint stains all over it.
Also, the "primer" (or paint) on the sides of the tunnel walls of the station can be covered with good design or paint.
Lex/53 is one of the most dilapidated stations on the IND. Its puzzling, when the next station on the 8th Avenue line, 7th Avenue, has been totally renovated and is pretty nice. Guess it has something to do with the volume of customers at Lex/53.
I think the overall maintenance is OK, but it could really use a good painting.
I've considered your thought.
Thank You.
It is amazing how bad it is. And it's not even original, it had been redone at some point.
Did that station ever have wall tiles?
I don't know.
I belive no, check the line guides on this site.
You are correct, it never had wall tile. But survey marks on the walls currently indicate something may be in the works, at least part-way up the wall. The mezzanine had maroon mosaic directional signs, so if they do put up tile, it should be something in the Red family.
wayne
Stillwell Avenue was real eyesore. It may not have been the worst station in need of repair but it was up there in my opinion.
The platforms weren't that bad, but the stairs and what it led to was completly horrible. It was so dusty with yellow lighting on probably yellower paint, and that disgusting piss smell.
That was one disgusting feature of Stillwell. That rancid smell of urine. It was disgusting.
most likely came from Sea beach Passengers
If you say so, but the stiars and ramp leading to the now Q platform smelled worse :)
Bob wouldn't know that because he hasn't any sense of smell, but a good point on your part. In fact, you are right. I remember last March 30th when I took the D back to the Marquis-Marriott. When I went up the Brighton ramp the smell almost killed me. I was sure some of the Brighton boys were in the neighborhood checking up on me and they had an emergency and couldn't hold it.
Remind me for Christmas to send you a bottle of ONION JUICE in a cologne bottle
Make sure Andee doesn't read it. He just might send me a bottle. YUK!
Every station on the Sea Beach to No Beach So of 59th need repair,
Well how do you do. We finally agree on something.
I still think they should turn the Sea beach into a Trolley Line
Stop the presses!!!!!!
I dunno what everybody's complaining about. I was just there this month (this is the first stop Manhattan bound from Queens right?) and it looked fine. Definetly not one of the worst IMO considering how it looks upstairs.
Upstairs was fixed up when Citicorp Center went in. Downstairs is another matter entirely. At least the TA fixed up the tileless Grand Central stop on the Flushing line for the 1964-65 World's Fair; the 53rd-Lex stop on the E/F has always looked like Fiorello ran out of money to complete it back in the 1930s.
What Lexington-53rd Street needs is TILE, panel tile to be exact, mounted on studs and laths as was done at so many other stations (Chambers St-H&M, 7th Ave-53rd, 207th St,etc). It should have a PENNSY TUSCAN RED tile band with a BLACK border and little IND captions reading "LEX-3rd AV" in the IND font on it. It should not go higher up the wall than about 2 feet above the top of the round niches. The ceiling and upper wall should be painted a dark color (preferably black) to hide the dirt and leaks.
wayne
And are they going to invest in some thing other than white tiles. I guess no. And custon tile letters are nuts , are you going to pay them to do it?
I'll atempt to answer the entire thread here so please be patient:
72 (1,2,3)- being renovated at this time.
59 (1,2,3,A,B,C,D)-renovation design planned for this 5 year program.
125 and Lex- in the 5 year program.
Atlantic and Utica IRT Brooklyn- being renovated at this time.
Delancey/Essex- in early stages of renovation. Contractor is Cab Associates so expect the job to run very behind schedule.
DeKalb- Renovation planned. Bids advertised for renovation manager.
Queens Plaza- this 5 year program as is Roosevelt/74 complex.
Lex/53- Major renovation underway. This will become a full mezzanine with elevators to the IND platform which will have tile walls and additional escaaltors to the IND Mezzanine and better connections to the IRT.
138- No info.
Sea Beach Line- in the 5 year program.
J Line- Marcy being renovated now. All stations West of Easterrn parkway under renovation now and just completed.
Alabama to Crescent is in the 5 year program as is the Bronx 2 line stations to 241 and 4 line to Woodlawn.
Brooklyn 4th Av and West End- No info.
Rector- I expect IRT will be renovated when the line is reopened whenever that happens. BMT- I hope it will be done in conjunction with whatever is built at the WTC site.
Good post!
Delancey/Essex- in early stages of renovation. Contractor is Cab Associates so expect the job to run very behind schedule.
Then why in the world was this company selected as the contractor??
Remember the old expression: fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Will the funky name mosaics on the wall platform at Essex Street be removed in the rehab? Were those installed when the wall platform first opened? When was that, anyway? (These questions are addressed to anyone who happens to know the answers.)
I used to use that station everyday when I was in college. The wall went up sometime around 1988-1989. (Give or take a year) The wall made the platform less wide. Behind the wall are a bunch of stairways going up(that were unused back then) and the origional tilework which was very plain, sort of like what you see in the distance in the trolly section. It was all white, no name tablets, rectangle white "brick" look like the origional IRT. The new wall is about a stairway's width closer to the track than the original.
Then the tile was brand new when I first used the station (1990ish). Did the stairways previously lead to the street? That platform is dangerously narrow now -- I'm surprised the safety hazard wasn't considered.
The stairways were all closed already when I first started using the station. There was nothing really to see - sealed up above. There was a "jail" fence about a foot or so along behind where the current "cement block" wall is now, And they stored all kinds of junk behind the fence. The doorways in the current wall lead to the areas between the stairways. As dumb as the cement block wall looks now, it was a big improvement over what was there. I think it was their first attempt at recreating mosics. (A bad one at that.)
That station seems to have more closed stairways than open ones. There's an entire sealed mezzanine on the south side of Delancey Street (reopened temporarily during the bridge construction, then resealed).
When they were redoing the wall on the southbound platform that platform was closed. The way from the street to the station was from those stairways that go down in the middle of the bridge bound platform, that are closed now. That mezzanine was open briefly, for a year or so around 1989 also, while they were redoing the wall platform, and they only used the middle and Brooklyn bound tracks.
That answers a question I've had for a long time: Until the south side exits were briefly reopened in 1999, the boarded-up stairways had modern signage, including Z's.
That mezzanine should be reopened (unattended with HEET's, if nothing else). Exiting via the F platform is a pain. Incidentally, there are no "Exit" signs at the staircases to the F (or at least there weren't when I first used that station); my first time there, I spent a few minutes wandering up and down the platform looking for a staircase going up before relenting and going down.
When the realignment is completed, northbound trains will use the center track. At that time, assuming there is no regular service between 6th Avenue and the Williamsburg Bridge (which has to use the side track), a removable bridge should be installed between the platform and the south side exit.
at the very least, they ought to give the el in astoria a good coat of paint. does anyone know when it was last painted? it's been at least 30 years i'd say, and the rust is ready to take it's toll. i half expect a train to fall through someday if it's left much longer...
what other els out there need a good coat of paint? (all of them?)
I have my own list.In Alphabetical/numerical route order:
A,B,C,D,E:42 Street,125 street
F,G:Smith 9 Street
J,M,Z:Canal Street
L:Bedford Avenue
N,Q,R,W:42 Street,All local stations between 34 Street and Canal Street.
Q,S:Prospect Park
4,5,6:86 street,28 Street
Just to give you an Idea.
If It hasn't been mentioned, could someone please do something about the abomination that is called West 8th Street on the "F" & "Q" lines, the station desperately needs a coat of paint or something.
Maybe the NY Aquarium could add some artwork to spruce up the place. Just an idea....
Try thinking about the Rockaway Park Branch. All the stations except maybe Beach 116th St need repair. They are rotting away fast!
I agree with all of them, but I think Canal on the JMZ is going to stay like it is. They only fixed one side and will be abandoning the other platform.
28th on the 456 isn't that bad, but it could use a little sprucing up. They did a nice job on 33rd Street, which is right before it.
You mentioned Bedford Ave. All the L line stations could use a little cleaning up. They didn't look so bad until they redid Lorimer Street, and now you can notice how bad the others really are
Wilson Avenue on the "L" needs a going-over too, including new tile on the lower level trackside wall, but they better go over any existing tile there with kid gloves, it is among the most beautiful in the system and is certainly unique, with its 28 colors. They have a water problem in the lower level over the tracks and they have to put up a gutter along the top of the trackside wall to catch the rain.
Once that's done they can go ahead and put up new tile panels on the trackside wall. The frieze should, of course, be laid random in the panels before they're shipped out.
wayne
42 IND 8th ave is being renovated at this time.86 and Lex is slated for renovation during this 5 year plan.
Propsect Park was redone. The current work is adding ADA elevatyors at the LIncoln Road Entrance. The Broadway local stops from 34 to Canal are being renovated now to restore original appearance. The refrigerator tile has been removed and new white tile installed (or being installed) to restore original apperance.
I feel these stations are the most elegent stations ever built.
IRT:Bowling Green,Cortland Street(1,9,I'm thinking prior 9/11),18 Street,Franklin Street
IND:34 Street,Roosevelt Island,Jamaica Center,21 Street/Queensbridge,Jamaica Van Wyck,Jamaica(Next to last stop on the E)Canal Street(E)
BMT:Pacific Street,Whitehall Street,Last 2 Stops on J in Queens,Metropolitan Avenue,49 Street
Most of these have just been renovated though, of course they look nice. :)
Our tastes clearly differ. Here are my opinions. I've starred stations that are in poor shape right now but show grandeur nonetheless.
Franklin Street (1/2)
66th Street (1/2)
125th Street (1) (for the view)
*168th Street (1)
181st Street (1)
*191st Street (1)
Dyckman Street (1) (northbound platform)
City Hall (6 loop)
Bleecker Street (6)
33rd Street (6)
Grant Avenue (A)
*181st Street (A) (interior and lower entrance)
*190th Street (A) (both entrances)
81st Street (B/C)
Jamaica-Van Wyck (E)
York Street (F)
Smith-9th Streets (F/G) (for the view)
*Chambers Street (J/M/Z)
Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction (J/L/Z) (for the railfan)
*most underground Canarsie line stations (L)
36th Street (M/N/R/W)
Cortlandt Street (N/R before 9/11)
*Sea Beach stations (N)
Botanic Garden (S)
I'd have to agree with the Canarsie stations. They held up great, and look great even though they need some work. The mosaics are some of the nicest, aside form the original subway. Chambers on the JMZ must have been some station in it's day, even though it needs a lot of help.
IRT
18th St-(1)
Flushing/Main St-(7)
33rd St-(6)
BMT
Lexington Ave-(N)(R)(W)
Montrose Av-(L)
IND
23 St-Ely-(E)(V) (Pretend it's post December 16th!)
Most CPW stations
NYCTA/MTA/"modern"
Roosevelt Island, 21 St-Queensbridge (F)
I think the stations along the 63rd St line are all very nice looking, but the ones on the Archer Ave extension (except maybe Jamaica-Van Wyck) are hideous.
:-) Andrew
Most CPW stations? Are there two CPW's or something? Except for 81st Street, the CPW stations are in pretty awful shape and they were never thrilling to begin with. Even the IND station design fans must wonder about the tileless wall beyond the express track. Have I missed something? The CPW stations are cold and spooky.
In this case I'm just refering to the basic design, although I will admit they're not in a great state of repair. They're "spooky", of course, because they don't get a whole lot of service.
:-) Andrew
What does CPW stand for?
Sorry I just figured it out. DUH..........
Central Park West (in case anyone else is still wondering).
I think the stations along the 63rd St line are all very nice looking, but the ones on the Archer Ave extension (except maybe Jamaica-Van Wyck) are hideous.
They are very early 80's(yes I know it opened in the late 80's). This is just before they got smart with the retro look. Most of the renovations they have done in the last 5-10 years are a class act. Especially like as you mentioned, 18th ST on 7th and 33rd on Lex. The latter is a great example of modernizing while preseving the best of the old.
I take exception to Main St - Flushing being considered being one of the best stations.
One problem is that the stub tracks limit capacity to 24 tph. They need more trains. The only way to achieve this is to extend the tracks about 600 feet beyond the present platform. This will permit trains to approach the station at faster speeds thereby increasing the terminal's capacity to 40 tph.
Another problem is that the station cannot handle the present number of passengers efficiently. This is particularly evident during the evening rush hour. Two things become obvious. There is an insufficient number of stairways in the western half of the station leading off the platform and the platforms are too narrow. This means that passengers are reluctant to exit from the trains quickly to risk dangerous crowding conditions on these platforms. This means that trains take longer to reverse direction and clear the station than they should.
Both of these shortcomings could have been addressed in the recent 4 year long $30 million rehabilitation. Neither was. And to the extent that there is now less platform space in the western half of the station, things have been made worse. It's about time this station was rebuilt. A rehabilitation only to be torn down in a short period of time is not unusal for the Flushing Line. The Queens Blvd viaduct fiasco is an example of the TA's ability to get things wrong on the their first try.
Well, right on all counts, as far as I can tell. But aestetically it's a beautiful station, and one of the best restored IRT walls I know. It's also one of the cleanest stations I know. That's all.
:-) Andrew
Roosevelt Island is a VERY nice station, soooooo shiny... *drools*
Chambers Street on the J,M and Z. The paint is peeling off the top, the wall tiles looks like they haven't been cleaned in years. It smells like urine. That is totally unacceptable anywhere, especially for a station that is right under City Hall.
Which would have been less expensive? Building the AirTrain or restoring the old Rockaway Beach LIRR line and using that as the JFK connection?
I don't know, but I believe the Rockaway Branch would be best served as a local rapid transit line, because there is no kind of subway service in that area. But it doesn't look like either will ever happen.
Perhaps, but maybe restoration of the Rock would have been possible as a limited use, short-train, non-stop line from Penn Station to JFK. If there are no stations in between, people living along the line would have less reason to complain.
And then it's a pain for the west siders.
There was a reason the LIRR ditch the line in the first place.
Main reason the Long Island abandoned the Rockaway Branch: Lack of funds to rehabilitate the trestles over Jamaica Bay. The LIRR was still owned by the Pennsilvania which at that time was running out of money, so they sold the line to the TA (A train) As a trunkated line to Ozone Park only it was no longer viable and was abandoned in 1960.
Since the TA and LIRR are now both owned by MTA it should have been possible to link Airtrain and LIRR for a direct connection to Penn Station, and later Grand Central Terminal (East Side Access).
Main problem with this: NYMBY's and the PA wanting to run their own system.
But that is the point, if they had the ridership the money would have been found. I can barely believe they still go to Far Rock the other way.
If that were the reason, then all 9 branches would have been dumped.
City money was to be used to rebuild the R-o-W, and the politicians saw no other way than to give it to the city-owned IND, not to a bankrupt private railroad owned by another railroad in Phila which no longer wanted to throw any more good money after bad.
It would have been far cheaper to turn it over to the LIRR to run it.
The Jamaica Bay fill and bridges cost $4 million, which is all that was necessary to run it agan. Instead an additional $24 million was spent to convert it to IND operation, with new substations, signal system, and barrier stations.
but it would not pay for them to run 24/7 service and for the locals I am sure it the LIRR charged more than the nickel or dime fare the MTA did at the time.
The cost of the LIRR would also include maintaining ROW north of Liberty Junction.
Answer: Probably building the Air Train as it is now being constructed. The old Rockaway Beach ex-LIRR r.o.w. (owned by NY City since 1952) has been unused since 1962 and is so overgrown that clearing, grubbing, and grading the line would cost millions - then there would be cost of rebuilding all of the overgrade bridges on the line - intact, but no doubt badly deteriorated from 40 years of negelct. The Air Train right of way (the Van Wyck Expressway) required a few small property takings but more importantly no clearing and grubbing - just build the train structure along the Van Wyck median. The other good reason to build the Van Wyck alignment is that the Jamaica LIRR connection allows connections to all LIRR branches (except Port Washington), the E and J subways, and about a dozen local NYC Transit and Green local bus routes. The Rockaway Beach routing does not touch Jamaica and the ability to tap traffic originating in Nassau, Suffolk, and eastern Queens. It also does not permit easy access to Brooklyn (via LIRR or J subway) - unless the old Woodhaven Junction complex is rebuilt.
I think all you have to do is build a switch down in the tunnel that would connect the Rockaway branch to the Atlantic Ave westbound track. The eastbound switch is already there, but would probably need a good going over.
wayne
Wayne,you have your East and West mixedup. There was a west(school bus parking) but no eastern switch.
avid
The CBT estimates the Rockaway Line restoration, including sound-proffing all the bedroom windows of the backyard homes, and Woodhaven Jct would have cost $300 million. Aitrain cost is in the billions.
I don't give a ____ about bedroom windows I want public transportation!!!!!!!!!1
You would if you lived there. Why should you get a quiet room and others not? I thought that you commies wanted everybody to be equal.
Hey, when they bought their houses, or rented there they knew there was a ROW there. They should have kept it in the back of their minds that it could be used again. If they had any problem with that, they should have bought or rented somewhere else, away from current or potential ROW's. There is a reason homes may be a little cheaper.
And anyone that moved to lower Manhattan should have known the WTC was a terrorist target.
For almost sixty years the Empire Stat Building was one of the US of As Ground Zeros, as was every major city,port and industrial complex.
In the interest on National Security(importinging less foreign oil) we must rebuild the Rockaway Branch to connect the airports(JFK & LGA) and midtown Manhattan.
Those opposed are UNamerican and are to be considered to be in bed with terrorist and treated as such!
Blue Wing Leader, this is Blue Cental Command!
We have boggies parallel to the rail line running north/south from Jam-A-Kah Bin Bay.
Lets lay a carpet about four miles long. Start approximately four clicks north of the bay and continue norterly. Over.
WE copy! Over.
avid
By the same reasoning anyone living in Manhattan should have known that the only way to the Rockaway Line is via the IND on Fulton Street. Lets face it, the old Rockaway Branch is history and will never be rebuilt.
How many R-142/142A's have the American Flags on them? I saw one today on the 6.
Most of the cars are lacking them. Why pick on the R142/R142A?
I haven't seen a single R32 with one but I am guessing that is due to the corrugations.
well there are starting to show up on the r142s on the #2.ever since last month
well, since i'm an everyday r142 rider, i suppose most of the R142 cars on the 2 line have flags...
they do now, since last month
r142man
I saw American flag stickers on a train of R-142As on Wednesday November 21st. I also saw R-62s and R-62As with American flag stickers on the same day.
#3 West End Jeff
...question....on cars NOT made in the U.S.A. ..????.......................!....
the cars were made in the USA. stop prejudging in names
WAIT A MINUTE !! ...........the r-142s were all built in the United States ??? like ACF pressed steel BUDD St Louis car ???
?????? is that what you mean ?? how did i prejudge ?? if i am wrong then i will submit to any proff that the r-142s
are made in th U.S.A. ....................!!......??
The R142s were made in Plattsburg, NY. I can see your non-US made statement since Bombardier is based in Montréal, which is in Canada.
On the WMATA cars, prior to September 11 (or really late March, when they started applying the ugly anniversary stickers), only the Rohrs which were built totally in the US carried the flag. The Breda's started in Pistoia, Italy and were shipped to Indiana (I think that is where it was, it was an old Amtrak shop) for final assembly. The CAF cars (which I have yet to see to date but are presumebly in service on the Green Line) have a similiar production: Outsides in Spain, interiors in Cockeysville, MD.
USA built is made in the USA
like st louis car ACF Budd etc...
I know what USA made means. The issue was whether or not the company has to be US based or if only US assembly qualifies.
In any case, the MTA isn't stupid enough to say "to commemorate the 9-11 attack victims, we are applying US flags to our subway cars made in the USA only."
ok remember i was making reference to USA made products ..
I think NEW YORK city should build your own subway cars !!! build em right there !!!
look at this sharayo junker we have in lost angeles ......lol !!
also :........ the sides are rusting away already .....lol!!!
You keep pointing out Sharayo sets are junkers. I have no experience with most of this trainset tech but don't you think LA should have ordered stainless steel carbodies (and painted them if they liked?) As for Redbirds ('Rustbirds,') one must remember that they had carbon steel carbodies, were built fourty years ago and had drainage problems that were never attended to properly (they rust out at floor level.) By the way, your photos are always phenomenal and there isn't anything I could find in the system that comes close. Peter
but the redbirds ( the sides ) are from the 1960s era ...the drain holes should have been kept up ....
my opinion on the shayro rolling stock etc... ( oh well ) @ they are overpriced !!!
we got done in with those !!! .......................lol!!!
thanks for your commnt on my pics !!! i have a few free photo webpages ...
One of my guys was shown in carbody inspection how to clean out the holes. WAY too late! Even the corrugated plates in front and back have gaping rustholes Bondo wont fix. Surprisingly, Redbirds are now well taken care of and the biggest problems occur because of component age in the propulsion control systems. Peter
.....YEP ......!!
So the redbirds DID NOT have to become "" RUSTBIRDS"" .........!!!
THANK YOU .....very very very much !!!!
Firstly, from the outside, that appears to be one cool LRV. Secondly, I've been on the Kinki-Sharyo (or whatever they are called) Type-7s in Boston and found them to be fine (except for the speed or lack thereof in the Tremont Street Tunnel. The Japanese build some pretty good rapid transit viechles.
To the best of my knowledge, R142s and R142As ARE MADE IN THE USA. Why? Because the most important railroad parts specified in the contracts are made HERE by US. TA has used components made by foreign manufacturers for years without major problems...the 'new tech' trainsets' problems have more to do with with vendors incompatability with the contractors complete system than 'made by someone abroad.' Hey, almost all heavy machinery is 'something foreign.' When a town upstate dumped a contract for a Komatsu tractor cuz vets barked...they got screwed. Komatsu is owned by WR Grace and MADE here...the red/white/blue John Deer is seventy percent Japanese/German/French. Peter
I guess it would be pointless to note that St. Louis Car Co, ACF, Budd and MK are all gone. The R142/142A cars are Made in the USA, New York acutally as per their contract requirements. So what if some of the components come for other countries. If you own anything electronical then you're not sticking to your pro-USA foreign product boycott.
Shawn
i agree with you there on most of what you said !!
aint it a shame railcars are made elsewhere ??
Prejudging is his stock in trade.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Prejudging is his stock in trade. " ?? what in the hell is that supposed to mean ?? ....
all i said is the ( Prejudging is his stock in trade. ) aint USA made .......lol!!!
{ on topic } .....lol !!
The number of R-142s with flags should be changing constantly. Every revenue car in the NYCT system, with the exception of the R-32s, is getting the same flag treatment. The project is on-going....
Why aren't they putting the flag stickers on the R-32s.
#3 West End Jeff
No smooth areas that are big enough. The corrugation runs from top to bottom on the sides of the cars. Maybe they could place small ones on one of the windows, or up by the front route sign.
Or small flags in the smooth areas next to the doors. Or mount a board on the cars similar to the ones that the MTA logo is on.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your idea of placing small American flag stciker on the smooth areas naxt to the doors on the R-32s is a good idea. They can also place the American flags within the MTA logo.
#3 West End Jeff
Every revenue car in the NYCT system, with the exception of the R-32s, is getting the same flag treatment. The project is on-going....
Flag burning has been declard a legitimate form of free speech by the Supreme Court. Isn't the TA afraid that its cars might be damaged, if somebody applied a blow torch to flag affixed on it? :-)
Last Tuesday I took Amtrak home for thanksgiving from Meriden CT to Philly. My shuttle train was on time at Meriden on the Inland Route. The consist was 1 Metroliner cab car and 3 CDoT SPV's. All of the passengers were able to be seated in the leading cab car (railfan view!), but the crew still gave out the 20% off coupons due to having a train w/ "commuter equipment."
Our connecting train in New Haven was about 10-15 minutes late. The trip over MNRR was even slower than usual. We were held for 10 minutes waiting to platform at Stamford and even after getting on the New Haven line we got stopped for another 15 minutes at the crossover after Pelham Bay bridge. The all reserved train went SRO after Penn (so much for guarenteed seating), but after the Trenton stop everyone I could see had been able to get a seat. While traveling through the Hudson tunnels there was a cab signal hiccup and our clear signal went all the way to restricting which delayed our train (and the ACELA Express behind us) about another 5 minutes. We arrived at 30th St. about 40 minutes late at 9:50. Not bad considering the congested holiday travel period and my rush hour train.
>>>...but the crew still gave out the 20% off coupons due to having a train w/ "commuter equipment." <<<
So, I guess, based on your past statements that you threw yours away.
Peace,
ANDEE
In the retail arcade at Fifth Avenue/53rd Street station, the establishment closest to the 24-hour token booth is the "E F Coffee Shop," with the E in a blue circle and the F in an orange circle.
If "F" trains are permanently rerouted through 63rd Street and "V" trains introduced through 53rd Street, then the coffee shop will be incorrectly named. Therefore, the rerouting can't happen!!
:-)
Maybe they can file for a change of name to "G O Coffee" ... then they're always covered. :)
I don't think the TA is going to alter all of their plans to get hundreds of complaining QB riders to Manhattan just because of the name of a coffee shop.
So change the name of the coffee shop to E V
At least your reason made more sense than any others offered.
You do have GOOD GROUNDS.
Tell that to the MTA! See what reponse you will get. They will probubly evict them.
[If "F" trains are permanently rerouted through 63rd Street and "V" trains introduced through 53rd Street, then the coffee shop will be incorrectly named. Therefore, the rerouting can't happen!!]
I'm reminded of a Transit proposal, about 10 years ago, to restructure 8th Avenue service and have the "A" make all local stops.
As silly as that proposal might have been, the community response to it was totally idiotic: The song "Take the 'A' Train" includes the lines "If you take the 'A' train / You'll get to Harlem in a hurry...."; those lines, it was claimed, constitute a social, if not legal, obligation on Transit's part to keep the "A" as an express service. (In other words, running the "A" train as a local will cause the song to be wrong. Therefore, the change can't happen.)
Oy!!!
I remember that! It was quite an uproar on all the news channels!
That and this is bull----.Yeah you can try to change a rerouting if it disrupts thousands of people,unless it's to protect the public!
A song-writer has final say over what the TA can and can not do?
[A song-writer has final say over what the TA can and can not do?]
No, the MTA Board of Directors made the final decision, based on public comment. However, most of the public comment was based on the song.
BTW, I remember also hearing one comment accusing Transit of real estate arbitrage - planning to decimate subway service in order to depress property values, then buy all the depressed property, restore the service, and sell the property at a profit. Of course, the Transit officials denied such intent, but thanked the guy for giving them credit for having brains (and they might have offered him a job, too)!
Well, the R-10s certainly got you to Harlem in a hurry.:-)
Rode the L Train today ( to my neighborhood of my youth). Seems that they are demolishing the entire complex between Broadway Junction and atlantic ave except for the yard leads. What a shame, it was like a giant train set when I was young.
Real problems on the A,F and C this morning. Backups were from Jay Street to about 42nd St. Don't know when they sorted it out. People were very patient waiting on trains , sometime 10-15 minutes between moves. Jus tshows you that the public can be good.
I think they are narrowing it down to one platform. I believe they are keeping the Canarsie Bound Platform, but I could be wrong.
While on Canarsie line. I know it is possible to go from Canarsie to the Broadway El. They did that years ago. Is it also possible (or was it) to go from Jamaica to the 14th Street Line in service?
YES. THROUGH MY YOUTH ( THE FORTIES), RUSH HOUR THROUGH TRAINS RAN FROM CANAL STREET OVER THE WILLIAMSBURG BRIDGE TO CANARSIE USING THE CONNECTION JUST EAST OF EASTERN PKWY. THAT CONNECTION SEEMS NOW TO BE GONE FOREVER.AT THAT TIME,CANARSIE HAD SERVICE IN RUSH HOURS EVERY FEW MINUTESE EITHER TO 8TH AVE OR CANAL STREET. THE COMPLEX SERVED THE OLD FULTON STREET EL AS WELL WHICH WERE THE OTHER TRACKS ON THE PLASTFORMS AT ATLANTIC AVE.
The TA is making the tracks run side by side from Atlantic to Broadway Jct. From what I saw today all of the new steel is now in place and the track bed are the next thing to go in. So I guest that sometime early next year it will be compleat.
Robert
I guess the condencing of Atlantic Ave will be like what happened to Queensboro Plaza in 1949-50.
Bacically what they are doing is tearing down the Sneidiker Street El and keeping just the Van Sinderin Ave El. Since there hasn't been a Fulton El in a while there is no need having the Canarsie Line using two separate streets.
I think I have read somewhere on Subtalk that the connection between Broadway and Canarsie Lines will be restored. It would seem kind of short sighted to disconnect those 2 lines permanently. It could be used for future service or non revenue moves.
There is not just one way to cross over, they transfer cars everyday.
Here is the best lowdown I currently have regarding the connection between the Broadway *J,Z* and the Canarsie *L*
The northbound "flyover" has been disconnected pending realignment of that portion of the elevated structure, including the yard leads. It will be reconnected when re-alignment is complete.
The southbound "flyunder" is still there, intact, and probably will remain that way.
wayne
That connection is not gone. It's still there for transfers and work trains, although no regularly scheduled passenger service operates through it. Track J2A, however, which connects the Manhattan bound Canarsie line to the Manhattan bound Broadway/Jamaica line, is out of service until further notice because of the work now being done between Atlantic Av. and Broadway Jct.
I guess its possible by using the same connection and wrongrailing.
This current demolition is of Box girder type structure, was the portion above Pitkin Ave Box girder and how many tracks, two or three. If two, where did the three tracks begin above Liberty Ave? Grant Ave? Did the box gireder segments come out of a "cookie cutter? That is where they of a standard length, except where the needs of construction demanded longer or shorter sections.
avid
So obviously they never had a service that did that.
> Real problems on the A,F and C this morning. Backups were from
> Jay Street to about 42nd St.
I heard there was a "switch problem" at Second Avenue on the F Line. Does anyone here have any details?
- Lyle Goldman
Alan, some of us SubTalkers visited the Atlantic Avenue station about two weeks ago to observe the demolition/restructuring going on over there.
Yes, the connection to the J/Z Lines will be reinstalled, but only after all of the Canarsie trackage reconfiguration is completed. (Track K1 will become P2, if I'm correct).
The new steel structure is in place between Atlantic & Sutter (the steel is yellow in color due to the priming -- so it stands out against the older original green-painted steel).
BMTman
it's kind of sad. i guess that we should all be thankful that we had an opportunity to see it. future generations will just see pictures.
Unfortunately the photo that Simon took was in the right place but just of us vs. the current state of the complex.
Mr rt__:^)
Speaking of pictures, does anyone have any pictures of the current demoltion of the structure?
If not found here, Joe Korman's site (www.thejoekorner.com) has 1970 era pictures and present pictures of the ENY El structures.
I've seen this several times, but on some "semi-long-distance" trains, (such as Vermonter) I see pairs of old, blue, and orange striped "MARC" cars either at the front or the back of the train.
One time I've seen a single unit, another time, I've seen two coupled, and another time I would even see four of them probably coupled in pairs.
Does anybody know what these old "MARC" cars are doing in AMTRAK service? Does anybody ride them?
What is the status of the car?
Any more info. I might want to know?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Amtrak leases these cars from MARC. They were replaced by the new Kawasaki bi-levels. Amtrak also leases MARC Motors during the holidays .
It happens EVERY Thanksgiving in that Amtrak leases from the North Eastern commuter lines their idle passenger equipment to handle the overflow of passengers.
I've seen numerous "mail trains" that don't stop at any intermediate stop, exccept, maybe to deliver their "mail".
First of all,
What is the purpose of mail trains on AMTRAK? I hear it's the "Mail and Express" service. Any details?
Second of all,
ALL mail trains have attached one coach car either stuck in the middle of (usually six baggage cars) baggage cars, or trailing behind.
One mail train I've noticed was carrying a COACH car. Another train I saw was carrying the CAFE car. Both coaches were of the "old AMTRAK fleet", with the patriotic "worn out" colors of thick, original, red, white, and blue colors, and their designs that accompany them.
Does anybody know WHY AMTRAK always carries one coach on their "Mail and Express" trains?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
The cars are for deadhead crews.
What is the purpose of mail trains on AMTRAK? I hear it's the "Mail and Express" service. Any details?
Back in the day most mail was carried by rail. Many cities had/have their post offices right next to the railroad station (think Philly and NYC) and direct connections to the platforms. NEC trains are still faster than trucks on I-95. Amtrak runs mail trains that have been running since the NEC was built. Easy loading and fast service between many north east cities. Most Amtrak mail trains terminate in Springfield MA as there is a huge regional sorting centre there. Amtrak used to have two dedicated main trains. They were named "The Fast Mail" and were trains 12 and 13. Train 12 has turned into train 190 with a full load of passengers. The main is transferred to an inland shuttle at New Haven.
Note that thrain #13 is the ONLY Amtrak train you CANNOT buy a ticket, let alone, ride as a passenger.
Phil Hom
I hand't noticed that 12 had changed to 190.
I was always curious about 12/13, since they were also the two "middle" number from the Coast Starlight.
With San Francisco as "WEST" on the SP, the SB train from Seattle was train 11/12 and the NB train from LA was 13/14, with numbers swapped at Oakland.
Eventually they stopped changing numbers at Oakland. I always wondered if 12/13 were always "on the books" or if they were born when they stopped using 12/13 in the west...
Dave
>>> What is the purpose of mail trains on AMTRAK? I hear it's the "Mail and Express" <<<
Back in the day when air travel was uncertain, almost every passenger train contained one or possibly two express cars. This was the fast way to send small shipments and carry mail between cities (and were the targets of train robbers). Also, most intercity mail traveled by passenger train, sometimes in special rail post office cars, in which the mail would be sorted en route. Passenger trains tended to be named, and some would even have the word "mail" in their title. Small towns would even have a device which would allow someone on the train to hook a mail bag at the station and pull it into the train without even stopping. The mail contracts were a steady source of income to the passenger railroads, and therefore important. To keep the mail contracts, it was important that the trains run on time. Now most mail goes by air, with only a few trains, mostly in the Northeast carrying any mail, and passenger rail travel has deteriorated so much that it is possible to have a train carrying mail only. Since carrying mail is the traditional role of passenger railroads, it is natural that AMTRAK would run the mail train.
Tom
To keep the mail contracts, it was important that the trains run on time. Now most mail goes by air, with only a few trains, mostly in the Northeast carrying any mail, and passenger rail travel has deteriorated so much that it is possible to have a train carrying mail only. Since carrying mail is the traditional role of passenger railroads, it is natural that AMTRAK would run the mail train.
Actually, UPS and FedEx ground package shipments frequently go by intermodal rail on freight railroads. Conrail was the king of this service with a 95-99% on time rate. A feat yet to be matched by its replacements CSX and NS (in face, service got so bad that both pulled their shippments for a time). Furthermore, many of Conrail's hot shot intermodal trains carried a "Mail" symbol. Like Mail-1, Mail-4, Mail-8W. The other's would carry a TV symbol like TV-22. ("It's TV time." has a completely different connotation in the rail freight industry.
The others would carry a TV symbol like TV-22.
Conrail called their TOFCs trail vans.
That was a holdover from the PC era. I don't know why some CR intermodals carried a Mail symbol and other a TV symbol.
vactrack was @239styard this moring
oh well
r142man
It also broke down at Concourse yard a few hours earlier.
Ha, few weeks ago it broke down in the interlocking at Stillwell hehe..
So what you're saying then is that the hoopy scoopy "Monica" REALLY sucks? :)
Missed it this morning...did over two dozen brake jobs without a decent break. Maybe the paraphenelia sucked up outside caused an overload. Peter
Today I went to the Citicorp center train show. I was totally impressed! There are signals that are active, trains stop at reds and wait for green. There are track merges and actual working switches. I never saw such a detailed, extensive miniture train set.
Other travels involved Chinatown, which was very empty, and there was a line for disaster aid stretching down Mott street from CCBA.
Also went down near "Ground Zero", they appear to be starting to demolishing the NE building (#5?). Still makes me very sad to go there. The "smell" was still pretty strong there, you could still smell it in parts of Chinatown. As for the subways, the Lex line, broadway express and 7 express all seemed pretty fast today.
Does anyone know of a website for the citicorp train display?
Not to nitpick (yeah right Allan) but the Citicorp Building was renamed the CitiGroup Building since Citicorp ceased to exist when CitiBank merged with Travelers Insurance.
I'll remember that the next time I'm passing through the Pan Am building on my way to the RCA Building :)
--Mark
Hey--I was going to say that.
Are you going to walk along 4th Avenue?
Are you going to end your trip along the Bloomingdale Road?
Why is it that some name changes are perfectly acceptable, yet others aren't?
It depends when the name change occurred. Many here grew up with the Pan Am Building by Grand Central and the Met Life building at Madison Square, whereas no one here would have walked down North St in Manhattan.
If we're talking about the Court Square building here, as of last Tuesday, the large sign on the roof still says Citibank.
And Boston properties manages it or leases it.
Not to Nitpick, but it was Traveler's GROUP that it merged with, hence CitiGroup.
When does that thing open? It has been under construction longer than EWR was.
Also, what is going to stop there? Just NJT?
Thanks, in advance.
I doubt Amtrak could be convinced to make another NJT-built local stop.
Projected opening is still 2002, but during rush hours there isn't any more room on the trains. It'll likely be pushed back.
Is there not a track connection between North and South Station? I find it rather inconvienent that the Downeaster stops at North Station while all the other Amtrak services stop at South.
Thanks, in advance.
Which city you're Talking about?
boston, mass.
No, there's no direct connection suitable for passenger sere between North and South Stations in Boston. There was a proposal for including such a link in the Big Dig project, but that opportunity was allowed to slip.
Historically (down to about 1960), New Haven-B&M through trains serving Portland and points beyond were routed around Boston, via Providence, Worcester, Lowell, and Lawrence.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The "connection" between North and South Stations is non-revenue track. My recollection is that it is used to interchange Guilford/B&M with CSX at Beacon Yards as well as some MBTA non-revenue moves between North and South side. MBTA and Amtrak do not own the tracks (I believe it's Contrail) and thus pays per use.
To make the move (from North Station to South Station, for example), one must:
Proceed north out of North Station on to the Western (Haverhill) Line about 1/2 mile.
Change ends, and go through the Boston Engine Terminal Yard.
Crawl along the "Grand Junction Line" which is a single track that threads through the city streets of Cambridge (including grade crossings on major avenues).
Cross the Charles River near Boston University, and proceed through Allston.
Enter Southampton Yard.
Change ends, and proceed into South Station.
I think the MBTA plans to buy the Grand Junction Line and convert it to light rail as part of the urban ring project.
There used to be a single railroad track down the middle of Atlantic Ave between North and South Stations. I suppose that it is long gone and forgotten by now.
Long gone; long forgotten indeed!
And the "North-South Rail Link" for Boston (the subject of many threads on SubTalk in years-gone-by) is an idea, but the formal planning is not even funded, to say nothing of possible construction funds.
[To repeat what has been said here in the past, the NSRL is designed to connect North and South Stations, so that through Amtrak and MBTA Commuter Rail service is possible. With the "Big Dig" project ongoing on this corridor, there was NO money to put a rail tunnel underneath the highway as would be required. The only concession was that nothing was done to prohibit its construction in the future, such as replacing utilities in the way, etc.]
Here's an old description of things but don't believe the "planned dates" and funding. Nothing has happened. What a shame.
Here's another site.
don't believe the "planned dates" and funding. Nothing has happened. What a shame.
Huh. I could have sworn that they DID sink vertical walls (which would be the outer walls of a rail tunnel) below the bottom level of the freeway. They didn't remove the dirt in between, build a tunnel floor or construct any accesses ... but I thought they did actually sink the walls below the bottom of the Big Dig vehicle tunnel.
Yes? No? Anyone know?
Crawl along the "Grand Junction Line" which is a single track that threads through the city streets of Cambridge (including grade crossings on major avenues).
I took a trip on a passenger train on this line 40 years ago. (It was a charter). At that time the line had 4 tracks and was owned by the B&A. Who owns it now?
I believe it is owned by CSX (Jersey Mike.... if you're out there... didn't you once offer a link to a track map of this area?)
I didn't ask who operated trains on those tracks I asked who owned them. :-)
Sorry... I've read it's Conrail.
Sorry... I've read it's Conrail.
Which was split between NS and CSX, yeah? So CSX could well be the correct answer to Stephen's question ....
Let me be more precise. What about the land under the tracks and the air rights above them? :-)
Checking my offline copy of the map, the Grand Junction Running Track is owned by CSX from CP-3 on the ex-Conrail Boston Line to 'H' interlocking, owned by the MBTA.
CSX has trackage rights from there to Revere Jct. and then down to the port.
The SEPTA Holiday Trolley is running again this year, in sort of a makeshift way. Due to the Girard Ave light rail project construction, there is no power on 11th & 12th Sts in Center City, and the usual route cannot run. A substitute is running on the subway-surface diversion route, from 40th St El station to 49th & Chester, then looping over 49th to Woodland and back via the diversion to 40th St El. Service is free and runs every 20 minutes from 11 AM to 6 PM. Apparently car 2732 is handling the honors for now; whether any of the other PCC's will operate is not known at this time.
I thought I heard that SEPTA was using two PCCs...
I'm hoping that I'll be able to travel to Philadelphia over the Christmas holidays for a couple of days, to ride and photograph this amoung serveral other things, but I honestly don't think the likelyhood of it happening to be very high.
-Robert King
I guess it won't have as many tourists riding it as it had in previous years, but at least it's running. And it's good to hear that construction is proceeding on the Girard Avenue light rail project. Is SEPTA replacing the trolley wire? That might be why they can't run the Holiday Trolley down its usual route.
The wire is being replaced in several places and significant portions of track have been replaced as well. The power issue (none on the Girard Ave line now due to construction) seems to be what is precluding the usual Holiday Trolley operation in Center City.
Also, I've heard that Red Arrow-schemed 2799 has joined 2732 in the service.
An update - apparently the initial publicity failed to mention that the Holiday Trolley only runs Thu thru Sun, not 7 days a week, although it will also run on 12/24. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
Didn't see this posted today, so here's Ray Sanchez' column in Monday's Newsday on the computer problem the R-142 is having right now with its accelleration speed.
Also a little note at the bottom of the column on the appropriation of some of the WTC cement planters for either use at the East New York yard or (allegedly) elsewhere.
They accelerate too fast. THAT'S the problem?? So long as people aren't falling off the seats or on top of each other, it should not be a problem. Oh and as to O'Leary's analogy, I think if anyone immediately floors the gas after starting their car, then they shouldn't be allowed to even have a car. He also said they get jerked back a liitle bit. A little bit. Considering that I've ridden older subway cars and have been jerked back on them, this acceleration thing should not be a big deal at all.
Okay, so those cars accelerate too fast and jerk people around in them, causing discomfort. Has Mr. O'Leary ever ridden in an R-36 before? IMO, those cars are the standard-bearers for rough pickup and rough ride (owing to their light wieght in comparison with the rest of the subway fleet).
This is just another example of NYCT slowing the system down even more in a belated effort to make it safer (recent events prove that it's a lot better to get in and out of the system as fast as you can). Before you know it, there be so many timers in so many places in the subway that it'll be better if one gets out and walks.
or takes a electrified scoter there faster than the Queens blvd express. hell a G train bet us to queens plaza once.
Who won?
Arti
The MTA would rather colse all subways than have them run at full speed. what is it to them when they never even steped in a subway car in there whloe life. I don't even think they can even drive a car, they have never been behind the wheel, its was always a limo.
Typical "journalism". No news, no information, no issue. Just some "reporter" who doesn't like the MTA.
But you've got to admit: what he said is absolutely true.
- Lyle Goldman
Sometimes I think Al O'Leary talks too much.
he is there to say "you can't even die in the subway if you inject yourself with battery acid"
When did they put the armor plates on the collectors?
when they gota payraise
Accellerating too fast is the problem? Maybe they should ride other transit systems like SEPTA and BART.You can feel the accelleration in SEPTA's M4s and B4s. You can feel a the force pushing you into your seat.
Right on David B. with the acceleration on SEPTA's M-4 and B-4 cars.I just rode the Market-Frankford M-4s on Thanksgiving and those cars really acan move. I said it before New York has one of the greatest systems around if they could only let there subway cars act like rapid transit. Instaed they like snail transit, and it seems that the riding public dosen't mind but they will complain about everything else like fare hikes and the like. Go figure.
There is a speed limitation on TA subway trackage just as there was the same on the New Haven Line when the French turbos were introduced twenty five years ago. R142s are capable of LIRR speeds on new trackage.....read into this.....new trackage. Just shoot a level on subway tracks and you'll know why suspension bushings of insufficient density are wearing out of the traction rods and have to be replaced almost every SM. Also is the distance of each station and the legnth of each train...on local tracks it's time to slow down before peak speed is reached. TA didn't make a mistake in speed limitation...even the train set is designed to acknowledge passengers trying to stuff themselves in with closing doors by automatic jogging. Peter
If an individual bought one automobile that was a lemon, under NY law it could be returned and the money refunded (big headaches.) Now consider the TA and how they got federal funding: they bought a lot of cars costing 1.4 Mil each...and they got some lemons. A lot of lemons assembled in New York State. A big headache.
The TA made a set of specifications that Bombardier had to use in assembling SOAC 'new techs.' The motors weren't modified nor the propulsion system. It all boils down to the dealer and hardware/software that is not working properly. The Car Equipment Department can only work with the vendors and wait (hope) for improvements. By the way, the brakes do work and the trains do stop properly and passengers are safe. The problem is that the brake units supplied are eating the brake shoes and THAT is an expense which Bombardier will probably eat reluctantly.
As for Mr. O'Learys comments, I will just echo my supervisors point that TA has always been a home for immigrants. I find it terribly annoying and disrespectful of my technical skills when dealing with others who may have more experience in some matter when they start babbling in jabberwocky in front of me despite TA regs.
'Let MTA get you there.' It's safe. Peter
I think the acceleration rate is a paramater set in the software; it shouldn't be too hard to change.
-Robert King
Hey there all my fellow train buffs ( fellow employee buffs, etc)...the good word is out that the Long Island Railroad is gonna begin testing 24 M-7 cars out on the railroad beginning possibly either next month or January. A friend of mine tells me that, by word of LIRR employees he talked with, that 24 will begin the testing phase, as I said possibly next month or January. Keep your eyes to the rails. If anyone who posts here and reads this is a LIRR employee, please confirm for me if this is true (a train enthusiast needs the inside update info :-) )
I'd better get my ass up to the LIAR country to do some railfanning before all the Railfan windows disappear.
No railfan window on the m-7 ??
It has a transverse cab. I do not know if there is a railfan portal or not. Most commuter cars have transverse or vestabule cabs and retain a good railfan view so there is still hope.
There is none. The cab will go across the front of the train with locked entrance with no window just like the bi-levels.
Babylon737
Assistant Conductor
In transit terms.... a transverse cab. Much relief to the crews although they may have space they won't do much sitting due to their fare collection duties.
How do the cabs work when not in use as people/conductors still have to pass between cars.
they don't care. for as much as we know they could out right sell every square in of LIRR ROW.
The same way they work on the bi-level cab cars. The end door to the cab closes halfway to become a corner cab. Actually, I don't see why they can't drive and leave the door that way. But, a lot of engineers hate people at the front window. I remeber in the 80's, a lot of them strung a chain across to keep people out.
Fuc* them
of course, typical LIRR, the engineer will have the door open and his feet hanging out.
And besides the RailFan window issue, IMHO, a window out the front is a safety feature in the event that a car needs to be evacuated, if there's an accident, and also when the car is midtrain to spot trouble.
IMHO, the *only* reason the LIRR's doing what they're doing is because of the constant pissing and moaning from LIRR engineers who refuse to close the damm door, and get bent out of shape if god forbid anyone wants to watch out the front. There's no operational reason for it, and i think the safety ones are pretty bogus too.
That's seldom the case anymore. The FRA cracked down on them (and on a bunch of other things, like running the MP15's cab-forward) about 10 years ago, and those end cab doors are usually shut. Bear it mind that the end door on the LIRR is locked, but on MN is unlocked. It has always been that way. The FRA actually has long since ruled the door be left unlocked for quick evacuations, but the LIRR got a waiver in 1968 to lock them.
Why is running an MP-15 short hood forward a violation? Freight railroads do it all the time with their old EMD switchers.
Probbably a dumb technicality. Anyway, I've seen MP's running short end first recently, many a time. IMHO, if the ASC system allows it, why not? If anything, it gives the crew a better view out.
BTW - did the LIRR run their ALCO and other high nose diesels long hood first, short hood, or both?
Alcos: usually short hood first, but both. They may have been dual control stands on some of them, I don't know.
As for the MP15's, the engineer how to twist arround in his seat and drive left-handed. That's why in the 1990's, the sole consist of 2900 cars on the Oyter Bay branch, 6 car train, got 2 MP-15's back-to-back.
Reverse driving is sort of unsafe, but it is not outlawed by the FRA at least for freight engines. Passenger may be different.
actually railfan windows on LIRR aint goin nowhere that quick. the M-3s are scheduled to stay, i think they are getting GOH and sticking around.
The M-3 was built in 1982-83 by Budd, so next year will make it near 20 years old....still good enough to run the rails longer. A good overhaul will do the trick just fine....little hard work and the cars will go on for at least another 10 years. I'll say this, I believe the M-3 will outlast the DE/DM 30 and the C-3 bilevels simply because, like most things built before the 90s, THEY ARE BUILT TO LAST!! While modern equipment, all light weight crap, computer processors, all built in makes for products which'll be more expensive to repair due to all the software and stuff for the computers, and lightweight steel which fatigues easily as seen by the steel cracks in the DE/DMs shortly ago, are not anywhere near as reliable. MTA like most agencies believes in cost cutting by way of cheaper price components to save $$$, which in turn makes for a "not so reliable" piece of equipment. Expect at least (minimum) 10 years of additional service by the M-3.
they will transverse the M-3 then I bring my $100 show them to the operator, he lets me in and I get a perfect view!
The M-3 was built in 1986. Prendergast said several years ago that 130 "better" M-1's will be retained (probably cherry-picking from the 152 GE ones o 1972). I don't know if that is still the case with the option orders.
It won't be hard to spot the '7s, they're butt ugly.
I wanna catch them when they start doing the high speed endurance testing - they basically run them flat out.
Ugly!? I Love these cars, I don't know something about the black in the front that makes the soooo attractive, I guess that's why I love the R110A, R110B, R142, R142A and R143 soooo much.
These Photos were taken at MNRR Open House (No the car wasn't there but with a digital camera you can take pics of pics)...
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Is the M-7 85ft or 75ft long? I ask because I'm looking at the Window sections along the side of the car. Are the windows bigger then the earlier vintages of M-class cars? They don't seem to have a big selection of seats for those of us that are Seatanally orientated! It would be nice if somebody could cut & Paste some seats from an R/110A or R/142 In , just for shifts and giggles.
If they ran these babies on the CPW run, the Kids that dothe Break Dancing Routine would really have a Ball.(Sic)
avid
LOL! You know you must be as frequent a (A) train rider along the CPW as I am because I see them kids just about everytime I take the (A) along that stint.
I believe these cars are the same specs as the previous M class cars 85 Feet Long by Whatever Feet wide. What they did do is spaced the doors away from the end of the cars more, so that's why the center area looks smaller, but the other areas have been made longer and that's due to the use of the newer and more spacious transverse engineers cab.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I sure hope that they are going to get more seats than that. If they really wanted to maximize room they should go w/ vestabule doors like all the other single level coaches out there.
The deal is that, that is a Push Pull design. These are MUs that are carrying a semi-Subway car design. It would be different if these were MUs that were carrying a Push Pull design (Like NJT's GE MA-1H and 1J "Arrow 3" MUs), but they are not!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trev,these cars look like push pull cars from Metro North with a different end bonnet. Do they have the single door leaf also?
Yeap, instead of the standard double sliding doors they have a single leaf sliding door in the place of the double sliders!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
My life has now changed forever with the knowledge of that information.
I can no longer eat solid food.
I can no longer sleep effectively.
I have to drop out of college.
I have to quit my job.
I'll have to move to a log cabin in Alaska with no electricity or running water.
I'll have to totally disconnect myself with civilization.
I should also mention that I don't care for the single-leaf doors.
I really don't like them.
I hate the way they look.
They did it on purpose. Just to disgust me. But why? Why does there have to be a huge conspiracy against me? What have I ever done that was so bad?
Somebody please tell me why those cars have single-leaf doors.
My theory: So that the poor little darlings will only have to maintain half as many door motors.
Given LIRR maintenance and tool-shed engineering, you will often see an entire vestibule without door service. It also means one big fat door pocket with no window.
Had MN had any say into the car design (they did not, they wanted hopper windows), this wouldn't have happened.
Again, the MTA allowing a politically immune and inept LIRR to make capital decisions.
Fire 'em all.
The side doors didn't show up in the pics, but let me just say this - they BETTER be double-pane doors!
If they are single-paned, like in the previous drawings, I'm gonna have some serious mental breakdowns.
Well prepare to be a resident at Bellevue becuase they are NOT double pane. It is single pane like the Kawasaki Double Decker cars.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I Love these cars, I don't know something about the black in the front that makes the soooo attractive
No, that just makes them a hazard at grade crossings. Look for that to give way to some sort of safety striping.
To Each Is Own!
If you can see the two white lights at the bottom and then the combination of those two bright ass Railroad lights at the top, then the combination of the horn. Then something is TERRIBLY wrong with you. They had/still have Dark Blue locomotives that go through grade crossings too. So it's about color..It's about the balls people have to take a chance and cross a grade after SEVERAL warnings have been given that a train is comming (Horns, crossing lights and bells).
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I guess they learned to install the top lights before vs. after delivery.
Mr rt__:^)
You know that and I know that and most other normal people know they are responsible for their own actions, but there are some people whom you wonder what's the story upstairs.
Things have to be idiot proof these days.
Like coffee cups;
"CAUTION - BEVERAGE IS EXTREMELY HOT!"
I can just see someone making a big stink over the fact that it says the beverage is hot, but not the cup itself!
BTW - If you start hearing hacking coughs around you, you'll know the Jacobi & Myers bus is coming to YOUR neighborhood!
They are not completely black there is yellow where the present equipment is yellow. Seems you like to give commuters credit for not falling out doors, opened by incompetent crews, that don't platform. But, can't give the same credit to a motorist crossing at a grade. Most of the time they're the same people.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not all grade crossings have bells, lights, gates or whistles. Day/Night front end visibility is very important.
All grade crossings on the LIRR and MN have gates,.
Anyway, I think a new body design is a stupid idea because the current one is fine, lighter, and proven. AFAIK, nothing at the FRA has changed it's legality - the M-6s delivered in '96 use the same body.
As far as front visability, my guess is the black front will give way to MN style stripping sooner or later.
And would the LIRR ditch that pathetic pantograph gate and rubber seal setup? I won't even BEGIN to say what that rubber ring around the door makes the front end look like....Not to mention it's not very areodynamic, will collect dirt like crazy, and could have been replaced with a more elegant solution.
You know, it's scary, the combined resources of all of us could probbably design a more suiteable railcar...
Any designs anyone?
I'm very content with the current M-7 design!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The black is only on the bonnett and around the windows.
The rest of the train is stainless steel which is highly reflective. I wouldn't be too concerned that people won't be able to see these trains at crossings. If the people can't see the M-7's coming down the track, then surely they should be having grade crossing accidents aplenty with current LIRR equipment!!
BMTman
Does any one know if these cars are single units or married pairs? Any Idea what the car #s will be?
Assume that they are married pairs since the cars come w/full-width cabs.
BMTman
Since when does that imply married pairs. Some SEPTA MU's are single units and they have full width cabs.
Well since the LIRR M-1s and 3s are married pairs, I think BMTmans assumption is a safe bet.
Peace,
ANDEE
Married pairs are cheaper to produce overall, and are the norm -- typically -- for MTA purchases...or haven't you noticed???
BMTman
The Series #s will start with.....(DRUMROLL)
7000
Regards,
Trevor Logan
So now they are going to trample on number once used by the GOH's P54 ping-pongs, now that they are gone 27 years.
Nonetheless, after the 1st grade-crossing accident, a savage ambulance-chasing lawyer will sew and win over that black front end.
Jurors always give in to victims, however stupid, at the expense of the RR.
Still two doors on each side? I always thought that a third door would be handy to avoid crowding at Penn Station.
Nice bright interior, the M-1's are kinda dark and dingy in comparison. Well the M-1
was a great car for it's time, but it is time for something new. Hopefully speedwise the M-7's will be just as good or better than the current LIRR electric fleet.
The light fixtures are longitudinal rather than transverse. That makes a lot of difference. I still wish they kept the old body design. It would have saved on cost. I wonder if they will t=run in multiple wi the M-1 and 3 ?
Nope, Don't think so, these will be A/C Traction powered cars while the previous M Class EMUs are DC Traction, WILL NOT WORK IN A TRAILLINE!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Well, the NJT Arrow-2's (DC) ran in multiple with the GOH Arrow-3's (AC) on the M&E. DC and AC locomotives run in multiple using the exact same MU concept.
The only difference is now that we are talking about newer technology AC Traction, I just HIGHLY doubt that the LIRR or MNRR will mix the M-7s with the earlier stuff!
Yeah but look how long that Arrow 2-Arrow 3 Combination runs lasted, Like a snowball in hell!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
MN does not mix M1 with M3, but does M2 with 4 and 6.
If they can run in multiple, LIRR will do it. They mixed MP75's with the oldest MP54's of 1908.
Arrow 2 and 3 combos lasted until the Arrow-2's were scrapped. The point is, it can be done.
DC and AC locomotives run in multiple using the exact same MU concept.
But it negates the tractive effort advantaged of the AC locomotive. You have to run the train like it was all DC powered. Otherise you risk frying the DC mototrs.
Thank You! Also I took a look at the specifications of all the M Class cars in the MTA railroads fleet.
The reason why you can trailine M1-M3s together & M2-M4-M6s together is because the specifications don't stray far from each other. There are minor differences but nothing that could keep the cars from Trainlining with each other.
On the other hand you have the M7s which are a totally new specification. There are exactly what everyone calls them, The R-142s Of Commuter Rail. Similar Operating Systems (Microprocessor Control, etc.), AC Traction, and so on. Which will keep the M7s trainlining with each other. No doubt they will try to test a mix out, But I guarantee a paycheck that the test fail.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Certainly the exterior profiles alot like the M-1s. I do notice that the MARS lights come built-in from the factory, unlike the add-ons that the LIRR fleet received. And that black trim around the windows and bonnett give the cars a likeness to the R-142s.
The interior looks quite devoid of seating. Is that an unfinished car, or are the seats somehow hidden in the walls for maximum ADA clearance???
BMTman
More than likely it is for ADA compliance, although it is safe to assume due to the needs of service there will be more seats. Do remember the M-7 is in the testing phase, and will not have its full compliment of seats, just like the R-143 is devoid of seats now while it is in testing. The seats will be added back in when that train goes into its first revenue service time. You can say the same is also for the M-7.
Thanks....
Those are not MARS lights. A MARS (tm) light is an occilating lamp fixture that gives an appearance of blinking from in front of the train (like lights on old police cars). A "Ditch" light is what is required on all US locomotives. While they do flash on and off, they are not a MARS (tm) might.
2 complaints.. 1 " transverse cab".........2..NO ..... ."railfan window".......................
otherwise it reminds me of Atlanta ......etc...
Oh Get Over It, The entire industry is heading to Transverse cabs becuase of a Federal Mandate. Just Get Over It, the Era of Railfan Windows are DONE!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
What federal mandate is that ?
Long explaination, but to sum it up quickly, real quickly....Any new FRA mandated equipment such as the EMUs, Push Pull, etc. can no longer carry a "railfan window" style engineer's area. I can't really explain it, a Engineer on LIRR explained it to me one time and it's kinda jumbled in my brain right now.
But its almost like that rule that NO new elevators can have the little windows on the door.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
What? You mean lifts that take people from one floor to another? No window in those???
Yep Sir, Found out that any building that is replacing thier elevators brand new, or any new structure's elevators CAN NOT have windows on the doors.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Why on earth is that? I was on the new elevators at Friendship Heights's Jenifer Street enterance today and now they have 4 windows in the door, not just 1. Then again, its not a totally new elevator, its just being rehabbed.
Its a NY thing! I don't know if any other state/city has introduced this law.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
replacd with new crap ............!!!!.....................
& not made in the USA !! ........& by USA union paid workers ...........
@ not ..lol....here...
The interior of the M-7 in the picture looks great. I also like the extorior of the car which has a passing resemblence to the 1100 series MUs. The only thing I would like to see are the reversible seats like the ones in the 1100 series MUs because they were so comfortable. I would also like to see high ceilings that would give the car a spacious feel inside.
#3 West End Jeff
I am an Assistant Conductor and that is the word I am hearing, also possibly March is also what I am hearing
Thanks for the good word. By the way how do you feel about the transverse cab? As a NYC Transit conductor, believe me sometimes the tranverse cab equipment here (R-44, R-46, R-68/68A, R-110B) in the B division is a God send!!! One can actually sit down instead of lengthy periods of standing typical of the older equipment here (R-32, R-38, R-40/40M, R-42) You might find the transverse cab a God send too!! :-)
Yahh and when do you invite us in the cabs. And why do you hang newspapers on the railfan windows? and why can't we see your control panel and speedometer? and the whole tunnel is double visioned? huh huh?
I going to like it when I am working early AM's
And these trains are built by the same company that built the R142's? Somebodies in for a world of hurt......
There will be as heavy as MP54s and will not make some schedules of today. They should have had Kawasaki replicate the M3 and be done with it.
It's time for the M-1s that are taken out of service to be exiled to the Island of Staten. There to toil on th the S.I.R.T., liberating the R/44s currently imprisoned on that remote Island.
These same liberated R/44s can then be restored to society and redeem themselves by doing community service in car starved borros.
There are at least sixty political prisoners being held on that God forsaken island.
FREE THE R-FORTY-FOURS! FREE THE R-FORTY-FOURS!
That would be seven and a half train sets!
The "G" train deserves this quality service.
avid
I couldn't agree more. I suggested just that 6 months ago, although I got no support.
I suggested it one year ago and had my head chewed off!
avid
everybody pass out ...........OMG ........call the police!! we should fall down on our knees here .... lol
i do want to comment on this later ...lol !!
correction .....sorry...
ok now we have 3 car trainsets running on our blue line light rail ........wooopeeee!!
WOW ..
>>> now we have 3 car trainsets running on our blue line light rail <<<
This should reduce some of the rush hour crowding. Also, they changed the arrangement at the 7th Street terminal. Now all trains come in on Platform 1 and discharge their passengers, and reverse beyond the station and return on Platform 2 to pick up passengers.
Previously during rush hours, the trains would come in alternately to Platform 1 and 2 and reverse in the station, leaving alternately from each platform. The problem was that these are side platforms that must be reached by different stairways from the mezzanine above or the Red line platforms below. It was possible to come up to one platform from the Red line and see the doors close in front of you and have to go back downstairs and across to the other platform to catch the next train. This was frustrating to the riders and unnecessarily increased the foot traffic during rush hour.
Tom
So in other words, they're back to how it was in the beginning of the Bleu Line.....makes more sense anyway.
What really makes me SICK is how our ""board of los angeles supervisors"" .....& that IDIOT Yvonne. B. burke.......( IDIOT ) ..!!!
who ""has dirrareeea of the mouth"" with her jive about the LATE kenny hann >vision< of the blue line ....etc....... UGH !!
WAS supposed to run on ONE LINE all the way to pasadena THRU 7th & metro center not STOP there !!! & end there ...!!!....lol!!!
& then you have to transfer to the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE below to the los angeles UNION STATION
so you can START your trip to & from the { pasadena blue line } ??????? ( construction 2 be done aprox 2003 ) .....lol...!!!..??
MAN WE SHOULD ALL FALL DOWN ON OUR KNEEES AND PHRAISE our ( F___)ed up board of supervisors .........UGH ..!!!
blue line pico station after 3 car modify longer length construction ....etc.... !!!
Why do you keep calling the Red Line to Nowhere. It serves the Wilshire Corridor, Vermont Ave(LACC) Hollywood and the Univeersal City/No Hollywood Area. Just because it does not go to pasadena means it is not going to nowhere
ok i got a tape from a talk show... "" JUDD MACELVAIN"".. that deals with this subject right on !!!
He still does his consumer>>>> "" dont get scammed & ripped off''''<<<< talk show on KRLA 870
every saturday aprox 2 pm .....&......................
The RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE ........ got its proper ( earned name ) a long time
ago when it was being built remember ???
I thought KRLA was 1070 FM aND 870 WAS knf am
nope !! try again ............lol!!!.....he he he he he he ...
It has since recovered and does serve 130,000 boardings a day. Now with the new retail-entertainment complex by TriZechHahn at Hollywood-Highland directly over the station.
>>> It has since recovered and does serve 130,000 boardings a day. <<<
Having ridden the Red Line both at rush hour and non-rush hour times, I am suspicious of the published boardings figure. Since the only thing that can be counted directly is the one way and round trip tickets purchased in the stations, I suspect there is an overly generous estimate of the number of boardings with transfers and monthly passes.
Tom
>>> Just because it does not go to pasadena means it is not going to nowhere <<<
Watch that Bob!! You will face the wrath of a legion of little old ladies for dissing Pasadena. :-)
Tom
Everyone says that there's nobody meaner than the litle old lady from Pasdena.
Peace,
ANDEE
The little old ladies from Pasadena are probably deceased by now or moved on to a better place
>>> The little old ladies from Pasadena are probably deceased by now or moved on to a better place <<<
You mean a place like Arcadia? ;-)
Tom
I *swore* to myself that I wasn't going to pick up another thread to monitor but Geez ...
MEOW! Heh.
yeah near the Slow Beach Fanatic
Only 2 sub talkers are from that area, Salaam and Slow Bunch Fred in Arcadia
>>> Only 2 sub talkers are from that area, Salaam and Slow Bunch Fred in Arcadia <<<
Just because they do not post does not mean the little old ladies are not lurking. It is true as a group they do tend to have other interests than rail fanning. (They tend to post to the newsgroup "alt.musclecars") :-)
Tom
"">>only 2 subtalkers are form "that area" Salaam & Sea Beach in Arcadia Ca. @ & MANY OTHERS 'U' dont know <<......lol!!
As for the ol' ladies that whent out in th 1960s !!! NO MORE !!!
anyway we are here all from elsewhere ( both born & raised ) in our bloved home NYC & other northeast states towns & cities !!!
LOL !!! LOL!!!
What I liked best about Pasadena was UCLA plays in the Rose Bowl, and the Rose Bowl Sweep meet on the 1st Sunday each month, also a place to pass thru the smog on the way to Palm Springs from the Valley on the 210 sloway
Did you say the ROSE BOWL in pasadena ?? .....Well last 11 9 01 my ALUMNI marching drum section rocked it to death !!
I shoot stills & video of them every year plus our pratice sessions & other parades we finish off the doo dah parade too.
I believe rg canning handles the swap met at the rose bowl parking is usually not a problem ..... lol!!
( please excuse my off topic pic ) this is our drum section i am a member of ""jammin"" inside the rose bowl ...!!!
LOL !!
Go BRUINS U C L A UCLA Fight Fight Fight
how did you like my drum section ??
Go Bruins I alread said that
no. thats not my question....
I know, but I liked it
hehe LOL ?!?!?!?!.......!!!
Other than trying to start a fight what is the point of this message. You complain about other people posting off topic then you post junk like this.
i posted my drum section that was the question..
the subwaysurf response ..................( oh well U know ) ...........................ugh !
>>>the subwaysurf response.....<<<
WHAT in th blue hell are you talking about??????????.....LOL HEHEHE///!!!!what a putz
i saw you little ..."sneaky"...response ....lol!!
all ..... people is the devil. You ARE the master of "sneaky"...
get a life live enjoy !! >>>>> grow up young man !!
