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What are the different positions of the subway controllers and brakes? I know that there are a lot of train operators on this board who would know, but there is nothing regarding this on the website.
- Lyle Goldman
Brakes vary as its not a certain position. The controller has three positions, I'll describe it as a clock. The idle position is :15, the 1st position is :20, 2nd position is :25 and 3rd is :30 with it pointing to your gut. Brakes vary from no brake at :45, to full service which is around :30 or :25. Hope this helps.
To be more precise about what the positions are, the first point of power is "switching", and makes you accelerate very slowly, usually under 10mph, depending on the grade. You use this for pulling up closely to another train, adding, cutting, end of track, etc. You cannot operate too long in this mode, because it will overheat th resistors. In the new AC powered trains, it won't overheat the resistors, and I hear it will slowly accelerate up to full speed.
The 2nd point, series, I use to get to around 10-15 mph, as when going over a switch or other area of restricted speed, or passing a yellow signal in approach to a red. It will go past that, especially with a grade, but gives you more time to hold power before you have to begin coasting, and or braking.
The 3rd point is "parallel" or "multiple" (named after theelectic circuits it uses), and accelerates the fastest. You'll be up to 20 in a few seconds on level ground. Throwing the controller straight into multiple is called "wrappng it around", because of the circular motion you make. But the new trains use stick shift type controllers, (back and forth) so this term will not apply, and neither will the clock position analogy.
Brakes on SMEE equipment begins with "snow brake" (its a button on new style control panels), which applies a very weak brake just to keep snow off the wheel. Then, there's minimum brake, which is about 10-15 pounds of pressure. Then it just goes up (no distinct
"positions") until Full service, which is 70 pounds for most equipment. After that is emergency ("CHOW!"), but this is only used for an emergency sudden stop (someone on track, etc), and otherwise is only used for "agreeing with" brakes in emergency for all other reasons (release controller at terminal to test dead man feature, or accidentally; cord pulled, tripped by something on road, brake pipe rupture, etc)
Then there's "handle off", which allows you to remove your handle on SMEE's, and shuts down the controller on R-44/46.
>>>>>>>>Then it just goes up (no distinct "positions") until Full service, which is 70 pounds for most equipment
You mean 80 pounds.
110 on R44s?
Yup.
It varies. Fully charged is suppod to be 70, but in practice it often goes up to 80 or more. On the R-42 I had last night, the notch for full service was right after 70. I was one of those tight controllers, in which it was hrd to take a full service.
I also forgot full release and running release. I'm not sure what the difference really is, but we were told not to operate in full release, and that it is used in the shop, when the brakes are cut out anyway. I do know that when you release to full release, the pressure drops much faster. I do this when I'm in full service, and the doors close, to savetime, then I put it back into running release. On most controllers, it s a distinct hard notch right before full release.
Whats the difference between full release and running release?
"Fully" charged SMEE equipment is 80 lbs, but you can obviously operate with only 70 lbs max straight air. Anything 58 lbs and up should prevent the pilot valve from setting off when the controller is released. Not saying that you should operate a train with 58 lbs, but I'm saying that it can be done.
As far as manipulating the brake valve to full release then back to running release, the CTO put out a bulletin about 3 years ago advocating this. You'll also find some equipment with a plate/sticker just below the brake valve on the operating console telling you to go to full release first then immediately back to running release. This is to prevent operating with an unnecessary snow brake applied.
There really should be a section on train control on this website.
- Lyle Goldman
For now, there's pretty decent details on some of the older cars available for examination at the "JoeKerner" ...
Propulsion overview: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/carpow.htm
Braking overview: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/brakes.htm
And just for added amusement:
Lighting control: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/lights.htm
So there are four positions on the controller: idle, switching, series, and parallel? What happens when the controller is at idle (or any other slow position) while the train is moving with no brakes applied? Also, what is the amount of brake normally applied when stopping a train?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>>>>>What happens when the controller is at idle (or any other slow position) while the train is moving with no brakes applied?
The train coasts. It acts the same as it would in your auto.
>>>>>>>Also, what is the amount of brake normally applied when stopping a train?
Depends on how early/late in the station you begin your braking sequence, if the station is on a down/upgrade, etc.
On a level station and beginning the brake sequence at the mid-way point (C/R's board) of the station at 30 mph, no more than 30 lbs. would be needed.
Good terminology. You've got the controller part right, and you're very close with the brake valve.
Full service on the brake valve would be about :33 and emergency would be about :27. Handle off would be :20.
I owe it all to the training facility tour I took! It refreshed my memory! :-)
I am a newbie to this board, and only an amateur subway buff...but, I thought I would throw out some questions/gripes/nice things (probably too many) that have puzzled me as I have communted over the years (sorry if they've been beaten into the ground before):
- F service to Brooklyn is a pain as is, so why stop the new V at 2nd? It is standing room only too often all the way out to Park Slope at least. Is there any infrastructure reason why this V can't terminate at 7th Ave Brooklyn or further down? I am also a frequent G rider (it is my closest line -Clinton/Washington- couldn't it go a few stops further to end, at least to make the 4th ave transfer?
- Why doesn't the C train just become the train out to Lefferts instead of having a single A train have 3 possible Queens terminals? If you are in a hurry to get to JFK, having the first A go by to Lefferts is a drag. (and why is the C a car short?)
- Not to bitch, but the downtown 6 service has been really spotty lately (even before 9-11). Lots of bunched up trains, causing at least one (often multiple) run-bys at Astor (near my job). Watching as 2 or 3 speed past after you have already been waiting for a seeming eternity is infuriating.
- Is there any hope of keeping the Q train local in Manhattan? I often will go from 8th ave to Dekalb, and this new arrangement is great (otherwise, I switch to the 6 at Canal). I realize this is seflfish (and the locals seems to have tought time getting back onto the Manhattan Bridge track from the local after Prince in evening rush without getting stacked up), but just based on look around each morning that the Q hits 8th, I am not the only one benefitting. Having the W bypass Dekalb means it does me no good (why not have the Q express do that, in the true meaning of the word express?)
-Is there ever going to be an uptown transfer from the 6th ave line to the uptown 6 at Bleecker? At Jat/Borough hall, the F traffic seems to jump to the A to switch so they can get on the Lex line at Fulton. Am I nuts to think that this is die in part ot the lack of an uptown transfer at Bleecker? is it possible to run the 6 down to Bowling Green instead of the 5 so that the annoying 6-4/5-A/C transfer could be eliminated? the 6 traffic at B Bridge almost always seems to be waiting to catch the 4/5 to make that one extra stop (and frankly, I think all the 5's should go to Brooklyn...they hit Bowling Green empty, and the 4's are packed to the gills)
- Instead of bringing back the Z exactly as it was, is the interchange between the L and JMZ at E New York functional that would allow the Z to start in Canarsie, jump to the J/M line, and run express from there? (Maybe even hit the connection to the 6th ave line? Is that track still in place)
-the new Q service out of Dekalb should give a great view of the old artwork on the abandoned Myrtle Ave inbound platform, but I can't see it well. Is it still there in good shape?
- Last thing. There is a great view of the old Nassau Loop track ramp up to the Manhattan Bridge to be had out the back of brooklyn bound Q express. As the Canal track shifts over the old loop ROW, you get a great look down the tunnel (the outbound tunnel is still lit as a part of the entire outbound lighting). If I knew how to take pictures well, I'd send it along.
The reason most of the routes cited don't go to the places cited is there aren't enough cars available to run service that far. In addition, there's limited need for much of what was proposed (standees are to be expected during rush hour on the subway -- only on commuter rail and express buses is that considered something the operating agency is to avoid). As for the "B/J" tracks between the Williamsburg Bridge and the Sixth Avenue Line, they're available, but once again, it's been decided that there's limited need for such a routing. Should a need be identified, and should cars be available to run it, it can run.
The artwork on the abandoned Myrtle Avenue platform (Masstransiscope), last I saw of it (got to be at least ten years now), had been vandalized heavily. During the time it was lit, attempts were made to keep it clean, but by the end it was just overrun with graffiti.
Construction of a transfer facility between the Broadway-Lafayette and (uptown) Bleecker Street stations is in the 2004 capital budget.
David
standees are to be expected during rush hour on the subway
Is there an NYCT "standard" for the number of standees? Is such a "standard" based on the amount of floor space available. How does this standard compare to NYCT's published "service" load and "crush" load standards?
Yes, there are guidelines as to loading (seated + standing). I did not derive them, nor do I know how they were derived (nor do I have them handy), but I know they are somewhat less than "crush" loading. To the best of my recollection, they are equal or at least close to the "service" loading Mr. Bauman cited.
Is the purpose of this question to refute my contention that standees are to be expected on the subway during rush hours? Does Mr. Bauman, or anyone else for that matter, know of a subway system anywhere in the world that does not schedule for standees during rush hours?
David
Yes, there are guidelines as to loading (seated + standing). I did not derive them, nor do I know how they were derived (nor do I
have them handy), but I know they are somewhat less than "crush" loading. To the best of my recollection, they are equal or at
least close to the "service" loading Mr. Bauman cited.
I can help you with the derivation for the TA's definitions of service and crush loads. The service level is determined by dividing the area within a car dedicated to passengers by 4 sq ft. The crush load is determined by taking the floor space dedicated to standees and dividing by 3 sq ft and adding the number of seated passengers.
Is the purpose of this question to refute my contention that standees are to be expected on the subway during rush hours?
Not at all. I just wanted to know, if the TA had any internal threshold for measuring adequacy of service with regard to crowding.
Story in today's Times.
Has anyone purchased the Microsoft Train Simulator program? Is it any good? How much memory does it eat up?
Thanks.
Hi,
The MS Train sim is pretty good. I like driving the Toyko subways because the trains go super fast and there are a lot of stops.
However my work has picked up and I have not had any time to play lately. If you are interested I can sell you my copy for $15 plus $4 shipping.
Let me know if you are interested.
Thanks,
Allen
Hey, I'll take you up on that.
I have Train Sim. Its great. I really enjoy the Northeast corridor stuff. Overall, it has worked good. I sometimes get that "Blue Screen Thing", but I think this is my computer. I don't know if there is a "Version 2" yet with more, or better trains. Its still great the way it is.
I just purchased the software and have run the NEC tutorial run. Lots of fun!
To be honest this program uses more hard drive space than memory on any computer. Trust me you'll love it, especially if you love trains.
When I logged onto Subtalk this morning, guess what greeted me on the front end? Why an N Sea Beach R-68 as bright and shiny as all outdoors. For a Monday after a nice weekend, there is always that feeling of "oh, crap, back to the old grind." Seeing my Sea Beach demonstrated before my eyes was sight to behold. Ok Bob, J, and Q, have at it and show me your envy. The Sea Beach online today, not those other lines.
Gee, where do we start !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Fred, I still think that this is a much better picture ;-)
A nice picture, too. Could it be Ditmas Ave? Let me know. At least you have a pulse. I got no other reactions except from Selkirk, who asked me where he could start in going after me. I'm sure he will think of something.
Next stop on the Sea Beach is New Utrecht Avenue.
Yeah, that is Ditmas Av! How'd you figure it out? (I did by looking at the dwarf signal in the picture)
Here's a picture that you should REALLY like:
!?!? I can't seem to embed any more photos like that nice triplex! How did you do it?
there are a bunch more here
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-d/
I meant I couldnt copy or embed any photos anymore in my posts since I rebuilt my H/D, and I was wondering how J-trainloco did it.
I just used the "img src=" HTML tag.
J: I will never have to look up that picture again. I have book-marked it. Thanks again pal.
I know Fred has seen that photo. He's probably wearing a silly grin right about now!
Here's my vote:
I like this better
>
Well, you got it right with the "A" train, but it should look more like this:
What station is that in, and when was that picture taken? I looked for it on the website, but all it says is that Trevor Logan took the picture. Maybe Trevor can identify it for us.
- Lyle Goldman
I took that photo at what is now the ex-Chambers Street-WTC Station back in like 1994. That was one of my very first subway photos.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Everybody has their own preference. I remember the R-10s on the A very well and still associate them with that line. I look at the R-44s now the way I used to look at the BMT standards when they were still around.
I would call it a beaming grin although when my Sea Beach is mentioned I can get a little silly and juvenile. Such conduct for a soon-to-be- 61 year old guy. I like your photo too, and will bookmark it in deference to you. What stop is that? Could it be Boyd?
Rockaway Blvd. That photo is the backgound on my computer screen. It's a microcosm of the IND - the two car classes I love the most, and the R-10s wearing my all-time favorite paint scheme.
Enjoy looking at them. I love looking at that Black and White Triplex #4 Sea Beach taken on 8th Street in I still don;t know when.
However, I use the R-11 as my desktop because, as I mentioned earlier, it was taken on January 24, 1970, my wife's birthday, and the year we were married. It has more sentimental value to this incurable romantic.
Plus the front route sign on that R-11 says - you guessed it - 4/Sea Beach.
That, too, Stevereno
Don't mention it.:-)
J: You've made a pal for life with that picture. It is a Triplex Sea Beach at 8th Avenue when it was the #4 train. And BTW I have been trying without success to find out when that picture was taken. I even wrote to Joe Testagrose, ace subway photographer, and he was at a loss to tell when it was snapped. It had to be no earlier in 1957 when the terminal was changed from 42nd Street to 57th Street, and no later than 1962 when the Triplex was taken off the Sea Beach Line. However, to zero in on a date I have no clue. Yet, believe it or not, I really want to know. One more thing. I have used this picture before as my desktop, but currently use an R-11, taken January 24th, 1970, my wife's birthday and the year we were married. And yes, for some strange reason that train has a #4 instead of the letter "N".
Fred must be crying a #4Triplex on the Sea Beach
Let me clue you in. J Trainloco send me a picture of his F, Steve sent me a picture of his A, and J also sent me a picture of a Triplex #4 Sea Beach from around 1957. You see, I have a lot of buddies now.
>>And yes, for some strange reason that train has a #4 instead of the letter "N".<<
R-11's are strange cars. They were built when the IND and BMT were seperate entities. Further, it was loaned to the BMT and put on the #1 Brighton Express. However, Even after the unification, I've never seen anything but numbers on the rollsigns, even though the cars are IND cars. After they became R-34's, (and after the "B" was the West End train) I still have pictures of that train displaying BMT numbers.
Hence, it would have been strange if it had displayed N instead of 4.
I find it particularly strange that the destination slot on that R-11 is blank. The R-11s had "57th St. Manhattan via Bridge" on their bulkhead curtains.
I remember for years in the mid 50s the R-11 sitting on the spare track just south of Prospect Park with the #7-Franklin on it. It seemed just to sit there(3 cars only) and the shuttle used 3 Car AB Units
IND cars loaned to the BMT's Brighton Express. OK, but how did they got onto the Sea Beach. Were they loaned out to them, too? I also wonder for how long this went on because the Sea Beach was supposed to stop using the #4 sign and go with the letter "N" as early as 1963.
Simple.
The BMT was only testing the cars for a short period of time. Afterward they were to be returned to the IND.
However, the Merger occured between the 3 entities. After that, it was as if the cars became allergic to IND rails. One was reworked to run with the R-16 fleet (because an R-16 was destroyed). The other 9 saw sporadic service, mostly on the Franklin shuttle.
But strangely, they never had their signs changed. When in shuttle service, the displayed a "7 Franklin" sign. I've never seen any pictures of them on service on the B or D lines, even when they were extended into Brooklyn. Most likely they ran on the N or Q lines when they were in service, as they never had their old signs replaced (Even as R-34's. Go figure)
The R-11s saw service on the B line briefly in the fall of 1968. There are photos of those cars on the West End sporting "3-West End" signs.
IIRC when they were rebuilt under the R-34 contract, the R-11s could and did m. u. with all other SMEE cars. Typically they would couple one R-11 with a pair of R-32s for Franklin Ave. shuttle service.
One story I heard was that they tried not to run the R-11s in solid trains because their brakes were suspect.
>>The R-11s saw service on the B line briefly in the fall of 1968. There are photos of those cars on the West End sporting "3-West End" signs.<<
I have pictures of such trains, but James Clifford Greller says that the trains were running on the West End when it was re-routed up Broadway; and the north destination sign says: 57th/7th av. Hence, it really was a #3 train, and not a "B" train.
It's all coming up roses - er, Sea Beach.
In today's New York Times, an article entitled Rough Rider on the Redbird Express profiles a president of a trading company who has to commute with the #7 train instead of his car. The person states:
Mr. Levitt is a little different. He grew up on the subway. His father was a subway token clerk. As a kid, he sometimes sat on his father's lap in the booth, pushing dimes through the slot, and he remembers the thrill of the Sea Beach express to Coney Island. "I used to know all the lines," he said, smiling proudly.
So there you go, Fred ... get a hold of this guy, buy a few thousand shares of Amtrak and compare Sea Beach notes :)
--Mark
This article crystallizes better than most the exact gap between
the well heeled who choose to drive and the rest of us. These are of
course the "class" which the carpeted cars of DC Metro and BART were
designed to lure. While I am pleased he notes the improvement in the
graffiti wars, I doubt he will stay on mass transit when car usage is
less restricted. I certainly symphathize with the desire to sit, but
the distaste for the subway home from Yankee Stadium is a circular
problem. As long as the moneyed classes opt out they will also opt out
of the financing of public transit forever condemning it to exactly the
grunge they abhor.
I was at Coney island yard today a went looking for them, They were no ware in the yard. Dose any one know if they were transfered back to ENY for final prep for the L line.
Robert
The 143's are being used for schooling T/O's and C/R's and are travelling all over now. Friday, they were on the J/M lines.
That makes sence.
Robert
When will the next set of MU's be delivered?
When the first one passes the 30 test run. After that it should be about a mouth or so after that.
Robert
Haven't they been on the road more than 30 days? Or is that in actual service 30 days?
Acceptance testing consists of several parts (the R-142 and R-142A tests had 72 parts), the last of which requires the pilot train to remain in passenger service for 30 consecutive days (16 or so hours a day, with the rest of the time devoted to collecting and analyzing data collected while the train is in service). The testing, prior to the in-service test, takes approximately five months. As for the 30-day test, the train passes...when it passes.
There are criteria for determining whether the 30-day clock has to be reset. I don't have them available, but perhaps others on this board do and can enlighten us.
The pilot train of R-143 cars has not yet entered passenger service, but since it's been here for 5 months or so, expect it to happen fairly soon.
David
Well, I understand the criteria to reset the 'clock' on the cars is pretty stiff; reportedly a malfunctioning sign was supposed to do it on the R-142 tests.
Thank you for the information. I believe it has been at least 5 months as of now, possibly longer.
April 30th was the first delivery if I remember correctly. So...
September 20th?
Correct, over 5 months now.
They passed me on the WillyB going toward Marcy Ave. around 2 PM on Friday 9/28/01.
Do you know if the windows are supposed to be Scratchitti proof on these trains?
No windows are scratchiti "proof." The windows have a sacrificial layer of clear plastic that can be relatively easily (and inexpensively, compared to a new window) removed and replaced.
David
I spotted a four car set of R143s in test service on the Far Rockaway line Tuesday evening (10/2). It made two round trips between 10:45pm and 11:30pm. The car numbers were 8105 thru 8108.
Keith -- is that you?
Are you back or just 'lurking'?
BMTman
Yea, I'm back for awhile this time.
What do you meen "TEST SERVICE", were they carring people on the Rock park Shuttle.
Robert
No, it was not in revenue service and also I spotted them on the Far Rockaway branch, not the Rockaway Park branch. The R143s made two test runs on the Far Rockaway on Wednesday night as well. Approximately the same times as Tuesday night.
Curious as to the whereabouts of R62a car no. 2449..
Two trains had to be pulled out of the water at Chambers and Franklin streets after the attack and are being "dried out" in 207 yard. so 2449 my be one of them.
Would the two of you be so kind as to send me an e-mail with your current e-mail addresses? I wish to send you something.
E-mail me at Q44VP@aol.com
Thanks.
Anybody know the readings on the above sign sets? (As for the R68, the old version. I already know the most recent version.)
Pssst... favor needed, check board on your site. Hit me back... thanks. The R68 and R68As had different rolls. I can remember whatever was once used in service or just set really weird... R68 roll is easier... full stop name over borough. R68A was super abridged/condensed.
The R-68/68A destination signs are now unified:
Ex: Midtown
57 St/ 7 Av
Coney Island
The R-62/62A signs have a little bit of a different variation, but the R-62A and the R-68's old signs were the same.
Ex: 57 St 7 Av
Manhattan
Coney Island
Brooklyn
I like the old signs better, now if they put the same signs in the R-68A units keeping the old signs intact in the R-68's, that would have saved the TA lots of money.
I'm not looking for the new version of the R68 rollsigns. I'm looking for the older version, like the one on the signs in the picture below.
It's a 200K kmage. Please be patient.
I forgot about it, but I realized that you might still find the old roll signs on the Franklin Av. Shuttle R-68's. I know when I was in Brooklyn a couple of weeks ago while riding the (Q) that those cars (#2916-2924) still have them. They are still on the R-62A's and R-62's.
I saw the (3) trains running today. Looks like 14th Street is not on the ST signs. I even saw one car that had an upside-down (13) sign on it!
The new signs make no sense. Why they put neighborhood and/or boro on top of the station completely mystifies me. I guess the folks who designed those signs drive Taurus Fords instead of Ford Tauruses.
> keeping the old signs intact in the R-68's, that would have saved the TA lots of money.
I think they had to change the signs because the old ones didn't have 34th Street on them.
- Lyle Goldman
When the Manhattan Bridge was closed to all trains back in 1995, the D ended at 34th St./6th Av. then, so didn't the old signs have 34th St. on it, or was the bottom sign left blank?
They displayed "South Terminal" during 1995.
When the Manhattan Bridge closed back in 1995, there were no R68As. As for the R68s, there was only 1 test train in service at that time. As a result of the bridge closing, they continued to operate this train on the southern division "D" only. When the rest of the R68 order arrived, they NEVER served the Concourse "D" until the day before the opening of the Manhattan Bridge in December, 1988. Therefore they did not have 34th Street on the southern rollsign.
The R68As didn't come on the scene until the Fall of 1988 and went straight to the Concourse "D". They had "34 Street/6 Avenue" for the southern terminal rollsign.
Maybe this questioned has been answered before, but if it has, please bear with me. Does anyone know why the TA removed all the end signs on the R68\R68As on the cars not used for either conductor or motorman operation?
Nah, all R68 and R68As were delivered by 1995.
I guess Far Rockaway A Train meant 1985.
My mistake. I meant 1985 NOT 1995.
Ok, this is a big idea. If we switch the 2 and 5 terminals we can gain alot. Like this
5- 241 Street to Bowling Green/ Flatbush Avenue (Bronx Thru Express to Manhattan 6 a.m. to 12 p.m. / Bronx Thru Express to 241 Street 12:01 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.)
2- Dyre Avenue to Flatbush Avenue (Local In the Bronx)
This allows for the 180 Street Connection to remain clear allowing for faster times b/t the interlocking. People who live at 241 Stret get the South Bronx Express Service constantly.
Night Service
2- Same As Above, except local in all boroughs
5- 180 Street to 241 Street
This also allows for less congestion at 180 Street by having the shuttle not interfere with 2 service at 180 Street. 6 Opto or 6 10-car trains can run on the shuttle.
So what do people think? I think this brings alot of advantages.
Yes! I like you plan. At first I thought maybe make the 2 the Bronx Thru Express and run all 5 service local in the Bronx. But this is better, because you don't have the shuttle interfering with the 2. For the longest time, the 5 got turned into a shuttle for a whole host of GO's. And all too often, either the 2 or 5 gets held at the junction causing delays.
> maybe make the 2 the Bronx Thru Express and run all 5 service local in the Bronx.
Weren't they recently planning on doing just that? What ever happened with that?
- Lyle Goldman
It was postponed (permanently?) after the politicians in the areas the Dyre Avenue Line serves complained about it.
David
It was postponed (permanently?) after the politicians in the areas the Dyre Avenue Line serves complained about it.
That was not the TA's proposal. The terminals would have remained the same. The #2's from E 241st would have joined the #5's from E 238th as expresses. The #5's from Dyre would have become the only locals.
Mr. Bauman is correct. I misread the poster's proposal.
David
Actually, that is the proposal to which I was referring. It was R142#2's idea, to run the #2 train express and the #5 train local.
- Lyle Goldman
Nice idea but 180th Street Yard (new R142 receiver) is undergoing renovation again with personell transfer and Redbirds are being both cut and receiving service maintainance.
i thought they have some #2s running express in the bronx.i was at 238 st once and skipped to gunhill to 180st.not on the weekend during rush hour
and anyway they should run the the 2 express from 241 to 180st. then run local from 180 to 149st 3rd ave
r142man
2 all the way
until next time
Tha doesn't save any time, and confuses passangers. Express service north of E180th St. makes no sense with 50% of all service south of E180th going to Dyre.
This isn't a radical idea. I've proposed it ever since I first discovered Subtalk, for the same reasons you state. In fact, prior to 1962 the service existed in that way. I don't know why it was changed.
the pan shot i took at main street flushing.1999 35mm pan..........thanks webmaster dave pirmann!!
that's strange I have a LRV with the World Trade Center behind it.
The front page has a script that changes the image every time you load www.nycsubway.org. That's why one person may see one thing, and other people see other things.
The one Salaam Allah was referring to is this one
while the LRV & WTC banner is this one.
how do U do that?? load those 2 pics inside the message box & can that be done with a I Mac ??? ........lol !!1
It's an HTML tag I use called img. It can be used with any computer.
that is so true !!
the pic rotates i saw it about 15 min. ago ...
The picture changes. I have a diesel pulling the "Triplex" on the fan trip.
I wonder how many different pictures Dave has loaded into that option.
Currently there are 67 photos in the random pool. Each time someone pulls up the page (and it's not cached) there's a different random picture.
Thank you, I had no idea that there were that many available.
That's one of my favorite banner pictures. Thank you Salaam- great picture-taking!
This is one of my favorites
Well, so much for 'keeping the peace'...
I also like this one
I was in NYC for about 24 hours this weekend, but not at Shoreline. My purpose of traveling was to see Cal Ripken's final game ever but turned out to be his final road game and final game at Yankee Stadium. I am not sure if they need to replay the game if I can come, but thats another matter.
To start, I got on Acela Express 2208 at BWI on Saturday afternoon. This was the 2027-2033 Trainset (#13). I made my way to the Quiet Car at the front. Last time I had 2208, I got the same conductor on 2153 on my return to DC. He still had 2208 on Saturday and while he keyed open the door where I was waiting at BWI, he only recognized me when he came to collect my ticket. Once he closed up at Baltimore, he came to me and took me to the lead power car, 2027. He introduced me to the engineer, and I sat down at the fireman's controls. This allowed me to chat with the engineer while we cruised along from Baltimore to Wilmington. I was able to watch the signals, speedometer, and other displays, and see the railfan view of the Northeast Corridor. Its just like MS Train Simulator except with far more detail. I was able to see the yard at Perryville that I didn't even know existed, the (poorly marked) Newark and Churchman's Crossing Stations, and many other things. The view from the front is very different from that on the side. We passed one train being pulled by a Genesis Locomotive and I couldn't figure out which train this was from my schedule. This was near Aberdeen, I think. If anyone knows, please respond (Remember to refer to the July schedule!).
At Wilmington, I had to return to Business Class and become a passenger again. The rest of the trip was uneventful. This was the first time I've been on Amtrak after dark (for part of the trip) and I prefer traveling by day. This also meant I couldn't see anything of Lower Manhattan. Is Metropark Station in a curve? The train was tilted when we were there. We arrived at New York-Penn at about 7:55, about 24 hours before I would descend to the platform for the return trip.
I went to the subway and took the E train (R46 5858, last car) to Lexington (I saw 5800 on this trip, 4th car). While waiting for this, I saw one R32 C train. At 51st, I missed an R142A 6 train. Almost directly behind it was a desiel and a few flatbeds. The next train was led by R142A 7275. It was while this train was entering and I was considering setting up for a picture when someone told me that what I was doing was illegal and alerted an NYPD officer of my actions. The NYPD told the man I was not breaking the law. The man tried to voice his opinions again on the train and said my taking photos could help the terrorist movement. I am quite happy NYPD was present.
The next morning, I took R62 1371 to Yankee Stadium. The ride was uneventful but the express from 86th to 125th is quite slow in my opinion. Also, why are there timers on the upgrades along that track? I understand it on Hammel's Wye but not there. Once at 161st, the crowds were back to the center of the train. People only wanted to use the first stair, not the 2nd. This situation was worsened when another train came in from Manhattan. Also, when was the station renovated?
The game itself was fun. I arrived in time for the ceremonies and stayed through the top of the 13th inning. By that time, about 5,000 people were left, most of which were Oriole fans. I left the stadium itself at the end of the 13th and a mass exodus seemed to occur when I was on the el platform at what must have been the middle of the 14th inning. I got R33 9255 for the return to Manhattan. I was surprised they were running R33s on a Sunday afternoon. This trip was much faster. At 86th, an R142A came in. I took it to 77th. The car was 7373 (3rd car).
I took a taxi to Penn Station (time constraint). Once there, I did my usual rounds to the NJT schedule rack and found no Bergen/Main Line Schedules. Why are there never any? I knew my train, Acela 2259, was sold out. There was no Quiet Car. I was in the first car behind First Class with only a half window (I like full). At Metropark, a young woman sat down next to me at the seat started moving. I figured out what was wrong but an attendant who came along was actually able to get the seat to lock in place. The rest of the ride was pretty uneventful. The lights were dimmed after leaving Philly. This was my first all night Amtrak trip and I didn't like the lack of a view. My one question is at Baltimore, a train pulled in with 2 baggage cars, 2 or 3 Amfleet cars (RS paint), and a sleeper. Is this the Twilight Shoreliner? It was in the right place schedule wise but is is that short every night?
Feedback welcome...
P.S. I may have been on TV during the 12th inning (at least here in DC) but I can't confirm this...
Yes, Metropark is on the curve.
No Bergen/Main line schedules? NJT puts out small amount of them at Penn because virtually no one going on Bergen line uses Penn Station. Plus NJT is delivering new schedules very late.
On 09/30 most of NJT changed schedules and Coast Line wasn't available until 9/26, and Morris&Essex until 9/27.
But no schedules in two times I travel? Even though there were very few this time, everything else was in abundance.
<Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Oct 1 17:21:31 2001
I was in NYC for about 24 hours this weekend, but not at Shoreline. My purpose of traveling was to see Cal Ripken's final game ever but turned out to be his final road game and final game at Yankee Stadium. I am not sure if they need to replay the game if I can come, but thats another matter.
To start, I got on Acela Express 2208 at BWI on Saturday afternoon. This was the 2027-2033 Trainset (#13). I made my way to the Quiet Car at the front. Last time I had 2208, I got the same conductor on 2153 on my return to DC. He still had 2208 on Saturday and while he keyed open the door where I was waiting at BWI, he only recognized me when he came to collect my ticket. Once he closed up at Baltimore, he came to me and took me to the lead power car, 2027. He introduced me to the engineer, and I sat down at the fireman's controls. This allowed me to chat with the engineer while we cruised along from Baltimore to Wilmington. I was able to watch the signals, speedometer, and other displays, and see the railfan view of the Northeast Corridor. Its just like MS Train Simulator except with far more detail. I was able to see the yard at Perryville that I didn't even know existed, the (poorly marked) Newark and Churchman's Crossing Stations, and many other things. The view from the front is very different from that on the side. We passed one train being pulled by a Genesis Locomotive and I couldn't figure out which train this was from my schedule. This was near Aberdeen, I think. If anyone knows, please respond (Remember to refer to the July schedule!).>>
That was likely #19--The Crescent. It gets a power chnge at 30th Street.
<>
Metropark is on a slight eastward curve. Elizabeth used to be on a SHARP curve in the days before it was rebuilt with high platforms, and largely on tangent track, ca. 1986.
<>
Sounds like some paranoid yutz taking matters into his own hands. There have been many photogs out on the NY system since D-Day and no problem. Nothing more than a few off-the-cuff remarks from the nearest Patrolman and some sly smiles from T/O's that is! As long as you are in a public area; no tripods or flashes (you didn't flash in the T/O's face I hope)--ENJOY!
<>
They were still working on the mezzanine last fall, during the Subway Series. Far as I know the IND level is still under reconstruction.
<I took a taxi to Penn Station (time constraint). Once there, I did my usual rounds to the NJT schedule rack and found no Bergen/Main Line Schedules. Why are there never any? I knew my train, Acela 2259, was sold out. There was no Quiet Car. I was in the first car behind First Class with only a half window (I like full). At Metropark, a young woman sat down next to me at the seat started moving. I figured out what was wrong but an attendant who came along was actually able to get the seat to lock in place. The rest of the ride was pretty uneventful. The lights were dimmed after leaving Philly. This was my first all night Amtrak trip and I didn't like the lack of a view. My one question is at Baltimore, a train pulled in with 2 baggage cars, 2 or 3 Amfleet cars (RS paint), and a sleeper. Is this the Twilight Shoreliner? It was in the right place schedule wise but is is that short every night?>>
Its been shorter lately but that could be a change for the new schedule. You're lucky it's still around at all.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I don't use flash. I use 800 speed film so the flash worsens the pictures.
As for the Twilight Shoreliner, its schedule was changed this time on train 67 (66 is still the same). I think it would gain popularity if they reinstated the option to borad from 9 PM until 2 AM in NYC and then hook up the car(s) to the train from Boston. I could use that every so often.
Also, did Newark Airport stop open yesterday?
yes, IMHO the current version is aweful. Item, arrival in DC is too early for Metro on weekends ('course that's because Metro is lame, still) But yes a real set out/pickup sleeper to/from NY would be useful, unfortunately the train only has one sleeper--so it runs all the way--dumb!! The other thing missing from pre-Amtrak times is the very late night mostly sleepers from the south train. I remember often walking along asking porters until one would say "yes I have a roomette" and then happily sacking out with a wake up call for Newark.
Geez I wish I could fanagle a cab ride on AE. Ya lucky bum! BTW, I'm going to be in DC this weekend, but it's the Mrs.'s birthday, so I don't know how much Metro-fanning I'm going to get to do. Also, staying in Arlington & have no car so must depend on family for transport to/from Dunn Loring. However, I hope to ride some of the Green Line portions which are new since I lived there in '93-'94.
Why didn t you take the D from the stadium and transfer for a A at either 59th or 125th, and save the cab fare
there are now 10/1/01 maps on the MTA alert website:
-subway
-bus
-lower Manhattan subway
-lower manhattan bus
If I see any new hard copy maps(color, black and white or full size I will post.)
First off i took LIRR to NYP from Rosedale with a Change at Jamaica. First off the Engine 9623 a M1-A had a MA switch problem the Engineer said. Meaning the Motor died resulting in a dark railroad car full of crying children scared of dark. Inspectors reset Fuse from Ground level. But i changed to a NY bound express train so i dunno what happened to 9623. Anyways i get on the NYP express, it goes on the express track(something i have never been on b4 on LIRR main to NY) i saw a Approach limited on a position light. I never saw that before! then the Train enters penn thru line 2! that was great. I always end up on a NY bound train that winds up entering thru line 4. Anyways best of all i see the Acela express with locomotive 2027! I have never seen the Acela myself, only pictures From Transitalk.com and other websites. That thing looks like a Airplane without wings! makes me wish i worked for Amtrak! Anyways i head for school. After school A Train of R44s says A 8AV/Fulton LCL. C train service delayed. Finally a C was going express? Fulton subway havin problems. Anyways then i get on the J of R40M. Motorman must have been runnin late. Bumpy ride and he hit the switch north of jamaica center too hard. ARGGGGGHHHH. that is all
everyone have a nice day!
Does anyone know if R142's or a similar type train is coming to the #4 line? because I saw a whole bunch of those trains in the Grand Concourse/Bedford Park trainyard today. Usually, the yard is filled with R62 and R36 4's and R68 B's and D's. Today, there weren't many R62's or R36's there if any.
According to postings here, The #4 is supposed to have a small # of R-142A's from the #6. But I doubt that they will get to the #4 before the #6 has them.
The #4 line is supposed to get the r142a option order.
now its 4 gets r142a option order of 120 cars to make up for redbirds
The 30 cars you see in CONCOURSE YARD are there simply to be stored until they are needed for pre-acceptance testing.
Speaking of R142s, can someone explain the situation with the R142s in the 207th St Yard??? I think they are receiving modifications...can someone clarify for me???
Cleanairbus
you can e-mail the answer to me if ya want...carlwal@hotmail.com
For permanent R142s on the #4 you'll have to wait awhile, but they did run briefly there last year during the subway world series. -Nick
Some of you may know my NYC Subway T-shirts from the NY Trainsit
Museum. (Hope so!) If you're interested, come take a look at
my web site at
nycsubwayline.com
I've just expanded the site to include Juniors, and my famous
Yankee and Shea Stadium stop shirts.
Hope you like it!
Ah, now I know where the NYCT crew got them from. (As seen during the Smithsonian Folklife Fest.)
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
I really do enjoy this line of clothing (got my (4) T-Shirt on now in fact!) - so many thanks to you for bringing them to the market.
Questions (suggestions, petitions) though:
Any chance in offering alternative legends with the Thorofare/Service instead of Boroughs?!? i.e. (4) LEXINGTON AV EXPRESS instead of BROOKLYN TO BRONX?!?
Any Diamond Logos possible?!?
How about a Subway Line Throwbacks line, with icons of the past, (QB), (QJ), (GG), Train to the Plane Logo, etc, or perhaps one Fantasy shirt for the dreamers (T) SECOND AV LOCAL...?!?
My little input aside, it bears repeating that I LOVE the lineup!!! Great to see the (W) just added too!
>>How about a Subway Line Throwbacks line, with icons of the past, (QB), (QJ), (GG), Train to the Plane Logo, etc, or perhaps one Fantasy shirt for the dreamers (T) SECOND AV LOCAL...?!?<<
Well, those fantasy shirts seem a bit out there, but it would be cool to see the throwbacks you mention, maybe done like the 'cooperstown collection' yankees jerseys (are all the coop. collection jersey's like that?). Those jeresys have the sleeves a different (matching) color than the rest of the jersey. You could make a grey shirt with a green QB circle and green sleeves (I'm getting too far into this...)
So glad you like the line (double entendre intended)
I am still trying to get all of the trains done. I carry each one
in 8 sizes, so it takes alot of time, money and warehouse space
to do it! I hope to get through them all eventually, then I can
move on.
I have got two new great ones (different concept) coming out in
about a month. Stay tuned.
i love the shirts, i am in atlanta now and would easily buy 1 of each...
is there any chance for some big sizes to be made available? 3x or so?
thanks!
Wow, those big sizes are so expensive to make, I can't afford to stock
them. The shirt manufacturers charge an extra 3 - 4 dollars per shirt, and want you to buy a case at a time. It becomes a production
and economic nightmare for a small company like mine. Just can't
handle it yet! Maybe when my company is full grown! I'm sorry about
that!
How about 2X??? and do you take credit cards
Yes, we make 2X, and take credit cards, check out the site for details!
I will wait for a XX Q or #1 Brighton Beach Exp
do they have a #7 train shirt ?? xxx large ( grande size ) ??
Oh, I do! Next paycheck I think I'll buy myself an "L".
Will you be expanding your line to include such goodies as the "M", the "G", or the "Q"?
wayne
Dear Wayne,
I promise to get to all of them eventually!
On the 26 route round shirt, will you be making the updated subway routes as of July 22 like the (Q),,(W),and (V)? I do have 3 of the old shirts, 1 black, 1 white and 1 grey.
Dear Neil,
Thanks for your support of my company!
I have the W in stock now. Check out the web site. The others will
be coming along eventually, just like the trains!
If and when you get them, could you please email me? Thanks.
Dear Neil,
I just reread your question, and I had mis-understood it before.
That design is called Multi-Circle. I just barely fit 26 route
indicators on there, and if you notice, the S train is still black -
the old color. I think I may have to leave that as is - a snapshot
of how the trains were in 1996. That shirt is my most difficult
to produce, and I don't want to mess with it.
Perhaps I'll find another way to get all of them on a shirt though.
Stay tuned!
Did you know that in the movie "Bring it On", some guy is wearing one of your shirts?
Yeah, Rob, isn't that cool? Jesse Bradford's mother and I are friends,
and when he was headed out to make the movie, I said, "I want to
get Jesse some of my products!" He took them right to wardrobe,
and they put them in the movie.
Check out my web site at nycsubwayline.com for other appearances -
including President Clinton - wearing the shirts!
I like it!! I like it!!
You are aware of all the ripoffs of your merchandise that is on sale in stores all over lower Broadway between 14th St and Canal St. They look almost like yours but they lack the MTA licensing logo.
I fell into that trap:-\
Don't shop at Yellow Rat Bastard for the true NYC Subway Line shirt, it was only till I walked out that it only said NYC slanted on the back...:-\
And be careful of Canal Jean. They have both.
I generally buy from the TM directly as I can get my 10% discount for being a member.
I noticed the TM stores had some shirts with double routes on them - i.e. 4/5 Bronx to Brooklyn, and then beneath them, an "ad" on rules of the subway. Are those available off the ncysubwayline.com web site? I didn't see them listed in the pictures.
--Mark
Yeah, I have been working on Canal Jeans to go totally legit.
Besides, mine are both more accurate and more attractive!
The only one I bought that you don't have is the "J" train shirt. They also have baseball hats with some of the lines as well...
Dear Third Rail,
Yeah, I know. It makes me sick. I try so hard to make this little
company a success and I have these leeches!
Yes, I am painfully aware of the counterfeits, and the MTA is about
to step in on this.
I was reading this article about how the MTA repaired the tunnel after the crash.Because of some problems the rescue workers had to use a hydrolic pump which was borrowed from Metro North.Today does the NTA have a hydrolic pump of their own god forbid another Union Square happens?And if thy don't does Metro north still have a hydrolic pump?Also is there a connection between the subway,LIRR or/and MNR?Finnaly(I know)Were the damaged/destroyed cars renumbered for another R62,R142 or R143?
>>Also is there a connection between the subway,LIRR or/and MNR?<<
There are trackways for a LIRR connection, but no actual trackage. The most famous one is at Atlantic av, where there is a trackway connecting the uptown local tracks to the LIRR Flatbush terminal.
There was also one somewhere near the Linden shops facility, but the tracks have been removed there too.
>>Were the damaged/destroyed cars renumbered for another R62,R142 or R143?<<
No.
There WAS track there about 3 years ago but due to recent construction it was removed and now homeless people are known to reside there.
Tonite - Mon 10/01/01, on the History Channel's "This week in History",
one of the segments will discuss NYC Grand Central Terminal.
(also first non-stop transpacific flight; Henry Ford; Sputnik)
8pm ET;
Repeats at 12 MID ET
I out to the HCRR on Sunday for their fall extravaganza and met up with one of my friends, James, who volunteers there. The weather was lovely and a reasonable assortment of vehicles were running, although one of the Peter Witts was down as was CTA 48 and both the TRC wooden car and the TCR (TCR, not a typo of TRC) double ended car are unchanged. Several of us noticed that there weren't as many visitors as usual for the extravaganza but the turnout was still very good and it wasn't crowded anywhere which was fine.
The day itself was uneventful except for the first trip that the Gloucsters made down the line - while they were loading someone already inside pressed the Passenger Emergency Alarm, the long yellow strip above the windows, in one of the cars. It still works perfectly as those people with hearing aids or very young kids discovered especially. I tried the cab door hoping that it was unlocked so I could just walk in and push the button to turn off the alarm but the door was locked tight and it wasn't long before someone else who had a cab key and knew which button to press came up and shut the noise off. Needless to say, those emergency assistance alarms were/are very effective.
I later rode down to the other end of the line on the air PCC with James who was driving it. When we arrived at the end of the line, I bumped into one of the TTC streetcar drivers I know who has been a member of the HCRR since some time in the early to mid 1970s. He started joking about how he should've known he'd find me on a PCC and I joked back - mainly for the 'benefit' of some of the more stuffy HCRR members standing around - that I was showing considerable restraint since I hadn't stolen any of the PCCs and taken it for a spin yet. He caught on so we started up our running joke about how I 'steal cars' which was fun indeed - seeing the acute looks of horror on these guys faces while they glanced between the two of us, listening to us joke around was worth every last penny of the $7.50 admission fee I paid to get in!
The rest of the day was quite uneventful by comparison, perhaps lamentably so. I was disappointed by the fact that they started putting streetcars away at least a full hour before the stated 5:00PM closing time because it made for a very short day and I didn't get to ride on quite a few of them as a result including the all electric PCC, 4600, which is one of my favourites (I never 'stole' that one, I only ever got my hands on the higher numbered ones).
Next year should be more interesting with the Gloucsters getting painted next summer, the M1 subway cars hopefully running and the restoration of the London (Ontario) streetcar finished.
-Robert King
When the Station is rebuilt could the old mosaic be brought back in some way perhaps even built into the wall like is was from 1915-1970?
That would indeed be a very nice thing to do! I suspect that behind what is left of that beige brick are samples of the original tablets, friezes and hexagonal "ferryboat" icons. Perhaps some of these are in salvageable condition. If so, then they can do what was done at Christopher Street-Sheridan Square and Canal/Varick stations - that is to reproduce the original icons. The original pattern is the same as is found in all of the local stops from South Ferry (INNER LOOP) to 28th Street - the "hourglass" pattern with hexagonal (sideways) icons; the icons at Cortlandt Street showed a steamer ferryboat crossing the river. If they don't use that pattern, perhaps an icon showing the new buildings could be used. In any case, the original 1917 design should be recreated.
wayne
I'm all for preservation and restoration. But there is also room for what is the best of today. And certainly this station deserves the best of what current design can do, particularly considering that it's likely to be a memorial in its own right.
I've mentioned my own ideas already. Recycle some of those crumpled columns into the design. Then, big bright mosaics of cops and firemen.
They might try to do it on the cheap, tho', essentially repairing the station in situ, with mis-matched tiles where replacement is necessary.
Are there pictures on this site anywhere of what the mosaics used
to look like? I'd love to refresh my memory on those.
Perhaps my t-shirt company could find a way to preserve what was
on a shirt. Though, I am torn between your ideas of a restoration or
and a memorial to the firefighters and police officers.
I love the stations where tiles are hand-painted and made part of
the walls.
I can see hundreds of their faces painted on tiles and used at the
station. The bad part is, it would be so incredibly sad everyday.
Those who lived through it might not be able to take that constant
reminder.
A permanent wall where survivors could come to remember those lost,
like the walls of the "missing" all over the city, would be appropriate. Like the Vietnam memorial. I know that the survivors
take comfort just touching the names of their loved ones on that wall.
It may not be best done underground, though.
I will try to speak to the "Arts in Transit" folks to see if there
are any plans in development.
>>> A permanent wall where survivors could come to remember those lost, like the walls of the "missing" all over the city, would be appropriate. Like the Vietnam memorial. I know that the survivors take comfort just touching the names of their loved ones on that wall <<<
Although a memorial like this might be appropriate somewhere at the WTC site, it should not be in the subway station (particularly within fare control) since the purpose of the station (and the TA) is to move people from one location to another. Any thing that would attract people to the station and cause them to stay within the station would be counter productive. A mural depicting firefighters and other emergency personnel without names might be appropriate.
Tom
Are there pictures on this site anywhere of what the mosaics used to look like? I'd love to refresh my memory on those.
look here, scroll down to Cortlandt St.
Good show, Dave, coming up with those two lost icons! If the originals are going to be recreated, this will be invaluable reference material, especially iw_cortlandt05.jpg, which shows the original colors and border detail.
wayne
Current policy is to restore the "traditional" (original) look when renovating stations. While I do not have official info, it is likely that the Beige brick will revert to the original white along with the original ornamentation. Ssd far as art work- I expect federal funds will be used to rebuild the 1 line. If this is true, then artwork must be included.
BTW- Peggy is working on a tile setting page--it seems that not all white tile is arranged the same way. She has found at least 3 patterns-
stacked (most stations on the IRT and IND), Running bond(most common brick pattern seen on houses)and can be seen at Chambers on the J among others. A third pattern is an English bond which has alternating layers of square tile with narrow rectangular tile. each pattern alternates from the last, with each of the same pattern being stacked from the last courtse of its own kind. An example of this is Cortlandt BMT, 36 St Brooklyn and others.
English Bond can be found in any of the 4th Avenue express stations, as well as 9th Avenue lower level and station house, as well as stops along the Pelham Bay underground stretch from 3 Avenue to Hunts Point. I am sure there are other examples of this style as well.
wayne
To The Group:
Refining the IRT Notes of September 22-23, 2001.
R-62A fleets assigned to the #1 and #3 lines prior to the September 11 emergency were pooled for use on the extended #1 to New Lots Ave., starting September 19, 2001.
On September 25, R-62As assigned to the #1 line (1651-1675, 1711-1715, 1726-1735, 1771-1775, 1816-1830, 1856-1865, 2156-2475) began appearing on the 3. These are two sets of "linked" or unitized sets of 5 cars each and the first time such equipment has been used on the 3 line. Cars assigned to the 3 line continue to be used on the extended 1. These generally consist of 5 singles and one 5-car unit (1800s) or 10 single units.
There have also been at least 20 additional R-62As transferred from the Pelham fleet to the Broadway (#1) fleet.
There were exactly 20 R-62As transferred from 6 to 1 on September 15, 2001: 1671-1675, 1711-1715, 1771-1775 and 1816-1820. This is being regarded as a temporary change.
Redbirds on the 2 and 5 lines have been pooled more so than previous.
As of September 25, there were 194 GE R-26/28/29s active. Most are on the 5, a handful have turned up on the 2.
As of September 25, R-33 trains are broken into several subgroups:
8806-8835, 8856-8883 and 8886-8953 are assigned to the 5 and also run on the 2. There is often R-33s from the 2 mixed into these consists.
8836-8855 remain on the 4, mixed with 9216-9223 and 9226-9305.
8954-8957, 8960-8967, 8970-8979, 8982-9017, 9020-9055 and 9058-9075 are assigned to the 2 and also run on the 5. There may be R-33s from the 8806-8835 and 8856-8953 groups mixed into these consists.
9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9123, 9126-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-9151, 9154-9211 and 9214/9215 are assigned to the 2. They also appear on the 5 and might have R-33s from the other groups mixed into consists.
To illustrate the above, here were the 2/5 Redbird consists observed on September 22, 2001:
1) #5: 8747/8746-8714/8715-8764/8765-7914/7915-7774/7775.
2) #5: 8688/8689-7920/7921-7809/7808-7856/7857-8783/8782.
3) #5: 8935/8934-8870/8871-8860/8861-8817/8816-8811/8810.
4) #5: 8727/8726-7805/7804-7831/7830-7816/7817-7848/7849.
5) #5: 8994/8995-9026/9027-9066/9067-8944/8945-9003/9002.
6) #5: 9201/9200-9148/9149-9185/9184-9194/9195-9014/9015.
7) #5: 9139/9138-9107/9106-9123/9122-9043/9042-9168/9169.
8) #5: 8992/8993-9044/9045-8983/8982-9210/9211-9028/9029.
9) #5: 8760/8761-8711/8710-8752/8753-7896/7897-7958/7959.
10) #5: 7795/7796-8768/8769-7899/7898-8792/8793-8702/8703.
11) #5: 8717/8716-8733/8732-8804/8805-8719/8718-8771/8770.
12) #5: 7937/7936-7867/7866-8694/8695-7791/7790-7773/7772.
13) #2: 9203/9202-9159/9158-9085/9084-9075/9074-9130/9225.
14) #2: 9171/9170-9112/9113-9034/9035-9172/9173-9086/9087.
15) #2: 9212/9115-9080/9081-9076/9077-9048/9049-9097/9096.
16) #2: 8812/8813-8925/8924-8906/8907-8863/8862-8975/8974.
17) #2: 9062/9063-9000/9001-9064/9065-9151/9150-9103/9102.
18) #2: 7819/7818-7933/7932-8744/8745-8784/8785-7781/7780.
19) #2: 9179/9178-9017/9016-9012/9013-9141/9140-9188/9189.
R-62As assigned to the 3 have not changed, but are extended to 10-car trains.
There is a strong possibility some of the Livonia-based R-62As (blue stripes) may begin to congregate numerically in groups of 5, as a prelude to partial unitization.
There were about 74 WH R-29s remaining on the 6.
As of September 25 there were 80 WH R-29s active on the 6. Several sets have been cycled in and out of service through August and September; 12 were reactivated when the 20 R-62As went to the 1 on September 15. As more R-142As are placed in service the withdrawal of WH R-29s will resume.
These were the #6 Redbird consists of September 22, 2001:
1) #6: 8592/8593-8671/8670-8617/8616-8666/8667-8591/8590.
2) #6: 8608/8609-8613/8612-8581/8580-8657/8656-8679/8678.
3) #6: 8621/8620-8665/8664-8605/8604-8632/8633-8651/8650.
4) #6: 8644/8645-8618/8619-8683/8682-8653/8652-8643/8642.
The IRT Car Assignment for September 25, 2001 is posted separately.
As for B-Division equipment assignments, the summary was as follows for September 25, 2001:
A: R-32, R-38, R-44
B: R-68
C: R-32, R-38
D: R-68
E: R-32, R-46
F: R-46
G: R-46
H: R-44
J: R-40M/42
L: R-40, R-40M/42
M: R-40, R-40M/42
(N Suspended)
Q Circle: R-32, R-68, R-68A
Q Diamond: R-40
(R suspended)
S (Franklin): R-68
S (Rockaway Park): R-44
S (63rd): R-32
S (Grand): R-46
W: R-68, R-68ARegards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The "H" and S(Rockaway Park) are the same thing.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Southern Brooklyn:
Q Express, sooo many R68s on the Q Express it's not funny. I like the R68s on the Q express. I don't care what you say, my choice. Somebody ride the line a few times and time it. The 7:00 or so T/O on the Q Express worked wonders today. Fast speed and 1 steady brake stopped the train at every station nicely. The 7 Avenue-Atlantic Avenue timers were handled nicely, never touched the brakes, or at least I couldn't feel them. We were going atleast 25-30 in the GT35 area. Som other stuff for railfans to notice, notice how well a 75 footer takes the 3rd rail gap south of Newkirk Avenue leaving the station toward Brighton. The 60 footers chokes and take a few seconds to come back.
A Hippo on steroids oh my ! They are going to blow a gasket or something ... lots of work for the Dude in the Bronx. Too bad they don't have a railfan window :-(
Mr t
The R-68s (Hippos) happen to ride a lot better than the Slant R-40s. I'm sure that the R-68s are juat as fast as the Slant R-40s but are a lot smoother.
#3 West End Jeff
Smooth with out a railfan window is OK for "customers", but not much fun for us ... need I say more.
BTW, our PCC #1001 starts rocking as ONE person gets on, so when she goes down the line that's FUN.
Mr t
Yes, I happen to think so, I swear, you barely hear it accelerate and it's sooo quiet when the A/C of off. I was a cold morning.
> The 7 Avenue-Atlantic Avenue timers
Which timers are those?
- Lyle Goldman
There are a set or 35 MPH timers heading northbound from 7 Avenue to Atlantic Avenue.
Don't forget:
Q diamond: R40, R68
I came to New York last Saturday to dance Argentine Tango all night. Dancing cheek to cheek, chest to chest with emotional connection is a great way to forget the world's events, if only for 3 minutes 22 seconds.
I left from New Carrollton, MD, the stop after Washington on #186 (2:16 PM) scheduled to arrive NYP at 5:35 PM. I got in ten minutes late. The train stopped around N. Philly (MP 86 to be exact) to clear debris from the track. An off duty NY policeman on the train got off and arrested a suspect (14 YO). The train proceeded to N Philly where both got off to wait for Amtrak police. It was weird to see the boy in handcuffs.
It was an erie feeling to see the NY skyline after crossing Portal Drawbridge and NOT seeing the towers. The city looked naked with only the Empire State Building standing guard.
Upon arrival, I decided to ride the #2 to E241 Street. Why? It's like Star Trek. To go where I've never been before.
No matter how much I read on this board and MTA web page about changes, you can't fully comprehend them until you ride. It was strange to see handmade signs that said "1 local, 2 express" on the local tracks at Penn Station. To see the #3 on the express track with only one destination posted. (14th street isn't on the roll sign.)
At 135th, I changed to the #2. A female employee (don't know if subway or bus) was talking to the motorman, so the door was open, but I couldn't look in because it was open as little as possible and the woman was hefty. I couldn't understand any of the conversation until we got to about 223rd street. "I can smell the terminal now."
What I don't understand is why the MTA can put out a subway map "REVISED 9/19" but CAN'T or WON'T put out updated bus guides for the boroughs. It's ridiculous that you get a Bronx guide for September 1999 or Manhattan guide for January 2000. I wonder if there is a bias towards rail operations over bus operations. Note: Somebody wrote that I should go to the LIRR office in the passenger waiting area to get schedules. Nice idea but the office was CLOSED!
My original plan was to ride back to 180th Street and ride the #5 to Dyre Avenue. Not enough time, I stayed on the #2 to 135th, #3 to 72, #2 to 59th, C to 50th and ate dinner at Beefsteak Charlie's. Then onto dancing. I didn't realize that Amtrak has suspended DAILY luggage storage at Penn Station so I took my bags to the dance studio.
On my next visit, I'll try to get to Dyre Avenue.
When it ended at 5:15 AM, two women gave me a lift to the station to catch #79 at 6:05 AM. Boarding was delayed because "no motor, no lights." Some things never change.
The ride was smooth. I fell asleep and woke up in Philly. Went back to sleep and woke up in Wilmington. Went back to sleep and woke up in Baltimore. Stayed awake to New Carrollton.
Michael
Uh oh, did the off duty police officer board to arrest the 14 y/o for putting the debris on the track? I never knew you can actually get arrested for that... :-\
I suppose to place debris on the track requires that you trespass on railroad property.
True.
IRT Car Assignments-September 25, 2001
1/3 (Red)-390 cars
390 WH R-62A 1651-1675, 1711-1715, 1726-1735, 1771-1775, 1816-1830, 1856-1865, 2156-2475 (unitized).
3/1 (Blue)-273 cars
273 WH R-62A 1871-1908, 1910-2154 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1965, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs; 1871-1900 are unitized).
2 (Black)-491 cars
112 GE R-33 8954-8957, 8960-8967, 8970-8979, 8982-9017, 9020-9055, 9058-9075.
134 GE R-33 9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9123, 9126-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-9151, 9154-9211, 9214/9215.
245 Am R-142 6301-6360, 6411-6445, 6476-6480, 6501-6540, 6576-6680.
GE R-26/28/29s from 5 also used on 2.
GE R-33s from 5 (8806-8835, 8856-8883, 8886-8953) also used on 2.
GE R-33s from 2 also used on 5.
4 (Orange)-423 cars
20 GE R-33 8836-8855.
88 GE R-33 9216-9223, 9226-9305.
315 GE R-62 1301-1365, 1371-1434, 1438, 1441-1625 (unitized).
5 (Green)-320 cars
14 GE R-26 7768-7775, 7786/7787, 7790/7791, 7794/7795.
32 GE R-26 7804-7809, 7812/7813, 7816-7821, 7824-7827, 7830-7833, 7838/7839, 7842/7843, 7848/7849, 7852/7853, 7856/7857.
24 GE R-28 7860-7869, 7878-7881, 7886-7889, 7896-7899, 7906/7907.
22 GE R-28 7914-7917, 7920/7921, 7924-7927, 7930-7933, 7936-7939, 7948/7949, 7958/7959.
102 GE R-29 8688-8705, 8708-8711, 8714-8735, 8738-8741, 8744-8771, 8774/8775, 8780-8799, 8802-8805.
126 GE R-33 8806-8835, 8856-8883, 8886-8953.
GE R-33s from 2 (8954-8957, 8960-8967, 8970-8979, 8982-9017, 9020-9055, 9058-9075, 9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-9151, 9154-9211, 9214/9215) also used on 5.
Two WH R-62A from 6 (1676-1710, 1716-1725, 1736-1770, 1776-1815, 1831-1855, 1866-1870) on 5 for OPTO.
GE R-26/28/29s from 5 also used on 2.
GE R-33s from 5 (8806-8835, 8856-8883, 8886-8953) also used on 2.
6 (Yellow)-510 cars
80 WH R-29 8570-8573, 8576/8577, 8580-8585, 8588-8597, 8604/8605, 8608/8609, 8612/8613, 8618-8625, 8628-8633, 8640-8653, 8656/8657, 8660-8673, 8676-8679, 8682-8685.
150 WH R-62A 1676-1710, 1716-1725, 1736-1770, 1776-1815, 1831-1855, 1866-1870 (unitized).
280 Am R-142A 7211-7485, 7491-7495 (unitized).
Two WH R-62A from 6 (1676-1710, 1716-1725, 1736-1770, 1776-1815, 1831-1855, 1866-1870) on 5 for OPTO.
7 (WH-Black, GE-Yellow)-403 cars
38 WH WF R-33 9307-9320, 9322-9345.
132 WH WF R-36 9346-9477.
20 WH R-36 9526-9539, 9542/9543, 9546/9547, 9550/9551.
212 GE WF R-36 9558-9769.
S (Blue)-10 cars
10 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-2154 (cars 0, 1, 5, 6 from 1901-1965, except 1905 and 1910, have full-width cabs).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The 5 was all Redbird, the 2 was half, the 4 had some and the 6 had few. And the 7 didn't recieve its first R62A's until Feburary 2002.
From The Boston Globe's Sunday "Start and Stops column.
{ It was ''Whip 'em Off Wednesday'' last week at the MBTA, which removed more than 1,000 advertising placards from its stations and buses. That's what ''WOW'' stood for today, though it's also the promotional slogan for the popular, radio duo Opie and Anthony, who appear on WBCN-FM in Boston. General manager Robert H. Prince Jr. yesterday killed a four-week advertising campaign after only five days because the seemingly benign three-letter word prominently displayed throughout the transit system is also a controversial acronym. At WBCN, ''WOW'' stands for ''Whip 'em Out Wednesday,'' an invitation for women to bare their breasts publicly. ''It slipped through the cracks,'' said MBTA spokesman Joe Pesaturo. ''We're going to have to scrutinize these ads a little closer.''}
This shows how stupid the T has gotten. The word "WOW" is not offensive I don't find anything that the radio station is doing to be offensive. What I find offensive is religious fundamentalists passing out hateful leaflets on the platforms and telling passengers they are going to go to hell. Why can't the T do something about that?
I'm so glad I don't reside in Boston, or have to ride the crappy "T".
Hey be careful what you say. Boston is great city is like New York no do a like the way the state government work no way but it is great city nonetheless. And the Red, Orange and Blue lines are as good as the New York subway. They don't have an express local system but the stations are placed further apart than they are in New York.
Hahahaha! That's a really good joke! Just as good as NYC!
In case you haven't noticed, Boston and NYC have always had some sort of rivalry or another (the biggest one is the Yankees and Red Sox). The Boston T is just another system that tries to be like NYC but just doesn't quite fill the bill.
"The Boston T is just another system that tries to be like NYC but just doesn't quite fill the bill."
No the "T" is actually older than the New York subway. We had the first subway in North America (1897) The first electric high platform subway (1901) the first under water rapid transit tunnel (1904) and we started the station modernization program in 1967. The T never tries to be like the NYC Subway.
The MBTA also serves a huge district with commuter rail lines extending to almost every point of the compass. The subway system is not as extensive as that in NYC but you must remember that the city is far smaller physically than New York and has only one-tenth the population. The subways and certainly (T) management have their shortcomings, but there is a history of innovation, some good some not so good. The MBTA does its job in Boston as well as the MTA does in New York. Nobody's perfect. :)
I have my fair share of gripes with the "T", but as a college student on the south shore of Boston who is carless, its what i have to deal with to get into the city. But nontheless, it can be fun too as a railfan. The building of the north station superstation, mattapan line, and riding type 8s (when they actually run) is a thrill, along with riding any subway. -Nick
[re censorship of "WOW" ads]
Most likely, the MBTA got some complaints, and figured out that removing the ads would be less controversial than keeping them.
I was heading home on the 'A' after dropping a friend off at a Nearby station when to my surprise I saw a R-68A on the Smith 9th Street-Bound track of the G line. But it wasnt a 'G' it was a 'Q'. I had to take a good look at the opposite side of the station because I was on a crowded Lefferts-Bound 'A'. It happened around 9 PM today. Any Ideas why there was a 'Q' at Hoyt??
R68x domination!! It's everywhere. 6 Avenue, Queens Boulevard, Broadway, Central Park West, Concourse, Brighton, West End, and now Crosstown.
I'd be really worried if they start showing up on the IRT or down here on Metro.
If they show up on the IRT, then I've got 2 words for you: STAND BACK!!!
If R68's showed up on an IRT, they would actually be like hippos for the first time.
Imagine a 75-footer trying to do the curve between Courthouse Square and Hunterspoint Ave. OY!
:-D Andrew
SCREEE-EEEE-EECH!!!
CRR-UU-NNNNNNNNCH!!!!
i thought B Division cars cannot fit on A Division tracks. So what would a R68 be doing on the 7!!!
It wouldn't be. Therein lies the joke.
:-) Andrew
Why do people suddenly get the notion that R68A's will show up on the IRT division lines? What kind of inside or outside jokes are these?
If Train Dude looked at this thread and didn't take it as a joke, he would be surprised at all of you.
WHERE did everyone suddenly think that R68A's will show up on the #7 line?
Railfan Pete
Anyone with a brain knows that that was a joke.
Just silly thoughts, intentionally so. We all know B-divison cars can't run on the IRT lines (such as the 7.) Don't take it so seriously.
:-) Andrew
Oh... that's what that long, 75 foot silver train with steel wheels running on the Montreal Metro the other day was... :-)
R68x domination!! It's everywhere. 6 Avenue, Queens Boulevard, Broadway, Central Park West, Concourse, Brighton, West End, and now Crosstown.
You're being redundant considering the fact that the Concourse line and the 6th Av. lines connect with the same B and D trains.
The Brighton line (Q) operates through the Qns. Blvd. line until R service can be restored. *
Just because an R68(A) appears on the Crosstown line only once, doesn't mean the T/A is going to operate it through there even for a while.
* FYI: Next time you make a visit to the Queens Blvd. line, report to me how many R68's you see here. I was here last Sunday, and I saw 7 Brighton iine trains. None of them were an R68(A).
Was it just me or did I have bad luck? Any other Qns. Blvd. trip reports?
Railfan Pete.
Just got off of a 71st bound circle Q-train R8(A)consist. As far as I've seen over the past few weeks there have been quite a few 68(A)circle-Q's. ]
Also saw the elusive r143 'running laps' out in Far Rockaway this morning and later again this afternoon. So that's where they've been keeping it.
Police action on the Manhattan Bridge. Therefore the train got rerouted to Stillwell via the G Crosstown and the F south of Bergen.
Time for R. Marrero to add a lime-green Q to the subway bullets web page collection.
Jose
:)
Why was there police action on the Manhattan Bridge? Also, did the Q train skip any stops, and did it go all the way to Coney Island?
- Lyle Goldman
The Branford pict's are great. I wish I could have been there. I never knew Branford had 4 gate cars untill looking at the preserved car pictures just now. Are any of the other 3 close to running? I also saw the pictures of SIRT 388 which looks really good as well. Anyone know does it run?
We actually have 5 gate cars: 659, 1227, 1349, 1362 and 197. The
latter is a blind trailer. Only 1227 runs.
The SI car 388 does not run and it will require a pretty heavy
overhaul before it can do so. It was stored for 20+ years
at the Con Ed plant in SI where water ruined most of the wiring.
It also needs to have its wheels trued.
When the last R30s retired in 1993 the ERA did the "farewell", on what BMT/IND lines did it cover during that fantrip? What car #s were used other than 8317?
The R-30 trip was like this:
Leave 59th St - Columbus Circle, via IND 6th Ave line to Brooklyn via Rutgers Street Tunnel
Express Jay St - Ave X via IND SOuth Brooklyn & BMT Culver Lines
Run through Coney Island yard
Stillwell Ave to Prospect Park via Brighton Express
Franklin Ave Shuttle
Return to Stillwell Ave via Brighton Express
Stillwell Ave to 9th Ave / 39th St via West End Line
Reverse move into lower level of 9th Ave / 39th Street
Reverse move into 36th St yard
39th St to 21st Street / Queensbridge via 4th Ave express / Manhattan Bridge / IND 6th Ave Express
Return to 34th Street / 6th Ave - end of trip
Take a virtual ride on the fantrip.
--Mark
question did you use 3M 35mm film ?? the pics look like they were shot with 3M film...
the shots did not look like they were done with kodak gold or fuji film ...
I have a question on the 42nd Street Shuttle all its life the shuttle have ran only single unit trains(R12,R14,R15,R17-22)unit the R62/62A arrived, but did the shuttle ever ran married pair trains like R26-33ML?
From memory, the shuttle went from R17's directly to R62/62A's.
I don't ever recall seeing married "R" pairs on the GCS.
R-17 #6688 did service there in white.
Mr t
And an orange, then blue interior.
Mr z
And in Redbird paint months before entering Branford's property.
-Stef
Hey Stef, has 6688 ever been signed up for the 42nd St. shuttle since it's been at Shore Line?
Don't forget the Lo-v's in your list of single units that made up consists on the Shuttle.
I still remember when the Shuttle ran the 1938 World's Fair Low-Vs in the 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
From the Railway Age Website:
RailWorks files for reorganization
Railworks Corp. and its U.S. subsidiaries filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization on Sept. 21. Canadian operations are not affected by the filing. The company's existing credit group has agreed to provide it with a credit and bond facility up to $165 million. Chief Executive John Kennedy said this means that "every division of our company will be able to compete for new business, including bonded business." The credit group includes Bank of America, CSFB Global Opportunity Advisers, Stonehill Capital Management, and a unit of Travelers Insurance.
Railworks lists the following NYCT projects on its website:
New York City Transit Authority (NYCTA) White Plains - Phase II Signal Rehabilitation Project, White Plains, NY.
Rehabilitate the existing 75-year-old signal system along the White Plains Line (LRT), including the Phase II segment from 149th Street Station to 180th Street Station in the Bronx. $89 million.
New York City Transit Authority (NYCTA)Carnarsie Line, New York, NY.
Complete installation of a new Communications Based Train Control System (CBTC) for 13 route miles of the Canarsie Line subway in association with Matra Transport International and Union Switch & Signal. Contract value: $75 million.
NYCTA, New York, NY.
Rehabilitate the train control signal system for 5.1 miles of track on the Flushing Line subway. Contract value: $67 million.
NYCTA, New York, NY.
Furnish and install 8 escalators at 5 locations in the boroughs of Brooklyn and Manhattan. Contract value: $15 million.
What does this mean for current projects?
You can't tell w/o more information. It could mean anything from nothing to having to get a new contractor. If the company is sound in the long run but having a short term cash crunch, I expect it will try to honor as many of its contracts as it can.
Looks like all of the above projects will be delayed a bit. But how is it that they go belly up when NYCTA is in the process of paying them for a work in progress?
(But how is it that they go belly up when NYCTA is in the process of paying them for a work in progress?)
RWKS bought up half the signal contractors in the U.S., leveraging itself to the hilt in the process, in an attempt to become the mega-contractor. The NYCT contractors made money, but others lost, and eventually drained the whole thing into Chapter 11.
Hopefully after reorganization, the profit-making parts of RWKS (ie. the parts that do business with the TA) will emerge as separate going concerns, without money being siphoned off to other parts of the country.
BUT there is practically no one left in the signal business to do TA contracts, which is why RWKS had so many. Less competition means higher prices and delays.
Some escalator projects they have include:
125 on the 1
Myrtle/Wyckoff(M/L)
Boro Hall (2/3-1 escalator) and (N/R to IRT=2 escalators).
125 and Broadway has slipped from spring 2001 to fall and I expect it to be longer.
Myrtle/Wyckoff has slipped to Spring 2002.
Is LK Comstock under the Railworks umbrella?
(Is LK Comstock under the Railworks umbrella?)
Yes, although at this point perhaps there's a better word that "umbrella." "Cloud" is more like it.
Last night, I was watching New York: A Documentary Film by Ric Burns on channel 21, WLIW. A main topic of the episode was about Robert Moses (or, as I like to call him, The Destroyer). The story-angle was skewed unmercifully against the man, and even showed clips of him in interviews, where his arrogance and stubborness was unabashedly in full-view. Of course, my point of view about his "legacy" was the same as the film, but I couldn't help wonder if there are/were any supporters of Robert Moses who were not politicians or Long Island Real Estate developers.
The segment wrapped up with the story of the woman (I can't remember her name) who wrote a book about re-thinking "modernism" and urban planning to include efforts to preserve and rennovate, rather than destroy. She led the fight against the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would have run on 30th Street (I presume between the Lincoln and Queens Midtown tunnels), and won. Considering what she was up against, it seems like a miracle she could thwart Mr. Automobile (ironic that the man couldn't drive!).
Also, a large portion of the episode was about the destruction of Penn Station, with the pictures we have all seen of its heyday and final days.
I recommend this documentary highly for anyone who loves the city, even transplants like me.
I've read a lot about the things Robert Moses did on this forum. As someone who isn't from New York, there are a lot of things I don't know about his story. My questions are: What motivated him? Why was he so pro car and anti-transit? What was his underlying vision, and was it typical of his time?
Mark
I've read a lot about the things Robert Moses did on this forum. As someone who isn't from New York, there are a lot of things I don't know about his story. My questions are: What motivated him? Why was he so pro car and anti-transit? What was his underlying vision, and was it typical of his time?
Moses was largely a product of his times. He came to power in an era when city life had little if any of the urbane, sophisticated charm that it often has today. The immigrants or children of immigrants who populated New York and some other cities during the decades starting after World War I seldom if ever saw the cities as charming places; more likely, they found their neighborhoods to be crowded, noisy and dirty, and were dependent on crowded subways, trolleys and buses for mobility. Many of these people longed for the comparatively wide-open spaces in the suburbs, and more importantly for the mobility and sense of freedom offered by automobiles. While Moses sought to satisfy those desires, he did not create them.
(While Moses sought to satisfy those desires, he did not create them.)
Exactly the point, and where Caro goes wrong. With benefit of hindsight Moses did some good things, and some bad things. But older cities didn't decline because Moses had power (as Caro implies). Moses had power because he latched onto social trends and rode them.
Caro's entire thesis -- that the expressways destroyed neighborhoods and caused the entire flight to the suburbs and the decline of the cities -- is based on his section on East Tremont and the Cross Bronx. He claimed that East Tremont had held off blight -- that white flight had been stopped right below it. Only when the expressway went through did white flight accelerate.
What, however, about the "control group?" There was massive white flight from central Brooklyn and no expressway. There was no white flight in Windsor Terrace and an expressway that tore out the center of the neighborhood (the Prospect). What about the decline of neighborhoods in other older cities that didn't have expressways built through them? His correlation, based on one case and questionable in any event, is ridiculous.
Title I and Title II were disasters for the cities. But if Title I uprooted the poor in favor of the affluent, why did the cities become the poorhouses of the nation?
In short, Moses role in the negative is exaggerated (he himself exaggerated his own role in the positive). Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Caro's entire thesis -- that the expressways destroyed neighborhoods and caused the entire flight to the suburbs and the decline of the cities -- is based on his section on East Tremont and the Cross Bronx. He claimed that East Tremont had held off blight
-- that white flight had been stopped right below it. Only when the expressway went through did white flight accelerate.
Caro also failed to point out that most of the whites living in East Tremont just before the Cross Bronx came through were in late middle age or elderly. The younger people moving into the 'hood even before the construction began were almost entirely minority. In short, East Tremont was already going through major demographic changes that would have made it a minority area before long.
Caro's entire thesis -- that the expressways destroyed neighborhoods and caused the entire flight to the suburbs and the decline of the cities -- is based on his section on East Tremont and the Cross Bronx. He claimed that East Tremont had held off blight-- that white flight had been stopped right below it. Only when the expressway went through did white flight accelerate.
Whoa, Larry! That's a wild overstatement of Caro's thesis. If you read the book (which is more nuanced than the portion of the documentary dealing with Moses), Caro very openly says that New York needed modern, arterial highways. Before Moses came along, none was built. After Moses fell from power, (almost) none was built.
What Caro criticizes are the heavy-handed, contemptuous methods Moses used. For example, he could have easily built the LIE and provided room along the right of way for future mass transit. Moses refused, because he had an irrational dislike for mass transit. Can you tell me why he couldn't have satisfied the desires of city dwellers for a car and a yard in the 'burbs and also satisfied their future need for mass transit?
I'm a little surprised that you and Peter are so quick to defend Moses (maybe you think that, because he gets grief from knee-jerk lefties, he must be a hale fellow). You two are usually the most thoughtful libertarian-ish contributors to this board, and Moses was a libertarian's nightmare of big-government planning run amok.
I'm a little surprised that you and Peter are so quick to defend Moses (maybe you think that, because he gets grief from knee-jerk lefties, he must be a hale fellow). You two are usually the most thoughtful libertarian-ish contributors to this board, and Moses was a libertarian's nightmare of big-government planning run amok.
It's not really a political thing ... what I admire about Moses was the simple fact that he got things done. He was a doer, not a talker, in other words the sort of person who's in very short supply today.
It's not really a political thing ... what I admire about Moses was the simple fact that he got things done. He was a doer, not a talker, in other words the sort of person who's in very short supply today.
Yes, he really got things done. Thanks to his arrogance, the Dodgers left Brooklyn....
did you get your name from the Godzilla movie?
I got question relating to Moses. He thought that trains and trucks were obsolete. If he was aganist trains, as well as trucks (someone pointed out here that LIC bridges were too low for them), how exactly did he expect goods to be transported?
I got question relating to Moses. He thought that trains and trucks were obsolete. If he was aganist trains, as well as trucks (someone pointed out here that LIC bridges were too low for them), how exactly did he expect goods to be transported?
Moses had nothing against trucks. He built some cars-only parkways on Long Island, but he wasn't the first to come up with that idea. The parkways were aimed mainly at pleasure travelers and new suburban residents, with trucks expected to use other routes.
Some of the confusion may result from the fact that there are overpasses on the Meadowbrook Parkway which prevent buses from using it to get to Jones Beach State Park. It has been claimed that this was a deliberate decision on Moses' part, designed to keep bus-riding riff raff off the beaches. Whether this is true or not is anyone's guess, but it's worth noting that buses can use other, albeit less direct routes to access the beaches.
Wish I knew it was on ... I would have taped it for sure!
--Mark
Or, you can buy it at Amazon.com for $89.88.
Or you can see/tape it Saturday, October 13 at 9AM or 6PM (according to Thirteen Magazine).
Now we're talking! Thanks for this "station break" :)
--Mark
Actually, the woman you referred to was lobbying against an expressway that would run through Greenwich Village, SoHo, etc.
Her name was Jane Jacobs.
And, apparently, she had trouble thinking long term and seeing the big picture.
- Lyle Goldman
Why? In that the big picture had to involve a destructive expressway and replacing the buildings of the Lower West Side, the Cast Iron District and Greenwich Village (now known as TriBeCa, SoHo, and Greenwich Village) with horrible Co-op city style freakshows? Ever walked through the Lower East Side near the Williamsburg Bridge?
I watched the enite film when it first premiered on PBS in November 1999. Stretching from the founding days of the city to the beginning of the Depression and the construction of the Empire State Building, two more episodes were added for the Depression and WWII years and this, the Moses/Modern era.
I was very happy to catch it last night. Despite it's disclaimers, I found the footage they used several times of the construction of the WTC quite heartbreaking.
I then realized that out of all this tragedy and horror, a new chapter was being written in the city's storied history and that great things seem to happen after bad things happen in New York.
Of course, I didn't appreciate Robert A.M. Stern's exasperation that one considered location for the U.N. was my hometown of Philly.
What's so bad about us?:)
I didn't know there were two new episodes. On what nights are the new ones airing?
Mark
"Check your local listings."
Here in Boston, the series has been running at 9pm on Channel 2 (WGBH-TV), and repeated three times during the week on Channel 44 (WGBX-TV). Last night was episode 6; next week is episode 7.
Nothing's all that bad about Philly... it's just that nothing's all that good either :-)
Seriously, be thankful you don't have the U.N. in Philadelphia... one less bad thing for you to worry about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The segment wrapped up with the story of the woman (I can't remember her name) who wrote a book about re-thinking "modernism" and urban planning to include efforts to preserve and rennovate, rather than destroy. She led the fight against the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would have run on 30th Street (I presume between the Lincoln and Queens Midtown tunnels), and won. Considering what she was up against, it seems like a miracle she could thwart Mr. Automobile (ironic that the man couldn't drive!).
I believe that book is The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs. If I'm wrong, it's still a good read.
For a rather one-sided treatment of Robert Moses, I suggest The Power Broker by Robert Caro. Take this book with a grain of salt- as far as biographies go, Caro certainly has an agenda to pursue, and seemed to be willing to bend the truth a bit to suit some of his more damning accusations of Moses.
A perfect example of this is the treatment on building the Henry Hudson Parkway. While the section in the more middle-class upper west side was built at the edge of the river flanked by a ribbon park of his creation, the highway section through Harlem is claimed to have been built as a viaduct because of some racist agenda on his part. Caro neglects to mention that this viaduct was built west of an existing viaduct (for Riverside Drive) built many decades before. Additionally, claim that he made the overpasses on the Meadowbrook Parkway intentionally low so minorities could not ride buses to Jones Beach is a stretch, when his chief engineer had stated that they were built intentionally low to save on materials costs. Incidentially, buses can and do go to Jones Beach anyway. Not sure when they started bus service there, but I'm sure the roads supporting this bus service were there all along.
Yes, Moses was a monster at times. His anti-transit legacy is one we've been forced to live with in the years since his fall from power- just look at the Airtrain fiasco. (For minimal investment when the Van Wyck was built, a subway could have been run down the median, but Moses was notoriously anti-transit) However, don't take Caro's word for gospel- Caro has an agenda that is a product of the time when the book was written in the early 70's. Regardless, it is a fascinating insight into the world of Robert Moses. The amount of power this man wielded was staggering- there will never be another like him (though, the argument can be made lamenting this assertion).
That's your cue, folks. Argue away. :)
Strange as it may seem now, Robert Moses was considered a major asset for New York during his first 30-35 years in state and city government. It was only in the final 10-12 years that public opinion started turning sharply against him, and his image has yet to resover from that.
The birth of the New Deal-government projects system in the United States, which Franklin Roosevelt gets credit for, really sprang up in New York during the term of his predacessor, Al Smith, with Robert Moses as the architect in charge of turning Smith's ideas into reality. Smith later turned against FDR and the New Deal, while Moses and Roosevelt never really got along, but anyone looking at Moses' career has got to admit his efforts at least up to his 1934 run for governor were mostly beneficial to both New York City and New York State. Moses was the prototype of today's grant writer, and since he had basically written the rules on how to write the grants, he knew the ins and outs better than anyone and was able to get the city and state more than its proportional share of federal aid after tyhe NRA, CCC and other federal programs were formed during the depression (in part because FDR liked LaGuardia at the time more than he hated Moses).
After he was rejected by the voters in favor of Herbert H. Lehman in '34 (not a good year to be running as a Republican anywhere), Moses did turn more towards consolidating power in unelected positions, such as the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority and NYS Power Authority.
To give him the benefit of the doubt in the period when his first roads were built between 1930-1950, it really was believed back then that you could build a Southern State, Grand Central or Taconic Parkway and people from the city would just drive out there to visit the countryside, and not actually think about moving there and commuting back into New York five days a week. Of course, there was also some self-aggrandizement in there -- Moses didn't just disdain subways, he hated vehicular tunnels as well because no one could see those things even though they were just as efficent as a bridge.
But it wasn't until the 1950s that his consolidation of power and arrogance really started to turn a lot of New Yorkers against him. not so much because of his plans for highways everywhere, but due to his Tavern on the Green/Casino double-standard and the Joseph Papp/Shakespear battle in Central Park. Stuff like that made rich Manhattanites sit up and take notice, and that was a major strategic error, since they also had power bases.
After that came the problems with the 1964-65 New York World's Fair (I thought it was great, but the bondholders didn't), and the combination softened him up for the final takedown by Rockefeller in 1968, though Caro was right about him chewing up and spitting out John Lindsey in his attempt to remove Moses' power in 1966.
In short, Moses first 20 years (1918-1938) were more good than bad, and his last 30 years (1938-1968) were more bad than good.
Oh, right. The proposed 30th Street elevated expressway was a different project than the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which was the one through The Village and Soho, which she defeated. Both were bad ideas that thankfully never came to fruition.
I've been watching the entire series, week-by-week, here on WGBH-TV/PBS in Boston. It's an incredible story; and incredible production.
If you would like a videotape of the entire seven-part, 14-hour series, it can be obtained at the PBS Web site. But it will cost you a $100 donation on tape; $139 on DVD.
You know, I watched the series the first time it aired on PBS. I liked it so much, I bought the VHS box set. As I watched last night's episode, I sat there thinking that I didn't remember all this stuff about Robert Moses the first time. Well, I was right!
I'm a little miffed that they went and added 2 new episodes, which I'll have to either purchase individually, which I'm not sure is possible, or break down and buy the new 7-cassette box set, thereby duplicating 5/7ths of my previous purchase. Grrrrrr.
What irks me the most is that it's not available on DVD. Same with Ken Burns' Baseball or Civil War documentaries. I simply refuse to buy tapes anymore, especially considering that I don't trust any magnetic medium's shelf life.
I found this DVD version on amazon.com. From what I can tell, it's what you're looking for. I'm considering buying it to add to my small but growing DVD collection. Looks like the extra features might be worth it. I usually don't buy a DVD unless there are "extras" which justify the "extra" cost. I especially like directors' commentaries.
No way! That's pretty sweet. I stand corrected. Baseball and New York are avalable on DVD. I now know what to ask the fiance for x-mas! :)
Personally, I buy DVDs because they're more durable. They cost a couple of bucks more, but I can watch them over and over again without worrying about them getting worn out and losing quality.
Good news, Pete. They sell the last two episodes for $30 (together).
Thanks for the info. Haven't had much time to investigate the sit. since it's unusually busy here today. Only time to rudimenarily peruse PBS.org and amazon.com. Glad to hear the news, though.
They do offer the extra 2-episodes alone on tape. It costs $30. It isn't one of those flagrantly expensive pledge drive tapes, this set is actually decently priced and worth the cost, which is what PBS should be doing.
I should also mention that extra episodes were always in the works. They didn't mention it except on the website though, and the original plan was for 6 episodes, not 7.
Robert Moses was a visionary, and he got a lot of good things done. Sure his methods weren't perfect, and he could have been a little more pro-transit, but let's face it. Highways are just as important as subways. I actually wish that he had gotten even more highways built. Now, unfortunately, practically nothing new is being built in the city, neither highways nor subway lines (yes, I know there are some subway lines being built, but it's not like it once was). I believe it's mostly because of rich politicians. Take Staten Island Borough President What's-his-name. Rather than fighting to get some long-planned and long-awaited highways built, he wants to obliterate their last glimmer of hope. I know most people here prefer subways to highways, but I seriously doubt anyone here would complain if the Korean Way Veterans Parkway were connected to the Staten Island Expressway, as it should have been a long, long time ago. But I guess that's another story.
By the way, I don't think a highway called the Lower Manhattan Expressway was to be built on 30th Street. The Lower Manhattan Expressway was to connect the Holland Tunnel with the Williamsburg Bridge. I believe it was the Mid-Manhattan Expressway that was to run along 30th Street between the Lincoln and Midtown Tunnels.
- Lyle Goldman
CORRECTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS WELCOME, especially from Phil Nasadowsky!
I went about NECfanning in an off-the-beaten track manner. On Friday, I departed from Boston on the Amtrak #145, which is an inland route train for Washington heading via Springfield, Mass. Havnig stayed up way too late on the previous night, I was asleep until we got into Worcester, Mass, the limit of the sphere of operation of MBTA's Commuter Rail service. I have always felt that MBTA should at least extend one train a day to Springfield just so that passengers may MU-hop from New York to Boston via the Inland Route – by using Amtrak's connecting train that runs out of New Haven, and changing at Springfield for the MBTA.
Worcester is a very interesting town. If I remember correctly, the CSX right of way (ex-Boston & Albany) coming into town Westbound is high up on some viaduct, resulting in spectacular views of the townscape. The place feels strangly English with train snaking through curves only a stone's throw away from tall building that have grown up next to the railroad. On the East Coast Mainline, approaching Newcastle from the north, a similar scene is seen in the vicinity of Manors. The station itself looks brand new, and from the train it seems the architecture was tastefully done in sandstone or some similar imitation material. (If I'm wrong about this, then I must have been dreaming as we passed through Worcester.) The downside to all this, of course, is that the station has only one platform; the other side of the station is occupied by some CSX freight yard. The problem this causes is obvious -- on the return bound leg, onboard Amtrak #142 (due at Worcester at 20.00), we were held outside the station for 15 minutes because the "stupid a** dispatcher" (in the words of the Conductor) had let the 20.15 MBTA Commuter train into the platform early. "It must be a new guy." Of course, the other explanation would be that the #142 runs so chronically late that allowing the MBTA train in first usually works -- however, according to the conductor, the #142 is rarely more than 10 mins late by the time it gets to Worcester.
We passed a short freight train between Framingham, Mass. and Worcester, but I do not recall the consist since I was sleeping. I only remember seeing a few big muscles AC's painted in CSX colours. I remember thinking to myself something to the effect of "another 8,000hp on just a couple boxcars".
As for Worcester Yard itself, it appears to be an intermodal yard. I saw a lot of trailers and COFC equipment hanging around. I don't remember if there were any double-stacks or not, but I don't specifically recall seeing any. CSX has a few facilities on the B&A line -- including a small yard and a wye at Framingham, where a line appears to branch off to serve some auto-related place (I once saw an autorack heading off on that branch), and a yard near I-90 in Brighton (pretty much downtown Boston). It would appear that CSX's intermodal operations only proceed as far east as Worcester, with the shipments going to the docks and other customers by truck.
Going in the Southbound direction, we proceed to Springfield, Mass. Just prior to reaching Springfield, there were some pretty stunning scenery. The words "rural, rustic and romantic" occured to me as we drew by – pity about the continuous welded rail. The B&A follows a river, which is subsequently crossed by the railroad. One could almost mistake the scenery for rural Vermont -- I once saw some very similar scenery when heading north on the Adriondack. There were pools of water (marsh-like) by the side of the RoW, there were unspoilt forest full of trees of all colours, and there were parts where the permanent way was canted in such a way that the entire train leaned towards the river. I thought to myself, "this must be such a maintenance headache" -- but it is also one of the most beautiful journey I had ever taken; the quality of the trip easily surpasses Scotland's West Highland Line. In parts, you were only about a coach width from the water itself, and only some 6' or so above. The experience is nothing short of magical, if you are in the right frame of mind.
At Springfield itself, the railroad topology is somewhat interesting since an overhead road had been built-over the three-leg-fork at Springfield. The Amtrak station is actually situated alongside the ex-B&A line on the east side of the Route of the Vermonter -- which may necessiate a reversal operation if the Vermonter were to call there. We had a slight delay exchanging onto Amtrak property just east of the station -- I have no idea why, since the station is not normally occupied by Amtrak trains. Interestingly, there were one Penn-Central Pullman commuter coach parked outside the station, painted green still with PC lettering intact. In addition, there was a bunch of MHC's coupled to a Heritage Amtrak *coach* (not sleeper) sitting on the other platform, attached to a single Genesis. Judging by the time of the day, I suspect the consist was part of Train #13, "Fast Mail" which would depart for Washington later on the day. The Heritage coach is used presumably as a staff-coach. As far as I know, there are two Amtrak mail trains on the NEC -- both are called "Fast Mail", #12 and #13; The #12 carries passengers and departs from Washington at 3am, whilst train #13 has so far eluded me.
Proceeding southwest from Springfield station, we come to the triple fork. In the distance, you could see the Route of the Lake Shore Limited crawl under various highway overpasses then going over two very tough-looking, cast-iron, NYC-style structures which went over some river. Springfield Tower sits in a desolate state under the highway overpasses and choked between the southwest leg of the wye and the former B&A. As soon as we pass onto the Inland Route proper, we see a purpose-built Amtrak mail center on the left (east) side of the track. It is never short of boxcar activity, and the trucks could directly dock on against the high level platform for efficient transfer. The center looks like it is a success -- obviously only made possible by Amtrak's ownership of the Inland Route as far as Springfield. CSX/Conrail operates freight trains on the Inland Route under trackage rights -- I had witnessed a few of these, and it is indeed fairly busy. However, all traffic appear to be locals serving the not insignificant number of online customers.
We pass through Windsor Locks and Windsor, CT before we reach Hartford, CT. Again this section of the Inland Route is not short of the rural and rustic character -- we would like to walk it someday. Windsor itself is a very English town, as the name suggest. The lampposts are done tastefully in ye olde Englische Victorian style, with street signs to match in cast iron with fancy lettering. In Windsor Locks, the railroad runs alongside
a canal as the name suggest. However, there are no less than 13 (I think!) grade crossings in that town, as a result trains are slowed down to a 25mph crawl. I guess I was kinda disappointed that #145 didn't belt it a bit more through there. I guess the problem of slow railways in Southeast of England has extended itself into towns of English character in the American northeast.
Hartford, CT itself was a big terminal in its days. Unfortunately, the terminal seem to have had better tmies -- half the elevated tracks had been removed, and the platform had temporary wooden fences everywhere giving access to only one platform which handles both up and down trains. To exit, the passengers must climb onto the elevated structure and then descend a bunch of stairs to reach the station hall, which again looks as if it has had better days. Most of the old NYNH&H decorations are still intact (doors, waiting rooms, clock etc) but unfortunately are in a very run-down state. I hope that some historical society does something about it pretty soon because Amtrak looks as if they are ready to replace it with one of those functional, post-Acela style NEC stations, given the amount of "work" they are doing there.
Unfortunately, I can't give any more commentry south of Meriden, CT, since I went to Wesleyan University to see some friends. But all in all, I think that the Amtrak Inland Route is well worth visiting in the fall, not just for a railfan purpose but all serious railfans will sure be thrilled by the prospect of visiting some of the oldest unrestored station infrastructure around and seeing balanced freight and passenger at such key locations as Springfield and Worcester.
--Lexcie
CORRECTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS WELCOME, especially from Phil Nasadowsky!
N-A-S-A-D-O-W-S-K-I :)
It's an I, dude.
The station itself looks brand new, and from the train it seems the architecture was tastefully done in sandstone or some similar imitation material.
IIRC, it's either new or recently restored...
Of course, the other explanation would be that the #142 runs so chronically late that allowing the MBTA train in first usually works -- however, according to the conductor, the #142 is rarely more than 10 mins late by the time it gets to Worcester.
The conductor's a good bullshit artist. I bet the dispatcher isn't a new guy and stuck the MBTA train in first because the Amtrak one is late often enough.
I thought to myself, "this must be such a maintenance headache
Maintenance?!?!? What's that?!?!? They don't call CSX "Chemical Spill eXperts" for nothing...
We had a slight delay exchanging onto Amtrak property just east of the station -- I have no idea why, since the station is not normally occupied by Amtrak trains.
That pesky dispatcher was out to delay you again ;)
Interestingly, there were one Penn-Central Pullman commuter coach parked outside the station, painted green still with PC lettering intact.
And even more interesting, there's a PC coach stuffed down in Penn station in NY that's been sitting there for who knows how long...
However, there are no less than 13 (I think!) grade crossings in that town, as a result trains are slowed down to a 25mph crawl. I guess I was kinda disappointed that #145 didn't belt it a bit more through there.
This is recent. I noticed a Sperry car was working the area a few weeks ago, and I noticed a (S) and [R] pair of signs at one crossing I cross a lot, about a week ago. I've seen even GE hauled consists come through there at around 40ish.
Hartford, CT itself was a big terminal in its days. Unfortunately, the terminal seem to have had better tmies -- half the elevated tracks had been removed, and the platform had temporary wooden fences everywhere giving access to only one platform which handles both up and down trains. To exit, the passengers must climb onto the elevated structure and then descend a bunch of stairs to reach the station hall, which again looks as if it has had better days. Most of the old NYNH&H decorations are still intact (doors, waiting rooms, clock etc) but unfortunately are in a very run-down state. I hope that some historical society does something about it pretty soon because Amtrak looks as if they are ready to replace it with one of those functional, post-Acela style NEC stations, given the amount of "work" they are doing there.
The station is owned by the City of Hartford - the old waiting room is used as a small convention center. The new waiting room is a bus station by day and homeless shelter at night. Most traffic is bus there now. Amtrak maintains the platform level, though. Or should I say, doesn't maintain.
Unfortunately, I can't give any more commentry south of Meriden, CT, since I went to Wesleyan University to see some friends.
Hi Mike!!!!
But all in all, I think that the Amtrak Inland Route is well worth visiting in the fall, not just for a railfan purpose but all serious railfans will sure be thrilled by the prospect of visiting some of the oldest unrestored station infrastructure around
Old? Heh. Those stations are new. A good chunk of the LIRR Oyster Bay line stations are around 20 years older than Hartford is. Most are being restored though - Sea Cliff Avenue in particular looks great.
Train 12 was discontinued starting September 30, 2001. It was replaced by Acela Regional 190 which had formerly run about 30-60 minutes earlier than Train 12 from New York to Boston. It now runs all the way from Washington to Boston, leaving DC at 3 AM. It arrives in NYC 3 minutes later than Train 12 did. A shuttle train, number 490, runs to Springfield. Train 12, went to Springfield starting December 11, 2000 but had gone to Boston before that. If one is willing to dig a little deeper in to their wallet, they can take Acela Express 2150 from Washington to Boston, leave 2 hours later, and only arrive in Boston 10 minutes later.
As for Train 13, I don't think that exists and if it does, it doesn't carry passengers. Its not on the September 30 schedule.
Train #13 does indeed exists. It arrived at DC around noon daily. Because Train #13 and #10 only carry mail, both are not in the passenger schedule, but in the employee schedule. Train #10 leaves DC daily after 7 PM.
Chaohwa
So do you know which is the replacement mail train for #12 after September 30, 2001? I presume #490 doesn't carry mail, and the north mail depot is in Springfield...
Lexcie
I think Train #190 is the train replaces Train #12 between Washington, DC and New Haven. As for the section between New Haven and Springfield, I believe there is a new train number on the employee timetable.
I am interested to look at this employee timetable.
Chaohwa
I looked at the schedule of Train #190. The schedule is similar to that of Train #12. Train #190 may carry several mail cars.
I have to look at the employee timetable to look at the details.
Chaohwa
It's a good line to ride. I used to ride it home whenever I could get the bus connections right. I used to go to UConn which is 40 minutes east of Hartford by Bonanaza bus. When only the Arrow bus ran to UConn, I took it all the way to New Haven and took Metro-North or Amtrak to New York, usually M-N. Going back to UConn was always trickier, because if I missed the last Arrow bus, I would have been stranded in New Haven or Hartford.
The Inland Route is a very nice line and the scenery north of Meriden is stunning, especially in the fall. South of Meriden, not so nice with the junkyards, factories and marshes that the line passes through. But I enjoyed every ride I took on it, except for one where my northbound train was forced into a siding to let a southbound train pass. That's just one problem with single-tracking and that's why Amtrak should bring back double-track on this line. Then they can run more frequent service on the line and it can be more competitve with buses and I-91. I would also like to see high platforms at all the stations, especially Hartford and Springfield, so they can cut dwell times at the stations. And they should run DMU/EMU combo trains so they can have through service to NYC, Philly, DC, and possibly Harrisburg (if they through route the Inland Route with Keystone service like I suggested in another post). Maybe a connection to Bradley Airport. Amtrak should be improving this line, not letting it go bad.
The AM LIRR was severely interrupted by a signal problem in and around Sunnyside Yard, resulting in delays up to one hour or more. Of course there is a silver lining to this cloud. The LIRR jerked around at Jamaica Station for over 30 minutes while trying to decide where my train was going to go. First it was to Hunters Point and LIC. Then it was to LIC. Then it was to LIC with a reverse move to Hunters Pt. and finally it was decided just the straight run to LIC. Since there was no way that I was going to get to work on time, I decided to bite the bullet and take the ride along the Montauk branch. It's still the most interesting ride on the LIRR. This AM was especially interesting since a fresh load of R-142s were in the yard, still on the flatcars, as we passed. If you're going to be late, there's nothing like doing some rail-fanning to help pass the time.
I ended up going to Flatbush Avenue, where I found the IRT platforms to be hopelessly overcrowded. There was no way I was going to get on a 1 or 2 anytime soon. I finally took an M to Fulton/BN, changing to an A for West 4th. Not a pleasant morning.
I stayed on at Jamaica despite being told that there would be 45-60 minutes delays. As it turned out, my train (7:05 from Mineola) was only about 25 minutes late into Penn Station.
I stayed on at Jamaica despite being told that there would be 45-60 minutes delays. As it turned out, my train (7:05 from Mineola) was only about 25 minutes late into Penn Station.
I was on the 6:42 dual-mode from Patchogue, which is supposed to go directly to Penn, but today terminated at Jamaica. By the time we got to Jamaica at about 8:20, which is more than 20 minutes behind schedule, the PA was announcing "subtantial" delays into Penn. I figured that vagueness of that sort wasn't likely to be good and went for the next Flatbush Avenue train. It looks like thousands of other commuters had the same idea.
Police and TA workers were letting people onto the subway for free at Flatbush. Naturally, I didn't see that until after I swiped my pay-per-ride MC.
[Police and TA workers were letting people onto the subway for free at Flatbush. Naturally, I didn't see that until after I swiped my pay-per-ride MC. ]
As we approached Jamaica, they announced on my train that LIRR tickets would be accepted by the Subway
In general, if there is a problem with the LIRR to Penn, they usually allow free passage into the subways if you show them your ticket.
-- Kirk
But if there is a problem with the subway, there is no such arrangement. Unfair!
Do you have any idea of what the nature of the "signal problem" was that wrecked the entire city operation of the LIRR?
In these "troubled times" I wonder about stuff like this. Twenty years ago I would have been listening for reports of men in black cloaks and slouch hats handing around the interlocking with Soviwet-made cameras. :-)
Do you have any idea of what the nature of the "signal problem" was that wrecked the entire city operation of the LIRR?
In these "troubled times" I wonder about stuff like this.
Remember that you're talking about the Long Island Rotten Road. Many things could have caused the huge delays:
A high pollen count in Davenport, Iowa.
Slight irregularities in the orbit of one of Neptune's moons.
Declining prices for tea futures in the Kuala Lumpur futures exchange.
The premature death of Abraham Lincoln's younger son.
You get the idea.
Amtrak knuckle heads doing work hit catenary wire with steel pole and blew up the signals at 3am. Once again Amtrak boneheads mess up.
Amtrak knuckle heads doing work hit catenary wire with steel pole and blew up the signals at 3am. Once again Amtrak boneheads mess up.
Sigh ... how typical.
No doubt part of the government's plan to get more people back to flying on the airlines again :-)
No doubt part of the government's plan to get more people back to flying on the airlines again :-)
Which, by the way, seems to be working. Slowly but surely, airline passenger counts have been increasing over the last week or so. I figured that most of the "I'll never fly again" talk was just that, talk.
>>> I figured that most of the "I'll never fly again" talk was just that, talk. <<<
And that means forget about any upgrading of the nations railways.
Tom
We need the LIRR to GCT connection more than ever!
One thing about the TA vs the LIRR - you rarely if ever see the kind of indecisiveness in making re-routes on the TA. My train arrived at Jamaica at 7:07AM and they debated, changed, re-routed, and opened & closed the doors so many times, we got to LIC after 8:00 AM.
By the way: Despite how late we were, that didn't stop the LIRR crews from stopping the train before entering LIC yard and climb off the train, one by one, so they wouldn't have to walk a few hundred feet. After all - what the hell. We were already late.
I was passing through Jamaica about this time, listening on my scanner and I heard your engineer or conductor arguing with 204 about doing a reverse move once they got to LIC to Hunters Point. Last I heard they were going to allow it, but I guess they changed their mind.
-- Kirk
and whats wrong with warsaw pact cameras, anyways? =)
My train was terminated at Jamaica. I decided to bail on the LIRR and take the subway -- but the crowds trying to get down into the E/J station were huge as well. I hoofed it the 6 blocks up Sutphin to Hillside for the F train and made it into work only about 15 minutes behind schedule.
One of my colleagues stuck with the LIRR into Penn and arrived almost 2 hours later than planned. Was it really that bad, or was he just one of the very unlucky?
CG
Which train was this that went via the old Montauk line, like what SCHEDULED time out of Jamaica, do you know? Or was it just a spontaneous decision by the tower. Where did you see these R142s?
The train was #2735. It leaves Jamaica every AM from #5 track at 7:11 AM. Usually it goes by the Main Line to Hunters Point and then to LIC. This AM it was re-routed.
the r142s were at fresh pond, no?
speaking of freight, spotted the p&w run up towards ct with 5 units (2 cabless ex BNs, just painted) and a long string of graffiti-riffic ballast cars in drag past the BQE construction in woodside. I thought they came south on a tuesday and then north with empties on fridays? perhaps it was just one o' the last (if not the...) run of the season.
The brown P & Ws were in the yard too.
(Since there was no way that I was going to get to work on time, I decided to bite the bullet and take the ride along the Montauk branch.)
The Long Is City Branch just isn't the same without the old diesels making all the old stations without platforms. It was like being on the Hooterville Cannonball.
Yup but the ride to Pixley can still be fun.
So, was it the LIRR's signal system that screwed up, or was it a certain other "railroad" (I use that term really loosely) around Sunnyside who's signal system died *again*??
It would seem that SLAMTRAK dunnit again. Scattered 10-15 minute delays persisted into the PM rush hour.
"jerked around at Jamaica station for over 30 minutes".
It's so funny to hear you talking in that tone. How often are there delays like this on the LIRR? Once a year? And the one little time you have a delay, all of a sudden you're "jerked around".
People on the Queens Blvd corridor deal with garbage EVERY WEEKEND. EVERY RUSH HOUR.
I always knew that you were one of these Long Island guys who took the LIRR to the city everyday, which is why you are so insensitive to the horrors experienced by those who relay on the subways to get to/from the boroughts to Manhattan.
Tell me. When you had trouble at Jamaica, why didn't you take the 'reliable' Queens Blvd line that I have been telling you and everyone about for nearly one year? Because you know it's every bit as bad as I've been saying all along.
Truth is, I'm happy for you. I'm glad you live on Long Island, and you can take a comfortable train to and from work. I'm glad you're in a cushy seat on the LIRR, while I'm on a cattle car in Queens with some undesirable breathing down my neck, or crushing me against a pole.
It's just so interesting to see you in the role of the disgruntled passenger, who seems somewhat less than impressed with "jerked around" service today.
I see what you're saying, but lighten up man. Nothing is stopping you from going to Jamaica Center, paying around 2 bucks or somethin and taking a train from Jamaica to LIC, Hunterspoint, Flatbush or Penn Station. You make a valid point though.
2 bucks eh?
From Jamaica to NYC costs $5.50 peak and $3.75 off peak.
I used the term "Jerked Around" for the reason stated. It seems to me that any decision that takes 30 minutes to make, in that situation, negates the time saved by a correct one or the time that would be lost by a bad one.
Once again, however, we come to the issue of credibility. I can and do document specific incidents when they occur. I gave a train #, a destination and specific times. I cited one example where specific people made a poor choice or more appropriately took too long to make any choice. You - on the other hand - are once again painting in vague and broad generalities. Every weekend? Every rushhour? Please do not insult our intelligence. Cite one specific example where a specific train, at a specific time was held in place for 30 minutes while management tried to decide where to send it. I'm talking about indecision causing the delay, not a derailment or collision etc. Of course you cannot do it because the TA does not work that way.
As for not taking the Queens Blvd line, I thought I had explained that. However, despite the odd chance that you might be able to find your way back to the original post, let me make it easy for you. I said that I opted to do some railfanning since the opportunity presented itself. Besides, I do not punch a time clock.
Now, as for your idiotic statement, "I always knew that you were one of these Long Island guys who took the LIRR to the city everyday, which is why you are so insensitive to the horrors experienced by those who relay on the subways to get to/from the boroughts to Manhattan"
What the hell do you think I do when I get to the city? I take the A train or the D train or the #4 train uptown. Today when I got off at LIC, I didn't have my driver waiting for me. I walked about a half mile to Vernon-Jackson on the #7 and took it to grand central where I transferred for the #4.
As for having some undesirable breathing on your neck, if you don't like it, do what I did. Spend in excess of $200,000 for a suburban home. Spend upwards of $7,000 per year in property taxes. Commute 2 hours in each direction, each day in luxury on the LIRR. You have got some strange views of life, young man.....
What can I say to one of my favorite subtalkers?
You put those lowlife liberals in their place when they came on this board to attack the US after the attacks of Sept 11.
You had the guts to give us a very accurate description of Dinkins, and all he did to this city.
Like I said, I just thought it was funny to see you in the role of disgruntled passenger, questioning the decisions of those who you rely on to get you to work everyday.
p.s.- Half mile to Vernon-Jackson?
What can I say. I wasn't disgruntled about the delay. I was upset by poor supervision. One thing about me, I call it the way I see it. I'd be as angry if it were a TA manager - and just as out-spoken.
"You put those lowlife liberals in their place when they came on this board to attack the US after the attacks of Sept 11."
By the way, I had not intended to mention this but as long as you raised the issue; It would seem that I was correct about one of them. He seems to have crawled back under the rock.
What rock was that?
Just like Cinderella's ugly sisters, you seem to continually want to try on shoes meant for someone elses feet.
Just curious. 'nuff said.
Ooooooooooooo. Great analogy. ;-)
It seems to me that any decision that takes 30 minutes to make, in that situation, negates the time saved by a correct one or the time that would be lost by a bad one.
What would you consider a proper "reaction" time for such situations?
I don't know that there is some exact formula to quote but this is my thinking. LIRR was announcing delays of up to 60 minutes through the affected area. Via the Montauk branch, time to LIC is roughly 30 minutes. Hence, add that time to the 30 minutes sitting on 5 track in Jamaica and you have your 60 minutes. In the meantime, you've had people get on and off the train up to 4 times and have conveyed the message that you are not fully in control.
If on the other hand, you sent the train via the Main Line - the worst that would have happened is it would have arrived an hour late. On the other hand, because it was not using one of the 4 East River Tubes, the delay would have been likely much less protracted. The point is once you wait and second guess yourself for 30 minutes, you've already put yourself in the hole for a half hour even if you made the right choice.
I would have opted to make a choice and live with the consequences. In reality, most people on that train go to Hunters Pt. to connect withthe #7 train. I would have put them all on a Penn Station Bound train stopping at Woodside for the #7 connection. I would have sent the actual train over the Montauk Branch to LIC (Which they did) because that's where the equipment is supposed to end up. The difference is, I had this in my mind before we passed Valley Stream. Of course, I had only one train on my mind.
A total washout for trains to and from Penn Station or even through Harold happens about twice a year. I'd have assumed that the LIRR operations people would have thought of a contingency plan to put in place. I'd assume that holding trains at Jamaica for 30 minutes, while doling out disinformation should not be part of the contingency plan. So, in this case shouldn't there be a fairly quick transition to the contingency plan?
This is the second time in about a month that the LIRR has not been able to handle an emergency in stride. Remember the Syosset derailment? One shudders to think how the LIRR would be able to handle a real emergency. How about a total power failure? The TA tried that during an evening rush hour some 35 years ago. I wonder how they would react today?
I have the Manhattan Bridge Flip Plan. There is a printed contingency plan for most eventualities.
Two things;
1) Don't we wish the "K" train using the Essex St Cutoff was still running.
2) Single 60 ft. cars sure look better Now for expanded service on the "E"F" and "J" and Possible "K"
3) I've told you a million times, "Don't Exagerate!"
Ten percent and twelve and a half percent increases with out stretching platforms.
If not for day to day rush hour, at least for emergency contingencies.
avid
Can the letter "K" even be used? Isn't it politically incorrect? I seem to remember a controversy that arose a few years ago surrounding the circled "K" found on milk containers, and other products found in food stores.
Some "activists" said it was a subliminal message that was being sent by the KKK, in order to recruit new members. Naturally, this picked up some momentum an explanation of the "K" sought.
It turned out that the "K" stood for Kosher.
Trust me, the city would use another letter.
Rubbish!
the "K" was used in the past for trains out of Canarsie to 57th and 6th Ave.
avid
do u guys think that whenever the B Division pick starts the E runs will include trips to 179?
Also what happens to those E trains during the middle of the day that leave Jamaica Center saying not in service? Does the Motorman take it to Jamaica yard and go to lunch or something?
do u guys think that whenever the B Division pick starts the E runs will include trips to 179?
What is a "B division pick"?
And why would the E ever go to 179th St. with the F? Who's going to take care of Jamaica Center on the Queens Blvd. Line?
Railfan Pete
And why answer questions with questions? Wait for someone who knows the answer to post...the answer!
Now, as to THE ANSWERS to the questions that were posted BY THE ORIGINAL POSTER:
The plan, when the V starts, is to run some E service to/from 179th Street to avoid congestion at Jamaica Center.
As for out-of-service E trains at Jamaica Center in the middle of the day, I'd wager they're there more like 9-10 AM (after the AM rush) and layup either on the Queens Boulevard Line in the area of Union Turnpike or in Jamaica Yard.
David
>>What is a "B division pick"?<<
What does it sound like? People who work the B division pick runs. People who work the A division pick jobs. Hell, almost every TA job (up to somewhere in middle management) is a pick. You get preference based on senority.
>>And why would the E ever go to 179th St. with the F? Who's going to take care of Jamaica Center on the Queens Blvd. Line?<<
And why the hell would the "A" go to rockaway Park?!?!? Because it's only 5 peak direction A trains going to rock. pk. Same deal with E to 179th.
In RTO, Train Operators and Conductors get to pick whatever jobs, tours and days off that are available to them every 6 months. Train Service Supervisors and all Dispatchers go through what is called a "preference pick" every 12-18 months. They do not have the same freedoms to select assignments and days off that T/O's and C/R's have, but they have a little leeway to select something that they want.
Deputy Superintendents and above have their assignments, hours and days off assigned. They have no say as to what they get. That's why it helps to either:
1) Be good friends with your boss who makes up your schedule
2) Work really hard and make your presence known
3) Kiss a lot of a**
I found out that I do pick up jobs in the yard or switching from the board but certain dispatchers reroute them to their buds. What a surprise.
>>>>>>>>do u guys think that whenever the B Division pick starts the E runs will include trips to 179?
Guaranteed. The TA has listed runs on the E to 179 St for the AM and PM rush. I believe it's around 4 trains to Manhattan on the AM and 4 trains to 179 St on the PM.
>>>>>>>>Also what happens to those E trains during the middle of the day that leave Jamaica Center saying not in service? Does the Motorman take it to Jamaica yard and go to lunch or something?
Those T/O's are switchmen. They take the train to Jamaica Yard and then perform duties within the Yard. Later, they bring out different trains for the PM rush.
Lots of times those E trains going to the yard after the AM rush are on their way to the car wash, then they'll come right back and lay up north of Parsons/Archer for PM service.
Guaranteed. The TA has listed runs on the E to 179 St for the AM and PM rush. I believe it's around 4 trains to Manhattan on the AM and 4 trains to 179 St on the PM.
I have a friend who lives in Bellerose and is very upset by the upcoming 63rd st. service changes--this will make his day. Is there any chance you could post the schedule? I'd really appreciate it.
Also, will these trains run express or local on Hillside Ave?
Dan
I'm guessing since these are to reduce congestion, express, but I really don't know. I do not work for the TA nor do I have any connections. It would be very inefficient to run these trains to 179 to avoid congestion at Parsons-Archer, only to cause more on Hillside.
That's just my opinion...
It would be very inefficient to run these trains to 179 to avoid congestion at Parsons-Archer, only to cause more on Hillside.
I think Hillside/179th has more turnarround capacity (and four tracks instead of two.) It handled both the (E) and (F) for many years.
:-) Andrew
The F ran express during rush hours. Off hours, it isn't such a big deal since trains are less frequent.
When the V is implemented, the F:E ratio changes in the E's favor, and 3 or 4 E's get rerouted to 179th, should they be distinguished by a Diamond-E ? (not that they have that on their roll signs).
It would be far simpler to use R-46s for those consists. The 179th St terminal for the E is already programmed into the SCUs.
"A" trains headed for Rockaway Pk. do not use diamonds, so don't hold your breath.
This is no congestion to Hillside - it runs at 35% of capacity.
When the F:E ratio changes from 18:12 to 15:15 per hour, the number of trains serving each terminus will remain constant by diverting 3 E's per hour to 179th. Archer can't handle it.
There is an additional four-track lower level beyond 179th St.
Give me a day or two and I'll post the schedules.
I have two questions about the 1/9 bridge over the Harlem River.
1) According to this website, this is a two level drawbridge with the trains on the upper level and Broadway on the lower level. Is this bridge ever raised to let boats go by? If so, about how often?
2) How many lanes does Broadway have when it crosses this bridge?
David
As someone who rides the 1/9 accross the bridge several times a day, I may be able to provide some info:
1) I have never seen the bridge raised, but I'm sure they must atleast test it from time to time. Currently they are doing a major re-painting job on the bridge (I think they are removing old lead paint as the bridge is wrapped in plastic and there are very large vacuum trucks parked on the bridge with tubes leading to the wrapped sections.
2) Broadway is normally (when the construction vehicles related to the painting are not there) 2 lanes in each direction.
Piggo/Bill
Thanks for this info,
David
Broadway is actually 3 lanes in each direction over the bridge.
Is it a Swing Bridge? or a lift Bridge?
It's a lift bridge. In answer to the original query, yes it does occasionally get lifted for boat traffic. It also gets lifted about every two months or so to check the mechanism. When this happens, Transit tries to have a train standing near by on M Track, because it sometimes does not completely close. In those cases, they roll the train onto the bridge very slowly and use the extra weight to force it into place.
Ya know? The 225th Street bridge has never worked right since the day they installed it? The old one it replaced may have been natty, but it worked. :)
How long has it been taking you to go over the bridge now that the 50 Roadblock is in place? I started taking my motorcycle to work as it took me 20 minutes to negotiate traffic to the span, and my conductor reported delays up to an hour on the various bronx surface routes beginning the 12th.
The bridge rises each time a big rig boat comes
a'callin.... and there are drills every so often
which stop traffic, lower gates, and raise bridge.
A preeeeeeeety neat sight to see from 1/9 platform.
There's an interesting history to this bridge. Approximately 1895 a new swing bridge was constructed on the site of the current bridge. In 1906, when the new IRT subway was extended to 242nd Street, there was no way to accommodate the elevated tracks on then eleven year old bridge. Rather than demolish it, it was floated downstream about a mile to become the University Heights Bridge, connecting 207th Street to Fordham Road. The current bridge at that location is a recent rebuild of the old 1895 bridge using the original supports on either side of the Harlem River. A new double deck swing bridge was built in 1906 as a "new" Broadway Bridge. This one lasted until 1962 when the current span was constructed. Interestingly, the 1962 bridge's roadway structure (not towers) was floated into place, just like the 1906 structure was installed. The towers were constructed later.
Yep ... that's correct ... only problem with the "new" bridge is that somewhere, somehow, somebody's tape measure hadn't reached calibration temperature when it was used. That puppy goes up, it does not come DOWN. Fireboats had to be called out often in the summertime to close it and the story about having to roll a train on it isn't a joke. And for all the "re-fits" that have been done since '62, seems none of them really did the trick.
Have they ever considered taking a cutting torch and cutting an inch off each end of the lift section?
Ya think? Heh. So much for logic, eh?
I'm sure there are valid reasons why that wasn't an option. But it would be humorous if it WAS easily done and nobody though of it. But considering how much all those hose-downs, parking a train by it and all the other maneuvers required, there must have been a huge "no way" to the idea, just don't know what the reason was.
Maybe they were afraid someone would put the torch to the wrong spot and, WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!
How long 1 service was disrupted
My recollection is: no more than a week. The job was rushed, and the work went on "around the clock" to minimize disruption. Special buses were used to carry customers from 207th Street to 225th Street using the University Heights Bridge (207-Fordham Road).
So If I'm correct the Bridge should be replaced by 2016
Service was only disrupted on the #1 for 3 days. This was over the Christmas holiday of 1960. NOT 1962! There were other disruptions on weekends lasting into Aug. of 1963. It was not until the fall of 1964 that the bridge was lifted.
Andy ... good info.
Here's some additional info on the Broadway Bridge, including its history, vital stats and a link to pictures of the previous bridge being dismantled in 1960.
The Broadway Bridge, from Steve Anderson's nycroads.com web site.
--Mark
I wake up this morning, and listen on the radio to the reported signaling problems on the LIRR outside Sunnyside, and figure "well, too bad for them." That is, until I make it to the Parkchester train station and missed a southbound express by only 3 minutes (I was outside the station across the street when the train pulled in.) It was 8:28 then. I figure to do a written observation of the surrounding environment and what's happening in it on a notepad (for English class), while I'm waiting for the next train.
That became my only evidence for being late for my 9:30 class. Because for some reason, there were a whole bunch of uptown trains coming and no downtown ones. There was a local, made up of redbirds, but Westchester Master sent it to the yard, which meant that the first train that came in was a) going local, and b) to get sacked with all the passengers. I waited, and behind it was the express, which dusted the other train off at around Elder. But by the time I get to 125th, I have only 20 mins to get to class.
My question: Was there a computer virus, myabe the WTC one, in the LIRR signal system, that spread to the Lex that fouled up the line this morning?
According to the Radio transmissions, an R-142 lost power in the Clark St. Tube southbound.
Maybe the same people who called in bomb scares got into some of the wayside towers.
either that or the pelham line tower wanted you
to do that homework before boarding...:)
I have some questions about subway related tours and other events. I did not make it to the recent tour of the 207th Street Shop, and I was wondering if there will be another tour like this soon. Have there been any tours of this facility in the past? I remember reading, and seeing pictures of, tours of the Westchester Yard and the Coney Island Yard. Are these tours run by the transit museum or another group? Does anyone know if there will be any tours like this next year? Also, I read about two walking tours, I think of subway architecture, on the Transit Museum website. I was not able to go to these tours either (I was in NYC in August, so I missed both by a month). Is this kind of tour held often? Thanks in advance for any info.
David
NYD-ERA had planned a tour of the Newark City Subway and the Newark Airport monorail for the Thanksgiving Day weekend. However, given the recent terrorist acts, we don't think the Port Authority will give us permission to tour the Monorail facilities, or that NJ Transit will let us into the new Newark City Subway shop. Of course, there's no harm in our asking, right? :-)
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Does the NYD-ERA have a website?
Unfortunately, neither NYD, nor its parent, ERA, has a website. I don't have the time or the artistic ability to do one, and though loads of people have volunteered to set one up for us, nobody has done it, and there are questions as to who would maintain it if one were set up. We have a commitment from one of our members for webspace, but nothing with which to fill it.
This question comes up every few months here on the board. I wish I had a more positive answer.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
David - contact me via email. I may be able to arrange for some assistance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Check this site's coming events section for this type of thing.
You'll see notices of ERA, Transit Museum & private field trips.
BTW, The ERA had a trip to Branford's Autumn in NY this past Sat.
Also look for a M-N Croton-Harmon "Open House" this month.
And, when you are planning a visit to the City try to arrange it when the UTC or ERA have their monthly meetings in Manhattan.
Mr t
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Wow! Great shots!! Thanks trevor!
Chuck Greene
Nice pix! I like the third one the most.
Very nice
When did you take them?
Robert
These were taken Sunday evening. Thank You All!
Trevor Logan
I wish I can do that better, nice job Trevor!
You Can! Just practice, practice, practice! And have the eye, compose your photos before you taken then, don't just aim and shoot!
Trevor Logan
All three suitable for the 2003 calendar. Nice!
Does anyone know if, with the expansion plans for stations shared by red and brown lines, there has been any attempt to expand subway (rather than elevated service) from south of Armitage to north of Addison? Although this would not alleviate the need for longer stations (which, for obvious reasons, affects some residents), it would seem that, with the installation of elevators for ADA compatibility, now would be the time to plan for multilevel stations (at Belmont and Fullerton) for transfers between subway (red line) and elevated (brown/purple lines).
The argument for this is that it would eliminate the crossing of brown and red line trains between Belmont and Addison (red line) or Southport (brown line) stations. I say argument, but I don't know that anyone has or will make a case for such a proposal. To me, it seems not necessary per se, but at least inevitable, as a way of reducing crossings between busy rush-hour trains. One side effect in neighbors' favor would be that subways are less disruptive, with both less noise and less invasion of privacy--and it is the busier line that could be continued as a subway.
In general, it seems that subway expansion is a viable option for establishment of express service, and, at least with regard to the blue line to O'Hare, there has of late been an interest in such service. In part, I lobby for it despite the expense, because in the Chicago system the subways consistently seem to operate at higher speeds than both the elevated and expressway-median portions of the system.
There is no plan for the subway proposal you mention. The simpler and far less costly option of building a flying junction at Clark Junction (where the Brown Line branches off just south of Addison) would alleviate the same bottleneck and would not require construction of a subway.
The current schemes for expanding the CTA rail system are as follows, in order of what's likely to get done first:
Extending the Orange Line south to Ford City from Midway (some land aquisition has already begun)
Dedicated express trains to both O'Hare and Midway (recently proposed, now under study)
Possible new Crosstown "L" route that connects O'Hare and Midway via Cicero Avenue (on Mayor Daley's wish list)
Extending the Red Line from 95th south and east to Stony Island Avenue (the ROW already exists, but not formal proposal has been made)
Extending the Yellow Line from Dempster to Northbrook Court (on a few people's wish lists, but no formal proposal)
Out of all of these, I'd say the Orange Line extension to Ford City is probably the only one likely to happen within the next ten years or so. The airport express trains and the crosstown route may be dependent on what happens in regards to expansion of O'Hare, which is anybody's guess.
...in the Chicago system the subways consistently seem to operate at higher speeds than both the elevated and expressway-median portions of the system.
This isn't really true. The maximum speed you'll typically find a CTA train going is about 55 MPH. This can occur in the subway, in a highway median, on the elevated, or at grade. The subway probably only seems faster because it's so much louder.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Definitely faster than in New York, sad to day. And much, much louder.
Thanks for your thorough reply. I think there is a point that you've glossed over that deserves reiteration: Although the listed proposals are under consideration, aren't there other real (and possibly even profitable) ideas for development? For example, one gap where I think a subway could be considered is Chicago Avenue from Streeterville west, turning northwest on Grand Avenue. If you've ridden the Chicago Avenue bus at rush hour, you know that there is business, and often there's overwhelming business such that the bus driver can't collect fares! This seems to be a waste of valuable income, as well as a discouragement to a niche that is growing with the redevelopment of Chicago's Near West and Northwest Sides.) I'm somewhat inclined to believe that development within the city would be more profitable than extensions of existing lines outside of the city or on the fringes of the city, which would compete with (and probably be slower than) Metra's commuter trains and would likely draw revenue from bus transfers (rather than full fares).
The flying junction seems like something that ought to be under consideration (especially if it is something less costly, less of a major capital improvement); wouldn't this be a major boon to the red line? Not to say, why don't they do these things?--it's well known that funding is limited--but isn't there currently a negative impact in delays as a result of the crossing?
If you have millions and want to improve access to the north side, the existing tracks and put in a flyover at Clark jct.
If you have billions, do the above and put a subway going up Sheridan or Clark. A subway under Sheridan to Lawrence, then west to the Ravenswood is in the mega hopeful 21st century transit plans.
A very busy time as there have been several changes in the fleet assigned to Mattapan.
First, 3263, rehabbed in record time, has returned to Mattapan where the finishing touches are being applied. As has been the case with every rebuild so far, this one has some distinguishing features. The (correct) large exterior numerals have given way to the smaller ones used on 3265, though the meeting piont of the gream and silver at the roofline follows the correct curve as on 3260 and 3268. There is no number on the left side of the car, possibly a mistake to be corrected later. The Circle-T logo has been replaced with an up-to-date version of the MTA map decal from the early 1950s, bearing the words Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority in the outer border. The map of towns served has expanded to include Quincy and Braintree, and the routes are shown in their present day state, including the various extensions and relocations which opened since the original map was done. The car should begin its burn-in testing soon.
Also returning to Mattapan after an absense of almost three decades is Dallas Car 3332, now equipped as a Wire Car. It sits on the ramp track behind Type 3 Plow 5164.
Car 3238 has been spirited away to Riverside to enter the rebuild program.
3262, thought to be the next rehab candidate after a long stint out of service, has been returned to the active fleet and remains a very marginal car.
3234 continues to be very noisy and retains its year old control "plug".
3254 as mentioned in my last report, got rehabbed trucks and has improved markedly, though it also now plugs.
Several cars continue to exhibit rough wheel surfaces, dragging brake shoes, inoperative passenger chimes, and other defects which reduce their comfort level significantly.
The fleet as of 10/1/01 consists of:
In Service:
Green: 3230, 3232, 3234, 3254, 3262
Orange: 3260, 3265, 3268
Out of Service:
Orange: 3263 (finishing touches and testing)
In Rebuild: 3087 (slowed because of canvas roof work), 3238
Work Cars: 3332 (wire car), 5164 (snow plow)
Service is back to normal (non-summer) schedule with six cars at rush hour, five mid afternoons, three midday and Saturdays, two nights and Sundays.
...and that's the latest news from the last bastion of air-electric PCCs.
Thanks for the update, Gerry....I'll be sure to look out for #3263, since it will probably enter revenue service soon. By the way, if you would ever like to go railfanning, feel free to e-mail me privately. -Nick
Does anyone have any photos of the BMT damages. Perhaps our MTA friends) who gave us the IRT photos can send us some BMT pix.
I don't think the BMT tunnel got damaged.
Yes it did, but not even close to the degree that the IRT got.
From what I heard an equipment room and a corridor leading to the S/B platform at Cortlandt BMT were damaged by pieces falling from 2WTC.
wayne
That IRT tunnel damage is mind-boggling. Can you imagine the amout of force needed to bend one of those I-beams like that?
From what I've heard, Damage in the BMT tunnels were not as bad as the IRT tunnels. No collapsed ceilings or alot of dust. However some of the buildings upstairs of the BMT are very shaky. Until the buildings are sturdy or the shaky buildings are taken down, There will be no servive.
From what I've heard, Damage in the BMT tunnels were not as bad as the IRT tunnels. No collapsed ceilings or alot of dust. However some of the buildings upstairs of the BMT are very shaky. Until the buildings are sturdy or the shaky buildings are taken down, There will be no servive.
I presume you mean the two smaller WTC buildings to the east of the towers (WTC 3 and 5, IIRC). They're already being removed. No other buildings are "shaky."
Until they are taken down, no service.
What I.R.T. photos ? where ?
Right here on nycsubway.org of course ...
Go here: http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/wtc-damage/
I was studying the architecture of the World Trade Center And I got this thought.When the first bombing occured and the Path station was damaged,was the Cortland Street station damaged also(the 1 and 9 station is above the Path square)?And on a non related topic what happened on the LIRR?
The 1 and 9 tunnel was extensively damaged between Chambers Street and Rector Street, including the Cortlandt St. Station. The tunnel is caved in and debris from the towers' collapse punctured the tunnel ceiling. It will be a long time (years?) before it is back in service. The N/R tunnel one block is damaged but not nearly as bad. The E train terminal and adjacent A/C line had little damage but the station is closed to keep pedestrians out.
The LIRR has had no physical impact since its closest stations at Penn and Flatbush are each about 3 miles away. On Sept 11 LIRR service was disrupted as thousands of people fled Manhattan, but the service was back to normal schedules the same night. LIRR customers who use Flatbush Avenue terminal have had major changes to their connecting subway services.
Simply put, The WTC station on the #1 was damaged. Depending on who tells you the station tunnel collapsed for some or all of the station. And there was a pocture in the News last week that a beam from the tower did get into the tunnel. The PATH seems to be not damaged too much. But there is a flood in parts of the station and the tunnel under the Hudson. At least there is fresh water. Runoff from broken mains and fire hoses. There is also a danger that the "bathtub". The foundation of the WTC is breeched. If this is the case, there is a danger if it breaks, The Hudson River will reclaim the land that was built from landfill some 35 years ago. Also there is a danger that the rush of water would run into the subways and PATH line. Maybe it would not flood the subways. But it would make the task of reopening it a little longer. And estimates state that it will take at least 3 years for the IRT to reopen. The BMT in maybe 6 months. Both I think would be in the best-case.
This morning I think some of the gremlins who have been calling in false bomb scares, got into some towers and played havic.
So, if it will take 3 years to re-open the 1/9 line below Chambers St, and 6 months for the N/R to resume service, how long would it be for the PATH station to re-open? It is the deepest of all the stations (4-5 stories below the ground, I believe), so I'm guessing that it'll be at least 3-4 years before it reopens.
Quick question: Since the current station is below foundation of the former WTC (I remember from when it was being built in the 60s), and the old Hudson Terminal was east of this, is there any chance of having that station reopened? Since the Millenium Hotel may not survive do to structural damage, I think that the Hudson Terminal station should be reopened/rebuilt.
Living in Brooklyn for the past 9 months (yes, my handle says "Bayonne" but I moved) and working in NJ, I never realized how easy my commute once was. Traveling to WTC to take the PATH was so simple and quick that I (like many others) took it for granted. Today, my commute is now 1.5 to 2 hrs each way to/from NJ. But for safety, I'd travel forever. And I (and I hope like many others) don't complain or take my commute for granted. As long as I arrive safe, that's all that matters.
Quick question: Since the current station is below foundation of the former WTC (I remember from when it was being built in the 60s), and the old Hudson Terminal was east of this, is there any chance of having that station reopened? Since the Millenium Hotel may not survive do to structural damage, I think that the Hudson Terminal station should be reopened/rebuilt.
The former Hudson Terminal station was more or less subsumed into a truck loading area for the WTC. I don't know if the station area was destroyed, but even if it wasn't, it's probably no longer suitable for PATH use.
From what I've heard, the Millenium hotel did not suffer significant structural damage. It looks as if some repairs are in progress.
I'd think the PATH station will take longer. If it'll ever be reopened at all. If the old PATH station will be rebuilt and reopened. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But it will take a while before the site upstairs is cleared and the remaining buildings are either leveled or secured. And that will take at least a year. And that's assuming the "bathtub" can be fixed and doesn't collapse.
But, if that is not fixed, then we have to see if some form of subway/rail service from NJ can be created to service lower Manhattan (whenever that is... 1,2,3 years). PATH trains handled 200,000 people a day during the week (can someone verify this?) to WTC. Whatever the number, it was high. Not restoring service (or replacing it) could prove to be devasting for NJ commuters to lower Manhattan.
I'm guessing that it'll be at least 3-4 years before it reopens.
Does anybody have a figure on how long it took the H&M to build the whole system? It's a good guage of progress.
http://community-2.webtv.net/SheilaSampo/OLDSUBWAYSYSTEMSpre/index.html
Look under Oldark.
Well today I finally got a chance, and got up the nerve to be in Manhattan most of the day, and be near "Ground Zero". When I left this morning I was planning on taking the LIRR, but after hearing reports of hour delays, cancellations because of "signal trouble" in LIC I opted for the N21 bus to the 7 train. At all went pretty well, with some additional crowding on the 7. I waited 15 minutes for a downtown 6 at 42nd. When it came it was really really packed, and was skipping stops after 14th so I waited for the next one right behind.
I got off at Canal street, and walked around Chinatown. I was very dismayed and angered at alot, and I mean ALOT of photshops selling photos of the WTC when it was on fire. That is sick. They should be arrested for selling those photos. I also saw many of this going on East Broadway, with photos of the flaming towers all over the place.
Really annoyed with alot of the Chinatown merchants, they really have went too far this time. I didn't say anything but boy did I feel like it. Am I wrong to feel this way?
AFter Chinatown I walked down to Park Row. By J&R music world and south of there it was all dusty and smelled like steel and fire. Plenty of gas masks abound. I walked along Broadway to the Broadway-Nassau station, at several intersections you could look down the street, and see the wreckage. It looks worse than on TV. The debris field is HUGE, the destruction so severe. You could fit a football field or two in there. There were alot of people stopping and taking pictures, even though the cops tried to get people moving. Memorials were all over the place. It was very busy though with tourists, and alot of places had opened though J&R was still closed and cleaning up.From one of the streets I can see Borders, believe it or not it's still standing, I can see the Borders sign from there. But that building is mostly charred and will come down. It's amazing that One Liberty survived. From walking around the dust cloud ctopped at around City hall, and did not make it to Chinatown. Still Chinatown is a mess, some roads are open but the southern and eastern parts still have no phone service.
I spent the rest of the day on the East Side and Midtown, things were more normal there. After the WTC disaster I don't like going to LOWER Manhattan, there's just a feeling of disaster in the air and Chinatown just isn't the same. And seeing Ground Zero today, I got some closure I needed, but the memorials and missing posters will always haunt me.
What's really surprising is how much ordinary life continues in lower Manhattan considering what happened. The closed-off zone is actually a lot smaller than one might expect (Remember the partial crane collapse on the Conde Nast building a couple of years ago, that closed off a sizeable chunk of Midtown for over a week? That was much more disruptive). It looks like most offices and other businesses outside the closed zone have resumed operations. The sidewalks are as crowded as ever during the day, and of course the subway is running with less overall disruption than anyone would have imagined. If there's anything fortunate about the WTC collapse, it's that the towers fell vertically with a surprisingly small debris area.
By the way, speaking of the "missing" posters, I noted with some amusement that the ones for Dr. Sneha Ann Philip now make it clear that the sexy sawbones disappeared before the disaster :-)
> You could fit a football field or two in there.
14 football fields could fit in the 16 acre WTC bathtub, if my math is correct...
I won’t make that trip anything soon. Too many memories to bear with at this time.
Paul
And that's only between West St. and the IRT! There are another four former city blocks between there and Church St where WTC-4 and WTC-5 stand/stood.
Think visiting lower Manhattan is tough? Try working down here.
Yeah I could hardly tolerate the dust and smoke and I was only down there for 15 minutes or so. I thought to myself how hard it would be to work down there, especially without gas masks.
Hi,
I am trying to find some subway artwork to fill my atlanta home walls... anyone know where I can find some? framed or posters are fine...
Thanks!
Allen "Flatbush"
Dear Allen,
Call the NY Transit Museum Gift Shop at Grand Central Station.
They may have some posters that fit the bill!
Thank you... my mother will have to make a trip over there for me or i will not continue to be her tech support person! :)
btw i ordered some of your shirts today, i hope they fit!
I've observed some of the equipment assignments on the B division due to the Sept. 11 events. I'd like to post what I've seen in the last week, as well as some questions I have about what's going on. I normally can only see the Queens Blvd. line in my daily travels, so I haven't seen the M or W lines at all. I know that there have been other postings on this subject, so please forgive me if I'm asking some redundant questions.
E train: I only have seen R46s. Any R32s running? I've noticed all SB R46 E trains with an "E 8 Avenue" static sign on the electronic destination sign display. I assume this is because "Canal Street" cannot be displayed and that obviously "World Trade Center" should not be displayed.
Q circle train (to Forest Hills): Only have seen R32s. Any R68s?
Q diamond train - what's running on it?
J train: Have only seen R40M/R42s. Are there enough 60 footers to cover the new route to 95th Street, or any other types assigned? Obviously no 75 footers can use this route as used to run on the R.
M: what's running on it?
W: what's running on it?
And, BTW, am I the only person who can remember that when the Queens Blvd. line was first linked to the BMT in 1955, the Brighton Local (today's Q route) was the first BMT line to go to Forest Hills. Since then it's been the 4th Ave. Local (RR), EE, N, and then R prior to Sept. 11.
Q diamond train - what's running on it? Slant 40's and 68's.
M: what's running on it? Mostly slant 40's with some 40M's and 42's.
W: what's running on it? 68's and 68A's.
>>>>>>>>And, BTW, am I the only person who can remember that when the Queens Blvd. line...........
Heck no. There are guys here who could describe the sandhogs that built the sucker.
R-68 and R-68A cars are also riding to Queens via the (Q). Mostly it is a split with that and the R-32's since it has the R crews and the Q crews.
Here are the following car assignment that is in effect as of 10/3/01 since 9/15
R40S and R68 on the Q express
68s and R32 on the Q local
R40S and some R42 on the M
R40 and R42 on the J
R68 and R68A on the W
There are report of R32 on the J in the past. But I'm not sure if that was the really case.
I've seen 68A's on both Q's.
There were no Slant R-40s on the J as of September 25. Unless thngs have changed there are only mixed R-40M/42s.
The summary again:
A: R-32, R-38, R-44
B: R-68
C: R-32, R-38
D: R-68
E: R-32, R-46 (last report roughly 60-40 in favor of 46s)
F: R-46
G: R-46
J: R-40M/42
L: R-40, R-40M/42
M: R-40, R-40M/42
Q Circle: R-32, R-68, R-68A (were 2 R-46s on 9/23 at least; rest was about 50/30/20 32s-68s & 68As.)
Q Diamond: R-40, R-68, R-68A (Was not running weekend I was there but all R-40s until then. Reported to be a growing number of 68s & 68As since 9/25).
S (Rock Pk): R-44
S (Franklin): R-68
S (6 Ave.): R-32
S (Grand): R-46
W: R-68, R-68A (have seen shots of at least 1 or 2 Slant R-40s but very rare).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
In Case anyone was interested, there was a slant R40 on the Q Local this morning. It was manhattan bound when I saw it just after 6:00am.
I didn't get the car number as due to my south bound train arriving at the same time
Charles
Steve was correct about R-142s being at Fresh Pond.
Cars 6556-60 were delivered tonight with diesels doing the towing.
There should be another delivery in the works? We'll see tomorrow.
-Stef
Stef:
Still no 6546-6550?
Also, the first batch of 7500-series R-142As should be around by now.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
Nothing to report on 6546-50, but 6726-30 have just arrived.
-Stef
These units arrived to 180th Street on 10/2/2001..
Peace!
DaShawn
Stef:
That was before I read 272387 above:=)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Voices from Ground Zero
The Learning Channel
Oct 4, 2001
9:00 PM ET
12:00 Mid ET
Voices From Ground Zero tracks the evolution of the World Trade Center tragedy in New York through the eyes and the voices of people at the scene. Viewers will follow the unfolding events along with a policeman, a fireman and an ems worker who were among the first to arrive at groundzero. And we'll be out on the streets as thousands of New Yorkers stop stunned in their tracks, staring up at the burning towers.
Following a ticking clock, 24 Hours at Ground Zero begins with the barrage of attacks over the first critical hours, then focuses on search and rescue efforts through the afternoon, that first night and ends with sunrise over New York the following morning. But always, we see this titanic tragedy from eye-level, along with the people who lived through it.
The spine of our story concentrates on the rescue workers who, like most heroes, selflessly throw themselves into mortal danger to help the thousands of potential victims at the scene. And we'll see the fear, the grief and the confusion as New Yorkers all across the city attempt to come to grips with the magnitude of the disaster and the totality of the loss. The footage is extraordinary - a street-level view of a high-rise disaster. For instance, we'll see a tidal wave of ash and debris - caused by the collapse of the second tower - rolling through the canyons of New York City streets -- as people rush for cover anyplace they can find it.
Source: http://tlc.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=553899000
http://www.truthinmedia.org/
Enjoy...
Looks like the same place that Bin Laden gets his "facts from.
Alan Glick
Yeap...
and so what?
its a legitimate news source.
A legitimate news source woulnd't blame millionaire Bin Laden's hatred of the US on the "fact" that we "impoverish" the third world. We do more to help the Arab poor than do most Arab millionaires and governments.
Alan Glick
your idea of "facts" are the same as Railfan Pete's
Too bad...until he talks about how the "darker races" are "dumbing down america" he almost had my attention...
Coming to memory about the movie was there ever a "Money Train" now it is all done by armored car if i am not mistaken? If there was a Money Train when was it used in service and why was it taken OOS?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Yes, there was (is?) a Money Train. Before the Metrocards, there was a huge amount of cash and tokens moving around. Apparently, for the smaller amounts these days, armored cars make more sense. It was running as recently as the summer, and here are 3 pictures of it:
one two three.
PATH used regular out-of-service trains for their collections, but they are now using in-service trains - I was on a NWK/33rd train the other morning and was surprised when they wheeled the hopper full of coins onto the train.
It is very unusual to have an in-service passenger train do double duty as a revenue train. Were there guys wearing bullet-proof vests and carrying guns aboard? There's always at least one when an
MVM is serviced.
i recall once seeing about a dozen guys get on with bags of tokens and 38s, and then sit on the bags - this was a passenger run on queens blvd. there were 2 or 3 standing, without bags, and 2 cops to boot. that was one odd ride...
Were there guys wearing bullet-proof vests and carrying guns aboard?
Two PATH employees and one PAPD officer. The officer was armed, but I don't think the PATH folks were. It was hard to get a look without being obvious as this was at Christopher St. and the train was packed to bursting.
The last I heard, Last friday night, The trains are still running. Maybe after 9/11 they were curtailed. But never taken out of service altogether. I don't know what you've heard.
I saw the revenue car aka the Money Train two weeks ago at 53rd and Lexington Ave on the E/F at around 10pm.It's easy to identify, especially when the fleet of armed guards comes pouring out of its open door.
Some revenue collection is done by armored car. Saw a pick-up over the weekend at 7th Ave on the Q/Q. Again the armed guards and the big trucks parked outside of the station wher pick up is being done is usually a give-away sign.
I notice that some station are always seem to be armored car pickups while other seem to be revenue car, but I could be wrong.
The TA has bought more armored cars (they are parked all over the sidewalk at Jay Street half the time). They were suspose to stop running the money train but she is still on the rails but a lot of pickups are going to the armored cars.
Saw commercial on Yankee game last night, but couldn't figure out what
subway system it was shot in. Looked like something European...
Barcelona, Spain
Thanks, and I've been there...
A man slit a driver's throat in Tenn. The bus ran off the road.
Check CNN for details. All Greyhound service has been suspended.
Chuck Greene
According to a report on CNN at 9 AM. ---6 confirmed dead, possible 6 more fatalities, several injuries. Happened near Manchester TN on an Interstate Highway. Road closed e/b, long delays w/b. Driver in critical condition at a hospital.
Service to be suspended SYSTEM-WIDE until it can be determined if this is the act of one mentally deranged passenger rather than something more sinister. Let's hope not.
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN THIS WORLD?
More good news for Amtrak although I am getting concearned as tragety seems to be cycling through the transport industry. On the other hand, Amtrak sort of already HAD its accident. It was on 9/11, but nobody seemed to notice thank God. One of the long haul trains slammed into the back of a UP freight that had not cleared the main line. A brand new P42-9DC derailed and caught fire, but only 6 passengers were injured. The NYTimes had a picture, but no article. Talk about dodging a bullet.
God I hope no one blows up a train. That would seriously suck.
Actually, they had 2 derailments that week, and BNSF is pissed at them over rule violations.
Hey Mike - another benifit of electrification - if anyone hijacks a train, they can just turn the power off =)
This bus thing seems to be an isolated incedent.
For the NYT story, click here.
Deraillers can protect trains and if there's time, 50 or so ore cars conveniently parked. Difference is, you USUALLY survive a trainwreck with bumps and bruises ... beats the odds on other conveyances. Last time I flew was 1974. Don't miss it.
Deaths per passenger mile is about the same on train bus and plane.
That's what the staticians say. I beg to differ.
Never said it was based on THAT ... I just LIKE the train. Whether I ride in the cab or in the back with the geese, it's a delight. Where else can you walk the aisles, take in PLEASANT conversation with complete strangers and kibbitz? It's all in the attitude and the pace I s'pose ... but a long distance train is like a vacation unto itself.
Is that counting just Amtrak or rail travel nation wide? There are a hell of a lot of passenger miles made on SEPTA, NJT, MNRR, LIRR, METRA and the MTBA and I can't remember the last commuter RR fatality.
I think all rail. There are also many City buses all over (much more than rail) and very few passenger fatalitys.
I think all rail. There are also many City buses all over (much more than rail) and very few passenger(some getting hit by a bus or train dosen't count) fatalitys.
Except the French TGV system, which, if my information is correct, has not had a single passenger fatality due to a train wreck in the entire 20+ years it's been running. This even includes a couple cases in which trains derailed at high speed. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record on this subject, but this is the rail system we need to be emulating.
More information about the TGV's safety record
-- David
Chicago, IL
Broken record? More like an echo of what a lot of us are thinking! An American TGV would be wonderful. Keep repeating yourself until it gets built.
Altough you may have to keep repeating for fifty years...
Mark
Derails work at low speed!!
They tried it on that runway a few months ago and at 40mph she just flew right over it and kept going.
Depends on the type of derail. Motorized point derails are guarenteed to derail just about anything.
Thank ya! Saved me a post. :)
Take that bastard and shoot him on the spot...no appeals,nothing...this maddness must be stoped.
No need to... he's one of the six fatalities. Apparently a lone act of lunacy, btw - not connected in any way with recent events.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But is is OK to attack someone on a bus???!!!
Mike, I think you had better think more before you post reponses like that.
I never said it was ok to attack someone on a bus. Where did I said it was ok to attack someone on a bus? Please use quotes "".
Ok - you asked for it.
"More good news for Amtrak although I am getting concearned as tragety seems to be cycling through the transport industry. "
Why would someone attacking on a bus be good news for Amtrak?
Because it makes Bus travel look less appealing to the general public so less people will be inclined to take the bus. Trains are a strong substitute for busses and trains will hopefully attract some bus customers. The nationwide delay will also make trains look more attractive and hopefully people will realize that road travel is far more risky than train travel. Nowhere, like you said, did I condone or support attacks on buses. I pointed the net positive effect on the rail industry.
>>> Why would someone attacking on a bus be good news for Amtrak? <<<
It certainly switched some trips from bus to rail.
I had intended to take a Greyhound from Los Angeles to Riverside (about 60 miles) at 11:00 A.M. (arriving at 12:20 P.M.) on Wednesday for a 1:30 P.M. appointment. Because the system was shut down, I had to catch a Metrolink commuter train at 6:49 A.M. (the last train of the day) which got to Riverside at 8:03 A.M. The train ride was pleasant enough, but the scheduling was ridiculous.
BTW there was no return train available. The return trip on five local buses through three counties took six hours from 3:00-9:00 P.M.
Tom
judging from the sketchy people that usualy ride greyhound, i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a terrorist thing.
Now now ... we ALL know where Heypaul was this morning. :)
Apparently, the FBI has decided it wasn't terrorist-related, even though the alleged slasher may have carried a Serbian passport. Anyway, Greyhound service is scheduled to resume at 1 p.m. EDT.
Everyday I ride home on the Market Frankford Line and I keep thinking that the A/B station skipping system could be made to work better. As it stands, out of twelve stations on the north branch of the line, an A or B train only skips three stations. I think it might be a good idea to make every station between Spring Garden and Margaret-Orthodox into an A or B stop, maybe with one all-trains-stop station somewhere along the middle of the line. I think this would speed up the rush hour commute.
Also, A/B trains only run for a very short time. They return to all-stop service at 5:30 when the trains are still crowded with rush hour commuters. I'd think extendeding A/B service to at least 6:00 would make a lot of sense.
Any thoughts? I know there are imperfections in my ideas. Criticism will help refine them, so negative comments are welcome, too.
Mark
The A/B system really is a mess.
I am dependent on A trains to take me to 63rd St, but it seems to me that more B trains run than A's.
I'd be lying if I said I thought SEPTA was really looking into this whole thing. I do ride the Frankford El but not nearly as often as I do the Market St. El (for the simple reason that that's where I live) and I see that stations starting at Berks(ugh!) to about Tioga should be A/B'ed. Erie-Torresdale and Allegheny look like they get enough riders but al others should be A/B'ed. I don't know why 56th St. on the Market St. side isn't A/B'ed.
You know, it always seems to me that there are a lot more B trains than A. I thought I was the only one noticing that.
On the Frankford side a mojority of passengers seem to stay on until the end of the line. A true express train is what is needed, but as long as there are only two tracks, the most should be made of the A/B system, and that is not being done now. I'd go so far as to make Spring Garden and Girard A or B. There should definitely be at least one all-trains stop midway so people can switch trains if they have
to.
Happily Berks is being rebuilt as we speak. I always thought that was the worst active station I've ever seen anywhere!
Mark
Happily Berks is being rebuilt as we speak. I always thought that was the worst active station I've ever seen anywhere!
It was pretty terible. Berks, Huntington, and Church are all being rehabbed now. All three stations looked on the verge of complete collapse before the renovations started. They are the last three stations to be redone on the Frankford, besides the Terminal. That line is really looking great these days.
Speaking of which, the Frankford Terminal is truly a sight to behold right now. I highly recommend a visit to anyone in the area. The constuction is in full swing - the area is completely torn up, and a lot of the concrete for the new terminal building is up already.
I've been watching it since construction began. I got to see the big hole that was excavated, then the bases of the piles before the concrete was poured, and the steel meshwork of the piles themselves before they were encased in concrete. I wish I'd taken photos of all that. It still looks pretty neat, with the platform that will hold the track being built atop the concrete piles. The whole thing will look so different from the old Victorian-industrial steel-and-rivet look of the old structure, more like MARTA than SEPTA.
I hope that the Market elevated structure in West Philly gets as good a makeover when it's time comes.
Also, I hope Kensington can experience the same kind of renewal as the elevated line that runs through it.
Mark
I hope SETPA runs out of money as those old victorial steel structures need to be preserved.
Good point. In its current state of decay its easy to forget not only the historic value of the old structure but the unique beauty of the old styles as well. I just wish someone had decided to value it before it got into such a neglected state.
Mark
Question Fellas: Which branch of the Market-Frankford Line has heavier ridership?? The East corridor or the Western one???
I don't have concrete numbers to support me, but I rode the line daily up until two months ago and it looks no no fewer people ride to Frankford than to 69th St.
Bear in mind that both temrinals serves as multimodal transit hubs for SEPTA. At Frankford, you can transfer to a bus that will take you to pretty much anywhere in the Northeast or northern suburbs. 69th St connects you to all the suburban light rail lines as well as virtually all buses serving Delaware and Chester counties and points south and west. In addition, the area along the El are very well populated and during the rush hour, most stations have a fair enough amount of riders to jusitfy their existence.
Very true. I should also be thankful that I have a train at all, as there are bigger cities that don't have any rail at all.
When I was there in June, it was every other train was A. It starts quite early, about 3:30 PM.
The A/B starts early enough in the afternoon, but it doesn't run late enough. They stop at 5:30 when trains are still packed.
Mark
According to the schedule on Septa.org, the A and B's alternate. 5:30 is early to end, but the real problem is that the service drops off then. There is only a train every 7-8 and soon 10 minutes! That's terrible for that time of day. If they were still running A/B, that would be only every 14-16 min each and better not hold dinner if you're one of the few people unlucky enough to go from an A to a B station!
Since the MFel has OPTO, it wouldn't cost so much more to provide decent 3-4 min headways on their heavy rail lines in peak time. And that's something that a lot of riders would benefit from and that could be marketed easily.
Don't be surprised to see the A/B get watered down even more, especially as the A/B stations lose their significance. Once upon a time 2nd, 34th, and others were A/B stations and public complaints got them changed to all stop. Since many of the riders now go to the extremities of the line, especially on the Frankford side (in college, almost 25 years ago, a couple of classmates and I did some of our own ridership analysis which showed that over 70% of Frankford El riders were going to the last two stops, Margaret-Orthodox and the terminal, and I would bet that it's at least that high today), the value of A/B gets lost.
Skip-stop operation is used to maximize the benefits of a fixed fleet. The quicker trains can make a circuit, the shorter headways can be without adding more trains. The problem becomes one of how much time is actually saved by not making certain stops. Even at some of the all-stop stations, the trains pause barely long enough to cycle the doors on some runs (2nd St being an example). With the number of stations involved at a bare minimum and the hours of service as short as possible, it's no wonder that SEPTA's brand of A/B service continues to unimpress.
Even good old successful PATCO has drastically reduced the number of skip-stop and express-type trains, for much the same rationale (there is but one express in the PM peak followed by one Woodcrest short turn). The time savings for those riding the entire length of the line is virtually insignificant and the inconvenience to those wanting to go to a stop skipped by an express/skip-stop becomes a greater factor. PATCO gets no complaints since peak-hour trains operate at 3-4 minute headways and the real factor passengers feel, the wait, is minimized, while riders don't have to worry about what train stops at what station.
Although the sounds as if teh service could stand improvement, at least SEPTA still has A/B runs. To this day I miss CTA's all-day alternating skip/stop service. It's incredibly tedious now going from the Loop to Howard or O'Hare.
Virtually all of us New Yorkers have been affected in some way by the events of Sept 11. My office building is on Broadway and Exchange Place, a few blocks away. Although my building was not damaged in the attack, it has been closed until this week. My company has another office out in Morristown NJ. But I have to say, the worst way I've been affected since the attack, was having to take NJ Transit for the last 3 weeks! To put it bluntly, NJ Transit SUCKS!
Fine fine, maybe I shouldn't be blaming NJT per say, maybe most of the blame goes to Penn station itself. The overcrowded, ugly, dirty transportation hub is one of my least favorite places in NY. But I still blame NJT for a lot of my grief. The conductors have been surly, the trains overpacked (to my surprise since I'm traveling out of the city), and the cars have been filthy.
Growing up in Westchester, I've been spoiled by Metro-North. I love taking Metro-North, always on time, friendly people, and Grand Central Terminal is a pleasure. NJT and Metro-North are like comparing night and day.
These are some things I noticed which just perplexed me during my many unpleasureable trips on NJT the last few weeks:
Trains with 5 or 6 cars, with only 2 or 3 being open, causing massive overcrowding
2 or 3 (unfriendly) conductors collecting tickets all in the same car! On Metro North there's only 2 for the whole car and they do the job wonderfully!
Trains that are almost always late
Trains that are the first to leave in the morning, littered with garbage and newspapers from the night before
Trains that miss the platforms and have to be backed up on several occasions
And finally, the thing that pissed me off the most and prompted me to write this: I get to Penn 1 minute before my train is supposed to leave. I go down to the track hoping that the train is a little late and I still can get on. I go down and the train is still there - but with the doors closed. I knock on the window to the conductor to ask him to open the doors. At first he ignores me. Then he disappears and I and other people waiting assumed he was going to open the doors for us. The train sits for 5 minutes and then leaves!! I know, maybe they had a red signal and were waiting for it to turn, but if it was Metro North, they would've opened the doors!! I've seen it happen where the train even starts to leave, and then stops and opens the doors for a late passanger.
Bottom line= I hate NJ Transit!
Sorry for the rant...
ws
At least you don't have to ride SEPTA.
What are your septa complaints? I'm just curious to see if they're the same as mine. My main complaint is that we have to few subway lines in Philadelphia, and evening and weekend service could be better.
Mark
There used to be a document on this website that discussed proposed elevated lines in the city. The document was from before construction of the Frankford El. I printed it out a few years back and still have it but don't know where the online version is.
For a city this size, we have a woefully small number of rapid-rail transit lines. The lines we have are very crowded but bus routes that I think should have some section covered by rapid rail (9, 20, 21) are really crowded.
The elevated lines proposed would have given Philadelphia a system not unlike Chicago's. An el along Germantown and Passyunk Aves were among the proposals as well as what is now the Frankford El.
Center City should have another N/S line somewher around 20th St and another E/W line on either Walnut or Arch Sts.
What would be even better I thuink would be new subway-surface routes running through these tunnels as well as as heavy rail.
I'm sure that's one topic not as old and repeated as "fantasy subway proposals" for New York.
Taking a long view transit did well in the early years of the twentieth century. Sadly the late twenties, while the era of the IND, were also the END of the Cincinnatti project. Philly got started but in fact the system today is a pale shadow of the planned system. The express tracks on the BSS were built many yers aferthe tunnels were constructed. The bellmouths for the 'famous' Roosevelt branch are there but the line is like Second Ave. OTOH. as Philly follows Detroit into decline, money for urban transit expansion will
be slim and none. (Besides Harrisburg dislikes Philly and they have the pursestrings)
Trust me, I have a million fantasy lines for Philly. Here are a few:
1) My dream system starts with the phantom Roosevelt Boulevard subway.
2) Then I add some length the the trunk of the Broad Street Subway. I extend it north all the way to Jenkintown (yeah, I know the NIMBYs won't like it, but they keep quiet in this fantasy). I also extend it south from the stadiums under the Delaware into Jersey, to the nearest big expressway interchange where I have a giant Park n' Ride lot.
3) Starting at City Hall I'd have a line that runs under Ben Franklin Parkway, stopping at the library, then the art museum. It would continue to the zoo, then through Manayunk, Roxborough, and eventually Conshohocken, with a spur to King of Prussia. At the City Hall end it could be extended southward or eastward, but I haven't figured out where yet.
4) I'd build a crosstown route that incorporates the route of the current R8 Fox chase line, but coming south it would veer to the west, intersecting the BSS somewhere aroung Erie maybe, then run southwest, skirting the south end of Germantown, and eventually running under City Avenue until it reaches the Route 100 tracks.
5) I'd make the additional N-S line that you talked about by replacing one of the Chestnut Hill regional lines with heavy rail, running it south to 30th street. From there it would cross the Schuylkill and run into South Philly, maybe, I'm not sure.
6) I'd extend the PATCO west, across the Schuylkill and then south into southwest Philly.
7) I'd also make a spur from the west end of the Market-Frankford Line at about 46th street veering north to make stops at the Mann Center, and eventually connect with my City Avenue Line. There was an idea I heard about once to extend MFL to Broomall, too, so as long as we're fantasizing, I'd build that, too.
Give me time I could think of more, I'm sure.
Mark
Thanks for not forgetting Roxborough! Also, keep in mind that major crosstown move along the Blvd corridor. That's a key one. You may want to extend it along 52nd St to tap another major transit corridor.
Another I always thought worthy of consideration was the extension of the Broad St subway along the Stenton Ave corridor possibly jumping over to the Chestnut Hill East line at some point. The 'Hillers would absolutely LOVE a rapid transit line to their front doorsteps!
Stenton Ave or maybe Cheltenham Ave would be nice places for a subway line.
I'm not sure I follow your 52d street plan. Are you talking about a southwest extension of the proposed Roosevelt Boulevard line that would run into West Philly?
Mark
Yes, perhaps via City Ave and then turning into 54th St thru Wynnefield, eventually ending up in Southwest Phila, pretty much following the Route 52 bus routing. The 52 is consistently one of SPETA's heaviest bus lines.
I like the idea of a City Ave/54th Street line but having walked along both roads many a time myself, I know that although they run near places people would want to go (St. Joe's, 52nd St. shopping area) the streets don't have much foot traffic.
Now I know that turnstile numbers can determine whether a station gets closed down but does it matter which direction the turnstiles are turning?
Is it more important to transit agencies to see more people entering a station than exiting?
Which streets don't have the foot traffic? Admittedly, City Ave doesn't have a lot but it isn't all that pedestrian friendly either. 54th St may be a different story but this drops not too far south of City Ave. 52nd St to a couple of blocks either side of Market is a vastly different story with the 'strip' in this area.
I was thinking more of the transit corridors. City Ave itself is a busy one with Route 65 (which has many articulated buses on its frequent trips, although I'm not convinced they're really needed there) as well as the 44 and the 1, which has added midday trips. 52 on 54th is a conistently heavy carrier. Many of the riders on all of these lines are walk-ons from the surrounding residential neighborhoods. The geography and street pattern in this area 'drain' toward the major streets (City Ave and 54th St among them) and there are many people who walk to the transit stops. Rapid transit could attract even more, especially with the employment centers in this area. I see a Route 121 trip load every morning in Center City and it's almost always full of folks headed for jobs along City Ave.
PATCO's a funny one. I used to like the idea of extending PATCO deep into the city until I realized what it's for: shuttling people from NJ into Center City. I think the farthest justifiable place to extend PATCO to is University City. At the bery least people who live "behind Rittenhouse Square" have some kind of fast transit access to non-residential Center City and can get to Penn without walking to Market St, driving, or crossing the B&O tracks and hotfooting it on Walnut St.
I like the idea of linking South Jersey to PHL. Not necessarily via the R1 (which is physically impossible anyway) but by a new rail line extending possibly from Camden and going into South Jersey the direction of Glassboro.
Also, is that rail line along 25th St in South Philly still in use?
The 25th St viaduct is alive, not well (take a look beneath it sometime!), and well used by CSX as an alternate to its own line through the west side of South Phila which is less direct. I've heard more than one 'rumor' that CSX may be abandoning its West Side (South Phila) trackage in favor of the 25th St routing. What makes this rumor hold water is the fact that CSX has recently abandoned its massive Snyder Ave yard complex since it has moved the entire operation to the ex-Conrail Greenwich Yards.
Yes there have been plenty of threads about fantasy SEPTA lines here, but not as many as for New York. I like reading about the SEPTA proposals, because Philly really could use a more extensive system with at least one more trunk line.
A line from Chestnut Hill to Center City and South Philly along the east bank of the Schuylkill and under 21st or 22nd Street could work. Its only connection to another rapid transit line would be at 22nd and Market with the Subway Surface lines, but it would serve the Art Museum, the Franklin Institute and the Free Library, as well as many center City office buildings, so it could work. It would also use a lot of existing railroad right-of way outside of Center City, which would keep costs down.
Or how about an extension of the Ridge Avenue subway? Extend it from its intersection with the Broad Street subway up Ridge Avenue and onto the R6 Norristown line in East Falls and have it continue to Conshohocken? Unlike my first proposal, this line would connect with both the BSS and the MFSE as well the PATCO train, but not the Subway Surface lines. But it would have to continue to South Philly underground due to lack of existing right-of-way. And a tunneling under 8th Street (the present Broad-Ridge Spur ends at 8th and Market) could be hard due to the narrow width of the numbered streets in Center City and below. But I think it could still work.
I like both your ideas. If your 21st-22nd street subway were built, an extra MFL station could be added for transfers. Also I like extending the Ridge Avenue subway, just because I always fear it may be shut down someday unless it is made longer and more vital to the city's transit needs.
What about Olney Avenue? If you get off the BSS there the eastbound buses are often packed, sometimes so much that I can't even get on. I might make my fantasy Fox Chase-City Avenue line (see post 272366) travel under that corridor as it makes its way across town.
Mark
Glad you like them. I hope it's feasible to do the Chestnut Hill-22nd St-South Philly line because Philly can definitely use another north-south heavy rail line.
For all the South Jersey/Philly subtalkers. If you could get together and come up with some hard copy ideas, maybe Mike Dlwer couild design a Philly Fantasy Subway Map for us.
I used to have a really elaborate one drawn that had about five or six lines, but the disk it was on crashed! I made it by severely altering the offical SEPTA rail map from their website using Adobe Photoshop. I started work on a new one, but all I've added so far is the Roosevelt subway. If others have time I can pass along what I've got.
Mark
anyone can e-mail me off-site and I can forward to Mike Adler.
I remember hearing from somewhere years ago thast a lot of this is rooted in history. The PRR tended to treat commuters like dirt, whereas the NH and NYC tended to treat them semi decently. No idea, but yeah, NJT crews tend to be assholes....
I remember hearing from somewhere years ago thast a lot of this is rooted in history. The PRR tended to treat commuters like dirt, whereas the NH and NYC tended to treat them semi decently.
I suppose that's because commuters were a smaller part of the PRR's business than for the other two lines.
What were the Erie and DL&W's attitude to commuters? The Hoboken Division seems to have their act together -- usually courteous and often helpful.
NJT ain't Shit! They act like they are the best thing since sliced bread and the hottest thing since the blow torch.
Tonight will be my last night as a NJT employee and THANK FRIGGIN' GOD!
They assholes you run into are the employees NJT love to have. Someone like me (a buff, who loves being around the equipment and working on and driving the equipment) they hate to hire and have around. I've been written up for sooo much bullshit, discharged once for something REAL stupid, and brought back only to more bullshit. Employees like me who love being around passengers and the equipment are far in few and we are spreaded thinly across the NJT system.
Believe me bro I agree with you totally!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Future Liberty Lines Express Employee
This should be on bustalk, but it fits too well into this example. When I went out to Jersey a few months back, I met this one driver who was really helpful in telling me how to get to East Orange from Newark Penn. He told me that NJT Buses do not serve the street that I was going to, and that ONE Bus (Coach USA) was. Who knows. If he was an SOB, I would have wound up somewhere deep in Essex Cty. and have to take the M & E back to Broad St.
Here one example more on topic. One evening, I'm in Penn Sta trying to get schedules for the Bergen line. In the Customer service office, where this lady is trying to contact the Station Master to correct the announcement for a Midtown Direct train that was due to leave in a few minutes. Lots of people are coming in saying "This train is not on track so and so." and she's still calling. She manages to get through, but the correct track is still not posted, so all those people wind up having to wait 20 minutes for the next MD.
The moral: You're right AFB. Helpful employees ar few and far between in NJT.
"Future Liberty Lines Express Employee"
Was you going to be working with Bee Line?
I'm really sorry to see that the NJT thing didn't pan out (obviously). Has LL called you to begin work yet? I've heard that the Classics are nice buses to operate.
BTW, don't any of you give me any grief about this being a bus post in SubTalk either. Trevor has done a lot for this board and I sincerely hope that his future stint with LL pans out well.
Sorry to hear that. I was actually considering becoming a part-timer when I turn 21, either at Market Street or Oradell.
What garage are you out of?
Also, can you elaborate on some of the problems you've had? If you don't wish to get into detail, I'll understand.
Thanks.
I'm out of Fairview. I've been written up for stupid shit, I've had Foremans/Depot Masters/Supervisors pick on me for nothing. The workers are no better, bunch of fucking airheads!
And don't just think that because I'm a Fairview it doesn't happen anywhere else, I've heard other peoples accounts of being singled out or picked on.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Ex-NJT Employee (THE FUCKING RAT BASTARDS)
Future Liberty Lines Employee
Aside from a few gliches, I ride NJT everyday and don't have the same experiences.
I take it from Jersey Avenue into Penn, usually on the 6:36, and we are almost always 5 minutes early. We usually know the crew by first name.
Coming home, aside from Penn being a hole to start with, and that is Amtrak's problem vs. NJ Transit, the service is fine.
It's alot more crowded in the morning and especially coming home since 9/11, but I think I get my money's worth.
Hmmm sounds a lot like LIRR.
>>>>Trains with 5 or 6 cars, with only 2 or 3 being open, causing massive overcrowding <<<
This can also be a problem with the LIRR, especially weekends. Are there any LIRR personnel in here who can explain (defend) this practice?
>>>>Trains that are the first to leave in the morning, littered with garbage and newspapers from the night before <<<
It's true that there should be more cleanup crews at each terminal. But it's also true that passengers have to take some responsibility and stop littering the cars to the degree they do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just another example of why it doesn't pay to ride transit outside of NY.
Even before the WTC tragedy NJT trains were packed. I used to get a seat every time reverse commuting. Now most days I wqind up standing all the way to at least Newark. Many people flip a triple seat and then one of the two sits facing one way and the other ont he other seat facing the other way. Crew members tell people do not flip the seats and then walk right by flipped seats.
I say charge those seat flippers six fares.
I have also seen luggage on the other three seats and nothing was said. Many times also the other facing seat was flipped and held their feet or just empty. I have tried to flip the seat and was told the bleep. I just stand--I'd rather stand than be knifed or worse just for a stupid seat.
Empty cars-- I agree here too! Many times in a 10 car train of MUs they have 3-4 open and packed.
I fear when the bi-levels come they'll cut cars since the bi-levels will hold more (so they'll have fewer cars with the same seating capacity.)
If I could afford a car, I'd bail out of -
Nasty
Junky
Terrible
(NJT if you did not get the layout!)
I'm surprised nobody noticed. The EWK International Airport NEC-Monorail connection station located inbetween HUNTER and LANE just opened on the 30th. Cost of the monorail is $5 and this is pre-payable via your NJT ticket or payable onsite. There is no road access to the station, but the twn island platform configuration and the glass ganrty over 4 of the now 6 mainline tracks does provide some super photo oppurtunities for both NEC trains, the EWK monorail and possible freight movements on the nearby Conrail Lehigh line. I do not know what trains are stopping there, but it includes both NJT and Amtrak trains. Anyone boarding at Newark Penn for the trip south might want to consider a brief "stopover" at the station if you ticket is not lifted between there and Newark Penn. You might also want to bring you scanner as aside from the NEC chitchat you can listen into NK tower which is slated for closure sometime soon.
Unless they've changed it recently, Newark's airport designation is "EWR" not "EWK".
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The station isn't opened yet. A new schedule was distributed to show what trains would stop from the NEC, Coastline & Amtrak trains when the station opens in November
When it does open we are just going to have to have a subtalk field trip.
Nah, it cost's too much money to get there.
I was figuring it would open the end of the month - October 29, when daylight savings time ends and the timetables for the NEC and Coast change.
Service is going to be three trains an hour, and I believe it's going to be mostly North Jersey Coastline South Amboy/Matawan locals making the stops eastbound and westbound during the rush hours. Most Trenton
trains express to and from Metropark to Newark.
We'll see.
But we can get try from the Airport. EWR is only a local bus ride from Newark Penn Station. Then the $5 to ride but if we don't exit fare control at the end of the monorail?
Monorail is $5.00 just to the station plus train fare???
That is what I believe, monorail from EWR to Station is $5 then the NJT or Slamtrak fare...
I could be wrong.
Rip Off, 8 bucks gets you to PofA by bus every 15 minutes
The schedule went into effect last Sunday a month early. NJT added two trains to help with the overcrowding. There's a new Dover train out of NYP about 6:08 PM and a diesel train that will leave Newark bound for Trenton around 6:20 PM. This will take some of the load off the 6:11 PM out of New York that is full when it reaches Newark and passengers can't get on. The 6:11 is so bad that now these trains have been given nicknames by the crews. The 6:11 is referred to as "The Titanic" and the 6:37 is known as "The Andrea Doria".
As for the airport stop, If you exclude rush hour trains all daytime and evening locals are going to stop at the airport. That's two trains an hour on the NEC, one trian an hour on the coast line. Amtrak is strange. Inbound the first train stops at 9:02 AM. Then at 9:38 and 10:59 and nothing until 1:04 PM with the last trian at 1:43 AM. Outbound the first train leaves at 7:32 AM, the last as 2:50 AM. But no trians between 8:26 to 10:56 AM and 4:01 to 7:57 PM. That's a 2 1/2 hour and 4 hour gap.
I've had the pleasure of standing on the 6:11 out of Penn sometimes. It gets so bad that the crew can't collect tickets. I try to avoid it at all costs. I usually try for the 5:52 to Jersey Avenue. If I miss that, it's the 6:33 Express to New Brunswick, which by the time we hit Metropark, is running up behind the 6:11 because of the crowding on some nights.
Does that 6:24 Diesel stop at Jersey Avenue?
Mike the code for Newark is EWR not EWK which is in China
I think EWK is Slamtrak code for the station not the airport which is EWR. NYP to EWK if you bought a slamtrak ticket.
I noticed it was in the new schedule but I couldn't tell if it was really open.
The Newark Airport station is NOT open yet. I rode past both yesterday morning and this evening. The platforms are still cluttered with construction equipment and no trains are stopping. Obviously they are not on schedule; whether due to the WTC attack or otherwise I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.airtrainnewark.com/airtrainnewark/ says "Opening October 21, 2001"
The CTA is planning on expanding the hours of service on the Purple Line express and the Orange Line.
See story in Chicago Tribune
-- Ed Sachs
This news item sort of gave me a bad taste in my mouth. Yes, it's nice that all these folks from the Beaver State are concerned about New York's economic welfare, and their money will help a little bit. Yet it also seems to me that the underlying assumption is that New York is reeling and helpless in the wake of the attacks and needs whatever assistance it can get. That clearly is not the case, but if people keep thinking that way the city's economic and physical recovery actually can be hindered (what business would want to locate in a city that's going down the drain?)
I just hope people stop pitying New York.
I disagree, I think the spirit of cooperation and concern is far is from pity. Alot of tourists (and the city does derive a significant part of its economy - and just as many working class jobs) are scared to come, such acts by the folks from Oregon should be commended as being in the spirit of pulling together, we all need each other in times such as these, false pride has no place now.
Peter,
I wouldn't worry about it. When the people from Oregon get here, they will have a great time and they will see that nothing stops NYC.
What I don't like is CNN's take on all of this. If anyone is making NYC seem "down in the dumps" it is their reporting. IMHO - CNN is not interested in reality - just ratings.
the media in general has been on this trip ever since it happened. all they do is talk about ground zero, and very little about the rest of town. it's annoying at best.
And let's not forget that CNN (and Reuters) refuses to use the term "terrorists" to describe the men that crashed the airliners into the WTC and the Pentagon, killing thousands. I wouldn't worry too much about CNN's coverage. They have been losing tons of audience to FoxNews and CNBC. NYC does have serious problems as a result of the 9/11 attacks. But that doesn't mean that the city has no future. What it does mean is that the critical time for the city is in the next year. Sadly neither of the most likely future mayors Ferrer or Green instill much confidence. Although I must give Green credit for fully understanding the seriousness of the situation. Ferrer's statements have been peculiar at best, comparing rebuilding the WTC site to his alleged "rebuilding" of the Bronx. Two very different circumstances. The Bronx was abandoned by landlords for many reasons. The WTC was destroyed in a terrorist action.
From what I know either Ferrer or Green would be a disaster for New York, but then again sometimes the gravity of the situation can make the man. As for CNN, I have thought for quite some time that Ted Turner is a rotten anti-American bum who would rather blame us for the world's ills rather than focus on the true reasons for the world's problems. Fox News has O'Reilly, Hannity and Colmes, while the very fair and impartial Chris Matthews give us the straight scoop. Yes, they are terrorists and they have done great harm to the city of New York. They have killed many Americans and have disrupted the subway. Certainly the latter does not equate with the former, the damage is still done. Fox and MSNBC are the way to go.
(From what I know either Ferrer or Green would be a disaster for New York, but then again sometimes the gravity of the situation can make the man.)
People I know who know Ferrer say he is a good and thoughtful man. On the other hand, the people and interests supporting him are real negatives.
People I know who've dealt with Green say he's a shallow asshole. On the other hand, he owes far less to the special interests, who are now backing Ferrer. He is also the candidate most likely to back subway investments -- all the transport types are on his side.
Bloomberg knows nothing, but may learn. I'm afraid he'll give out many more special tax deals for the big corporations, leaving high taxes that discourage new businesses in place.
Pick your poison.
P
Sounds like they should give Rudy the 30-day extension, just so one of the three could be sworn in as the new mayor on April Fool's Day...
Sounds like they should give Rudy the 90-day extension, just so one of the three could be sworn in as the new mayor on April
Fool's Day...
always preview before you post, always preview before you post, always preview...
[re poor choice between Ferrer, Green and Bloomberg]
Pick your poison
Dunno if "poison" is quite the word, but given the fact that one of these Three Stooges is going to be the next mayor, a lot of city residents might be picking Bekins, Mayflower, North American Van Lines, U-Haul ...
One of the great benefits of term limits is that it permits public officials to postpone deficits to a time that they can no longer be in office. Guiliani is no exception. He helped create a $2 billion budget shortfall for the next fiscal year, before the WTC disaster. No wonder he wants to stay only 3 months, he doesn't want to balance next year's budget.
(One of the great benefits of term limits is that it permits public officials to postpone deficits to a time that they can no longer be in office.)
New York's state and local debts were off the charts before he, and term limits arrive, though Giuliani and Pataki deserve particular scorn for not reducing them in a boom. It isn't term limits. It is the fact that New York has been run by and for those cashing in and moving out for 40 years.
Larry, I live in California so I can pass that poison up. I'm already in trouble out here with my Republican buddies because I plan on supporting over Democratic governor for re-election next year. It is out of loyalty. Gray Davis has been fantastic to teachers, given us retirement bonuses, greatly improved pensions when we retire and the knowledge that we have a chief executive who respects our profession. I haven't voted for a Democrat of any kind since 1986, but I don't make a habit of biting the hand that feeds me and disloyalty has never been one of my weak points.
Some day, we'll all have the wisdom to vote for the PERSON instead of the "party dogma" they represent. Our small village mayor is running for town supervisor this year, and for all the time I lived here, never knew if he was a republican or a democrat. Turns out that here in the village, you CAN'T get elected under either flag so neither of the major parties have a presence here.
Now at the town level, they made him choose R or D and he refused. He's running as an independent. He's got OUR vote. Some day, we might get past the fundamentalism of our two major parties and their own dogma and find anointed officials who are above all that. Some day. By the way, Bloomberg was a "democrat" all these years but spurned by his own party. The "republicans" picked him up apparently because they didn't really have anyone else. I'd say Bloomberg would be MOST "independent" when elected ... just a thought.
For those of us in NJ, here's the approximate translation:
CA "town" = NJ "township"
CA "village" = NJ "section" or "neighborhood"
CA "town" = NJ "township"
CA "village" = NJ "section" or "neighborhood"
I thought California abandoned towns and villages, they're all cities now, or else unincorporated and the county is the lowest governmental level.
Since you're in NJ, what's a "borough" and how does it differ from a NYC borough, a city or a village?
What's the difference between a town and township? Which is closer to the NY version?
In Los Angeles, the city proper streches from Porter Ranch (a 'city') in the San Fernando Valley past Long Beach...a good 60 miles if I am not mistaken.
These cities are incorporated into the main city. Santa Monica is shown on maps and atlas' as being a totally seperate, individual city, mail is sent to Santa Monica, CA, not Los Angeles, CA, yet the City of Los Angeles' city limits includes Santa Monica.
Perhaps Sea Beach Fred can dive into more detail than I.
>>> These cities are incorporated into the main city <<<
Sorry, you got it wrong. No city is incorporated into another city. Each city is an independent political subdivision of the state, either a "charter" city or a "general law" city. There are 88 separate independent cities in Los Angeles County. Each city has its own governing body and collects taxes. The first city was Los Angeles, incorporated in 1850. The latest one (Calabasas) was incorporated in 1991. There are certain neighborhoods in Los Angeles that have a strong name recognition and once were independent cities but were consolidated into Los Angeles, such as Hollywood, Venice, San Pedro and Watts, and other neighborhoods which were never independent but have strong name recognition such as Brentwood, Canoga Park, Studio City, Woodland Hills, and Van Nuys, which are part of the city of Los Angeles. There are also unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County that have community names including Altadena, Baldwin Hills, East Los Angeles, Rowland Heights and Universal City, but no independent government.
Tom
Santa Monica is an independent city, NOT within the city limits of LA.
This is seriously OT, but where did you get your information that CNN will not use the word "terrorist"? As far as I know, only Reuters has that stupid policy.
(This is seriously OT, but where did you get your information that CNN will not use the word "terrorist"? As far as I know, only Reuters has that stupid policy.)
Terrorist is too good a word for whoever hit the WTC. When the IRA attacked the British Army, or planted a bomb but gave warning to spread terror and damage property but limit civilian casualties, that was terrorism. When the PLO hijacked plans and held hostages, and occasionanally people were killed but not many, that was terrorism. We can deal with such people if they agree to give up violence. At least the understand the political value of avoiding mass killing.
The WTC is in the Hitler category -- pure evil.
Very well said. So, why are we delaying in bringing the Taliban and Ben Laden to their knees? I havent posted for awhile, because Windows XP beta crashed my *(&^ing computer!!!!! I just give up. I went back to Windows 98SE. Best for home PCs. Also, yesterday was my birthday. I want Ben Laden's head as a gift!
The original story ran a week ago in the Wall Street Journal in which an AOL Time Warner exec was quoted on the ban of the use of the word "terrorist" in the wake of the Reuters ban on the word. According to the story (sorry, the WSJ is a pay site, so you can't html link):
"CNN reporters are supposed to refer to the ‘alleged hijackers’ and not ‘terrorists,’" an AOL Time Warner spokesman said, because "CNN cannot convict anybody; nothing has been judged by a court of law.’"
That comment provoked some strong responses, including by the Wahington Post's Howard Kurtz, who hosts CNN's "Reliable Sources" and said on last Friday's Imus show that he was going to keep on calling them terrorists on CNN whether they liked it or not. By Saturday, whatever ban that AOL Time Warner exec wanted CNN to have on the word "terrorist" was off, and the description was in full use again. London-based Reuters, on the other hand, still is enforcing the Orwellian newspeak "terrorist" ban.
London-based Reuters, on the other hand, still is enforcing the Orwellian newspeak "terrorist" ban.
Heh heh, I'll bet if one of the planes had slammed into Reuters' new North American headquarters in Times Square, the sods back in London would drop their objection to the "T" word.
As anyone who has watched CNN can testify, this is false. Terrorist is used all the time. An article in today's Times implies this was a misinterpretation by Fox News (surprise).
Fox got it from the Wall Street Journal, not the other way around. If you've got a problem with the report, call Robert Bartley or Al Hunt and tell them the WSJ doesn't know its ass from its elbow...
That's a false canard about CNN that was spread by Fox News. I been watching CNN all along, and they use terrorist all the time.
I don't see it as pity. New York does need all the visitors it can get. The city just announced its budget deficit will be twice as high as predicted before 9/11 -- largely because of less tax revenues. We need people to come and spend.
Whats worse is all the ads begging people to come back into the city... it's sad and probably worse in the long run - considering the traffic and transit problems here, we've got enough problems dealing with the people who usually come into town, anyone else will just add to that situation and leave them with a bad impression of the city (nothing but traffic and overcrowded trains).
I say let them pity us all they want. We don't need their pity, but we can always use their money. Besides, we can't do anything about it as long as the media's primary goal is to gain ratings, and as long as bad news is more interesting than good news.
Wait until the next budget comes out. I pity those with children in NYC's public schools. I expect spending per child (excluding special ed) to fall to HALF the level in the surrounding suburbs. Taxes will rise, other services will be cut.
You are right. NYC is in far worse shape than most realize. God forbid another terrorist act occurs -- the city will be economically dead.
(You are right. NYC is in far worse shape than most realize. God forbid another terrorist act occurs -- the city will be economically dead.)
We need the rest of the country to help us. The've done nothing but hurt us for the 50 prior years. Might it happen? Maybe. But underestimating the problem won't help (neither will underestimating and make it seem like a money pit.)
I disagree, New York is felling the after affects of a disaster and economical support from Oregon or any other state is a far cry from pity.In fact that shows the United States literally being the United States!And New York is a far cry from going down the drain OK!
WCBS radio was running a story this morning about reimposing NYC's Non-Resident Payroll Tax.
The NJ residents, who were interviewed were all against it, with a bit of NY bashing thrown in. The irony is that this tax did not cost NJ residents anything because it could be deducted from their NJ income tax payments. (It costs the NJ a bundle).
Sen. Bruno and the rest of the Republican Senate was also reported as being against it.
I guess it's back to normal. :-)
I just rode on an R62A set marked for 2!!! They were obviously borrowed from the 1 line because the middle cars all said 1. Sure it was strange to see all of the side and front signs as 2!!!
I take it you didn't note any of the car numbers.
Nope, I didn't have a pen handy.
who needs a pen?
we all have minds.... (or don't we)?
:)
I saw that set too (yesterday). IIRC, they were in the 2100s.
A train of 2100-series cars, eh? Must have come from the (1) or (3) Check the stripe color the next time anyone sees 'em.
I know what it was (purple), it came from the 3, but it was going to be used on the 1 for New Lots, but then I saw it on the 2.
Your going to see more R62A's from the No.1 Line on the No.2+5 Lines.
There are 2 No.1 trains that are now scheduled to leave 242 Street in the 7AM Hour that will run Local from 242 Street to Flatbush. Then go in service as a No.5 train to E 180 or Dyre. Ofcause if a No.2 Line needs a train the train would go to the No.2 Line. They do that a lot at Flatbush change the Numbers of the train for the good of the service.
lately I have been seeing R62/52A cars with yellow (Pelham) stripes on the 2. Are they borrowing Pelham Cars or have they been transferred and the tape is yet to be changed
Pelham cars were running on the (3) before 9/11.
The Pelham set plus 4 singles from LIV made up a (3) train in those days...
The Department of Defense has informed Metro the early opening is no longer needed. Metro will open at 5:30 AM tomorrow morning (and all other weekdays) and 8 AM on weekends (6:30 opening Saturday for AIDS Walk).
Also, the District has requested Metro offer free rides on MetroRail, MetroBus, and MetroAccess on Saturday, October 13 and Sunday, October 14. The WMATA Board of Directors will meet tomorrow to vote on this.
So the WMATA Board of Directors is responsive to the Department of Defense and the sponsors of the AIDS walk, which is commendable, but turns a cold shoulder to working people that have to be at work before brunch time on the weekend.
The AIDS Walk people pay for the system to open early. They provide funds for operations prior to 8 AM but I'm not sure who collects the revenue. As for the DoD, I don't know if that is in effect.
That truly defies belief. If I'm not mistaken, the AIDS walk is a charitable event designed to raise money for AIDS research and other AIDS related purposes. And the WMATA Board of Directors wants a cut from the proceeds? For shame!
This past sunday i saw R142 #6716-#6720 on track 37 at Unionport Yard & today i didn't see R142 #6716-#6720 but i saw R142a #7501-#7505 on the track 37 again at Unionport Yard.
Peace
David Justiniano
Yeah. I believe #6701-6720 has been delivered...
And 6540-6560 is in the shop @ E 180th...
--Cleanairbus...
http://www.mbta.com/newsinfo/press/pressview.cfm#605
My brother was on an Acela Express that was about 45 minutes late, as were other trains. Was this because of the LIRR thing which was actually caused by Amtrak?
Yep. Supposedly there was a catenary arcover when they re-energized a line, and it wiped out Harold. Slick move, Amtrak. Frankly, I'd like to see the LIRR just line up and hold Amtrak trains durring the rush, until they get this new signal mess fixed. Maybe if Amtrak knew that their prescious Acela was going to be sitting in the dark on that curve by woodside for 2 or 3 hours when this stuff happens, they'd start to do novel things like think, and more importantly, check the alignment of wires that were shut off the facilitate work crews being near them, before turning them on. And I bet the ultimate cause for this is going to be something *really* stupid, like a grounding pole they forgot to remove, or something like that.
Anyone know what the IR720 Money Train car was. When was it converted to Money service?
Thanks
IR720, according to my records began life as an R-22 - car #7444. It was converted to a revenue car under contract R-95.
That's what I have too. It was removed from service on the #3 in November, 1987.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Is it the only revenue car or are there others?
There are 18 other single units for collection. There's a page on this site you can use for reference, check the section on work cars.
-Stef
18 wow! That's alot. I will look thanks.
Are all of them self propelled or are they trailers?
Um, I think they're self-propelled (I've seen them working in place of an R-127/134 on the end of a garbage collecting train)
The pictures look like they run a 2 car money train. Is it always 2 cars?
It's always two cars UNLESS:
There is a propulsion problem on one of them and then 'horses' may be added. OR
The Station Dept. requests that HVAC equiped cars be added in very hot weather.
I thought single cars are not run in the system since they might "gap out" at interlockings?
Because of the upcoming renovations work, which is scheduled
to start any day now, the New York Transit Museum requested that
car G be returned to its owner, the Branford Shore Line Trolley
Museum, earlier than the original termination date of November 2003.
This request was made several months ago and originally we expected
to have the car back in time for last weekend's Autumn in New York
event, but the effects of the WTC disaster delayed the shipping.
Car G was retrieved from the Transit Museum yesterday afternoon
by diesel loco #72. To avoid moving the car on the mainline
at the head end, the consist operated to Pitkin yard leads where
it was wyed, then returned via the "A" train route to 207 St
yard, where it was looped and run out to the loading track at
the gate at 215 St. This move was started after 7 PM to avoid
the PM rush hour. Loading onto a special trailer was completed
after midnight and the car, following a circuitous route dictated
by its oversize status, arrived at the trolley museum early
Wednesday afternoon, where it was unloaded without incident.
Both Branford and NYTM expressed satisfaction with the loan
despite the need to prematurely terminate it and look forward
to future collaboration.
I actually passed G on I-84 earlier today in Waterbury. The car seemed to be clean and in excellent shape. People were slowing down to see what it was, especially with the destination sign on the rear that read "City Hall - 3rd Avenue".
Jeff H,
Will Branford look into that incident that happened involving a failed electric light socket ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Nothing to look into. If you take a look at the car, you wouldn't
even be able to tell which socket had the problem.
This was last minute planning? It would have been nice for the Membership to have been notified about the car's return to the Museum.
-Stef
I take it you mean:....
"would have been nice if the
Membership were notified BEFORE HAND
of the car's return to the Museum"
Because of the difficulties in getting an oversize permit
in Manhattan right now, the date and time of the move was
not established until a few days before.
This way very little FOAM was used, if you get my drift.
I got wind of "an unusual move" from 'The Wall' last week, but was not aware it was specifically Money Car G till Jeff's post.
BMTman
I can't wait for the Member's Day two car train of 1227 & G !
The bad news is someone needs to spend the Winter outside to make room for her. Boy do we need another barn realy bad.
Mr t
Nice to see the delivery was made smooth and w/o incident.
Now, it'll be nice to have 1227 and Money Car G as a consist for those 'special days'. It'll be similar to Branford's R-9 and Low V coupling (not prototypical, but it works).
Congrats to Branford and NYCT on a job well done!
BMTman
Perhaps we'll have that train for annual meeting day.
That sounds like a excelent way to ensure a quorum ... It will bring me back. I even won't mind sitting on those hard folding chairs just knowing a treat awaits outside.
Mr t
Do that and "I'll be there"!!
Hooked up to 1227 no doubt? Would love to be part of that pairing...
BMTman
Time to cue up the theme from Welcome Back Kotter.:-)
The BMT Broadway line needs help. I'm avoiding it because you wind up waiting 10-15 minutes for a packed, slow train and this is on weekdays. The TA needs to change the current arrangement on Broadway as this is seriously adding to congestion and screwing riders. Why not put the W, Q, and diamond Q back on the express tracks(to 57). Run the N and W to/from Astoria, terminate the N at Canal, and reverse them on the switches south of Canal, where they will go in service at Canal. Ditto for the R, run it from Forest Hills on it's usual route, and so the same thing at Canal. Now many may fear this will cause delays, but T/O's can board the rear car at Canal and speed up the reversing. Brooklyn Riders at two stations, Prince and 8th street would have to
transfer at Canal for a Q, diamond Q or W to Brooklyn, but that's alot better than screwing all Broadway riders with the current arrangement, with the N/R lower Manhattan tunnels out for months.
Wouldn't you think that your proposal is a waste of equipment?
Arti
Nope because trains would have some breathing room and be faster. If the equipment is there then why not use it? Or does the MTA think that people like to be packed in a sardine can?
IMO, eliminate the express run on BWay, and things would work out just fine.
Running "short runs" on both directions would be a waste of equipment and resources.
Arti
Right now, the Broadway Line's local tracks south of Prince Street are off-limits to trains. When clearance is given, service will be resumed (not stopping at Cortlandt Street). Before that, it is possible that local service from Queens will be turned at Canal Street, but, again, permission must be given by "the powers that be." It's not NYCT's call.
David
More or less avoid Broadway BMT like the plauge until that section is opened. I sure wish Chinatown was in upper Manhattan now! It's such a pain getting there I don;t go nearly as often, and many other toursist have the same idea. Normally takes me 10 minutes or so to get from Midtown to Chinatown. Now it's like almost 30 minutes. Perhaps S/B trains should just run express from 14th street on just to avoid the bottleneck at the Prince st switch. As far as the people at 8th and Prince, let 'em walk.
That's retarded. "Let 'em walk". That's the single most stupid idea I've ever heard. How about running ALL the trains local instead.
Man, talk about ludicrous.... If there were problems at Prince, don't you think they'd be repeated at 14th? I still can't believe you want people to walk just so that your train isn't delayed for a few minutes.
Need to get to Chinatown from Midtown? The "F" 6th av local coupled with the Grand St. shuttle can get you there. Sure, you'll have to walk a little to get to the Canal area, but you seem to like it, so why not?
hehe, and Q...7 was opposing the minute walking caused by MB switch.
Arti
Also you can use the 6
True, 6 always works, but on weekdays, isn't the 6 almost as bad as the Q/W
Been taking Broadway few times lately, local service is much better, I definitely wouldn't complain. I used to avoid it a a plaque, as in N(ever) and R(early). Now IMO the service is comparable to Lex local.
Arti
Ahem..to Qtraindash7: I assume you take the Q all the way home to Brooklyn and an extra few minutes would be a problem for you...may I remind you that Prince Street & 8th would correspond to 6th Ave stops Bway/Laf and West 4th...so when you were coming down 6th Ave, you never had a problem when the B&D's had to merge at 59th/Columbus Circle??? Then further down, you never had trouble when when Q's had to merge with the B/D at 47th-50th??? Then do you not recall crawling from 34 to 4th and then being held at West 4th because of congestion? Then crawling over the bridge stopping occassionally?
So what's the problem? I myself am an NYU graduate. If you should attend NYU one day, you will regret making that "walking" suggestion when you need 8th St, the preferred station for NYU. It actually says 8th St/NYU on the map (yea). It was already problematic when the downtown stations were closed for upgrade. And hey, if you go to Columbia, you more or less have to go local all the way.
What would happen is you made people walk?? Canal & 14 would be even more crowded...Canal is already a narrow platform, as is Grand St (remember the news article in `95??)
Be thankful.
By the way: another reason to love Sea Beach...the view of the sky between 59th & New Utrecht...riding alongside the recent full moon...gorgeous, just gorgeous...plus, Sea Beach is usally empty at night so the mood is right...West End, Brighton..you guys are too lively...nothing beats the peace and quiet of Sea Beach....
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
Hope Fred doesn t read this.
Oh Fred has read it all right. Read my response. You've got to hand to SeaBeach53. Besides being a class act, he really knows what he is talking about. Too bad some others on this site don't. No names please.
What you mean SeaBeach53 is that NOTHING beats the Sea Beach PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!. To me it is the greatest ride of all the
lines on the New York Subway. Whooshing through those tunnels and rambling through that opoen cut withthe sky and neighborhood above is a real combo between a subway and an elevated. You have to use your imagination to fully comprehend and revel in that line. And the reason it not so crowded is that is does not bisect a bunch of hokey buslines that take riders from the Brighton and Culver to their homes. In fact, I've been told the riders on those two lines can't wait to depart those losing lines to get the bus. And when you prefer the bus over the train, that speaks volumes about those second rate lines. The Sea Beach, on the other hand, goes through nice neighborhoods where you can get off the train and waltz a few blocks home. The Sea Beach today, tomorrow, and forever.
Here we go again....
Nothing beats the Culver. It combines good service with the highest point in the NYCT system. It also gives a great view of CI's shops.
And is 300 pct local, and even slower then the Slow beach was, as to Fred, the Slow Beach is below Street Level and if you are not at the Rail Fan Widow, all you see on the right is wall, and on the left 2-3 other tracks. Only when it leaves 86th St to CI you get sto see anything. and yes J Line, here we go again. As long as #1 Brighton Bob and #4 Slow Beach Fred are on line, this is what you will get.
Yep, the Bob and Fred show is back on the airwaves.:-)
Absolutely
Yes J, here we go again. But you have to blame SeaBeach53 for that. His post on the Sea Beach was so inspiring that I couldn't resist jumping in and offering my two cents worth. You came through like I knew you would, but I still have heard from Q yet. Oh yes, Bob was heard from (Isn't he always) and was complaining as usual. But give my good friends credit. He keeps things alive on what is becoming the Bob and Fred show. This is like a soap opera, isn't it? Maybe we should dub it "The Never Ending Story." I'm in top form now, eh?
Yes, Fred, now you are hearing from me. And yes, you're in top form. And the Slow Beach is in top form too, running local in Brooklyn 24/7. Tranquilly.
If they were running BMT standards today, they could very well be set to "Sea Beach L'c'l." They had those signs.
Right ON
And I know how much Fred loved the standards.....
The Triplex. That was the railcar that was the creme-de-la-creme of them all. Standards, poo. They belonged on the Brighton, West End and 4th Avenue Local. The Triplex made the Sea Beach the special train that it was. That identified that line. Back then my Sea Beach was respected by the TA if for no other reason than it had an identity of its own, the Triplex.
The Brighton Express also had the Triplex, do you forget, and it was a true Express all the way to Brighton. The Sea Beach was a local South of 59th Street, stopping at every little station.
Well, there you go again. May I remind you that your line used the B Standards as well as the Triplex, and the only damn reason you were a "real" express is because it took two lines to make your trains real. The Sea Beach was so superior that it needed only ONE line to make its identity. When someone mentioned the Brighton no one knew what the hell they were talking about unless they said local or express. The Sea Beach was known as the Broadway Express in Manhattan and the Sea Beach in Brooklyn. One more thing, just look at the name Brighton. We could be talking about England, you damn copycats. Or the Brighton Stranger, about that killer who roamed London devouring innocent women. When you mention Sea Beach, you think of the beautiful blue sea laden with fresh seafood and ships and sails. When you think of Beach, you think of sand and fun and a day enjoying yourself. Since you are a weirdsky I'm sure you'd prefer the Brighton, but not this guy. The Sea Beach brings to minds blue sky, white sands, and green-blue ocean waves on a cool summer afternoon. Take that.
You forgot about Brighton Beach in Victoria Australia. By the way WHERE IS SEA BEACH, can not find it on any map of Brooklyn from 1700 until now. A Slow Train that goes nowhere Thats the Sea Beach.
How come everywhere there is a Brighton, it is cloudy and windy, real crappy weather. Victoris is no picnic. It rains like hell and when it is sunny you can fry an egg on the sidewalk, and have a nice glass of sweat that pours out of your body. That's real living pal. When anyone things of the Sea Beach, they put those two words together and it spells pleasure, either on the sea or at the beach. Simple as that Roberto.
"life's a beach." (whoops!)
nd then you marry one
Yep, the Bob and Fred show is back for more scintillating Brighton vs Sea Beach banter.>-)
Watch it Steve, or Frec abd I will get on your case about the A Train Service. 20 minute wait at Howard beach for a traIN AT 2.00pm OIN A wEDNESDAY nO hOLIDAY
Right Bob! Hey Steve, what's that all about anyway? A twenty minute wait? Come on, for an express, that's pathetic. But as far as the Bob and Fred show is concerned, if our fire warms you, then you are welcome to sit by it.
Well, I haven't heard anyone refer to the A as the Always.:-)
Of course, when the R-10s were still around, it was Always fast along CPW.
Must be to much ROCKY MOUNTAIN HIGH
It's even worse on the summit of Pikes Peak or Mount Evans.:-)
"...blue sky, white sands and green-blue ocean waves...." Actually, I think of sunburn, grain of sand caught between my toes, and, in addition specifically with regards to the Sea Beach, empty trains going to Coney Island, and specifically with regards to Coney Island, sandwich wrappers blowing in the sea breeze and trash baskets filled to the brim.
Q: I knew I'd be hearing from you long about now. Well, you are a killjoy aren't you? If the Sea Beach is empty going to Coney Island, then it affords you an opportunity to get a railfan window and enjoy yourself. Sand in the toes is part of the beach. Besides, you can always shower off. I guess to you the glass is always half empty rather than half full. The beach should get you romantic. Don't you remember this.
Under the boardwalk, down by the seeeeeeeaeaaaay
with my baby and a blanket I'll beeeee.
Was that the Four Tops, the Temptations, or someone else out of Motown?
Wrong on all counts, even labels. Ben E King and the Drifters, or maybe just Ben E King Alone
The Slow Beach only has little stations. We're all lucky they haven't made it into a shuttle by now, like the Myrtle Av. line evenings, nights, and weekends. And, by the way, the Brighton-Franklin Expresses, which ran on Sundays and during the summer months (Memorial Day to Labor Day?), used mostly standards, so we've been told.
They had a large white dot on one of their front pantograph gates to identify the train as a Franklin-Nassau Special. Now, if the standards had had actual signs on their bulkheads, it might have been a little different.
Steve, I wasn't thinking of the Franklin-Nassau Specials, but the regularly scheduled Fulton/Franklin to Brighton Beach or Coney Island Expresses, as per the published schedules (check out www.bmt-lines.com).
I stand corrected.
They were 3 and 6 car standards depending on the weather
The White Dot was on all Franklin Trains, either to CI, Nassau or just the shuttle and Green Green Marker Lights
"The white dot was on all Franklin Trains...." Well, you got me there, Bob. I thought the white dot was reserved for the specials and was not used for the regularly scheduled Fulton/Franklin to Brighton/Coney. So that picture on the MTA website, taken July 4, 1953, could have been one of the regularly scheduled expresses and not a Franklin/Nassau special? And are you sure that during the week the Triplexes had always been used as Broadway-Brighton Expresses? That would make sense as the Triplexes could absorb huge crowds, more than the standards. But others on the site say it was only from around the mid-'50s that they were used as expresses.
Absorb ain't the word. Swallow was more like it. The capacity on the Triplexes had to be incredible.
From a Small Child on Kings Highway in the 40s until I left Brooklyn Xmas 58, the Brighton Express always ran Triplexes Mon-Sat 530A-930PM. Sometimes, but rarely a Standard was on the Exp and a Triplex on the Local, but very rarely. The Dot was always on the Franklin, no matter where it ran
The Triplex! Music to my ears. Of course, the Sea Beach and the Triplex were synonomous. None of those damn standards on my train.
Thats one thing we share, the love for those Brown Bombers the Triplex. I used to love to stand in the portals if I could not get the 1st car and pretend I was the conductor, standing between the cars
I think of the Triplexes as Gentle Behemoths. Knowing the type of damage they could inflict had they ever collided with anything else (except perhaps a BMT standard), that's an appropriate nickname.
Well goody goody, we are all in agreement on that. The Triplex was a magnificent train. When I look at some of the types plying the system today I want to throw up. No comparison to those powerhouse Triplexes. That is what I miss most about my old Sea Beach.
The most amazing thing about the Triplexes was that they just ran and ran and ran with virtually no maintenance. I'm telling you they would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance. They would have kept right on rolling along while the rest of the fleet was limping along.
The BMT standards were back on the Sea Beach by the late 50s.
I left NYC in Xmas 58 and the Triplex were still on the Brighton Exp and the Sea beach. BTW where is SEA BEACH?
It is by the sea and on the beach dumb dumb. Don't you just love that name SEA BEACH. It sounds so inviting and invigorating that you just want to take my train and head down to the surf and sand. But you can't because you live in Rebeland and there "ain't no" beaches there. Now I can mosey down to the shore anytime I want and lay in the sand on the warm and balmy Southern California Coast and pretend I got there on the Sea Beach. Sorry Bob.
I am only 2 hours from the Beach here. Funny when I lived on Maui I lived 2 blocks from a beautiful 8 mile long beach, but rarely went. Do I miss the beach, I miss the view I had every time I left the house. Do I miss Maui, don t tell Judy, yes
Hey Bob, that is a big admission coming from you. Be sure Judy doesn't see it or it will be aloha back to the islands.
She never reads these posts. I will e mail you later
Usually where there is a sea there is a beach. Sort of a redundancy, don't you think, Fred? Oh, if there was just a beach without the sea it would be a desert, like in Sahara. Or if there was a sea without a beach it would just be rocks. Rocks are pretty cheap. They get thrown around all the time. Everybody must get stoned.
There is a beach near Las Vegas in the middle of the desert, sand and all that the Sea has, except Fresh Water and No waves. So a Beach does not have to be on the Ocean, Bay, Gulf etc. It could be on a big lake. Isn t there some beaches in Chicago on Lake Michigan?
Yep, there sure are.
But there's only one Slow Beach. Now local even in Brooklyn, 24/7.
Rubbing it in to poor old Fred, Love It
I stand corrected. The standards did return to the Sea Beach at some point after you left. They may not have completely taken over, however.
Bob, I'm glad to know that the Triplexes were always used as the Broadway-Brighton Express. Given the capacity figures posted here a year or so ago, it just makes sense that way. The Brighton Express always needed the capacity. I doubt that the Sea Beach needed it, though.
If I remember correctly that there was just as many Sea beach and West End Trains running in the 40s-50s as the Brighton Exp. I remember the order was Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, out of Times Sq and later 57th St. They may have added additional brighton Trains in 53/534 when the Brighton was extended to Astoria
I didn't care for them, either.
One thing I never understood. If you could fit "Sea Beach L'c'l" on a rollsign, why couldn't you fit "Sea Beach Local"?
You'd need to take a Civil Service "Battery Test" to arrive at the conclusion. :)
In other words, you don't wanna know. :)
The rollsigns on the BMT standards had a lot of abbreviations. The only sign with " Local" spelled out was a plain generic "Local" sign. Same thing with "Express". All express routes had "Exp." except for the plain generic "Express" sign.
I know- except the abbreviation for Local - L'c'l -- was almost as long as the word. Silly.
OTOH the words Express and Local were spelled out on the original R-1/9 curtains on both sides.
Yeah, 'neverending' is the perfect title for it.
Probably the Sea Beach and 4th Av. locals have lost more riders to express buses than any other line. Check the figures David posted a few months ago with those on the bmt-lines website for 1927-1928. Most Sea Beach stations have only a quarter of the ridership they had back then. I doubt that the Brighton or the Culver have fared nearly as badly.
>>I doubt that the Brighton or the Culver have fared nearly as badly.<<
See many express buses in their territory? Plus, the Culver and brighton have trains coming soooo frequently that they might actually be somewhat quicker.
With all due respect, why are you now located 3,000 miles away from the Sea Beach line, your most favorite beloved line in the whole wide world, the line that travels through the "nice neighborhoods" that you seemed to have abandoned many years ago? If it was because of your family that you moved, I'm sorry to hear that, but if I loved a place so much, I would have moved back at the first available opportunity. Personally, I would have moved to my favorite city, Toronto, years ago. The place has excellent transit, civilized humans residing there, and it's clean. It has all the good things that U.S. cities have, and virtually none of the nonsense. However, it's located in Canada, a foreign country where you just can't relocate on a whim. However, the last I heard, people from California are able to move to Brooklyn without applying for immigration! In my final analysis, I guess you will continue to yearn for your beloved Sea Beach line as you remain in California today, tomorrow, and forever.
Fred never lived in Brooklyn, he lived in LIC and Astoria
Wrong again Bob. I lived in Brooklyn until I was three. Please remember that. Plus I spent much of my time living at my grandparents and aunts houses, all of whom lived in Brooklyn.
Fishbowl: Yes, you are right, I do miss the Sea Beach very much. But I mainly miss the Sea Beach of my youth when it was the #4 train, was an express, whizzed down 4th Avenue on those magnificent Triplexes, whooshed through those mini tunnels at breakneck speed, and majestically entered Stillwell Station. That Sea Beach doesn't exist anymore, but loyalties die very hard with me. As far as living in California, I prefer to live her. I am a very loyal Californian and consider my family's move back in 1954 the break of my life. That said, let me also tell you that I still have a loyalty not to the state of New York but to New York City, the metropolis of my birth and the greatest city in the world. However, I wouldn't like to live there. It is too crowded and I have become a suburban guy who likes a little room, a home with a lawn and three dogs (I buried my 16 year old Silky Terrier this morning), and some orange trees in my back yard. I hope that answers your question.