Keep it up..and I'll post links to your websites
put all of your links first ... all of your websites links etc... all of the sites that ........
sites you own & visit the whole list all of them & your real name address all of your e mails everything !!!
yawwn
Andee has a way of alienatting people. If you are not interested in the link between Salaam or myself, just pass it by, you do not have to make your childish remarks, that are none of your damn business
the problem is mr. andee does not go to my e mail like you have and others should etc...
Instead he uses this discussion board to vent off..... ( david pirmanss ) subtalk
he should do as the rest of us do here. Obey the rules and reg. of this discussion board
& remain { on toipic } like you & i and the rest of us do here ..........lol !!
Just ignore him, he is just a kid
I have no other sites than this....but a person (i hate calling you a person) like you will likely find some you stupid SOB.
Peace,
ANDEE
Could you please stop fighting with salaam? Salaam and train Dude stooped long ago salaam said nothing offensive stop looking for a flame war where there isn't one.
Do you want some of the URLs to his REAL websites?
I believe that cockroaches should be exposed for what they are.
Peace,
ANDEE
[Do you want some of the URLs to his REAL websites?]
I have seen some of the links. I have also seen the way salaam has acted on this sites towards other and I believe that actions speak louder than words.
[I believe that cockroaches should be exposed for what they are.]
And you have down a good job on yourself.
chill out ..... ok ??
Salaam, I was taking your side. I think SUBWAYSURF was being a jerk.
my apology sir ..............
apology accepted
by the way i stepped out on the town tonight bought todays fridays edition of the los angeles times 11 30 01
the article on the PASADENA GOLD LINE ( light rail from hastings ranch in pasadena to the UNION station L.A. )
a very interesting article on the how what where and why of the change of name from the original BLUE LINE ...etc...
i will try ot OCR & edit this better !!! epson / twain 1999 OCR scan on a epson 2500 scanner ...lol!!!
( thank you ) ... salaamallah
Hey Saalam, as I said GO Bruins
i am sorry but this is the "turkey tussle" an alumni event between pasadena high school ( red & white )
& john muir high school ( blue & gold ) - colors-like-ucla- NOVEMBER 9 2001 ( not ucla ) !!!!!!!!!!
the picture ( off topic ) my apology to subtalk is my drum section J.M.A.D.A an alumni marching drum sction inside the bowl ...
you can visit my photo page at below enter it in your url then chck it out ..
.. http://photos.yahoo.com/jmada1970... & the digital page bing loaded at ... http://photos.yahoo.com/jmadadrums...
hop this clears up the fog on this !!! .................lol!!! do you think the pasadena GOLD LINE will go thru arcadia ?? it should !!
lol !!!
Nah. Go Cardinal!!!
He showed the UCLA Band, not the Stanford, as long as it is not USC. (Pay the fee, get your degree)
I know. I just love Stanford!
Im Still a Bruin
I'm from West L.A.
what part of W LA. Technically W LA is zip code 90025
90064. Cheviot Hills.
Hated those ****ing racists.
Castle Hts School and Palms Junior High?? Dated a lot of girls in that area, and Beverlywood
Castle Heights from Kindergarten to 4th, Wonderland for 5th, and Palms Middle School for 6th through 8th.
No them well, Palms back then was Jr High
At Castle Heights, in Kindergarten, the 5th and 6th grades simultaneously graduated.
Had a couple of old girl friends who lived around the corner from Castle Hts School in the early 60s.
The commnet on " the littl ol' lady from pasadena " did seem out of place ( the post after yours ) No!! I did not say the
{ RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE } got its correct ( handle ) from all of the natives who live in the affected AREA..
Many who were the VICTIMS of the ""subway to nowhere""............@ please note !!....had - nuttin' 2 do with 'a' pasadena !!!!...
>>>>>>>..........lol....!!!...<<<<<<.... big time ......
Sure aint like this real rail system in NYC my favorite the #7 line ...........woooooooppppppeeeee !!
LOL !!! .................LOL !!!
The commnet on " the little ol' lady from pasadena " did seem out of place ( the post after yours ) No!! I did not say the
{ RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE } got its correct ( handle ) from all of the natives who live in the affected AREA..
Many who were the VICTIMS of the ""subway to nowhere""............@ please note !!....had - nuttin' 2 do with 'a' pasadena !!!!...
>>>>>>>..........lol....!!!...<<<<<<.... big time ......
Sure aint like this real rail system in NYC my favorite the #7 line ...........woooooooppppppeeeee !!
LOL !!! .................LOL !!!
There's STAPLES and The LAKERS!!! You're right Burke is an idiot. She and Yaroslavsky won't lay off their dream of Curitiba busways.
You forgot the Clippers and the Kings
You're right. Gotta like the Clippers and the Kings, but GO LAKERS!!!
"This should reduce some of the rush hour crowding. Also, they changed the arrangement at the 7th Street terminal. Now all trains come in on Platform 1 and discharge their passengers, and reverse beyond the station and return on Platform 2 to pick up passengers."
I don't think this is achange from what they previously did. During rush hours, all trains would discharge at track 1 and layup onto track 2 where they pick up passengers. During other hours, trains would all layup onto track 2, utilizing the crossover before the station, and discharge and pickup there.
>>> I don't think this is achange from what they previously did. During rush hours, all trains would discharge at track 1 and layup onto track 2 where they pick up passengers. <<<
They may have done that some time ago, but they could not do it with three car trains until they increased the length of the tail tracks beyond the station. The current schedules specifically show which platform the departure is from during rush hours. The extension of the tail tracks has been completed, so they are going back to the original method.
Tom
Nice picture, too bad you did not get the train in the old PE Red colors
Yeah, but if it were a three-car train, the looks would be ruined by a blue or yellow car in there somewhere. Only two cars were done, 109 and 148.
Someone asked "Why those two?" when they came out of the paint shop. No special significance, they were just the two trains that were scheduled for repainting at the time. I live 25 miles from the Blue Line and have YET to catch them running!!! One of these days I'll stake out a spot in Long Beach and wait.
.
It took a moment to figure out the "mozart" reference, but I can "handel" it now.
lol
Get Pictures
i got a lot of pics of the "" old & new paint scams"" used on them !!! .....lol !!!
>>> I live 25 miles from the Blue Line and have YET to catch them running!!! <<<
Probably rush hour would be the best time to see them, and possibly you should not stake them out in Long Beach because some trains turn short at Willow.
I have seen the red train twice, once as a red flash outside of the left hand windows of the train I was riding, and once at the Rosa Parks station while I was waiting for a connecting bus.
Tom
i correected this ........lol
the "" long bach"" ....... was a keyboard error
No, it's not going to be extended to Providence :( However, as early as Dec. 17 SLE service might be extended to Stamford and Brigeport in an effort to better capture the commuter markets of those two cities. This might be due to the post 9/11 flight of bussinesses out of Manhattan and into the satilite cities. Now more commuters along the Shoreline will be able to get a one seat ride to their destination. The expanded service is said not to require any new trains or crews, but some re-timing might occur. From a railfan point of view this might mean seeing the GP-40WH's and the CDoT SPV's hang around for a few more years to meet the expanded service demands.
Mike,
Would this really work? I realize many businesses have been relocated, but before 9/11...did many people in the cities and towns east of New Haven actually commute into NYC on a daily basis? We are talking about a two hour plus one-way ride here. Or have there been so many commuters on the New Haven Line since 9/11, that the Shoreline East would be extended to add more trains into service to meet the passenger demand? -Nick
The SLE extension has been planned for a while. Lots of commuters commute by rail to Stamford, so it gets rid of a train switch for them.
Interestingly, this also conflicts with Amtrak's agreement with MN, which effectively prohibits them from running commuter service in MN territory. I've heard talk that Metro-North might be handed the whole SLE (cross fingers here!)
Should be interesting to see.
If M/N took over Shoreline East...could the electric MU equipment
run up to Old Saybrook/New London without a problem....any thoughts???
No. The voltage changes just east of NH. The MU's lack the tap converters that could handle that.
I don't see Shore Line East service being extended south to Bridgeport & Stanford. You would have to turn the trains around at those points and store them in between trips, causing operational conflicts with MNCRR & AMTRAK trains. In addition, commuters can easily take New Haven bound MNCRR service and easily connect with ShoreLine East. No need to have duplication of services.
If they get as far West at Stamford the turning should be easy, but you right it duplicates service.
The only point to be made is that we are only talking about a few trains a day that Shore Line East would run. The plan begs the question: how many folks do they think would use this service per day (100, 500, 1,000) ? And if it's already a big money looser, how much more of a looser would the additional service cost ?
My point is the service makes since between New Haven & New London, or even to Providence if enough folks need it, but West of NH is a whole different situation.
Mr rt__:^)
It seems like a total overlap of service, why not extend the other way so it reaches areas not served by rail.
"It seems like a total overlap of service, why not extend the other way so it reaches areas not served by rail."
West it's about a one seat ride on a few trains ... OK if it generates business, a big waste if just benifits the same few.
East it's traffic traffic traffic, or more to the point the lack of same. The Amtracks probally provide enough service. The area gets pritty sparce East of New London.
Heck, they can't even find enough folks to go between New Haven & Hartford/Springfield AND a lot of folks live between those two cities.
But the real problem is that CT is a rubber tire state, i.e. not much interest in mass transit on steel wheels.
I have a 1917 map that shows you could get to almost any big city in the whole state by NH back then. Plus you had a lot of trolley lines running all over the place.
Mr rt__:^)
I've always felt that there should be another commuter railroad line between New Haven and Hartford. What do you guys think of this idea?
- Lyle Goldman
Bring back the New York New Haven and Hartford, EP6s and jets and washboards and Orange White and Black paint jobs
My observation is that many bus stops are designed to stop as far as possible from a subway exit. One case in point - the M14 bus makes silly stops as far as it can get from the subway entrance/exits. The eastbound bus stops west of University Place where no subway entrance is located. At best, the bus should stop east of University Pl to allow passengers to enter the subway with some ease. The westbound M14 is just as bad. It stops hundreds of feet short of the subway entrance between Irving Place and Union Sq East, almost in defiance of making a subway connection. Then the next stop is far beyond Union Square West, almost 300 feet from the subway entrance on the east side of Union Sq and 14th. In short, seems like there is lack of coordination on the part of the MTA. Maybe I am wrong, I only know about my borough. What do others think?
Originally (and not that long ago), the bus stops were located very close to the subway entrances, not only where you are citing but elsewhere as well.
One big problem always occurred - crowding. If you have ever noticed the distance between most subway entrances and the nearest building is not that great. As a result people exiting the subway then trying to board the bus (or just getting on line for the bus) and vice versa - people exiting the bus trying to get to the subway can create quite a lot of congestion. To a certain extent it made (and still makes) sense to put a small distance between the 2 to space out the people.
Is it inconvenient - probably. But trying to fight your way into or out of a subway entrance during the rush hour is a lot worse than having to walk 20 feet or so from a bus.
I face this situation every weekday morning at 86 st. Crowds of people for the buses, jockeying for which bus they want to take. (M101, M102, M103, Ex98, and the private lines that drop passengers off). People getting breakfast at Dunkin Donuts and the Hot & Crusty store also add to the congestion.
Monday is particularly bad because people don't seem to realize they have "empty" MetroCards until they reach the station. Yesterday each of the 3 MetroCard machines had a line of 20 people and the token booth had at least 30 people wait to buy fares. All of them blocked access to the turnstiles. What a mess.
[Monday is particularly bad because people don't seem to realize they have "empty" MetroCards until they reach the station. ]
I for sure don't get a new card until the old one is used. Why should I do that?
Arti
Thank you helping to prove my point.
I'll bet if they moved your bus stop even 1/2 block away, people might complain a bit but would find the transfer to/from the subway a bit easier.
On M1 there's a SB stop right at the main entrance of the 28th Street 6 station, the next one is at the now closed 27th Street entrance of the same station.
P.S. Does anyone know if 27th Street is closed forever and why?
Arti
>>P.S. Does anyone know if 27th Street is closed forever and why? <<
It was closed to save money. Is it closed forever? I don't think so but it will stay closed for the time being.
I thought they closed it right after 9/11, so I assumed something to do with security.
Arti
[The eastbound bus stops west of University Place where no subway entrance is located. At best, the bus should stop east of University Pl to allow passengers to enter the subway with some ease. The westbound M14 is just as bad. It stops hundreds of feet short of the subway entrance between Irving Place and Union Sq East, almost in defiance of making a subway connection. Then the next stop is far beyond Union Square West, almost 300 feet from the subway entrance on the east side of Union Sq and 14th. In short, seems like there is lack of coordination on the part of the MTA. Maybe I am wrong, I only know about my borough. What do others think?]
First, keep in mind that, by law, bus stops are PARKING REGULATIONS. Thus, they're governed by NYCDOT, not Transit.
Second, DOT usually doesn't like to put a stop at the near side of - i.e. before - an intersection, due to (1) conflicts and accidents between departing buses and right-turning vehicles; (2) the tendency of pedestrians to just walk out in front of the bus and get hit by passing cars; and (3) the increased curbspace needed by the bus to enter the stop, which means fewer parking spaces. (That's usually the big point with community boards; DOT cares, too, but only if the spots are metered.)
That said, the eastbound stop at the near side of Univeristy Place is OK because University is one-way northbound, so there aren't any right-turn conflicts. Actually, that stop used to be at the far side of University Place - which is almost at the near side of Broadway (one-way southbound), and thus led to the right-turn problem.
Similarly, a westbound stop at the near side of Fourth Avenue would have buses conflicting with right turns from 14th into Fourth. Then again, there used to be a westbound stop at the near side of Union Square West, with an experimental "queue-bypass" signal phase just for the buses; the experiment might have been successful, but it still took signal time away from cars. (Remember, Rudy controls DOT, but not Transit.)
On Dec 15 Metra will roll out it's new GPS tracking system installed on 261 cars and locomotives on all its routes. The new system will allow dispatchers and managers to track train speed, location, station dwell time an other route dynamics. Using the information trouble spots can be identified and then measures can be taken to adequarely improve preformance. Train crews will have an onboard readout of the system to chart the progress of their own train and trains in their vicinity. This will hopefully aid in making usefull and accurate anouncements to the passengers. Starting with those downtown, stations will have the system plugged into anouncement and train arrival boards for a real time status visable to the passengers.
Hope it works. I've heard GPS works pretty crappy when surrounded by tall buildings. The buildings can reflect the signal and confuse the GPS device.
I have had the pleasure of riding round trip on Acela Express from Boston to New Haven this last week. The crowds that were on my train were Holiday-related, but I was thinking about how the ridership has increased on AE since 9/11. When the attacks occured, most flights went back into service within a few days, however the air shuttle service between Boston-New York, New York-Washington DC, and Boston-Washington DC were crippled for quite awhile. So my question is: since the ridership is way up on AE, is it because of the normal air shuttle passengers who tried it cuz they had no other choice (and decided they liked AE better than flying), or is it still mostly people who are afraid to fly, or is it a mixed combination of both these things? -Nick
Nick, I suspect that it's a combination of both factors. I've only ridden Acela Express once, and that was back in June (WAS-NYP), but would definitely ride it again if the occasion required. For me, driving is usually the best option, since I live on the Jersey Coast and my younger daughter lives in Layhill, Maryland (part of Silver Spring, near the Glenmont metro station) - 3.5 hours door-to-door vs. 6 hours for the NJCL train to Newark or NYP, Acela to Washington Union Station, and the Metro to Glenmont. But it was a tremendous ride, and if NYC were my destination rather than Eatontown it would be a much more attractive alternative. I was in the City for a two-day meeting in October (rescheduled from one in Denver on 9/12-9/13) and talked to a couple of folks who had come up from DC on AE. Both were impressed; one had been an occasional Metroliner customer, while for the other (a young woman who I would guess to be in her upper 20s, maybe 30) it was her first train ride ever - and I know it wasn't her last, as she emailed me after riding it all the way to Boston a couple of weeks ago. Yes, some folks are genuinely afraid of flying, and 9/11 just pushed them past the point of no return (my wife included), but I think that probably 75-80% of the sustainable increase in ridership (in other words, those who will continue to ride after air travel returns to semi-normal) is due to the realization that the Acela Express really is the better alternative.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for your input, Mr. Mouse! :-) I hope your travel plans will make AE the best choice in the near future! -Nick
This weeks installment of TUNNEL VISION by Randy Kennedy
Peace,
ANDEE
Someone's gotta school that guy. PATH riding during rush hour hasn't been a picnic since I started riding it every day in 1993. It's been getting steadily worse even before 9/11. No offense but I doubt he ever rode the PATH before 9/11 to see for himself...
Yes, but they let people into Christopher St b4 9/11 didn't they?
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok, so that just means that now it's *worse*. It wasn't like we all had lounge chairs to kick back in and drink our morning coffee beforehand. It was so bad that from Grove St. I would frequently take the 33rd St train to Newport and switch to the Hob-WTC train since it was impossible to board a Nwk-WTC train at Grove in the peak of the rush hour.
Really, I never realized that it was so bad before.
Peace,
ANDEE
Shouldn't PATH be relatively profitable?
Arti
Well that of course depends on their operating and capital expenses, which if you read the papers must outstrip their fare recovery therefore no, they're not profitable.
A train that is at crush density or above is just barely profitable. However, that's only the case during rush hours. The rest of the day (and night; PATH is a 24hr/day operation) they lose money.
That was before 9/11. They lost the busiest station and had to increase security.
You would think so but not including 9/11 especially when the fare was a $1 the PATH was always a lose/lose situation, after the fare hike to $1.50 (before 9/11) the line was doing better to make up the deficet. Now I wouldn't know which way to say 1. Is it more riders plus the original rider beacause of the driving restrictions, or is it 2. less riders because some have chosen Midtown Direct, ferry, bus alternatives or there business has moved? Which do you think?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Whether it is profitable by itself or not isn't an overriding concern. The important things (as I pointed out to the PA during the fare hike comment period) is that it be a) fiscally efficient (not wasting money to no purpose) and more importantly, b) be positioned appropriately as part of a cohesive regional transportation plan.
Sadly, the PA seems to need frequent reminding of this, despite the fact that they used to know it - for example, they understood that they had to take over the H&M's rail operation when it went bankrupt, since otherwise their Hudson vehicular crossings would be overwhelmed.
They completely missed the point again when they talked about raising the PATH and tunnel tolls, where 2 people carpooling through a tunnel or bridge would pay less for a round trip than the same two people riding the PATH train. The last thing they needed was to encourage people to drive as a cost-saving measure. There is still some inequity in the pricing, since the vehicular crossings are 17 cents per person (round trip, 3 per car, toll of $1.00, E-Zpass) - see the toll rate table on the PA web site.
Various intangibles need to be considered, such as the benefit of less traffic in Manhattan, lower pollution, etc.
Sadly, the PA seems to need frequent reminding of this, despite the fact that they used to know it - for example, they understood that they had to take over the H&M's rail operation when it went bankrupt, since otherwise their Hudson vehicular crossings would be overwhelmed.
Wasn't that at least partly to get the Hudson Terminal site so they could BUILD the WTC in their real-estate expansionist phase?
Not in the original study. The bankruptcy court wanted to sell the H&M's real estate holdings to allow the creditors to be paid, with any leftovers to run the railroad for a year or so to allow a phase-out of service. Since the railroad part had negative value to the bankruptcy court, the PA knew they could get it relatively cheaply.
The H&M had been in the process of renovating Hudson Terminal when they went broke, and some floors were quite modern (at the time).
Not in the original study.
Original study for what? Original plan for WTC?
The bankruptcy court wanted to sell the H&M's real estate holdings to allow the creditors to be paid, with any leftovers to run the railroad for a year or so to allow a phase-out of service. Since the railroad part had negative value to the bankruptcy court, the PA knew they could get it relatively cheaply.
But instead the PA bought the whole thing? Hudson Terminal to build the WTC *and* the RR to relieve stress on their bridges?
Original study for what?
"Study of the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad" by The Port of New York Authority, January 1961.
The Port Authority has long maintained that the H&M must be kept in operation. The railroad handles more than 31 million passengers annually; if it were to cease operations, trans-Hudson vehicular facilities would be incapable of handling the passenger load.
We believe that the present 60 per cent occupancy level of the Hudson Terminal Buildings can, after a substantial capital modernization program, be increased to 90 per cent by offering more modern and attractive office space than is now provided.
The budget numbers in the report are: $27,100,000 "for a complete rehabilitation of the railroad plant"; $23,700,000 "for new railroad rolling stock"; and "about $8,200,000 for rehabilitation of the Hudson Terminal buildings".
Income from Hudson Terminal rents in 1957 was $3,468,000. The report goes on to say We believe that with an accelerated modernization program in these buildings, a substantial net return on the operations of the buildings can be realized which would partially offset the anticipated losses from the railroad.
By the way, ridership in 1927 (just before the Holland Tunnel opened) was 113 million. It was down to 31 million at the time of the Port Authority report. Ridership in 1998 (the most recent year I can find figures for) was "nearly 65 million".
So it appears that the PA was planning on using the Hudson Terminal buildings as-is, until the World Trade Center went location-shopping all over lower Manhattan.
But it is a lot worse now. Not only are the riders more unpleasant, but the conductors are often a lot surlier as well, which is quite a change from before.
I have a number of specific complaints:
1) Off-peak service is totally inadequate - during the day, before 9/11, it was often hard to get into a train at Pavonia/Newport. Now, you can forget about it - you might not be able to board at Grove St. I've taken to riding to Hoboken and changing for the 33rd train there.
2) Riders are eating/drinking more in the cars. I can understand the occasional "I was in a rush and didn't eat anything all day and I have to eat something now or I'll pass out", but on a recent trip fully 1/3 of the car's passengers were eating or drinking, many of them with packed "tupperware" containers that they brought from home. This is unacceptable and they should be warned, then ticketed and ejected.
3) There is one conductor who apparently likes to take the head car out of service for trivial reasons, usually at JSQ. I've run into her doing this four times since 9/11, and I only ride about once a week! Maybe she just wants a quiet workplace (and I can understand that) but this is unacceptable. One day I had time to kill and sat and watched this train shuffle back and forth on multiple runs with the head car cut out. If there is a real problem, the train should be removed from service and a gap train substituted. If there isn't a problem, she needs a talking-to.
Subtalkers!
I just heard on Today NY on Channel 4 that the Daily News is reporting
that the Second Ave. subway has been approved!
It may actually be
true, as they reported the plan already has its critics saying that
a study that was done in the'70's showed it wasn't necessary and
things haven't changed that much.
What's the word, MTA insiders?
Subway grrl
Calm down, it's just another study that has been approved. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
There is a difference between approving something and paying for something and getting this something out of the courts. Of course you know people will take NYC and MTA to court to stop the building of it. The same type of people who don't want the F train to leave Lexington/53 St because a coffee shop there would have to change it's name. :-)
Would they sue if we stop picking up garbage in front of there house. Let say we don't have enough money for your (the thing the you file when creating a lawsuite).
a redundent study, just to piss away another 3\250-300 million according to NY Post, same study done in the 70s.
I know, that's their nature.
Peace,
ANDEE
Very redundant. Imagine, they need geniuses and mulit-million dollar research to find out that the ever-obvious transit situation on the east side of Manhattan has been getting steadily worse over the past 30 YEARS! And now with the Broadway-7th Av line handicapped for the next 3-5 years, all that traffic trying to get from The Bronx to Brooklyn and all intermediate points will tie up an already congested line.
Anyway, I was told by an transit planner that due to the politics behind construction on the Upper East Side, as well as NIBMY opposition, that line may never get construced. Instead, the MTA will likey resort to running the Lex on 90 second headways, which will be impossible to pull off without new signals, the installation of which will likey tie up the line even further (assuming that it isn't one of the projects killed because of the WTC cleanup and economic downturn).
with them installing grade timers every where except in my house, that will be funny. Also remember the govenment is not required to provide public transportaation to anyone.
How did they get things built years ago? Nobody was a NIMBY then? How can they complain about getting better service UNDERGROUND? I could understand a noisy elevated, but these people are nuts!
I think the attitude was, tough shit, we're building it.
Article in NY Post about it being approved and plan to be complete by 2012, But George W has renigned on some of the money promised
and guess where the money that goes to the studyers goes, back to head manigments pockets.
Not true. For the most part, the studies have been done. This is design work, and the opposition cited in the papers is coming from a recently retired NYCT engineer (the designing kind, not the train operating kind) who was head of the NYCT engineers' union for many years. He's got a vested interest (granted, he had more of one when he was an active employee) in saying what he's saying. By the way, he appears quite often at MTA Board and MTA-NYCT Committee meetings where design contracts are going to be discussed to complain that the work isn't being done in-house BY UNION MEMBERS, more of whom would have to be hired -- thus filling the union's coffers and increasing its power -- in order to do the work. As to his contention that the design work was done nearly 30 years ago, this is true...DeLeuw Cather did the design work ages ago -- at a different time, with different design standards (including no Americans with Disabilities Act) and, to some extent, different construction methods.
David
contention that the design work was done nearly 30 years ago, this is true...DeLeuw Cather did the design work ages ago -- at a different time, with different design standards (including no Americans with Disabilities Act) and, to some extent, different construction methods.
Curious as to what has changed (ADA excepted) in 30 years? Are new build methods likely to reduce Upper East Side disruption?
I have to say, though, that UES residents are mostly IN FAVOR of better subway service and will likely put up with construction. That may not stop lawsuits, and they'll bitch and moan (so unlike OTHER New Yorkers!), but in the end they're realists and understand that a Second Avenue subway makes their lives measurably better in the long run. Not to mention their apartments worth more.
Also article in Post, that rentals in Manhatten have decreased 10-20 pct in rents(Prices)
Also article in Post, that rentals in Manhatten have decreased 10-20 pct in rents(Prices)
Sure, not surprising. Same thing happening elsewhere, SF in particular.
Real estate in Manhattan and NYC is cyclical. I've been here 20 years as of last month, lived through 3 business cycles, and know that it goes up and it goes down. I was lucky enough to buy my apartment toward the bottom in 1990, by far the best investment I've ever made.
We'll likely see several MORE cycles before any of us pass through the turnstiles to board the Second Avenue subway. I just hope we'll still be around!
One of the best ways to see rents climb in a building is to make sure a subway station is built nearby. Study after study confirms this, and pricing in Atlanta, New York , Jersey City, and San Francisco have behaved accordingly.
In the early 1970s, "cut and cover" was the method used to build the existing sections of the Second Avenue Subway. Use of Tunnel Boring Machines (TBMs) was in its infancy. If I'm not mistaken, the 63rd Street (crosstown) Line was the first major (or perhaps the first of any kind) use of TBMs. Nowadays, TBMs are considered the way to go when dealing with rock. Once the machine is placed below ground, it does its work pretty much without disrupting things on the street level.
In addition, building codes and fire codes have changed.
David
In the early 1970s, "cut and cover" was the method used to build the existing sections of the Second Avenue Subway. Use of Tunnel Boring Machines (TBMs) was in its infancy. If I'm not mistaken, the 63rd Street (crosstown) Line was the first major (or perhaps the first of any kind) use of TBMs. Nowadays, TBMs are considered the way to go when dealing with rock. Once the machine is placed below ground, it does its work pretty much without disrupting things on the street level.
But can you tunnel-bore that close to the surface? Also I think it's not all rock that close to the surface. Remember, the 63rd Street tunnel is REALLY deep.
Curious to know more detail about alternative tunneling. Is a TBM practical? How deep are the existing seconds of 2nd Ave Subway tunnel?
Who said anything about tunneling close to the surface? The MESA study talked about deep tunneling for the most part, if memory serves. For more information, read the study -- it's no longer on the MTA website (it's been replaced by a more generic discussion of the Second Avenue Subway), but anyone who wants a copy should be able to get it from the MTA or NYC Transit.
David
HOW?
Try writing a letter or picking up the phone. The appropriate addresses and phone numbers are in any NYC phone book. For those who don't have one:
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
(212) 878-7000
NYC Transit Authority
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn NY 11201
(718) 243-3000
David
In the early 1970s, "cut and cover" was the method used to build the existing sections of the Second Avenue Subway. Use of Tunnel Boring Machines (TBMs) was in its infancy. If I'm not mistaken, the 63rd Street (crosstown) Line was the first major (or perhaps the first of any kind) use of TBMs.
But can you tunnel-bore that close to the surface? Also I think it's not all rock that close to the surface. Remember, the 63rd Street tunnel is REALLY deep.
Actually, the 63rd Street Tunnel was dug through Manhattan using cut-and-cover ... very deep cut-and-cover. There were major disruptions to the area and big headaches for everyone. Enough people probably remember the whole fiasco that any effort to use cut-and-cover on Second Avenue would meet a lot of opposition. As a result, any construction on Second Avenue almost surely will be done using TBM's even if cut-and-cover would be most cost-effective.
Remember pipes and wires and cables? I don't like washington DC's system that you need to take elevators to the subways and also having to take elevaators to get to the platforms on the archer ave extension. won't it cost money to run elevators, and annoy people? Invest the money into open cut. In my opinion boaring in better but you can't use it where there is a lot of utillities underground?
I'm looking forward to taking my great-grandchildren for a ride on opening day.
I have a big problem with the state of transit planning and development today. Twenty-years-or-more-in-the-future plans are more stupid than prudent, because they jeapordize almost any public interest in infrastructure projects. How can any taxpayer be interested in a project that won't be completed until they're (hypothetically) retired and relocated to some pastoral setting? To take it way out of proportion, I'd say these feasibility studies are undertaken primarily to sow the seeds of disinterest and ensure maintenance of the status quo (which is, fortunately, for New York, a cut above that of most other American cities, trainwise) for generations to come.
I say, fast-track the project. Employ the recently and not-so-recently unemployed in its execution. Public works, after all, ought to be a means to renew economic vitality.
"Employ the recently and not-so-recently unemployed in its execution."
Just as the army no longer wants a draft because war is fought differently nowadays and doesn't involve using untold thousands of basicly-trained infantry, I'm pretty sure that construction is no longer done by mass squads of untrained men using mostly hand tools and muscle as with the original IRT.
1) People who punched data into a computer yesterday cannot become skilled construction workers tomorrow -- assuming they would even want to.
2) There aren't that many unemployed. This isn't the Great Depression, or even the recession circa 1982.
3) Why would a contractor on the subway want to go back to old manual construction techniques when the cost of worker safety and compensation for injuries is drastically increased by using mass numbers of workmen, even considering the lower wages that come with unskilled workers?
Never mind that -- New York is a union town and the construction trades would howl at about 150 decibles if a plan like that was implemented, and would likely be supported by mny other unions in protest.
That's why nothing ever gets built anymore, and when it does it costs a fortune. Think of how much this LITTLE piece of the 63rd St Connection is costing compared to any of the subway lines years ago, even if you adjust the figure for inflation!
Contractor fraud. Work should be done in-house by MTA workers.
Some work IS done by NYCT's in-house forces. However, it would not be prudent for all work to be done that way, because NYCT would have to have thousands more employees than it has now and would have to pay them benefits and pay into their pension funds.
David
Before I go to Work I hvae to say
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOO
AND TO ADD TO THAT......WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!
A $200 million dollar engineering contract was announced. Construction bids would be let out in 2004.
This is good news indeed.
Thank God...
Personally, i wold love to see more expansion of the system. The reason is two fold, to make our city more accessible by rail - either heavy rail subway or light rail. Second this is going to provide J-O-B-S!!!!! In this not so stable economy, this is the best time to get a project like this going - Of course it will take 15 years and 12 Billion dollors..
mike
I arrived in NYC in the early 60s and traveled between Sunnyside & City Hall. By 1966 I was working at JFK. I picked up some maps to help me find my way, some of which I marked up because, even then, I wanted to understand where all those tracks went. One was a '64 World's Fair version. Worthless to anyone but me now :-( But it does serve very well to remind me what lines I tryed, e.g. I took a Q train from Jay to Metropolitian one evening after school at Brooklyn Poly Tech.
Anyhow, I have one with the old TA blue & red logo but it doesn't have a date on it. Some of the lines listed are: TT; 8; NX; MJ; & EE.
I suspect it's from the sixties, but can anyone fine tune the date for me ? Thanking you in advance.
Mr rt__:^)
That would be the 1968 map.
Wouldn't it be a little before '68? As the MTA was formed in 68 and the maps would have the M in the circle, known as tha "meatball" on it.
Peace,
ANDEE
No because here is the 1967 map: (no NX, TT etc..)
Then I guess they didn't start putting the "meatball" on the maps until later.
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks like they did it sometime between 1985 and 1990:
19851990
Right, these later maps have the dates on them somewhere, e.g. I have a 1979 that looks similar to the two in your reply.
That 1964 that I mentioned in my post was one of the last without route numbers/letters. It has a grey vs. white background & a map of the World's Fair on the reverse side with drawings of those Red Birds when they were in lovely Blue & White !
Mr rt__:^)
I just received a copy of that map and the BMT Worlds Fair map from 1939 (both in mint condition) from my memorabelia benifactor.
how do i get in the good graces of your memorabilia benefactor? also, did he/she indicate what the year was?
thanks
I never reveal my sources but he's given me some really nice stuff over the last year.
I do remember that the TA Transit Museum had made about 1000 reproductions of the '39 BMT WF map back in 1980. I've noticed quite a few of them on ebay trying to pass themselves across as the real thing.
I think the ERA has also reprinted that 1939 map once or twice..I bought mine at the Hoboken Festival from them once....
how does one tell the reprint from the real thing?
thanks
"how does one tell the reprint from the real thing?"
The way i just did. Mine has a date of 4-39 at the bottom of the backside. However, if you look to the right,it says "reprinted 1976. Well, it'll look good on my trainroom wall and the 1964 map was printed in 1964.
I believe the reprints are somewhat collectible as only 1000 were printed. I own an original and a reprint.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was nicely done though. I have one of the reprints.
Double check that 1939 WF map. There were reprints. I have one that was done in 1979.
Look in the border around the map.
That 1964 that I mentioned in my post was one of the last without route numbers/letters. It has a grey vs. white background & a map of the World's Fair on the reverse side with drawings of those Red Birds when they were in lovely Blue & White !
Mr rt__:^)
There were two editions of subway map for the World's Fair. The first one issued in 1964 only had a map on one side,the reverse had a map of the fair but no service information.
The 1965 map had a map on the front and a service guide on the reverse showing BMT route letters for the suothern division only,ie
Q,QB,QT,N,T,TT,RR. Shuttles and eastern division routes had only names.
The first 1967 map was pre-Chrystie Street and had an R-38 on the front. The service guide listed IRT Route numbers for the first time.
The second 1967 map was the famous multi-colored Chrystie Street editon which had a large TA logo on the front.
The next map was issued was in July 1968 and was the first one issued under the MTA. It had a large M on the front on the words NYCTA.
Larry,RedbirdR33
My World's Fair map is the '64 version.
My "TA" map must be the '67, because it is multi-colored & does show
the Chrystie Street trackage in use.
Thanks for the input Larry, you've made my reference tool even more informative. It would appear that I obtained then after I started working at JFK. That must be why it's in better shape then the others I have.
Mr rt__:^)
I acquired a mint 1964 WF map with a featured R-36 from a colleague at work. She's from Long Island originally and had gone back to her father's funeral, and found the map among some stuff. It turns out her father worked at Grummann in Bethpage at the same time my uncle did. They may have known each other if they didn't actually work together. I'll never know for sure; my uncle died before I had a chance to ask him.
Wasn't around for it, so I'm curious about the 1985 "Brighton line diversion" thing ... were they sending trains to Jersey? Playing "fool the motorman" by hanging canvas with false tunnel entrances? Wha' happened back then?
In 1985 they were replacing all 4 Brighton tracks 2 at a time. Trains were running skip stop and temporary platforms were set up so people could board trains on the express tracks.
The title on the map suggests that the Brighton trains were going somewhere else entirely. Must have been a mess. Thanks for the skinny!
The one pictured in the message to which this is a direct respose is from earlier in 1967 - sometime in the spring, probably. The only map with the TA logo and individual route designations was the November 1967 "Chrystie St." map. The next map, which became effective July 1, 1968, had the MTA "M" logo (the MTA took over the TA on March 1, 1968).
That's one map I don't have. I do have the immediate post-Chrystie St. map, all written up and discontinued routes crossed out.
BTW, this one is Đ1968 - 1969 revision:
interestingly, i have the same map with 1968 - 1969 revision, and also have the same map with just 1968.
i haven't had a chance to research it, but i wonder if the map shown in the first of thread might be before the 1964 world's fair one.
My World's Fair map has 1964 printed on it. It also has the TA logo, but not as boldly as the 67 map.
Mr rt__:^)
It came out in the early part of 1968. Later in the year it was revised with the M logo.
Thanks to all, I'll pencil in early '68.
It now makes a good reference tool when you guys & gails talk about the NX, QB, QJ, RJ, etc.
Also I have a wall mounted 1947 that shows the Lex. & Fulton els in Brooklyn, plus 2nd Ave all the way from South Ferry to the Bronx. For a Swamp Yankee from CT it helps since I never made it to the Polo Grounds or Ebbets Field (but I was aboard one of the trolleys that went in front of it last Sunday ... she has a 027 guage train set in it now).
Mr rt__:^)
If the map has the MJ route for the Myrtle Av. el, then it is a 1968 map. If not, then it is at least a 1969.
The first map issued with the MTA's 'M' logo on the front carried the MJ route, which also debuted on the R-40M/R-42 trains introduced in 1968/69. I don't think the MTA back then was as precise in trying to release new maps immediately after route changes, and the MJ remained until the 1970 map came out.
the MJ remained until the 1970 map came out.
This Đ1968 - 1969 revision does NOT have the MJ on it.
The MJ continued running until late 1969 -- why wouldn't the 1969 map have the MJ (with the purple circle) on it?
why wouldn't the 1969 map have the MJ (with the purple circle) on it?
uh, because the MJ was discontinued on October 3rd, 1969 and they revised the map to reflect that?
So the late 1969 map doesn't have it -- see my earlier post when I said I wasn't sure if the MTA at that time did map revisions as quickly as they do now. Obviously, if that is a 1969 map, they did do a quick revision, but it's still not a 1969 map for any month between January and September, which takes up three-quarters of the year. The original MTA release map (that replaced the TA's 1967 "A different line for every rider" map) would be the one that applied until 10/13/69.
I've never seen a 1969 map with the MJ on it. I am guessing that the TA published 1968 maps well into 1969 and up until the MJ elimination.
J Lee
Regarding the MJ, the first Rapid Transit Guide- M New York City Transit Authority was issued for the service changes of July 1,1968 and had the MJ on it. The second guide was issued in late October 1969 and reflected the closure of the Myrtle Avenue El below Broadway.
It did have the M Myrtle Av-Broad St Line (Light Blue) and the SS Myrtle Av Shuttle (Dark Green).
Larry,RedbirdR33
So the map that was used for most of 1969 was actually the 1968-release map, and the 1969-release map was only in use for the final 2 1/2 months of the year (and after) when the Myrtle el shut down.
The years alone are a little confusing without the specific issue months being attatched, but it's nothing compared to the confusion there's going to be 30 years from now among people talking about the 2001 subway map -- four different ones in use in September alone, two in October, two in December and one other at the start of the year that was held over from 2000. Ought to make for a lot of fun posts on the meassage board (and will really keep Michael Adler busy...)
So the map that was used for most of 1969 was actually the 1968-release map, and the 1969-release map was only in use for the final 2 1/2 months of the year (and after) when the Myrtle el shut down.
Lee: The map issued in 1969 lasted until 1972 when it was replaced by that infamous computer designed map. That one came in two versions at first, one with a mid town blow up on the reverse and a second with strip maps on the reverse.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The infamous British-based "spot the mistakes" MTA map. Looked great on T-shirts, but was awful in terms of actually locating many stops anywhere near where they actaully were in real life (B'way and 50th on the 1 being my personal favorite screw-up, edging out the Bowling Green-South Ferry distance in lower Manhattan).
That '1947' map sounds more like 1940 at least..the Fulton/Lex els in Brooklyn closed with unification in 1940.....Is the 2nd ave el still going over the Queensboro bridge onto the Flushing/Corona line? This must be a Hagstrom map you have....
Lou,
You do know don't you that the Fulton-Lex and the Lex operated until Oct 13th, 1950. I was lucky enough to ride the last train. I think you are thinking of the Fulton St line when you say 1940.
Well the 2nd Avenue line closed down north of 59th in 1940 and the rest in 1942.
Right it's a Hagstrom map & I found Aug. '47 on it somewhere.
Regarding the 2nd Ave/Queensboro Bridge service, it's gone from the map, BUT joint BMT/IRT service in Queens is noted. AND one other point, Queens-Nassau Transit Lines was still providing trolley service over that bridge (until '57), but it isn't listed. That's strange becaues the Canarsie trolley IS listed.
Mr rt__:^)
This sounds like it's from late 1967-early 1968. That's about the interval that the NX lasted.
The map shows: AA, CC, EE, GG, HH, JJ, MJ, NX, QB, QJ, RJ, RR, TT, 8 and 5 each SS incl. Culver Shuttle.
Thanks to you all it will see the light of day much more frequently, and be opened very carefully.
Mr rt__:^)
Last night on the eastbound Brooklyn-Rockaway LIRR line, the train pulled into Valley Stream station, but stopped before the last two cars had platformed. I don't know whether this was because of a stop signal or a problem with the train, as no announcement was made.
Nevertheless, the conductor blandly announced "Valley Stream" and OPENED THE DOORS on the "platform" side. Needless to say, there were a lot of surprised and frightened people who, intending to get off at Valley, were now facing a steep drop to the tracks. Since the train was rather crowded, there were more than a few riders who had been leaning against the doors who were now facing the precipice.
The engineer started yelling "close 'em up! close 'em up! We're not there yet!" the doors remained open for a few minutes before they finally closed and the train proceeded fully into the station.
No one fell out but some tired commuters who weren't paying full attention could easily have either fallen out or stepped out.
How could the conductor have opened the doors without first noticing that the back two cars hadn't platformed??? Scary.
I don't know LIRR rules but I don't think there are conductor boards or any requirement that the person opening the doors be in the same position at each station.
When they leave the terminal you always hear the crew telling the Engineer how many cars and how many are open. They do that on MNRR as well.
Isn't highly paid union labor just terrific???
What does union labor have to do with this problem? You mean non-union employees never make mistakes?
You have a stinky choice forget about it or report it.
People keep posting messages about how the doors keep opening off platform and how dangerous it is. Howeverm can anyone point to a case where anyone has actually stepped off the train and fallen down to the track bed? Maybe we should just figure that commuters have half a brain and not treat this event like it was the end of the world.
In spite of what you believe. Incompetent crews that open doors on cars that have not platformed IS a big deal. It could very easily have been a disaster. The crew was LUCKY that nothing serious happened. If I had been on that train I would have reported them and I advise the original poster of this to do the same.
Peace,
ANDEE
In spite of what you believe. Incompetent crews that open doors on cars that have not platformed IS a big deal. It could very easily have been a disaster. The crew was LUCKY that nothing serious happened. If I had been on that train I would have reported them and I advise the original poster of this to do the same. If anything did happen I shuuder to think of all the resultant litigation that would cripple the given railroad for many years.
Peace,
ANDEE
People keep posting messages about how the doors keep opening off platform and how dangerous it is. Howeverm can anyone point to a case where anyone has actually stepped off the train and fallen down to the track bed? Maybe we should just figure that commuters have half a brain and not treat this event like it was the end of the world.
Either:
(1) you are trolling; or
(2) you have an extremely low I.Q. score.
There is no other possible explanation.
Do you have a problem w/ people being responsible for their own actions? Do you support people driving in front of trains and then sueing? I have eyes and a brain and I USE them so that I don't go stepping off into some black void. I guess we should just wrap the RoW in foam rubber. Make everything safe.
I agree with you Mike. Did anyone of you ever see someone falling onto the platform when the door opened? So why would somebody fall if the platform wasn't there?
It wasn't too long ago (about 20+ yrs) on the LIRR diesel trains people rode in the vestibles with the doors wide open. And I don't remember anyone ever falling off. I deliberately rode that way but I always held on tight. As far as posters saying they would report the crew I would never do anything like that to jeopardize someone's job and his ability to feed his family. Especially if it was his first time.
Thank you for your support. It's this National Trend of "blame someone else" that has basically made railfanning (and other things) a lot less fun. Yes, you should avoid opening the doors in bad locations. No, someone should not be fired because of it. Commuters seem to have brains, I've never heard of anyone falling out. Even if they did they would only have themselves to blame. There's a reason they say always maintain 3 points of contact.
Amen. Everyone need good work and MTA can render the mess down to lowest guy on the Totem Pole or be the best employer. Errors happen...it's part of life...and automated system fail (hence the 'don't lean on the doors' decals of R142s.)
"As far as posters saying they would report the crew I would never do anything like that to jeopardize someone's job and his ability to feed his family. Especially if it was his first time."
Yes, but I'm quite sure you've given out plenty of tickets for people running a stop sign - late at night - even if there was no other traffic - even if no accident resulted - even if it was their first time. How many of them had their insurance go up to a point where they couldn't afford it? How many of them were ultimately suspended? I'm quite sure you do not feel guilty and rightly so. You were doing your job. If a conductor can't or won't give full attention to his job, it's not up to the customer to decide to forgive his or her actions. It's up to the railroad. It's up to them to determine whether it was his or her first time. Our obligation as customers is to let management know when incidents occur. No one got hurt last time but what about the next?
So basically someone has to get hurt before the conductor can be held responsible.
I don't see the conductor there pushing people out the open door. Riders are warned not to lean against the doors. They do so at their own risk.
You've never been on a crowded train?
Yes I have, both commuter rail and subway and I do not believe there is a problem. Have you ever see a subway train where people pop out onto the platform uncontrolably when the doors open? Absent some sort of internal pressure (a phenomina that I have never witnessed) falling out of a train is a consiquence of personal decisions.
No, I guess you never have been on a crowded train.
Hint: I don't mean a train with only middle seats left. I mean a train that's crowded enough that passengers are pressed against the walls and (get this) doors. It happens every day here in New York.
I have been on many crowded trains. If things were as you claimed people would pop out whenever the doors opened at a station stop. They don't so riders can clearly prevent themselves from toppling out even in crowded conditions.
Like David said, obviously you've never been on a truly crowded train. I HAVE seen people forced out onto the platform because of the sheer mass of humanity pressed against them from inside the train - and I'm not even a regular rider.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In Boston after Red Sox games it takes many trains to go by before you can even fit on one very crowded train.
Riders near the doors can prepare for stops by holding on tightly if they don't want to fall out. Otherwise, there's no reason for them to hold on at all. If the door opens between stations, even those passengers who would have held on tightly have no idea the doors are about to open until it's too late.
Mike, spend some time riding the IRT lines of your choice during the afternoon rush hour before telling us what a crowded train is. You obviously have yet to experience one.
Wasn't this about the LAIR?
I think it was about the LIRR originally.
Mr. Brotzman, you lose all credibility when you refer to the Long Island RR as the "LIAR" It is the LIRR -- GET IT
he called it the "LAIR" though "LIAR" might be better.
Mr. Brotzman already lost his credability. He's most likely the LEADER in killfiles, due to his thoughtless style of posting. For somebody who is still in college, he hasn't learned too much yet.
You mean I just refuse to go along with the party line. I stand up for what I believe in and eagerly seek out public debate to hopefully get people thinking about an issue. When I am proved wrong I admit it. It's happened several times. That dosen't mean it wasn't worth asking the question. My problem is that the message board system really dosen't work well for arguing, and my poits usually get thrown all out of wack as the threads evolve.
In case we all forgot I started with LIRR commuters are smart enough not to fall out of a train, if they do it is their own damn fault, doors opening off platform are not that big a deal and it is certainly not worth getting someone fired over it.
Simple, yet look how it turned into a debate regarding exploding subway cars at rush hour. ::rolls eyes::
This particular case occurred on the LIRR. You seemed to be arguing that there's never anything wrong with the train doors opening in the wrong place.
Yes. Watch a northbound Lex Local arriving at 68 St during rush hour. The 'poor' people going home to 86 St stand in front of the doors while the 'stupid' students attempt to get out. Result: when the doors open, people have been known to pop out of the train against their will. Having occasionally been the force behind this uncontrolled popping, I relate this from first hand experience (all name calling from first hand experience).
This is pretty much like saying "what does it matter if the elevator doors open between floors or if the elevator's moving - people should look before they get off it". It's still malfunctioning, and something needs to be fixed. Of course, typical regulation in the US is knee-jerk, not based off of a system philiosphy, so nothing gets fixed until after a few deaths. Witness the PRR/LIRR's refusal to adopt ASC even though parts of the system were cab signaled in the teens.
If the doors are opening when the train's not spotted right, a few things can be wrong:
The engineer is stopping at the wrong spot because:
Brake failure
Wheel slide
Poor visability
Low IQ
Missing/mispositioned stop marker
Drunk
The conductor is opening the doors at the wrong time because:
Not looking
Low IQ
Drunk
Distracted
Poor door control design
A mechanical malfunction
An electric malfunction
The NYCTA seems to have reduced this problem by having the conductor point at the marker board before opening the doors. Pointing is a physical motion that reinforces the 'look before open' concept by (on paper) causeing the conductor to point, therfore actively look for the board.
If taken seriously by the crew, this becomes a remakeably reliable system. I wouldn't be surprised if the rate of misopenings on the subway are lower than surrounding commuter lines. It the purpose behind pointing pointed out (no pun:) durring training?
The nature of the LIRR's operations, and of most railroads, allows for many points where a single failure in the system can lead to an accident. The overriding attitude at railroads w.r.t. safety seems to be one of human discipline, rather than redundant safeguards. This is a poor strategy because humans screw up.
I don't think the pointing has made much of a difference.
It has become just another robotic motion, like putting the key
into the MDC and lowering the cab window. I've seen many a c/r
come into the station already pointing, train still in motion,
their eyes looking at something else.
If the pointing system is so reliable why are door enablers being installed??
I've seen C/R point at the board and wouldn't even be looking out of the cab. Queens Plaza after a nice long experss run, sitting reading a book, I saw a C/R still reading and pointing as he stood up, stoped pointing, folded his page and put the key in the MDC.
The incident was potentially serious. If you felt strongly about it, YOU should have reported it. Everyone else was probably figuring that someone else was going to do it.
Coincidentally, the Conductor on my train this AM was talking about a conductor or a crew having been removed from service. I didn't pay much attention to the conversation but it might be related???
Perhaps if the MTA didn't have a "deaf" website, unlike most major transit authorties, incidents such as this would be reported more often, as they should be. Why does the MTA insist on keeping their website "deaf"? Sends a bad message to the public IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't want to have to deal with cranks, gadflies, and foamers.
'I.T.' specialist was a title that didn't exist in industry a few years ago. Now any 'crank, gadfly and foamer' with access to a computer can literaly 'type away' without buying stamps. Look at us!!! One thing for sure: with internet and email, word goes out fast.......MTA doesn't need one person posting 'LIRR is dangerous cuz they open the doors too soon.' TrainDude is correct...he knows what happens in these situations...it's probably 'back to school.' Peter
Boston's MBTA does hear. And they listen too! Here's a link to their "Write to the top" program. I have written, and I have received prompt, courteous replies. And in many cases, action too.
Boston is quite a different city from NYC.
"Write to the top Program"
Holy Crabcakes!! Even the MBTA wording
is EASIER to understand.... neat link, Todd.
It seems that there was another incident on the LIRR that resulted in the suspension of an entire train crew. The crew of an unidentified train was suspended for stopping at a stop signal and sitting there for at least 10 minutes without calling and questioning the signal. The suspension was confirmed by a LIRR C/R friend of mine. I don't know if it was this incident that the C/R on my AM train was referring to or the Valley Stream incident.
A few comments about this one. Are you sure it was the WHOLE crew that got suspended? A crew is usually comprised of a Conductor, a Brakeman, and an Engineer. And on a busy train, there may be Ticket Collectors as well. First of all, why should the BRAKEMAN or a TICKET COLLECTOR be involved with anything regarding a stop signal? The brakeman is usually at the REAR of the train, his responsibility is to operate the doors for the whole train, maintain the safety of the rear section of the train, and collect fares. The ticket collector is usually somewhere in the middle of the train, and their responsibility is to maintain the safety of whatever section of the train he/she is working and collect fares. The conductor's responsibilty is the WHOLE TRAIN, however he/she is usually situated in the front, maintaining the safety there and collecting fares. The engineer's responsibility is to run the train in a safe and timely fashion. If there is any type of dealy or disruption, the conductor usually corresponds with the engineer either face to face or via radio/intercom and then relays appropriate info to the passengers and the rest of the crew.
That being said, why should ANYBODY on a train be suspended for stopping at a stop signal and not calling and questioning the signal? The engineer doesn't call the dispatcher to "thank him/her" when the signal is CLEAR, why should he/she call when it's a STOP signal? If there is no good reason for that stop signal, then it's the DISPATCHER who should be questioned and/or disciplined, not the "crew" of the train. The train's location is clearly marked on the dispatcher's board, why should the engineer have to WAKE UP A SLEEPING DISPATCHER?
The reason I'm familiar with this is because I work for NJ Transit, this has happened there as well, however the APPROPRIATE person was disciplined, meaning the DISPATCHER, not the crew of the train.
In this case, I was only reporting what was reported to me. However, you are correct. I should have gotten clarification about the information.
Isn't there a TA rule (I know this was LIRR) that requires you to call Command when you are sitting for any legenth of time at a STOP signal???
Sounds like good practice to keep from getting rear ended in case there is a signal malfunction.
Who is responsible for this under LIRR rules, the engineer
or the conductor? I've never noticed conductor's boards or
other indications that the train is properly platformed.
Under rairoad rules, it is the conductor who is in charge of passenger safety and scheduling. LIRR is railroad and if he opened the doors without looking.........Subways like the R142s I work on have an interlock button that requires the T/O to check before he enables the conductors ability to open doors. Of course we are dealing with human beings and human failings. Hence, TrainDudes favorite: The Darwin Awards. Peter
quick question:
that interlock system you mention, is that similar to the door enablers that used to (or still do, I have no idea) exist? It was mentioned here a few weeks ago, and I got the impression that those were being phased out, not in.
No, the door enablers are being phased in. (On the subway, at least.)
M-1s and M-3s have a "Door Hold" button. If the engineer stops his train either long or short he can hold the doors closed until the crew can toggle off the cars that are not platformed. As to responsibility, based on what i heard today it would seem te crew all swings together from the same rope.
That's pretty much SOP on ANY railroad, NYCT included. Whoever's NEAR the wreck swings from the tree. I've seen signal maintainers get nailed for something that happened on a passing train because they just happened to be there when something happened. I've heard the same from Amtrak guys. Someone screws up, everybody gets some time to reflect and navel gaze ...
I remember seeing the door DIS-abler feature on those cars. So
it is really mostly the engineer's fault in that situation if
he or she misses the stop marker and also fails to hold the doors.
After the standing brake test, the crew tells the engineer how many cars are in service "3 behind 5" or something like that. Unless all those buzzer signals when they are doing the test is actualy how many cars are in service bzzz bzz bzz >G<.
You know, I'm kind of curious about that myself. We all know what happens when an NYCT subway conductor opens the doors on the wrong side or with part of the train out of the station. But what happens to a LIRR or MNRR train conductor who does the same? How are they disciplined, if indeed they are?
It's amazing someone didn't fall out, because if they did then the LIRR would have a big lawsuit on their hands.
About 10 years ago (it's gotta be more because it was a red R27), Anyway about 15 years ago I was on a M train at Forest Avenue, and a Manhattan bound train opened the doors before the train was fully in the station right over a gaping elevated structure! Even as a teenager, I thought that was pretty bad. Luckily no one was hurt! The conductor did close them quickly. I don't know why we stopped about two cars out of the station, but we did for some reason.
Firstly I would call the LIRR in Jamaica and complain to the person answering the phone, then ask to speak to a supervisor and then that person's supervisor.
Secondly I would sent a letter of complaint to the President of the LIRR, with a copy to the LI Commuters Council (which has been turned into enuch by Pataki). I would mark the letter and envelope "PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL" and mail it via CERTIFIED MAIL with the RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED.
Thirdly I would sent copies of the letter to my State Senator and State Assemblyman/woman and ask them to followup.
Fourthly I would send copies to all the large newspapers (Newsday, Daily News, Post)as well as the local papers (The Long Islander, Northport Observer, Smithtown News, etc.)
Its a lot of work but by bringing it to so many people's attention it cannot be swept under the rug.
Luckily nobody fell out and got hurt, but I bet if you were leaning out of the door your blood pressure jumped off the scale and your underwear changed color in a hurry.
Also luckily for the crew no one leaning against the door had a heart condition or the startlement of the opening could have caused a large shock that could have killed them.
It sounds like the engineer is at fault for not alerting the crew that he is fully in the station since the LIRR doesn't have boards like the subways. In any event.............................
REPORT THESE PEOPLE FOR THE FUTURE SAFETY OF ALL OF US !!!!!!!
>>>Luckily nobody fell out and got hurt, but I bet if you were leaning out of the door your blood pressure jumped off the scale and your underwear changed color in a hurry.<<<
This exact thing happened to me some years ago on an uptown 4 train, stopped, with the first 2 cars out of the Station (149th-Grand Concourse). To make a log story short: The train had stopped after leaving the station normally because some clown jumped on between cars as the train was leaving the station. We had been sitting stopped long enough for supervision to show up, there was alot there already anyway due to some midday GO. I was standing in the first car by one of the doors and all the sudden they opened! Let me tell you it does scare the shit out you! Luckily nothing happened. The T/O yells over the PA "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING YOU'RE OFF THE BOARD!".
Then they closed down. The beauty of this story is that no letters had to written as all that aforementioned supervision was there. Unfortunately the clown that started the whole chain of events was not hurt. A memorible experience to say the least.
Peace,
ANDEE
I always had this idea that there's some kind of interlocking that prevents the T/O from taking off before the doors are closed and prevents the C/R from opening the doors before the T/O is done stopping the train or whatever. Does anyone have details on how this works? It may sound like a stupid question and I'm probably confusing myself and possibly others. I know the key on the MDC has to be in a certain spot before the T/O gets the indication but how does the C/R know it's okay to open the doors. I know how the enabler works, where the T/O has to puch for the side of the train that the platform is on, which is a good thing. But how does it work on other trainsets without the enabler.
Personal note I was on a M or a J train that stopped on the inside track at Chambers and the C/R opened the doors on the side with the abandoned platform. There was lots of confusion and the T/O was complaining about it on the PA.
Shawn.
Funny you should ask that question. When I visited NY over the Columbus Day weekend, I rode the #2 to 180th Street and then the 5 to Dyre Avenue (after a very long wait.) I stayed on the train on the return as far as 86th Street to catch the M86 bus.
The train dispatcher held us at 125th street because we were 5 minutes early. The T/O opened his door. I asked him the question you posited.
The C/R can open the doors on red birds when the train stops. The train can't move with the doors open. When they close and the conductor turns his key, a red light illuminates in the cab telling the T/O that the doors are closed.
Michael
to michael. Actually all subway cars have a door bypass. Trains can move with the doors open and i have seen a 7 line Redbird moving with the doors open in corona yard. when the bypass is off, the Motorman cannot move the train with the doors open. when he loses indication all power is in doors, and not in motors. then Conductor closes doors. when he sees the 2 red lights indicating doors are closed and locked, he removes his key by turning it. once the key comes out, Motorman recieves indication and leaves. NOTE: I DO NOT KNOW IF THE CONDUCTOR CAN OPEN THE DOORS WHILE THE TRAIN IS MOVING, BUT HE CAN TAKE INIDCATION FROM THE MOTORMAN ON A MOVING TRAIN. this has happened on a M-1 on a LIRR and on a 7 line Redbird. the Motorman pulled off, then he lost inidication, and he pulled a full service and released the deadman. this gives the Train ULTIMATE stopping power. so he stopped and Conductor reopened doors
The C/R can take indication and pop the doors, if the T/O is not watching and the train is no longer accelerating he might not feel the loss of power.
This is the idea behind the door enabler.
Someone can also key open a door which takes away power and indication but will not put a train into emergency.
There are more sublte and evil things a vandal can do.
NJT sometimes has this happen at short, high-level platform stations. No big deal, since with low platform sections they leave the doors open. And at Kingsland often the first (w/b) or last (e/b) cars stop in the tunnel under Ridge Road. But then again, everyone knows RR passengers have brains.
Interesting Associated Press story today about conservative activist Paul Weyrich's idea for replacing Amtrak. Despite his (very) conservative credentials, he has shown support in the past for passenger rail, and actually has a plan of his own on what to do to replace the current system -- it may not work, but it is something to think about.
WASHINGTON (AP) - Paul Weyrich, a leader of the religious right who coined the phrase "moral majority," is leading a far different movement now. He's spearheading the effort to kill Amtrak, believing the best way to save passenger rail service is to do away with the national railway.
Weyrich was the architect of a recent finding that Amtrak will fail to achieve financial self-sufficiency by a Dec. 2, 2002, deadline set by Congress. The Amtrak Reform Council's decision forces Amtrak to draft a liquidation plan, although only Congress can put it out of business.
The council, set up by Congress to oversee Amtrak, also will design a "restructured" rail passenger system for consideration by Congress. Weyrich is helping to write that plan, due in February.
Weyrich might strike rail advocates as an unlikely participant in an effort to revive national train travel. A sharp-tongued critic of much that happens in Washington, Weyrich has written of "rat havens in the Capitol" where federal dollars are doled out.
But he also has co-written three reports on why conservatives should support mass transit and is a founding member of the National Association of Railroad Passengers.
"He is a complete right-wing ideologue except on one issue - passenger rail and transit," said Milwaukee Mayor John Norquist, a Democratic appointee to the council.
Though Norquist and others believe Amtrak should survive in some form, Weyrich is determined to dismantle the railway and build a new entity from scratch.
"Amtrak is a fatally flawed institution that, in my opinion, is broken beyond repair," he said, painting it as bloated, unresponsive to outside advice and insufficiently focused on serving passengers.
Amtrak has consumed more than $24 billion in subsidies since its inception in 1971, including $521 million this year.
Weyrich envisions states taking the lead in implementing profitable high-speed train service in designated areas. He would abolish Amtrak and create a new national corporation to run "connector" trains linking the areas. Those trains would be subsidized by the federal government, but a private company would make money operating their sleeping cars.
"Some places would lose service, some would gain it. That's just the way it goes," Weyrich said.
Ross Capon, executive director of the railroad passengers' group, said he shares some of Weyrich's goals but doubts Congress would be willing to fund new long-distance connector lines if the current network of long-haul routes were abandoned.
Weyrich, 59, became interested in rail as a reporter in Milwaukee, when he wrote a series of articles on how American cities were reevaluating the importance of trains.
He moved to Washington in 1967 as press secretary to Sen. Gordon Allott, R-Colo. Six years later Weyrich founded the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. The next year he established the Free Congress Foundation, a conservative redoubt in what it calls the "culture war." He remains president of Free Congress.
At a 1979 gathering of religious leaders, Weyrich talked of a "moral majority" in the country. The name stuck. Over the next decade, the group led by the Rev. Jerry Falwell energized a movement that helped elect three Republican presidents.
Weyrich served on Amtrak's board of directors from 1987 to 1993, clashing with upper management, including then-President W. Graham Claytor.
"It was a cultural problem," Weyrich recalled. "They were never open to any new idea, they never wanted to do any innovation, they were not willing to allow the market to impact their thinking."
Claytor died in 1994. Dennis Sullivan, who served under him as Amtrak's chief operating officer, said Claytor "was a brilliant manager" whose biggest obstacle was a lack of funding, not a lack of innovative thinking.
Congress created the reform council as part of a 1997 law that gave Amtrak five years to cover its costs without government help. Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., chose Weyrich as one of his three appointees.
While Amtrak is far from perfect, this is a scheme to throw out the baby with the bath water. Congress is handing out tens of billions to the airlines, no strings attached, and Amtrak is supposed to be totally self-sufficient? Every progressive nation has government subsidized rail passenger service; the U.S. should be no exception.
"... is a fatally flawed institution that, in my opinion, is broken beyond repair," he said, painting it as bloated, unresponsive to outside advice and insufficiently focused on serving passengers."
Gee, sounds like he's talking about the MTA vs Amtrak ?
Mr rt__:^)
Amtrak has consumed more than $24 billion in subsidies since its inception in 1971, including $521 million this year.
Shows you what type of hypocricy this is. Didn't our right-wing congress just had a $50 billion check to the airline industry, no questions asked? Compared to that, $24 billion over 20 years is pocket change.
I'll support eliminating all rail subsidies as soon as Congress also eliminates every subsidy to the airline and highway industries.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Remember AMR(American) is a Texas Company and so Is Continental, both CEOs friendly withjh George H and George W
But AMR just had 3 plane crashes, whereas they probably budget for just 1, and have TWA's debt load. I predict they will go down with United, which itself was a foregone conclusion even before 9/11.
I don't think Shrub, uh Bush, can head that off.
Airlines don't "budget" for crashes. That is the task of insurance company actuaries.
United "going down" is not a foreground conclusion.
Of the major airlines, the two most mentioned as being in a precarious position are America West and USAirways.
Yikes, I meant "foregone". And yes, I did preview the message.
I wouldn't put it past them budgeting mainetenance, and putting a $ value on human life.
Wasn't there a case back in the 70's where one of the Big Three automakers (I think it was Ford) decided that instead of recalling a specific car model due to a potential fire hazard, it would be more "cost-effective" to settle potential lawsuits from a relatively small number of people burning to death? I wouldn't put such thinking past the airlines or any other major industry.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That was the Ford Pinto.
Shows you what type of hypocricy this is. Didn't our right-wing congress just had a $50 billion check to the airline industry, no questions asked? Compared to that, $24 billion over 20 years is pocket change.
You can't really compare the airline subsidies to Amtrak's. The recent airline bailout was an emergency measure, intended to help airlines get past the huge financial disruption caused by September 11th. No one in Congress or elsewhere would have supported a major bailout if the airlines' problems were caused by ordinary economic trends or by mis-management. Indeed, more than a few airlines have failed over the past few years without any talk of government subsidies.
Amtrak is a different matter entirely. It didn't suffer because of September 11th, indeed quite the opposite. Its financial problems have been going on for years regardless of economic trends. An Amtrak bailout, in other words, could not be justified as a post-September 11th emergency measure, as the one for the airlines was.
[Didn't our right-wing congress just had a $50 billion check to the airline industry, no
questions asked?]
Yes but only after the federal government shut down the airline industry for a week. When the government prevents an industry from operating it should pay for the cost of doing so. I would have given the bailout money to every airline except American and united since their lack of security was partially at fault.
Intercity passenger rail has been unprofitable for the better part of the 20th Century, a trend that certainly pre-dated Amtrak, if it was not the singular reason for Amtrak's creation. The rhetoric that Amtrak relies on subsidies and should therefore be eliminated has always been a political move, not any great economic revelation.
Is Amtrak a bloated, unresponsive bureaucracy? Most (all?) freight railroads certainly would rather not have to deal with Amtrak, its management and its trains. I doubt, however, that liquidation, restructuring, or whatever you want to call it will really solve the customer service problems. This issue is superficial in comparison to the question of how to make passenger rail work in the transportation marketplace.
If Amtrak were liquidated, would the private railroads want to take over the passenger franchise again? Would they even want to try something like running mixed trains? Tell me I'm wrong, but if competition with highways and the airlines weren't already too much for "profitable" intercity rail, regulation as a common carrier pretty much kills the idea of turning passenger rail back over to the private sector.
I don't know if everyone on this board is familiar with Paul Weyrich's history as a rail enthusiast, but it started before he was a reporter in Milwaukee.
He grew up in a North Shore (Chicago) suburb, and while still in high school organized and operated a railfan charter on the North Shore Line, creating a railfan "club" as a front for purposes of the charter.