Fred, I'm sorry to hear about your dog, unfortanately I'm allergic, so I was never able to have one. Anyhow, I just wanted to let you know that I was born in Brooklyn in 1959, and I lived there until April of 2000. Mainly because of my job, I moved to Central New Jersey, far enough away from the "hustle and bustle", but close enough where it's not that bad to visit family & friends occaisonally. Though I have fond memories of growing up in Brooklyn, I have no real loyalty to it because after traveling to different places throughout my life, I saw that there were better places to grow up. And even though the New York City Subway was a big part of my life until 1 1/2 years ago, I certainly don't have the passion toward it or any particular line like you do. Even though I lived on the other end of Brooklyn, I thrilled over the Broadway Brooklyn BMT, especially at Myrtle Ave or at Broadway Junction, but I don't feel as attached to it as you seem to be towards the Sea Beach. I guess it's because I'm still only 40 miles from there, so I can get there very easily if I so choose. By the way, I don't have orange trees here in New Jersey, but I do see possums roaming around the garden apartment complex quite often when I get home from work late at night!
Possums? They come out at night here and they are the ugliest things around. I think they are even more hideeous than those rats I've seen on the New York subway tracks. Hell, one time one big one waltzed right by me on the platform like I wasn't even there. Not scared of me at all.
Fred do not get another dog, you still have enough, plus the Puppy. I wish i can replace Yogi, but i can t
Great advice Bob. You are right, three are enough. My wife and I both agree on that. They keep us real busy. I'll tell you this, though. I despise landlords who will not allow dogs on the premises. They are wonderful animal companions, and sometimes I think they are better than people. They are never treacherous, disloyal or ungrateful. I am an unabashed dog lover.
Had Goldie today, took her to the groomer, and she loved being with me. Wish i could keep her here with me in the apt, but i know she loves being on the farm, but is lonely there without her brother Yogi
To hell with your rotten landlords.
I know, but I can t afford to move.Maybe after the New Year, andf all my trials and tribulations will be over.
Well, if it's up to the powers that be, then I can see why the TA is not running N or R service. But they have allowed the TA to relay the E at its WTC station (without passengers of course), so the TA could run at least the R to Canal and allow it to relay south of Canal at a safe distance from Ground Zero. But I'm sure they have their reasons for why the local tracks below Prince are off-limits.
What about "minor WTC E line station platform damage" Is that gone?
I'm sure most, if not all, of the minor damage is gone otherwise they wouldn't be relaying the E there. Of course passengers can not board or get off at WTC. But since that station is right next to Ground Zero and they're letting the E relay there, then surely they let the R relay between Canal and City Hall on the two center track. That area is some distance from the wreckage. Maybe at some point they might.
I'm sure most, if not all, of the minor damage is gone otherwise they wouldn't be relaying the E there. Of course passengers can not board or get off at WTC. But since that station is right next to Ground Zero and they're letting the E relay there, then surely they can let the R relay between Canal and City Hall on the two center tracks. That area is some distance from the wreckage. No buildings between Canal Street and City Hall have been affected so the R should be able to relay there without any trouble.
But would you like to be the one to announce to all the passengers who board at 28th, 23rd, 8th, and Prince (not to mention local stops on the N and R in Queens) that they will all need to transfer at 14th or Canal to get to Brooklyn? Don't forget that the transfer at Canal involves one flight down, one flight up, and another flight down, with lots of walking in between. And those bound for 95th or Sea Beach (i.e., former through N and R riders) will either need to transfer again in Brooklyn or will have to walk clear from Broadway (N/R) to Centre (J/M) at Canal -- tack on a walk of a trainlength and another flight back up. All this when they used to get direct service to Brooklyn with all connecting services across the platform at DeKalb or Pacific.
It ain't just the broadway. the west side irt blows chunks. took it during a mid afternoon monday, and every express stop was swamped with people.
it's just plain dangerous. if something happens in one of them stations, it's going to be ugly. they got to get the crowds moving akready...
The west side IRT plan is brainless. First off, they have the 1&2 running local from Brooklyn. What should happen is that the 3 should be scrapped, 1 trains should get 1/2 of it's cars while the 2 gets some as well. 2 trains can run express, 1 trains local.
But, if they HAD to keep the 3 train, then it should be running local to brooklyn with the 2 while the 1 runs express. It would appear that the 1 has many more riders than the 3 does when coming from uptown only.
And how would you implement your plan based on the existing track geometry?
Arti
If you recall, Lenox reconstruction essentially shut down the #3 tracks north of the 2/3 divide. Most #3's terminated at 137th (during the period, I actually NEVER saw a Lenox-bound #3 train)
Hence, the same plan of action could be taken. 1 trains switch to the local track at Chambers, 2 trains continue as expresses. Do 145th and Lennox get much service? more than the Franklin shuttle? Even if it was minimally higher, shuttle bus service would still suffice for the line.
I think 9/17-9/19 the 2/3 ran lcl to Bklyn and the 1 ran express. EVERY TRAIN no matter 1, 2, or 3 had to cross north of 96th to get to its correct track. That seemed to go smoothly. Also don't forget, the local didn't always go to 137 at one point the locals went to Lenox/Bronx and the expresses went to 137 and up.
With the current setup, only the 2 switches tracks north of 96th St. The 1 and 3 stay put on the same track.
From my understanding, it DIDN'T go smoothly.
Well it is probably harder now than in history b/c of longer trains and grade timers enforced. That's probably why they switched the 1 and 3 south of 96th.
Or, better still, run the 1 and 3 local to Brooklyn and run the 2 express to 14th Street. The 1 should operate to Flatbush, replacing the 2, and the 3 can go back to New Lots.
>>>But, if they HAD to keep the 3 train, then it should be running local to brooklyn with the 2 while the 1 runs express. It would appear that the 1 has many more riders than the 3 does when coming from uptown only.<<<
This actually was done on Sept. 17th and 18th. It was stopped, because it caused major delays north of 96th Street because all of the express trains had to cross in front of all of the local trains. Don't scrap the 3, you need two 7th Avenue IRT services in Brooklyn, just make the 3 local.
>>Or, better still, run the 1 and 3 local to Brooklyn and run the 2 express to 14th Street. The 1 should operate to Flatbush, replacing the 2, and the 3 can go back to New Lots.<<
This is in no way better than the current plan.
>>This actually was done on Sept. 17th and 18th. It was stopped, because it caused major delays north of 96th Street because all of the express trains had to cross in front of all of the local trains. Don't scrap the 3, you need two 7th Avenue IRT services in Brooklyn, just make the 3 local.<<
Oh, yeah. I forgot about the cross-over. Anyway...
I didn't suggest taking away one of the brooklyn services. I suggested scrapping the #3 (until South Ferry is back in operation) and making the 1 & 2 run to brooklyn with the 2 running express in manhattan so that at least some brooklyn riders have express service.
[>>Or, better still, run the 1 and 3 local to Brooklyn and run the 2 express to 14th Street. The 1 should operate to Flatbush, replacing the 2, and the 3 can go back to New Lots.<<
This is in no way better than the current plan.]
It's not? White Plains Road 2 riders headed to the West Side must already deal with a long slow ride and many stops through the Bronx and Harlem. The 3 makes only six stops before 96th Street while the 2 makes a whopping 24 stops before 96th Street.
[I didn't suggest taking away one of the brooklyn services. I suggested scrapping the #3 (until South Ferry is back in operation) and making the 1 & 2 run to brooklyn with the 2 running express in manhattan so that at least some brooklyn riders have express service.]
Ah, now I understand. Yes that's better because both Bronx and Brooklyn IRT riders bound for the West Side get direct express service back. Right now Brooklyn and Bronx riders must transfer to get express service. That's not a good thing.
#1 and #2 service by themselves are inadequate to handle West Side IRT ridership, and there is no room in Brooklyn for additional #1 and #2 service (theoretical capacities aside). This plan would, therefore, do very little for Brooklyn while overloading Manhattan.
David
>>#1 and #2 service by themselves are inadequate to handle West Side IRT ridership, and there is no room in Brooklyn for additional #1 and #2 service (theoretical capacities aside). This plan would, therefore, do very little for Brooklyn while overloading Manhattan<<
Well, the present plan sucks. It leaves no express service into Brooklyn with the only express train coming from Lenox? That sucks, and you know it.
If possible, terminate the uptown #3 at 42nd, using that middle track between 34th and 42nd to turn #3 trains. Also, they can still increase the headways of 1&2 trains slightly.
I guess I understand your point, And I understand why the TA is doing this, but isn't there some way the TA can allow a 7th av express into brooklyn?
"...isn't there some way the TA can allow a 7th av express into brooklyn?"
Sure! Rebuild Rogers Junction (south of Franklin Avenue) to increase the number of Seventh Avenue trains that can run in Brooklyn, especially off the Nostrand Avenue Line.
I'm willing to bring a spoon to dig to widen the structure if someone'll pay for the tracks :-)
David
They could also hire the Heypaul Construction Company.:-)
How about fixing the junction at 96th so that any train from the north can reach either track (express or local) to the south directly? I have it all worked out -- on paper, that is. (Northbound, trains on the local track will have access to Lenox and Broadway local; trains on the express track will have access to Lenox, Broadway local, and the Broadway middle track. One possible service arrangement is 1, 2, and 3 as now, and 9 express south of 96th and also peak-direction north of 96th. A pocket track south of 96th would allow the 3 shuttle to terminate at 96th instead of 135th, offering more extensive transfer opportunities. (Northbound trains could terminate, if necessary, on the middle express track north of 96th.)
Not to say that Mr. Greenberger's plan shouldn't be done, but fixing 96th Street Junction wouldn't do anything at all for Brooklyn, which was what we were talking about.
David
Oh, of course not. I was just mentioning a different project elsewhere on the line that would, if nothing else, offer greater routing flexibility (be it scheduled or emergency-response) without decreasing capacity.
perhaps i've been up too long, but this is something i've been wondering a bit more and more:
on 9/11, i left me house, camera in hand, after only having heard one plane hit, thinking it was just some freak accident,
in my rush downtown, all trains (bway and 8th av) were terminating at 42nd. i still found my way downtown, realzing on the way that there was a decent chance i'd be walking out of the area (manny b to brooklyn...). ...now that i think of it in retrospect, I wonder a bit...
there were thousands of people walking north that morning - since there was no trains - if said attack included bio warfare, these folks (and mtyself, for that matter) mighta still been in danger due to airborne chemicals.
the question in all of this is: should trains have come a bit further south, where they could in an effort to evacuate some of these people? or would this have become a chaotic affair? (everyone was rather calimly walking away, from what i could see...) should the TA have some good evacuate plans drawn up? (surely the folks at PATH had one, or just plain great sensibilty to operate as they did, gathering and shipping everyone out of the wtc terminal).
also, given the recent overcrowding, me thinks a 2nd av line should just be a first step in overhauling transit around here. i can't imagine what would happen if soemthing else went down where everyone tried to get out of town fast, or we lost another through route...
...just soemthing to chew on...
also, given the recent overcrowding, me thinks a 2nd av line should just be a first step in overhauling transit around here.
The planned 2nd Ave line will not connect to Brooklyn nor the Bronx. If something happened that prevented any of the Bronx or Brooklyn lines from reaching Manhattan, it could not provide an alternate route.
The planned 2nd Ave line connects only with the 63rd St tunnel from Queens. This tunnel already connects with the 6th Ave and BMT lines in Manhattan. If something happened to the 63rd St tunnel west of 2nd Ave, then the Queens trains already have the choice of using the 53rd and 60th St tunnels.
The 125th - City Hall capacity for the 2nd Ave line will be 15 tph, only 25% the capacity of the existing Lex service.
It won't be much of an alternative for for a disaster.
Keep in mind 2 things:
1. They were trying to keep people away from the site. Running trains there would have allowed people to get closer.
2. It didn't take too long before the whole system was shut down.
The B/D trains couldn't be better! I hope they never finish the bridge.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anyone know where the subway damage is in relation to the rubble piles above ground?
See, this is why college students protest. You can't count on anything anymore. Used to be, you turn on a light and the roaches run. Now they actually come out.
"Does anyone know where the subway damage is in relation to the rubble piles above ground?"
Judging by a map of lower Manhattan downloaded from the MTA website, The IRT Cortlandt St. station was closest to #2 World Trade Center.
In fact it was physically closest to the south part of the station. World Trade Center Plaza was closest to the middle of that station. Now #1 World Trade Center was farthest from Cortlandt St station on the same line as the northern moset part of the station.
This is according to this map, so I can't vouch for its accuracy if it's on the money or not.
I am aware of since using this station in the past, I gained access throught the mall upstairs. I am not aware of any direct access from street entrances.
The BMT Cortlandt St. Station is one block east of the IRT one, but differing reports of damage or not have surfaced here since 9/11. So things are sketchy right now.
Bill "Newkirk"
Do Peter's maps show all of the switching? If they don't could I get some input on what is missing. I am building a BAHN simulation, and want to include all of them.
Thanks
Except for inside yards, yes.
If you mean Peter Dougherty, that man shows EVERYTHING! I've ridden the rails with his book in tow and he misses very little. The dedication he put into that book is almost sick. I LOVE that book.
I've done many Bahn simulations of it. Heck, I'm doing one now but it's not on my priority list. The program has many limitations to keep it realistic. But, never the less, I have custom NYC Subway Cars for it but only in today's routes. E-mail me for more infos...
From an engineering standpoint, Both buildings peeled outward as they collapsed. Given that the beams with the most kinetic energy would have been towards the outside of the rubble piles. An assumption might be made that if the tunnel runs underneath the tower(s) there might be a chance that the collapsed portion might be in two parts with a "relatively" undamaged section between.
If it was about twenty to fifty feet to the side it might be possible to remove the debris from within the tunnel as there would not be a tremendous load above that would force more debris in as soon as some was removed.
As far as the buckled column goes, some good heavy jacks should be abto relieve the strain ( if there is any, asit may have deformed due to the initial kinetic energy release and may not still be under compression.
"As far as the buckled column goes, some good heavy jacks should be abto relieve the strain ( if there is any, asit may have deformed due to the initial kinetic energy release and may not still be under compression."
The TA bolstered up some of the tunnels with heavy duty square wooden beams to prevent a ceiling cave in. I don't know if this was on the BMT or IRT tunnels. My guess is when the area is cleared and the TA is given a green light to rehab the IRT Cortlandt St Station it will be more than a rehab. My guess is the whole station and affected tunnels will be excavated and totally rebuilt. I don't think the TA will chance any spot rebuilding since the station and tunnels got hit bad and the structural integrity may be comprimised. There may be some structural weak spots not seen to the human eye.
Bill "Newkirk"
They wouldn't be using just the old eyeball. Now when concrete is certified they can scan it using ultrasound to find any discontinuities. Similiar to finding earthquake faults or oil. It saves having to replace sections that might be sound.
". It saves having to replace sections that might be sound."
Knowing the TA, they won't do a patch job. Since Federal dollars for rebuilding will be involved and the street above is probably beaten to hell, it would make sense to open the station up, demolish it and rebuild. That station is kinda close to the street anyway, those I beams that speared the station and tunnels are evidence of that.
Bill "Newkirk"
It would be interesting to know how deep it is. The only real barrier to the beams penetration would have been the street and the roof of the tunnel The beams probably behaved like armor peircing ammo, small end area with a large mass behind for kinetic energy. Whats between the street and the roof of the tunnell was probable all fill. This is assuming the tunnel was under the street.
It might be appropriat to do a tile mural in the station showing the before and the horror so we never forget what terrorism is capable of.
[The beams probably behaved like armor peircing ammo, small end area with a large mass behind for kinetic energy. ]
Steel doesn't have nearly the density of armor piercing bullets, also the buzzword of yours "kinetic energy" is not applicable in this comparison. :-)
Arti
Steel doesn't have nearly the density of armor piercing bullets
Most AP ammo was/is made of steel. Granted that there are various manufacturing processes that make it much harder than normal steel, but it is steel none the less.
Better AP ammo is made of hi-density metals like Tungsten and depleted Uranium, but these materials are expensive and not widly available.
Remember the 1/9 tunnel at the WTC is two levels below groud -- the 1/9 tracks do not rise up a level between Chambers and Cortlandt, they remain two levels underground but divide just north of Vescey Street to make room for the 2/3 tracks coming from Park Place.
The stairs inside the mall area went down to the 1/9 platform at Cortlandt, so the debris from Tower 2 had to penetrate the mall level first, and then came through the roof of the IRT tunnel, which shows even more how much force was behind it in the collapse (and IMHO, it's pretty amazing that the part of the station that's on the bridge over the PATH escalators didn't also collapse).
Goes to show that good engineering was involved.
The term 'street' is a little misleading here. Greenwich St. and West Broadway no longer cross that area, since the WTC development extended east to Church St.
The subway is the only remaining vestige of those roads.
So too, for that matter, is Cortlandt Street -- it disappeared at the site of the IRT 1/9 station back in 1968, but the name of the station remained (and the WTC wasn't even added until the late 1970s). But it does explain the curve in the IRT tunnel within the WTC site, since that's the spot where it veered onto Greenwich St. headed south from West Broadway -- a curve they could smooth out a bit during reconstruction, depending on how much new work they want to put into the project).
The TA will also have to coordinate any rehab work with the Port Authority, since the PATH escalators run under the Cortlandt St. station. Both the MTA and PA will have to determine reconstruction timetables, options for temporary entrances if needed (more of an issue with PATH than with the 1/9, since PATH has no other downtown stations) and future plans for interconnecting the stations, along with whether or not the IND and BMT stations would be linked as well and how the final underground layout of the site will look.
The original WTC site went up piecemeal, with little thought by the PA on what the other subway entrances besides PATH would look like, which led to the stupid "exit only" stairways from the 1/9 into the main part of the mall. Hopefully whatever underground layout goes into the WTC site next will be a little better thought out.
Good points. Hopefully with the money available to rebuild they go for the most user compatable reconstruction possible!!
You guys seem to be extremely hopeful about this re-building work. Most of the cortlandt st. station was severely damaged. I-beams have ruptured the tunnel. An engineer who visited the station noted that as he walked down the platform, the ceiling kept getting closer and closer to his head. That's a pretty good sign of severe damage to the station, don't you think?
Plus, In case no one else has stated this yet (or you just haven't read my posts): The TA is going to fill the IRT tunnels with concrete. Any hope of any sort of 'fast tracking' on those tunnels is unlikely. Someone here said something about it being done quicker than usual because the tunnel would be off-limits to passengers. But the TA won't even begin work on the tunnels for some time, certainly not before most, if not all, of the rubble is cleared from the site, and that could take time.
Why the concrete? I hadn't heard about that. I'm a transplant to the west coast and don't get all the news.
There was an article linked a couple of days ago with a full explanation, but the short of it is that they are plugging the tunnel to permit safer operation of heavy equipment on the surface and also to protect the remainder of the system in the event that the "bathtub" fails.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, the Times reported that the TA would pump concrete into the tunnels so that it would be able to support the weight above it without collapsing. Right now, there's debris in the tunnel, but I imagine there are unsupported parts of the street, or also places that are ideal for placement of large cranes which will need the support that a hollow tunnel (with missing supports) cannot support.
Plus, In case no one else has stated this yet (or you just haven't read my posts): The TA is going to fill the IRT tunnels with concrete. Any hope of any sort of 'fast tracking' on those tunnels is unlikely. Someone here said something about it being done quicker than usual because the tunnel would be off-limits to passengers. But the TA won't even begin work on the tunnels for some time, certainly not before most, if not all, of the rubble is cleared from the site, and that could take time.
Only one relatively short stretch of tunnel will be (or maybe already has been) filled with concrete. It's a couple of hundred feet in length or thereabouts, located to the north of the Cortland Street IRT station. Obviously, removing the concrete will slow reconstruction, but I don't imagine that the delays would be anything drastic.
If anything significantly delays reconstruction, it won't be the removal of the rubble so much as waiting for the city, Port Authority and others to decide what will replace the WTC. It seems reasonable that the reconstructed station would and should be integrated into the replacement building(s).
I suppose the MTA could decide to rebuild the tunnel as soon as possible in order to restore service to South Ferry, building just an unfinished station shell at Cortland Street; the station could be completed later on once WTC replacement plans are developed.
Obviously, removing the concrete will slow reconstruction, but I don't imagine that the delays would be anything drastic.
So, what you're saying is that removing roughly a football field's length worth of concrete won't slow construction? SOLID concrete. I think that that could slow construction by a month or more, especially since the tunnel is right next to (on) the site.
I suppose the MTA could decide to rebuild the tunnel as soon as possible in order to restore service to South Ferry, building just an unfinished station shell at Cortland Street; the station could be completed later on once WTC replacement plans are developed.
I don't think that's gonna happen...
And it's two places, not one, where concrete has to be poured.
David
"Only one relatively short stretch of tunnel will be (or maybe already has been) filled with concrete. "
I don't think an entire section of tunnel was "filled" with concrete. I think the concrete "plug" is just a thick wall to seal off the tunnel so if the bathtub fails, the subway system doesn't get flooded.
I saw a thing on the news several days ago showing square thick wooden posts supporting the tunnel ceilings in case of a collapse. The posts were in the center of the track and there clearly was a row of them.
Bill "Newkirk"
"The TA is going to fill the IRT tunnels with
concrete."
From what I have read they were going to plug the tunnels in case they flood to prevent the whole system from flooding. This won't take very long to undo. This past spring the MBTA plugged the Red Line tunnel under Fort point channel and closed it for a weekend. Service was back to normal Monday morning. This was done because they were putting another tunnel on top of the tunnel and there was a chance of puncture. The T also has a portable plug for a green line portal that is used whenever there is a large amount of rain. In short "unplugging a tunnel shouldn't take very long to do.
MSNBC was showing a FEMA video today of engineers inspecting the retaing wall underground. There is concern that if it fails the river will be doing the flooding. I checked the FEMA site and couldn't find any more info.
Ummm, what were they inspecting? The bathtub wall (what is holding back the water of the Hudson and the land on which the World Financial Center) is pretty much impossible to inspect (it's not something you can just walk up to. It was a part of the WTC foundation, and, uh, you can't walk up to that right now.
An area had been cleared and a narrow cut had been made in the slab. They said that they were using remote cameras for the inspection. There was a gap between 2 vertical walls that the video showed as being deeper then it could resolve.
It was FEMA video, so I guess it was valid The narrative was by MSNBC though so who knows.
Oh, that's probably true. They most likely dropped a camera equpiied robot into the debris and surveyed a spot on the wall.
No, I meant they would fill the tunnels with concrete.
Presumably, the plugs will be put in at both ends of the WTC "bathtub" and will likely remain in place until the MTA decides in conjunction with the Port Authority and structural engineers what they want to do about reopening the PATH and 1/9 lines.
If they decide to try a quick reopening, possibly to restore 1/9 South Ferry access, then they'll probably uncover the tunnel between the plugs once the site is deemed safe, put in some sort of temporary ceiling and run the trains through without stopping at Cortlandt. If they decide to wait until some sort of overall plan for the area is finalized, then it will take a lot longer. Option 1 would benefit Staten Islanders sooner, while Option 2 would probably be better in the long run, since it would give the MTA, PA and the architects more time to think about what they want to do with the layout and give them a chance to do it without having to worry about maintaining train service, which was the case 30 years ago.
NOT PLUGS!!! THEIR FILLING A STRETCH OF TUNNEL WITH CONCRETE!!!
And, you want to put up a temporary ceiling so that there is through service to South Ferry? You do realize that the tunnel is severely damaged. You can't just 'put a roof on it and call it a day'.
When they clear the debris there will be nothing above the site until there is a decision made by all involved what will go on the grounds -- no water lines, no sewer lines, no electrical lines, no phone lines, nothing. More than likely, the entire site from Vescey to Liberty, and from Trinity to West will also be fenced off to all but authoized personnel, with the possible exception of a temporary PATH entrance.
Because of that, a "down and dirty" quick temporary fix will be possible, along with a temporary roof, because the tunnel will not be getting in the way of anything until new construction is started. But the MTA and PA may decide to do nothing until plans are finalized for the site, which would leave the 1/9 section dormant for a longer time.
Whats the height of the tunnel in there, and what is the clearence. If there is about 3 feet a truss could be used that would be supported by columns on either side.
I would guess, track to roof, that the original Cortlandt St. station tunnel was about 16 feet or so in height, with another 20 feet or so above that to street level, since the tunnel is two levels below ground.
I don't know the car heights on that line. How much gap does it leave?
Car heights are a little over 12 feet, I believe, but someone else may be able to provide the exact specs from trucks to roofline.
The whole tunnel has been damaged. You can't just build some sort of cheap structure as a roof. You could build a whole new structure, but that would have to be pretty much just as strong as a permanent structure. Basically, you can't do any of that until the rubble is cleared and the bathtub walls are definately secure. It would be silly to build a temporary structure just for the sake of a few staten island riders and then be forced to re-build it later.
If South ferry is that crowded, you can run a 3 car shuttle between there and Bowling Green.
It may be a matter of image, showing that we are recovering rapidly. Many of the beams being recovered are still straight and true, so it isn't like they don't have a lot of material.
Beams being recovered from what?
The Towers. Many of the beams showing on the FEMA videos appear to be sound and not fire damage. Beside, new steel beams and columns are not a significant cost item in comparison to clearing the debris
All that stuff must be melted. It might look alright, but there are likely cracks in it. It's unsafe to use.
The walls would have to be as strong as a regular tunnel, but if the whole WTC site is off limits to all vehicluar and pedestrian traffic, allowances can be made for the roof through that area.
As far as should it be done, like I said, in the long run, a co-ordinated WTC underground plan would be better for the MTA and PATH, but a close gubernatorial election next year -- there are a lot of Republicans on Staten Island -- could push Pataki to push the Port Authority and Kalikow to come up with a quick fix for South Ferry passengers.
Again, there's a real quick fix: shuttle to Bowling Green. Building some sort of 'temporary tunnel' is dumb.
If South ferry is that crowded, you can run a 3 car shuttle between there and Bowling Green.
This idea already has been discussed at some length and found to be wanting. Moreover, running a shuttle from South Ferry to Bowling Green would be of relatively little help to those Staten Island Ferry riders heading to destinations along the Seventh Avenue IRT, given the inconvenience of the Lexington/Seventh Avenue transfer at Fulton BN.
But the MTA and PA may decide to do nothing until plans are finalized for the site, which would leave the 1/9 section dormant for a longer time.
As I mentioned in a different thread, one alternative would be for the MTA to build just a station shell at Cortlandt when it restores the tunnel. Trains would then be able to access South Ferry and Rector, with Cortlandt to be finished at a later date once the WTC replacement plans are finalized. Doing so would allow better integration of Cortlandt Street into the new WTC.
There'll be no pressing need for a station at Cortlandt so long as the WTC site remains vacant, not with Rector just a short walk away.
"The TA is going to fill the IRT tunnels with concrete."
That probably has been done by now. I have always said that the Cortlandt St station won't return for YEARS. Even PATH probably has concrete "plugs" in their river tubes until this situation with the "bathtub" has been resolved.
In other words, keep your fingers crossed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Would any engineering strategy would of kept the metal from buckling outwards?
As far as the buckled column goes, some good heavy jacks should be abto relieve the strain ( if there is any, asit may have deformed due to the initial kinetic energy release and may not still be under compression.
The collum has to be replaced, though :)
I'm still looking for the measurements of one of them IRT ones (height, I section, etc). might calc out the load required to buckle it just for yuck value...
"As far as the buckled column goes, some good heavy jacks should be abto relieve the strain ( if there is any, asit may have deformed due to the initial kinetic energy release and may not still be under compression."
This is not correct... on many levels.
I will start with the definition of strain.
Strain is the change in length with respect to initial length, or Dl/l. When the column buckled, it underwent strain. Strain isn't continuing unless the beam is continuing to buckle. By using hydraulic jacks, you aren't relieving any strain. The damage has already been done.
You are making the layman's common (and understandable) mistake of confusing stress and strain, since the two words are incorrectly interchanged in common parlance. For your information, stress is load per unit area (F/A). The buckled columns are (presumably still) under stress, and using hydraulic jacks will relieve stress, not strain.
Now for why the existing columns cannot be reused. To understand why, you really need a knowledge of the stress versus strain relationship in steel.
Initially, there is a linear relationship between stress and strain. Stress always equals strain times a constant (referred to as the modulus of elasticity or Young's modulus). You apply 1 unit of stress, you get one unit of strain (times the constant). You apply 2 units of stress, you get two units of strain (times the constant). The important part is that when you're on this linear part of the curve, there will be no permanent deformation (strain) of the steel once the stress is removed. Even though the steel may have undergone some deformation under applied stress, once that stress is removed, the steel returns to it's initial shape. The recovery is 100%; it's kind of like a rubber band.
After you exceed the elastic limit, the last point of the linear relationship, steel undergoes plastic strain. The steel will no longer recover completely (it will recover some, but this is complex), and the same stress from before now produces far more strain. The steel now behaves like plastic wrap; once you stretch it out, it never returns to it's original shape. The columns that buckled in the station clearly have undergone plastic deformation, in that they did not return to their original position.
So what does all this mean? In a nutshell, once the columns have deformed plastically, their load carrying ability is greatly reduced. It would be horrific engineering practice to reuse these columns to get trains running through the tunnel segment again. Furthermore, deformation of the beams strongly suggests deformation of the ceiling above as well as other parts of the tunnel. The ceiling, being made of concrete, would have cracked under deformation, and would also require replacement. The matte could have suffered damage, and from my limited work around subway tunnels, I don’t think the early tunnel segments used piles.
The bottom line is: don't hold your breath for reopening.
Most or all of the tunnel and station will need to be systematically demolished and replaced – no jacking up of the ceiling or patching up of the walls. It may be quicker and less expensive to just replace the whole thing. I don’t know if the exact same alignment will be used, or if the tunnel will be constructed to A or B division standards, but I'm guessing 2005 at the earliest before trains start running through there.
MATT-2AV
"NOBODY KNOCKS OVER A BUILDING IN MY TOWN!"
That portion of the IRT was part of the Dual Contracts, and AFAIK all Dual Contracts tunnels were built to B division specifications. OTOH the signals and trip arms were installed to accommodate IRT rolling stock.
Excellent explanation, Matt - I've had an interest in stress analysis for a number of years but don't have the engineering background to explain it nearly as well as you did. Incidentally, if you haven't read Henry Petroski's To Engineer Is Human you should; I think you'd enjoy it. Technical enough for an engineer, well-written enough for a layman like myself - it's what sparked my interest in the subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you very much. I truly appreciate your comments, and I enjoyed taking the time to write the post.
I have written down the title of the book, and I'm going to look into getting myself a copy! If you are interested in statics (the study of a body at rest) or it's counterpart mechanics (the stody of a body in motion), courses are available at local community colleges, and require just math and physics backgrounds, possibly only at the high school level.
MATT-2AV
I took this picture in 1979 and can't figure out where the heck I was! Does the location look familiar to anyone?
That's Hammel's Wye on the Rockaway Peninsula. The (A) to Far Rockaway (the lower track branching off) and the (S) to Rockaway Park (taken from the back of the Rockaway Park train).
The structure elevated on top right is the (S) heading north to Broad Channel and eventually the "el". The northbound (A) joins the (S) not seen.
Bill "NewkirkK
Thanks. What had me baffled was that I was at the back of the train, which is most certainly NOT where I would expect to have been.
--Tim
Looks like the wye at the Rockaways.
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
Great shot ... next time, try not to place your sunglasses in front of the lense ;-)
Actually, the picture has faded quite a bit over the years. A little Photoshop magic helped bring it back some, but there wasn't much to work with.
"Actually, the picture has faded quite a bit over the years. A little Photoshop magic helped bring it back some, but there wasn't much to work with."
Was this shot with Ektachrome 200 35mm film ? That film does give that warmish kinda hue.
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, that is possible. I found the pix alone without negatives, so they could be reprints from slides.
I'd say Hammel's Wye.
Easy.Hammels Wye after the bridge.
I wonder when they will be testing the R-142's on the 5 line. But if anyone knows in when this will be happening Please let me know. This is just driving me crazy. Thanks!
Since the cars are long past their testing phase, the placement of R-142 cars on the #5 would most likely be an assignment rather than a test. In any case, be patient...it's coming...
David
I saw a set of R-142s in 5 service on Tuesday AM. As the redbirds march into the sea, you can expect more and more.
Wow!
Well, as of two weeks ago there hadn't been any notices posted for the crews based at East 180 to begin qualification classes for the new equipment.
One would think that would be a prerequisite to any type of full-time assignment.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It's Coming??????
It's already happened, on 3 occassions to date, I have seen R-142s on the (5) line and its always around the same time: 7:30pm at Borough Hall Station heading Flatbush Bound.
If you want to ride it I guess that is the best place to stand as I have no clue as to the other timepoints along the line.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
My understanding is that the operation of R-142s on the #5 thus far is not an assignment, but rather the borrowing of #2 equipment. I stand by my statement.
David
thats maybe what it is i saw that 6681-6685/6691-6695 testing for the <5> and the next on the 2
Great, that maybe all well and true. I was just stating the several times that I seen the 142s on the (5) which its just a little suspect that its the same trip. Maybe because that crew is the only crew on the (5), trained on the cars, Who really knows but the people at 180th, Dyre and 239th!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
For what I underdtand is that all Crews in the IRT are now trainded on the R142's so only have one crew won;t be the problem. The TA might just want one set of intervile to have the train so it can be better montered for any problems with the systems.
Robert
No, not all crews in the A division are trained for the R142 yet. I believe the reason people are seeing the R142 on the 5 at that particular time is because either that 5 line crew are R142 qualified or they got qualified crew from extra board to make that trip and test the train on the 5 line.
OK not all Crew, but most you would have to say. About 85% maybe.
Robert
If I'm not mistaken there have been reports of the R-142s running on the #4 line.
#3 West End Jeff
Only once that I know about, and that was during last year's World (Subway) Series. The other thing I know is that there are R-142s currently stored at Concourse.
I guess that those trains of R-142s are used as spares just in case they're needed or they use them during the rush hours only.
#3 West End Jeff
no. just need to be stored somewhere
r142man
2 all the way
until then
Let's add them to the roster. Delivered!
-Stef
I heard on ch.5 news that a building had cracks in it at 47th and 8th and might collapse. I wonder if this has affected the subway?
I heard on ch.5 news that a building had cracks in it at 47th and 8th and might collapse. I wonder if this has affected the subway?
The news reports probably would have said so if subway service were affected. Which isn't to say that there couldn't be service interruptions if the building weakens further. That would definitely not be a good thing!
First they had us go slow, then the rerouted E's via 6th. They even sent me via 63rd. (not sure why). (I'm not sure what they did with A & C at that point.)
Probably the trains were rerouted over 63St because of congestion. And I'd say the A and C trains had a slow speed order 10 MPH to cut down the vibrations from knocking down the rest of the building. And probably still doing that now as my watch says 5:10 PM
That means no A trains screaming downhill from 50th to 42nd for now. I was on an A train once which crept past 50th St. In fact, it even came to a stop in the station. My mother actually thought this was our stop. I replied, uh, no.
If the City decides that it has to come down it will be in a controlled fashion. They will not let it fall on its own.
They might have the trains go 10 MPH in the area for a while to reduce vibrations and halt service temporarily if/when they demolish the building.
Thankfully they can reroute the trains down 6th Av and back to 8th Av after W4th if need be.
I guess it happened while we were commenting.
http://wcbs880.com/apnews/2001/10/04/n/HeadlineNews/AP-NYC/20011004005494/news_html
The mess is all cleaned up now... I walked close to the site today at lunchtime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read an item in the Daily News that the Post Office has yanked its approval for the new
Penn Station in the Farley Building, saying it needs the office space because of 9/11/01.
In my humble opinion...don't you believe it. The P.O. never had any intention of giving up the Farley;
9/11/01 can be used as a convenient excuse....
Actually, I never much liked the idea of placing the new Penn on 9th Avenue. I'd rather move the
Garden elsewhere and build a new Penn where it used to be...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Amtrak connection at a new Penn Station in the Farley P.O. building really would have been a pain-in-the-butt for people not taking taxis to the station, and espcially for anyone trying to connect with luggage from the LIRR, which would now be almost 1 1/2 blocks away under the proposed set-up.
Unfortunately, the Garden probably isn't going anywhere, such as 11th Ave.-33rd St., until the No. 7 train is extended over to the Javits Center, and that's probably on the back burner as well for a while (unless they came up with the idea of running the 7 from 34th-11th Ave. down to the WTC. Then it could be included as part of the reconstruction plan and could qualify for some of the federal emergency funds).
Move MSG to the site of the WTC. Then build a real train station.
GOOD The "New Penn" is nothing but a waste of money and an uneeded facelift for Amtrak's operations. I'd rather the money go to fixing the damm tunnels / track level first, then a new station.
They never should have torn down the original Penn Station in the first place.
Steve,
That is always easy to say after it happens.
In fact, the Landmarks Preservation Commission was formed (or reformed - depending on how you look at it politically)as a result of the destruction to prevent such things from happening again. The LPC is one of the reasons that Grand Central Terminal remains the outstanding strutire that it is (part of the thanks go to the late Jackie Onasis who spearheaded the effort).
You're absolutely right.
Isaac Stern, the violinist died recently. He singlehandedly saved Carnegie Hall from the wrecking ball. No effort was made to save the old Met, however.
It would be interesting if MSG would move. I think from past news headlines, I heard that MSG would move to 31 St. and 11 Av. which would give the land MSG is on back to Penn Station. Well, this won't happen until the WTC is rebuilt, and I think it won't happen for another 10 to 15 years after that. The WTC complex won't be finished with the rebuilding for about 10 years.
Anyone know if Amtrak F40PH 286 is still in service as a locomotive or has she been converted into a F40 bag?
saw this on News 10[Capitol district news] at 10 pm tonite
You know what? Unless Trump is going to rebuild it with his money, he can stop saying what he wants for the WTC. (wait, we've all been doing that!)
2000 ft tall tower 150 floors and a memorial at the plaza for all the folks whom lost there lives,massive subway transfer underneth and so on. it went on and on with the designers ,big wiggs wioth money etc....
I wouldn't dare him...remember the skating rink in Central Park?
Heh. Saw that on WTEN but was popping between that and 13 since channel 13's "Mobil George" bagged a terrorist at his gas station and I know George. Missed the details though since I was busy.
Well ... all we need to hear from now is George Steingrabber and how he'll fit a stadium into the bathtub and all our local boobies will be hatched. Maybe the Donald will build a casino there and REALLY cheese off the fundamentalists.
All this assumes, of course, that The Donald has any ownership/lease rights to the WTC site, which he doesn't. And I don't expect the people involved to treat this like the Wollman Rink fiasco 20 years ago and just say, "Oh, we can't get it done, it's hopeless. Only the great Donald Trump can rebuild the World Trade Center site." If that happens, then you'll really know the USA is down the tubes...
Heh. Agreed. But really ... have we heard from Steingrabber yet? :)
UHM, Steinbrennar donated $1 million to the relief fund. -Nick
Glad to hear it and apologies for any unintended slight - between him and Trump though routinely lining up at the public trough, was wondering.
And you realize, of course, that he will want it called "Trump Towers".
Yes, an amusing lack of creativity in his ediface complex. :)
Are any of the R12 or R14 work cars still around or is the only one in the Transit Museum?
There are still some left. I one two the other day running the a train of hopper cars.
Robert
I've been riding the 7 for the past few days and have been seeing the marker lights off on most of the cars: 9356, 9373, 9429, 9575, 9691 and 9746 just to name a few. Anybody know why this is the case?
Are they gonna fix this problem or are they leaving this until they head to 207 St for their final fate?
#9537 7 Flushing Express
It is possible that these cars were usually in the middle of a consist. The marker lights (I assume you mean the ones on the top) are manually operated by throwing a switch to turn them on. The T/O may not have realized that they were not on.
Marker Lights (top) or End Of Train (EOT) lights (Red ones in the middle)?
Got me.
I was thinking the lights along
the side of the cardoors... some of
us call them 'indication lights'
which blink repeatedly (yellow).
Tho if we're talking the bulkhead
lights, some nice lookin green-white
settings on the Pelham Lines..
The marker lights aren't used for their intended purpose anymore, so it's a moot point. I did see a 2 train last year with its marker lights set to white-red.
I have a recent photo of that on my website (www.orenstransitpage.com). The marker lights are not of much use unless they are using them along side the LCL EXP signs, which I know they aren't.
The local/express signs indicated if the final field shunt step was enabled (exp) or disabled (local). With the final field shunt step permanently disabled, that feature has become meaningless.
When I see the marker lights on the "Redirds" they are often set to red.
#3 West End Jeff
I was on a 5 train once. They were set to other than red-red . The T/O tried to change the colors and could not. He griped about Transit's not fixing the marker lights. (My thought- the cars are going to the great subway in the sky- why fix the unessential lights.)
It's one of the many 7 train redbirds' unique features.
In a small corner of a larger article by Pete Donohue and Corky Siemaszko in the Daily News it reads:
"The biggest casualty is the new V train, which would run from Forest Hills, Queens to Second Avenue on the lower East Side. It was supposed to start rolling Nov. 11 and relieve crowding on the Queens Blvd. corridor trains, particularly on the E and F. "It's going to be delayed, probably a matter of weeks, but we won't really know for how long until we see when we can get the N and R lines back," Trasnit Authority spokesman Al O'Leary said."
More stalling. I knew. I just knew it.
Have you heard yet? There's this big problem in lower manhattan. Rumors are saying that the Twin Towers collapsed and that the whole subway is still messed up. I've also heard that A good deal of "E" trains have lost a lot of passengers. Maybe that's why the connection is opening late. It's a wild guess, but it just might be right...
Good for you. You've heard the E has lost a whole lot of passengers?
Ride the E train to Manhattan and see for yourself. Instead of sitting on your computer all day, come up to the Queens Blvd line, and see for yourself. I challenge you to try and get on a E train at Roosevelt going s/b in the AM rush. Devote 10% of the time you spend on your computer to observing for yourself what is really going on, and you'd understand why Queens residents are so frustrated.
This is the second time the 63rd connector has been delayed. To blame everything on the WTC attack is a sin.
Let's see if they use the 63rd connector this weekend. I bet they do. If they do, then why can't they use it during the week?
Ugh. This is disgusting.
1. You know what. Pretend that the 63rd st tunnel isn't there. Just pretend it isn't. Then, you have the service pattern that has been Queens Plaza for years.
2. How the hell can you complain about this? How the hell can you? The whole N/R lines are out of comission. I think that it's well within reason to delay the opening of the "V" train. And yes, it can be blamed on the WTC attack.
3. You know, your a riot LuchAAA. You complain that when trains are re-routed through 63rd on weekends, there are ridiculous delays of upwards to a week (And, I'm going back to when they would shut down the express tracks and run ONLY F and R trains on weekend headways) and now, you want them to do it on weekdays? Obviously, there are still problems that need to be worked out.
4. I refuse to "devote 10% of the time I spend on my computer" to go ride the Queens Blvd. line. But, why don't you try and spend 10% of the time you spend bashing the TA to show some common sense. You swear up 'n' down that you know everything possible about the friggin' 63rd connector, and that there's not a damn thing hindering it's opening. Yet, you don't know any more than I do about the work that is going on on the area.
I can't believe that you're actually complaining about the TA postponing it because of WTC. I really can't believe that.
I'm not complaining about the WTC. I'm just saying, if they use the WTC as an excuse, it's wrong. If they can use the 63rd connector on weekends, they can use it on weekdays.
Now get your ass over to the Queens Blvd corridor, see what is happening for yourself, or shut the f^ck up about it.
If they can use the 63rd connector on weekends, they can use it on weekdays.
What did I say in my last post in regard to that? Re-read it.
Now get your ass over to the Queens Blvd corridor, see what is happening for yourself, or shut the f^ck up about it.
I already know what Queens Blvd is like, I rode it twice. I know what the crowding is like. I understand that the 63rd st connector will help relieve some of the crowding. But I can't understand how you can sit up here and complain about this. Queens Blvd. has survived without the V for decades. It can survive a little longer without it as well.
Look, your position is that the TA is delaying the opening of the 63rd connector due to the WTC attack.
My position is that if the WTC disaster had any impact on the 63rd connector, then it would be closed completely, and not even used on weekends.
But why argue, the delay is only a couple of weeks? Right?
Can't we all just get along....................
Yes, we can. Put everytime I post something slightly critical of the TA, certain people feel the need to attack me personally, and make LuchAAA a subject heading, which is unnecessary. If I disagree with a TA decision, there is no need to attack me personally like J trainloco has clearly done.
There's a difference between attacking ones ideas and attacking someone.
Either way, our boy Zman has told us the reason for the connector delay, and it is related to the WTC attacks.
1) guess what? it is there.
2) with the N and R down, there is MORE reason to open the line on time, if not immediately. The crowding is dangerous, period.
3&4) ya'all need to take personal little grunts like this to email.
>>ya'all need to take personal little grunts like this to email.<<
Please don't tell me an' LuchAAA that we 'need to take personal grunts like this to e-mail'. I do not use my e-mail as a source for people to to discuss rail issues.
It's still obviously dealing with a transit issue with which anyone can discuss, so why should LuchAAA and myself hog up our knowledge?
The workers and equipment on the 63rd Street Project probably did not work for several days due to the attack. I think the WTC has a factor in the delay.
I think if the V was to make it's debut next month, there would be alot of confusion in the subway. And at this time the subways right now are much too crowded for alot of confused costomers. Imagine 5th or Lex on 53 with people waiting for an F train and nothing comes except E and V trains. I can hear the customers griping now.
Transit will do the best job they can think of to announce the changes in service. But there will always be someone who hasn't heard. Even if they read the red service posters every day for a few weeks plastered on walls and billboards.
Tell me about it. This westside "GO" have been going on for 3 weeks and yet I still have people ask me if the 2 is going local and see people waiting at Chambers St local paltforms waiting for 1 trains. Now I make annoucements urging people to get new subway maps and or brochures on the updated changes.
Is the new updated maps still available in any subway stations? I called service status hotline yesterday to obtain one by mail. They say they don't have. They only have the July 2001 version.
I picked one up at Willets Pt yesterday.
A case of new maps was delivered to each booth. If your station does not have it call the name on a poster near the booth.
The poster says:
(Name of Person)
is the Field Manager(or Superintendent) of this station.
If you have any questions or concerns please call (they give the phone number) or write (and give an address.)
Station Supervisors are responsible for the delivery of maps to each of their booths. Maybe your booth ran out? Did you try the booth at your destination.
Stations has already informed us all via the EBCS OA feature to issue the 9/19/01 red borded map and no prior version is to be issued. One supervisor (I am a Lunch Relief) Called me and asked how many maps we had nad I told her we only had old maps, instructed me to pitch all old maps and to have the S/A call her upon return from lunch.
Thanks for the tip. I just got one from stillwell ave station. Now I'm waiting for the 10/1 version so I could that to my collection.
Be aware that since the 10/1 does not show Chambers IND as being open, I expect yet another map -maybe 10/5/01.
Chambers St has been reopened?
I thought #1 trains went there just to turn around. That by the way has been one of the bigger mistakes made by TA. I realise at night the #4 makes the trip to New Lots. So the #1 is not needed. But to have the #1 turning at Chambers causes backups on the line. What TA should do is have the #1 trains turned at Atlantic Ave. By there the #2 trains can be switched to local and allow the turnback to be done without a sense of rush.
Nights, I think the #1 is turned at 14th.
And, the Chambers St. IRT station has been re-opened.
I haven't worked on the westside line in 2 weeks. #2 trains were going to Brooklyn and #1 trains were going out of service at Franklin. Going light to Chambers. Turning and going back uptown and going back into service at Franklin. Even at 12:30 am it was causing a 10-15 minute wait for the #1 to get out of the pocket. Maybe things have changed.
This is the story for the West Side. The No.3 Line is running Express going from 148 Street to 14 Street from around 5AM to Midnight. The No.2 Line is suppose to run Lacal from 96 Street to Chamber but they let some run Express from 96 St to Time Square during the day and at Night from 96 St to Chambers. I learned that the hard way. I was at 34 Street at around Midnight going to Chambers and a bunch of people asked me if the No.2 stops here on the Local. I said yes but however the No.2 pulled into 14 Street on the Express. Now the people back at 34 Street had to wait 20 more Minutes for the Next one. Now when in the same situation I tell my Passengers to wait for the No.2 train at 96,72, Times Sq, 14, or Chambers.
As for the No.1 Line during the AM Rush Hour 2 trains go to Flatbush and some end at Chambers Street and the rest go to New Lots. At Night the No.1 train run in service to Chambers street.
During the midnight hours, the #1 run from 242St to Chambers Street. Passengers are discharged at Chambers and the train returns uptown in service. Passengers used the 2 for continued service into Bklyn. It is just like the recent 1 line GO below Chambers before the WTC situation.
Turning the trains at Chambers at Night is ok there is not much of a back up. The worst I have seen was a No.2 held outside Chambers for about 5 Minutes but that all.
Well I guess I don't have to tell you what people on the #2 said while waiting for the #1 to move out. Grant you I was on the train once.
When the trains were dicharging at Frankins street that cause more of the delays because the crew had to clean out the train and then when the train got to Chambers the T/O had to change ends and take it North where the next crew would take the train.
I know like over on the No.1 Line the No.2 Line crews are not happy. I think the No.2 has it the worst out of the whole deal.
This delay can be 100% attributed to the WTC disaster.
The TA has delayed the start of the new pick because (one of the reasons) the jobs that were being picked by crews were based on regular schedules (N, R service, J to Broad Street, etc.).
If it weren't for the WTC incident, the pick would have been implemented as scheduled.
As of now, no word as to when the new pick comes into effect.
Also the whole A Div. will be repicking and rumor has it the new jobs will go into Effect in Dec. But will have to wait and see.
A Division repick? That I can certainly understand.
Fair to say that the 1 will be a super "junior" line???
Yes and you know I will be forced to say on the No.1 Line. I will have to pick something because I only missed the last one by 7 people. The jobs I have now on the No.1 Line are from the Bid sheets. I wish I never put that bid in.
Yeah, but how were you supposed to know that the services would have such a radical change?
If I were you, when the repick comes around for you, if there is even one Vacation Relief slot left, GRAB IT!!!
Both the 1 and 2 lines will be the last to get pick out.
IMHO that TA is not doing their best to deal with this WTC disaster. Sure they could be a whole lot worsem but there's lots of room for improvement. We need the V now more than ever.
>>We need the V now more than ever.<<
This puzzles me. It would seem to me that less people are riding the subway. Afterall, most of lower manhattan near that site remains closed, and that was a substantial amount of jobs. A lot of jobs have been relocated outside NYC.
According to press reports, subway riding is 97% of what it was prior to the attack. They didn't break down the riding by line or line segment, though, and I don't have the information available. Some segments (ones that parallel closed ones) are likely more crowded, while others may be less crowded and the closed ones obviously are less crowded because they're closed :-).
"ZMan179"'s explanation of the reasons for the delay in the startup of V service is substantially correct. It'll happen, and soon, but not exactly when it was originally planned to happen.
David
What could NYCT have done/be doing differently, given the constraints it's dealing with (some because of the destruction of infrastructure, others because of capacity limitations on what's left, and still others because of security issues that The Powers That Be continue to believe exist)?
David
I agree. From the perspective of customer service, the TA's plan is just about the best one possible given the circumstances. Every alternative I've read either provides worse service (like making local passengers transfer or closing their stations outright) or subjects passengers to unnecessary confusion (like keeping the Z and sending it somewhere other than the J). Some stations are even getting better service than before, like the West Side IRT local stations (in theory, at least), many of which have needed a major service boost for years.
I'd like to see the V on November 11, but subway passengers have already had to deal with the major service changes on July 22 and the emergency reroutes now. That's enough confusion for one year. The one mistake the TA made, IMO, was planning for two service changes this year. Either the 63rd Street work should have been fast-tracked (sorry) so both changes could happen on July 22 or NYCDOT should have been asked to wait until November to take back the north side of the bridge. (Perhaps both of these were attempted, in which case the TA really isn't to blame here.)
I have my complaints about the TA, but they did their homework this time. (I'm also gratified to have found that the TA's plan is nearly identical to the one I had come up with a day or two before it was announced.)
They're never going to run it, are they? They're going to seal up the connection and cancel all other subway projects forever to cover the expense of it.
:) Andrew
Has the next "pick" for this yet? Can some of our T/O friends confirm that this is no longer available to pick?
--Mark
and just what, in the blue hell, is the justification for this? the line doesn't go anywhere near WTC, and considering the shit service as of late, is ratehr desperately needed.
Looks like the message from city hall and the TA is this: "use mass transit, be crammed into dangerous conditions, and kow well that even the slight things we could do to omprove service will be held away from you for no viable reason at all."
if it were a headline, it'd be "TA/City to riders: drop dead".
I got the 0745 Stillwell Qunicy (I think) at Kings Hwy, Dekalb held us at Church for a connection so we were on the Markers of the express from that point on.
We crawled over the bridge, there was no way the T/O could work the timers since we were so close to a W they stuck in front of us. We sat at X168 for some reason waiting to go local. Then the crawl up Broadway.
Thank goodness we get a nice run through the 60th St. Tube (btw there is a Trainee T/O running the train). All of a sudden we pass the X4 Ball going to GD2 track and the radio blares "Quincy in the cut come in to the Plaza, what are your call letters?".
Then it is the question you always hear "745 Stillwell Quincy why are you late?"
The supervising T/O answeredthat we were held at Church. While he was distracted with that, the trainee blew by flashing yellow laterns, stood on the horn and brake at the same time (thank goodness). Slowed for the MOW guys and we were so slow into Queens Plaza the WD's never flashed (hehe).
There has to be something done to speed up Broadway service. Hour and a half to get to work when it used to take 50 minutes with the Q/F on 6th Ave.
It's only going to get worse!!!!!!!!!
The Queens Blvd line is a crime against humanity. Now they have all sorts of obstacles to slow down trains entering Queens Plaza.
s/b express trains crawl into QP.
Same for n/b locals.
The reason? The city is determined to slow down service at any cost.
Someone told me safety is a concern. Maybe they're right. Maybe all the derailments at QP, resulting in hundreds of fatalities, and thousands of injuries has forced the city to slow down trains in this area.
Or maybe some genius with nothing better to do, just wants to look important, and creates precautions where they're not needed, just so the TA looks like they're on top of things.
If you only had a goddamn brain, you might actually be able to think, eh?
Let's take a look at CANAL ST, on the 8th AV IND!
Southbound express trains have a WD in their faces. If a C is crossing onto the express track A trains aren't even allowed to enter the station. Why? Because a terrible accident killed 2million people. No, because reason says the following 2 things:
1. Safety is #1. If you get to work in time, but have lost an arm, that's not too helpful.
2. If an operator on the A line got careless, and the only stop-arm to prevent the A from hitting the C crossing ahead of it was at the front of the station, an A train could potentially ram the C crossing in front of it.
NOW THEN...
If we look at the present Queens Plaza plan, there are no trains using the Diamond crossovers at Queens Plaza. But when the V begins operation, northbound trains will will have to cross in front of the N/B locals and southbound trains will have to cross in front of the s/b expresses. OH MY GOD! Those are the trains that you said were slowed down! Maybe the TA is trying to prevent an accident from occuring there. Maybe they're saying: "Safety there is a big concern."
But of course, they aren't are they LuchAAA. They're simply doing this to piss you off. Don't worry. I'm sure we can try to convince Train Dude to use his clout and get those "Safety devices" removed at once!
Your reference to Train Dude shows what a little bottom boy sissy you are. Train Dude has nothing to do with this little sparring match we're in. Yet you try to drag him into it because you're exactly what I described you as in the first sentence.
What don't you try to find out what LIRR train he takes to/from work everyday, and kneel down in front of him.
Your reference to Train Dude shows what a little bottom boy sissy you are.
Here we go! Let's drop the facts totally and just make a post of insults.
Train Dude has nothing to do with this little sparring match we're in. Yet you try to drag him into it because you're exactly what I described you as in the first sentence.
Let's look closely at what I said About Train Dude. I said that we could get him to remove the WD's at Queens Plaza. Now:
1. "I was just kidding"
2. Did I drag him into it? Did I say: "I'm sure Train Dude can support my facts"?
3. Do you honestly think I wanted him to remove the WD's on Queens Plaza (or whatever they are)?
4. Do you have a fear that Train Dude would support what I said?
5. Did I mention that I was joking about removing the WD's on Queens Plaza?
What don't you try to find out what LIRR train he takes to/from work everyday, and kneel down in front of him.
You know, believe it or not I was involved in an argument of sorts with Train Dude. I mentioned that it was impossible for someone to realease the dead man's handle while operating an NYC train, and guess what the top of the next post in the thread (T. Dude's) said?:
WRONGGGG!!!!!!!
I don't worship or fear Train Dude, I look at him as another subtalker, kinda like you. Except, he actually knows what he's talking about. You just put the first thing that pops into your head on this page.
I have nothing further to say, and apparently, neither do you. If you did, you would have not just dropped the argument and started insulting me. If you suddenly get some sort of 'second wind' and find some way to backup your empty argument, shout me a holla'. Otherwise, just shut up.
Have a nice evening;
J trainloco.
Understand one thing, and you or any subtalker can look back to the beginning of this, it was you who insulted me first.
Every time I am slightly critical of the TA, you jump in as though you somehow represent the TA, or if my complaints are somehow directed at you.
By creating the topic about me,(The TA is out to get LuchAAA) as if any subtalker needs to see LuchAAA as a topic, shows that you still have an unnatural obsession with me, and my posts. It's funny when Train Dude does it, and people kind of expect it from him now. Heck, looking back, it was obvious that my response to his LIRR post would undoubtedly cause him to come back strong at me.
BUT YOU ARE NOT TRAIN DUDE. You're not as funny. You're not as witty. And you certainly are not as informed as he is. So stop trying to be him. Leave my name out of the subject headings in the future. That's Train Dude's job.
I guess your post will be hanging behind my desk in the AM.
All I did was complain that the Queens Blvd trains are getting slower and slower. I mentioned the signals going into QB s/b tracks, and the n/b local track, which now has WD's.
J train starts calling me an idiot, and insulting me. I didn't say anything bad about the TA, or J train. I did not deserve to be attacked the way I was. He went out of his way to get attention from subtalkers. I'm glad so few responded to his post featuring my name in the subject.
why Didn't YOU take YOUR name out of the Subject line.
While Jtrainloco usually posts informative subject matter, he does resort to name calling when he is unbale to stress a point in a normal debate fashion. Just ask not to be called names and that should end it.
As far as the Queens Blvd IND goes, the real test with these WDs will come when the "V" kicks in, and you have the probable bottleneck at the scissors crossover at Queens Plaza. They are going to have to time arrivals to the minute in the rush hour headways.
Bottlenecking. Delays. Whatever.
It does not matter anymore. What the f^ck am I complaining about???????????????? I must be nuts!!!
Look, a T/O off the street makes like $20+ an hour. Throw in OT, PM differential, etc.. and you've got a guy making $50,000 in his first year.
After five years, I bet he's in the $60,000 range.
No College required!!!!!! Great deal.
I know people who graduate respectable universities, take out a college loan, and have to pay it off for years, while making less than a starting T/O to start. After 5 years, they are lucky to make $85,000. But look at the price they pay.
So why should I waste time complaining about this shit? There is no right answer to any of it. TA employees are doing quite well, most passengers know nothing more than the fact that it seems to take more and more time to get to/from the city each day, and I'm complaining about shit that means nothing.
>>>>>>>>What the f^ck am I complaining about???????????????? I must be nuts!!!
Aw heck, we've been saying that for months.
>>>>>>>>Look, a T/O off the street makes like $20+ an hour. Throw in OT, PM differential, etc.. and you've got a guy making $50,000 in his first year. After five years, I bet he's in the $60,000 range. No College required!!!!!! Great deal.
You can make $60,000 in your first year with OT. Decide to really bust your a** and you can make up to $75,000.
As far as the college thing, that's what I was thinking about 10-12 years ago. Nowadays, I wish that I had gone to college for the frat parties, girls.........and learning (almost forgot that one). I'll need it later on if I attempt to go into management, but so far it wouldn't have done me any good up to this point.
>>>>>>>>.........and I'm complaining about shit that means nothing.
That's why fellow SubTalkers get on your case. You ALWAYS complain. Don't get me wrong, there's a time for complaining (sometimes that's the only way to get things straightened out), just not EVERY time.
This time I didn't even start complaining
Some guy from Brooklyn complained about how his trip to Queens now takes over an hour, when it used to take 50min. I simply said that this is a trend that will spread throughout the entire system over the next few years, as it looks like the TA is slowing trains down every where you look.
Remember the 7 leaving QP s/b? Now there's a slow timer leaving QP. That train used to fly into the city. It's just one example, but I'm sure a T/O can think of more.
I'm done complaining about GO's, WD's, timers, "track work" etc..
I just want to know why the L line is getting R-143's. Traditionally, I always thought that trains went to lines like the L, M, J to finish their life. Now these lines seem to be getting brand new trains. Why? OPTO capabilities?
The L gets the 143's first because the L will be the first line to receive Communication-Based Train-Control (CBTC). This system in a nutshell means that the train will operate itself (like in Washington & San Francisco), and the T/O will be relegated to just operating the doors (and taking over manual operations in the event of a malfunction).
Bottom line for the TA: CBTC completely eliminates C/R's therefore meaning labor cost savings for the TA. Also, OPTO will be implemented on the M weekend shuttle upon arrival of the 143's.
I think you are confusing CBTC with ATO. CBTC, as I understand it, will still require an active train operator. CBTC is supposed to determine the conditions surrounding the train and adjust the top speed accordingly. The operator will still have to operate the train in according tot he CBTC commands.
As to why the L line? I suppose that it had characteristics deemed necessary to 'prove' the abilities of CBTC technology in NYC.
CBTC is also going in on the Concourse Line. Work has begun on the Master tower and signal control rooms at Bedford park Blvd. It should be operational before the R-160s arrive.
>>>>>>>>>>>...........As I understand it, will still require an active train operator. CBTC is supposed to determine the conditions surrounding the train and adjust the top speed accordingly. The operator will still have to operate the train in according tot he CBTC commands.
Okay, now I'm wayyyyyyyy confused. Is the sole purpose of CBTC just to eliminate standard signal blocks and replace them with moving blocks? Or will it also operate the train?. I'm lost.
CBTC is suppose to elimanate most wayside signals you see today.
The CBTC system monitors conditions ahead and set the maxium allowable speed accodingly. It allows trains to follow closer and therefore increaseing service.
The other thing is ATO- automantic train operation. I dont think that ATO will be implimented on the TA system anytime soon. MOst of the time what happens is the operator press a button and the control of the train is directed to a central computer system. The system controls train speed, braking, all without operator input.
This is what is used on transit systems like PATCO in Philly and the Baltimore Metro.
So for example, I'm operating the train under CBTC. When I take full power (aka wrapping around), the train will only go as fast as the computers tell it to. If the speed limit is 15, the train will only go as fast as 15 even though the controller is in full power?
Depends on the system. On the new R-160 which im sure is drive-by-wire, the CBTC code which is most likely tranmitted via the running rail, is read by the train's computer. The computer determines the max speed and therefore limits the speed to that. On the older trains where there is a direct machanical connection, most likely a alarm will go off if the speed is exceeded. Again this is only a assumtion.
This link to the Federal Transit Administration explains CBTC.
The L doesn't share trackage with any other line. The 7 doesn't either but since it was decided not to make Corona R142 compatible (yet), they couldn't do it there.
[As to why the L line? I suppose that it had characteristics deemed necessary to 'prove' the abilities of CBTC technology in NYC.]
The L is an easy line to institute CBTC because of it's 'isolated' characteristics as an R/T line. Also it's single track running in either direction also makes for simplistic operation (it's like a 'giant shuttle line').
BMTman
R/T line? What does that mean?
Rapid Transit
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, I am an electronics communications professional. MY career, my employment and my future was in the dumps. I had heard the radio ads for Car Inspector many times, plunked down my fifty bucks and applied. Found that Signal Maintainer window was closed, sent an email......and the test was opened to me IF I made an immediate personal appearance with the completed forms and another fifty bucks. Cool, CBTC New Tech. Well, passed that test. Months later, passed CI test. Three weeks later, process for CI began. Now I'm CI, started with R142 shoe alignment and doing Redbird Carbody. Hey, it's good work with good people.
The CBTC project with R143s is at hold...the software and 2.4 gig transponders costing 137 Million Bucks will be replaced with a system developed by the European manufacturers of high speed rail utilizing inductive links every 100'......when the world is at peace. The 'L' project will go down in history with the R110's and LED bulb replacements. Nothing like getting down and dirty oiling Redbird door linkages. 'Let MTA get you there...Car Inspectors assure your safety.' Peter
I know people who graduate respectable universities, take out a college loan, and have to pay it off for years, while making less than a starting T/O to start. After 5 years, they are lucky to make $85,000. But look at the price they pay.
Not sure how old you are, but I probably graduated from college before you were born... and I don't make 85K, despite working in management for a major corporation, heading up a project team of over 100 people.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
he does resort to name calling when he is unbale to stress a point in a normal debate fashion.
Wha' chu talkin' 'bout stupid! (just kidding)
It's not that I couldn't stress this point. His point was that there was no reason to put in the WD's at Queens Plaza because accidents are not commonplace. My point is that if he actually looked around the system, that's not the only place where WD's have been installed, and the TA actually has some slight idea of what they're doing. The thing is sometimes he just makes me angry when he just starts referring to the TA as a bunch of idiots. Now if LuchAAA had proof for something, then I wouldn't be so 'angry'. But calling the TA a bunch of idiots is calling quite a few guys (including my dad) I know idiots.
>>As far as the Queens Blvd IND goes, the real test with these WDs will come when the "V" kicks in, and you have the probable bottleneck at the scissors crossover at Queens Plaza. They are going to have to time arrivals to the minute in the rush hour headways.<<
Just think IND 8th av Canal st station.
Hey idiot! Show my where I call the TA a bunch of idiots! I complained about the trains moving slower and slower everyday. I did not resort to name calling. I did not even imply that the TA is a bunch of idiots. So stop telling people that I said things I never said. Stick to the facts.
>>I did not even imply that the TA is a bunch of idiots<<
AND WHERE DID I CALL YOU AN IDIOT!?!? You have stated in posts that I have referred to you as an idiot in this thread. Now then, you implied that the TA did not know what they were doing and had no reason to put WD's on Queens Blvd. I'd have to say you think they must be morons then, eh?
>>Stick to the facts.<<
Make sure you do the same.
>>J train starts calling me an idiot, and insulting me<<
No. If you look back, I clearly said that you should try to use your goddamn brain, because, well you should. I didn't call you a name. I didn't say that you were stupid. I said that you should try using your brain. I'm sure that you're a smart man when you actually think before you speak.
>>He went out of his way to get attention from subtalkers.<<
No. I could really care less about other people responding to it. I titled the post what the content matter was about. Evidently, it disturbs you to see your handle in the index, so I changed the title again.
>>and you or any subtalker can look back to the beginning of this, it was you who insulted me first.<<
And of course, it's you who started up with the crap about how New York City Transit is as dumb as they come. They know what the hell they're doing.
>>Every time I am slightly critical of the TA, you jump in as though you somehow represent the TA, or if my complaints are somehow directed at you.<<
You're right. I'm sorry if I jump on you everytime you make a generalization about the management of my father's job. Considering he's practically a part of that management...
>>By creating the topic about me,(The TA is out to get LuchAAA) as if any subtalker needs to see LuchAAA as a topic, shows that you still have an unnatural obsession with me, and my posts. It's funny when Train Dude does it, and people kind of expect it from him now. Heck, looking back, it was obvious that my response to his LIRR post would undoubtedly cause him to come back strong at me.<<
Good God LuchAAA did it bother you that much to see it up there? Fine, I changed it. But know this: 1. You're name is not the only one to appear in titles. 2. Train Dude is not the only person to put peoples names in headings. Recently, I had a more relaxed debate with American Pig about the BMT. The original title was "The BMT is back". I changed it to "The BMT is whack" and eventually "The BMT is a sham" Of course, you know what happened. Somebody changed it to "J trainloco is a sham". Sorry LuchAAA, There are plenty of others who either get their names put in titles (popular ones were American Pig, MrX2001 and Train Dude). Probably more than you. Hell, I've probably been in more titles than you.
>>BUT YOU ARE NOT TRAIN DUDE. You're not as funny. You're not as witty. And you certainly are not as informed as he is. So stop trying to be him. Leave my name out of the subject headings in the future. That's Train Dude's job.<<
I just explained about the names, and How train Dude is not the only person to do this. So, Again, i'll stress: ANYONE can put ANYBODY'S handle in a title. Sorry if you didn't know that.
And as far as being informed, your one to talk. Now, considering where my father works, how informed do you think I am(about MOW more-so than RTO)
Now, considering where my father works, how informed do you think I am(about MOW more-so than RTO)
About as well-informed as I was 20 years ago when my father worked in MOW - which is to say, not very.
>>About as well-informed as I was 20 years ago when my father worked in MOW - which is to say, not very.<<
Guess it's good that we don't have the same father then.
There you go again. Show me where I say the NYCTA is as dumb as they come. SHOW US! Just because I complain about some GO's or WD's?
This is taken from post 272648:
The Queens Blvd line is a crime against humanity. Now they have all sorts of obstacles to slow down trains entering Queens Plaza.
The reason? The city is determined to slow down service at any cost.
Someone told me safety is a concern. Maybe they're right. Maybe all the derailments at QP, resulting in hundreds of fatalities, and thousands of injuries has forced the city to slow down trains in this area.
Or maybe some genius with nothing better to do, just wants to look important, and creates precautions where they're not needed, just so the TA looks like they're on top of things.
Look closely at the 4th paragraph (doesn't really matter, you insult the TA in every paragraph.) I'd say you think they're either dumb or sadistic.
"Someone told me safety is a concern. Maybe they're right. Maybe all the derailments at QP, resulting in hundreds of fatalities,
and thousands of injuries has forced the city to slow down trains in this area.
Or maybe some genius with nothing better to do, just wants to look important, and creates precautions where they're not
needed, just so the TA looks like they're on top of things. "
You know, you're absolutely right.
And here's another example of stupid, unnecessary "precautions." Why on earth does the system need block signals? I mean, how when do trains rear end each other? This is just some stupid guys at the TA who think they know how to run a subway system delaying trains to make it look like they're on top of things. All this because they want to slow down service to demonstrate their overbearing power over commuters. What a bunch of stupid know-it-all jerks.
(Sarcasm goes off now.) The point of a precaution is to prevent disasters, and it would seem better to prevent them before even one occurs. And maybe, just maybe, the TA has a reason for the delays it may be causing on the Queens Blvd. line. I do, however, agree with you that it would be much better if they made their reasons absolutely clear.
Seth
That's why I stick to the good, fast and reliable 7 train. Sure the Redbirds are old, but at least they get you to your destination in the same day!
Did I miss something while I was on vacation? What derailments and fatalities are we talking about?
Being a transplant to the NW coast I have a good deal of trouble finding information on the status of the subway system since the 11th. This site has been a valuble source of information. The news seems to focus on ground zero from above. There has been very little on what is the situation below. Please keep up the good work in bringing any further info and pictures to light.
We're always glad to help out. That's what we're here for.
Bill "Newkirk"
Story about 2 incidents affecting subway service this morning.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Partial collapse"
!!!!
Don't you just hate when you wake up, and there's no wall anymore!
Yes, I could see it putting a crimp in your day.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry about the one word message but:
Where?
Click the Link.
I found it, thanks. I didn't see the link when I first looked at your posting
From: http://www.mbta.com/newsinfo/press/pressview.cfm#609
The Board of Directors for the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority today voted to
accept an offer from the City of Boston for 6.7 acres of land along Eagle Street in East Boston.
Abutting Chelsea Creek, the parcel is being sold to the City's Department of Neighborhood
Development for $1.4 million.
Secretary of Transportation Kevin J. Sullivan, who serves as chairman of the board, says the
transaction is a winner for everyone involved. "The MBTA strengthens its commitment to increase
non-fare revenue while the City of Boston gets a prime piece of real estate for a variety important
uses," said Sullivan. The City has proposed to utilize the property for a Public Work facility, a
Police Station, an Emergency Medical Services Station, and a public park.
Owned by the MBTA since 1894, the property was originally developed as a power generating
substation and car barn for electric trolleys. After decades of use as a bus garage and
maintenance facility, the buildings were closed and subsequently demolished.
MBTA General Manager Robert H. Prince, Jr. says the land transfer is another example of the
T's desire to be a good neighbor. "Once it's been determined that a piece of property is no longer
needed for transit purposes, we look at ways to benefit the public's interest," said Prince. "The
City's plans for this parcel certainly meet that criteria."
Also today, T Directors voted to transfer - at no charge - three quarters of a mile of abandoned
railroad right-of-way to the Town of Acton. The Town plans to use the land for public
recreational purposes.
alright it's Boston but They are still good photos
http://www.mbta.com/newsinfo/geninfo/projects/transitway/s00cn09.cfm
Does anyone have an update on the work being done at Exchange Place? As of 10/3/01 I saw a pumping company and a railroad construction company's vehicles parked outside, but no update on what is going on or a projected reopening date.
Even if they finish the pumping and any cleanup, what kind of service could they run there? A shuttle between Grove and Exchange?
Defintely wouldn't be between just Grove and Exchange. Hoboken & Exchange, with psgrs from Newark transfer at Newport seems more practical. Perhaps a Exchange-JSQ shuttle as well. This would solve the problem of getting people from Jersey to the JC waterfront office complexes. The traffic down there is a nightmare. Companies are running shuttle buses between the Exchange Place area and Grove, and between Ex. Pl. and Hoboken, these could be done away with. I figure use four-car trains with motormen at each end to facilitate quick turnaround (pull in eastbound, reverse into pocket, reverse into westbound track, reverse heading west to Hoboken or JSQ.)
Dave,
Considering what is happening at Newport starting at the end of January 2002. Do you think it is going to be a practical use of the station?
For those who don't know - J.P. Morgan Chase & Co (for which both Dave (as a consultant) and myself (27 years with the firm) work for) will be moving about 2500 people from downtown Manhattan to 2 new buildings in the Newport area. This will start January 2002 and continue to the end of the year. Even if half the people use PATH, the station is going to be a nightmare.
Hmm true. A possibility would be to operate service like this:
Optimal:
1. HOB-33
2. HOB-WTC
3. JSQ-33
4. NWK-WTC
Current:
1. HOB-33
2. NWK-33
3. HOB-JSQ
Proposed (with side platform at Newport open)
1. HOB-33 all times
2. NWK-33 all times
3. HOB-EX.PL. weekday daytime
4. JSQ-EX.PL. weekday daytime
5. JSQ-EX.PL-HOB round robin (off peak)
No transfer needed for passengers coming from Newark, Hoboken, or 33rd Street to reach Newport like current service; no transfer at Newport from Hoboken/Newark to reach Exchange Place (keeping those people off the platforms at Newport); People coming FROM 33rd TO Exchange Place and vice versa would have to transfer at Newport on the same platform, or encouraged to change at Grove instead. How does that sound?
P.S. Newport was already a nightmare before 9/11 during morning rush. Chase would not have made it *too* much worse since it would be all "reverse" commuting. Newport has enough stairways that exiting passengers have enough pathways out (no pun intended)
Anyone got any idea how to get people in and out of Grove Street?
I live nearby and the sheer volume of people trying to exit the station (presumably to go to Exchange Place) is frightening at rush hour. If it was anyplace else, the fire dept. would shut it down.
I heard a car inspector talking about a walled-off exit at one end of the platform which was being considered (before 9/11) to be put back in use. He also spoke of PATH running 10-car trains to WTC. I guess that's out of the question for a little while.
I'm a PATH rider whose commute used to be somewhat pleasant, and now is just downright yucky.
PPS
I was a daily Grove commuter myself (I live on Wayne St.). Haven't used it during rush hour since the attack. The exit at the far end isn't much use, it would surface in the middle of the intersection of Columbus Avenue and Marin Blvd. You might have heard them considering to open that exit space up to lengthen the platforms but I don't really see how it could be used as an exit again.
Regarding that exit, you can see the detail of it here. It is a bit tight where it came up to street level, as the two downtown tubes move together just past Marin (shown as Henderson on this drawing). But there should be sufficient clearance above the tubes to extend the walkway to the eastern edge of the road, since they are 2 flights down at that point and turning downward.
The redevelopment plan for the block formerly occupied by the PATH yard has a bonus provision if an entrance is provided at the northeast corner of Marin and Columbus (formerly Henderson and Railroad). Presumably the author checked with the Port Authority and determined the geometrics were doable.
Any one have any idea on what to do to improve access/egress from Christopher Street. The other day entering traffic backed up 3 blocks.
Looks like the PA has a solution(?) for exiting traffic in the AM rush: There is no entry to the station allowed:
Christopher St.
This is a temporary measure, The notice says "improvements are planned."
How do you plan to turn trains at Exchange Place?
wayne
NEVER MIND! I just read a previous post explaining this. Sounds do-able, but mighty unwieldy.
wayne
Interesting. Which downtown buildings are these? I worked for Manny Hanny back in the days before it became part of Chemical etc at 55 Water Street. With all the mergers JPM/Chase must have a couple of billion square feet:
1 New York Plaza, 4 New York Plaza, 55 Water Street, Chase Plaza, 60 Wall St. What did I miss?
John
Basically we are letting the leases at 55 Water and 52 Broadway expire. The people @ 60 Wall are going to new buildings on Park Av (don't ask). Most of the depts at 2 Chase Plaza will go to Newport and will be replaced by Retail Banking support groups.
Chase sold 1 New York Plaza years ago.
BTW - none of this is secret information. Most of the Real Estate market already knows this.
Yeah, the New York Times has run several (well, at least two) articles about JP Morgan Chase's real estate dealings since the announcement of the merger. That's how I find out things even though I work there! :-)
I knpw they're plugging up those PATH tunnels at WTC. Will they ever be reopened?
Eric D. Smith
Lets put it this way, the city (and the NYC/NJ region) is not going to survive in the long run without the PATH, not with 70,000 people a day formerly riding into WTC. So, I think it's a safe bet the answer is yes.
I figure use four-car trains with motormen at each end to facilitate quick turnaround (pull in eastbound, reverse into pocket, reverse into westbound track, reverse heading west to Hoboken or JSQ.)
PATH trains don't have motormen, they have Engineers. Of course there are no FRA rules saying that you can have a quanified engineer operate as the conductor and then switch jobs w/ another qualified engineer, even mid trip.
The real concearn is what all that water is doing to the PATH tubes under the Hudson. H2O and Iron don't work well together.
H2O and Iron don't work well together.
It isn't as bad as all that. Some of the ring segments are steel, BTW. Anyway, the tunnels are in the muck at the bottom of the river, not in rock (for the most part) and thus the outsides have been exposed to brine over the years.
This picture is of a ring joint of a similar age and construction. This is after over 30 years of exposure to the same water. The tunnel it is in is still safe and in use. So I wouldn't worry much about the short-term effects of water on the tunnels themselves. Of course, all of the electrical stuff (lighting, signals, phones) needs to be replaced, as do the ejector pumps. And the trackbed needs to be evaluated.
Dougherty's "Tracks" book shows Tunnel-L just as a trailing siding if heading eastbound to Exchange Place station from Grove Street. I suppose its purpose was to get a sick train out of the way. It does not connect to the westbound track according to this book, and could not be used to relay trains.
If that's the case, any use would be limited to two AM rush hour trains: the 1st into the siding, the other to leave in the station until rush hour ends, and then they get backed out and wrong-railed to Grove Street.
The function of the pocket is much "older" than you think and was indeed connected to both eastbound and westbound tracks. In the days of the PRR terminal at Exchange Place (surface) the passenger load between there and Hudson Terminal was a lot more than now requiring short turn trains between the two stations. The pocket track was used to turn these trains back to New York. The track connection to the pocket from the Westbound track was removed a while ago but the tunnel is still there.
How hard would it be to put back ? That could be the answer to all this crowding at Pavonia, Grove Street, and now a local private bus (something with Greenville in the name) is to start running Grove Street shuttles for 50 cents.
FYI it is Lafayette and Greenville.
Mike
"Mr MAss Transit"
Assuming the station is dried out enough for maintenance crews, it shouldn't take that long, if all the parts needed are available in the maintenance yard stock. However, if you've read any of my previous posts on the subject, it sits on a rather nasty lazy S and thus needs a full set of guards. So there may not be a stock set of parts that could be used.
Also, from my previous posts, it isn't useful unless it connects to both the eastbound and westbound track. In order to avoid a huge number of out-of-service moves, it needs to be re-engineered. The easiest solution so far is the one I floated, to tie the stub end of the pocket into the westbound track, so trains don't need to go out of service - they'd just pull into Exchange, passengers would get off/on, and the train would change ends, operate west out of Exchange into the pocket, then proceed through the new connection into the westbound tunnel.
Note that the above precludes any service to Hoboken/33rd, as the tracks to Pavonia/Newport split to the *outside* of the tracks to Grove.
If any of this isn't clear, somebody should say "Scan!" and I'll find the appropriate blueprint and scan the relevant part.
olay. please scan. Thank you in advance
Ok. Here's a quick-n-dirty snap with my cheezy Olympus camera. The blueprint is huge (20' x 3', give-or-take). West is left (natural orientation) and the station itself is barely visible to the extreme right. Tunnels E and F turn northward off the left edge of the picture to join up with the tunnels heading to Pavonia from Grove. Tunnels G and H run westward to Grove. Tunnel L is the pocket, and what I propose is to tie the left end of it into Tunnel G. Trains would arrive on H, pull into the station, drop off and pick up, and pull back out onto L and through L to G.
For an overview of how all the underground tunnels are laid out, look at this Port Authority map from 1965.
Thank you, It's very interesting.
Thanks for the PATH map. It should be archived here at nycsubway.org, if it isn't already. It's *wonderful*.
Regarding the pocket - unless there has been a massive amount of work since 9/11, it isn't usable. First, there is no switch on the eastbound side, though there is rail in the pocket itself. That's not too much work to fix. But there's a signal shed and electrical distribution blocking the roadbed from the westbound side into the pocket which would need to be moved.
Plus, the move would be a PITA - operate into Exchange, change ends to move into the pocket, change ends to move out of the pocket, change ends to proceed westbound. The only way this would make sense would be to have a pair of hostlers, one at each end, and let them deal with jockeying the train around while the engineer and conductor walk to the other side of the station and wait for the train to be placed. And wait... and wait...
See my earlier post regarding an alternative, connecting the stub end of the pocket to the westbound track and running service only on the eastbound platform at Exchange.
Of course, one of the two reasons the pocket was disconnected was due to a fire in there some years ago, with some PCB contamination (or so I'm told by a reliable source). That would have to be evaluated as well. The other reason is that the double switches on the S-curve were somewhat dangerous.
The use of the pump truck is obvious. I wonder if the RR construction co. is going to lay track in the stub-end tunnel (the "Penn Pocket"). Of course that would require moving the equipment presently in the tunnel.
Yesterday's Jersey Journal quotes Hudson County officials as saying there will be no Exchange Place PATH service for at least two years!!
from today's Boston Herald
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/toxi10042001.htm
From today's Boston Herald
http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/mbta10042001.htm
From today Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/277/south/Abutters_want_toxic_soil_cleaned_up_quickly_by_T+.shtml
From today's Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/277/metro/AG_sues_T_over_pollution+.shtml
From today's Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/277/metro/AG_sues_T_over_pollution+.shtml
.
It may be that the "bathtub" foundation is not in danger, after all. This improves the prognosis regarding rebuilding the foundation and repairing the subways...
Point your browsers at: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nyslur042398317oct04.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
Thanks for posting that, Ron.
Mueser acts as a sub on our big jobs, doing the pile and excavation design, although I don't think I've ever worked with Dan Hahn. I know that company well; they've got an office down on Third Avenue. Mueser's getting a lot of high profile emergency work. We've got a lot of work too, but it's more behind the scenes (200,000 ft3 of soil to be dredged out of the Hudson). Everyon in the community is pulling together on this one,
MATT-2AV
"NOBODY KNOCKS OVER A BUILDING IN MY TOWN!"
It is also good to see that they will undertake installation of additional reinforcement anyway. This should make the bathtub doubly safe.
Why does everyone refer to the WTC as the bathtub?
Never mind, I read the article and it said why.
I have some good news too. I visited my wife's office at the Federal Reserve. She now has a view of the Hudson River.
Well, I guess that really isn't good news. But there was no smoke in her building (last Friday was awful), and the pile of rubble is much, much smaller.
I apologize if this topic was already addressed...but I was wondering if anybody knew the reasoning behind the changes on the 7th ave line since the attacks? To my understanding, 2 and 3 trains are terminating at Chambers St. and running local from Chambers to 14th. And the 1 train is now running into Brooklyn.
So for us Brooklynites, it seems there is no longer direct express service up the West side. Does anyone know why these service changes were made? Why couldn't they just terminate the 1-9 at Chambers instead of S. Ferry, and keep the 2-3 service as is?
Does anyone know for how long this change will be in effect?
WS
Unless something changed in the past day of so, the 2 is running normal execpt that it is now a local for its entire length in Manhattan. The 3 is the the only 7th Avenue Express, running from its normal northern terminal at 148 and terminating on the south end at 14th Sreet (though I did see a few roll signs the other day that had Chambers Street as the Southern Terminal). The 1 is running local as usual but is extended to New Lots to replace the 3 in Brooklyn.
I don't have any inside knowledge, but I think the reasons are:
1) Obviously the #1 south of Chambers is out of service for a long time, so the 1 needs a place to turn around, so it is extened to Brooklyn using the New Lots terminal for turning around.
2) The express track is the only practical way to turn trains on 7th Ave (you cannot turn trains on the local tracks, you would be crossing from outside track to outside, and aside from the tie ups that would cause, I don't even know if the switchs in place would allow for it), the 3 continues as an express and uses the 14th street express tracks for turning around.
3) The 2 is a local since the express tracks are tied up for turning 3's, moving the 2 from express to local between 34 and 14 would just add to the confusion. I know there is a bit of a problem crossing 2's on to the local at 96, but its better than doing both a cross over of 2 from exp to local AND turning 3's at one station.
Hmm..that makes sense I think. But I still don't understand why they can't just run the 3 into Brooklyn as before, instead of terminating them at 14th (or Chambers).
I'm guessing is that there would be too much service into Brooklyn causing backups. #1 and #3 would be sharing the same tracks between
14th and New Lots (unless one of them turn back at Utica Avenue
like the #4).
Michael
You don't have that many cars or that much capacity.
The reason why is the following:
1. All 3 trains cannot run into Brooklyn.
2. The train that terminates in manhattan must be an express. At first it was the 1, but that required ALL 1 trains to cross infront of ALL 2/3 trains and vice-versa. Now, the only train that crosses at 96th is the 2 train, and it's similar to the situation at canal st on the ACE (in other words, it causes relatively few tie-ups.
I agree with Piggo.
Well summarized! :)
the 2 is running express uptown in manhattan. i caught one yesterday
r142man
2 all the way
until then
Lucky YOU!
N Broadway Line
NOT IN SERVICE!
That was a fluke, but I'm glad you lucked out.
I was on the 2 the other day going downtown, and at 34th St. the C/R asked the T/O over the PA what the next stop was! There was some confusion between them while they had an entire converstaion over the PA about the next stop. Everyone found that amusing.
I, the 1/9 at half capacity.
will atlantic ave be rebuilt connecting all trains in the area
and will the cross-brooklyn line ever be built?
Any new construction for the subway will probably be delayed.
Atlantic Ave is being rebuilt (as evidence by the construction there).
As for a cross-Brooklyn line, probably not. Brooklyn is pretty much covered with trains (with exception of Mill Basin and the area by Kings Plaza). Unless this "line" includes these areas, you will wait a while before anything is bulit.
Newsday.com has posted RealAudio tapes of the NYPD and FDNY response to the WTC collapse. This one has reports of people trapped in various subway stations and the searches that ensued.
I'll settle for a transcript. The link was too busy for me to access.
Much of the dialogue on the tape was difficult to understand. From what I could make out, there were reports of people trapped on trains or in stations at Park Place on the 2/3 and Wall Street on the 4/5. Something was said about Chambers Street on the IND, but I couldn't quite make it out. Finally, near the end of the 4-minute tape, there was a report saying that Rector Street (probably 1/9) had been searched and was clear.
horrible to hear ! .......almost could not bear it !!........omg ...!!
Would it be possible, once the WTC area is rebuilt, that there would be a transfer between the IRT subway (once the station re-opens, not for a few years), with the IND and BMT subways?
A free transfer between Cortlandt-R with Cortlandt-1 and Chambers/WTC-E&A would be a good idea. You better write to the MTA about it. We in here might say it's a great idea. But very few of us actualy work in the offices. By the time it filters its way upstairs, the lines will have been reopened and the idea long since discarded.
Anybody have a web address for someone above a VP for the subway?
There should be a massive mass transit facility there, to accomodate the following:
- Any prudent subway transfers, such as your suggestion.
- The 2nd Ave. subway.
- PATH
- LIRR direct downtown access.
- (If feasible) Metro-North
- light rail or shuttle bus service from ferries from NJ and Brooklyn
I reserve the right to expand the above-wish list at any given time. The more mass transit, the better. The two person per car minimum for driving into Manhattan during the morning rush should be made permanent.
And above all this, as I said before - a new World Trade Center, the same or bigger as before.
How about this for service changes on Nov. 11:
Reopen the Bergen Ave lower level on the Culver Line.
Run the E from Jamaica Center to Kings Highway on the Culver Line. The E runs normally from Jamaica Center to West 4th then from West 4th it would run on the F. It would operate express from Bergen-Kings Hwy. Weekday AM hours it would run express to Manhattan between Kings Hwy and Church Ave. Weekday PM express from Manhattan between Church and Kings Hwy. Except late nights E runs express between Church and Bergen.
F runs normally except there would be no trains terminating at Kings Hwy. It's replaced by the E.
Run the G between Court Square and Church Ave. G would go local from Bergen to Church terminating at Church Ave.
Run the J between Jamaica Center and Brighton Beach. The J could continue local to Brighton Beach instead of 95th Street.
Eliminate the "Q Diamond". It's a confusing train.
Run the Q express from Coney Island all the way to 179. It would run express on the Brighton and Broadway lines (57th-Canal), then through the 63rd Street tunnel and continue as an express all the way to 179 Street.
Bring back the R. It could operate normally between Continental and Canal Street making all stops. Then it could go express in Brooklyn between Pacific and 59th before terminating at 95th Street. The R would skip DeKalb.
Run the V local from Continental Av to 2nd Ave on the F Line via the 63rd street tunnel and the 6th Avenue Local.
I actually even checked the stops. I think there are enough trains to run it this way.
>>Eliminate the "Q Diamond". It's a confusing train.
Run the Q express from Coney Island all the way to 179. It would run express on the Brighton and Broadway lines (57th-Canal), then through the 63rd Street tunnel and continue as an express all the way to 179 Street. <<
Did I miss something? If the Q is express on the Brighton line then what train handles the local stops on the Brighton?
As far Bergen lower level is concerned, the lower level station is in no condition to be used on any regular basis.
Also the tower hasn't been fully repaired for all moves required through the lower level of Bergen.
According to his proposal, the J would run on the Brighton line.
But that doesn't make to much sense because that is a LOOOONG ride (for a local train to run at ALL times) from Jamaica Center to Brighton Beach/Coney Island. The amount of trains to have decent service on the line would be more than what is available.
When I wrote my last letter, I meant Nov. 11 changes in light of the World Trade Center Disaster. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure there IS an express to local and vice-versa track switch on the 4th Avenue line south of 59th Street on both sides. This would enable R Trains to run express in Brooklyn coming and going to Bay Ridge.
The J train going local on the Brighton Line to Brighton Beach would make three more stops than it does now going to 95th. Adding a couple of extra J trains (R-40's from the Q-diamond) could make up for the difference. The J still wouldn't be the longest ride in the system. The 1 going from 242 to New Lots has that distinction. At late nights the J could terminate at Broad and the Q could make all stops in Brooklyn to Coney Island.
The W would still run express between 36th and Pacific, skip DeKalb then go local after Canal to Astoria. But the Q could still go express even on nights and weekends in Manhattan. This would keep the existence of an Broadway Express, without a "Q Diamond". This would also give Queens Blvd riders a legitimate express train in Manhattan, something they don't have right now.
It's a shame that they haven't cleaned up the lower level of Bergen Street or fixed the tower because having a Culver Express would definitely help right about now. There is a stretch where the Sea Beach Line is about 7 blocks from the Culver. Having a Culver Express could lure some Sea Beach riders from the slower M train and maybe ease some crowding on that line.
I admit that my biggest worry about this plan would be the M train on 4th Avenue. How crowded would that train get?
"Having a Culver Express could lure some Sea Beach riders from the slower M train and maybe ease some crowding on that line."
This statement assumes that there is crowding on the Sea Beach Line. I've been riding M trains northbound from DeKalb Avenue in the morning and southbound to DeKalb Avenue in the afternoon. They've got plenty of room at DeKalb Avenue -- some people even can get seats there. If there's "crowding," it's probably from people connecting to/from W trains at 36th Street, in which case the thing's no more than a glorified shuttle (no offense to "Sea Beach Fred" or his fans intended -- I just calls 'em as I sees 'em).
David
You're right, there isn't much of a crowd on the Sea Beach Line. I should have just said "lure some riders from the Sea Beach Line".
Fair enough, but my point in addressing the issue at all (which I should have made clear before) is that if the Sea Beach M trains aren't crowded, I don't see why anyone need bother trying to pull people off them and onto another service (even a new/restored one, as the Culver Express would be) at all.
David
Sorry it took a while to answer.
The general idea was to get some Sea Beach riders (and maybe to a lesser extent some Brighton Riders) quicker access to midtown Manhattan. I felt that having an express on the Culver Line would give them an option. The M only goes to lower manhattan, and sometimes takes its time getting there. The hypothetical R 4th Ave Express on the other hand, would still have to cross the Manhattan Bridge, which can get very slow. An E train running through the Rutgers Tunnel on the F line is quicker. I'll be honest, I would like to see the Culver Express return personally because it appeared to be a good run.
As for the R express train delaying the M as some have stated, doesn't delays already happen once in a while with the J and M both trying to go local northbound after 59th Street in Brooklyn? If they both get to the 59th Street area, then they can switch one train first and then hold it at 59th for the other. On the southbound side, they can have the express leave first. The whole thing should take about 3 minutes. Since were dealing with only two lines here, more often than not there won't be delays.
By the way, I do not live anywhere near Bay Ridge (nor Staten Island). I only chose to bring back the R instead of the N because the W normally runs on the N in Queens, which it still does now. The Q does not normally run on the R in Queens. This R express would only last until lower Manhattan service return on the Broadway Line. Then the N would return as the 4th Ave Exp.
Sorry for the long response.
Having services cross each other is not a good idea from an operational standpoint. Yes, the Sea Beach can run local from 59th Street with relative ease (though the line defaults to express). However, I'd have to check to see whether the Fourth Avenue spur from 95th Street has a switch to the express track at 59th Street (I don't remember offhand). Remember also that whatever comes northward from 59th Street has to merge with the West End service(s) south of 36th Street, and being off schedule and (potentially) out of sequence at 59th Street can throw things off at 36th Street as well. Frankly, riding on both the Sea Beach and the Fourth Avenue (below 59th Street) is pretty light, relatively speaking, so I'm not sure it's worth all this at all.
As for the Culver Express, right now it's not feasible (north of, say, Church Avenue, that is) due to the lack of a fully functional Bergen Street Interlocking (the fire we've been talking about on SubTalk for the past couple of years...). By the time Bergen Street Interlocking is repaired, all of this will be moot anyway.
David
The Bay Ridge Branch of the 4th Ave line has switches south of 59th Street that would enable R Trains to go express. Another reason I wanted to have the R go express instead of local in Brooklyn is to avoid the utter chaos that would take place if it went local after the Manhattan Bridge. The only other place where you could switch to the 4th Ave local off the Manhattan Bridge is south of DeKalb, and it would HAVE to stop at DeKalb. This would have slowed down Q, M, and J trains and made a LOT of people upset. The R running express isn't so much about the passengers as it is about the switches available.
Good point about the R delaying the W, though at times the N Express used to slow down the W. Timing would have to be pinpoint to avoid delays. As for the Culver Express, can't the MTA, which pumped out gallons and gallons of water out of Franklin Street and once repaired a large hole on the Astoria line in a short period of time, clean up a station and fix a tower? I think Culver riders would be happy with a Culver Express and particularly an express that would directly take them to Port Authority and Penn Station. It would give them more options. Also people who get on the F's lower East Side stops, particularly Delancey Street, would probably not have to switch at West 4th for 8th Avenue service unless they go north of 50th Street.
There is a "X" diamond crossover south of 59 Street in Brooklyn on 2 and 4 tracks.
For the PM homebound rush, the only operational problem I see with the M running on the Sea Beach line is the passenger behavior issue of "I wanna be in the car closest to the stairway at the station where I get off." After 36th St. the only stations with a staircase/exit not by the first car are: 45th St., 20th Ave., and 86th St. Once you get to the open cut of the Sea Beach line, the only stations without an exit in the rear are Eighth Ave., 18th Ave., 20th Ave. and 86th St. So the first and last cars get hammered with a large load while the middle cars have lots of room. The 8 cars could handle the loading a bit better if some passengers would just give in and ride the middle cars.
I am just a rider that happens to love the NYC subway system, so I don't want to pretend to be an expert; but I frequent the new Broadway express service, and I don't think the Q diamond is all that confusing. At Union Square, for example, there are plenty of people that will cross over to it from the local if the cross platform transfer is available. As one who catches the s/b locals at 8th ave, I see the Q diamond pass us (it seems they hold the locals short of canal often in favor of the Q diamond), and it always seems pretty well packed. More so than some of the locals (I can catch a seat on the locals most days at 8th during PM rush)
Even if it is still, I suspect the regulars will figure it out in time. I think if it could be done over, the concept of the Q diamond as an express would have been better made clear by having it have be the train that did the Astoria express run instead of the W.
The other train-lettering conventions might have been considered too (make the W the yellow B Diamond, and give W to the Q diamond perhaps?). But the train itself, and its' route, seems defendable, and should be even more so over time.
I wish I could agree with ya, but on more than one occasion the Q Diamond has given me fits. While waiting at Canal Street, I ran into an R-68 that had a Q Diamond at the front but had circles on the side and signs which said it was heading to Forest Hills. The conductor said it was going express and then proceeded to go local. Another time I ran into an R-32 Q diamond which had no signs that said it was a diamond. They were all circles. I always felt that we didn't need a Q Diamond. I was in favor of returning the M as the Brighton Local to Brighton Beach, while running the Q express to Coney Island. While not "natural" in terms of track routes, I thought that would bring the best customer service to Brighton riders.
Under normal circumstances (July 22-September 11, 2001), Q diamond vs. Q circle is not that confusing. The Q diamond was running slant R-40s, and the Q circle was running R-68s (with an occasional R-68A). The trains both ran express along Broadway and terminated at 57th Street-Seventh Avenue. I don't recall seeing any incorrectly signed trains. Eventually (not too long from now) this will be the case again, but right now circumstances are not normal and cars are being put into service without much thought as to whether they have the correct (circle vs. diamond) signs in order to just get the service out on the road.
David
I used to be a daily NYC Subway rider before moving to the suburbs. It seems to me that the only way to to tell the differences between the express and local 'Q' services is by destination. The circle 'Q' southbound runs local and is going to Coney Island. The diamond 'Q' southbound runs express and is going to Brighton Beach...Hope this helps you out...
The confusion results with car assignments completely out of whack right now due to no N/R service. R32's do not have Q diamond side signs. Don't forget that the circle Q terminates at 57/7 during the late PM/midnite hours. Sometimes the signs are changed to 57/7 on the PM, but sometimes there is nobody on duty to change them back to 71/Forest Hills on the AM. When the N/R resumes, the Brighton Line confusion will become a thing of the past.
It's also a matter of people not doing their jobs. I boarded the north motor an R-32 Q local at Stillwell Avenue this afternoon (October 10). In addition to the #1 end HVAC unit being off (one of my pet peeves -- see, timers aren't the only things that get me angry!), the #2 end north destination sign read "57th Street." The Train Operator had plenty of time to go into the #2 cab and turn on the HVAC plus change the side sign, but did neither.
For the uninitiated, the #1 end of an R-32 has the Train Operator's cab; the #2 end has the Conductor's cab. It differs somewhat from car class to car class, especially those with some cars that have no cabs at all (just to keep us railfans on our toes, of course...).
David
I agree with you. You know I would have changed the sign and turned on the blowers. It is a fact of life that some t/o's just don't care.
I agree with the notion that crews aren't doing their job, though without a "Q Diamond" they wouldn't have to change signs as much (as you probably guessed by now, I'm not a big fan of the Q Diamond).
There is another question I have: Is running the Queens Blvd Local V on 53rd Street instead of 63rd Street, as the MTA plans to do, a good idea? Wouldn't this cause massive overcrowding on the E, which is express in Queens? From what I see people generally want to go home in a hurry during rush hours.
As for your second question. In their minds more service will help that problem (and I agree). What people disagree about is if this will increase or decrease the congestion at Roosevelt. Many people won't bother transfering for just one express stop and the chance to catch the local one ahead of them.
I used to live at 63rd and take the N (at the time) to 59th Lex to go uptown. Except for a the school kids almost no one got off at 74th and took the express to Queens Plaza hoping to catch that N trains leader. The same thing likely applies to Queens local residents that need 53/rd or 6th Ave. If you had a seat at 67th Dr. you'd have to be a moron or very late to give it up hoping to save a few minutes.
the logic of this plan of theres puzzles me. if the e and f went straight to 53rd as tehy do now, there'd be no potiental backup on the exp around 36th street. but with the v going 53rd and the f to 63rd, you get the potiental snarl at 36th on the express track, and the potiental problems of intergrating the v and e's at QP...
then again, while the n/w were both on te astoria line the potiental snarl at 39th av did not generally materialize (though ditmars went to shit, but that's a whole other thread...)
bottom line: it should be interesting.
I don't want to get into this again since it has been discussed to death on this board in the past. Suffice to say the new service plan will be a disaster due to all the switching moves at Queens Plaza. The reason the V will be via 53rd St. and the F via 63rd St. is because the V is a part time service and the F is 24/7. Therefore the basic service plan from eastern Queens is the E via 53rd St. and the F via 63rd St. +V & R operating from the AM rush into the late PM hours. Having the F via 53rd St. sometimes and via 63rd St. other times would be too confusing to the off peak riders.
There are three basic reasons to run the F via 63rd and the V via 53rd. First, it will spread the load: express passengers who aren't transferring at Lex will use the F, while passengers who are transferring at Lex will have the E, V, and R (or Q) to choose from. (Yes, everyone going far east prefers the express, but the 63rd Street connection adds Manhattan-Queens capacity on the local, not the express. Locals really aren't much slower than expresses.) Second, with only expreses through 53rd, G passengers who now have a one-seat ride to Queens Boulevard local stations will end up with a forced double transfer, two stations in a row, and only the R (or Q) will be available at Queens Plaza. Third, the planned arrangement provides new direct service to passengers traveling between 53rd Street and QB local stations.
Why would G riders have a double transfer? Isnt the V going to be the QB local? Isnt the V stopping at 23-Ely/Court SQ?
What David was saying is if the V went via 63rd St. a G rider wanting to go from one of the local stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza to a station south of Court House Square would have no choice but to take the R to QP change and take the E or F one stop to 23rd-Ely and then change for the G.
With the V running via 53rd the current G local riders can take it to 23rd-Ely and transfer to the G without having to go through the extra wait at Queens Plaza. Whether or not this ends up creating more delays than it solves due to the track switching between QP and 36th St. remains to be seen.
Didn't I hear there was a possiblity that the G would continue on to Continental during rush hours? Since I board from Bedford/Nostrand, I'm not looking forward to the extra transfer.
After-hours when the V isn't running the G is scheduled to go to Continental, but during regular daytime and early evenings you'll have to take the long walk from Court House Square to 23rd-Ely.
After-hours?? Who rides the G at late night? You can count on your fingers the amount of people who ride the G at 2 in the morning. You can bet there will be a lot of protest from the Greenpoint, Nassau, Bway & Metro. passengers during rush hours...those trains are standing room only.
Don't argue with me, argue with Jay Street -- they're the ones who decide the G, V and R couldn't operate together between QP and Continental from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. or so, but the G and R could at nights.
Is there any reason why the V can't be a one-way line? During the morning rush it would go from Continental to smith/9th then become a G train from Smith/9th to Continental. During the PM rush it would switch.
Great idea...but considering the Ta seems to want to get rid or reduce G service for some reason. Just because it doesn't have standing room only like some of the other lines doesn't mean it should be phased out or cut back from its original terminal due to low ridership. anyone who rides it during rush hours knows what I'm talking about.
There are many reasons.
What are they?
That was rude of me. I apologize.
Reason one: Confusion. How would the TA indicate such a one-way loop on the map?
Reason two: What about the passengers who need to go the opposite way around the loop? Tell them to go to Smith-9th and back? Every single day? (I don't have the ridership numbers but I suspect more people ride south on the G in the morning than ride north from the Greenpoint area to the Queens Boulevard line. To eliminate a transfer for the few, your proposal cancels service entirely for the many.)
Reason three: What about middays?
Really, I don't see the big deal in the Court Square transfer. It's far from the longest transfer in the system and it will even have a moving walkway (unlike longer and much more popular passageways in Manhattan). Transfers are never ideal but I don't see how to keep the G past Court Square without impeding service for the many more riders bound to and from Manhattan.
"Reason one: Confusion. How would the TA indicate such a one-way loop on the map?"
Let the people who make the maps figure it out. There may be good reasons for not having such a service but not having a way to show it on a map should not be one of them.
"Reason two: What about the passengers who need to go the opposite way around the loop? Tell them to go to Smith-9th and
back?"
I wasn't clear I meant to have the loop service be in addition to the current G train service that transit has planned.
"Reason three: What about middays?"
Split the difference, before 1:00 go one way after 1:00 go the other way.
The G doesn't need 1.5 times its current service (i.e., double in one direction). I'd say that 6th Avenue could use that service more than the G.
And what about passengers who need to get from 6th Avenue to 53rd Street when the V is only running south (and vice versa)?
The G doesn't need 1.5 times its current service (i.e., double in one direction). I'd say that 6th Avenue could use that service more than the G.
You're totally right. However, I am somewhat skeptical about the TA using 4-car "G" trains. Will that be enough?...
I'm guessing it is -- I don't think the half-length G will end up as crowded as many of the full-length trains elsewhere -- but I really don't know for sure. If not, cars can be added by pulling them off other lines (with appropriate adjustments). Hopefully any need for longer trains would be mild enough that it could wait for the R-143's to arrive en masse, freeing up R-40's and R-42's from the L. Furthermore, keep in mind that some G riders will find new routes to avoid the Court Square transfer. But we'll see what happens.
I'm not talking about the north part of the "G" train. The part south of the "L" line (that's what I consider the south) can see some decent ridership. Just today, I was unable to get on a "G" train at Clinton-Washington sts. If the 6-car G trains actually operate on time, then there's ample service. But with the 4 car arrangement? What if there's a delay? I'm going to begin using that bus transfer at Jay st again (instead of the G).
I also don't think that the R-42's from the L will help much on the "G" line.
As I said, I don't know. We'll see. I'm sure those of us who don't regularly ride the G will hear all about it here.
As for the R-42's, my point is that there will soon be more cars available. I don't know where they'll go (I doubt the TA has a final plan yet) but some might end up on the G (not necessarily R-42's themselves, but, for instance, the R-42's could stay in the Eastern Division, the now-excess R-40's could go to Coney Island, CI could send some of its now-excess R-32's to Jamaica, and so on).
Rush hour service will not be 4 car trains so don't expect additional crowding. At 2 am you could run a 1 car train and still get a seat.
Expect lots more 4 car sets in the next 5 years. A new financial urgency along with new trains that have good couplers will make this happens, slowly and surely.
Rush hour service will not be 4 car trains so don't expect additional crowding.
Then what will rush hour "G" trains operate? For the longest, they operated 6 car R-46. Now, isn't it supposed to be 4 car R-68's?
Only on the OPTO runs not all the time
No, no argument with you my friend, but it's sought of ridiculous for Jay St. to make that call, when you look at when the B, D & Q was running on the Sixth avenue express line. They could run all 3 trains together if they wanted to. Maybe even skip stop service should be explored.
I made the same argument months ago that the TPH for the B, D and Q between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center (or the circle Q, diamond Q and W between DeKalb and Prince right now) has to be higher than the combined TPH that a G/R/V trio would have been. Apparently the problem is not so much the merge between QP and 36th St. as with turning all three of the lines at Continental -- or at least, that seems to be the MTA's explanation.
Another thing: Running the (F) through 63rd St will seperate it from the (E) for more of its route. That's a good thing. That's going to help us (F) riders escape some of Queens Blvd's legendary delays.
:-) Andrew
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I thought that the V running local after going through 53rd Street would mean a mad rush hour on the E with the V being relatively empty (similar to the crush seen on 7 Express during rush hours and the 7 local being relatively empty). However I did not think about the three transfers that G riders would have to make between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza if they're heading to Brooklyn from Queens. That would be highly inconvenient for them. On the other hand, in comparison to Manhattan riders, they're not too many G riders out there.
I get quite amused when I read postings here in reference to express service to/from Bay Ridge. I suppose these are made by residents of Bay Ridge. The Fourth Ave. local track leads to/from Bay Ridge. Should the Bay Ridge service be via express, then you have the problem of the local and express cutting each other out at 59th St. interlocking when both the Bay Ridge and Sea Beach trains arrive to the interlocking at the same time, similar to the Brighton line where the operationally correct thing to do is to have the express terminate at Brighton Beach and the local terminate at Stillwell, which is done.
IIRC the Bergen street lower level was damaged when the MTA was doing construction on the upper level.Even if that's false they'redoing abspestos removal on the express tracks.
I don't thin the E needs to go to Brooklyn right now unless C service is suspended again.
I actually support the G going to Church street.Though I thik that was tried before.
If the J ran to Brighton Beach then what would go to 95 street?
No.The is the fastest route to getting me to work in the morning.And is the A confusing(Queens bound A to Lefferts blvd,Far Rockaway or Rockaway park)?
The Q could make W stops and make that same route.But which train would run local in Manhatthan and Brooklyn?
I don't think the R can run express in Brooklyn.Though since were getting rid of the W the R can run over the Bridge.
The F is running via the 63 street line.
His plan is when normal service re-opens (i.e. N/R resume service)
It's Church Avenue, which is (as I said many times) a proper terminal for a subway line.
It was last tried in the early 70s, and stopped in 1976, as a rush hour only service.
Why would you need the "J" to run down Brighton? Did you want to displace the two "Q" services, or add the "J" as a third service?
If you get rid of the "W", who is going to mind the West End?
Reopen the Bergen Ave lower level on the Culver Line.
There's a subway at Bergen Avenue? This is wonderful news! No more crappy slow bus for me!
You can't have a 4th Ave express train running to 95. It's going to slow down the southbound M trains. They have to use a switch to get to Sea Beach and the R also has to use the switch to get to 95. If you're going to run exp on 4th ave, it should go via sea beach.
I agree with your general idea of Q running express in all 3 boroughs. However, there are several problems with running such a service at this time, before the MB has both sides open. One of the problems with having all the Brighton locals sent downtown would cause massive overcrowding on the express.
You're right about the express probably going to be over-crowded. But the "Q Diamond" is already over-crowded during rush hours, partially because it's the only Broadway Express and partially because a number of 4th Avenue riders use it to get to DeKalb. However, if people begin to realize (or are informed) that a Brighton J makes many of the same stops (or has nearby stops) that the 4/5 does in lower Manhattan they may stay on the J, instead of getting off at Atlantic to get the 4 or 5 (which many do).
Q Brightliner,
You (and those who saw the flaw) were right, and I was on crack. While you can get away with sending Brighton Locals into lower Manhattan during the evening rush, the morning rush is a totally different animal. Q Locals to my surprise were absolutely packed during the morning rush. I also hear that both Q's are usually packed during the morning rush. Sending the Brighton Local into lower Manhattan would mean death for those riding the Brighton Express. I guess we need two trains heading into midtown. When the other side of the Manhattan Bridge opens, I would still like to see the Q go express in three boroughs.
I guess this also shows a need for a Culver Express, the line which parallels the Brighton. Having an express could draw some riders off the Brighton and maybe help with the congestion.
P.S.: I don't smoke crack just for the record.
What they should do is run the Q Diamond Mon-Sat Express. The Q Circle via Tunnel when the Diamond is running, when it is not then run it via Bridge. Just like they did before Christie St
Bob, I think you missed the point here. Having only the express going to midtown would result in massive overcrowding. It did in the mid-60s before Chrystie, and ridership is up since then. Probably in your days, with the Triplexes and their voracious appetite for crowds on the express, that would have been sufficient. With both sides of the bridge open, I would favor Brighton services as follows: Q from Brighton Beach, via Brighton Express to Broadway Express to Queens Express, including Hillside Av. to Jamaica, 11 tph (northbound in morning rush). D from Coney Island, via Brighton Local, 6th Av. express, Concourse, 7 tph, J, M, or Z from Coney Island, via Brighton Local, Nassau St., etc., 6 tph.
I agree with you during Rush Hours 3 lines on the Brighton, Q via Bdwy Exp, D via 6th Local Bklyn, and M via Nassau St. The D 24/7 Q Mon-Sat 6A-10P M M-F 6A-9P
I would hope that once the MB problems are solved that the V would provide the bulk of the rush hour service on the Culver, running Kings Highway to Continental Av (BTW I believe it preferable to run it as 8th Av. local rather than 6th Av. local). The F would run as Culver express, but with fewer trains per hour than now, but the number of F + V then would be greater than now.
If the E and V both run via 8th Avenue, there will be no service between 6th Avenue and 53rd Street.
Also, why give three locals to 8th and only one to 6th? I suppose the V could run local while the E runs express (and swap the E for the C in Brooklyn to avoid the two crossing paths at Canal).
Will there be a V or will the Q continue to run to Queens?
At one time there were two Brighton locals. The QB went over the bridge, and the QJ went downtown.
The QB only ran during rush hours, I think something like that might still work.
I agree. I believe that division of Brighton services would work just fine again and would be possible to re-introduce once both sides of the MB open.
Pardon my long absence. I read your post couple of time and trying figure out a solution based on what u've said. From what i've read I think your service plan are bit confusing. But u've made some interesting suggestion and points. And Now, I would like add something to that
Eliminate the "Q Diamond". It's a confusing train.
Thats a good one. The TA should use Diamond "T" instead
J to Brighton Beach? It don't think its a good idea to have 2 local trains and 1 express train on the same route-because that may build up a traffic during rush. But I rather see J running to 95th street with R!
Run V to Continental Ave to 2 AVE. via 63rd tunnel with F. Well, the F could use some help. But, how does E gonna handle all the work at 53rd tunnel route by itself. The line is always jam pack on weekdays.
And, whats taking the TA so long to start the V? I thought they suppose to run in early or late August? They might as well start the V now, since the R is still out. They might as well use the V to replace R instead of Q.
As far as G are concerned. I would like to see G running between continental ave and church ave and R terminating at 36th Street Brooklyn on weekends.
The service plan for Nov. 11th has been finalised and the jobs are being picked by the crews. The Nov. 11th starting of the pick date has been delayed to 12/9/01.
Why all the need for service changes? I guess you all love switch capability quizes, or something. I'd love to see a Culver express, but I doubt theres need for it. Hey, Sea Beach hase express track beds, we might as well bring that back. And Chambers street has all sorts of stuff that hasn't been used since the els came down. Can't we get some express service on the 3rd Ave El? (Wait, is the 2nd Ave line supposed to go through Chambers? It should.) Put the constuction workers under 2nd Ave, not cleaning up Bergen St. And, if you all want a real interesting idea: As part of the 1 reconstruction south of Chambers, build a new tunnel to Red Hook, with a station on Columbia St. some where. Connect it to the G coming out of the tunnel after Bergen St. (New train bypasses Carol St.) Now the 1 runs from the Bronx, through Manhattan, into Brooklyn and on the Crosstown Local up to Court Sq. in Queens. No more G on Queens Blvd. Now Brooklyn Crosstown service continues to Manhattan. Now, subway service to Red Hook. Run IRT cars on the whole thing, with some sort of gap fillers on the G platforms. If Bergen St. can't accomodate IRT rolling stock and R-46s, then we should run the new 1 train through Bergen St lower level. Refurb it for new 1 service to Brooklyn and Queens, not for Culver express service. (If someone writes back to tell me that theres no switching capability to run Crosstown trains through Bergen Lower, my head might explode. With all the new constuction I've proposed, they could re-work whatever at Bergen. Ireally wanted to run Culver locals through Bergen lower, but then there'd be no service to Carrol St.)
In order for the R to skip DeKalb, it would have to be via bridge due to the track arrangements. Your proposals would reguire a humongous number of additional cars.
This is kind of late in saying so, but, in light of the recent subway changes, we now have an RJ train. The only thing is that it no longer goes to 168th Street in Jamaica for obvious reasons. It runs all times except late nights and is signed (J) because there is no (RJ) on the signs.
Also several years ago TA did away with the double lettered lines.
I wonder in the old days what they would call the current M. MN? NJ?
QJ & RJ was Southern|Eastern Divsion, so today's M would be NM.
There was some controversy, but W lost NM to AL.
The last Heritage sleeping car was removed from the Three Rivers consist upon its arrival at New York Penn Station on Octobre 1st. Both 3 Rivers trains now have modern Viewliner cars. The last Heritage "Cypress Grove", was built by Budd for use on the Sunlet Limited back in the day with the Southern Pacific. Her sisten car "Beech Grove" was receltly deadheaded to Chicago.
Nothing was said of what would become of these two cars. If I were Amtrak I would use them on another sleeper service, maybe as a lower cost alternative to the "First Class" cars. Maybe they could free up some sleepers for restored Broadway Limited service.
They can't be used on another because of their toilets - they were outlawed. They were only permitted on the 3R route anyway. If Amtrak were somewhat more assertive or proactive, they could have sought a waiver extension given the sharp upsurge in ridership since 9/11.
what is wrong with their toilets?
They're "hopper" toilets, i.e. they dump directly onto the tracks. That's illegal now. The 5 year waiver extension was only for the Three Rivers route and ran through 10/1/2001. The Heritage dorm cars have 2 chemical toilets, with whatever private room toilets capped. There is no such law in Canada, which is why 5 Amtrak 10&6 cars are running Winnipeg-Churchill.
You mean those Heritage toilets were still dumping right onto the tracks? I wonder how likely any person walking the tracks was to find a souvenier from those cars? Couldn't Amtrak have just retrofitted the tiolets? It's cheaper than buying new cars.
Today is the 46th Anniversary of the Brooklyn Dodgers first and only Baseball World Championship title. They defeated the Yankees 2-0- behind Johnny Podres. To those of you who are Brooklynites, or were or know of someone who followed those Dodgers, the real Dodgers, I salute you. I also salute myself because, believe it or not, I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers ever more than Coney Island or the Sea Beach.
No comment
Today, as for all October 4th's silence is golden Robert.
Of course, October 3 marked the 50th Anniversary of Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world". The story goes that some Dodger fan put a tape recorder by his radio and recorded Russ Hodges' account, then turned the tape over to one of the broadcasting networks. He had hoped to get Hodges' account of the last out as the Dodgers won, but we all know what happened there: "Branca throws....there's a long shot....I think it's going to be, I believe...THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!! Bobby Thonpson hit it into the lower deck of the left field seats, The Giants won the pennant, and they're going crazy. They're going crazy. THEY WONNNNNNNNN!!!!!!" Leo Durocher maintained, until he died, that he had no recollection of what happened. His mind just vapor locked.
So Fred, can you remember where you were when it happened? I heard it was as though an atomic bomb had been dropped on Brooklyn.
Thank You Steve, and who could not forget 1941-47-49-52-53-56. Yankees 6 Dodgers 1 Fred forgets, he can just remember 1 Year 55, and last year Yanks over Mets.
Fred never forgets. He just tries to bury that part ofthe past from his mind. He succeeds most ofthe time except when some rotten Yankee fan reminds him of it.
Yankees win again another AL East, where are the Mets now?
I saw Brighton Beach Memoirs last night. I hated that Jewish boy. You know why? Of course, the little bastard was a Yankee fan. A Yankee fan in Brooklyn. To hell with Neil Simon.
I ve tell you for years. There were a lot of Yankee Fans in Brooklyn during the 50s. BTW the Yankees had a 1st Basemen up for a drink of water in 1944-45. Namned Rosenthal. Maybe that s why my brother became a Yankee fan and passed it on to me
I know exactly where I was on that dark day. I left our auditorium after the top of the 8th inning with the good guys leading 4-1, and was told by a friend on the school's playground that Newcombe had blown the Giants down in the bottom of the 8th. I thought we were in. We were to play a soft ball game that afternoon ( we didn't play football on concrete, only at the park). Anyway, this guy John Perno who I didn't like and was a Giant fan, walks out on the field and I ask him who won. He only said: "The Giants 5-4." I thought he was bullshitting me when a bunch of guys showed up and started razzing me because there was no greater or more rabid Dodger fan in Long Island City than me. But the ironic thing was that Perno said nothing about the Thomson home run. I didn't know about the dramatics until I got home. It was a real crappy evening and an even crappier winter. But Brooklyn won four of the next five league titles, so they got even. The Giants were run out of town after the 1957 season with hardly a tear shed, while the Dodger passing that same fall was marked with both anger and grief.
Buffalo Chips, O Malley left Brooklyn for the same reason Stoneham, and he got a Multi Million Dollar Stadium Free. There were still lots of Giant Fans left in NYC also.
Bob, Bob, Bob! The fact is the Giants weren't drawing anything but flies when they were forced to leave for better pickings. They barely drew 600,000 fans their last two years in that dump they played in. What's more, they weren't even the most popular team in their borough of Manhattan. According to a survey taken in 1956, Northern Manhattan was heavily Yankee, and, believe it or not, South Manhattan was predominantly for the Dodgers. In Brooklyn they drew 1.2 million fans in 1956 and over a million in their last year there in 1957. The Dodgers had tons of fans in Brooklyn, much of south Queens and Manhattan, and they were the most popular team in Staten Island. Whatthe hell are you talking about anyway? The Dodgers were missed, the Giants hardly at all except for their diminishing minority of fans.
The Giants were losing their fan base mainly to the suburbs, but O'Malley was the one who talked Stoneham into moving out to the West Coast with him, so the Dodgers would have at least one rival closer than St. Louis, 1,800 miles away.
Since my parents were Giants fans, they had their own reason to hate O'Malley. He was the brains behind the whole scam, even though the Giants had far more of an excuse to leave the area than the Dodgers did. Stoneham should have just let Wally the Weasel go on west and taken the Flushing Meadow ballpark the city was offering, because the Giants never had a fraction of the success the Dodgers did in their move west (at least until Pac Bell was built last season).
Fred......If the Giants had only stuck it out at the PG for a couple of years, look at the players that came up through their system by the late 50s-early 60s: McCovey, Alou, Marichal along with Mays and a rejuvenated pitching staff. They were an instant winner once they moved west. Had they moved into Shea Stadium, they would have owned NY because NY was always a National league town.
Carl M.
If NY was a National league Town, where have the Yankees been for the past 99 years, how many penants did they win, after a loosing team for the 1st 22 years?
If the MannyB flip had not occured, Broadway would be cut off from Brooklyn completely. Maybe those people who complained about the new Q and W trains should be a little happier since they now have service to Manhattan.
Now, what would you do if the north side was open and the south side was closed?
B Division Only, A Division SAME
Normal is pre 7/22 service
Same is current pattern
A-Same
B-Normal except CI to 34th late nites
C-Same
D-Normal
E-Same
F-Same
G-Same
J-Same
L-Same
M-Same, shuttle from CI to 36th late nites
N-Astoria to Canal
Q-Normal, shuttle to 21st Street when no service
R-Forest Hills to Canal all times
Z-Suspended
B Division SHUTTLES
Rockaway-Same
Franklin-Same
63rd-When no Q or other train thru 63rd
I agree with mostly all of that except the B train. The B cannot terminate at 34th late nights, since the D will be running a thru service on the express tracks (D trains don't run local on 6th av, because they'd have to switch to local at W4 and switch back to express at 34th) Likely, instead of a Shuttle on Queensbridge nights they'd send the "B" train there.
I thought the D Train went local between 42 and 34 Streets and ran on the F local line until after B'way-Lafayette where there it would switch on to the middle tracks at 2nd Ave. Maybe I'm wrong but I saw a G/O at the tower at Lefferts that said differetly than what you said.
We're referring to a theoretical "what if MannyB northside tracks were still open and southside tracks closed". You are probably right about reality.
Hadn't thought of that. That could consolidate several services. It would also mean some B trains would be running from Jamacia Center to Coney Island.
>>It would also mean some B trains would be running from Jamacia Center to Coney Island.<<
How you figgure? B trains are 600 foot long R-68's, that's 2 things preventing that right there. They wouldn't do that!
On the IND tracks. The scenario was as follows:
The GO sending R trains to Jamacia via the E after Forest Hills is in effect. It is a weekend so the B is covering for 63rd Street. This means that the B has to cover both 63rd Street and the R. The R would be suspended and people would have 2 sections, the N on Broadway and the B for Queens and 63rd Street. Transfer at 34th.
Oh. Ooops.
Pretty close.
BDQ, same as before. Probably some sort of of shuttle for 63rd nights & weekends. Or they would continue the E & F GO's through there
JM, same as now
NR, as you said, normal north terminals; cut back to Canal.
The N, cut off from Coney Island, would probably be based out of Jamaica, an use the balance of R-46's not needed on the shortened R.
Can someone from the DC area help me.
My wife and I are traveling to DC next month since the rates are so low (ATL-DCA 144.00 round trip on Delta + 60.00/night at Westin Fairfax, used to be Ritz-Carlton, via priceline).
Anyway, we arrive at 10:00 PM and need to get to the hotel which is next to Dupont Circle. Taxi is about 50.00 from Dulles to hotel. I'm wondering if we should take a taxi to the nearest Metro station and ride the subway to the hotel. Any advice? Thanks
The Washington Flyer (www.washfly.com) can take you to the Falls Church Metro station for $8.00 per person ($14.00 round trip). The catch is the last bus from Dulles is at 10:15 (Buses run 15 and 45 after the hour).
Maybe an earlier flight can make things easier.
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
>The Washington Flyer (www.washfly.com) can take you to the Falls >Church Metro station for $8.00 per person ($14.00 round trip). The >catch is the last bus from Dulles is at 10:15 (Buses run 15 and 45 >after the hour).
>
>Maybe an earlier flight can make things easier.
>
I'm thinking my flight won't make it in time to catch the flyer. Thats why I'm wondering if a cab to subway or just a cab would be better. The fare may not be that different. Opinion? Thanks in advance.
I just found this info. I hope it helps.
Considering you are coming in at a late hour, it may be better to go for a one-seat ride with the Dulles cab (the dark grey ones). That way you can play it safe.
"New express bus service between Arlington and Washington Dulles International Airport
On Friday, Sept. 21, Arlington County started temporary bus service between Arlington and Dulles International Airport. The "Arlington-Dulles Express" service is being offered to address the inconvenience caused by the temporary closure of Reagan National Airport. The coaches will initially run every 30 minutes, starting at 5:30 a.m. on weekdays and 7:30 a.m. on weekends, and going until approximately midnight. Fares are $5 cash one-way; $4 cash with Metrobus or Metrorail pass, regional bus-to-bus transfer or Metrorail-to-bus transfer."
That is discontinued with the reopening of National Airport.
If you want to take Metro, You would have to take a taxi from Dulles to the Vienna Metro station which is the end of the Orange line in Virginia. Transfer at Metro Center Station to the Red line in the direction of Shady Grove. Go two stops to the Dupont Circle Metro station. Exit the station at the Q street entrance which will put you on the corner of 20th st and Q st. The Weston Fairfax hotel is at 2100 Massachusetts Ave, n.w. If you walk west (left as you exit the station) on Q street one block. Turn left onto 21st street and you will see the Westin Hotel about a quarter block away at the corner of 21st and Massachusetts Ave. You will be walking through a residential neiborhood but it will probably be close to 11 pm by the time you get to the Dupont Circle Metro station. If you are arriving in town on Friday or Saturday evening, Metro runs till 2 am, otherwise it closes at midnight. This could be critical if you get delayed leaving the Airport. You might arrive at Metro center after the last red line train passes thru the station which would require a taxi to the hotel.
Even though the taxi fair is high, at that hour of the night you might feel a bit more at ease being delivered directly to the front door of the hotel.
Best regards, Ken.
The last trains at Metro Center wait to make connections. This occurs between 12:04 AM and 12:06 AM according to the schedule (2 hours later on Friday and Saturday nights), but I hear they really spend about 5 minutes waiting. The last Orange line train from Vienna arrives at Metro Center about 12-15 minutes earlier, so once on the Orange Line, you have no problem. I doubt it will take you 15 minutes to make it up the escalator and I believe they ensure everyone in the station is either exiting or on a train before they allow the trains to leave. In other words, no one should be on a platform at 12:06.
More like 35.00 dollars not 50.00. Also check with super shuttle they have a 800 number
A bus operated by Washington Flyer operates from Dulles to the West Falls Church Station on the Orange Line. This bus costs $8 alone. You would have to pay an additional fare for the subway. Washington Flyer's website is www.washfly.com. To determine when you would arrive for the return bus (another $8), go to Metro's website and use the Ride Guide, www.wmata.com.
Metro operates a bus, route 5A, from Dulles Airport to L'Enfant Plaza. This bus operates hourly and makes stops at Dulles, Herndon/Monroe Park and Ride, Rosslyn, and L'Enfant Plaza. Cost is $1.10 plus a MetroRail fare to DuPont Circle, or you can take a bus. Again, use the Ride Guide at www.wmata.com.
If you have any more questions as to how to get around or where to railfan, post on SubTalk or e-mail me personally at oren@orenstransitpage.com.
Enjoy your stay!
Are you sure you're going to Dulles? DCA is National Airport, which is now open, and it also has a Metro stop at the terminal. IAD is Dulles.
Yesterday I took NJT into 30th Street station to begin a trip to the SEPTA Transit Museum store to buy Bill Newkirk's 2002 calendar. The NJT personnel on the AC route are quite friendly, in contrast to reports from North Jersey where they are overworked and often unpleasant.
Amtrak employees gathered WTC debris and photographs and constructed a WTC memorial/tribute to the rescue/clean-up workers. It was erected in 30th Street station. I took photos of it.
I proceeded to walk to the South Street bridge and photographed Acela Express, AEM-7, HHP-8, E-60, NS freight, and SEPTA. Returning to 30th Street, I took Route 10 Subway Surface car #9000 into Center City and bought my calendar. (Yes, Mike, route 10 is running again).
Photos of everything mentioned except the calendar are posted here.
Bob some very creative shots
Well done.
May I post the one of the Solari Board on my website (with proper credit)? I would like to provide a visual example of one of those actually working. I have shots of the one at NYP after it was disabled and the LED one was activated. The "Departure Board" on my site is susposed to model those boards to some extent.
Great photos, I'll be back in town next monday and tuesday BTW.
Hardly a day goes by that at least one of us posts a message about how stupid, incompetent, or mean-spirited MTA- NYC Transit is. They are regularly accussed of intentionally making service worse (always, of course, from the point of view of the individual poster.)
Then we have the endless posts about re-routing every line in the city so that someone can have an express train to their stop. (Hey, how many bizzare schemes can you come up with to get a Culver express?)
I seriously doubt that NY Transit is trying to put itself out of business. I'm more inclined to believe they have valid reasons for running the trains as they do. It's easy for us to sit back with our track maps and lots of idle time and re-invent the wheel, but if some of our vociferous SubTalkers actually took over... well, I doubt that there would be a single train running within 24 hours.
So keep dreaming, kids, it's fun to speculate. But don't take yourselves too seriously. Most of us don't have access to even 10 percent of the info needed to solve real-world problems.
I agree.The MTA is doing a damn good job notifying the public about service changes and diversions.And the MTA isn't the reason for delays.If some of your fellow straphangers would let go of the fucking door things would be moving faster.
Also if morons quit calling in phony bomb scares people might be able to get from here to there!
yes, my colleagues at the NYPD Transit Bureau are really annoyed.
If they ever catch one of these guys, legal should get on it. How about a class action suit on behalf of everyone who is inconveninced (and we'll take your word for it). Neither these guys nor their families should be left with more than the clothes on their back. That's if they are female. If male, the clothes below their belt is all they deserve.
Plese.Don't let them off easily.Send the idiot's,their parents and whoever was involved to a Turkish prison!
Why don't we just fine them and/or jail them?
I agree also, I never blame things on the MTA...
But some of us have access to a lot more info than the MTA does. Some of us actually ride on the trains every day, and we know what the conditions are like, whereas all the MTA has is ridership surveys from 1995 that extrapolate to a 6% increase by 2001, where it has been more like 26%. We know how frequently and on-timefully the trains really run. We can also compare the NYC subway to systems in other cities, and all of this leads to the inevitable conclusion that service can be better.
I personally do not blame NYCT for intentionally making service worse. The last time they did that was when the trains mysteriously became much slower after the overhaul. But what annoys me is that there are very simple and obvious steps that can be taken to make service better, and NYCT does not take them. Take, for example the problem of door-holding. It is a major contribution to station dwell time, and thus a major limiting factor on the frequency of service. A common excuse that it is just the nature of people to hold doors, since they do not want to miss their train. The MTA's solution so far has been automated announcements telling people to step all the way in and stand clear of the closing doors. There are also advertisements in subway cars tellingn people not to worry if tehy miss their train, since another one just like it is on the way. These advertisements entirely miss the point that the next train may be coming in another 10 or 15 minutes, and that being 10 minutes late actually does make a difference to most people.
But a simple comaprison with other subway systems suggests a simple
as I was saying before my computer so rudely interrupted.....
There is an obvious diiference between the NYC subway and other systems. The doors on their trains close much faster. There also happens to be significantly less door-holding. This is an obvious sort of thing: If the doors close faster than the reaction time of the average person, by the time they realise that the door is closing, it will already be too late to try to grab it becasue it will be closed. It costs very little additional money to replace the door motors with faster ones as part of the scheduled maintenace process, and that simple act can significantly reduce delays, especially on very busy lines like the Lexington Express, with no need for spending lots of money on new technology like CBTC.
But with CBTC, then more trains can run closer together, which should solve 2 problems at once (door holding, crowded trains)
Plus, no matter how fast the doors close, they cn still get held open, and then that slowly makes the door motors get slower and slower...
But with CBTC, then more trains can run closer together,
That's not true. There is very little theoretical service capacity benefit from CBTC over the current block system. The theoretical capacity for current block system is 42-45 tph; CBTC would raise that to the 48-52 tph range. They are currently running at the 25-30 tph range. They could increase service levels by 33% without resorting to CBTC.
the theory behind CBTC is that the 'magic' radio boxes both lineside and onboard are "cheaper to install and maintain" than physical relay driven electro-mechanical block signaling hardware. This may someday be true, but the experience with such stuff in the SF MUNI Metro has been lousy. Certainly, if MTA can find a vendor whose stuff actually works reliably, then the savings over many years in signal maintenance costs could be quite large.
But won't it let you fly across the Manny B and Willy B on off hours? Remove the need for punches and towers holding you behind homeballs for ID?
Once upon a time, long long ago, far far away, we were told that THAT was what marker lights were for. :)
yes, WHEN it works correctly. Bay Area riders of both BART and MUNI have experience of slowdowns when the control systems see "ghosts". For fun see the SF MUNI real time display of 'LRV trains' in the Metro tunnel
>>http://sfmunicentral.com/<<
you will periodicaly see 'non-communicating trains'
I will be very pleased when this stuff works as well as the hardwired blocks.
It isn't necessary to replace the motors. The door operator opening and closing speeds are adjustable in the shops (by playing with door speed resistors that control opening speed, closing speed, and "opening cushioning"). According to information I have (which is a few years old and may have changed), door opening time should be 1.5-1.8 seconds and door closing time should be 2.4-2.6 seconds. How much faster or slower the doors can be set to open and close, I am unable to say due to a lack of information.
David
and if we shapen the doors to a razors edge people will quicky learn not to mess with the doors.
C/R's are no longer allowed to cycle the doors either. That HURT on those old trains.
No more "bumper-putz?" What *has* the TA come to? :)
>bumper-putz?
Thats right I forgot people getting banged for one door to the other. The Veggo-matic is also gone. Plus open for at least ten seconds.
I know the Conductors are supose to open up fully and make a closing door announcement. That is the R 142 a plus because that cycles the doors on it own.
>>whereas all the MTA has is ridership surveys from 1995 that extrapolate to a 6% increase by 2001, where it has been more like 26%. We know how frequently and on-timefully the trains really run. We can also compare the NYC subway to systems in other cities, and all of this leads to the inevitable conclusion that service can be better.<<
You do realize that the TA takes turnstile counts (non-paying customers shouldn't be a part of the service improvements anyways), which tells them just how much service has increased. They also know how many trains are on time: I've seen many stations where there are guys marking down the time a train arrives on a clipboard. Even without those guys, the tower sees more trains than any one commuter on any given day.
>>These advertisements entirely miss the point that the next train may be coming in another 10 or 15 minutes, and that being 10 minutes late actually does make a difference to most people.<<
You do realize that the only train that is scheduled to come every 10 minutes apart is the G, and there's almost never any door holding on that line. The only time trains become late so that they are 10-15 minutes apart is when they get held up by stragglers who refuse to wait the extra 7 minutes for the next one. Sorry if the TA can't schedule trains for every 2 minutes on every line. They are trying to be cost efficient so that they can avoid fare hikes.
Just assuming rush hour here, the A southbound am and A Northbound PM runs about every 10 minutes, and the C is scheduled for about every 10 minutes throughout the day. The W runs every 10 minutes during rush hour, and the J and M are also quite infrequent. The simple and obvious way to solve that problem would not involve buying any new trains or hiring new employees. Simply split the train (of R44/46/62/68/142/143's) in half. That way, instead of one 8 or 10 car train every 6-10 minutes with a train operator and conductor, you get on 4 or 5 car train every 3-5 minutes, with OPTO. Thus, the number of cars running and number of train crew stays teh same, but waiting times go down by, on average 4 minutes. 4 minutes times 4 million people = 266000 man-hours = $1.4 million a day at minimum wage increase in productivity for the economy. Also, the increased headways will lead to increased ridership, especially for short trips since it would not make sense to take the train if the wait is longer than the ride.
For reference, in Moscow, the typical headways are:
1.3 to 1.5 minutes during rush hours
2.5 to 4 minutes during midday and evening
6 minutes in the late evening
3-6 minutes on weekends.
The government subsidy to that system: 0
That plan is bad. You know why? If there's a delay of any sort, there will be nothing but crammed trains. I understand that certain things work in other systems, but they wouldn't work here. That plan you stated gives no flexibility what-so-ever. Becuase if there's a sudden flux of riders, then it's going to get ugly.
Further, on some places headways are already very tight, and that plan wouldn't work (E,F,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) Notice the IRT lines? Notice how they have shorter train lengths...
And, um, the A runs at headways better than 10 minutes. the Rockaway park runs add 5 trains the whole rush hour. FIVE! even without those trains, the A is scheduled to come roughly every 7 minutes. The C,J,M and W lines are scheduled for every 8 minutes.
There is plenty of flexibility if the headways are never shorter than about 3 minutes. And this sort of thing would not be necessary on the E,F,2,3,4,5,6 or 7. It is also more of an off-peak hour sort of idea.
Also, I am quite aware of the fact that the A train runs every 7 minutes, but that is northbound am and southbound pm, and I explicitly stated the opposite directions, where the train does indeed run every 8-10 minutes accoriding to my timetable. Note that there are no Rockaway Prak-bound trains in the am rush hour. Also, from having taken the A train on a daily basis in that direction, I have observed that there usually two A trains going northbound pass before my southbound train comes. Also, from taking the 1 train daily for a year, I can tell you that service is a bit overrated. When they say 3-6 minutes during rush hour (I quote the timetable as of August 2001) they mean closer to 6 minutes. Also, note that the trains are already crammed anyway, so it doesn't make a difference.
When the trains go conga line it would also get worse many signal blocks are more than 300 ft.
Let me say this although I've likely said it before. Every little boy who ever had electric trains while growing up thinks he can run a railroad. The truth is, after 20+ years, I'm still learning, every day. Even experts in one field don't see the entire picture. For someone to say that they know it all because they ride the trains, is the height of egotism.
In another thread, we were discussing decision making during service interruptions. For the Manhattan Bridge flip, I looked at over 30 different strategies for handling delays at different times and locations. Yet if I were to pose just one to you, Mr. daily Subway Rider - expert, I'd be willing to wager that you'd not be able to grasp the problem, let alone come up with a viable strategy.
However, as long as you mention it, why don't you explain to all of us why the field shunting was removed from the propulsion system. Why don't you explain what two areas came into conflict making this necessary.
Why don't you explain to me how to forcast material and manpower needs to regularly inspect a fleet of 1,000 cars every 10,000 miles with an annual fleet milage of 72,000,000 miles (and that's just one shop of 13). I'll bet you don't pick that up riding the trains every day.
I could go on and on but I think we get the point. You have a theory - a theory you have no means of ever testiing so you just assume it will work.. Tell me how your theory squares witht he fact that people will hold doors on a Northbound #5 at Grand Central when the next northbound #5 is clearly visible at the end of the station, waiting to enter. Yup, I can't wait to hear from an expert.
Tell me how your theory squares witht he fact that people will hold doors on a Northbound #5 at Grand Central when the next northbound #5 is clearly visible at the end of the station, waiting to enter. Yup, I can't wait to hear from an expert.
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Can you actually see a n/b train waiting to enter the station at GCP? I mean, can a n/b express be in the station, while the next train can get close enough to be seen? That's a very sharp turn before GCP. I can't imagine someone can see the next express.
But I understand you're point.
A better example would be on the 6, and I know many of you can relate to this.
You're trying to board a n/b 6 at 59th/Lex. It's way too crowded. The conductor shouts, "there is a train directly behind this one". You look down the track, with 51st in clear view, and see nothing.
You two have just exemplified two classic points.
1. "What I have experienced trumps anything you claim.
2. You can't possibly understand because you don't see the big picture.
Well the "there's (bus, train, lrv etc)another right behind me." is the 'fourth great lie' along with I'll respect you in the morning, I won't... etc. It might be true, but it has so often been a lie that it has no credibility anymore.
As to "armchair" versus the 'experts' who work in the system, this is a much trickier question. SOMETIMES the veterans have been doing things in a rut for so long they have lost the horizon from which to innovate. Tom Peters (as merely one example) has made a career of telling people to change how they approach their businesses (and yes the TA is a business only the object is service and 'profit' if any is a side issue.)
I certainly can understand that there are many considerations in planning be it service pattern changes forced by outside facts or merely the year in year out subtle changes in ridership, but the intellectual processes here are no more complex than writing some huge amount of code, and if the totality of data to be considered and the weight to be assigned each datum when there are conflicts can be documented, them 'rational' solutions can be obtained.
Well some operating time for you guys might be a cure.
Half here seem to want every old small line restored and lots of rush or nite only service, we would be up to the 53 train and the MM. The other half want every line extended.
We have the skip stoppers and those that would eliminate skip stop before cancer.
Some proposed weird service and don't understand that maybe a F local to far rock is not a practical service for scheduling or on the operator then ask 'what is a work program'.
We have the we did that in 1933ers so we can do it now.
When confronted with the problems we have well mass transit should be more of a priority $$ or well the union should be more flexible. Like somehow asking for more money never occured to anyone or that anyone could not do better with an extra 1 billion.
Many of you don't understand work rule changes, see my other post. OR understand that when trains are a conga line more trains actually can hurt the service or that some of these newer rules make more service almost impossible.
You two have just exemplified two classic points.
1. "What I have experienced trumps anything you claim.
2. You can't possibly understand because you don't see the big picture
So what is your point? I believe exactly those points. Anyone can say "I can do it better". Okay, here's the challange. AMTRAK is looking for a Chief operations person for the North-East corridor right now. You'd have to re-locate to Philly and I don't know what you earn but they are offering $125,000 as a starting salary and possibly as high as $135 - $140K. So if you are not earning as much and want to show how easy it is to run a railroad, why not apply? Then let us know how you stack up against the two leading candidates.
As a matter of fact, you can see trains waiting to enter a station at several points in the system. One such point is 5th Ave Northbound on the E/F. With an E in the station, an E can come down to the signal in advance of the Home ball. This is clearly visible from the platform. Since the main station entrance is on that end of the station, too, one would think that people would see a train waiting to enter and just let that one leave. UH UH.
maybe yes, maybe no. First off, with the usual caveats, yes most of the MTA should be given the benefit of the doubt both individually and collectively. That said, however, the deliberate slowing of the system which has been documented here ad nauseam, not only degrades service to riders, but may well be financially counterproductive. The per hour cost of a ten car IRT train and crew is not cheap. If the train can get from origin to destination terminals say ten-fifteen minutes faster, then that trainset and crew could make a few more trips per work week. That either means enhanced service at no increased capital cost, or lower capital costs in the future for the current service levels. The negative potential here is increased mileage per month and thus higher maintenance per year. Perhaps some MTA 'zeck' could comment on the strategy currently deployed.
>>If the train can get from origin to destination terminals say ten-fifteen minutes faster, then that trainset and crew could make a few more trips per work week.<<
First-off, you're not going to save 15 minutes (maybe with re-instatement of Field shunting and removal of some timers you could save a few minutes, but not too much). Plus, train crews only do a number of runs per day. So, in the end the slowdown would not really slow the TA much.
Now when the selective speed control of the R-44/46 was disabled, THAT was a serious slow down! (but only on those classes)
You can save a lot of time, even without field shunting. Simply make the trains accelerate faster, like we all know they can (for example in Philadelphia and Boston). The way it is now, a local train reaches its top speed of 30 mph as it is entering the next station. If trains accelerated like they do in Boston, (0-40 in 25 seconds, and I've timed that), the local train would reach its top speed of 40 halfway to the next station and continue at that speed until it has to stop. This can give up to a 20% increase in average speed, and on trains like the 1, where total running time (242 St-South Ferry) is 53 minutes, that would save about 10 minutes, giving train crews an extra half-trip over the course of a day. The effect would be even more noticeable for longer local lines, and when combined with reduced door-holding and increased headways as mentioned in my other posts, that could lead to a significant increase in the actual capacity of the system, as well as the perceived quality of service, with no expensive and time-consuming capital projects.
Point taken. Still, what's 'half-a-trip'? You can't expect a crew to take a train for half a trip.
A trip on most lines is from Terminal A to Terminal B and back to Terminal A. A half trip is from A to B. The 1 was a poor choice for this, since it and the 6, under normal conditions, do not have the option of a half trip, because of their loops. I have worked jobs on the 7 that were 4 1/2 trips - started at TSQ and finished at Main St - and on the 2 with 1 1/2 trips -start at Livonia Yard and finish at White Plains.
giving train crews an extra half-trip over the course of a day.
An extra half-trip on the 1? This actually costs more money, because now they have to pay me to travel back to where I started, whether it be in service or not.
giving train crews an extra half-trip over the course of a day.
An extra half-trip on the 1? This actually costs more money, because now they have to pay me to travel back to where I started, whether it be in service or not.
or better yet, extended breaks at the terminal. A more alert train crew means a safer system, and that is what is most important
This, at least, is a better solution.
well said, the question of how to utilize the 'saved' time is IMHO open to NEGOTIATION like for instance change out TSQ SB back to a NB so as to clock out at point of origin. In any event, the point I believe stands the TA is wasting both capital and labor costs by runnng the trains too slowly.
Could it be that perhaps you do not know the reason for the elimination of field shunting?
did I mention field shunting?
If trains accelerated like they do in Boston, (0-40 in 25 seconds, and I've timed that), the local train would reach its top speed of 40 halfway to the next station and continue at that speed until it has to stop.
0-40 mph in 25 seconds works out to 1.6mph/sec. That is very poor performance and places it on a par with the best equipment from gate car days. I'd be curious about your experimental method for measuring the acceleration.
The most important acceleration, from the capacity viewpoint, is the time a train takes to clear a station platform. In your example, it would take 22.6 sec for a 600 foot long train to clear the platform. It would still be accelerating toward 40 mph. On the other hand, a train accelerating at 2.0 mph.sec to 30 mph would take 21.1 seconds to clear the same platform. It's not going to make much difference. Now, if you were considering the Bluebirds of 60 years ago at 4.0 mph/sec, then you might have a legitmate complaint.
I owe myself 5 cents because I bet myself that you'd pick up
and jump in on the acceleration number. 0 to 40 in 25 is indeed
an average acceleration of 1.6 mphps. However, acceleration is only
constant for part of the curve. Let's look at the beloved bluebirds.
They were essentially PCC cars and had a balance speed of about 42-45
MPH. The acceleration rate was 4.0. That rate was held constant
by the notching circuits (actually a brush arm controller, but
that's a whole other discussion) until all of the resistance was
out of the circuit. The point on the curve where that happens on
level tangent track is roughly 18 MPH. Beyond that there is
a section of roughly constant-current acceleration under progressive
field shunting which produces a reduced tractive effort/accel
rate. By about 27 MPH, it's all over and acceleration falls
off roughly according to a=B-Ks where B and K are constants and
s is the speed.
If you time say the 0-20 time it should work out more or less exactly
to the stated acceleration rate. The 0-40 time involves many
more factors such as gearing, hp/weight ratio.
I owe myself 5 cents because I bet myself that you'd pick up and jump in on the acceleration number. 0 to 40 in 25 is indeed an average acceleration of 1.6 mphps. However, acceleration is only constant for part of the curve. Let's look at the beloved bluebirds. They were essentially PCC cars and had a balance speed of about 42-45 MPH. The acceleration rate was 4.0. That rate was held constant by the notching circuits (actually a brush arm controller, but that's a whole other discussion) until all of the resistance was out of the circuit. The point on the curve where that happens on level tangent track is roughly 18 MPH. Beyond that there is a section of roughly constant-current acceleration under progressive field shunting which produces a reduced tractive effort/accel rate. By about 27 MPH, it's all over and acceleration falls off roughly according to a=B-Ks where B and K are constants and s is the speed.
If you time say the 0-20 time it should work out more or less exactly to the stated acceleration rate. The 0-40 time involves many more factors such as gearing, hp/weight ratio.
I did not say how long a Bluebird would take to clear the platform, I just said that it would be significantly less than 22 seconds. I don't think your criticism is justified.
However, since you have presented an acceleration vs. velocity profile for the Bluebird, I'll give you a numeric answer. First, let me double check what you said.
Let x1(t) be the velocity (mph) and x2(t) be the distance travelled (ft). Then:
dx1(t)/dt = { 4.0, for x1(t) <= 27; 10.75 - 0.25x1(t) for 27 < x1(t); 0.0 for x1(t) > 43}
dx2(t)/dt = 1.47x1(t)
This is in the form of simultaneous first order differential equations. There are many numeric packages that are designed to itegrate such equations that are presented in this form. I chose to use the octave package, which is free under the GNU license. It also plots the results. Looking at the plot, the 600 foot platform is cleared in approximately 16 seconds.
I trust you got your nickel's worth.
BTW, this simple problem does yield a closed form solution. However, if you want it, you'll owe me that nickel.:-)
As I mentioned in an earlier post, in 1970, I took an RR from Astoria to 95th St. in 62 minutes. The same trip now (pre 9/11), by scheduled times of N and R trains (changing at DeKalb with no wait), would run 72 minutes. That's 10 minutes, boys.
If you really want to get that time back.
Let crews key automatics at will. Get rid of 2/3 of the bridge timers put the tunnels on regular signals not GT's, kill holding light enforcement, make runs and batteries less of a production to do, allow C/Os to keep doors closed while waiting in stations, allow C/O's to rapidly cycyle the doors which close hard, have 3+ giant irish (my boyhood rememberence not a slam against any group) c/o's per train so that when someone holds the door they can pop down with a show paddle, burn the wheel detectors, allow trains to enter stations even when they don't have the full line up, don't grief T/Os that arrive early, soup up the trains again and restore those brakes that would slam you around the car.
Almost all of those things are safety related BUT you would get the old timetable back and be able to run more trains per hour.
Has anybody heard the latest if there will be a open house at Croton the end of this month from Metro-North. If so I am planning to come
Check the Upcoming Events! October 20 is the date!
What do AFAIK and OTOH mean?
OTOH is On The Other Hand
AFAIK could mean one of 2 things:
1)As far as I know
--or--
2)Most women's breasts in Beverly Hills.
Been spendin' time in Beverly Hills have we?
Well, ummm, hope you had, um, err, fun.....
Thanks for the info.
On Tuesday, Sept 11, how did the subway initially respond to the collapse? They say the evacuation was well organized, so exactly what happened where did everything go? They had to get people out of Manhattan without letting anyone in. How was this done, avoiding the WTC area totally? What was the subway of 9/11/2001 like?
According to radio, at first trains were just skipping the lower manhattan stations. Then not too long before the first collapse, I heard that all trains that went through lower manhattan were closed. Finally, By the time I got out, (at the exact time of the second collapse) and walked up to 14th st and 6th av (from Chambers and West) the subway was entirely closed. Buses were running, but service was horrible, as my friend and I outpaced buses, and caught up to others.
When I got to 60th st the E/F were running and I boarded that after getting my mom from work. To my understanding:
1. B/D/F/G/L/7 trains were running 'normal'
2. A/E trains were running via the F from W4 to Jay (It appears that most E trains were turned at second av, and when we came into Jay st, an A train was coming from high st, packed with passengers, so I think some ran along their regular route). J trains were running only to East New York From Parsons (Should have been extended to Myrtle).M trains ran only between Metropolitan and Myrtle
3. C/N/R/Q/W/1/2/3/4/5/6/9 trains remained suspended until later that night when the Brooklyn IRT got shuttle service, and 1/2/4/6 trains terminated at 42nd st on their respective lines (no idea when Q/W began re-operating)
Also the PATH dispatcher at Journal Square should get some of the credit for saving lives. Shortly after the first building was struck, he (or she) ordered the WTC station evacuated. My guess was he considered the building in danger of collapsing. Every train that could be taken there was rushed over there to get the people off of the station and to safety in NJ. All those who wouldn't take the train were advised to get upstairs and get out of the neighborhood ASAP.
My mother was on the 8:39am out of Newark. It must have been pulling into JSQ when the 1st plane hit. They were all thrown off at Grove Street, but the announcements simply said the WTC is closed, go to 33rd, which they did (it was an all-day trek back thru Weehawken), when they should have said go home.
I just saw this auction today on ebay. Someone is selling a map of the BMT from 1933. Here is the link. I would bid, but it already reached $88.00 and the auction just started! Btw, I am not the seller of this item, and I do not know him or her either.
David
The last time this map went for sale on e-bay, it went for $276.00. And it went to the person who happens to be the current leader of this auction (bmtlines).
He is also a Subtalker. :-)
Chaohwa
BMTlines if I am correct is/was the same person who used to post here at SubTalk under that same handle.
For all I know he may still be here under a different name (or has become a lurker).
In any event he tends to have the highest bids on any BMT or BRT related material at ebay. It really p---es me off sometimes as rarely does anyone else get a chance to win.
BMTman
Just to set the record straight - the guy who posted as BMTLines is NOT the same person whose eBay handle is BMTLines. I should know - it is my eBay handle. If I pissed you off by bidding on BMT material - well i'm sorry but I could also say that I am pissed off by people who force me to bid so high in order to complete my collection. But I don't - that is what an auction is all about - and if you look at my overall success percentage - I win less than 20% of the auctions I bid on. And I have been sniped at the last minute countless times. There are several others who would and do bid high for BMT material, so even if I weren't around, I doubt if you would find any bargains. I guess the BMT has a lot of fans!! I recall a porcelain BMT map that sold for over $1000 - no I did NOT win it - but I wanted it. Does any of this upset me - I will honestly say NO - It is all part of the "game" - and I certainly play by the rules!! And If you want to know - the RESERVE on this map was set at $88 - thats how the bidding went so high so fast.
As for the handles - when I chose a handle for eBay - BMTLines was available - but later when I started looking around subtalk I noticed that it was already in use so I chose my favorite route instead. The person who used the handle BMTLines on subtalk is not related to me in any way so don't blame him.
It may piss you off, but you have to look at it this way. If you want it that badly, then you must be prepared to PAY for it.
I have gone a bit higher than usual on certain items because I wanted it that badly. Mind you, I personally would not pay $276 for a 1933 BMT map, but he is quite willing to do so.
Time and money are to some extent exchangeable. If you spend enough time rooting around on eBay, you can find bargains. There was recently an eBay item comprising 15 pieces of travel ephemera, including an old BMT Lines map (don't know which year) that went for just $7.50. Unfortunately my sniping finger was too slow ...
It went for just $180.51, which is a more realistic market price IMHO.
were you the purchaser?
Yes. Obviously I don't like it being expensive either, but eBay is the only way to collect NYC subway maps on this side of the Atlantic, so I just have to accept the market forces like everybody else.
And finally I didn't even come close to winning it!! So my response to BMTman stands - even if I didn't bid - it won't make this stuff any cheaper.
Jim aka BMTlines(on eBay only) - NOT the subtalker by the same handle.
Sometimes prices are bid up because just two people are really hot for the item.
Recently Joe Saitta (eBay joepcc699@aol.com) dribbled out a series of Brighton Beach/Coney Island area blue prints from the Dual Contracts rebuilding ers, showing original track layouts and buildings. I'm familiar with these (they're very rare, but not one-of-a-kind). The first one he put, which I don't have, I would have gone up to maybe $100 for, but it went for over $300.
Then he put up some more, which also bid high, but most of the bidding seems to have been between two people, at least one of whom posts on SubTalk.
But I think the bidders may be tapped out--despite a minimum bid of "only" $48, Joe's most recent offerings from this series haven't got a bid.
I don't criticize anyone bidding any price for something they want. I just hope they want and value it for itself. I suppose there are some people who are driven to bid by the assumed scarcity alone.
as PT Barnum once said..........
Peace,
ANDEE
eBay must be the second greatest thing on the internet (SubTalk, of course, being the greatest). Some things on eBay are bid into the heavens, and others are overlooked and go for the proverbial song. The BMT map is a real collectible as it's hand drawn and has a charm that computer-generated graphics can't approach. (I'm not denigrating the great track and route maps on this site.)
Oh no, we better put bars over the one in 1227 !
Mr t
Here is another one, starting at $25.00
The scan's a little blurry, but it looks like the same edition, June 1933. I hope there was only one edition in that month.
But this is not always the case. I recently found that the New York Telephone Company produced two editions of its NYC subway map dated July 1955, one with the Rockaway Line Extension as a dashed line 'under construction', the other showing the completed line with the legend "Open June 1956". I think probably the latter was really produced in July 1956, and they just forgot to change the identifying code on the front, which still said "7-55". So you can't always rely on the date codes of subway maps. (In comparison, the date codes on the London Underground maps were often quite erratic, until they were dropped completely in 1997.)
It'd be nice if there were a comprehensive list of these NYC subway maps somewhere, to cross check reference codes. For the London Underground, Anne Letch published a booklet in 2000, listing every known official map of the Underground back to early 1920s. I've never seen a comparable list for NYC. Here on this site, http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/maplist.html, Todd Glickman has built up a list of map editions, but it stops at 1963. And BMTlines has information about the maps, at http://www.bmt-lines.com/maps.html, but no complete list. I've been putting together what information comes my way at http://www.ursasoft.com/maps/NewYork/newyork.htm, but I know that this has large gaps.
Does anyone know of a complete list anywhere on the net?
there are enough of us who collect ny subway maps that we could probably put together a fairly comprehensive list. one of my projects for a rainy day [or 20], way into the future, is to document the changes that were reflected in each change of map editions.
This seems a worthy project IMHO. It's something that transport museums ought to have done already. Well, the London Transport Museum seems to hold the study of Tube maps fairly low down in their scale of priorities (even though they jealously guard their revenue from the copyright). I don't know whether the NY Transit Museum takes a more lively interest in the NY Subway maps. I didn't discover the existence of the museum until after my last visit to NYC, so I don't know what map exhibits they have.
(I just took a quick look at the web site. Curiously, they currently have an exhibition on *London's* Underground "and the way in which American expertise has influenced this process". It says "American influence has been vital in helping London keep on the move", as an example of which it cites Bob Kiley, who hasn't done anything here yet. It does mention "the groundbreaking design of the Tube map", but neglects to mention its influence on the subway maps of the world, such as the designs by Salomon and Vignelli for NYC. Fortunately, I'll be able to see it on my Christmas visit to NY.)
Yup good ol' LIRR had another problem with their ancient signal system this afternoon, fortunately it didn't mess me up too much. I was waiting for the 5:14pm westbound train out of LOng Beach, where I would take it to Lynbrook. Anouncements state due to signal problems all eastbound trains are skipping stops between Valley Stream and Jamaica. There were no trains when I got there, and I was worried we'd be late, since my train was supposed to arrive awhile ago, at 4:44pm. Announcements state it's running 15 minutes late into Long Beach, but all westbound trains are on or close to schedule. Finally pulls in at 5:06pm, and we leave 10 minutes later at 5:16pm (another train arrived right after mine).
Fortunately I get to Lynbrook in time to make the 5:45pm N25 to Great Neck. While stopped at the NHP grade crossing I saw an E/B electric MU on the westbound track stopping at NHP, and a Bi-level fly by it on the E/B track going east.
I'm so glad I don't have to ride LIRR.
The Times says that Mark Green and Fred Ferrer are irresponsible to talk about improved parks and the Second Avenue Subway. It implied that plans to improve the NYC schools will have to be dropped. The Post also wants school spending cut.
ALL THESE ARE AREAS WHERE NYC SPENDS LESS THAN AVERAGE!
What about categories where NYC spends more than average, such as Medicaid and public employee pensions? No mention.
Can't cut the winners. Got to cut the losers. Prepare for what is coming: hell for the majority, keep the deals going for the minority.
>>Prepare for what is coming: hell for the majority, keep the deals going for the minority.<<
Of course you realize that those affected most be the poor school system are not the majority (I'd like to know who that is in your mind anyway) but the minority. And the "minority" would also benefit greatly by the second av subway.
Of course you realize that those affected most be the poor school system are not the majority (I'd like to know who that is in your mind anyway) but the minority. And the "minority" would also benefit greatly by the second av subway.
He's talking about real majorities and minorities, not fictional (race-based) ones.
I was at the Broadway-East New York Station, walking the (L) platform...saw a bunch of R42s i there with (J) and (M). Spotted an R42 with the front sign ...
Then noticed...in the distance...an R40 slant train, signed with (J)!!!!! Is this the beginning of R40 slants on the J line??? Or is it just something else? I KNOW I SAW (J) ON ALL EIGHT R40 SLANT CARS, SO NO ONE BETTER TELL ME I WAS DREAMING OR SEEING THINGS...lol
--Cleanairbus
BTW, it was a brown , not a yellow ...
--Cleanairbus
Wonder what kind of "J" it was - there are two kinds - one with a full umbrella handle (tail of "J" goes all the way round to 9 o'clock), one with half (tail stops at 6 o'clock). Same thing with "Q"'s there are two kinds - one with the tail growing out of the circle , the other with the tail through the circle.
wayne
The slants had the same old GOH rollsigns that the rest of the R40-46 had when first rebuilt. They used Akzidenz(Standard MEdium, Gothic 725), which hs the same "J as the similar Franklin Gothic J
The R-46's have this too, and it sure looks strange with that J on the front.
But newer signs have gone back to Swiss/Helvetica, which use the "umbrella handle" (or candy cane) shape, as well as the Q with the tail going through the circle.
I display and compare the two fonts at the bottom of my Line History page. (BTW, WTC service change info coing soon)
It's possible to get a slant 40 on the J, but it would be very rare. The slants that are running on the M are property of Coney Island Yard and the slants on the L rarely come off that line.
In other words: don't get used to it.
Is it common to see R-40 slants on the Q to Continental? I saw one at 7am on Wednesday morning. I have not seen any other than just that one.
Not common at all. A rare sight.
Wow..I haven't seen a slant on Queens Blvd. since 1975..it would REALLY be cool to see one on the express...
I don't see why the TA is so anal-retentive about equipment assignments. What's the big deal if a ENY R40 runs on the L or J ?.
Because Wayne will only allow shovelnoses on Canarsie =)
Welllll, I have let my slanted buddies go out on the "Z" occasionally! :o>
It would be a real treat to see one on the "J".
wayne
Ive read somewhere way back when,due to the slant feature on the R40s and the drasticly tight curves on the Broadway EL,the 40s were band from operating regular service.
Nah, that's not true. The J doesn't run slants because the L uses them all.
The curves at Crescent and Cypress Hills are tight but no tighter than those outside of Myrtle Avenue (where CI Slants now toil in "M" service) AND/OR north of Cortlandt Street where they've been running on the "N" for quite some time. I'd be more worried about people trying to cross between "B" ends without the safety handles. This is true not only of the Slants but the R40Ms as well.
wayne
Why are there no safety handles on the two R-40 variants? I feel perfectly at ease walking between cars as long as I carefully watch my step and hold onto the grab bars. Changing cars on the R-40 makes me quite nervous. (On the R-142, too -- there are grab bars but thanks to the double doors I need three hands to use them. The double doors are a misfeature, IMO.)
I am not sure why grab handles were not installed on the R40 models; this is true of both the Slants and the M's, and only between the "B" ends. The R42 order corrected this oversight. I refuse to cross between the "B" ends of either car type while the train is in motion.
wayne
The mismated cars of 4460/4665: the conductors have to be careful since 4460 has no grab irons, yet 4665 does!
I try to go door handle-to-door handle crossing through the 'B' ends of a Slant, though that stupid little notch is a problem there (the price of having a long slim door with the child-friendly railfan windows at the `A' end, I guess).
I don't outright refuse but I certainly don't do it as often as I would otherwise.
The A ends of R-40's don't have grab bars, either, but the other safety contraptions make for a usable substitute. (Grab bars wouldn't be of much help, in any case, since they'd be out of reach.)
I wish they would have 100 pairs or R40M's and R40S's swap mates.
Then they could run as 4 car sets.
This was the gap train. I was assigned to it this morning. Now of course they weren't going to let me move it a single foot in the yard, since my year isn't up. So they had the yard switcman do most of the making it up, and he moved it to the last homeball at the head of the yard, where I took it over. I took it to Broad (exp. track all the way in Bklyn.), wherea switchman there picked it up to take it to what is now the layup tracks.
Then I deadheaded to Jamaica, wondering if they would use it, and had one passenger trip to 95th and back. On the way out, I passed it heading for Jamaica. On the way back, I passed it heading back to the yard. When I signed out, it was up on the deck (the higher tracks in ENY). So go figure. This was ENY (L) assigned equipment, including 4446-7, not CI.
what are some good books about nyc in the 60's-80's dealing with urban renewal, the fiscal crisis, white flight etc. i know this question is kinda off topic but those books would definitely mention the declining transit system. i'm not looking for any books written by college professors for college professors who are trying to be as wordy as humanly possible but i'm not looking for pop-up books either. so far i know i wanna read "the death and life of great american cities" by jane jacobs.
thanks,
tim
p.s. also any good movies or websites. the pbs documentary on ny was very well done i thought.
If architecture and urban planning is in your area of interest, I would recommend Ada Louise Huxtable's "Kicked a Building Lately?" She was the architecture critic for the New York Times in that period (the book was originally published in 1976) and the book is a series of essays originally published in the Times. Two essays discuss Battery Park City and the World Trade Center, another Penn Station. It was published by the University of California Press, Berkeley, and the ISBN is 0-520-06207 for the paperback.
yes i am interested in architecture, history, urban planning, transit.
i used to work in the world trade center until 3 weeks ago and i was always amazed by those buildings. beautiful buildings? no. amazing buildings? yes. i always searched online for pics on the construction of the wtc but never found anything good. and now of course everyone wants to see pics of the wtc and everything will be focused on the destruction of them. i heard there was a skyscraper museum in the towers and now its obviously destroyed, i didn't even know it existed, i definitely would have visited it.
The Skyscraper Museum wasn't at the WTC. They're waiting for a permanent home at the new Ritz-Carlton in Battery Park City. A new exhibit about the WTC will open at the New York Historical Society in the meantime. See http://www.skyscraper.org
what are some good books about nyc in the 60's-80's dealing with urban renewal, the fiscal crisis, white flight etc. i know this
question is kinda off topic but those books would definitely mention the declining transit system.
The Streets Were Paved with Gold by Ken Auletta is an excellent account of the city's financial crisis of the 1970's. I read it 15 or more years ago, before my railfan days, so offhand I can't quite remember the extent to which it focused on transit, but certainly there must have been a reasonbly detailed discussion given transit's role in the city.
It's probably now out of print, but you should be able to get a copy through Amazon or maybe at the Strand.
Also the new book "The Ungovernable City" by Vincent J. Cannato deals with John Lindsay's two terms as New York City mayor, the second of which ran from 1970-71-72-73 and includes the period when the city's "creative accounting" practices really started the ball rolling to the 1975 backruptcy.
Since it just came out two months ago, any local bookstore will have it. Of course, it's only out in hardcover right now, so the bottom price you'll find it for is around $20.
There was also New York in the Sixties. It has many, many photos taken by a German photgrapher during the summer of 1968. There are some subway photos including the interior of an R-17 on the 1; R-7/9s on the KK; R-27/30s on the QJ; and WF R-36s on the 7.
Best book ever written in the 70's?
"Seeing New York-The Official MTA Travel Guide".
This book has been harder to find than Osama Bin Laden (don't start up any s*it now).
BTW, (Zman gets on knees) anybody got a copy that they'd like to sell ($$$) or trade? I've got plenty-o-train goodies.
I'd offer a left testicle for the "Dining in the Bronx" section. :P
Oh sheet ... that's what was on da menu.
>>>>>>>I'd offer a left testicle for the "Dining in the Bronx" section. :P
Oh sheet ... that's what was on da menu
Tell ya what. If I ever get a copy of this book, then I'll rip out the "Dining in The Bronx" section for you. My palate is not fond of testicle popsicles.
Never been to the Bedford Park crew room, EH mister smarty-pants? They're in the candy machine. 25 cents a pop. :)
>>>>>>>>>Never been to the Bedford Park crew room, EH mister smarty-pants? They're in the candy machine. 25 cents a pop. :)
OH YEAH BIG SHOT?????? Well just to tell you, they're now FIFTY cents each.......................................................and they're sold out.
Hahaha ... Yep, you BEEN to Bedford ... there's a few caught in the chute but I won't press the issue. It'd require a top charge to get them out. :)
As long as those suckas have been in there, eat one and you'll have a BOTTOM charge. Talk about "take it to the end and dump it".
Heh. Yeah, you strike me as one of those guys who after determining that it ain't YOUR consist, go and kick that little dangling yellow thing on the front wheel and then whistle away on the tracks as you head to your own grab irons. Ayup. :)
Seriously though, that MTA guide from the 70's musta been a MIGHTY thin book. Lemme see for anyone who remembers ... "breakfast at Yankee Frankee" ... or that fine French restaurant, "Naydeeks" (Nedicks) ... or perhaps those 5 star Adams gum machines that only had Dentyne in pebble, rock and boulder sizes. Or perhaps a $1 off coupon for a nice thick TAD'S STEAK. Heh.
A good book displaying Transit in the 70s is called "Subway Art" its difficult to get but could be easier online then in the stores because Barnes and Nobles for example refuses to carry it because it "gets stolen too much" I swear thats what the clerck told me at 2 different locations (by Lincoln Center and at Union Square) but I love my copy.
A good book displaying Transit in the 70s is called "Subway Art" its difficult to get but could be easier online then in the stores because Barnes and Nobles for example refuses to carry it because it "gets stolen too much" I swear thats what the clerck told me at 2 different locations (by Lincoln Center and at Union Square) but I love my copy
Not surprising ... people who are into graffiti probably also tend to have sticky fingers.
har har....yea a guess you are right partialy, since the traditional way of gathering paint is "racking" or steaing.
Every day I ride the Q from Sheapshed bay to Atlantic avenue,then the 4 to 14 street(it was the 4 to fulton then a block walk to 1 Liberty Plaza).And everyday some asshole blocks the subway door from closing,then the same bastard complains about service being o so slow.Please spare me from this bullshit.In the past month,90 % of the times my train(s) had been delayed was because either some psyco called a bomb scare on the Lirr,some nut pushed a woman,man or(from now on god forbidd)a chind on to the tracks,or some loon puts his tounge or any other sanitary or non sanitary bodypart onti the 3 rail.Even though I only been through one of these situations in a month,I am getting sick of people blaming the MTA for the shit they (or you) do.For the past 15 years the MTA has been providing you and every other straphanger with the safest & best subway service their money can provide.And I for one don't appreciate it when some ditz throw their trash (or waste) into the path of an oncoming 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,L,M,Q,,S,S,S,S, or W train.And I don't appreciate it when someone curses out the train operator or conductor just because they didn't get enough info(or someone ails to hear a diversion until the final minuite).
Ah, a fellow Sheepshead Bay Brighton Line rider!
Outside of the cursing, this was very well said, and I agree. However, I have a question: Since the Q/Q and the #4 (and #5) are both going to Union Square, why transfer to the #4?
David
1st sorry about the cursing I had a bad day,The reason I transfer to the 4 is because I usually meet friends at Fulton Street.Plus the ride over te bridge is extremely slow(though If you want to get a picture of the New York skyline then I reccomend the Q,,& W).
The extra time associated with the detour via Fulton Street is assignable to the person making the detour, not NYCT. The person making the trip should allow enough time to make that detour. Slow as it may seem, the trip via the Manhattan Bridge is likely to be faster than one that slogs its way through lower Manhattan.
David
Well said... but there's another thing that pisses me off, an that's when people mark up thw windows and place grafitti eveywhere. They try to pry open doors when the train's moving... oy... what can ya do about it?
Hope that they don't
>>what can ya do about it? <<
What I would like to do would only get me in more trouble than it would the miscreants.
Amen to that!
I wish the users of NYCTransit stop acting like they are still living in a third world country.
hmmmmm...................sounds like rush hour freeway traffic in los angeles ................lol !!
I would be useing the LIRR on Saturday. So I got some Questions.
1. Where is the exit at Northport Station?
2. Do Bi-Levels run to Port Jeff?
3. Can I buy Tickets a day before I go on the train?
Thanks!
After Huntington I believe it's all bi-levels, you CAN buy tickets a day before you go. You can also buy them on the train, they normally don't tag on the 2 dollar surcharge fee. Someone else please answer the Northport exit!
You can buy your tickets up to 90 days before you use them. After 90 days trainmaen are not supposed to accept them but some do. they can be exchanged for a refund for up to 1 year.
East of Huntington, all service is diesel. That means only bi-levels out to Port Jeff.
As for the exit at Northport - it's opposite the entrance.
Correction! Exit at Northport is at the middle of the platform, at the ticket office, a pedestrian foot bridge for the south parking lot, and at the east end of the platform going to Larkfield Road crossing. All trains east of Huntington is diesel, and all of them are the bi-level cars. Some eastbound trains start at either Hicksville or Huntington for eastbounds, and Westbounds terminate at Huntington, Hicksville, or Jamaica depending which train you are on. If you had never been on those cars, they are so much better than the so-called cattle cars that the LIRR once had. They are better riders than the electrics, you'll see.
To answer the unasked question about NJT:
Tickets are good for one year including the day of purchase. The on train penalty is $3. If you use a Round trip ticket (CXheapere than two one-way tickets) to Newark(Penn or Broad), Hoboken, Atlantic City or NY Penn during the AM Rush or transfer there you havr to pasy full one-way fare. The train crew will make you pay the difference between your ticket and the cost of the two one-way tickets.
Electric- North Jersey Coast( to Long Branch only) , Northeast Corridor, Midtown direct (To Dover only), Hoboken to Dover. Diesels are barred from the Hudson River Tunnel and from NY Penn. NJT does run some diesels on therse lines from Newark or Hoboken.
The Montclair and Gladstone branches are electric also...
Montclair is temporarily diesel due to construction of the Montcalir connector which will connect the Boonton line to the Montclair Branch. The Caternary has been temporaily denergized. Once this connection is completed boonton line trains from Hackettstownm will travel along the Montclair Branch and Boonton Stations East of the connector will eb abandoned.
Montclair Branch and Boonton Stations East of the connector will eb abandoned.
Not if the residents there have anything to say about it.
Right, but that is what NJT *wants* to do!
The Boonton line trains will run down the Montclair Branch. There will be no service east of the junction on the Boonton line. This is not news, and the local residents know it.
There will be no service east of the junction on the Boonton line.
What will happen to the stations east of the Boonton junction?
Man! I have to schedule and act fast if I ever want to railfan down the Boonton Line! Hope NJT doesn't close it before we get to it.
Railfan Pete.
Those stations are soon to be history.
To answer the unasked question about NJT:
Best expressed your knowledge? Looks like you posted some info. that came out of nowhere.
Your post was inundated with broken letters which I have trouble reading like "CXheapere" and "pasy"
The on train penalty is $3.
Not if ticket offices are open or TVM's are available. Stations on the Gladstone Branch west of Summit don't have TVM's and their ticket offices are open weekdays and are closed during the evening around 6-7pm.
I still don't know WHY NJT has this issue. Does it blame people for their responsibility to buy a ticket?
Diesels are barred from the Hudson River Tunnel and from NY Penn. NJT does run some diesels on therse lines from Newark or Hoboken.
This includes the Raritan Valley line, the Waterfront Connection (from Raritan), and NEWARK EXPRESS trains. Most NEWARK EXPRESS use ALP-44's but periodically they would use GP40PH2's. (I saw three of them on the 6:20p train at Metuchen on three different days. (I SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT MY CAMERA).
Anyone know WHY diesels are allowed through the Bergen Tunnels but not in the Hudson tubes? (I'm not talking about the former PATH)
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated via e-mail.
I'll explain why in the next post.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The diesels can go through the tunnels, but the only ones that can get through are the GE Genesis class. The others are too large to get in, and then there is the matter of that 11,000 volt catenary up on the ceiling. The LIRR has two special diesel switchers parked outside of Harold Tower to use to rescue any stranded MU trains in the tunnels, but that is about it, unless someone out there knows something that I do not.
On all NJT Trains, with the exception of the Atlantic City Line,the on board $3 penalty has been waived until October 31. It was originally waived from the days following the WTC disaster until September 31, but it was extended to October 31. According to the memo, it was something about travel patterns changing, giving customers a chance to adjust. Whenever I sell a ticket on the train at one of the affected stations, I will always say "For A Limited Time Only...", this way they won't expect to pay that fare forever. BTW, an "affected station" is where there are ticket vending machines or ticket agents available. That would be the where you would normally charge the $3 penalty for on board purchase.
Are you a Conductor for NJT. If so, e-mail me off site . I have an idea for a porjwect for you.
Bi-levels? Can you tell me on which lines run these and where I can get more info. about them?
Railfan Pete.
All diesel trains:
1) north of Mineola to Oyster Bay (except the AM rush East Williston MU)
2) east of Huntington to Port Jeff
3) east of Ronkonkoma to Yaphank, Riverhead, or Greenport
4) east of Babylon to Patchogue, Speonk, the Hamptons, Montauk
5) Almost any train west of Jamaica to Hunterspoint Av or Long Island City (except a Ronkonkoma train in the PM rush, don't know about the Huntington train in the AM rush - there's an MU shortage).
Train 1621 (6:49 from Huntington to HPA) is a bi-level train consisting of 5 cars. That train was combined last summer with train 607 out of Port Jeff which had 8 cars until the schedule switch with the main line track work finished. When I am on 607, I always pass that train which is on the #2 B platform track.
Thanks for the answers! And I would be rideing the LIRR on Monday now. Since I had to go to the bronx today.
A one-way (or round trip, which in the MTA is simply two one-ways) can be used for up to 90 days after its purchase. Really much longer...I've never seen a conductor check the date at the back of a ticket.
:-) Andrew
1-I have no idea
2-yes
3-you can supposedly use tickets 3 months after purchase, Though I have used 2 year old tickets
Just to let you guys know, a four-car set of R-143's (cars 8101-05, I believe) were spotted approaching Liberty Junction. I was on a southbound A train (the 1215-A 207/FAR) at the time and I saw the brand new cars heading in the opposite direction. I guess the train was undergoing speed testing along the "flats".
Mark
What are the subway speed limits across Manhattan Bridge? Is it different by time of day? Going between DeKalb and Canal (and even Grand prior) feels like an eternity sometimes, even with no shortage of Green signals.
Also, if a W and Q/Q Express approach the inbound merged track lead to the bridge at the similar time, how do they prioritize who goes first? Do they try space out the 3 inbounds in any order?
Speed limits in the NYC subway system (Manhattan Bridge included) do not differ by time of day. However, with trains spaced more closely together during rush hours, any little "hiccup" in train flow is going to have a more significant ripple effect on trains behind the one with the problem (often as simple as someone holding the doors) than during the rest of the day. This is often simplified in train on-board announcements as "congestion ahead" (a term which, by the way, NYCT's announcement guidebook prohibits, since it's not specific enough).
As far as trains moving too slowly through green signals, this is a pet peeve of mine, and not only on the bridge (I've observed Train Operators coasting through green signals on level, straight track with no speed restrictions of any kind, mechanical or otherwise). There are timed signals on the bridge to limit train speed, especially on the downgrade. They start at 25 MPH and work their way down to around 18 MPH as the train proceeds downgrade. However, some Train Operators (especially over the last few years) are ultra-conservative and pilot their trains at well below the limit. Instead of watching the next signal turn yellow "in their face" or even as the train passes each signal, they see the next signal turn green as the train passes each signal.
As to whether there's an order by which trains are supposed to climb the Manhattan Bridge, yes, there is, and it's set by the timetable. Southbound, it's Q local/Q express/W (via bypass). Northbound, I believe it's that way, too, but I'd have to check.
David
However, some Train Operators (especially over the last few years) are ultra-conservative and pilot their trains at well below the limit. Instead of watching the next signal turn yellow "in their face" or even as the train passes each signal, they see the next signal turn green as the train passes each signal.
In GT areas, Bulletin procedure wants us to let the signal we are approaching turn from yellow to green as we pass it. This ensures that the next signal will be yellow and not red. My experience with the Manhattan Bridge timers (and with timers in many other places*) is that if I approach them at the POSTED speeds, I will hit them, since they will still be red. Prefering to keep both my job and my clean record, I will approach them at a speed I feel comfortable with, which is usually some 5 to 8 mph LESS than what is posted. Sorry if that bugs you, but IMO the choice between a little less travel time and my job is clear.
* Southbound from 103 to 96 on the 1 - posted at 30, clears at 25;
Northbound from Bay 50 to 25 Ave - posted at 15, clears at 8;
orthbound from 20 Ave to 18 Ave on the West End - posted at 25, clears at 19 in your face;
southbound from Ft Hamilton to New Utrecht -posted at 30, clears at 20;
I could go on, but you get the idea.
L Line in the river tube is the only place that I know were you race up to a red signal. I meen the timer are posted at 50mph, they don't have a luner white or a "S" under them. You don't know if they are going to change. If you know if there is a train in front of you, you take your time, if not you got it to about 25mph by the first red signal then rap it around when that one clears to yellow. By the time you get to the last red signal, if you did it right you will not see it change to green. You will be about 52mph at this signal and you can reach about 55mph or more if you have a fast train.
Robert
Since when are you supposed to race up to a red signal? Rules and regulations mandate by bulletin that you now slow your train down as soon as you see a yellow aspect displayed on a wayside signal, and by the rulebook that you never assume a train ahead to be clear for you to move. If you are not receiving a lunar white under the red aspect, or the "S" under the yellow aspect, and the signal clears for no apparant reason (no train KNOWN to be ahead of your current block position), then it is a non conforming signal and should be called in.
Oh heck. I know that you're on a warpath, but you could write up the whole L line for those reasons (why do I have a feeling that you just might?)
Since I might one day have to represent them, I have no need to write them up. I would encourage them to write up defective signals instead. But how do you "know: that it is indeed defective? One problem is the rule book conflicts here which get you into trouble. The rulebook says that when you observe a red aspect with a lunar white displayed under it, you will approach it at allowable speed according to the GT approach sign. TA says it is still a red signal, which I disagree with. The control center will argu with you that the last signal was yellow. You are screwed one way or another so when you are presented with a conflict between 2 rules, the more restrictive one applies. I would choose to write up L line management for allowing these problems to exist, and get them to put it on signals. Hypothetical question: How do you "know" if your train is taking power with the doors open before reporting it to Control?
Faulty TO indication that comes in BEFORE the CR turns the key.
It happened to me at Union Sq when I was a CR on the N. I had closed the doors in the front, did not have indication, reopened and the train began to move (not roll) Train taken out of service found to have faulty TO indication.
But as a Train Operator, how do you KNOW? If you tested the bypass circuit, you are O/S for stupidity, as you are not supposed to advance the controller until you have indication. You must also stop the train immediately upon losing indication. How do you know your deadman isn't working before reaching the terminal? Lots of hypothetical questions that you will take a beating for these days that they used to leave you alone on.
If it is a single-shot timer (lunar white or Canarsie-style)
then there is supposed to be some margin engineered into the
time setting. If the allowable posted speed is say 20 MPH, the
timer should be set to clear at 25. Of course, this was from back
in the days before speedometers, so some margin had to be allowed
because the fact that the signal cleared was your indication of
speed. If the timer is set to clear at _exactly_ the posted speed,
then the signal will clear and the arm will go down in your face!
The timers in the 14St tube are just plain ridiculous. How are
you supposed to have your train under control AND be operating at
45 MPH with the red signal less than a train length away?. Signal
dept should add lunar whites to those signal heads.
If the wording of the bulletin says "approach lunar white at
posted allowable speed", that bulletin is defective. Obviously
if you enter a block in advance of which is a lunar white timer
set for 20 MPH, but you are doing 40 when you enter the timing
circuit and then reduce speed so you are doing 20 just as you
"approach" the signal, you are going to hit it. If you were
doing 20 or less when you entered the circuit, and your speed
never increased beyond that, there was a lunar white, and
you still hit it, then it shouldn't be your fault, that's
obviously a defect.
OK, deadman.....does current rule require you to test the deadman
at the terminal? Testing the M/M indication circuit without
violating any rule....that's a tough one. Who says you have to
do this anyway? I'd advocate popping the motors with the brakes
on and the doors open at the terminal if you really wanted to
perform this test, but that's not allowed anymore.
If you were doing 20 or less when you entered the circuit, and your speed never increased beyond that, there was a lunar white, and
you still hit it, then it shouldn't be your fault, that's
obviously a defect.
I agree, that is a defect. Trouble is Control will usually ask you what the aspect of the last signal was and most will bite. If I didn't violate rule 40(N) by passing a red signal, being a red differs from a red with the lunar white, then they will rack on 98G because I passed a yellow with my train not under full control. The issue of the white light needs to be taken up at arbitration one of these days, but I imagine that once you pass the yellow, you are considered to be approaching the red, even if you can't see it yet. I think those L line guys should be slowing down in the tubes and not racing up to red signals, whether or not they also display a white lamp. Like in the Cranberry Tubes, they will eventually learn the hard way. So far they are just lucky.
In the L line tubes, almost every time I go through with a railfan window, I see GT 45 and then the red signals clear in my face. Also, I don't believe the L line has any yellow-over-S in fact there are some signals that can't show yellow at all. Please confirm?
All signals on the L line have working yellow aspects. There are "yellow-S" signals on the L line. They are all on the elevated section south of Broadway Junction.
You someone explain to those to those of us with less knowledge of the technical workings of the operations what yellow-s signals mean?
I believe they have something to do with times, but would appreciate more information.
Thanks
Bill
There is a great section of this website that explains it in detail with pictures too.
For info see the signals portion of this website.
Quickly,
a yellow S times how long it takes for the train to get from one point to another, and if it isn't too fast, it'll turn to green, otherwise, it won't change and the next signal which is red will stay red instead of change to yellow/green. This is how the TA controls speed around curves, hills, etc.
I ride the L, but do not and will not work it. I would not survive there, I would never be on time, I would always have my follower catch up to me for the simple reason that I DO NOT OPERATE IN THAT MANNER THRU GRADE TIME CONTROL!
It is the only line that can be done like this. The Singal in te river don't have any indercation if there on time or not. That why the TSS on the line told me to watch to see how close the train in front is. If I see a train two trains in fount of me I take my time.
Robert
Breaking in the T/O had me wait a minute and a half at first ave to give the leader additional time. Honestly that seems silly waiting just so you can impress a railfan on the timers. I don't like being stuck in the tunnel but some are mortally in fear of it. Me it's walking the Willy B while BIE in the rain on the midnights
I will not approach a red signal at the speed you and many other L line t/o's do in the 14th St. tube. How do I know it is going to clear just in time when I am on top of it? Suppose the timing mechanism is cranky? Suppose a signal maintainer was out there between now and the time you made your previous trip and perhaps slowed down the timer? Suppose there is a track circuit ahead and the signal won't clear? You were supposed to key by with permission from CC. But you hit the signal! You failed to have your train under control being able to stop at a red signal! How do you know that perhaps your leader stalled going up the grade just short of First Ave., he didn't get on the radio for whatever reason and a signal was red because there was a train ahead of you?
Do L line T/Os get a guide to how to go through the tube, i.e does the T/A encourage running up to the signal or are you left out on a limb?
You do not get a guide to go through the tubes. When you first start on the line, a line TSS will take you through one round trip explaining how to operate the line. You try to remember what you can and learn the line day by day.
The TSSes don't always pick you up your first trip anymore or even give you a full trip (except for the A TSSes). The L gave us a guide to the line with the speed each timer should clear at. Should being the operative word because if you hit something they don't know you.
Please post the Bulletin number. I've been looking through the bulletins, and I haven't found it (I'm not denying "Alex L."'s veracity; I'd just like to see the thing for myself).
David
I don't remember a bulletin on this, but I can verify that TSS's tell all T/O's to "pass on the green" when it comes to timers. The L line (underground portion) is the only exception.
Like Alex said, if you come up to a GT 25 area, and you do 25 mph, then there's a 98% chance that the timer is not going to clear. 5 mph below the speed limit is a generally practiced rule of thumb. In certain areas, you have to do 10 mph less in order for the timer to clear.
If you have a problem with T/O's going slow through timer areas, don't blame us, blame the Signal Dept. for not programming the timers to clear at the posted speed.
The areas I'm most peeved about -- because they're on my "home" line and I witness this almost every day -- are on the Brighton Line from Seventh Avenue to Atlantic Avenue northbound, and from Seventh Avenue to Prospect Park southbound. Northbound, the timers are posted for 35 MPH, and southbound, they're posted for 40 MPH. A friend in NYCT in a position to know such things tells me that these timers are really set for something slightly above the posted speed. Yet, I rarely see anybody do more than 20 or so in either direction. In fact, the Train Operators often go so slowly through these areas that when they pass the last timer, they're still braking -- for a (non-timer) green signal! It's a combination of poor training (which I've witnessed) and timidity, plus Labor Relations-type issues that have been alluded to on this board recently.
David
Well, you can blame some of it on poor training, but also you have to remember that 40% of the crews are R crews. They don't know how to operate the timers and were not shown how to properly operate through them. Also, if a T/O hasn't gone through an area in a while, he/she may have forgotten how to operate the area. I know that I'd need a couple of runs to get re-acclimated since I haven't operated a train in that area in about 3 years.
Maybe 40% of the Train Operators going through the area NOW are R line Train Operators, but prior to mid-September that was not the case, and the problem of going through Brighton Line timers at far less than the posted speed is nothing new -- it's been going on for years.
David
Well then, that 100% means that a good chunk of the regular Q line T/O's are WIMP-O-MATICS..................I HATE WIMP-O-MATICS.
I know that I'm gonna get a bit of flack for this.
I think you're right. A professional with experience on the job should be able to operate through the GT's, efficiently -AND- adhering to the pass-on-green rule. Overly slow is not efficient, it just ties up the railroad. The whole idea of two-shot GT's is that you're running against a Y or G aspect with no danger of tripping, vs. the R or Y proposition, with a trip thrown into the mix. 2-shots are easier on the brakes and help keep trains running at a higher average speed within the "controlled" area.
Notice I said "professional," a trait rapidly disappearing from our society in this time of over-entitlement.
If on a northbound Q, I operate cautiously and still get to Dekalb at my posted arrival time and make my M connection how am I slow?
If the timers clear to green right in front of you like on a series like the bridge you are really not losing much time. If they cleara car length in front you are.
You also have to remember that every day they fiddle with a timer in the system if you are a senior man on the line you know it because you are there every day. If I get the A once a month it's old news if it happens they slow down a timer. Chances are if Zman hit a recalibrated timer his C/O who is probably his regualr partner would not think a thing of covering it up. We all know Zman would bang himself in being so honest, like everyone here.
It happened to my already, I hit one and I had maintainers onboard they said people were hitting it all night. Or at Queens Plaza at least 3 people hit it the day of the V test when they brought all those extra crews in for the test.
The last time I had the A they screwed up and thought I was someone else I did not get held at Euclid, Jay or Canal, they caught up to me at 59th when the D was local one day after the WTC. I was held for at least 7 minutes and still got to Dyckman early. Thank God no other subtalkers were on that train they would still be complaining.
"If the timers clear to green right in front of you like on a series like the bridge you are really not losing much time. If they cleara car length in front you are."
Many times, Q Train Operators let the signal in front of them clear to green at least a carlength ahead. THAT's slow.
David
If I am running warm I do that to cool down before supervision cools me down, if I am on time I am more aggressicve to make a cushion and if I am late and it is my fault or the conductors I run aggressively. If I am late and it not my fault I no longer try to make up the time I run at normal speed because if I am already 5 late (for a door problem) there is no way to make it up during the rush because the platforms will be murder.
If you make your time there is no reason to push it, in fact you do the job harm when you do.
It's better, in my opinion, for supervision (meaning Train Dispatchers) to make such decisions. They can see what's ahead of an individual train and what's behind it. In addition, Train Operators adjusting their time on their own leads to a vicious cycle, in which:
1. Trains run slowly.
2. Either Traffic Checkers recording times put down those slow times, or RTO asks for more running time.
3. The Schedules unit adds time due to results of the traffic checks or RTO request.
4. Trains run MORE slowly.
In summary, every effort should be made to keep to the posted schedule. However, if the schedule is unrealistic in terms of running time, it should be adjusted -- this includes REDUCING running time as well as adding it. However, if Train Operators intentionally run slowly, this will get picked up by those monitoring such things and translate into additional running time that isn't really needed but looks like it is.
David
>It's better, in my opinion, for supervision (meaning Train >Dispatchers) to make such decisions.
Er, they do. They tell you when they want you to get to certain places on the route, in fact it is the train operators rule book responsibility to try to keep to that schedule.
There actually is a bias against extending times, pretty much anything under 5 minute late is ontime. So if every single T/O is 5 late they would not extend the time.
You are also missing the point that there is nowhere to go. Even when I am ontime on the A I usually lose a minute or two at the terminal because both pockets are full. Or I run into a C leader in the tunnel or a D at 59th St. In the meantime I ruin the spacing they want in the service. If your leader is on time it's bad service to ride their ass all the way to the terminal. Part of the timetable is meant to make even service and give a minute or two cushion for the unforseen which happenss everyday and at different places and in different ways almost every day.
Left out of this formula is the conductor. The difference on a fast and slow conductor on the midnight A can be as high as 5-10 minutes.
Er, they do. They tell you when they want you to get to certain places on the route, in fact it is the train operators rule book responsibility to try to keep to that schedule.
Provided it can be done safely. Don't forget about our little loophole.
>>>>>>>>We all know Zman would bang himself in being so honest
I think that you would've been proud of my spittake when I read that.
Another area T/O's seem to be cautous about is the E/B Steinway tube. Going from Grand Central there is hefty downgrade, trains will go fast until they get to the 1st ave GT's, then they are supposed to go the posted speed (I think it's 15mph) then at the P sign they are told to wrap it. The timers in the tube will clear no matter how fast you go after that point (according to a road instructor I saw on the 7). But most T/O's don't wrap it after the P, and are on the brakes until the last one goes from red to green, way ahead in the distance.
The result is little momentum and a slow ride through the Steinway tubes.
Are you advocating getting rid of GT 409? PLEASE! That is one of the most ill-placed GTs in the entire system. Only ONCE have I seen a T/O play it correctly; it's hard to judge and it comes right in the middle of a nice run. What the heck is it there for anyway - and don't say it's there to protect Malbone Street Station from a runaway train of BU gate cars!
wayne
The timers on the southbound Brighton Line from Seventh Avenue to Prospect Park (those are the ones, right?) are there to protect against a southbound Brighton train overrunning the Prospect Park station and fouling a Franklin Shuttle crossing in front of it. Only problem is, Franklin Shuttles just about NEVER do that! The timers are signed at a rather generous (for NYCT timers) 40 MPH, but, as I said, if the Train Operator goes through them at over 20 MPH it's a lot.
David
I'll say! Most of the T/O's I've seen treat GT 409 like the Troll under the bridge; they approach it with extreme caution and pussy-foot past it. The sign DOES state 40MPH. The one time I saw it played correctly was a southbound Slant Q, with #4150 (the original!) the lead motor. The T/O quickly got the R40 up to about 42 out of 7 Avenue then well ahead of 409 let it coast and when he reached the GT timed it perfectly; he was doing 37 at the signal (the cab door was slightly ajar).
wayne
Maybe we'll get lucky on the 25th.:-)
It seems like in the unlikely event of a Franklin Shuttle pulling out onto the SB express track, it would be adequately protected by approach signals on the express track being previously set at stop. Unless this is proven the switch won't move reverse in the first place. GT's alone aren't enough protection in this case.
Dave
I gave the reason -- didn't say it made sense :-)
David
I understand that you're frustrated David. When I ride the trains as a passenger, I "rate" the T/O's operation myself, without being up front. When my Wife is with me, I'll tell her "This T/O's a good one" or "This cat can't operate for s*it. Where'd they find him? Can they put him back?" Not a whole heckuva lot you can do about it except to maybe stumble upon a good T/O's run (and C/R's) and try to time your commute to it.
If I recollect, there's an approach at the north end of the station platform, that will trip any train with at least 600' feet of stopping distance before the switch in question. I'd be more incline to think the GT's protect the curve iself.
David, my fault. I go around quoting this one so often because it gets referred to incorrectly, and this time I did it. The original post should have said: By incorrectly referenced Bulletin, TSSs want us to...
Here is the Bulletin, followed by some more comments:
Bulletin 35-98 May 28 1998
To: ALL Employees (Especially Train Operators)
Subject: PASSING CAUTION SIGNALS
NYCTransit has engaged a consultant to perform an analysis of the existing signal system...Deficiencies in the stopping distances and safety margins of certain signal locations have been identified...In light of this TOs are reminded of their responsibility to adhere strictly to Rule 98(g) which states:
At anytime when passing a fixed signal indcating proceed, prepare to stop at the next signal, TOs must govern the speed of their trains so that there is no possibilty of their running past the next signal, should that signal indicate STOP. They must reduce speed to conform with Speed Limit Signs and other instructions before reaching curves and continue at the presribed speed until the entire train has rounded the curve. TOs must approach all STOP signals, trains ahead, junctions, and terminals with their trains under full control.
In order to ensure full compliance with this rule, effective immediately and until further notice, TOs observing a caution signal (yellow aspect) will adhere to the following instructions:
IF THE NEXT SIGNAL IS NOT VISIBLE OR IS RED
TOs will immediately place the Master Controller to the OFF or COAST position, and begin the braking sequence, if necessary, so that by the time the yellow signal is reached they are proceeding at a reduced rate of speed, prepared to stop at the next signal.
Please note that caution signals associated with Grade Time areas displaying an illuminated S or D are exempt from the above instructions. TOs operating in Grade Time areas governed by these signals will operate in accordance with the posted speeds.
Me again. The Bold statements above are as they were in the original bulletin. This bulletin conflicts with itself and the rulebook. As I noted previously, if I approach certain GT areas, with an illuminated S or D at the posted speed, I will put the train into emergency, since the red signal will not clear in time. After showing this Bulletin to a Superintendent in System Safety, he told me that if I operated per this Bulletin and hit a signal in such an area, he personally would clear me of all charges, because, "apparently, you're the only person who can read this correctly."
Since I'm writing this long before I post it, I did finally find the the place that usually gets quoted - In the Manhattan Bridge Route Guide that was prepared by District #3, on page 3, is a section entitled MOVEMENT THROUGH GRADE TIME TERRITORY, ILLUMINATED 'S' SIGNALS which says:
To move safely thru grade time territory incorporate the following into your operational approach. While in approach to each successive signal:
*Allow the displayed yellow aspect and associated illuminated 'S' indication to change in position, form and color to green
*Consider the general braking effort of the consist
*Percent of grade
*Posted maximum allowable speed for the area
*Prevailing weather conditions which may affect whell to rail adhesion
*Familiarity with signal and track configuration
So as you can see, no one around here can actually give straight answer to some of these questions of how to deal with timers; so the best advice I can offer is - operate as fast as you feel comfortable with thru GT areas, as long as you don't actually hit the red signal.
My understanding of Bulletins vs. Rule Book is that Bulletins supersede the Rule Book. Eventually the Rule Book is reissued, incorporating changes instituted by Bulletin. So where there is a conflict between a Bulletin and the Rule Book, the Bulletin takes precedence.
Any Train Service Supervisors or above out there who wish to comment on this?
David
Your assumption is absolutely correct.
Don't forget when they say 30, that means 30 for the whole block, you can't enter the block at 35 and slow to 30 and say you cleared it. I'm not trying to offend a T/O. I myself am not a T/O and do not want to seem like a know-it-all, I'm just offering an idea.
The timer is supposed to start when you pass the GT sign, which is not necessarily at the start of a block. I can arrive at the GT sign at all of those listed areas doing the posted speed and THEY WILL NOT CLEAR.
That's bad, problems like those cause all T/Os throught the system to approach timers going far below the posted speed refusing to accelerate until they see green. This results in a lot of speeding up and slowing down giving the passengers a bumpy ride.
>I'm just offering an idea
Even though many old timers could not state the formula they are MORE than familiar with average speeds thats how they can be going overspeed when they hit the last timer in the tunnels. That is how people can hit 60+ in some areas.
On the Manny B the posted speed is 25 for the timers as you are going uphill when you start to hit the timers you never reach 25 and will still trip them.
On the Sea Beach line in both directions betweeen Eight Ave. & 59th St. there are one shot timers (the ones with the red and illuminated lunar white aspect). The posted speed is 25 MPH, but you have to go less than 10 MPH in order for them to clear. Is it too much trouble asking signal dept. to either put up the proper GT sign or reprogram the timers to clear at 25? Also, around the time I left the E, all of a sudden one day a timer in the Cranberry (A&C) tube was slowed down without notice or GT sign being changed and several guys hit the signal. A timid train operator is one who has a better chance to stay out of trouble.
Unfortunately there is no incentive for a t/o to run on time. In
fact, because of the draconian disciplinary stance of RTO in
recent years, there is a strong dis-incentive against any kind
of "rapid transit" operation. If a t/o runs fast and hits a GT,
he or she is screwed, but if that same t/o dogs it day in and
day out and consistently comes into the terminal a few minutes late,
what's going to happen? Probably nothing. If the t/o is really lucky
he or she will get a late clear.
I used to think that most of the T/Os and Conductors who dogged the road could get away with murder in the TA under the excuse we are working to rule. But when we run late, we are harrassed and taken O/S just the same. The existance of Labor Relations hasn't changed over the years, their policies have since the union negotiated the 70/30 clause, which deducts 30% of my wages if I choose to work during a period of suspension, rather than take days in the street. A monetary incentive to write us up in the first place. But now in the year 2001, Line Superintendants are given Cart Blanche to assist those in Labor Relations in the overall quest to save the TA money. If the Incident Cover Form states further discipline checked, LR takes it from there.
If I run my train late due to a fog order and I am the only train late due to the fog order, I will be the one questioned for a written report by the Supt. Not the other 35 who ran their train in a reckless fashion. If on the other hand I run my train fast, ahead of schedule and run into holding lights on every trip, I run the risk of passing a stop marker, station platform or red signal. So here, I have to pick my weapon carefully. In the TA, the Supts are under pressure to present an on time railroad downtown. They will put pressure on their "favorite" crews to make up time. But when a SORC unit TSS cathes them with a radar gun over the speed limit or attempting to save time on door cycling, the Line managers either look the other way or tell you to be careful. Or even their own TSSs are writing up the infractions, in which there is a remote possibility to squash the discipline. But they usually don't so it goes back to the 70/30. In 1988 while a new conductor on the K train, I had a cab door fall off the hinges and isolated the car. One of the old practices was to cut out DC1 and 2 rather than cut out each door and of course under Murphy's Law, a door flew open and I had to see the line Supt. He was in charge of the discipline and my mistake didn't happen again. Now, the only recourse is re-instruction and it doesn't happen as much as it used to. So the bottom line, when the TA stamps a bulletin with "Every Second Counts", they are referring to the time you have left before seeing the trainmaster, or the time and a half you will put in for your troubles for obeying the rulebook. 'Nuff said.
The other end is that some trains can't make it up the hill in series...and the RTo's slam the throttle into parallel. Maybe if they release the snow brake???? Peter
I guess you're darned if you do, darned if you don't.
Right. I will get suspension time if I hit the signal. So I choose not to hit the signal, at the expense of customer convenience. Even if I am later to the terminal than others. I choose harassment over a 30% cut anytime and will take that to arbitration if necessary. I was once demanded for a written report on my conductor while working an N job because she took a comfort at Coney Island because on a supplement schedule, we left the terminal 6 minutes late. We clearly had 12 minutes turnaround time on paper, but because we really had 5 minutes due to late arrival, and because the dispatcher are still doing their railroads in pencil and "on time" and refused to work with me and my conductor, I wrote up the dispatcher instead of the conductor.
"NYCT's announcement guidebook"
Is there a way I can get one of these?
Write to NYCT and ask. Either they'll send one or say no.
NYC Transit
Division of Rapid Transit Operations
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn NY 11201
David
I went out and got a copy of the Bill Newkirk's Subway Calendar, and I must say how wonderful it is to see images from NYCT's past.
My favorite has to be the trio of R-17s coming down the West Farms El right around the bend into E. Tremont Av. Anyone notice how clean they were? Right out of the paint shop in coats of yellow and black!
Those were the days. The picture shows something you don't see anymore, as those R-17s no longer run, but have since gone into the big sky above us. At the front of the train is a survivor: 6895, which is still here, in 2001.
We see far less old IRT work motors since the R127/134 took over Refuse Operations some years ago, making the work motor a piece of history.
Great job, Bill.
-Stef
Stef,
Thanks for the compliment. On the image of the yellow R-17s, isn't the third car (#6801) originally part of the air conditioned consist that didn't work out ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I ordered mine by mail for the 4th year in a row and am, looking forward to it
That should be the one. Wait..... Let me check something - Cars 6800-09 had the experimental AC. You are correct!
-Stef
I like Miss October a little better, a R-17 earning her keep on Broadway at 181st.
Mr t
6614 was on the south end of the train. Wanna take a guess what was on the north end? 6688!!! @#$!
-STEF
Today's Wall Street Journal has a feature article about the obstacles to rebuilding Downtown Manhattan. Not surprisingly, given the paper's focus, much of the article deals with is starting to look like a strong reluctance on the part of many displaced businesses to return to the area. Of the ten businesses with the most space in the World Trade Center, one only, Deutsche Bank, has so far committed to returning to Downtown, while another one, Empire Blue Cross, has said it definitely won't be back. Several other companies haven't announced any plans but have quietly signed long-term leases in other locations. The article also points out something most of us probably have suspected, that the spirit of cooperation so evident since September 11 will likely have the shelf life of unrefrigerated fish during a heat wave.
Unfortunately, a couple of the article's comments concerning transit were more questionable. It said that three stations on the 1/9 are "wrecked." Say again? Only Cortlandt Street suffered physical damage. Fears that Rector Street was damaged proved unfounded, and trains are running through Chambers and Park Place (though not stopping at the latter due to area access limitations). The article also mentioned that thousands of commuters used the E line World Trade Center station. While it didn't come right out and say that the station was destroyed or damaged, that certainly was the implication; we know, of course, that the station was undamaged and is being used to turn trains.
As a businessperson, I've always regarded the Wall Street Journal's credibility as being somewhere between CNN and Fox News channel. I can't say I'm surprised, they covered Lucent and @home's fortunes with about the same degree of quality. :)
And this surprises you? That the media can't talk intelligently about the subway system in the town they live in?
There are three stations on the 1/9 that are currently not in service - therefore they must be wrecked, otherwise the trains would go there. I just went through this one with two CRs and a Dispatcher and had to finally give up, because they couldn't be bothered to listening to facts.
just remember how well the media do with with what you know--then imagine their capability when they send reporters out who don't even speak the local language.
The WSJ reported back on 9/24/01 that ex-WTC tenants have rented about 7 million square feet of new office space since 9/12/01. 66% of the space is in Manhattan, 33% of the space is in the suburbs. Too early to tell if this is a trend, but you know that once a firm moves out, they're gone for good.
On the weekend of 10/13 & 10/14 all WMATA will not collect fare on buses and subway.
Wayne
Any particular reason for this sudden outburst of generousity?
In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, tourism has been way down in DC, so they're attempting to get more locals to come downtown and spend money.
The Washington Post article says more...
Now, if only the MTA would do the same...
Or , at least free return from a tourist area on the weekend. this way only half fare. Near Zoos,sports complexes,mueseums,entertainment areas, shopping centers... recreation spots! The time and weather are right to bounce back!
avid
The Smithsonian reports a BIG drop in weekend tourists. There's no line to see the Hope Diamond!
So hop on a plane to DCA (just reopen), stay in a hotel (only 20% filled), eat in a DC restaurant (no reservations needed), and ride the Metro for free (no fares collected at all)!
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
Is it this weekend? Maybe if the weather holds I will go to the zoo, Orange Line to the Red Line
Nope, Next weekend.
still good, my niece has the flu and I have been promisingto take her to see the Pandas at the zoo
2 down 363 to go
Received from the TA by mail the 9/19/01 Map. Is that the latest or did they publish a new one since then.???
The map dated 9/19 is the latest one. It's possible it might have had corrections made.
No it has the E out to Lefferts
My friend just e-mailed me that MTA has issued the Map dated 10/1/01. Does any Subtalk get this map?
Chaohwa
That is just an online version.