The Free Congress Foundation for a number of years in the late 80's and early 90's published a slick magazine "The New Electric Railway Journal". It was a quarterly covering light rail, rapid transit, commuter rail, trolley buses, and commuter rail operations. It was designed to appeal to both railfans and transit professionals. I quote: "...The New Electric Railway Journal seeks to promote electric railways as a major element in the solution to our nation's urban transportation problems, but to do so in ways that ensure the taxpayer gets maximum benefit from public moneys used to support rail transit."
Eventually the Foundation spun the magazine off to a group headed by the editor, the late Richard Kunz of Chicago. I spoke to Kunz shortly before he died, and he chuckled at recalling Weyrich's politics. Needless to say, Kunz's views were somehat to the left of Weyrich's. Unfortunately, when Kunz died, the magazine died with him.
I miss the magazine; no other one publication comprehensively deals with electric railways past and present.
Paul Weyrich has contributed to electric railway appreciation. I don't understand his stance regarding Amtrak. I've said my piece, and have refrained from making negative political comments, better left unsaid in this forum.
For Weyrich's web site, go to www.trolleycar.org .
So this guy is from the religious right and also supports rail sounds a bit like Mussolini to me.
He wants the trains to run on time
Weyrich is a member of the organization that publishes First & Finest magazine. It is not a "slick" magazine, but has tons of information in it. I just subscribed to it.
Correction. The magazine is "First and Fastest", a quarterly publication of the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society, which covers Chicagoland electric railways, past and present. Paul Weyrich is a member of this organization, and I am also. There is no connection with his foundation or the defunct The New Electric Railway Journal.
Anyone interested in Chicago area electric railways is welcome to join and be a subscriber to an excellent publication. Shore Line's address is PO Box 346, Chicago, IL 60690. Their web site is www.Shore-Line.org.
"A new train station being built in Union Township won't be completed until next October or November, but the $30 million project at Morris Avenue and Green Lane has already ignited controversy."
Story in Star-Ledger.
I'd imagine a good amount of the opposition here stems from plans for offices and town houses in addition to the station. Residents don't want their town to become a smaller version of Metro Park - which has turned into a traffic-clogged mess over the past three decades despite rail service.
i live in union. the land around where the train station is being built was a waste land. at least now the town can collect taxes on part of it. the flow of traffic will be out to morris ave ( a main ave). traffic there has always been bad. with the improvement i hope it will be better. beside i won't seen the poeple complaining when can sell there houses at higher price because they now walking distance to "the train"
Actually Metropark rail station and Metropark office complex are functionally unrelated despite their proximity. About 1% of the office workers take the train there, and the local streets are very predstian unfriendly. It is kind of like Amtrak's Syracuse station and nearby Carousel Mall.
An anticipated bus-and-ferry link to Manhattan for Bayonne commuters was halted yesterday before it even got rolling.
Broadway Bus Co. buses had been scheduled to start shuttling passengers yesterday morning to Jersey City's Liberty State Park, where they would hop the Liberty Harbor Ferry into New York.
But park officials gave notice that the state "has not authorized commuter bus service into Liberty State Park. Any commuter buses attempting to enter Liberty State Park beginning (today) will be turned away. Please plan your commute accordingly."
Story in Jersey Journal.
NY Waterway will start ferry service next Monday between Newport in Jersey City and both West 38th Street and Pier A at the Battery.
Story in Jersey Journal.
Newport always had a ferry to the city, I forget where it went. (Link didn't load, problem might be on my side).
(Link didn't load, problem might be on my side).
It works for me. Maybe you can't get Jersey from over there. :)
Technically the current ferry is at Harborside, slightly south of the new Newport ferry slip.
But do they really think there is enough demand for a FOURTH ferry run from Jersey City (the others are Harborside, Colgate (Exchange Place) and Liberty Harbor)? (Not counting the Water Taxi to Liberty State Park) And which of the existing ferry routes is going to lose a boat or two to handle the new Newport service? They've already borrowed boats from up and down the east coast to handle the load since 9/11... it's not like they have extras laying around.
They are supposed to take delivery of 2 new boats on Monday. That's certainly enough for them to run an additional ferry service. Maybe their leases last until the end of the year.
It would be much more financially sound of them to use a brief surplus to provide excessive service, and then cut the least profitable ones, rather than to cut at random.
On my way home yesterday (Metra UP West line) I heard some new automated announcements for the first time. Heard some on the way in this morning again, interspersed with the normal "human" announcements.
-- Ed Sachs
Interesting... Was it the same canned Wisconsin radio-announcer voice that now graces the CTA trains?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Back again after being out of town last week and unable to access the internet from home over the weekend while AT&T and Excite@Home duke it out in court.
Don't ride the CTA frequently enough and haven't really heard that many Metra announcements, so can't say if it's the same voice, but it does sound similar.
Picked up the following handout on the train this morning on the way to work (dated Nov. 28):
"The next station is ..."
Automated messages coming your way
By mid-December, we plan to install our new Train Information Management System on all lines. This computer system uses global positioning satellite technology to monitor train operations and send automated on-train messages.
Our riders on the Southwest Service and som Milwaukee North Line heard these announcements during the use of the prototype system during the last year. We are ready to begin phasing in the new system for all trains on all lines.
We anticipate that some modifications may be required and beg your patience and understanding. Ultimately, the system will provide timely announcements regarding station stops, train delays, and unusual conditions. The information provided will allow more timely and accurate announcements to customers waiting for trains at stations because our personnel will have real-time train locations and estimated times of arrival. From a train operations perspective, the system will provide us with data to better determine equipment availability during a service disruption and accuracy of train sechedules to actual operation.
While we anticipate some "growing pains," we believe that the benefits of implementing the system for use during the upcoming winter months will far exceed the somewhat embarrassing moments we may face by doing so. Some announcements may seem softer than before. We are working on an upgrade to raise th volume in those cars and anticipate any problems with volume will be solved by Jan. 1.
We thank you in advance for your patience as we progress with this new communciations system.
In the brochure(s) describing these new train-to-train transfers it mentions that if the transfer placed onto the card was already used to enter the subway, an additional fare will be deducted from the card at the above stations. I assume that this means that one cannot do a bus-train and a third (train) transfer valid at the above stations. Please confirm this. Thanks.
"... if the transfer placed onto the (MetroCard) card was already used to enter the subway, an additional fare will be deducted ..."
The term is "3 legged Transfer", i.e. you get ONE Transfer for your 1.50 fare, with a few exceptions. The E/F/G to 7 transfer at Court requires your leaving "Fare Control" so you'll pay again if you have already used up the one free Transfer.
Mr rt__:^)
Umm, you get 3 transfers if you do Bus to SIR and then SIR (After Ferry) to any of the subway stops close to the ferry(Whitehall, South Ferry, Bowling Green, Broad St).
SIRT to ferry you just walk on vs. swipe the MC, but the ferry to Manhattan Subway is the 3rd leg. There are a few that the system is programed for.
Mr rt__:^)
The other solution is to get yourself an unlimited ride card. I've used it for faux transfers often (QBP - QP, Lex 63rd - Lex 59th) with no problem. I'm pretty sure the 18 minute window only applies to swiping at the same entrance-location with the umlimited ride card, to prevent you swiping multiple persons through at once. At least I can assume this since I've fake-transferred at these locations, sometimes less than 18 minutes after my initial enterance into the system, without encoutering a "JUST USED" so far.
Exactly right !
My arguement is that with all the unlimited cards in use why are they still hastling folks with value MCs, i.e. if you are traveling in the system all transfers should be free for 2 hours. Some folks would get extra rides, but not many.
But then I only work for a bus company where the TA expects us to give folks a had time & they don't even let us keep the whole 1.50. They should give us extra for doing there work for them !
Mr rt__:^)
Has anyone on this board scanned the new brochure or is it too big? I don't live in NYC and I don't want to constantly call Customer Service for every new brochure and map.
Here's the text of the English part of the brochure
PAGE 1
The Opening of the new 63 St Connector
(V)(R)(F)(E) -> New Routes, More Options, Less Crowding
Beginning Sunday, Dec. 16, 2001
All the information you need to know about the new (V) and how it affects your ride
MTA New York City Transit Going Your Way
www.mta.info
PAGE 2
Opening of the new 63 St connector for full-time service brings significant subway changes.
The Connector gives Queens Boulevard customers a new subway route to Manhattan, the (V), and allows more trains to run between Queens and Manhattan during rush hours.
PAGE 3
(F) New Route
(F) trains now run through the 63 St Connector at all times. This means the (F) no longer stops at these stations:
Queens Plaza
23 St-Ely Av
Lexington Av-53 St
Fifth Av-53 St
If you use one of these stations the (F) no longer serves, you have a new train, the (V).
(F) trains running through the 63 St Connector between Roosevelt Av and 47-50 Sts/Rockefeller Center stations stop at:
21 St-Queensbridge
Roosevelt Island
Lexington Av-63 St
57 St-6 Av
At night the (F) now makes express stops along Queens Boulevard. This means (F) service is express at all times. For local service at night use the (E) or (G).
All other (F) service remains the same.
(E)
There is no change in (E) service. It continues to run between Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer and the Canal St stations.
PAGE 4
(V) New Weekday subway line
(V) trains make all local stops between Forest Hills-71 Av in Queens and the Second Av station on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
(V) replaces (F) at four stations.
Queens Plaza
23 St-Ely Av
Lexington Av-53 St
Fifth Av-53 St
The (V) operates weekdays, 6 AM to midnight and makes all 6 Avenue local stops in Manhattan to the Lower East Side/Second Av. So now Queens Boulevard local customers do not have to transfer to reach stops along 6 Avenue.
When the (V) is not running use the (E) to get to Queens Plaza, 23 St-Ely Av, Lexington Av-53 St and Fifth Av-53 St. Transfer to the (E) at Roosevelt Av or West 4 St.
The (R) also provides local Queens Boulevard service.
(R)
There is no change in (R) service. It continues to run between Forest Hills-71 Av and Bay Ridge-95 St.
PAGE 5
(G)
The (G) runs between Court Square and Smith-9 Sts on weekdays, from 5 Am to 8:30 PM.
Transfer to the (E) or new (V) at Court Square/23 St-Ely Av for Manhattan or Queens Boulevard stations.
(G) riders have a new free subway-to-subway MetroCard transfer between Court Sq and the nearby 45 Rd-Court House Sq (7) station. This transfer is good for two hours.
(G) service is extended to Forest Hills-71 Av 8:30 PM to 5 AM weeknights and all weekend.
Do you transfer?
Between the (F) and (6)
Since the (F) no longer stops at Lexington Av-53 St, take the (E) or (V) and you can still transfer to the (6).
Or, take the (F) to Lexington Av-63 St, walk to Lexington Av-59 St, and transfer to the (4)(5)(6). This transfer is free with MetroCard and good for two hours.
Or, take the (R) to Lexington Av-59 St and transfer to the (4)(5)(6).
Between the (F) and (G)
Since the (F) no longer stops at 23 St-Ely Av, take the (E) or (V) and you can still transfer to the (G).
PAGES 6-7-8: CENTERFOLD
(This shows a map of the new service pattern.)
On the other side of the centerfold, it shows this same information in Spanish.
That's a pretty clear explanation.
Muchas Gracias!
The map can now be seen at
http://www.mta.info/nyct/63st/images/map.pdf
While Amtrak is far from perfect, this is a scheme to throw out the baby with the bath water. Congress is handing out tens of billions to the airlines, no strings attached, and Amtrak is supposed to be totally self-sufficient? Every progressive nation has government subsidized rail passenger service; the U.S. should be no exception.
"... is a fatally flawed institution that, in my opinion, is broken beyond repair," he said, painting it as bloated, unresponsive to outside advice and insufficiently focused on serving passengers."
Gee, sounds like he's talking about the MTA vs Amtrak ?
Mr rt__:^)
First off, the song is off the tracks and I don't even like rap music. It's Fabolus's Young'n Video.
Video was tapped using the Grand Central cars (Normal).....HOWEVER the front car had a Lexington Avenue Green (X) as the route (Not Normal)....
Anyone knows anything about that?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I saw this video on Channel 26 yesterday. I thought it was weird.
The only cars I know that could produce an X sign are the R32/38's, and it's on a white bullet.
I believe I recall this being brought up here when they were shooting the video a while back. You might want to look at the archives.
Peace,
ANDEE
Amtrak has consumed more than $24 billion in subsidies since its inception in 1971, including $521 million this year.
Shows you what type of hypocricy this is. Didn't our right-wing congress just had a $50 billion check to the airline industry, no questions asked? Compared to that, $24 billion over 20 years is pocket change.
I'll support eliminating all rail subsidies as soon as Congress also eliminates every subsidy to the airline and highway industries.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Remember AMR(American) is a Texas Company and so Is Continental, both CEOs friendly withjh George H and George W
But AMR just had 3 plane crashes, whereas they probably budget for just 1, and have TWA's debt load. I predict they will go down with United, which itself was a foregone conclusion even before 9/11.
I don't think Shrub, uh Bush, can head that off.
Airlines don't "budget" for crashes. That is the task of insurance company actuaries.
United "going down" is not a foreground conclusion.
Of the major airlines, the two most mentioned as being in a precarious position are America West and USAirways.
Yikes, I meant "foregone". And yes, I did preview the message.
I wouldn't put it past them budgeting mainetenance, and putting a $ value on human life.
Wasn't there a case back in the 70's where one of the Big Three automakers (I think it was Ford) decided that instead of recalling a specific car model due to a potential fire hazard, it would be more "cost-effective" to settle potential lawsuits from a relatively small number of people burning to death? I wouldn't put such thinking past the airlines or any other major industry.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That was the Ford Pinto.
Shows you what type of hypocricy this is. Didn't our right-wing congress just had a $50 billion check to the airline industry, no questions asked? Compared to that, $24 billion over 20 years is pocket change.
You can't really compare the airline subsidies to Amtrak's. The recent airline bailout was an emergency measure, intended to help airlines get past the huge financial disruption caused by September 11th. No one in Congress or elsewhere would have supported a major bailout if the airlines' problems were caused by ordinary economic trends or by mis-management. Indeed, more than a few airlines have failed over the past few years without any talk of government subsidies.
Amtrak is a different matter entirely. It didn't suffer because of September 11th, indeed quite the opposite. Its financial problems have been going on for years regardless of economic trends. An Amtrak bailout, in other words, could not be justified as a post-September 11th emergency measure, as the one for the airlines was.
[Didn't our right-wing congress just had a $50 billion check to the airline industry, no
questions asked?]
Yes but only after the federal government shut down the airline industry for a week. When the government prevents an industry from operating it should pay for the cost of doing so. I would have given the bailout money to every airline except American and united since their lack of security was partially at fault.
Has anyone seen this picture. What is that abandoned subway tunnel?
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/picture/0,,2001380099,00.jpg
That's the old PATH tunnel to Hudson Terminal, which was abandoned when the new station west of Greenwich Street was built. There's a thread from about two weeks ago that deals with the Port Authority's discussion of reopening the old Hudson Terminal station and reactivating those tunnels for a new PATH terminal.
That tunnel was used by PATH (and H&M) trains to reach the old Hudson Terminal station, east of the WTC station PATH trains used until 9/11.
That map is kind of wrong, the old Hudson Terminal station that others mentioned would be between those two "tunnels" in front of (and I guess partially underneath) WTC 4 and WTC 5. They didn't extend past the street in front of WTC 4/5 which is Church Street if you have a streetmap. Hudson Terminal's platforms would have been parallel to but not quite underneath Church St.
Today, coming home, on 2806 being the last car SB, I noticed the destination no longer says Kings Highway, but 86st. Is it like that on all N destinations now?
It is that way on the ones that have it on their rolls. IIRC all of the cars used on the line don't have it. But this could have changed in the recent past.
Peace,
ANDEE
They all said Kings Highway when I took the N on 11/16, but most were rolled to only show Brooklyn.
The "Brooklyn-86 St" reading is on the new rollsigns on the R68 and R68A put in since July 22, 2001. There is still a car or 2 with the old signs. Nevertheless, "Brooklyn-Kings Highway", possibly for the F Line is on the sign as well. I guess the C/Rs changing the rolls for the route termination at 86 Street never knew about it and flipped it to Kings Highway till recently.
Only on R68s and 68As. R32s and Slants don't have 86th Street on their rolls as far as I know.
I've noticed recently that there have been a lot of cracked windows. Especially on the N line. When do these things gt replaced? I saw one worker just riding on the train and putting duct tape to reinforce the window. Is that the new way to "fix" the problem especially if it has to do with the N line?
Also, to add to this, on my way home today, on 2806, some kid runs into the car at Fort Hamilton Pkwy and runs to the window and before the train starts moving, I heard a loud thud. Turns out that some other kid across the platform threw something and cracked the window. Damn delinquints. The kid then starts hysterically laughing. That's insane! There were people on the car who could have gotten hurt if that "shatter-proof" glass shattered...
The glass with crack but not shatter. I've seen it someone punch the window cracking it before. If you run your hand over it and it was a light hit, you don't feel anything. I guess for the bigger jobs they put the tape over. Plus, it keeps the glass from going a far out.
In my shop all cracked glass discovered in inspection is replaced even if it is just a little something of a hairline. 'Defects' are usually attended to with 'Skotch Tape' on the line until. Peter
I sometimes wonder if Robert Moses would have agreed to build the 2nd Avenue line as a sort of last hurrah after the MTA took over Triborough. The last two chapters of "The Power Broker" tell us that as Rockefeller gradually took Triborough away from Moses and thereafter kept him at arm's length, Moses was desperate for a project to work on, even though he was over 80 years old. He thought that he was going to build the LI Sound Crossing, but that never came to pass.
If Rocky had told Moses in about 1972, its the 2nd Avenue line or nothing, would he have gone for it? We sure could use a Robert Moses on that project, to be sure.
He didn't seem to like any public transportation.
Moses would have torn up the subways and built highways
Let's remember one IMPORTANT thing about Bob Moses:
He was a champion of the PRIVATE CAR, and NOT of the BUS, TRAIN/SUBWAY.
I am certain he would have found a way to divert subway money into extraordinary parkway-expressway structures, such as the never built Manhattan Expressway.
Moses would have at first said yes to pacify Rocky, then pave it with asphalt and limit it to the limos.
But, he NEVER in his life supported a rail project. His last hurrah was almost ramrodding the lower Manhattan Xway, but then told no.
Let me add my voice to this non-debate. Robert Moses had only one use for mass transit. he used the planning to get funding for projects that he wanted to build. For example, the 2nd level on the Verrazano bridge and GW Bridge were first proposed for mass transit. Once funding was approved, Moses had the mass transit plans killed in favor of a second level for motor vehicles.
Robert Moses Had No Infuence over Constructon & Operations of the George Washington Bridge. The Bridge is Owned Br The PA Of Ny & NJ.
Moses did have influence over the Port Authority.
Moses woild have built the roads going to the GW Bridge and would have indirectly have control over it.
First of all, as a bi-state agency, Moses did exert considerble influence over the building of the GW Bridge. However, had he not, he was the chief protagonist for the X-Bronx expressway - a major justification for the 2nd auto level on the bridge.
No. He considered mass transit to be a thing of the past. He would have viewed building the Second Avenue Subway to be regressive.
If you were told you couldn't build the Second Avenue Subway, would you advocate taking the money and spending it on a nice highway?
I sometimes wonder if Robert Moses would have agreed to build the 2nd Avenue line as a sort of last hurrah after the MTA took over Triborough. The last two chapters of "The Power Broker" tell us that as Rockefeller gradually took Triborough away from Moses and thereafter kept him at arm's length, Moses was desperate for a project to work on, even though he was over 80 years old. He thought that he was going to build the LI Sound Crossing, but that never came to pass.
If Rocky had told Moses in about 1972, its the 2nd Avenue line or nothing, would he have gone for it?
Quite possibly.
Much has been made about how Moses was strongly pro-auto and opposed to transit. While that may be true, I suspect that it was a result of the times in which Moses operated, rather than something deep in his character. Moses' heyday largely coincided with a big expansion of auto use all throughout the United States. Cars were seen as the wave of the future, giving people the freedom to leave dirty crowded cities and claim their stakes in the suburbs. They stood for mobility, not mere utilitarian transportation. It's probably hard to understand that sort of mindset today, what with our perpetually traffic-choked roads, but things were different 50 years ago. Moses quickly picked up on this budding love affair with the automobile and sought to build the roads that would make it possible.
Switch forward to the early 1970's. It would have been obvious to everyone, Moses included, that cars were not the solution to all social and economic problems, and indeed caused plenty of problems themselves. Transit, which seemed woefully obsolete two decades earlier, was starting to make more sense, at least to those who considered the issue carefully (as Moses surely would have). In short, Moses probably had lost much of his dislike of transit, and might have jumped at the opportunity to make his final mark on the world by building the Second Avenue line.
[Moses probably had lost much of his dislike of transit, and might have jumped at the opportunity to make
his final mark on the world by building the Second Avenue line.]
Moses didn't like thing people couldn't see he would have built a second Ave El.
About are heck the talking what you?
What he means is Moses hated not only subways, but also the Queens Midtown and Brooklyn Battery tunnels because they don't display their magesty to the public the way Moses' Triborough, Henry Hudson and Whitestone bridges of the same general time period did. So if you held a gun to his head and told him you have to build a mass transit system, he would have probably preferred a state-of-the-art elevated line which everyone could see to another undergrond tunnel.
Oh, and he probably would have knocked down all the buildings fronting either side of Second Ave., making it about as wide as Park Ave., in order to allow the el to run in the middle of the street while expanding the vehicular traffic lanes. And if anyone complained, well, Bob knew the law better than anyone else, because he wrote it in the first place...
Robert Moses never let up on his hatred of mass transit. He never wavered from his earliest days working for Al Smith until Nelson Rockefeller finally forced him out of his many offices. At the time, he was championing the idea of a bridge across the Long Island Sound between Bayville and Rye.
Moses wanted nothing to do with people that came to Jones Beach on the bus from either the Freeport or Wantagh LIRR station, and had to be forced into accomidating them on at least a minimal level. Second Avenue subway? Maybe he would have built a Second Avenue Expressway. But throughout his entire career he saw mass transit as his enemy, and as with all his perceived enemies, he took it very personally.
Don't get me wrong, Moses had many positive accomplishments with the beaches, bridges and parkways. But even here he could have done things better. He made his deals with the North Shore barrons, skirting the Northern State Parkway along the southern borders of their properties in order to placate them, while destroying the farms of people who weren't as well connected and couldn't fight back. And what he did to East Tremont by building the Cross Bronx Expressway right through it was a crime.
Sorry to have gone on so long and for straying a bit from the subject.
Moses was the PENULTIMATE racist ... that's why his little dirtways were DELIBERATELY designed to keep busses off them. "Wrong element" may discover the "burbs" and want to *LIVE* there. He wasn't a very nice person either.
My heavens we couldn't have that could we, can't have "them people" in the suburbs (or as my hero Ron Kuby calls them, "Outer Whitelandia").
Crimminy! Oh, the property values. Images of watermelons burning on front lawns. Lawsy, save me, Moses ... :)
You're absolutely right that Robert Moses was not a very nice person. Have you noticed that the Throgg's Neck and the Verrazano Narrows Bridges were built WITHOUT walkways? That was thanks to Robert Moses who thought that only vehicular traffic should use those bridges. The Bronx-Whitestone did have walkways in its earlier years but, they were eliminated when they had to reinforce the bridge with truss like braces which were put in place some time after the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse on November 7th 1940. Here is another dirty secret about Robert Moses, he never learn how to drive, he was chauffeured to every place he had to go. He never had "hands on" experience of what it is like to get stuck in traffic. Robert moses was NOT good for New York. Go to http://www.lihistory.com/7/hs722a.htm/ to learn more about Robert Moses.
#3 West End Jeff
Moses was the PENULTIMATE racist
He was the second last rascist?
:-) Andrew
Whoops! Brain gas. :)
Robert Moses was full of it.
#3 West End Jeff
I realize it might be a little late after the posting, but aren't you the racist for assuming that all poor people are black and that all black people are poor?
Ummm ... where did I single out people of color? The "wrong element" is poor people of any ilk who didn't drive their own Lincoln Continental. :)
Moses didn't think much of Hispanics, Greeks, Irish, or any of the other "huddled masses" out of the city.
Moses was not a man in search of solutions, he was a man in pursuit of furthering his world view. He died only 20 years ago at the age of 92 and never waivered in his concepts of urban and suburban planning and social engineering, and his belief in highways and automobiles was part and parcel of that.
I admire your open-mindedness, but on this point do not agree with you.
Moses had an opportunity to install what is now AirTran on the Van Wyck Expressway at the time it was built, for a very small fraction of today's cost. He refused.
Add that to a thousand other examples, several of which are listed in this thread. Moses only built to satisfy his own needs. Those needs did not include trains. He remains the worst enemy of mass transit and those who ride it.
Switch forward to the early 1970's. It would have been obvious to everyone, Moses included, that cars were not the solution to all social and economic problems, and indeed caused plenty of problems themselves. Transit, which seemed woefully obsolete two decades earlier, was starting to make more sense, at least to those who considered the issue carefully (as Moses surely would have).
This was clear well before the early '70s. The evidence of traffic generation (that building more lanes of highway can actually create more congestion) was apparent as early as the late '30s and more generally understood by the '50s. Moses did not change his mindset, in part because he was extremely stubborn and refused to rethink his approach to transportation problems, and in part because he needed heavy traffic on roads connecting to Triborough bridges and tunnels in order to keep the Triborough coffers full.
"While that may be true, I suspect that it was a result of the times in which Moses operated, rather than something deep in his character."
Not correct. He said explicitly in his autobiography that he hates (hated) railroads and trains. IIRC, it had something to do with all the smoke and soot, even though trains in New York hadn't run on steam since 1910 or so. If I had a few minutes -- I'm at work -- I could find a copy of the book and cite to the page.
He said explicitly in his autobiography that he hates (hated) railroads and trains. IIRC, it had something to do with all the smoke and soot, even though trains in New York hadn't run on steam since 1910 or so. If I had a few minutes -- I'm at work -- I could find a copy of the book and cite to the page.
Just because Moses personally didn't like railroads and transit doesn't mean that he would have opposed a transit project that made a lot of sense economically.
Oh yes he would ... the second avenue subway proposal was the last straw for the boy ... "over MY dead body" ... Rocky invited him to leave when the MTA was created.
Let us not forget why the TA was created to replace the Board: to create a more powerful organization to withstand Moses.
I just saw a 7-part NYC doucmentary on a PBS channel over the weekend. I learned a lot about Moses - he is more evil than I had imagined.
He was a genuine stinker ... GM loved him though.
He was a stinker and a racist bastard.
Eric D. Smith
[He was a stinker and a racist bastard.]
What proff do you have that he was racist?
He built parks in wealthy white neighborhoods, rammed expressways through poor neighborhoods like a maniac, and herded minorities in disgusting crime infested high rise housing projects.
Eric Dale Smith
[He built parks in wealthy white neighborhoods]
He built parks where land was available. There was land available in less populated areas. Many of his housing projects also included open space.
[rammed expressways through poor neighborhoods like a maniac]
So only black people were poor if you think that it is you that is being racist.
[and herded
minorities in disgusting crime infested high rise housing projects.]
The goal was to improve the living conditions of the poor people. While it didn't work out the goal was an improvement.
bullshit......
Actually, the housing story is true -- even liberals and progressives supported the urban renewal programs at the outset, with the original designs being based first on the successful lower rise public housing like the Gouvernir Homes on the Lower East Side, and the Met Life developments at Parkchester, Stuyvesant Town, Peter Cooper Village and Riverton in the 1940s (Moses played a role here in getting much of the land for the Peter Cooper and Stuyvesant Town developments turned over to Met Life, but looking back on that 58-year-old move, it's hard to argue what's there now is worse than what was there before).
Unfortunately, the problem was while the higher rise formula of the Met Life projects worked for middle class housing, Moses and the other planners took those 10-to-15 story buildings and drasitcally increased them in size for their own public housing designs and the post-Moses Mitchell-Lama public housing. The result was high rises that contained too many people and were too impersonal, where the worst of the group could basically seize control of the area and turn it into a nightmare for the other residents.
The fact that so many other cities ran into the same problem shows in this case, Moses wasn't the main cause, just a facillitator.
Now if you want to talk about his arrogance in his post-1937 highway projects, or the Central Park controversies or the 1964 N.Y. World's Fair financial debacle, that's another story.
Although I'm not defending Moses and alot of that may be true you must remember that almost all the negative things about Robert Moses comes from one source: The Power Broker. Mostly anything else written about him, especially in the press at the time, was positive. Before I form an opinion about anyone I have to know both sides. And Pulitzer Prize notwithstanding Robert Caro comes across extremely biased against Moses in his book as if he had an anti Robert Moses agenda. I wouldn't take anything he says as Gospel, he was not G-d. Lets face it, there are alot more parks in NYC proportionately to its area than any other US city. Jones Beach and the Long Island Parkways were an amazing undertaking. The parkways were absolutely beautiful before they were modernized with the distinctive wood lightpoles removed, and schoolbuses, SUV's, and pickups allowed. I commute to Brooklyn from LI every day by taking the Meadowbrook, Northern State, Grand Central, and the Intrbo Jackie Robinson. I could imagine how my commute would be with just the LIE and a bunch of streets.
Also the book has plenty of inaccuracies and unsubstantiated facts in it.
Don't get me wrong, Moses may have been as bad as posters said he was but to substantiate it you need more than one source, Pulitzer Prize notwithstanding.
This is getting farther and father away from topic here and some folks know that I have a few personal strings that are easy to pull. I never read "Power Broker" ... my own information on what Robert Moses was like and what his thinking processes came from came from people I know who worked for and with him directly. Politicians I've sat and shot the shit with, former Triboro employees and management, former state executives including Rocky hisself (as a journalist) ... all told, I'd say I had personally interviewed about 40 people who had intimate knowledge and first hand experience with old Bobby.
NOT A ONE expressed any admiration for him and in particular, my old boss, one William Ronan had a particular distaste for Moses. The man was a pompous, racist megalomaniac who even scared the crap out of ROCKEFELLER, no easy task I assure ya.
Find me ANYONE who had personal contact with Robert Moses who has anything GOOD to say about him (other than General Motors execs, that'd be cheating) ... double dare. Triple. :)
"rammed expressways through poor neighborhoods like a maniac"
True-- but he also rammed the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expressway through middle-class neighborhoods in Nassau County. The way it wantonly sliced through the area is evident even today, with all manner of oddball dead-end streets that used to connect. He was also prepared to ram it through Bayville as well, but the rich folks there had enough clout to stop him. This evolution into a bulldozer of middle- and upper-class neighborhoods is part of what ultimately led to his downfall.
If only the subway system had a patron like Moses. [sigh]
It is so interesting....I just saw the documentary on PBS about NYC and the first two episodes dealt extensively with Moses and his attitudes. Basically his attitude was sometimes a few have to suffer for the benefit of the majority......
Well, in the papers the last couple of days we have Pataki and his MTA cronies singing the praises of the new V train and what wonderful things it means for the Queens Blvd. riders. Of course, the G train riders have to suffer. And what did the head honcho of the MTA say when asked about the valid grievances of the G train riders? See Robert Moses 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, etc.
Every so often he had to knuckle under to the rich. That's why the Northern State turns sharply after Roslyn Rd and goes N/S along Glen Cove Rd to the Meadowbrook. He needed the people who lived in Old Westbury so he avoided condemning their properties.
And highly regarded around here. Heh. :)
Read the "Power Broker". I did when I was fifteen back in 1980. What Moses did blew my mind. As a railfan you should be the last one taking his side since if he'd had his way the Els and subways would have long since been extinct.
Eric D. Smith
Not taking his side AT ALL ... my point was that General Motors sure seemed to like him ... sorry if it came off looking like something else.
My apologies. I misread your last post.
Eric D. Smith
Actually, you got it right ... I was commenting on how he's particularly despised here. As someone who grew up in the Bronx and watched him slice my home borough to shreds, I have a particular disdain for him and am perpetually amazed at how few of his defenders realize WHY those bridge overpasses of his were designed the way they were to prohibit busses from navigating his roads and the underlying reasons for his choosing to do so and THEN having the stones to loudly proclaim WHY he did it ... simply amazing.
[WHY those bridge overpasses of his were designed the way they were to prohibit busses from navigating
his roads]
It wasn't just him many of the parkway in Boston are built the same way. The idea was to keep commercial vehicles off the roads. Parkways were designed for recreational driving back when there was such a thing.
Ummm ... Boston wasn't quite so "liberal" either. Remember "Southie?" :)
Yes indeed ... Robert Moses DEFINITELY would have built the second avenue subway if he had been permitted to. It would have been three lanes in each direction with toll booths and plazas every half mile, closed to trucks and busses. :)
I wouldn't take anything too seriously in The Power Broker. The book is both extremely biased against Moses and also very full of inaccuracies.
The bias shows through throughout the whole book almost as if Caro had an anti Moses agenda. Except in the first few chapters about the young Moses there is almost nothing positive written about him. I'm sure alot of that might be true but I strongly suspect it is extremely exagerated. I definitely don't believe he kept the water at the Jones Beach Pool very cold because he thought blacks didn't like cold water which is stated by Caro!!
As far as inaccuracies I found an awful lot. Some that come to mind now are:300 miles between Niagara Falls & NYC. (page 248) A small point maybe but an author writing a book almost entirely about NY and NY politics should have an idea of the size of the state. (I wish it was 300 miles, I could ride the Toronto streetcars and subways more often!!)
I have no idea how RM could see the land for Hempstead Lake State Park from the Babylon LIRR Branch a few miles away, especially if there were alot of trees.
Caro writes that before Moses' LI parkways the only roads anyone can use to get from Queens out east was 2 lane Northern Blvd and Sunrise Hway and the parkways were the first limited access highways from Queens east to LI as if the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway never existed. C'mon, did Caro do any research?
There were alot of other blaring inaccuracies that caught my eye as I was reading the book but I don't remember now. The number of inaccuracies make me question any fact in the book.
< Caro writes that before Moses' LI parkways the only roads anyone can use to get from Queens out east was 2 lane Northern Blvd and Sunrise Hway and the parkways were the first limited access highways from Queens east to LI as if the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway never existed. C'mon, did Caro do any research? >
Even without the Parkways, getting between LI and NYC was not a problem with the LIRR. Penn Station anf the east River tunnels did more to populate LI than any of his asphalted blood alleys.
Moses is the man responsible for the Brooklyn Dodgers being history. His refusal to condemn that land at Atlantic and Flatbush th at was of no use to anyone at the time meant that the Dodgers would leave Brooklyn. That was a crime of immense proportions to the people of Brooklyn. He is more at fault than Walter O'Malley.
[His refusal to condemn that land at Atlantic and Flatbush
th at was of no use to anyone at the time meant that the Dodgers would leave Brooklyn.]
So he should have taken private land using public money to build a sports stadium with public money that a private teem would have used at little cost. Fred I thought you believed in small government. I guess you only believe in government spending that doesn't benefit you in some way.
Steingrabber's STILL trying to get NYC to do the same thing. :)
I hope NYC is smart enough not to do it. The Yankees and Mets would make more money by building tier own stadiums in New York than having some second rate city build a stadium for them. Any treats to leave are lies. Only the people how care about baseball should pay for baseball stadium. Up in Boston the state won a major battle with the football teem. The teem went so far as to sign a lease with Hartford but at the end they would up staying where they were with the state only helping by backing loans that the team made.
The "deal" between Steingrabber, Rudy and the Donald (Trump) for a city-built stadium on the upper west side is still sitting behind the wings ... wonder if Stengrabber's going to propose a stadium down by Battery Park now ... not that I really care, mind ya. I'm a METS fan since I was born and raised in Da Bronx. :)
A Mets fan in the Bronx. Absolutely beautiful.
Try going to a Rockies game when the Mets are in town, then be asked who you're rooting for when you're yelling and screaming for the Mets. I just pointed to my orange and blue "NY" cap. 'Nuff said.
When the Mets play in LA there are about 40% of the fans who root for the Mets and boy are we loud. When the Red Sox, my favorite American League team, plays the Angels, about 75% are rooting for the Red Sox? As Mel Allen used to say: "H ow about that?!!!!!!
When i used to go to Anaheim, especially in the 60s or 70s and the Yankees were in town, 50-60 pct were Yankee fan, and I was a Yankee fan in Flatbush as a kid. Fred can t understand that
I can understand you rooting for the Yankees at an Angels game, but, yes, I cannot understand how a nice Jewish boy from Flatbush could be a Yankee fan instead of the Dodgers. In fact I never knew any Jews or Blacks in Brooklyn who were not Dodger fans. Yes, there were Italians in Brooklyn who liked the Yanks because of all the Piasans on that team, a fact that made me utterly sick. In fact I hated the Italians on the Yankees worst of all. To this Dago it was heresy that they had to play for that team. I'm probably the only Italian boy who despised Joe DiMaggio. But I did. That is, until I got older and appreciated what a great player he was.
I take it you didn't care for Phil Rizzuto, either. We won't discuss Sal Maglie. Until he came to the Dodgers, he was probably the most hated man in Brooklyn.
Phil Rizzuto????? That pint sized little squirt who talks with marbles in his mouth? Couldn't stand him, or Yogi, or Billy, or Vic Raschi. What a bunch of goons.
Martin was not Italian, he was Portugeese
Not according to him, he wasn't. He said he was very proud of his Italian-heritage. Of course, I would gladly have him anything but Italian since I thought he was a first class asshole. A great manager, yes, but still an a-hole.
My first baseball glove was a Rawlings Billy Martin model I was 9 or 10
Phil Rizzuto????? That pint sized little squirt who talks with marbles in his mouth? Couldn't stand him, or Yogi, or Billy, or Vic Raschi. What a bunch of goons.
I finally finished the DiMaggio Book you gave me, and I lost quite a bit of respect for him as a man, not the player though. I grew up more in the Mantle-Berra-Ford Years
thread drift.....guys way ''outfield'' on this one......please change the heading......LIKE I DID.....
And back again ... wonder how many train windows have been broken by home runs? Actually I don't, but I'm desperate. :)
In the case of Yankee Stadium or even Shea Stadium, probably none. No one in the majors ever hit a fair ball out of YS. Mantle came the closest on two occasions. Josh Gibson OTOH did hit one completely out while playing with the Homestead Grays. He pulled it right down the left field line and managed to clear the roof. As for Shea, the 7 is too far away for a batted ball to reach the el structure on the fly. One would think Darryl Strawberry would have had a shot. I remember Ken Singleton once hit a monster shot over the back fence in right field in 1971, but even that didn't come close to the 7.
I love it ... this thread is entitled "thread drift" and we're talking about broken windows on the subway trains zipping by outside the baseball parks ... meanwhile, back in the original thread that needed a diverging route, they're still talking sports stats. Gotta love it here. Heh.
I guess the MTA isn't paying extra glass coverage insurance then. :)
.
Just what would have expected from you Andee, a big serving of NOTHING!!!!!
[When the Red Sox,
my favorite American League team]
Fred you like the red sox that's great I am huge red sox fan from Boston. Have you ever been to Fenway Park? I've been somewhat turned off lately by the team but I hope the new owner is good. When the Red Sox played in Montreal last year it was 90% Red sox fans.
At the risk of offending the chief of thought police Andee, yes, I have been to Fenway twice and loved it. It is baseball and it should be played. I would love to see a Red Sox-Mets World Series again someday. Let me tell you this, though. Last summer I went to see the Bosox played in Anaheim. The place was jumping and two-thirds of the fans were rooting for the Red Sox. The Angel fans gapped in disbelief. They couldn't imagine fans that rabid rooting for their team. Of course, the Angel fans and their team suck and we never go their to watch them. The only thing missing is a subway to the ballpark. That is what I really miss about New York. You can take the train to the game. That's the way to go.
Every year I go to Anaheim when the Yankees play there. Want to talk about lopsided fan support? At this year's sold-out games, I would estimate that two-thirds of the fans were Yankee fans, continuosuly chanting as if they were at Yankee Stadium.
As rabid a Yankee fan as I am, however, I must admit that Fenway is either the best or second-best place to see a baseball game. The only reason I vascillate on this issue is because last year I finally made a trip to Chicago and saw a day game at Wrigley.
Each ballpark has its own merits: Fenway is the smallest ballpark in the majors; it has the strangest angles, nooks and crannies of any ballpark; it has the "Green Monster" and the manually-operated scoreboard; the fans are very talkative, opinionated, and quite knowledgable about baseball; the park is so small you can hear the players TALKING if you sit low down enough.
Wrigley is a bit larger than Fenway, but even more of a throw-back. Classic rectagular ballpark architecture; the brick walls and the ivy; NO electronic scoreboards or DiamondVision; a friendly, party-like atmosphere; restaurants and bars surrounding the ballpark where fans hang out before and after the game; the "Bleacher Bums"; the spectators on makeshift bleachers on the apartment house roofs.
And..like at the New York ballparks, you can take SUBWAYS (even if one is an underground trolley and the other is an "L") to either Fenway or Wrigley.
MP: You are right on the money on all counts. Fenway or Wrigley! And either way you come up a winner. A real baseball atmosphere, good baseball fans who know the game, a carnival before the game and a lot of fun afterwards sitting around or going to the nearest tavern for a sandwich and soda. I do think, however, the Boston fans are more rabid. They engage you in conversation from the moment you get there and it never stops. Maybe some day there will be a Cubs-Red Sox World Series and that will be the day baseball takes over again as out most popular sport.
Yeh right, But you can take the train to Anaheim, the Anaheim Station on Amtrak/Metrolink, is just beyond Center field. In the old days before they enclosed the park you can watch the trains from Behind Home Plate
Speaking of the Red Sox, here's a little story that says the New York Times has joined with a group headed by television producer Tom Werner, ski industry businessman Les Otten and former U.S. Sen. George Mitchell in an effort to buy the Red Sox from the Yawkey Trust.
Werner, of course, was the man who owned the San Diego Padres back in the early 90s after making a mint off "The Cosby Show" and whose biggest claim to fame was getting his then-sitecome star Rosanne to sing the National Anthem at one of the team's games.
Mitchell, meanwhile, followed in the footsteps of many other politicians while in Congress by becomming a millionaire on a annual salary of about $120,000. At least he has an air of competence about him, and still has friends there who might keep baseball from losing its anti-trust exemption.
Otten, according to Bill Madden's column in today's Daily News managed to run his business into backruptcy, but still apparently had enough spare change to get in on the Red Sox deal.
Werner, Mitchell Otten and the New York Times -- Hey, I root for the Yanks, but even I can't wish this quartet onto Red Sox fans' heads...
It happens. So many of my loud, bersterous, brutish buddies were Junkee fans and so just to cheese them arf, I'd root for da Mets. And let's face it - Mets fans know what PRAYING is about and every now and then get their miracle ... the Junkees are boring. :)
I see where Steinbrenner is already at it trying to buy another World Series appearance by signing Jason Giambi. I hope Giambi breaks his.........Nah, I don't mean t hat. I hope he doesn't sign with the Yankees. I'll leave it at that.
That's why I like the Mets ... winning isn't everything and when it happens, it's special. The sportsmanship of the Junkees is like going fishing with claymore mines. :)
Of course, during the late 70s, the Mets didn't pursue any free agents because they "wanted to hold down ticket prices so our fans can come see them play". They were so bad then, they couldn't give away tickets. Tug McGraw remembers coming to New York with the Phillies and being depressed at seeing 6,000, maybe 7,000 people in the stands. On top of that, his teammates would gripe, "Aw, geez, now we've gotta go to New York and play." If only Gil Hodges hadn't died and Whitey Herzog had stayed in the organization...
Ah well, don't need much in ticket sales to buy "soul" ... the Mets had and have "soul" ... the Junkees, well they have a bankroll.
The Mets have a bankroll too -- remember, given equal teams New York is still a National League town in terms of drawing power -- but they just haven't either spent right or pulled the trigger at the right times for whatever reason.
Steinbrenner spent like a drunken sailor from 1979-90 and all he got out of it was getting beaten up in an elevator at the '81 series. Fortunately, the Yanks were blessed by Howie Spira, whose allegations against George in the Dave Winfield mess managed to get him suspended for two years, during which time people who actually knew something about baseball were able to come in and rebuild the team. Hopefully, Selig will suspend George again a year or two from now when the next rebuilding effort begins so it can be just as successful...
Suspend him for what?
Unfortunately, that's the problem -- he's got to do something first to get suspended. But with several holes to fill this year (infield defense at the corners looks pretty shaky right now for 2002) and likely several more upcoming in the next few years in the pitching rotation, I'm afraid George is going to revert back into his "throw money at whoever the latest hot free agent is" and come up with a repeat of his late 80s-early 90s teams that had high payrolls and low performance.
Steinbrenner still has it in him to out-Peter Angelos Peter Angelos, which is why I hope he'll step back and let people who know what they're doing rebuild the team. Given his past history though, I'm not betting the rent money on it...
Brocius retireing, give a chance for the rookie. 1st base, Giambi, too bad Tino will be missed. What he needs is a right field replacement for O Neil, maybe Bonds. Spencer in left. he still has a solid team. Maybe bring back Wells, who is a free agent if he lets El Duque Go.
They're hoping Drew Henson will be ready to play third in 2003, so this year's 3B could just be a stopgap. the question is do the look for a bat or a glove (if they find one with both, Henson isn't as big a factor in 2003). Giambi wants to play first if he signs with the Yanks, which may work out if Soriano continues to improve defensively at second -- he's better than Knoblauch, which isn't hard (Chuck apparently leared his second base skills as a Yank from Steve Sax), but he'll have to do better if Giambi, with his weaker glove and more limited range, takes over for Tino.
Wells is as big, or bigger a question mark than El Duque and with Bonds, I think he's asking for a fairly long-term deal for someone his age. George may be willing to pay it, but there have been cases in the past of players suddenly getting old one year when they're in their late 30s like Bonds (or Clemens, for that matter) is.
The Yanks are by no means in terrible shape, it's just the they're going to have to be very smart about filling a lot of holes in the next several years, and the early 1980s should show George that throwing money at The Next Big Free Agent doesn't always work as well as planned.
Come on, the mets have just as much a payroll as the Yankees. The only reason they have "soul" is because they signed grade B players who decided to try and get into the playoff race too little too late. Weren't you watching the three world series games in the bronx. If that team doesn't have soul, no team does. And i hate to break it to you, but except for David Justice, all of the starting line-up has either been from the farm system or been with the team since 1996. The only major free agent acquisition in the past few years was Mike Mussina. The mets do have soul...i personally wanted another Subway Series...but you can't say the yankees don't.
That's just what I wanted to hear. A guy named Brooklyn Dodger and with Jackie Robinson's number praising a team that Jackie called racist. But you are right about those three games in New York, the Yankees did show a lot of guts and class. That cannot be denied.
And the Lakers are not the best team money can buy, how about all the money the offered Shacq to come play for them, before that they were nobodies
Real nobodies. I guess you could call Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, James Worthy, Michael Cooper, et al, nobodies. They won five titles in the 80's. And do you remember the Wilt and Jerry Show of 1972? 69-13? Yes sir, nobodies. BTW, three in a row this year.
I seem to recall those 1971-72 Lakers won 33 straight at one point. That's still the longest winning streak in professional sports.
Yeah, but if DeBusschere hadn't gotten hurt in Game 2 of the NBA finals...
Yeah but they went through a long drought until the bought O Neal.
They traded for O'Neill
I think Bob means Shaquille, not Paul.
The Lakers haven't developed a center on their own since George Mikan and the team were in the Twin Cities. They always wait for a disgruntled big man (Wilt, Kareem) to decide he wants the big bucks and glamorous life of the Southland, then pick him up and win some titles. When the Lakers have to draft a center on their own, they get Vlady Divac...
Oops..my mistake. But the lakers did get Kobe Bryant because of Vlade Divac. I bet the Hornets are kicking themselves about that deal
Though IIRC Kobe was fixing to pull a Wilt/Kareem/Shaq on the Hornets and refuse to play for them if he was drafted, demanding to go to a "glamour" team where he'd have a chance to win right away -- not a new tactic; John Elway used the Yankees as bait to get Baltimore to trade his rights to Denver in 1983.
In Bryant's case, I think the threat was he would sign with some European team and play there until Charlotte lost their draft rights, so the Hornets didn't have much of a choice but to make a trade with some team Kobe would be willing to play for.
I really like all this pissing and moaning I'm hearing about how the Lakers get this disgruntled player by offering big money, and that player by offering money, and that player-----bullcrap. Ever hear of George Steinbrenner. How come his antics of buying pennants never get a hoot out of any of you New Yorkers? But then you love to jump on the Lakers. Face it guys, you are going to have to put up with the LA Lakers for a long time so get used to it. Two in a row will probably become three in a row and there isn't a damn thing you or those pathetic Knicks can do about it. We own Pro-basketball.
Hey, I appreciated the 1996 Yanks the most because that was a team that was pretty much built from the ground up. The last three seasons have been more patch jobs and George has gone out and bought where they needed to fill, but at least for now, he not spending like an idiot like Peter Angelos down in Baltimore (who knew that so much of Peter's law firm's take from the government tobacco settlement was going to go to Albert Belle's retirement fund?).
The Lakers do the same thing, but are far more low-keyed about it and usually have the superstar players come looking for them (Magic being the lone exception here over the last 35 years), so their PR never looks as bad as the Yanks.
As for the title, yea, they're the favorites, unless Shaq gets really mad at Phil (again) because he thinks Kobe's hogging the ball and demands a trade or decides to get an early start on his recently announced goal to become a sheriff when he retires (just don't let him shoot at anybody from the foul line...)
...build a sports stadium with public money..."
This is not at all what O'Malley was after. He was not looking for a free stadium, for tax breaks, or for handouts of any kind. His desired stadium at Flatbush and Atlantic Aves. would have been built entirely with private money, just as Dodger Stadium in Chavez Ravine eventually was.
(Incidentally and for the record, I am not fundamentally opposed to public financing for sports stadiums. It depends entirely on the circumstances. It may have been appropriate in Cleveland. There a new, publicly-financed ballpark helped to improve the city's perception among out-of-towners, probably boosting tourism and spending, and thereby helping the economy. The park also sparked a renewal of fan interest in what had become a moribund team. So, it benefitted everyone. A new, publicly-financed park would be most inappropriate, however, in New York, where the team is at or near all-time highs in dollar value, attendance, merchandise sales, TV rights fees, and every other indicator of "health". Not one cent of public money should go to help that incredibly wealthy team get a new ballpark. If they want a new park, they should buy the land and build it themselves.)
The plot of land at Flatbush and Atlantic Aves. that the Dodgers wanted for their new stadium consisted of many parcels owned by many different owners. The only thing the Dodgers needed Moses and the City to do was to consolidate the land into one big parcel so that the team could buy it and then build their own park on it.
This sort of thing would have been small potatoes for Moses, a man who could make highways and bridges appear (and neighborhoods disappear) virtually with a wave of of his hand. Yet, he ignored even this meager request on the part of the Dodgers.
(It strikes me that there is a deep consistency there -- that a guy who so lacked an understanding of the needs of ordinary New Yorkers that he continued to blithely scar the land with immediately-obsolete highways would also be utterly oblivious to the value of the Dodgers as a beloved cultural institution.)
While O'Malley was trying and failing to get the City to help him, he was approached by the L.A. people, who offered him essentially the thing he was trying to get here -- title to the land. (I believe the L.A. deal involved the team giving to the City of L.A. a minor league park that it owned, in return for ownership of Chavez Ravine.)
After O'Malley had developed a relationship with the L.A. people and had already begun negotiations with them, the City finally made an offer, and an inadequate one at that -- the City offered to build a municipal stadium in Flushing Meadows, at the site where Shea Stadium now stands. It would be diffcult to come up with a better example of "too little, too late".
So, the widespread demonization of O'Malley is mostly erronous. I mean, yes, he was an exploitive employer, but only to the extent that all baseball owners were. However, he is not to blame for the Dodgers' move; Moses is. O'Malley gets far too much vitriol hurled at his name, and Moses (who, of course, merits virtually limitless quantities of vitriol, opprobrium, animus, etc.) gets far too little.
There is a great book on this topic called The Dodgers Move West by Brooklyn College professor Neil J. Sullivan. I read it about 6 or 7 years ago, and I found it fascinating.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Ferdinand. You just made an ally. It is nice to know that there is someone out there besides me who knows what the hell he is talking about. Moses screwed Brooklyn and that is all there is to it.
He screwed everyone
I do believe in small government and local control, but please understand this since you are too young to remember the Brooklyn Dodgers. The Dodgers and Brooklyn were synonomous. When you thought of one you thought of the other. The Dodgers were the central topic in the life of Brooklynites, and that I kid you not. Brooklyn was never the same again. Just as some old warhorse besides me on that. They will tell you that. Hell, the Dodgers came out here where I live but I have no use for them at all. To me the Dodgers were Brooklyn and no one else. I still cherish their memory.
Leo Durocher put it best: "Something went out of baseball when the Dodgers left Brooklyn, and neither all the king's horses nor all the king's men can ever put it back together again".
Brooklyn was the first example of a team that was making money moving because it found a place where it could make more money. The moves of the Braves to Milwaukee, the A's to K.C. and the Browns to Baltimore in the previous five seasons were different. Even the Giants' financial situation was far worse than the Dodgers when the teams relocated in 1957.
BTW -- The Minnesota Twins made money last year for owner Carl Pohlad, but instead of wanting to move the team unless he gets a state funded stadium, he'll just take the $240 million the owners are offering and shut the team down if he doesn't get what he wants, which in a way is even worse than what O'Malley did. The guy is 84 years old and is among the 20-25 richest people in America. You can't take it with you, but apparently ol' Carl is going to give it his best shot...
J---he is not going to be able to do it. No way can you take it with you when you go. But greed is a funny thing. Do you remember the movie---"It's a mad mad mad mad world"? They were greedy and all after the money. They got nothing but a large bill in the hospital and charges being brought against them for assorted damages and crimes. No Pohlad is only kidding himself. Someone else will be enjoying his money, not him.
I agree with Fred, don t be shocked we do agree on some things. I was a Yankee Fan in Flatbush, but the Dodgers were Brooklym, and I still oved going to Ebbets Field to root against the bums. I remember when I was 14, and on the Happy Felton Knot Hole gang and won. I was able to pick who I wanted to speak to the next day. The Reds were in town and my hereo was Fran Robinson, they would not let me , so I had to pick a Dodger, So it was Joe Pignatano the catcher, because he was a Brooklyn Boy
What did I tell you guys, eh? Bob and I are pals and he even agrees with me now and then, not often but sometimes. I do know when Bob went on that show and it was 1957, the last year of the Brooklyn Dodgers. That's because Pignatano came up that year as a rookie.
Piggy wound up with the Mets in 1962. Did you know he hit into a triple play in his final big league at bat?
You two actually agree that the Triplexes were second to none, which is beautiful. The train marking is another story.:-)
Just our politics are different. To him Fred Reagan was the second coming, to me Reagan was a grade B actor, Govonor and president
[to me Reagan was a grade B actor, Govonor and
president]
So he defeated the soviets and built up the armed forces to the point here we can win a war with very few American casualties but he was a grade B president. What would have to do to be a grade A president?
No trickle down economics.
Well, you can eliminate Clinton for one. Here is my list of the greatest Presidents.
1. ABRAHAM LINCOLN---hands down. No argument accepted or allowed.
2. Franklin D. Roosevelt
3. George Washington
4. Theodore Roosevelt
5. Thomas Jefferson
6. Harry S. Truman
7. Ronald Reagan
The worst Presidents are James Buchanan, Warren G. Harding, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter and Billy Boy.
Fred, I'm not one to start an argument, but... (oh heck yes I am, but what's the difference?)
Here's my list:
1. JEFFERSON DAVIS - absolutely, positively, no arguments from any damn Yankees permitted :-)
2. Thomas Jefferson
3. Harry Truman
4. George Washington
5. Theodore Roosevelt
And the worst:
Abraham Lincoln, John Kennedy, Franklin Roosevelt, Bill Clinton.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What was wrong with FDR? JFK never had a chance he was only in office 2 years 11 months
Oh, I could go on and on... the way he ran roughshod over the Constitution with his New Deal proposals (thank heavens for the Supreme Court), his womanizing (ditto for JFK), his turning a blind eye to the Holocaust... but I'll stop there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Name a perfect president, o yes Wasn t it Taylor or Harrison who caught pnunomia at his inuguration and died 30 days later
It was William Henry Harrison. Didn't wear a topcoat (I'm rough and I'm tough) and his inaugural speech was over 8,000 words long. Took him an hour and a half to deliver it. A month later he was gone.
Anon, you are a good guy so don't take this personally. YOU ARE NUTS!!!!!!!! How in hell can you put Lincoln in there with Clinton. And why the hell is FDR so bad? He was a great President. Oh well, I guess Sherman missed you on his waydown. Maybe a William T. clone will get you next time around. Chao!
Jefferson Davis???? He was never President of The United States. He was a treasonous traitor and an enemy of the United States, much the same way the Taliban leaders are now.
Sarge: Let's find out when Anon is coming up north and we'll ambush him and kick the hell out of him. Can you believe he actually likes Jefferson Davis. I have likened that traitor to what I would call white trash.
I'm in New Jersey now :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well congratuyaltion Anon. I always knew you had at least some class. Out of the South. Why the hell would anyone want to live in the South?
Why the hell would anyone want to live in the South?
Because it's the best place on earth, that's why. But my employer expects me to show up on occasion to collect my paycheck, and since for the last six years I've worked in New Jersey I spend much more time there than I do at home. So I have two houses, one at home in North Carolina (that I have owned for the past 20 years) and the one I bought four years ago in New Jersey when it became apparent that this "temporary" assignment was going to be anything but. New Jersey, though, is just a place where I happen to be at the moment; it will never truly be home. My wife, when her health permits, spends quite a bit of her time in North Carolina; she's been there for the past week, although I expect to see her back here within the next day or two. Even though she was born and raised in northern lower Michigan, North Carolina has become her home as well.
I suppose I should ask you why you haven't fled California. Last I heard it was getting ready to fall into the Pacific Ocean :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The item about your wife caught my attention. I hope she is not seriously ill. If so, my prayers are with you both. How can you live so far from where you work? Are you in sales? I guess your feelings for North Carolina is like mine for California. All in good fun, I hope. Take care and don't eat too many grits and turnup grees.
Thanks, Fred. My wife was very seriously ill last year and is still recuperating, but she should eventually get back in the groove. I'm a project manager for a major telecommunications firm; most of my team and essentially all of the management team above me is in New Jersey, so I really can't join the ranks of telecommuters, much as I would like to. As a result I'm in New Jersey almost all of the time... since we bought the house here four years ago I've only gotten home to North Carolina a couple of times a year. But our youngest is the only one still "at home" and he's now a sophomore in high school, here in New Jersey... our older son is in and out (mostly out) of college (living in our NC house at the moment), our younger daughter is in her second year at Georgetown Law (Washington, DC), and our older daughter (with her husband and our two grandsons) lives in Arizona, so everyone's scattered to the four winds.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good to hear you better half is on her way to a recovery. I don't know what I would do if my wife got real ill. I might not be as strong about it as you are. Give your misses my best wishes.
[Why the hell would anyone want to
live in the South? ]
This from someone who lives in smogvillie USA.
Not Smogsville, God's Country. Travel to the San Diego area, the Central Coast, the South Coast, Canyon Country. Absolutely beautiful. That's my Southern California.
Heh. "Smogville" to me means the Ted Turner Highway (85) in and around Hotlanta ... I can't fathom why ANYBODY would want to live there anymore. Hell, even Turner moved. :)
IMO, from pictures that Mr Glickman has posted, Singapore wins the "SMOGVILLE" award, hands down.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, same can be said for Honk Kong and Tokyo at times as well. But Hotlanta's got LA beat for smog and "local weather" hands down - I watch LA TV and Atlanta's TV off my bird bath regularly. I'd rather be in Kabul than Atlanta in the summer. :)
I have been to both Singapore and Hong Kong, and have never seen smog there. Humid yes, remember Singapore is surounded by water and most of Hong Kong is water side, also Singapore is 1 degree North of the Equator, so of course it is hot. Plus their polution laws are as strong as Californias. As to Smog, Try Bangkok, which is set in a humid valley, That is the smoggiest city inb SE Asia, Manila is a far 2nd
Never been to any of them, so I gladly take your word. NYC was too humid and too hot for my tastes. But man, Atlanta is one BUTT UGLY place to be in summer ... I'll take the Imperial Valley ANY day. Even Oxnard. :)
Here's a joke I heard after Reagan had intesinal surgery:
How do you address a letter to President Reagan?
Dear Mr. President; (semicolon)
Fred would love it,
I read "Nice Guys Finish Last" when it came out in 1975. You are a hell of a fan to remember that exact quote. Of course Steve, Leo was right.
When Leo became manager of the Cubs and the Mets became contenders in 1969, he became the enemy in New York. He ridiculed the Mets all season, and when Seaver & Company polished them off in September, the Shea crowd serenaded Leo with "Goodbye, Leo" to the tune of Good Night, Ladies from The Music Man. I didn't dislike him, though.
Leo had a passion for winning which was second to none. Being a product of the old school, he finally left baseball after the 1973 season when he felt he could no longer relate to the modern ballplayer.
To this day I believe Leo's managing of the 1954 New York Giants was the greatest job of managing I have ever seen. He had a catcher who hit 187, a first baseman who hit 251, a second baseman who hit 155, a left fielder who hit 266, and with the pitcher had over the half of his lineup that had season long slumps. His ptiching staff consisted of three quality starters, two good relief men and two fill ins. The other three hardly saw much action. Yet they won the World Series that year. No wonder Leo never won again. He used all his genius that year. It took all that for them wo win it all.
There is much more to this than that....It is evident O'Malley was floored by the offer given to him by Los Angeles. The politicians in Los Angeles did not have any problem in giving O'Malley the land at Chavez Ravine as only poor people lived on it and they owned the land.
O'Malley knew damn well that the City of NY did not own the land above the Atlantic Ave. depot of the LIRR and that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company would extract a pretty penny for it if it was legal in the first place. Massive court cases would have resulted. And in the end, O'Malley being the devil that he was, probably would have moved the Dodgers out of Brookyn anyway.
O'Malley isn't the only villain in this peace. Baseball then, as opposed to now, was supposed to be a matter of civic pride for the owners. Only if a team was losing money did its owners reluctantly leave their home towns.
The Brooklyn franchise was making money over heels. It was the biggest money maker in the National League during the 10 year period from 1947-1956 despite the fact that every Brooklyn home game was on free televison as were the 11 road games against theGiants telecast on the Giant television station as well as 2/3 of the remaining road games. Remember, this is 1956. Compare that to today.
The Dodgers were making money head over heel from the television rights, the advertising rights on their far flung radio network. But it wasn't enough for the greedy O'Malley.
But baseball had rules about the good of the game. If Judge Landis were still alive, he would have stepped in. But we had a do nothing Commissioner in Ford Frick who would do nothing that would jeopardize his ability to hang out at Toots Shorr's restaurant on his baseball expense account. And there was National League President Warren Giles who thought the officie of the National League President belonged in Cincinnati and when asked how he could allow New York to be without a National League team, blurted out, "Who needs New York?"
O'Malley, Frick and Giles are rotting in hell for what they did to the people of Brooklyn back in 1957 and nobody who lives in Brooklyn should ever forget this crime perpetrated on them by those pieces of garbage.
You mean the owner of a business did something to make a profit? That the way this country works. If you don't like move somewhere else.
No problem with what you said except that you seem to give Moses a free ride, pretty much what Rather, Brokaw and the others did for Clinton. Moses could have easily have pulled that off. O'Malley did want to stay in Brooklyn. He never gave Los Angeles a though until during the 1956 World Series when Councilman Hahn of LA approached him. That was two full seasons after O'Malley first warned New York he needed a new ballpark. They were being outdrawn by the Milwaukee Braves by over a milion people a year, and there was no draft then. A richer team could offer bigger bonuses and put the Dodgers in a second rate position with a few more years. Remember most of the Dodgers in the mid 60's were getting on in year.
I think you meant to say "in the mid-50s". By then, the Branch Rickey-built team was beginning to show age. Of course, Pee Wee Reese was one of Larry McPhail's acquisitions. IIRC McPhail bought an entire minor league franchise just to get him.
That is what I get for not proofreading my work. Yes, it was the mid 1950's.
Fred is getting old, try to think Fred, fred
There is much more to this than that....It is evident O'Malley was floored by the offer given to him by Los Angeles. The politicians in Los Angeles did not have any problem in giving O'Malley the land at Chavez Ravine as only poor people lived on it and they owned the land.
O'Malley knew damn well that the City of NY did not own the land above the Atlantic Ave. depot of the LIRR and that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company would extract a pretty penny for it if it was legal in the first place. Massive court cases would have resulted. And in the end, O'Malley being the devil that he was, probably would have moved the Dodgers out of Brookyn anyway.
O'Malley isn't the only villain in this peace. Baseball then, as opposed to now, was supposed to be a matter of civic pride for the owners. Only if a team was losing money did its owners reluctantly leave their home towns.
The Brooklyn franchise was making money over heels. It was the biggest money maker in the National League during the 10 year period from 1947-1956 despite the fact that every Brooklyn home game was on free televison as were the 11 road games against theGiants telecast on the Giant television station as well as 2/3 of the remaining road games. Remember, this is 1956. Compare that to today.
The Dodgers were making money head over heel from the television rights, the advertising rights on their far flung radio network. But it wasn't enough for the greedy O'Malley.
But baseball had rules about the good of the game. If Judge Landis were still alive, he would have stepped in. But we had a do nothing Commissioner in Ford Frick who would do nothing that would jeopardize his ability to hang out at Toots Shorr's restaurant on his baseball expense account. And there was National League President Warren Giles who thought the officie of the National League President belonged in Cincinnati and when asked how he could allow New York to be without a National League team, blurted out, "Who needs New York?"
O'Malley, Frick and Giles are rotting in hell for what they did to the people of Brooklyn back in 1957 and nobody who lives in Brooklyn should ever forget this crime perpetrated on them by those pieces of garbage.
I guess that's why it won the Pulitzer Prize. Its such a crappy book, right? >:(
If Homer Simpson can win the Pulitzer Prize, anybody can.
Robert Moses was a GIGANTIC CROOK, NO and I mean NO true rail advocate can say anything good about him. BTW, As another poster pointed out, that book won a Pulitzer Prize (WELL DESERVED)
The Power Broker is, in my opinion, the definitive history of Robert Moses' effect on NYC. Its also a great read - 1100 pages long and I've read it about 20 times already. Its awesome.
Which I precisely why I won't read it - it will put me in a very bad mood every night until I finish it.
Robert Moses was ALWAYS anti-public transit. Supposedly, the 2nd Av. subway was originally intended to be built by 1955, just before the 3rd Av. El was torn down in Manhattan. Robert Moses was at the height of his power at the time, and probably DID vote against it.
Bob Sklar
Has PATH ever run a direct Newark to Hoboken service (other than the current NWK-HOB-33RD round robin)? If not, why? Seems like a good service to me.
A complex question with many answers.
First, NWK/HOB/33RD is only the late night off-peak service - during the day and into the night there are three services - NWK/33RD, HOB/33RD, and JSQ/HOB.
Second, Hoboken currently hosts 2 services using 3 tracks, and adding a third service would cause problems - I often see all three tracks in use (usually with 33RD trains on 1 and 3, and a JSQ on 2).
Third (and this doesn't really apply any more), remember that the Hudson & Manhattan (PATH's predecessor) was very friendly with the various railroads (after an initial 1874 lawsuit to halt construction because the H&M would compete with the railroad's ferry operation). At the time, Penn Station (Newark) and DLW (Hoboken) were different railroads. H&M had shared equipment and trackage rights with the PRR for their above-ground operation. That is presumably why the H&M never operated NWK/33RD in the past - since you could stay on a PRR train to Penn Station NYC, this would have been seen as siphoning PRR's riders.