They have not issued a new printed version yet.
Was the last printed "The Map" dated 9/19 where the E is going to Euclid?
>>Was the last printed "The Map" dated 9/19 where the E is going to Euclid? <<
Yes.
Thats the one I received today
They gave the 10/1/01 map today out to Stuyvesant students who are returning to battery park City.
On the way home tonight I picked up some of the 10/1 maps but they are the single sheet editions. I imagine that a regular full folded version dated 10/1 will be out shortly.
Actually, that one's out already... probably wont see it, but it's out. my friend just got one today... he said they were handing them out at the station... (sorry, don't know which one)
Yes they have, saw it at Woodhaven Blvd on the G/Q Friday Oct5.
I got one at Rock Parkway on the L. It is the same size as the color version of the 1 page 9/19/01 map (with no RR info or service info).
In as much as it does not show Chambers IND being open I expect another map any day now.
And $105 billion in overall damage, says Comptroller's Office.
Here's the article.
Seth
And $105 billion in overall damage, says Comptroller's Office.
Here's the article.
Heed the cautionary note in the article. The city wants to paint as bleak a picture as possible, in order to get as much federal $$$ as it can. The $3 billion figure for subway repairs ought to raise a few red flags - after all, the estimates for building the Second Avenue line are $1 billion per mile. Replacing maybe 1,500 feet of tunnel on the 1/9 and rebuilding the Cortlandt Street station can't remotely approach the cost of even one mile of totally new construction on Second Avenue.
Assuming they are not talking about a complete rebuild to the entire IRT/IND/BMT/PATH connection under the World Trade Center site, the $3 billion estimate to fix between 4-5 blocks of subway tunnel and one subway station comes out to $2 million a foot. Toss in the work on the BMT at Cortlandt and the cost goes down to about $1 million a foot.
I believe Hevesi and the MTA is probably going to have to offer a little more detailed explanation of their plans to get this one by the people down in Washington. Of course, Hevesi is going to be out of office in 85 days, so he can toss around any number that comes into his head...
Hell, I'll bid on the job if BMTman is game to come to work for me as a partner. :)
Assuming they are not talking about a complete rebuild to the entire IRT/IND/BMT/PATH connection under the World Trade Center site, the $3 billion estimate to fix between 4-5 blocks of subway tunnel and one subway station comes out to $2 million a foot. Toss in the work on the BMT at Cortlandt and the cost goes down to about $1 million a foot.
Federal disaster-relief assistance should not be used for a complete rebuild of the type you describe. Assistance of this sort, like insurance money, is meant to restore damaged property to its original condition, not to make it substantially better than it had been. Now, I'm certainly not saying that a totally revamped connection under the WTC site would be a bad idea, but only that it should be funded from sources other than disaster assistance.
I believe Hevesi and the MTA is probably going to have to offer a little more detailed explanation of their plans to get this one by the people down in Washington.
On the other hand, if even a fraction of the horror stories I've heard about FEMA's accountability standards (or the lack thereof) are true, Hevesi and company actually may be able to get their $2 million per foot.
So, maybe, just maybe the BMT/IND Connection at Cortland is still a faint whisper of a mere glimmer of a remote outside possiblity of a chance of an ice cube in HELL!
Barkeep, wine for my troops! We ride at Dawn!
avid
I have a feeling that the repairs needed are so extensive, they're including the costs of making the Rector and Cortlandt stations ADA compliant, and a few dozen other things. Don't forget, no one knows WHAT the hell it really looks like down there.
-Hank
I have a feeling that the repairs needed are so extensive, they're including the costs of making the Rector and Cortlandt stations ADA compliant, and a few dozen other things. Don't forget, no one knows WHAT the hell it really looks like down there.
I'm pretty sure that Cortlandt Street would have to be made ADA compliant because it'll be either replaced or completely rebuilt. From what I have heard, Rector had no actual damage, so whatever cleanup work will be needed probably wouldn't be enough to invoke an ADA requirement (though of course that should be done if at all possible).
Whatever the final cost is, someone -- Hevesi, the MTA, whoever -- needs to be able to spell out the exact reason why they came to that $3 billion figure, and the figures for several other projects, or a few months down the line, the rest of the country will be back to the attitude that New York politicians spend money like a drunken sailor.
The other downside to this is if it does cost $3 billion just to repair 1,500 to 3,000 feet of subway tunnel where the right-of-way is already in place, there's no way in hell the city is ever going to get the funding from the federal government for a Second Ave. subway, if a $1 million to $2 million a foot cost estimate becomes the standard quote from the city comptroller (the most recent Second Ave. subway cost estimate, at $1 billion a mile, comes out to about $190,000 a foot, and that's for a line where the ROW is only a place in a few selected spots).
Maybe Hevesi will be able to document the costs of reconstruction and justify the $3 billion price tag, but IMHO it sounds like either he or someone in his office is thinking, "Everyone feels sorry for New York right now so lets highball all the cost estimates by X percent and get as much money as we can." If that's the case, Hevesi is definitely a comptroller in the same mold as Abraham D. Beame, and that's not a compliment, because down the line the actual costs will come out and it's not going to make whoever's in charge of New York then look very good.
3 Billion Bucks to fix the subways and I haven't left a copper penny on the yard tracks to see what happens next. Peter
I doubt the $3 billion. We might have lost a couple of trains, however. And many NYC capital projects have been delayed, which costs money. The Rail Control Center, Automatic Train Supervision, and Public Address/Customer Info systems are particularly affected: their field offices were in the WTC, along with the main contractor's office (Siemans) in NYC. Everything there is gone. And, the fiber optic cable was supposed to run up from South Ferry loop.
There also may be an attempt to make some improvements. ADA compliance is one, and mandatory. Full train platforming (maybe a three track terminal) at South Ferry is another. I'd like to see a like to the Jorolemon -- one thing this has shown is the benefits of flexibility. On that score, why don't they ask the FEDs to build DeKalb-Rutgers; we sure could use it now.
Go the Dekalb-Rutgers one better - build a completely new tunnel under the East River connecting Brooklyn an Manhattan so that people can leave the cars at home and use mass transit. Full utilization of all tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Station would be really something, and the bellmouths north of the E terminal at Chambers St. could be the point of connection for the new line. the C local woud have its own connection into Manhattan from Brooklyn, and if a GO necessitated the closure of the Cranberry tunnels, the new tunnel would provide access without the need to take people out of their way to get to their destinations. How about it?
Full train platforming (maybe a three track terminal) at South Ferry is another. I'd like to see a like to the Jorolemon -- one thing this has shown is the benefits of flexibility.
A link between the West Side IRT into the Joralemon tube at SF makes perfect sense if only for the added flexibility.
It would be nice if a new SF station were built into the Joralemon tube approach; make it four track and this would effectively replace Bowling Green.
why don't they ask the FEDs to build DeKalb-Rutgers; we sure could use it now.
That would be nice, but wouldn't a link across Prospect Park to the Brighton, or south under Greenwood Cemetery into the West End be faster, cheaper, and less disruptive?
That would be nice, but wouldn't a link across Prospect Park to the Brighton, or south under Greenwood Cemetery into the West End be faster, cheaper, and less disruptive?
Let me get this right...
You want to dig up a cemetery? That's not gonna fly.
You want to tunnel across Prospect Park? That's not gonna fly either. (Although, I like the prospect park idea.)
(That would be nice, but wouldn't a link across Prospect Park to the Brighton, or south under Greenwood Cemetery into the West End be faster, cheaper, and less disruptive?)
It would be much longer, and could only serve one of the lines going through DeKalb. A branch off north of DeKalb could provide access to them all.
The confusion of the article is it mixes one time losses (buildings, subways to be replaced) with ongoing loses (devastation of the NYC tax base, lost wages), though perhaps it tries to capitalize them.
I'd say that to keep NYC and State afloat $5 billion total in direct subsidize will be required next year (to cover tax losses and higher social services spending). What happens next? It depends on the recovery, but should drop to zero after five or fewer years. That plus replacing capital losses should keep the City and State afloat.
Private losses are another matter. People have donated so much that (with insurance, social insurance, and other factors) those who lost loved ones could be set for life financially (if the money is distributed correctly). The non-financial losses of couse won't go away.
Indirect losers -- those who lose their jobs -- are an even bigger problem. The NY State Dept. of Labor says September employment figures are as of September 10. They are going to try to capture the results of the disaster in the October data.
Can we use Osama's "frozen assets" to help pay for the subway damage ?
You know......all 300 million dollars of it.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have always wondered how the ticket collection system works for conductors on MN/LIRR/NJT? Is there a secret code on those papers they stick in your seat after taking your ticket? Do they tell how many people are sitting in the seat? Where they are going? When a train makes a stop and a hundred people get on and a hundred get off, how do they know who was already on and who wasn't? It always was a mystery to me. It seems theres so much room for error. What about people in the bathroom when the guy comes? I guess they can just stay on for one stop and get a free ride, no?
Does anybody know the answer to these ever-so-important questions?
WS
When your transportation is lifted, a seat check is placed at your seat. The seat check is punch with your destination (one of the numbers on the seat check). Sometimes crews will tear the seat check to mean different things, sometimes they will punch it twice for one check for two people.
I've had my seat check stolen while I was not paying attention. I've also had someone sit down next to me in a triple seat and claim the seat check is his and that I just got on.
9 out of 10 times the if you tell the trainman that you already paid they let it go.
Yes people sneak on; it is not a perfect system.
You have to be careful.
Once, when my wife and I were travelling on NJT, we handed the conductor 2 tickets to PJT, and he only gave us one seat check. I figured he knew what he was doing until his colleague came by and asked one of us for a ticket. He let it go after I explained that we gave his buddy our tickets -- two of them -- but you never know when they will be sticklers. This time, their mistake almost screwed me.
I was travelling on the MNRR New Haven line late one weekday evening. I was very tired, and just about asleep, when a fellah got on the train and sat down for a minute or two waiting for the train to depart . Once it started moving, I watched him grab a seat check about two rows in front of me off a person who was sleeping. After seeing this bit of crime, I immediately grabbed my own seat-check to hold in my hand in case I fell asleep. A few minutes later, the conductor came by. Now, since this conductor wasn't born yesterday, he demanded a ticket from the guy, but the guy was adamant that his seat check was valid. The conductor spent a couple more minutes trying to get the guy to pay, but he wouldn't. Why didn't I speak up, you ask? Well, I was riding all the way to GCT, and who knew how dangerous this fellow was. It was late, and I'm not a huge guy myself. Thankfully, the conductor was there to attend to the situation. To make a long story short, we were delayed a bit at 125th St. while the cops arrested the guy.
The moral of the story is: Always keep an eye on your seat-check.
I had an amusing seat-check incident on the LIRR some months back. I had just gotten a Discman, and was listening to it at what was probably an unsafe volume. The conductor came by, I showed him my monthly ticket, and he put a seat check on the back of the seat in front of me. Somehow, the seat check disappeared soon after, whether it fell or was taken by someone I don't know, as I was reading the newspaper.
A few stops later, the conductor came back and (presumably, as I couldn't hear him over the music) asked for my ticket. I replied "I already showed it to you." The conductor looked really startled, reeling back away from me, and several other passengers turned to look.
Then it dawned on me. Being unused to music blasting in the earphones, I must have bellowed at the conductor instead of speaking at a normal volume. This realization made me laugh out loud, causing other riders to stare at me, which of course made me laugh all the harder. If I hadn't already been on the train at the Deer Park stop, the other riders would have thought I had just escaped from Pilgrim State.
Here is the NJT System:
From NY Penn- Newark passengers get no seat check.
Elizabeth is 2 (as is North Elizabeth),
Linden is 3, Rahway is 4, Metro park 5, Metuchen 6. Edison 7. New Brunswick and Jersey Ave 8, Princeton Jct is 9, Hamilton is torn in the top center and trenton is just punched West.
to NY Penn code is the same. If yuou get off at newark you get a torn in the top center seat check and NY Penn is unpunched.
For service to metro North points, the MTA block is also punched. Color varies by crwew member and day of the week wjhich can also be punched. The top center can be punched for multiple riders sharing a seat. If you change seats or go to the restroom take your seatcheck with you. If you stand and move- take it with you.
ForNorth Jersey Coast and other lines the system is similar. Some crew members will return the punched ticket isntead of a seat check. if you have to change trains your ticket will be returned.
Thwe punched ticket or seat check will be taken after leaving the station before yours.ie- NY Penn seatchecks will be collected afetr leaving Newark Penn.
Not that I'm looking for a way to beat the system, but is the color the only thing that differs from trip to trip? In theory, it seems like if you take the same route every day, you can just start collecting the seat checks. Then when you get on, notice what color is being used that day and stick yours in there. It just seems to me like there must be sooo many ways to get around this method.
Also, is there any way to tell for example, in 3 seater, in which 2 people gave tickets, and one person boarded later, who is the one who didn't pay? Or does the seat check system only tell you that there is one person out of 3 who didn't pay?
WS
Not that I'm looking for a way to beat the system, but is the color the only thing that differs from trip to trip? In theory, it seems like if you take the same route every day, you can just start collecting the seat checks. Then when you get on, notice what color is being used that day and stick yours in there. It just seems to me like there must be sooo many ways to get around this method.
On Metro North, the conductors use a variety of different dies on the seat-check punch, changing them regularly, maybe even daily.
I don't know if NJT and the LIRR do likewise.
On the MBTA (Boston area commuter rail), seat checks are used. But each conductor has his/her own method. Most don't punch; they just stick one in the seat as a reminder. While many colors are available, there is no "color of the day" and you can find a rainbow of seat checks in use. On the three seater side, if a conductor sees two checks and three people, he/she just stands there until someone produces a ticket/pass (of course, it's usually the person in the middle who got there last!).
Seat checks are only used inbound, since tickets are only checked when leaving the Boston terminal outbound. So few people board outbound at other stops, that the conductors can usually remember who they are. This means, of course, that one could use a "zone 2" pass outbound for a "zone 6" ride. But inbound, that would fail since the passes/tickets are checked after each station. As commuter rail passes are good for unlimited bus, subway, trackless trolley, and streetcar rides (i.e. no additional charge!), they're very popular.
Here are the types of monthly passes sold by the MBTA.
Here are the different zones.
Here is the commuter rail zone map.
NJT does have different dies and on the same train a different crew member may have a different color. Seart checks are collected by the crew member after leaving the station before your station. ie- NY Penn to New Brunswick. Your seat check will be taken after the train leaves Edison. Sure, sometimes they dont take the seat checks, but the next day the same crew member will use a different color.
A ps- sometimes more than one crew member takes tickets from the same car. You could happen to have the color used by person #1(the seat check color is the same color as is there by the person in the next seat) but another crew member(#2) comes by and they use a different color and they (#2) know that #1 went to another car and they (#2)did not take your ticket.
Just be honest and pay your fare! fare beating leads to higher fares for all of us and deprives the road of funds which could be used for new cars, station improvement, and maintenance.
Read http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=273195 and see how it is handles on the South Shore RR.
Spotted a R44 on the E this morning at about 930 in the 67 AVE station. The E train was just about all r-46 today so I didnt really pay attention that much. However when it was passing i noticed the painted over blue stripe and not the bear metal. I think one of the car numbers was 5207, but not positive.
#5207 would certainly make it an R-44. It has been many moons since an R44 has been seen on the "E", I believe it was 1977 or 1978 when the fleet went from Jamaica Yard to 207th Street.
Wonder what its ex number was (I have the list at home)
wayne
Wayne, you can read the conversions here. The answer is 137.
Chaohwa
Nice to know so many r/44 are un-GOHed. Were they considered too trashed to rebuild? Where are they now? Are they being used as organ donors?
I know I sometimes sound like a broken CD, but could these OUT of Service R/44s donate parts and systems to go to R/42s to create R/43s, not to be confused with R/143s, to make 660 ft long sets for use on the "E" and/or "F" trains betwixed Jamaica and Canal ST. or Church St. Terminals
I won't go away from this idea!
avid
Some non GOH'ed R-44 MU's were on the scrap tracks at SBK last year.
What's an R43?
I didn't know the R44 could share parts with the R42. Well, they are from arround the same period.
:-) Andrew (No engineer!)
I don't believe they can. The R44 was a radical change from previous 60' cars, and not just in it's length and appearance. The R44 is even mechanically incompatible with the lookalike R46.
EXATLY! Thats my point. Take this R/42 car body and use R/44 46 or 68s system compatible innerds. All this to allow 11 car and 9 car sets to utilize platforms to their fullest. WE've all seen the difference in couplers, heard about the different propulsion systems and the various electrical and control systems.
Take some redbird singles and salvage what usable systems can be used to convert r/38,40 and 42s to be at a point where nine and eleven car sets can be used on the IND "E"& "F" lines and the eastern and southern BMT "J"&"M" lines.
The same with out of service R/44s and R/42s. The astute student will note that the figmentary R/43 fits between the R/42 and R/44.
It would be a Hybird illegitamate basterd spauned from the combined parts of the R/44 systems and the R/42 platform ergo R/43. The r/42 has the nearest visually similar body to blend well with the R/44,46, and 68s.
avid
avid
An R-43 is a locomotive... making one out of two subway cars would be like taking apart a Lincoln Continental, putting it back together, and ending up with a Corvair :).
HEY...the Corvair was a damn good car...exceopt for that annoying habit of the rear wheels tucking up under themselves and causing the car to flip at high speed.
Too bad Tennesee Ford had to die in one.
Peace,
ANDEE
I had a Corvair - a 1964 MONZA, it leaked oil like a sieve and had no exhaust system; you could hear it a mile away - I called it "The Motorboat From Mars". It was good in the snow; it melted its way through snowbanks and had great traction cause the engine was in the rear. The day I junked it, three scrap dealers wanted it so I let them draw straws for it - the guy who got it wound up making a dune buggy out of it.
wayne
Yea....by 1964 they were decent machines.
Peace,
ANDEE
I bought it in December 1974 for the princely sum of Twenty-Five dollars. It didn't have one of its headlights and I got a ticket coming home from Manhattan (where I bought it). My mechanic refused to inspect it. I kept getting parking tickets in front of my house for uninspected; my Dad wouldn't let me park it in the driveway cause it leaked so much oil. It was a real junker that's for sure.
wayne
In their heyday, some people referred to them as "leakers" instead
of Corvairs. My mechanic buddy had a lot of laughs about that!
Chuck Greene
Their engines had bushings for the crankshaft instead of main bearings.
i owned a collection of them the oil did not leak.!! you have to replace the o rings on the tubes that hold the pushrods
also you should not torque the oil pan gasket too tight etc.. change the oil at least once a month use 40 wt oil.....
wash your engine remove the top engine cover wash all the dirt off of the finned cylinders etc... clean & replace the oil cooler !!
If you know all of the tricks they did not leak or throw off fanbelts !! The corvair was my first car & i loved them all !!
i also owned the grembrier window van which was my favorite of all & did you ever see the lakewood wagon ??
I also dug all of the pre -world war 2 rolling stock too !!!...............
HEY...the Corvair was a damn good car...exceopt for that annoying habit of the rear wheels tucking up under themselves and causing the car to flip at high speed.
Too bad Tennesee Ford had to die in one.
Ernie Kovacs the comedian, actually. You're probably confusing him with Tennessee Ernie Ford, who died of natural causes in old age.
Trivia point: both Kovacs and Ford made guest appearances on I Love Lucy.
You are right. I did mean Kovacs. Thanks for the correction.
Probably something to do with both of them being on I Love Lucy. The mind is turning to mush in old age. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Both had mustashes, and used Vitalis Hair Cream to Excess!
Was it Kovacs or Steve Allen, that jumped into the huge tank of
Jell-O?
avid
I think it was Kovacs that did the jello jump....more his style...Allen was toooo uptight to do this type of stunt....IYKWIM
Peace.
ANDEE
I wonder if the Vitalis had anything to do with Allen's classic breakup as Bill Allen. He mentioned that his hair "looked dumb" during that one particular show from the greasy kid stuff they used in those days and it made him laugh, and "it just went out of control totally after that."
I believe that was the skit as "Injun Joe -Sportscaster", where Steve Allen's classic laugh went bonkers. I still crack up when I see that tape , and Steve goes totally out of control, switching his hat, and trying to compose himself. Every attempt just resulted in even more uncontrolled laughter!!
Chuck Greene
i did not have that problem because i had even tires & inflatdthem proper !! ..................lol
what? we agree on something ?? ..all hell is brakin' loose ............lol!!
A number of unGOHed R-44s were simply scrapped. I don't know whether or not there are any more unGOHed R-44s.
#3 West End Jeff
Was there any good reason why these UN-GOH'ed cars were scrapped in the first place?
Well, let's see: #215 split a pillar, #288 crashed into a bumper block, #315 had a fire, so did #227, and the others I am not sure of but the reasons could have been mechanical (#109, #120, #385, #176 etc).
wayne
There were a fair number of R-44s that were scrapped and never went through the GOH program.
#3 West End Jeff
My heart just sunk to the floor.
avid
Why did Pitkin give over some R44's to Jamaica?
That is VERY odd, since with the "R" down, Jamaica has a surplus of 27 trains of 8 cars each. The "E"'s normal requirement is 21 or 22 trains.
When the E ran to Euclid, it got some Pitkin equipment. I guess when they jerked it back to Canal Street, some Pitkin equipment was trapped in Queens.
According to an associate on the Queens Blvd. corridor, there were no R-44s scheduled to run in E service. They were also not aware of any re-routes that might have caused this. I cannot verify the story until Monday but at this point, it appears that either a train was re-routed or it's a case of mistaken identity.
Or a school car.
I didn't even know R44s and R46s could run on the same consist. (Or did they?)
:-) Andrew
They can't.
You're right. And in fact collegeboy didn't say they did. Just that there was a train of R44s.
---Andrew
Yes you are right, I never mentioned that they were on the same consist. It was one E train of R-44's and I am positive that they were R-44's and not 46's. I was able to spot the smaller cab door as it passed.
I have seen R-46s on the "E" but this is the first time I've heard of a train of R-44s on the "E".
#3 West End Jeff
They were on the "E" starting in 1971 until around 1977 or 1981.
Well, the R-44s have been sighted on the "E" once again. I'll stay tuned to find out more.
#3 West End Jeff
It would be better to know if any physical differences (other than painted over blue stripe) were spotted between the R44 E and the R46 trains.
Oo. I wish I was on one...
Railfan Pete.
There are a number of other physical differences between the R-44 and R-46.
The R-44 has glass panels on either side of each of the doorways; the R-46 used to, but they were removed in GOH.
The R-44 cab door is narrow and is on hinges; the R-46 cab door is wide and slides. (The R-44 cab itself is also smaller, but the average passenger can't tell.)
I think the faux wood paneling is used differently on the two car types.
There are probably other distinctions.
There are probably other distinctions.
I know one. Air pressures in the cab are different. Thus resulting in the different sounds of the air releases usually when R44/46's leave the station. The sound on the R44's sound like air coming out of a certain tight balloon, while the R46's have a nice, steady flow of air.
Also, R46's electric motors seem to "Rev-up" much faster than that of R44's which have a steady rise.
Railfan Pete.
R44 on the E.This was bound to happe sooner or later.
Just got my Sept/Oct issue of the trade "Metro", won't be their best issue of the year, BUT on page 92 is a very nice shot of #205 newly arrived in NYC. The article talks about APMs & states that NY will 6th with a driverless train after Copenhahen (12 mi); Singapore (12 mi); Greece (6 mi); Turin (6 mi) & Vancouver (12 mi).
Mr t
And the Metro magazine screwed up their annual survey again. Dallas, San Antonio, El Paso and others reported to have "TrolleyBuses". It does not match their description of what a trolleybus is. Plus NYCBus reported to have lost 536 buses from last year. Somebody did not count the paratransit vans this year.
Thurston, APM=Automated People Mover?
When is the JFK airtrain supposed to be built as to connect with the A line at Howard Beach? Is the train station going to be closed down for a few weeks so make the connection? How are people going to transfer between the train and the shuttle bus if the station is closed?
Since I'm 300 miles to the south, I checked the web site to check on the alinement. The Airtrain rails and the NYCTransit rails don't even touch each other. Transfer between NYCTransit and Airtrain is a bag-drag affair.
While the rails don't touch, the pedestrian parts of the station are going to be rebuilt, IIRC, to minimize the bag dragging.
Any idea when they're supposed to start building and finishing it?
Unofficially the work is ahead of schedule. Next year it will start running between terminals at JFK and later to longterm parking and last to Jamaica by late 2003 early 2004. I would not be surprised if the whole thing was done earlier. Some of this may depend on the pace of the terminal they are building for it in Jamaica as part of a new ADA compliant LIRR complex.
Most of the ROW is up all the way to Jamaica.
Mr t
All the way to Jamaica station and work is being built for a connection for custoners to connect with the LIRR and the subway. But I'm more wondering about the same kind of connection for customers to connect with the A train at Howard Beach with the Airtrain.
The Airtrain does not connect with the A.
What?? Do you think the Port Authority was going to allow a direct connection to the MTA?
How are they going to prevent it? The Airtrain platform and the A train platform are closer together than some of the platform combinations at Penn Station. It's never stopped people from changing trains there.
I think he means there is no track connection.
I wasn't refering to a track connection. I was more interested in an easy connection for customers to go from the subway to/from the airtrain. When will that start being built?
The Air Train station is there. Didn't get off the A to see the specifics. Suspect a esclator connection.
Mr t
The Air Train comes in over the A ... on a recent "Field Trip" to Long Beach we saw it first hand.
Mr t
Listen guys! Did you ever see a street fight. It's really ugly and not much fun to watch because it has no point. Take the same two guys, train them, put them in a boxing ring and you can enjoy the bout. You guys are likely really nice guys in real life but you are train-buffs and this is turning into a really ugly street fight. You both should try to leaarn a lot more about the subject before you try to put on an entertaining fight. I'll bet you can learn more from each other than by all this sparring.
Now look what you've gone and made me do. I won't be able to show my face at work Monday....
But you are off with the rest of us on Columbus day, or did you forget?
avid
As a matter of fact, Monday is a full service day so I'll be at my desk before 6 AM.
6 AM? Oh please. That's sleeping in.
J and Luch: Shame on you two. Did you see what you made Train Dude do. He had to become a kinder and gentler person, and that is completely out of character for the straight shooter. Now damn it, cut that feud out. Take a page from Brighton Express Bob and me. We love blistering one another but it is all in good fun and we are best of buddies. OK Dude, you too. J and Luch have been given the word by me and you can now go back to being the real Train Dude, and not the one I just read. Feel better now?
For a sec, I thought TD was going el-softo.
TD, please stay away from those "Carpenters" albums. They make you a little mushy.
On Thursday Oct. 4, 2001, I timed alternate routes between Christopher Street and Exchange Place. Counting from when the PATH train left Christopher Street, walking to Newport HBLR, waiting for a streetcar, and a slow ride to Exchange Place: 25 minutes. Towards the big town, counting from beginning a hike from Exchange Place to Grove Street (with hundreds of office workers), waiting for a 33rd Street train; we glided through Christopher St. 31 minutes from Exchange Place. I'm really surprised that the HBLR option won, but I guess the shorter distance does win.
Hudson-Bergen was operating several sets of coupled cars, even one to West Side Avenue. Signs indicate that the PATH Quickcard is valid between Newport & Exchange (but PATH turnstiles swallow the last use of a Quickcard).
The parking lot at the Liberty State Park station was full at 3:30 p.m. At E. 34 Street, the pedestrian bridge over the "CNJ" to a bus loop and parking lot is open.
>>(but PATH turnstiles swallow the last use of a Quickcard). <<
One would think that if you are a regular user of PATH knowing that the card is going to be "captured" on the last use you would have another QuickCard with you.
What stations of the Light Rail connects to the Path?
Exchange Place provided the closest connection between HBLR and PATH. Now the PATH station there is out of service. The walk from the PATH platform at Pavonia up to the HBLR platform at Newport is six or seven minutes. Thanks to the thick-headed politicians of Hoboken, the HBLT will arrive at Hoboken at the south end of the concourse, not adjacent to PATH.
It will still be a shorter walk at Hoboken than at Newport.
From a fairly reliable source, the R-143s will be IN SERVICE on October 15th.
Wow! I hope it's true. I'll be sure to ride one as soon as I can.
:-) Andrew
I don't know whether to cheer, or cringe.
On the L?
Seth
What lines will the R-143's be assigned to? SethLJ mentions the "L". Who else?
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
The L will get the lions share of 143's with the M getting a few as well.
I heard the L will be all R143. The surplus will go to the M for OPTO at night.
Still miss the R1/9's.
And I'm sure they miss you too!
From a HIGHLY Reliable source, they will be back out of service :-)
Does this begin the anticipated 30 day test where if the slightest thing goes wrong while the cars are on the road, the clock is reset?
Correct...whether it starts on October 15 or another date, this is the 30-day in-service test.
David
Will this free up some equipment for the expansion of M and J service during the emergency.
Will this free up some equipment for the expansion of M and J service during the emergency?
I don't think so, only one train will go into service for the test. -Nick
Sweet...I'll be in NYC on 10/15 (leaving 10/16) if the Yankees-Oakland Series goes to a fifth and final game....this timing would be great!! -Nick
Is this program worth buying? Does it have major bugs?
Any input is appreciated.
I had it now for 3 months. No problems for me so far. Very nice I must say. Worth the money. If your system exceeds the minium requirments then you should be fine.
Catch it on sale. Purchased mine at CompUSA when it first came out @ $29.95. It was never that low again.
I understand new lines/equipments have been added recently. Also several subtalkers are working on some subway versions.
I just got mine used for $15 plus postage via private transaction. Should be arriving any day now.
"I understand new lines/equipments have been added recently."
Are you referring to fan add-ons? I'm looking forward to NYC Subway routes. In the meantime I'd recommend BVE. It's free! They have some NYC Subway routes. The #7 by Ernie Alston is probably the best so far.
Are you referring to fan add-ons? I'm looking forward to NYC Subway routes. In the meantime I'd recommend BVE. It's free! They have some NYC Subway routes. The #7 by Ernie Alston is probably the best so far.
Ernie did a good job on the 7 train. His is the best of all the NYC subway routes, and the only one with C/R announcements at all the stations. Have you downloaded any of the other (not NYC) subway routes? I have the London, Glasgow, and Vienna subway lines, they are all very good. I also got the Fukoka subway, but I can't get it to work.
David
No, I haven't downloaded any of the non NYC subway routes. I'm pretty much fixated on NY but if you've got a good recommendation for some of these other routes I'd probably check them out. Any of them as good as, or better than Ernie's?
On the BVE circuit, I'm told there's a REALLY NEAT Sea Beach route but alas, it's hosted on a "communities.msn" site and I *refuse* to be branded by an MSN "passport" ... sure would love to see it for download on www.crotrainz.com or somewhere else where you don't have to smooch Bill Gates' butt to get to the page. But if them's the conditions, have to do without the Sea Beach ...
Ernie's Flushing line is exquisite, as is the "G line" ... and though it contains a few route graphics errors, the R to Queens isn't bad either. And none of these requires a Microsoft passport.
How you doing my man? Where do I get the G line I can't seem to find it can you link me please?
Yo, and Moohaki!
The toy you're looking for is here:
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/routes/NYCT-G/index.html
Damn thing ends at Court Square too. Just like (sniff!) the "real thang" ... watch the closing doors.
haha thanks a lot man, but you should really out aside your Gates Grudge, and get ahold of a working copy of MSTS, you'd really enjoy it
You're most welcome. I take it you missed my continuing saga here on subtalk when it was released about "MSTrainWreck(tm)" having gone through over 20 sets of CDROMs before I found one set that was pressed correctly and loaded without error, only to find that it would not run at all with only 64 megs and a non 3D graphics video card. While my system met or exceeded the "recommended" it never went in and wasted over 30 hours of my time that could have been spent earning a living.
As far as I'm concerned, I hope they have a couple of pieces of ordnance left over after we flatten Osama Bin Shaved so we can drop a few of them on Redmond. Once this is done, programmers will come out of the woodwork, freed of the oppression of Gates and Ballmer, and will create an operating system that will actually WORK. :)
Interesting, no as a matter of fact I remember your ordeal with the defective copies, thats why I said you should get a "working" copy. But yea maybe if they bomb redmond the software prices might go down, I may even avoid purchasing a bootleg working copy of MS office 2002XP for $5 on broadway and canal.
Heh. Well, I finally DID get a "working copy" but once it ate up the hard disk and memory, it was STILL broken. Unless you have a VERY SHINY new box, ain't no trains gonna run on it. Since my computer is here at work, they're NOT gonna buy me a 3D superduper graphics card with 3D audio, gamepad and the whole nine yards. What gets me is I've got several train sims which all work just fine. MSTS was the only thing I've ever installed that blew such large chunks. What gets me is Kuju's (sp?) train sim (which Microsoft stole) works JUST FINE though it requires that you run it on Japanese Windows (won't run at all in English), so clearly MS screwed it up.
Considering that I like Mechanik to begin with, BVE is just the *teats* as far as I'm concerned and has several real NYTCA subway lines. I tire of the Acela. :)
In msts I'm working on the following routes:
culver shuttle 60 % complete
Brighton line from still well to 34 st( before 9/11/01)Might include the coney island yard. Also AI train for B,N,F one one activitiy, w,n,f on another activity, and M,W,Q on another act.
Flushing line 40 % complete.
reskin the series 2000 car as nyc subway cars.
Current fleet:Train /test in msts/ download / comments
R68 D compeleted not avail working on the detail of the skin
R40 Q compeleted not avail
R143 L completed not avail
R134 not in serv didn’t test not avail
R44/r46 F compeleted not avail
R42 J didn’t test not avail
R42 K didn’t test not avail
R42 L didn’t test not avail
R42 M didn’t test not avail
R42 Z didn’t test not avail
R42 not in service didn’t test not avail
Past Fleet
R44/r46 bluest F compeleted not avail
R42blue strip D didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip E didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip F didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip J didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip KK didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip LL didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip RR didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip QB didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip QJ didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip M didn’t test not avail
R42blue strip not in serv didn’t test not avail
Future routes:
Franklin line
west end line
and other routes.
here's some pics of the routes and subway cars i'm working on.
culver shuttle route
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/culverroutepics.msnw
nyc subway objects for msts
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/mynycsubwayobjectspics.msnw
nyc subway cars for msts
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/mstsnycsubwaycarspics.msnw
flushing route
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/flushingroutepics.msnw
Future Routes:
Franklin line
west end and other lines
hers's my site to get subway skins and routes(not avail now)
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/main.html
thank you good to know, I cant wait to have NYCT routes for MSTS
What is BVE's. I thought that they were of MS Train Sim but they are not. I also tryed to download things that say they are for MS Train Sim but I can't figure out how to install that.
Robert
MS Train Simulator is a lot of fun … provided that your system has the horsepower to run it. Read the minimum hardware requirements carefully, and check with someone who is knowledgeable about PCs if you’re not sure. If your system just barely meets the requirements, Train Simulator will run choppy, and you’ll have to tweak the settings to get it to run satisfactorily.
If your system can run the program, though, I highly recommend it.
Hope this helps.
Jim D.
Does it eat up a lot of memory?
<< Does it eat up a lot of memory? >>
Sadly, yes … Train Simulator is a HUGE memory hog. I had to limit my installation to the Northeast Corridor and Marias Pass routes, because my 8 GB hard drive already had numerous other programs loaded on it. As a result, I plan to soon upgrade to a bigger hard drive.
Jim D.
BART (San Francisco) is currently looking for T/O's. The pay is actually better than the pay for NYCTA T/O's (by about 40 cents an hour).
Click on the link at www.bart.gov
On the same page, you will see info on October "BART Career Expos". Click on that link for more info.
BART had better be paying higher salaries -- even with the dot.com collapses, real estate in the Bay Area is still way higher than even the New York metropolitian area.
My cousin's house in Marin County, which would go for about $200,000 in Queens or S.I. has dropped from about $700,000 in valuation to somewhere in the low $600,000s lately. The price still sounds great, but if you sell, you'll have to move about 50 miles further out to buy another home at the same price or move into a condo with less space. Anyone taking a BART job would face the same problem, though at least the commute to work would be partially free...
You didn't mention that it's for part-time Operators.
Oops.
Well it does lead to full-time positions.
It's more like a "Conductor sitting in the front" position. Not much operating going on. Occasional horn-honking and OPEN button pushing necessary.
Yup...doesn't make for enjoyable railfanning...
Vote for the Best Subway System, be honest
A) New York City Subway System
B) London Underground
C) Russias Subway System
D) Bay Area Rapid Trasit
E) Los Angeles Subway
F) Tokyo Subway System
Think hard and be honest
G)Dayton MVRTA
The Dayton Metro has my vote!
Mark
The dayton metro is a real big LOL !!! & the "subway map " just knocks me out big time !!! .........LOL !!
www.mvra.org: The Onion of transit websites!
-- David
Chicago, IL
We've had this thread on SubTalk a few times before, and the favorites and definitions of "best" are as varied as the people who post here.
Here's a few of my choices:
Best architectural design: Washington Metro (overall), London Underground (Jubilee Line extension).
Most extensive coverage throughout the city: New York
Best variety of stations and types of rolling stock: Boston
Most valiant effort at trying to re-invent the wheel: BART
Most scenic transit system: Chicago
Coolest escalators: London Underground
Least crowded subway: Cincinnati (Cincinnati's subway, unfortunately, also has the longest headways: 70+ years at last count.)
Shortest headways: New York and London (tie)
Most impressive transfer station: Five Points station on MARTA.
Most impressive use of exposed rock: Peachtree Center on MARTA.
Best subway access to city's airports: Chicago
Best use of a single letter of the alphabet: The Chicago "L" (close second: Boston's T).
Best use of a transit logo as a pop culture icon: London Underground
Best system for those who want to ride trains forever: London's Cirlce Line (second place: Detroit People Mover)
Best system for sheer complexity: New York
Best system for sheer simplicity: Balitmore Metro
Best fare control system: New York and Chicago (tie - both are identical)
Best after-hours operations: New York (distant runner-up: Chicago)
Coolest-sounding subway cars (very subjective): Bombardier 01800's on the MBTA Red Line
Best system for those who really hate air brakes: Chicago
System with the most unfulfilled potential: New York's IND
Enjoy, and feel free to add more categories (the more weird and offbeat, the better).
-- David
Chicago, IL
How about the complex that Rupe Goldberg would be most proud of: Broadway Junction/Eastern Parkway on the BMT.
David, it's a shame you have not been to Paris. I think you will find it an architectural treat. Perhaps a field trip next year ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Paris is very high on my list of cities to visit. I'm also lusting over the prospect of riding the TGV system. I'm already developing an itch to get back to London... Maybe I'll finally be able to take the Eurostar over to Paris for a couple days. Tried last time, but the plans didn't work out at the time.
[*sigh*] Maybe someday...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Cleanest Singapore Best Rush Hour Service Hong Kong 90 minute headways, speed Hong Kong. Central to Airport Exp 3 stops 25 minutes 22 miles. Local 33 minutes
>>>>>>>>Best Rush Hour Service Hong Kong 90 minute headways
Aw cmon. The bus system in Martha's Vineyard has more frequent service. Mind you that their rush hour ends at 3 pm.
90 second, and trains are full
>>>>>>>>Best system for those who want to ride trains forever: London's Circle Line
You typed it wrong. It should've read:
Train ride that feels like it's lasted forever--Circle Line
And howwwwww could you possibly have left out the London Underground subway cars for "coolest sounding". The AC motors whirring on the Jubilee Line and the pinion gears of the Piccadilly Line have got my vote.
And howwwwww could you possibly have left out the London Underground subway cars for "coolest sounding". The AC motors whirring on the Jubilee Line and the pinion gears of the Piccadilly Line have got my vote.
As I said, it's a very subjective thing. The sound of those Jubilee Line trains has remained in my head since March, and it was a struggle to pick between that and the MBTA 01800's as my favorite. I guess what swung me in favor of the 01800's was that the AC traction sound is much more subtle, and unlike the Jubilee Line trains, the 01800's are nice and big.
I agree that the Jubilee Line trains make a very cool sound, though... You should have seen the huge grin that spread across my face when I boarded the Jubilee Line for the first time, the doors closed, and the train's motors revved up as we departed Westminster. No telling what the other passengers thought was on my mind!
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>>>>>and unlike the Jubilee Line trains, the 01800's are nice and big.
London is NOT the place for big trains, that's for sure.
>>>>>>>>You should have seen the huge grin that spread across my face when I boarded the Jubilee Line for the first time, the doors closed, and the train's motors revved up as we departed Westminster. No telling what the other passengers thought was on my mind!
I know exactly what you mean!
So how many seconds did it take for the seats on either side to rapidly vacate?
Best system for those who want to ride trains forever: London's Cirlce Line (second place: Detroit People Mover)
Doesn't Tokyo also have a circular line?
Possibly, but I've never ridden on it. (In fairness, I've never ridden BART or DC Metro either, but I've done a bit of research about both.) IIRC, the Moscow Metro also has a circular line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Try the Bart for speed, especially thru the Tube under the bay. Over 70mph
And it's sooooo loud. I was getting a headache when I rode thru there.
Yes and so does Berlin, and I think Munich has a cricle line also
System most likely to look exactly the same 100 years from now: Philadelphia
System most likely to be left out of "most likely to lists": Philadelphia
LOL!
I have a special place in my heart for Philly (I may even end up living there for a while to finish school), and believe it or not, I tried to think of a single superlative about SEPTA that I could include in my list, but to no avail.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That neither surprises nor offends me:)
OK, how about this? 55 mph express trains.
Eat your heart out New York.
Good point, but the best you'll be able to do on that one is a tie with Chicago. Our express trains -- as well as our locals, for that matter -- also routinely go 55 MPH between stops. And while BART doesn't have express trains per se, ther trains go 70+ MPH and I suspect their "local" stops are typically further apart than the express stops in NYC or Philly.
Okay, here's a couple:
Best integrations of light rail and heavy rail subways: Market-Frankfort and Subway-Surface lines in the vincinity of 30th Street Station.
Best effort at making marker lights understandable to the general public: Broad Street Subway
Subway train that best resembles something from one of Tim Burton's Batman movies: Philly's Broad Street Subway (runner-up: M4's on the MFL)
-- David
Chicago, IL
>> Best integrations of light rail and heavy rail subways:
Market-Frankford and Subway-Surface lines in the
vincinity of 30th Street Station<<
Runner up, the VART Civic Center Station as originally designed--stairs directly from thr lower BART level to the middle (now) MUNI Metro light rail level.--Just remove the stainless steel caging.
the saddest thing about 30th st Philly is the demise of he direct platform connection tunnel from the PRR NY-Was line to the PTC (SEPTA) fare control area.
My favorite piece of trackwork however is the W 4th St and monster junction immediately south. Stunning.
>> Best integrations of light rail and heavy rail subways:
Market-Frankford and Subway-Surface lines in the
vincinity of 30th Street Station<<
Runner up, the BART Civic Center Station as originally designed--stairs directly from thr lower BART level to the middle (now) MUNI Metro light rail level.--Just remove the stainless steel caging.
the saddest thing about 30th st Philly is the demise of he direct platform connection tunnel from the PRR NY-Was line to the PTC (SEPTA) fare control area.
My favorite piece of trackwork however is the W 4th St and monster junction immediately south. Stunning.
I know what a feeling at W4 to have trains not only below you but above you at the same time!
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I want to add a category. For best single station I vote for the Peachtree Center station on the Atlanta MARTA orange line. The station is a huge cave carved out of bare rock. It is truly beautiful.
Also, I disagree with your choice for "System with the most unfulfilled potential." I'm going to vote for Philadelphia's SEPTA. So much city, so few lines.
Mark
heh, I live in atlanta and my marta ride is lindbergh - peachtree center every day... the station is nice, is so deep and they (stupidly) built the escalator as one full-length so walking up it is a trek.
i wish they would bring some r-68's down here... the marta trains are so ugly and slow...
how come marta never built an express track or at least a 3rd track?
Allen
Have you ridden the new MARTA cars? They're way better than the old ones with the 70's orange and creme interior and smelly carpet.
They don't have a third track because there really isn't enough capacity to justify having one. The current setup can handle several times more people than it does.
I ride MARTA every now and then when I'm in Atlanta, and I was wondering about something. Since we had a thread about fantasy lines in Philadelphia recently, I'd like to hear from the MARTA riders about where they would build new lines if they had billions of dollars and no red tape.
Mark
I would first add trackage to make all existing lines express from the end points, 5 Points, and Lindburgh Center. I would then add a line conntecting to the Doraville station running up the 285 loop thru Dinwoody to Hightower.
A line covering the top half of the perimeter is a must. I'd then extend the North and Northeast lines into the 'burbs. Provisions already exist at three points. I'd use them to create a line branching off the East line that goes into southeast Atlanta (let's call it the South Dekalb line), then a new Northwest branch off the North line into the Cumberland area and intersecting the Perimeter line, then another branch south of East Point into the planned east terminal of Hartsfield and on to the South 'burbs. A new trunk line west the the North-South line that would come off the Northwest line, intersecting at Omni/Dome, then turn east and intersect West End, then meet up with the new South Dekalb line.
I bet that sounds confusing.
I ride marta almost every day and here are my thoughts:
• add an express track to make an express doraville, lindbergh, peachtree ctr, 5pts, airport
• add a line up into cobb county (dont worry we will carry stun guns for the "bad" people that the marta thinks is in cobb)
• add more bus service
• add better trains, get rid of the auto announcements
• bring down some train cars from nyc for us ny'ers
• AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, GET US THE NY YANKEES, THE BRAVES SUCK ASS!
I think MARTA's main mistake was not initially designing the N/S and E/W stations with at least one express track in mind. If they ever decide to lay express tracks, and eventually they will have to as lines grow, they will have to do some major redesigning of the existing stations. Had they designed at least room for a center express track adding one would be much easier.
i totally agree with you... they just opened sandy springs and north springs and again did not built for the future..
well the more i deal with the city, the more i see that ny is so far ahead its sad...
here to drive my car i have to pay a yearly ad valorem tax which on my 2000 jetta is 300 a year... ny my registration was 80/2yrs...
someone must be getting rich
It's funny how 3,000 NYers like yourself move to Atlanta every year, why is that?
The design of MARTA does not warrant a need for express tracks. Where the NY subway stops every few blocks or so(ie. 14th st and 19th street, W. IRT local), MARTA is more of a commuter line with several miles between stations (especially the stretch b/t buckhead and dunwoody.) It would be a waste of money. MARTA should spend it's money on buying more trains and building extensions. The only express run I could ever see being implemented would be a train to the plane from maybe five points but that still would only be a concession to those suburban dwellers who didn't want to ride with the "riff-raff" to Hartsfield.
Nappy
My grandparents moved to Atlanta from the bronx (NYC), and i visited Atlanta many times during the summer months (i Live in the Baychester section of Bronx, Ny). Marta has alot of potential, as far as expending and adding to existing lines, it all has to do with politics and race in reasons for them not being built as I and many others think they should be....... I would extend the North East line past Doraville along I- 285 goin east, onto I 85 north into gwinnett county, with stations on jimmy carter and as far north as hwy 316 with a park and ride for commuters heading from Lawrenceville and Duluth (that extention is much needed considering the back ups on 85 north of the perimeter). Extend the East line to serve Stone Mountain, and possibly Lithonia and other west suburbs along I 20 eastward. Extend the west line just outside I 285. Extend the North line into Alpheretta. Extend the bankhead spur to perry homes. Branch line from east point to hapeville and future planned east terminal at hartsfield airport. Spur line from East line into south east dekalb county..possibly the South East line where the busway was planned. North East line along 75 north into Cobb County. short spur line spun off of the North Druid hills line plan. Of course these lines will never be built....people are so scared if they have a train running from the city center to their back yard it will bring crime and people of lower class to the suburbs, which in my opinion is racism.....they don't have to build the tracks directly in a neighborhood, they can build them near the expressways with park and rides for commuters to drive or take the bus to like the LIRR or metro north.... oh well
Strictly from an operational point of view, I would say the Sao Paulo Metro. The system has a mere 30 miles of route, yet it easily handles half a billion riders a year. The system is automated, headways are at 100 seconds, the stations are clean and safe, and the system is very fast. The stations have a unique way of dealing with large crowds, with seprate boarding and alighting platforms. Be sure to look out for a new section on nycsubway.org about the SP Metro. I wrote up an overview and took some pictures. Should be up by next week.
From a railfan point of view, here's my list of the ones I've ridden, best to least best:
1. London (the original is still the best)
2. NYC (noisy, dirty, gritty, I love it)
3. Sao Paulo
4. San Fran - MUNI
5. Montreal
6. Boston
7. Atlanta
8. Toronto
9. DC
10. San Fran - BART
11. St. Louis
12. Miami
NO 2 ways about the ""dayton metro"" subway system is # 1 ONE ........hands down ........lol !!
& all of ther subway cars have { RAILFAN WINDOWS } !!!!..............yea !!!!!!
1.New York City Subway:Exellent express runs,alot of history and Some of the most unique subway cars there is(Also city loyalty)
2.Miami Subway system:An easy to remember system(It only has 2 lines) and alot of suburban views.
3.Long Island Railroad & Metro North:Even though these two aren't subway systems I enjo alot of the senery(I like to travel).
A) New York City Subway System
B) London Underground
C) Russias Subway System
Is this the subway that runs from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok? What's the fare? How much did it cost to tunnel under the tundra in Sibera?
D) Bay Area Rapid Trasit
E) Los Angeles Subway
F) Tokyo Subway System
G) The Sunway (fake)
You have not ridden the LA Red Line, have you?
You have not ridden the LA Red Line, have you?
No, the Sunway is the only fake subway I've been on.
Then you don t know what you are talking about
[Is this the subway that runs from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok? What's the fare? How much did it cost to tunnel under the tundra in Sibera? ]
No it runs from Kaliningrad to Vladivostok, there's no stops in Lithuania and Belarus, like W Berlin subway used to be.
Arti
...you mean you really have to ask?
NYC.
if you got a rail fan window then you ahve the best subway / rail system !! ....lol !!
A of course!!!!!
G) ... NYS Capitol Subway - running for over 100 years and *NEVER* had a delay. :)
Sewers don't count Sel.
Unless it's an "electric sewer" like the TA has.
Heh. Actually, the "Capitol subway" is a long underground walkway between the capitol and the Alfred E Smith Office building which runs under Capitol park. Keeps our porcine anointed from frizzing their butts off in the winter. Up here, summer lasts about four weeks. :)
But there in the hallway of the capitol on the ground floor is one of those arty-deco signs that says SUBWAY over the doors that lead to it. I was jazzed when I first saw it ... until I found out there weren't any trains to steal. Heh.
Best subway system in the world? Are you guys out there kidding? Come on, it's New York's. Good God, do you think that other subway systems have a bunch of lunatic fanatics extolling the virtues of their systems? You hear not a peep from them. And let me tell you something else. You will find no Train Dudes, Q's, Trainloco's, Brighton Express Bobs or Sea Beach Freds on any of those sites, or even a reasonable facsimile. Of course, not having any of the last guy m entioned might actually be an asset instead of a debit.
Of course, not having any of the last guy m entioned might actually be an asset instead of a debit.
That would probably depend on who was making up the balance sheet!
That does it, Unca Fred ... it's REHAB for your arse. The Albany subway has no tracks, no trains and more pander bears than you can shake any part of an elephant at. Now we *know* you've been smoking that stuff from south of the border. :)
Hell, around here even your toonerville trolley would be an improvement. This is a northbound D train, next stop Neck Road, watch the closing doors. Heh.
Hey Kev, did you ever get the urge to shout out the next stop while perched on the step plates of a prewar D train?
Nope ... wasn't part of the job. But when I got a 32 as a conductor, it was an instant radio show. I had SO much fun with the announcements, they put me back on the R1/9's ... imagine me in one of my ballbusting moods here, then give me a church key and a PTT button. Ayup ... back to the R9's. :)
Up here, summer lasts about four weeks. :)
From your posts I get the impression that you are somewhere in the Albany area. Then you make a statement like this and I think you must be in Rouses Point.
Just how cold is it? :-)
Well, according to the naval observatory (wait, unbuttoning shirt) ...
NYZ038>040-047-048-051-058-063-090835-
FULTON-MONTGOMERY-SCHOHARIE-SOUTHERN HERKIMER-WESTERN ALBANY-
WESTERN GREENE-WESTERN SCHENECTADY-WESTERN ULSTER-
545 PM EDT MON OCT 8 2001
FREEZE WARNING TONIGHT
TONIGHT
MOSTLY CLEAR AND COLD. LOWS IN THE MID 20S.
WIND BECOMING LIGHT AND VARIABLE.
TUESDAY
MOSTLY SUNNY AND WARMER. HIGHS IN THE MID AND UPPER 50S.
SOUTH WIND 5 TO 15 MPH.
Does that sorta do it for ya? :)
At 8:45 PM the temperature here is 38 degrees and falling. Our forecast here is almost the same thing, and I would guess we must be about 300 miles southwest of your 10/20.
Honest Kev, we get a hell of a lot more than four weeks of summer here!
SSShhhhhhhhhhh! Gotta keep up appearances for dem english down in de city. They think that anything north of Yonkers is CANADA ya know. :)
But yeah, your forecast is my forecast and it's going to be snuggly weather tonight. Having grown up in da Bronx, the coldest morning I remember vividly, it was +9 degrees and we was sheeting a peekle. Up here, +9 is a daytime HIGH. Heh.
Could you just IMAGINE folks in the city dealing with -32F? Heh. But you know how it is then - the four seasons - winter, almost winter, still winter and "construction season." :)
Kevin, just an inocuous question. If the weather is so crappy where you are why do you live there? I mean there are many places where the weather is much more pleasant-----like the North Pole. Come on, there is something up there that keeps you in that area. Maybe you are just sandbagging the rest of us. It's not that bad, is it?
Heh. It ain't that bad at ALL ... sure it's cold over the winter here. Sure we need to pay $500 every now and then to bring in a front loader that's taller than the damned house to clear the 3/4 mile private road up here.
I'll let you in on a secret. I *hate* heat and humidity. The summers here (for 3 days at a clip maybe 3 times a year, it gets as ugly as the Bronx in August here) are very nice, even if they're short. I LOVE the snow, I LOVE the solace and peace of living in the sticks, far removed from noise, pollution and nonsense. I LOVE the bunnies on the lawn, the wild turkeys and keeping a genuine "meadow" instead of a suburban lawn ... but most of all, I love the QUIET here.
I've travelled all over the world and frankly, there's no place in the world like upstate New York. Can't imagine living anywhere else. Our local government doesn't even RECOGNIZE the "national parties" and it's a place where no one cares what your religion, your politics, whatever. You can DIE up here in the winter and that causes folks to realize what's REALLY important - the pleasure of each other's company, we're all in this together, and we really genuinely NEED each other - I'll watch your back, you watch mine. And if you need some help, I'm here for you knowing you'll be here for me.
In other words, terrorists don't stand a CHANCE up here. Everyone KNOWS each other and if anyone needs a hand, we KNOW everyone else will be there when we need them. Tell me how many other places on this planet you get that? And the price of admission? You come running when needed to. Pretty decent price I think.
What we have up here in upstate NEW YORK is just what folks in DOWNSTATE NOO YAWK need to. Never has the importance of watching each other's back and being civil, ensured that everyone is in this boat together been so important. For once, we are ALL ONE!
If we really adopt this message among ourselves and others of like mind, then terrorists will go CRAZY ... for they will not be able to shake us anymore if we're ALL each other's keeper. You really FEEL that in places like where I live. Why would I want warm beaches when I have warm souls? Why would I want success when I already have it in the midst of good people who have soul?
I have my riches ... among my fellow hominids. :)
Kevin: Seems to me you really have the best of everything. If what you said was true, then it stands to reason that there are gazillions of people who would readily change places with you. Have a great day.
YOU KNOW YOU'RE FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK WHEN...
You only own three spices - salt, pepper and ketchup
You design your Halloween costumes to fit over a snowsuit
When the mosquitoes have landing lights
When you have more miles on your snowblower than your car
You have 10 favorite recipes for venison
TrueValue Hardware on any Saturday is busier than the toy stores at Christmas
You live in a house that has no front steps, yet the door is one yard above the ground
You've taken your kids trick-or-treating in a blizzard
Driving is better in the winter because the potholes get filled with snow
You think everyone from the city has an accent
You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie with only 8 buttons
You owe more money on your snowmobile than your car
The local paper covers national and international headlines on l/4 page, but requires 6 pages for sports
At least twice a year, the kitchen doubles as a meat processing plant
The most effective mosquito repellent is a shotgun
Your snowblower gets stuck on the roof
You think the start of deer hunting season is a national holiday
You head south to go to your cottage
You frequently clean grease off your barbecue so the bears won't prowl on your deck
You know which leaves make good toilet paper
The mayor greets you on the street by your first name
There is only one shopping plaza in town
The major parish fundraiser isn't bingo - its sausage making
You find -20F a little chilly
The trunk of your car doubles as a deep freezer
You attended a formal event in your best clothes, your finest jewelry and your snowmobile boots
You can play road hockey on skates
Shoveling the driveway constitutes a great upper body workout
You know the 4 seasons: Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
The municipality buys a Zamboni before a bus
You actually 'get' these jokes, and forward them to all your Northern friends
A $400 electric bill is a bargain.
Well said Kevin, but there is one thing you and I don't have where we live. We don't have the New York subway. I know you had some bad experiences while an employee, but from my vantage point everytime I ride the subway when I'm in New York is a rush. I have always felt that way, even when I was a kid.
Whenever I've gone down to the city, that front window was MINE. Heh. I don't think I got treated any worse at the time than any other "newbie" and the main thing for me was finding out that after wanting to work the railroad since I was 5 years old, I quickly learned that I just wasn't cut out for it. That was my own major disappointment. But I still love it and never missed an opportunity to go for a ride and shoot the sheet with folks who worked there. Most were amazed that I knew precisely when to shut up so they could do their thing in peace. :)
And yes, the trains are the one thing I miss the most as well.
Why the NYC Subway, of course!
:-) Andrew
if you got a rail fan window then you have the best subway / rail system !! ....lol !!
Everyone left out my two hometown and up there on best systems, Newark City Subway (PCC Era) but still good and Path prior to 9/11.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
"the dayton subway system & all with railfan window equipped cars" ...............YEA !!!
G) DC Metro
Clean, efficient, and pleasant to look at.
And, though I love NY's large and complex system, the ride on DC Metro is loads of fun. If they only had express trains and stations...
dayton
I'd say "A)".
#1 - Because it's the only subway system I know fully sufficient of.
#2 - Because I have established many times of "history" in my life on the NYCT Subway. (I remember the "good old" times, although I wasn't around when the R10's have left behind a cloud of dust on CPW and things like that.)
#3 - Because I have the most chances to ride it and I am closest to it.
I think that will take care of it. Of course, other people have lived longer than I have and have done a lot more traveling and have more experience than I do, so they have different opinions.
: )
Railfan Pete.
A! Com'on! Ok, London and Tokyo may come up close, but still, NYC.
The most unusual is Sydney Australia, which has double(really split level) cars, but it is also a Surburban Line like a combo opf the MTA and LIRR in one
The N and R station at the WTC was shown on Channel 2 News today.
... and ...?
okay
r142man
2 all the way
I saw the report and tape. They said the escalators to the WTC were totalled. (This is from the WTC mall to the underpass from Downtown to Uptown NR.) The photo showed heavy damage in the escalator area. Now I am going to guesswork based on my knowledge of the station area..
The mall is separated from the downtown platform by just a slidig door. I expect the door blew out and debris damaged the downtown platform. The escalators were outside of the door just before the downtown platform.
Based on this I am guessing the following:
1- Downtown platform damaged to some extent and some or most of the rooms there were damaged/destroyed probably by debris.
2- underpass probably full of debris at the downtown end.
3- Uptown side probably OK.
No info was given on Rector or City Hall.
I expect Whitehall is OK but is isolated from the rest of the system. I expect City hall is Ok but closed due to city direction and nearness to the site. I expect the tower is probably manned.
I have not been in the area so some of this post is educated guess.
Has any B Division person been in the area- perhaps a tower operator or T/O- C/R.
I don't understand how the Whitehall station is isolated. Why can't they run to/from Brooklyn from this station?
-Hank
From coworkers that have been on the site at ground zero,I understand that a communications equipment room at Cortlandt Street station on N/R got destroyed but the rest of the station platform area survived.
I've seen pictures of Cortlandt-1 where the ceiling over the roadbed has collapsed near the 5-car marker.
Should have read the entire posting before responding. Sorry!
Because the switches at Whitehall are controlled from City Hall Tower. To the best of my knowledge, City Hall is NOT manned at this time - this is also the reason why there is no Broadway express service.
I take the Q train to Queens Plaza from Brooklyn in the mornings on weekdays. The Q express service (Aka Q diamond) goes express in Manhattan from Canal to 57/7 whereas the Q local (Aka Q circle?) service goes local from Canal to 57/7. This is probably an effort to unclog up the road since two Q services and a W service are on the BMT Broadway line. I think its a good move.
How's the movement there? Are the expresses actually "express" unlike before where they moved up way too slow?
It seems that we always wait on the switch at Canal Street north or south bound. In the mornings I actually have made reasonably good time getting into work with this arrangement. I used to take the D to the F train to Queens Plaza before the bridge outage. That took me 45 minutes usually as long as I made the connection to the F train. Then when the bridge outage came about between July 22 and Sept 11 I took the Q to either the R, W or N to either QBP or QP which took me between 45 minutes to one hour. I have a 10 minute walk from QBP which increases my travel time. With the new arrangement of Q to QP, I make it in 45 minutes with no train changes.
This is my hypothesis on the BMT damage:
The Southbound platform has some moderate damage,the ubderpas is either full of debris or has some damage to the stairs and the uptown platform has no lights.
I don't think Rector street,Whitehall street or City hall has any damage(Besides the need for a scrubdown).
I don't think Rector street,Whitehall street or City hall has any damage(Besides the need for a scrubdown).
It's funny, right after The Day people were saying that Rector Street IRT had caved in and that there was damage to the Montague Street Tunnel (check the archives).
Like I said before, the first casualty of war ...
> They said the escalators to the WTC were totalled.
You mean the ones that burned in a fire and weren't reopened yet?
My thoughts exactly! All they did to the escalators was put sheetrock around them (and paint it quite nicely!) I used that station 3 days a week and saw no sign of activity.
John
I saw this too on Ch.5 news last night. It was a short piece showing an underpass corridor with a MTA sign for the (N)(R). Behind the sign was the escalator and everything blocked by boulders etc. I can imagine what it looked like upstairs.
Bill "Newkirk"
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October 6, 2001
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Channel 4 just announced Chambers on the A and C is open but the only exit is Chambers at Church Street (By the part-time booth which I presume will operate full-time for the time being). No mention was made of Park Place 1/2 or WTC/Chambers on the E. No mewntion of City Hall on the N/R.
Mike- change the map to show Chambers IND A/C as open.
(Channel 4 just announced Chambers on the A and C is open but the only exit is Chambers at Church Street)
I used that exit almost every day for 13 years (when not walking over the bridge for exercise). I called City Planning to see how my old mates were doing. Their phones are still out.
Sorry for being negligent in my reposting duties. I got this on Sept 21. Please Enjoy. Remember, I do not write these.
**********************************************************************
Today, We look at life in commuter passenger service.
Part 1, the South Shore
I had the chance to work in commuter passenger service at two different
times in my career. I worked for the Chicago, South Shore and South Bend for
one year as a Collector in passenger service and as a Brakeman in freight. I
also worked for Metra for two years as Locomotive Engineer. I did pilot an
Amtrak train once, an excursion train once and pulled a company business
train as well, but that is not quite the same as the daily rigors of
passenger service. In part one, we are going to look at the South Shore.
While I worked both freight and passenger while at the Shore, we'll focus
primarily on the passenger aspect.
I can honestly say that after these two stints of service, I have no desire
to return to passenger either. I guess it was what makes my boat float so to
speak.
I had been furloughed at the MoPac twice in a month from two different
locations. In the weeks prior to the second lay-off, I had only been working
a couple of days a week. With this furlough though, there wasn't any hope on
the horizon of returning anytime soon. I had already been sending out
resumes to other railroads in the quest for gainful as well as steady and
secure employment.
I got the call from the Shore about two weeks after I had been cut off at
the MoPac. I had an interview and eventually got called to report for a
physical. I, along with a friend from the MoPac who also got the call, were
both sent for physicals at the same time. This guy had a friend who worked
at the Shore and we met up with him later and discussed many aspects of the
company and the job. We both started about a week later.
We were hired as Coach Cleaners. This was some strange policy the Shore had
developed. Everybody would start out in this capacity and go through a
training program. You would have to make observation trips through all the
facilities. These trips were to be done on your own time. We had to learn
the layout of the yard at Michigan City (called Shops Yard), Gary and
Randolph Street. Aside from knowing the locations of all the tracks and the
yard layouts, we had to know where power switches that cut off power to the
overhead 1500 volt DC catenary were located in case of an emergency.
Gary was very simple, as aside from the two main tracks and the passenger
station, there were only two other tracks. They were used for storing cars
throughout the day. Randolph Street Station in Chicago was not too
difficult either.
Shops Yard was more involved though. Here were numerous tracks, most of
which were used for the passenger car fleet. There were car and locomotive
shops here to facilitate repairs on freight and passenger cars as well as
maintaining their fleet of ten GP38-2 locomotives. There was also some
contract repair work for other railroads and car leasing companies performed
here. There were a handful of tracks for freight business as well. A
passenger car wash rack was also located here.
The training program required sixty days to complete. Aside from qualifying
in the yards, we had to learn the passenger equipment. The Carmen at Shops
Yard, Gary and Randolph Street used to hostle the equipment around the yards
and build and break up the trains. We learned some of these facets while in
the training program. We had to study the rules and write out a portion of
the operating rulebook. We were given a final exam and were required to get
an 85% if I recall correctly. As part of this examination, we were also
required to draw maps of all the yards. After successful completion of the
program, we were given the opportunity to choose which craft you wished to
enter. Upon making that decision, we then began formal training in our
chosen craft.
Prior to my arrival, the best record for completing the program was
twenty-seven days. I did it in six. I had no desire to clean coaches for
four weeks yet alone two months. There was a serious lack of sleep going on
here as a result of my ambitious task. There was also a taking of note by
senior officials as to my efforts.
The senior management team on the South Shore was very visible and
accessible. When introduced to Jack Alexander, President of the railroad for
the first time, he knew who I was right away. My reputation had preceded me
into the room. For once in my life, this was a good thing. When he asked
about my ambitious accomplishment and intentions I responded matter of
factly, "I want your job."
One of the few good things I encountered at the Shore was senior management.
They talked to us frequently. They knew our names. They treated us pretty
decently all things considered. I knew all of them and was even on a first
name basis with a few of them. I even lunched with one of them a year or so
after I left the Shore.
I was told when I hired about how short they were of Engineers. I was told
that I would be running engines and trains in about six weeks or so. When I
left there one year later, I was about ready to begin the training program
to be an Engineer. More of that "promises are like babies" thing again.
The Shore had a policy in freight that required you to be a promoted flagmen
in order to work the caboose. I took the Flagman's test a few weeks after
getting qualified as a Brakeman/Collector. You didn't need it to work
passenger though. Oddly enough, there were no questions on this test at all
dealing with flagging rules and procedures. Only on the railroad could this
happen. There were only two of us on the Brakeman's extra board qualified as
Flagmen. Needless to say, we worked freight almost exclusively for a couple
of months. Eventually, they promoted several others and I worked some of
everything on both classes of service.
I talked quite a bit to several of the old heads and learned some of the
tricks of trade. They explained how some passengers went to great lengths to
beat us out of fares. They showed me how to spot them or smoke them out. I
became very good at this and caught people that had been getting away with
"shared rides" and dodging fares altogether. In several cases, those I
caught threatened to "have my job" as they considered my actions harassment.
I would write out the Director of Passenger Operation's name and telephone
number, and hand it to them. I would also include my name and tell them to
make sure they mentioned it when they called. Needless to say, none of them
ever did, as they would be giving themselves up in the process.
Shared rides; The monthly tickets were what was commonly referred to as
"flash cards." They had the zone numbers in large numerals in which the pass
was good for such as "1 and 4" This meant between Downtown Chicago (zone 1)
and East Chicago/Hammond (Zone 4). Every month, the tickets were a different
color. They were also good until noon on the first Monday of the new month
to allow riders the opportunity to get the new ticket for the new month.
Some folks would split the cost of one monthly ticket and cut it in half.
What they would do was each stick half of it into a book sort of like a
bookmark. We didn't have to punch a monthly; so most folks would just hold
them up or have them sitting in a little holder. They just flashed them at
us, hence the name flash cards.
When this tactic was explained to me, I began to check very closely. When
somebody only displayed half, I would reach over and pull it out of the book
or wherever they had it stuck, or request they remove it for me. On
occasion, there would only be half. When this happened, I confiscated it and
then charged them a cash fare. I submitted the ticket to the Director of
Passenger Operations with an incident report. I quickly gained a reputation
of being a no-good SOB for this tactic. Those I caught also called me lots
of bad names. I believe the late Charles O. Finley once said, "It doesn't
matter whether they are speaking good about you or bad about you, they are
thinking about you."
Then there were the folks that could never seem to find their ticket when
you checked them. It was standard to come back to them in a few minutes.
When tipped off that this too was a tactic for free transportation, I
changed my methods. There were four women who used to get on at two
consecutive stops in the same zone. I would normally check the first couple
after departing that stop and then the others at the other stop. One morning
for whatever reason, I checked them all at once. Of course, one could not
find hers and I came back later. This made me suspicious.
The following day, I again checked them all at once. Again, the same one
couldn't find it. I told her I would wait while she looked for it. After
extensive searching, she could not find it. I proceeded to charge her a cash
fare for the ride. She made quite the ruckus about it and called me a few
names. I politely informed her that should she continue her tirade, I would
have her removed from the train. She shut up and paid the fare.
The next morning I used the same tactic. Again, she could not find it. While
she was searching though, I took the offensive; I punched the corner of each
of the other three ladies tickets with my ticket punch. I then told her I
would be back in a minute. I came back and she hands me a monthly and says
"See, here it is." I then confiscated it and told her this was not hers as I
had not punched hers. I said it must be a stolen ticket and therefore
invalid. At first she claimed another Collector had punched it. I stated
that this would be impossible as it was my punch and nobody else's.
Everybody's punch had a distinctly different pattern that was unique to that
employee. I knew mine and knew this was it. Now she tried to drag her friend
into her little web. The friend immediately spoke up and offered to pay the
fare if I returned the ticket. I agreed and told her if this happens again I
will just call the police and have them arrested for ticket fraud.
I did this tactic to several others and smoked out a few more fraud cases
too. Some of the other Conductors and Collectors wanted to know how and why
I got so maniacal about this. I explained that this is what helps pay the
railroad, which was continuously cash strapped. The more cheats I catch, the
more farebox recovery and the better chances we will stay in business.
Counterfeiting also became a problem as somebody began to make exact copies
of monthly flash cards and was selling them. To combat this tactic, NICTD
(Northern Indiana Commuter Transit District) which subsidized the passenger
service created monthly punch ride tickets. These tickets had 57 rides on
them. The average person commuting on the train worked 22 days per month
meaning 44 rides would be used. There was no refund on unused rides if there
were less than 14 rides left on the ticket. People thought they were getting
ripped off. When I explained that you didn't get a refund on the flash card
if you didn't use it 6 or 7 days per week, that seemed to appease most of
them.
What was going on with some of these people though was this; they would let
their kids use them on the weekends to go downtown. We all knew they were
doing it, but we really couldn't enforce anything. Now with the 57 rides, if
the parent let the kids do this every weekend, they might use up all the
rides before the end of the month and leave them short the last few days.
Again, we had people passing these tickets between them. I caught onto this
and developed yet another way to catch them. I guess it pays to have a
criminal mind as I can catch those that think up these sinister little
games. I would take one and instead of punching the next ride off, I would
fold the ticket all up and take off maybe ride number 7 or some other ride
way deep in the ticket. I only did it with people I suspected. I kept a
mental note of whose I did and where.
When asked why I was doing this, I told people "Just to be silly" or some
other lame excuse. One morning I put my plan into effect. I got a ticket
from a rather attractive woman who I suspected of being a scammer with her
husband. Being the train was always jam packed when they boarded at Hammond,
they, along with numerous others, would be standing in the vestibules. They
never stood next to each other when I came to collect. What I suspected they
were doing was passing it between them behind the backs of others while I
punched tickets. Sure enough, he hands me a monthly with a ride punched in
an odd location. And I knew I hadn't punched one like that for him. Of
course he denied it and claimed another Collector had done it. So I made him
write out his name and address on the back. There was a space for this and
it was always recommended the passengers did this in case of a theft.
He didn't think too much about it until that evening when he was riding home
on my train. He gave it to me first and I punched it. His wife hands me her
ticket a few moments after and I flipped it over and saw his name on it. I
told her she was in violation as they were both attempting to ride on one
ticket. I confiscated it, charged her a fare and turned it in with a report.
She proceeded to read me the riot act and used quite the language in doing
so. I looked at her husband and asked him if he actually kissed her knowing
she had such a filthy mouth. She quickly shut up and turned about 15 shades
of red. She then gave me the I'm number one sign. That is what that finger
means, right?
Within a week, several passengers told me the word was out about my cracking
ticket scammers. They told of several other couples and some friends doing
the same thing. With my new plan in effect, they didn't want to risk
getting caught and losing the ticket altogether. Now, they were going out
and both getting monthly tickets. A few of the honest folks actually thanked
me for taking these measures.
I used to chase passengers through the train that tried to beat me out of
fares. On more than one occasion, I opened the rest room doors and chased
fare dodgers out of there as well. Strange as it may seem, I never once
walked in on anybody in the attitude of elimination or indecency. Again,
more threats would be unleashed at me and again, I heard nothing.
I once chased an elderly woman through the entire eight-car train to get a
fare. She would board an evening rush hour train at Hammond at my doors as
soon as the detraining passengers cleared. She would then vanish by heading
up to the head end of the train. One evening I attempted to stop her and she
told me she normally paid the Conductor. So I followed up on her. The
Conductor told me he never sold her a fare. So I asked to see her cash fare
receipt. She could not produce one, so I charged her. She called me all
sorts of names but paid just the same. After that, she would purchase a
ticket at the station and it to me when she boarded.
I once had a well dressed gentleman (sic) refuse to give me a ticket for his
fare. He got very ugly and stated that because the train was late; he didn't
have to pay. I politely attempted to explain that the schedule was not a
guarantee of on time performance. It was also not the basis for what fares
were charged. He began to make quite the scene. I went for assistance and
the railroad police were more than happy to usher him off the train. When he
resisted, they were even happier to cart him off (very physically as he
refused to walk) They took him for an all expenses paid trip to the crow bar
motel.
We always had to be on the lookout for scam artists that would try to talk
you out of money. They would give you say a $10 bill for a $5 fare. You give
them their ticket and change and they would say, "Since I already gave you a
ten, if I give you another ten, would you give me twenty back? Having worked
around money for years (with none of it mine), I was very wise to these
tactics. Never got stung this way, but I know some that did.
We also had to watch for the cheats that would give you a $100 bill first
thing in the morning for a $5 fare telling you this was all they had. They
knew you very likely didn't have the change. I put a stop to this when I
would take the money, give them a receipt and an IOU for their change and
tell them meet me at Randolph and they would get all their change. It was
amazing how fast they would discover a misplaced fiver or sawbuck in their
wallet or purse.
On one occasion during a mid-day run, a gentleman gave me a $100 bill for a
$4.35 fare. I asked for something smaller and he responded in a snotty tone
that he needed the change. What do I look like here, a Currency Exchange?
Being that I had to remit cash fares when I got downtown, I had enough on me
to make the change. But his attitude made me a bit upset, so I played upon
it. You'll get your change all right pal.
As luck would have it, there was the afternoon crew of Collectors
deadheading downtown on this train to be in position for the afternoon rush.
I took that C note and went to the deadhead car to get change. I worked a
plan to make change with many of the guys deadheading in that car. I then
returned to the passenger with his change. I handed him 95 singles and 65
pennies. He immediately started to bitch. I reminded him that he was the one
who said he "needed the change." I thanked him for his patronage and walked
away smiling my sinister smile.
While I quickly realized I was not too crazy about the job, I managed to
adjust to the work and lifestyle here. I eventually developed enough
seniority to hold a regular job as a collector in passenger.
About 70% or so of our passengers were women. This presented quite the
opportunity for a single guy like me. Most of our guys were married once or
more to women they had met on the trains. I was involved in a very serious
relationship that was beginning the onset of a slow and agonizing death when
I started here. This job wound up finishing it off. I dated several women
that rode the train. In fact, this was where I met the beautiful bride. She
thought I was bit screwy on our first meeting. Little did she know.
Eventually we developed rapport and the rest, is history. 15 years later and
she is still with me. It is either love or insanity. I'm hoping on the
former but betting on the latter.
Riding under that 1500-volt DC wire was well, interesting. I never really
felt comfortable with it overhead. When working freight, you always had to
mindful of its presence. When climbing a car with a high handbrake, you had
to be careful that you didn't reach up over your head. Even though there was
space, it still was within trouble making distance.
We did get into the wire one evening on a rush hour train. We were coming
into Wilson near Midwest Steel in the Portage/Burns Harbor area around 70
mph. All of a sudden there was this tremendous racket overhead like a
pounding or hammering sound. There was all sorts of arcing outside and the
lights on the train were flickering on and off. I heard the air go and held
on. We stopped quickly. I went to the intercom to talk with the Conductor
and Engineer and was told we had gotten into the wire. Don't know if it
broke or the carbon strip (which makes direct contact on the pantograph had
snagged it or what.
In any event, it was rather cold outside and we knew the cars would not stay
warm for an extended period. The Dispatcher called and said a freight job
that was heading towards Baillytown would set out their train and come and
rescue us. We herded everybody up to the head four cars as the rear two were
the ones all tangled up in the now downed wire. Being we were past Miller,
our previous stop, we did not have too large of a crowd left, so the
passengers were not all packed in like sardines.
We did have an episode though. A female passenger started to come unraveled.
She started screaming and carrying on that she had to get home and could not
be stuck on the train. I told the Conductor that a smack across the face
might straighten her up, like in the movies. He laughed and decided against
it. I guess that is why he was the Conductor and I wasn't. She started to
carry on that she worked for the railroad and demanded we get a hold of
somebody to get her off this train.
The Conductor called the Dispatcher and relayed the information. He
apparently contacted her husband who drove to the train and picked her up.
Of course, this created a bit of an uproar with the remaining crowd. The
freight engines showed up and coupled on. All South Shore engines carried
the special adapter needed to couple the standard AAR coupler to the
tightlock couplers used on the passenger cars. There was also an adapter
hose to allow connections for the brake pipe. We could not connect any power
source as the locomotives did not have head end power and the cars used
rapid transit style grids to make the MU connections between the cars. So
they operated on their battery back up for the rest of the trip in. This
meant emergency lighting and no heat or air circulation.
I learned the next day that the woman who created such a fuss was dismissed.
She was not an agreement employee; that is protected under a collective
bargaining agreement. She was in a white-collar position referred to as a
non-agreement employee. This meant they did not have to show cause and
present such a cause in an investigation.
The first head on collision that happened in Gary took place about four
months or so before I got here. In working there for a year I could see how
it happened. A lot of rules were "overlooked" to try to keep trains on time.
When I first started there, trains were only on time about 57% of the time,
the single worst in the industry. It wasn't bad track and speed
restrictions; it was due to being a victim of our own success. Passenger
levels had grown significantly and the schedules could not handle the
extended dwell time at each station to meet the growing demands. So
schedules were extended to allow more time. Then they raised fares.
Oh boy, a fare increase. It had been the first one there in years. The
passengers screamed bloody murder. NICTD added several more trains to the
schedule and was attempting to secure funds to order additional cars. I was
getting tired of fighting with passengers who didn't want to pay the fare
increase and were demanding the help take a cut in their pay to avoid such
an increase. I had to explain to people that contrary to popular belief, we
were not making $150,000 per year. Hell, we weren't making a fifth of that.
I frequently mentioned they all had received annual wage increases and how
we had not had one in over a year and a half. They didn't care; we should
take cuts so they can ride cheap.
I was starting to burn out from all this. I quit defending the railroad and
told them point blank, "If you don't like it, drive. You can spend all that
time in traffic, burn up all that gas and then spend a fortune to park
downtown. In a month you'll be back and happy to pay the increase." This
shocked quite a few people. It also shut them up.
As I had mentioned, rules were overlooked. I got called for a flagging job
one day in Gary. I was protecting some construction workers near, but not on
the tracks. The handset radio they issued to me had developed problems and
would not transmit more than about 1000 feet. So I did the proper flagging
thing and set out torpedoes to slow the trains to restricted speed. When
they got close enough for me to be able to talk to them, I could allow them
to proceed through my limits. They did not have me on a train order to
protect my limits; it was up to me to contact the trains.
I later got my butt chewed by an acting Assistant Trainmaster for using this
method, even though it was required by the rules. His exact words were "It
is causing too much delay to the trains." Never mind the rule in the very
front of the book that stated "Speed will be sacrificed for safety", I was
slowing already late trains down. I was going to go see the Assistant Super
about him but an Engineer went and turned him in to the Superintendent
first. I got to hear the ripping of hind side from three offices away. When
it was all said and done, this guy comes up to me and tells me like a little
kid, "Thanks to you, I got in trouble." I told him I did not turn him in as
I was beaten to the draw. However I mentioned that he deserved it.
This lead to a blood feud between us. He would go out of his way to try to
get me on some chickenshit charge. I would usually prevail. He did get to
cite me once on a very minor infraction, nothing that even caused me any
grief. All I got was a letter in my file. This simply meant that the
infraction had been pointed out to me and it had been discussed with me and
I signed a letter stating such. There was no disciplinary action taken.
I was able to get him in huge trouble again though. He made the terrible
mistake of giving out my home phone number to a female passenger. She called
my house. When she did, I asked her how she got my number as I have always
been unpublished and unlisted. She told me she called the Dispatcher and
that he gave it to her. She said that she told him it was very important. I
called him and asked and he admitted to it. The next morning I contacted the
Assistant Super and explained what had transpired the evening before. He
stated the rules were very clear that it was expressly forbidden to give out
employee phone numbers to anybody. So this guy got still another hind side
slashing. I thoroughly enjoyed this news when I was told. I know, I must be
sadistic or something.
Towards my last few months there, we were having another of our many
financial crunches. There was talk of reductions in weekday service and the
possible elimination of some or all weekend service. The Chicago news media
was covering this entire episode. They sent TV crews out to ride the trains
to get reaction from passengers and train crews. I had a crew on my train
from the NBC affiliate. I even made the late news. I Iooked like an old man.
The stress of far less money and as many hours along with the long drive was
catching up and taking its toll.
As the South Shore and its funding source of NICTD always seemed to be in
financial trouble and the fact that I was not really happy here, I continued
to look for greener pastures. I always wondered if I was going to have a job
the next month. I didn't need that as I spent enough time dealing with that
same issue in the last few years on the MoPac. Eventually, I was called by
Guilford and left the Shore for New England.
My friends there told me I was crazy for leaving. They kept telling me how
good I had it. Hmm, let's see; I'm making about 40% less per day and I'm
working as a Collector and still not an Engineer. Engineers here make less
than I did at the MoPac. I have to drive 40 miles each way to and from work
through a region that has terrible snow storms in the winter. I didn't feel
particularly safe working here owing to the rules attitude. I have it how
good?
In part 2 we'll look at my time at Metra.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
(you'll see my mug shot there, suitable for target practice)
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001 by JD Santucci.
Here's a question about an often-ignored rapid transit line, the Cleveland Transit System. I know that CTS used to use a line car that had been rebuilt from a 1914-era center entrance streetcar. The number of this thing was #024. Does anyone know what happened to it? Another center-entrance car that was rebuilt in a similar manner was Shaker Heights #031, and that is preserved (sorta) at the Northern Ohio Railway Museum. But what about the 024?
Frank
I believe it is still on the property. I saw it there last summer at E 55th. I hear some rumors of it going to Trolleyville but don't know for sure.
Laddie
You can find "Peter Witt" center entrance cars in museums around the country. Shoreline at Branford CT has two, #2898 from Toronto, is the classical single direction version (she'll be used by Santa's in Dec.); #8111 is a double ender (she's from Brooklyn & needs restoration). Seashore in ME also has two: #1213 from Rochester & made in Cincinnati plus #6144 from Baltimore & made by Brill.
Mr t
How was 2898 regauged?
-Robert King
Sorry, don't know the specifics of that, but she does operate just fine on our standard guage line.
Mr t
I think that re-gauging was done by the NHRR shops for us in
the 1960s or early 70s. An inch and a half is not a very
difficult thing to do. We just pressed each wheel in another
3/4 inch and relocated the brake hangers on the brake beams.
Probably the axle collars had to be faced down too.
I should go ask my contacts at GCRTA for info on 024.
Their GM apparently doesnt like the "junk" cars around the yard,and wants to be rid of them ASAP. There was an offer by Trolleyville to lend their operating ex-Shaker cars for the recent line extension opening, but was declined because of the image they wanted to protect. This is second hand info.
"Their GM apparently doesnt like the "junk" cars around the yard,and wants to be rid of them ASAP."
Oops. Well, I hope they don't scrap much old stuff (if they have old stuff). Doesn't CTS keep one of the old 1950's rapid transit cars around (I think it's either 109 or 112), along with the "Airporter" rapid transit car that's owned by the Northern Ohio Railway Museum? Of course, here I'm referring to the heavy rail system and not the old Shaker Heights line.
Those "old" heavy rapid cars were unfortunately included, as per someone who worked hard to keep them off the cut up list. I don't know what the real situation is out there. Sounds real strange to me.
GCRTA is also looking at that guideway bus thingy that the French have been trying to sell US properties (check the GCRTA website), that everyone who has tried it in Europe has "difficulty" with (ref the LRTA mag). Wait til it snows.
The 109 was pulled off the scrap list at the last minute. They did not recieve any bids for the other cars.
Laddie Vitek
"The 109 was pulled off the scrap list at the last minute. They did not recieve any bids for the other cars."
Does that mean it's for sale? I thought they were keeping it as some sort of excursion car, a la 4271 and 4272 on the CTA. If it's for sale, we should mention it to Jerry... I have to say it would look less out-of-place than some of the other rapid transit cars we're thinking of acquiring at IRM...
8-)
It's been a few weeks running under the emergency service plan
on broadway and things really suck. 2 questions spring to mind.
1) If it is going to be 6 months before the lower broadway tracks
re-open, how feasible would it be to back out of the Manhattan
Bridge project and restore service on the north side?
2) If not, isn't there any other route code that can be used
for the bway-QB service? This circle-Q diamond-Q stuff is
confusing the hell out of the passengers.
1. It would be up to NYCDOT to back out of the Manhattan Bridge project. I brought the matter up with the planners when the World Trade Center-related changes first happened, and was informed that the project was already well under way -- some of the infrastructure is already gone. As for 6 months of no BMT Broadway local service, we'll see... :-)
2. Other route codes could be used, I suppose, but just as people got used to circle 6/diamond 6 and circle 7/diamond 7, they can get used to circle Q/diamond Q.
David
With a sawzall, you could take the express / local indicators out of the departing redbirds, and install them in the R68's! no problem.
...or they could hang one or two lanterns in the front window, like for Paul Revere at old north church in Boston...
Or people could observe and learn, for once.
WHaddarya? nuts?
Ha, ha, ha ha!
Hang a dothead sup to light up the express path. Peter
If it is going to be less than 6 months, I guess the Bway line
can stick it out for that long. I think all the DOT has been
doing is lead abatement.
The reason I dislike the Qdot Qdiamond is because it goes against
everything the TA has been trying to do over the past decade in terms
of route code simplification. You have 2 significantly different
routes operating under the same letter. The 7 line circle/diamond
is a pure local/express distinction. The Pelham service is similar
to the Q circ/diamond fiasco, but the difference between the services
is only in the Bronx, and it is more logical in that the local train
terminates early with a zone express. The Q circle is a local
but its terminal is much further out, on another line, really.
Back in 85 I disagreed with the elimination of double letters.
I still think that system was more mnemonic that what we have
now.
Why would you want to switch Manhattan Bridge service back to 6th Ave. now? That would mean that the Broadway BMT would be completely out of service south of Canal St., with no service to or from Brooklyn at all. So it's a good thing that the bridge flip did take place 9/11.
Er, a word got deleted by mistake. That should of course read "...did take place before 9/11."
Not switch back, but have all 4 tracks available.
there is a bway service plan? sure coulda fooled me! f'iggitaboutit!!!! =)
So why can't the R run Forest Hills - City Hall with all that R46 equipment laying around, and forget the circle-Q extension ?
David has said that the local tracks south of Prince can't be used.
"David has said that the local tracks south of Prince can't be used."
Close. What I said, and what remains true today, is that the local tracks south of Prince Street are usable, but their use is still being prohibited by the (non-NYCT) Powers That Be. As soon as NYCT is given permission to run through the area, service will resume.
David
Well today is a rare double feature due to some recent lazyness on my part. I recieved this on Sept 28th. Sorry about the chart. Subtalk sort of massacres the format. Enjoy
**********************************************************************
Today, It's a stand off.
I had every intention of writing part two about "Life in Commuter" this
time, but the wacky world of real life railroading dealt me yet another
episode that seemed to almost demand I write about it instead. I'll get to
back to Commuter soon though.
For those of you unfamiliar with Otto on the CNIC Chicago Subdivision, I
will give you background and even attempt a first and include a map. The
folks at Rand McNally need not be concerned of my cutting into my market
share.
We'll start with the map. The top will be north and the bottom south.
And it goes without saying it is not to scale.
to Gar Creek MP 57.6 (north end of Otto Siding)
and Chicago.............^..
...................../I...I
.....Henkel........./.I...I
.....Chem..........I..I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
..............Otto....I...I
.............MP 60.3 I...I
......................I\..I
......................I.\.I
.............---------I...I...North wye connecting
......................I...I...to B&P Main
.............---------I...I...South wye connecting
.................... /I...I...to B&P Main
..................../.I...I
.................../..I...I
................../.I.I...I
................./..I.I...I
Stone...........I...I.I...I
Yard............I...I.I...I
Tracks..........I...I.I...I
.1.&.2...........\..I.I...I
..................\.I.I...I
...................\..I...I
....................\.I...I
.....................\I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
......................I...I
.......................\..I
.........................\I
..........................I..South Otto MP 61.7
So now that you have gazed upon it, let me explain it just a bit. The track
on the left is the siding between Otto and Gar Creek. Once upon a time, this
used to be the other main track. The track to the right is of course, the
main. The track to the left between Otto and South Otto is the Otto Pass.
The other main track used to sit in between the Pass and the main. Now it is
a road. The two tracks to the left off the Pass are called Stone Yard 1 and
2. Otto (switches from siding to main and north wye) and South Otto (switch
from Pass to main) are control points controlled by the Desk 2 (Chicago
South) Dispatcher. The stone yard tracks and the south leg of the wye to
the B&P Main are hand-operated switches.
When a northbound train has to set out at Otto, there are three ways to
accomplish this task. The Dispatcher can line the train right into the Pass
at South Otto and they can set out from there into the Stone Yard. Or they
can run you down the main and into Otto/Gar Creek Siding and you back the
set out through the control point into the pass leaving the set out there or
lining yourself into one of the Stone Yard tracks. Instead of lining you
into Otto Pass, they can have you set out on the B&P Main. In this case, the
Dispatcher handles the switches for the move. In most cases, the second and
third choices are chosen over the first. In many cases, there are cars
already on the pass, so you have no choice.
Clear as mud?
Now, with all this in mind, here is the scenario that took place Saturday,
September 22nd. I am working 338 heading south. We have just made our set
out at Kankakee some two miles north of Gar Creek. We are departing and
Chicago South informs us we will be heading into the siding at Gar Creek,
and then from Otto we will use Otto Pass to South Otto. This is because a
northbound coal train (727) has to make a set out and pick up from the Stone
Yard at Otto.
I left Kankakee on an approach signal meaning that I most likely will have a
stop signal at Gar Creek. My Conductor Charlie Peck and I discussed the
ramifications of what was starting to unfold before us. We incorrectly
presumed the coal train was taking headroom on the siding to back into the
pass with his set out and would then go against his pick up. We figured the
Dispatcher was going to hold us at Gar Creek while he made these moves. We
were wrong, again. That's what we get for thinking.
I come around the corner and observe a diverging approach signal (red over
yellow) at Gar Creek. This tells me that I am lined up to enter the siding
here. So we proceed on signal indication trying to figure out what is
playing out here. As I approach Otto, I observe the signal there is a
restricting (red over red over flashing red). This signal means I am either
lined up to proceed into Otto Pass or am erroneously lined into the north
wye for the B&P Main. On occasion, a Dispatcher has coded in the wrong line
up, so nothing is left to chance. I proceed prepared to stop short of an
improperly line switch.
We see the correct line up. The Conductor on 727 informs us that he has
lined the hand operated switches for us and are now lined up to proceed
directly into the Pass. This saves us a stop. We also observe 727 still on
the main awaiting our passage before starting to do his work. We quickly
realize this plan is destined to fail.
Chicago South had instructed 727 to stop back when making his cut to leave
room to hold his pick up. This means they had to stop back far enough to
allow enough room for their pick up to be added back to their train so as to
clear the signals at Otto. This way when they completed their work and air
test, the Dispatcher could run them right down the main. This was one of a
series of very serious errors in judgement.
Now closing in behind 727 is F711, a Union Pacific detour train. Back in the
distance some 40 miles or so Amtrak 58, the northbound City of New Orleans.
I pull into the Pass almost as far as I can go, stopping just one car length
from the signal at South Otto. 727's train is hung out across South Otto and
well south of there. 711 has stopped behind him with about a five-car gap
between them. I have 104 cars. Otto Pass is good for about 106 cars. 727's
Engineer, Craig Pugh informs me we have cleared the signal at Otto by about
a car length or so. The Stone Yard tracks are effectively blocked, as my
train does not clear them to allow 727 access to set out and pick up.
He can't move. I can't move. 711 can't move. In the old days, this was what
we called "A Mexican Standoff." In today's political correct world you
cannot say it. However, I never much subscribed to political correctness.
This far outweighs the old "Catch 22" situation of being damned if you do
and damned if you don't because here, you just plain and simply cannot.
Charlie and I discuss what can be done here to clear things up and get them
rolling again. All they have to do have the coal train couple back up, get
his air and head to Kankakee to set out and just highball the pick up. Then
have 711 head into the siding at Otto to clear and we just sit and wait for
Amtrak. 727 should have his work complete at Kankakee by the time 58 shows
up and does his station work in town. This would give 727 enough time to
pull his train all the way into the clear at KX, the south end of Kankakee
Siding. Being that he has over 70 cars after the set out, he would not clear
up at KX when he stopped to do his work. Or, they could have 727 shove his
cars onto teh B&P Main and highball the pick up, pull into the siding and
let 711 around him. However, being that I am not running the show, I offer
no advice. And having had a few Dispatchers take exception to my suggestions
over the past 23 years, I offer them none.
Instead, 727 calls Chicago South and informs him they cannot set out as we
are in the way. There is the normal "Stand by" response and then dead
silence. After about 10 minutes, Chicago South calls 727 and asks how many
he has to set out here, "Seven" replies Craig. "And now many do you have to
pick up?" "Twenty-three" is the response. "Stand by"
One of the things we railroaders do best is stand by. We have years and
years of practice at it. This is because we have been told to do it so
frequently and routinely. I firmly believe it is the very first standard
response in the list of responses in the Train Dispatcher training manual. I
have developed my skills of standing by into an art form all unto it's own.
Perhaps we could make this a competitive event in the Summer Olympics.
Some twenty minutes has elapsed from the time Craig informed Chicago South
that we are in the way to this moment and no instructions have been given.
Also at this point, we have less than four hours to work.
Finally after about another five minutes, Kenny McMullen, the Conductor on
the daylight switcher at Kankakee gets a hold of the Dispatcher and suggests
he have 727 set the cars out on the lead that goes into Henkel Chemical.
This track comes off Gar Creek Siding about three miles north of where we
are sitting. This is agreed upon and 727 gets his train back together and
pulls into the siding. 711 passes him by going down the main and heads in at
KX to clear for Amtrak. By this time, 58 is by the detector at Clifton some
seven miles south of here.
Now here is what should have been done to start out with. 727 should have
been headed into Gar Creek siding first. They had two options with us. They
could have held us in the siding at Kankakee. 727 would not have had to make
his cut so far back so as to hold his pick up. They could have brought 711
up behind him. Had they held us in Kankakee, when 727 completed with his
work, he could have pulled all the way into the siding and let 711 around
him. 711 would have met us at Kankakee and could have easily made to Peotone
or even possibly to Stuenkel and the double track for 58.
Option 2 would be to bring us down the main at Gar Creek to Otto. Again, 727
would use the siding and do his work. 711 comes up behind him. Instead of
doing his air test right there, 727 could have pulled into the siding
clearing up for everybody and do his air test there. Head 711 in at South
Otto, as he would have easily fit. We head south from Otto when 727 clears
and affect the meet with 711 at South Otto when he clears. We can race to
Ashkum for 58, possibly not delaying him at all. There was a slow order of
25 mph in effect for several miles south of Ashkum, account track work in
progress, so it was likely we would not have dinged 58 at all.
Once upon a time, about ten years ago, there was another crossover at Otto.
This switch was located north of the present switch and just south of the
southward home signal that protects this control point. It allowed southward
movements from the main track into Otto Pass and the B&P Main. Trains could
use either the main track for headroom and opposing movements could
patiently wait on whatever track was not being used for headroom for the
train doing work to complete it. This switch also gave the Dispatchers much
greater flexibility. However, owing to "cost effectiveness", this switch was
removed. A decision was made to cut costs. That was all that mattered.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001 by JD Santucci
As a responce to security concearns, Amtrak has discontinued the sale of tickets onboard its Northeast Corridor trains from Washington to Boston. Tickets can still be purchased on a train on the Empire and Keystone Corridors and the Inland Route, but you will still be required to show a photo ID. This policy is going into effect on Monday.
I read about this in today's Times (albeit without the details) and as I am planning a trip to Boston next week and was planning to buy my ticket on board I caught a local bus to Meriden, CT (8 miles), bought my ticket and then caught the next bus back an hour later. It was only later that I learned the ban did not apply to inland trains. However, my ticket was $5 cheaper than was quoted online so it was worth it.
I fail to see what this accomplishes.
Terrorists have tickets, photo-ID's, and even stolen or phoney SS #'s.
Terrorists would probably als choose a mode of transportation with a higher passenger density. Let's see, Amtrak trains with about 8 cars with 2-2 seating and nearly indestructable Budd build coaches with limited access from very public stations or an SRO LIRR train with like 14 cars, 3-2 seating, isles just brimming with people and completely unmonitored access from small local stations that have drive up parking. Heck, it even costs less.
This comes under the heading of pacifying the pax by "doing what they can." When the new national ID cards are issued, it may serve some purpose.
When the new national ID cards are issued, it may serve some purpose.
You seem certain about that.
When the new national ID cards are issued, it may serve some purpose.
There aren't goint to be national ID cards. For photo ID, A valid State Driver License/ or ID card will suffuce.
The problem is that no one in NY knows what a Wyoming driver's license looks like.
What if the station has no ticket booth, or it is closed when the train arrives?
You are SOL.
Of course you really have to be a pudding to miss the ticket window hours at NEC stations. Even then most of the busiest stations have TVM's that are still perfectly ok to use 24/7.
Not all stations! Metropark closes at 830pm weekends and Holidays and 1030pm weekdays. The Amtrak Ticket machine is inside the station building.Amtrak does have trains leaving Metropark when the station building is closed.
Especially on weekends I get many people walking up to me asking whre they can get a ticket for Amtrak and I have to tell them the building closed at 830pm.
To answer the question, they will just have to buy the tickets in advance.
Princeton Jct's Amtrak machine is also inside the depot, which does not open until 730am on weekends. Just when Amtrak has a chance to boost ridership, they do this knee-jerk security crap, and shoot themselves in the foot.
**Maybe** (We can hope! that is still allowed!) They'll move all ticket machines to an outdooor location (or add a second machine.)
To Joe V- e-mail me off site. I am interested in a description of the Shuttle from princeton Jct to Princeton with pictures of Princeton Station.
Since you must be near Princeton Jct it will be prwetty cheap for you to cover this brief shuttle for nycsubway.org
Go home.
The station at Meriden CT on Amtrak's Springfield Line had always looked sort of run down. The station reeked of 70's unattractiveness and the concrete platforms were crumbling and patched with asphalt. However, over the last 3 months the station has seen some significant improvements. The old platform was dug up and replaced with new new concrete. The rubish strewn trackbed was cleaned and re-balasted and a new metal canopy now protects the entire platform length from the elements. The train station does serve as a local transit hub and if in the middle of Downtown Meriden (if you can call it a downtown.) This may be a step in a much larger project that might also create a bus terminal for local bus routes and taxi services that converge on the station.
Yes, but how many folks does it serve ? Can you count them on two hands ?
Mr t
Good old Meriden. I can't count how many times I drove through it on Conn. 66, now I-691, when I lived in Cheshire.
It's official, the 4:54PM out of LIC (Headed to Oyster Bay) travels along the old montauk line! I did it today, it was awesome, the scenes around you are wonderful! I didn't see any R142s along the side, but the diesel yard is freakin cool. A must for any LIRR railfan!
Too bad that Richmond Hill Station is now closed, because that was a good place to get pictures. The other stations on the line were almost rural in their settings.
There was no logistical reason to close it. It had hi-level platforms, but hardly any customers.
hardly any customers is a somewhat logical reason, no?
i'm sure the line would have done better if it had regular service, not just rush hour only... that and some real platforms. wasn't richmond hill the only one with hi level? penny bridge was a (*^&%*$*$%^) dirty road crossing without even a sign!!!
if i recall right, at the end there was perhaps a dozen people that got on or off along the line...
A friend of mine works for the airlines, He is thinking of going to Europe later this month to ride subways, trams and watch trains. He has been to London, and Amsterdam, What place would be the most interesting for 3 days Berlin, Munich, Paris, or other suggestions.
Berlin has a lot of options - rapid transit, trams, etc. and I hope to get there myself someday. Another option with a lot of trams would be Vienna. Paris Metro is nice (and if he's never been to Paris he should go) but it's almost all underground and doesn't have much variety, all things considered.
Air fare on Northwest thru Amsterdam this winter is around 350.00 with taxes. Hotel packages with good hotels starts at 77.00 a night for a single, 42.00 pp double including breakfast and taxes 3***
I've been to many European cities; all are extremely diverse and interesting whether your interest lies in trolleys, subways, trolleybuses or railroads.
But my favorite city is Karlsruhe, Germany. The system there has to be one of the most - if not the most - progressive one in the world. The Verkehrsbetriebe Karlsruhe (VBK) operates trolleys and railroad trains on the same tracks (even though the 18th Century-minded Sleeping Beauties at the Federal Railway Administration says this is technically impossible and certainly can't be done), and have done so safely for over fifteen years.
They also have what I believe to be the longest trolley line (numbered S4) in the world - over 56 miles, with a one way traveling time exceeding two hours. This line starts out as a regular streetcar line in the town of Heilbronn, and at the western end of town climbs onto the rails of the Deutsche Bundesbahn (DBAG German Federal Railway network). It then stays on the DBAG tracks operating as a high-speed interurban until reaching the outskirts of Karlsruhe, where a ramp from the DBAG tracks connects with the city's streetcar system. The line then goes through downtown Karlsruhe, which is strictly a beautiful pedestrian and trolley-only mall (where trolleys operate on a 1 to 2-minute frequency all day long) about two miles long. After exiting the mall, the line runs on the street to just in front of the main railway station, then goes back onto the DBAG tracks for its high-speed journey to the main railway station at Baden-Baden. Along the way, where the trolley shares the tracks with the DBAG, you may pass or see the famous ICE (Intercity Express) trains, along with regular high speed and local freight, passenger and commuter trains. The S4 is not the only route to offer a trolley/railroad service; at least six other lines also do so (with about 115 kilometres of dual-running) - and more are planned. The trolley network in Karlsruhe and environs, including the 115-km operated on DBAG rails, is about 341-km. The trolleys that offer this service are dual-voltage vehicles, designed to operate either on the normal 750-volt trolley or the high-voltage railway network. Some of these dual-voltage trolleys have operated in demonstration service on the national railway systems in France and Switzerland, starting their journey from Karlsruhe!
As if this isn't enough, one route, S1, offers trolley and steam locomotive service, again on the same tracks (although the steam-hauled trains operate on a very limited schedule).
The brilliant German engineers (not transit "con"-sultants as in the U.S.A.) have built a world-class transportation system for this medium-sized city. It has been so successful that the 1998 deficit for the entire local transit network was only DEM 41 million (about 20 million dollars). Numerous other European cities are now considering or building the same systems with assistance from the VBK. Why can't we do the same in North America?
Interesting - you bet. One shouldn't journey to Europe without stopping by to see this fabulous system, which is just about 100 miles south of Frankfurt.
>>> Karlsruhe, Germany. The system there has to be one of the most - if not the most - progressive one in the world. <<<
Joe;
How old is that system. Karlsruhe was one of my favorite cities to visit when I was in Germany in 1960, but I do not remember any trams there at all. Are the trams run with multiple units or single cars? And do they really use trolleys? That seems pretty unique in Germany since most trams use pantographs.
In 1960, the area which really impressed me with the interurban trams was Mannheim, which was well connected with all the towns around it using articulated trams running on streets in the towns and on its own ROW between towns.
Tom
They use pantographs.
-Robert King
The Karlsruhe system dates from 1877, and it was the only one built to standard gauge in southwestern Germany. Articulated cars are used; some operate in multiple unit. There are also high-speed express services offered on some of the routes that utilize the German Federal Railway tracks and on the Albtalbahn (the first Karlsruhe area interurban). Current collection is by pantograph; the word "trolley" was used as a generic term for the vehicles.
The Mannheim system which you mention is similar in ways to Karlsruhe's operation, except that it is narrow-gauge. Some routes are interurban in nature; none of the routes, however, operate on the German Federal Railway system . The interwoven systems in that area, located not too far north of Karlsruhe, actually connect three cities in a triangular -shaped network: Mannheim, Ludwigshafen and Heidelberg.
Sounds interesting for 1 day, 100 miles South of Frankfurt?
Just about. Between Frankfurt and Karlsruhe, in a generally south direction from Karlsruhe, there are also trolley systems in Mainz, Darmstadt, Mannheim, Heidelberg and Ludwigshafen (in three latter cities there are 5 separate systems, but are they are integrated).
To fully appreciate the Karlsruhe system, which is extremely widespread, one needs at least three days, although a good sample could be attained in one. To "chase" and photograph this system fully, at least two weeks are required because of its expansive size.
Excellent articles on the Karlsruhe system recently appeared in the December 200 and April 2001 issues of Modern Tramway; also a new beautiful large photo-filled hardcover book on this system's history (available at the systems retail souvenir and public relations store at Marktplatz) was recently published; it is, however, in German, but the photos, rosters and system chronology alone are worth the price.
If you'd like to see European trains and trams without leaving your 'puter may I suggest my Webcam site at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html and click onto:
Rapperswil Switzerland for its major train station Zurich Switzerland for trams Munich for a German train yardand both Poland webcams have streetcars. For bus fans click onto Dublin Ireland. There are also some American cams with trains on it from around the country. The LIE webcam at Willis Av has the overpass with the Oyster Bay Branch on it and if you click the FDR drive then click 135 Street there is an overpass with Metro North on it.
Brussels is worth a visit, with quite a lavish metro for its size, and a very extensive tram network witrh plenty of varity: different vehicles, reserved track, street running, and underground lines. The tram route to Tervuren runs past a transport museum, then through the countryside to a large park - very restful, and historic vehicles run during the weekends in the summer.
Ghent is easy to get to from Brussels, and has both trams and trolleybuses running in the city centre. I am told that Antwerp is well worth a visit too.
He decided on Berlin, see later Post
M0SCOW for its gorgeous stations and mid-50s like trains.
wayne
THERE'S a place that would be interesting to visit. Gotta get hooked up with some Moscow Metro staff so we can have a guided tour -- or at least not be bothered while taking pictures! :-)
Perhaps next year?:)
Simon
Swindon UK
St. Petersburg has a nice system too... my daughter was actually more impressed with that one than with Moscow's when she was there in 1998.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Moscow system's getting an extension, too. I don't know any of the details of it, but it was reported here (Toronto) because they bought one of the TBM machines used to dig the Sheppard line's tunnels from the TTC to use on their extension.
-Robert King
The Moscow central area stations are like being in a museum; however, in the outer areas the stations are very plain, almost bleak.
But they are DEEP! Long (and fast) escalator runs to get to the platforms. Reminded me of the deepest London Stations.
Fare was 5 Kopeks in 1990. About a penny to go anywhere in the system!
I am surprised that no one has posted this yet, but the Chambers St./World Trade Center station has been reopened for passenger service.
I was waiting for a downtown A at Canal St. today at about 5:15 when an announcement was made that the Chambers St. station was now open in both directions. I was surprised to hear that, and I convinced myself that the guy doing the announcement must have said that Chambers was *not* open, and I misheard him. Then I looked up and saw several people with quizzical looks which seemed to say, "Did I really hear that?" So I realized that I wasn't the only one who had heard it. I concluded that the station announcer misspoke.
But, sure enough, when I got on the next downtown A, they announced on the train loudly and clearly, "the Chambers St./World Trade Center stop is now open."
That is exactly how the announcement was made, with the station's full name. I must say it felt nice to hear it said that way, as opposed to hearing that awkward pause that is usually inserted by conductors when they refer to it simply as "Chambers St." ("Attention ladies and gentlemen. This train will be skipping the Chambers St.-- (pause) -- station.")
I was on what had to have been the last passenger train to stop at Chambers/WTC. I got off an A there on Sept. 11 at about 9:20 (a few minutes after the second collision). It was a pleasant surprise to be on a train that was among the first to re-open the station.
Ferdinand Cesarano
It opened at about 4:45 PM.
Now, of course, someone is going to be a kvetch and ask "Why didn't they open the WTC station for the E". Very simple. Where would people go? The south exit will be closed for the duration. And when they walk to the north end to use the staircase, where do they wind up? You guessed it - the Chambers St station on the A, C.
The WTC E station should be open for all those who are working at the site. Maybe they could rig up some sort of direct access. Fare control there could be used in reverse. You need to show ID to get OUT of the station, but comming the other way it would be free. I think that the MTA could begrudge some free transportation to those who are cleaning up the big mess down there.
The WTC E station should be open for all those who are working at the site. Maybe they could rig up some sort of direct access. Fare control there could be used in reverse. You need to show ID to get OUT of the station, but comming the other way it would be free. I think that the MTA could begrudge some free transportation to those who are cleaning up the big mess down there.
Last I heard, the Ground Zero workers assemble at the Javits Center and travel down to the area in groups.
You idea would require police to be posted at the station to limit the people allowed to exit. That would be one more cost for the city to have to absorb.
Wait wait, you got off and A train at 9:20 on the 11th! Why on earth did you do that? Where did you go from there? Had the news not reached you?
Wait wait, you got off and A train at 9:20 on the 11th! Why on earth did you do that? Where did you go from there? Had the news not reached you?
I knew about the first crash only. I got on the A at about 8:45 at Rockaway Blvd. I was listening to the radio, to Bob Buchmann on Q-104.3. At the 80th St. stop, soon before we went underground, Buchmann said that there were some incredible pictures on CNN, and it seems that a plane has hit the World Trade Center. Then, we went underground, and I couldn't hear the radio any more.
I work at 90 Church St., directly across Vesey St. from the World Trade Center. Yet, it did not occur to me that I shouldn't go to work. The scope of the event just wasn't yet apparent.
When the A train got to Jay St., there was an announcement that the train would be going over the 6th Ave. line. I figured that this must be because of whatever was happenng at the WTC, but I still had no clue of the magnitude.
We sat at Jay St. for quite a bit, then there was another announcent which said that the train would be going normal, but, "due to an emergency at the World Trade Center", we would be skipping Chambers St. More waiting, then a third announcement, this one saying that we would be going over the 6th Ave. line.
Then we took off, and I was surprised when we pulled up next not at York St., but at High St. -- we were going the normal route after all.
I assumed that we would be skipping Chambers St./WTC -- since that's what announcement #2 had said -- so I prepared myself to get off at Broadway/Nassau. But, before we pulled in to that stop, an announcement was made stating that Chambers would be the next stop after Broadway/Nassau. So, I stayed on, since the Barclay St. exit of the Chambers/WTC station is just a few yards from the door of my building.
When the train got to the Chambers St. station, the place was completely deserted. There was no one on the platform -- no passengers, no MTA people, no cops. It was only at this point that the first little light went on in my head suggesting that something major might have happened.
This led me to look back on the strange announcements at Jay St. and realize that the subway folks were in a state of confusion. I started to get a sinking feeling that, in all the confusion, the powers-that-be thought that our train had gone the 6th Ave. route, since that had been the last announcement. I then got the scary thought that maybe the MTA somehow didn't know the passengers from my train were in the WTC station, and maybe they've closed the station, trapping us in there.
I was very eager to get to the street at this point, and I went to the Murray St. exit instead of going all the way down to the Barclay St. exit. When I got to the staircase, I was really happy not to see gates at the top, and I ran up the stairs with a sense of relief. I figured that whatever was going on at the WTC would cause havoc in the street, but that I would be inside my building in no time, so I would be alright.
Then all the people on the staircase were met by a cop at that top who told us we couldn't walk south down Church St. I walked across Church St. to the other side to think about what to do, since I was being told I couldn't go to my building. Only then did I look up.
I knew about one crash, so I expected to see one of the towers with a hole in one of its sides or something. Instead, I was shocked to see both towers on fire -- no. 1 with black smoke billowing out of it, and no. 2 with red flames coming from a red gash. I quickly thereafter gathered from people in the street that there had been a second crash into the second building, and this made me realize that it was no accident.
I realize now that the second crash had occurred only minutes before my ascent onto the street. If not for the long delay at Jay St., I might have seen the second crash.
So, anyway, I am assuming that this was the last train into Chambers St./WTC until this afternoon.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Wow. Someone at the TA put you at tremendous risk by letting you off there.
Wow,
Quite a story, glad you're OK.
Marc
I thought the official name of the A/C station was Chambers Street and the official name of the E station was World Trade Center. They're often referred to informally as a unit, but Chambers Street is the full name of the station that your train stopped at and that previous trains were skipping.
Is Park Place open as well?
Park Place is still closed (at least as of 830am on 10/7) and I expect it will be closed for sometime due to the proximity to Broadway (one entrance actually exits to broadway). The other exit connects to the undeground passageway leading to the WTC Mall andf to the Chambers St exit from the A Line (exits to Murray and Warren and Chambers St.)
From the A platform, the only exit open is the far North exit to what was a part-time booth which I am guessing is operating full-time for the duration.
Ideally, both Park Place and WTC (E) would be open, but with access only to the A/C platform (and from there to the north exit). That would allow passengers to transfer directly between the 1/2 and the E. The transfer between the 1/2 and the A/C is available one stop away, but it's a slightly longer walk there.
But what's wrong with giving access to Broadway? Broadway is open to pedestrians at Park Place -- I was just there last Sunday, walking past the closed City Hall and Park Place entrances. (Actually, I was on the east side of Broadway, and I'm not sure if the west side was open. Even if it wasn't, passengers exiting from Park Place could be shoehorned directly to and across Broadway.)
I dont know why Park Place is still closed. All I know is what was stated here.
On the subject of speed, lets talk the Rockaway A-line south of the Howard Beach Station. I have seen signs that said 35mph south of the station to the first Jamaica Bay Crossing. (By the way the A-train seems to ride on air, thanks to the installation of new tracks, in spring 2001. Anyway after the A crosses the fist bridge south to Broad Channel and the Rockaways, does any one know if the A thake advatage of the new tracks and go's behond 35mph on the strait way to Broad Channel? Also what is the speed for limit for crossing these bridges?
A trains reach an average top speed of 45 mph on the Rockaway flats.
The speed limit on the North Channel Bridge is 25 mph. The South Channel Bridge is also normally set for 25 mph, but due to renovation work being performed on the Bridge, it has a temporary 10 mph speed limit.
Forgive me if postings have already occurred about this topic, but has anyone noticed how the post-Sept. 11 subway route changes mirror old service patterns on the NYC subway system? Some examples:
#1 to New Lots: Until the major Broadway IRT restructuring in 1959, #1 Broadway express trains ran local from 242 to 96, express to Chambers, then local to New Lots.
Q to Forest Hills: When the 60th Street Tunnel connection to Queens Blvd. opened in 1955, the first BMT route to go to Queens was the Brighton Local, today's Q train.
W to Astoria full time: This was a BMT pattern for many years in the 1960's prior to Chrystie St, when West End expresses used Astoria as their north terminal.
No direct service to Sea Beach and 4th Ave. Lines from Midtown; served only from Nassau St. Loop: This pattern is really ancient; prior to the 1915 opening of Manhattan Bridge subway service, all BRT/BMT services from South Brooklyn crossed the Brooklyn Bridge and terminated at Park Row Terminal. Anyone who wanted to go to midtown had to transfer to an IRT subway or el, or take a Third Ave. Railway trolley. Today a passenger on a J or M train from South Brooklyn can transfer to the IRT at Brooklyn Bridge, directly under the old BRT el terminal site.
If I recall correctly the BMT history on this site, the 4th Ave subway opening was coincident with the Broadway line opening. Similarly, the Sea Beach connection occurred at the same time. Neither of these lines went over the Brooklyn Bridge.
On the other hand, the Culver connected with the 5th Ave El, and the West End could have as well, which went over the BB. Similarly, the Brighton connected via (today's) Franklin shuttle and thence to the Fulton St line to the bridge.
The Brighton local (QT) that went to 71 Av-FH went through the Monatague St tunnel. Today's Circle Q is a combination of the QT (in that it goes to FH) and the QB (a Brighton/Broadway local going over the bridge).
But it is true: The Q (today's Diamond Q) and T (today's W) ride again!
You're right about the 4th Ave. and Sea Beach routes. Prior to the Manhattan Bridge subway, people travelling from those areas used the old el routes that crossed the Brooklyn Bridge. From the 4th Avenue area, the old 5th Ave-39th St-3rd Ave. el combination went as far south as 65th Street. Sea Beach cars were normally coupled to West End or 5th Ave. trains, disconnected at an intermediate point (as example Bath Junction, today's 62d St/New Utrecht intersection), and then ran to Coney Island. My point is that people from those neighborhoods only had a one seat ride to Lower Manhattan, and today the same situation applies. Of course, prior to 1915 these Southern Brooklyn areas were semi-rural, not built up as they are today.
Well sources are coming out that there is a 90+% chance of another terrorist attack on/ in the United States. Its a matter of when, there is a high probablity that a Transit System might be a huge target.
Will the MTA and other Trasit Systems around the United States take precautious, and study tapes from the Tokyo Subway Station Nerve Gas Attack?
If precautions are taken, what types will be? The New York City Subway System was shutdown for several hours when the events on 9-11 took place, a chemical attack on the subways can shutdown the subway system for a day or two.
Has the New York City Transit System talked about this possiblity on an extremely serious note?
I would imagine that the NYCTA is taking the threat of another terrorists attack seriously.
On Monday, I was on a s/b Q going from Queens to Manhattan. Naturally, I was railfanning. At Queens Plaza two plainclothes cops got on the train. They knocked on the T/O's door, and asked him to go a little slower. As we rode from QP to Lex, the two officers were using their flashlights as if they were looking for anything unusal along the tracks or.
Once we merged with the 60th tunnel, we went at a normal speed.
Another thing I've noticed, and I know some of you T/O's can verify this, is that at 59th/Lexington on the Q/W lines, there is always a police presence at the eastern end of the platform, right at the beginning of those long escalators.
I thought it had something to do with the high speed, and strong wind created by s/b trains coming into the station. It would probably spread any kind of germ warfare much faster this way, as I once read.
There is also now an ongoing police presence at the eastbound end of 53rd/Lex. Apparently guarding the tunnel entrance.
CG
ditto for Manhattan bound 8th Ave IND at High Street. Usually two officers.
And the north side of the nbound platform at 125th and Lex.
You guys are dreaming.......the best security and safety of the system is in your hands. TA assigned officers can only do so much beyond their tours requirements....the property protection personell are still dancing 'the MTA Shuffle.' Peter
Same thing at Ely and 23rd St. at the southbound end of the southbound platform.
has anything been noticed by the Steinway tubes?
avid
There has been at least one police officer at the 3rd Ave end of the 7 platforms at Grand Central (I work directly above it, in the building across from the Chrysler Building) for the last few days or so...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
What realistic precautions can be taken? None.
If anyone thinks about it logically, the transit system in NYC, and most transit systems in general, are 100% vulnerable.
First, biological and chemical weapons. Both of them can be released inconspicuously, and biological weapons have the added bonus of being able to spread itself from victim to victim. Unless they start giving each cop air sensoring equipment, or the terrorists start making themselves obvious (or we start implementing one hour lines for security checks at all turnstiles), there's not much that can be done.
Now, explosive devices are a little different. They are generally either a) too weak to do excessive damage, b) too large to be carried inconspicuously, c) nuclear. Now don't get me wrong, by too weak to do excessive damage, I don't mean that everyone in the subway car will survive, but the tunnel won't be collapsing. And nuclear, well, lets not even go there.
Many of the biologicals are very hard to make and then store/release. For example, with Anthrax you not only need to grow it, but you need to grow a deadly strain and then you need to get the deadly strain to grow spores and then you need like pounds and pounds of it.
For the cost of one anthrax attack you can like send 100 backpack bombers into the NYCS for a co-ordinated mass attack. that is what i would look for. A co-ordinated attack at transportation infrastructure. The main point will be to not kill people, but to basically fuck up the economy that is dependant on the transportation system. Even after the damage is cleared you'd have all these new security measures to deal with that would could billions and billions down the road and make travel take far far longer.
Supermarket cleaning aids are still available to do harm but exotic materiels have limited range........just pull out the carbody airconditioning filters to see what you're sucking in throughout the entire system. Peter
Because the 1 line is now a wreck, has the MTA given any thought to restarting the old Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle train? Or possibly send the #5 train there? (First five cars only)
NYCT's not going to either put back the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle or start running Lexington Avenue service to South Ferry. This was a hot-button issue on Subtalk a week or two back.
David
Why? South Ferry is very close to Bowling Green. Can you also imagine the logjam of people who must xfer from the shuttle to 4 or 5 at this station? Isn't worth the trouble.
Why doesthe MTA have to wait for the N and R to go back into service so the V can premier?
Uh...I don't think they are waiting for it. The N and R will be out of service for months. The V is only being delayed a few weeks.
:-) Andrew
"The V is only being delayed a few week"
I guess this means that we will be seeing them around Thanksgiving.
But, what affect does suspending NR service have on the V service that supposed to be in effect on Nov 11? I don't understand
Basically, what TA can do is to cut back the Q to 57th Street and Replacing R with V in Queens instead of Q. This will make it easier for the riders who usually tranfer between R and F for local stations in Queens.
There's no sense in confusing people by throwing in a new V service while people are already confused by routes not going where they're supposed to go or not running at all. The sense is that it's better to wait until N and R service is restored before throwing Queens Boulevard service up in the air (so to speak).
David
The bright side of this is, for a longer period of time, when going to college I'll have an "avoiding line" to Brooklyn (the G of course).
R-142s 6561-65 are presently making their way to the Maintenance Shop at East 180th St. This is a late delivery in progress as of 12:15AM.
-Stef
I keep reading that their was a r62a lost in the wtc incident, What were the car numbers? Just curios!
Got me wondering, too.
Odds, it came from the 1/9 lines..
Was it one car? or one trainset?
Well, lets think about this... We've seen photos of Cortlandt St. 1/9-- it's not in there. So where else might it be? South of Cortlandt between there and South Ferry? So pull it out via the loop into Bowling Green! I think it's a safe bet there are no trains "stuck" anywhere south of WTC/Cortlandt St.
I saw an R-62 or an R-62A on a dream last night, and i did not know
about it till now. Strange ain't it?.
there are no lost R-62a's. if there were, you would've heard about it on the news.
I heard that there was people trapped in the stations around the WTC,but I don't think a train was in any of those trunnels
There is definitely a PATH train left behind in the WTC. I suppose it will be at least 2 years before they pull it out, or scrap it on the spot.
If there was a train lost down there, I'm confident that the news media would have told us about it when they showed us the pictures of the damage.
There are no PATH trains lost, due to promp actions of PATH employees, including a PATH Trainmaster who has been considered as a hero of Sept. 11 due to his quick action.
Dan, there was one empty PATH train abandoned at WTC. It is my understanding (from news reports) that the train is damaged but not destroyed and that, once the tunnel is passable, it should be possible to tow the train out using a MOW diesel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That empty train was deliberately left behind. It was well described in a news article when some searchers went down there. It was marked "out of service". I suppose the last rescue train could have coupled to it and gone out as a 16 car train, but that extra few minutes could have placed them in danger.
If this attack had taken place before the bridge swap there would be NO direct Brooklyn-Broadway service. Imagine that? Tunnel is clogged and bridge isn't functioning. And 3 trains is capacity for the North tracks so you can't send an N up there. There is no Rutgers-DeKalb connection which would've been invaluable if the attack took place before July 22. They have to build that connection no matter what. It could be meaningful in the future especially as population goes up.
I wonder if they can still re-extend the Nassau "Loop" stub tracks north of Chmabers loop onto the bridge anymore.
Can you imagine the kind of chaos an at-grade crossing would cause at a place like the Manhattan Bridge?
I don't know if the bridge could handle the extra trains even if both sides were complete.
Clockwise wouldn't be as bad as counter-clockwise.
Bridge swap was well timed, don't you think?
Yes, almost TOO well timed, if you see what I'm saying....
well, it was about time someone made up a crackpot conspiracy theory about the MTA in this, I'm just sorry it had to be me.
this post is a joke guys.
Oh, there was a guy here "subway-crash-something" who had misc. conspiracy theories about MTA.
Arti
Alright, last time I was there was about 2 weeks ago or last week, my high-qual memory can't remember. But on the uptown express track when I was there, there was a 5 car set of cars from Van Cortlandt yard...I forgot the numbers, I will now carry a pen with me. No one was in it, lights were out, and due to the low amount of 3 trains on the 7th ave express, they were dealing perfectly with terminating on the S/B express track only. What was that 5 car set doing?
That 5 Car set was used as an Office train for the ATD. Now that they build at Dispatchers office on the North end of the Southbound Platform that train is no longer there.
I guess you beat me to the punch by a minute or so.....
Yeah by about 54 Seconds.
The car #'s are 2346-50. They were being used as a temporary dispatcher office/crew room while a dispatchers office was being built. Now that the dispatchers office is in use at north end of the southbound platform, they are no longer needed over there.
I have to say it, but we need more Aggressive T/O's especially on the D line! I get 1 Aggressive Driver per week and it saves me 5 minutes. I hate the T/O's which are conservative going below speed limit to aviod getting tripped. I love the T/O's that go at the Speed Limit and hit the timer at the mark! We need more drivers like this. The T/O's I know all drive Aggressively, and when I ride with them they go at least 2 miles below the speed limit. One time my friend hit the Timer on the Mark. The 4 line has the Aggressive drivers and so does the A, they need to spread the joy to other lines.
i only got 2 words to say. AMEN REVEREND!!!!
lol it be too many SLOW Motormen. And call me sexist if u want to but they not all men............
You can't blame a T/O for not changeing timers. All you need is one wrong move and the Train Operator will spend time down in Labor Relations. I like my dad's idea of working behind the timers and giveing then a chance to clear before wraping it around to the allowable posted speed.
The glory days are over. We've all watched in anger as the subways have gotten slower and slower. I'm starting to feel like I'm on that little train that circles Disneyland.
But you have to understand, the T/O's can't afford to be aggressive. These are people with homes, families, bills, etc.... They're working to make a living, not to give a hard-on to some buff standing at the railfan window.
Over the years, you'll start to notice that it takes longer to commute by subway than before.
Just today, I entered 67th Ave. s/b. I has just missed a Q. Next one came in about 10 mins. But it didn't stop. It just kept going. Finally, another Q came in about 5 or 6 mins. Since the previous train didn't make local stops, my train was packed when it came. We got to Roosevelt, and an F crossed over to the local track. We crawled behind that F train all the way to 36th Ave. As we passed the express tracks between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza, track workers, signal maintainers, and assorted TA personnel were clearly hard at work down there.
Total travel time from 67th Ave. to 72nd/5th Ave.?? 75 minutes including a 10 min walk from my house to 67th Ave. and 7 minute walk from 68th/Lex to 72nd/5th Ave.
The MTA is totally the opposite is was years ago. Instead of being too lax about safety, they are now obsessed with it. Alot of this, especially the recent GT's and WD's added onto the system are a result of several accidents. I have a feeling that trains were faster over bridges, before that horrible Williamsburg bridge rear end incident. But I don't know for sure (was the Manny B as slow back in the 1980s?). There is a fine balance that has to be struck, enforcing restrictions but allowing the system to perform at it's best.
Williamsburg was always slow. Some of the T/O's on this site can probably tell you exactly how many minutes it took them to cross the bridge.
I'm all for safety. But in some cases, I think the TA has gone too far.
Example:
7 line
Queensboro Plaza
s/b leaving station trains used to fly, now they crawl.
Yeah those timers right after the curve are pain. In order for them to clear you have to come to a stop then proceed. The one before Court Square is also pretty tricky. Even the most agressive T/O's on the 7 are careful with the timers around Queensboro plaza.
I think that the MTA should have made the following changes instead of what they did:
J: As MTA has it.
M: Metropolitan to CI via Nassau - Tunnel - 4 Av Local - West End except nights when they run as far as Myrtle Avenue.
N: Ditmars to CI via B'way - Bridge - 4 Av Exp - Sea Beach
R & W: Nightly shuttles between 36 St and 95/CI. Replaced by J and M at other times.
What do you think?
Certainly the plan "R36 #9346" proposed is workable, but it doesn't seem to me to be any more or less workable than the plan that's running now. What are the advantages of this plan over the one that's now in operation?
David
There is no point to that. Matter-of-fact, it's kind of worse.
The Sea Beach peak hour ridership is a bit lower than the West End ridership. Therefore, 8 cars on the M Sea Beach, and 10 cars on the W West End.
I think that such lists should be in every cab. It would be easier for T/O's and C/R's to change the signs according to G/O's and other diversions.
There are hundreds of readings. Where in the cab would they go?
David
Probably in the form of a booklet, arranged by line and sorted alphabetically by destination. The booklet would hang from a chain attached to the wall near the ODK.
Nice idea. I wonder how long the book would last there before it was removed or became damaged.
David
Or outdated. In Baltimore, the bus side used to have a book - that was never updated regularly, and even kept many of the outdated codes in the reprints.
Today, there's no system book, a booklet is available for each operating division, prepared by the divisional staff. There's a booklet for Kirk, Eastern, Bush & Northwest Divisions.
The Rail side has two - one for the Subway (AKA Metro) and one for the Light Rail. Extensive updating is not needed as rail doesn't change much.
There are, at present count, over 1,040 codes. Doesn't it make sense for the correct code(s) to be included in the G.O. or posted at the terminals?
There are, at present count, over 1,040 codes.
That's an unusual number. I'd have expected the capacity to be a power of two like 1024 or 2048.
Is a code used for each of route letter/no, start terminal, end terminal, or is it a single code for the whole combination? I thought it was the latter, which is one reason it wouldn't be a power-of-2 number. Also, typical practice when designing those types of signs is to use variable-length fields, not fixed-length. So the total capacity would be "X characters", not "X messages". I don't know if that is the way these units work, though.
I'd have expected the capacity to be a power of two like 1024 or 2048.
Yeah, if the limiting factor is the size of the index table, but
instead the limit is probably the size of the string table stored
in EEPROM.
The 1,040 messages is the number of messages that are currently programmed into each SCU. It has nothing to do with the overall capacity of the EPROM capacity on the memory boards. It just happened that there are 1,040 two or three line messages programmed into the system at the present time. I'm quite sure the capacity is significantly larger.
Speaking of such, I've noticed that the southbound R46 (E) trains now display only "Eighth Ave". Perhaps they don't have "Eighth Ave Local/To Canal St" in there, or perhaps they can't find it.
:-) Andrew
I guess the reading "Canal St" is only a BMT reading. It appears on the south terminal roll on R32's, but with R32's so rare on the E these days, who knows when you'll find one.
There isn't one. But there is "E Canal St. Broadway Line". At least One train I saw used this. There are also readings for every subway station where the 44/46's can run, without line. Plain "Canal St." was used on a few trains as well
There is a "cheat sheat" of common cab codes in every R-44/46 cab, but it is only for lines (and minor variations of lines) that regularly run R-44/46s.
Do any of our MTA-employed SubTalkers have the schedules for the E to/from 179th St. once the F is switched to 63rd? If anyone has them, I'd much appreciate it if you could either post them here or email them to me at danilm@juno.com.
Thanks!
Dan
i received it in the mail last night. if anybody wants to see it send me your e-mails and i will send it out.
I'd like to. danilm@juno.com Is this a final proposal? From who?
Dan
i sent it. i don't know if it is a hoax or not but it looks ligit.
hit me up at ps21@ignmail.com
r142man
2 all the way
Click on my name and you'll see
i can't because this computer is giving me problems
When your computer's acting right again I'm at Srberus2001@aol.com
Serberus2001@aol.com
I would love to see it
Midnight.Dragon7@verizon.net
Please send it as an attachment.
Please send it to me at: jcxp15@hotmail.com
Sure, I'd like to see it.
gregnorthcott@home.com
Give me a light KHI, just click my name & send it to me. I would like to see a new design of WTC.
Peace
David Justiniano
I hope it's not the one in the shape of a hand with the middle finger extended - If not, then I'd like a copy, too.
Send me the idea at kimpeter@optonline.net.
I really am interested. By the way, where did the idea come from?
Railfan Pete.
What is it, the one that looks like NYC is giving the finger to them camel jockeys?
with two plane going through it?
listen i will send it you to everyone who request it. i don't even know if it is a hoax or not. if it is i don't get it at all and it isn't funny.
I want to see it. Click on my name, and you'll get my email address.
I already received one with the 2 planes going through it. It might be the same picture. The moment I saw it I let it all out. It's sickening. I'm glad there are much more anti-Osama sites out there to counter this.
There's a Dutch site with allthese hoax pictures...the one with the openings at the top and the aircraft going through the openings has a header of "Mexican Architect designs new WTC".
Things like this go to show there are a lot of sick people out there, and a lot of people with a lot of time on their hands. It's too bad they couldn't put their talents to some decent use other thanmaking fun of this horrible tragedy.
http://www.shmoozenet.com/yudel/art/flippinTheWtc.jpg
This one gets a "hand". Not an official design, but not a bad idea, either.
me too
klatsky@prodigy.net
please, thanks in advance crazy10seven@msn.com
Yes, into a green color, very nice, if you want to see it go to the Bedford Park Station on the 4 and walk south you will see it. Its painted real well, no sign of the rust or open holes. Its real nice, alot of people will be pleased.
Every NYCT elevated structure gets repainted every few years, for aesthetic reasons as well as (more importantly) to prevent rust.
David
It would be nice if the L structures in Chicago were painted that frequently. Sometimes it seems like they go 15 years or more between paintings. They get pretty rusty in between.
-- Ed Sachs
Don't fret. Soon, NYC's el structures will also be repainted every 15 years, if at all.
On the A-line in Queens from 80th st. (Hudson) station to the 88th st. (Boyd) station was painted earlt this year. Why didnt they paint the whole entire el to Lefferts, like years ago?
When are they going to repaint the New Lots Avenue el(1)?
I assume both services are running through to south Brooklyn during the day on weekends. I thought it would be fun to run it from Essex Street-south, but not if the trains are deserted, as the J to Chambers normally would be.
Anybody know what the loading factors have been ?
The M has seen ridership at least double in my opinion ,Go to and from fulton the train always seems more crowded than it used to be.
The loads from lower manhattan to Dekalb have been very light, even during rush hour. I know because since the change I've been getting on the J's at Brooklyn Bridge/Chambers to get a seat, and the trains are nearly empty (4-5 people per car at 5:30 PM on a weekday). Once they get into Brooklyn, namely Dekalb/Pacific Avenues, they get packed.
I would assume it would be even lighter on the weekends in that area, but it's not a waste if the trains will become full anyway.
What was the past service (this site says the last revenue service was 1967) that used to use the connection from the Nassau line to the IND 6th Ave line between 2nd & broad/Lafayette?
I have never heard of this connection before so I took a look at the track maps and Downtown Manhattan Big is broken. But anyways... I don't see how Queens bound J/M/Zs can get on the 6th avenue connector. Or is it just that they're not supposed to? Also, where did the train go that used that connector? It would take the Williamsburg over to Brooklyn, then what?
Believe you're talking about a connection between the BMT just south of Essex Street and the Chrystie Street tunnel. It was constructed as part of the Chrystie Street connection in the 1960's. This allows trains crossing the Williamsburgh Bridge to proceed north on the IND 6th Ave. route. After Essex Street the trains take a right onto Chrystie and proceed to the Houston Street IND tunnel, next stop being Broadway Lafayette. The KK service used this route from 1968 to 1976 - it has since then only been used for non-revenue equipment moves and some special revenue moves in emergencies.
The weekend M service is split into two sections:
1) Coney Island to Pacific St. via Sea Beach.
2) Broadway-Myrtle to Metropolitan. At one time this was dubbed the Metro Mytrle Mugger Mover:-)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Then it's just the J running though. How safe is it on a weekend ? I haven't ridden a QJ or an M in 30 years, so I'm paranoid.
Are you sure? On September 30 I boarded an M at Fulton. Is this a recent change? It does away with a few potentially useful transfers.
MTA website says M operates to Manhattan at all times. What gives?
Only the first weekend it didn't, because the crew office didn't have enough time to adequately staff it, I heard.
I've been taking advantage of the one seat ride to Seneca, both in early morning rides and returning home in the afternoon, as both days this weekend, Ihd the WTC switching (Canal platform) job.
About one or two people per car around 5:30 AM.
In the afternoon, there are some Chinese, and some people, apparently coming from the southern div., who get off in Manhattan. And a few others heading for Bushwick and Ridgewood. One car in each train will have a fair amount of people, just like when it was a shuttle.
I wish the people in this area would take advantage of this, but many seem to be fixed to cars, the L line, or just staying in the neighborhood. Many probably don't even know about it. Some still just use the M to reach the Jamaica bound J at Myrtle (that's what they should be using the L for).
The first weekend after the attack, there was a suspension of W service for a GO, so N trains ran to Astoria and Ms were shuttles. The following weekend, weekend W crews were assigned to the M, which ran in split service - Stillwell to Pacific (staffed by W crews) and Met to Myrtle (staffed by M crews). This was supposedly due to the fact that Scheduling had not had sufficient time to write a weekend supplement to account for all the service changes. For the last two weekends ( and I assume into the future) M service has been running from Stillwell to Metropolitan using M, W and N crews, while the W has been running to Astoria using N crews and extra crews.
Correction; the above pattern was for only the first (9/22-24) weeekend, due to a G.O. They are at this writing all passing through.
Actually, there was a problem today on the Willy B that stopped a J at 36, they told all the passengers to get off. They also repeated the message over the loud speaker a million times. This was only probably for a short time today though because on my way home, I got a M at Chambers.
An oversized truck was on the WillyB, hit the overpass, chunks of the roof came off, hitting his trains' undercarriage disabling it.
I'm surprised he didn't mention it here. I was about 5 trains behind him and was turned back at Essex St.
I didn't know Zman operated on the Eastern Division. It's not the fastest divsion, nor do I use it much (railfanned it more often than used it), it holds a soecial place in my heart- I'm still POed at the loss of the far end of the El, (even though that happend in my childhood), and the divsion seems kind of a stepchild. I kind of root for the underdog.
I operate everywhere in the IND/BMT, but especially on the J/L/M lines. At least until the beginning of the new pick.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS EVENING
October 6, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
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PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST
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there are now maps dated 10/5/01 on the MTA web site.
Are there any noticable changes from the previous (10/1 I think) map?
Pleaase re-read my post. I statedL
1- the latest printed map is a one page (like the first 9/1//01 map) with no railroad info and list of services.
2- I also stated since the 10/1/01 map does not show Chambers on the A as being open , I expect another map to be issued and used the date of 10/5/01 since there is a web version of a 10/5/01 map.
In pg 81 of James Greller's NYC Subway Cars book you see R26s #7773-7760 coupled together @ East Tremont Avenue Station after its Redbird treatment coming fresh from the GOH and they are mismatched. MY question is that where there any R26 thru 42 mismatched after the General Overhaul? If so how long did it lasted.
After general overhauls, R-26/28 cars had their H2 drawheads removed and replaced with link bars. The R33-36 cars were delivered with link bars, preventing them from being mismatched by yard moves, which in the old days, anything that could fit was made to work. Now, only CED has the capability of separating "married pairs", so they are unlikely to become "bastard pairs", because of permanant linking.
The R-26/28s (Iwas told) were re-mated permanently at the time the SMS went into effect onm September 30, 1991.
The GE R-30s were mismated after GOH as well and never were numerically gathered.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I overheard the T/O of an F train tell a passenger at Roosevelt that every day there are seven F trains which go into the 63rd Street Tunnel. Does anyone know, specifically, which F trains go into the 63rd Street Tunnel during the morning rush?
It has been a little over a month since I have started school and the work is increasing. I have much less time to talk with you guys here on SubTalk.
That's why I have proposed a plan for you all to e-mail me your responses to my posts when available. Due to the amount of work, I will only be available here on a limited basis on Saturdays.
I'll be missing out on responding to various posts here. In fact, pretty soon, I won't be here at all due to College Entrance forms and my attendance in College. I'll inform you about my status, and now I think it's a good time for those people who rot against me to rot against me. : (
Well, I have my priorities and I'm sure when each and every SubTalker attended high school they did too. I don't consider it a loss to lose time here in SubTalk, but I will be concentrating on my future and on my decisions. Then when I have a job and such I will have lots of time to be here in the years to come.
I request some questions about my travel experiences be answered before I leave (this won't happen overnight or in a week.)
Thank you for all of you knowledgeable SubTalkers for contributing to my posts and answering my questions. You were most helpful. Thank you David Pirmann for managing this site for our purpose! I have enjoyed it very much and have experienced many things dealing with public transit in the New England area.
Once again, please e-mail me your responses to my postings here. It looks like I won't post a lot, so it shouldn't be a life-threatening deal. Of course, this does not include postings right here on SubTalk. Trivial info you can post here.
: )
Railfan Pete
I'm in the same situation, but so far I've had enough time to read + post here. That'll probably change soon though.
Aww, c'mon you two. High school is nothing. I'm getting my ass pounded like a prisoner on Oz here in college, but I still have half an hour or so to read the messages every day.
How do I get on Sub Talk live?
Point your browser to www.subtalklive.com
Thanks, it's not working. Apparently it's not compatable with web tv.
www.subtalklive.com
I went there twice, but no one is there.
Sorry there is no formal announcement but SubTalk Live has commenced. If you need to see the chat policies, please refer to an earlier invite, posted on the board.
OK, how do I go on it?
From WMATA Press Releases:
The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (Metro) began removing its trash and recycling bins from within its Metrorail stations on Friday in an effort to improve security measures. By Tuesday morning, commuters will see that the trash and recycling bins have been removed from the areas between Metrorail fare gates and station platforms. Trash and recycle bins will remain outside the fare gate areas.
Since the September terrorist attacks, Metro officials have been taking extra security precautions to help ensure customer and employee safety. The removal of the trash and recycling bins is being undertaken to eliminate the bins as a possible location for someone to leave a package or device that may cause harm.
"This action is another way that we are taking our already safe transit system and making it even safer," said Metro Transit Police Chief Barry McDevitt. "We have instituted additional safety precautions since September 11. Some of those additional precautions are easily recognizable such as increased visibility of our uniformed officers and our K-9 units; the recent distribution of a "Dear Fellow Rider" letter; and the shift of our Pentagon bus bay area to Pentagon City. Other precautions and security enhancements are not as visible, and are designed to be that way. In this case, the removal of trash and recycle bins is a noticeable change."
"We are taking this action to increase security with an eye toward the safety of our customers," Metro General Manager Richard A. White said. "I hope that customers understand and will do their part and pitch in by not leaving their trash in the stations or rail cars.
"Additionally, we continue to ask our customers to be our partners in keeping the system safe," he said. "We ask that customers report any suspicious package or activity to a Metro employee or police officer, and we ask that they show their patriotism by helping us keep our transit system safe and secure."
Good, so now the platforms will be littered with gum!
No no, That's a new security precaution. Terrorists will find themselves immobilized by thick layer of gum on the platforms.
Metro General Manager Richard A. White said. "I hope that customers understand and will do their part and pitch in by not leaving their trash in the stations or rail cars.
Wanna bet??
All kidding aside, I don't think they had any other choice given the current situation.
London Underground and the various rail stations removed theirs yaers ago. They are constantly getting security alerts, evacuations, & service stoppages.
>>> I don't think they had any other choice given the current situation. <<<
That is a bunch of crap. This is nothing but knee jerk security. They have moved the trash bins and recycling bins to just outside the fare gates. At least now potential bombers will no longer have to pay a fare to leave a bomb in one of the receptacles. Perhaps these receptacles are no longer under the observation of closed circuit TV either. A bomb going off right outside of fare control at rush hour would be effective in creating terror, but the bureaucrats could at least say it did not happen in space we control.
A better solution would be containers which were made of clear plastic bags supported on a frame so the contents would be visible, and enough surveillance by TV and in person to see anyone putting something suspicious in one of the bags.
Tom
well said
Because you can't watch 100% of the trash cans 100% of the time, a better solution would be to have trash cans made of inch thick steel plates and a small hole on the top for can sized pieces of trash (maybe slits on the recycling bins). This way no terrorist would be able to slip in a bomb big enough to actually explode the trach recepticle.
>>> This way no terrorist would be able to slip in a bomb big enough to actually explode the trach recepticle. <<<
I guess you haven't seen what a letter bomb can do, or how plastique (C-4) can be molded. I was not suggesting just watching trash receptacles. Anyone entering a station with a wrapped package might get more than normal scrutiny, and if he/she deposits it in a waste can, it would call for further action such as detaining the person.
Tom
I discovered all the trash cans missing at Grosvenor on Friday and I had to utilize one on the mezzanine level but inside the faregates. The station was very clean. I don't think clenliness should be too big an issue.
Because WMATA stations never put newstands, drink dispensers, candy machines and food vendors inside their fare control areas the way New York did when the subway was first built, the trash problem has never been as big a concern in D.C. as it has been in New York. Plus the subway version of the "broken window" theory also applies here: So long as there is no trash on the platforms and in the cars of Metro, people won't think it's OK to add more trash to the platforms and cars. But if a few people start dumping their stuff in those areas now that the trash cans have been removed and nothing is done about it, the problem will get worse.
tTrash in WMATA stations will now get tossed in the vacant area behind the platform before the wall.
we ask that they show their patriotism by helping us keep our transit system safe and secure.
More like they should show their patriotism by helping keep the system CLEAN.
Yeah... more of this "let's remove trash cans" nonsense that Railtrack started in Britain in the late 1990s. *sigh* Someone go out and take a pic of the RoW now -- I bet you 2 years down the line, you wouldn't be able to walk the track without stepping on a coffee cup or a plastic bag.
Still, they gotta do what they gotta do. They at least gotta be seen to be doing soummit.
Lexcie
anyways i was out and saw 7506-7510 at unionport
also 6715-6720 is thier to.also saw a five car set a concourse tonight
there was also 6500-6491 and 6391-6400 and 6390-6381 where at the concourse it .
r142man
2 all the way
until then
Will the R-142s that are stored in the Concourse yard be used on the #4 line?
#3 West End Jeff
no. they have no where to put them right now.preparing to start testing.
r142man
2 seventh avenue express
until then
what are the ratios now? Both the 2 and 6 lines must be well over 50% R142/R142A, right?
well for the the 2 is about 240 r142s on the 2 line and then some
well for the the 6 is about 290 r142a subway cars.
i would say that the 6 is about 75% complete.they only have 8 r29s and about 10 r62as left
the 2 is unpredictatble with one day you can have about 32 trains running and only 5 redbirds are running and about 28 r142s.the next day theres a truck load of redbirds and only about 15 r142s.so until the 2 has 6301-6720 all in service, expect that pattern on the 2
until then
The r142man
Seventh Avenve Express Line
Shaved Minutes and Frayed Nerves in the [HBLR's] New Morning Rush
... Merrill Lynch, Deutsche Bank, Morgan Stanley, American Express and Lehman Brothers have opened
replacement offices here, and ridership on the practically brand- new, still-unfinished trolley system, the
Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, has doubled. About 5,000 new riders appeared overnight. ...
NYTimes article
And where the heck is the HBLR extension to Hoboken? They should get cracking on that ASAP.
wayne
Why is the W always being diverted onto the Sea Beach? I was going into Manhattan yesterday and there were many Ws coming on Sea Beach going Coney Island bound. This seems to happen every weekend. Sometimes the W runs on the express tracks and others, it's a local.
Let's say the N was still running. The W goes from CI to Pacific... BUT, there's diversions that make the W run on Sea Beach in both directions. Is that really service for West End riders? (yes, it's happened before) I understand now, that whatever they do, there must be W service because the people in Queens need service. That's not like South Brooklyn where you ccan just take a bus to another train if one's out, or in many cases you can walk to the other line.
When the W first came to West End, there were no problems and it stuck to it's route. The B left West End, and now the W seems to want to as well. Do they all hate the West End that much?!
A signal system replacement project is underway on the West End Line. Occasionally it necessitates rerouting trains in one direction or the other. When that happens, trains run one way via West End, and the other way via Sea Beach.
David
My bet is that the TA is trying to honor Sea Beach Fred and making sure that there's extra trains on his line in order to appease him. :)
You do, eh Selkirk???? Well if they really want to honor me, they could run the W on the local tracks and make the M an express in Brooklyn, or at least express part of the way. You are right about one thing, though. I like it when my Sea Beach gets some real publicity, but when all the dust settles I long for the day when the Sea Beach is an express and goes over the bridge and enters a newly refurbished Stillwell Avenue. Better yet, have President Bush designate the New York Subway an historical landmark and make the Sea Beach the signature line of the system and pour money and material to fix up all the stations and make it the showplace of the New York Transit Company. While I'm hallucinating, perhaps a small statue of Sea Beach Fred on the front of the first of those mini-tunnels at New Utrecht could be done to really honor me. Boy do I or don't I have a vivid imagination? No I'm not on something. Take care my friend.
Wowsers ... can you pass that doobie over this way? Must be some really good stuff yer smokin'. Heh. At this point though, we all need to be grateful that things are running as well as they are given the realities. Not to demean the cops or the firemen in ANY way, but the TA guys are getting the short end of the stick for all they've done along with the Con Ed and Verizon guys to get NYC back on a footing as quickly and faithfully as all have done here.
Now about that doobie ... heh.
YOU ARE WEIRD, you are lucky that the Slow Boat runs past 59th St at all. and why woudl Bush pick the Sea Beach as a National Historical Line. Nobody voted for him in the city especially in Brooklyn, and the only reason he paid attention to NYC was because of 9/11. Get real old man, the dementia is reaally settling in, Poor Linda
Slow Boat?
Now that's funny.
Bush will pick the Sea Beach because I will convince him that is what he should do. As far as the weird thing is concerned, well there is something to that. But it was entertaining wasn't it?
I don t think Bush has ever been to Brooklyn, let alone Coney island, Demo Country especially Schumerland
Schumerland, eh? I wouldn't brag about it. He is a first class nerd.
Both he and Hilliary have done a lot in Congress in Getting Money for NYC, and I met him last year at the Madison HS reunion, a real nice guy and friendly, even though I was a non resident of NYC
I can't speak for the West End but the very fact that a West End train, whether it be a B or a W or what, riding onthe Sea Beach tracks really gets my goat. On the express tracks to boot. I'd like to see a Sea Beach train on the Sea Beach Express tracks for a change. The West End is a good line so I cannot see why W's are being diverted from it onto the Sea Beach tracks unless those tracks and that line is so popular everyone wants a piece of it. I'd like to believe that but from the TA has been doing to my line I don't think that's the case. I'll keep on reading on this. Maybe Train Dude or someone else who works for the TA can fill in the details.
Fred, like David said, the reroutes are caused by a signal system upgrade. However, the Ws are not running on the express track, but are making local stops when they do this.
... not always... remember early (winter, spring) this year?
Since I've been working in the B Division only since mid-July (I'm an A Div transplant), I don't remember that far back. Since July, I have gone express on the northbound Sea Beach ONCE (that's one day, 5 trips). Every other time, it has been local.
When did the R-143 trainset arrive? That's presumably when the express track became unavailable. Certainly, through mid-summer or so, I had ridden many a B (and W?) train on the Sea Beach express tracks.
The N (or M) running on the West End is a rare occurrence, but when it happens it seems to usually go express. It was supposed to happen last weekend but the reroute was swapped (W via M instead of M via W) with no notice to the public.
Last night, I was coming back from a conference in White Plains when I saw the 10:00 (from Brewster North, IDK when it left there) pull in. Upon highballing it to the platform, I realized it was an express, the next stop being 125th. I hesitated for a minute, thinking to take the 10:08 (from NWP, a local that gets me to Fordham in over a half an hour), but instead hopped aboard the head motor, 8115. The run was an a**-kicker, but when we got to just north of Melrose, I heard all the brakes go IE. The conductor's report: we hit a patch of weed that grew from the trackbed, which affected the braking system as we passed over it, causing "overspeed." My question is: can weeds do that to trains?
Nooooooo, I was growing there!
:-)
Shoulda said weeds, not weed. hehehehe
Never know, coulda been a patch of weed.....
The opening paragraphs from his Sunday column in the San Francisco Chronicle. The Daily News usually runs Matthews on about a day or two delay, so it will be interesting to see if they notice this mistake:
New York -- The "J" train headed uptown in silence. The only sound on the crowded Manhattan subway car was the solitary moan of a sax some guy was playing near the middle doors.
I had just come from ground zero, where the barricades north of the demolished World Trade Center site squeeze this skinny limb of an island like a tourniquet.
Yes, it's as if the city's blood flow has been blocked. People mill around in congested streets, turned back on themselves by the barricades, the gawkers, and beyond them, a specter as rare as it is immense: war ruins.
Yes, it's a serious topic he's discussing, but if you've ever seen Chris at his hyperactive best on "Hardball" it's hard not to picutre the image of a silent subway car on the "J" train, with one extremely noisy passenger saying "WE'RE IN BROOKLYN? I DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO BROOKLYN! I WAS GOING TO NBC AT ROCKEFELLER CENTER! WHAT ARE WE DOING IN BROOKLYN..."
Maybe he transfered to an F at Essex/Delancey.
Say what you will about Chris Matthews but I'll give the guy this. He is a very fair person on the air. He doesn't play favorites and even though he is a Democrat he has always been fair to Republicans. I know he didn't care for Gore, so it would not surprise me if he even voted for Bush. What's important is that he is a fair minded person and I like his enthusiasm. I always try to watch him. I think he is a great reporter and a very partriotic American. And if he gets lost in Brooklyn, just point him to Coney Island on the Sea Beach for a day riding the Cyclone and a nice lunch at Nathan's.
Have him get off someplace around Bay Parkway. He'll undoubtedly find some nice Italian hair place that'll give him a better dye job than he usually has.
Mark: We'll have to tell him that when we see him, right? But you caught me off guard. I don't really know if he dyes his hair. I can't tell from my TV screen, anyway. Have you seen Chris in person? I think you could get a better take if one could see him up close. Anyway, let him get the job done at Bay Parkway, and then he can go to Coney and ride the Cyclone. First car, though. That is the only way Sea Beach Fred does it when he goes to Coney Island.
His hair goes from blond to gray back to blond.
Fred you still don t remember, Remember when we got the Cyclone T Shirt, The people who work there said to ride THE LAST CAR, boy you are getting old
The best actual effect is in the last car. The best psychological effect is in the first.
Tell that to Fred
I keep telling myself to try the last car. You aren't the first to tell me, but I'm a creature of habit in just about all the things I do. If someone wanted to take me out in a hit I'd be a slamdunk because it's the same routine. When my wife and I went to Disneyland's California Adventure, I immediately went to the roller coaster called the California Scream. Instead of trying the last car I went straight up front. Wow, what a rush. Hell, why try something else when you enjoy what you've been doing? Anyway, that's my take on it. PS---Thanks for those pictures, and the card was great.
You are welcome
Hey Fred, did you yell "SEA BEACH FOREVER!!!" while riding on the Cyclone last spring?:-)
No, not last spring, but I was yelling "here comes Sea Beach Fred" when I rode it this August. Didn't I tell you my buddy Brighton Express Bob and I took a one day trip to New York from Virginia? I'll let him tell you, and I'll bet he'll tell you we had a hell of a time.
All Fred did is talk and talk and talk, especially on the N Train to the route supervisor, crying and whineing, why is my Slow beach a Local. Took him on the 5 to Dyre Ave, he did not want the railfan window on a Red Bird. He is so old, he fell asleep on the way home, missed all of Staten Island, Jersey, and was 30 miles in to Penna when he woke up, he slept for 1 1/2 hours, and thought it was 20 minutes.
Guilty as charged.
You wouldn't be able to pry me away from a Redbird railfan window.
Aw come on Steve, it was in the Bronx, in a crappy neighborhood, and the humidity was stiffling after spending some of the afternoon in Coney Island. I just wasn't in any mood. Bob didn't go near the railfan window either, and he loves the Bronx.
You'd never know the Dyre Ave. line goes through such an area. I rode on it two years ago and thought it was very picturesque.
I do not love the Bronx. I am a BROOKLYN BOY Thru and Thru, born in raised, in now what they officially call Madison. I stood at the railfan window the whole trip up on the 5, and most of the way back down, you are getting senile.
Hey Steve, I think he means me. Who getting senile now, Bob? You don't even know you are answering. That's a Brighton guy for you.
I m talking to you you John Bircher in Arcadia
Me a John Bircher. Tsk tsk tsk, such name calling. You would have to be real desperate to believe that. I could call you Phil Donahue if I wanted to because he's a real far out liberal like you, and you know what policy he wants to follow. He wants to reach out to the terrorists. Can you believe that? Let's face it, there are kooks from both wings all over the place, but I would even take Jerry Falwell over Donahue. Donahue is just plain idiotic.
>>> you John Bircher in Arcadia <<<
Hey Bob, you have to remember in Arcadia the Birchers are considered liberals. :-)
Tom
I don't have to listen to any smart ass comments from some old guy about my town. You're older than you think. Take care.
Fred can t handle the truth
Maybe he slept a few stops too many.
What, if any trains were caught on the 1/9 line or N/R line near the WTC on 9/11. I haven't seen anything about that. Were any people injured? Are there any trains stuck on the lines now? Someone told me that there was a Path train at WTC at theh time of the disaster and collapse and people died. Is this true? Anyone know?
There have NOT been any reports of anyone injured/killed on PATH at WTC at the time. Apparently, the entire WTC PATH station is inact with very minor damage.
There was a post, either here or in newsgroups, which described PATH's handling of the situation -- within two minutes of the first plane hitting WTC, all PATH trains were directed to NOT stop at WTC and return to New Jersey. This action on the part of PATH dispatchers was credited with saving many more lives.
Nobody has reported any 1/9 trains as being hit by any of the stuff coming down into the tunnel....but one of the train operators did post a report (again, either here or in a newsgroup) about how he was heading south, and started getting red signals from 14th Street, and by the time he got to Chambers, the trains were being turned or rerouted to Brooklyn.
If there WERE any trains in/around Cortlandt Street when the calamity occured, nobody has reported seeing them in the yards with any sustained damage. If any trains were below the area, they would have had to have been routed up the Lexington line out of the SF loop.
The Path is ok?Oh this is a miracle.
Not quite "OK" -- but the PATH terminal underneath WTC did NOT collapse. There is some damage. I have read varying reports, so I won't state what is or isn't damaged.....I'm sure y'all could find out back there what's what.
The big problem is that all the water mains that broke, plus the water being sprayed on the site by fire department, etc., all went to the lowest point it could find....into the PATH tunnels under the Hudson River. Reportedly there is about 10 feet of water in most of the tunnels -- and a temporary "plug" was made at Exchange Place to keep the water from going any further west. The water was confirmed as being fresh water -- had it been salt water, it would have meant that the tunnels themselves were compromised under the river. In other words, they would have been doomed permanently.
"The Path is ok?Oh this is a miracle."
You better believe it !
PATHs WTC station is about seven or eight stories below street level. It survived the '93 bombing, it seems to have survived this.
Bill "Newkirk"
By the way Bill, just so you get caught up with the times. Remember that picture you gave me of the #4 Sea Beach Triplex on a fan trip? Well it is still in my living room in an honored place. I look at it just about every time I walk through the place. A work of hard, a thing of beauty. Thanks again.
Thak you Fred !!
Bill "Newkirk"
My cousin was inside a 1 train sitting at Cortlandt Street when the 1st plane hit. They sat with the doors open a couple of minutes, then the conductor shut the doors, and told the engineer to get the train out pronto.
Where did THAT train go off to?
Where did THAT train go off to?
Again, I asked this question of one of our newer members who implied that at least one NYCT trainset was lost. To the best of my knowledge, this was not the case. The only railcar damage I have heard about is one trainset that was caught in a flood due to the explosions. I don't know about the extent of damage but from past experience, they can always be repaired.
(Again, I asked this question of one of our newer members who implied that at least one NYCT trainset was lost. To the best of my knowledge, this was not the case.)
I also heard about trains wrecked. It would be good if that were not true, as we won't have money for new trains for some time.
I heard PATH left one trainset at WTC but I can't confirm it.
Yes, they did. It is a little damaged.
>It would be good if that were not true,
>as we won't have money for new trains
>for some time.
Yet, when we DO have money... look at the lemons
we've been buying these past few years.
We were told in school that one trainset was lost, 26 busses, 12 service vehicles, some misc. training equipment and at least 1000' of tunnel without one loss of life. The probable cause was 'necessary abandonement' of equipment and not direct calamity. My S/M partner had just done some switch repairs in the vicinity of Cortlandt Street. Peter
You were told in school by whom? Most of those guys would choke on their own tongues if they ever had to really leave the school to do some work.
NOBODY died in the PATH - in fact acts of heroism on the part of the PATH staff saved countless (in the hundreds to thousands of) lives. The one trainset left behind in WTC station was unmanned; probably sitting on Track #5, where they normally lay trains up. It was said to be damaged but not destroyed.
wayne
The total loss on 9/11:
20 R-62As from the 1 had flood damge (2 10-car trains). No numbers were disclosed.
7 PATH PAs remain at WTC Terminal, submerged. Numbers Unknown.
There was a 5-car set of R-62s off the 4 with minor flood damage, but I am not entirely sure if this was related to the disaster.
All NYCT equipment has either been repaired or is being repaired.
"PERIOD."
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thank You for CLARITY!
Thank you, George for that information - if you DO happen to become privy to the numbers (esp. of those of the PATH cars) please do pass them along.
thanks in advance
wayne
I as well, curious to know
the (affected) car numbers from the 1 line.
The 20 cars affected were temporarily replaced by 20 R-62As brought over from the Pelham Line. THOSE are 1671-1675, 1711-1715, 1771-1775 and 1816-1820. When the 20 Broadway cars return to service, those R-62As are supposed to go back to the 6. In turn, those 20 were replaced temporarily by a 10-car train of Redbird R-29s taken out of storage. That will be replaced by additional R-142As when they enter service.
Speaking of which, I notice it's been a couple of weeks again since new R-142As have been reported on the road.
7486-7490 and 7496-7500 should be in service soon, if not already.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
If 20 R62As went from Pelham to Broadway and only 10 R29s came out of storage, we are missing one train on the 6. Did an R142A enter service or is the 6 now short one train?
Thanks Again, & for the Email.
Yes I know this isn't transit related,but I think this would help us all.Wat John is felling is normal,especially after a tragedy like this.Hell I was scared,we all was scared.And for some people those fellings go away faster than for other people.Like me,on the 11 I had to run for my life because I was literally a hop,skip and jump away from the World Trade center.Ever since I stopped looking at the news,I've stopped eating for some time and I get startled from loud noises.These are normal.If I remember in 1991 everyone didn't take the ubway after what Robert Ray did(If you don't remember go to Subway FAQ and click on subway accidents or something of that sort).But we will get over it,this isn't going to blow over but you will start to come back to normal.
And John you can't let fear control yor life.Go take the subway,go to the Empire State building and don't be affraid of Arabs.If some black guy rapes Chealse Clinton,and some other guy(presumably not black) rapes the "Bush girls" then tell me who is going to be the suspect a blacck guy or a guy(or girl)from another orgin(this is a hitorical question).Anyway you can't be affraid because then the terrorist will win.And "the Joe" you are bein very mean.Even or you.What John said was wrong but you don't make fun of him for that ok.If John did what you're doing to him,would you like it?I think not(you to Clayton).
I think Joe would Like it, I know him personally, then he'd kick his ass.
hehe! i'd be laughing me butt off. i'd be like, 'sure, buy me a bubble - and some other gear too! why not!'
maybe after that when his guard was down, then i'd kick is his rear! =) hehee!
this would make a lovely wwf episode. someone get some metal folding chairs out here! hehe!!! complete with loads of trash-talking!
what i said mighta been 'mean', but people suggesting that we should take many proud americans who came to this country for a better life just like all of us or our parents did, and round them up and have a little mccarthy witch hunt inquisition just cuz they haven't to be of arabian decent... well, that's not just mean - it's evil, satanic, disgusting, ignorant, stupid, unamerican, and please, fill in this blank for however many ugly words you want to toss in the mix: ________________.
as for q train... i don't know him... i don't even care to hate him, for that matter. people say not-so-swift things all the time. whatever. lord knows i've done it a time or 2, or 3... but c'mon... every other day it's 'i'm afraid of this, that and the other thing". it's normal to be a bit on edge, but to not come into town because of it/ or even the mall? c'mon! w're talking LI malls here!
the problem isn't that the rest of the world isn't safe - and that we have to turn this country upside down and into one even more disgusting than our adversaries in order to feel 'safe' - the problem is being taking their fears too far.
Quotes from MTA boss Peter Kalikow in this morning's Post:
Second Ave. Subway Fast-Tracked
Kalikow seems to understand that the chance of getting federal funding for Second Ave. will never be better than right now (and would probably be made even better, IMHO, if they tied the line into Nassau St. so the city could say it's serving the WTC area). The story also talks about a couple of things already discussed on the board, such as jug-handling the 1/9 train over to Battery Park City and extending the South Ferry platform to handle 10-car trains.
When I see it, I'll believe it.
I have no problem with skepticism, especially after the 1951 and 1975 cop-outs on construction of the line. But at least today's story shows someone in the MTA realizes the addage "Strike while the iron is hot" can apply to federal funding for N.Y.C. subway projects and that if a full-length Second Ave. subway is ever going to get the financing from D.C. now is the time.
if a full-length Second Ave. subway is ever going to get the financing from D.C. now is the time.
This gets to the heart of the 2Av subway 'problem'. Even if we got it built up to 63rd St., it really does not make that much sense unless it reaches up into the Bronx.
Are you suggesting that the part of the line that will be built in the Bronx should be built first?
Are you suggesting that the part of the line that will be built in the Bronx should be built first?
No. That would make even less sense. My point is that it makes sense ONLY when it goes from Bronx to at least Houston/2Av; otherwise it's just a very expensive replacement for the 2nd Avenue bus.
Very good point, the other option would be to sent it to Brooklyn via the Montague St Tunnel, but I doubt there is any capacity there when the N R and sometimes M are back.
Piggo
Or how about over the Williamsburg and to south Brooklyn? It's a lot of work, but would be nice.
How about resurrecting the Second system for the IND lines? This would be the time to put those proposals in, since the need for the second system is now obvious, to me anyway.
If the 2 ave subway will be built and finished, the manhattan bridge construction will be already be done. This might let the N train go over the bridge again and leave the Montague tunnel enough space for the 2 ave subway line.
But where in Brooklyn would it go? There's four options including Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and 4th Avenue/Bay Ridge. For the 2nd Avenue route to go down any of those lines, it would duplicate the existing routes on those lines. Or should we really go all out and give the 2nd Avenue route its own line in southern Brooklyn? Ideas?
A Second Ave. route via Nassau Street could replace the M on the Fourth Ave./West End line. and run as the local either to Bay Parkway or Ninth Ave. Assuming the Manny B is fixed, the B would continue to be the West End/Fourth Ave./Sixth Ave. express, the N would run as Sea Beach/Fourth Ave./B'way express and the R would run as the Fourth Ave./B'way local leaving only the R and the new Second Ave. line to use the Montague tunnel.
The M could either terminate at Broad or at Chambers with the J/Z, and the Nassau St. tracks between at least Chambers and Canal (or Bowery) could be reconfigured either into the outer tracks going to Second Ave. and the center tracks to the Willie B or the soon-to-be abandoned east platforms at Chambers and Canal could be reconfigured for the Second Ave. line (though that would make through service southbound past Chambers a problem).
You're talking about an M-length type train. I don't think the stations on the Nassau line can be lengthened. Or can they?
Then 2nd Avenue trains would have to be 480', which I think is adequate given ridership projections, and would still have more capacity than a 10 car IRT train.
They can always send the M up Sixth Avenue to make room for the 2nd Avenue to run to the West End Line.
Broad and Fulton certainly could be extended an additional 120 feet without much problem, and I don't think extending Canal northward would be that big a problem to accommodate 600-foot trains for a Second Ave. link. Chambers would have to have some track and switch layouts relocated, but that would still be cheaper than building a completely new line from Delancey to South Ferry. (As for Bowery, as close as it is to Chrystie St., I don't know if you could stop a Second Ave. line train there and still turn it northbound under Chrystie or Sara Delano Roosevelt Park with a wide enough curve to handle 75-foot cars).
If this is true, then my misgivings about sending a 2Av thru Nassau loop are lessened.
Once everything gets back to normal, including both sides of ManBridge, one could even *close* segments of the Nassau loop for reconstruction, without really impacting service that much.
The 2 ave could run in a new tunnel, which also ties in with rutgers/DeKalb to solve that problem, and then run IND express from Jay/7th/Church and then down the proposed Fort Hamilton Parkway line from there.
The route sounds like the path of the 'Magic Bullet.'
What "proposed Fort Hamilton Parkway line"? Who proposed this? Is it mentioned on this site or anywhere else on the web?
They should have left the 3rd Avenue El standing, made improvements on the structure and all, and then connected a 2nd av subway with it.
From what I remember about that line, it was in very sad shape, from years of neglect, and rehabilitation would have been prohibitively expensive. Replaceing it with a subway line would have been more cost effective.
Was it? I thought the reason that the Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue El came down was because community leaders wanted it gone. But I saw pictures of the el in its last days on some website. It didn't look good. Without seeing those pictures, I never would have been able to imagine 3rd and Webster Avenues as well as part of Gun Hill Road having an el over them. The el came down four years before I was born.
"Community Leaders" being those who owned businesses and real estate in the area and feared that the El would depress property values and prevent people from driving.
Do you know "Ron in Bayside"?
I'd like to hear an explanation as to why your following comment is true, and I quote:
>>>Even if we got it built up to 63rd St., it really does not make
>>>that much sense unless it reaches up into the Bronx.
The only answer I will immediately disregard is one that has to do with you living in the Bronx, and trying to get to work somewhere on or near 2nd avenue... i.e. a personal bias.
And, when you say up to 63rd street, don't you mean DOWN to 63rd street, or are you suggesting an altogethr new plan to build from wall st. up to 63rd street?
-Merelis
The 2Av everyone has been talking about starts down at Pearl/Water (where it's actually FINISHED), and thence goes uptown way into the Bronx.
The minimum would be Houston/2Av to 63rd St, but this would mainly divert service from other lines, and not really add any additional non-Manhattan capacity. As I said in another post, this would basically be a very expensive replacement of the 2nd Ave bus.
To make any sense at all, it has to reach up into the Bronx, and at least offer easy transfers from the IRT.
A "full-length" 2nd Avenue subway to the MTA means 125th to somewhere on the lower east side or Nassau Street. Its ridership would be make it be nothing more than an east side C train. You don't spend $14 billion to do that. CBTC should be installed on the Lex after the L line, but that is not the plan.
(A "full-length" 2nd Avenue subway to the MTA means 125th to somewhere on the lower east side or Nassau Street. Its ridership would be make it be nothing more than an east side C train.)
Not so. In Midtown there are four north-south subways, with 16 tracks, between 6th and 8th Avenues. There is one subway, with four tracks, from 6th Avenue to the East River -- with many, many jobs.
It would never draw as many riders as the Lex, with no express and located east of the jobs concentration. But if it provided an alternative so that people wouldn't have to suffer the Lex Hell, it would have done its job.
In any event, this will never happen without benefitting the suburbs rather than the City. How about that RPA Metrolink plan, with a special suburban express from Grand Central over to Second Avenue, down to Lower Manhattan, through a new tunnel to the LIRR line at Atlantic, and out to Jamaica? You might also extend the line east from Grand Central, with a stop in Times Square, to New Jersey, for a super fast connection from commuter rail and to the Meadowlands.
You don't spend $14 billion to do that.
My point exactly. The only justification for an investment this big is to relieve pressure on the Lex, and that can be done only up in the Bronx.
Don't get me wrong. I want to see a 2nd Ave subway.
When people talk about a minimum 2nd ave subway line, they usually are refrring to a line from 125th st to 63rd st and then down the broadway express.
The full length is usually from 125st to downtown. And all plans call for the 125th st station to be on Lexington avenue with at the very least, transfers to the lex lines, and *possibly* a direct rail link (which would be prohibitively expensive IMHO).
In addition the bronx can remain mostly irrelevant in discussions about the 2nd avenue line, which serves to service the following major corridors:
1. Grand Central Spur to Lower Manhattan
2. Reduction of congestion on the Lex by offering transfers to crosstown lines farther east (53rd st E,V) (63rd st F) (Braodway express to upper east side one seat service) (Queens Blvd to Downtown one seat service) (14th St. L) (East Broadway F and/or Grand St. S and 2nd Ave S). etc.
To see what is a very strong and effective vision of the 2nd avenue subway, check out the MetroLink web site:
http://www.rpa.org/mobility/metrolink.html
They actually inclue a new bronx line to co-op city. and all sort of other fun things! :)
-Merelis
I read most of the proposal and it sounds fantastic.
But, like all other things, I'll believe when I see it.
"the 2nd avenue line, which serves to service the following major corridors:
1. Grand Central Spur to Lower Manhattan
2. Reduction of congestion on the Lex by offering transfers to crosstown lines farther east (53rd st E,V) (63rd st F) (Braodway express to upper east side one seat service) (Queens Blvd to Downtown one seat service) (14th St. L) (East Broadway F and/or Grand St. S and 2nd Ave S). etc."
Aren't you forgetting something? The 2nd Avenue line serves to reduce crowding on the Lex, not just between Grand Central and downtown, but all along the line.
Perhaps I am misreading your statement, but from the way I take it, it sounds like you are claiming nobody boards the Lex between 125th Street and 42nd Street. This couldn't be farther from the truth. If you commute on the Lex daily, you would realize that uptown platforms are packed, waiting for packed trains. The (primary) purpose of the 2nd Avenue line can be better expressed as follows:
1) To reduce crowding on the Lexington Avenue line, and
2) To provide that relief service east of the Lexington Avenue, for that is the location where greatest demand lies.
This rephrasing better keeps with the spirit of the MTA's Planning Studies. If the destination is midtown (or downtown), you start providing parallel ROW in the area of greatest population density, thus causing fewer riders to board packed trains. As you build North (from midtown and downtown), you are further alleviating the problem. The best-case scenario would be to have a line into the Bronx, regardless of how many lines were there. If the existing lines were sufficient, we wouldn't have packed downtown trains entering 125th.
There is a secondary benefit of alleviating pressure on the cross-town lines out of Queens.
As for MetroLink, it is a valiant effort on what could (should?) be done, but still remains:
SKYSKYSKY
SKYPIESKY
SKYSKYSKY
MATT-2AV
If the 2nd Ave subway ever gets built (and that's a real question), it's likely to be built in segments, over time. The minimum would be from Houston/2nd Av, allowing increased service via the underused Rutgers tube up to a station north of 63rd St.
Overall this would be a very limited increase in capacity, and would do next to nothing for overcrowding on the Lex. It would also be colossally expensive. But once in place, there would be pressure for incremental extensions, say 10-12 blocks at a time.
Still, for the amount of money just to do this, you start thinking of hijacking the money for more immediate fixes which would increase capacity (and there really are such 'fixes' available).
"If the 2nd Ave subway ever gets built (and that's a real question), it's likely to be built in segments, over time."
Yes, that is certainly true. Different tunnel segments will be awarded under different contract.
"The minimum would be from Houston/2nd Av, allowing increased service via the underused Rutgers tube up to a station north of 63rd St."
This is where I have a problem.
My understanding was that the planning study put forth by the MTA was still accurate. Construction would begin in the vicinity of 63rd Street and 3rd Avenue, tying into the two bulkheads in the 63rd Street tunnel. A dropshaft was proposed for this location, and the TBMs would begin tunneling northward underneath 2nd Avenue, completing station at a time. Possibly at the same time as the tunnel makes its way towards the 80's, construction would begin on the stations in between the completed segments, permitting a large portion to come online in a short period of time. The jog to the west near 125th Street would be constructed last.
The purpose for starting at 63rd Street and working northward was to provide immediate relief for Upper East Side Lex riders (and Lex riders passing through the Upper East), by providing an interim full-length subway via the Broadway express tracks.
While construction on a segment south of 63rd Street may begin simultaneously, it would be cost advantageous to start after completion of the stubway.
If you have a source stating that the 2nd Avenue subway construction will begin downtown, please share it, because your statement was contrary to the conclusions of the MTA.
MATT-2AV
One of the braking systems automatically shuts itself off and the doors aren't working too well. A second braking system can do the work of the first but its more wear and tear on the brakes, causing them to wear out sooner. As for the doors, they are closing too fast, among other problems. The MDBF for these cars is 40,000 miles, while the other cars have an MDBF of about 80,000 miles. The article makes the impression these cars are in service on the Green line on a regular basis. Click here for complete article.
I thought that the cars were not put into service and the order held back due to the problems you just described. It looks like the cars were put into service with the defects not repaired.
They thought they could handle revenue testing. I considered heading over there to wait for one today, decided against it since its a Saturday schedule.
Good luck with the CAF cars. I've seen MARTA's new Breda trains running on all 4 lines here during rush hour. It's cool to see two new trains arriving at the same time in a station, and their lovely AC whine. They aren't running at all times, yet, but they are getting close. And it's only been about a year since they recieved the first married pair.
The reserves must be the redoubtable Rohrs, with their musical regenerative braking systems and super-tacky 70's interiors; what wonderful trains - God bless 'em, every one!
wayne
The Washington Post did another plane vs. train race on Friday. Actually, it was 3 planes versus the train. One was from National, one from Dulles, and the last was from BWI. The race started at the Washington Post's headquarters on 15th Street in Northwest Washington and ended in the same location. The 4 reporters had to go to the Post's New York bereau on 57th Street in New York and back to headquarters in Washington, DC. The plane from National won by almost an hour over the Acela. The reporter who took the Acela tried to exchange his ticket for an hour earlier and made his train by 2 minutes due to the inability to use the Quik-Trak since you need ID. The plane from Dulles to LGA came in third. It seemed this reporter decided to use public transportation after seeing the Grand Central Parkway was a mess. He took a Q33 to 74th Street which took 30 minutes, then took an "uptown" E train. I assume he meant it was going to uptown Manhattan, but when I first read that, I assumed he managed to get on the train towards Jamacia! The last place finisher was the BWI-Newark reporter. He spent over 700 dollars on plane tickets and taxicab fares.
Click here for the complete article.
Well the Acela train beat two out of the three planes planes in getting to New York, and that ain't bad!
Discovery Channel
Sunday Oct. 7
1:00 pm ET
The Sunset Limited: Death on the Bayou
One night a cross-country passenger train hit a damaged bridge and derailed. Seven cars flew into the muddy bayou, two ruptured fuel tanks ignited and 47 people were killed.
Follow the NTSB as they piece together what went wrong.
Found a site with some 73 close pictures of Groung Zero.
http://www.minut.ee/images/pildid/wtc/wtc001.jpg
and start incrementing the last digits.
Shocking.
Arti
Very nice, thanks for posting that. If you're looking at them, the first few are from behind the barricades but keep with it, somehow that photographer gets down to West Street near the World Financial Center.
[somehow that photographer gets down to West Street near the World Financial Center. ]
The site,I found them, claimed that police erased the pictures, but that the photographer recovered them using some software.
Arti
I hope you realize taking pictures in the ground zero area (a federal crime zone) is illegal. (I do know its not you, you just supplied the url) When I was first assigned to ground zero I bought a disposible camera and was going to take a bunch of pics. When I found out about the ban I ended up taking none.
By the way, to make this transit related a transit worker took me down into the Rector Street BMT Station. It looked pretty much normal except for alot of dust. The lights were all on and even the signals were working, on green. The token booth had all the handmade signs explaining the closures and where to walk to to get trains from the start of the emergency. I couldn't get anyone to take me into the Rector Street IRT station a block away though.
[I hope you realize taking pictures in the ground zero area (a federal crime zone) is illegal.]
I found the URL.
Arti
I know, thats why I put that in parenthesis.
I, for quite a bit was, thinking, weather I should reveal, what I found. For a while I thought that this would be inapropriate. Well the while lasted for an hour. At that time I realized, that perhaps, information withold would not be a "thing to do," so don't blame the messeger!!
Arti
>>> I hope you realize taking pictures in the ground zero area (a federal crime zone) is illegal <<<
Jeff;
I have done a quick electronic search of Title 18 U.S.C. and cannot find any such law. Can you or anyone else tell me the rationalization of why taking a photograph of a crime scene, without disturbing anything there is or should be illegal? I can understand why they do not want sightseers just wandering around, possibly disturbing evidence, but merely taking a photograph if one is following all other laws should not be illegal.
Tom
I don't know the answer to your question, Tom. I know that when I was a kid you were still prohibited from taking pictures of sensitive military installations, which included the Brooklyn Navy Yard. This was during the "peacetime" of the '50s.
I don't know if this qualifies under such a provision. IIRC, Giuliani's original reasoning for threatening to confiscate cameras was that people might profiteer from selling such images.
>>> you were still prohibited from taking pictures of sensitive military installations, <<<
That of course was for national security purposes which is far different than a crime scene.
>>> Giuliani's original reasoning for threatening to confiscate cameras was that people might profiteer from selling such images. <<<
That shows what a control freak Herr Rudolf is. He wants to impose his idea of good taste on others.
After giving it some thought I can see why officials would not want police officers working in the area taking unofficial pictures. If anyone were to be arrested and charged, with a crime, his attorney would ask to see all photographs taken of the scene by law enforcement officials. If it could be proved that there were photographs of a crime scene taken by police officers which were not turned over to the defense, the defense could argue that the defendant was being denied a fair trial. Look at the fuss that was raised when the FBI failed to turn over all evidence in the McVey case. This would not apply to private citizens taking their own pictures.
Tom
You think about how large the heavy equipment is that is being used in the search/recovery mission, yet they look so small compared to the mess that needs to be cleaned up.
To those with slow connections, these are large pictures so be patient....
--Mark
Well I'm getting DSL real soon, since I don't want to spend my whole life sitting in front of the computer.
Does anyone know of a website with pictures of the supposed "Devil face" upon one of the explosions or fires in the World Trade on 9'11?
Yes -- http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/wtcface.htm
also with an explanation of why people tend to see faces in the aftermath of a disaster.
For the lazy, that's
http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/wtcface.htm
Words can not describe this.
The picture of 3 World Financial Center, with the damage to the cornice and lower stories got me.
wayne
Agreed. In several of those pictures of 3 WFC you could see the windows of my former office, from when I first started working there in 1993.
Hi all,
Did anyone take pictures of #1 to New Lots Avenue? how about J and M to 95th St and Coney Island via Sea Beach line? Taking pictures of each trains where they never been to, pictures of train stickers on any station signs, etc.
If anyone already did, can you post their URL on SubTalk (this tread, if possible)
Thanks,
Michael Adler
Colorado
Harry Beck posted a couple of shots of some Slant-40 M trains on the Sea Beach line on his website about two weeks ago -- they're in the top row of the thumbnails -- but so far I haven't seen any shots of the J train at any of the Fourth Ave. local stations.
It's real strange for me seeing slants on the Sea Beach, much less marked "M" than "N".
I'm used to R32's going up to 57th Street over the bridge.
Long live the Sea Beach!
I have a pictre of an M train on the Sea beach line I can mail you.
I sent five images of this to Dave Pirmann about a week or so ago. I guess he has not posted them as yet.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I took a picture of a 1 near New Lots a few weekends ago when a GO sent it out there. I thought it was a rare occurrence, but then the GO was essentially put into effect semipermanently. Oh well.
I also have an M at Stillwell, an R-32 Q at W8, and a J (I don't remember where but it's signed with a 95th Street south terminal).
(I also have a few other reroutes, like a D at Canal, another D at 2nd Avenue, and a 5 at South Ferry outer.)
The pictures are not yet in suitable form for posting to the public, but if you email me I can send you a link to the relevant Snapfish albums.
I have a picture of a J at 59 St station In Brooklyn. If anyone wants it let me know.
Anthony
As of 12:01pm Today, I am now off Probation. It been one long year, but it was wouth it. So I guess my old handle of "Robert@JackGleason & Robert@UlmerPark" are now retired for good. Long live Rober(B Division T/O)
Robert
>>> As of 12:01pm Today, I am now off Probation. <<<
That's great!! Now keep your nose clean for a couple of years, avoid any new arrests, and maybe we can get the record expunged. :-)
Seriously though, Congratulations!
Tom
Congrats, guy! Now be good, stay off the L line where you'll be tempted to play "whack a ball" ... heh.
To late, I have the L on Tuesday. I rather line the L, I like to see the red light chaging in my face. The L line dose not scare me, I take my time thought the timers. Most of them are easy to go though smothly. The T/O and the TSS's who showed me the timer told me how work the time the right way. They even told me not to speed thought the River tubes. If you di the rest the right way then you should be able to keep time.
Robert
Heh. Gotta admit, in my days we didn't have the luxury of poorly calibrated speedos so we could find out (as Ed Koch used to say) "How'm I doing" on GT's ... you just got to feel the run and know what was the right speed to clear the alleys and for the time I was there, only knew the Brighton/concourse run (D) with an occasional (CC) run.
From what I hear though, the world down yonder has changed tremendously in the 30+ years I've been out of the tunnels. Since you're no longer "fresh meat," it won't be the street but ya gotta watch it. Having read here "how to work the timers" on the L line, as well as reading recently how the timers have been twiddled, if I were operating today in the paranoia that seems to be a way of life down there now, I wouldn't even THINK about playing chicken down there, since I would expect that eventually, just like the keyby tests on 8th avenue, someone's going to take a wrench to one of those relay cabinets "just to see what we can catch."
At least you're off probie now. :)
I know I won't play with the timers, I do like this better then being a B/O.
Robert
Ah ... former MaBSTOA, eh? ... the one downside is no grade crossings. You don't get to grease Toyotas down yonder. But the traffic lights tend to be more favorable at least and door pounders get cured in a flash at the end of the platform. :)
Congratulations on getting off probation. All it means is that it is harder for the TA to put you back to your former title! Now you are allowed to go into ENY, FP and Canarsie hand throw yards. But because of TA policy, you are now on your own and had no experience in those yards for your first year, but are now expected to know them like you know the places where you have worked over the last year. I know all the L line TSS's. Please E mail me privately and tell me who the TSS was who showed you how to work the timers "the right way"! You will remain annonymous! I want to ask him to his face what happens if a timer fails to clear. Does he cite the t/o for failing to have his train under control? From what I was taught, you must always be ready to stop your train before a red signal. You can never assume it will clear in your face! Approaching a red signal in the 14th St. tube at speeds in excess of 40 MPH is unsafe train operation.
I don't remember the name of the TSS;s who show me them. I do know one is a Spansh guy who says that he only work on the L when He was a T/O, and the only one is an older guy. After a year do you even think I know who is the TSS who has me as a regual T/O.
Robert
Good luck!
Congrats Robert. Glad to see that you've gotten the probie monkey off your back.
Thanks.
Congrats, Robert and much good luck to you!
--Mark
Thanks.
Congratulations!!!
Congradulations.
:-) Andrew
Best of luck Robert. But please keep your shirt tucked in (got to set a good example). Does that mean you on the Extra Board instead of the Extra Extra list ?
Mr t
Congrats! I must feel great.
I will be off probation in 7 Weeks if everything goes alright.
The question I am posting for the subtalk community is the following:
How many of you subtalkers are active participants in NYC goverment?
I'm not talking about voting, although that is a perfectly acceptable and wonderful way to participate. I am specifically referring to attending local community board meetings in whatever borough you live OR work, AND/OR attending MTA hearings and meetings that are open to the public. (see below for more info on Community Board meetings, what they are, etc.)
The question came to my mind while attending a class I am taking at NYU called "Shaping the Urban Environment." Our first homework assignment is to attend a Community Board meeting of our choosing, and to write an essay about it. Therefore, a few classes were devoted to learning about city government, and what Community Board meetings are like.
Apparently, you can attand any community board meeting, no matter who you are. There is a law on the books called the "Sunshine Clause" or something like that, that makes it so any joe can attend any meeting.
Even more than that, every general meeting of every Community Board (CB) has a time where any person gets a mintue or two to say anything they wish to the members of the board. They don't have to listen, but you do get your minute or two of the floor, which can be an excellent starting place for lobbying about something, or bringing a concern to the attention of your city govermnet.
And better still, those who attend 3 meetings in a row (there is one each month) gets a vote at the following meetings. You become an un-appointed member of the board... a reward of sorts for actually attending.
And the reason I bring this up on Subtalk, is because here is a group of people who are not only presumably well knowledged about how part of the city runs (with a focus on transportation, or course), but at the very least, a group of people who care very much about how the city SHOULD run, and with something to actually suggest.
We subtalkers care. We think about the future of the city. The future of the way it moves its people around, to get to and from the places that make the city what it is.
And so, I will post again after some responses come in and I get a better sense as to whether subtalkers DO attend CB meetings, and I'm telling most of you things you already know...
...or... that most subtalksers didn't even know about the CB meetings, and that there is an un-tapped resource for our hopes and dreams about the city to be channeled through in such a way that something active and good can come of it.
And if the latter is true, I would propose setting up some sort of organizing system through which subtalkers can lobby their ideas via shows of force by showing up in large number.
To affect serious change in this city, though grass-roots campaigning is not impossible. For example: A group of concerned citizens overthrew the power of the "great" Robert Moses, preventing him from bulldozing much of the lower villiages, tribeca, and soho, (areas that at the time nobody except the people who lived there cared for) with a seemingly-very-much-needed cross-Manhattan 10-lane expressway (called "Lo-Max"... LOwer MAnhattan eXpressway).
Here is my plan: I expect to begin regularly attending both the meetings of CB#1 (which covers the entire lower manhattan region including my dorm, and the WTC), and the public meetings held by the MTA. I will share what I learn there via my SubTalk postings... and my hope is that when the time is right, I will call upon other concerned subtalk citizens to show up in force to use our collective knowledge and concern to actually influence the course of events in NYC.
Remember, the reason that NIMBYs have so much "power," is usually not because they represent a majority of a population, but because they go trhough the hassle of showing up at these meetings when the time is right. Perhaps we can create a phenomenon that works in a similar way, but instead of being motivated by selfish reasons, we speak for the greater good of transportation.
Discuss.
-Merelis
p.s. I plan to attend CB#1's meeting in late october. Each community board covers a region the size of a neighborhood or two. And they exist in all 5 boroughs. Look it up on line for more information or at the following web site:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/cau/html/cblist.html
CB#1 (little italy, tribecca, and lower manhattan)has to deal with the WTC and other local concerns that go along with being a federal disaster area. It should be quite interesting! [Tuesday, October 23, 6:00pm, @ BMCC 199 Chambers St, Performing Arts Center, Theater #1].
Anyway, I'll keep you all posted!
I've been attending Public meetings on a variety of topics - from the Route 9A Reconstruction to 'what should we do with Governor's Island?' - for over 15 years. As much as I hate to say it, I usually go when I'm in need of a good giggle. Some of these meetings can be funnier than the stuff they bill as 'Comedy' these days. I'm on more MTA project mailing lists than I'd like to think about - to the point that when they sent me the job offer letter for Conductor, it sat on my desk for a week before I opened it. About 4 years ago, I attended one being held by NYSDOT in reference to the Staten Island Expressway, to which I took my four-year old daughter. After sitting there for 45 minutes, having me explain what they were saying in words she could understand, she decided that they were all silly - an opinion that I was forced to agree with.
I've also done a few CB Meetings and am now volunteering as Parliamentarian for my local PTA.
I've been looking for you. Where have you been? Did you ever contact the LIRR about the doors opening on the wrong side at Woodside? What ever happened? You started a long thread, and just disappeared.
I apologise. My access to the internet has been very limited. When I made my original post, it was from the unstable dial-up connection we set up at the Sheraton Hotel, where NYU put it's "displaced" students. My dorm is on Water St. and Fulton. We got back only a bit over a week ago. And our Telephones remained down until today, actually, and our internet is still gone. I'm posting today from my permanent address on Long Island, visiting Family.
The problem is that I looked back in my date book and found that my memory doesn't serve me well enough to recall the exact train. My suspicion was that it was September 10th (which was hard to believe because it seemed so long ago, but September 10th is not), and that it was a Penn - Hempstead local train leaving penn at 8:35am. But I'm not absolutely sure. Next time, I will write down the friggin car numbers on the spot! Hopefully, there won't be a next time.
-Merelis
member Rescue MUNI a Transit RiderAdvocacy Group (San Francisco) We regularly work to improve MUNI performance (including a city charter amandment co-authored by us requiring major changes in MUNI) Occasional citizen attendee at AC Transit (Oakland and environs) Board meetings.
Well I hope that I'm of age to be able to take the Public Exam for T/O's cause I would to turn a hobby into a job. So from you T/O's or Conductors out there, what is the best line to Drive?
My vote goes to the 4, speed, speed, speed
or the M line (slow, but you're out of the tunnel 65% of the ride)
or maybe the Q line for the super brighton express?
So what is your vote for best line?
Every line is good/bad to different T/O's. The question is too vague. Bottom line is that you enjoy your job and enjoy operating regardless of the line.
As Zman said it is up to the T/O. The Q pre-9/11 was fast but you did a lot of trips. Some T/O's prefer only a few trips.
Even though I'm not a T/O,I ride the 4 to work and most of the T/O's I speek to give no complaint,though the young T/O's usually say th 4 and 5 is a hard route because of the span from Fulton street to Union Square(especially Union Square).And If you do become a T/O you might wan't to try to master Union Square befor any other line(I drew a track map of all of the 4 line and I always mess up at Union Square).
the 4 has speed??
the 4 has speed??
The one closest to your home. It's a job!
The best one WAS the Sea Beach when the Triplex ran on it and it crossed the Manhattan Bridge and was an Express. Now, who knows?
Sea Beach being the best? In my 25+ years of traveling throughout NYC, I have always had trouble with the #4/Sea Beach/N (and now, temporarily, M) line. Living near the 18th Ave station on the N since February 2001, I think I have had a handful of days where the line runs smoothly. And, now that the N/R will be out of commission until March 2002, it just makes live that much more pleasant on the Sea Beach.
If it was the best, it was certainly before my time.
That's what I said Dan. Since you are obviously a lot younger than I am (I will be 61 on October 27) you are not aware of what my favorite line used to be---the best. The TA has done a lot to undermine that line as witnessed by the decrepit stations in Brooklyn with peeling paint and refuse all around the tracks. I wish I ran the TA. There would be changes aplenty, especially on the Sea Beach.
For S/As it is individual preference too!
Some want to be near home, or want a busy or slow station. Some want outdoors or indoors. Some want to be off at a certain time to coordinate childcare. There are as many diffrent reasons as we have S/As.
I like Night lunch relief (especially those with no part-time booths) so I can ride the system all night long.(You take the subway to get to the next location on your schedule.)
I try to avoid midtown Manhattan since Midtown has the most part-time booths which are a headache to open and close due to proceedures involved with opening or closing a booth which I will not divulge short of stating we have to tell the computer what is coming into the booth when we open the booth and what is leaving the booth when we close the booth. We also have to do our paperwork for closing before the acutal closing so we must stop sales while we do our closing paperwork.
NLRs and any LR (Night Lunch Relief, Lunch Relief) can get pulled to man a booth for a shift or to open a part-time booth but that does not happen often. If we pulled to open a part-time booth usually that is done until Transit sends someone else to get us out and then we reasume our schedule based on where we can get to based on current time and length it takes to get to a stop on our schedule.(Ie- I am pulled for a station on the A Line and my schedule calls for me to be in Brooklyn on the F Line--it will take me time to get to Brooklyn.) Stations skipped will get paid for lunch.(A supervisor will call and inform the S/A "You are getting paid for lunch" anmd request name and pass mumber.: If the pulled L/R does not get lunch at the booth to which they are being pulled to, we too will get paid for lunch.
My rules regarding a preferred booth is:
1) I'd bag enough to cash my paycheck.
2) It's not too far from home or it's a fast ride.
3) It's in a good area. eg Stores outside
4) I work with good people
5) I like the hours. The only job I wouldn't take would be anything on AM's before 8am.
6) I don't have to deal with too many angry customers during a disruption.
7) The booth can be busy or quiet. Just as long it doesn't go to an extreme.
I have 22 years on the job and I'm a V/R. If anything I am not bored.
The No.4 Line is good its a fast line with a lot of Overtime. Just pack your own lunch.
As from my point of view as a Conductor you can always find something good or bad about any line.
My favorite line to work is the No.5 Line because its a fast line and not always going to Brooklyn. Also exept for Rush Hours the ridership is light. The runs are very easy going. The only bad thing about working the No.5 Line is if you park the car around the Dyre Ave station you take a big chance and that much eating places.
My least favorite line is the No.7 Line but most of you know that already.
Our #4 train was so delayed in arriving at 125th St. northbound last night that it only stopped at 149th, 161st, Burnside and Mosholu before getting to Woodlawn, where it faced an empty pocket and took off southbound right away. The cause of the delay and subsequent hustle was a freight train ambling on the northbound express track in Manhattan. The train looked a bit odd when the lead locomotive, followed by an R15 idler and a second engine, proved to have an interesting consist. Most of the train consisted of 6731-6735, unlit and positively beautiful, slowly slipping by to the admiration of almost everyone on the platform. Another locomotive followed, and it was nice to see this procession of new equipment finally on the property and heading northbound. We don't know where it went, but 205th St. yard does have a lot of new cars, as does the new yard at E. 180. What a pleasant surprise! Someday when I ride that car group I'll recall what they looked like when they were "just born".
Wonderful! You've just revealed another R-142 delivery being completed tonight with Cars 6731-35. Those cars came from a Yard on the 1/4 Lines in Bklyn, Linden Yard. They were destined for the Car Barn At East 180th Street.
-Stef
Car 6688 Lives Again.... It took NYCT 12 long years to bring her back, but she's rolling again, this time as an R-142.
But this 6688 is distinctively different from her former self. This car is not a single unit but is married to 4 other cars and lacks operating cabs. No Redbird Paint here! The car is stainless steel.
6686-90 and 6701-05 are being tested at the present time for future entry into revenue service.
-Stef
That settles it. We must ship 6688 (the R17) back to NY (once
the paint job is completed, of course) so that everyone can
get _the_ meet shot of the century! All of our other rt
cars with recycled numbers (1227, 1689, 2775, 3662) wound up
being cross-division mismatches.
I'll start off by greeting my fellow Sub-Talkers!! I haven't been here much lately- just wasn't up to it after all that happend...But anyway- we got to get on with life...so..
Today. I read in the Post that the Second Avenue Line may be "fast tracked" (pun obviously intended). While I won't believe it till I actually take a train there, I thought maybe I'd post MY personal subway wish list and see what feedback I'd get here..below are my ideas, listed in what I consider priority order. I'll admit that maybe some of my choices are colored by the location of my residence of other perosnal bias, but still, I'll run on a little here, and maybe some folks would be kind enough to leave some feedback?
1. Rebuild the southern end of the 7th Ave IRT. Reason- well, you gotta at least get back to where you started from. Perhaps we can consider moving the line farther west, as has been suggested, but we shouldn't squander the funding that could come through talking this over. It's most important to get the line working again.
2. The Second Avenue Line. I won't take a definite postion on an exact route (subway vs. "stubway"), but maybe running it into the Centre Street Line makes the most sense?
3. Actually I consider this tied in importance with #2- revitalize the North Shore Line on Staten Island- the traffic on the Expressway, Victory Blvd, and just about every other road has been horrible for the longest time- if there was a good park & ride lot on the site of the old Arlington Yard, there could be really good demand for this service. This project shouldn't be "light rail", but full B-Division standard service. Maybe as a bonus, we could even get an extension down the Travis Spur and pick up some folks from the Travis/Bulls head/Graniteville communities.
Hell, with all this funding we're supposedly gonna get from DC, when they "twin" the Goethals Bridge, let's make the new span capable of carrying trains, and run SIRT right up to Jersey City. The Hudson/Bergen light rail is cute, but this would be more practical, I think. Those of you not familiar with Staten Island might not think this is an important project, but anyone who lives out here might see some logic. The routes are largely in place, so simply shoring up some abutments, laying some rail and signals, and we're halfway done....(I guess keep the mainline R44s alittle longer than planned, as well, or expand the R160 order)
4. A Tenth Avenue Subway. Especially with all the housing that Trump built by Lincoln Plaza and the general boom on the Upper West Side over the past 40 years, I think this is needed. I'd suggest B-Division service, and the lower portion of the line can run along Hudson and/or Greenwich Streets, northernmost maybe could join the "A" near 207th and/or the "B/D" and go to the Bronx. I know that's imprecise, and those existing lines maybe couldn't handle the increased volume, but this is just an idea to kick around (unless soembody in power draws some inspiration here)
5. Other stuff- elimante the "S-curve" on the J train- I railfanned it, and I can see why the line's underused. This was actually proposed around 1958.
6. Get some service to southeast Queens- what's the name of that LIRR branch they closed in 1962? Who knows, maybe we could even finally use the upper level of Roosevelt Avenue Station? (aside- any chance of a legal tour there anytime soon?)
Well- that's it folks- thanks for listening, and I welcome your comments/criticisms.
Funding is a possibility for SOME, not all of the things, but all of the ideas seem useful!
Oh yeah- I realize not too muc of my wish list is likely to get funded- but I'm glad ya liked it!
No need to twin the Goethels Bridge, so I've been told. It was built to take IRT style trains; this capability is still there. The pricey item is a trans-Hudson tube, probably coming in just south of BP City, perhaps as IRT, perhaps as a new PATH line.
7. Lots of money to do all this.
The best thing right now is to try any do anything that can in some way be directly tied into access to the World Trade Center site. A Second Ave. subway that would use the Nassau Loop to get to within two blocks of the WTC would qualify -- at least when it went before the House and Senate transportation and budget committees down in Washington. All the representatives and senators from around the country could grasp the idea of running a new subway line close to the WTC, if it cut down on the number of vehicles (and potential car bombs) in the area, even if they've never been to lower Manhattan.
Unfortunately, an `E' extension to eastern Queens, a No. 2 extension to southern Brooklyn and some of the other ideas floated wouldn't qualify, since they're not directly tied into the WTC rehab project, as important as those new lines might be. Best hope there would be to sneak in a few $100 million extra for a tunnel for the Second Ave. line under the Harlem River to hook up with the Amtrak ROW in the Bronx for a run up to Co-Op City.
No doubt this would take a lot of money. I know that not too much, if any of it is likely to be realized. That's why it's a "wish list".
But were an opportunity like the dual contracts ever to present itself again, it's what I'd like to see. Somebody else in the thread has suggested running the Second Avenue Line to The Bronx via the Amtrak Connector. That sounds like a good idea to me.
I'm all for the 2nd Avenue line as is[Nassau st],It would make the most sense with the dollars available.Also,a branch to the Houston st line[F] at Essex/Delancey would give riders another option for Brooklyn service,and a stub end terminal at Grand st would present a third.
"5. Other stuff- elimante the "S-curve" on the J train- I railfanned it, and I can see why the line's underused. This was actually proposed around 1958."
S curve on the J train. There's a couple of spots (at least, I think there is) where this occurs. Are you talking about the curve that exists along the line approaching the Brooklyn Bridge station?
I think he means between Cypress Hills and Crescent in eastern Brooklyn.
And there is no Brooklyn Bridge station on the J.
Yes- I meant this portion. By "Brooklyn Bridge" I think Dan means Chambers Street.
Actually, I was referring to the elevated portion between East NY and Cypress Hills. But I'm not opposed to re-working other portions as well. Cost even more$$$
I've had thoughts of a 10th Avenue line. It would be a two-track line with provisions for future expansion, branching off of the IRT (track layout should allow for access from both local and express, but actual service would probably run from the local) at 72nd Street. It could terminate at the Javits Center or Hudson Piers or it could continue as a West Street line, as others have suggested. The simplest north terminus would be 137th Street (or send the new line to 242nd and cut back the 1 at 137th, but that would undoubtedly annoy those from north of 137th since a 10th Avenue line would undoubtedly have dreadful connections), or it could branch off to the west at 116th and stop at Grant's Tomb, Fairway, and Riverbank State Park. A more ambitious project would run it east across 125th Street and from there to either the Bronx or LaGuardia, but it would make more sense for a line to the airport to have better transfer opportunities.
1) Is this the first time there was ever a one seat ride from Newark to 33rd St? Did this ever occur in the old days of the Hudson & Manhattan ?
2) Yesterday I exited the Pavonia/Newport station for the first time. Is the pedestrian exit tunnels and escalator area sorta new, or was this arrangement different back in the old days of the H & M when the Erie RR was upstairs ?
3) When riding the front car of a Newark bound train entering Pavonia, I noticed some water on the tracks. I've always noticed PATH trackways to be dry. Did some water from the flooded Exchange Place station back up, but not really flood ?
Bill "Newkirk"
1) NWK/33 - I can't say for sure. But it isn't in any of the rule books I have (including the ever-popular 1923 and the rare 1952).
2) PATH put the entrance and escalators in. The H&M experimented with a variety of access methods, including a primitive people-mover. I have a brochure about it somewhere...
3) No, it has leaked for years. It leaks from near Pavonia northward to the junctions with the uptown under-river tunnels. The PA commissioned a study "way back when" on track improvement, which was delivered in August, 1967. This particular leak was called out as a major problem in that report. However, as far as I can tell, many of the recommendations in that report were never implemented.
<<2) PATH put the entrance and escalators in. The H&M experimented with a variety of access methods, including a primitive people-mover. I have a brochure about it somewhere...>>
I'd be interested in hearing more about that...
I'll have to research it. All my blueprints are mostly-sorted, but the brochures and other historical documents are a jumble. It was called the "Speedwalk" and it opened in 1954. It was over 100' long and ran the whole length of the inclined ramp.
2) I've been wondering the same thing. I believe the tunnels are original, but the current location of the escalators might be new. I'm not sure where you would have come up out of the ground into
Erie Terminal though. Anyone know? It's weird how they have two seemingly redundent tunnels, although they do lead to different parts of the platform. They are probably put to good use now that Newport is such a hot place to work.
As long as there was an H&M and a Pennsylvania Railroad, there was no service Newark Penn/Park Place - 33rd because of the agreement between the two roads. H&M agreed to eschew that route because it would have siphoned off passengers who would have ridden on the PRR.
I don't think those trains have ever run except for emergency service diversions (train starts at Newark and somewhere before it gets to Exchange Place they find out it can't go to WTC due to switch problems or police activity)
Terry Kennedy can probably pitch in here- I think during the last NYC Transit strike that PATH ran such a service. (I was not in the arera but I think it was stated at the PATH meetigns I went to that it was done.)
During the last transit strike, PATH ran WTC - Pavonia - 33rd Street, so that NYC residents could have a way to get to Midtown. I don't know if they altered the other service patterns.
A few other posters posted some photos from Autumn in NY. Here are some of mine. The young 5 yr old redhead is my son Arthur. The exterior shot of the R9 with me & Arthur was shot by Bob Anderson (of lirrhistory.com fame) and emailed to me. The rest are by me with a disposible camera bought in the museum giftshop. I will add more photos when I figure out my complicated scanner!!! To check out the photos click onto http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford.html
Don't tell me the upper destination curtain in that sign box is torn.
The sign on the other side of the car is complete.
Depending on the nature of the tear, if a splice came loose, it's time to break out the old needle and thread. OTOH if the canvas itself is torn, transparent tape should do the trick. I've had to do both on my IND curtains.
Men di they let 1001 go. It looked alot better about 15years agao when me and my family use to go up there.
When the time and manpower are available, things will get done.
How unfortunate things are! Maybe if we had Coney Island Shop in Branford, how things would get done that much quicker. Museums are limited by what they can do.
I was thinking of what I might do after the R-17, and I might be changing gears. Perhaps, 1001 needs a pair of good hands to work on her. The Trolleys are just as valuable as any Subway Car out there.
-Stef
Can you help Doug with his work on 1227?
Sure. There is work in progress on 1349. It would be nice to have it operational. Perhaps I should get more involved in the mechanical aspects of getting these old vehicles to roll.
-Stef
I know that it is limted to what man power you have. I did not meen it in a bad way. When I was there as a kid I used to halp polish the brass handle that other thing like that. My farther also did work on some of the cars. We stop going when something happen on the board, I don't remenber what. I would like to come back as a member, maybe next summer I will.
Robert
Robert, the good news is that mechanically she's been getting some TLC & she inside, so with a little help from maybe some new friends she'll shine again.
"Autumn in NY" she was a popular car. Lou from Brooklyn & I teamed up for a while on her Sunday.
Mr t
I think I read somewhere that 1001 needed to be repainted inside and out, and some seat cushions need to be replaced? If so, then I'd say you are reasonably well off because, comparatively speaking, 1001 probably doesn't need as much restoration work as other streetcars at your place do.
I was up at our museum on Sunday and the speach the conductors give about the Louisville PCC and the TTC MU PCC at the back has been extensively modified so that it sounds like they're officially leaning towards throwing in the towel on those two streetcars. I don't know for sure yet, I'm just inferring that based on the new speech, but I plan on asking a few friends who'd know more about the goings on there whenever I see them next.