H&M was owned OUTRIGHT for many yearsby the PRR, so NWK-33rd would have been competition. Also at one time a lot of trains (PRR) terminated just above Exchange Place so it was a good transfer. Pavonia until the Mid 50s was called Erie, because the Erie Terminated there. H&M made connections there. It seems the only Jersey City/Hoboken station that the H&M did not connect with was the CNJ/B&O/Reading. Also there was car ferries from the NJ Train Stations to manhatten.
Yes, but there was no direct NWK service to Erie/Pavonia, either. The H&M saw itself as a way for riders on the various NJ rail lines to get to Manhattan, a view that the PRR was quite happy with.
Regarding CRRNJ, they had drawings as early as 1905 showing the route they would take to get there, and they filed same with the State of NJ, along with the required construction deposit. See these four scans for details:
One
Two
Three
Four
This is what the bellmouths at the west end of Grove Street are for - except that the eastbound one is now power equipment behind a plywood(!) false wall, and the westbound one has a signal shed in it.
An alternate plan was to branch off of G and H just before they meet J and K. You can see an artifact of this in H, where there is a brief section of iron lining east of the junction. That was because the unbuilt tunnel to CRRNJ would have crossed it there and added strength was needed. There are similar segments of the unbuilt Hudson Terminal/Erie line underneath E and F (in the general area of the ejector pumps on the Manhattan side - I can provide exact station numbers for this if anybody cares).
The H&M shared the ROW with the Pennsy main line between Newark-ish and Harrisson, and then closely followed the local tracks to Exchange Place.
Portions of the shared line were owned by Pennsy; both RRs had trackage rights.
Portions of the H&M rolling stock were owned by Pennsy. I'm not sure how the revenue was split up.
However, at no time did the Pennsylvania Railroad own the H&M outright.
H&M had plans to go to the CNJ terminal in what's now Liberty State Park, and then continue on CNJ trackage to Bayonne (the route of the current HBLR). Got nowhere near even the surveying stage. Didn't hear of any plans to head north from Hoboken, though.
I ll have to check on that in my book H&M REvisited.
I ll have to check on that in my book H&M REvisited.
What book is that? Still in print? Can you give me title, author? Thanks!
Paul Carleton wrote The Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Revisited, published 1990 by D. Carleton Railbooks. I believe it is out of print but I've seen a copy or two at train shows, especially the traction-oriented ones; also, there's a copy currently listed at abebooks.com for $85 (a bit steep, IMHO - $50 seems more reasonable to me).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My reference was the book "Rails under the mighty hudson" which by some freak chance my local library had.
The PRR I found did not out right own the H&M, had a WORKING RELATIONSHIP. But owned H&M Equipment and right of way and at one time a small minority of the stock
Attention subtalkers in Philly, South Jersey and northern Delaware:
Apparently channel 12 is having another begathon. "Secrets Beneath the Streets" came on at 8 o'clock and will be rerun at 9:30. I found it at 8:02 and it started under the Ben Franklin bridge, then went under Broad Street and joined the overnight workers who work in the BSS during the overnight hiatus.
Gotta get back before the begging ends and the program comes back on.
Glad to hear we aren't the only ones having to deal with the "begging" on certain television channels, way out here in Souterhn California. I made MY donation to the channel -- Ipaid my cable TV bill!!!
>>> I made MY donation to the channel -- Ipaid my cable TV bill!!! <<<
None of the money you pay for cable goes to PBS stations.
Tom
The "under the Ben Franklin Bridge" segmentmentioned earlier included an examination of one of the cable anchorages on the Camden side, including under water, and the huge never-used trolley barn under Franklin Square in Philly.
Segments after the first begging break included a walk in a 20x24 foot sewer under the Broad Street Subway,
- the famous early 19th century Water Works (which used stationary steam engines to lift water from the Schuylkill to the reservoir),
- a PECO substation 4 stories below Independence Mall,
- under the Swann Fountain in Logan Circle,
- a gold and silver depository somewhere under Wilmington,
- fallout shelter supplies stored since 1960 in a huge concourse next to the BSS north of City Hall, and
- the basement under City Hall.
Very interesting program for those of us with ties to Philly.
I am still upset that I have been trapped at school both times it aired. Are your perhaps making a video tape of this? BTW when is the Dec. NRHS meeting? I need to renew my membershippe. What did they do at last nite's meeting?
Very interesting program even if you don't have ties to Philly. (Huge never used trolley barn ... wow.)
Is there an accompanying web site that has a transcript or pictures? (Some PBS programs have this, some don't).
--Mark
http://www.whyy.org/tv12/secrets/index.html
This was originally supposed to air on 9/11 but other events caused it to be rescheduled. It will probably be on again in December. I'll check my 'Applause' magazine (Ch. 12's viewer guide) and report back if it is.
It was very interesting at the start but the end kind of got less exciting. It did go into great detail on the way the direct-fixation tracks on Broad St were being replaced (the epoxy anchor cored into the concrete roadbed, etc).
I checked Ch. 12's schedule for December and, unfortunately, this show is not scheduled for any time during the month. I'm sure it will get replayed sometime. It was worth the watch. Of course, you could always buy a copy of the tape from WHYY (I think it was worth a $120 pledge)...
Good news! WHYY is going to rebroadcast 'Secrets Beneath the Streets' Sun 12/9 at 7 PM. Apparently there was enough clamor to get it back on once again. In case you missed it the first time, it is quite informative.
what is WHYY? channel 12, thats lifetime in NYC!
WHYY is Phila's PBS station. Whether it gets broadcast in NYC, I don't know, but I doubt it since its coverage area is the Phila area and Delaware.
WHYY is going to rebroadcast 'Secrets Beneath the Streets' Sun 12/9 at 7 PM.
Bobw-
"Applause" lists "members favorites" from 7 to 11 PM on Sunday. Do you know that 'Secrets Beneath the Streets' will be shown at 7 PM, or just that it will be shown during the 7 to 11 time period?
Bobv
The TV listing in the Courier-Post shows 'Secrets Beneath the Streets' from 7 to 8:30 PM Sunday Dec 9. This will include a half hour of begging.
Heard on 1010 WINS a little while ago:
"... the V train will be using the new 63rd Street connector..."
They always get it wrong.
Fox 5 showed that too on the illustration of the map keeping the E and F where it is at.
Here's what the Associated Press said about the change:
NEW YORK (AP) -- Gov. George Pataki joined Metropolitan Transportation Authority officials Tuesday to announce the completion of the new V subway line between Manhattan and Queens.
The new line should ease overcrowding on the E and F lines by increasing weekday service between Manhattan and Queens by 20 percent, Pataki said.
The V line will take advantage of a newly completed $645 million 63rd Street connection that allows Queens Boulevard subway lines to link up to the existing East River tunnel at 63rd Street.
"With the opening of the 63rd Street connector and the new V train, things will get dramatically better for Queens commuters," Pataki said.
MTA Chairman Peter Kalikow said the new subway line and the 63rd Street link took 71/2 years to build.
"We thank the people of Queens who endured the difficulties of a massive construction project in their community for their patience and cooperation and I congratulate everyone involved in the construction of this vital piece of transportation infrastructure," Kalikow said.
The V line will provide local service between Forest Hills-71st Avenue in Queens and the Second Avenue station on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. It will start running Dec. 16 and will operate weekdays from 6 a.m. until midnight.
(So blame the AP)
This report would tend to make one beleive that an entire line from Second Ave in Manhattan to 71st St in Queens was built. One could also think that the "V" trains are new "rolling stock' as well.
A short connection between existing lines , shifting and reallocation of rolling stock, and a pot full track and signal work!
Presto! Viola! A NEW LINE!
avid
Channel 5 also had the V going via 63rd street on their map.
I heard it. They didn't actually say the (V) would use the 63rd Street connector, just that it would take advantage of it. That is technically true, even if it's misleading.
:-) Andrew
John Montone must be having a field day talking to his buddy, the Mid-east cabdriver.
The story on the WCBS Newsradio-880 Web site also has it wrong.
I called the station and explained the error (for those of you who don't know, I work there). It turns out that the press release says that the new V is "made possible" by the opening of the 63rd Street connector. Whoever wrote the story from the press release translated that into the V running through the 63rd Street connector. The producer promised me he'll see that the story is corrected both on the air and on the Web site.
BTW, less than five minutes later, WCBS had fixed their Web site report.
It turns out that the Associated Press got it wrong, too. That seems to be the root of the radio stations' errors. The WCBS Web site has the AP report verbaitm.
And the NY1 website has V service starting on Sunday 16 December.
The article also claims that the E will make four stops in Queens. By my count it makes a minimum of eight.
David, I believe thay mean THE FOUR STOPS that the V will serve.
which is also wrong
Continental, Roosevelt, Queens Plaza, 23/Ely - 4 stops that they share.
oh
Has the quality of life declined in the city this year? Some newspapers and TV news are talking about the return of squeege men and street hawkers. I have not noticed any increase in street hawkers or beggars in the subway (it seems there is less begging on the subway now than a year ago). Also some are claiming crime is up as well. Hopefully these rumors are false.
In the eighties, coming out of the Lincoln Tunnel onto Dyer Ave. and then making the right onto 40th Street, you used to be inudated with the squeege bums (actually, it was often a guy simply wielding a dirty , old, dry rag). I remember my dad being hit in the face by a squeege when he tried to drive ahead while the nasty old vagrant was attempting to extort some coinage from him. (It was summer and our car had no A/C, so the windows were open.) I've driven that same route myself in the nineties and haven't seen any of them and I couldn't be happier about that.
Let's pray this recession is a short one.
It's not the recession, the cops are 'too busy' with the WTC and they can all smell that Rudy's time is over.
Yes,
"Guiliani Time" is just about done. While I must compliment the man on his post 9/11 efforts, his overall term has been quite hurtful. If any one saw the show "Philly" last nite (Tues 11/27), a cop told Kim Delany's character, "So what if he didn't do this crime, he's done a dozen others that he was never caught for and this evens things up, don't get involved". I think this is somewhat typical of the attitude of far too many cops during the Guiliani years. I'm no fan of the police in general, but I also realize they are in general good people (some say the bad apples are 1%, I'd say the bad apples are closer to 15% - but in a position of trust such as a police officer, that figure is way too high; and by bad apples, I don't mean bribe takers, I mean the ones who see themselves as the absolute arbiters of justice) who more often than most would like to admit, tend to think they know it all.
A scary reaction to the quote form Philly, my roomate said, "Absolutely, he did a lot of other crimes, so he should take the fall for this". When I asked him why he felt that way, he said, the "cop said so". I'm very scaried that in the wake of 9/11 too many people will adopt that attitude as we begin military tribunals, eves dropping on attorney/client conversations and general suspention of the bill of rights. But the right wing has been chipping away at the 4th Amendment for so long, maybe no one will notice.
Comments anyone???????????
Actually more Blacks were killed by police when there was a Black mayor then under Rudy.
You may be too young to remember what Penn Station and the 34th and sixth underpass was like under Dinko.
Could he have been a bit warmer as a person, yes. Let's not go backwards. Beating the city's first Black mayor is a crime some will never forgive him for.
"Guiliani Time" is from a movie by a person that will not even say the guys name or admit he is the mayor of the city he lives in.
I'm in my forties and remember the period you're refering too. I'm not saying somethings haven't gotten better, but at what price and to who's credit. Crime started to come down under Dinkins (and Ray Kelly), pushed in no small part by the overall national economic upswing under Bill Clinton (he had the guts to end the Reagan era tax give aways to the super rich and actually ask them to pay an extra 1 or 2% of thier blotted incomes to help eleminate the national deficeit.) Even Bratton, the man behind most of Rudy's success with the police felt the shock actions he took were just that, needed for a short period and then he favored backing off and building ties with community leaders (yes, even meet with those he didn't fully agree with, unlike Rudy who has let his personal dislike of Rev Sharpton, who no one can deny is a community leader, keep him from meeting with this influential man for 8 years). I don't think people belong in jail for drinking a beer in public or smoking (or just possesing) one or two joints. It is a documented fact that police misconduct has gone up, check the CCRB complaint stats, which Rudy and Police Commisionors routinely ignored, as well as the cases where the CCRB documented cases of police misconduct. Such cases often were given Zero disipline even if misconduct was documented.
Where there problems that Rudy helped improve? Yes! Was he as totally completely responsibly for absoutely everything positive that happend east of the Mississippi (or at least the Hudson)since 1/1/93, I don't think so. Why do so many people have such a problem admitting that crime began dropping under Dinkins, remember he and Ray Kelly began the Safe Streets/Safe City program.
Actually I don't begrudge Dinko the credit for starting that program BUT the Quality of Life initiatives were strictly a Guilaini thing and that is part of the reason crime went down too. Jumping the fare would get you a pat down not just a ticket and lots of guns and then woutstanding warrants came to light. As for the beer why give someone a ticket if you don't verify their ID. People would drink and drive without any ID and the cops would trust you to say who you were, what nonsense.
As for the CCRB, more people just complained. Visits to the hospital and morgue are way down under G. Actually it was Anemone and the Irish guy that looked 200 years old that got canned that were the real key figures in the last 8 years by overhaulling the discipline. Most people don't understand that getting a job at HQ was not a reward ofr bad behavior it was the put all the bad apples in one spot so we can watch them philosophy. Under the weak one bad cops just got moved to a different precinct until they did their 20. Now they get thrown out. They even changed the pension system to discourage cops with charges from fighting.
Also you are crediting me with opinions anbout the G I do not have.
As for the CCRB, more people just complained. Visits to the hospital and morgue are way down under G.
Yeah, but that point has nothing to do with Piggo's point, which is that "it is a documented fact that police misconduct has gone up, check the CCRB complaint stats, which Rudy and Police Commisionors routinely ignored, as well as the cases where the CCRB documented cases of police misconduct. Such cases often were given Zero disipline even if misconduct was documented."
> "it is a documented fact that police misconduct has gone up, check >the CCRB complaint stats
NO, it is a documented fact that COMPLAINTS went up. Most people don't complain and in fact they used to discourage people from complaining (just like the TA where people never would bang stuff in and now lots of people do) so it is no way to prove this.
NO, it is a documented fact that COMPLAINTS went up. Most people don't complain and in fact they used to discourage people from complaining
Well, with respect, it is HIGHLY unlikely that there are more than a handful of people who submit false complaints. It's a daunting, scary, and time-consuming process to complain to the CCRB that a cop has done something bad to you. A rise in complaints is a rough indicator of increased police arrogance ... and it's largely directed at young non-white men. Some of it may be justified, some of it clearly isn't.
The majority of cops are good people, trying to do a tough job. But to assume or pretend that ALL of them are good is as silly as assuming that all SubTalk posters have the same agenda.
Truth is probably somewhere between your POV and mine. I just worry that in the current rush to laud Giuliani and the FDNY and NYPD heroes of 9/11, the public will forget that a small fraction of cops mistreat the citizens who rely on them for protection. And a strong and accessible and trusted CCRB is vital to protect our American way of life. That has NOT changed with 9/11.
End of non-transit rant.
>Well, with respect, it is HIGHLY unlikely that there are more than a >handful of people who submit false complaints.
I did not say that either, you confuse me with a Sean Hannity fan.
Like here more people would complain if they think it would go anywhere. More complaints in a weird way is a sign of things getting better.
>End of non-transit rant.
B4 we get the boot.
>>> Comments anyone??????????? <<<
Wrong forum.
Tom
Well on the No.1 Line on my last trip a get a lot on panhandlers. I have notice they are getting more agressive. I think where seeing some of these crazy ones from the E Line coming over as well.
The #1 has been the "Homeless Express" for years. I've even given most of them nicknames based on their scams.
The NY times maazine had a story from years ago profiling all the poor souls Rudy chased out of the subway along with those thought bubble ads. The writer was expecting to find all this human suffering being caused almost everyone had a place to live and were on drugs.
I am curious, what is the exact horn signal that a driver is required to sound when a train is ordered to skip a station?
(Like what happens frequently on the F train from Jay to W 4)
I ask because lately, when I see this happen, the drivers do different things.
On some trains, I hear the driver give two short blasts multiple times through the station. Others, two loud blasts before entering the station and just after leaving the station.
On one trip the conductor sped through York doing a good 30+ MPH, blasting one complete warning signal used by the railroads, LONG-LONG-SHORT-LONG.
LONG-LONG-SHORT-LONG are standard grade crossings. I think 2 beeps is the proscribed warning when entering a station and not stopping, maybe some of our TO can tell us
Our LRVs do the long-long-short-long routine at both of the high-speed grade crossings on the original light rail route.
From recollection, it is repeated 2 shorts. I also recall the maximum allowable speed to be 25MPH. But I might misremember both of these, and/or the rules might have changed. And I'm not where I can easily check the rulebook.
I suspect there are some train crews that came over recently from railroads - I've had a couple conductors claim that everything is a "station stop", and I've also run into some T/O's who seem to think that a grade crossing warning (your L-L-S-L) is appropriate for every occasion 8-)
For a true spectacle, you need to see a T/O forget that there's a station there at all and blow past it with no warning at full speed (though these days "full speed" is pretty wimpy). Years ago I got to see this from the railfan window at Union Square, of all places. The expressions on the platform were priceless as they realized "hey, this train isn't going to stop!". Of course, this is a major safety problem and shouldn't be encouraged.
Was that particular train supposed to stop at Union Square? If it was, that T/O must have thought, oohhhhhh shit.
What about that memorable Brighton Super Express?
The NX? It used the Sea Beach express tracks.
actually when bypassing stations, ur supposed to full blast into station blow horn 2 times, slow down to make sure ur train does no greater than 15mph when leaving station and blow horn again 2 times. but the moral of the story is 15mph when bypassing stations!
Enter the station at regular speed and sound the horn 2x. Sound the horn an additional 2x as you leave the station. Do not exceed 15 MPH at the point where you pass the leaving signal so not to compromise the integrity (safety) of the signal system.
Thas a succession of short blasts, whatever they meant, I would consider 4 toots entering and leaving. I heard a rumor two years back that the TA was thinking of speeding up those leaving stations to 35 MPH on those locals, but that seems to have died.
Why or how would you compromise the integrity of the signal system by exceeding 15 MPH at the leaving signal?
The signals are a fixed block system designed with certain assumptions built in. Such as, trains will accelerate from a stop when leaving stations, the rate of acceleration, and the expected speed of the train.
In other words the system was not designed for trains bypassing stations and leaving at high speeds 40+ MPH.
In my own personal obsevation, I would say that it is possible at certain locations in the system, for there to be a collision if the 15MPH rule is not followed. It would be most likley to happen in the following circumstance:
If a train operator were to leave a station at the highest speed attainable for the area, under a Caution signal(Yellow aspect), and took no action to slow or stop the train, it would be tripped and placed in emergency by the Stop signal protecting the train ahead. It is possible that the train would not stop before impact with his leader.
This is my own understanding and personal observatons of the signal system based on my experience as a train operator. I welcome all constructive discussion, as I am just as interested in learning, as I am at offering a possible answer.
Michael
The old rule was a series of short blasts sounded continously
as the train passed the station, speed limited to 15 MPH.
The more recent rule (a few years ago) is two shorts entering,
two shorts leaving, 15 MPH leaving the station. It is permissible
to enter the station at normal speed and then slow down as if
to make a station stop, pass the marker at 15 MPH and then resume once
the lead car is beyond the signal. That last part is basically
RTO paranoia.
The LLSL sequence is not a valid whistle signal under NYCT rules.
The other day, an express train was sent to run express on the local from 71/Continental to Roosevelt. He slowed to about 20 at each stop, with one exception: 63rd drive. There is a slight downgrade on entering the station and rediculous timers on the express tracks there, but not the local tracks. He took this opportunity to see what an untimed run through the station would get. Result: 52 M/H. Yes, long-long/short-long.
52mph through a station where there a people waiting who think that the train is going to stop. Someone could have easily been killed or something. Too bad there was no TSS around, the T/O should have had to taken a little vacation for that one. You're supposed to slow to 15mph until you pass the signal beyond the station. Sounds pretty crazy to me.
Shawn
what about the LIRR when it passes the forest hills at 50 MPH?
Im-material! NYCT and LIRR have a different set of rules in regard to bypassing stations.
If I were a TSS, generally I would try not to be picky. However in this situation if I were one, and observed this blatant disregard for safety and operational procedeures, I would take that t/o out of service immediately, take over operation of the train. have control center find me another TSS or board t/o to relieve me down the line, and take this guys ass downtown in a heartbeat.
Relating to my earlier HORN post, is the horn used for the J/Z skip stop services, and when the Z passes Bowery?
Both the J and the Z stop at the Bowery.
Back when the 9 was running, my experience was that the horn was most often not used.
It was used on the 1/9 skip-stop. I have never ridden the J or Z during rush hour and never through Bowery so I don't know but I would assume so.
I was at Costco this afternoon in Yonkers and I spotted a book on the World Trade Center so, I decided to take a copy to the register and buy it. The book is titled "The World Trade Center" A Tribute by Bill Harris. I think that everyone who is interested should buy a copy for themselves.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm sure one of my fellow Astorians has posted this already, but all traces of Beebe Tower are now history. It had been a while since I had access to an R-32 front window so I could check it out. Last I checked sometime before the 9/11 equipment shuffle, there were still remnants of the support pillar in place, but now everything is gone-zo.
-KP
??? Bebe tower?
Any pictures...?
> ??? Bebe tower?
Yeah, what is that?
- Lyle Goldman
On the Astoria line, just south of 39th (Beebe) Avenue.
Can HBLR riders, or former HBLR riders, attest to the effects of the closing of the Exchange Place-WTC PATH connection on the ridership, revenue, and service on HBLR? I'm sure this was discussed earlier at length, but how is it now? Has increased ferry service(?) kept up HBLR ridership?
Immediately after -- huge increase in ridership, drop in revenue because they weren't inspecting tickets. Service frequency was nominally increased but sometimes worsened because of the masses of people during the rush. Exchange Place and Newport were dangerously overcrowded at times.
This was discussed in the TSTC's newsletter
www.tstc.org
They haven't said anything about the effect of the ferries, nor whether the ridership/revenue/service is the same or different.
7546-50 and 7566-70 are confirmed to be on the property and are functioning. They were sighted earlier in the evening, leaving Jackson Av heading southbound, presumably to the Pelham Line.
We're on our way to 7610, the Kawasaki Lot is seeing less R-142As.....
-Stef
What about the option order?
Who can be sure at this time, but they were supposed to be working on the R-143 Order.
-Stef
Saw that train around 1415pm this afternoon at Simpson St. heading to E.180th St Yard or 239th St Yard.
Peace
David J.
It's in storage outside the barn at East 180th Street. They are not ready for the 6 Line just yet....
-STEF
It looks like that train is in movement now. It sported #6 signage this evening, had a conductor, and didn't have testing - not in service signs taped to the windows. This may in fact be the first night of service for them. Anyone who sees them report back here.
-Stef
Guess the R142A's has you all caught up! What will you post AFTER all of the cars have been delivered?
Why should that concern you? It's not like you give a flying fig about this stuff. Don't worry about it. Lest I forget, you told me to get my facts straight.
At least there are some more mature types that are interested. Don't look for a confrontation with me because you'll lose.
-Stef
Don't look for a confrontation with me because you'll lose.
What? Just because you know more about R142(A)'s than I do?
There's more to the world than just trains.
[There's more to the world than just trains.]
of cource there is however this board is about trains.
There's a lot more than just trains. Don't be such a snob, little boy.
-Stef
[What will you post AFTER all of the cars have been delivered?]
Well he could post bigoted comments like you do.
True. I could reduce him to size when I get through with him.
-Stef
Ok children, lets behave like good little boys now. Remember how last time an argument started, and now we end up losing this board when dave goes on vacation, and he even threatened to take this board away permanently.
Let me put in my two cents worth: I for one appreciate how Stef keeps up with the R142 and R142A deliveries. Pete, if you get bored with those posts since there are frequent updates, I don't see anyone forcing you to look at them. 'nuff said. -Nick
I know I'm not the 'Pete' who gets bored with Stefs updates...what he posts gives me an idea of what I'm facing the next day. Peter
Why does everybody view my question as if it were made to irritate someone?
And my posts are not bigoted, like someone else said in this thread.
I've asked a lot of questions, and my past experiences on the Subway lately, and got helpful answers.
I don't know what's so hard about a question that asks what someone will do after delivery updates will be fulfilled.
[Why does everybody view my question as if it were made to irritate someone?]
Because whether are not you are trying to you sound like a complete ass hole.
There is Single Track Operation between Jackson Av and 149th St Grand Concourse, nights, through December 2nd.
The southbound platform at 3rd Avenue-149th Street is closed.
Southbound 2 comes into Jackson Av, Train Operator dumps. A Second T/O comes aboard and takes the train north and pulls it into the middle at Prospect Av. At Prospect middle, the T/O on the south end charges up and head south. T/O will wrong rail from Track M to the Northbound Local Track. On your way, key by two automatics with Dispatcher Ok, and stop at the homeball and pick up a baton. Homeball does not have a line up for the northbound track, necessitating the need for the baton and establishing the direction of traffic. Once the train gets to 149th Street-GC, baton is dropped.
This is the first time, I've witnessed reverse movements with the R-142s. The train comes in and goes out pretty quickly from Jackson Av, it just a matter of waiting for the Northbound Train to come through, while the Southbound Douce is waiting in the middle.
Does a GO such as this have an advantage over running the train straight down the middle from another location?
Customers must often ask when the train travels in the opposite direction, "where the f*ck is this train going?" Does anyone understand the Crew's announcements? Inquiring minds want to know...
-Stef
For my RTO Friends:
This qualifies as a Station Switching Job and a Relay, No?
-Stef
Relays
There are normally about 3 relay T/O's assigned.
The assignments are listed as "G.O. road jobs", though it's just for switching purposes. Listed duties are simply listed as WAA (work as assigned).
It's been a while since I was there, but I'm pretty sure that the homeball in question (M track at south end of Jackson) can produce a line-up for the northbound local. The baton is necessary because the train will be operating wrong-rail beyond the bounds of the interlocking - it is used to give the train the authority to be there. Upon arrival at 149 St, the baton is relinquished and will be given to the next northbound train so it can justify its presence in the single track area.
Due to the current signal work between 149 St and E.180, it is possible that the nearest place to put a train onto M Track southbound is north of E.180 St (where it would have to deal with the Dyre Shuttle). With 20 minute headways, this would cause remarkable travel delays for someone at Jackson wishing to go to Manhattan.
If you really want to see confusion, you needed to see the faces when a southbound Deuce would loop South Ferry, arrive at Wall St northbound and then pull out southbound to continue to Brooklyn. People would now find themselves at the wrong end of the station when they got off and wonder why.
I saw those wonderful pics that Trevor took of the M-7. I am sure the LIRR customers can look forward to them. I was wondering if there are any plans to get new trains on the New Haven Line for Metro-North anytime soon. I realize that bi-levels won't run there cuz they are too tall for the low bridges that are above the tracks, but I beleive that the New Haven Line has gone the longest without getting new trains, cuz I've seen new ones on the Harlem and Hudson lines over the past few years, and the last delievery the NH line got was the M-6s in 1993 and 1994. Any chance that I'll see an "M-7 like" train with a red stripe and pantograph in the near future? -Nick
There may be some M-7 type cars for the Hudson and Harlem divisions in the works.
As far as the New Haven division, the problem is that Connecticut (in its infinite wisdom) has deferred MU purchases for several years. The only capital budget item to date is to rehab the M-2 cars (to extend their life to 2012 or so). Extra cars were in the proposed budget for next year, but with the massive deficit, don't hold your breath!
Metro North will see 110 of the M-7 Class Cars!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Again, that is the Hudson/Harlem. None yet for the New Haven line.
Uggh..looks like I'll be looking at beautiful new cars on OTHER LINES once again!! :-( But thanks anyways for the info. -Nick
Remember, the New Haven cars require the dual power supply, which makes them more expensive and an entirely separate order to place.
Yep, that is true. There are only so many times those trains can be rebuilt though, and lots of times they are not up to speed in the most necessary situations, like the electric shoe disaster during the blizzard of 1996. -Nick
That should do in the 1100's, and about 50 of the worst M-1's ?
How many M-7's are there going to be ?
The capital budget says they will replace all the 1100's and all the M-1 units.
Well,
MN has 198 M-1s (80 with LI's 620, then 98 with LI's 152).
Also, MN's had a GOH,
So, I don't believe it.
The Pullman Standard ACMU-1100s will not be going anywhere for a while. The 110 M-7 Class MUs slated for MNRR will purely be for M-1 disposal.
I talked to a Operations Planning head during the Open House and the word is that the ACMUs will be around a few more years as they are more reliable than the M-1 and M-3s.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
On what lines do they run? Do they have railfan windows? Were not they the NYC 4700 series cars? I have been wanting to ride one for the longest time.
The ACMUs mainly run on the Harlem line with a few stragglers to the Hudson Line. Your best bet is to catch one during the AM or PM rush times. As for a railfan window, its been a while since I've been on one so I can't remember
I don't know about these NYC 4700 cars, SO I can't tell ya!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
IIRC, the ACMUs were the last ordered cars by the NY Central. BTW, they're in great shape. Crews get squeemish about them, and they die above 50mph, though.
They are pretty much realatives to the LIRR Zip cars.
LAIR Zip cars? Why are the crews squeamish? 50 mph?
The LIRR "Zip" (World's Fair, 1963) cars were really a different species, although Pullman-Standard. The MP-75's were Westinghouse and had a design speed of 105 MPH, which they once did on a test run without governors, and did trainline with the MP-54's. They were all out of electric service by October 1973 with all other conventional MU's. With a complicated breaking system (air, dynamic, regenerative, and one other), the LIRR crews and shop people didn't like them.
The NYC cars were GE, compatible only with the 1000's (St. Louis) of 1950, not their pre-war cars.
Could the 1100's and the MP-75 run in multiple is anyone's guess, or for that matter, the ancient NYC cars with MP-54's.
I think the NH Washboards were more like the LIRR cars than NYC cars.
Not only did their interiors look like MP-72's, but they were Westinghouse as well with a similar "elevator" control stand.
Tha's not the anecdotal infor I have heard. The ACMU's have an MDBF below 10,000 miles and tend to break if pushed too fast. The M-1's have an MDBF of 60,000, (triple the LIRR's).
You absolutely can not rate MNRR to LIRR, you are talking about two different operations and maintaining styles. LIRR is subpar in a lot of spots.
We will see, things change, but I'm going on what I heard in October from the Operations Planning Head.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
ww.transitalk.com
The LIRR units never got a GOH. That is on top of crappy maintenance.
I think it's a real tragedy. A Budd car ought to be good for 40 years.
I thought LIRR units did get GOHed, and that was when the stripe was removed.
Nope. That was simply a stripe removal. The have gotton little overhauls over the years, which was the manufacturers recomendation every 5 years, but they didn't get their first till they were 15.
They should build new cars that are like the ACMU-1100 cars but with some refinements. The doors should open and close automatically They should have the reversible seats just like the 1100 series ACMUs that are very comfortable. They should also have the high ceilings like the ACMU-1100s that makes them feel so spacious inside. They should also be as quiet inside as the ACMU-1100s. In my own opinion the ACMU-1100s were that best cars than ever ran on what is now Metro-North.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey good luck ever seeing a piece of equipment made today that will ever match the reliability of the 1100s or any railcar or equipment made in the past. Like I have stated many times previously, NOTHING IN THIS DAY AND AGE IS BUILT TO LAST!! Nothing is designed today for the long run. If the M-7 lives half as long as the 1100s, that will be a miracle, same goes for R142s lasting as long as the Redbirds, or R143s lasting as long as the R-32s. Nothing lasts in this day and age....reliability and longevity takes a back seat to cost cutting in this day and age unfortunately.
The short life of the M7/R142/3 is a GOOD thing. Why? Because the sooner they kick the bucket, the sooner we can get our railfan window back :)
Oh no doubt I want the window back!!!
Well I really hate to be the bearer of bad news. Teehee....But the R-142 and R-143 class cars are designed to live past 40 years old. Secondly, I believe that once we get past the technical issues, these cars will give us great long service, with little or no problems. Like ANYTHING new, you have to work the bugs out. If many of you remember the R-62As weren't all that when the first arrived on the property, now look at them, one of the cars with the longest MDBF.
Same thing for the M-7. I just don't see why everyone is stuck on not giving things a chance to prove themselves. A year is not enough time to get a railcar to prove itself.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Oh oh oh well and how did you come to the conclusion that R142s have a fourty year lifespan? If you strip out the electronics and air conditioning and fix the braking problems, I might agree. CI Peter
Like I said the cars are still new and the bugs are being worked again, which leads RIGHT back to what I said, the cars have been in service for a year or less, the is not enough time to say something won't last or the work the bugs out of anything! Especially a Rail car.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Well think of this maybe if things were not so reliant on computers, chips and processors that need all this fancy programming and software to run maybe things will be reliable, or even expect to last long and operate reliably. I mean Redbirds, ACMU 100s, R-32s and older equipment weren't built or reliant on all the fancy computer softwares and programming, and the parts they were overhauled and upgraded with aren't all built up with chips and programming, and look how long they all last. The R-110A and R-110B had their bugs, had the bugs removed only to have the same bugs like the constant computer problems keep coming back, then which over the several years in service CONSTANTLY was having problems, many of which resulted in their many yanks from passenger service. As advanced as they were, and all the time the bugs were worked out, the constant amd same problems plagued the trains over and over again. They were, as I said before, and said before about all new tech equipment, NOT BUILT TO LAST!! Too much new tech, not enough planning for the service needs, especially those of a 24 hour a day transit system.
Ok Whatever! You have your beliefs and I have mines. We'll see in 30-40 years which are still in service. All I have to say is we're living in different times and computers is the deal now NOT analog.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
After the repair costs to the manufacuter cost 20X the cost of the car and it can't be repaired on MTA property.
Also with all these elecronics the manufacturer can hold the MTA hostage by not giving the software required (no driving-in-rain program on R-142s), information how to fix, expensive parts, no repair information (everything has to be sent to them to be repaired), no easy repair parts, nothings interchangable (locked in manufacuter), could refuse to create bug fixes then MTA reverse enginneers and then manufacuter sues for reverse engineering and infringment of copyright and likes. Alos remember that they go bankrupt and whoses going to repair them and have parts. Big flatcars (coaches) thats what I see.
If they were willing to any railcar manufacturer could build a car that can last as long as an 1100 series ACMU, an R-32 subway car, an IRT Low-V, a BMT "Standard" for that matter. It might cost more to build something that will last but, it is cheaper in the long run.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm not sure about building new cars based on the 1100s but I'll agree that they provide an extremely pleasant if not sureal ride. The interior is one long space uncluttered by partitioning or doors with high levels of ambient lighting and row upon row upon row of bus style seating. The noise levels are so low that one has the impression of being in a regular passenger car being pushed by a locomotive way at the back. They do have 'railfan windows'. I enjoyed using these on my commutes on the Hudson line. Incidentlally on arrival at GCT those in the front car may exit through the drivers compartment - never seen that before!
The uncluttered interior is one of the reasons that I like the 1100 series ACMUs.I think that new cars should be built using the 1100 series ACMUs as a basis for design. They are much more comfortable than the M-1s and the M-3s.
#3 West End Jeff
If these are so nice, can't they be sent to S.I.R.T. to spring the R44s for the car shortage in the "B" division?
This would provide enough cars for my grandiose plans to cure any and all crowding conditions as well as the plans of other scatter brain foamers.
avid
If the clearances are sufficient, they should be able to run the ACMU-1100 series cars on the S.I.R.T. tracks. Then they'll also need to change the third rail shoes for the overrunning third rail rather than the underunning third rail used on Metro-North.
#3 West End Jeff
What you are basically asking for is an LIRR MP-72.
Hey, that would be a nice car to have on Metro North if it is anything like the ACMU-1100 series cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Great, so much for railfan windows there. Looks like it'll be about 30 yeard before we can see a descent class of MU on MNRR/LAIR. Oh welll.
Hi.
Can anybody give me a definitive answer to this question? I need it for a quiz i'm organizing.
How many stations are there on the New York subway?
468 STATIONS
Peace,
ANDEE
Currently, 463 stations. Cortlandt St, Rector St and South Ferry on the 1, Cortlandt St on the N/R and World Trade Center on the E are currently not in service
Isn't a transfer point counted as a single station? WTC is part of the Chambers Street - Park Place transfer point, which is open.
And, of course, the other stations still exist (minimally, perhaps, in one case); they're just not open.
Not in this case.
Park Place is on a separate line.
So Times Square alone counts as four stations, plus the connected IND station? What about Stillwell Avenue and West 8th Street? West 4th Street? Is Canal Street three or four?
While we're about it guys, anyone for splitting hairs?
The question was how many stations are there in the system. No qualification was made as to OPERATIONAL stations so therefore the answer of 468 stations is correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
Then we need to add in 18 St and 91 St and Worth St.
And we can debate 76th & Pitkin for a while... :)
That offer of splitting hairs is still on the table.
Does the Belmont Racetrack Station of the A
count??... despite the fact that service
is happenstance and seasonal?
The A train goes nowhere near Belmont. You're thinking of Aqueduct. Belmont is served by the LIRR.
One is forced to wonder about a quiz that quizmaster can't answer.
I haven't found the FerryTalk board, so I'll my questions here.
I'm planning a multi-ferry excursion next week, but first I need some information.
This article claims that the new Newport service will run every 20 minutes from 6am to 9:40pm and that it will be free next week. Can anyone confirm that? The NY Waterway web site is silent.
To ride the NY Waterway shuttle buses, do I need some sort of proof that I'll be actually riding a ferry or do I just hop on?
Does the NYCDOT Brooklyn ferry run in both directions in the afternoon? (The web site is ambiguous.) When is the first afternoon boat from Brooklyn?
My tentative itinerary is as follows:
38th Street - Newport via ferry
Newport - Pier A via ferry
South Ferry - St. George via ferry
St. George - Tompkinsville via foot
Tompkinsville - Tottenville via SIRT
Tottenville - Old Town via SIRT
Old Town - 92nd and Fort Hamilton via S79
92nd and Fort Hamilton - Shore and 4th via foot
Shore and 4th - Brooklyn Army Terminal via Command bus
Brooklyn Army Terminal - South Ferry via ferry
South Ferry - home via subway
How much time should I allocate? Assuming I want to reach South Ferry (the second time) in daylight, what time should I catch the ferry to Newport?
If anyone is interested in joining me, send email. I'm probably going Wednesday, but Tuesday is an option as well.
Call NY waterway at the toll-free number listed on their website. 1-800-53-FERRY The folks answering the phone know the answers to your questions. The website lists an email address but they don't answer emails.
Don't forget NYWW also has a free ferry from Pier A (battery park) to Pier 11 (wall street & east river). Perhaps you could end your trip with
South Ferry -> Pier A by foot
Pier A -> Pier 11 by ferry
Pier 11 -> Fulton Street/Broadway/Nassau by foot
Don't forget -- no 1-9 subway service to South Ferry. Whitehall and Bowling Green are not far.
Good idea. I think I'll do that. It'll get me a hair closer to the 1/2 at Wall Street and, more importantly, it's another ferry.
Thanks for the phone number.
The Pier A-Pier 11 shuttle is to be discontinued. Not sure exactly when but probably first week December. So be sure to double check on that as well.
3 leased boats running from peir 11 to new jersey were returned to their home in bayshore long island, the Explorer, Voyager, and fireball.
what is peer A
Pier A is the old FDNY pier at the west end of Battery Park. Currently under renovation, but NY Waterways has set up a docking barge facility to replace their former site in Battery Park city.
The customer service agent I spoke to knew nothing except the startup date, but she confirmed that nj.com is a reliable source. (I forgot to ask about the Pier A - Pier 11 ferry. I guess I'll find out when I get there.)
You can only board a NYWW bus at the ferry terminal, or when it's heading back to the ferry terminal. If the bus is heading away from the terminal, you will not be allowed to board.
You're not planning to pay NYWW any money, but you should still find out in advance where the ticket booths are, just in case you get caught in the wrong place. The 800 # can tell you that.
The pier A - Pier 11 shuttle is also free. Only runs during rush hours.
The Brooklyn Ferry is bidirectional in both rush hours. The boat has to come back anyway; may as well allow people on it. I have the official printed schedule. BTW: They are no longer using the side door for Brooklyn boarding/departing, but have made a makeshift front-loading slip. It has sped up disembarking quite well.
As I suspected.
What time is the first Manhattan-bound afternoon departure? (Subsequent departures are at half-hour intervals, correct?)
Don't hold me to this, but I think that service is every hour; they are only using one boat. When I pass through Whitehall tomorrow, I'll try to find out for certain.
Let me know which day you finally decide upon and I'll see about meeting you at St George or Tompkinsville. I'm off both days, so either one is fine by me - I just have to clear it with my other half.
Hello, again. What train serves the QB local between 5A and 6A? Also, when will the "S" stop running (12-15, or 12-16) and when does the "G" start its weekend 71st Ave. service (12-15 or16)?
Would you like to try that question again?
There is no QB service starting up. What is 5A and 6A?
The 6 Ave S will probably stop running after Saturday. and Likewise the G will probably start running in Queens on Sunday.
[There is no QB service starting up. What is 5A and 6A?]
I think he means Queens Boulevard service from 5AM to 6AM, not a new QB train.
I see that now. At the time it looked like he was talking about a QB local that was running from points 5A and 6A. I didn't understand his shorthand.
I presume the E and R will be the local from 5AM to 6AM.
Isn't 5AM to 6 AM considered late nights? So the R operates as a shuttle in Brooklyn between 59 and 95.
Intercity passenger rail has been unprofitable for the better part of the 20th Century, a trend that certainly pre-dated Amtrak, if it was not the singular reason for Amtrak's creation. The rhetoric that Amtrak relies on subsidies and should therefore be eliminated has always been a political move, not any great economic revelation.
Is Amtrak a bloated, unresponsive bureaucracy? Most (all?) freight railroads certainly would rather not have to deal with Amtrak, its management and its trains. I doubt, however, that liquidation, restructuring, or whatever you want to call it will really solve the customer service problems. This issue is superficial in comparison to the question of how to make passenger rail work in the transportation marketplace.
If Amtrak were liquidated, would the private railroads want to take over the passenger franchise again? Would they even want to try something like running mixed trains? Tell me I'm wrong, but if competition with highways and the airlines weren't already too much for "profitable" intercity rail, regulation as a common carrier pretty much kills the idea of turning passenger rail back over to the private sector.
I try to keep current on transit, but until now I'd completely missed the upcoming Silver Line on the Boston "T". It's Bus Rapid Transit and runs on-street and in dedicated tunnels. Cool!
Still haven't found info on the Big Dig website on whether or not they sunk walls for the North-South Stations rail connector, though ....
BRT Bus Rapid Transit
I wonder why they are using buses instead of light rail?
I wonder why they are using buses instead of light rail?
Have to ask the transit planners that. But my bet is that the buses are easier to maneuver through crowded traffic (as SF's electric buses are) than light-rail on a fixed set of tracks.
Also I betcha electric buses are less expensive than LRT cars, though I don't know.
Because they are going to go the airport using the TEDY. Since the TEDY is part of the interstate system they can't lay rail in the pavement.
Because they are going to go the airport using the TEDY. Since the TEDY is part of the interstate system they can't lay rail in the pavement.
Ah, of course ... the new(ish) Ted Williams Tunnel.
But, you raise an interesting question: Is there prohibition of rails on Interstate ROWs?
Or is it that when buses aren't occupying the space under the catenary that cars can use it? Which is, admittedly, FAR more efficient use of space.
BTW, the bus tunnel is spec'd for a conversion to light rail, should they want to in the future.
The N-S rail link info is in the FAQ section of bigdig.com. There are no walls, nor is it any part of the dig.
The N-S rail link info is in the FAQ section of bigdig.com. There are no walls, nor is it any part of the dig.
Wow, damn. So the N-S connector dream is effectively dead in our lifetimes?
The N-S rail link info is in the FAQ section of bigdig.com. There are no walls, nor is it any part of the dig.
OK, I went and looked ... here's their text:
"Is the North-South Rail Link part of the Central Artery project?
The North-South Rail Link is a proposed tunnel connecting Boston's two major rail terminals, North Station and South Station. It is not part of the Central Artery project, nor is it funded beyond modest amounts for a feasibility study, which is managed by the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority. The alignment of the Rail Link doesn't match the alignment of the underground Central Artery, but there are a couple places where the two corridors cross. The Central Artery project has promised to do nothing that would preclude the Rail Link, and where the two projects intersect the Central Artery design makes allowances for a rail tunnel to pass beneath. "
SO ... What is "making allowances for a rail tunnel to pass underneath"? Walls dropped just under the place where it might pass?
Can you (or anyone) point me to more detailed info, maps of the alignments, etc.?
Can you (or anyone) point me to more detailed info, maps of the alignments, etc.?
This was posted just a few days ago. See my post #285930.
Unfortunately, the Silver Line is not without its detractors. There seem to be quite a few websites out there that don't believe the Silver Line in its present proposal is an "equal to or better" replacement to the old Orange Line el. The MBTA wants to run articulated low-floor buses that run on electricity in the tunnels and condensed natural gas on the street. But they are running into a lot of hurdles with these vehicles. The most obvious one is that there is currently no bus on the market that is articulated, has a low floor, and can run on both electricity and CNG. I don't even think there are articulated buses with high floors that run on CNG due to its flammability. Some organizations think the MBTA will realize this and use electric/diesel buses and are raising the health problems that diesel fuel is associated with. But they also raised the possibility of electric/CNG buses exploding in the tunnels. Social issues, like the MBTA not using light rail on the Silver Line in predominantly-black Roxbury while using it in suburban Brookline and Newton were raised too. Even engineering issues were raised. I saw one site that stated that the abandoned tunnels south of the Boylston Green Line T stop would not only have to have their tracks removed, but would also have to be widened to handle buses.
Maybe I can offer a couple of suggestions. One could be to use light rail as the anti-Silver Line websites all seem to suggest. Light rail cars carry more passengers than even articulated trolley buses. For articulated buses to carry as many passengers per hour as LRVs can on one line, they have to run more often, therefore more of them have to be purchased. That means the price of an order of trolley buses for the Silver Line would be close to that of an order of LRVs - no real savings there. Also considering that an articulated dual mode electric/CNG bus currently doesn't exist, imagine how expensive it would be to make them and make sure they don't catch fire or explode.
But there is the matter of laying the tracks in the Ted Williams Tunnel. From what I hear that does present an issue (Interstate highway regulations? Tunnel clearances?). If so, why doesn't the MBTA do this: Run overhead wires along the whole Silver Line, including the surface portions, and use electric eye-guided Civis electric buses on them. They don't have to worry about the whole dual-mode thing and they don't have to lay tracks. And no worries about diesel exhaust or fires. No fuss, no muss. How about it?
2002? I think its going to be longer than that before the launch; try 2004. -Nick
found this elsewhere on the web thought I would pass it along.
Methods used by people 16 years or older commuting to place of employment,
as per US Census estimations from Supplementary Surveys, only given to
portion of the population.
SOURCE: US Census Bureau Supplementary Surveys
Information for New York City, Houston, Philadelphia only for PMSA, not
full MSA/CMSA.
Information for Balto/Wash unavailable for some reason.
KEY:
CAR= Commuters using car, either alone or carpooling.
CPL= Commuters using carpool.
BUS= Commuters using a public bus.
STR= Commuters using a streetcar or trolleycar.
SUB= Commuters using a subway or elevated train, or light rail.
RRR= Commuters using a heavy rail line.
FRY= Commuters using a ferry.
CAB= Commuters using a taxicab.
MTR= Commuters using a motorcycle.
BKE= Commuters using a bicycle.
WLK= Commuters walking to work.
NEW YORK CITY:
CAR= 1,446,234 38.28%
CPL= 253,427 17.52% of vehicle users.
BUS= 508,426 13.46%
STR= 22,719 .60%
SUB= 1,267,057 33.54%
RRR= 119,695 3.17%
FRY= 14,745 .39%
CAB= 53,444 1.41%
MTR= 875 .02%
BKE= 15,023 .40%
WLK= 329,636 8.73%
LOS ANGELES:
CAR= 6,095,299 91.39%
CPL= 1,003,818 16.47% of vehicle users.
BUS= 309,711 4.64%
STR= 5,067 .08%
SUB= 10,475 .16%
RRR= 12,685 .19%
FRY= 748 .01%
CAB= 2,813 .04%
MTR= 16,744 .25%
BKE= 42,860 .64%
WLK= 172,964 2.59%
CHICAGO:
CAR= 3,061,921 82.44%
CPL= 398,000 13.00% of vehicle users.
BUS= 204,215 5.50%
STR= 3,963 .11%
SUB= 150,126 4.04%
RRR= 141,883 3.82%
FRY= 0 n/a
CAB= 11,580 .31%
MTR= 0 n/a
BKE= 17,071 .46%
WLK= 123,200 3.32%
SAN FRANCISCO:
CAR= 2,790,072 84.67%
CPL= 450,744 16.16% of vehicle users.
BUS= 203,079 6.16%
STR= 14,064 .43%
SUB= 107,363 3.26%
RRR= 23,490 .71%
FRY= 5,746 .17%
CAB= 5,423 .16%
MTR= 14,054 .43%
BKE= 37,421 1.14%
WLK= 94,597 2.87%
PHILADELPHIA
CAR= 1,850,498 83.49%
CPL= 201,162 10.87% of vehicle users.
BUS= 158,848 7.17%
STR= 6,373 .29%
SUB= 37,571 1.70%
RRR= 47,991 2.17%
FRY= 163 .01%
CAB= 1,897 .09%
MTR= 2,321 .10%
BKE= 6,340 .29%
WLK= 104,555 4.72%
BOSTON
CAR= 2,350,124 84.80%
CPL= 253,000 10.77% of vehicle users.
BUS= 104,575 3.77%
STR= 8,297 .30%
SUB= 117,575 4.24%
RRR= 57,447 2.07%
FRY= 5,145 .19%
CAB= 1,841 .07%
MTR= 0 N/A
BKE= 14,265 .51%
WLK= 112,041 4.04%
DETROIT
CAR= 2,283,132 96.17%
CPL= 218,000 9.55% of vehicle users.
BUS= 33,200 1.40%
STR= 612 .03%
SUB= 212 .01%
RRR= 0 N/A
FRY= 0 N/A
CAB= 2,729 .11%
MTR= 1,807 .08%
BKE= 8,466 .36%
WLK= 43,985 1.85%
DALLAS
CAR= 2,359,059 96.12%
CPL= 325,000 13.78% of vehicle users.
BUS= 39,492 1.61%
STR= 0 N/A
SUB= 3,115 .13%
RRR= 2,095 .09%
FRY= 0 N/A
CAB= 1,226 .05%
MTR= 1,517 .06%
BKE= 1,014 .04%
WLK= 46,697 1.90%
HOUSTON
CAR= 1,767,813 94.25%
CPL= 246,000 13.92% of vehicle users.
BUS= 66,806 3.67%
STR= 108 N/A
SUB= 0 N/A
RRR= 0 N/A
FRY= 0 N/A
CAB= 1,525 .08%
MTR= 855 .05%
BKE= 4,144 .22%
WLK= 32,480 1.73%
So much for surveys. .60% of NYCer's take the trolley to work.
Most likely referring to HBLR. Some in Bayonne, or west side avenue area of JC, may prefer HBLR -> PATH or HBLR -> Ferry.
According to the 1990 Census, a handful of Staten Islanders took the trolley to work.
Gee, forget hidden subway cars, there's a whole hidden trolley line! :)
Even though I didn't get the journey to work form, I used to work for the Census Bureau so I'm very familiar with designing questionnaires.
The Bureau doesn't check answers against a master list showing possible transit choices. If somebody checks trolley where there is no trolley, the Bureau won't know.
As for an EARLIER writer who said he would never fill out a census form, my response is you're hurting your county and state. Government programs allocate funding based on population. If you're not counted, then you don't count in the funding allocations.
The Census Bureau doesn't share its data base with anybody because it's against the law. Furthermore, your name isn't on the form, but geographic coding data, so you're worrying over nothing.
Michael
Former statistician
You .......??.........trust the... """senseless""...""useless"".....Census ???
HELL I NEVER FILL OUT THAT FORM ...never ...!!.... ( invasion of our privacy every 10 years ) ....
I would not go by anything those folks say ever....... !!! .............lol....!!!
I never fill out that form ....
or co-operate with the follow ups !!!
lol !1
Two plans are being considered for restoration of service to the damaged West Side IRT, and it will take a minimum of three years. PATH service may resume in two years. The Broadway BMT Cortladt St. station may reopen in about six month. That information announced at a briefing this morning on the future of public transportation in lower Manhattan. The full story from WCBS Newsradio 880.
briefing this morning on the future of public transportation in lower Manhattan.
Wow ... any transcripts or diagrams available on the options? Or was it just that they announced this morning that they would make an announcement in December?
More details for an info-hungry SubTalk audience ! ! !
Wow ... any transcripts or diagrams available on the options? Or was it just that they announced this morning that they would make an announcement in December?
I wasn't there... the information was from the Associated Press. So I assume that tomorrow's papers will have more details.
The cited article says:
One option is to repair the tunnels and stations along the existing alignment. A second option is to build a new tunnel and to build an entirely new South Ferry station. The decision on a plan is expected by the end of December. Costs are expected to be more than one (B) billion dollars, most of which will be covered by insurance.
Interesting news indeed. One question is how one realigns the existing alignment. I think they mean some jiggling of the alignment within the WTC footprint, leading into an otherwise unchanged alignment at Rector St.
Oh, what grist for discussion this will be!
One *immediate* thought is to make provision for another IRT tunnel just west of the Joralemon tubes. And where to send such a pair of tracks? Why into Hoyt-Schermerhorn G tracks, via Atlantic Av at Smith St! Actually, this is not such a bad idea, tho' the TOs would have fits about a 242 VCP to Queens Plaza run via the Battery. There are other possibilities, of course.
You're mixing divisions.
If there were to be any development of Governor's Island in the future, extending the 1/9 tracks to Red Hook with a stop on Governor's Island would make sense, since it would allow 24/7/365 service there, the same way the Roosevelt Island station make the connection to Manhattan from there far less convoluted than in the past, and would allow direct access from Brooklyn for the first time since Buttermilk Channel was dredged about 200 years ago (it used to be walkable at low tide from Brooklyn to GI).
However, they would have to find a new terminal in Brooklyn for the 1/9 trains, since it couldn't connect with the IND without either eliminting some G train service and/or restricting B division car movements through existing tunnels due to the extended platforms to handle the narrower A Division cars.
I've toyed with a Gov Island-Red Hook connection too. There's nothing wrong with sending an IRT line into the Smith St line, and thence into Hoyt-Schermerhorn as the G train. You just switch the B-Q crosstown to IRT service (it terminates at Court Sq. during the times that count, anyway). If it came via Red Hook, you'd have an interdivision transfer at Bergen St.
More sensible, perhaps, is sending it into the Brighton line via Atlantic Ave, and then switching the Atlantic Branch of the LIRR to subway service, entering into the current Atlantic Ave Brighton station. We're talking not more than two new stations (at Clinton-Henry and at 4th Ave).
Sending the 1 train into the Smith Street line and then into Hoyt-Schermerhorn would not be the most sensible thing to do. You would have to take several things into account. If the 1 line will be extended to serve Governors Island, the first thing that has to be addressed is how (and where) it's going to cross the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel approach. In order for the 1 to serve GI, it would have to cross the Battery Tunnel in Battery Park or be relocated west of the now-damaged tunnel so as not to cross the Battery Tunnel. Next, once the new 1 line tunnel makes landfall in Red Hook, where would it hook into the Smith Street line. You have to remember that just after the Carroll Street station, the F/G line emerges from the subway to run over the Gowanus Canal on a very high concrete viaduct. Connecting the 1 line there is no easy task. And you can't do it at Smith and 9th, because the F line is 90 feet above street level there.
If the 1 is extended to serve GI and Red Hook, how about doing this: Have it continue eastward under Huntington Street and the Gowanus Canal. From there the 1 can run under 8th Street (parallel to the elevated F line) and connect to the the F line just west of the 7th Avenue Station. Since this is a 4-track express station, the new connection can be made to the express tracks and the F and 1 trains can be kept completely separate. However that means the G would have to terminate at Hoyt-Schermerhorn or terminate on the middle track at 18th Avenue.
Or if we want to have the 1 run into Brooklyn using the G line, the existing line would not have to cross the Battery Tunnel anywhere.The new tunnel can run straight into Court-Schermerhorn (the Transit Museum would have to find a new location) followed by Hoyt-Schermerhorn and then the rest of the Crosstown line to Court Square. But it would be unable to serve GI or Red Hook.
it might be possible to put moving platforms to bridge the gap for irt cars.
Interesting news indeed. One question is how one realigns the existing alignment. I think they mean some jiggling of the alignment within the WTC footprint, leading into an otherwise unchanged alignment at Rector St.
Is the current alignment WITHIN the "bathtub" or just to the east of it? A new alignment would either have to pierce the bathtub or be built WAY westward (under West Street, which would conflict with the state's plans to sink West Street into a tunnel to provide a surface level plaza to connect WTC & WFC).
The current allignment goes straight through the bathtub.
When the PA built the WTC, they built AROUND the 1/9 line. There was, I believe, no interruption in service.
Because the tunnel is destroyed from about Park Place south through the bathtub, there is a good opportunity to rebuild this section completely (probably, it has to be reconstructed top to bottom anyway).
Rebuild the line from Chambers Street to South Ferry; put in a new terminal at South Ferry without the loop, and with a connection to the east side line; combine the Cortlandt Street and Rector Street stations into one new station; make transfer connections to the other nearby stations (even to Broadway/Nassau/Fulton).
A contact at NYCTA has told me that in fact one of the plans under consideration includes a stub-end terminal at South Ferry which will hold ten cars. Whether or not that would include a connection to the loop for access to the East Side I don't know. I guess we'll find out in late December!
A contact at NYCTA has told me that in fact one of the plans under consideration includes a stub-end terminal at South Ferry which will hold ten cars.
The problem with a stub-end terminal is capacity. The TA is currently able to operate 15-20 tph out of their stub-end terminals. This will give the TA an excuse not to operate at their own deflated figure of 30 tph. A continuous loop terminal with no crossover tracks permits 30-40 tph operation.
Would a secondary terminal inside the WTC footprint solve this problem? Certainly, not every train has to go to SF. The ability to turn back some of them at WTC (a third track) would be easy enough to build in.
Would a secondary terminal inside the WTC footprint solve this problem? Certainly, not every train has to go to SF. The ability to turn back some of them at WTC (a third track) would be easy enough to build in.
Not a bad idea, actually, and as PATH showed there's enough space inside the bathtub for a loop. Though the site appears to be longer north-south than east-west, so not clear the IRT could have straight platforms for 10-car trains on an east-west alignment. Wonder if they could angle a straight platform and still make the turns?
Gee ... if the PA moves the PATH terminal to the site of the old Hudson Terminal platforms (suitably lengthened), there'll be a deep loop in the bottom of the bathtub going begging ... anyone figure out a way to run make the curves work for the IRT ???
A secondary terminal at the rebuilt Cortlandt or Rector St Stations would be a necessity. If it were a 3 track station like Whitehall, but with wider platforms, then it should be able to handle 15 tph. It would mimic the configuration of the 6th and 9th Ave Els, which used to have terminals at both Rector and South Ferry.
My suggestion for South Ferry would be a completely realigned 4 platform station.
Off peak the service would be as follows:
Tracks 1 & 2 - Line 1 departure, Line 5 arrival
Tracks 3 & 4 - Line 1 arrival, Line 5 departure
At peak times, in order to maintain Brooklyn service:
Track 1 - Line 1, from Brooklyn to Uptown Manhattan
Track 2 - Line 1, from Uptown Manhattan to Brooklyn
Tracks 3 & 4 - Line 5 Terminal
I have put a picture of how this would work at:
http://www.geocities.com/transitrapid/soferry.bmp
This would be very expensive, but I see this as being pretty much the best set up possible. It would almost definitely mean a MAJOR realignment on the 1 line just before South Ferry, with the line being moved west.
What does anyone think?
The nominal peak operations are as follows: #1/9 - 30 tph; #2 - 15 tph; #3 - 15 tph; #4 - 15 tph; #5 - 15 tph. So, you would have the #1/9 and the #4 running to Brooklyn through the Joralemon St Tunnel for 45 tph. You would also have #2 and #3 running through the Clark St tunnel for an additional 30 tph. Where in Brooklyn do you propose to turn these trains around?
Before 9/11 (I don't have the current timetable), the 1/9 ran 15 tph maximum, and that was only northbound in the morning rush hour. Southbound in the morning it ran 13 tph, and in the afternoon rush hour it ran 12 tph both ways. (I know, those numbers make little sense -- the line is busier southbound than northbound in the morning, and afternoons are busier than mornings all around.)
According to the MTA schedule the 1/9 ran on a 3/6 minute headways. (3 minutes for stations at which both stopped). That works out to 20 tph. In the past they have run 30 tph on the West Side local tracks in both directions simultaneously, which was their nominal service level before the TA manufactured a car shortage.
According to the posted timetable, weekday morning rush hour service is at headways of 3-6 minutes southbound and 3-5 minutes northbound; weekday afternoon rush hour service is at 4-6 minutes both ways. I'm assuming average headways of 4.5, 4, and 5 minutes, respectively. Even if we assume that headways are at their minimum values at the height of rush hour, the afternoon rush still sees only 15 tph at best.
Do you have a different source?
Where in Brooklyn do you propose to turn these trains around?
Why, Flatbush, of course, as a < 1 > to replace the < 5 >, as it is SO often argued that the 5 to South Ferry would never work because of
the < 5 >. This is EXACTLY how my sums add up:
1/9 - 30 tph
5 - 15 tph
This leaves 15 tph on the 1/9 not going anywhere at South Ferry. It also leaves Flatbush without the < 5 >. Hence, my rather badly explained idea of a < 1 > as a replacement. So, as before, 30 tph through Joralemon not 45. It is off-peak which more concerns me. Was there a discrepancy in the tph of the 1/9 and 5 off-peak as well?
This leaves 15 tph on the 1/9 not going anywhere at South Ferry. It also leaves Flatbush without the < 5 >. Hence, my rather badly explained idea of a < 1 > as a replacement. So, as before, 30 tph through Joralemon not 45.
I fail to see how your track arrangement would permit simultaneous terminals for half of the #1's (15 tph), all the #5's (15 tph) and also provide for through service for the half the #1's.
The idea is simple. The 1 downtown BECOMES the 5 uptown. The 5 downtown BECOMES the 1 uptown - through running.
Now, where does the 5 go at peak times? Flatbush. That is where I'd send the remaining 15tph on the 1 at peak times - a < 1 > (This would have the rather neat effect of getting people OFF the heavily congested 4-5-6 line.
My concern was as to what to do with the remaining 1 trains at off-peak times. A terminal further North has been suggested on posts previously - such as Rector, Cortlandt or even 14th.
Questions: 1. How do those additional 15 #1 trains that aren't being turned into northbound #5 trains in Manhattan get into Brooklyn to come up from Flatbush Avenue as #5s? There's no connection between the South Ferry Loop and any tunnel into Brooklyn, and no connection between whatever could be built to replace the lower #1/#9 line and any tunnel into Brooklyn is being talked about (except maybe on this board).
2. How does one cram 45 or so trains an hour into a section of line that can't handle much more than 30 even under the best of conditions? 15 trains an hour coming from Flatbush Avenue, plus 15 trains an hour turning around via South Ferry Loop or its replacement, plus whatever runs on the #4 (which is currently 10 or so trains an hour) is way more than the 30 or so trains an hour that can be handled between Bowling Green and Brooklyn Bridge (and all the way up the Lexington Avneue Line on the express tracks).
David
David,
If you had read the previous posts, I made the suggestion that, rather than replacing the 1/9 loop at South Ferry with a stub station, a four track station on an east-west alignent be made.
Furthermore, I suggested that this station connect at its east end to the 4-5 line IN BOTH DIRECTIONS. This would have the effect of at peak times, every other 1 from VCP turns into a 5 uptown, the remainder continue, say numbered < 1 > to Flatbush to replace the < 5 >. This would have EXACTLY the same effect as the pre-9/11 30 tph on the 1, 15 tph on the 5 and 30 tph through Joralemon. Any idiot knows that it is damn near impossible for any track to handle more than 30 tph. I may not have expressed myself clearly enough for some people, but I have at NO time been suggesting 45 tph on ANY piece of track.
Yes, I know no-one except on this board is talking of ANY such scheme, but it does not stop it being a nice idea. I hope you can see this. I think it would solve quite a few of the perpetual moans often posted on these boards, even though I don't expect the MTA ever to build it.
I hope you now understand my purpose as being to float an interesting idea as to what could be done with South Ferry as the 1/9 line is out for a considerable amount of time.
Perhaps I am simply being dense, but I still count as many as 45 trains an hour between Bowling Green and Brooklyn Bridge, and possibly beyond Brooklyn Bridge:
15 #4 from Brooklyn
15 #1/#5 (whatever they're called) from Brooklyn
15 #1/#5 (whatever they're called) looping at South Ferry and heading northward along the Lexington Avenue Line
And, of course, the same in the other direction.
David
Ok, I understand what you are driving at.
For clarity let me rephrase it. There are two local services on the West Side IRT: the #1 and #9 each with 15 tph. There are two express services on the West Side IRT: the #2 and #3, each with 15 tph. There are two express services on the East Side IRT: the #4 and #5, each with 15 tph. The pre 9/11 arrangement is that the #2 and #3 use the Clark St Tunnel and become Brooklyn locals; the #4 and #5 use the Joralemon St Tunnel and become Brooklyn Expresses. You propose the following: The #2, #3, #4 would be as before. The #1 would use the Joralemon St Tunnel and become a Brooklyn Express. The #9 and #5 would be joined becoming a through service and not go through to Brooklyn.
Here's a problem. You now have the following services in Brooklyn: express - #1 and #4; local #2 and #3. You now have 3 West Side IRT services and 1 East Side IRT service in Brooklyn. The East Side IRT is the more popular line for Brooklyn residents.
Woah, hold it. Are you claiming that (before 9/11) the 1 and 9 each ran 15 tph? On what planet would that be? The 1 and 9 ran a combined service of 15 tph, and even that was only northbound in the morning rush.
No, this is a design limit. They did not run 15 tph on each of the other lines either.
Trust you, Stephen, to notice my little sideswipe to reduce the notoriously (of 2nd Av Subway fame) severe overcrowding on the 4-5-6 line!
(The problem with a stub-end terminal is capacity. The TA is currently able to operate 15-20 tph out of their stub-end terminals. This will give the TA an excuse not to operate at their own deflated figure of 30 tph. A continuous loop terminal with no crossover tracks permits 30-40 tph operation.)
They could do a four track, two level terminal. A secondary terminal won't work, because the ferry is an important destination. You wouldn't want to make those people wait longer (for half the trains) after most of them have already used two modes (SIR/Bus & Ferry).
There was some talk of moving the line west to Battery Park City. I think that if any line should be run to BPC, it is the Lexington Local #6.
First of all, with fears of bombs etc. you have to clear the train before it goes in the loop. That backs them up and limits capacity.
Second, people get off the half-empty #6 because they have to take the Lex Express to Lower Manhattan anyway -- even if they are going to BPC or the former WTC. Extend the #6 down Vesey Street, with a station at the WTC and a terminal at BPC, and more riders will be off the 4/5.
Second, people get off the half-empty #6 because they have to take the Lex Express to Lower Manhattan anyway -- even if they are going to BPC or the former WTC. Extend the #6 down Vesey Street, with a station at the WTC and a terminal at BPC, and more riders will be off the 4/5.
Interesting notion. Most East Siders, though, take the 6 only to the next express station and then transfer to the express. Local has too many stops to go from UES to downtown efficiently, or even from Union Square to downtown.
Wonder if anyone's done analysis of cross-platform transfers at IRT stations? There are a whole lot of 'em.