-Robert King
1001 was already restored once to like-new condition. Over the years, exposure to salt air has taken its toll. I heard Shoreline got it very shortly after it was retired from service - in a matter of days, IIRC.
I know how salt air causes steel to rust, but I don't understand how it causes paint to deteriorate which then obviously leaves steel exposted to the risk of rusting. Unfotunately there just isn't a way to permanently restore a streetcar in an operating museum where it's being used and exposed to the environment. Things would be so much easier if it was possible.
-Robert King
[... speach the conductors give about the Louisville PCC and
the TTC MU PCC ...]
#18 & #21 are SEPTA Red Arrows ... they are double enders
#3323 is a MBTA "Dallas Car" that was traded for #84
#8 is a SEPTA Brilliner PCC look-a-like
#84 is a SEPTA Brill Master Unit PCC look-a-like, she operates on shop trucks (was part of a "Pagent" this year.
#27 was just acquired, and did service on Newark City Subway
#1001 you know
We have a TTC (Toronto) Peter Witt #2898 that you might have seen. It also operates. A second Peter Witt from Brooklyn needs a lot of TLC.
BTW, it might have been ME who was doing the speaking Sunday ?
Mr t
1001 needs to be re-restored. Salt air will do that over time.
I have an old BMT sign box, and at the "CC" sign , it's really torn.
As you said, transparent tape works very well. I think my sign is too
brittle to stand the needle and thread job.
Chuck Greene
Try Mylar tape. Our sign guy at BSM uses it on our signs. Works fine on linen signs.
I'm sure we have spares and even the existing one can be repaired. If there's time, I like to get in there with a colleague and fix the signage.
Old age, my friends, will do any Rail Vehicle harm.
-Stef
Melbourne's new C Class trams are now operational. Background brief is at http://www.yarratrams.com.au/news.html. I havn't seen a photo yet that I can email, bit I will do so when I get one.
When did they get them?
Bob, I beleive they became operational at the start of this month, after being trialed through September. I'm trying to track down some more info. Yarra Trams' press releases, or at least the ones on the net, are not particularly up to date.
Thanks
I got a great Video on Melbourne Trams when i was down there last Year, it was obsolete then. Was watching my videos I took there and Sydney the other day. One of these days I will transfer them to full size tapes.
Melbourne has a great transit system. I was there this summer. The trams cover almost every street in the compact (one mile square) downtown, and rardiate throughout the suburbs. They are mostly street-running, though there are some dedicated ROWs. One of the prettiest is through the park that houses the zoo, where the tracks run through the greenery. Besides the regular lines, there's a tourist-oriented downtown loop that uses vintage cars. The fare system uses farecards that can be bought at vendors and muts be validated on the tram -- though this is often overlooked by the natives. You can also buy certain types of farecards in machines on the trams. The system only runs till 11 or 12 at night, but there are night buses. Interestingly, there are almost no buses normally in downtown, because the trams are everywhere.
As we climb into our beds not knowing what tomorrow brings,some of us will be scared.Sub Talker or Bus Talker we will be frightened after the events of the past month.This goes not just to Sub and Bus Talkers, but to who ever is reading this post,male,female,child,adult,Christian,Muslim whoever.Tomrrow when you wake up go take your family to a parade ,or a resturant,or a Broadway show,or just sit on the subway and look out the window.You can't let fear take over your life because if you do then the terrorist win.We will all be safe.I admitt I can't say what will happen in the next 1,2,5,10 years,nut in the end we will beok and we will be victorius.So don't be scared of anything ok
Good night and God bless you all
God Bless America
Paul Kelly
For me I'll be riding around Queens and going to Flushing, being outside and enjoying the beautiful fall air. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
thank you.
Being scared is just what the terrorists want. They cannot stand anything else, so do not give in to them.
A Double Night GO (track repairs) is in effect on the 2 at the moment. Trains are single tracked from 135th St to Jackson Av.
From 135th St to 149th St GC, all trains are on the uptown side. From 149th St GC to Jackson Av, all trains shift to the downtown side. Uptown trains run express from 149th St to East 180th St.
It's rather interesting, and I caught the first portion of the GO as it was going on. The work between 135th St and 149th St is to go on for two nights. I'm unclear about work on 149th St to Jackson Av, but it will be in effect for tonight. The GOs didn't start simultaneously, otherwise I would have wound up at the East trying to get back down to my home.
I'd thought I'd mention it, because it happens to be one of those cases where GOs overlap.
That's all for now.
-Stef
My friend decided to go to Berlin to train watch, due to the varied equipment on the S Buhn, U Bahn. Rail and Tram. Has anybody been there, and know what are the best lines on the U Bahn and S Bahn to see and take pictures. I am a intermediary because he does not have a computer. Thanks
If there is any way of getting hold of Capital Transport books, both of the following are extremely good:
The Berlin U-Bahn Handbook, Brian Hardy, Capital Transport Publishing; ISBN: 1854141848
The Berlin S-Bahn Handbook, Brian Hardy, Capital Transport Publishing; ISBN: 1854141856
If you are interested in abandoned stations and underground infrastructure in Berlin you may want to get in touch with Dietmar Arnold.
http://berliner-unterwelten.de/english/index.html
He operates out of an old bunker that is perforated by an active subway line. Occasionally he gives tours. He has also written a couple of fascinating books on the subject for Christoph Links Verlag (www.linksverlag.de).
at 908 WCBS880 says PATH service from Hoboken to 33 is suspended . Shadow Traffic's reporter says to take NJT to NYC since there is No PATH to NJYC. Reason given is police action.
The reporter did not say whether Pavonia is open and whether Newark to 33 is operating
As of 9:31 on 1010WINS Shadow Traffic, service is back to normal.
There was no (F) service to 14 St/6th Ave. I had to transfer at 34th St for the (Q) to Union Square. My boss said he saw ambulances on the scene at 14th/6th.
---Andrew
Whatever happened, it was declared over by 9:31am Shadow Trafic report.
I'm surprised - usually the radio doesn't bother to announce transit diversions.
This sort of thing shows the need for the Weehawken - Jersey City connection -- there needs to be some way for Hoboken passengers to get to midtown.
The workers still seem to be doing something on the HBLR construction at/near Hoboken, albeit at a less furious pace than when they first restarted.
As of 9:31 and every 10 minutes afterwards, Shadow Traffic on 1010WINS has been saying service is restored. And after a few times, they don't say it anymore.
> there needs to be some way for Hoboken passengers to get to
> midtown.
There's several bus lines from Hoboken Terminal to PABT. Hoboken is well connected in that regard. Downtown Jersey City less so- there's no direct PABT bus from the downtown/waterfront area, at least not yet. That's another thing they should consider in lieu of WTC PATH.
Hello my fellow Subtalkers.
Like everybody else, I am sickend by the events of Sept 11. Until now, I have refrained from looking at this site for information about the event. Since I am far removed from NYC, I would like to know if we have a concise piece of information identifying the destruction of the rapid transit facilities under the WTC area. Was anyone killed or injured in the subway levels, or does anyone know?
I see from this post that the tubes are out and the pix of the Cortland St station have the IRT line out and I guess the former IND Chambers St station is probably completely gone. I have an interesting story about the Chambers St station from my childhood that I would like to share with you all when the time is right again.
My condolences and prayers to those of you have suffered a personal loss as a result of the acts of infamy of Septerber 11, 2001.
Charles A. Warren (Mellow One)
The IND Chambers Street Station is still intact ( I should know because I saw it myself as the train that I was riding in went through the station ). The IRT station at Courtland St. is badly damaged, and will take years to repair. The BMT tunnels and station will re-open soon, as they sustained only minor damage. The PATH train station under the World Trade Center is intact, but partially flooded due to broken water mains and water from firefighting equipment. So far, that is it.
Thank you,
The news of Chambers St station is surprising.
Or, is there damage north or south of the station?
No damage to either the IND Chambers St-H&M -OR- the Chambers St-WTC stations, neither north nor south of the WTC site. Don't forget, these two stations are north and slightly east of #5 WTC, a building that is still somewhat intact, and no doubt were protected somewhat by the solidity of the Federal Building, which withstood the blow.
wayne
I had assumed that the station was directly under the WTC as the previous Hudson Terminal Building was directly over the station.
I have been gone from NYC for over 30 years now.
I have a very pre-WTC image of the area if anyone is interested at
http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/c112967/images/PREWTC.JPG
Whoa! The only thing I recognize in that picture is the Brooklyn Bridge.
How times have changed...
Did you note the 9th Ave El Station and the 6th Ave El another block east?
Hey Dave: I know you are going on vacation and Subtalk will be shut down, but can you tell me when this is going to take place? I want to prepare myself for withdrawal symptoms. And do have a great vacation.
They said it was an unspecified police action.
"A package left unattended under a bench on a train platform prompted authorities to shut down PATH service yesterday in the middle of the morning rush hour."
Star-Ledger story
http://www.msnbc.com/local/WNBC/NBCWVF11FSC.asp
[Everything is on the table at this point," O'Leary said. "There is an opportunity and the potential to make everything better than it was, with new and better connections."]
Let's hope so!
anyone see that set aka yankees world series train
6311-6315 is coupled to another set, I think (I dunno car numbers). And they aren't the world series anymore! They've been stripped of their pinstripe glory!
In August. I got on that Trainset on the (2). I broaded #6311 that was the lead car.
I found 6316-6320 laid up at Unionport Yard. Saw it from while on a passing train (another R142 of course!)
well i saw 6316 last car sitting at 238st .not in service.this was the first time in about 2 months
r142man
Seventh Avenue Express
The first paragraph of that Post article does not agree with the headline. The first paragraph states that the 2nd Ave line "COULD BE" fast-tracked while the headline suggests that its a done deal.
If you are there please reply to this message!!!
Check out the new section to nycsubway.org that I made. I took the pictures back when I was there in August, and one picture from last March. This subway just amazes me on how efficent and well run that system is. Give me some feedback here or by email on what you think of the section.
I also recommend that you use Alta Vista or Google to translate the offical site, because it's such a good site. I think they have a lot of pride in their subway (which is very understandable), and they want to show off all the cool things about it. I think they want everyone to know that they conform to ISO 9002 standards, they mention it everywhere, even on the trains! How many subways can claim that?
(Dave, you fixed that problem really fast!)
By the way:
http://www.nycsubway.org/sa/br/saopaulo
Thanks Robby!
-Dave
ISO 9002 is a tough standard to meet. You won't get there with TQM. :)
TQM is just the beginning. I wonder what it would cost NYCT to implement a program to meet ISO standards. Probably would be cheaper to tear down everything and start over :)
Heh. I'm sure the TWU rulebook would qualify. In its most reduced form, the ISO standards are nothing but a rulebook that sets forth how things are done. It's actually the diametrical opposite to "TQM" ... now TQM is pure Dilbertism ... but Train Dude seems to have bought into it. Maybe HE can make it work ... no offense, been there, done that, retired from state service before ISO came along. But I'd bet on ISO any day over TQM ... even the Japanese pulled the plug on the old quality circle, and culturally, if there was ever a place it wouldn't cause a Hatfield and McCoy episode, Japan would have been the place where it might have survived since consensus is a root function. It didn't there either.
Are you talking about the TQM step that some American guy made and the Japanese companies adopted it as gospel, which is the reason they make good cars? I can't believe they are moving away from it.
I think they want everyone to know that they conform to ISO 9002 standards, they mention it everywhere, even on the trains! How many subways can claim that?
Not many. IIRC, ISO 9002 is a manufacturing quality standard, not a services one :)
The ISO 9000 standard is mangament standard. While it's mainly associated with manufacturing, it can be applied anywhere.
Check the offical ISO site.
Anyone who reads Dilbert knows that all that ISO stuff is bullshit with it comes to management.
Anyone who reads Dilbert knows that all that ISO stuff is bullshit with it comes to management.
Oh, so you think Scott Adams is the foremost authority on ISO 9000?
(Oh, I forgot... you don't think.)
ISO 9000 is one way of assessing process quality. Like any other tool, it has its limitations, but it can be quite valuable. I have a great deal of experience in this area and can say, based on that experience, that it is a far better tool than any of the other process quality tools I have worked with - not perfect, mind you, but still a very valuable tool.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It shows that a company can meet ISO 9000 requirements. Just like the SAT's can show you can pass an SAT style test. Companies basically spend so much time trying to meet requirements they can tend to forget how to make money. Like porn, Uality can't be defined, but one knows it when one sees it.
omigod! agreeing w/ JM. As a regular victim of screw-ups perpetrated by an ISO 900x registered outfit (Graybar) I can tell you it doen't mean much to me as a customer. The system may mean that there is a company ploicy detailing procedures, but that does not mean they are followed. The periodic unfilled, wrongly filled or just plain lost orders (electical or data/telcom parts for my business) are not very different from the same problems with smaller outfits without the ISO banners hanging from the walls.
>>> The system may mean that there is a company ploicy detailing procedures, but that does not mean they are followed. <<<
So the failure of management to properly execute their policies reflects poorly on the policies? Seems to me it shows poor management who would do no better without the policies.
Tom
Hey guy, Howdy! I think you've grasped "Dilbert" ... heh. Sorry, couldn't resist a good healthy cheap shot. :)
The funny thing is, a good manager doesn't NEED tricks. Give your people what they need to get the job done, work WITH them instead of OVER them and never assign a task you won't do yourself and you'd be AMAZED at how much the folks you work with and have to sign time cards for are willing to work WITH you.
A GOOD manager who works with their folks instead of against them doesn't have much managing to do (other than some time to relay the stone tablets from on high and collaborate on how to follow the mood of the day from on high) and then get into what they enjoy doing with everyone else who enjoys doing. I've done it. The folks I worked with were HIGHLY productive and did their jobs well. We all did well for the cameraderie and the clearly defined "here's the rules, let's DO it" ...
TQM made me leap to the private sector and start up a software company with the wife (she's the CEO, I'm the donkey. Heh) where we can worry about the folks who buy (or won't buy) what we make. In any proper organization, if you actually CARE about the customer, you KNOW what's needed, and you just do it. Paycheck at the end of the week proves that you did it. In what we do, the AMOUNT of the paycheck is set by precisely how well we do it. I like tight phase lock loops. :)
>>> The funny thing is, a good manager doesn't NEED tricks <<<
That is true, and in a company like yours where management has a small span of control it is not so hard. But a large international corporation with thousands of lower level managers has to do better than just hope it hires or promotes from the work force natural managers.
I worked for a large expanding corporation in lower management in the ‘60s. Those named managers were the workers who showed good customer relations skills and appeared to have at least normal intelligence. At that time Peter Drucker was the guru of management techniques, and all lower managers went to seminars and retreats intended to teach his methods. This was the corporation's way to try to insure that its lower managers would improve and develop in accordance with the corporate culture, rather than flounder around. I think they did a pretty good job of developing managers. Other companies who consider that type of management development an expense rather than an investment might try to get the same results by sending memos and setting up SOPs, which will never be as effective if the lower managers do not understand and buy into the theory behind them.
Tom
No, my point is the banners don't mean squat. Quality of service has not significantly changed in over twenty years of my doing business with them. For my money the ISO is rght there with the g--d housekeeping seal (of being a regular advertiser).
It's like a big Market Frankford line that uses R "Slant" 40's. Pitty no railfan windows tho.
Nice job, Rob.
Way to go indeed. I have looked at their site but my Portugese is not very strong. Thanks for the good work
Gee ... Budd made a more advanced R-40 slant design after all .....
--Mark
Do you have any photos of these advanced design slant (R-40s)? If you do they might be very interesting to see.
#3 West End Jeff
Uh, it was meant as a joke ... the Sao Paulo subway cars have slanted ends like the slant R-40s do, but not as slanted and w/o the additonal hardware.
--Mark
If a BART train and an R40 had an affair, Sao Paulo's Budd cars would be the love child.
Maybe once the NYCTA retires the Slant R-40s they can give all of the additional hardware from those cars to Sao Paulo just to give them the Slant R-40 look that we became so accustomed to. Didn't you think that the Slant R-40s looked so marvelous with all of the extra hardware. I thought they did look marvelous with all of the extra hardware, NOT!!
#3 West End Jeff
Hey, I still think the slants could work if they gave the trains a truncaded slant nose like on the rail cars at Expo `67 in Montreal and put the slant only at the T/O-C/R end of the cars on A-B-B-A units (or A-B-B-B-A when the R-160s arrive).
The slant on the Expo `67 trains only went 2/3 of the way down from the roofline and then slanted back in towards the car on the bottom third, meaning the gap was far less severe than on the R-40s and wouldn't require all the modifictions the Slants got.
If they used that design with the Slant R-40s they might not have needed all of the extra hardware that they wound up with through the years. However the Slant R-40s are so ugly they actually look quite bizzare.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the Slants look positively bizarre with all the gates and grab-irons and whatnot. They are so ugly with all that junk on their mugs that they are positively beautiful.
wayne
I would have to agree with you that they are the urliest looking cars that are in use in the New York City subway system and they're the most bizzare looking cars in the system.
#3 West End Jeff
Gee, I would have thought everyone would at least glance at my new section.
You gotta love those shovelnoses! And look, no safety gates! No handles! No nothing! One small step into oblivion.
wayne
from channel 2 news:
The BMT will be down for about 6 months. The IRT will be down until plans for the WTC area are finalized.
The current NY Division ERA Bulletin advises track 1 and 4 are listed as out of service from South of Chambers to Rector.
"The current NY Division ERA Bulletin advises track 1 and 4 are listed as out of service from South of Chambers to Rector"
Go to Chambers St. on the IRT. The northbound and probably southbound (1)(9) tracks are rusted ! I don't think those rails were rusted even in the transit strikes. Wierd man !!
Bill "Newkirk"
As I recall, during the transit strikes, the TA management ran empty trains on each line daily to prevent the tracks from rusting.
Did you notice the bumper blocks on the SF bound side???
What happened this AM? 880 radio traffic reported 1 out in Manhattan (ended at Atlantic) and 2 running on 5 from Nevins to 149 due to "power Problems."
Pelham Bay Daves- do you know what happened?
I heard about it too. Perhaps the power problems were in lower Manhattan. A person who works at a local Chinese resteruant says the power is frequently interrupted in Chinatown since the Sept.11 attack.
ShadowTraffic labeled it a power problem
From No.6 Pelham Express
I don't know what happened on the AM's but at around 5:45PM a Southbound No.2 train went Brakes In Emergency entering Atlantic Ave. caused big delays into Brooklyn. The train was there for about 25 Minutes.
From what I heard from the AM C/Rs on the 1 line, there was a train stuck in the Clark St tubes and then ten minutes later, a BIE further uptown.
That had to be the problem. I was waiting for a northbound deuce at 125th yesterday, and all I got was eight sraight trains coming through; two were OOS, the other six were 3s. The platofrm was really crowded by the time a 2 (made up of R142s) got there. Almost a half hour later.
This morning, as my Rohr train was approaching the crossover at Medical Center, we had a white signal. Just seconds later, it changed to red over red, cab signals went to 0/0, and the train passed by at about 33 MPH. This was the first time I had been on a train running a red, but the train didn't even do anything out of the ordinary. Almost immediately after passing, the cab signals showed green again, and we continued. All ATO. T/O was as baffled as I was.
Then, on the Orange line, when I recorded the unit number, the T/O opened the cab door and told me w/o proper ID, it is illegal to do so. I said OK, and recorded the number (3076) after alighting.
Then, once upstairs waiting for the Red line, a guy came up as a Rohr train to Silver Spring was leaving and I was photographing, and did the routine the guy did with me in NYC last weekend. "That is illegal." He went on to say he was some retired government official en route to the Pentagon but never showed ID (he claimed to have tons of it and tons of power). I explained to him the rule pertaining to photography at which point he said it was legal. Some bystander started to get involved, arguing for my side. Eventually, I convinced the guy about what I was doing and he left. No police presence this time but it didn't really matter.
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
-- "Gold Hat"
There was some sort of tv crew on the platform at Union Station around 12:30 today. They were filming people coming off of a Shady Grove bound train.
I saw only one uniformed transit officer, and he was also at Union Station. Nothing at Metro Center, which surprised me.
Its kind of funny that you mentioned that you were on 3076 because I was on its pair, 3077, around 2:15 leaving Metro Center heading to Ballston.
That was the train I was on. I was at Smithsonian at 2:01 and that was the first train to arrive. 3077 was the 2nd car of the train, 3076 was the first.
If you were really paying attention to people walking by on the platform, I was wearing a gray sweatshirt saying SUMMIT across the front, kakhi pants, black backpack and I had my camera around my neck. I was walking briskly towards the Glenmont to see the Sales Office (which was closed) and to get away from the T/O so I could write the unit number before I forgot it. I wasn't looking for other railfans at the time so nothing really caught my eye.
One more way to confirm we had the same train:
This T/O had no special announcing style and this appeared to be his only oddity:
When entering Metro Center, he said "Thank you for riding Metro's Orange Line, have a great day." Maybe you heard this on the external speakers or he did it at Rosslyn or Ballston, both pretty major stations. If he did, you got him. I would describe his physical appearance if you were in 3076 but since you weren't, I won't.
That's pretty funny. When I was coming off the Red Line Train from Union Station, I heard the one downstairs pull in so I was running down the middle, non working escalator behind these two slow pokes. The side destination sign on 3077 was off so I took a real quick glance of the overhead sign in the station and could see "FAX", so I knew that was the Vienna/Fairfax train. I had a green coat and black jeans on.
I did notice that the driver had kind of a deep voice and did sound pretty monotone.
Since I was running, I unfortunately didn't see specific people.
That's a shame that he gave you such a hard time when you rode. I guess everyone is pretty jumpy these days, but still.
I had worse upstairs. In all honesty, I think he was worried I was going to report him. I decided not to start forcing him to explain the logic because I wasn't really in the mood for arguments. It seems to me, if one can't record ones travels, they can't report problems with service, decreasing the quality of service on the system. Orange and Green Line operators always give me the hardest time. They have the worst announcements and worst additude towards passengers. From best to worst, the top three are Red, Blue, and Yellow.
I think I heard the train from Union Station pull in or leave. I saw two people running for the 3rd car, 3166 or 3167 (I know it was that pair) but they were both women. Maybe we shall meet again sometime. I might do some fanning this weekend with the free rides but I haven't figured out if and where.
Yeah, I agree that with the Orange Line, especially, they have a move 'em in move 'em out mentality and you better step up the pace or they leave you. There have been a couple operators that are very informative, almost to the point of too informative. I seem to always have one of them when I come home from the MCI Center for events there. The other one I had really early on a weekday morning that kept explaining to us the reason we were held up between Court House and Rosslyn was that his "Blue Line leader" was running late due to slippery rails.
I agree with your rankings though. I have a feeling they are such due to more tourists riding the Red/Blue/Yellow then I'd say the Orange becuase of the dual lines that serve Smithsonian and lastly the Green because there aren't too many places a tourist would need it for unless they were staying at hotels in College Park or Greenbelt.
I'm sure those operators pay their dues during the weekends when the drunk Univ. of MD students come home.
That would definitely be cool to do some railfanning sometime.
It definately has to do with tourism. The red line really doesn't hit many tourist attractions but people in Montgomery County would raise hell if they got crappy service, myself included.
If you get a good orange line operator, it is your lucky day. If you get a good green line operator, I don't know what happened to cause that.
If you're trainspotting, then maybe you should keep a short list; which is a list of cars I HAVEN'T seen yet; when I see it I circle the unit number. Not in my 31 years of trainspotting has anyone ever told me that it is illegal to record or write down a unit number. And this includes DC, where I have spotted almost all the cars.
Back in 1993 I got a rude awakening from a T/O for leaning against the cab door to watch out the front. He stopped the train between Federal Triangle and Smithsonian and was none too happy that I had distracted him.
wayne
Was this manual control? The operators are much nicer since the trains returned to ATO, it seems.
The following runs will be effective at the beginning of the new pick (currently November 11th, but is subject to change).
Departures from 179 St:
7:12am
7:31am
7:51am
8:11am
--------------
3:57pm
4:16pm
4:36pm
Departures from WTC:
5:08pm
5:28pm
6:40pm
7:20pm
Does this imply WTC will be open by then?
No, it just implies that the E's start out of WTC, not necessarily in passenger service.
Is it running Hillside exp? My guess is probably not.
Does this mean that "V" train service will be postponed?? Or will "E" trains just supplement Hillside service as of 11/11 and "V" trains will still start at Forest Hills??? Tony
From the onset, the plan was to have a few E trains go to/from 179th peak hours due to capacity at Parsons-Archer, effective 11/11. The northern terminals for Queens Boulevard Lines are as follows, effective 11/11:
E-Parsons-Archer or 179th Street, rush hours; Parsons-Archer only all other times
F-179 Street
G-Court Square, rush hours, weekday middays; 71st Avenue all other times
R-71st Avenue, all times except nites, 36th Street (Brooklyn) nites
V-71st Avenue, all times of operation
It's actually going to be effective sometime after November 11. The pick effective date's been postponed for an indefinite length of time due to the World Trade Center attack-related service changes.
David
I was aware of that...
I've noticed in the past few weeks when riding the Boston subway, that the conductor now makes several announcemnets to remind people to take their belongings with them when they leave the train. Do these announcements have anything to do with security, since nobody wants an "unclaimed" package on the train, or was this all just a coincidence, and should be taken as a friendly reminder so people don't lose their belongings? -Nick
Probably both. Some operators make a habit of it to begin with.
On the MBTA (aka "More Big Taxes Ahead"; "More Big Trouble Astern"):
Train Operators are still called Motormen, regardless og gender.
Conductors are known as Guards or if you prefer "Gaads."
Sound like someone is there to go to school!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I've heard the automated announcement "Don't forget your belongings" on the Red Line's 01800-series cars. So it's probably just a coincidence.
"Take your belongings" was always supposed to be used a couple of times per trip. The increase in its usage is due to a memo to all employees a few days after 9/11. It is the most noticeable of the steps taken for security, but by no means the only one.
I have added 90 exclusive photos direct from NYCT-MOW to my website www.nycrail.com of the damage from the World Trade Center collapse. This includes both IND and IRT (Lex and 7th Ave.) Photos.
-Harry
Click below to see it:
The Other Side of the Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
The View South Of Chambers St...
amazing photos
neat pix of horrible s--t
Wow the damage is just, unbelievable. It is amazing how fast they restored service to the flooded part of the IRT and cleaned up the debris in the station. The workers deserve alot of credit.
Man those beams really punctured the tunnel on the 1/9. If anyone knows, do those beams come from 7 WTC or the towers?
Harry, Great shots ... thanks for sharing !
Mr t
I like that picture of that R-32 with the 4 sign.
RE: That photo of the pump car......Where exactly was the location ?
Also, was Chambers St or Park Place under water ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The pic of the pump train is from the Franklin St. station.
"The pic of the pump train is from the Franklin St. station"
Okay, now this raises another question. The (1)(9) rails at Chambers were rusted, and Franklin St. was under water, so I assume Chambers was too. Next stop south of Chambers is Park Place,if Chambers was under water, would Park Place have been completely under water ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Park Place was under water. In fact you can still see the water line.
How much under water was it? Was the water above platform lavel?
"Park Place was under water. In fact you can still see the water line."
Okay, I gotta check this out.
Thanks,
Bill "Newkirk"
Well Fred brought it up the other day about the Dodgers Beating the Yankees for the first and last time in a Subway Series. So her goes. 45 Years ago today. DON LARSON PITCHES A PERFECT GAME AGAINST THE BROOKLYN BUMS IN A WORLD SERIES So there
While your at it, in 1921 City's first trolley-bus service begins.
I saw that on NY1's website. It was also one year today (1957) later a deal was worked out to move the Dodgers to LA from Brooklyn.
Damn it, you beat me to the punch. I wrote Bob that before I read your post. You are a fan.
yOU ARE GETTING OLD
Here goes another one Bob. Forty Four years ago today, the Brooklyn Dodgers announced they were moving to Los Angeles. Wasn't that a shitty piece of news? October 8 is not a happy time for old Brooklynites. BTW, would you guys like the Dodgers back? You can have them.
Why shoudl Brooklyn take the Dodgers Back,They have the Cyclones
And the Cyclones are a better bargain than the Dodgers. BTW, are you aware the Brooklyn Cyclones were league champions this year?
Yes
Yes in fact I am wearing my Cyclone T Shirt today because it is cool down here(weather wise)
Gil Hodges walloped one to Death Valley that Mickey Mantle managed to run down. That shot would have gone completely out of Ebbets Field.
Of course, Bobby Thompson's shot heard 'round the world would have been an easy out at Ebbets Field. It just barely got into the stands at the 315-foot mark. Quoting Leo Durocher, "There were very few home runs hit into the lower deck at the Polo Grounds because of the overhang from the upper deck. Only a line shot - a rising line drive - ever went in there. This was far too low to hit the overhang, and it was a sinking line drive. The fans out there told me later it got over by no more than the width of the baseball."
Well you can thank Charlie Dressen, the Dodger Manager for that. He won the toss and chose to play the first game at Ebbets Field, and then two at the Polo Grounds, if necessary. If the game had been played at Ebbets Field, the Dodgers would have won. In fact, if he had thrown Clem Labine that first game at Ebbets Field, which he didn't because he was in Dressen's doghouse, the Dodgers would have won that game, and the next one when they scored ten runs. There wouldn't even have been three games played. That's show biz.
Roger Kahn wrote in The Boys of Summer that after that 1951 season, the Dodgers replaced their bullpen coach. Supposedly, he told Dressen that Erskine was bouncing his curve in that third playoff game and recommended Branca.
The previous season, the third base coach got canned after he waved Cal Abrams home in a game against the Phillies and Abrams got thrown out at the plate by some three yards.
That man was Milt Stock and that was an idiotic thing for him to do. It would have been bases loaded and no outs if he had held Abrams at third base with Robinson, Furillo and Hodges coming up. As it was, centerfielder Richie Ashburn had been playing in because he thought Duke Snider would bunt with runners on first and second and no one out.
As far as the '51 fiasco, if Charlie Dressen had not put Clem Labine in his doghouse and had given him the two starts he missed in late September, there would have been no playoff.
If Hermanski had still been in left field instead of traded to the Cubs, he probably would have caught the ball. Did Pafko even try?
The wall was too high. There was no way to catch it. I believe the wall was between fifteen and twenty feet.
I didn't remember the wall being that high, but I could only go by the picture I saw.
The left field wall at the Polo Grounds was pretty high at the spot where the ball left the field. I've seen a photo of Pafko looking up helplessly. There was no way he could have caught it. He would have had to jump ten feet or more straight up.
12 1/2 feet high
Amazing how the perfect game was on Oct. 8 and the Series ended shortly thereafter, while today the playoffs haven't even started on 10/8.
How can the quality of play be any good when the games are played so late in the year and at night when the temps can be down in the low 40's.
I know, I know the key word is MONEY ! ! ! !
Here is one for you and any old Brooklyn Dodger fans out there. Forty Five years ago today, October 9, was the last Brooklyn Dodger victory. Clem Labine outdueled Bob Turley in a 10 inning game and won 1-0 on Jackie Robinson's last hit as a Dodger. The next day the Yankees won 9-0 to clinch the seven game series.
Yup he (Robinson) was traded to the Giantsa, and then he retired
And by 1956, Sal Maglie was with the Dodgers. He hated Robinson while he was with the Giants, then the two of them wound up being teammates.
Robinson decided to retire because he felt the Giants needed youth, not a 37-year-old veteran.
I have been puzzling over this for some time, but I really want someone to accurately answer this question regarding Arrow III's for me.
1) On many Arrow III trains inside the vestibule, I would note a black "plaque" type sheet of material about the size 3" by 4" and it would say "This vehicle under lease of .... since 1992 (?).."
Sorry, I forgot the co.'s name, but can anyone give me any descriptions concerning this?
2) Another white sticker would say "This car overhauled by... " (It's been a long time, I forgot the details. )
Any descriptions on this?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
They were overhauled by ABB years back. As much maliagned as the overhaul was, the cars do run pretty well. I really don't know the issues behind the supposed gearbox breakage and speed restrictions, though I've heard it's really that the inverters overheat at higher speeds, not surprising given the cars are only 700 or so HP for a pair.
Thanks. and some questions:
1) Who and what is ABB?
2) What's the "Gearbox breakage" you mention?
3) What are "inverters"?
4) What is "HP"?
By now you might think I am an unknowledgable person, but I'm not old yet so I want to take this time to learn something I haven't been taught or known before.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Okay, Railfan Pete...
I can only answer the first question.
"Who or what is ABB?"
ABB stands for Asea Brown Boveri, the manufacturer of SEPTA's suburban trolleys and NJ Transit's ALP-44 electric locomotives. They are a manufacturer and remanufacturer of rail cars.
That's all I know...
Cleanairbus
ABB made the RT. 100 cars, not the trolleys. i think ADTranz made the ALP's as it came after the merger.
ABB made the all of the ALP-44's, it would have been ADtranz who built the ALP-46's, but of course ADtranz is now part of Bombardier.
Asea a Swedish firm merged w/ a Swiss firm Brown. Boveri becomes ABB, in tern the railway business of this group was sold to Daimler (Mercedes) Benz becoming A(ses)D(aimler), Tranz(port?), then this division has recently been bought byBombardier.
Trust plates, Leasing info. For many years RR equipment has by ICC (and sucessor agency) rules carried aignage (earlier physical plates, later stenciled paint) indicating the financial institution(s) which "owned" the equipment and "leased" it to the rr. The one I wanted for my collection was a stainless steel plate JP Morgan owner, lessor affixed to a C B & Q car built for the 1949 California Zephyr. Such plates even appeared on freight cars.
I hope this clears up your questions. Feel free to e-mail me off line if you need further info.
From what Lexcie has told me ABB was formerly BREL or British Railway Engineering Ltd. (I think). ABB was bought by ADTranz.
There are gears in between the electric motor and the axles. I am assuming that they can break under high stress.
Inverters are a component of AC traction traction systems that alter the wave signature of the current. Probably by inverting it, but I am not sure.
HP is Horsepower, the standard unit of Power which is energy per time. One HP is equal to 744 Watts or one average sized equine.
You are extremely unknowledgeable and should spend time reading some railroad related literature. There are some very helpful online FAQ's. Do a Google Search for "Railroad FAQ". There is nothing wrong w/ asking questions, but asking too basic a question makes you look like an idiot.
ABB was Asea Brown Boveri. Asea is a Sweedish electric company that made locomotives (noteaby the AEM-7s), and has extensive experience in high power semiconductors. Brown Boveri? Beats me who they were. Swiss I think.
Inverters work off of pulse width modulation. Or at least some do.
Brown & Boveri is the part that came from BREL.
2) What's the "Gearbox breakage" you mention?
The usual arrangement is for the traction motor to be connected to a pinion gear through a flexible coupling> The pinion turns a 'bull' gear that is mounted on one end of each axle. Most times the flexible coupling or pinion fails.
3) What are "inverters"?
Inverters are either electronic or electro-mechanical devices that convert DC to AC of either fixed or variable frequency.
4) What is "HP"?
Horse Power or Hewlett Packard or Hey paul etc.
Lower case hp refers to heypaul, thankyouverymuch! The rest is correct as per the TDPs (Train Dude Practices)
LOL Avid
Any word on the leasing info.? Or should I ask an expert outside of SubTalk?
Railfan Pete.
There is no mystery about leasing. Manyrail properties use leased cars. Cars are purchased by one organization and leased to a rail property. The rail property gets the car without large capital outlay. Corporation gets income and depreciation write-off. Among other leasors are MTA-LIRR (Some M-1s) and NYCT (Some R-62s and R-68s).
What was the deal for MTA to receive Comet IV car #5009?
I've found out that Comet IV #5010 was also formerly owned by MTA. This car has a bright orange stripe painting pattern on the front of it, like most Comet III's, but it's brighter. Also, "5010" is located a little above the middle height of the portion of the train, unlike many others where numbers are at the top.
Any more cars that were returned to NJ TRANSIT service after serving the MTA? Any details?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
In the tunnels located adjacent to Grove St. station, when the train reaches outside and throughout the trip to Journal Square, I see complete sets of "catenary wire structure" for each of the PATH tracks located there.
The actual catenary wires were taken down with many of their resistors, but some of the cut fragments lay hanging on the resistors.
1) Does anyone have descriptions to this catenary's presence? What was it formerly used for? Any other details?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
PATH is an FRA railroad because it used to share trackage with real PRR freight and passenger trains. The line from Newark to JSQ was part of the PRR passenger line to Harbourside Terminal and freight line to Harcimus Cove. This route was electrified for PRR freight and passenger units.
I dont know if it is anywhere else on this site but how fast does the PATH get under the hudson river? you leave Hoboken really slow and then pick up to a good speed until right before Christopher.
Also any word about the new PATH Cars? Any idea what they would look like?
All I know is that they can go as fast as about 50-60mph in the Hudson River tubes...
The new PA-5 cars have not been ordered nor designed as of yet(I don't think the Port Authority contracted anyone to build them just yet), as far as I know...
Cleanairbus
"Also any word about the new PATH Cars? Any idea what they would look like?"
The proposed PA-5s should be very similar if not identical to the PA-4s with AC traction to boot. The PA-5s are supposed to replace the PA-1,2 & 3s. The PA-3s, even thought the newest of the PA 1,2, &3 cars, are to be retired first, because the 3s have all sorts of problems.
As far as the 9/11 attack is concerned, don't know how this will affect the new car purchase.
Bill "Newkirk"
The PA-5's will have fold-away full-width cabs.
I wish they would just get R142's in 3 and 4 car sets.
The PA3 (Hawker-Siddeley) are structurally inferior. A hard couple will cause the doors to malfunction. They will go first. They would go now if the mechanical people could have their way.
God damit. What is with these full width cabs.
One person train operation
CCTV!
Also, they can't buy R142's because PATH needs to meet FRA specs.
No they don't.
The buff-strength requirement for PATH has been eliminated.
Maximum posted underground speed is 40; aboveground the maximum posted speed is 60. It is possible to exceed these for brief periods depending on where you are in the system vs. the timers.
It'd be hard for me to tell without either speedometers or a way to gauge distance in the tunnel.
Pardon the quibble, but they also shared track all the way from JSQ to the Portal. Some of the trackage running around the Portal and onto the embankment leading to the Railroad Avenue El is still in place.
They shared everything except JSQ station tracks up to WALDO interlocking, which is just West of JSQ and things changed slight after the PRR abandonned the Harbourside Terminal.
According to Governor Pataki, beginning tomorrow AM, the National Guard will begin patrolling Penn Station and Grand Central Station.
I was in the Penn Station area on Saturday. There were a considerable number of NYS troopers at the 34th entrance to the LIRR level. There was also a notable police presence in midtown as I made my way to and from the Gotham Center on 5th near 34th.
Midtown was not near as empty as I expected. There was a line of people snaking out to the street, waiting to get into the Empire State Building and gaggles of tourists were evident along 34th Street, gawkng, studying subway maps, and speaking various languages.
It was good to see. Not everyone is afraid to visit the Big Apple.
We had a large group of people go to N.Y.C.here from Oregon, if i some vacation i'd be with them.....we don't like being scared away by some cowards who like to distroy people and buildings....
Cowards? That's something I disagree with - I'd say they had a lot of balls to even try something like that and actually do it sucessfully too.
-Robert King
Of course, you are right. Not every nut job is a coward. It takes a very special kind of person to have the brass and the talent and skills and the warped mind to do this sort of thing. Thank God these qualities don't coincide more often.
My term coward is that these killers don't have the balls to come out and face you and challenge you..they have to get you behind your back and to hit buildings with thousands of people inside...yes they have balls granted but lets see how these assholes fight when our ground forces meet them on there own ground,let them run into there caves....saves the people from burying the bastards as those caves will most likly just cave in after we send in some missles.
My term coward is that these killers don't have the balls to come out and face you and challenge you..they have to get you behind your back and to hit buildings with thousands of people inside...yes they have balls granted but lets see how these assholes fight when our ground forces meet them on there own ground,let them run into there caves....saves the people from burying the bastards as those caves will most likly just cave in after we send in some missles.
That's not being a coward, it's called being smart. Why should they challenge you? You might hurt them. How do you win a knife fight? Pull out a gun. It's the winners who write histroy so you do whatever it takes to win and just re-write yourself in a favourable light.
Jersey Mike's on top of this. Terrorists simply are not going to phone up the white house to arrange a gentleman's duel with Mr. Bush because they know damn well that Mr. Bush will get right on the phone and order up an ambush to take place at the agreed time and location for the duel.
-Robert King
You mean GCT as in the RR Terminal.
yes I do. Although at 6:30 AM I did not see any at Penn Station. NYPD had a very heavy presence in the subways this AM....
At noon at GCT I saw 2 Guardsman with a MNRR cop near the info booth. I'm on the 441 NH Express I'll see how many are there then.
They have to be called by the Gov. Pataki not the President. It is a violation of the Constitution to give Police powers to the Guard if they are federalized something our Founding Fathers did to stop Coup attempts.
That is why Bush "suggested" to the various governors to call their Guard units for the airports and other public places.
Guard troops are reservists but they not only swear to protect the US Constitution they take a separate oath to protect the state constitution (or commonwealth. They receive the same training as other reservists.
Not everything is in the Constitution. I was curious about this one, so I went looking. A couple of minutes paging through my handy, dandy paperback copy revealed that there is no such prohibition in the Constitution. To the contrary, it says that "Congress shall have power" to, among other things, "provide for the common defense," "provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions," and "provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States."
A quick websearch netted a mention of "the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act" in an AP article describing Congressional testimony by Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz.
"Wolfowitz also said it's time to re-examine the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act that limits the military's domestic role to prevent the armed forces from turning into the nation's policemen."
18 USC Sec. 1385 is the current codification of that act as amended from time to time. It says: "Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."
This law was last amended in 1994. "Express authorization" for such use is found in various federal statutes covering a variety of situations.
I'll leave it to you to figure out if this law had anything to do with GWB's reasoning.
Can someone tell me why, on some of the major streets in Manhattan,(Broadway etc.)there are enormous containers of Nitrogen. It would appear that they are feeding something below ground (The subway???) however no one could give me a straight answer.
Why the intense heat in each underground station and no AC like the trains?
Are there not speed limits on the tracks and why do these folks plow in so quickly into the stations? In Edmonton we have speed limits (50mph max on long open areas, and we have limiters on the tracks that detect train speed. If there is speeding the magnetic trips and that trains stops NOW - triggering the Control station to write up the driver and also causing the wheels to flat spot which angers the train maintenance folks.
Finally, why is it that there is the smell of (diesel or something similar) in these stations. Are the brakes of the trains and there dust or the street pollution falling in the grates???
Thanks you
P
The enormous tanks of Nitrogen is to cool the cables (Power, telephone, usually telephone) beneath.
It could be just compressed and not Liquid.
Isn't the Earth composed mostly of Nitrogen? Seems I learned that long ago in my Physics class.
Air is 78% Nitrogen. The earth's crust is largely silicon dioxide.
Thank you STG, you're a man of many talents.
I don't claim to know the reason, but perhaps those who can see what's being done with them can infer what the purpose is. Nitrogen doesn't burn in a nasty way in a fire unless it's very very hot.
But the BEST way to get rid of oxygen is to replace it with pure nitrogen. If you like wine, a blanket of nitrogen put into an open bottle keeps it from oxidizing and I would GUESS (I have no fire training other than TA training) that if you wanted to prevent a fire or try to snuff one, pumping in large quantities of nitrogen would starve a fire.
I *still* remember the "fire triangle" bit - fuel, heat, oxygen ... take away any one and a fire can't "live" ...
Yor came the closest Kev. The nitrogen is to create a positve pressure in telephone cable. Sometimes there maybe as many a 2500 pair of wire in a cable. The nitrogen(non-flamible) keeps water out and thus possible shortcircuts betweem pairs. This avoids crosstalk and static as wel as dead lines. It also drives out water in cables. Like most things in life, cable splices fail, and the seals on the splice will fail over time. Heavey rain will flood manholes and seep into the splices and cables.
avid reader
I remember when I worked for the PSC, there was one guy (he's retired now) who worked in "facilities planning" who had an X terminal. He'd sit there calling up the pressure levels constantly across the state to see if there were "leaks" when a rash of complaints of outages would occur. Harry wasn't a well man at times - he obsessed with his readings. Hell of a nice guy - one of few that actually CARED if things were working.
Since the original post didn't specify where the cylinders were or what they were doing, I expected that they were located around WTC itself and may have been dumping Nitrogen "down the hole" there to help suppress the lingering fires underground. Now that I know they're for the empire city subway, yep - makes sense. Sounds like someone's got some bonnet work to do down yonder.
Actually, I've seen them for years, scattered all over town, with their little hoses threaded down manholes.
For what New Yorkers all across the state pay for phone service, it's one thing if they're there while the manholes are open and being worked on, it's a SAD story if they're left behind semi-permanently. It indicates an unwillingness to properly repair or replace cable that's "holy" and repair fittings where leakage occurs. It sounds as though there aren't enough CWA members for the workload at hand if it's normal to see cylinders all over town. Emergency setups shouldn't be a way of life.
I should have been a little clearer. I didn't mean to imply that individual locations each would have a tank for years. I meant that a tank being in a particular location for a number of weeks (or months?) is a phenomenon I've seen all over town over the years.
Having worked for the PSC, I can tell you that it's normal for such a deployment to go on for a couple of DAYS while you're splicing up and resealing, but to go on for WEEKS or longer would have been an invite up to Albany for an explanation not too many years ago. Of course, these days, the laissez fairy is blind. :)
Can someone tell me why, on some of the major streets in Manhattan,(Broadway etc.)there are enormous containers of Nitrogen. It would appear that they are feeding something below ground (The subway???) however no one could give me a straight answer.
Nitrogen is used as an inert gas to drive moisture out of cables. The telcos do this a lot.
Why the intense heat in each underground station and no AC like the trains?
The heat comes from braking and air conditioning systems on trains.
Are there not speed limits on the tracks and why do these folks plow in so quickly into the stations? In Edmonton we have speed limits (50mph max on long open areas, and we have limiters on the tracks that detect train speed. If there is speeding the magnetic trips and that trains stops NOW - triggering the Control station to write up the driver and also causing the wheels to flat spot which angers the train maintenance folks.
There most certainly are speed limits in the NYCTA, they are enforced by timers and trip arms. Anyway, it's been argued here a lot, but the subway sure feels a lot slower now than it did 10 years ago :(
Finally, why is it that there is the smell of (diesel or something similar) in these stations. Are the brakes of the trains and there dust or the street pollution falling in the grates???
Brake dust, homeless piss, dead rats....
I'll cast the deciding vote on Nitrogen since I have experience
in outside plant telco work. When there is a crack in the
jacket of an underground telephone cable, moisture seeps in and
eventually causes short circuits between the pairs. It is usually
infeasible to repair the breach immediately because it is in the
middle of the street somewhere. Instead, the fault is located
electrically and then a pressure plug is placed around the cable
jacket at the nearest manhole. Pressurized nitrogen gas from
the tank up in the street is fed down into the manhole and into
the pressure plug, where it permeates the cable and pushes out
moisture and oxygen, thus arresting the corrosion and removing the
short circuit. Usually you'll see the tank there for many months
until a relief cable can be pulled and spliced in.
It is a bit more complicated than that. A large part of the outside plant (telco-speak for the cables in the street) is pressurized with nitrogen from the central office end. At various locations, including both splices in manholes (or on poles in the 'burbs) and at large customer premises, there are pressure transducers which report the observed pressure to a central monitoring system (they use spare pairs in the phone cable they're on). This lets the phone company locate a leak with reasonable accuracy (rather than just seeing the pressure drop at the CO end). The tanks are to provide additional pressure when there is a large enough leak that pressure can't be maintained from the CO end. And that isn't a big leak - there isn't that much room in the cables for the nitrogen to flow.
Originally, the cables were lead-jacketed with cotton insulation on the individual wires. Any moisture would short out and/or corrode the wires. Both the jacket and the individual wires evolved over the years - the jackets became plastic, while the individual wires changed from cotton insulation to paper to plastic. I've seen all of the possible combinations over the years (yes, even lead w/ plastic).
Nobody's ever pulled up with a pickup truck, and decided they'd really like to take an enormous nitrogen tank home to the wife and kids?
I hear they can be hours of amusement, guaranteed to break the ice at parties....
I thought that helium was the gas used for such entertainment. Nitrogen works as well?
-Robert King
Maybe they're thinking of "nitrous" which used to propel "whippits" ...
Nobody's ever pulled up with a pickup truck, and decided they'd really like to take an enormous nitrogen tank home to the wife and kids?
I hear they can be hours of amusement, guaranteed to break the ice at parties....
Also useful if Grandma is in a bad way, and you want to go the Walt Disney route after she passes ... of course, you'd have to liquify the nitrogen first.
That's Nitrous Oxide dipwad. Nitrogen dosen't break the ice at parties, it makes the ice at parties, provided it is in liquid form. My physics club makes LN2 ice cream al the time.
I'm amazed, you must have been able to somehow see the word "idiot" plastered on my forehead.
I know what Nitrogen is, and I know what Nitrous is, and if I'd meant "Nitruous," I would have written "Nitrous."
But thanks for stepping in and helping me out.
Sincerely,
Dipwad
Sorry, I get that alot from people when I am carrying around a flask of LN2 and it has begun to rub me the wrong way. It is amazing how few people know what makes up 78% of the air.
No problem.
I think because on ER they always put people on an Oxygen mask, general folks just associate Oxygen with breathing by itself. And lets not forget those "Oxygen bars" in LA LA LAnd.
No, but watch the photo studios. They would love to have a spare Nitogen tank that came free.
Thanks for expanding on the story. All of the new underground
copper cables pulled today (and for the last few decades) are
"PIC" (plastic insulated copper) and gel-filled ("icky-PIC").
The gel is forced into the jacket during manufacture and it
prevents water ingress. These rarely go bad mid-span unless
some major mechanical trauma occurs. However, under the streets
of NY, there is still a lot of paper and lead cable. Ever try
to splice really old paper cable, where none of the wires are
colored???!!!
Almost all of the wires were color-coded, at least when the cable was manufactured (they may have faded). When I started, I was assigned to splicing [then] 50-year-old lead cables where the "color code" was the varying patterns of red thread woven into the white cotton jacket on each wire. I've worked with icky pic as well - largest I ever did with that was 1800 pair (copper) and 216 fiber. But fiber has gone way beyond that (it was pushing 1000 strands when I stopped paying attention).
I worked on a bunch of older German machines where all of the wire had faded to GREEN! (all ground, I guess!)
Of course at the time they were designed, the German standard for equipment ground was RED! better off to have faded, in that case.
Were they cotton covered or pulp/paper covered conductors?
I've seen OSP cable with thin (26ga) wires covered
by thin paper. Every wire was white! The binder groups
were not coded either, you had to know based on the position
of the group in a polar coordinate system which it was.
Once ribbon fiber came out, counts went through the roof
because splicing is such a breeze (i.e. if you are a big outfit
and can afford the megabucks for the splicer).
Now, steering this back to rail, ever work with direct burial
signal cable (like Okonite?) The stuff is about 10% copper and 90%
insulation! A 17 conductor cable is as thick as a 400 pair BKMA.
The Track-Twist definitely fits that bill !
They were cotton-covered. I have a bunch of cut ends up at my Dad's from when I worked as a splicer. I'll try to fish one out and bring it with the next time I come to the museum (which I'll have to coordinate with Amanda's schedule).
Later cables were paper.
The large-count outside cables I've seen are _not_ ribbon - they're loose fibers in tubes of 12. The only time I see ribbon is on large-count inside fibers. But I don't do much of that work any more. Those splicers _are_ cool, though - you flop a pair of ribbons in there, push "full auto" and you get the projected losses for each of the 12 splices, and you can say "do it" or "try again".
Regarding fat signal cables, oddly enough I saw a piece of one on a flatcar just tonight. Amazing stuff - looks like a bunch of #6 in a rubber jacket that looks like a power feeder cable.
Great, hope to see you up there soon!
Telco is using a lot of OSP ribbon these days. Loose tube is
still being made but because of the ease of splicing, ribbon is
preferred for large count cables.
Wrt direct burial signal cable, the insulation on each conductor
is very thick. An individual 14ga wire (typical for low-current
control and indication circuits) with insulation has an OD about
the same as 6ga THHN. Then the whole bundle is wrapped in several
interleaved layers of impregnated cloth and corrugated copper,
aluminum or steel, followed by a thick polyethylene outer jacket.
Not exactly light and flexible.
seems the pd has gotten a few calls about these 'strange' looking tanks - though i've seen them around town for at least a year now... whoever (phone, cable, etc) is responsible for them didn't seem to get word out to the pd, and now plenty of people who don't know are suspecting the worst and calling them in.
I'm sure that people could panic, mistaking "Nitrogen" for "Nitroglycerine" given the situation in New York at the moment. A tank labeled Nitroglycerine would definately merit a call to the police.
-Robert King
I remember seeing one years ago (before someone clued me in), merrily hissing away, without any label on it. In that situation, with an unlabeled gas canister that I can't identify leaking into the atmosphere on a public street in the middle of a densely populated area, I'll call 911 10 times out of 10.
Dunno if you saw the answer yet, but I asked a phone company tech about it once. They use it to keep moisture out of a splice that's being worked on. Compressed nitrogen forces out the air around the splice, so that condesation can't form on it.
-Hank
Thanks to all for the great information. I work in a TELCO however the wireless side of the biz, and rarely do we require Nitrogen for repairs in Canada as these problems either do not occur or the repair is completed quickly.
Thank you
We used tanks of nitrogen where I used to work (for film processing), and one day the EPA was doing a check of the air quality in the building. Several people were quite alarmed to find out that they found traces of nitrogen throughout the entire building!
Duh?! Air is, give or take, 80% Nitrogen. If they only found traces, what was the rest of the gas composition!?
John
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/09/science/physical/09WALL.html
From Tuesday's Science Times section. The first paragraph appears below:
Underneath the remains of the World
Trade Center, waiting silently in the
gloom and dust as if for a boarding call that
will never come, sits an empty PATH train
nearly and neatly cut in half. Four of its cars
are intact, but three more are squashed
under debris from the collapse of the trade
center's south tower.
Going by that, it sounds like there was at least a partial collapse of the PATH station and mezzanine area, similar to the 1/9 collapse at Cortlandt Street.
Some of the debris could have come down via the escallator area, but I doubt it would have the force to break though to track level if it didn't also take out the 1/9 Cortland St. station bridge over the PATH entrance. AFAIK, there haven't been any reports of a track collapse in that area, just that part of the IRT roof had caved in.
Remember that the track level of the PATH does not extend underneath the escalators. The east wall of the track area is essentially in a vertical line with the east wall of the fare collection area. That east wall is the east wall of the tub. The subway is on the east side of that wall, over the escalators and/or the intermediate area between the foot of the escalators and the fare collection area. Thus, the subway is not directly above the PATH tracks.
So any collapse of the PATH station mezzanine and mezzanine roof onto part of the remaining train in the station must have been directly from a downward force of the debris of Tower 2, which was over the PATH mezzanine. But since a crew was able to get down there within four days of the collapse and check to see that there was no one trapped down there, any collapse could only have been a partial one, I would assume -- strong enough to crush a couple of railcars but not strong enough to make passage down to the mezzanine by rescue teams impossible.
IIRC, the access that was made to the station four days after the attack was from an access hatch into the tunnel near the station and then walking in along the tracks - not from the mezzanine.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the clarification. I remembered reading in the story that the escallator's emergency light was still flashing, and I thought they were viewing it after accessing the mezzanine level.
They walked in through the W/B tunnel as the E/B end is directly under tower 2 and got pancaked. According to the times all the rest of the station is ok except the part under tower 2.
I wonder whether any fans of the PATH system have come up with the numbers of seven cars missing from service. Might this have shown up on another site? Thanks. Joe McMahon
I hope one of them isn't a PA4.
A PA1, PA2, and especially a PA3 would be no loss.
NO! PA4's suck. PA1's and PA2's were built by St. Louis Car. That's a real AMERICAN car company. Not like Bombardier or ADTranz.
The 4's show some amazing lapses in judgement during the design phase (for example, while they were delivered with wheelchair areas at the car end, they had center poles, which combined with the offset doors meant that a wheelchair couldn't navigate the car - all those poles were removed, but you can still see the mismatched floor tiles as well as the round caps in the car ceiling). Oh, and they were from Kawasaki.
But they were all-stainless and are mostly immune to the rust problems affecting the older stock.
Are all my fellow Yankee fan subtalkers ready to hop the #4 train? I don't know if there will be a fifth and final game against oakland, but if there is, I have tickets for it and will be there on Monday 10/15 (should the game occur). If any other subtalkers will be there, I'd be happy to meet you. -Nick
I'll be happy to woek the token booth that afternoon. Just as long as I'm out of there before the game is over!
Any SubTalkers going to the Whaa?
I'm going on Wednesday (1st game vs. Oakland).
Cool...lets hope the rocket can mow down Mulder!! -Nick
Ill probably be there, either working on the platform or the train. Either Thursday or whenever the 5th game is....
if there is a fifth game, it will be this Monday, 10/15. -Nick
We have tickets for all the post season games. Glad there's a few folks making their way to the stadium!
Yankee fans! YUK!!!!!!! I sure as hell hope I don't have to endure those Bronx @#$%^&@#$& winning another World Series.
I guess you can go to the country club and play golf with the Mets then... :p -Nick
Ha Ha ha ha, where are the Mets Now??????
Sweet! If there is a game 5, I'll fire off an e-mail to you. My seats are in the upper deck. -Nick
Since my Mets didn't make it....(and neither did the Giants since I have been transplanted out west) I will be at Saturday's ALDS Game 3 routing enthusiastically AGAINST the Yankees.
Go Blue Jays!!! We'll get 'em next year!!!!
I went to network Associates Coliseum and Pacific Bell Park this summer. A;s stadium is okay, but it is nothing compared to the Bay View that the Giants have! -Nick
Hope security is better in Oakland than it was when I was there in August. The Left field security guy is right in front of me and didn't have a clue on what to do when a fan jumped on the field. Nope the security guy was too busy giving out CANDY.
oh, the security will definitely be tighter...I can guarantee u that! I got padded down before entering Fenway Park a couple weeks ago. -Nick
Typical Met fans . Yes, NY is back to Normal.
I was watching some work crews who were ripping up Atlantic Ave near Adams St/Smith and noticed some tracks that were buried under the street. They were just pulling them out and putting them a dumpster. You could also see a layer of cobble stone. Does anyone know what the are putting in and will their work impact the Hidden tunnel under Atlantic at all?
Just a quick question with all the security at Penn Station now. I will be coming in via Amtrak tomorrow afternoon and leaving Friday afternoon and was wondering if anyone knows if there is some sort of baggage check in at Penn Station that I could use before leaving Friday? My friend has to go to work in the AM, so instead of carrying my bag around the city until I leave, I was going to see if I could leave it at Penn and then walk around a little. I know there are probably lockers, but not sure if it will fit in there.
I'm very excited about being up there for the next couple of days, I can use a break from DC. I'm not going anywhere near the WTC. I am going to take in a show on Thursday and do some other touristy things while I'm there as well. Probably wont have much time for railfanning.
Thanks
Amtrak suspended the daily package check. It used to cost $1.50 per bag per 24 hour period. It's gone now. When I went to NY September 30 to ride the rails before attending an all night tango dance, I had to take EVERYTHING with me.
Michael
Oh ok, thanks!! I'll figure out what to do with my things. Maybe I can squeeze it into a locker.
Locker? I wouldn't be surprized if they were all padlocked due to the terrorist incidents. If you don't have a place to stash your stuff (ex. a hotel room/friend's house), then I suggest that you pack very very light.
yeah, I was thinking the same thing. well, at least it has wheels, so I can tow it around with me! I might be coming home a whole lot earlier than I thought on Friday.
Most hotels have baggage check-in even if you check out of your room.
--Mark
How about the parcel check in the waiting room at Grand Central, is that still available?
Probably not.
It's closed.
According to the local radio, BART has again closed all bathrooms until further notice and is removing garbage cans from platforms.
The garbage can removal will save them a lot of work, as nobody uses them. All their fine customers toss their trash on the train floors anyway.
You never have to buy a newspaper during the AM rush hour...there are plenty available.
omg....!!........ is evryone going stark raving mad ?? ....geeeeeezzzzzzzzz........!
The garbage can removal thing isn't as lame as you think. London's subways removed them quite a number of years ago due to IRA bombings. It isn't that far fetched that someone could detonate a device that is covered by garbage.
When I drove back to my school this afternoon, I heard on WTOP that there was a serious incident involving DC Metrorail.
Here is the story from WTOP.
Chaohwa
This story is also available on the Washington Post.
Chaohwa
I hope there are stiff jail sentences with fines for these pschos who crave attention. How about that incident where that psycho barrels through a cockpit door on a jetliner. Did the Federal air marshals subdue him ? I heard it was the passengers.
Bill "Newkirk"
See my follow-up on this same thread. The guy is being held without bail at the federal corrections center in Chicago, charged with interfering with a flight crew, a federal felony. Check the Chicago Tribune for the latest updates on the story.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Looks like the "unkown substance" turned out to be some sort of cleaning detergent. A few people in the vincinity of the incident complained of headaches, nausea, and dry throats, but that was most likely caused by the pepper spray used by police to subdue the perp.
Washington Post article
As most of you have probably heard by now, we had a bit of a scare of our own here at O'Hare around this time yesterday afternoon. A mentally ill person stormed the cockpit of an American Airlines plane en route from LA to Chicago, causing the plane to momentarily dive. USAF F-16 fighters intercepted the plane, and escorted it as it made an emergency landing here at O'Hare. The suspect was subdued by the passengers and crew, forcibly removed from the cockpit, tied up with ropes and those demonstration seat belt things, and placed on the floor back in the galley. He was arrested upon arrival at O'Hare.
We didn't see much of the action from our little corner of the airport, but we heard the fighter jets overhead and saw about a dozen fire trucks, cops, and ambulances take off toward the terminals. They all came back a little while later, so we figured the situation had been defused.
What fun...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Regarding the incident at O'Hare yesterday:
Chicago Tribune article
The last paragraph of the article:
"Meanwhile, the captain declared an emergency, and the U.S. Air Force scrambled two F-16 fighter jets to intercept the airliner and escort it to the ground. The fighters’ supersonic dash set off a sonic boom that rattled buildings and residents across the suburbs."
I can't wait to see how many calls we get from Bensenville homeowners about that one. A couple more incidents like this, and they'll be longing for the good old days when a Boeing 727 was the loudest thing around here.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Station and parking lot now open according to wmata.com.
Building for the future by Cheryl Kent
Chicago architects offer a dramatically different vision for the lower Manhattan site
Events put Chicago Fire in perspective by Ed Fanselow
City's devastation of 130 years ago seen in new light
-- David
Chicago, IL
I just wish the T would have gotten it's act together long ago
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/280/metro/MBTA_eyeing_hiring_reforms+.shtml
Hi folks,
I'm in the home stretch now in putting the 3rd edition of my track book together, and despite looking through all my source material there are a few maps and resources that I'm still in need of. Does anybody have the following drawings that they would be interested in seeing published in my next book?
1) Queensboro Plaza, when all tracks and platforms were active, including the 2nd Ave. tracks over the 59th St. Bridge, as well as the timeline for each service running there.
2) Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line showing the presence of the Fulton Street El with the eastern-most track over Snideker Ave. in place as well as all the connections to East New York yard.
3) Brooklyn's 5th Ave. elevated, specifically as it connected to the ramps at 9th Ave.
4) Present-day extension of the Staten Island Rapid Transit to the ball park as well as the Clifton Yard complex.
5) Recent track additions and changes to the 207th St. yard (or any other yard)
I'm starting to get close to deadline, so any help will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
All I'd like to know is "Were can I get a copy of your book?"
All I'd like to know is "Were can I get a copy of your book?
Nowhere for the moment. I'm totally sold out of version 2.5 right now. Version 3 is still being worked on even as I write this--but there is still a huge amount of work to be done. I'm holding off going to press until I can get as much of the requested information as I can find. Unfortunately, since the events of Sept. 11th, I've chosen to cut out some new details that were originally planned for the 3rd edition, and I'm looking for substitute material to take its place. I've also obviously had to go back in and change the route markers in many locations, re-write the chapter on the V train, and note other changes related to the WTC attacks.
I'm still on target for the last week of the month as the first date of sale. Once I have all my material in place and a printer lined up and scheduled I will announce a sale date. Obviously, the sooner I can get it done the better!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Between us I'll settle for an older edition and fill in stuff myself.
BTW Did you work in the uniform center?
I believe the gift shop at Shoreline still has one or two copies left.
They are open on week-ends this month ... 203-467-6927
Mr t
Was there Wednesday ... saw one left.
Mr t
Between us I'll settle for an older edition and fill in stuff myself.
BTW Did you work in the uniform center?
Never worked at the Uniform center (I don't work for the TA at all). The only back-editions I have are about 3 years old and are inaccurate in many places--also they don't contain the yard maps that have been included since version 2. Just hang tight for a few weeks and you'll be able to get the latest version.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
The "Tracks of New York" book series by Alan Kahn & Jack May had some track diagrams in them, but they were at a certain point in time. In fact, the drawings of the 5th Ave / 39th St connection appear to be drawn to what they were like before the Dual Contacts construction. The drawings of Queensboro Plaza might have been what it looked like in the '20s.
Did you check this book series already as one of your "sources"?
--Mark
If Peter can contact the ERA, they may be able to help.
I was just thinking Peter could show the Atlantic Av Complex, before and after the dual contracts, and then what it will look like after the Snediker Av Portion is removed. This might give transit buffs a feel for how the line has changed over the years. It's just an idea... Before and after comparisons sound good.
-Stef
Thanks, I think I'll contact the ERA this week and see if they can lend a hand. My plan is to show Atlantic Ave. when it was fully operational, the way it was until recently and the way it will look after all is said and done (the last two are already there).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Ever thought of showing the NY&Atl trackage alongside the canarsie, possibly as a shaded grey line? It does connect with the system...
db
Following on from a previous post about left luggage facilities can anyone confirm the status of the parcel room at Grand Central i.e is it open or closed. I may well have to re-think hotel plans for my forthcoming New York trip if it is closed.
Simon
Swindon UK
It is closed.
You could always leave your bags at the Bellman at the hotel where you are staying, and go back to pick them up before you head out for the airport
... is the new opening date of the new Newark Int'l Airport Terminal. I knew this a couple of weeks before via Bob Scheurle's NJT Webpage but I haven't gotten a chance to post this until now.
Schedules have not been released yet on this site. The OW fare (only option available) from NYP is $11.15, and from NWK is $6.65.
Anyone going to this station anytime soon after opening date? Any thoughts?
Railfan Pete.
... is the new opening date of the new Newark Int'l Airport Terminal. I knew this a couple of weeks before via Bob Scheurle's NJT Webpage but I haven't gotten a chance to post this until now.
Schedules have not been released yet on this site. The OW fare (only option available) from NYP is $11.15, and from NWK is $6.65.
Anyone going to this station anytime soon after opening date? Any thoughts?
Also:
1) Where can I get schedules for the Newark Int'l Airport station?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
The NE Amtrak Timetable has them.
New Jersey Transit's North Jersey Coast Line and Northeast Corridor schedules online at www.njtransit.com go to Schedules/Rail/Printed Timetables
Thank you very much for your supplied info.
I really would like to experience riding through this, and also walking around the new station. (Unless if the people don't charge you for doing it!)
: )
Railfan Pete.
This beautiful paperback book was published by Price Stern & Sloan. (Penguin Putnam) It is NOW OUT OF PRINT. It includes over 30 different projects using NYC MetroCards. Games, magic tricks, toys. Great for kids from 8 to adult. Autographed by author at buyer¹s request. To order send $7 each + $3.00 (s&h) (outside USA $6.00 s&h) in US money, check or money order made out to: Michael Makman. Send order to: Professor Putter PO Box 755, Planet Station New York , NY 10024-0539
I've found out that PATHursday is "your opportunity to meet with management staff to give your comments and suggestions. PATHursday representatives come from every management area of PATH and have expertise in their individual discipline, as well as a broad general knowledge of PATH operations. Many of the improvements PATH makes come as a direct result of suggestions made our passengers. We welcome your comments."
"PATHursdays are held Thursday mornings from 7:30 to 9:30 at the following stations:
PATHursday will be held every Thursday at 33rd Street Station
And the 2nd Thursday of the month at Journal Square Station.
If you cannot attend the PATHursday sessions, you may call 1-800-234-PATH (7284). "
Anyone have any ideas thus far?
Railfan Pete.
Yes, some pointless, impractical, and absurdly expenive ones, mostly having to do with WTC, which are now all moot anyway. I presented them to the PATHursday guys and was politely ignored, as I expected I'd be. Someone before me must have had a workable suggestion, as his got written down.
I don't blame ya. But people aren't perfect. I know sometimes ideas won't work or go off unnoticed.
Also, I think the PATH WTC station should be rebuilt with the same interior layout as did the design of the pre-Sept.11 time period.
(I have too many memories here. Will break my heart and that of my children if the authorities change it differently. If it is EXTRAORDINARILY better, I might like it, but it will never be the same.)
: (
Railfan Pete.
I'm sure that 40 years ago people liked Hudson terminal better. The Port Authority has a great chance to improve things and they should take advantage of it.
I agree. I'll be awaiting the finished project. If it's not going to be in the past, then it has to be something better.
: |
Railfan Pete.
The same reason why no Seinfeld character will ever have a successful show again. If they're in any situation different from Seinfeld, they're messing with our memories.
>>>...and that of my children.<<<
Children....WHAT CHILDREN?!?!....you are 14 years old...remember.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm talking about my future. Leading a successful life also means caring for them and properly disciplining them as well.
Railfan Pete.
From msnbc.com
http://www.msnbc.com/news/640271.asp
{The nation’s freight railroads, meanwhile, restricted movement of some cargo and activated a full-time crisis center following the military strikes in Afghanistan, the industry’s trade group said Monday. As the attacks began Sunday, railroads began restricting operations near stadiums and other public places where crowds congregated, said Peggy Wilhide, spokeswoman for the Association of American Railroads. At the request of law enforcement, the railroads have been conducting computer checks of employees against a list of names supplied by the FBI. Wilhide would not specify which materials were restricted. Attorney General John Ashcroft on Monday said authorities were not trying to stop all shipments of materials that could be terrorist targets. “We’re asking companies to develop security plans which are reasonable and which provide a way to secure cargo and facilities, but not to cease operations,” he said.}
There seem to be a chain fax from CSXT and a chain E-mail from NS. ConRail Shared Assets at Morrisville, Pa., interprets them to mean no movement at all of any placarded tank cars on any large railroad. NS at Dearborn, Mich. (whose name was used in vain on a version of the NS E-mail) thinks it applies only to some kinds of Arsenic, and doesn't apply to interchange traffic, but does apply to traffic from NS customers and NS shortline connections. NS Atlanta thinks the Association of American Railroads has something to do with it, that the details on NS have changed and now only apply to the receipt of loaded cars with a few specific placards or contents.
Merry confusion.
In the meantime, trains are still backing up on other railroads because the larger roads are confused about what they might do, and the customers are scrambling to get trucks.
Jim Boylan
General Freight Agent
Tyburn Railroad Co.
(215) 428-9290
This is such BS. Trains with HAZMATS derail all the time. You really can't do that much damage by using train in a terrorist plot.
Latest word from CSX is that this started with an A.A.R. directive that could have been to forestall goverment regulation.
I'm trying to get a copy of it. My customers are still very confused.
ConRail Shared Assets Area did move cars last night.
Jim Boylan
General Freight Agent
Tyburn Railroad Co.
Fairless, Pa.
(215) 428-9290
Posted at www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/BERA. More to come.
-Hank
Very nice Hank, thanks for sharing.
Mr t
From the San Antonio Business Journal
From the San Antonio Business Journal
From the AP via New Jersey Online
TUNNEL VISION
Mapping the Movements of Altered Subway Lines
By RANDY KENNEDY
When the towers collapsed, the subway map instantly became a historical document.
Your link is bad. It sends me back to the subtalk index.
Try this
Click Here
I heard of two date of when the R143's will be starting the 30day test. The dates are 10/15 or 10/28. The 10/28 was told to one of the Dispature at 8th Ave. by the line Superatend. So I would say this one is the most likey. There have beem about 30 crews sent to Piken Yard over the last few days starting at 11:00pm for the Midnight crews, 7:00am for the AM Crews and 3:00pm for the pm crews. The T/O are getting two or three days behine the contoll and the C/R are getting one day. This is from a C/R I spook to today 10/9 on the L.
Robert
so whats the deal, how many r143s are there anyway!
r142man
[2]Seventh Avenue Express
United We Stand
There's only one...#8101-8104/8105-8108...
Eight cars, one train. Yonkers doesn't even have extra hanging around(like it did with the R-142 during its test).
Read Post:
Stef: R-142 & R-142A Primary Order Almost Done.....R-143 Order in Full Swing (at Plants)
There is extras now!
Trevor
Is there anyway to get some Pictures of the new R143's that are at the plants?
Robert
David on this board said the 15th. The 15th is a Monday, and the 28th a Sunday, so I guess they will start with the early Monday schedule?
Actually, I didn't say it, but I said October 15 sounded about right. Heck, the 28th could be right, too! We'll just have to wait and see. I don't think any SubTalker who sees it will waste any time reporting that fact.
David
I know THIS one won't, the first new B Division car since 1988 deserves special mention!
Heck, if they are gonna start it on a weekend, start it one day earlier....OCTOBER 27TH!! Yeah, I know it ain't the IRT, but it would still be cool. -Nick
This Monday, I was in Downtown DC for the first time since September 11. Firstly, I went on I-395 by the Pentagon, first south, then north. The southwest face is a dark brown where the plane crashed. There is a large flag to the right of this. I had not been on this side of the Pentagon for as long as I can remember.
Once Downtown, I went to the Arts and Industries Museum. It was quite empty, considering the fact it was a federal holiday. After going to Arts and Industries, I crossed the Mall and went to the Natural History Museum. While on the Mall between Jefferson and Madison Drives, I looked west (left) towards the Washington Monument. A plane was taking off and flew right behind the monument.
Natural History was more crowded since it was later in the day but even so, the largest crowd was at the security checkpoints. As you entered the museums, guards would make you open all your bags and they would do an inspection with wooden sticks and flashlights. They wouldn't touch anything. My friend put her coat in my bag at Arts and Industries so at Natural History, the security guard had to poke through the bag on both sides of the coat, the 4 other pockets of this bag, plus the bag where I keep my cameras. Both seemed somewhat annoyed at having so many compartments to look through plus the fact what I was holding was so large.
On my way from Natural History to the Smithsonian Metro, it was still quite empty on the Mall. The Metro was running 6 car trains. This was at about 2 PM and things were quite light on the Blue/Orange lines. The Red line seemed more crowded.
Things have returned to normalcy here, or at least as normal as they will be. I hope this weekend's free rides on Metro bring the much needed economy boost.
I am taking advantage if the weather holds out to take my God Daughter to the National Zoo on Saturday to see the pandas
Why don't they make the trains repeat the next stop if the conductor cuts it off once the train moves? For example, if the train did:
F: This is a Bronx-bound 6 train, the next stop is...
M: Stand clear of the closing doors, please!
(Train begins to move)
F: The next stop is Seventy-Seventh Street.
I think it would be rather helpful this way.
It would be a while before such software could be installed....there are at least three vendors making necessary upgrades and modifications to operational cars already. I did notice today a 'calibration mode' on the T/Os screen which is necessary for one of the computers to figure out its next stop. Anything is possible with the right complaints/suggestions from the riding public. Peter
I would like to see more celebrities voices recorded, especially for the "stand clear of the closing doors" announcement...cuz it gets very annoying hearing the same guy from Bloomberg over and over again, especially when making local stops. -Nick
For one thing "stand clear of the closing doors please" sounds like a southerner instead of a typical NYCTA conductor. I like the traditional way better. Now if they can put that type of software in, boy that will be an advancement!
If they did it the traditional NYCT way, it would be robotic gibberish :-)
Maybe the ought to have some kind of competition for the C/Rs on each line and the winner gets to do the recordings for however long that particular set of stops/stations/transfers is in use. When there are (permanent) route/transfer changes, they can hold an new competition each time.
oh boy !! yes...... PROFF that the R-142s ..........they ""R"" ""A"" Breakin' on' down' already...!~!!
lol !! how bout' that south ferry ??
I didn't say they were breaking down. I said the announcements are cut off when the conductor closes the doors. The system is working fine when it does that.
I think the R110's had that kind of system.
Nice idea, but I still don't understand why the system was designed to make it so difficult to modify the announcements that they haven't been touched after not one but two major service changes, treating passengers to misinformation at all BMT transfer points. (I know the C/R is supposed to make manual announcements where the automated announcement is out-of-date, but not once have I heard a C/R bother. Besides, isn't that a waste of an expensive piece of equipment? And the "ping" that precedes manual announcements sounds too much like the door chime, but I digress.) Also, when a train is in local mode (like the 2 at all times now and nights before September 11), it's not an express and should not declare itself an express, neither over the PA nor on the signs, or else it will invariably confuse passengers.
The only time R142/As should say "local" or "express" over the PA is when they are not running their normal service pattern (i.e. the 2 should not say its mode of operation unless its running local in Manhattan or express in Brooklyn or The Bronx) or if there is a thru-express (the 5 and 6 in The Bronx). I am sure the tourists all want to hear this is a Bronx-bound 2 Express Train since the signage is good enough to announce that.
As for the service changes, the lack of a feature to change the available transfers in addition to the ability to make it skip stations was another mistake. Esepcially since the MannyB flip was going to happen and the TA knew it.
I heard that they were planning to make changes to the announcements after both the Bridge flip and the opening of the 63 St. Connector opened.
The trains say "Wakefield (or Flatbush) bound 2 train" in the Bronx and Brooklyn and "Bronx (or Brooklyn) bound 2 Express train" in Manhattan from 135th Street to Wall Street. That is normal. The problem is they normally announce "2 Express train" even when they're local. When they run run local, they should say so. The TA (or whoever scripted the canned voices) should have thought about adding "2 Local train". 2 trains began running local during late night hours in 1998, well before the first R142 cars entered service.
As for the fact that the new cars still announce the old train services (pre-7/22), the TA might not have been sure what they were going to call the Brooklyn B and D services until a few months before the 7/22 changes took effect. Wasn't the TA considering using yellow B and D like they did from 1986 to 1988? Still, they should have at least programmed every letter, except maybe I and O, into the computer just to be safe.
Just got an email from Alstom, the manufacturer of the R142 computer control systems, as I'm looking for tips in troubleshooting the on board LAN systems. Bombardier assembled the cars and probably programmed the messages with what was thought appropriate at the time by MTA. With so many modifications being performed by the vendors, it's unlikely any more changes are forthcoming. Peter
Then they should shut off the canned voices, at least the ones that announce transfers, because people will be confused (possibly annoyed) at hearing incorrect announcemnts. Those announcements are now no better than the garbled C/R announcements that are made in the old cars. They were better when the R142s first entered service because they were correct, but since they can't fix them, the automated male and female transfer voices are useless now. So is the female "This a Brooklyn (or Bronx)-bound 2 Express train" voice. Yesterday I rode in R142 car #6411. When it entered 96th Street, the female voice announced "This is 96th Street. Transfer is available to the 1 and 9 trains." There's no 9 train in service now. That annoucement should not be used.
Until YOU riders balk loud enough, MTA is satisfied with the modifications for doors, brakes, trainline software and the rest of the undocumented crap that falls down the hole. "In the hole, in the hole." Peter
We basically agree. I'd prefer to have "express" or "local" announced always (at least where there are both express and local tracks), but I suppose that might get a bit cumbersome over time -- those voices are a bit more exuberant than New Yorkers are accustomed to.
(BTW, the 6 is not a thru-express, as I learned a few months ago.)
Yes it is in the Bronx.
No, it's just an express in the Bronx. A thru-express is a line that's express in more than one borough (or perhaps I'm misremembering and it must be express in all boroughs it serves). The only line the term is actually applied to is the rush hour 5, although it could be applied to a number of others (the A, rush hour D, Q, and 4 by the first definition, or just the rush hour D by the second).
My definition of a thru-express (X stands for the number or letter of any NYC Subway Train) is a diamond X going past the terminal of the circle X AND the Diamond X makes express stops in one or both directions where the Circle X makes local stops. If I recall correctly, the maps from 1979 until 1998 (about) call the < 6 > the Lexington Avenue Local-Pelham Thru Exprses.
The signs for the R-44/46 are much better than the signs for the R-142 (from subtalker accounts). The following is programmed for the "A"
A Fulton local 8th av express to 207th st
A Fulton/8th av exp to 207th st
A 8th av local to 207th st.
Now while C/R's don't exactly put up the correct signs all the time, they're all there, which seems as if it's better than the R-142
Like announcements, the signs depend upon proper calibration of distance which is ususally set up by the T/O on the first run. Peter
Is it just me or was the Man-bridge related re-stickering of signage for the 6th ave and new Q & W service done shoddily? Not all the stickers are to the same scale, many are crooked, and even some (the new 6th ave shuttle) is upside down (they don't use a font with a symmetrical S, so there *is* an upside down...check the furthest east signage for the S at the bottom of the stairs at the Bdwy-Laf terminal).
Maybe I am just nitpicking, but I can't imagine it couldn't be made to look as professional as the system usually does.
It's not just you, the MTA is freaking lay-zee. I don't think they could afford to make so many metal signs, and I sure as hell hope that if/when the manhattan bridge opens for real, that they don't use black sticker material to cover up the W (imagining the Q and the Q Diamond stay put)
It was pretty crappy. Q diamonds were placed wherever. For an example, see this photo I took on August 20 (once you get the error message, refresh, and it should appear).
The Q diamonds were an afterthought. The two Q's were initially treated as a single route for signage purposes.
As for everything else, it varies. Some stations were treated quite well. Believe it or not, 34th Street was missing Q/W bullets in a few places on the IND platforms for days after the change took place. There were a few errors along the Brighton line and at DeKalb (where passengers to the Bronx were instructed to transfer to the Q diamond at 34th -- whoever was assigned the task of covering D's with Q's went overboard and coveed the D's on the brand new signs as well). At least one staircase at New Utrecht on the M (N according to signage -- no permanent signage, AFAIK, has been updated post-WTC) still has a B.
And the signs should have been kept that way. If they decided to add Q diamonds to all the signs, then maybe they should add 6-diamonds and 7-diamonds to all Flushing, Pelham and Lex stations.
I can see arguments either way, but consistency would be nice. The Q, 6, and 7 have similar diamond arrangements (the 5's is somewhat different) and they should be signed similarly.
Yes, that is true. The 5 is like the D in that all rush hour peak direction trains on the D and 5 lines run express in the Bronx. So it would be pointless to add diamond D's on 6th Avenue and CPW station signs or diamond 5's on Lex stations.
Strictly speaking, I believe the diamond 5 refers to the rush hour trains to 238th Street. Trains to Dyre are circles. I don't think anybody tries to set the signs correctly, though.
Diamond 5's are to mean one of two things:
1) The train is operating to Flatbush Av
2) The train is operating via Bronx Thru Express regardless of destination
One source of confusion is that the usage of diamonds varies depending on where one looks. Another is that proper rollsigns are often not used or even not available (there's no diamond-A, for instance, although the timetable correctly uses that designation for the rush hour specials to Rockaway Park). See this subthread (from nyc.transit) for my idea of what the diamonds really mean, despite what may be apparent.
According to my understanding, the diamond is only used for a part-time variant that runs when the regular route also runs. Since all rush hour 5's run express in the Bronx (peak direction) and (nearly) all rush hour 5's run to Brooklyn, there's no need to distinguish circles from diamonds there. The only variation is in the north terminal, where the less common one gets the diamond.
In what year as exactly that the interior orange doors panels appeared? I heard it was on various subway cars sice the late 1970's. Besides on what types did they have them on. Does anybody remember very well why were they painted in that color? I heard that the R33/R36WF still had them after they were painted Redbird, if so when did the repainted it to red if anyones has good memories?
The orange door panels with the brown interior walls replaced the pistachio green with gray doors and yellow stenciled car numbers the MTA added to the R-7 through R-36WF cars between 1971-75 (for which the world was greatful, of course). Supposedly, when the MTA came up with the new paint it was to be more "graffiti resistant," though that apparently didn't work out the way it was planned.
The new interior paint scheme made its debut in early 1978 on the No. 6 line's R-33 cars (9200 series), and coincided with the arrival of the retrofitted air-conditioning units for the cars (which got a new coating of MTA silver and blue exterior paint at the same time). The R-33/36 cars that received A/C generally were the first to get the new colors, which later worked their way down to the single car non-AC retrofit units on the IRT.
I think the B Division's R-16s and R-27/30s got the paint jobs a little later, but someone else may be able to answer that part better.
I had the pleasure of visiting the Rockhill Trolley Museum last Saturday. Their new track is great, as previously reported on this board by Keystone Pete.
Rockhill Trolley Museum thumbnails
Nice Pictures! I could really appreciate them, having visited there this summer. It looks like they really rolled out the equipment for the special weekend. I only got to ride on York 163 and Johnstown 311.
Have they started work yet on construction of the pocket siding at the new end of track?
Have they started work yet on construction of the pocket siding at the new end of track?
I don't know what was done when you were there, but this photo shows the end of the line pretty well. You can click on the pull-down menu that on my screen says "fit window" and go to "normal" to enlarge the photo.
Thanks for the picture! It looks as it did when I was there. It was my understanding from our guide that the pocket siding would be constructed on that ballasted area about where the man in blue denim is standing.
Was the odor of creosote so strong at the end of line when you were there? I suppose it came from the pile of new ties. It was really strong. I love that smell but it was really overpowering.
Did you happen to notice Altoff Passing Siding on any of your trips out? It had a really unusual kink in it. I didn't remember the kink from previous visits, but forgot to ask the reason while I was there.
The odor of creosote was no longer evident.
I didn't notice anything kinky about the passing siding; it must have gotten straightened out.
I imagine I noticed the creosote because it was an extremely hot day when I was there.
I hope to get back sometime when they are running the PCC. I would really like to ride one of them again.
Thanks for posting the pictures, I really enjoyed them!
Nice photos, Bob. That young girl in one of the last photos looks like she was ready to go home ... hope she wasn't with you.
Mr t
She was fine. She and her father were with me. I think this photo could be used for a "Les Miserables' promo.
photo being discussed
Yep ... that's the one I saw :-)
You'll have to bring her when I have my grandson in toe, he'll show her how to have fun in the subways !
Mr t
Great pix, Bob. I was bummed I couldn't make it to Fall Spectacular this year. My wife's birthday coincided, so we were celebrating in Washington, D.C. Needles to say, I didn't get in much WMATA riding either! :O(
BTW, did you hear about CA&E 315 while you were there? A few days ago, one of the operators pulled an arc on the way into the barn, and a spark flew and caught her on fire, unbeknownst to the motorman. Luckily, the fire was later discovered in enough time to keep the damage minimal (front bumper area). Had it not been, we would have lost a barn full of trolleys as well as my favorite car, the blue interurban. I hope her resurrection is eminent.
Last I heard, they are still working on the pocket track at the end of the line, and Altoff siding, recently partially re-tied and -ballasted, which may have been when the "kink" was fixed, serves for passing. I can't wait to visit again to see the new trackage. Hopefully, they will have a winter members' day like last year.
Thanks for the info, Pete. I hadn't heard about #315. What a close call!
You have a very nice operation there. Keep up the good work.
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I believe it was Mr. Rogers that said, "Can you spell "dyslexia"? I think the word you're looking for is "click".
I understand that prior to the Manny B switch they were physically 2 different lines - the D went from 205th St.-Coney Island, the Q from to Queensbridge-Brighton Beach.
However, now they are essentially the same train. Other than the diamond-Q ending 3 stations earlier and being express, they are the same train. In my opinion, as they stand now, the 2 Q's are like the 5 trains (some go to 238th, some to Dyre Ave.), or the 6 trains (the diamonds end at Parkchester). So why does the MTA spend so much effort putting up separate stickers for diamond/circle Q's when they don't do similar things for the 5's or 6's?
Because people got confused. The MTA was going to do that approach with the two Qs but since people were too baffled, the < Q > stickers were put up, quite sloppily IMHO.
They just should have used a different letter, how about X like Brighton Exp Bob suggested? I know, you're gonna say that only the R32s and 38s have X on their rollsigns and it's in a white circle not a yellow one. But don't forget, the TA went out of it's way to paste diamond-Q signs over the yellow D's on the slant R40 rollsigns. They could have just as easily pasted yellow X's over the yellow D's. They could have also done that on the R68s and 68As if needed.
Well, the two 5s are one line, so you have to wait for every other train if you're above E 180, but that's b/c they don't need every train to go to a particular terminal. Diamond Q is it's own line because it in itself runs every 5-6 minutes, it deserves it's own designation.
The circle and diamond Q's are two separate lines with the same letter. It just doesn't make sense, especially now. From July 22nd until Sept 11th, both Q's terminated at 57th and 7th, so it made a lot more sense then. But now the circle Q continues to Forest Hills. It can be confusing to a lot of people (I'm sure it is). That's why they need a different letter for the Brighton Express, X or maybe T or U, and maybe should have used a different letter from the beginning.
should have used W for the Brighton exp and T for the West End exp
Pure logic and convienence for the customers. Want an express? Grab the diamond. Local? The circle. Since both trains share the route between 57th and Prospect Park, it's necessary.
-Hank
But then maybe they should do that on 6 and 7 line stations in Manhattan as well. Station signs on the Lex only show the 6 in a circle. They should put the diamond 6 on the Lex signs too if they're doing it on Broadway.
Right now, there's more differences, since the circle (Q) now goes a long way into Queens.
:-) Andrew
They could make the Q Diamond the X Train, meaning a eXPress
What was unusual is i thought that R46 dominated the E line. Today 3354 was on the E that i took. Good to have a Railfan window on the E again.........
Up until 1991, the R-46s DID dominate the E line.
Until reading this site, I too thought R46's dominated the E line. When I visited New York back in 1998, the E train I took was an R46, as were just about all the other E trains I saw. Maybe there was something going on that week that caused R46's to be assigned to the E?
Also, from reading on this sight it seems that R46's dominate the R-train, yet when I took the R that time I was in NYC I got an R32 (or maybe R38, I can't remember, but it was one of those). This was the same day I got an R46 E. Is it normal to get an R32(R38) on the R or was that just an isolated incident?
Until the WTC disaster, it was common to see both R46s and R32s on both the (E) and the (R). Usually the (E) was mostly R32s and the (R) was mostly R46, but that varied depending on various factors (GO's, etc.)
These days, the (E) is mostly R46 with still some R32s (and reported unusual sightings of R38s and R44) while the Queens (Q), which replaces the (R), is running with R32s and R68s (almost never before seen on Queens Blvd.) and reported sightings of R46s (I have yet to see what the LCD reading would be) and R40s (also very out of place on Queens Blvd for more than 20 years, but I saw it with my own eyes.)
:-) Andrew
The 46's have the readings for the Q to Continental.
And what does that look like, pray tell?
:-) Andrew
Q 71/CONTINENTAL
Q BROADWAY LOCAL
AFAIK
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
I heard that they don't always have to be prgrammed. i was on the F once and i programmed, to 14st/8AV. this caused the F electric sign to go blank but it just said. to 14st/8av. A F motorman told me a sign can say any existing line with any existing station. check out the examples. i programmed some myself, and some i just saw
1. F QUEENS LOCAL (CODE 3)
2. G QUEENS PLAZA (forgot code)
3. I have programmed this (Code7) F 6av culver local, to Coney island
4. B to 21st Queensbridge.
BEST CODE.
N BWAY EXPRESS
N TO CONEY ISLAND
thats code 45
and code is 544 for v line to 2nd av i think
does anyone know the E line codes?
Are you sure any letter can go along with any destination?
I ask because, during GO's that have sent the G to Bedford-Nostrand and the F to 34th via BMT, the route letter slot has been blank.
All of your examples are or were regularly scheduled services. The F runs local at night, the weekend G ran to Queens Plaza before it was cut back to Court Square, the evening and weekend B ran to Queensbridge (albeit not with R-46's), and the N did run express in 1990 and for most of the 80's.
I hope he's not certain, because if he is he's wrong. There are many R-44/46 electronic sign readings that have a destination but no route letter. As mentioned on this board before, there are even "Metro North RR" and "Long Island RR" readings.
David
That's what I thought.
But why aren't the route letter and the destination (and the route description, for that matter) controlled independently? I don't see the harm in allowing the train to declare itself, say, a D via 8th Avenue local to 2nd Avenue (as in a recent GO, although of course it used R-68's). Undoubtedly, such a train could declare itself a D, or could declare its routing of 8th Avenue, or could declare its destination of 2nd Avenue, but not all three at once.
The luminators are designed to have separate listings for letters & destinations, but the TA decided to have the two linked together, most likely to save on any maintenance costs associated with having two separate computer links. When you separate the two, you'd most likely have to install additional components.
Additionally, there are signs installed that say for example "D to Coney Island via 8 Av", but when you have an unusual terminal with a combined reroute, then the signs aren't of much use.
Every station in the TA system is represented with a code installed, with no corresponding letter. Even some stations that are closed are still coded (code 470--To Dean Street).
yea but i have seen to Canal street. No letter shown. Also the example to 14th street 8av was also a blank sign. Also when those signs have no letter, i think those are programmed. for example blank, to 42nd 6av. That was the other half of the F, but it didn't say a letter.
P.S. what i mean by any station with any letter is stuff like R JAMAICA CENTER, E 8AV/FULTON LCL, E to EUCLID AVENUE.
WHAT I AM BASICALLLY SAYING IS THAT U CAN HAVE ANY LINE WITH ANY STATION THAT ALREADY EXISTS. IF U DON'T HAVE IT, THEY HAVE TO PROGRAM IT LIKE I EXPLAINED. SO THAT MEANS U CAN HAVE E to 207TH STREET, G TO CONEY ISLAND, F TO 21ST QUEENSBRIDGE, E TO WHITEHALL STREET. THE LIST GOES ON.
But for individual stations like 23rd, if it is not a terminal, or it hasn't been programmed, someone must program it, like a Luminator technician. Like for example, to 23rd st/8avenue
by the way i think E 8AVENUE IS A PROGRAMMED CODE BECAUSE THE E IS STILL SHOWN
How does the electronic signing work ? Do they have to be reprogrammed for unusual settings like what is shown ?
No crews seem to know what the correct codes are. Usually I end up seeing Listen for Announcement or Special, but once I saw V to 71/Continental | 6 Ave line.
I still see R32s on the (E) pretty regularly.
:-) Andrew
Shouldn't be an unusual sighting; #3354-3355 is a carset assigned to Jamaica Yard, according to my R32 Census sheet (which is not 100% up to date).
wayne
The married set 3444-3777 is also assigned to JAM, but I saw it today on the (Q).
Aren't all the R32 found on the Circle Q transfers from the "R", and thus Jamaica Yard?
wayne
Word.
Ten days ago I visited Brighton line. I found 3948-49, which belongs to Coney Island Yard, on Q. Clearly CI Yard also provides Q line some R32s. However, I observed that Jamaica R32s consisted nearly half of Q line fleet.
Glad to see a bunch of R32s on the Brighton line.
Chaohwa
More R32's than there were before the Q came to Queens Bl, but now there are too many R46's on the E. I guess the extra cars from the R had to go somewhere.
Aren't the R-68's still running there? These are what the circle Q is supposed to have.
Yes. There are a number of R68's (R68A?) running on the circle (Q), which means that they are are Queens Blvd.
:-) Andrew
Q circle:
R-32 (Jamaica and Coney Island), R-68, occasional R-68A (haven't seen R-40, but wouldn't discount it)
Q diamond:
R-40, occasional R-32, occasional R-68 (haven't seen R-68A, but wouldn't discount it)
David
In a rather odd move, there are several CI Phase II R32s (from the N) on the Q-diamond. However, the R32's (both the JAM and CI cars) do not have diamond Q's for their side signs. So the Q-diamond express has Q-local side signs.
The R68/68A's and R32s should be on the Q-circle while the "slants" and any left over 68's should be on the Q-diamond.
Mark
So how can one tell between an R32 Q Diamond and R32 Q local (north of Prospect Park, duh!)? Does the conductor say "Q diamond", "Q express", "Q local", etc.?
They did on 8-20.
Q Express says
57 Street-Brighton Beach
Q Local says
Continental Avenue-Coney Island
That's a bad idea, putting a train out on the road without its proper sign, especially when it's wearing a sign that's already in use. Maybe they should put these stray R32 on the "M" and pull the corresponding number of Slants to fill in.
wayne
Now wouldn't be a good time to do an inventory. R32s from anywhere are everywhere.
Well, this sheet is a constantly changing thing. Every trip, I trainspot the R32s, whatever and wherever they are. Then I come home and update the sheet with my findings. I ususally use dark blue for "A", medium blue for "C", light blue for "E", lime green for "G", yellow for "N", orange for "Q", goldenrod for "R", and gray for "S".
wayne
I don't know what happened today. I boarded the 454 because i was told it goes to Jamaica Via the Montauk Branch. Anyways it went thru the Montauk branch. People Throwing rocks at the train. Anyways once we got to Dunton Tower, the Train must have hit something and went into emergency. Because the Conductor got on the PA and announced the Train was having equipment problems. The DM30 510 did recharge and instead of continuing to oyster bay, the Trains last stop was Jamaica. This left many Oyster bay customers stranded. Good thing My Far Rockaway train came on time and i was still able to get to Rosedale
HAHAHAHHAHHA oh my god, geez, throwing rocks...Shit!
Oh yeah, that's hillarious. Too bad they didn't hit someone and split their head open. Then it would have been a real hoot. Could you imagine if someone actually died. They could have shown it on Saturday Night Live and cheered everyone up..
Once again - First impression was correct. Welcome back on my AH list.
Um, I highly doubt that someone is living on/in the wheel base...they were prolly aiming for the tracks, as I do when I'm really angry when I'm in LI, i just take rocks and throw them really hard at the tracks, they prolly wanted to throw rocks at the tracks, watch them get crushed at the same time. I highly DOUBT they wanted to kill someone, but if they did that would be sick, and don't think I'm saying this to cover up what i said before. What I'm saying here is actually true...
I don't know if they were "prolly" aiming for the tracks. They "prolly" wanted to hit the train. In the area of Netherwood and Plaifield stations on the Raritan Valley Line during springtime, after youngsters have been cooped up indoors all winter, they go crazy and start throwing rocks at the moving trains. They ain't angry, they just "prolly" stupid!
Throwing rocks at someone else's property is a criminal act - period!
Throwing rocks at an occupied vehicle is criminal act!
I've seen the results of what you see as harmless fun when engineers, motormen and other train crew are taken to a hospital. I'm sure the eye doesn't care if the throck is thrown directly or bounces off a rail first. The simple fact is that anyone who applauds that kind of behavior, anyone who condones that kind of behavior, anyone who sees nothing wrong with it, is a moron. Railfans, and morons don't mix. Why not try somewhere else like:
http://www.imamoron.org/new/asshole/join.html
If you consider throwing rocks at a track (with no train on it) (my act, i wouldnt throw it at a train, i'm not a moron) a criminal act, get real. I don't see why I make it on your "asshole" list just becuase I laugh at someone's stupidity...
Excuse me? What are you babbling about. The original subject was that a train went out of service during rush hour because some miscreant(s) pelted it with rocks (presumably either damaging the equipment or causing injury). You expressed some amusement at this event. This was not a case of throwing rocks at the rails. If you cannot seperate reality (throwing rocks at trains) from fantasy, perhaps the rocks that are being thrown are not your biggest problem. The ones in your head may be. Instead of trying to be a railfan, perhaps you should be looking to catch the 'mental health express'.
Now do you have any other questions as to why I think you belong on my list?
"'mental health express'."
LRL!!!!!!!!!
OK my first post was laughing at the stupidity of the people or persons involved. I'm sure you have or you've seen other people go "Hahahaha, what a dumbass"
>>I'm sure you have or you've seen other people go "Hahahaha, what a dumbass"
Clayton, your a dumbass; Hahahaha
I really feel the love here,really,I do........
Those good ol reliable double deckers. Rocks stop them. What's next, they stall when it rains? Funny I've been lucky I've never had a problem. And LIRR never bothered to get a backup train for 510? Stranding commuters. Hmm sounds a lot like the way LI Bus handles "equipment problems". Yeah just make 'em wait for the next one. :-0
Once again, john, you show how little you know about life outside of Lionelville. First of all, the LIRR cannot and does not have the resources to have a back-up train for every eventuality. They likely did have a gap train and eventually got it to cover the missed trip. The original poster did not say either way. He got onto another train and left so only you are assuming the negative. If the LIRR did not have a spare train, then they did not have a spare train. The people would have had to wait for the next train to Oyster Bay. Other than unpacking your #700 Hudson and 3 or 4 passengeer cars from under your bed, what would you have done? Remember, those that can't do - teach! Those that can't teach - teach gym! You should listen and learn before you comment.
TDude, it's okay to disagree without being disagreeable.
Yes but there is also nothing wrong with expressing your true feelings. When i disagree with a point that's intelligently presented, I respond in kind or at least I try to. When I read a post where the writer is posting just to have something to say, without having any real concept OR actually posting mis-information - in my book, they are fair game. I think john has on more than one occasion, taken some liberties with the information presented. He's twisted it and distorted it to suit his perverse view of NY transit.
Oddly enough, I now have an observation for you. Last week, John was villified for some of his extreme political views along with one other subtalk poster. Villified far in excess of what I've done. Yet, you did not criticize any of those subtalkers or jump to John's defense despite the fact that i did. What's the story behind that?
I wasn't on the train and neither were you. Excuse me for speculating, but suppose the rocks shattered the engineers vision glass (windshield) or side glass. Isn't that enough reason to take the train out of service? Was the engineer hurt? Nobody cared with the exception of train dude. The attitide of Clayton and yourself in this thread is despicable. Do you really care that transportation employees are sitting ducks for injury. Railroad engineers, NYCT T/O's and C/R's are injured regularly by thrill seeking jerks.
There was no mention of shattered glass in the cab. If that indeed did happen then the train should've went out of service. No mention was made of injuries, just the inference that the rocks somehow damaged the train, so I could not have known that happened anyway.
I always thought the front windows were shatter proof, especially re-enforced with thick glass to protect the engineers from hazards. You bring up a major hazard in engineers and T/O's line of work, getting killed or injured from debris. If anybody was injured in the LIRR 510 incident, then the person who threw the rocks should be tried for attempted murder.
I was responding to your post because I felt it was rude and sarcastic, ridiculing the railroad, and your assumption that the train was taken o/s for some frivilous reason.
Well then I apologize, if I sounded rude. It really does make you think, being a railroad engineer has it's dangers. BTW I am on DSL now so Subtalk is loading lots faster.
I am on DSL now so Subtalk is loading lots faster.
Nice to know that my tax dollars are supporting you in such a fine fashion. And you wonder why most of us think social services spending should be slashed????
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It doesn't cost much more for DSL, it actually is cheaper than the huge phone bill I spend on time on line. And I guess according to you mentally ill people don't deserve to have any fun. Now that I'm NOT moving I'm gonna be looking for a job soon. I'm not waiting anymore, as the events of Sept.11 remind us we must live each day to the fullest.
I'm gonna be looking for a job soon.
I hope you find a good one... it will be better emotionally for you and financially for all of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The front windows are not reinforced, but not the side windows. Kids that throw rocks aren't aiming for the front windshield.
wait a second. What happened is people threw rocks at 510 near the Fresh pond yard. 510 got rocks thrown at it, but that didn't cause the problem. The train made it to Dunton tower and then it went into emergency or something. He had to charge up and Jamaica was the last stop. They had inspectors looking at the bottom of the train so nothing happened to the Engineer or the windshield. The locomotive sounded fine when it arrived at Jamaica, but they didn't move it so all Diesels were stopping on track 7 which i never saw before. Anyways the Engineer did get off and everyone went down inspecting the train. I don't believe it was the rocks. I believe those DM30s are becoming a little problematic. I say LIRR should have gotten Genesis's. But guess what they are problematic too. According to Trains magazine in 1997, Amtrak brought them in 93, and Amtrak learned those Intakes proved that Genesis's cannot handle harsh cold weather. But u see Metro North brought some anyway. So let the DE30s and DM30s do their thing. By the way, a while back Long island Railroad did mention leasing locos from Amtrak and have the DE30s and DM30s repaired. They are cracking alot, and there is nothing wrong with the Bi levels.
P.S. Dunton Yard had several bi-levels, several DE30s and Several engineers ready for deployment. Sure i left on a Train to Far Rockaway, but i am sure that within a matter of minutes one extra train with a Extra crew took those stranded passengers to their Oyster bay line destinations.
besides LIRR doesn't screw up half as many times as the subway. Talking to Motorman i know, something goes wrong EVERY SINGLE DAY!!
LIRR cannot say something goes wrong everyday................
Perhaps the original post was unclearly written or just misinterpretted. However, it seemed pretty clear from what I read that the ABD was due tot he rock throwing. Now the story has suddenly changed. If so and the rock throwing wa not an issue, and rock throwing is a usual event, why was it even mentioned.
As for your other contention that there were pleanty of trains available for service and could have been crewed and moved almostat a moment's notice. Which trains on what tracks were not assigned to specific runs for later that evening? Perhaps you should have pointed it out to LIRR management that the train on XX track is crewed and unassigned and should replace the Bad Order train on 7 track. I'm sure that information would have helped them do a better job.