So, under your plan, you'll still have a bunch of people switching from 4/5 to extended 6 at Brooklyn Bridge. Why not an alternate BPC terminus for certain 4s or 5s?
My post on running the IRT onto the PATH.
How bout running the 6 into Jersey City via PATH tubes instead of the 1/9 as I suggested in my previous post?
PPS
They could do a four track, two level terminal. A secondary terminal won't work, because the ferry is an important destination. You wouldn't want to make those people wait longer (for half the trains) after most of them have already used two modes (SIR/Bus & Ferry).
The wait should not be that much of a problem because the ferries run on 15 minute headways. Also, I'd be trading a 5 car platform for a 10 car platform. So, the platform crowding would be no worse.
There was some talk of moving the line west to Battery Park City. I think that if any line should be run to BPC, it is the Lexington Local #6.
First of all, with fears of bombs etc. you have to clear the train before it goes in the loop. That backs them up and limits capacity.
They could always reopen the City Hall Station. That would eliminate the backups at Brooklyn Bridge. :-)
Second, people get off the half-empty #6 because they have to take the Lex Express to Lower Manhattan anyway -- even if they are going to BPC or the former WTC. Extend the #6 down Vesey Street, with a station at the WTC and a terminal at BPC, and more riders will be off the 4/5.
The leave load for the expresses at Brooklyn Bridge is 85%. I don't know how this load is distributed among the 3 remaining stations and Brooklyn. You would have to justify your assertion on the basis of the number of passengers getting off at Fulton St.
Builing SF without a loop will cause a problem for turning the IRT Lex trains, since a stub-end terminal that handles 10-car trains would leave little room for a crossover switch between tracks for the Lex trains and then a flying junction to hook up the tracks with the Joralemon St. tunnel coming from Brooklyn before they reach the Bowling Green station.
What would make more sense would be angling the 1/9 tracks headed towards SF slightly towards the southwest as the enter Battery Park -- pointed about when the Statue of Liberty ferry dock is, and then turn it at a 90 degree angle towards the Staten Island Ferry terminal. That would create enough addition space for a 10-car look platform similar to the PATH WTC platform, where there would be a straightaway long enough to handle 10-car trains, or at the very least, straighten out the platform at least to the level of the IRT Union Square station.
That would allow all cars on the 1/9 to platform and perserve the loop track for the No. 5 train during non-rush hours, evenings and weekends (an addition connection would have to be built to hook the Lex tracks up to the new outer loop, which would be a jughandle like going into the 149th-Grand Concourse station. But if the 5 trains can do it up there, they can do it down at the Battery as well).
Has there been any word from the TA on a more mundane temporary fix: finding a way sooner than 3 years from now to turn around the local trains below Chambers Street (i.e., by repairing the piece of the tunnel from Chambers to Vesey - I haven't heard word of any real damage there - and putting in a crossover so that the 1 train can use the local platform at Chambers and the 2 can go back to being an express)?
Of course the whole line needs to be rebuilt in the best way that time and money allow, but meanwhile the service on the west side above Chambers is seriouly degraded.
Just as one of many examples, if you're going uptown and either an express or local will do (whichever comes first), you can no longer do that at either Chambers (no expresses to be had) or 14th (it's hard on the knees to be sitting in the uptown express on the downtown platform and then run for an uptown local coming in on the other side).
And I thought my ideas were crazy.
Let's see. You'd extend the platforms on the Crosstown line, running the 1 to Court Square at all times? I don't think I've ever seen an R-62 at an IND station. A simple track connection to the 7 where the two lines cross near Vernon-Jackson would finally connect all of the system's IRT trackage. In fact, if alternate 7 trains ran through the connection, there would be direct access from Flushing to Brooklyn and the Battery -- and the Bronx! I think that would set a new record for longest subway route, although the pre-1992 rush hour C might still be longer.
Crazy? Perhaps. But it would give direct Manhattan service to the B-Q crosstown. Connecting it to the 7 in the vicinity of Court Sq is interesting.
Oh, my. All local stops from 242/VCP to Main St. Flushing, via the Battery?
Sounds interesting BUT, i'd rather extend the stubs of the "E" terminal to Cortland St, open the bellmouths south of Whitehall to Governors Island, to The TA Museum, Kick them out, onto Hoyt-Screamerhorn, Fly under/over connection to "G" line, Connection to 7 line, after the 7 line is upgraded to "B" division stantards. BIGGER is BETTER!
avid
Not that it will ever happen but I don't think it's so crazy to send the damaged west side line through a new tunnel to the G train line, converting the platforms to IRT standards. It would give the G train riders direct access to Manhattan at last, and now that it terminates at Court Square anyway, it wouldn't matter that it can't go on Queens Boulevard again. At Hoyt-S there would be an across the platform exchange b/t IRT and IND. It doesn't seem too hard to do (aside from building a new tunnel under the water.) All you would have to do is make all the G train platforms slightly wider.
"and now that it terminates at Court Square anyway, it wouldn't matter that it can't go on Queens Boulevard again."
The G will still be going on the Queens Boulavard line, just at the exact opposite times that it is now: it will begin terminating at Forest Hills on nights and weekends. -Nick
I see a problem- often times when F trains back up they send them down the G line.
They won't need to do that now because (beginning on Dec. 16th) if F trains back up in the 63rd St connection, they can send them through the 53rd St connection.
What if the F trains back up on Sixth Avenue?
That's going to cause some major delays. The whole Queens Blvd line would have delays from F (and V) trains backing up on 6th Avenue. I can understand leaving the G line open to allow F trains to get to Coney Island in the event of a massive delay. Also, having the 1 replace the G on the Crosstown line would not be particularly useful except maybe for G line riders who live below the Myrtle-Willoughby station.
It would be much more useful to have the 1 serve Governors Island, Red Hook and possibly Park Slope. In order to serve Park Slope, the 1 could be hooked into the F line between the 4th and 7th Avenue stations, probably closer to 7th Avenue. The 1 would run on the currently unused express tracks and terminate at Church Avenue. Platform extensions would be built on the express sides of the 7th and Church Avenue stations. This would give Park Slope riders a second and more direct option for getting into Lower Manhattan.
Send 'em via 53rd and down 8th -- or if that gets ugly, via 63rd and down Broadway to the West End or Sea Beach.
Hi Todd,
Thanks for the news update. Hope all is well.
Regards,
Marc Giaquinto
Billboard Magazine
I makes 1.
THREE YEARS!!!!! What are the digging with? Spoons? That's how long it took to build the freaking IRT main line. Freeways get built faster than that.
Remember, part of what used to be 2 WTC is now in the 1/9 tunnel, and the Cortlant St station is half-flattened. When they're finished digging through the rubble, the tunnel walls have to be either replaced with new steel and concrete, trackways relaid, and electrical work (particularly signal work) wired in. Ordering, planning, and actual construction within current saftey guidlines is all going to take awhile. And I haven't even mentioned the fact that the City Council, NYS Assembly and Senate (which are in an election year in 2002) are either at odds with each other or with the Cheif Executive, both of whom are Republicans.
Relax. You're across the river (I assume). I ususally rely on the Deuce to get from the Bronx to Brooklyn in the time it takes the Lexington Avenue line to go from the Bronx to 86th Street. If anyone is itching to get the normal West Side IRT service back, its us Bronx, Upper Manhattan, and Brooklyn commuters.
Everyone is doing around waving American flags and sying how proud they are. Well I'm not proud to be in a country where it takes 3 years to build 2000 feet of double track subway tunnel. It's a damn dirty shame and that is what is making me angry. FYI that is TWICE the time it took to build the Empire State Building. God forbid if there was some sort of war. It would take a mellennium to build everything back at our current rate.
[God forbid if there was some sort of war.]
Where have you been there IS some sort of war.
Camden?
Seriously, this war is as about as real as the War on Drugs. Only more effective.
Tell that to the soldiers over in Afghanistan and their families here in the US.
I'll tell it to the American advisors in Columbia, the CIA operatives god knows where, the Coast Guard cutters in the Carribean and the Amry units patroling the border in Texas. I'm not underestimating the War on Terrorism, you're underestimating the War on Drugs.
Have you not seen the pictures of the damage to 1 tunnel? That is some major damage. And not only that, there's still a whole lot of wreckage at street level that needs to be removed. The major reconstruction has to be done once enough of the wreckage has been cleared.
BTW, Mike if you're not proud to live in America, maybe you ought to consider moving to another country. Seriously.
This country has good parts which I am proud of and bad parts which I am ashamed of. Devolopers can clear cut a forest and put up tract housing or drain a wetland to errect strip mall faster than you can say sprall, yet it takes years and years to build transit. When I see my country going to hell in a handbasket I am going to say something. If we got a man to the moon in 10 years, we should be able to clear a pit with rubble in 6-8 months. I just think America is better than this and Wartime America is sure as hell better than this.
Well I'm not proud to be in a country where it takes 3 years to build 2000 feet of double track subway tunnel. It's a damn dirty shame and that is what is making me angry...
To be fair to the TA, that is 3 years from the present not 3 years from the time they get access to the site.
That's a little hope. No one can do anything till they clean up all the debris that those morons caused us!
I was basing my predictions off of the 6-8 month cleanup estimates everyone had been running around with and the nubmer of their having already gotten 1/3 of the debris removed.
But isn't that 1/3 of the rubble of what came down from WTC's 1 & 2 that's been cleared up thus far? How about the jagged frame of Tower 2, the shell of the Customs House, whatever is left of the hotel that was banged on when Tower 1 came down?? How long is THAT sad sight going to take to clear up?? After this much time it STILL pains me somewhat to look at.
Tony
The problem is also the 1/3 debris they cleaned up is above ground. I think it gets harder as they get further underground.
Remember that the original IRT construction, 100 years ago, occurred in a smaller, simpler, less crowded city, particularly north of 59th Street and in the Bronx which were more suburban than urban. The IRT reconstruction below Chambers Street must be coordinated with the rebuilding of the WTC site, the BMT N/R station, and the PATH terminal. Massive utility and street infrastructure must also be rebuilt permanently. Remember also that 220 floors of offices are now compressed at ground level, and just clearing all of the debris will take another year in itself. And finally also realize that the WTC tragedy was an event that no one could have ever imagined, so there is no quick way to plan and construct the recovery when the tragedy destroyed twenty years worth of buildings and 100 years of infrastructure. Get real.
You dig out the hole and lay a temporary trackway from one end of the disaster area to the other where the tunnel is still intact. Start running trains, work from there. That's what they did when they built WTC I.
The only part that needs to be rebult is the part where a big empty pit will soon exist. You don't need a complicated plan to build something in an empty pit. Once you get the debris cleaned up this shoudln't be that hard. But wait, this is the year 2001. We need about 8 studies and plans, a gang of unionized construction workers, an equal number of local, state and federal regulators to halt construction every 15 minutes, the least expensive construction materials and the absolute minimum human skill needed to put it together. Oh oh! Don't forget lawsuits brought by every citizens advocacy group that knows how to spell "lawyer". Hey look! Here come the NIMBYs!
I prefer the old system. You hire a throng of immigrents, who have some sort of work ethic, and they build it in 4 months.
Welcome to Big Dig II: New York City (sort of like the Survivor series)
You dig out the hole and lay a temporary trackway from one end of the disaster area to the other where the tunnel is still intact. Start running trains, work from there. That's what they did when they built WTC I.
It's a tad more complicated than that. Remember the IRT is at an upper level of a multilevel basement structure within the bathtub. Highly unclear right now how much of the stuff underneath the IRT that's holding it up is solid. Gotta figure that out before you open the tunnel from the top and "dig it out".
I prefer the old system. You hire a throng of immigrents, who have some sort of work ethic, and they build it in 4 months.
Oh, right ... and you killed a few dozen, injured a few thousand. Sure. Perhaps some of SubTalk's track workers, etc., would care to comment?
The damage in the "bathtub" area is so extensive that everything within the walls will be removed, with the possible exception of the new PATH station and the old H&M station and associated tracks. These are on the lowest level. As you state, the IRT tracks are relatively high up in the area. The major problem for reconstructing these tracks is what to put them on!
You also have the collapsed tunnel just north of the bathtub, and the significant damages just south of the bathtub.
There are very few times where there is an opportunity to rebuild extensively. Looking over this thread, perhaps the best plan would be to (a) build a new South Ferry terminal (stub, for 10 cars), and (b) build a new mega-station, with both through tracks and stub tracks for terminal service, to replace the Cortlandt and Rector Street stations.
My beef is with the secondary construction project, not the clean up. Those clean up guys are doing a very good job. Once you clean up you'll have a pit. Just build a temporary trackway from point A to B and bam, 1/9 service is restored. You can go from there, but at least service is restored.
There are very few times where there is an opportunity to rebuild extensively. Looking over this thread, perhaps the best plan would be to (a) build a new South Ferry terminal (stub, for 10 cars), and (b) build a new mega-station, with both through tracks and stub tracks for terminal service, to replace the Cortlandt and Rector Street stations.
Why? Who cares! Do you think that the most pressing need for NY area transit is a South Ferry Super Station? Spend the $$$ where it is needed, not just where you can budget it (good example of this = SNJLR). Is the future discounted value of have having a few new stations w/ bells and whistles greater than the present value negitive of having the subway stations closed for two years. I think it's not. The old system wasn't broke so don't try to fix it.
From a railfan point of view those 1908 quality constuction I-beam tunnels and the South Ferry loop are irreplacable.
Once you clean up you'll have a pit. Just build a temporary trackway from point A to B and bam, 1/9 service is restored.
Uhhhh ... the IRT runs through several stories above the floor of the bathtub. It may not be supported by anything underneath.
Why? Who cares! ... Spend the $$$ where it is needed, not just where you can budget it (good example of this = SNJLR). Is the future discounted value of having a few new stations w/ bells and whistles greater than the present value negitive of having the subway stations closed for two years. I think it's not. The old system wasn't broke so don't try to fix it.
I strongly disagree that a few extra years isn't a worthwhile investment to make a more useful, more appropriate, more capable, better planned IRT for the NEXT 100 years. This may be the only chance in the next 50 years to rethink the line and the area. There are FOUR other lines within half a mile. And some substantial proportion of the people who used to ride the IRT no longer work there.
Uhhhh ... the IRT runs through several stories above the floor of the bathtub. It may not be supported by anything underneath.
Remember how they did the PATH tubes? You have a little turss bridge. They can pour the concrete around it as time goes on.
I strongly disagree that a few extra years isn't a worthwhile investment to make a more useful, more appropriate, more capable, better planned IRT for the NEXT 100 years.
You need to be thinking in terms of economics. The cost of a completely rebuilt 1/9 line is the following.
(Future Discounted value of all additional benifit)-(Present non-discounted Cost of loss of service and service disruptions)-(Future discounted value of some other project (oppurtunity cost) )
Here is an example. Would you prefer a South Ferry Super Station and 3 years of 1/9 disruption OR a 7 extension to the Javits Centre and 1.5 years of 1/9 disruption? You can vary the alternative plan as reality dictates.
It is my opinion that the money is best spent elsewhere. Build things where they are needed, not just where it is easy.
It is my opinion that the money is best spent elsewhere. Build things where they are needed, not just where it is easy.
Well, we can disagree on that philosophically. However, in this case the funding isn't interchangeable since it's likely to come from some mix of insurance (if the MTA has any) and special government assistance for rebuilding ON THE WTC SITE ONLY.
So, it may be that the MTA can make a case for spending $3 billion to relocate the IRT ... but they clearly cannot get $3 billion then use $1 billion to rebuild in place and the other $2 billion to extend the 7 to Javits.
That kind of suggestion was what sank the Pataki plea for $54 billion, which included higher-speed rail to Albany IIRC. Not remotely related to WTC.
I don't think the MTA is going to be getting any money from anyone for more than patching over the hole in the tunnel (thank you Mr. Bush) so they'd be funding any South Ferry Super Station out of existing funds.
Guys, you all seem to make valid points about reconstructing the 1/9. But, honestly, it will probably take 3 years to see the 1 running South of Chambers because just think, crews are STILL removing the mess of Towers 1 and 2. Then, they will probably have to demolish that skeleton of the Customs Bldg. (From Rector St, you get such a clear view of that burned shell from a southern view since the Tower 2 is not in front of it anymore--HORRID!!!). Next, REMOVE that mess. Then, inspect the bathtub,gut whatever remains in the WTC Concourse, reinforce the Path sta., plan the new site, THEN start repairing the damaged 1/9 tunnel even though it is just 2000 ft approx of damage to the tunnel and stations. Each of these steps will take much time. But I doubt a relocation of the 1/9 is on the MTA's mind--it would be too time consuming at this time--and look how long it took for the 63 St connector to be completed!!!!!!!! Tony
I just hope that the bottleneck is not the city or MTA. Once the cleanup is done and the site secured (empty pit or whatever), the subway tunnel (and PATH) should be rebuilt ASAP. Hell, would not the best thing to build the best possible train station and then connect the new devolopment to that. Let's put transit first!
From the start of an Associated Press story today:
NEW YORK (AP) - Construction at the World Trade Center site will
be a giant endeavor that is unlikely to begin within the next year,
the chief rebuilder said.
John Whitehead, the incoming chairman of the new Lower Manhattan
Redevelopment Corp., asked for patience in rebuilding the site
destroyed when two hijacked jetliners slammed into the twin towers
on Sept. 11.
"This is a huge undertaking," said Whitehead, a former deputy
secretary of state under President Reagan who will oversee the
redevelopment of lower Manhattan. "We want it to be done right. We
want it to be done well."
Workers continue to tear down the remnants of the trade center
complex while searching for evidence and the remains of more than
3,000 victims.
Because of the time-consuming work, Whitehead said any plans for
starting to rebuild in 2002 "would seem a little optimistic."
The 11-member agency will decide how to spend federal money
earmarked for the site and will make business retention decisions
in lower Manhattan. The board will also have a role in mapping out
downtown's transportation system, including the rebuilding of the
subway and commuter train lines damaged or destroyed in the attack.
If they don't think the rebuilding can start until 2003, than at best the subway and PATH reconstruction could start about a year from now, if the WTC plans are set by then. That means the three-year time frame for construction is actually one year or more of planning and two years or less of actual dirt, iron and concrete work.
If nothing else, 12 months planning ought to be enough time to figure out a unified underground mass transit network that's better than the one cobbled together back in 1970-73.
If nothing else, 12 months planning ought to be enough time to figure out a unified underground mass transit network that's better than the one cobbled together back in 1970-73.
And let us pray, hope and advocate that it's more than just rebuilding everything in place with some added passageways connecting stuff.
Let's hope for a rerouted IRT that better serves the WFC ... a PATH terminal that offers easier connex to everything else ... and maybe even my current obsession, a combined subway/PATH station with cross-platform transfers ... which would recognize that many people in NJ work beyond the (former) WTC.
I'd tell you, but I'm getting burned out w/ signaling. Could you hangle a meg or two e-mail attachment? I could send you a 1958 PRR rulebook. That pretty well covers it.
I'd tell you, but I'm getting burned out w/ signaling. Could you hangle a meg or two e-mail attachment? I could send you a 1958 PRR rulebook. That pretty well covers it
Mike ... think your response was for a different thread ???
Sorry, I was wondering where that post went.
Oh, right ... and you killed a few dozen, injured a few thousand. Sure. Perhaps some of SubTalk's track workers, etc., would care to comment?
Oh I'm sorry. I forgot that the American (tm) way was to keep these people back in their old countries where they can toil in American owned sweat shoppes and factories without ever having to provide for them the golden ring of an life living in a free country. This country is so full of hypocrytes on so many levels.
[I prefer the old system. You hire a throng of immigrents, who have some sort of work ethic, and they build it in 4 months.]
Yeah, in Shangri-La!
Three years is a long time to repair and then reopen a short stretch of an existing subway line.
#3 West End Jeff
I wonder when the actual consturction would start. If they could start it before the spring, perhaps the rebuilding could be done in 2 1/2 years, in time for October 27, 2004. -Nick
How feasible would it be to route IRT trains into the PATH tubes at WTC?
I seem to remember PATH trains being able to run on IRT tracks, etc.
I realize that there is a big height difference, but we're working with a fairly large, open area.
With Wall Street West in Jersey City really making a difference for downtown overflow, this could be a vital link between NJ and NYC.
Imagine a Newark to Van Cortlandt Park express. Now extend the PATH to the airport and we've got a one-seat ride while we're at it.
I'm surprised none of you guys have come up with this idea over the equally ambitious, but somehow lacking in necessity, "1/9 over the G line", or, "Thank God the G goes somewhere finally"
Whaddaya think?
PPS
Da peoples fum Joisey wud luv dis train but will the citzens of the city make up for the transit travel costs by ridership???? It would be really great and practical for mass transit/car driving connections but IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. Peter
How feasible would it be to route IRT trains into the PATH tubes at WTC?
Probably not very. Different third rails IIRC. Not to mention capacity issues, different platform lengths, and just IMAGINE the politics of through-running. Same stuff as imagining NJT, LIRR and MN trains using each others' tracks for through-running. Non-revenue service (NJT parking in Queens yards) is one thing, but actually carrying passengers ... hoo boy!
I'm surprised none of you guys have come up with this idea ...
See my earlier post which at least raised the question of putting the IRT into the PATH loop in the basement ....
Different trip arms, different car clearances (wider but shorter), different signal systems
Different trip arms, different car clearances (wider but shorter), different signal systems
Yeah, had a feeling. So, for maximum passenger convenience, let's consider ... TA/PATH cross-platform transfers!
How bout a new combined TA/PATH station in the old Hudson Terminal space (extended for 10-car trains of whichever line has longer cars). It used to have 5 tracks, 4 platforms, so with a little juggling you could do cross-platform transfers from "inbound" PATH (center tracks) to uptown subway (outer northbound) in the morning, downtown subway outer southbound) to "outbound" PATH (center tracks) at night.
Some elevation issues would have to be solved to allow the southbound subway track to pass over the descending PATH tubes, but that's solvable.
Question is, *WHICH* subway line? I'd like to see discussion on (1) extending the E terminal south, or (2) rerouted West Side IRT, or (3) Larry Littlefield's 6 (or 4/5) extension west along Vesey Street. For that last, I have to modify his route so it goes into the combined station then heads west to end in/under BPC. (Tough area to tunnel into, though ... all fill.)
This station could also be connected via walkways to the A,C,4,5,J,M, 2 and 3 at the Fulton/Fulton/Broadway-Nassau/Fulton complex, as the PA has already indicated they'd like to do.
Regardless of which subway, the night transfer is slightly non-intuitive: Because PATH runs counter-clockwise around the loop, all PATHs depart northbound. So, commuters would have to get used to coming off a southbound subway at night and having the PATH leave northbound before turning west into the northern (outbound) tube. Not a big deal.
The original news story indicates they are considering a realignment. As I think about this, I suspect Silverman et al might have something to do with this. PATH is talking of relocating further west, partly to give more flexibility for the architects of the new WTC. Moving the IRT a bit further west, perhaps directly over the PATH platforms, would have the same effect for the bathtub: a larger contiguous space.
It would be nice if the two Cortlandt stations were essentially joined, with a quick shot into PATH. A good pedestrian way (even a free transfer) under Dey or Cortlandt to Broadway would be icing on the cake.
All considered tho', I really would be nice if they built a second station over on West St., giving the line two terminals.
PATH is talking of relocating further west, partly to give more flexibility for the architects of the new WTC.
Uhhhh ... you mean EAST. The old Hudson Terminal site is east of the current loop in the bathtub, on the other side of the IRT between it and the BMT line.
Moving the IRT a bit further west, perhaps directly over the PATH platforms, would have the same effect for the bathtub: a larger contiguous space ... It would be nice if the two Cortlandt stations were essentially joined, with a quick shot into PATH.
I came up with the same idea last night! See my post on cross-platform subway-PATH transfers in new joint WTC station.
A good pedestrian way (even a free transfer) under Dey or Cortlandt to Broadway would be icing on the cake.
PATH really wants to connect their station to the whole Fulton/Fulton/Broadway-Nassau/Fulton complex. Sounds like they'll try to do this.
All considered tho', I really would be nice if they built a second station over on West St., giving the line two terminals.
Hear, hear!
Even if PATH were connected to Fulton, wouldn't Park Place still be a shorter walk to the 1/2?
Even if PATH were connected to Fulton, wouldn't Park Place still be a shorter walk to the 1/2?
Looks like it would on my map. I was basing it on there already being subsurface connections among the 4/5, J/M/Z, A/C and 2/3 in place. They'd have to build an entirely new connection up to Park Place under Church Street -- and then you run smack dab into the E terminal.
Though, honestly, it's so convoluted to get from the west end of the 4/5 entrance all the way through to the 2/3 that I doubt many people would do it in anything but the worst weather. Getting to the 2/3 is the toughie in this whole connections thing.
Will we ever see train service to Scranton, PA from Hoboken, NJ? Seems like I just keep reading study after study about reviving the service through the Lackawana Cutoff, but nothing seems to be going. I hope the new governor of NJ and shed some light on this.
I don't see how it will take any cars off the road. People who live there already are used to taking a car to get around. Running the train there will just attract new people to buy houses, contributing to sprawl and not reducing congestion.
The sprawl is there and more will come, train or not. They may use a car to "get around", but may not want to brave a jammed, road-raged, I-80 every day in their car or on Martz, which has that PM rush hour reservation crap, the last I heard.
Will we ever see train service to Scranton, PA from Hoboken, NJ? Seems like I just keep reading study after study about reviving the service through the Lackawana Cutoff, but nothing seems to be going. I hope the new governor of NJ and shed some light on this.
There's a separate proposal re/getting service from Penn Station to Binghamton, NY. Two possible routes: Paralleling Route 17 entirely within NY state, or via Scranton and then up. Second route is shorter, flatter and quicker ... but NYS DOT not inclined to contribute to a rail routing largely out of state.
Can't provide much more detail but Empire State Passengers Association (ESPA) has been updating on this now and then in its newsletter.
Well with no reason for the 9 to exist right now I think personally when the Southern Manhattan Stations reopen that the 9 should either be moved to a new northern terminal or not exist.
I say the new line should be like this
9- Dyre Avenue to South Ferry
the 2 and 5 can both run as an express, it might be hard though to run 3 lines along the lenox avenue section, but the rest should be easy. Hey it would make the tips alot faster.
The whole point of the (9) train is that it's a skip-stop with the (1) on the upper portion of Broadway. If anything could be changed about it (IMHO) it's the southern terminal.
For that I have one creative suggestion. Suppose both the (7) and (9) somehow share a "south" terminal at Javitz Center, provided that connection is built.
:-) Andrew
That's actually a cool idea, simce most West Side locals are pretty empty south of 34th.
The 9 should be reborn as the old Broadway Thru-Exprees, making express stops via the center track north of 96th.
You got one long stretch with only two tracks for the middle third from 96 to 242.
The 2 tracks are from 157-Dyckman a total of 5 stops
For those 5 stops you can't run a thru express. It won't work with only 2. That is why I like having short runs to/from 137th.
As some have suggested, if you have two south end terminals (one at South Ferry, the other at the old WTC site), you could run the 1 from 242 to WTC, express from 137 to 96 in peak direction, and the 9 from 137 to South Ferry, local the whole route. (If there ever is a Javits Center terminal as well, that can be a third destination.)
It worked before
Thru Express sounds good
"9 - Dyer Avenue to South Ferry" ??
The reason that the express lines go to Lenox and the local lines run up Broadway is to avoid switching north of 96th street. That would cause much in the way of delays once full service is restored.
The need for skip/stop service on the north end is the reason for the creation of the 9.
What need for skip-stop service? The need for passengers from the very last stop to save two minutes? The need for passengers at intermediate stops to wait twice as long for a train? Skip-stop on the 1/9 increased the average passenger's travel time.
Ideally, the junctions at 96th would be improved, allowing for a 1 local SF-137, 2 express Flatbush-241, 3 local SF-Lenox, 9 express New Lots-VCP. Barring that, run the 1 at maximum capacity with alternate trains terminating at 137, and restore the 2 and 3 to their pre-9/11 selves.
I agree with having the 1 alone run at maximum capacity. As much as I love having more express service, I don't think it would work on the 1/9 north of 96. From what I've seen, a good chunk of its riders get off between 103 and 137 Streets and all of these stations are local stations. Skip-stop service doesn't really speed things up for those that have to transfer between the 1 and 9 north of 137. Passengers there are better off taking the A to 168 then transfering, and that's what a lot of passengers wind up doing.
I think the primary reason for skip-stop isn't speed but crowding. The idea was to give passengers down the line (in the morning) a chance to board. Skip-stop does make no sense in the PM, however.
Using 137 as a terminal for the 9, and having it run on the center track to 96 would also make a good deal of sense.
9 be as 9 was.
Go back to select 1 trains terminating at 137th to provide better service. Trains operating a shorter route are less likely to be delayed. Skip-stop was stupid and was a pain, especially since the differences between the 1 and 9 were almost none on 9/10.
While commuting on a Diamond-Q Slant this morning at from my home in Brooklyn to my job in Manhattan, 3 TA employees got on at DeKalb (around 9:20 or so) and asked the TO to drop them off at the Brooklyn anchorage of the Manhattan Bridge.
As we passed through the old Myrtle Ave Stn. and veered left to switch to the southside bridge tracks, one of the workers (surprisingly, to me) asked if the two sets of tracks to either side of the descending line were layup tracks. The crew chief and I (since I happened to be standing right next to them) quickly pointed out that they were the leads to the closed north side of the bridge. I was just a bit taken aback that this fellow (who claimed to have been working for the TA for something like 10 years) was so unfamiliar with the trackage.
I must say, it was rather interesting -- as a railfan -- to watch the train just stop in the middle of the bridge and three guys just clamber out the front of the R-40. As I say...not something you see every day.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Both times I have ridden the old Q, crew needed to be picked up on the Manny B.
>>> I was just a bit taken aback that this fellow (who claimed to have been working for the TA for something like 10 years) was so unfamiliar with the trackage. <<<
Maybe the guy spent those 10 years in A division and just transferred over.
Peace,
ANDEE
The T/O we conversed with on the M in October didn't realize there were R-42s on his line. Wayne explained the cosmetic differences between the slant R-40s, R-40Ms, and R-42s.
I don't know if everyone on this board is familiar with Paul Weyrich's history as a rail enthusiast, but it started before he was a reporter in Milwaukee.
He grew up in a North Shore (Chicago) suburb, and while still in high school organized and operated a railfan charter on the North Shore Line, creating a railfan "club" as a front for purposes of the charter.
The Free Congress Foundation for a number of years in the late 80's and early 90's published a slick magazine "The New Electric Railway Journal". It was a quarterly covering light rail, rapid transit, commuter rail, trolley buses, and commuter rail operations. It was designed to appeal to both railfans and transit professionals. I quote: "...The New Electric Railway Journal seeks to promote electric railways as a major element in the solution to our nation's urban transportation problems, but to do so in ways that ensure the taxpayer gets maximum benefit from public moneys used to support rail transit."
Eventually the Foundation spun the magazine off to a group headed by the editor, the late Richard Kunz of Chicago. I spoke to Kunz shortly before he died, and he chuckled at recalling Weyrich's politics. Needless to say, Kunz's views were somehat to the left of Weyrich's. Unfortunately, when Kunz died, the magazine died with him.
I miss the magazine; no other one publication comprehensively deals with electric railways past and present.
Paul Weyrich has contributed to electric railway appreciation. I don't understand his stance regarding Amtrak. I've said my piece, and have refrained from making negative political comments, better left unsaid in this forum.
For Weyrich's web site, go to www.trolleycar.org .
So this guy is from the religious right and also supports rail sounds a bit like Mussolini to me.
He wants the trains to run on time
Weyrich is a member of the organization that publishes First & Finest magazine. It is not a "slick" magazine, but has tons of information in it. I just subscribed to it.
Correction. The magazine is "First and Fastest", a quarterly publication of the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society, which covers Chicagoland electric railways, past and present. Paul Weyrich is a member of this organization, and I am also. There is no connection with his foundation or the defunct The New Electric Railway Journal.
Anyone interested in Chicago area electric railways is welcome to join and be a subscriber to an excellent publication. Shore Line's address is PO Box 346, Chicago, IL 60690. Their web site is www.Shore-Line.org.
I was looking at some historical maps of the Underground from 1908 to the present and some questions came up.
When the Piccadilly line ended at Hounslow West, the District line also paralleled it before being abandoned in the 60s. Can you still see old platforms and tracks from this line? Or perhaps does the Heathrow express reuse the old ROW? Was this above or underground?
The Bakerloo was abandoned between Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction. Is this totally abandoned, or does British Rail use it now, since there is a connection to British Rail from Harrow & Wealdstone. If it's totally abandoned, can you see evidence of the line?
The Central is abandoned between Epping and Ongar. Same questions from the Bakerloo part. The current map doesn't show any connection to Bristish rail
The Northern was supposed to be extended north from Mill Hill East, connecting to Edgware and continuing north. What happened to the plans? At frist I thought WWII stopped the plans, but a map from 1948 still shows plans.
1 - District & Piccadilly shared the same ROW
2 - "BR" trains still share the Bakerloo ROW south of H&W to...? Not sure, Willesden Jct. maybe? But it's the same tracks.
3 - Not sure what your question is about the Central line. Epping-Ongar was single track operated by the Underground but it may have belonged to BR hence the BR transfer symbol? Or maybe there's a separate nearby BR station.
4 - There's a book out there about the Northern line plans. Also a web site. If you go back and find our discussion of Aldwych in one of Wayne's recent threads you'll find a link to the site...
Cool, thanks. I didn't know that Tube and Sub-surface stock ever ran on the same tracks. I also didn't know that Epping-Ongar was one track, but there is no British Rail transfer symbol on the current map for Epping.
>>>>>>>>I didn't know that Tube and Sub-surface stock ever ran on the same tracks
Sure they can, it's the same rail gauge. As an example, District & Piccadilly Line trains use the same ROW from Barons Court to Acton Town & Ealing Common. In the event of a delay or a blockage in this area, trains have been known to cross over and use the other line's tracks. And another spot (of which there are quite a few) where you can catch BR and Tube trains running on the same track is on the District Line-Richmond Branch between Gunnersbury and Richmond (though District Line trains use sub-surface stock).
> Tube and Sub-surface stock ever ran on the same tracks
STILL do at a couple of places. District/Piccadilly between Acton Town and north of Ealing Common (although the stretch east of Ealing Broadway for the District and Central DO NOT share tracks if I recall correctly), and also Metropolitan/Piccadilly from Rayners Lane to Uxbridge. But there's also places where the Underground shares tracks with mainline rail. The Bakerloo was one. The District line from north of Gunnersbury to Richmond is used by the North London Line (or was; the North London used to be shown on the Underground maps but it's not shown on my most recent Underground map, is it still running?) There may also be some joint use of Metropolitan line tracks at some point north of Finchley Road. I don't remember for sure.
The North London Line is still operated by Silverlink. It hooks up with the Bakerloo line further north.
There is one former tube line now operated by a private suburban railway line. Great Northern line was runned by London Transport until the mid 1970's, then was transfered to British Railways. Now West Anglica Great Northern railway operates this line.
WAGN also, rather appropriately, stands for We Are Going Nowhere
Go to the London Underground section of this website, and you will find several British sites with lots of historical info about London, including stuff about abandoned lines/stations.
The Bakerloo Line actually uses the "British Rail" right-of-way from Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone. This is one of the reasons that the normal London Underground fare structure does not apply to this section. A surcharge is added to the fare for rides north of Queens Park. The stations between H&W and Watford Jct. are still served by "British Rail" (I believe that Silverlink trains serve this area).
The Central Line between Epping and Ongar (single track) was completely abandoned and is not served by any other rail services. Recently there has been talk of bringing back the line on behalf of the London Transport Museum, but it hasn't come to fruition. This shuttle train only operated during rush hours and had about 6 intervals in each direction for each part of the rush hour. The 301 bus currently offers service between Epping and Ongar.
The District Line did indeed originally go to Hounslow West. The Piccadilly at one stage used to finish at Hammersmith (Dist-Pic) (HAMMERSMITH WARNING - Hammersmith is two separate stations - the H&C line station is the other side of Hammersmith). At some stage the Piccadily line was extended to merge with the District Line, and this gradually took over some of the Western Branches.
It is interesting to note that three of the Western Branches of the District Line no longer are run by the Underground. The South Acton - Acton Town Shuttle was abandoned long ago, as was the Hounslow triangle, and the stretch between Ealing Broadway and Windsor & Eton Central has been operated by a succession of GWR, BR and Thames since the 19th Century. The Piccadilly Line of course took over the Hounslow and Uxbridge Branches.
The Bakerloo line was in fact first cut back in about 1980 to Stonebridge Park, before being restored to Harrow & Wealdstone. The shared track between Queens Park and H&W account for three oddities of this line:
(1) the higher fares
(2) the frequent long waits to get into Queen's Park Station
(3) the way all the platforms ar higher than the cars north of Queen's Park.
Interestingly TfL are thinking of using the final part of the old Bakerloo Line to extend the Metropolitan Line to Watford Junction. Croxley Green and Watford (Met) stations will be closed, Croxley and Watford West will be re-opened, and Underground service will return to Watford High St and Watford Junction. Maybe.
Epping to Ongar is completely closed. The M25 even interrupts it. Buses run between Epping and Chelmsford via Ongar, passing near to the former Blake Hall and North Weald Stations. Blake Hall was closed in 1981, North Weald and Ongar in 1994. Needless to say, this was a failed attempt to reach Chelmsford - Chipping Ongar is hardly significant, High Ongar is even less.
The Northern Line used to terminate at Highgate, now conveniently re-named Archway. The current Highgate station is a different station below the former Great Northern station of that name. from this station northward ran three branches:
(1) Alexandra Palace (only ever accessible from Highgate HL)
(2) High Barnet (joined to LL as well as HL)
(3) Edgware, via Mill Hill East (ditto)
The line South from this station ran to Finsbury Park, then continued as the BR line shown on the Underground map to Moorgate (it does NOT connect with the Northern line either here or at Old St).
In a project just after the Second War, the government planned to convert all this to form a very complicated Northern line, known as "the Northern Heights". Of course they ran out of money, I think during the Suez Crisis (1955). I believe they also planned to extend the line from Edgware, via Bushey Heath, to Watford Junction. I have also heard that the Finsbury Park branch was intended to extend from Moorgate to Bank to take over the W&C Line. Just one thing - the diagram is VERY complicated.
One thing - almost NO-ONE understands the Northern Line. The trains are basically random. It's almost a good idea to go to Camden Town to change for the right train (not Euston for rule 3). Here are the basic rules:
(1) check if it is on the Charing X (via the West End) or Bank (via the City) branch.
(2) Mornington Crescent is only on the Charing X branch.
(3) Euston is really two separate stations at 90 degrees to eachother. Although it's no Hammersmith, they are a LONG way through tunnels apart.
(4) check the Northern destination - Edgware (some say Colindale), Mill Hill East, or High Barnet.
(5) southbound, some only get to Kennington, not Morden.
In the very early (pre-tube) days, back in the (18)'60's and '70's, I think there was joint dual-gage running with the 7' broad gage Great Western Railway and standard gage Metropolitan? trains. The smoke in the underground sections was terrible!
Colour lithographs often appear in history books about old British railways. Look for 3 rails per track.
Does anyone else here like the sound of the AC motors that new subway cars have while moving? I love it. I think when I'm old as some people here, and if some new motor technology is around, that whine is something I'll miss.
When a train with AC motors accelerates or deccelerates (at least in Atlanta, but I think the R142s do too) they make different pitched whines as the train gets faster or slower. What causes that? Also, are regenerative brakes something that can only be used with AC motors?
I like it. I was going to make a bad pun here - and I think I will anyway - AC Whine? Is 2001 a good year?
Seriously, I do like the sound. It reminds me of the sounds that the Lo-V motors made.
My friend, the Lo-v's, Standards & R1-9's were in a class by themselves, when it came to sounds.
MY FAVORITE SUBJECT: Propulsion 101!! As we learned in the last lesson, NYC subway cars run on 600 volts DC third rail. Braking is primarily dynamic where the motors are turned into DC generators and dump their power into a bank of large resistors undercar. This is a function of the control system...it senses brake application...and continues until generated current is less than 100 amps and the train is moving less than 10 mph...then pneumatic brakes kick in. Regenerative DC braking is difficult because the train needs to know that the power will be 'sucked up' by another train (load.)
The R142s/142As or 'new tech' as we refer to them take the 600 volts DC and through banks of inverters change the power to low frequency THREE phase 400 volt AC. AC motors are synchronus and can spin only in relation to the line frequency (like clock motors) BUT what the computer does is ALTER the AC sine waves pulses of power just like variable speed control of an electric drill only on a much larger scale (each motor is 150 HP.) So, what you hear is this inverter power whine and its frequency may change a bit with application of a load (starting to move versus running.) By the way, all motors (including air conditioning and air compressor) run off the inverter system. No more brushes, no more service and a clean Peter.
Regenerative braking in the R142s and the As is another matter. What has to be done by the computer is TO FIND a load: another trainset on the same third rail. One system uses 'voltage drops'by measuring to detect and the other searches for an AC signal superimposed on the third rail. I work on the Bombardier R142 series and right now, regenerative braking is turned off because the software to run it (and maybe some hardware too) is not yet reliable. So, power is once again dumped into resistors although unlike the old DC motor trains which use those resistors for motor speed control, new tech uses them only for braking. One fallback of the 'turnoff' is that good old pneumatic brakeshoes are being worn-out faster than anticipated and the units which push them in against the wheel are constantly being updated. Hopefully, regenerative braking will be restored and TA will find out how much of a power saving there really is (and I won't have so many brake units to check out in trainsets and shoes to replace BEYOND scheduled maintainance.) I must note that passenger safety is assured...trains do stop. Peter
I don't know if any of New York's other subway cars have regenerative braking (and if it's enabled if they do have it) but the results can get interesting if regeneration is attempted but there's no load/insufficient load to power - TTC H6 cars are notorious for this - the MA set and various fans spin really fast, the brightness of the interior lights nearly doubles and tbe braking becomes ineffective, prompting an air brake application but the H6 braking is a three ringed circus that I won't get into.
-Robert King
The whine is the variable-frequency power to the AC motors.
OTJ basically explained it: the microprocessor commands the
inverters to switch the 600 DC supply at a frequency which matches
the train speed. Thus, the whine increases in pitch as the train
accelerates. You'll notice there are 3 ranges. The whine increases
up to a point, then drops down sharply, ramps up again, drops
again, and then ramps up to top speed. As far as I can tell,
though I haven't yet gotten the technical manuals for these cars,
this is a tap-changing arrangement which is changing how the
windings on the motors are arranged to give a broader speed range
for the same electrical frequency range.
Regen braking was actually tried experimentally over 100 years
ago with DC motors. It was pretty sloppy though. It is possible
to do regen with series-wound DC motors, but it is much easier with
AC motors and variable freq, variable phase drive.
I noticed that the Bombadiers (sp) have a more subtle whine compared to the Kawasakis (r-142a). Actually they sing, something like this: ssoooommmmeewwhheerrree ooovvvveeeerrr... they stop at that point.
Propulsion control systems are a little different between the two...R142As have been at 239th yard but I'm too busy to go out for a walk yet. I'll see and probably work on one soon IF they can stay in service long enough as all the 'new tech' has new problems to be resolved. I LIKE DOING BRAKE INSPECTIONS AND SHOE REPLACEMENT on the R142s....keeps me busy, out of trouble, no one is on my back but I got dirty today! Peter
AFAIK, the noise you're hearing is really the carrier frequency for the controller, and it's harmonics (numerous because the output approaches square wave). Unless the R-142s controllers are anything unique, they use the same pulse width modulation technology that industrial controls have used for years. Basically, the switching devices are either on or off, and get turned on/off at a frequency considerably higher than actual output. It's hard o explain without seeing a picture, but it's a slick technology - I built a quick and dirty PWM once and ran it's output through a filter to get a LF AC sine wave. Of course, I could have used the output to drive IGBTs and a traction motor :)
PWM is for DC and universal motors. That's another name for
chopper control. These are 3-phase induction motors. The torque
peak is when the electrical angular speed of the field being
impressed by the stator is slightly faster than the mechanical
speed. I don't think they are using class D operation --
imposing PWM on top of variable-frequency drive, because the shape
of the waveform is not that important.
Are you sure? As far as I know, *all* large industrial AC drives are effectively class D amps. There's really not any other way to do it without having large losses (=heat) in the controller. switching devices - tubes, transistors, fets, IGBTs, whatever, are most efficient at full on (R = '0') or full off (R= 'infinity'). Anyway, I'd think the waveform is at least partially important, though granted I've never studied large industrial drives in depth. Unless you're sugesting that the output of the inverter is a square or semi square wave, and that's certainly possible.
The switching elements (IGBTs in this case) are definitely operated
nonlinear, in saturation mode, otherwise yes you'd have very
high I*V losses across the device. I guess I need to find some
technical papers on this topic. When I last looked at it years ago
they were square wave drive. That's not cool if you are designing
a general-purpose inverter for industrial use where arbitrary loads
are going to be plugged in which might not enjoy the harmonics,
but I think for traction motor purposes it is fine.
If you can find anything on the AC drive on the 142's, lemme know. I'd love to see how they do it, in detail. IIRC, some drives are PWM, others might be square wave I guess. Yeah, if it's a real load, not a motor, it needs to be a bit better in the sine wave catagory. Interestingly, they use PWMs as solinoid drivers in some stuff (at around 20khz!). I think TI or Burr Brown reduced it to a single chip...
Of course, with a micro (like a Pic or a 68HC11 or such), PWM is easy as hell to do...
The pulse width modulation scheme presented on the blackboard was sinusoidal in nature with the waveform always being ABOVE the zero crossing line. Peter
Was it in fact PWM, i.e. chopped AC forming a sine wave? If the 0
crossing represents ground potential, then yes it would always
be above that.
Transformers aren't terribly efficient, especially when you need to go through several. My bet is that it's sinusoidal in waveform, but a true zero crossing would require a ground reference at V/2 for that to happen. Transformers are real good at providing plus and minuses on the AC output. My guess here is that what we have is the negative swing coming down to a few volts of 0 and the positive swing to near 600 volts resulting in what we would consider to be 600 AC or some other variant that doesn't require the generation of a negative voltage with respect to ground.
In other words, if I needed to do polyphased sinusoids, I'd be quite happy if it had to be DC coupled all the way out to the rotor and stator to do it that way without crossing through 0 and into negative volts just to provide a traditional waveform.
If I'm right though, there's a hell of a DC flow through the motors even if AC powered, but that would also make a LOT of sense if I needed that DC coupling coming back out of the motor for regen braking. But the "whole cycle above ground" makes sense to me ...
There are ways of creating waves that are true AC. Class D amps and PWM inverters (1 phase), use what's known as an "H bridge".
The threads are not linking out too well for this post....my postings were meant to be as little tech as possible. Just a note: I've worked class A, AB, AB1/2, A/C on HF...class D had been sucessfully done with cheap switching transistors. The diagram on the blackboard for power conversion was sinusoidal but always above zero crossing...I can only relate what TA teaches in this matter. The book has yet to be written....I'm one of a handful who even knows what a o'scope is and even the laptops don't work right. Give em time...when things work out...I won't be doing brake shoes. Peter
Ahh, class A and AB :) I've done plenty of tube stuff there. IIRC, TV horizontal output sections are/were class C..
I've got 2 beautiful Tek 545s at home as my service scopes. And space heaters :) I'll have to snag a smaller, more portable Tek one of these days, though I love the 545s, they're easy to use and do everything I need (and I only need to be flat to 20mhz or so, the nice things about Teks is they're honest, not off a few db at the rated frequency...)
And, they're tube :) so they don't die if you slip and hit the plate connection on the horizontal or vert outputs tubes (and NO, I haven't done that, though a slipped screwdriver once exploded in the vert section on my RCA table set...)
Yepper, class C means "Cherry" when drive is under -9 volts or so on the control grid. And in your honor, just lit up my own Tek 442. :)
Hehehe. The best tube torture device I've ever seen was the 33 rpm speed units on Seeburg jukeboxes. Basicaly AC inverters, done with tubes, and "brute force", effectively a class AB amp driving the turntable motor! Less than worthy tubes turn orange when the setup's even slightly misadjusted, and I've heard they can burn holes in the plates of 6L6's, and even melt the envelopes!
I've also heard of a ham who sealed a homebrew transmitter, and then dunked the tubes into a container of ice water to keep them cool. It worked too.
422? Isn't that one of those newer solid state ones? Light enough to carry? :)
I need a scopemobile for my 545A, it's too much to lug it or it's older 545 brother around. Heck, even the 312 in it's canvas bag is a fun thing to carry.
I also need a few plugins, I've got a 1A1, a CA, and an L-20 (spectrum analyizer, does only 10mhz to 5 gig, though), but I want a few of the others, as they're useful.
BTW, I've found a scope camera to be an amazingly useful thing too, especially if you want to use the scope as a crude "data logger", for say a current or voltage draw while a motor operates, or temperatures, etc. Today, I guess digital scopes do everything, but I can't stand useing them.
One of the nice things about the plugins was that they provided a handy means for circumventing management imposed spending curbs. They would usually limit the amount on a single purchase order. One could cut 4 purchase orders for a single scope and "hold the budget line". :-)
Yep ... I remember the Seeburgs - used to actually fix those things many many years ago ... and you should see the plumbing for klystrons in TV cabinets. Spring a leak there and it's a hell of a light show. :)
Yep, the 422 is ex-Marine issue, all solid state, 100 MHz and VERY nice. Brought it to Tek in Poughkeepsie and they gave me a brand new CRT for it, no charge. (of course, being Chief Engineer for a teevee station didn't hurt) ... years ago, had a TELEQUIPMENT scope with the tea cart and all as well. And both had the polaroid mount. Storage scopes are cool and all and there were situations where it would have been quite useful ... but I've been at it so long that about all I do with a scope is check the power supply lines to play the old "which 'lytic dried out?" game. Don't need to phone a friend there. Heh.
I don't have a 100mhz scope yet, but the 545 with a 1A1 is honest to maybe 30 or 40, and is good enough for fixing old TVs up. I used it a bit with my '54 Setchell Carlson portable, and a bit more with my '59 RCA table set...
And, once I get an early color set (Pre RCA CTC-16...), I'll probbably need one even more :| My friend has a CTC-7, and he's getting 2 more (bastard!) of them. Really cool sets.
My only color TV in my apartment is a GE Portacolor, of all things :)
Yow! Well ... once upon a time, I had a CTC-4 with the old round tube (metal cone) ... enough leaky 6GH8's to make Con Ed stockholders giggle. You didn't need heat in the house in winter, just fire up the beast and listen to the electric meter whistle. :)
Heh. You don't want to know what 4's and 2's go for these days if they work. Last CTC-2 I saw on ebay with a good CRT fetched $3700. A ctc-7 getsaround $500
(grin) ... nah, I'll pass on a collector's item. I remember a time when 12 6GH8's all shorted out at the same time. I used to have to buy tubes for that damnable CTC-4 by the *CASE* ... and RCA's 6GH8's were always leaky, shorted heater-cathode or some other thing wrong with them. One thing I did enjoy though was pulling the plastic sleeve with the loud report from the ultor in the sleeve before you could get at the side chassis. No thanks. I don't own a power company. Heh.
BOOOOOM! I knew there was a connection between me and you SubTalkers beyond HF power amps.............it was Al Simon on 43rd Street and Tenth Avenue. To this day, many long years after Al Simon left the business to bury himself in gobs of Seeburg and Williams monies I am remembered for racking my Honda 350F with jukebox grey box/black box/amps/control units. Heavy stuff cracked my rack...showed up on service calls in military leather and tools packed in ammo boxes. Never had a parking problem or got stuck in traffic. Long before 'crotch rockets' used to crank my little Honda with a custom exhaust at 9500 rpm to wake up the cops in the Battery Tunnel. Did 'new' Seeburgs too...the CD jukebox with the Sony deck. Twenty one years of that stuff.....and the best thing in my life in twenty years.......is becoming a Car Inspector. Peter
Oh man, the Seeburg grey and black boxes? I never dealt with those - but I did deal with an all tube Tormat on a Q once. They throw nice sparks when dirty/misadjusted! Seeburg's nice, but I like AMI more. Simple, reliable, user friendly. I have a D-40, want an F (saw a nice one that needs major amp work today...), and love the H/I and Continentals...
Ahh, and a Wurlitzer 1500 and a 1800 or 2200 series. The 1500 is just a novelty, the other 2 are great machines.
I hate Rock-Ola. Crap sound, rube golberg mechs, and uninspiring looks.
And bikes too :) I got a '99 Harley Wide Glide, with a less than stock motor ;) And paint:
Sweep tube linear (almost) amps. like 6JE6 and 6JS6C. Got something on the job that stunned me and I wept for the good times I had at Technical Materiel Corp. many years ago. The reference: 8875..an Eimac gg triode in a cermet package with large horizontal cooling fins. Got a few of them bunkered away along with a 4CX1500B with an incomplete socket. Transit is my new home now and I'm as happy as I was working for TMC twenty something years ago. Got special license plates for my car...my Indian guy asked me what WB2SGT stands for...I told him it's Hindi for WB2SGT. Gotta find the time to fire up something...have eight acres for antenna farm...1200 w pep from TTL160s......HF rocks. Peter
I have an acient DuMont TV, 12" screen. 6BG6 output, the thing sizzles at the top with that blue corona arcing. Never got it cleaned up. My current 21" B&W RCA table set (repair job), is even more vile - bring a grounded screwdriver near the 1B3 or 6 something something 6 output, and an arc appears. Even through the HV lines, or the plate to the Horz output. Well well well, the Sams says the HV is 15,700 volts!!! And that damm 21CEP4 (square glass 110 degree) tube holds that charge in it! I can draw a nice spark even a few days after turning off and unplugging the set...
Yikes!
Once I get the vert going, the set should be nice enough, but the freaking pix tube is getting bad...
Rebuild time!
I don't think they are using class D operation -- imposing PWM on top of variable-frequency drive, because the shape of the waveform is not that important.
One could use PWM to vary the magnitude of the applied AC. IIRC, any torque curve could be achieved with an AC motor by independently controlling the magnitude, frequency and phase of the applied voltages.
Thanks Jeff H. I explained 'Propulsion 101' as simply as possible without getting into IGBT tech or anything else. The R142s as far as I know do not have motor winding taps (mebbe I'll peruse a schematic if I can find one) as on job of 'propulsion' (or is it 'undercar?') is to check the motor truck disconnects. These plugs are large and heavy with a lever projecting from one side and I'll rotate the plug twice to assure the 'snap' of locking. Fowarning to the stupid who do a complete disconnect: heavy cables and plug are hard to put back.
Here's an interesting note: they are AC motors BUT the way the inverters work is that AC does not cross ZERO! Home AC sine wave goes up and down crossing the 0 volt line (pos to neg) but R142s sine wave remains ABOVE zero. That's from R142 class and the explanation doesn't go much farther than that. TA did not issue me any kind of a meter with my tools...I carry a Fluke 27 industrial garnered from a flea market for fifty bucks. A Dep Supervisor was talking to me and asked about the DVM pointing out it did not have 'frequency.' The guys on the line may have gotten cheapo DVMs with that function but the tech is beyond most of them and there is no procedure yet for inverter analysis. I have a Leader laptop dig scope too!
It's been Undercar 101.....changing out brake shoes. Peter
I was enjoying being able to browse all the contest photo entries and suddenly most of their disappeared. Do they have a new home somewhere
?
how do you browse the photos?
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/contest
Ahh thanks for pointing that out. That is obviously not supposed to be possible.
It would be nice to be able to see the entries without affecting the overall judging. I presume that there are already numerous entries, so could we kindly have a peek?
yes !!!!!! ..........thats what i say too !!!............lol.....
Shows me right for opening my big mouth.
You do have a knack for putting your foot in it...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was not aware the photo contest could be seen
before the contest ended !! .............lol !!
Mike, Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the expression "Serves me right for opening my big mouth"?
And again.
I enjoyed looking at the pictures.
-Robert King
I was not aware the photo contest could be seen
BEFORE ........the contest ended !!! ....lol......
' where do i go folks i want to see them ..........yea !!
I was not aware the photo contest could be seen
BEFORE ........the contest ended !!! ....lol......
' where do i go folks i want to see them ..........yea !!
From the horses mouth:
On February 5, 2001, Amtrak train 286, on a scheduled run from Niagara Falls to New York City, collided with the rear of a CSX Transportation freight train near Syracuse, New York. At impact, the passenger train was traveling 35 mph and the freight train 7 mph. Amtrak's locomotive and 4 of its 5 cars derailed. The accident resulted in injuries to all 4 crewmembers and 58 of the passengers on the Amtrak train; no freight train crewmembers were injured.
Because of repair work to a track, all eastbound traffic was routed onto the same track. The wayside signal displayed a restricting aspect, telling the engineer of the Amtrak train to proceed at a speed no greater than 15 mph and be prepared to stop in half the distance he could see ahead. The engineer stated that he believed he had a medium approach signal, which would have allowed him to proceed at 30 mph and be prepared to stop at the next signal.
In either case, the train was moving at approximately 57 mph when the engineer applied emergency braking when he saw the slower moving freight train ahead of him. The Amtrak engineer told investigators after the crash that he had been going through his bag for track bulletins just before the collision.
The Board determined the probable cause of the accident to be the engineer's inattention to the operation of his train, which led to his failure to recognize and comply with the speed limit imposed by the governing wayside signal, and the lack of any safety redundancy system capable of preventing a collision in the event of human failure.
The NTST went on to complain about the lack of positive train control combined with one person operation and there is some pressure to ammend current operating rules.
Given the lack of progress on PTC in Michigan, I won't hold my breath.
Translation: the engineer f**ked up,those annoying and hyper expensive cab signals would have alerted him, and a PTC system would have prevented that.
I don't get what's so hard about PTC, and positive stops. One could easily implement an electronic version of the NYCTA's trip arm system. Hell, any recent EE grad could do it in his sleep, or he's worthless. Hell, even I could come up with a workable design, though it'd be far from perfect. IMHO, the problem is the insane intent to throw technology at the problem, witness GPS, etc. Ditto for electropneumatic brakes on freight. 100 or so years after AMUE and it's varients proved themselfs on interurban and r/t equipment, the freight RRs still can't get a stupidly simple electropneumatic system onto freight cars, opting instead for overcomputerized messes.
I'm reminded here of Wurlitzer's jukeboxes vs AMI's. AMI does everything with 2 solinoids, 2 motors, and a few sensors. Bullet proof. Wurlitzer uses a zillion solinoids and motors and sensors to do the same thing. Pittafuly unreliable.
A trip arm system would not have made a real differance in this case. The man mistook a restricting for a medium approach. Trip arms only activate if the signal is at STOP or STOP and Proceed. You'd need cab signals or some sort of persistant ATS.
PTC is good because it is cheap, compared to a sophisticated ASC system like the LIRR has. I don't really understand how it works, nor why it has proven too unreliable for FRA to allow in Michigan. The coming of PTC is why the VIA F40's were thrown off the International.
The Water Level route west of Hoffman's has nothing, which is why the speed limit is 79, although the track was good enough, until Chemical Spill Xpress came along, to easily accomodate a passenger speed limit of 90.
PTC is good because it is cheap, compared to a sophisticated ASC system like the LIRR has. I don't really understand how it works, nor why it has proven too unreliable for FRA to allow in Michigan. The coming of PTC is why the VIA F40's were thrown off the International.
::sigh:: Maybe I should explain this again. I'll try set theory this time.
PTC, positive train control, is the set of all technologies that can automatically control a trains forward motion. This includes all forms of Automatic Train Stop (trip arms etc), CBTC and cab signals combined Automatic Train Control.
For the last time, the LIAR's ASC is simply a subset of cab signal based ATC which is a subset of PTC. There is nothing special regarding the LAIR ASC technology. It just has more speeds than PRR Cab Signals with whistle, stop and forestaller, which is why it has a different name.
The PTC Amtrak is trying to install on its MI owned RoW is most likley the 4 speed US&S/PRR cab signal system used on most of its other lines (NEC, Atlantic City Line, Springfield Line, New Haven Line, Shore Line, Hudson Line, Hell Gate Line, Harrisburg Line) and the METRA line to Aroura. The delay is most likley due to a lack of funds.
IIRC, the LIRR's system is seven speed, as opposed to the beyond obsolete system Amtrak uses. Germany's cab signal systems on high speed lines is rerally neat. Not only does it tell you the current speed restriction, it tells you the speed in the upcomming block, AND how far you have until you reach that point.
No system in the US even begins to approach this level of sophistication. It's very useful, though. I'm still amazed Amtrak thinks they can safely run 150mph trains in proximity to 80mph ones with a 4 speed system.
The French, and I believe Germans, can maintain sub 5 minute headways with their high speed lines.
Of course, a cab signal flip at those speeds should be interesting.
And before you jump on me about cab signals being uneeded, Mike, I'll state right now I wouldn't trust Amtrak crews for a second without ASC. I've paced quite a few NED's on the New Haven line going way faster than they should.
The Hi-Speed bits have 2 extra cab signals, Clear 135 and Clear 150.
That "obsolete" system Amtrak uses is the system that almost everyone uses in this country. NS, CSX, CR, UP, PATCO, MNRR, BNSF, NJT, etc etc and it works just fine. Obsolete is the two aspect system used on some UP lines, some IC lines and in the whole of England.
As I have stated before, the signaling system needs to convey more than a list of speeds. Read any railroad signal rule table and you'll see that each signal is more than a speed. It is a list of actions that the engineer needs to take, one of which is speed. Signals need to be conveyed, not speeds.
Speed restrictions should also not be part of the signaling system. TSR's can change daily and even PSR's are subject to frwquent alteration. It is not practical for a railroad to have to re-work its signaling system that frequently. What ends up happening is that some SR's are under signal control and others are not. This leads to a lack of vigilance on the part of the Engineer as they become too reliant on the cab speed aspect. Furthermore, the range of possible speed restrictions far exceeds even the LIAR's ASC which would cause the RR to have to slow trains down all the way to the next signaling incriment or risk the drivers speeding through the SR on a generous cab signal.
If I had to improve Amtrak's cab signaling system I would add a new APPROACH LIMITED aspect with a speed of 60 mph. Due to Amtrak's elimination of signal boacks, trains can get stuck for miles on an APPROACH MEDIUM (45mph) cab signal waiting to diverge at an interlocking. APPROACH MEDIUM is intended for trains approaching 30mph crossovers. The engineers are given a 15 mph leeway as they are expecting a 30 mph signal and can slow in time. However, with turnouts now being rated for 45 mph, Engineers still get an APPROACH MEDIUM cab aspect even when recieving an APPROACH LIMITED wayside signal. They do not recieve the 15 mph leeway and have to crawl through extra long blocks at 45 mph. If people are worried about safety then can just have the old APPROACH MEDIUM aspect pick up at the cab signal cut out in front of each interlocking.
To Phil: Hey, we have a big Simpson's Marathon here in about 2 weeks. Maybe you could drop by.
It is probably time to MANDATE Cab signalling and various of the aspects(no pun) of PTC on all routes used for passenger/freight services. As to cost, like Air Traffic Controllers a good use of Fed money. Of course the freight operators will benefit but accepting the signalling upgrades can become a 'constructive easement' (Counsellor Bredin??) for permanent passenger train access.
You'd first have to MANDATE signaling on all routes used for passenger/freight services. Many lines do not have signaling and most of those really don't need it. Instead of breaking out the red tape for a case by case review of what line needs what, the FRA can achieve efficiency and safety by simply regularing the speed at which trains can run on those lines.
If I was to improve Amtrak's ASC, I'd ditch it and just adopt the system the germans use (I forget the name of it). Or, perhaps a fixed/cab system on this type of a setup:
The cab signal box would display the last passed signal, and the allowed speed.
At each wayside, you'd have one of the following:
Flashing green - Proceed under cab signal direction, clear to next fixed signal, which will be at either green or flashing green.
Green - Proceed under cab signal direction, next signal can be yflashing yellow, yellow, or either green.
Flashing Yellow - Proceed under cab signal direction, expecting a downward transition in speed, prepared for either a yellow or red/flashing red at next signal.
Yellow - Proceed under cab signal direction, expecting an immediate doward transition, and the next signal at red
Flashing red - Proceed under cab signal direction, expecting obstruction, switch thrown against you, another train. (effectively restricting)
Red - Stop and stay.
Ok Mike, pick it apart :) Umm, I might be around in a few weeks, depends on my job.stuff...
First of all, as much as I hate to admit it, the best signal configuration only has wayside signals for home signals and distant signals. However, both of those must be complete signals (unlike Metro-North). You really don't need wayside signals for automatic block operation.
Second point re: your system.
Flashing red - Proceed under cab signal direction, expecting obstruction, switch thrown against you, another train. (effectively restricting)
Red - Stop and stay.
These are mutually exclusive. In case of a loss of cab signal code the CSS needs to go to the most restrictive aspect. In the case of former, the track circut would be shunted and cab signal lost. I think you will agree that permissive operation is necessary. I will also hope you agree that it is more dangerous to have engineers needing to enable and disable the CSS during the normal course of their duties. Therefore the most restrictive aspect on a railroad CSS must be RESTRICTING.
As I said in automatic block operation you only need to know one piece of information, namely, how many blocks ahead of me are clear. Think about it, that is all one needs to know to run a train safely in an ABS context. From that number you can infer the sequence of signals ahead of you exactly. In your system the engineer does not know exactly what the next signal is (like Green can indicate one of any three states). In ABS, the cab signals are both a speed and a number. RES=0, APR=1, APM=2, CLR=2 or 3 depending. It gives you a braking profile based on current distance to obstruction. It's simple, it works.
When you get involved with interlockings the engineer needs additional information. You need not only not only block information, but also future route/speed information. Approach Slow and Approach both give you the same speed limit, but one needs the engineer ready to stop, the other has the Engineer ready to proceed at slow speed. This distinction is important. Currently only the wayside aspects can always tell you info regarding this signal and the next signal (cabs only give block information), however, because Cab signals should be SIGNALS and not speeds, you can have the cab SIGNAL shown always be more restrictive when taken as the primary means of signal identifacation. IE if the engineer forgets the last wayside he passed was approach or approach slow, he looks to his cab and the cab says approach. Ideally all aspects should be displayed in cab, but they're not. You said the Germans display both this signal and the next. I would find it dangerous to have two signals displayed to the driver at the same time. This is also completely unnecessary as one aspect can display the relevent information for two seperate signals (so just have cab signals able to display all wayside aspects).
The other problem with your system is that you can get conflicts within interlockings. Take Medium Clear. Medium speed w/in interlocking limits, then clear. What would the home signal display in your system? The next 8 blocks could be clear, but you could be crossing over at 30 mph. In the current system the cab signal just flips when you leave the interlocking. The way you define your signals only applies to an ABS context.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to fret about those rapidly disappearing LAIR wayside signals.
I would find it dangerous to have two signals displayed to the driver at the same time.
IIRC, PRR displayed up to 5 signals in the cab. Displayed vertically, with the next signal on top, it gave lots of information and wasn't confusing.
Sorry, two different aspects. Like showing an Engineer a clear from signal one and an approach from signal 2 at the same time.
I thought the NEC was going to 9 aspect with the color-position lights ?
It already has 9 aspects if you count home and distant signals.
I'm confused. I thought Niagara Falls to Albany was cab signal territory on the old NYC. IF NYC didn't have cab signals, I thought Conrail put them in.
Does anybody know if cab signals are operational on this stretch of track? If the answer is yes, the cab signal should have been restricting and would have thrown the train into emergency if the engineer didn't reduce speed to restricted speed.
Michael
The NYC had an ittermittant ATS system (like the trip arms on the NYCS, only w/ inductive coils). Conrail removed it as unnecessary (they didn't have any more Niagras moving at 130 mph).
NO cab signals anywhere in the territory - there's only one single 12 mile stretch between SYR and UTICA where MAS of 79 is permitted, most of the rest of the run from Schenectady to Buffalo is restricted to under 50 anyway. But no cab signalling anywhere on the run ... Conrail tried it and it didn't work, and what Conrail had installed, CSX tore out.
Isn't the Selkirk Branch still cab signaled with out fixed wayside signals as it is an extension of the Boston Line.
Not since CSX took it - the Springfield line is still cab signalled and speed controlled as far as I know - the yards have been off limits since CSX took it so don't know what the deal is now. Conrail was using cab signals but word is the CSX kids are too cheap to maintain them. To give you an idea of how ChickenSheet Express does things, when they're running the northeast corridor, they have to find units with cab signalling and splice them on the nose for that part of the run. Doesn't sound like a commitment to me. :)
There is no Conrail Springfield Line. That's the Boston line and since it dosen't have any waysides they don't have much choice. Hopefully their lack of cash will prevent them from raping too many more B&O CPL's.
The "Boston and Albany" name is long gone - out of Selkirk, it's called the "Springfield line" by the locals since if I recall properly it turns into Guilford to the east of there. I honestly don't know though. Only been out that way once and the downhill ride into Selkirk is a classic white knuckle ride, especially over that cheezy bridge across the Hudson. Did it once, I'll fly before I ride that run again. :)
I thought you were a railroad man. The Conrail Boston Line runs from Boston MA to CP-SH, which is at the west end of the Hudson River bridge you mentioned. The whole line is Cab Signals w/o Waysides. Looking at your CP-VO pictures I know that the Sekirk Branch never went that way as the home signals don't have the little 'C' light. If fact I doubt the Selkirk Branch ever having cab signals as FRA rules require equipped locomotives to lead and the SKB is in the middle of non-Cab Signal land (ie River Line and Chicago Line). CSX would not have done anything to the Boston Line name besides altering it to Boston Subdivision.
As I indicated, I don't know the details on that run other than having ridden it once and quite aware that there were cab signals used there as well as power that only runs on that line plus "helpers" if needed. I was never employed by either Conrail or CSX. I just got some joyrides with buddies that work for several of the local railroads after getting a CERT a LONG time ago for a tourist railroad I volunteered at.
Since I live in a town where you either work for the state or work for one of the railroads, I have a LOT of buddies who still ply the rails. Although I know how to operate, what time I have spent on a train was spent cutting air, short moves, walking back to find FRED and things like that for laughs and giggles. Having worked for the TA and having plenty of "up close" I've pretty much gotten all my yayas years ago.
What I get into are the WAR STORIES ... like your buddy Tuch (never miss a High Iron) as an example - I'm more into the stories of motors smoking, tossing another bag of grease, loosening up the sand because some numbnuts left the hopper door open in the rain and things like that. And of course, the wonderful stories of management decisions and the amazing things they bring about. But that's the kinda stuff I'm into - not which signal number is at what milepost. If it's green, I pass it, if it's yellow I start pulling some air until I slow down, and keep a spare eye on the slip gauge.
Anyhoo, the guys here call it the "Springfield line" whether it's correct or not. Everybody knows it's the B&A but the last time any of us talked about it (years ago) there was word that it was going to fall into Guilford's hands (B&M, Springfield Terminal) after the breakup. I have no idea whether it has or not ... those aren't the things people worry about on the railroad - you worry that your slab of papers includes train orders for every piece of your ride, how much you weigh, and did I remember to cut in the air on that add I just did? Sorry. I'm in this for the war stories. I don't care who owns the track, no offense intended ...
This was the NTSB finding?
Is the report on their website?
I got it from a private news source. I believe it is NTSB.
Here's the official scoop...
MTA 63st Info
complete with map.
Bill
Thanks Bill.
That will be handy for all those who aren't able to get a physical copy.
Hey, that's quite nice, there's 4 trains on 6th Ave again. Sure, it's for a couple of stops, but it's still there...
There are four 6th Avenue services today between 34nd and 47th-50th: B D F S.
This morning at around 9am, as I was going down to the #7 platform at Main Street, an automated announcement was made on both the speakers and the clock/sign-board which said "The next Manhattan-bound train is leaving from Track M".
The insanity was that the doors on both sides of that train had already been closed, so the announcement was of absolutely no use to anyone. For such announcments to be of any use, they must be made BEFORE the starting lights tell the conductor to close up. But isn't that obvious? I don't know if a similar announcement was made after my train on Track 2 closed up; there was none while the doors were open.
If the MTA thinks it is improving services by installing expensive audio/visual equipment and automated systems, and this is how they are implemented, they're fooling themselves and us. And this is the same group that tolerates the shutting down of the Identra signs and the turning off of the end signs on the trains, two very useful features.
If memory serves me correctly, a few sections of the Second Ave. line were built in the late '70s and early '80s. A section from 96th St to 110th St is already in place - I should know, because a guy who fell into that section was rescued from it and brought into Metropolitan Hospital ER where I was working at the time in the mid 1980's. So why will it take 15 years to connect the sections that are already in place to the lines already running? 96th St to 63rd St. is a straight run, and 110th St. to 125th St. is not that long a distance, either. So what gives?
The longer it takes to get something built the more money unions/construction companies/organized crime make. And in today world they all have the same goals and work with each other.
Yeah and Osama Bin Drinkin will turn himself in.
It took approximately 6 years to build the 63rd Street Connector from 21st-Queensbridge to Queens Plaza. And that was only 1500 feet or so of tunnel!
When you stop to think that the entire original IRT line was built in just 4 years, the mind boggles.
It took approximately 6 years to build the 63rd Street Connector from 21st-Queensbridge to Queens Plaza. And that was only 1500 feet or so of tunnel!
Very complicated site, however. Among other things they had to build a bathtub around the yards to prevent seepage of underground pollutants ... and there were major sewer trunks replaced at the same time ... and they had to add a sixth track to existing tunnel ... etc.
If anything, I'd have to think that the Second Avenue Subway would be SIMPLER to build than the 63rd Street Connector!
Still, construction in years' past cannot compare with the snail's pace of today's (if there is any at all) construction.
The IND was partly complete in 5-6 years, the IRT in 4.
Some say the better working conditions and safety precautions are the cause for the slow construction pace.
Still, construction in years' past cannot compare with the snail's pace of today's (if there is any at all) construction.
The IND was partly complete in 5-6 years, the IRT in 4.
Some say the better working conditions and safety precautions are the cause for the slow construction pace.
Today's construction is worse than a snails pace. Thye IND 6th Ave was a very complex line to build. Can you imagine them trying to do that today, if it took this long for 63rd ST's 1500 feet!
The original IND on 8th Avenue did not have those complex problems as was found with the IND at Herald Square.
As I recall, the book _Uptown Downtown_ says the Herald Square station was the most complex ever done, at least until the 63 St connection. It had to simultaneously support the BMT, and the 6Av El, as well as traffic on B'way and 6Av, and all the while avoiding a critical water tunnel.
Yes, 63 St was complicated. They had to keep the Queens IND running 24/7 while adding two more tracks and associated switching -- without squishing or electrocuting the workers, or otherwise engaging in practices that might engender megabuck lawsuits.
Herald Sq and 63 St illustrate the problems trying to re-engineer existing lines. It's easier to build a new line.
Partly is the key word. Altogether the IND took about 12 years to build, notwithstanding connections onto the BMT. It would have been done sooner had Adolf Hitler not got the idea to expand his "Third Reich."
You can blame the snail's pace of today's construction on politics, especially if there are NIMBYs and stubborn legislators involved. In the case of the Second Avenue line, it would have been done, Bronx to Brooklyn, in about 10 years had the city not run out of cash. Then throw in the State of New York's and MTA's redirecting of funds away from the project and into suburban and upstate transit development, adn current deadlocks in Albany, and there you go - a recipe for decades long delays.
Look at Boston, Washington D.C., and European cities. If there was even half the political cooperation in this city for transit development as in those cities, the line from Harlem to South Ferry would have been up and running by the time the Manny B. reopened.
Agreed. Too bad the 'can-do' attitude of San Franciso, with easy BART expansion, or the build now, worry later candor of Washington isn't available here in the Big Apple.
The "can-do" of Washington isn't as "can-do" as you think. Metro has been on-going since 1976, and the system took 25 years to get to where it is now.
WMATA also ended up screwing every other system out of Federal $$$. When Congress agreed to fund Metro in total in 1973, the (unexpected) escalating costs made Congress reneg, and every other system has been funded on a line-by-line basis.
It takes almost as long to get all the construction approvals needed to start building as it took to build the original line. It the 'old days' it really only took 2 or 3 guys to decide 'Yes, let's build it.' Now thanks to projects like that, there are environmental impact statements, public hearings on routings, public involvement in planning, coordination with utility companies on relocating underground facilities, safety and working condition improvements, and other improvements that have developed as as our society evolved to put humanity above the the need for great works.
-Hank
I visit in Spanish Harlem and I noticed yesterday, on second avenue between 111th & 110th streets, a cemented over grating on the east side of the street. That's probably a part of the unfinished subway. Thanks for solving that mystery for me. :^)
Yes, that is it! That segment runs down to 96th St, and maybe a short distance beyond that. There are other sections as well, one located around 14th St, another one at 63rd St, and another further down on the Lower East side. Why connecting them should take so long is really galling.
Back in 1973 a neighbor of mine, a just-out-of-school architect, spoke glowingly of the project and was proud to have a small role in it's design. Three years later, he didn't even want to talk about it. It's a shame, if they really wanted to, it could be finished in five years or less.
I know that and you know that, but those who run things think that they can do business as usual and nobody would know. Someday there will be a rude awakening for some folk.
That segment runs down to 96th St, and maybe a short distance beyond that. There are other sections as well, one located around 14th St, another one at 63rd St, and another further down on the Lower East side.
The Harlem segment runs to about 100th Street, not 96th. The 63rd Street segment is really just a turnout from the 63rd Street tunnel. And there's a tiny segment in Chinatown.
HOWEVER ... I'm not aware of any 14th Street segment at all. Details?
HOWEVER ... I'm not aware of any 14th Street segment at all. Details?
I have heard that there was a small segment dug that was centered at 9th Street. It was only a couple of blocks long and was really nothing more than a trench, without any actual tunnel walls. It later was filled in completely.
I've never heard of anything at 14th.
The segment was between Second and Ninth streets, and had Second Ave. torn up, with wooden planks serving as the street for several years. At the time (immediately after the closing of the Filmore East, for you trivia fans), the neighborhood was pretty down and not getting any better. Now, with gentrifcation having fully settled in, it will be interesting to see the reactions if the MTA comes and and unfills the filled-in six block section, with the construction that will be involved (and even if they opt for deep bore on most of the new Second Ave. line, that section will have to get closer to street level in order to connect up with either the Chrystie St. B/D tracks and/or the Nassau Loop J/M/Z tracks south of Houston St.)
The completed sections of the Second Avenue Subway are:
E. 110th to E. 120th Streets
E. 99th to E. 105th Streets
Under Confucius Plaza (near the Manhattan Bridge)
David
That's why I find it amazing that the current proposals show what appears to be a transition curve over to Lexington Avenue that bypasses the northernmost section. With the scarcity of funds available, you'd think the planners would want to take advantage of existing construction.
It would have been very useful if staircases DOWN from the BMT platforms to the #7 mezzanine could have been installed, like the new staircases down from the IRT 1/2/3 platforms (that replace the old narrow ones). To transfer from the N/Q/R/W to the #7 we will still have to go upstairs first and then downstairs, instead of directly down. The BMT platforms have plenty of empty space at that location (below 41 St.) to accommodate new staircases.
Was this ever considered? Is there a physical limitation that prevents such a connection?
That will be done in phase two of the reonvation which will cover the BMT and 7 line platforms.
This sounds like an interesting idea from The boston Globe ]
This sounds like an interesting idea from The boston Globe ]
I've only seen one ad for it on the DC metro and it hasn't gotten much publicity. I wonder how it is doing...
The Zip Car that WMATA is touting actually parks one of its cars, an ugly green VW Beetle at my apartment in Ballston. They've even blocked off a space in front of the building for it to stay there. I'm sure Zip Car must be paying my building plenty for that space as Ballston is a very tough area to find any type of parking.
Does ZipCar place stickers on their cars? I looked on their website and they are coming to Grosvenor soon. I go there quite often but I never go much further into the parking lot than the Ride-On bus stops.
Yeah, on the back of this one it had "ZipCar" in black lettering and their website. I'm not sure if VW Beetles are all that they use, maybe they use other small ones like the Echo and such.
It'll only serve a niche market.
A car is a home away from home. It's your personal space; you control what's stored in it and nobody (except the thieves) can change that. You determine the smell and cleanliness.
With a short-term rental, you can't store any stuff in it, and all the "environmental" aspects are shared with other people.
i have a couple of questions about the JFK Airtrain. Is it Automated? And is the equiptment capable of running on the NYC Subways system? And will there be any track connections between the two systems?
Thanks,
Zack.
IDK about the first one but the answers to your last two questions are both "no".
Bombardier sites are not cooperative....cannot find SkyTrain. Did check Port Authority and site claims compatability. Obviously CBTA systems will not work on TA if they ARE implemented. What i remember is that the system IS automated without a T/O, runs one to four cars in a trainset and no plans for a REAL connection are anticipated. Really hope PA finds out what a 'stuck-up'Bombardier is when things don't work as advertised. Peter
Yes, it will be ATO (if all goes well). Airtrain's CBTC system and NYCT's are from different manufacturers (I think it was Alcatel for Airtrain and Siemens/Matra for the Canarsie line); dunno about compatability between the two systems, but as has already been mentioned, there is no planned track connection.
This weekend, if all goes according to plan, I will become the first African-American motorman/conductor at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. That this is so is a tribute to their efforts in attempting to instill in minorities a love of transit. Thank you fellow Subtalker Dan Lawrence for helping to make this childhood dream a reality.
Eric D. Smith
Good luck and God Bless. Please remember that in order to remain the FIRST African/American T/O C/R you must never touch the catenary/third rail with your finger to see if the power is turned on!
On the juice, on the juice, OnTheJuice. Car Inspector Peter
Good point. Of the two African-Americans who took the course, one quit and the other died before he could begin service (of an unrelated illness I might add).
Eric D. Smith
Good for you. I have to get up there soon to ride it, only 90 miles away
Please do, and e-mail me before you come up. BSM is open every Sunday from Noon to 5:00 PM, except during our Santa's Tinsel Trolley event, when St. Nick rides all the cars and visits with children of all ages. (1:30 to 6:30 PM, Sat & Sun, December 8th, 9th, 15th & 16th)
Probably not until after New Years
Actually, the prior African-Americans that were in the training course were some 10-15 years apart. Both dropped out before the completion of the course. We've never discouraged anyone interested from taking the course, I suspect both discovered that's it's harder than they thought.
Coolness! Pity it took so damned long ... hopefully we'll see some pictures of yer mug grabbing the handles here!
with a good soul brother like you at the controls ( where you belong ) I know you will be # 1 !!!!!!!
congradulations !! .................SalaamAllah
Click Here
This (and the past few mornings) have been quite foggy although this morning was by far the foggiest. On the bridge south of Grosvenor, I couldn't see much more than a few hundred feet in front of the train. To the right, I could see MD 355 but no further. The station wasn't visible until we were practically about to enter it. The fog also made the platform wet which forced me to slow down because I had about 2 minutes to catch my bus. Also, the escalator was out of service (again).
There is now a 35 MPH restriction for northbound trains leaving the tunnel at Pooks Hill Road. Any ideas as to why?
This has got to be the warmest fall ever. Bring on the cold weather already!
How about not.
It is actually plesant to walk to the Metro in the morning. I like warm weather much more. It is also much better for railfanning, IMO, although snow on the ground in my pics doesn't look bad.
I was contemplating the brochure on the upcoming changes and had these thoughts:
When the planners worked on this did they all have a FEVR?
Did the thought of having 5 lines on Queens Blvd when the G gets extended to 71st after 8:30 PM give them GREVF? (long E sound on that word).
Who knows. But I guess when it comes to the 8th Av line south of 59th St the TA will always have their ACE in the hole.
Did the thought of having 5 lines on Queens Blvd when the G gets extended to 71st after 8:30 PM give them GREVF?
No, they just wanted FEVR in the morning, but not FEVR all through the night ;). One thing's for sure, though; it's definitely more confusing now. In the '80s, riding the 8th Avenue line was a piece of CAKE.
Thank you. I am glad someone saw what I was up to.
Probably went over the heads of everyone else.
Probably went over the heads of everyone else.
Nope, just appreciating silently from the sidelines.
Damn! I rode in a northbound duece home today unaware of the car that I was riding in. It was Car 6689, an R-142 train bound for White Plains Rd. The old gal was right behind me. How could I miss it? When I stare at the car, I see a shadow of its former self....
No Redbird colors here, just streaks of shiny steel.
-Stef
The closest I've come so far is seeing a train led by 6681-5 come in, begging for the second half of the train to be the next in sequence, and finding it to be 6691-5! As nice as it would be to actually see the number in service again, they're all the same now, anyway; it'll be a few years before an individual car has a "personality." :(
Is there something I missed? What's so special about 6688?
For members of a Trolley Museum in a not so far place in suburban CT, resides a NYC Subway Car, resting, from 30 years of active service. It's A Subway Car Named 6688 (R-17), alive and quite well, while her companions are getting reefed somewhere off the coast of Delaware.
-Stef
Fellow R-17s are most driving down some highway in the form
of recycled steel on rubber tires. All of those cars were
properly scrapped, because it was long before the current paranoid
nonsense started.
HERE'S
a picture of the original 6688 at it's retirement home.
Peace,
ANDEE
HERE's an even better picture.
Peace,
ANDEE
Eek! i just posted that picture without seeing this message. Two minds really do think a like Andee.
-Stef
I tell ya ... I'm PROUD of all the fine work that went into painting and refurbishing that car. I'm sure that at least ONCE in my childhood, it was the lead car in a #2 or #3 that I enjoyed on the Broadway line running express, but being slower than the locals who only lost the race because they had to stop. :)
I'm CERTAIN that I rode it somewhere in the system in my years in da chitty ... and there's much HAPPIER pictures than even that of Stef's "spanish lover." Heh. (the "spanish lover" being a jealous Irish female thing) ... I'm really glad to see that so much loving and hard work went into that baby thought I sincerely wish I could personally adopt 1689 if she ain't taken ... mind ya, as a carney worker, I didn't much appreciate 1689 at the time, but chances are given her history of burning up motors, she was probably one of my monkey suit cars. There's lower car numbers that burned my ass to remember 1689 - 469 comes to mind way too often as does 668 ... but I'll take what I can get. :)
The folks at Q-car might want to issue 1689 with the museum's approval (a little vigorish wouldn't hurt either) given their proposed pricing on O-gauge R4/9 ... 6688 is a lovely thought, and Stef and pals have done a WONDERFUL job from the pics I've seen. I only regret that I can't come up with the cash and the time arf to put my own energy into preservig the old sweeties ... the economy SUCKS right now and since we're even shorter of people than ever before, sure do wish I could pitch in myself ... even if it's IRT. :)
Hey, Kev, did you ever do handle time or trigger box time on 800 or 1440?
Maybe you'd like to incorporate "1689" into your handle.:-) Just a thought...
Nah, taking 1689 as a handle here without having ever set foot on her at the museum or doing work on her would be sacrilege in my book. It'd be different if I did for 1689 all that Stef and others have done for 6688 ... hopefully some day I'll be able to earn the car number myself.
Now on to the question about 800 or 1440 ... somehow I think I might have worked 800 - I remember vaguely having trouble with that car at some point but can't be sure all these years later. Here's the deal - when you're with the show, you really don't CARE about car numbers unless you have to write them up. Once you do, you erase and move on because there's plenty of other things on your mind when out on the road. When you go home, you really don't want to think about it. There were a couple of them that I do remember because they were the proverbial "bad penny" and they kept coming back to dish out more torture day after day. :)
AMEN SelkirkTMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SubTalkers are asking me about the R142 roster.....I check my butcher book to see what I've worked on during inspection. I'm doing brake trainset inspections right now...when the day has ended and I've done my work..it's over. Peter
Nothing like an MTA paycheck to ruin the railfanning experience. :)
RUIN???? I love the MTA paycheck and wish I had the time to check all this SubTalk railfan stuff BUT the subways are sooo slooow. Peter
Even in 1970/71, it was a very NICE *BIG* check ... paid damned well. HOWEVER, after day after day on the railroad, you wanted to think about ANYTHING else ... that's what I meant ... when I was a kid, I'd joyride lines every Saturday. After working the railroad, it wasn't "fun" anymore. Every place I'd travel, I'd be reminded of this and that, and by 1975 I was getting real tired of "dog on the tracks" and each day's ride inbound taking longer and longer and longer.
Been long enough that I could get into it again for a while but then again, if it's even slower now than it was, I best leave my shootin' iron home. Heh. But my point is, as a fantasy or a hobby, the trains are a lot of fun. That tends to go away quickly when you DO it. That's why a large number of folks working the trains have no interest in railfanning ... and doing it for a living is the cure. :)
Sad part is that some of the guys ask me what I've found lately on internet: NOTHING!!!!
That's what I call showing some humility. It's also the same reason I shun any R-10 titles or handles (you all know how I feel about them) - it's out of respect for the REAL Mister R-10, William Padron. One of our regular posters went so far as to proclaim me the king of the R-10s, and while I was humbled and flattered, I respectfully declined.
Now 1801's fair game - that's at the New York State Museum and the curators have *so* buggered that car that nobody wants to claim it. Alas, it's undercar parts are LONG gone ... typical upstate, up on cement blocks, 110V AC wiring, doesn't do much.
The R9 at BERA is proudly being visited by visitors for the next four weekends during Santa on the Trolley. Inside her there is a small model RR display, she is pulled up to the high platform and only the crew door is keyed open so the heat can stay in.
Back in the day of the R9 did they just key open the crew doors when waiting at Stillwell like they do now??
Yes indeed ... although we'd often just push the gates and climb in between the cars too. A lot of the keyswitches weren't really there. :)
You'd just have to watch your step, right? One false move and whoooooooops!!!
Grab irons! :)
I'm not sure if it will show up as my angelfire account doesn't permit remote loading but here's another picture of it with my 5 yr old son posing outside of it.
It didn't come up.
you can see it if you copy and paste this URL:
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/R17.jpg
Peace,
ANDEE
And somehow Rosen, barely got a picture of a young man in the Train Operator's Cab wearing an MTA uniform, all the way on the right of the picture. Oops!!!
-Stef
Yipe! Darius strikes again! :)
Hey STEF, I got to ride on 6688 today....thought of you.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also this I believe is the only car number brought back to life that didn't cross divisions....???
No, the R-44/46 originally sharing numbers with R-1/9s immeidately comes to mind.
The R-110B shared numbers with the R-10 (appropriate, when you think about it), and I believe the R-143 is going to share numbers with the R-27/30s.
Go N Train, Have you ever seen this car? Note this is not NYC and there's no Third Rail.
-Stef
I have only seen it in these pictures that you nice ppl have incorporated into your posts. :) The first thing I noticed was no third rail, but after reading all the posts, I have the general idea now... thanks
3 rail is ill-eagle in CT.
All the operable RT cars at BERA have trolley poles on them. Though they put the poles towards one end instead of the middle so at least you can get a natural shot of the car from one end.
Actually, one of the things I learned when researching for the
article earlier this year in the museum's newsletter is that,
in fact, 3rd rail is not illegal in the state of Connecticut.
The real truth is that _exposed_ third rail is illegal.
In 1905, the state legislature banned exposed third rail.
The New Haven RR had some existing third rail operations using
a center-running exposed rail. Since it would have been difficult
to protect it, they simply removed it. At the time, they were
already considering electrification of the mainline from NY to
Stamford. Westinghouse had the contract and they preferred
high voltage AC, which made the most sense over longer distances.
The NYC was already committed to 600VDC using the Sprague-Wilgus
under-running third rail. The original intent there was for
GCT switching and the Park Ave Tunnel to comply with the ca 1902
no-steam ordinance. The third rail system could have been used
legally in CT, but catenary was a better idea from NHRR's standpoint.
At the same time, using 11kV in the tunnels around Grand Central
was an unnecessary engineering challenge, hence 95 years later
we still have the voltage changeover.
Woohoo! If *exposed* is the issue, then we could do something like MeatballNorth does with the underside 3rd rail with enclosed cover. Wouldn't be all that hard to mount subway collector shoes upside down and allow our favorite cars to run as nature intended! I'd be game to mount porcelain and 50 pound rail ... oh happy daze! :)
Our right of way is not, and can not be totally enclosed. We
will always have pedestrian traffic. Therefore, any kind of 600volts
down at ground level is impossible. I suppose we could run
conduit and put plows on all our subway cars. At least our Third
Ave cars would be at home. Of course, the conduit would be below
the water table line.
Not to worry, I know how completely impractical it would be, but since this humble abode is a vault of dreams, I was just having my own. Delusions, maybe? :)
Third rail would certainly eliminate the need to turn a trolley poles around on subway cars, but it's a fantasy.
I'd be just at home with the 600v:)
-Stef
Heh. Ah ... operators too chicken to lead with the pole, Eh? Why ya just takes a broom along, reach out the cab window and knock the pole in the direction of diverging. Real men ain't afraid of sparks. Heh. Just busting.
But it sure would be nice to see an R9, a LoV, a HiV and a Gate car wearing a nice set of shoes. :)
6688 was part of the first order of 400 IRT mainline R units in 1955, contract R-17. They were initially assigned to the 6 and replaced, for the most part, the venerable Gibbs Hi-Vs. St. Louis Car Co. got the contract, the first of many to replace the first-generation subway car fleet.
Now now, Stef! No tin toy toaster on wheels is EVER going to earn the number of your girlfriend up in the 'burbs. :)
True. My girlfriend is quite unique...
-Stef
Heh. Saw her before the top coat and she had lovely blonde ... ummm ... hair ... yeah, that's the ticket. Now tell me you can love a Kawasaki as much. Heh.
And to further defame 6688, it was a trailer too. How insulting not to see 6398 as a control car.
I know. 6398 hasn't even entered service yet. Last time I saw 6398, it was hanging around Concourse Yard. Hope they get the bugs finally worked out of them.
-Stef
how ugly was it ....................lol!!
I dont like what I hear, its not because my second avenue plan was picked, but its that my borough gets screwed and people will still pack on the 4 trains, and the 6 trains, because the MTA hasn't gotten it that the people come from the bronx, and this plan wont help everyone, and what I;m gonna fight for is an extension of the plan that has a line going up Third Avenue (as promised) and 1 to co-op city. Then we'll see a reduction on the lex. with that stub its nothing.
By that logic, because EVERYONE doesn't benefit, NOBODY should benefit. I'm sure the tens of thousands of Manhattan residents who would use the subway if it were built would be pleased over THAT. Besides, the plan is designed to allow the line to be extended into the Bronx should money ever be identified (not that I think it would ever happen).
David
And removing congestion in Manhattan DOES help the Bronx riders, their commute times go down.
Thank you!
I'm so sick of the attitude that because the line doesn't benefit me directly, I don't want to pay for it!
MATT-2AV
it's like the anti-NIMBY.
I don't know.
The NIMBY is one who oppoes construction because it may have some detriments.
I always thought the anti-NIMBY was one like myself, the YIMBY (Yes In My BackYard); an individual who wants something constructed even though it may have some detriments.
This attitude is worse than the NIMBY, in that construction is opposed because the individual doesn't perceive it to have any benefits to their backyard.
I will label it NIIDBY -- Not If It Doesn't Benefit my BackYard.
I'm making this stuff up on the fly,
MATT-2AV
Hello MTA ever heard of Public relations. How does the media make your opinion what they want? Use the same stratgie!
A new CBTC signal system on the Lex could get us 36-40 trains per track per hour. If the 2nd Avenue Subway will simply remove the #5 trains, and not increase the #4 and #6, then they are simply splintering service and ridership between 2 lines, with no net service increase, and little benefit, as Archer did to Hillside.
If that is what is going to happen to the Lex, it ain't worth spending $12 billion to do.
> If the 2nd Avenue Subway will simply remove the #5 trains, and not increase the #4 and #6,
Where did you get that idea from?
- Lyle Goldman
A new CBTC signal system on the Lex could get us 36-40 trains per track per hour.
A new CBTC signal system is not required to get 36-40 tph per track. The current signal system is capable of such operation.
I don't understand how you can say this?
You have x existing capacity on the Lexington Avenue Line. You have y new capacity with the second avenue line. Now, the East side has x+y capacity.
Have you ever ridden the Lex in rush hour? If you did, I don't think you'd claim that increasing capacity would have no benefit.
MATT-2AV
How do you know they will do x+y ? If Archer is any example, they will simple do x/2
Agreed, there should be a second route to 179th-Jamaica when the B division has enough cars. As for Second Avenue, if the MTA is to be believed, in the hazy future of 2012 or whatever, there will be one service off the Broadway-63rd Street connection (maybe the Q train?) and eventually another route from lower Second Avenue. I would hope the 4, 5, and 6 stay the same.
If the MTA develops financial problems on the operating side, they are going to be apparent long before 2012.
Listen, I don't know the whole story of Archer. However, I suspect it is slightly unrelated, as there is no substance to the claim that East Side residents like mystelf will wind up with less if the Second Avenue subway isn't built.
Prove to me that no tracks on Second Avenue (as opposed to 2) are better for reducing crush loading on the Lex.
MATT-2AV
By that logic, because EVERYONE doesn't benefit, NOBODY should benefit. I'm sure the tens of thousands of Manhattan residents who would use the subway if it were built would be pleased over THAT. Besides, the plan is designed to allow the line to be extended into the Bronx should money ever be identified (not that I think it would ever happen).
The 2nd Ave Subway will preclude any other capital project from being considered until well after the 2nd Ave Subway's completion. The project's high cost means that all available funding sources siphoned into this project. So, going ahead with the 2nd Ave Subway means a defacto moratoriam on all other capital spending for 20 years. It means that anyone not getting any benefit from the 2nd Ave Subway can expect no amelioration for the duration (and probably beyond).
What percentage do the tens of thousands of potential 2nd Ave Subway users represent? Less than 2% of the total number of subway riders. So, the project is essentially lavishing 100% of available capital funds to benefit 2% of the ridership.
The 2nd Ave Subway one symbol of the NY's inability to deliver a visible return to the populace who voted to increase their own taxes to get such returns. Its absence remains an embarassement to NY's governmental establishment. However, building a flawed 2nd Ave Subway makes as much economic sense as rebuilding 100+ story skyscrapers.
"building a flawed 2nd Ave Subway makes as much economic sense as rebuilding 100+ story skyscrapers."
Ha! What flaws? I'm ROTFLOL! I challenge you to name the flaws (and successfully defend them)! Please, name them.
I sure hope you really know more about infrastructure design and funding than it sounds like from your message.
What percentage do the tens of thousands of potential 2nd Ave Subway users represent? Less than 2% of the total number of subway riders. So, the project is essentially lavishing 100% of available capital funds to benefit 2% of the ridership.
Where did you get this 2% number?
More importantly, just because you dont get to ride it doesnt mean you dont benefit from it. What about the relief to the Lexington Avenue line? What percent of commuters do they constitute? What about the improvement to vehicle traffic on the East Side? What about the economic benefits?
The 2nd Ave Subway will preclude any other capital project from being considered until well after the 2nd Ave Subway's completion.
Now come on, you dont really believe that, do you? There are other transit needs in the system, but that doesnt mean they will be precluded. There is no reason we cant try to have our cake and eat it too?
This defeatist attitude is really nothing more than whining. Im sorry you wont use the Second Avenue line to commute, but dont ruin the show for the myriad who will, and the countless more who will benefit indirectly. I sense that defeatism in your statement that we should tuck our tails and never build tall buildings again.
Where do you propose we should spend the $12 billion? Find me one other line in more need of relief (via construction of new ROW) based on hard ridership data.
MATT-2AV
Flaw #1: The plans are for a two-track line, correct?
Yep,thats the major draw back in my book.The T.A. compensated for this by space the stations about half a mile apart,but missing whole neighborhoods while doing this[flaw 2]Branches should be built,such as the Rudgers st tunnel[6 ave/Houston to Brooklyn],lower east side[Ave C]or Chyrstie st to the 8th ave subway under Fulton st. Create some stops in midtown[the 60's]with some bypass tracks to form a true express.A branch to Grand Central and some others,I could go on and on.... but the point is,the line is on the drawing boards to be built,in what ever form it may be built.So to all you nah sayers....phooy on you!!!!!
Flaw # 2: No buttonhook to give the East Village subway access. They always get screwed between Houston and 14th east of Second ... one earlier proposal had it curving east to go under A or B, I think, with a stop about St. Mark's/E. 8th Street. Right now, there's NO subway access east of 4th Ave/Lafayette between 14th and Houston. And the 14th Street option is the L train which requires a change to go north or south.
I can understand that funding for a four-track line is not currently available.
That doesn't mean it will never become available.
The line should be built with stations spaced as standard local stations and with provisions for later expansion to a four-track line.
Honestly I could see this run as a day time (5AM-10PM) only line just used to relieve #6 congestion and reduce bus traffic.
The distance between stops is pretty cynical. People will walk a few street blocks extra to avoid those hilly avenue blocks if they live on 1st or York.
when excavating leave for room for another leval of tracks to be built above the locals.
Correcting these "flaws" would make the project cost so much that it can never be built. Sure, the 2nd Avenue Subway project could be made better ... but every new branch, track, station, or connection you add adds to the total cost. At some point, it costs so much you just can't build it any more, and then we're left with what we have now ... nothing. NYC has had many lines planned in the past that would serve many people and contribute to a better transit system, but never got built because we couldn't afford it. No need to add another one to the list.
Make the MTA system profitable (unlikely but I will cover all costs of the subways). I bet if I had control over finaces and day-to-day operations (full compleate control, no questions asked, recommendations okay)I could make the mta not need external money and that it can cover its operation from fare box alone. (after i'am done with it) and no I'am not going to close every line. Actually I promise to not close a single foot of track when I'am managing it.
Please describe how the (NY)MTA system is to be made profitable.
David
This will be long!!
- run shorter trains off peak (4 cars as to 8 R-46, 4 to 10 (R32), or 2 cars to 10 (R32)) or even 2 cars on locals at night (G and R)
- reduce pay to execs, accounting, board members, actual pay them the same amounts as T/Os get to make it fair
- eliminated all cosmetic improvment (mosaics will be cleaned but tiles woun't be replaced, no rebuild like at GCS, 34 herald square, 42 times square)
- no new equipment, no R-14*, no new cars,
- never hire outside firms for supplies and construction; universally interchangeable parts only.
- don't remove graffiti if it doesn't obstruct windows or functionablity
- regenerative brakes on all the General Overhals or trunk replacements.
- no resistor cra* wastes energy no matter what you say. those resistor are gone, use something else for controling speed (syncro motor with variable alternator). ever look at a M-6 (MNRR) in service on a gap station, look at the top and you will see the exucest of a Iron forgry. The heat creates big ripples in the air. and any emited heat is not going for propulsion but in to the air like burning money.
- no rail repair teams waiting around, all of them are platform conductors until they are nessacerey
- streamline the rail mantenence, automatic welder, specially desingned tools for mantenece, rails are pre-fabricated from data on curves and stuff
- replace red tail lights on R-33/36 with leds not turning them off cause they can't get the original blubs
- replace all broken parts on trains with more efficent ones when replacing.
- institute a limitation of liability on all MTA tracks and trains (legal insurance), with a sign posted on every entry to the subway, for example on staris going down you woould put it where the train letters and which way the trans go at this entry and station name is.
- no more contractors every thing is done in house, except for new parts
- increase speed (limtation of liability) so ttrains go faster with no grade time signals
- create true supper express trains connecting all the airports with manhatten and staten island to the subway system. also these supper- express trains have padded seats and are similer to the MNRR cars excpt more eile rom and more doors, but they cost 3.00 to 4.00 dollars.
- conductors and motermen with arresting powers; they can have there head out the window when the train is moving and not be a moving target. this reduces the crime rates and increases ridership.
- all new locals that go along new ROW have a 2.00 dollar charge.
- no new cause its shiny and fancy cra*.
1. The idea of running shorter trains has merit. It has been done off and on over the years.
2. Employees at the upper echelon of the various transit agencies (not just MTA's) tend to make less than high-level employees at private corporations. If we're disappointed with the caliber of the executives now, who will we get when we're paying even less? Incidentally, as far as I am aware, the MTA Chairman has usually taken only a "token" $1 a year salary (and Chairman Kalikow's a real estate mogul with millions, if not billions, and certainly doesn't need the $200,000 or so a year the MTA would provide), and I don't believe the board members get any more than a stipend for what is a part-time job.
3. Station rehabilitations include extensive structural work and, in some cases, ADA compliance. It makes no sense whatsoever to take the wall tiles down in order to structurally rehabilitate the walls behind them, then put the same cracked/stained tiles back up -- assuming any are even salvageable after being taken down. This statement also assumes that operating and capital funds come from one big pot -- they don't.
4. This would mean no service increases in the rush hours, no matter how badly needed.
5. Does this mean that MTA should make everything it uses? That's not very economical.
6. Graffiti is a sign of a situation out of control and is a sure way to discourage ridership -- just look at what happened in the 1970s and early 1980s.
7. The various MTA agencies don't do general overhauls anymore, though I suppose regenerative braking could be installed during what NYC Transit terms SMS.
8. The new cars (which "buildmorelines" doesn't want) have regenerative braking. They use resistors, which are necessary for cases in which the regenerative braking isn't working (there are various scenarios under which it wouldn't be working, that don't indicate a malfunction).
9. Hmmmm...Road Car Inspectors doing platform duty between service calls...that's something to bring to the table during the next contract negotiation (and I'm not kidding).
10. Rail maintenance is already done in the way "buildmorelines" describes, at least to some extent, within the NYCT system.
11. Why confine LEDs to the R-33/36, cars that are about to be replaced by cars that are already being built?
12. Upgrading components is part of NYCT's SMS program.
13. Changing laws is something MTA could support, but couldn't do on its own.
14. How many employees would "buildmorelines" want MTA to have?
15. I certainly have no objection to increasing speeds where possible.
16. I also have no objection to improving access to airports, though I wonder where the BILLIONS OF DOLLARS required to do it would come from (Passenger Facility Charge, maybe?).
17. I'm sure the various police unions would have a field day with that idea, as would the TWU and other unions representing operating employees in the MTA system.
18. So new lines have a higher fare than old lines? I won't reject the idea out of hand, but it sounds like an extensive study would have to be conducted to see whether it would work.
19. Currently, in the NYC subway system, new cars are being purchased and delivered (a) to replace equipment that is rapidly becoming structurally unsound because of the metals from which it was constructed and the cleaners used on said metals over the years, and (b) to increase the size of the fleet so that more service can be provided. To say that new cars are being purchased because they're new and shiny is a gross oversimplification.
David
Here are my reasons for ahting all these new cars!
-who acutaly like the bluish white intiriors of the R-142?
-why do peole whant to sit in the curved seats?
-Whats with the mask (red underlineing near the lights) on the cars thats forign, we don't need poorly built electronics. We need a train that anyone can repair and you don't have to get parts from the manufactuer to repair.
-Also what if the company goes broke and the MTA doen't have a right to reverse enngineer the cars to figure out how to repair them?
-Cosmeticly inside there a pain to look at? (light sensitivity)
-We need to support America's economy not canada's or Japan's.
-Nearly everything that is designed by the asians is cheap cra*. I bet these cars have a lower MTBF than the redbirds when the redbirds came out.
-LCDs in the cab. what if theres a bug (and kawasaki refuse to fix the bug unless $800,000 per car is paid), you can't just disable it!
-No railfan window
-What with the you can't see the controls from the window that is there?
- They are perminently signed for 6 train cause of lighted poute map inside, you can't change that without alot of labor! so why did they have a LED out front. Coundn't they have a Rollsign and save money that the train will never change its sign.
Someone please try to chalange what I say? okay!
-who acutaly like the bluish white intiriors of the R-142?
I do, just becuase you don't does that mean no one else does either?
why do peole whant to sit in the curved seats?
It beats standing, and they are comfortable
Whats with the mask (red underlineing near the lights) on the cars thats forign, we don't need poorly built electronics. We need a train that anyone can repair and you don't have to get parts from the manufactuer to repair.
Great reason to hate the new cars, they got red things up front. Name one train that anyone can repair. Crews have to be trained before they can work on any train, so how is teaching them something new hard?
Also what if the company goes broke and the MTA doen't have a right to reverse enngineer the cars to figure out how to repair them?
Uhh, the MTA doesn't have a right to repair new cars? Do they have to take the train to a dealer to get the oil changed, or what?
Cosmeticly inside there a pain to look at? (light sensitivity)
One man's opinion. Do you go outside a lot? The sun is brighter than the the 142s
We need to support America's economy not canada's or Japan's.
There aren't any US subway car manufacturers anymore. Besisdes, if there were, but the cars would be more expensive to build. And you yourself would still go with the foreign builder becuase you said you can make the system profitable. Buying more expensive stuff would go aganist your plans.
Nearly everything that is designed by the asians is cheap cra*. I bet these cars have a lower MTBF than the redbirds when the redbirds came out.
Do you even know the MDBF for the R142? A new Redbird? I want numbers.
LCDs in the cab. what if theres a bug (and kawasaki refuse to fix the bug unless $800,000 per car is paid), you can't just disable it!
The cars are under 10 year warranty. Kawasaki has to fix it for free.
No railfan window
Awww, poor baby.
What with the you can't see the controls from the window that is there?
Learn to write.
They are perminently signed for 6 train cause of lighted poute map inside, you can't change that without alot of labor! so why did they have a LED out front. Coundn't they have a Rollsign and save money that the train will never change its sign.
The people changing the inside displays probably do others jobs to the train already, so it's not costing the TA that much to work an extra 30 minutes to cange the signs. Front LEDs probably are cheaper to make than making an entire multiple rollsigns.
Someone please try to chalange what I say? okay!
I did.
Who built the R-68s? Westinghouse and Amrail
American French
That was 15 years ago. Westinghouse was acquired by German company ADtranz, which in turn was bought by guess who....Bombardier! Amrail and American French no longer build subway cars.
I still see westinghouse bulbs.
And guess what trainsets don't work properly and are pulled out of service so TA has to find replacements for???
are you Talking about the 68 or 142?
are you Talking about the 68 or 142?
OK, I won't say that the R142 are perfect...yet. I know you actually repair these cars, so I respect what you say about them. But don't you think that once the teething problems are ironed out, they will be good?
You may be confusing something here:
Bombardier, a Canadian company, owns ANF Industrie, a major carbuilder based in the La Defence district of Paris, France. They built the carbodies for the R-68. I do not know if they are the carbuilders of the R-142 (Bombardier is responsible for final assembly of the R142).
Does anyone know who actually supplies the power and trucks to the R-142, and who does the carbodies?
I think the carbodies are built buy Bombardier while propulsion is supplied by Alstom. Trucks, I'm not sure of, but I think they also come from Bombardier.
Thank you.
Did you mean to reply to "buildmorelines"?
Who built the R68s?
Westinghouse : American
Amrail : French
Oh, let me, let me!
[-who acutaly like the bluish white intiriors of the R-142?]
I do! Way better than that nasty puke color used on the older IRT cars!
[-why do peole whant to sit in the curved seats?]
Uhhhh, because they'd rather not stand, maybe.
[-Whats with the mask (red underlineing near the lights) on the cars thats forign, we don't need poorly built electronics.]
Uhhhh, that red thing around the lights is paint. There are no electronics in paint.
[We need a train that anyone can repair]
Ummmm, there is NO SUCH THING as a train that ANYONE can repair. There will NEVER be a train that ANYONE can repair.
[and you don't have to get parts from the manufactuer to repair.]
Where else would get the parts from then? Are you going to make them yourself in your house or something?
-Also what if the company goes broke and the MTA doen't have a right to reverse enngineer the cars to figure out how to repair them?
What kind of a transit agency would sign a contract stating that they do not have the right to repair the trains that THEY bought?
[-Cosmeticly inside there a pain to look at? (light sensitivity)]
If your eyes are so sensitive to light, maybe you should get sunglasses. They are bright, but you won't go blind from them
[-We need to support America's economy not canada's or Japan's.]
Ummmm, there are no American companies that build subway cars. There haven't been any since the mid-80s.
[-Nearly everything that is designed by the asians is cheap cra*.]
Uhhhhh, do you know what a Honda is? Do you know what a Toyota is? Surely you're familiar with what a Sony is. And don't tell me you've never heard of the Bullet Train. Also the R142s and R143s are NOT designed by Asians. As with all NYC subway cars, they are either designed in-house by the MTA, or the MTA contracts out the design to different firms using MTA specs and picks the one it likes best.
[I bet these cars have a lower MTBF than the redbirds when the redbirds came out.]
Go get some real proof before you make that statement. You know, like mileage numbers maybe.
[-LCDs in the cab. what if theres a bug (and kawasaki refuse to fix the bug unless $800,000 per car is paid), you can't just disable it!]
What LCDs in the cab? And since the trains are under warranty, whatever goes wrong under normal usage is fixed for free.
[-No railfan window]
Awwww, poor baby! Get a life already, would you? YOU CAN SEE OUT THE FRONT OF THE CAB DOOR WINDOWS! Try riding the subway in Sao Paolo or Singapore where the cab doors and walls have no windows at all.
[-What with the you can't see the controls from the window that is there?]
OK, here I have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about.
[- They are perminently signed for 6 train cause of lighted poute map inside,]
What the heck is a poute? Route (which is what I think you meant) is spelled with an R, not a P.
[you can't change that without alot of labor! so why did they have a LED out front. Coundn't they have a Rollsign and save money that the train will never change its sign.]
Wrong! They are NOT permanently signed for the 6 train! Those mylar route signs CAN be changed. In fact, during the summer of 2001, they were, when the TA ran R142s 6336-40 and R142As 7211-15 in the same train on both the 2 and 6 lines. When I rode in car 6336 on the 6 that summer, it had the correct 6 line lighted map. Changing the lighted route on the R142s and R143s is no harder than changing the advertisements in the cars. And that is easier than changing all the rollsigns in the older cars. Unless you live under a rock, surely you've noticed how many of the older cars have incorrect route or desination signs displayed. Please don't tell me you haven't noticed that.
[Someone please try to chalange what I say? okay!]
I just did!
-LCD I'am talking about the little screen in the cab of the train (R-142-A 6 line made by kawasaki).
-[-Whats with the mask (red underlineing near the lights) on the cars thats forign, we don't need poorly built electronics.]
Uhhhh, that red thing around the lights is paint. There are no electronics in paint.
It was a mistake.
-[-What with the you can't see the controls from the window that is there?]
OK, here I have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about.
Look in the front window of the r-142-A without going into the cab. Now you see ahead, now look at an angle at the window trying to look toward where the moterman sits, it's fuzzy and turns darker and darker as you proceed to see the controls. Sort of a priavcy screen installed on the window.
-By anyone can repair is a train where there isn't a single programed microchip or IC. So basically you can look for phisical problems (burn damage, cracked traces, pcb craked, broken lead, shortcircet, fryed transistors, none fuctioning capcitors, etc.). Not checking Gates on chips and having 5000 dollar IC analyzers. Or also that you don't need any pin layout sheet.
-[-Nearly everything that is designed by the asians is cheap cra*.]
Uhhhhh, do you know what a Honda is? Do you know what a Toyota is? Surely you're familiar with what a Sony is. And don't tell me you've never heard of the Bullet Train. Also the R142s and R143s are NOT designed by Asians. As with all NYC subway cars, they are either designed in-house by the MTA, or the MTA contracts out the design to different firms using MTA specs and picks the one it likes best.
Okay thats new to me. I don't hold the Asians responsiable but it seems everything that has "made in thailand" breaks within a year in my place. Since they make nearly everything in a 99 cent store. and a 24.99 clock I bought "made in china" broke down faster that an "made in the USA" clock which is 14 years old and is still ticking.
Where the designs for the R-142 designed inhouse or external firm and what firm or arcutect in the MTA did it?
Also what firm or person designed the R-68?
"Nearly everything that is designed by the asians is cheap cra*."
Egads! We have a poster engaging in blind Asian bashing, and another who engages prominently in blind Asian worship. If the two ever meet, it'll be like matter and anti-matter combining -- the world will end! :^)
This a subway form. Not a political/racial forum and these topics are not appropriate. I'll shut-up now about this. But still I don't like the inteirior of the R-110 and up and nothing will change my opinion untill they drastically change there design to be more retro or I see differnt. Maybe if I see the R-143 my idea will change but don't count on it.
There's much about the R-142, including the interior design and some of the other issues you raised, that I dislike. (I've yet to see the R-110 in person but, from the photos I've seen, it looks like a much classier car.) That has nothing to do with the nationality of the car's designers.
Of course products from Asia tend to be cheap. What do you expect? Those poor people are slave laborers. Sometimes I'll buy a "want" product, such as a toy for my little niece, and I feel guilty knowing that an overworked, underpaid minor may have had a hand in making the product.
I shouldn't say this cause I've shut-up but here it goes.
Well do you think slave laborers will make quality parts?
I do spend ALL day checking subtalk (sometimes).
(I feel guilty knowing that an overworked, underpaid minor may have
had a hand in making the product.)
and was able to eat because of it.
That's right, the 10 year old child forced to work 16 hour days in a sweat shop for a dollar or two (maybe) should be greatful that the magnamous captialist has blessed him/her with such employment. And he/she should not be taken in by some wimpy liberal who might suggest some basic work rules or maybe (god help us) a union.............
"Of course products from Asia tend to be cheap. What do you expect? Those poor people are slave laborers."
There's no such single undivided uniform place as Asia. Asia has rich countries and poor countries, free nations and dictatorships. To bring this back on topic, a comment on slave labor is rather misplaced in a discussion of the R142, designed and partially built in Japan, which is NOT a Third World country employing sweatshop labor (not at home, anyhow).
Ultimately, no one person was responsible - and that was a problem.
The R-68's are handsome cars, which needed a lot of "debugging." Subway engineers are fond of referring to them as the subway's "dumb blondes." Westinghouse designed and built the chassis and motors; ANF Industrie (Bombardier subsidiary) built the car bodies. Each builder did a fine job individually, but there was no communication between them. Result: Integrating the parts into one subway car was a nightmare. A major, major screw-up that was successfully addressed only by the determined efforts of the good folks at NYCTA, and only after a lot of work.
So as suggested earlier on subtalk trains should be built from industry standrad parts and assembled by MTA (in-house). Personally I would like to see a car based on the R-68. Who designed the R-68 carbody? and will he (need person, not firm) be around in 20 years? Also where could I get blueprints of the R-68?
You can contact ANF Industrie, Paris-LaDefence, France. For a street address, contact the French commercial attache at the consulate in New York, or contact Bombardier in Quebec. You can get literature and diagrams from them.
Also, I believe Gene Sansome's book, EVOLUTION OFNEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS has a diagram.
I would hope that the MTA would consider purchasing some new 75-fot cars when the R-44's bight the dust, but my guess is that they are going to stick with the 60-foot designs from now on.
75-footer suck cause there to dangerous to have inter car transfers. I have a system of where the hazard is eliminated but I can't share it cause I don't have a patent. Also can't they have the system on MNRR trains for inter car transfers?
What do you consider advantageous about 75-foot cars?
(I'll admit that I'm biased. I find the TA's 75-footers unattractive and unpleasant to ride. That doesn't mean I wouldn't find any 75-footer attractive and pleasant.)
The only reason I dislike the R-44/46 is because there is a no good railfan window. Exculdes breaking into the cab on the last car. Hey I'll recommend that to my friends (Jimmy, not crowbar).
Also they go on queens blvd with ridiculos timers so I asociate them with slowness subconsesly.
Are not the timers applicable to all trains?
Yes they are but on queens blvd. they only use R-46s or R-32s. On the r-46 the privacy window treatment makes it very annoying for railfans to look out and the timers aren't going to make them happier. On the R-32 your having too much fun with the excellent view to care about the timers.
I understand now.
In addition to what Ron points out, timers are often present for a reason.
I will admit that many of our likes and dislikes are based on anecdotal experiences, so I can't fault you for disliking the R-46 for this reason. (I'm afraid I have better reasons, however.)
I would hope that the MTA would consider purchasing some new 75-fot cars when the R-44's bight the dust, but my guess is that they are going to stick with the 60-foot designs from now on.
The basic operational shortcoming for the TA's 75 footers is inadequate door space. This results in increased dwell time, longer travel times and reduced service levels.
Correct. That and the operational restrictions related to not being able to use the 75' car in all "B" Division ROW.
You mean the computer screen at the train operator's control desk? That little screen is needed because it displays important information about the train and the route for the T/O. Should something malfunction on the train, I would think the screen would display it. The T/O should be the first to know when something goes wrong on the train.
As for the way the cab window was designed, I believe that was intentional. T/Os often don't want people to watch them and that may be why you can't see the controls from the cab door window. But at least you can look straight ahead out of that window, something you can't do on subway cars in other cities like Sao Paolo or Singapore. Even the BMT Multi-Section cars that ran from the mid-1930s until 1961, only had a tiny slot in the middle of their transverse cab doors.
Finally, as railfans we are going to have to accept that trains are only going to get more high-tech. Everything is becoming more high-tech, even things we use in everyday life. Eventually what's going to happen is that the older low-tech parts that the older subway cars use, such as DC motors, rollsigns, and the separate throttle and brake handle will stop being made, because the market for them is shrinking fast. Subway systems across the contry and around the world are going high-tech whether we like it or not. And if the MTA were to cancel the rest of the R142 and R143 orders just so we can still have railfan windows, it is going to become even more expensive to maintain the Redbirds. So while the Redbirds may still be running well today, allowing us raifans to look out the first car, eventually the necessary parts on the trains will wear out. And they will be unable to replace them without special-ordering new parts or making them in-house. That is really going to be expensive. It's like owning a 1970 Ford Maverick that's still running, but some of the important parts have worn out. You need to replace them, but you can no longer find the right parts. Well that's what the TA is doing now with the Redbirds. Older products become harder and more expensive to repair as time goes on because the important parts get discontinued.
Honestly, I think the design on the window of the T/O's cab is like that to protect the T/O.
Example. Recent cases of passengers claiming the T/O was masturbating. In fact, I think one guy lost his job over such a ridiculous claim. Now, the TA knows for sure that the passengers can't see the T/O.
How about a viewing license that you sign a contract and pay a fee and you get to be in the lead operator's cab to watch. Kinnda like a movie. The contract ensures the viewers won't annoy the TO and if they do annoy he can kick them out! The fee will allow only civil people to enter (thugs won't pay for access). The viewers get a key that will only work in the front lead transverse cab so they don't enter unautherized cabs. Or instead of a key, a pass is shown to the TO from the platform and he will open the door to the cab for you when you enter the car.
I think TO's would love this idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I belive your right. But can't the TO only have a non-transverse like on the R-32, with the Conductor having a Transverse? Like on the R-62s had?
Theoretically, it is possible. But how many TOs would be willing to sit in a cramped little closet-sized cab (at least on IRT-sized cars) while the CRs in the same trains get a nice wide cab all to themselves?
Keep in mind you haven't really addressed the issues.
The cab window is polarized to keep light from interfering with the T/O's primary responsibility. That's fine, but wouldn't a curtain do the job just as well? (Or a non-transverse cab?) The C/R doesn't need to be shielded from light -- in fact, I would argue that the C/R should be expected to keep the cab door open so he can communicate with the passengers. As for the necessity of transverse cabs -- they're not necessary at all. They're a nice perk, sure, but that perk needs to be weighed against the loss of passenger seating/standing space. A simple camera and video monitor (surely not too much to ask for on a high-tech train!) would allow the C/R to remain on one side of the train, operating doors on both.
I've listed (elsewhere) at least a dozen examples of poor design on the R-142. I hope the list won't also apply to the R-143; I'll find out soon enough.
What's this you say about a $1 token?
I was referring to the MTA Chairman's salary, all but $1 of which is usually turned back to the MTA by the Chairman.
David
And I was attempting to be humorous. Looks like I failed yet again.
Still, there are other way you can make the most out of this new route.Some of those issues i raised were vaild[Dekalb/Rudgers,Ave C,Grand Central and a few others]and could/should be built.If not now,when? Think 20 billion,....my friend.....
Think 20 billion,....my friend.....
What about 20 billion? It's a big number. And, that much money is NOT available, for the Second Avenue Subway or for anything else in NYC.
Are there ways to improve subway service beyond what the currently proposed Second Avenue Subway would provide? Sure. It's just that we can't afford any of it, not even the 2-track Manhattan-only version.
"What about 20 billion? It's a big number. And, that much money is NOT available, for the Second Avenue Subway or for
anything else in NYC. "
A very naive picture. That's only true if our politicians don't know how to secure it. In the grand scheme of things, it's a drop in the bucket.
If West Virginia can get highways built which serve no one (true pork), then NYC can get a subway which will ultimately serve a hundred thousand commuters.
A very naive picture. That's only true if our politicians don't know how to secure it. In the grand scheme of things, it's a drop in the bucket.
I have seen no evidence that our politicians know (or care about) how to secure such a sum of money for transit improvements. We haven't even had the coordination to get the $20 billion already promised to us by the White House for recovery efforts after the worst attack on civilians in American history. At a time when every level of government (and the MTA itself) is facing deficits, I see the MTA's Second Avenue Subway proposal as already being extremely difficult to fund... what is it, $12 billion? Should we really be adding to that cost? Doesn't that sound like a good way to doom the entire project?
Why doesn't a private company build it and maintain it? Like the IRT, then when is goes broke it will be joined to the MTA. But with Top Brass you never know how stupid they can be.
First you have to find a private company that would be stupid enough to build and maintain something that will go bankrupt. While the Enron executives are available, I don't think they have enough available start-up cash at the moment, and based on the IRT/BMT experience, no finanically responsible company would come in unless they had the right to have a say in setting the subway fare, and no pol is going to allow that to happen unless the system hits its late 1970s nadir again and the public is willing to accept a possible fare hike to bail out the system.
I have another idea of a managing company that mantains everything to do with the subways. They would be a for profit company (unlikly), that gets money from the MTA to manage the subway, stock it, pay it's bills and etc. Also it would use the MTA for political power. Also this company manages day-to-day operations. This company should made up of loyal dedicated railfans and rail supporters. Not people that just sign papers and are reluctant to commit to 2nd ave.
The MTA simply wastes more money on studys because they are afraid to do anything and worry of the problems of such an undertaking. If I were kept thinking wether to step outside the door each morning because a million things could kill me. I will not do any thing but waste time instaed of doing something usefull outside .If they stoped giving new money on the studys and just set aside all the money used for studies so they could build it. Also they need a firm commitment to the project and not be as reluctant as a immature boyfriend to marrying his romantic girlfriend of 2 years (sorry bros but thats the only analogy I could think of (reading magazine while writing)).
The MTA conducts studies of proposed new lines because that is what is required under the law (federal and state).
David
Your skepticism about politician's' ability to deliver is reasonable.
However, is the right answer to give up (as you appear to)? How about putting forth effort to hold them to their promises?
There are a lot of ways you can do that. In fact, if you can post here, you can accomplish that as well. Contact the Manhattan Borough President's Office; get friendly with your local city council person; state rep. etc. Get your neighbors to sign petitions demanding that the rebuilding money be forked over and write letters to your Congressman indicating his (her) reelection may depend on it.
This is not a trivial effort. You may feel you don't have the time for it.
But if you have time to post here, you have time to write a letter.
"His or her election will depend on" approch is good do you know any others?
I write in to my elected officials every so often about transit issues. I have never received a response having anything vaguely to do with my letter though. And most politicians in NYC are proud to be NIMBYs, and proud to keep development at a standstill, because that's what most voters want. This is a city where neighborhood residents fight against parks (Brooklyn Heights), expanded transit (Astoria), and museums (Downtown Guggenheim). No one wants anything to be built in their backyard, even if they might benefit from it.
Good news: you're writing. I applaud your efforts to involve yourself.
Bad news: You're not reading past the surface, not applying context, so you end up drawing the wrong conclusions. Worse, you give up far too easily. Politicians are let off the hook if they know you'll give up after the first letter.
Example: There is a NIMBY problem in Astoria over the N train extension to LaGuardia. How big of a problem? Not clear. Part of it depends on deals struck within city council.
But there is no NIMBY problem at all over Second Avenue subway. Community-wise, it's a slam-dunk, and no NYC politician will oppose it. It does require a substantial budget. But since Gov. Pataki, Assembly Speaker Silver and Senate Majority Leader Bruno already signed off on that, trouble with local politicians is not an issue here. The issue is federal funding, and New York has never had a better chance of getting it. Ditto for East Side Access (especially since the Governor really wants that accomplished). And East Side Access is partially built.
Don't worry about the form letters. Write, and write again. Call up your Congressman's office and introduce yourself to the staff. Persistence is rewarded.
Transit projects take a long time. AirTrain was born in 1994, reborn two years later in abbreviated form, and it is now a reality. Do you have any idea how long it took Hudson-Bergen Light Rail to be proposed and built? But it's operating today.
Lots of people whined and moaned about the 63rd St Connector. But it's here, imperfect though it is. The Manhattan Bridge's south side is open for subway traffic, and the north side is on schedule. Insurance will pay for the South Ferry and PATH repairs, and MTA is already rolling on that.
This is New York, so we rag on everything.
I have been waitinhg a long time for these projects. I can tell you from personal experience that my six years of personal effort (letters, phone calls, attending hearings, leafleting)and lots of frustration paid off in terms of making a contribution to both AirTrain and the 63rd St Connector service plan (2 of my ideas were accepted and are being implemented!). My greatest satisfaction was seeing Community Board 9 vote overwhelmingly to approve AirTrain after an airline lobbyist got in my face and very nearly tried to slug me because I embarrassed him thoroughly in front of board members.
Gene Russianoff has been doing that longer than I have, and he did a great deal to help get the graffitti off the trains.
So, Dave, are you gonna go back to being a wuss, or are you going to continue what you started, and not let yourself get discouraged?
I'm rooting for you.
:0)
So, Dave, are you gonna go back to being a wuss, or are you going to continue what you started, and not let yourself get discouraged?
Well if you put it that way... =)
Attaboy.
"If West Virginia can get highways built which serve no one (true pork), then NYC can get a subway which will ultimately serve a hundred thousand commuters."
I'm so tired of my tax dollars going to waste in welfare(*) states (such as West Virginia) while I have to cram into a packed Lex train every day.
It's time New York gets the funding it rightly deserves,
MATT-2AV
* wellfare state = a state that takes in far more federal funds than it contributes in taxes, typically in the form of pork, and in no way, shape, or form is intended to refer to citizens on welfare.
Thank you!
A double phooy from me. I'm getting a bit tired of this. And thank you for noting the difference between a shortcoming and a flaw.
There's a whole laundry list of things I'd like, but I'm not going to see all of them. If money for transit grew on trees, then I wouldn't be arguing for the Second Avenue subway as proposed.
Instead of being defeatist, I'll take what I can get.
MATT-2AV
How is that a flaw?
So what are you saying, David? If we can't have two tracks, then we shouldn't have anything at all?
Hey, I'd like 6 tracks. I'd like a lot of things in life. But prove to me that two tracks aren't better than zero.
MATT-2AV
The 2nd Avenue subway has already been flunked by FTA twice. If they use solely state funds to build it, we will see nothing else until 2016. $12 billion for an East Side "C" train doesn't cut it.
"If they use solely state funds to build it, we will see nothing else until 2016. $12 billion for an East Side "C" train doesn't cut it."
1. What else do you want to see in the terms of large, rapid-transit infrastructure construction in the next 15 years? What line is there in the City that the MTA has deemed to be in greater need of relief than the Lex?
2. Prove to me that no tracks is better than two tracks on the East Side, even if you liken it to the west side C train. How doe the 2nd Avenue subway (as proposed) not cut it, as you say?
I storngly suggest that you ride the Lex in rush hour, and then come back to SubTalk,
MATT-2AV
You are forgetting that it cannot be built without federal money or it will sop up all capital in the region, new construction or otherwise. You can moan and groan all you want about the Lex, but a new signal system will allow 40 TPH, and even greater chance that FTA will again flunk 2nd Avenue, and it won't happen. Go argue with them, not me.
"The 2nd Avenue subway has already been flunked by FTA twice."
That, by itself, doesn't mean a whole lot except that NY needs to beef up its political muscles in Washington.
By building the line as planned, it will forever be plagued by stops that are close enough to slow down the line considerably yet not close enough to conveniently serve the population of the area.
I'm suggesting that, even if costs a bit more time and money, the line be built with future expansion in mind. If the line proves popular enough to warrant expansion to a four-track line wiht true express service, it can then be widened.
But by the current plans, that's just not an option.
"I'm suggesting that, even if costs a bit more time and money, the line be built with future expansion in mind. If the line proves popular enough to warrant expansion to a four-track line wiht true express service, it can then be widened.
I agree with you completely.
And the motivation for doing this is more psychological then financial. My concept is to establish certain stations along the line as express stations, such as 125th, 86th, 42nd, 14th, and so on...
It has already been established that the line will be built as a deep-bore tunnel (in most areas). Because 2nd Avenue isn't remotely wide enough for express and local tunnels on the same level, and to reuse the existing tunnel segments north of 99th Street, a four track alignment would most likely be two local tunnels over two express tunnels. We see something similar to this on the Lexington Avenue line.
What if you were to build these designated express stations with a lower level, and then not build the connecting tubes? The incremental cost to the station construction is small compared to the tunneling expense.
There is precedence for this approach in the system. For example, on both levels of the 63rd & Lexington station, half of each platform is reserved for the future Second Avenue line. Why not build a lower level reserved for the future Second Avenue express line?
I like to refer to this as the "ask an inch, take a mile" approach. This way, we have our foot in the door for future expansion. We haven't asked for too much, giving the pols a chance to balk. We also haven't burned any bridges, precluding further expansion of the system.
Just one time, let the welfare states pay for New York instead of the other way around.
"By building the line as planned, it will forever be plagued by stops that are close enough to slow down the line considerably yet not close enough to conveniently serve the population of the area.
As planned, it is basically a local line. But if I can't take the (4), (5), and (6) to get to work, I'd take just the (6) instead of nothing at all.
MATT-2AV
[It has already been established that the line will be built as a deep-bore tunnel ]
Weren't the stations to be cut and cover, close to ground?
[The incremental cost to the station construction is small compared to the tunneling expense. ]
I think it has been said here that stations are vastly more expencive than plain tunnels.
Arti
My apologies. When I said line, I was referring to the tubes, not the stations. Yes, I had thought the stations were to be built as cut-and-cover as well.
From my experience with excavation, there are two conflicting rules. On one hand, as with most construction, there is a great economy of scale. Yet on the other hand, the deeper you go, the more ancillary construction is required.
Of course deeper stations may be more expensive, but if it turns out that since you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound, then I imagine that excavating down another 20 feet for, say, five stations would add maybe $1 billion to the total cost. So now the line is $13 instead of $12 billion. Not bad, considering how hard it will be to come back and add express stations.
MATT-2AV
I agree with you completely.
What a surprise!
It has already been established that the line will be built as a deep-bore tunnel (in most areas). Because 2nd Avenue isn't remotely wide enough for express and local tunnels on the same level, and to reuse the existing tunnel segments north of 99th Street, a four track alignment would most likely be two local tunnels over two express tunnels. We see something similar to this on the Lexington Avenue line.
Why do you think 2nd Avenue is too narrow for four tracks? Broadway has four side-by-side tracks, and south of 59th it's narrower than 2nd (between 34th and 23rd, it has only four lanes, including parking). Two levels would be better than nothing but doesn't have the convenience of cross-platform transfers.
What I'd suggest is building a two-track line along the east half of 2nd Avenue, with island platforms at future express stations and wall platforms at future local stations. Include full-width mezzanines. When the money comes along to add actual express service, the two-track line would be twinned along the west side of the street and new staircases would provide access to the new platforms.
Sounds like a good idea, and a thought towards future expasion
"I agree with you completely."
"What a surprise!"
Hey, I might have disagreed with you in the past, but I never disrespected your opinion.
"Why do you think 2nd Avenue is too narrow for four tracks?"
Okay, let me clarify. In theory, 2nd Avenue isn't wide enough for four tracks. However, practically speaking, it would be much more difficult to build four tracks all at the same level for any significant distance. There are two reasons for this:
1) The closer you get to buildings, the more underpinning is required. The more underpinning, the greater the cost.
2) There is a large sewer main that runs up 2nd Avenue to 110th Street, where it makes a sharp turn to the East. Many don't realize this, but sewer mains of that size are extremely difficult and costly to relocate.
"What I'd suggest is building a two-track line along the east half of 2nd Avenue, with island platforms at future express stations and wall platforms at future local stations. Include full-width mezzanines. When the money comes along to add actual express service, the two-track line would be twinned along the west side of the street and new staircases would provide access to the new platforms."
Across the platform transfers are one of the true beauties of the New York City transit system. If there is a way to do them on Second Avenue, I'm all for it.
Another idea is to build the express stations with unused center tracks. The express tracks could rise from a lower level and then descend between stations.
MATT-2AV
A nice idea.
Well, a budget obstacle more than a flaw. I would prefer a four-track service, but budget is a problem...
-----Yes but build it a double track double leval like Lex IRT from 51st to 125st atleast. High speed switches mean trains will wait while other trains pass. whats with that? for that you can another bus route. Subway traffic jams? wait while other trains pass ahead? High speed switches? do you really think they will install them if the 2nd ave subs built. By that time there will be no more money to afford high speed switches.
------Sounds like a exec read some thing on fully computerized control (no T/O) with sceduals for trains planned down to the milisecond, and he aplied that to T/O operated trains. Hey T/O's are you going to have 99.9% ontime relibility? What about the time the doors are opened and closed has to be exact to the second. Also your scedual changes every 5 seconds because a train ahead is delayed? (computerized scedual brought to your CAB).
-----If the MTA implaments a express/local system on 2 tracks it will never be possiable without massive changes to how trains operate and controled jobs may be lost.
-----If they take the other approch, MTA will have mandatory sceduals, and ATC system will be installed and then you have a system that will be abondoned within 2 months because you can't keep scedual and there will simply be too much delay too make it worth to operate.
-----Also if you have a express train it will be stuck behind a local train and that will get rid of the reason for express trains. Then if there is no express train and they can walk 3 blocks and will take the 4,5 which get rid of the reason for constructing the 2nd ave sub because no one will use it and they would rather be stuck in extremly unconfortable sceans.
----- I wonder how the 2nd ave sub will look like on
http://www.infiltration.org/
Stephen,
It's good to read your entertaining posts again. As usual, you mix apples and oranges together, compare issues without a frame of reference, assume data you haven't collected and would misinterpret if you did...
But I am very entertained!
Ron
why 20 years? Wasn't the whole original IRT system built in 6 years and that is double the distance of the 2nd ave (if built upper east side) so in 20 years you should have 3 full length Ave subways.
Chris,thats why 125th street will be on Lexington ave ''insted'' of 2nd ave,so tranfers will be available to the Bronx trains and neighborhoods.I know this is something you dont want to hear,but with the chances of the new line being built,why beef about it? The new subway will reach the Bronx one day via the 6 Pelham line,but that will take time and money.... so overall,be happy that the line is on the map to be.....after 20 years waitng,[plus another 10-15 years for constuction]I will be verrrrrry happy......
You have to think of this, which is kind of a bad analogy. Why would they build the 63rd street connector if the Brooklyn and the Bronx people won't benefit at all? It's a bit of a bad analogy because this second avenue line is an actual subway line. But you catch my drift.
There isn't even the money to fund the "stub" Second Avenue Line, let alone an extension to the Bronx.
Obviously, you've never had to fight the crowds at the Upper East Side Lexington stations at the A.M. rush hour, where people stand several layers deep waiting just to GET ON a train. You often just get a chance to move up in position, waiting for the next train.
That is pretty ridiculous.
Just because you don't get what you want doesn't mean there will be no benefits. If I recall correctly, funds for even the stubway haven't been secured, let alone a full-length line with extensions to the Bronx and Brooklyn.
Let's take the example of a stubway from 63rd to 125th Streets, and riders heading downtown in the morning rush. If you had thought about the problem, you'd realize that the number of patrons boarding downtown Lexington Avenue trains between 125th and 63rd would be greatly reduced. Are you going to tell me that nobody boards a downtown train at 86th Street in the morning?
Moreover, you have to start small. Beginning construction at 63rd Street is the most logical place.
Of course an extension to the Bronx is better than a stubway. However, to waste what money the MTA doesn't have with frivolous disputes is an antisocial act towards everyone in the City, regardless of their degree of direct benefit.
MATT-2AV
What the TA has to do is not build the line so as to preclude a Bronx extension. There need to be provisions in the tunnel north of 125th Street that will allow the line to be extended into the Bronx when the money is available.
I wholeheartedly agree.
This is why I am staunchly opposed to orienting the station in an east-west manner, as some as proposed.
If monies were available, and I was making the decisions, I would try to build the tunnel underneath the Harlem River during the stubway phase of construction. It makes Bronx extension much less psychologically daunting and politically appealing.
MATT-2AV
Where can I find information about the approved routing of the Second Avenue Line?
- Lyle Goldman
www.mta.info has information under "planning studies"
David
You can find it by clicking here.
MATT-2AV
I;m gonna fight for is an extension of the plan that has a line going up Third Avenue (as promised) and 1 to co-op city. Then we'll see a reduction on the lex. with that stub its nothing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why not ask for a new extension or line right to your living room while you're at it.
And as far as your plan for co-op city, did you ever stop to think that maybe some people like the idea of protecting their property from the subway system?
And as far as your plan for co-op city, did you ever stop to think that maybe some people like the idea of protecting their property from the subway system?
ever hear of a gun? dogs? neiborhood watch? Your friends walking with baseball bats? Not to kill you but keep watch.
Ignorant people, perhaps. Most New Yorkers, thank fully, understand the subway's value...
I fully understand the value of the subway. But I also understand some of the benefits a neighborhood can realize by not being near one.
Let's use Bayside as an example. It's completely isolated from the subway. From what I can tell, it's the same neighborhood today that it was 10 years ago when I worked in the Bayside area. And it will be the same 10 years from now as well. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Bayside's status as one of Queens nicest neighborhoods wasn't achieved, in part, by being protected from Western Queens.
You don't know much about Bayside, do you? Your post showed so much ignorance I was tempted not even to dignify it by responding. My wife's family lived in Bayside for 30 years; we bth lived there, shopped there, worked nearby. Bayside has undergone a lot of changes in many ways - and, along with the rest of the city, has gotten better.
The presence of the subway and the LIRR (LIRR is very important to Bayside)encourage higher density and higher rents, it's true. Whether Bayside residents want that is an open question. There would be some controversy, to be sure.
Places like Coop City already have high density and could use subway service. More subway service in Bayside would tend to increase density. More subway service in Coop City would address the density already there.
As to the "protection" you're referring to, one can only speculate as to its origin. I've heard similar things from certain upper-income people who want maids and butlers to show up for work without being seen on the street and disappear at the end of the day; from whites who are openly racist and prejudiced, from skin-head types, and other assorted folks with no brains, social skills or manners.
Enough said.
[I've heard similar things from certain upper-income people who want maids and butlers to show up for work without being seen on the street and disappear at the end of the day]
Perhaps they should advocate for a subway system dropping those maids off in the basement :-)
Arti
They could charge extra for the elevator ride to the back entrance. :0)
Look at what I said in my original post. Now look at your response.
My point is that a neighborhood may actually maintain itself, by not adding subway service. You're babbling about the LIRR. Why? Because my argument is so clear and accurate, that you need to twist it and bend it to somehow make me look wrong.
I see so many negative changes taking place in the once beautiful Forest Hills, which are clearly the result of the nearby subway station. When I go to Bell Blvd, I feel like I'm in another city. A nicer city.
"I see so many negative changes taking place in the once beautiful Forest Hills, which are clearly the result of the nearby subway
station. When I go to Bell Blvd, I feel like I'm in another city. A nicer city. "
Beauty is often in the eye of the beholder. An ugly, hateful, hard heart leads one to an ugly, hateful attitude. About cities and people.
I pity your bitterness and hatred of others.
Beauty is often in the eye of the beholder
---------------------------------------------------------------
Good point. I know someone who describes the graffitti that once dominated the subways as "beautiful murals". Would you like one on the side of you home Ron?
Graffitti appears in Bayside too. In fact, it's scrawled by kids who grow up in Bayside, Little Neck and county territory.
Maybe it's the western Queens folks who need protection from Bayside...
As long as they don't cover my windows!
You don't know what you are talking about. I don't know of any cases where the property values have gone down because of subway lines being put in. If you want an example of where property values go up look at the north west extension of the MBTA red line north Cambridge and west Somerville Davis square were working class area since the red line opened in 1985 the property values have gone way up.
Did the same happen in Malden when the Orange Line extension opened in 1975?
True. And in downtown Atlanta when MARTA opened (Rents on a 1-bedroom apartment up $100/month), and Roosevelt Island when the 63rd St extension opened in 1989.
Also: Bethesda-Chevy Chase when Washington Metrorail's Red Line opened.
Many other examples....
Not to the same extent there has been significant commercial development in the area but the property values haven't change much relative to the rest of the Boston area. One change has been that a lot of Asians have moved probably because the orange line provides easy access to Chinatown.
You don't know what you are talking about. I don't know of any cases where the property values have gone down because of subway lines being put in. If you want an example of where property values go up look at the north west extension of the MBTA red line north Cambridge and west Somerville Davis square were working class area since the red line opened in 1985 the property values have gone way up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dand, before we continue, PLEASE SO ME WHERE THE F*CK I SAID SUBWAYS LOWER PROPERTY VALUE? Don't put words in my mouth.
Understand the amazing thing about neighborhoods here in NY. They can deteriorate to the point where decent people want to move elsewhere, and those who are replacing them, will pay top dollar to live in a decaying neighborhood.
My point is very simple. Neighborhoods that are isolated from the NYC Subways will hold up better than those that have subway service.
If by "better" you mean more upper class and more spread out, that may be true since the subways are "mass" trnsportaion, by definition. But it doesn't have to be so. The Upper East Side and Forest Hills (despite what you say) are still damn nice, despite having subway lines. Ditto many parts of western Queens (from which you seem to want "protection"). And there are many parts without lots of subways that aren't so nice either.
How can anything ever be built with that kind of attitude. No subway line is going to benefit everyone directly. When they built the original subway line in 1904, it only served a small portion of manhattan, but look what it expanded into. If people had that attitude back then, we would still be fighting about where to start the subway system. Most subway extentions INDIRECTLY benifit s everyone. Some a lot more than others. But you got to start somewhere.
1. a manhattan section of a 2nd ave subway is better than nothing as long as it has provisions for links and continuatiosn to as many other lines as possible.
2. getting people to use a 2nd ave subway over the irt lex is completely dependent on outer boro connections. unless a transfer is absolutely necessary, most people opt to stay on the train that they originally got on at their home station. for 2nd ave trains to carry substantial non Upper East riders they need to replace at least some of the lex's bronx routeage.
3. i have an idea that might cost a pretty penny for bronx track and station work, but it would do beautiful things for service:
make a transfer available between the 2nd ave and lex at 125th st. from there, run the 2nd ave under the lex to 149 where it could transfer with the 2 train and continue north along the 4 trains present route (el would need to be converted for wider trains)
this would reduce the lex's carrying load to the remaining three bronx irt routes. ive noticed that all three are basically slow moving locals because of the 3 track system. i know it will never happen beacause of expenses, but the 6 and the 2,5 come very close together in the vicinity of the 2,5 simpson street station. if the 6 were re-routed slightly between hunts pt ave and the bronx river, a new combine droute station could be built near the present simpson st station. this would allow with a little feat of engineering the lex to use its 2 3rd tracks as a split line express. 2 trains could run local along their present route, 6's could be split into an east and west and travel local along each of irt lines to the new simpson station. then 4's and 5's could each run express north on the 6 and south on the 2,5 between 125th and simpson. from there, 4's could continue to pelham park and 5s could continue as is to dyre. rush hours could still use the remaining 3rd tracks by having 5s go one way express past 2's south of e 180 and one half of the 6's could extend along their former route and let 4's do one way express on the 3rd track.
mayeb this sounds crazy but i think it would drastically increase the quality of bronx access to manhattan.
The original plan was to send the 2nd Avenue up the Dyre and Pelham Lines, but I don't see that happening. :(
I agree.Plus there should be express service on the 2 avenue line.
It could be. The half-height corrugations on the car side are those you'd find on an R38, and the platform edge looks like NYC too.
Definitely NYC. The platform edge is a dead (sorry) giveaway. The corrugations look R-42ish to me.
I have heard of this 12-9. If I was one of the train crew, I would have been up chucking and cring for mommy. I was told about that web sits with other ones. I still have not goen to it.
Robert
If you have PhotoShop or some other photo-manipulation program, blow the picture up to a large size and look carefully. There are a number of clues that indicate clearly it's a cut-and-paste.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It does look like a rubber dummy but it's still cool to bring into the shop. Peter
Maybe someone can do it up with Osama Bin Draggin ...
If you have PhotoShop or some other photo-manipulation program, blow the picture up to a large size and look carefully. There are a number of clues that indicate clearly it's a cut-and-paste.
Which doesn't surprise me. Rotten.com is always entertaining, but it's no secret that many of their most shocking photos are, shall we say, authenticity-challenged.
Your right, after look at it more closly it dose look like a dommy. There is no body under the neck. But I still have heard of one like this, I was told about it while posing in school car.
Robert
OH you nasty SubTalkers. www.rotten.com is the favorite of the computer literate car inspectors. I'm printing out to bring into the shop. At least it doesn't look like an R142 door failure to me. Peter
It is in New Yrok,but it looks like a R40 or R42.I sort of can tell it was by poor brakes so te R38 isn't a likely suspect.
Oh please.That is so fake.If that was to be real then there would be chunks of skin on the yellow line.Plus it looks like the legs are intact.
Picture is probably from the same people who came up with the guy in a wintercoat standing on the observation deck with a plane about to crash 30 stories below him.
There is a whole collection of pics with that guy in them some locations include: Hindenburg Crash, Titanic, Exxon Valdez Etc.
He's the Real Tourist Guy
2:00 a.m. 20.Nov.2001 PST
The 'Tourist Guy' isn't Brazilian after all. He's a 25-year-old Hungarian man who says his name is Peter. But that's all he's willing to reveal. By Jeffrey Benner.
--Mike
Looks like the side of an R-40S. For what it's worth, I highly doubt that the pix is for real. FOr one thing, I've never seen a real space case where the victim's head is involved. Usually, they get caught between the pelvis and the upper chest. And, yes, I've seen several - mostly in my years as a road Car Inspector.
Thanks for ruining my breakfast!
I definitely do not recommend the squeamish to look at that picture. It is rather graphic to put it mildly.
#3 West End Jeff
Unless the crushed party had the world's worst hairpiece surely that is a dummy.
I'm sure that it was a dummy or at least we hope that it was a dummy.
#3 West End Jeff
The head seams to be part of the car but the blood trail seems fake.
Lets take a trip down Memory Lane.
Do you remember when IRT Route 9 only ran between Dyre Avenue and 180 Street-Bronx Park? (The old NYW&B Station) Closed down for the night and used Gate Cars.
Do you remember when a trip on PATH from Hudson Terminal to Newark required the purchase of a $.40 ticket and not a PATH token? The ticket was collected by the conductor between Journal Square and Harrison.
Do you remember when IRT Lo-V's stopping at Grand Central northbound in the evening rush opened the front door allowing you to enter through the motorman's position?
Do you remember when a ticket was necessary to transfer between Franklin Avenue on the IND and Franklin Avenue on the BMT?
Do you remember when a free transfer was issued to the B-29 bus at Marcy Avenue Station?
Do you remember the use of two conductors on R-types running on the #4 Lex-Jerome?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Do you remember when a ticket was necessary to transfer between Franklin Avenue on the IND and Franklin Avenue on the BMT?
Wasn't this the case until just a few years ago?
Yes. For the last year or two before the shuttle was closed for reconstruction, paper MetroCards were dispensed from bus fareboxes in the booths. Before that, old-fashioned bus-style transfers (like the ones used now for GO's) were used.
Ah yes!
A way for young teens to make pocket money after school. Bang out 20-40 at a time at a machine and then sell them on the street for 25į. When TA closed down the shuttle their world was shattered. The kids had to go back to shoplifting the local bodega and rap-dancing on the subway during PM rush hours.
And they also used the same system at Church Avenue F train (B-35 bus) and 9th. Ave. West End after they discontinued the Culver shuttle.
How about the "See Note A" message on all the subway maps up until 1969 about the Myrtle-Jay transfer rules, and how the transfer ticket system was only good the other way when boarding at Broadway-Nassau in Manhattan, which was the substitution for the old Park Row station and the Brooklyn Bridge crossing (I had visions back then of the TA's crack transfer ticket police squad watching to make sure riders abided by that rule).
I remember the H&M tickets.
>Do you remember when IRT Route 9 only ran between Dyre Avenue and 180 Street-Bronx Park? (The old NYW&B Station) Closed down for the night and used Gate Cars. <
The line was never offically called the 9 - at least not for public use(although the front roll signs on R12/14 and R15 did have the listing). It was always Dyre Avenue line or Dyre Avenue Shuttle.
Actually that was a bit before my time although I know the history.
>>Do you remember when a ticket was necessary to transfer between Franklin Avenue on the IND and Franklin Avenue on the BMT? <<
I have a bunch of those in my collection.
Let me add a "Do you remember"
Do you remember the paper transfers used in the 1970's between the IRT 7 at 5th Av and the IND 6th Av (BB, D, F) at 42nd St/6th Av?
Here's another: Do you remember the two long, wide ramps at the Union Square station that went down to the Canarsie line? I believe they were sealed up in the mid-'70's.
One is now used as a part of the TAPD. Not sure if it's a dressing room or storage area. And the other side is used as a storage area for TA. There are ways of still getting up there!
i also remember the tickets on the h&m train from newark,the k-class also where equiped with cab signals. how about the grade crossing at west side ave. in jersey city( i think)
other things i remember are the GG-1's on south and west bound passenger trains at newark. i was a old prr fan.
GG-1 GG-1 GG-1 I bring those pictures into work.....they think I'm nutz. GG-1 makes R142 look like what it is. Peter
Wouldn't you just love to see the "pepsi can" effect of a GG1 at full bore pushing a 142 into a brick wall? :)
I wanna save surplus munitions from Afghanistan for Bombardier....won't the anticlimb fingers prevent the 'Pepsi Can' effect? Hey I need the new work and want to be around long enough for the useless warranty to expire so I can do more than the 'TA shuffle.'
Anticlimbers are there merely to prevent cars from "doing it doggie style" and birthing more hippos. :)
But GUARANTEED, you get a GG1 pushing a 142 against an immovable object, it'll compress a 142 to 6 inches long.
Be careful what you say, you may have to ride in one of those R-142's someday!
I'll wait for the 143's and 160's ... either that or I'll bring a can opener. :)
The GGI best electric loco made in America. Just rushing thru in Tuscan with the Afternoon Congressional 15 cars behind it
And in 1953, one of them proved just how sturdy they are when it went right through Union station in DC and crashed through the floor. Went on for many years of happy service afterwards too. Nice rail tanks. :)
I have a picture of it in one of my books on the GGI
I have a small collection of my own including the crane yanking it back out. That's the kinda stuff I collect ... maybe a future Fox series, "when trains collide" ... while I don't go for 12-9's, I am always fascinated by twisted metal. Must be that Coney Island Yard thing. :)
I wonder if that was what we used to transfer to the Broadway line on Saturday afternoons in the late 60s. IIRC it/they led to the Canarsie platform at about mid-station. Now there's a flight of stairs at the extreme southern end of the southbound platform of the Broadway line which leads directly to the Canarsie platform. In fact, you can see Brooklyn-bound trains from the top of the stairs.
Union Square used to have a couple of ramps going down from the mezzanine level to the Canarsie line. One began between the BMT and IRT stations and the other started at the southwest end of the BMT mezz and went to the far western stairs of the LL. The high crime rates in the late 70s and the downhill urination problem with the ramps and the homeless -- not good for the smell at the east end of the Canarsie Union Square platform -- led the MTA to brick `em up until the 90s rehab, when the ramp between the BMT and IRT was reopened (with a stair replacing part of the ramp).
Yes to all, also a ticket between the IRT/IND at Yankee Stadium. Shuttles on the West End in AM Rush Hours between Bay Pkwy and C>I> and on Culver between CI and Kings Hwy. Sunday Summer Ecpress service on the Brighton by the Franklin Shuttle, double fares on the Rockaway Line, and a conductor collecting fares on the Dyre Shuttle with a Johnson Fare Box that was used on the bus, and a extra nickle on the Q44 over the Whitestone Bridge
I remember the tickets being required on the Hudson Tubes if you wanted to go to Newark.
I remember seeing passengers board the Lo-V's through the motorman's cab on the Lexington.
The other items, I cannot say whether I experienced them or not.
Question...WHY two conductors on the R-types on the #4???
Question...WHY two conductors on the R-types on the #4???
The Lo-V's required twp conductors in additon to a motorman. During the phase in period with the R-types it simplified crew assignments so a three man crew was always available.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Oh, for the good old days when a six car train of BU's required five gatemen.
Before you ask me, Yes, Lincoln really did have a beard!
Some other cars way back in the 50s also required 2 conductors, butI can t remember which ones. It was when they extended the trains extra cars during rush hours. I think it may have been the Standards but I am not sure
Two conductors were used on 11-car E and F trains. In fact, you can see one conductor between the first and second cars of the train Henry Fonda gets off of at the beginning of The Wrong Man. IIRC the first car was R-4 495.
>>Two conductors were used on 11-car E and F trains. In fact, you can see one conductor between the first and second cars of the train Henry Fonda gets off of at the beginning of The Wrong Man. IIRC the first car was R-4 495. <<
11 car E & F trains? When was this?
A 10 car set of R1-9 units just fits IND stations with only a couple of extra feet to spare. How did they get all 11 cars to platform? Or did passengers from the 11th car have to walk to the next car to exit the train?
11 car E & F trains? When was this?
ca 1953 - 1961
A 10 car set of R1-9 units just fits IND stations with only a couple of extra feet to spare. How did they get all 11 cars to platform? Or did passengers from the 11th car have to walk to the next car to exit the train?
The original IND platforms were 660 feet long. All 11 cars opened on the platform.
Married pairs killed off a possible ten percent increase in service.
If a few (a lot) of marriages were busted up, or triples created, and the odd count could be achieved again.
Car shortage holds it back.
Send L.I.R.R. M-1s to S.I.R.T, fleece the S.I.R.T of their R/44s (60) and free up Some R/32s or R/38s for the "SINGLEING or TRIPLING.
Viola! 11 car trains in a jiffy.
avid
Thats what I've always said ,sent the M1 cars to SIRT[after rehab.They would be great over there.real commuter cars for a commuter line.
I would modify the M-1's with 2-2 seating, and rip out the bathrooms.
>>> Married pairs killed off a possible ten percent increase in service. <<<
I think it is a bit more correct to say that the requirement of a second conductor is the main reason that there are no 11 car trains. A 10% increase in capacity with a 50% increase in labor cost just does not compute for the TA.
Tom
I missed that point.
I think it is a bit more correct to say that the requirement of a second conductor is the main reason that there are no 11 car trains. A 10% increase in capacity with a 50% increase in labor cost just does not compute for the TA.
The old service was 34 E's and F's at 11 cars each for 22,440 car-feet/hr and 10 Brighton Beach Locals with 8 car Standards for 5360 car-feet/hr for a total of 27,800 car-feet/hr.
The new service will have 30 E's and F's, 10 R's and 10 V's all with 600 foot trainsets for a total of 30,000. This is an increase of 7.9% increase in service from levels of 40 years ago.
What about manpower? They previously required 34 x 3 for the E's and F's and 10 x 2 for the Brighton Local for a total of 122 people. The new lineup will feature 50 trains with 2 people each for a total of 100. This represents a savings of 18%. Looks good so far.
Wait. The cost of the 63rd St Subway, plus the 63rd St tunnel, plus the new 63rd St connector comes to around $1.5 billion. The annularized cost for this capital is around $120 million (8%).
There are two strategies for adding additional Queens Blvd service. Run 11 car trains and eat the personnel costs or build the 63rd St line and run shorter trains with only 1 conductor. If each of those 22 redundant conductors has burdened annual wage rates in excess of $5.45 million, then the TA's strategy actually saves money.
I remember seeing 11-car markers on some IND stations when I was a kid, but I never saw an 11 car IND train. Some stations like 63 Drive is a tight fit for 10 cars.
Won't fit in 63rd Dr or 67th, but if one were to closely examine the southbound end of the platforms, one would see allowances were made for potential leghtening. I beleive the same is true of Elmhurst and the other one, Grand Ave. The local stops between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza would have to be looked at as well.
One must remember though, the E and F were Express through these stations. Where it counted, the platforms were 660ft.
avid
All you need to do is slap some tile on the wall, move the "do not enter or cross" sign and upgrade the lighting and you have 11 cars at the QB local stations. The clearance of the catwalk at the edges of the stations is better than PATH at the ends of Christopher and 23st.
Why have 11 car locals?
avid
What happens if an 11 car E/F has to be routed down the local tracks? If this happened during the time of the 11 car operation, not all cars would be able to open.
Uh, maybe they would only stop at express stations.
Beep the Horn,blow the whisthe, ring the bell, and pass the local stops until the next Express stop or local stop long enough to accomidate the consist is reached.
avid
What if, due to delays, the next local is in 20 minutes? Nowatimes they just pluck one express train, toss it onto the local and have it make the stops while the next G and R run express to Continental and then again express back to Queens Plaza.
Yes that is now. I guess it's a case of SOL.
avid
What happens if an 11 car E/F has to be routed down the local tracks? If this happened during the time of the 11 car operation, not all cars would be able to open.
Most of the QB local stations are 660 feet long. For the few that are not opening only 10 cars was not a problem. The conductor positions were between 1&2 and 10&11. The motorman would hit the 10 car marker. The 2nd conductor would not open the 11th car.
BTW, up through the 1940's IRT expresses would open 8, 9 or 10 cars, depending on the station.
And similar things happened on the IC Electric in the heavyweight era where overlength trains were 'platformed over hanging the stations(on the South Chicago Branch) but the doors were not opened off platform
there is a sign on the east side of the most north GCS shuttle that says don't stand here when there is no train or something like it.
I recall R/10s on the "A" during the late '50s and '60s having two conductors. One was between the first and second cars, and the other was back between the ninth and tenth cars.
avid
I think they also had extra conductors on the 8 car Standards in the 2nd and 7th car, and on the triplex when they ran 3 sections between the 1st and 2nd and 2nd and 3rd
Wasn't it 1958 or thereabouts that they did away with the second conductor on 10-car trains? By the time we moved to Jersey in 1967, there was a single conductor on every train regardless of length.
I remember when it cost only fifteen cents to ride.
I remember the conductors hanging outside between cars on #4.
I remember taking the #4 down to Cortlandt Street and walking up to Canal looking for surplus electronic parts.
Thankyou for reminders of good times. Peter
The 4 in those days was the Sea Beach
I remember when it cost only fifteen cents to ride.
15 cents was subway robbery. I remember my father handing me a nickel on my fifth birthday to deposit in the turnstile.
You must be another one of the old guys!
What s a old guy? If it were not for some of us 40+ old guys you would not know about the history or eauipment prior to the R30s
I wish that I could be 40 again! I'd even be happy if I could be 50 again!
AHH, it's the, 'it takes one to know one' syndrome ... AGAIN...8=)
Peace,
ANDEE
It will come quicker then you realize
I'm 42. I first rode the NYC subways in 1963, when my family lived there (Bronx) for a few months...I have very vague memories of waiting for a train, and Mom telling me that an incoming train was not ours.
I returned to NYC beginning in 1984, when I made frequent visits to see the "Rocky Horror" movie cast and to go railfanning. I may have ridden some of the last R-10s on the 8th Ave line.
What I'm saying is that I'm grateful to the "old guys" on this BBS for their perspective and insight.
HEY RANDY! What you should be grateful for is the posters who love to ride all the trains/all the lines/all the time. What we did as kids and adults was to ride the trains from our neighborhoods to get to school or work...we seldom traveled any other lines. I know zip about the lines...and learn everday from SubTalk and I am so truly grateful for everything I read. I'm an 'old guy'.....just starting out with the TA...at the age of 47...and share what I see and learn everyday on SubTalk. The first Sunday of Advent has its reasons and relates to my new work. My biggest Advent wish: to have a supervisor assign me to a test run. God Bless, CI Peter
5 cents until 1947 10 cents to 53 then 15cents tokens after 53. I still have a couple
5 cents until 1947 10 cents to 53 then 15cents tokens after 53. I still have a couple
What nickels? :-)
TOKENS 15 cent ones
If you have any of the little ones without the Y stamped out, they are supposed to be very collectible!
I have to go check them out. I also have a couple of the 75th Aniversary ones
I have one of the solid 15 centers but was long gone from the city by 1979. I often thought it would be nice to get a collection of all of them but I'm sure it would be expensive to try to do it now.
One just sold on eBay for $4.50, and another set went for $11.50.
Thanks for the info and the links!
It hadn't occurred to me to check eBay for tokens.
I'll start watching for them.
Ill keep mine for now, after 40 years along with my original LAMTA(the old one) and some others
>>> One just sold on eBay for $4.50, and another set went for $11.50. <<<
Well those prices certainly would not pay for the safety deposit box to store old tokens while they appreciate.
Tom
>>> 5 cents until 1947 10 cents to 53 <<<
You wasted a lot of money if you paid 10Ē before July 1, 1948. :-)
Tom
I was not sure if it was 47 or 48
>>> I was not sure if it was 47 or 48
Well they say memory is second thing to go. :-)
Tom
You should no, You are a FEW YEARS older then me. and yest the memory goes, cause I have a chronic C.R.S.
Here is one for you. From 1947 to 1949 if you went to the movies on Saturday afternoon it cost only 8 cents. If you had a quarter, you could get in, then buy popcorn for 5 cents, and ice cream bar for 7 cents, and a candy bar for 6 cents. All you needed was an extra penny and you had it made. I had a lot of fun doing that at the Beacon Theatre in Long Island City. I had a hell of a time with three or four of my buddies.
I remember the 15 cent fare---I also remember that it went up to 20 cents when I was living in Rockaway for the summer. Remember, the fare was double out there at that time. We were outraged!!
The "GOLD Star Mother", Knickibocker, Miss New York, Verrezzano and Mary Murray, I'm missing one.
Help.
avid
Miss Rheingold
One more ... and the most important of them *ALL* ...
MISS SUBWAYS!!! Got to vote every June ... tear one off from the roof signage and don't forget to vote. Kreigsmann advertising ... or SOMETHING with a K in the name - their logo was almost as large as that of the TA on the signs. Then in August, you were treated to the winner in the gratuitous turnstile shot of her dress' TRAIN caught in the mechanics somewhere.
One of those "Miss Subways" has her own 'eating place' (I refuse to call it a restaurant). Have you ever checked it out?
It's called "Ellens Stardust Diner" and is on the corner of 51st and B'way. Zagat says that it "invariably WOWS out of towners". That should tell you something.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ellens sucks...too many 'Broadway types' work there....and the jukebox I used to service makes about 25 bucks a week.
Wowsers ... will have to take it in. Some of those winners were gaw-jus, others ... well ... looked like TWU members. :o
Was it the "Cornelius G. Kolff"? I rode it back in the 1950's, when you had to pay to ride the ferry. At least some things are better now! BTW, anybody here remember riding the gate cars in revenue service on the Lex Ave el in Brooklyn. Unfortunately, I do!
I'm glad there is someone else around who rode the "Lex".
Yes, The Kolff. Which one bottomed in the slip?
avid
I think I rode it, I am not surer. I do rememberriding the Myrtle gate Cars, and the Fulton out to Lefferts from East NY, and of course the whole of the 3rd Ave from Gun Hill to Chatham Sq with my dad.
If you rode the gate cars pn the Lex, it would have had to have been before Oct 13th, 1950.
I knew I rode gate cars on the Myrtle, I am not sure about the Lex. How ab out Hi Volts with the Brke Wheel on the IRT(3300s_
I remember riding them on either the 7th Ave or Lexington Ave lines, but I was a dedicated BMT fan, and didn't pay much attention to the IRT or IND.
I used to ride them to my grandparents in Inwood, on the Bdwy-7th Ave, did not like them because no railfan window
The "GOLD Star Mother", Knickibocker, Miss New York, Verrezzano and Mary Murray, I'm missing one.
Well, the GOLD STAR MOTHER, MARRY MURRAY, and MISS NEW YORK were one class...built 1938 and removed from service in the '70s.
THE PVT. JOSEPH F. MERRILL, VERRAZZANO, and CORNELIUS G. KOLFF were the last steamboats built for the SI line - 1950-51 and removed from service 1981-83.
The KNICKERBOCKER, TOMPKINSVILLE, and AMERICAN LEGION (the first one) were built in the '20s and retired by the MERRILL, et al.
Since I was born in 1971, I recall the MERRILL class - even to the point of spending many a day on the class when stripping them for the Ferry Museum.
Alas, I do not recall the others!
The Dongan Hills was the boat built with the Knickerbocker and the Tompkinsville, in 1929, while the orignial American Legion was built five years earlier and looked the same, but had a different hull design that tended to splash water onto the front of the vehicular decks. Between 1953-65 the SI Ferry rotated their nine newest boats, with the Legion being used as the relief boat. I finally got to ride it in 1963, after the Verrazzano sank in dock at SI following a collision and had to be taken to drydock for repairs. When the Kennedy class arrived, the 1920s-era boats were removed from service.
The interiors of all four of the 1924-29 boats were about the same, and the ornate wood paneling in the upper (second) deck cabin put today's more utilitarian boat designs to shame (though admittedly, that started changing by the time the Miss New York class arrived and was gone completely when the three-deck Merrill class boats came in).
Which ones are now doing time on the "Rock" Rickers Island, as prison ships.
There's a boat, not an S.I. ferry, a Seattle Boat used in a T.V. show with Don Johnson and Cheech. They use it as a police headquarters or preceint. How old was it to be beached.
avid
The Merrill is the one that was converted for Riker's use. I'm not sure about the other boat for the Johnson-Marin show.
BTW -- Just as a side note with a subway-related connection, the Merrill got almost as hideous an interior paint job in the early 1970s as the R-7/R-33 fleet of N.Y.C. subway cars did, along with a pretty bad paint job on the outside and on the smokestack (with the cheesiest looking City of New York sticker put over the Department of Marine & Aviation emblem). Unlike the MTA though, the DM&A took one look at their handiwork on that boat, realized they had committed a crime against humanity and didn't bother to vandalize the C.G. Kolff, Verrazzano or any of the Kennedy class boats in the same way...
The one used in the Don Johnson show was a former SF-Oakland Ferry that was owned by the Southerb Pacific. They only used the exterior shots. I believe it is a museum up by Fisherman s Wharf
How about the 69th Street Electric Ferries, or the Railroad ferries from Manhatten to Jersey Central., Erie, Lackawanna, and West Shore, also the Yonkers Ferry
I guess that the V train is a boon for Queens Blvd Local riders?? I'm sure V headways will be much shorter than G headways during peak hrs. That combined with R local service will be a benefit for Western Queens Blvd local riders I'm sure. I recall back in the mid 80's, during AM peak, there was an N-train every 4 minutes, and a GG train every 8-10 approx making a combined 2-4 min wait (on a good day). I hope with the V train, this will be true again???? TOny
In 1974, Rhoda Morgenstern had to get on the IRT to go to her wedding in the Bronx (in her gown), because Phyllis forgot to pick her up and drive her there (Phyllis was frazzled trying to properly coordinate the accessories she bought at Bergdorfs!!). Valerie Harper literally went into the station at 72/Bway, but the interior station where she boarded a train was at 68-Lex where she got on a 6. When she exited in the Bronx, she was running up stairs on a hill, and in the background, you see IRT trains probably on the 2/5 line. THEN, she runs across the Grand Concourse to her wedding in Ida's house!!!!! I kept thinking, "why couldn't she just get the "D"??". It was hysterical seeing how dingy the IRT was in 1974, and ALL of the windows on the train were opened, so you know it was a hot summer, and the train was NOT air-conditioned. Remember those days???? BTW, this was one of the highest rated episodes of any sitcom at the time!!
Tony leong
That el you see Rhoda running from on her way to her parents house on the Concourse wasn't the '2' and '5'; it was the '4', which runs along Jerome Avenue three blocks parellel west of the Concourse. The scene in question is around 175th Street, which runs under the Concourse in a deep tunnel adjacent to the Cross Bronx.
The writers must've figured that if Rhoda riding the subway in a wedding gown is a funny sight gag, then Rhoda running up a long flight of stairs is downright hilarious. The Concourse runs along the top of a high ridge for much of its length, so there were many 'step streets' leading up to it.
Funny thing was, the Jewish middle class epitomized by the Morgensterns had pretty much abandoned the Concourse by the late sixties largely due to the opening of Co-op City. A long period of deterioration followed. Today, the soldily built Art Deco apartment buildings have been renovated and are being aggressively marketed to professionals due to its proximity to two subway lines.
The dilapidated state of the subway system in the seventies made it the butt of many jokes on sitcoms of the time. THE ODD COUPLE and ALL IN THE FAMILY also had episodes taking place on it- or at least a dummied-up Hollywood set of a typical car with lots of graffiti and at least one funny/crazy person. There would always be some kind of mishap: Felix and Oscar were caught in a lengthy breakdown, and Arch, Gloria and the Meathead got involved in a fight.
Not exactly the kind of thing that would encourage tourists to ride the subways.
Just a note on "The Oddd Couple" episode -- Tony Randall was head of a group of entertainers and others trying to promote New York when this episode was filmed, with a much more cynical ending on the subway planned. He had them re-do it to show the passengers helping out at the end for a more upbeat finish -- even if they did end up taking a trip on the train to the yard.
And now with "Nick At Night" amd "TV Land" broadcasting, the flawed perception of NYC is shown to a new generation.
Starts 12/10/01. From Many pay phones (I have a list but it is too long to post) you will be able to dial toll-free 3333 and get a recording with a menu of choices. This is per official stations bulletin. The bulletin did not explain what the menus will be.
What kind of choices? I've seen them also. I thought it was a way to call Transit Police without dialing 911.
Right now I have only seen the bulletin advising the service is available from the pay phones in some stations starting 12/10/01. The bulletin did not state what info would be available.
When you're at Lawrence St next week, ask the clerk there for the bulletin. I saw it on the clip board. It might be next to the cleaning report by the front window.
I have a copy. I got it at 370 Jay.
The correct number is #3333. I've already tried it out. Check out message number 281374.
A long CSX train passed by a little while ago heading towards Brooklyn on the Bay Ridge Line. It hasn't come back towards Fresh Pond Yard yet which leads me to believe they they're using the yard in Bay Ridge now. Does anyone know if they really are or since when? I think I might have missed the boat somewhere.
Shawn
There are Fly-overs and fly-unders and combinations of the two.
Which of the many on the system do you like best and least. Which are the best and worst engineered? Which a the most fun and Railfan friendly? Have you ever waved to someone in an adjacent train as they or you decend into the darkness of a different route?
I never wave to a local train while on an Express. It's a fear of cursing the express and coming to a time consumming Halt. Likewise I never wave at an express from a local. The wrong person may see the wave, and be waiting for me at the next express stop.
I like the underused fly O/U south of West St. where the 6th and 8th avenue IND lines can mix it up. The East NY/Eastern Parkway looks like it might have been a fun junction. Last , but by no means least, the almost GRAND UNION north of 47-50 Rockefeller Center is a real beauty.
avid
The early morning ride on the "A", before it goes express was always a nice ride as it approached West 4th on it's northbound run.
With luck, an "F" train would meet the "A" and both would navagate the switches, an then the "F" would decend and the "A" would ascend to their respective platforms. If your stars were aligned just right you may have had a dash out of Jay St a few minutes earlier with the same "F". These runs were frequent, but I would set my watch by them.
avid
Actually, brings to mind a question I've always meant to ask ... when the "F" comes into 47-50/Rock Ctr westbound from the 53rd Street tunnel, it comes in on the inner southbound track. By the time it gets to 42nd Street, it's back on the outer track. Is this a flyover/flyunder on the soundbound Sixth Ave IND?
Yes, the flyover/under is in between 47/50 and 42.
Peace,
ANDEE
East and west of Jamaica Station on the L.I.R.R. are to fine examples of FLY Over/Unders. Any photos of these?
avid
Try this. It takes a tremendous amout of will power. Not for the weak willed.
Enter any station, go to the platform, ONLY look in the direction the train you need WILL exit. Do not look down the tracks in the direction your train will come from. This is not a Valid test of strength on a SHUTTLE line for the Obvious Reasons!
The Taboo is looking for the approaching train!
avid
Reminds me, I like to get on a crowded elevator and face the crowd, away from the door. Makes people feel very uncomfortable.
Or stand within the ten ft. bubble near the only other person or nearest person on mostly empty platform.
avid
Free Transfer Here
It's hard to imagine that the PATH station suffered only "modest damage" as the Port Authority says. Enough of the station's ceiling collapsed to crush three cars of the train left in the station. That sure doesn't seem like "modest damage" to me.
Collapsed ceiling and three crushed cars is definately modest compared to what went on upstairs.
Shawn
Did anyone notice that the promo for "Friends" is shot at the BMT Court Street station and not the IND Court Street Station?
Has anyone eaten in the R1/9 car in Golden's Deli in Staten Island?
The subway car may be authentic, but to couple an "AA" route designator with a "Broadway-Lafayette" destination is like, well, ordering mayo with pastrami!
...and it would be nice in IND olive green instead of the white and blue stripe treatment. (which is probably they way they received it)
I went to a "Jewish Style" in Tennesse during the 1982 worlds fair and they had pastrami and cheese!
Its not a full car, about 3/4 of it is there. Last time it was painted yellow.. go figure.
You don't have to go to Tennesse for that. You can now get that at Katz's on Houston.
I only have been there once, in like 1992 or something. It was before I moved to Staten island which is in 1993.
Do they still have the vintage 1977 ad with Reggie Jackson on the right side of the car (facing the front of the building)?
What happened to the number plate on this car? Can't tell if it's a Pressed Steel or an ACF car.
I was there once a long time ago. I remember seeing an "FF" designation which seemed strange to me.
- Lyle Goldman
I'm working on an article about Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn (the end near Fort Greene/Clinton Hill). I wanted to know how the neighborhood was affected by the demolition of the M elevated line?
Some residents I spoke with said it was a good thing, the subway was dark and noisy. Others said it hurt the neighborhood and economy.
Any comments?
Well for one thing, it wasn't the M line it was the MJ line.
the subway was dark and noisy
It wasn't a subway, it was an Elevated line
Others said it hurt the neighborhood and economy.
A rapid transit line bringing trainloads of customers into the neighborhood hurting the economy?
I think he meant to say that others believed the removal of the El hurt the economy.
There's truth in both statements. The removal of the el allowed the sunshine to hit the street, which soon became lined with businesses which went belly-up.
It was the MJ line, and the neighborhood proceeded to go down hill, when the EL was razed. The B54 bus running down Myrtle Ave was slow at best. The 70`s was also the time of a big recession, which also hit my old neighborhood very hard. Note the vicinity of The housing Projects to Myrtle Ave ( I`m from Lafayette Gardens ), Coupled with declining property values, Unemployment, Recession and poor access to transportion and you can draw your own conclusions.
I will be in NY City this Sat and need directions on which subway train to take to get from Broadway and 42 St to ground zero the WTC and back. I have not been able to obtain this information and I am running out of time. Please help
If you take the N or the R train to Rector Street, that will put you right near ground zero.
just walk back a couple of blocks toward the smoke
Please note you won't be able to go west of Broadway in that area due to it, unless that viewing platform is installed already.
From 42 St/7 Ave:
Walk over to 8 Ave, take the A or C train to Chambers St. If the train doesn't stop there take it instead to Broadway/Nassau.
Take the 1 or 2 train to Chambers St.
Take the N or R train to Rector St.
From wherever you get off the train you'll have to then walk over. But be warned! You will NOT be able to get past a certain distance from the site. A viewing platform is supposed to be built. But I don't think it has been built.
If you actually want to see anything, walk west to Battery Park City.
Thwe AWOL charge for bweing stranded due to the WTC disaster was dismissed.
DAVE: Forgive this intrusion into off-topic. The only reason for the post is I did post the news I was being charged.
The AWOL charge for being stranded due to the WTC disaster was dismissed.
I'm glad to hear that. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that it was utterly absurd for the charge to have been brought in the first place. This is not a Kafka novel.
But it is the TA. They tend to do stupid things like that. They go by the "rules". They never seem to waiver on it until someone makes a fuss (especially to the media).
You would think they would use common sense but seeing as we are dealing with Management we all know they had a Common Sense removal operation.
It is the same for my city agency, we were all charged time for the 11th (even though dismissed at 11am) 12th and 13th until November 9th when they implemented the "emergency time and leave regulations concerning absence and lateness which recoginize the impact of a tragedy".
Timekeeping has been busy charging people and then refunding the time. Even a bigger headache if you did not have Vacation time and your check was docked, you still haven't got the money back yet.
Thank God for unions!
Glad to hear some sanity snuck past the guards in the lobby. :)
I've been in so many places like that...
"Common sense gets checked at the door. If they find you're carrying any..."
-Robert King
Unlawful possession of a clue is a felony in many states. :)
>>Glad to hear some sanity snuck past the guards in the lobby. :) <<
Must have been while their backs were turned.
Or while they were hunting through the box for the jelly filled donuts.
-Robert King
Would you believe that there are people DUMB enough to stick up a Dunkin' Donuts? Heh.
I believe it. I heard something about how a Tim Horton's in cottage country got held up a few years ago by some drunk punks on a long weekend but I can't remember the details.
-Robert King
There never seems to be a shortage of people whizzing in the gene pool. :)
Would you believe that there are people DUMB enough to stick up a Dunkin' Donuts? Heh.
I sure hope not:
Donuts
Yep ... that pretty much sums up the point ... and YES, there ARE people dumb enough to do it even when the parking lot's full and so are all the seats aat the counter. I've seen it myself. And they wonder why the Darwin Awards never runs out of contestants.
>>Glad to hear some sanity snuck past the guards in the lobby. :) <<
Well, we had better federalize them double-quick!
If we allow sanity to creep into our bureaucracies, then the terrorists have won :-)
Not to worry, none was budgetted this fiscal year. Prospects dim. :)
I saw this train heading South at Canal on the local track. cars 3001 to 3006. The train had luminator type side signs (showing A with no destination.) The end sign was Not in service with a small luminator sign udnerneath. Perhaps they intend to use these cars after all?
I did not see the interior. I was on the uptown C on the express track due to an E train going BIE halfway north out of Canal.
That would be the R110B. R110A cars are for the IRT and are numbered 8001-8010.
Cars 3007 through 3009 are in 207th Street Yard and have not been scrapped or cannibalized as has been suggested in this forum. Within a while, nine car R110B's may return.
A spontainous thought burst like a bubble in what is left of my mind.
If and when the R/143 begin "testing", how about the R110/b or is it R/134 start "testing" as well. A challange of sorts. The loser buys at "KATS Deli".
Who's in?
avid
There has been a lot of discussion here on SubTalk about the pros and cons of the upcoming V train addition and related changes, especially the congestion that will occur on Queens Blvd.
But the other side of the coin is the fact that on weekends, there will only be one service serving 23/Ely, Lex/53, and 5/53, the E. As one who has used the 5/53 station to/from Roosevelt Ave. quite frequently in the past, I think this will be another problem areas for the new service configuration. I'd be curious to hear others' opinions, especially our T/O and C/R friends who work this area.
If this proves to be a problem, the obvious solution would be to run the V on weekends.
I don't think it will be a big deal. Remember that 53rd and 5th is one block east and three blocks north of an F station, seven blocks south of an R station, and eleven blocks north of a 7 station. The area as a whole is well-served by Queens lines.
I don't think it will be a big deal. Remember that 53rd and 5th is one block east and three blocks north of an F station, seven blocks south of an R station, and eleven blocks north of a 7 station. The area as a whole is well-served by Queens lines.
But it's more a question of frequency. I could go to 53/Lex and take EITHER an E or F to Queens. Now I gotta wait on E headways which are, what, 12 minutes on weekends? Looooooooooong time ....
Typical B Division off-peak headways are 10 minutes. I don't think the E runs less frequently than that on weekends.
I think it's better to have some service on 53rd Street and some service on 63rd Street than to have double service on 53rd and no service on 63rd.
There's nothing holy about 53rd Street.
I think it's better to have some service on 53rd Street and some service on 63rd Street than to have double service on 53rd and no service on 63rd.
Ummmmm, I dunno. Remember that 63rd Street is largely a residential nabe as opposed to 53rd which is solidly in the midtown business district. Different riderships altogether.
And, one of the nice things about the otherwise dreadful 53/Lex station is that the trains were relatively frequent. I think Todd's original posting is on the money -- less frequent service at 53rd Street may prove a problem.
I said when the plan was first announced that within two years the F would be back on 53rd St. and the V will be on 63rd, if for no other reason than the delays that are sure to happen west of Queens Plaza.
We'll see what happens come December 2003.
You just contradicted yourself, probably without realizing it. For the reason that the 53rd area IS a professional business district, means that the ridership at 53rd will undoubtedly be less on weekends, especially since most of the businesses in the are closed altogether on weekends.
On the other hand, ridership at 63rd might be slightly higher, for people taking the subway out to Queens for one reason or another (to get to the airports, to relatives further out on the island, etc).
. For the reason that the 53rd area IS a professional business district, means that the ridership at 53rd will undoubtedly be less on weekends, especially since most of the businesses in the are closed altogether on weekends.
On the other hand, ridership at 63rd might be slightly higher ...
Yeah, but for the entire UES (the residential nabe containing 63rd Street) uses the IRT to travel downtown. The IRT interchanges at 51st Street (not particularly pleasantly, but it does interchange) with the IND at Lex/53rd. Nothing connects with the 63rd Street station at all. So you either gotta walk to it or take a cab. Hence, much lower traffic than at Lex/53.
Bet you the number of people who get on at 63rd is ALWAYS lower, at any time of day or night, than the number of people who get on at Lex/53rd.
There's a Metrocard transfer at 63rd to the 59 St station, so it's not entirely without connection.
The area used to be a destination too with bars, Bloomies, the dead Alexanders. Now you can catch a late flick on 60th and a pint and still get home a bit easier
I worked weekends for many years at 51 W. 52 Street, before WCBS moved to W. 57th. I've used the 5/53 station at all hours of the day and night, especially on weekends... and it can be very busy. Remember, this is in the heart of the 5th Avenue shopping district, and the nearest station to the Museum of Modern Art.
MOMA is doing some renovation work and running shuttle buses from their site in Manhattan to a new display space in, you guessed it, Queens.
I'm afraid I have difficulty believing that nobody who uses 53rd today wouldn't be happy to switch to 63rd in two weeks.
Why, especially on weekends, do you assume that a crowded residential neighborhood like the Upper East Side doesn't generate considerable traffic?
As I said before, if the E proves insufficient on 53rd, the V can always start running weekends.
Why, especially on weekends, do you assume that a crowded residential neighborhood like the Upper East Side doesn't generate considerable traffic?
That's not what I'm saying. Clearly the neighborhood does generate traffic. I'm saying that 63rd is isolated and doesn't connect to the IRT which is what the UES uses to travel by subway from their nabe to wherever they're going.
Aside from the people within 10 blocks of 63rd, everyone else would have to take a cab to get to 63rd to get to Queens. They won't do that. Instead they'll take the IRT to 53rd ... where they'll wait longer since there will only be half as many trains.
See previous post in different part of thread: "the entire UES (the residential nabe containing 63rd Street) uses the IRT to travel downtown. The IRT interchanges at 51st Street (not particularly pleasantly, but it does interchange) with the IND at Lex/53rd. Nothing connects with the 63rd Street station at all. So you either gotta walk to it or take a cab. Hence, [I believe that we will always see] much lower traffic [at 63rd] than at Lex/53."
There will be a MetroCard walking transfer between the F and the 4/5/6/N/R/W. It's inconvenient but it's something.
I thought the concern raised in this thread was with those originating at 53rd Street. Similarly, there are those originating at 63rd Street. Transfers are irrelevant.
In case you were unaware, transfers to the R are available one stop north of the transfer to the E that you mention. It's a much better transfer point, in fact. Now, I realize that many Queens residents would prefer anything over riding the local, but the fact remains that the R does exist and only takes a few minutes more than the E to reach Roosevelt Avenue, where transfers are available to the F as well as the E.
As things are now, I'm located about equal distant from 47-50th and 53rd Sts. I generally hop a bus on Madison Ave(MC-30-DAY) and catch either the "E" or "F" for a run to VAN WYCK. If I get the "E" , I'll go as far as Kew Gardens and change for the "F" to get to Van Wyck.
I like the express. Its about a 25-ish minute run.
I think that after the change, I'll be hooving it to 47-50 for the "F" / "V" option. Seat or stand, I still have to get to Van Wyck and as with most riders, I prefer a one seat ride. One train ride, the seat is a chancey item on the F but I suspect it is going to be crowed. The "V", with its stops, may be not as crowed, but I'll have to change at Forest Hills.
With luck , an "F" will come first, giving me the option of first refusal if there are no vacant seats. The next train better be an "F" or "V" with seats.
avid
The problem with your plan is that the V will only go as far as 71st/Continental. You'd have to wait there for the F, but at least by then there should be plenty of free seats.
I disagree. 53rd/Lexington is a much heavier used location that Lex/63rd. The difference in the immediate neighborhood is dramatic. 63rd. St. is a glorified residential street.
It is 10 minutes. I know - on Saturday, October 27th, I stood around Continental for a half-hour waiting for a Q with R32's.
They should definitely time the trains so that an F is at Jackson Hts to dove tail with an R, so that the Lex can be accessed without waiting for an E.
The main thing I see negative about 63rd Street is that it takes a very long time to get to either platform. The station is extremely deep, and I don't know about recently, but a few years back at least 1 or 2 escalators were broken at once, including at least 1 UP escalator! Even though 53rd-Lex is deep also, it doesn't compare to 63rd-Lex. Plus, I don't recall the escalators at 53rd-Lex breaking down anywhere as often as 63rd-Lex.
In addition, there used to be SEPARATE turnstiles for the elevator(at 63rd), which was frequently broken as well! The whole facility was very NON USER FRIENDLY, unless it has changed in recent times. Please let me know if I'm wrong! Thanks!
Yes, you're absolutely right.
In addition, 53/5 simply isn't a very heavily travelled weekend stop (except for the December holiday period). The Madison Avenue entrance is closed all day on Sunday, leaving only the one entrance at 5th -- which is never crowded.
Maybe more of an issue for 53/Lex, but still with E trains every 10 minutes or less I doubt it.
CG
As one who works at Queens Plaza at all hours and all times the lack of access to 6th/8th aves will hurt me. Yes I can get off at Queensbridge but that is an UPHILL walk to where I work on the Plaza.
Before the bridge flip flop, I travled 6th Ave to the Plaza, now Broadway and take the first N/R or W (going home it depends on if I want to walk up the stairs and wait outside or not >G<). Now with Brighton on Broadway I don't think it will effect me as much, just cuts down my options.
You've lost one night/weekend option (unless you're willing to walk from 21st). You still have the N, the R, the E, and the 7.
Another option returning from Queens Plaza is to take the E to 7th Ave and change there for a downtown D (across the platform), but it means taking an extra train. You can do the same thing heading towards Queens Plaza: D to 7th Ave, E to QP.
It causes problems if you take the Q & have to get to 53rd-Lex; there is no longer a convenient transfer at 34th on weekends to get there. I know that you can still change at 14th for the 6, but I have generally found the F to be more convenient for some reason.
subfan
Con's
-Confusion for F riders
-The G will be less usefull
-There will actually be less change in Queens Blvd Service(Trust me)
-The 63 Street connection sole purpose was to be the connection point for the Second Avenue line.It's only used today for Roosevelt Island Service(If you take the S from 21 Street the train will be virtually empty until the next stop Downtown.The only reason it pulls in good money is because it's a terminal).
-The V will only run just about the same time span as the (if it doesn't go in then I mean the Diamond Q)and the Z.
Pro's
-The 63 Street connection will finally be complete
-This will "pour in the foundation" for the Second Avenue line
-2 tracks will be taken of the abandoned list
-This MIGHT ease congestion on the 4,5 and 6
-We MIGHT see Culver express service again.
If this doesn't make sence to you
then I'm sorry.
How will it ease congestion on the 4, 5, and 6? It will make that station less crowded, I hope. That station at rush hour is a disaster, especially if you are using it to transfer from an E from Penn Station and you have a suitcase.
Cons are the biggest thing I, as an operating employee at the TA, see with the start of the V train. Only thing I see with the V line is INCREASED ( I mean big time on top of the already delay plagued Queens division) delays! Let's say this, though on the day the V was tested that Saturday a few months ago I was on the F, the V test was a disaster. I mean there was so much confusion by crews and supervision as to who is gonna relay, who will cross over to the other side to make their train, crews and intervals were WAY out of place, at times so bad were the delays that day several V trains ended up going express to Roosevelt Avenue. Customers were so confused because on top of the already G.O. and reroute plagued weekends there had been, the one day run of this, to them, unknown and unheard of train more confusion than ever before. Off duty that day I answered like zillions of questions about what is the V, where does it go, why they are doing this on this weekend, everything. Now all this unfolded on a single Saturday....just imagine this happening all on a typical AM rush in the Queens Division, where delays are a plenty! One word to describe it....CHAOS! I have a lot of trouble seeing the Pros of the V line!!
Here are the pros I thought of:
E and F less crowded. Why? Pax at local stops have less reason to transfer. No matter what train they get, it's going to Manhattan. As it stands now 75% of the people on the G get off cram themselves on the E and F at Roosevelt and QP.
Fs will be less crowded. Lex ave riders have no reason to xfr to it at 63rd/Lex. And eventually Lex riders will stop bothering to xfr from it.
One of the biggest problems with this new route, is that Roosevelt now becomes a "point of no return" for some. So if you're on an F train coming from 179 or or Continental, you HAVE to get off by Roosevelt if your plan is to use 53/Lex. As it is Roosevelt, is an overcrowded station.
The whole thing seems like a disaster waiting to happen. The Queens Corridor used to infuriate me. Now it amuses me. I just shake my head and laugh it off.
Gee, was there this much controversy in 1967 with the introduction of the "EE" train on Queens Blvd?????
No, because the EE was just a new name for the Broadway local, and the only real differnce was you couldn't ride it all the way to Brooklyn anymore (not that anyone ever did that much anyway outside of the T/O and C/R). Also, when that change was made, there were far greater changes involving the BMT Southern Division and the IND's other Sixth Ave. trains besides the F for people to get confused about.
Gee, was there this much controversy in 1967 with the introduction of the "EE" train on Queens Blvd?????
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I don't know, I wasn't born yet.
Wrong.The 63rd street line was a new route to Jamaica via the LIRR Main Line.It was an alternate for Queens east west[or vise verse]service,and would have helped eliminate some of the over croweding,and also added some much needed subway trackage to areas that lack service today[south Jamaica].The Second ave line was conceived as an north south with transfers to the Queens/Bklyn lines,and direct connections to the Bronx. The 1968 MTA PROGRAM FOR ACTION PLAN[RAPID TRASNSIT EXPANDTION]had the two lines interact with flying junctions for interchangablity between the two.
"The 63 Street connection sole purpose was to be the connection point for the Second Avenue line.It's only used today for
Roosevelt Island Service(If you take the S from 21 Street the train will be virtually empty until the next stop Downtown.The
only reason it pulls in good money is because it's a terminal)."
Absolutely false. The original 63rd St line's purpose was, and the purpose of the present Connector, when implemented with a new service plan, is to increase subway capacity across the East River into Queens. It was not solely to provide a connection to a Second Avenue line, though such a connection is provided for, and will ultimately be used.
Todd, I agree. I wish this whole 63 St thing would just go away.
For most Queens Blvd riders, it will actually mean less options,
especially off-peak. The entire service plan is based around the
need to cost-justify the connector project. At the very least, this
service plan should have been delayed until after the MB work is
complete. It is going to suck with a capital K trying to deal with
F & V services competing for track space on 6 Ave with B & D trains
trying to turn in the middle at 34. All it takes is one door
problem, sick passenger or police action and the whole rush hour
is screwed.
It is going to suck with a capital K trying to deal with F & V services competing for track space on 6 Ave ...All it takes is one door problem, sick passenger or police action and the whole rush hour is screwed.
Actually, none of these is a necessary condition to screw up the entire rush hour. The imbalance between F & V and E & V services combined with the variablility between T/O's is sufficient.
Why don't all the Cassandra's lay off and see how it pans out. If it doesn't work, there will be time enough for whining then. And who knows, it may just work.
Why don't all the Cassandra's lay off and see how it pans out. If it doesn't work, there will be time enough for whining then. And who knows, it may just work.
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I apologize for those who dare to share their thoughts on how this whole Queens Blvd. thing will work out.
What really frustrates me is the way in which the TA went about studying the Queens Corridor in preparation for the V line. Here are some examples:
1. The TA sent field reps out one Saturday to study conditions
on the Queens Corridor. Saturday? The main problems facing
this area occur during the weekday rush, which is when the
the observations should've taken place. Leave it to the TA.
2. At Roosevelt, I asked a field rep what he was observing, and
he responded, "how many trains pass this station". That's it.
He wasn't observing how crowded the trains were. He wasn't
observing whether or not they were on time or not. What was
the TA trying to accomplish by observing how many trains
pass Roosevelt train station?
1.
1. The test was done under rush hour service levels, though, obviously, not under rush hour loading conditions. The service plan had already been designed and was being checked for "kinks" before actually being implemented.
2. Perhaps the "field observer" either did not have time to give a more detailed answer, or, not realizing that he or she was dealing with a railfan/"expert", oversimplified the answer. The observers were entering the route, the lead car number, and dwell time information (time train arrives, time doors open, time initial attempt is made to close doors, time doors actually close, time train starts to move...) into pocket computers for later analysis by NYCT Operations Planning staff.
David
That makes sense. Test the effects of running 4 trains, using weekday headways, with weekend ridership levels.
The field observer had all the time in the world and explained to me what was being done. Both of us could not figure out how it would help plan for the new V line.
Perhaps you can. Enrich this "expert" with your knowledge.
Obviously, NYCT could not force an AM rush hour's worth of riders to ride on a Saturday on Queens Boulevard. Therefore, that part of the test immediately was invalid, and NYCT knew it but nothing could be done to change that fact. The reason it was done on a Saturday and not on a weekday was that enough cars and crews were not available to do it on a weekday -- cars and crews were borrowed from other lines.
The idea was to test the new signal system in the area of Queens Plaza (including the new, computerized Queensboro Plaza Tower we've been talking about on this board for a while), the merging and diverging of the various Queens Boulevard services, and the terminal operation at Continental Avenue. The Queens Boulevard test was the first time such a test had been attempted in the New York City subway system.
As to the field observers, they were (paid) volunteers from different departments and divisions within NYC Transit. Most had not been involved in the planning or scheduling efforts and did not have (or need to have) the full story as to what was happening. They were there to mark down what they saw (and were told what to mark down); analysis and interpretation of the data was reserved for those who needed to do the analysis and interpretation.
David
Personally, methinks you whine much ado about nothing. But you do so in the finest of NY's tradition.
The current service plan may work out fine, or it may need some tweaking. We'll see what happens.
Please note that, when the E operates alone through the the 53 St line, it will be operating on off-peak hours, and as a local service, and the G will be available for transferring, at full length.
No, the E will run express on weekends. Only at night will it run local in Queens.
Thanks for the clarification.
"........and the G will be availiable for transfering, at full length." I am under the impression that the G will be 4 cars 24/7. In addition it will be OPTO on the weekends (yes, first time for OPTO on the Queens Blvd. corridor).
OPTO on Queens Blvd on a weekend afternoon is asking for trouble. When the train pulls into Woodhaven Blvd and gets all the mall traffic, it will be a nightmare getting out of that station. Not to mention the fact that Woodhaven is a curved station and visibility will be hampered. This is a dragging waiting to happen.
Woodhaven is not that bad as far as the curve goes. CCTV is the answer to the obstructed view. Besides, the T/O will still be able to see most passengers entraining at Woodhaven. Why? On a four car train, the T/O should be able to see the full length of the train. In fact, I believe that the s/b OPTO stop sign at that station is positioned so that the curve does not obstruct the rear of the train.
Speaking of OPTO trains, since they'll consist of only 4 cars, I wonder if the TA will do anything to educate passengers to this.
For example, will the TA define station bounds of 4 car G trains, so that waiting passengers don't stand in an area where the train will not stop? In LA, they run fewer cars on weekends, so they actually have signs on the walls and platforms saying, "trains stop between these arrows on weekends". I don't expect NY to be as advanced. Knowing our subway system, it'll be trial-and-error. Eventually, people will just have to learn the bounds of the 4 car G train on their own.
I love NY!
Many NY stations have areas signed as Off-Hours Waiting Areas (used for shorter night trains). It would be easy to put up signs saying weekend G trains stop at the Off-Hours Waiting Areas.
Off-hour waiting areas tell passengers where they can and still be seen by the token booth clerk. They don't tell passengers if they are standing in an area of platform where a train will not stop.
What I'm suggesting is such a simple procedure. Other cities understand it. The LIRR even uses it at the Freeport station, and probably other stations. Why can't the NYCTA?
In theory, I believe the off-hour waiting areas are supposed to indicate where short trains stop. I don't know if they actually do in practice; the lines I ride most often run full-length trains at all times.
What about the "Board shuttle trains here" at Forgotten NY? (No, not that shuttle!)
>>Off-hour waiting areas tell passengers where they can and still be seen by the token booth clerk. They don't tell passengers if they are standing in an area of platform where a train will not stop. <<
Not true. Many of them are on platforms where the token booth is on a mezzanine (like E-F Lex. Ave stop) and can not see the platform at all.
Is anyone else having a problem with the message index? I keep setting it to "threads" and it keeps switching back to "chronological". Any idea how to fix it?
do your cookies work?
Yes they do
That sounds like a very personal question.
It seems that once I posted something and my Handle was active again, the setting kept.
Oh well, probably a quirk with my computer.
Thanks all for the advice.
Perhaps the problem is this... the threading only looks "right" if the first message in the thread is within the timeframe you choose to view. Otherwise there may be multiple "parent" messages that appear to be from the same thread and therefore it might look like those are in chronological order. But if you're not seeing ANY threading at all then I think your cookie settings are suspect. Threading's working just fine for me (with the above caveat) from my work PC.
I have wierd problems too: sometimes i connect with SubTalk and no interaction takes place. If i continue to try without refreshing or checking 'home,' Juno may disconnect me (I pay for service.) After losing seventy pounds of weight I can honestly look down and say 'my cookies are working.' Much less to be said for R142 technology. Peter
They are running a shuttle between Chambers and Canal on the J. Is that because they've begun the reconfiguration of Canal? As I understand it, the "horseshoe" at that station will be history, and the North side of the line will be closed. The line is going to go to two tracks according to Peter Dougherty. Also, you can see that at Canal the South side of the station has basically been left to rot while the North side has new tiles and everything. Also, I suspect any air vents on the South side have been closed, as it's warmer there.
Yes, the line will be 2 tracks/1 platform going through Bowery & Canal. I'm not sure the work has begun yet. The trackway designated to be the new northbound track (the current southbound express "spur") has been ripped up but not replaced as of yet.
Isn't the proposed 2nd Ave subway supposed to reach lower Manhattan by use of the Centre Street line ?
That's one scenario being examined. The other is a Water Street alignment.
David
One building along there (2 blocks north of wall, used to house Frank B Hall), as escalators leading down to the proposed subway.
If it goes down Centre Street, why are they so anxious to 2-track that subway ?
"If it goes down Centre Street, why are they so anxious to 2-track that subway ?"
Good question, and one I keep asking...
David
Any use of the Center Street tracks would require major changes to the line anyway, and since they're not filling in the Willie B-bound side, just taking it out of revenue service, it wouldn't be hard to reactivate the tracks again if and when a Second Ave. subway is built.
As for it cutting the capacity of the Willie B service, I don't see why that would necessarily be so. Either the J/M/Z or the Second Ave. trains could use the center tracks on Centre Street and terminate at Chambers, while the other service could use the outer tracks and continue on to Fulton and Broad. Or one service could use the rehabbed side of the Center street line and continue to Broad or to Brooklyn, while the other would go into the soon-to-be-abandoned side, and would terminate at Chambers. That would finally make full use of the Chambers Street complex for the first time in about 80 years, since they stopped LIRR service (In fact, some people who work downtown in Manhattan and live on the East side would probably be shocked to discover there actually is as vast a station as Chambers Street down there, if it became part of the Second Avenue subway).
If I had my way, they would use the original Chatham Square-Water Street route, because that would offer service to several areas not near any subway stations right now. But since the Center St.-Nassau Loop option would knock about 1 1/4 miles worth of new construction off the project, I won't go ballistic if that's the plan the MTA finally comes up with.
I see no logical reason to use the Centre St. option. This would require J/M/Z trains to terminate @ Chambers St, requiring transfers to get to Fulton & Broad Sts. This would be acceptable if the Centre St/2nd Ave. connection was gonna be of use to a significant number of people. Who is gonna use this connection to access the 2nd Ave line to get to midtown (say, 34 St/2nd Ave.)? The plan under discussion has a transfer to the 2nd Ave line from Sixth Ave. bridge trains @ Grand St. Most people will simply take the quicker route over the bridge and transfer at Grand St. to get 2nd Ave. trains. The Water St. option is better, as it provides subway service to the extreme western part of the Lower Manhattan financial district.
I agree the Water Street option is better (provided there's a direct transfer stop from the IND's West Side/Brooklyn lines either at Houston and/or Grand Streets). My point was if the MTA finds it can actually get the line built for $1-2 billion or so less by going via Center Street, and if cutting that amount from the budget resulted in approval of state or federal funds, I would be for it.
Anyway, there's no reason why the Second Ave. line couldn't terminate at Chambers and the J/M/Z go on to Broad or Brooklyn. Given that the Second Ave. line is going to be more of a local than an express, the terminal and route would paralell the IRT No. 6 train in Manhattan, and relieving pressure on it is the main goal behind the Second Ave. subway. Second Ave. riders could then transfer at Chambers to the J/M/Z or the 4/5 to go further downtown, and since Chambers would be the original terminal for the line, the complaints would likely be less than if Willie B service is cut back (even though usage at Fulton and Broad might rise if it was served by Second Ave. trains).
Grand St has trackways behind the walls, right?
Supposedly, though the stairway position so far away from the platform's edge compaired to most island platform express stations makes me wonder (if true, it's going to be a really wide platform if they finally do put a cross-platform transfer to the Second Ave. line there).
Nope. I checked with someone who ought to know, since he's working on the Second Avenue Subway study, and he told me that, contrary to popular belief, there's nothing behind the walls at Grand Street.
David
From the 1974 study,there was talk of ''building''the Second ave line's platforms at Grand st..... so I assume there isn't any tunnels or anything behind those wall........
The Water St. option is better, as it provides subway service to the extreme western part of the Lower Manhattan financial district
Ummmm, you mean EASTERN part?
Offset against that is the fact that there aren't likely to be new tunnels between Manhattan and Brooklyn in our lifetimes. So using the Centre Street alignment gives the Second Avenue line a chance at connecting to Brooklyn and becoming more than just a looooong shuttle up and down Manhattan.
Seems more likely that a tunnel to the Bronx will let Second Avenue ultimately connect to whichever Bronx IRT line they wanna convert to B Division service (Dyre Avenue, is it?). Then you've got a Bronx-Manhattan-Brooklyn line that not only serves the east side of Manhattan but a whole bunch of other journeys as well.
Also the Nassau St. option would make it more likely the MTA could associate a Second Ave. line with a plan for improving security in the WTC area by increasing mass transit options and lowering the number of vehicles in the downtown area, since Fulton-Nassau is only two blocks from the WTC site.
A Water Street line with a Fulton stop would serve the east side office buildings and the South Street Seaport, neither of which has nearby stations right now, but when the city and MTA go to Albany and Washington for funding, option A would be more likely to get support from reps outside the area than option B would, even though the difference in distance is only 4 1/2 blocks.
when the city and MTA go to Albany and Washington for funding, [Nassau option] would be more likely to get support from reps outside the area ... the MTA could associate a Second Ave. line with a plan for improving security in the WTC area by increasing mass transit options and lowering the number of vehicles in the downtown area
What's the funding window, or when are such arguments being made? I tend to believe that Congress has very short memories.
I'll be very curious to see how long the WTC attacks resonate to NYC's benefit. Our president in his wisdom already seems to be stiffing NYC. I wish I believed that the rest of the pledged $20 million actually *will* arrive "when it's needed". It ain't there til the money's in the bank and the check has cleared. [sigh]
If the M train were merged with the C train, there will be plenty of room for 2nd Avenue (P ?) trains to Broad Street. Send it or the J to the West End line; I don't care which.
If the M train were merged with the C train, there will be plenty of room for 2nd Avenue
How would the M be merged with the C?
He probably means running through service from 168 St on the C to Bay Parkway on the M via a future 2nd Av line, using the 63 St Connector.
not at all... he probably means running M's over the willy B through the existing access to the 6th local and then to the 8th local at w 4 st. i dont know how that would merge the c and m though, sounds more liek adding an additional service to 8th local... unless he meant merge the M and "V" which would be a great idea
We've been through this before.
The V can't be merged with the M because that would limit the V to short (480-foot) trains.
The C already runs short trains.
Brooklyn local service could be maintained by extending the E or V (or by rearranging Brooklyn IND service in some other fashion).
so? why cant the V be 480 foot?
just because it could be longer doesnt mean it has to be. the V's only suppossed to run 10 times an hour weeday peak. thats 6000 feet of train/hour. if you ran 12.5 480 ft V's an hour instead capacity woudl be the same avergae travel times would be slightly diminshed because of a slightly smaller average wait. the only drawback would be the extra conductors and motormen.
Would 12.5tph be too tight combined with R service ?
were talking about sharing a line between a 12.5tph V and a R that shares the montague street tunnel with the M and N now. is the combined frequency of the M and N less than 12.5tph? M and N trains each have peak headways of 8 to 10 minutes. if we accept a value of 9 minutes, then were talking about 6.66 each and 13.33 total. if the R can share a tunnel with 13.33 trains an hour, whats wrong with 12.5? of course, it is true that the turnaround might be a problem.
then again, we can only wait and see how widely used the V becomes. perhaps 10 480's would be enough.
How many tph can turn at Continental? Remember, the G was cut back to Court Square because it couldn't turn along with the R and V.
I thought the bottleneck was Queens Plaza...?
Not according to what I read here, but you may be right.
Not yet, but just wait till Mon. 12/17/01!
Exactly. There is a net reduction of one service Essex-Broad and W4-WTC.
1) Divert the C to Houston Street and send to Metropolitan Av.
2) Extend the E to Euclid whenever the C runs now.
3) Divert the V to WTC. No service weekends.
Switching between 8th/6th at W4 is difficult at best; doing so during rush hour would reduce tph.
Switching there is no more (or less) difficult than merging anywhere else. Yes, there's a cost in terms of capacity, but I don't know if that would have an impact on actual service.
doing so during rush hour would reduce tph.
The following is the 1949 service levels through W 4th.
8th Ave Exp: 15-A's to Euclid Ave via Chambers St
8th Ave Exp: 4 C's to Hoyt-Schermerhorn via Chambers St
8th Ave Loc: 15 CC's to Hudson Terminal
8th Ave Loc: 15 E's to Bway-Lafayette
6th Ave Loc: 11 D's to Hudson Terminal
6th Ave Loc: 15 F's to Church Ave via Bway-Lafayette
On time performance for the IND Division was 99.24% with terminal arrival delay at terminal in excess of 3 minutes being considered late.
Where's that reduced tph?
1949 was before the 6Av express tracks when thru from Herald Sq to W4. Two tracks of service went into W4 from 6th. It was easy to send 8th Av service to the extra tracks leading to B'way Lafayette.
1949 was before the 6Av express tracks when thru from Herald Sq to W4. Two tracks of service went into W4 from 6th. It was easy to send 8th Av service to the extra tracks leading to B'way Lafayette.
The connection from 8th Ave local tracks went on to the Houston St local tracks. The through service on Houston St was via the local tracks. The E and F merged onto a single track (the local) before approaching Bway-Lafayette. That is the same operation that is required today, with a turnaround at 2nd Ave. What you said would have been possible had the E gone to Church and the F turned around at B-L. However, this would have denied any 6th Ave service to Brooklyn.
The new 6th Ave express tracks do not add to the complexity one bit.
Would the lack of the 6th Ave express tracks made the 99.24% on time performace any easier?
What was the original plan for 2nd Ave on the F line. They are now going to use it as a turn around again in Dec. Why was it built as an "express" station originaly. Where do the center tracks lead?
The station wasn't built as an express station. The tracks end shortly past the false wall that was there (I believe one train length/600 ft). This track map shows the configuration .
Peace,
ANDEE
Anything with the Confuscious Square 2nd Ave segment in it to get an idea where it was relative to what is in use today?
avid
Yeah, but there must have been a reason that they built 2nd Ave like that. It must be a provision for some kind of service. Why else would it be two platforms and 4 tracks, not to just end the center tracks at a wall.
it was suppose to connect to the 'ind second system', a new tunnel into brooklyn, which was never built.
correct, tunnel under Houston St to Brooklyn
The "express" tracks would have led to S. 4th St.
here's one to puzzle the mind:
beyond where the false wall was, heading east, there's the short tunnel of approximately one 1 train length - but there is also a mezzanine of sorts above the tracks, not far beyond the platform. you walk up a set of steps to an walkway that parallels, just above the tracks, back to the platform, then contains a second set of steps up to the mezzanine which is over the 2 tail 'express' tracks. there's no access to the street above, nor does it seem that such was planned.
anyone got any ideas why that is up there?
here's one to puzzle the mind:
beyond where the false wall was, heading east, there's the short tunnel of approximately one 1 train length - but there is also a mezzanine of sorts above the tracks, not far beyond the platform. you walk up a set of steps to an walkway that parallels, just above the tracks, back to the platform, then contains a second set of steps up to the mezzanine which is over the 2 tail 'express' tracks. there's no access to the street above, nor does it seem that such was planned.
anyone got any ideas why that is up there?
I believe this was meant to be part of the never-built IND Second System. Those tail tracks were intended to lead into a new East River tunnel.
yeah, that's what i've heard/read about the tail tracks - but it's this particular mezzanine above the tail tracks that makes no sense. there's no obvious reason for it to be up there... it seems to have been designed to be an exit as part of the station, perhaps never completed?
Perhaps it was to lead to a Second Ave line? A pedestrian transfer from line to line.
avid
this is what i was thinking, but didn't the second av cross at 2nd av? this is east of the 1st. av exit, towards ave. a.
i think joe brennan's website states the provision to connect to the 2nd av line that was built in this station is used at the second av. exit end- as part of some office/storage rooms or something along them lines? in any case my mystery location is at the opposite end of the platform.
The 2nd Ave Subway was supposed to cross over the F line at the west end of the station. Over 2nd Ave. The tail tracks are over the 1st Ave exit.
You are right, I stand corrected.
Reading the other posts, I can only agree,.
Avid
I believe this was meant to be part of the never-built IND Second System. Those tail tracks were intended to lead into a new East River tunnel.
Now it makes more sense, why 2nd Ave was built like that. Was that possibly for that main trunk line that was supposed to parallel the Broadway el in Brooklyn, the South 4th St subway, I believe?
I believe this was meant to be part of the never-built IND Second System. Those tail tracks were intended to lead into a new East River tunnel.
Now it makes more sense, why 2nd Ave was built like that. Was that possibly for that main trunk line that was supposed to parallel the Broadway el in Brooklyn, the South 4th St subway, I believe?
I believe so.
As far as the partial mezzanine is concerned, it might have been designed for the larger crowds that would have been at the station had the Second System been built.
The details of what was planned for the 2nd IND system can be found somewhere else at this site. As I understand it, two tunnels would have gone to Brooklyn, one from Houston off of the 2nd Av station, and another line along East Broadway and Worth St, apparently tying into the 8th Av local (presumably, there's a bell there). They would have met in Williamsburgh at an extant, partially built station, 'South 3rd St' or the such, connecting with the B'lyn-Qns crosstown line. It seems they planned on 'competing' with the Broadway/Jamaica El, with a branch running down to Utica Av, and apparently, all sorts of wonderful connections that would have made sense of the current G line alignment.
You have the general idea. South of Canal St on both local tracks I have noticed bellouts there for years.
About 1989 I was working at Broadway Station one day and I took a walk toward the closed end. I passed the site of the former Part Time Booth (Nothing there now but rubble) At the extreme other end of the mezzazine I saw a huge stairway. 5 whatever there're called things across. It was meant for heavy traffic. At the top of the stairway was a passageway that went off into the dark distance. The mezzazine was dark fom the middle onward. My flashlight could not peer thru that darkness. I took pictures of the walk. But it wasn't until I read about the second system that it all made sence. There was also a spot at the Utica Ave station where one could look up thru a door with missing air stats onto the unused platform.
There was also a spot at the Utica Ave station where one could look up thru a door with missing air stats onto the unused platform.
I didn't know about 'the unused platform' at Utica (presumably, IND Fulton St. Utica). There's a tie-in there?
From the main booth you would walk down the ramp to the lower mezzazine. There there was a fence there. Go thru the gate and there would be a big tiled wall with a single door there. The door had a couple of slots missing. I put a flashlight to it and I was looking up to a platform from what was probably the roadbed on the n/b local.
The wall and the door is gone now. With the reconstruction that happened there it was redone. But on the overpass the stairways to that platform is still there. If I get a chance to work there again,I'll take a good look at it.
You can plainly see the station shell from the active platforms.
From the active platform all you can see of the shell is the bottom of the roadway as it crosses over. Where do you see the shell?
You can see the sides as well.
I believe a subway branch was to run off of that competing subway under Myrtle Ave to Glendale and Central Ave in Glendale, but I don't know where after that.
It would have joined the LIRR Rockaway branch and gone all the way to the Rockaways. The Winfield Spur was also supposed to tie into this line.
<<"As I understand it, two tunnels would have gone to Brooklyn, one from Houston off of the 2nd Av station, and another line along East Broadway and Worth St, apparently tying into the 8th Av local (presumably, there's a bell there).">>
Yes, there is a bell there. When it was possible (pre 9/11) to ride the E all the way to the Trade Center, you'd see the bell just south of Canal Street, on your left.
And if you were in the back of a n/b E leaving Chambers St, you would see a bell just before entering Canal St.
<<"two tunnels would have gone to Brooklyn, ... another line along East Broadway and Worth St, apparently tying into the 8th Av local (presumably, there's a bell there).">>
Yes, there is a bell there. When it was possible (pre 9/11) to ride the E all the way to the Trade Center, you'd see the bell just south of Canal Street, on your left.
So what is now a separate set of tracks leading to a stub terminal (the former Hudson Terminal, now WTC) actually had a bell on it? Or hadn't the four tracks been split out yet at that point? (Don't have my track book) Does Peter Dougherty's track book show the bell?
The bells south of Canal St had NOTHING to do with the WTC. They were supposed to have been a subway that would have transfered with the F at East B'way and then go to S4 St to meet up with the line coming from 2nd Ave on the F. The line went AWAY from the WTC.
The closed roadway of the PATH line was never intended to link up with any other underground railway. The closest it came to a subway was to run along side the R line at Cortlandt St. Long befire the WTC was built.
What is left of the old station. It was I believe east of the current (if you can call it that) Path station at WTC. There was some talk of using it when they redo the area. What is still there, in the way of platforms, tracks, etc, if anything?
What is left of the old station. It was I believe east of the current (if you can call it that) Path station at WTC. There was some talk of using it when they redo the area. What is still there, in the way of platforms, tracks, etc, if anything?
All platforms and tracks have been removed from the former Hudson Terminal PATH station, located between the IRT 1 line and the BMT N/R line. The "box" is still there, and the PA is studying whether to reactivate it. It would have to be increased from six-car length to accept 10-car PATH trains.
PA's goal is to get it to interchange better with the many subway lines in the area, specifically connecting to the Fulton (4,5)-Fulton (J,M,Z)-Broadway/Nassu (A,C)-Fulton (2,3) complex.
<<<"So what is now a separate set of tracks leading to a stub terminal (the former Hudson Terminal, now WTC) actually had a bell on it? Or hadn't the four tracks been split out yet at that point?">>>
Yes, I believe the bell is on the stub-tracks, to WTC on the E only. It turns SE from the E tracks.
>>>I believe this was meant to be part of the never-built IND Second System. Those tail tracks were intended to lead into a new East River tunnel. <<<
Would this tunnel have connected with what we now know as The Transit Museum?
Peace,
ANDEE
No. It would have gone to Williamsburgh, where the Broadway station on the G is located.
The tracks going to the Transit Museum are connected to Hoyt St on the A, C and G lines.
Were they intended to go to Manhattan through a tunnel from Court St Station, or was it to be a stub from the beginning. It looks like it may have been a provision for something.
I had heard at one point years ago it was going to be connected with the BMT Broadway line just south of Whitehall St. Before it meets up with the Nassau St line south of Broad St. But that was something I don't think is correct. Then again considering the 8th Ave local is poised to take over the BMT line just north of Cortlandt St. Maybe there was a plan to do that. I haven't seen anything like that in any sites about the subways.
Can you elaborate on the 8th Ave local taking over the BMT line just north of Cortlandt St.? Is this part of the idea for LIRR service to lower Manhattan? (Perhaps this was discussed earlier but I've only been reading this board for a short time).
The E terminates at WTC. If one was to continue straight ahead thru the wall, it would meet up with the BMT line which had made a right hand turn leaving City Hall and making a left hand turn before entering Cortlandt. The placement of the street stairways upstaits suggests it. When Mayor Hylan was planning the IND he had plans of his subway "recapturing" certain parts of the BMT. The ramp from Church Ave to Ditmas Ave on the F line is an example of it.
The E terminates at WTC. If one was to continue straight ahead thru the wall, it would meet up with the BMT line which had made a right hand turn leaving City Hall and making a left hand turn before entering Cortlandt.
Hmmmmmm. Saw that on the MTA's very nice Lower Manhattan map, issued post 9/11.
Would there be any operational benefits to be derived from connecting the E to the N/R? If they're doing subway work ... NOW'S THE TIME!
But, while I'm all for interconnecting everything -- what are the capacity issues? Routings? Changes necessary? Would riders use it? Would anyone want it?
(After lots of Metro North/Amtrak/LIRR considerations, this one sounds like a piece of cake, though!)
One benefit would be 8th Ave line accees to South Ferry (Whitehall). The E could in fact terminate there on the center track.
Would there be any operational benefits to be derived from connecting the E to the N/R?
Yes!
This is my favorite fantasy project, one that is actually doable at a reasonable cost, and if done right, would be of enormous benefit to Brooklyn.
Aside from a direct 8th Av connection from DeKalb, making the Montague tube and the two stations before and after it one-way during rush hour (AM to Manhattan, PM from), you can actually increase capacity. The cost is losing counterflow service at Rector, Whitehall, Court St-Borough Hall and Lawrence.
The switch would be at the Brighton's Montague switch, with half of Brighton service taking over the counterflow track (some construction, probably complicated construction, would be necessary). This would remove about half of the 6th Av bridge service -- which would be picked up by reopening the Chrystie connection and/or by increasing the number of trains going thru the Rutgers tube.
In Manhattan, half the 8 Av local turns back at Chambers, and half of the BMT service turns back at City Hall. Since the connection from Chambers IND to Cortlandt BMT would entail some major revision of the Cortlandt station, the turn back might be accomplished here instead, perhaps on a new lower platform. Widening the line to 3 tracks would allow full service to Whitehall.
The present Broad St. service would be unaffected.
What I would do is install platform gates/doors at the affected stations, allowing very fast *express* service via Montague from DeKalb, with the first stop at Cortlandt. I suspect you'd cut 4 or 5 minutes from the current run.
It's not as easy as it looks unless you completely eliminate the BMT connection along Vescey St. between Cortlandt and City Hall, which would then cut off the Broadway line from the Southern Division if anything happens to the Manny B. Because of the locations of the two existing stations and the layout of the tracks, any connection between the N/R tracks and the E tracks would have to be bi-level is some fashion to avoid a grade crossing for the uptown tracks from the Broadway to the Eighth Ave. line.
Obviously, there's no need for the E to stop at both Chambers/WTC and Cortlandt, but if you eliminate the Cortlandt St. station, the N/R no longer have a stop at the WTC area. On the other hand, if you build a flying junction, there's no way to get the tracks to the Eighth Avenue line underneath the Brooklyn-bound Broadway tracks and back up again before entering the Cortlandt St. station, unless you move the uptown platform south towards Liberty Street. That's because the 'S' curve from Church to Vescey St. for the N/R limits where you can build a bell mouth to ramp the track for the E train down to link up with the existing Chambers St. local tracks -- the new track would have to be at least a level below the N/R tracks by the time they swerve onto Vescey to allow the Broadway tracks to pass over it.
Other than shifting the uptown platform about 1 1/2 blocks south (Shades of the 42nd-Eighth Ave. IND station), the only workable solution would be to put the bell mouths for the Eighth Ave. connections between Rector and Cortlandt, and drop the new tracks down a level beneath the N/R tracks there. Then you could either have a bi-level station at Cortlandt St., with the N/R on top and the E below, and close the existing Chambers/WTC local terminal, or you could relocate the Chambers/WTC stop about 100 feet north, giving the new E tracks a chance to rise back up to the current platform level.
And don't forget the new flying junction would have to pass above the A/C tracks turning off Church and onto Fulton Street. I think those tracks are far enough below the N/R tracks at Fulton to allow a set of tracks to pass in-between, since they're about 3 1/2 levels below ground at Broadway, but that may not be the case.
JLee: Very cool, exactly what I look to SubTalkers for. Thanks ....
It's not as easy as it looks unless you completely eliminate the BMT connection along Vescey St. between Cortlandt and City Hall
Clearly that's not a viable option. This should add flexibility, not rearrange the system.
the only workable solution would be to put the bell mouths for the Eighth Ave. connections between Rector and Cortlandt, and drop the new tracks down a level beneath the N/R tracks there. Then you could either have a bi-level station at Cortlandt St., with the N/R on top and the E below, and close the existing Chambers/WTC local terminal
Seems the simplest solution would be to eliminate current WTC/nee Hudson Terminal (E) and Cortlandt (N/R) stations altogether as part of WTC infrastructure rebuild. Replace with an entirely new bilevel Cortlandt/WTC station with E below and N/R above, with the flying junction between this and Rector. This station can be connected in places to the new PATH station on the old Hudson Terminal site.
don't forget the new flying junction would have to pass above the A/C tracks turning off Church and onto Fulton Street. I think those tracks are far enough below the N/R tracks at Fulton to allow a set of tracks to pass in-between
Having trouble picturing this. From my MTA 9/11 street/track map, the A/C tracks seem to turn east well north of the WTC (E) station. Dougherty's track book, though, shows the turn south of the WTC station. I had assumed that the local E tracks could be extended south and dropped from their current grade since the A/C tracks had already been dropped and turned east onto Fulton. But I don't know the station. True?
The A/C tracks have to turn north before the south end of the WTC(E) station. Otherwise, they would be in the "bathtub" area. They are also fairly deep, because they are (as the last line built) the lowest level at the Fulton/Broadway/Nassau complex.
When rebuilding, they should take the time to come up with a new plan for downtown transit, not just rebuild quickly.
With little work, you could have a combinded Cortlandt (N/R), WTC(E), Cortland (1/9) and PATH complex. This could connect by a pedestrian concourse to the Fulton/Broadway/Nassau complex a block east. You might also be able to hook up by pedestrian concourse the Park Place (2/3) and Chambers Street (A/C) stations.
With little work, you could have a combinded Cortlandt (N/R), WTC(E), Cortland (1/9) and PATH complex. This could connect by a pedestrian concourse to the Fulton/Broadway/Nassau complex a block east. You might also be able to hook up by pedestrian concourse the Park Place (2/3) and Chambers Street (A/C) stations.
I'm curious as to whether the TA is talking actively with the PA about projects like these. I hope so ....
We do know that the PA is actively considering replacing the current deep PATH station, built when the WTC was, with a new station located further east on the site of the old Hudson Terminal station. The site would have to be lengthened from 6 to 10 car platforms, but it seems that could be done (just) in the N-S distance between Vesey & Liberty Streets.
That would move PATH from west of IRT to east, between IRT (1/9) and BMT (N/R). PA has said that part of the purpose of this is to connect PATH to the Fulton (4/5)-Fulton (J/M/Z)-Broadway/Nassau (A/C)-Fulton (1/2) complex.
I'd LOVE to see a single megastation incorporating IND (E) on the lower level, BMT (N/R) upper level, connected to PATH with E-W connex underground. (Too much to hope for cross-platform transfers between PATH and IND/BMT, I suppose. Now THAT would be a true transit hub.) That could then connect to Fulton-Fulton-Bway/Nassau-Fulton underground as well. Probably the largest interline connection point in the city, yeah? Though getting from PATH to 1/2 would be a ridiculously complex travel path even if possible.
Dunno where the 1/9 fits into this, though. Hope they move it west to give BPC and WFC some transit.
Park Place and Chambers already are connected to the E station by passenger concourse. There's no reason I can see not to add the two Cortlandts and PATH to the mix -- all within fare control, except PATH.
all within fare control, except PATH
Are there any plans to use MetroCards for PATH access? Could be as simple as a second swipe -- don't have to mix the accounting, just make it easier for passengers who wouldn't have to have two separate systems.
A good analogy is that you can use EZpass in the Massachusetts "FastPass" toll gates. They have their system, but it reads EZpass as well (and you don't have to slow down as much either as a bonus!).
Anyone know?
I don't see what that would be difficult at all, and it would certainly be very helpful.
The DOT/private bus lines accept MetroCard. They even accept and grant MetroCard transfers.
Yes, it is being considered, or at least it was before 9/11. My guess is all that was put on hold while the fight, er, plan about the rebuilding.
NJT has a pilot program to have the Path Quickcard on the back of the NJT fare media; if you buy a ticket from the right TVM you'll be able to notice that it has both PATH and NJT warnings.
The A/C tracks turn from the west side of Church onto Fulton, probably cutting the corner a little bit behind the church, but definitely cutting over at the south (Vescey St.) end of the Chambers/WTC station on the E. The A/C tracks have to drop down low enough at B'way-Nassau to allow the bi-level Nassau St. BMT tracks to pass above them, but how deep they are at Church/Vescey would be something someone connected with the MTA would probably be able to answer better than I can.
A block north of Vesey they are the same level as the E terminal platform or the N/R Cortlandt St station, i.e., one level down (the mezzanine level of the WTC).
They clearly start dropping as they curve eastward and they have to get below the N/R tracks as they cross under the cemetery, so it doesn't look like there would be any trouble getting them to drop down another level by the time they get to the north end of the Cortlandt St station. Another possibility might be for them not to drop but to merge into the N/R tracks as they swing west from Broadway to Church St.
The A/C tracks just miss the corner of the WTC bathtub, and at that place are one level below the E tracks (WTC Station). The A/C crosses under the E and the N/R lines. The N/R tracks are on the same level as the E tracks (as stated in an earlier post).
The advantage now is that the whole area is open. Everything inside the bathtub, and much just outside it (like the downtown N/R platform) has to be ripped out and rebuilt. Any, you have 16 acres to work with.
The while the E terminal and the N/R tracks are on the same level, and no more than 30 feet apart from each other at Vescey, a direct connection is only possible if you're willing to accept a grade level crossover, where the uptown track headed for the Eighth Ave. line crosses the downtown N/R track, similar to the M crossover of the J/Z tracks east of B'way/Myrtle. But the delays that would result on the downtown N/R north of Cortlandt and the uptown E/N/R lines south of Cortlandt would make the connection more of a pain than it was worth (though the addition of the E south of Cortlandt would likely mean N service would only run via bridge, since there are too many E, N and R trains per hour for them all to share one tunnel).
The N/R tracks at Cortlandt is too close to the surface to run a flying junction for the E over the existing BMT tunnels, so any connector would have to go below, and if there's not enough clearance between the N/R tracks and the A/C tracks to squeeze in another line, then theere would be two options:
The A/C tracks would either have to be lowered to make space available (costly, and creates delays since the A would have to be routed via Rutgers and the C abandoned in Brooklyn while the tunnel level was dropped), or the new connection for the E would have to split off from the N/R tracks between Cortlandt and Rutgers and drop low enough to both pass under the A/C tracks at Fulton, but do it fast enough so a station could be built on the new level for Cortlandt-WTC passengers that wasn't at too much of an angle (or at least no more than the N/R station is at Rector).
Doing that would require the existing BMT tunnel on Trinity/Church to be supported, and would probably also force some reroutes over the Manny B or resumption of the post-9/11 emergency J/M Brooklyn service while work was being done. And an E tunnel deep enough to get below the A/C tracks would also have to rise quickly north of Vescey to avoid running into the three-level-deep IRT 2/3 tunnel on Park Place. That also means the existing Chambers/WTC station would have to be abandoned completely -- no big deal if the station was moved south to Cordlandt, but almost everything else involved with the plan is.
And to make this a double plus,use the old Court st stub[Fulton local tracks]connect them to the BMT East River tunnel west of COURT ST[simluar to the Nassau st merge].
A few days ago I read a cryptic remark, probably in Newsday (sorry, I don't have the reference any more) that the MTA was considering, in the wake of the 9/11 disaster, the possibility of extending the LIRR to lower Manhattan via the C train tracks. No more details than that.
This seems to fit in with some of the discussions in this thread. Maybe the idea is to put the C through the Montague St tunnel and therefore have more capacity in the Fulton St. tunnel?? Or maybe use the unused local tracks through Hoyt Schermerhorn to get to the Montague tunnel?? All sorts of possibilities, I guess, but I haven't seen any more details anywhere.
The LIRR runs long big heavy trains, bigger and heavier than subway trains. The only possible way to get the LIRR downtown is (1) via 10th Ave and West Street, via a complex cut at 3rd Ave into the LIRR tunnels, and thence downtown under 3rd and Bowery to an inadequate terminus at about Foley Sq, or (3) via a new tunnel from West St/Battery. to Atlantic Avenue. The first two are colossally expensive, while the third is merely extraordinarily expensive.
I too am interested in what these vague suggestions about a LIRR connection to lower Manhattan really mean. I suspect those who spread these stories don't understand the infrastructure realities.
Now: a Battery-Atlantic Av super-express subway line would have almost the same result as extending the LIRR itself. The only intervening station after Jamaica would be something under the Atlantic/Pacific station.
Better than that would be to make the connection to Brooklyn that was supposed to be made with the building of the IND Second System. That line is really needed now, and there would be a real reduction in the crowding on the current lines with the addition of this. Plus, an alternate route into Brooklyn would be useful indeed should any more of Bin Laden's misfits decide to perpetrate any more monstrous mischief. They did it before and they might just try it again.
Absolutely. It'd be more expensive, though, than the skimpy 2nd Av they are supposedly getting ready to build.
You'd build it pretty much as they planned it, to the South 3rd station in W'burgh.
My own thoughts would split the G, each taking two tracks. The northern branch would go to Queens, setting off a major reconfiguration of what goes into Qns Plaza, in that the G would offer *direct* lower Manhattan service from Queens.
Short term, the Brooklyn stretch would be unchanged, going into Hoyt-S onto thence the Culver, but long term, additional connections would be built. You'd have a long haul local from Culver going to Manhattan via Houston or E B'way.
The 2 express tracks that start to continue east of 2nd Ave was supposed to have been a seperate subway that would have continued along E Houston St, go under the East River to Brooklyn then make a transfer at South 4th Street. That would have been at Broadway on the G. Just look up info about the IND Second System for more info.
Yes, that is correct. There are also a few new direct routings that currently require transfers.
Interesting proposal, but it would lead to a thoroughly confusing system. People are used to 8th Ave service going to Fulton St, Willy B service to Nassau and 6th Ave service to southern brooklyn via the bridge or tunnel.
In no time people would become used to Willy B service going onto 6th ave. It would avoid a switch of trains for alot of people at Essex-Delancy. I don't know why they don't try using that service again.
Because it failed to draw enough riders to justify it. Why spend millions of dollars and allocate precious rolling stock to a failed line whose only tangible benefit is to eliminate a walk down a flight of stairs?
Are those polatforms at Canal wide enough to handle both North and Southbound passengers. It doesn/t seem to be
If they send the 2nd Av down Centre, that means the number of trains going downtown from the Will Bridge will be compromised by about 50% (the other 2nd Av trains would go to B'lyn via the Rutger St. tube, which has unused capacity). Would they bring back the Chrystie connection to th 6th Av?
Going down Water St. makes much more sense, even if it's more expensive.
There are no plans to operate Second Avenue trains to Brooklyn under either option for building the lower part of the line.
By the way, how would Second Avenue trains that utilize the Nassau/Centre Streets Line access the Rutgers Street Tubes? The "BJ" tracks "south" of Essex Street point northward, toward the Sixth Avenue Line.
David
Some service would divert eastward onto Houston (via 1st St perhaps), and if not into the 2nd Av station, at least into the Rutgers tube.
Not according to any plan MTA has presented, unless I've missed one. Is there a source for this information?
David
With the Centre St option, it seems I have just always assumed a link via Houston to Rutgers was in the cards, as it is so logical. It seems I'm wrong.
You reactivate the old KK Willy B service into 6th Av. Half of the WB service goes to 6th, the other half to Broad to turn back; about half of the 2nd Av service goes to Brooklyn (we assume the Centre St. line will have its stations lengthened to full IND status). The rest of the 2nd Av service takes the Rutgers route to Brooklyn (as I said, the Rutgers tube is underutilized).
This would make a connection from Culver to Brighton via Prospect Park the next logical step.
This way, ALL of the 2nd Av trains would go to Brooklyn, with NO cutback in service via the Williamsburgh Bridge. From what I've been reading here, no real increase in thru service to Brooklyn is contemplated by the Centre St. option. My version of it most certainly does deliver an increase in service. And this is probably where I made my mistake: one just assumes the Powers That Be would have automatically made the same assumptions.
The connection into the Rutgers line would probably be expensive -- perhaps as expensive and complex as hooking up the 63rd St tube. My solution is to simply burrow under the current 2nd Av station thence into the Rutgers line, skipping this station altogether. It occurs to me however, that it's actually possible to shut down Rutgers service for a few months, with messy shuttles into Hoyt-Schermerhorn, to make such a hookup simpler and considerably cheaper.
Who says Williamsburg Bridge service would be cut back?
David
Having all Williamsburgh service turn back at City Hall or Canal does count as a cutback.
Who said that trains coming off the Williamsburg Bridge would be terminating at City Hall (no doubt meaning Chambers Street) or Canal Street? This whole thread seems to be a series of suppositions based on suppositions based on something somebody made up.
David
Perhaps. But explain to me how one maintains current Williamsburg Bridge service *intact* while sending 2nd Av trains into Centre St. and on to Brooklyn via Montague. It cannot be done!
Supposition 1: Williamsburg Bridge service would be cut back to Chambers Street/Canal Street.
Supposition 2: Second Avenue service would run through to southern Brooklyn.
Supposition 3: There's a NEED for Williamsburg Bridge service to run through to southern Brooklyn (and, conversely, for service from southern Brooklyn to continue over the Williamsburg Bridge and into eastern Brooklyn and then Queens) and that need would remain after Second Avenue service took over the routing (should that happen).
Supposition 4: Should these needs be identified, the Montague Street Tunnel does not have sufficient capacity to handle all of the service.
By the time all this happens (if ever), the Manhattan Bridge should be back to full strength, meaning that some service that now uses the tunnel will be on the bridge instead (let's say the N, since that was the case before all the bridge work started). The capacity of the Montague Street Tunnel, nominally, is 30 trains an hour in each direction. Right now, NYCT is running approximately a 6-minute headway on the R (which is 10 trains an hour) and about an 8-minute headway on the M (which is roughly 8 trains an hour). That's 17. Let's assume that R service increases to a 5-minute headway (12 trains an hour) to provide sufficient service to lower Manhattan via Broadway (which may or may not be necessary -- I'd have to check with the planning people to see how many Broadway Line passengers are using the via-tunnel section). That's still 20 trains an hour on a section of line that has a capacity of 30. So, 10 Second Avenue/Nassau Street/Montague Street Tunnel trains an hour is doable. That's not to say that it will be done or even that it should be done, just that it COULD be done. Of course, this then branches off into a question as to where those extra trains go once they're in Brooklyn (after all, they have to terminate SOMEWHERE).
David
I don't quite know if we're disagreeing, but this has clarified exactly what the Centre St. option for the 2ndAv entails.
I find it difficult to believe that they underutilize the Montague tube during rush hour, even with the ManBridge down, but I will take your word for it.
the most recent info i know of concerning allignments for the 2nd ave subway that the mta is considering is available on their website at:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/index.html
although i believe that a water street connection would be best because service would be provided to new areas of the lower east side, i see a very obvious solution that would work for running 2nd ave trains through the centre street tunnel.
-combine the V and M trains into one line that crosses the willy-b and runs up 6th ave to the 53 st tunnel to queens.
-J trains can continue to Broad street while 2nd aves could replace the M to brooklyn.
this would allow 15tph on each route and provide a beautiful system of transfers and connections. also brooklyn service to manhattan would effectively be increased without new east river tunnels routes because the present M is severely underused while 2nd ave trains running local on 4th ave in brooklyn would presumably attract many more riders by adding one seat access to east midtown.
as for a second ave connection to the culver, forget it. as far as im concerned, theres no demand for more than 15tph on that route. a transfer is already planned for the 2nd ave to the culver at houston and a transfer would be available to the N and Q at canal (assuming that in 2004 the mta reverts to its former service where the B and D ran the MB to 6th express and the N and Q took the MB to the b-way express).
if by some miracle the gowanus is replaced by a tunnel and the neighborhoods in the vicinty of the gowanus canal experience a revitalizing wave of redevelopment and industrial-residential conversion leading to demand above and beyond 15tph on the culver, then F trains could be run express at 15tph with Gs running 15tph local to church with an additional 15tph shuttle from church to 2nd ave also running local. local riders who dont opt to transfer to the AC at jay (and hopefully R and 2nd ave local at lawrence if a walking transfer is introduced), the J at delancey, or 2nd ave trains at 2nd will have a quick cross transfer connection to continuing 6th ave F service at 2nd ave (local brooklyn-shuttle F's wouldnt be able to continue to 6th local because combined M-V would use the other half of 6th aves local capacity).
combine the V and M trains into one line that crosses the willy-b and runs up 6th ave to the 53 st tunnel to queens. M.
They'd have to lengthen the platforms/beef up the structure of the B'lyn B'way & Myrtle Av els. Or are you suggesting 480 foot V trains, instead of 600 footers?
sure. 480ft/600ft... either/or. either way queens boulevard will get additional manhattan service and broadway/myrtle will have easier access to midtown. if service is pushed to 15tph, capacity shouldnt be a problem as mta only intends to run (i think) 10 V's per hour. also G trains that the V will replace aren't full length as it is.
I think your idea sounds like a great idea, and it would be easier than building a new line under water st, and utilize the under used Nassau St line.
So when the 2nd Ave subway opens they could......
- Get rid of the V, replace with the M from Metro to Continental via Chrystie St, 6th Ave, and 53rd St. The M would be orange-6th Ave local.
- The J would run as it does from Jamaica to Broad on the current SOUTHBOUND platforms of Nassau St line at Canal and Chambers.
- The new 2nd Ave line (X) would run from Brooklyn 4th Ave (replacing the current M) via Montague St on the NORTHBOUND platforms at Canal and Chambers up to the new 2nd ave subway.
- Bowery would use just the Southbound platform in both directions. Northbound abandoned, which is the plan anyway.
- Can this be done, did I miss anything?
it would probably require a decent amount of track work, but it would be even better if the J could use the inner track set for canal, chambers to allow cross platform transfers at canal.
of course if we agree that 30 tph is possible for one set of tracks, then we could have both lines run up to 15tph on the set the mta plans to keep in revenue service and just have the J turnaround in the dead end tracks south of broad where it currently operates to. it would be a shame (and probably incite claims of discrimination - the brooklyn broadway and 4th ave local have different ridership constituencies) if J riders had to transfer just to get to their most likely non-transfer destination - the financial district, not to mention the loss of direct transfers between the J and the 2,3,A,C.
speaking of transfers, wouln't it be nice if the MTA built a transfer from bowery to grand?
speaking of transfers, wouln't it be nice if the MTA built a transfer from bowery to grand?
For what purpose? From 6th Avenue, there already is a transfer via the F. From Brooklyn (assuming both sides of the bridge will be open when the north side reopens), there already is a transfer at Canal, as well as through service on weekdays.
I wouldn't mind a transfer there, but there are higher priorities.
Yes there is, if you read the official 2nd Ave. page of the MTA's website. The Centre St. option is specifically designed to allow access to the new line from trains running through the Flatbush Ave corridor & Montague St. tunnel.
I was reading it as "Chris" was posting, as it happens! The description says, under the listing of stations under the Nassau/Centre Streets Line option, "Broad St & Wall St (trains can continue to Brooklyn)." So, yes, the idea of running into Brooklyn is under consideration (I was incorrect before), but the description doesn't say that it WILL happen, only that it CAN happen -- this assuming that the line gets built in the first place...
David
That's one proposal. I doubt it, though.
Sorry I still don't get it.
Simplification. The 4 track alignment no longer makes sense. The Nassau/Centre St. no longer needs all those tracks as they did in it's early days when the line had service from Canarsie & the Manhattan bridge to accomodate.
Last night I went to check out the width of the current Woodhaven Blvd. Station and the structureal supports.
They are the same as the rest of the structure with the exception of "L" angle beams to support the platforms. I failed to see and greater setback of the building structures to allow space for widening.
The station could possiibly be converted, but it would necessate swaping the local tracks with the platforms. A lot of iron work. It might be advantages to examine the Express station at 61st St/Woodside or Junction Blvd on the #7 Flushing/Times Sq. Line.
Maybe the never Used as an express Station on the Myrtle Line. I think these were all built to Dual Contract Specs.
It is Not built with a thought for conversion at a later date, as the IND Woodhave BLVD station on Queens Blvd.
avid
What was the point of building all those stations on the J line as "local" stations? I know the express track was never installed full length, but the provision is obviously there, for an express track from what was 168th st right through to Cypress Hills. But all the stations are "local" stations. Why, if there was some thought one day to express, did they not put even one potential express station in, kind of like Wyckoff on the M. (A little different, because the track actually was there at one time) The only reason Whckoff was built as an "express" station was because it was built as a provision for an above ground Canarsie line, which was changed to subway. But some thought was given there. So why a very long stetch of "local" stations on the J if the provision for a third track was put into the line anyway?
The Jamaica line was rush built because of the high demand for rapid transit. Consequently, the third track was never installed even though space was provided for it, and all stations except for 168th St. were built with side platforms.
A guess, now this is only a guess. By using the design they did, they met steel car standards and cleared the streets below of support columns. That is the columns were on the sidewalk not in the street. There are some segments in the Bronx that are in the street. They, the designers did not want to have a structure like the Atlantic Ave LIRR "EL". Plus they had this design on the shelf, the Box Girder.
There were then the allowances for layups on the few stretches of center track.
Again i wish for the Cypress Hills- Easter Parkway single track cut-off Via Jamaica Ave and an express track, 600 ft stations. Two express stops , one at Woodhaven and one at Cypress Hills.
The let the "Flying K " return.
avid
Do you really think that MTA would seriously consider building a single track el along Jamaica Ave in this day and age?
Yes, as a bi-directional express track that would bypass those station with center platforms and minimum weight standards for two track service. Yes the kind similar to the AirTrain concret single pillar type. Along the Northside of Jamaica Ave, away from any residential buildings.
They had once proposed such a cutoff in the 1967-68 Grand Plan. Maybe "rapid" could be said again with "transit" in the same sentance with out being an oxymoron.
If it weren't for all the reconstruction problems between Eastern Parkway and Cypress Hills, The Jamaica El would make a great "super Express" and an actual alternative for the QB line. I know there was talk of 3rd tracking it a few years back, but the NIMBYS I believe put a stop to that. I haven't heard any talk since then of putting in a 3rd track.
The third track would not follow the same route as the Locals between Cypress Hills and Eastern Parkway. It would remain on the northern side of Jamaica Ave . as a Bi-directional express . It wouldn't have to deal with service disruptions or platfom construction, or tight curves. Just fly over/unders at Eastern Parkway and the other at the segment between Elterts Lane and Cypress Hills.
avid
Are there still any plans to put it in?
No, not that I'm aware of.
avid
If the TA were to build an express track on new alignment, wouldn't it make more sense to include a second track to allow for bidirectional express service? Width isn't an issue (on new alignment) and the incremental cost is relatively small.
The only thing is the rest of the line would only be 3 tracks, so you would only be able to run in both ways on that particular segment, so it wouldn't be of much use.
if the TA were to build a new two set track to get traisn from jamaica to lower manhattan, 4 tracking or paralleling jamaica ave would be a waste. an underused, two track jamaica to east new york link already exists... its called the LIRR.
a better solution would be to just extend the atlantic ave LIRR to lower manhattan via atlantic ave and a new tunnel. it wouldnt be nearly as expensive as an equal length of subway because no crossovers or stations would be necessary. trains could run directly to a new station at the WTC site. eventually tunnel could extend northward to link to the hells kitchen yards and penn station thereby creating a loop through new york's no. 1, 2, and 3 CBD's: midtown, downtown, and downtown brooklyn. east side access would still be a problem, but if lirr's operate on a loop, then large terminals become unnescessary and a simple two side platform station could be built in the east thirties adjacent to the existing lirr tracks with escalator access to the 6 and the (hopefully) future 2nd ave. this wouldnt be as glamorous, or quite as convenient as a GCT link, but it would surely be cheaper!
That does seem like an opportunity missed. It would have been a good idea way back when, if the Atlantic Branch of the LIRR still went to the water. How long was the old Atlantic tunnel that is at court St. Was the whole ROW underground from Flatbush Ave terminal west? I assume not, because otherwise it may still be open.
AFAIK the Atlantic Ave. tunnel was approximately 2,000 feet long. At that time, trains ran at ground level along Atlantic Ave. The only reason the tunnel was built was because the weak locomotives of that era could not negotiate the grade east of Boerum Place.
The last time I was over in the area myself, (March 1998) I didn't see any traces of a tunnel entrence over there. I guess when the LIRR (or whatever railroad was there) did a good job of covering it up. And I'd guess the manhole cover that Bob Diamond uses to enter the tunnel looks like a plain "NYC SEWER" cover.
And I'd guess the manhole cover that Bob Diamond uses to enter the tunnel looks like a plain "NYC SEWER" cover.
It does. Don't remember what it says on it, but it's pretty nondescript.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I like dtisch?s idea the best. Why not make better use of the current LIRR Brooklyn line by extending into the former site of WTC? With a link up the West side possibly utilizing current West Side elevated - we?d have a link up to West side yards and Penn. There?s alot of merit in this idea.
Extending the LIRR from Atlantic/Flatbush Avenues to Manhattan would be colossally expensive, more expensive and probably of less utility than what an equivalent NYC subway would cost. There would have to be a terminal in lower Manhattan: the only place would be inside the WTC bathtub, and this is not likely to happen; sending it up West St. into the Penn Station yards would be even more stupendously expensive, and again, of less utility than would be a 10th Ave subway.
You could put a terminal over on the East Side, somewhere around Water between Fulton and Wall, but the biggest hassle, and biggest cost, would be getting the tracks from Flatbush and Atlantic over to the East River, because of the myriad of subway lines and other underground utilities in the way. The line would have to either be dug out several levels below where it is now at Flatbush and Atlantic to get under the IRT and BMT lines, or the line would have to veer due north sharply at the terminal and run near or through the MetroTech campus, where there are fewer tunnels than in the downtown Brooklyn area. And then it would have to dive down to get under the river.
It's not impossible, but it's not cost-effective, either unless there was some reason to build an East River tunnel (say as a Manny B replacement) that the LIRR connection could be grafted onto, like the bi-level tunnel at 63rd St.
Another possibility is to utilize the colossal Chambers St station on the BMT, giving half the station to the LIRR with a tunnel to Brooklyn heading southbound. Then LIRR passangers would have direct choices between midtown & downtown.
I'd go with the original plan. The original plan called for an M-1 type car built on an R/44 platform. That is, a 75ft LIRR car, similar seating, two entrance/exit per side...... just 10 ft shorter to be able to fit subway tunnels. Enough for the Atlantic Branch,
I beleive the idea was to run them in to Manhattan over the Manhattan Bridge, Terminal at tne under used Chambers St Station with all of its platforms and nearby connections and out to Brooklyn Via the Montauge tunnel. I beleive it was part of the proposals of 1967.
avid
I'd go with the original plan. The original plan called for an M-1 type car built on an R/44 platform. That is, a 75ft LIRR car, similar seating, two entrance/exit per side...... just 10 ft shorter to be able to fit subway tunnels. Enough for the Atlantic Branch,
I beleive the idea was to run them in to Manhattan over the Manhattan Bridge, Terminal at tne under used Chambers St Station with all of its platforms and nearby connections and out to Brooklyn Via the Montauge tunnel. I beleive it was part of the proposals of 1967.
Now there are other transit or commuter lines running 75 ft cars with seating like this. Perhaps the Washington D.C. system .
Anyone know of one?
avid
I'd go with the original plan. The original plan called for an M-1 type car built on an R/44 platform. That is, a 75ft LIRR car, similar seating, two entrance/exit per side...... just 10 ft shorter to be able to fit subway tunnels. Enough for the Atlantic Branch,
I beleive the idea was to run them in to Manhattan over the Manhattan Bridge, Terminal at tne under used Chambers St Station with all of its platforms and nearby connections and out to Brooklyn Via the Montauge tunnel. I beleive it was part of the proposals of 1967.
Now there are other transit or commuter lines running 75 ft cars with seating like this. Perhaps the Washington D.C. system .
Anyone know of one?
avid
It's my understandign that these were very early NIMBYs, like in 1958 or so......
Really, then too? It was the same story about 6-8 years ago.
I had an idea that I had posted last year on what projets that can help off load some of the traffic from the Queens Blvd line. One was to partially redo the J/Z line to accomadate an express that would start in Queens and run through Brooklyn. Here is an overview of what needs to happen, provided there is not such people as NIMBY's.
1. Start construction on Jamaica Ave to build a EL structure, like the Airtrain to carry a three track layout. Build stations the same as the current Fulton street line that is carrying the J/Z train. Alabama Ave, Van Siclen Ave, Cleveland St, Norwood Ave are all local stops. Cypress Hills/Crescent St. will become one and will be an express stop. This is phase 1.
2. Phase two will begin with the recronstruction of Woodhaven Blvd station becoming an three track express station. Simultaneously building a third track from 121st Street to the newly constructed el. Also the The point from the New Alabama station to Broadway Junction has to be rebuilt with new switches to accomadate the new trackage as well.
3. Once phase two is complete, sever the Fulton Line and run shuttles buses from Archer Ave to Broadway East New York to the new el can be connected with the existing el.
4. Restore normal service , tear down Fulton St El.
New Train Service.
J - To Bay Parkway M-F Jamaica Express Peak Direction, Nassau Street Express, West End Local.
J - To Broad St. Weekends Local in Brooklyn.
Z - To Broad Street M-F Jamaica Local, Broadway Local, Nassau Street Local.
K - To 168th Street All times Braodway Exp Peak Direction, 6th Ave Local, Central Park Local
This would provide a fast express Alternate to the city. Cost some money, but what wouldn't? Of course this is all without NIMBY's.
Frank D
I got another idea which I posted before, one which shouldn't cost that much money. Someone posted a letter where they wanted a four track Jamaica line. I felt then that a three track was more cost-efficient.
Have the Jamaica Express (Z) run express between Sutphin Blvd-Essex peak direction (AM to Manhattan, PM from Manhattan) only. Between Eastern Pkwy and Crescent, there would be a skip-stop section with the local (J) peak direction only. The express track could be extended to connect with the two local tracks west of Marcy, turning Marcy into a local station.
Jamaica Local (J) could run local between Sutphin-Essex, except for the skip-stop section (again peak-direction only).
The Myrtle Local (M) would also make local stops between Myrtle and Essex.
I'll even take this one step further and have the Z run express in both directions between Essex and Chambers. I'd have the middle two connect tracks connect with the local tracks west of Essex and wall off the two middle Nassau tracks at both Canal and Bowery. I'd break the horseshoe at Canal. The result: the Z would skip Bowery and Canal. The Z could then terminate at Broad.
It would be bad to skip Canal because that is a major transfer point. It would incovienence more people than benefit. As for bowery they can almost just shut out the lights completely. Hardly anyone ever uses that station. It has to be one of the lowest ridership in the system.
Ridership has been increasing significantly at the Bowery in the last two or three years. Since I don't ride the system very often (I don't live in NYC or commute there) I really don't know why, other than noting that some other posters have commented that it is almost exclusively Asian.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The fact that Bowery is not as dead as it used to be also could be because Grand St is not a through station for the time being, so they are using Bowery as an alternative (as long as it leads to a connection that will help them get to where they are going.)
By the way, if Bowery is one of the lowest ridership in the system, or at least in Manhattan. What station is actually the lowest in the System, or the lowest in each of the Four Boroughs the system serves.
In 1999:
Bronx: E. 143rd Street (#6): 194,144 (rank: 416)
Brooklyn: Park Place (S): 69,661 (423) NOTE: Station reopened 10/18/99 after rebuilding; otherwise:
Brooklyn: Atlantic Avenue (L): 195,366 (415)
Manhattan: Bowery: 123,815 (419)
Queens: Aqueduct Racetrack (A): 42,611 (424) NOTE: Station only open when the racetrack is open; otherwise:
Queens: B. 105th Street (A,S): 72,325 (422)
David
Which station ranks 468?
As I previously explained, there is no "468" in these rankings. The lowest station is #424, because complexes (like Grand Central) are counted as single stations.
David
Where does 42nd street rank on the A,E,C lines, and 42nd on the 4,N,R,Q lines rank?
It sickens me to go to those stations, and see 1 token booth clerk while the line is 10 deep. Or to see 1 lousy Metrocard machine at Times Square. For God's sake, we're talking about the "crossroads of the world", and the TA staffs those stations like they're Central Ave. on the M line.
Just yesterday I was buying a Metrocard at 68th on the 6 line, when ALL FOUR METROCARD MACHINES were not accepting cash. That's right. That's the TA. They threaten to reduce the number of token booth clerks, meanwhile they can't even provide sufficient service via the Metrocard machine.
What happens when the day comes that someone encounters a Metrocard machine that is "out of change", or not accepting "cash", at a station or entrance that is not staffed by a token booth clerk? You would be locked out of the system, wouldn't you?
Where's 42nd on the 4,N,R,Q?
I wouldn't really care if I couldn't use cash at my station. For one thing, I rarely allow my card to dry up entirely before refilling. For another, I always use credit cards if I can get help it (but I do carry around at least a bit of cash just in case).
IMO, if there is no way to buy a MetroCard with cash at an entire station (not just one entrance), the turnstiles should be unlocked and passengers should be allowed to enter free of charge until the problem is corrected (and I do consider a MetroCard bus parked on the street to be adequate correction). However, I don't set the rules and I don't believe this is the current policy.
Where's 42nd on the 4,N,R,Q?
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Oops. I meant 7 not 4. Traindude got me all riled up.
I use 42nd as an example, because so many tourists and out-of-towners enter the city to use the subway from that area.
You use yourself as example of someone who does not let their metrocard dip below a certain balance. Fine. But what about the tens-of-thousands who come for the day?
As far as opening turnstiles when you can't pay at the station, that's a great idea. One problem. How would the TA even know if a Metrocard machine is not functioning. And if they do know, it would be wiser to just reload the machine with change, or empty out the full cash holder.
Face it, the TA has taken it's finger off the pulse of the public years ago.
The condition of the MVM's is deplorable. But the TA got into that contract without realizing what the vendor was going to do to them, cost-wise, whenever they wanted to make changes. So part of the problem (like a machine that is out of change but can't report that to a central service depot) isn't the fault of the maintainers, but the people who got flimflammed when they purchased the system. However...
Friday night at 34th St on the 6th Ave/Broadway station (at the 32nd St. end, between the token booth and the stairwell to the right), are 3 MVM's. The right one was no bills. The middle one had a defective touch screen and couldn't be used for anything (but it was happy as a clam and about as useful) just sitting there. The left one was no bills/no single rides. Giving up, I took the N to my destination (Whitehall St.) where the MVM at the stairwell was no single rides, but at least I could buy the 4 1-day Fun Passes I needed for a friend who was coming into town for the weekend.
By the way, what genius decided that the machines should not offer to sell more than *one* Fun Pass in a single transaction? Fortunately I had a $10 and a pile of singles, but Sunday I saw a family of 6 with only $20's trying to buy some passes. It would be easy to add a menu item for "one card or more than one card" to the unlimited card menu, except for the change process that the vendor puts the TA through.
Thank you. Finally a Subtalker who is not afraid to address the real issues of the problems which exist in the TA.
The menu on the Metrocard machine is so backwards, who have to wonder what moron developed it. If the goal of the TA was to speed up the process of buying a Metrocard, they failed. In real cities, you simply walk up to the vending machine, select your option, insert your money, and you're on your way.
In New York, you have to press seven buttons on the screen, while the line builds up behind you. I thought the Metrocard was supposed to alleviate the long lines at token booths. Sometimes you stand at the Metrocard machine, and don't find out that it can't complete your transaction until you get to the sixth step.
Just more proof that the TA has taken it's finger off the pulse of the public a long time ago.
Did you ever try to buy a ticket at a NJT vending machine? They make a MVM look like childsplay.
I know it is hard to believe but they do communicate with the booth computer which communicates with Livingston Plaza. We do call in MVMS which are not fully functional but often the maintainers take their time arriving and then they may not be able to fix it. I have seen machines taped over with a handwritten out or service note.
That is why we are needed- keep the MVMs. Banks still have human tellers and ATMs- the subway needs both.
I must admit, those vending machines are inconvenient. As a New Yorker, I hate to say this but I must be real. Even Buffalo's Metro vending machines are more convenient than New York's. Over there, you can have a ticket printed up and board a train in three key strokes.
You should've seen the machine at the VERY busy Laurentina terminal last time I was in Rome - it wasn't taking notes! Seeing as their largest coin was worth about 25 Cents, it began to get VERY silly... eventually an Italian official announced in rapid Italian that people could get a free ride :D
The entire Times Square complex is counted together, including the Eighth Avenue Line station. It was #1, with 43,633,850 passengers in 1999.
David
Does the Rockaway Park branch have fewer passengers than the Far Rockaway branch?
No time to type the whole thing out, but frankly they're both pretty light. The Rock Park branch looks lighter just from skimming the page.
David
I would think the Far Rock branch gets much heavier usage than the Rock Park. There are many projects and high-rises along the entire length of the former. That's why in 1992 (?), the 'A' was changed to have all-night through service to Far Rock with an owl shuttle to Lefferts; the reverse had been the case since 1956.
People living west of Beach 116th Street are more likely to drive over the Gil Hodges Bridge, park at Sheepshead Bay and take the 'Q' - or they take the Q35 up Flatbush to the Junction and the '2'. I've known some people who do this. They say it's preferable to having to take the very long trip over the trestle and through southwest Queens and Brooklyn.
This was the prevailing attitude before 1988 when the 'E'- later 'C'- provided direct peak service to the mainland and, in 1988, expanded to M-F midday. The 1992 cutback of 'C' service from the peninsula and compensatory peak-direction through 'A' service (despite its being express through Brooklyn) only prompted more western peninsula residents to abandon the IND and head up Flatbush Avenue- or onto GB express buses.
True, the end of the Far Rock branch has the LIRR as an alternative, but most people there are not likely to pay peak-hour rates to use it.
I have friends in Rockaway who would never use the LIRR, simply because almost every scheduled train from Far Rockaway only goes to Flatbush Ave.
As for ridership levels on both branches, I think the southern end would be much more heavily patronized had the extension to Beach 149th St. been built.
I think the southern end would be much more heavily patronized had the extension to Beach 149th St. been built.
At one time, the Ocean Electric trolley did go as far as Beach 149th.
The IND second system conversion had the line extended to this spot as well. This would've given direct service to Bell Harbor as well as Rock. Park.
I'm just amazed that Atlantic Ave on the L is the lowest ridership in Brooklyn (besides shuttle) Atlantic even connects to the LIRR. I've used the L train Atlantic-LIRR East NY connection plenty of times. It really amazes me. Is there anywhere to get a link to the information on ridership ranks of the subway on line?
I'm just amazed that Atlantic Ave on the L is the lowest ridership in Brooklyn (besides shuttle)
Atlantic even connects to the LIRR.
I'm willing to bet East New York is one of the least used LIRR stations. Its connection to the (L) makes it sort of useful, but the neighborhood is likely to turn off most LIRR customers.
:-) Andrew
Yeah, It's pretty creepy, sort of in the middle of no where. It worked well the few times I've used LIRR-ENY. But I was not alone. I was with someone each time, and it was rush hours. I have to admit I was really nervous the first time, but I've gotten used to it, maybe too comfortable.
Nobody in his right mind, especially a white suburban LIRR rider, would x-fer to the L train at this station. Jamaica or Flatbush or even Woodside is infinatley more preferable saftey wise and route-selection wise.
And about Atlantic Avenue being used so little, I think the fact that it's so close to the Broadway Junction station has a lot to do with it. Particulaly, if you want to x-fer to the IND at B'way Junction, the walk from the L platform is probably more difficult than walking the length of Van Sinderen Ave from Atlantic to Fulton.
Nobody in his right mind, especially a white suburban LIRR rider, would x-fer to the L train at this station. Jamaica or Flatbush or even Woodside is infinatley more preferable saftey wise and route-selection wise.
I fit that description pretty well, yet I've made this transfer on a few occasions. No big deal.
this is nuts.....
It's more about image than reality. You're a sophisticated railfan. The average guy from Suffolk County would never transfer to the subway in East New York.
The average guy from Suffolk County would never transfer to the subway in East New York.
Can't argue with that ...
Why, whats wrong with ENY.
Sounds like someone who doesn't remember the 70's or 80's.
East New York was considered the scariest place on earth back then. The highest murder rate, burned out buildings galore. Just a very dangerous place. It's rebounded considerably, but it still has a reputation to contend with.
I live on Long Island and I've used this station quite often. I did live in Ridgewood prior to this and used the M to the L train to Atlantic-ENY LIRR plenty of times because it is faster than going to Jamaica from Ridgewood and taking the J train. This is probably why I am comfortable withthe station, but I can see why some people might be nervous about it. The first time I did it I was nervous, but I am usually with someone and it was rush hour. Maybe I have become too comfortable with this station, because I still use it sometimes, because I know some people in the Ridgewood area, even thoughgt I moved away about 8 years ago. The few times I did come into ENY-LIRR late there was always a police "Escort" to the L Atlantic subway station from the East New York station, which always brought a smile to my face, but most passengers were happy it was there. But it is very creepy late at night.
I have in my work bag a 2 page article from Newsday back in 1990 that I 've kept. It was a the number of fare evadors at each booth one day at that time. I figure the number of people who didn't pay to be sometimes way off the mark. Some clerks either didn't "see" anyone jump or they "saw" 2 or 3 with every jumper they saw. I've kept it all these years because it also had the number of paid fares for that day. It has helped me to choose what places to work for OT. 3 of the 5 busiest booths were at Grand Central. But I never looked to see what were the least busy places. Ill look at it this week and I'll get back to you about it. There was one booth I remember that day had no paid fares at all. I forget where but that was upper Manhattan.
Pretty cool...............
I admit you're right. Bowery isn't going to have much ridership when the 6 Ave side of the Manhattan Bridge returns and Canal has transfers to the Broadway line. The only reason why I even thought of skipping those two stops was to get passengers to lower Manhattan quicker.
I want to thank all of those SubTalkers who responded to my post about the recent death of my mother. I received some very nice and encouraging e-mails as well as answers to my post. There are undeed some very fine people here and I want to thank those who responded.
I don't want to appear to be a mommas boy, which I wans't. I was blessed with being raised by two caring, loving parents who were morally respectable working class people.
I welcome any replies to this, but in fairness to Dave P. please use my e-mail who I apologize for going off topic here.
Regards,
Bill "Newkirk"
Amen, brother Bill. May you have the strength to move ahead. You will!
It's not off-topic. It's family. Peter
I have been looking at the contest photos and I am worried that those who have worked hard to optimize the compression/size ratio to make their pictures viewable by all, will be at a disadvantage to whose who are saving their files with little or no compression. Many people might not have the means to be able to upload multiple 500k files and others might be forced to re-scan many photos to save them at a larger size. I would hope there can be some other solution than having everyone be forced to upload overly large image files. Aside from our time and effort, it would also be taking up more of your HD space and bandwidth.
Maybe you could try requesting those people who make it to a "final round" to upload a hi-quality image if they had not done so already.
If you have not already done so, please read the Classic Toy Trains January 2002 issue article on the MTH R21 subway set, page 116. The editor has already been notified about this travesty regarding our subway system and those throughout the world who have a high regard for its ability to transport over 4 million people a day. Subtalk participants are likely to have a strong reaction to this insult. You are asked to refrain from responding until we all respond next week, when the details of a presentation requesting a printed apology from the editor will be reported. Meanwhile, come to your own conclusion, if you will, about this internationally circulated report.
Ray,
I think Bob was just trying to put a little humor into his review. He wrote the review as if he were Mickey Spillane writing another one of his detective stories about Mike Hammer, the private eye. I think you would have not minded it if you had read one of Spillane's books.
For those of us who don't receive the MTH catalog, anyone wanna give the rest of us geese here in the back of the car the bird's eye lowdown? Curiosity killed da conductor, ya know. :)
Kevin,
Classic Toy Trains is an almost monthly magazine published by Kalmbach, the same people who give us Model Railroader magazine.
There is a section in each issue dedicated to product review where they review the latest new items. In the issue in question, Bob Keller reviewed the new MTH R-21 set. I think that Ray was taking exception to the words that Bob used in the article. Bob wrote the review as if he were making one of the famous "Mike Hammer" monologs.
i.e.The cars are painted in a Tuscan color that looks as rusty as the main gate at Sing Sing.
I think, and I emphasize that, I think that Ray was taking offense at the words used, and not the review itself which was actually favorable.
What color is the Main Gate at Sing Sing?
avid
AH! Thank ya! I certainly take no offense to that - it's TRUE ... the rustbirds ARE the same color as Ossining's finest hotel's grand entrance. :)
Thanks for shedding the guard tower light on this for me! Pity so few of us remember the R21's ORIGINAL color. That blackish green actually looked pretty sharp.