"besides LIRR doesn't screw up half as many times as the subway. Talking to Motorman i know,
Well perhaps you'd care to share your source. After all anyone can have a makebelieve friend. Besides, most errors on the subways begin as wrong routes, signal over-runs, switch run-throughs, opening on the wrong side, etc, and are committed by hourly employees and dealt with by managers and supervisors. So what is your point? Besides, how many trips per day does the NYCT run compared to the LIRR? How do the daily passenger-miles compare for the two systems. Your meaningless comparrison is even more meaningless when the denomenators are common.
Profile of the perp, is not from the neighberhood, doesn't know what a train above ground looks like, let alone one pulled by a locamotive.
The perp was polloy with a nimbeyus locus. The perp has zero regard for the safety and well being of others, and felt immune from retaliation or prosocution, a coward and fool.
If that branch had more use and the area was acustom to the frequency rather than the rarity of service, this type of behavior would happen less.
avid
http://www.sciam.com/explorations/2001/100901wtc/
More information about the structural integrity of the said buildings -- not really subway relevant, but there had been discussions on this board, I seem to recall.
Lexcie
from Morning Call
Montreal had the same thing on their Metro line right after their system opened back in the late 1960s advertising a brand of cigarettes, which as you traveled would show a box tilting sideways and a cigarette coming out.
Is the ad like the pictures that were on the abandoned BMT Myrtle Avenue Station platform a number of years ago? I think there was another one someplace in the NY system at the same time.
With a succession of pictures, the images seemed kinetic.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Same principle, except that the Myrtle Ave. one wasn't advertising anything like the Montreal and Philly displays do.
Speaking of the Myrtle Ave. one, what happened to it? I used to love seeing it when I was a kid (about 10 or so years ago), but I don't think it's there anymore.
It's still there, but it's in such serious disrepair that it might as well not be.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Last weekend, I went up to where MARTA had theirs installed to check it out. They have a Dansi ad as well. Looking from the train, it looks like a reflection off the window. I got off the train at Sandy Springs where I could take a close look at the projection system, which ended right when the station started. The system just consists of thin strips of light and when you pass by them quickly, they blur together. I could move my head back and forth fast and be able to read what was said, so speed does not affect the way it works.
On the property and is in the process of being delivered to East 180th St. I love railfanning from the apartment window!!!
HAPPY RAILFANNING.
-Stef
According to Good Day New York, the N and R trains are now "Suspended Indefinitely." I thought there would be a timeframe to this, because I originally heard they just needed to patch up the roofs of the tunnels. Which is true?
According to Good Day New York, the N and R trains are now "Suspended Indefinitely." I thought there would be a timeframe to this, because I originally heard they just needed to patch up the roofs of the tunnels. Which is true?
Earlier estimates said approximately six months. Why that's become "indefinitely," I don't know, but a possible explanation is that the MTA doesn't want to get locked into a definite timeframe. If they say six months, and the work actually takes seven, people will complain. That won't happen with a vague estimate.
It's easier to say; it also keeps anyone from making a commitment. They've always said 'at least six months'.
-Hank
Stop being calm, rational and reasonable or they will throw you off this board.
No kidding...
-Hank
hahaha....Imagine that.
Peace,
ANDEE
I would think that it is all tied in to how quickly the WTC debris can be cleared away amd how structurally safe the streets and surrounding buildings are, especially with all those very heavy cranes moving about. Those vibrations combined with trains running under the street may be of concern to all the powers that be (I know it would be to me).
Where is the southernmost stop for these trains now?
Canal St (Bridge) is the last Manhattan stop for BMT Broadway trains. 1 trains are running on the 3 from Chambers to New Lots, the 3 is truncated at 14th St. Both the 1 and 2 are running local all times.
-Hank
One slight change-- During overnight hours the 1 ends at Chambers and then returns to 242. The 3 will not run during overnight hours-- use shuttle bus form 135 and Lenox.
Hopefully they can get access to the tracks at City Hall so they can run some extra trains to/from Queens. There really needs to be more service on Broadway, so hopefully they will open up those tracks to turn an extra line or two. This would be my plan-
Diamond Q-same as now
Q local-run express on Broadway and terminate at 57&7th
W-remain local on Broadway to Ditmars
R-would run from 71st/Continental to Canal street, turn at City Hall, Broadway local
I won't be suprised if the MTA puts plans on hold for the V until the lower Manhattan BMT opens again. Though if MTA doesn't add any service to Broadway BMT, I think that the V should be started. It would provide more service to 6th avenue. Funny how we moved service to the BMT with the flip and now may add service back to 6th ave.
My thing that I can't understand:
Why can't they run N train service (or R) into Whitehall St?
That station wasn't affected and they can turn around trains back to Brooklyn.
This is better than the present service plan how? The J & M trains stop just a short distance from that station, and people can use those trains.
They can, but every train that goes to Whitehall (and terminates there) is one train that doesn't go up Nassau, with its connections to the 1/2/4/5/6/A/C/F/Q/W.
No. They can run a rush hour "TT"-like train between Bay Parkway or Ninth Ave and Whitehall Street. 15 J/M trains per hour is far below capaaity and need not be touched. There are a couple of hundred surplus R46's laying around in Queens.
Better to use those surplus R46 cars to restore R service from Queens to Canal Street and put the circle-Q train back on the Broadway express tracks. There should be more Broadway express service and having two Q trains with two separate terminals at both ends is confusing.
But I think a rush-hour or weekday Whitehall-Bay Pkwy service might be helpful. Broad Street on the J/M is farther from Whitehall than Bowling Green is from South Ferry. But it wouldn't need to run all that frequently because it would only be going to Whitehall.
I definately think running the R to Canal from Queens is very important. There is not enough service on Broadway, which is my only gripe about the subway adjustments. But it's out of the TA's hands until the authorities open tracks below Canal street.
Good idea.
If this happened then I'd also want to see the W return to the express in Manhattan, so you'd have the Q and R running local and the diamond-Q and W running express.
They can't use the BMT south of Prince, so forget City Hall and Canal-local.
My point is simply that the Nassau transfers are far more useful than Whitehall. (How many Brooklyn passengers transfer to the Staten Island ferry anyway?) Whatever service you propose sending to Whitehall, I propose sending instead up Nassau -- terminating at Chambers or Essex if it's not warranted across the Williamsburg Bridge. I suppose a few specials to Whitehall wouldn't hurt much, but they wouldn't help much either (to Brooklyn, everyone would walk to Broad to avoid the long waits at Whitehall; from Brooklyn, some passengers would undoubtedly end up on the wrong train and have to cross the East River two extra times to get out of the dead end).
It must be killing the TA about having to give all this new emphasis and importance to the BMT Eastern divsion. It wasn't long ago that a rush hour M is all the connected it. I hope they are having second thoughts about slimming down the ROW between Chambers and Essex.
I think that the City has not allowed service into the station so it may not be an NYCT issue, the same goes for tracks south of Canal st.
that's just *^&$%%^&# pathetic if it's true.
The best I had heard is that they did some temporary shoring up and roof patching as well as vibration monitoring. The station platforms at WTC/Cortlandt on the N/R survived but obviously you can't exit (like a roach motel?) but a communications equipment room didn't survive. I have heard at work that the N/R is supposed to come back by the end of this month. Stay tuned.
[According to Good Day New York, the N and R trains are now "Suspended Indefinitely." I thought there would be a timeframe to this, because I originally heard they just needed to patch up the roofs of the tunnels. Which is true?]
Let's parse the phrase "suspended indefinitely":
The word "suspended" means that both route are only TEMPORARILY absent, and that they WILL start up again when trains are able/permitted to operate through the area.
The "indefinitely" part indicates that it's "not definitely" known when the trains will be able/permitted to operate through the area. Giving any kind of time frame is useless because people ignore disclaimers like "at least" part and expect an exact date.
If you want the real Subway shirts to wear to our play-offs,
or just want to show you still love the Mets, I finally have
my Yankee and Shea baseball jerseys for Men, Juniors and Kids
on my website:
nycsubwayline.com
Last I heard WMATA was having problems with these new Metrorail cars. Is that true and have these problems been overcome? I'm looking for a trip to DC and I'd like to see the new cars if possible.
Joe C
There have been problems since who knows when and when they correct them, someting else comes up. My advice, go to the Green Line at either Shaw, Mount Vernon Square, or Gallery Place, the approximate midpoint of the line. Note a car number of a green line train (NOT yellow) and when that car comes around in the same direction (it should pass twice), you know the CAF cars aren't in service. I think you can get the number of one train in both directions and when both pass in the opposite direction, you've seen everything but I am not sure if that works.
Note: I have not tried what I am suggesting...
What you suggest would work, but you don't nessarily have to go to the midpoint of the line, becuase it will take the same amount of time to see every train go by no mater where you are at. Of course, you'd have to be a REALLY patient person to do that. I know I would never do that.
The time to se all the trains being run on a line is a little more than the time it takes to make a round trip on that line. You have to take into account trains that stay in multiple-track terminal stations while a train on the other track leaves.
While I was looking for the R142's last year, I would do this. It took a LONG time on both the (2) and the (6).
Thanx for the info. That scheme you suggest usually works unless the train in question is removed somewhere. Same with buses. I have used this method often. Most of the time I wind up foaming at the mouth by the time it is over.
joe c
Speaking of the CAF cars, I have seen photos of these cars.
Check this page.
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/yards/graphics/greenbelt.htm
If you stand at the midpoint and note trains going in both directions, as WMATAGMOAGH suggested, it would take only slightly more than the one-way trip time time to see every train on that line.
Not often the case with WMATA which is why the midpoint is better.
click here
Is it just me, and I'm sure people find them useful, but do you think you might be able to post a single message a day of "Headlines" with these links to various articles?
sure thing.
If you can breathe the stuff caught in the AC filters and live.....
AMEN
click here
Half of the articles say "Doom is just around the corner" and the other half say "Act normal, the city needs that". They're trying to drive us all crazier than we already are.
You just noticed that?
Nobody can do the work of terrorists better than our own media. I'll leave it there.
Another fine "how to" article from the press. Although I guess it isn't really rocket science to figure this one out.
Everything in the article is available to the public via the freedom of information act.
(Everything in the article is available to the public via the freedom of information act.)
Even so, it offended me. The way it's written, it's like the author is secretly hoping someone will go after the subways and not whatever mode of transit he rides.
Hold on a second. This "how to" may be moot. How was it that the Japanesse terrorist group "Aum Shinrykio" (I know I mispelled that) was able to poison a good portion of the Tokyo subway six years ago? All anyone has to do is to take a tape of that and study it.
My advice: all that one can do now is to watch his or her back while riding public transit. Or, when driving.
How was it that the Japanesse terrorist group "Aum Shinrykio" was able to poison a good portion of the Tokyo subway six years ago?
They spent $300,000 to kill 13 people. They could have done that with a $50 shotgun.
Nah, they wanted to be fancy...
Okay, so they were both crazy and stupid.
Unfortunately the people who we are dealing with now are crazy and smart.
True, true.
They planned to kill a lot more people. Goes to show that chemical weapons are difficult to use effectively (as the utter failures of their biological attack attmepts do for the difficulty of using germ weapons).
I've been reading the reassuring Web sites.
Seth
The media is doing a real horrible job covering the story, I mean it's complete and all but the way they are making everyone panick. Bush is saying get ready for a retaliation, while Guilani is saying, New Yorkers get back to work. We all know that our city could be hit with another attack in retailation. In my opinion, you can't really get back to normal with the thought that you could die.
If you agree with me, great, if you don't agree with me, great. But don't go all out just because you don't agree with what I say or think...
Right Here
I’m planning a photography trip to NYC soon, and I’m looking for some help from Bronx IRT and Brooklyn BMT riders:
When I visited NYC in June, work fences were just beginning to go up on the 2/5 Westchester Av elevated north of Jackson Av, and the fences were starting to come down on the 2 elevated on White Plains Rd north of Bronx Park East. What locations on these lines now have these fences?
Also, the West End line in Brooklyn has had work fences for several years on most of the line south of 9th Avenue – any removals/changes to these fences?
Appreciate any help – thanks!
Jim D.
They are going up south of E180th St in various sections.
The line from South of East 180th St to Jackson Av should have all barricades in place soon. Meanwhile, the work from 241 St to north of Bx Pk E is done, barricades have come down.
The West End? Work is still in progress, although points south of 62nd St lack the barricades.
-Stef
A visit to the West End Line late this summer had those fences up north of Bay 50th Street.
--Mark
They appear to be down in some places.
-Stef
About 2 weeks ago, I did the West End and did not encounter any fences. In the Bronx, those nuisance fences seem to go up and down at an incredible rate. One day they were up, the next they were down and placed in another spot, usually right in the line of photograph. Of course, the line south of E 180th is the best spot to shoot as you have both lines with a slew of Redbirds, the R142's and one or two trains of R62A's. Good luck and have fun!
joe c
ps: some TA cops don't allow the photographing. Some do. A coin toss.
Thanks Buddy!
I don't think cops will bother a TA employee, and I spend my time taking pics along the elevated stations. Gotta try taking pictures of passing 2 and 5 Trains with a digital camera. I have yet to do that.
Take Care,
Stef
The Running With Scissors Group gives Urban Exploration tours, E-mail me for more details.
I am planning to go to Metro Norths Open House in Croton next Saturday the 20th Who else is planningv to go.????
Me.
Lou from Brooklyn are talking seriously about doing it. Trying to talk the little women into it at this point ... gee honey lets go see the Fall Foilage by train the 20th ... < G >
Mr t
I m planning to come up from Virginia for the day, and Mark Feinman said the was coming too. I just have not decided how I will get up there. Taking Amtrak would be neat, but it is a 2 hour drive to Washington Union Station just to catch the train. I may drive into Brooklyn liker I did with Fred, and train my way up
Do know you can board the MNRR CROTON LINE near
225 Street on the 1 train (from Bklyn)...
Does the M-N Express as well as Local stop there ?
Mr t
According to my latest Metro North Timetable the Northbound Expresses stop at Marble Hill at 13 minutes after the hour and the locals 40 minutes past. On Saturdays. Southbound Exp Leaves Croton 29 past and the local on the hour. Running Time to Croton Exp 30 m inutes 3 stops Local 45 minutes
I was looking up schedules about a month ago in preparation for this event, and I think what I'm going to do is take a bus to NYC, then the MNR to Croton. However, as I'm not familiar with the lay of the land, is there any way to transfer from the New Haven line to get to Croton, even if it involves taking a bus between two stations? I live in Rhode Island and it seems almost redundant to go into NYC, out to LI, then back into the city, when the (geographically) simpler way would seemingly be to go to New Haven, to Croton, and on to NYC.
Thanks in advance.
Chris
Sorry, that last message wasn't as clear as it could be. Basically, I'm trying to get from Rhode Island to Croton to NYC, and wonder if there's a simpler way to change from the New Haven line to the Hudson R. line than going into nyc or 125th st. station, like a bus from new canaan or something. It may be more trouble than it's worth . . .
C
No, you would have to transfer at GCT or 125th. the time you take a bus across the Bronx, it is not worth it
Thank you Bob, I figured it would probably be more trouble than it was worth. Appreciate your response!
C
Hope to see you there, read post above on what I will be wearing
Cool, Bob; I'll definitely look for you. I don't know yet what I'll be wearing, but I saw in another thread a reference to the "Secret SubTalk Batsignal" -- i.e., writing an "S" on the back of one's hand. I might do that!
By way of introduction, I'm a regular BusTalker, but I don't usually post on SubTalk. Still, commuter and freight rail interests me a lot. I live in Providence, RI; am from Washington, DC.
Chris
Looking forward to it Chris, and any other Sub talker there. Look foer Brighton Beach Bob with his Blue cap at Croton next week.
Yes and it saves 3.00 each way then taking it from GCT
I'm thinking of the 10:53 or 11:53 express out of GCT. My nephew (8) is confirmed but don't know about the wife.
I'll know later in the week.
(leaning towards the 10:53).
I've decided to be on the 9:53 out of GCT for CROTON-HARMON (49 scheduled minutes) arriving at 10:42am.
Hope to be on that train to, maybe getting on at Marble Hill, 1st car, I will be wesring a Blue Baseball cap with #1Brighton Beach Bob on it(Boarding depends if i stay on the Upper West Side or in Corona)
Self went last year.
I am, and I can't wait.
I m going, don t know what time I will be there, but I am going. I will be wearing a light blue baseball cap that Slow Beach Fred gave me saying #1Brighton Beach Bob. I still have not decided how I will get up there yet.
This Friday I will be taking a field trip to Boston for a little T-Party with fellow subtalker Lexcie. If anyone is going to be in and around the Boston area I would love to meet up with them and maybe do a little joint subfanning. I have never rode the T and I hope the cover the whole system and maybe get in an MTBA ride. I will be arriving Thu night c.9:30 on the Inland NEDirect train and I will be leaving Saturday morning around 10 all from South Station. I will be displaying the Sceret Subtalk Signal by writing a large black S on the back of my hand.
"have never rode the T and I hope the cover the whole system and maybe get in an MTBA ride."
The MBTA and the T are the same thing.
When used in concert the T is transit, the MTBA is commuter rail.
"When used in concert the T is transit, the MTBA is commuter rail."
Maybe in your mind but don't try it in Boston noone will no what you mean. Commuter rail is either called "The T", "The Train", "The Commuter Rail" or "tThe B&M". The subway/streetcar system is called "The T" or "The Subway".
Incorrect. The Commuter Rail is called the Commuter Rail or the MBTA, and the transit is called the T, although sometimes it is also called the MBTA.
What is your source for this information? My post reflects only the way the systems are referred to by non-employees.
Lexcie, you sound like someone from The People's Republic of Cambridge. No one, not anybody, says, "I ride the MBTA to work!"
Either you drive or take the T. When asked where you live, you say, "I live on Ruggles St, on the Orange Line."
If you live in the burbs and take the T, you take the "train" unless you live north of Boston and let it slip out that you take the B&M. If you're a yuppie, you might say commuter rail.
If you're older and live west of Boston, you go to Riverside to get the "trolley" If you're younger, you'll take the Green Line.
If you live on the South Shore, you'll take the Red Line, because you can't get a seat on the train.
And when you've been in Boston long enough, you'll get to know which line is called "The Country Club." ;-)
An if you go back far enough you have 'train' (Red), 'elevated' (Orange), 'tunnel' (Blue) and car (Green)!
eg: Take the train to Park Street Under and change for a car to Lake Street.
Rhode Islanders take the T into Boston and transfer to the subway.
>>>Rhode Islanders take the T into Boston and transfer to the subway. <<<
THERE'S a burden I'll NEVER have to deal with....8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
THERE'S a burden I'll NEVER have to deal with....8-)
Me neither; I usually drive into Boston.
Actually, considering how eratic the commuter rail can be (especially weekends and holidays) I can understand having to drive in. Even my local bus line, which dates to the trolley days, makes it impossible for me to use the MBTA at certain hours!
Not to mention the MBTA's (and every other system's outside New York) "hours of operation" problem... I got stuck once when I drove to Riverside and took the Green Line in. If I take "the T" at all, it's from my ex-girlfriend's in Wilmington.
The T now has late night service on Fridays and Saturdays. So far it has been successful and may lead to better service in the future.
The service is limited to extending certain bus lines, plus paralleling rapid transit lines, from 1am to 2:30am with half-hourly service, on Friday and Saturday nights only. The trains still stop running before 1am.
And if you want to ride the commuter rail just get off amtrak at 128 station
"secret subtalk signal"? Holy subway, batman? what do you mean by that? GEEZ!
Jersey Mike,
I would love to meet up with you, maybe sometime on Friday afternoon. Feel free to e-mail me. -Nick
Friday is a bad day for me, but it's too bad you are not staying over on Saturday. The Boston Street Railway Association meets at the Grand Lodge of Masons at Boylston & Tremont Sts., 7:30 PM, lots of good current events and an entertainment following. Non-members are welcome. Normal date is first Saturday of the month but moves back a week if that date falls on a holiday weekend.
Jersy Mike, make sure you get a flash pass ... believe they come in one & three day versions.
You're supose to pay extra on certain lines, but last year the 3/4 Ton Crew did all the colors & never were asked for cash (well to be completely honest only Bill from Minn did the purple).
BTW, have heard that the Trackless Trolleys now run on Saturdays ... they're in Cambridge.
P.S. be careful with the camera as you're not supose to do it, so ask first ... most operators will say OK.
Mr t
I heard this from a source, I'm not exactly sure of the website right now, but that the proposed purple line might actually have a stop at New Hampshire and University Blvd, Langly Park, due to the immense amount of people who catch the bus to go to the Metrorail stations, probably Silver Spring and a few people might take the Metrobus to Fort Totten and/or PG Plaza. I think this would be a great idea. Of course, my family doesn't exactly live there anymore, so, well, it wouldn't exactly effectg us, but I think it would be great for all of the people that need it. Of course, it would have to be an el, but house would they elevate it? Both roads are only 4 lanes and there is a lot of traffic on both of them. Plus, a huge pillar in the road wouldn't be attractive. Maybe it could be a subway, although it was be very difficult and would cost a lot of money. What do you think?
It will probably exist if they build the outer purple line. Remember, the inner one won't go to Langley Park.
Was up to the Kawasaki Plant last night with some buds of mines....Here were our findings.......
1) R-142A: Up to Cars 7590 are just about done which leaves 20 cars (2 sets) that need to be brought in and final assembled on the primary order. Which there were about 5 cars in the yard under tarps (most likely 7591-7595).
2) R-143: Cars 8109-8112 are on the assembly line, close to completed assembly. There were three R-143 cars under tarps in the lot (most likely 8113-8115, 8116 will probably come tonight).
----------
I was up to the Bombardier Plattburgh Plant with some other buds on Monday....Here were the findings.....
Cars #6566-6575 are ready to roll this way. Car #6801 was just completed (which is wierd because 6801 is part of the option order cars). There were two un-numbered cars in the line up to that were full assembled (1 A Car and 1 B Car). (Pix were taken here and I will ship them to Dave Soon!)
I will try to keep up with the latest findings!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Keep up the good work, buddy!
Someone must be extremely confident that the R-143s will pass the acceptance test as production is underway.
Well, the R-142 Era is really here....
-Stef
Was the order was to done by Next Year? WOW! That's FAST!!!! I got a few Questions.
1. Would #6801 would be the first Option Order Cars to come?
2. When Cars #6566-#6675 should be in service and on what line?
3. Are the R-142's are aready in service on the (5)? And what is a good time to see one?
i thought 6981 was the first to the option order.6301-6801 is only 500 cars.maybe im wrong.
6556-6675 should be on the 2
i think r142s are on the five, aleast sometimes
until then
[2] Seventh Avenue Express
r142man
A friend asked me this question:
Is there a general information number for The TA Employment Dept at 1250 Bway??
I think it's like 212-268-????
They are trying to check out what list number they are up from an exam they took some time ago.
This can be called a true Elevated Subway Station, and if you think I am kidding think again.
It can be seen, the Underground Subway Station is actully above ground and above serveral roads. You can walk under it, its amazing, and we can see while riding the 4 line.
Its the 174-175 Street Station on the D line. Because of the Elevation of the Grand Concourse near the Cross Bronx Expressway, the Subway instead of dipping extrmely below the Cross Bronx and serveral other Streets it stood under the Concourse and a bridge section was built over an avenue. So its the highest Elevated Subway Station in the NYCTA system. Want proof, go take the 4 and look towards the concourse near the mount eden station.
Now in the case where I am mistakened, dont beat me with sticks.
"the Subway instead of dipping extrmely below the Cross Bronx"
Wasn't the Cross Bronx built well after the subway?
Yes, it was.
Is it practical to build enclosed elevated lines? I was thinking that such a method could allay complaints of noise caused by elevated lines, and enable the building of more elevated lines.
:-) Andrew
Modern elevated lines can be very quite and don't look that bad. The problem is all people think about is older elevated lines that don't look that good and are very loud.
The stretch of the J from the portal west of Sutphin Boulevard station to around the crtossover outside 121 St is pretty quiet. But once it gets past that, it's loud.
It was NOT originally built that way.
The IND line under the Grand Concourse was built in the 1930's. The "bridgework" seen under the subway and above the CBE was built when the CBE was being built in the early 1950's. It was cheaper to do that than to rebuild the subway below the CBE. (I may be wrong on the date of the CBE construction...but I was raised int he Fordhma area, and I don't ever remember construction on the D Line in my early youth...so it was before my memory kicked in!)
>>This can be called a true Elevated Subway Station, and if you think I am kidding think again.
It can be seen, the Underground Subway Station is actully above ground and above serveral roads. You can walk under it, its amazing, and we can see while riding the 4 line.
Its the 174-175 Street Station on the D line. Because of the Elevation of the Grand Concourse near the Cross Bronx Expressway, the Subway instead of dipping extrmely below the Cross Bronx and serveral other Streets it stood under the Concourse and a bridge section was built over an avenue. So its the highest Elevated Subway Station in the NYCTA system. Want proof, go take the 4 and look towards the concourse near the mount eden station.
Now in the case where I am mistakened, dont beat me with sticks. <<
Christopher,
You are lucky, I was about to get out the sticks.
The entire #4 line from just south of 161st to Woodlawn was built as an Elevated line on purpose. That area west of the Concourse is a valley (as is the area east of the Concourse). The Bronx is filled with hills and valleys. To say that it is an Elevated subway line is stating the obvious. It wasn't going to be underground (maybe it should have been but it wasn't).
The highest elevated subway station in the entire system is not 174th-175th but rather Smith-9th Street in Brooklyn (F, G line). It stands about 90 feet above the street.
He said the D line station was above ground in a subway at 174th-175th. I can't attest if that's true, but I wanted to tell you that he was referring to the D and not the 4.
In Philadelphia, the Broad Street subway crosses above Roosevelt Expressway (a limited-access extension of Roosevelt Boulevard) on an enclosed bridge installed as part of the highway construction. The road, built maybe in the 1950s, goes through a deep cut considerably below the level of North Broad Street and the circa-1928 subway line.
The Broad St subway also has a unique 3-level crossing at Vine St. The 'new' ('91) Vine St Expressway took part of the former mezzanine at the Race-Vine station when it was built, so that Broad St crosses over the Expressway which crosses over the subway.
Does anyone else think it's kind of strange that the subway overpasses weren't altered to let some light into the subway tunnel? Riding the trains you'd never know you weren't underground at these points. Some light and air would make the ride a little more pleasant.
Mark
When Roosevelt Blvd was first built under the Broad Street Subway, there was a space that let light in. It was closed later.
Why? Safety?
On the Bloor St. bridge over the Don River Valley in Toronto the subway crosses on a lower level with the sides open to the light. Unlike the other locations cited, this one was built this way originally - a subway with a view - unusual for that line which is almost entirely underground. There's no station there however!
I've ridden across that bridge. The view is really nice. On the western branch of the same line there is another overpass, at Old Mill station. It's on a bridge, right next to antoher rather old beautiful bridge. It was one of my favorite stations in Toronto.
Mark
The D train station at 174th-175th is underground. Paet of the reason that section of the Concourse line is built on an underground bridge is because of the underpass that goes under the Concourse. Because of the topography of that section of the Bronx the Grand Concourse is about the same height (At least it looks that way to the naked eye) of the Jerome Av elevated.
I always thought that the south end of the Kingbridge Road station, on the Concourse line, qualified as an "underground el"....
Peace,
ANDEE
Another interesting "elevated" subway line is on the BMT Fourth Avenue subway in Brooklyn heading south on the local track from 59 St to Bay Ridge Ave (now served by the J). If you look out the right side window you suddenly see cutouts in the tunnel wall and you are looking down on the NY & Atlantic RR Bay Ridge yard out in the open!
This is true, which now begs the other question....which station in the system built in open trench style is the deepest below street level?
Good point.Though technically thats the shallowest subway station in the system.And the Grand Concourse line was well built prior to the Cross Bronx expressway.
I know I see the 174-175 St "subway" station right before I go into 176St on the 4 line.
It really looks as if Governor Pataki's and Mayor Giuliani's request for $54 billion in federal assistance is a textbook case of asking for way too much. I suppose there's some point to asking for caviar, hoping that you'll get filet mignon. In this case, however, I fear that the city and state will end up antagonizing Congress (we know, of course, that the current feelings of sympathy toward New York won't last) and end up severely disappointed.
About $3 billion of the proposal is intended for transit-related purposes. Some of this money is clearly needed for post-9/11 repair work. But George and Rudy also are seeking federal $$$ for the Second Avenue subway, the LIRR-Grand Central link, and, believe it or not, a high-speed rail link from NYC to the Albany area. Those may be worthy projects, of course, but trying to position them as somehow related to the recovery needs is just plain silly.
Better to ask for too much than for too little.
I wonder if asking for NY to be treated like the rest of the country is asking too much. I'd rather skip the bailout, and have the rest of the country stop draining us from this point forward.
I'd rather skip the bailout, and have the rest of the country stop draining us from this point forward.
My sentiments (sort of). New York routinely sends many billions more in income tax revenue to the federal government than it receives in federal outlays. This shouldn't be considered a "bailout"--just an overdue balancing of the ledger.
They have asked for 3 billion. I don't think that 3 billion will be enough for all that stuff, do you? Just reconstructing the terminal under WTC and rebuilding the 1/9 may approach the 3 billion dollar mark.
Where is all this money coming from anyway?
Where is all this money coming from anyway?
Look at your paycheck stub.
You forgot repaving some upstate roads.
Arti
Personally, i think the TA needs to run a shuttle service from Bowling Green or perhaps some IRT station on the Lex Side to South Ferry. Also, why don't they just connect the shuttle from 21 St-QB to Grand St?!
Personally, i think the TA needs to run a shuttle service from Bowling Green or perhaps some IRT station on the Lex Side to South Ferry. Also, why don't they just connect the shuttle from 21 St-QB to Grand St?!
You must be new.
1. The Grand/B'way-lafayette thing was covered. Relay problems at Grand St.
2. Someone already had a thread about the Shuttle to South Ferry.
Did you hear about the man who turned around 5 Path trains and cut off service to the WTC terminal 11 minutes after the first plane hit the tower??!!
You mean the dispatcher who was doing is job just like any other dispatcher would?
Old news. That was posted here as soon as the information was known.
There have been over a quarter million postings on this board since the last time the counter was reset. Certain topics come up more than others and some slip by quickly and get reraised. my advice is don't be offended by the curt responses you got; the PATH thing was only recently on the news but it was on this board within a week of Sept 11!
A bit of advice, if you are new to the board, its better to respond to threads rather than to try to start one until you are fully up to speed on what's happening at a given time.
Gerry
A while ago, I posted about an exhibit at the Bayside Historical Society on the New York & North Shore Traction Co. Next Thursday, 10/18 at 7 PM, the BHS will present a slideshow of the line hosted by Joe Bux, including photos of streetcars superimposed on present-day scenes; see details at http://www.baysidehistorical.org/calendarevents/trolley02.html. The location has been moved to Sacred Heart Church Hall, 215-35 38th Ave, Bayside, and the November presentation has been cancelled.
Also, note that BHS will be reprinting New York & North Shore Traction Company by Vincent Seyfried.
(Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with BHS; I just receive the junk mail ;)).
I don't think there's been a post on this topic. If there has, I have one thing to say: You guys need to do a better job on the Subjects of posts. That said:
Today's NY Times reported that Pataki and Guiliani announced a 54 billion restoration plan for NY. It may have been in the other papers, and I'm sure that many other subtalkers have read that article.
Anyways, about 3 billion dollars of that 54 would be toward transportation improvements. The improvements would most likely include:
1. New Lower manhattan PATH terminal.
2. Finishing the Engineering work for a future Second Av subway
3. Completeing design of link between LIRR terminal and Grand Central.
Other plans possibly included would be: A high speed rail link between Schenectady and NYC, repairing upstate bridge crossings and modernizing crossings on the Canadian Border.
However, It is reported that a good portion of the plan, including the transportation part, will meet cool reception in Congress. The prevailing view (a quote from the paper) seems to be: ""Why just New York? Why just the northeast?""
As usual, those friendly republicans from the western states are the ones who oppose the plan the most, and were skeptical to pass the original emergency measure of 17.5 billion to clean-up/repair lower manhattan (Pataki has now stated that will cost 34 billion).
Already, Giuliani has stated that the city will make 1 billion dollars in municipal cuts, and will freeze all hirings. (I'm taking a wild guess that this uncludes NYCT). As long as these arrogant congressmen continue their small-minded thinking, New York will continue to spiral downward from these attacks.
Anyways, about 3 billion dollars of that 54 would be toward transportation improvements. The improvements would most likely
include:
1. New Lower manhattan PATH terminal.
2. Finishing the Engineering work for a future Second Av subway
3. Completeing design of link between LIRR terminal and Grand Central.
Other plans possibly included would be: A high speed rail link between Schenectady and NYC, repairing upstate bridge crossings and modernizing crossings on the Canadian Border.
However, It is reported that a good portion of the plan, including the transportation part, will meet cool reception in Congress. The
prevailing view (a quote from the paper) seems to be: ""Why just New York? Why just the northeast?""
As usual, those friendly republicans from the western states are the ones who oppose the plan the most, and were skeptical to pass the original emergency measure of 17.5 billion to clean-up/repair lower manhattan (Pataki has now stated that will cost 34 billion).
Already, Giuliani has stated that the city will make 1 billion dollars in municipal cuts, and will freeze all hirings. (I'm taking a wild
guess that this uncludes NYCT). As long as these arrogant congressmen continue their small-minded thinking, New York will continue to spiral downward from these attacks.
You're missing the point by blaming the congressmen. It's fair to say that the events of September 11 and the aftermath have been quite burdensome for the federal government's budget as well as NYC's and NYS's. The economic repercussions are still being assessed, but it's fair to say that they'll be significant and will affect many parts of the country. NYC may be hit especially hard, that much is true, but it's not going to suffer alone.
Under these circumstances, asking Congress for a huge bailout package that includes, among other things, the LIRR-GCT link and high-speed rail to Schenectady, is asking too much.
You're missing the point by blaming the congressmen. It's fair to say that the events of September 11 and the aftermath have been quite burdensome for the federal government's budget as well as NYC's and NYS's. The economic repercussions are still being assessed, but it's fair to say that they'll be significant and will affect many parts of the country. NYC may be hit especially hard, that much is true, but it's not going to suffer alone.
I get sick of hearing that crap. New York City was attacked. Not Chicago, Not San Francisco, not a town in Iowa with a population of 1,209 people. No other city just had 13 million sq. feet of office space destroyed (another 16.5 million damaged). No other city is facing losses of tax revenue of upwards of 12 billion dollars. Has any other city suddenly had to suddenly cut it's budgets drastically? You're telling me not to blame the congressmen, but they even were skeptical about signing the initial 17.5 billion dollar package that is presently paying for the clean-up work now. And, who said that those projects that I mentioned in the post were necessarily going to be a part of the plan? Giuliani specifically said that only projects related to the WTC attack would end up in the 'final cut'. Do you think that 3 billion is too much for rebuilding the 1/9 south ferry line, the PATH terminal and a possible Second Av link to that site? I never said that all of those projects would go in the package, I merely said that it included 3 billion dollars in the package.
You're missing the point by blaming the congressmen. It's fair to say that the events of September 11 and the aftermath have been quite burdensome for the federal government's budget as well as NYC's and NYS's. The economic repercussions are still being assessed, but it's fair to say that they'll be significant and will affect many parts of the country. NYC may be hit especially hard, that much is true, but it's not going to suffer alone.
I get sick of hearing that crap. New York City was attacked. Not Chicago, Not San Francisco, not a town in Iowa with a population of 1,209 people. No other city just had 13 million sq. feet of office space destroyed (another 16.5 million damaged). No other city is facing losses of tax revenue of upwards of 12 billion dollars. Has any other city suddenly had to suddenly cut it's budgets drastically?
If it turns out that the attacks have severe negative repercussions for the American economy (which may not be true; see Michael Thomas' column in the New York Observer for a very interesting take on that issue), they surely won't be limited to New York. For instance, the airline industry probably has suffered more than any other, and it's a relatively minor factor in New York's economy. Tourism in general, while hardly insignificant, is once again not the be-all and end-all of the economy. Most of the job-loss projections, if I recall correctly 100,000 is the latest number being bandied about, are just that, projections. It may indeed prove true that New York's economy will suffer greatly, but it's way too early to know for sure.
As far as the loss of office space is concerned, well, the square foot numbers sound daunting but actually are relatively small in comparison to the city's total inventory. And there are still over 23 million square feet of vacant office space.
And finally, the city's budget. All I can and will say is that major budget cuts in New York are not necessarily a bad idea.
You're telling me not to blame the congressmen, but they even were skeptical about signing the initial 17.5 billion dollar package that is presently paying for the clean-up work now. And, who said that those projects that I mentioned in the post were necessarily going to be a part of the plan? Giuliani specifically said that only projects related to the WTC attack would end up in the 'final cut'. Do you think that 3 billion is too much for rebuilding the 1/9 south ferry line, the PATH terminal and a possible Second Av link to that site? I never said that all of those projects would go in the package, I merely said that it included 3 billion dollars in the package.
The congressmen might have been skeptical because they were worried that the city would squander most of the money. New York's track record in managing its finances is not something that'll inspire confidence.
Lastly, $3 billion indeed is far too much for rebuilding the 1/9 and PATH.
So then, if the rest of the economy is not faring so badly, why should they even whine about sending funds to New York City? NYC is right now the only city that is in extreme suffering from the attacks: the downtown area is still a mess, and probably will be for some time to come. You said something about all the vacant office space, but that's hardly attracting the displaced companies, and most of them are moving away from the city.
Lower manhattan was the country's third largest financial district. It should be rebuilt with some help from the Feds.
All I can and will say is that major budget cuts in New York are not necessarily a bad idea.
Right. A 1 billion dollar budget cut and a hiring freeze. That freeze includes the Board of Ed.
Let's keep this in perspective - New York took a punch in the face on behalf of ALL of America ... $54 billion is peanuts in a multi-trillion dollar federal budget. If the airlines can be bailed out, certainly *WE* have earned it too.
They shouldn't ask for a dollar figure. They should ask for specific things.
My own point of view is that in fiscal 2003 (ie. next July 1), if the damage is as bad as I think it will be, NYC should declare bankruptcy rather than resort to ruinous tax increases or service cuts, and reorganize as a going concern with affordable obligations. That's "running the government like a business." Why ask not to have to pay New York State as much for Medicaid? Go broke, and don't pay. This is America.
My own point of view is that in fiscal 2003 (ie. next July 1), if the damage is as bad as I think it will be, NYC should declare bankruptcy rather than resort to ruinous tax increases or service cuts, and reorganize as a going concern with affordable obligations. That's "running the government like a business." Why ask not to have to pay New York State as much for Medicaid? Go broke, and don't pay. This is America.
Not to engage in too much I-told-you-so'ing, but I've been touting the advantages of municipal bankruptcy for a couple of years already.
Unfortunately, New York City has a history of being, let's just say, less than miserly when spending their funds, and that's the image that is still in the backs of peoples' minds around the country.
Right now, Congress is far more receptive to giving New York money probably than at any time since the beginning of the War on Poverty during the end of the Wagner administration but they are going to want to know where it's going to go and how it relates to rebuilding from the aftermath of the World Trade Center.
It would be great to extend lines into Eastern Queens, Southern Brooklyn and other areas, but unless the city can reasonbly go down to Washington and say "We need this project and it's related to the WTC recovery because..." they are not going to get the money -- when people outside the area hear Freddy Ferrer talking about using federal diaster funds to rebuild the Bronx, the attitude is "Same old spendthrift New York" and the reaction will be "If you don't think the money should be spent directly towards the WTC site, then you probably don't need the money."
And it doesn't matter which political party controlls Congress; if a project isn't tied directly into the Lower Manhattan recovery plan, it will be considered 'pork' by the reps around the country. That's why a Second Ave. project using the Nassau Street loop to get it over to the WTC area is far more likely to get funding than one that went straight down Water Street to South Ferry.
I have seen red signs on the Culver line(F) elevated track, that says "TEST TRACK".
Does anyone know what this is?
It's a test track, a track where they test technology.
Duhhhh...
Let me rephrase the question:
Does anyone know what technology they are testing on this test track?
Ok, now your question makes sense.
David responded on what the track is used for.
Ripped from the pages of "Duh" magazine!
(as Norm MacDonald used to say on SNL)
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
A test track is where signals,tracks and braking equipment is being tested.Or where trains are being tested,or to see if the rails are stable.
On the culver I believe they test brakes. The track is measured and any work done at CI they can test here. I do not beleive the track is specifly marked TEST for the new trains, all trains are tested here.
Every subway car in the system has to be track-tested once a year. The Culver Line express track was one of the main places this was being done, and I believe this is still the case.
David
And that part of the Culver Line is an ideal place to perform tests, as it is very straight and level.
- Lyle Goldman
I read a Bulletin about some chages done on the R142's. When I right about Bulletin that I read some people alway ask for the #, so today I made a copy of the Bulletin and are going to type it in word for word.
Hear it gose.
"
BULLENTIN NO.: 131-01 October 9, 2001
TO: ALL EPLOYEES (ESPECIALLY TRAIN OPERATORS AND DISATCHERS)
SUBJECT: OPERATIONS OF THE R142 TREAD BRAKE UNIT (TBU A+) TRAINS
The R142 fleet is currently undergoing a Tread Brake Unit (TBU A+) Modification Program. This program will upgrade the existion fleet with the latest TBU A+ Brake System, which is scheduled to be completed by june 2002. Until then, the R142 fleet if fitted with two types of Brakes Systems: the TBU A+ Brake System and the TBU A system/
The design of the two system is similar and the braking is the same. As for the operationof these trains, these systems provide identical performance. The TBU A+ brake system os desinged to operate on a higher brake cyclinder pressuresetting the that of the TBU A system. Depending on which Brake System is being operated; Traon Operators may observe different brake cylinder pressure settings. The pressure settings for full service brake and emergency brake for both systems is tabulated below.
TBU A Brkae System TBU A+ Brake System
Emergency Brake (AWO) 29psi 45psi
Full Serive Brkae (AWO) 21psi 34psi
Units wit TBU A+ Brkae Systems are compatible with units with the TBU A Brake System. However, excep for yard ,ove,emts, units with different bkeake systems must not be mixed to form an operating consist.
Reflective blue tape, under each car number of each "A" car, will be used to defferentiante train consists fidded with TBU A+ brake system. This tape will be removeed once all cars have been retrofitted
Consist 6351-8360 is the first consist fidded with the TBU A+ Brake System and will soon released to service. Starting with cars 6671 and on, all cars will be shipped fromBombardier with the TBU A+ Brake System.
Line Managers and Train Service Supervisors will monitor this directive for compliance.
Nathaniel Ford
Chief Trainsportation Officer
RTO
"
Hope this help expland every thing about the chages.
P.S. If ther are any Typos, Sorry.
Robert
I clarified that table for you. Here it is.
TBU A Brake SystemTBU A+ Brake SystemEmergency Brake (AWO)29psi45psiFull Serive Brkae (AWO)21psi34psi
Thank I thought it would have left it spaced out like the way I tpye it.
Robert
Now I have to look and ask. Used to be Brake Pipe pressure 110 PSI and FS brake pressure 80 PSI......the answers to related test question was on the board at PS 248. Bombardier and Vapor are making so many modifications that we have trouble keeping up BUT CHECK YOUR DOORS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crew switches and door tracks are being replaced and just got my own set of keys, reversers and brake handle today and did those tests. Some doors are slow, hang up or don't give proper indication. Always better to ask supervision AND write it up in your 'butcher book.' Looking up 'in the hole.' Peter
You just started school car this week it sound like, well if this is the case then good luck. I just mad my one year, It is good not seening Prob. under my name when signing in.
Robert
Bob: You're right...two weeks on utility CI...I love this job, learn fast and have my private industry skills to share. R142s have lots of problems to resolve ('Bomb' bombed at a loss for the contract) under warranty and I hope to keep this job out of provisional...cuz de Mayor engaged a hiring freeze...and Transit is the LAST to be cut. God Bless, Peter
Would anyone know what the R142A uses?
6676-80 have been modified (or have been blue taped, at least); that set was running with cars in the 6300s this morning.
Well, I could say I owe an apology because I am inexperienced BUT today I charged up 'The Bomb' and got 110 psi BP and 30 psi op. Peter
Actually, BP is more like 140 psi. I made a mistake.
I have always wondered why the R68A option order was not picked up by the original maker of the R68. I do recall some door problems early on....can any one elaborate?
Thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
I have always wondered why the R68A option order was not picked up by the original maker of the R68. I do recall some door problems early on....can any one elaborate?
Thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
The order was split between 2 manufacturers... Westinghouse-Amrail and Kawasaki. Kawasaki always does small orders so the Kawasaki part was small, 200 cars. Westinghouse-Amrail got the bigger order of 225 and gave an option order of 200 more. All were ordered.
oooooohhhhh......
Was the R-62/62A order similar to that?
No, the 62/62A order was premeditated.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R62 order for 325 cars was given to KHI whereas the R62A order which was for 825 cars was given to Bombardier. Bombardier built the R62A cars under license from KHI insofar as the car shells were concerned. The balance of the furnishings, etc they were able to do themselves based on equipment, etc the TA had used previously.
Yes, but as I understand it Westinghouse-Amrail was supposed to get the WHOLE order. Why didn't they get it?
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't know... I think that the contracts were negotiated as the R143s were. The one with a good value/price is awarded the contract.
They did, but the TA cancelled the order due to defects in the body. According to one of the books that I read, it stated that the bolts were broken and simply covered and welded up causing the Amrail 68's to be lemons. That is why the rest went to Kawasaki. After lots of TLC, both fleets are good running cars.
Actually, it seems there are two different kinds of Westinghouse-Amrail trains. Some say "Jeumont-Schneider" on their plates, while others say "Alsthom". The two kinds also have small differences in their cabs, as well as in the curvatures of the sides. Can someone explain to me why there are two different kinds of R-68 cars and what those two companies are?
- Lyle Goldman
What I know is that I learned 'subway' on the R68 Kawasaki cars and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI) bailed out and sold licenses to other manufacturers who built car bodies with systems under license. So. other R68 cars look alike but the guts are......Alsthom (it's late) and other manufacturers of the French TGV were involved. I struggle with the Bombardier/Alsthom/Vapor coalition on the R142s because their under warranty repair and the NYCMTA has just thrown us into the fire to troubleshot them. Peter
The R-68s were purchased in two phases. The first phase, known as the 'base cars' were #2500 - 2724. They were built by Westinghouse Am-Rail. The 200 cars known as the option cars 2725 - 2924 were still contracted by Westinghouse Amrail but had different sub-contractors. There are some very subtle differences. However, there are also differences cut in and cut out throughout the entire car contract. The first 12 cars have parts that the others do not. The base cars and option cars have different junction box wiring. There were 3 different types of side door hangers, Morton, Edwards, and Faverly prior to the 12 year SMS. There were even 2 different types of door panels used. The bastardization of the fleet was one of the most challanging obsticles that had to be overcome in improving the fleet performance.
Incase you forgot to check the new Fall Timetable from Amtrak, the Metroliners are disappearing fast. If you have never ridden a metroliner now is just about your last chance. There will always be time for Acela Express, but for people like me, we need to take this time to enjoy the unique flavour of MetroLiners before they disappear for good.
BTW: All NE Direct Trains have been replaced with ACELA Regionals. I am riding the new Acela Regional to Boston this Saturday via the Inland route. I'll tell you if there is any differance.
Via the Inland Route? The only difference might be cars with newer interiors and/or newer decals on the outside. Acela Regional on the Shore Line means electric all the way to Boston, which I think is now the case for all trains.
I rode the Acela Express between Washington and Newark last Friday. It's fast, smooth, and incredible. There are big bay windows because I sense the seats are closer to the bottom of the car, e.g. lower center of gravity to take the curves better. An important difference is that you have to press a button to open the door at the station. The conductor activates all exit buttons but you have to press it. At a few stations, passengers waited for the doors to open as on a regulam Amcoach.
It looks like the Acela Regional trains are refurbished metroliner cars. When Amtrak got rid of the "original" metroliners, they replaced them with regular amcoaches pulled by GG-1s, them AEM7s. The amcoaches were then upgraded from the usual 88 seat amcoach to a 60 seat coach for metroliner use.
It seems the 60 seat coaches are making their way onto the regional trains though I've never counted the number of seats. (I'm sure somebody on this list has and will let me know.)
On Saturday, I rode Acela Regional #174 from Newark to Boston. There's a significant difference between a train pulled by a motor vs. diesel. The top speed of a motor is about 130 MPH whereas the top speed for a diesel is about 105. According to an old employee timetable (it's difficult to get current stuff now because of heightened security at stations)the spped limits for motors are higher than for diesels.
Lastly, Acela Express is MORE expensive than Metroliners. One way Washington to New York on metroliner: $122. On Acela Express $144.
Michael
Michael
The end of an era in NE Corridor transit. BTW, do you know how much does it cost to ride the MetroLiner?
about 120 weekdays from DC to NYP
Mike, you're a bit late on this. The last real Metroliners were pulled from service around '87. I'm amazed they lasted that long, but they did. Budd never got the timeless looks out of those cars that they got from the M-1's though. And the finger pointing between everyone and everyone else didn't help either. Oh well.
The original cars cost about $1million. Amtrak then spent $2 million to move the guts under the cars and put them on top of the cars. The geniuses who designed them never thought that snow would get into the vents beneath the cars and clog the motors.
Michael
GG-1 hauled Metroliners were a common sight when it snowed.
Are any metroliners on Acela Regional yet? I know that was Amtrak's original plan, after they go through a refurbishing. -Nick
Hope they end up on the HBG line. That's what happened with the Budd cars for a time before they were retired. As soon as Amtrak gets its act together with the HHP-8s and AEM7s, electric service will return to the Keystone Line. I have read that the timetable for this has slowed because of the number of available electric locos has not kept up with projections. Genesis locos running under perfectly good electric catenary is just wrong!
Received today in my email. Anyone want to fight?
-Dave
On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Daniel D. Hall wrote:
> Subway Page feedback on 10/10/2001 17:12
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Comments:
>
> I don't think that it is appropriate to publish maps of the
Washington Metro, that specifically show rail transfers and
crossovers. During this time of heightened security, I am
requesting removal of the D.C. Transit System Subway Map from your
one of many maps for distribution. Thanking you in advance for your
assistance in this matter.
>
> Daniel D. Hall
> Deputy Chief
> Metro Transit Police
>
> Realname: Daniel D. Hall
> E-Mail: DHALL@WMATA.COM
> Location: Washington, D.C.
>
> Favorite Section:
> Didn't Find?:
> Heard About:
>
I'm on your side.
Peace,
ANDEE
Great. Are you a lawyer?
My dad could fight I think, e-mail me!
The same thing happened to me on my website. I took down all of my pictures from inside train towers due to NYCT's concerns.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Last weekend when I was in Boston I was yelled at for taking pictures of riverside yard from a public street and hotel parking lot. Interestingly anyone can walk right into that yard there is no fence separating it from the parking lot. I have also read reports that the MBTA is no longer giving out photography permits.
I was also yelled at for "joyriding" on the blue line and I have noticed all the railfan windows on the Red Line 01800s have been covered with ads.
I got told writing down car numbers was illegal here in DC on Monday and posted about it a few days ago.
Dear Sir:
MBTA personnel have a well-known proclivity toward yelling at photographers. It's a "union" thing nut that's a long story.
I have been a permit-carrying photographer for over 20 years and once the permit is seen it has never failed. In the past two years, it has only been needed on rapid transit lines, as Green Line people don't seem the least interested.
Concerned about the present state of paranoia, I went to 10 Park Plaza on September 28 for my 3-month renewal and had NO problem. They were friendly as hell.
Have you ever tried to obtain such a permit?
Where did you read about the permit process being revoked?
I can investigate this independently if necessary.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
"Have you ever tried to obtain such a permit?"
Yes I get permits when I plan on doing extensive photography in the system. I last permit expired in June.
"Where did you read about the permit process being revoked?"
I read it via E-Mail I have no idea whether or not it is valid. On my next Trip to Boston 10/19 I will attempt to get a permit.
Well, then you might want to advise how it goes, but to my knowledge there is certainly no legally binding prohibition on photography, as long as you follow the rules.
As for the car cards on the Red Line, a lot of operators feel uncomfortable to have soemone eyeballing them. Again, there is no standard order about covering up the "railfan window." If anything this practice is frowned on by soem in Senior Management.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
We must all think and act responsibly, if a request is make to limit for a time, access to information that is availible elsewere, OK, for now.
I would however encourage anyone who doesn't now belong to the N.R.A. to seek information and guidelines for such membership. It is currently a RIGHT of AMERICANS under the US constitution. If you can, exercise this right before this administration or any other takes it away from you. I support this administration and the current policies in this time we find ourselves in.
I look to our government for the protection from enemies without and within, but I feel better just the same by being able to own long guns (rifles and shotguns) in New York State.
The have been and still are too many windows of opportunity for those who would do harm to us out of hate or envy.
CYA
avid
Harry,
I haven't heard from NYCT over anything, in fact as you know, they even sent me photos of the disaster. Was this a formal request to remove the items made to you? How was it made?
-dave
It was sent as an e-mail. It was from one of the ACTO's (second to the chief of transportation) who knew me from the summer. He didn't threaten anything but said he felt it was to sensitive. I also got a ton of pictures from them of the disaster- 300 megs of JPG's worth and they had no problem with me displaying them (as I have)
-Harry
High Street: Just downloaded that new site. Looks good. Thanks. Variety is the spice of life, they say. Good to know I have another place to view our great subsway system.
The same thing happened to me on my website. I took down all of my pictures from inside train towers due to NYCT's concerns.
I could see a possible problem with any would be Taliban terrorists seeing pictures of the NYCT's train towers. They'd see that these towers used a technology that they could understand. There's no telling what mischief they could plan, once they realised this secret.
You mean you took down perfectly good images that you have every right to display just because of some whiny crybaby who doesn't like them and happens to work for the NYCT? Put them back up. All of us here want to see them, and some of us haven't seen them yet. Nothing bad should happen to you if you put them back up.
- Lyle Goldman
He has many inside photos. If he wants to get more he should do what they ask.
Can you mail me a copy? I'll put it in my site. You can link to me. BTW the ALCU will probably defend you.
Google.com may still have a cache on thier site.
it is right here
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:vd-r8npQDuQ:www.nycsubway.org/washdc/wash-dc-track.gif
But it's so small!
- Lyle Goldman
University and large public libraries once contained the most important secrets of assembling a thermonuclear weapon sans the exact amount of fissionable material. US military dropped the algorithm that made GPS innacurate by 300'. Deleting a map does nothing when the foreign terrorist 'brain trust' spent years honing skills and making plans. A 'real subway' (like ours) IS the safest place to be. Peter
One of the reasons I heard selective access was discontinued was that you could get accurate to within 30' using 2 GPS's and some easy reasoning.
Well, soem good points are being made in this string. Personally, I think requests by Transit Offcials to remove system maps is silly- these offcials give away this information every day anyway.
Certainly, we shouldn't give up our liberties- that's what bib laden & Company want. However, maybe in the current situation, putting up pictures of interlockings and such isn't a good idea at the time. While their technology is ancient, why show some Kamikaze T/O just how to wrong-rail a train during rush-hour? It's just soemthing that should be avoided, in all of our interests.
Secondly, while it's true that the ACLU would defend you, (probably sucessfully). However, I get the feeling that a lot of the material posted on all these sites comes from unoffcial cooperation from all levels of the NYCTA. You can be sure that such cooperation would cease if anybody got nasty with the TA, and we'd have only "bootleg" stuff to look at, and/or the TA might harrass railfans in other waysmight sue for infringements of its copyrights (for example, displaying images of its logos, signage, etc.), or it could do nasty stuff to the employees who post here.
I work for a State agency, and am strictly prohibited from providing any information about it to the public. The TA could do the same thing to its people.
No, but i can offer moral support, letter writing and the like.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mr. Hall:
I have just read your E-mail concerning your request to remove WMATA's map from WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG.
The map of WMATA's Metro is in the public domain, as such, it is free to be distributed so long as credit is given to the owner. This map is not only available on this web site, but in public libraries, internet (your own web site) and rail stations along the N.E. corridor.
If your map displayed sensitive information of a secure nature, such as inside of control towers, or change booths, security stations, then of course such pictures/maps would be removed, however, this is a MAP. Do you think that a map of Interstate 95 should not be displayed here, for example, since it shows connections to bridges and tunnels in New York City? Let's be intelligent.
If you still believe in your infinite wisdom that this map, available to anyone, should not be displayed here or for that matter anywhere, then I would be happy to refer your request to my colleagues at the ACLU for a review of your demand.
> Subway Page feedback on 10/10/2001 17:12
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Comments:
>
> I don't think that it is appropriate to publish maps of the
Washington Metro, that specifically show rail transfers and
crossovers. During this time of heightened security, I am
requesting removal of the D.C. Transit System Subway Map from your
one of many maps for distribution. Thanking you in advance for your
assistance in this matter.
>
> Daniel D. Hall
> Deputy Chief
> Metro Transit Police
>
> Realname: Daniel D. Hall
> E-Mail: DHALL@WMATA.COM
> Location: Washington, D.C.
>
> Favorite Section:
> Didn't Find?:
> Heard About:
Send it to the fool
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just checked the site and the only map there is Michael Adler's route map, which I'm sure is not much different than any map posted in any Washington Metro station or train. What could be gained by not having it posted here?
Exactly.
There isn't anything on this map that isn't readily available through hundreds of sources. Perhaps the security people are getting a little over stressed. BTW, do you know if the message was legit?
Bill
The Track Map is down, I think.
I took it down already while I sort out my alternatives. At minimum I emailed back asing for the request "in writing" on paper. I told him if I didn't receive it on paper by 11/3 the map would return.
Why so long a wait? Why not ask for the paper or sone other official contact before removing it?
See http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=274882
Oh! Silly me. I didn't scroll down. Could you still e-mail me an updated version. At least for my records.
BTW, have a nice trip.
Dave,this is silly.Shows you what kind of world we live in now. Here it is,we received the worst of the Sept 11 melle and he's crying'' don't put our subway map on line.... or...''. OUR SYSTEM serves more people than any other in the world,our maps are Everywhere,and we have a much larger metropolitan area with 3 times as many people.In other words,we have much more to lose,if worst came to worst.Some people just don't get it. Next thing you know,walking across the street will be a crime only on Tuesday's and every other Thursday of the following month. Gezz.....
I've never heard the name David D. Hall in the news but I will assume its genuine.
What will a terrorist want with a track map? The WMATA request is also unconstitutional, IMO.
"The WMATA request is also unconstitutional, IMO."
In peace time yes in time of war the government can suppress that right to distribute information that can be helpful to the enemy.
Untill Dave sees a bonafide court order he should just give them the finger.
I agree.
They say we're suppose to live our lives nice and normally - and to change routines into some paranoid mindset pretty much hands the terrorists the victory.
If they want that info bad enough, they'll find it or already have it.
All this talk about "security" makes me laugh. Anybody want to guess what building complex was noted for having the most rigid security in New York, with strictly enforced pass systems for visitors, employee ID cards, and concrete barriers?
Ouch. Good point.
Let me guess, would that be the Airlines?
avid
FWIW, I'd just point out that if they were going to collect track maps, it's pretty safe to assume that they already have. The information has been available for a long time and copies are abroad out of the control of domestic security agencies. Horses, barn ...
It wasn't a command, it was a request. I think Dave's response was correct under the circumstances. It makes no sense to give a possible official a hard time when he is trying to head off a potential gift to a group that would use it to do harm to us again.
Would any one here NOT help an emergency service worker in aiding an injured civilian escape a disaster area? Think about it, maybe in Daves compliance, a hatemongers work is slowed or stopped.
avid
And Dave is also trying to stay in the GOOD WILL of the WMTA (and by extension, NYCTA) offcials. Also very important.
hmm
http://www.WMATA.COM/about/mtpd.htm
says the Deputy Chief is Polly L. Hanson
I sent the guy an e-mail in an effort to accertain if it was a real person or not. I asked him to verify his comments pending my complaint to the ALCU. Depending on how things go down I might send e-mails to the ALCU and various newspapers.
This is such bullshit. A DC Metro Cop dosen't even have jurisdiction in New York.
Good for you. But for the record, it's the ACLU, American Civil Liberties Union.
Fark!
Is this a "JIHAD" on rail-fanning? It's a known fact that terrorists use sneaky methods such as a miniature camera through a hole in their pocket to obtain photos of potential targets -- not a big Nikon or video camera hanging around their neck while standing on a platform in full view of everyone! Where's the ACLU when you need them?
Even before Sept. 11, I was threatened with arrest by a CTA station agent for taking photos on the Western Station on the O'Hare Blue Line. I made a formal complaint to CTA. Their response was that they had no problem with my taking photos, and even offered to have me return to the site, which I declined (I had taken my pictures already). But they did also say that they were more concerned with commercial photography.
Also, a CTA supervisor told me he felt that photographs might bring "adverse criticism of the CTA." (Isn't that an infringement of freedom of the press?)
Now, since 9/11, we can expect this type of harassment to increase, under the guise of "homeland security," to censor rail fan activities.
They have a right to be paid if it's used for commercial purposes.
-Hank
Even before Sept. 11, I was threatened with arrest by a CTA station agent for taking photos on the Western Station on the O'Hare Blue Line. I made a formal complaint to CTA. Their response was that they had no problem with my taking photos, and even offered to have me return to the site, which I declined ...
This really isn't a change in their policy. I visited the CTA Public Affairs Office before I began taking video when I visited in 1997 and they were OK with it. When challenged by a dispatcher about it, I simply asked him to call his supervisor who didn't have a problem with it as long as I didn't impede the flow of passenger traffic.
--Mark
I too sent WMATA an e-mail. I asked them if they plan on stopping people from looking out the windows of railcars since this is how we got the map.I asked for for the law they used to ask for the removal of the map.
They don't need a law to ask, only to make a criminal complaint and obtain an arrest warrant when you don't comply.
Especially if you are in Northern Virginia, where the Commonwealth laws have not been updated in 60 years
Who is the ALCU? I can't figure you'd typo 10 times.
-Hank
ACLU, that was a typot.
If he's referring to a track map, I could kinda-sorta think the request isn't entirely unreasonable (particularly if it were worded more politely). However, if he wants the route map pulled, then he needs to reboot his KlewServer™. If that's his gripe, tell him that he'll also need to immediately require the recall of every phone directory and hotel guest guide in and around the DC area, or that may exist in public libraries...at the very least send Men in Black around to rip those pages out of the books. And, while they're at it, take the map off their own website.
I guess since all the action is overseas this week, the bureaucrats here have to come up with something to demonstrate they're hard at work protecting us.
There's nothing taking a track map down will do to stop a fanatic. While I can see the reason behind the request (This was a legitimate request I hope) I think that goes a bit far. If somebody really wants it, they'll find it no matter what.
In the name of "security" we may as well shut down the Internet completely, and while we're at it, close all libraries. They contain all kinds of information that might compromise national security. It starts with confiscating nail clippers at airport security checkpoints and ends where?
In the name of "security" we may as well shut down the Internet completely, and while we're at it, close all libraries. They contain all kinds of information that might compromise national security. It starts with confiscating nail clippers at airport security checkpoints and ends where?
You should check out the government documents section of Wesleyan's library. They have the operating and maintainence manual for a B-1 bomber amoung many many other things. And that's just in the DoD section. Most big libraries around the country have the same exact thing. If you want to learn how to be a terrorist just read the government's Field Manual on low intensity conflict.
That's ok. While I was looking for the cached image of the track map, I found an image of a GE Rapid Transit control panel. Recall our terrorist pals trained on a blow-up poster of a 757 cockpit? (no pun intended)
-Hank
no no no - the key thing to do here is to have everyone get an internal US passport. so if you don't have the right papers, you can't walk down the street... we'll have military checkpoints on every corner, with troops who are not trained to understand civil rights,a nd will shoot anyone even looking mildly susicious. Let's get troops at the turnstyles to every station, examining your bags. have to line up for 3 hours just to get on the train? well, too bad. it's all about security, even if it turns this country intosomething that resembles a certain totalitarian nation in europe during world war 2...
Can you smell the sarcasm cooking?
That almost sounds like my style of sarcasam! I appreciate the humour.
Now ven, ver ar your dokuments?
-Robert King
Staten Island is almost like the old East Germany NOW, with the checkpoints at the bridges (which seem to have evaporated this morning). It's why I finally shaved, since I looked like this:
-Hank
PS-That's my official NYPD photo for my press credential. Whenever I cross a police line, the cop sees that...
Um, you look like a square with a little red "X" in it? :)
--Mark
"Mark S. Feinman" wrote:
Um, you look like a square with a little red "X" in it? :)
I right-clicked on the "X" and selected Properties. It's located on a Geocities webpage. Unfortunatley he won't be able to show the picture here. Here is something I posted in another forum that also happens to explain Hank's missing mugshot:
The problem is Geocities. Or to be more specific, free website providers in general. These providers have, for the most part stopped allowing the practice of linking to files on their servers from offsite. And the ones that still do, wherever they are, probably won't for much longer.
Naturally, a lot of folks using these services aren't aware of this change in policy, since it would be a negative thing to most of them, so the free webhosts aren't about to go around advertising such a policy change as if it were a new feature:
Imagine...
"New Feature: We've Stopped Letting You Link To Files on Your GeoCities Site From Other Websites!"
Not the most postitive-sounding thing to tell your customers, is it?
The best anyone with pix to post (and a Geocities or similar free site to hold them) can do is to post a link to a page (meaning something ending with ".htm" or ".html") with the picture (or pictures) on it. That will still work. Sure, it means having to actually create a page to put the picture on, instead of just uploading it and pasting it's address here, but if you want to show your fellow forum-ites the photos, it'll have to be done. It's less complicated than hunting down a free webhost who'll still allow you to embed files on their servers into someone else's webpage.
Look at it this way, since you only wanted to show the picture, you won't need to create an entire website for them. Just a series of disconnected pages with a picture on them (or more than one if they're small enough) will do.
However, simply embedding a picture into a forum message, while it looks nicer, won't work anymore.
What you and thousands of others across the 'Net were trying to get to work was costing those companies loads of money for data transfer (bandwidth) without the oppurtunity to display advertisements to pay for the service. The free ride is pretty much over, so far as embedding images from your site into offsite bulliten boards.
---PCJ, delurking
The problem is the commercial free website providers. There are still a few providers who are simply random guys with excess disk space and bandwidth who have been generous enough to offer it to the Internet community. As long as you don't overstay your welcome, there's no reason they'd mind images linked elsewhere. The downstay is that even if you play by the rules, if others don't, the plug will be pulled abruptly, as I learned the hard way in January. (But I just noticed that that provider is back up, albeit for a $5 monthly fee. Wise move.)
I was on printroom.com the other day (A digital photo printing service) and apparently they allow offsite linking. Check them out. (I don't work for them or anything. Just a customer)
Well, the pic isn't on any of my sites. Not much we can do since a biweekly runs on a shoestring budget.
-Hank
>>> I right-clicked on the "X" and selected Properties. It's located on a Geocities webpage. Unfortunatley he won't be able to show the picture here. <<<
Now explain, if you can, why it came through correctly to my browser.
Tom
What browser are you using?
Did you visit any Geocities sites with that browser window before coming here?
-Hank
>>> What browser are you using? <<<
I am using Netscape 4.76, but I also use Guidescope, which, if I am not mistaken, strips the information regarding where the reference is from when following a link to a new site. Here is their URL: http://www.guidescope.com/home/
Tom
I've looked better :) If you cut and paste the URL, it should be ok...http://geocities.com/theblackreign/img52.gif If you go, then come back, the image appears inline.
-Hank
hank could you re-post the photo?
I'll put on my gray uniform, shoulder my shootin' iron, and march forth in the name of Jeff Davis and the Confederacy :-)
Seriously, that numbskull needs to be reminded of Benjamin Franklin's oft-repeated statement: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." This is America, not Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. Tell him to stuff it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can now find the map back online at http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/dcmetromap.html
Elapsed time 1 hour and 26 minutes. Long live democracy. Long live free speech.
how did you get it so fast?
I had it on a zip disk. Before I didn't know which one it was or even if I had it.
And that map is out of date. I think any terrorist would want an up to date map.
Does anyone have an up-to-date copy?
That is gone too far. We have a right to view subway maps. I really don't think the WMATA could do anything to your site. It is unconstitutional. If we become afraid of anything, and start banning things like crazy than the terrorists win. Pilots need a secure door and there needs to be air marshalls. We need tight security at public places where packages need to be scrutinized. But this is too far. Just like the record companies, they trying to stop mp3's. Heck they don't even want radio stations streaming on the internet. Just ignore the email message. He can't stop you.
That's nice. IIRC, maps like that are public knowlage, and probbably readilly available from a library or government institution.
Let 'em sue then take it to the media with your lawyer. Nothing like seeing a beuraucrat get caught with his pants down.,
Are you willing to pay dave's legal fees?
i might not be able to cover the whole thing, but i'd certainly put money into it. i suspects otehrs would as well.
what's next? the photos?
I can GUARUNTEE that there will be multiple lawyers willing to take the case pro-bono.
-Hank
You can call his bluff and say no but you will reconsider IFF they remove the same information from their site.
hehe!
you can also join the NRA... =)
but thats a whole other thing!
They don't have track maps at wmata.com.
They mentioned stations and transfer points all of which is on the maps on their site.
I bet you a big fat man you cannot take any more pictures of the washington metro subway system & dont even think of
shooting a video! Now on greyhound you have to show PICTURE I.D. to ride on the "dog" & even "amtrak" ...too ???
what is next ? You hav to show papers as well ??--------like back in world war 2 i saw on many movies ??
I have taken photos on the Metro since 9/11. Only one problem, see my post from this Monday.
sir: would you please bring me up to speed as to what happened to you ??...........thanks you ........
ID has always been required on Amtrak; it's just that no one ever bothered. They're simply enforcing a previously-written rule.
-Hank
I bet you a big fat man you cannot take any more pictures of the washington metro subway system & dont even think of
shooting a video! Now on greyhound you have to show PICTURE I.D. to ride on the "dog" & even "amtrak" ...too ???
what is next ? You have to show papers as well ??--------like back in world war 2 i saw on many movies ??
We know how you feel. You just said that 26 seconds ago!
- Lyle Goldman
" we know how you feel . you said that 26 seconds ago ?"
the post was last wednesday...............................................lol!!
Still, why do you have to post the exact same message two or three times in a row?
the subject was posted a few times however what i wanted to talk about is the hell that you have to go thru to rid a train or a bus !!
& having to show 3 piecs of id , then papers ???................. lol!!
Love it salaamallah. God is good, God is Great. But the Lord doesn't bend the rules ever for me to get through Official checkpoints. So licensed for two decades to carry a gun, my steel towed boots Always set off alarms. TA gave me 600 volt proofed shoes.
It's your turn now to be searched and bent.
but like on greyhound & amtrak ?? I can see on commercial aircraft etc.. but on the dog? ( greyhound ) ??
If a terrorist blows up the Bus they want to know the names of everyone who was killed.
( sigh )
hire a good lawyer & put up the good fight !! .......maybe then they will owe you some money mr. pirmann!!
go get em tiger "
Dumb over reaction cop. If somebody really wanted to do something, he ALREADY has a copy of the track map.
Wait a moment "DC Transit System"? That is not the offical name. I always known it as MetroRail.
Where do u see DC Transit System?
In the orginial e-mail from the "Metro Police".
I know. This cop doesn't seem to grasp the concept that serious criminals put a lot of planning into their crimes long in advance of actually committing them.
-Robert King
We are talking about a subway system that sets up undercover sting operations to find 12-year-olds eating French fries.
On that subject, today being a Wednesday, the TTC had their usual fundraiser for the United Way going where they get together with Pizza Pizza and sell slices of pizza in most of the subway stations for $1/slice with all proceeds going to the United Way and make announcements over the subway system wide P. A. announcing it.
I was thinking as I was eating some pepperoin that this sort of all round good thing simply wouldn't be allowed to take place in Washington, given what happened to the girl with the fries. WMTA needs to lighten up a bit.
-Robert King
If it is a real letter and not some BS post from someone trying to get their jollies, it really is way over the top as far as paranoia goes. If Dave can check his log of ISP addresses of people who have visted the site and match up the visitors to the time the e-mail was sent, he might be able to see if any Washington Metro-related domain was viewing www.nycsubway.org at any time recently before the message was sent.
As far as the message itself, with two-track lins everywhere, checking the switching locations on WMATA requires little more than a DC Metrocard and a window seat on the left side of the train for one trip and a seat on the right side of the train for the other to identify the crossovers and (relatively few) bellmouth connections within the system. New York, with it's variety of two-track, three-track and four-track lines is far more complicated (but not impossible)to chart.
In another post I wrote about how railfan windows on the MBTA are being covered up.
I just looked at the DC Metro track map dated 1997 on another web site. Doesn't this represent information available to any reasonably observant WMATA rider? I suppose if this map gets into the wrong hands, maybe it will inspire Kabul to build a subway system.
I guess DC had better take out system maps from stations and trains. They dont want terrorists to find out how to get from one point to the next with a map, DC forgets that WTC was planned for years. I am sure if the DC Subway is a targert, that they already have atrack map. Maybe one of them is a cartogapher (map maker). I guess any map makers should plan on leaving DC immediately--maybe they plan on arresting people for their job.
seriously-- this is ridiculous but Dave did the right thing.
I don't have a strong opinion either way on the subject, but lean toward taking down the detailed track maps.
David, in deciding what you want to do make sure you consider that the survey you've taken here has an inherent bias in that we're all railfans and like track maps.
Imagine a website called USAairplane.com devoted to plane fans. If they had on their site gate configuration, runway and taxiway layouts for the 20 largest US Airports, how many of us would want the site to take down that info -- at least temporarily?
CG
Imagine a website called USAairplane.com devoted to plane fans. If they had on their site gate configuration, runway and taxiway layouts for the 20 largest US Airports, how many of us would want the site to take down that info -- at least temporarily?
Actually, there is a site with runway and taxiway layouts for most major airports. Gate configurations can be obtained from most any airport's own site.
Possession of information of this sort isn't going to make a whit of difference as far as terrorism is concerned. Even if the information somehow were useful, the terrorists probably would try to ascertain it themselves rather than trust some web site.
> Imagine a website called USAairplane.com devoted to plane fans.
> If they had on their site gate configuration, runway and taxiway
> layouts for the 20 largest US Airports,
You can buy this information in bookstores. Every private pilot has a copy of it showing runways, taxiways, approach paths, tower radio, etc. Can't quote a cite/site but I've seen it online as well. At the very least, mapquest.com aerial photos will show this stuff to you as well.
Don't forget USGS maps. They show darn near everything.
And I don't think they've asked Delorme to stop publishing their Atlas & Gazeteers.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Well whenever the new atlas versions come out they will be minus the World Trade Center and other things. When I was young map-drawing was a pretty good hobby of mine, but with these digital maps I guess they don't have people draw maps anymore. My personal opinion is I don't like the digital maps but prefer the hand drawn ones. Does MTA use computers or people to draw their maps?
people use computer software to manipulate the maps
Mapping is done with GIS (Geographic information system) nowadays. GIS uses GPS to create maps. ArcView is a popular software package that is used. I'm taking a Surveying class right now where we are going to get into GIS next week until the end of the semester, so I'm not familiar with it yet.
There was an article in the Times earlier in the week--I believe linked or at least quoted--that it is done by computer. Hagstrom switched only within the last few years.
Yeah, computer drawn maps look like shit. Everything is all angular and railroad information really gets the shaft.
To all subtalkers. Ask WMATA per public law 95-15, Freedom of Information Act for the law they used to ask the map be removed from the site. I did and am awaiting their response.
There was a series of posts on Airliners.net (which is basically nycsubway.org for plane geeks) from almost a year ago theorizing on a 707 hitting the tower. I bet that guy has had a lot of questions asked of him lately. Remember, nothing on the net EVER dies, and try not to use 'today, tomorrow, yesterday, this week, last week, last year, next year' or any other present-tense as such. Always use an actual date. Especially if your site or message may appear without an original date. This is something I mentioned to someone who runs a for-profit site.
-Hank
the thread is right here
http://www.Airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/336291/
the thread is right here
http://www.Airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/336291
One of the posters on that thread really hit the mark ...
If the building managed to fall, there might be 5 or 6 thousand dead
And the poster did get a call from the FBI. If anyone tries anything from city hall IRT think of how many people they would have to call.
Perhaps I'm being a little old fashioned, but I personally would want to receive something more substantial than a submitted online feedback form before pulling down the track maps; I'd email the police officer provide them with my address and politely ask that they mail me an official letter making the request on police department letterhead before taking any action in terms of removing items from websites.
-Robert King
Yeah, Dave should at least give us some warning before talking it down so we can make backup hard copies.
I'm way ahead of you...
I did in fact write back exactly as you suggested. I gave him until 11/3 to have a request in writing on letterhead sent registered mail to my house.
However since I will be out of the country for 2.5 weeks beginning next week I took it down just as a precaution to prevent any action being taken by any overzealous law enforcement between now and then.
-Dave
I hope that all goes well on your trip.
-Hank
Last time I looked, paranoia was a serious form of mental illness. I guess it's pretty widespread these days.
I wouldn't even bother with a reply.
He already took the map down.
I'd like to respond but everytime the conservative viewpoint gets promoted here, the thread disappears.
Is it the content or the way in which the conted is presented that is causing the thread to disappear?
-Robert King
"Is it the content or the way in which the conted is presented that is causing the thread to disappear? "
Content. Anything that portrays Islam in a bad light is likely to be removed, no matter how factual, or unemotional the post is. It's a major pillar of liberal belief that only the Judeo-Christian religions are open to critisicm. Any critisicm directed towards minority religions is intolerable from the liberal perspective. Such critisicm elicits emotional cries of "racist", "bigot" etc.
Uh, oh. While I'm lying awake tonight unable to sleep, there will be a knock at the door at 3:00 am (oh, wait, this is Los Angeles, they'll knock the door down and storm in!) They have come from my contraband, "Tracks of the New York City Subway", declared subversive by the powers that be. What else? Oh, yes, a Chicago Surface Lines track map from 50 plus years ago. I'll be declared an Enemy of the People.
I was just thinking about Pete's book myself!
Geez.
--Mark
Fahrenheight 451 anybody?
-Hank
coming to a neighborhood near you !!............not lol ,,,,,,,,,,
Don't show your age! "Mommy, mommy look, here comes a fire engine. There's going to be a fire."
I stand behind MY president today: "you can pry my gun out of my cold, dead hands".....Charleton Heston
What are you saying, that being a train buff and doing stuff like recording train car #'s is somehow more legitimate than fire engines?
The words come from the motion picture 'Fahrenheit 451.' The child sees the fire engine and instictively knows that it is time for the burning of the books........an elderly librarian meets an untimely but happy death in a home full of literature. It is like the chant, "On the juice," and I instictively know that power is about to be applied to the carbody. I am only becoming a train buff now and do recognise that burning of literature today would be the final and most complete end of our civil liberties. Peter
I read the book, not the movie...
It's also somewhat a pop-culture thing, because of the constant attempts by idiots to restrict access to books like Huckleberry Finn
-Hank
"Fahrenheight 451 anybody?"
What??
Fahrenheit 451 is a classic Ray Bradbury novel about censorship... thought-provoking.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fahrenheit 451 is a classic Ray Bradbury novel about censorship... thought-provoking.
The title, by the way, refers to the temperature at which paper burns.
The movie also has a neat overhead monorail train scene, if I remember correctly.
-Robert King
I wonder if the main character, Guy Montag, was named after the Montague tunnel :-)
It does but in the book itself, its a subway. IMO, the monorail was pretty crappy.
It does along with images of a society that only has 'TVs.' Peter
"...honey can we have a screen on the fourth wall of the living room?..."
when several of us went to see the flick, we then spent the next hour in a coffee shoppe debating which books to memorize so as a WAY OT any takers? (I chose Thucydides)
Aeschylus, "The Oresteia," but Thucydides is damn good too.
Seth
it should be noted somewhere in here that email addresses can be forged, and IP numbers spoofed. these are basic hacker tricks. Someone suggested emailing them back and asking for a sogned certified letter with DCPD letterhead and the such, and i don't think that's an unreasonable request at the least. besides, it'll be something to scan and put in the place of the map for everyone to download! heheeh!
Obviously, I'm no lawyer. However, it would seem to me that this gentleman (if legitimate) has overstepped his jurisdiction. If the DC Metro security is so lax and if the system is so vulnerable, perhaps your website is not the DC Metro's biggest problem.
I would suggest that the message be fowarded to the head of the DC Metro system and ask if censorship of railfan websites is the the prime focus of the system's security efforts. I'd be interested in hearing their answer. If you are too busy - I'd be happy to lend a hand to this one.
I just sent them a request, under public law 95-15, The Freedom of Information Act for the law they used to make this request. I also used the law to ask if they planned on covering all windows of their subway cars and/or arrest customers for looking out of the windows or their cars or drawing what they see from these windows.
I pity WMATA- I expect many subtalkers will do likewise.
95-15 was used by the NY Times to obtain ther Pentagon Papers.
Good luck, but I don't think the FOIA covers your request. It's designed to allow access to records already in existence and in the possession of the federal govt. Assuming that WMATA is considered a federal agency for purposes of FOIA, FOIA doesn't require the govt to answer your questions, only to supply documents.
There is FOIA and FOIL one federal and one state freedom of information laws.
Right. But this request was to the WMATA, which runs the DC Metro. FOIL is a New York State statute. While the DC Metro may or may not be subject to FOIA, FOIL is completely besides the point in this particular instance. It's where the agency is located; not where the requester resides.
As DC I believe is a federal district, federal laws would apply there.
-Hank
"95-15 was used by the NY Times to obtain ther Pentagon Papers."
Daniel Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon Papers to the Times and Washington Post.
Seth
Yes, but 95-15 helped to confirm them. The legacy of the Nixon administration...
-Hank
IIRC, it didn't help the government's position that the material had already spread to other newspapers and was well on its way to being "out of the bag."
"Sure, I'll take down the Metro map, just as soon as you finish collecting all the DC Metro maps that have ever been distributed or downloaded, since the opening of the Metro in 1976."
What the hell was he thinking?!?
By the way, the request was specifically about the track map ("specifically shows rail transfers and crossovers", I suppose that's cop language for tracks and switches) and the email did in fact originate from an IP address belonging to WMATA (chance of spoofing aside).
Well, that eliminates the "random jerk with a browser" theory. But my other point stands -- WMATA's track layouts, line splits, merges and crossovers are simple enough for an amateur with a window seat on a rail car to chart by just making one round trip on each line.
Unless the Metro police want to cover up all the side windows on their railcars, they really have more to worry about from someone in the D.C. area riding the trains than someone half a world away clicking onto your website.
Dont give them any ideas! I guess they will do that or start arresting people for looking out of the windows.
Right... like THEIR system is worth crying over.
I bet you a big fat man you cannot take any more pictures of the washington metro subway system & dont even think of
shooting a video! Now on greyhound you have to show PICTURE I.D. to ride on the "dog" & even "amtrak" ...too ???
what is next ? You have to show papers as well ??--------like back in world war 2 i saw on many movies ??
Well then how come the news people can shoot all the video they want and show it to the whole world...CNN has world wide coverage and don't think some little sneaky dosen't have cable in some little cave and watching all this with bated breath....hell he could tune in to the wings channel and see the top secret chopper the comanchie in all it's splendor..and we americans cant even get a glimps of the thing without being arrested,the news has more info to give to everyone....
We've ALREADY lost a lot of our freedom. If my dad weren't retired from his pharmaceutical sales rep job, he'd be screwed, because he used to have to drive from Queens into Manhattan every day. With the ban on single-occupant vehicles in place, he'd have to lug his samples on the subway. (During the fuel shortages of the seventies, he had a special permit that allowed him to get gas on a date that did not match his plate number- the old 'odd-even' rule.)
The checking of IDs at bridge tolls has caused a perpetual standstill of traffic on the Whitestone Expressway from the Shea Stadium interchange all the way over the Whitestone Bridge to the Bronx plaza- a good four miles or so. This in turn has messed up service on the Q44 and QBX1, both of which cross the Bridge. Some drivers have reported what used to take ten minutes can now take up to two and a half hours. I have to assume similar conditions exist on other toll crossings in the area as well.
We had planned a weekend foll foliage day trip to the Danbury rail museum, Bear Mountain and West Point, but there's no way I'm wasting half the day waiting to cross a bridge.
Several co-workers who bus into PA from Jersey have also reported lengthy delays through the tunnel and officers from various jurisdictions (NYPD, PA, NJ state police) boarding buses to check IDs. I have to question whether that's even LEGAL- far as I know, there's no law in this country requiring any citizen to carry identification. This point was raised several years ago when subway riders were being asked by police at random to produce ID, and being ticketed if they couldn't.
Of course, if terrorists get wind of these practices, they'll just use the trains instead. Authorities concede there's no way to check the ID of everyone boarding a subway or commuter train. Consideration of such was floated after Colin Ferguson, but defeated as unworkable.
Yesterday my management announced food deliverypeople are no longer allowed up to offices. If you order in, you have to go down to the lobby to get it (opportunity to disappear from ones desk for long periods of time), or the deliveryperson has to have the guard call upstairs for the person to come down and get it- and wait. This is a six-story building with one working elevator. You think the average worker who relies on multiple deliveries and the resultant tips is going to stand for THAT?!
In all these respects, we already HAVE lost our freedom.
Wartime or any type of national trauma, be they natural disasters or political assassinations always brings about a temporary erosion of personal freedoms. Yet with time the difficulties you and Dave have encountered will pass. They always do, and life will pretty much return to normal or at least I hope so.
Eric Dale Smith
Yet with time the difficulties you and Dave have encountered will pass. They always do, and life will pretty much return to normal or at least I hope so.
What if they don't? What of this is just the thin end of the wedge?
That matches our new security but they still allow food delivery. We all have to show ID to get into the building. The delievery personal DO NOT HAVE ID (most undocumented aliens). They have to sign the book with their name and the name of the resturant they are from.
It is a joke how our saftey officers try to explain what they have to do and they do not speak any english. The Sgt. in charge of the detail here is upset that they have to treat these guys like this, trying to make a buck from tips is hard. I feel they should ban all food delivery into the building.
Shouldn't a vehicle that's used for commercial purposes carry commercial plates? Vehicles with commercial plates are allowed across the bridges. (This is similar in principle to your father's gas permit.)
How often are ID's checked at bridges? I crossed the GWB (PIP approach) Monday afternoon and, as usual, I had my choice of toll booth -- none of the E-ZPass booths had lines. As a Manhattan resident, I rarely have any use for the MTA crossings and I seldom travel during peak periods (especially in the peak direction), and that may color my experiences.
I also don't see how it could be legal to check ID's of bus passengers. Until he obtained his reduced-fare MetroCard, my father's only photo ID was his U.S. passport, which he only carried when traveling internationally (or, more recently, by air even domestically, but that was only after being nearly denied access to a flight at Newark shortly after the change in policy).
the ID case at the US Supreme Ct. some twenty years back said NO, US Citizens are not required to carry or produce ID simply because the cops ask without cause. A pool on how long til this gets changed may be in order. Most of us are perfectly willing to cooperate to get through this mess, BUT if we end up in 1984 we have lost anyway. The idea of ID to use 'mass transit' is ludicrous AND happily impossible to implement.
While I understand our host's response, the DC guy is out of line. He has no legal authority on the Internet IMHO. The worst of it is that this is all barn door after the stampede. If the lame guy from DC thinks Al Quaeda is only now doing research, he should be walking a beat. I am reminded of the RR cop at Potomac Yard in the sixties who said I might be a spy--a sixteen year old train fan taking pictures in broad daylight.
"We've ALREADY lost a lot of our freedom."
Remember that conveniences and freedom are not the same, no matter how much we feel they are because we've become used to them.
"If my dad weren't retired from his pharmaceutical sales rep job, he'd be screwed, because he used to have to drive from Queens into Manhattan every day. With the ban on single-occupant vehicles in place, he'd have to lug his samples on the subway."
There's no legal right of any kind to go wherever you want in a single-occupancy vehicle. The U.S. or New York constitutions don't include a right to take an (inefficient, gasoline-wasting and land-gobbling) drive alone in a motorcar. Is there a right to travel? Yes, the right of free movement is an essential part of liberty. Is it an absolute right, without reasonable exceptions, to travel by the most resource-intensive manner possible? No!
"Yesterday my management announced food deliverypeople are no longer allowed up to offices. If you order in, you have to go down to the lobby to get it (opportunity to disappear from ones desk for long periods of time), or the deliveryperson has to have the guard call upstairs for the person to come down and get it- and wait. This is a six-story building with one working elevator. You think the average worker who relies on multiple deliveries and the resultant tips is going to stand for THAT?!"
Again, I don't think the Founding Fathers included an inalienable right to have hot food delivered to your desk.
Remember that the Franklin quote about trading liberty for safety is about giving up ESSENTIAL LIBERTIES, not minor modern conveniences. The WMATA track map issue arguably rises to the level of essential liberties (although the last time I looked, not every REQUEST by a government official, even if within the scope of his duties, is legally or morally equivalent to armed police knocking on your door in the middle of the night). ID checks may also raise issues of essential liberty (although, again, ASKING and COMMANDING aren't the same thing). The SOV ban and building security keeping out food delivery men clearly don't rise to that level.
The Citicorp mall at 53rd and Lex is only for employees. I had to get my Cinnabon at the window. Chinatown isn't the same, I can't even enjoy it anymore with all the police and soldiers around, but worse is that acrid smell of burning steel which drowns out the smell of Chinese food. And today, at the usual bustling hours of midday it was dead. Stores there are suffering, many have made drastic markdowns in merchandise. Would you believe Video CD movies for $4, well believe it. In Grand Central the wall of the missing stands, with faces of all ethnicities. People stop and stare, I take a look than walk away, for hanging around will only bring me tears. From what a see the City is still in much pain. It seems not as busy as usual, but hopefully people will come back, since this lull in business is just giving in to terrorists. I could get the new subway map, but I leave the old one up in defiance. I just wonder, will NYC ever return to what it once was?
I know this so very well.....I left my employment for MTA and was on my way into New York with my first car to be inspected and registered on 911.....and started work after seeing the destruction of six thousand souls and loss of employment of 100 thousand. I know the Gift I was given. Peter
Does anyone here who lives in D.C. want to go on a small field trip? I was wondering if any Washington-area university libraries, which probably have special collections about D.C. history, might have a WMATA history file that includes track or other "blueprint"-type diagrams. Maybe Georgetown University?
The Library of Congress is your best bet. It has practically everything but you'l need to sign up for a free Reader Identification card (you'l have to say you're writing a book or doing some sort of research project first). This will give you practically unlimited access to their holdings. If you want to come down during the week (MARC costs three quarters less to go to D.C. from Baltimore than Amtrak), I'll take you to the correct place to sign up.
Eric Dale Smith
D.C is really skittish about transit security. When Koppel did that special about a biological attack launched in a subway station, Nightline used the D.C. Metro as the example. Though they didn't identify it by name, anybody who'se ridden it could easily identify its stations on TV. Legally you're probably on solid ground but in this present climate the D.C. Police might be able to make some trouble for you nonetheless.
Eric Dale Smith
Gee Dave. I remeber at least two books that have been published including the current PR book on the 25th birthday of MetroRail.
Phil Hom
Virginia Division - BMT
I have that book. There's no track map in it.
The Story of Metro : Transporation and Politics in the Nation's Capital (Interurbans Special, 101) by Ronald Deiter
A history of DC's metro system, technically oriented and hard to find. Published by Interurban Press
That one has one but its quite dated.
Sorry to be chiming in so late on this, Dave.
I don't know what your further correspondence with WMATA has been, but from the email you published there isn't any Constitutional issue, at least not yet.
They did not order you to do anything, they requested it. They informed you that the existence of the map might be "inappropriate." Of course, when a police agency suggests it, there is an obvious "read between the lines" compulsion.
If you refuse and then they take further action, that's where freedom of the press issues come in. If that became the scenario, you have a different decision to make.
Legally (based on life, not lawyerly experience) there is a big difference if this is or is not wartime. A lot of things were different during Viet Nam, because that was not legally a war.
Is this a war? Congress didn't declare one, but the U.S. is using United Nations procedures and Congressional backing to take war-like actions. If it came down to the nitty-gritty, the Supreme Court might have to take up the issue, assuming they had a clear test case and the desire.
If it is a war, asking, indeed requiring, people like you and me not to post information with defense implications is clearly within the government's rights.
I think WMATA is being paranoid, so are people at BART. But I don't know just how paranoid. Put it this way, suppose there is a chance that some dudes would be surfing the Internet in the hope of easily acquiring this information. Is our railfanly desire to look at tracks and switches for the time being that important?
If governments or agencies become much more frisky about what we can and cannot put on our websites, maybe I would feel differently.
Paul, et al, you are assuming that "dudes" have only recently started surfing. For all their extremely Luddite whining about 'Westoxification" and our consumer infidel culture they have access to the web one assumes from press reports. This silly locking up stuff already available for years IS NOT enhancing security. As to war "declared or undeclared" ever since a USSC waffle during the VietNam 'non'war the distinction is mostly on paper. And when all of the freedoms and 'rule of law' which mark our proud history have been canceled, we have nothing left worth defending.
Paul, et al, you are assuming that "dudes" have only recently started surfing. For all their extremely Luddite whining about 'Westoxification" and our consumer infidel culture they have access to the web one assumes from press reports. This silly locking up stuff already available for years IS NOT enhancing security.
We don't know what terrorists have and have not seen.
As to war "declared or undeclared" ever since a USSC waffle during the VietNam 'non'war the distinction is mostly on paper.
Not so. There are many milirary rules and regualtions that are different depending upon when you are in or not in a declared war.
And when all of the freedoms and 'rule of law' which mark our proud history have been canceled,
That's a stretch.
we have nothing left worth defending.
Our lives. This is no longer a theoretical discussion.
>>> Paul, et al, you are assuming that "dudes" have only recently started surfing. <<<
And you are assuming that all the terrorists in the world already exist and have done all of their planning at some time in the past. It is just as likely that someone tomorrow might get the idea to cripple the Washington subways and start doing his research then to find out how best to carry out his plan. A track map would be quite helpful to him, and even if he could find it somewhere else, there is no reason to let him get it easily and anonymously.
I certainly have to agree with Paul that the e-mail Dave received is no more of a restraint of freedom of the press than if one of the regular posters on this board sent him an e-mail saying "A track map might help potential terrorists, maybe you should remove them." In both cases, Dave has to evaluate the suggestion, decide whether he agrees with the analysis of the threat, and take the action he believes is appropriate. He retains the freedom to do what he wants to do. There was nothing coercive in the tone of Mr. Hill's e-mail. The furor raised in response on this board, compared to how little is said about the constant ID checks to travel through tunnels and the reduction of public access to buildings during business hours, is a case of whose ox is getting gored.
Tom
It is just as likely that someone tomorrow might get the idea to cripple the Washington subways and start doing his research then to find out how best to carry out his plan. A track map would be quite helpful to him, and even if he could find it somewhere else, there is no reason to let him get it easily and anonymously.
I would hand mail a track map to the terrorists themselves if it meant defending free speech. People need to realize that you can't block most forms of information. Highly motovated people (like terrorists) will ALWAYS be able to find this still out no matter what we do. Therefore, prevention lies not in preventing the plan, but preventing the action through direct vigilance. To do otherwise only punishes the innoscent.
I would hand mail a track map to the terrorists themselves if it meant defending free speech.
Do you realize that is literal treason?
It's disturbing to me how many people think rights exist simply because they are written down on a piece of paper. Maybe we can get a writ against Osama bin Ladin. I nominate you to deliver it to him.
"I would hand mail a track map to the terrorists themselves if it meant defending free speech."
When liberal (extreme) concepts of freedom acquire more import than human life, is it any wonder that "liberal" has become a dirty word?
People need to realize that you can't block most forms of information.
We did a pretty good job during World War Two. Of course, back then, people cared more for the safety of their fellow countrymen than for their own selfish needs.
"Highly motovated people (like terrorists) will ALWAYS be able to find this still out no matter what we do."
Criminals will always attack the easiest target. Our job now lies in presenting them with few, or no such easy avenues.
"Therefore, prevention lies not in preventing the plan, but preventing the action through direct vigilance. To do otherwise only punishes the innoscent."
Wrong. We would all be safer if the planning never gets so far as to advance to the action stage. Security measures don't punish the innocent; they protect the innocent.
...well, you're both right and both wrong. the security measures both punish and protect the people. There is such thing as over and under protecting the people, and that's where it gets to the protect/punish debate.
"...well, you're both right and both wrong. the security measures both punish and protect the people."
I am bound by law to stop when I come to a red light. This restricts my freedom, but it does so in the interest of protecting me and others. Such a restriction is not punishment. It is the amount of curtailment of my personal freedom that is nessesary to provide the maximum amount of safety to the maximum amount of people. I choose to act in accordance with the greater good rather than to childishly whine about my restricted range of action.
"There is such thing as over and under protecting the people,"
Yes, and it is probably impossible to gauge the exact amount of protection nessesary in any given situation. In our current situation, with so much at stake, if we are given the choice between under- or over-protection, please give me over-protection.
>>> I would hand mail a track map to the terrorists themselves if it meant defending free speech. People need to realize that you can't block most forms of information. <<<
I am sure the ghosts of the Rosenbergs, and those persons now sitting in prisons convicted of espionage appreciate your sentiment.
Tom
Good Post, Tom, I was worried about you
"Highly motovated people (like terrorists) will ALWAYS be able to find this still out no matter what we do"
Nice to know that you'd actively seek them out and make it easy for them. It's one thing if they (terrorists) can get information ligimately and use it. It's a whole other thing when "right-thinking" people like you would supply it to them just to prove some silly academic princilple.
No action need be taken if he's not acting in an official capacity. The wise-ass response in me says to email him back, and find out when the WMATA intends to take down all the maps in their stations and cars, sieze any street maps that indicate Metro stops, and remove all signs from the stations. That's just a start. You can also suggest the Men in Black mind eraser so that the people who remember where they have to go every day will forget.
-Hank
This is a rather absurd exmple of a 2-bit brueraucrat (yes, even cops can be bureaucrats) trying to show he's thought of everything, even if it means deleting info. that can be found anywhere by anyone with shoe leather or a modem.
I wouldn't dignify it with a response. But if they pursue it, the ACLU is the way to go.
Here's something i received anonymously just now. Since it was anonymous I don't think they can argue against me posting it here. It's clear to me that this person doesn't think protecting an individual's constitutional rights is a path to enduring freedom and that abandoning what this country has stood for for 225 years is acceptable in the face of adversity. Surely a track map is one small thing that isn't that big a deal by itself but when the day comes when the police can say, with force of law, don't say that, don't publish that, we've lost our enduring freedom.
Subway Page feedback on 10/12/2001 13:00
------------------------------------------------------------
Comments:
In reply to your statement "A request from the Washington, D.C. WMATA Metro Police to remove the Washington Metro Track Map has been received-- and implemented. Hopefully this is the last such request. Obviously this site and its webmaster do not wish to be perceived as being unsupportive of national security efforts but
hopefully the Constitution is not going to be totally abandoned in the near future.", I state:
After a vicious terrorist attack on American soil that took over 5,000 lives and caused billions of dollars in damage, how could you even think of protesting a request to remove a track map that was perceived to be a threat to our national security? Aren't you aware that within the last 24 hours the FBI has alerted local law enforcement agencies to be on the highest alert, as the government has reason to believe that there may be additional terrorist attacks within the United States and against U.S. interests overseas over the next several days? Take time to reflect on this, as the ruins of our WTC continue to smolder, and our rescue people
continue to pull bodies out of the wreckage. We must all pull together for the good of the country and push petty nonsense aside. Above all, we need to cooperate with the authotities when it is brought to our attention that something we are doing is putting our national security at risk. Don't worry so much about our constitutional rights. !
Another such attack and we may find ourselves under martial law. God Bless America.
Realname: Supporter of "Enduring Freedom"
E-Mail:
Location:
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What?
I'll qualify it even futher.... WHAT an asshole!!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't worry so much about our constitutional rights. !
Gotta LOVE that line. What idiot didn't realize the constitutional right they were exercising when they posted it?
-Hank
see post 257621.
What does that have to do with anything?
It's not there.
-Hank
It is in the Archives
The response to this horror has been a little insane.
I frankly find it hard to figure out what track map information would be more informative to a terrorist than a route map. Take out a key interlocking? It would be fixed in a week.
We've had some insanity elsewhere -- searching through people's purses (as if people are obsessing over the TA in Afghanistan). Eventually people will calm down.
The poster must have been from Washington. No one has complained about the media practically egging people on to releasing anthrax in the NYC subway.
Can you do an IP trace on this?
Hey Dave, I think that by taking down that map you are giving in just a little too easily. Hopefully, you will put the map back up as soon as you feel you can.
- Lyle Goldman
Dave, I'm no lawyer, but if you're just publishing a system map, how can they have a problem with that? It's public information- like NYC, they give away system maps in the stations. It's not like you're stealing any royalties either- they don't charge for the maps.
Read the rest of the threads, it was the TRACK map they objected to.
Except for the minor detail that the original post doesn't make mention of the track map, but does say 'System Map'.
-Hank
Yes, but how would you interpret "rail transfers and crossovers" keeping in mind that the person writing those words is not a rail buff?
By the way, have you gotten any reply from WMATA (or the WMATA PD) about the person/issue?
If nothing official comes in writing from WMATA I would suggest just putting it back with no notice.
Considering that he works for WMATA, I'd call him someone who probably can't do his job very well. How can he hope to protect these things if he doesn't know what to call them?
Funny though, no one really cared about the track map, but now with all of the publicity coming out of it people have gotten interested in seeing what the brouhaha is about. Not smart IMO.
"Funny though, no one really cared about the track map, but now with all of the publicity coming out of it people have gotten interested in seeing what the brouhaha is about. Not smart IMO."
The official was not being smart when he assumed that train buffs would put concern for the safety of their fellow Americans ahead of their hobby. He had no idea that he was in a forum where mailing a track map to terrorists would be advocated. He was obviously wrong in believing that all Americans are united against a common enemy that wishes death upon us all. I guess he's somewhat smarter now that he knows what to expect from train buffs.
It used to be that the common perception of train buffs was that of a pimple-faced, sexless nerd; obsessed over his hobby. As much as I disliked that portrayal, it's preferable to the one which that official may take away from his contact here.
Well then why don't we just shut down this entire site? I mean almost everything in here can be twisted into an idea for a madman. Ooh, click on that pic of the Brighton Beach station, we could do something with that! Look at that little hiding place over there!
And the TA might as well as stop printing subway maps. We don't want the terrorists finding out where the major connections to other lines are.
You see how stupid the above statements look? That's just it, you can't censor MINOR things in the name of "national security". It's just a simple uncomplex diagram of the tracks, stations and switches. It's not like an instruction manual on how to operate a train. The only difference between a track map and a regular subway map is the fact that you don't see where the switches are, and it's absolutely nothing that cannot be drawn by a terrorist simply by looking out the front window of a moving train.
"Well then why don't we just shut down this entire site?"
Because security measures are not the acts of irrational madmen. They are calculated to go only so far as to be able to provide protection against real, not imagined threats.
Remember "Loose Lips Sink Ships?" I imagine that your response to that campaign would be to say "Well then why don't we just stifle all talk?"
"...[a track map is] absolutely nothing that cannot be drawn by a terrorist simply by looking out the front window of a moving train."
It would be time-consuming to get all of the details copied down by hand from looking out a window. Like all criminals, the terrorists look for easy targets. As I mentioned before, let's not make things too easy on the terrorists. Let's provide them with few, or no opportunities.
If a Middle-Eastern looking fellow were to attempt such a thing, I'm hopefull that a vigilant subway rider would have his suspision aroused.
Those liberal fuzzy heads might take stock of their feelings if they read the papers this morning. Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, a liberal himself, got mailed a letter containing Anthrax germs. This is serious shit. We have to take all precautions now. And we certainly can't let track info fall into the hands of terrorists bent on destroying us. We have to be realistic now. We are in a war footing and the war is being conducted to a point at home.
The Daschle letter won't change any liberals' minds. Facts have nothing to do with the way liberals think. It requires courage to accept the fact that there are evil people on the planet who wish to kill you. Once you accept that fact you must step up to the plate and do your part.
It's much safer for liberals to treat America as if she were the enemy. You can protest and hate America without danger. It takes at least a modicum of guts to stand up and denounce true evil.
I think the WMATA Deputy Chief got just what he asked for: David took down the track map. As for his opinion of train buffs, I doubt it was changed at all. Most Transit personnel view train buffs as one of life's little annoyances - you can't make them go away, but you don't have to like them either. At work, there is a handful of people who think of me as a buff, and occasionally give me grief about it. But - let them have a question and they all come looking for me because they are certain I will know the answer. I'd be willing to bet that people like Zman also have the same problem.
I'm sure that a lot of things that get posted here by Transit employees could be used for various nasty things (go read that thread that includes ridership figures for most of the West Side IRT); and until either a rule at Transit or a law in NYS prohibits us from these things, they will get mentioned again, because with a little effort on someone's part, it is waiting to be found. At this point I have two track maps for NYCTransit - one from Transit itself and one from Peter Dougherty. You know what - Peter's is better: it's more accurate, easier to read and shows major signals. The kicker: any moron with $30 US can buy it. Should there be a recall? It's no less dangerous than the WMATA track map.
I love the Dougherty book. It's a NYC Subway buff's dream come true. On the other hand, if an official entrusted with the safeguarding of my life and the lives of my fellow Americans were to take an action in our interests that hampered my ability to indulge in one of my personal picadillos, I would accept his action with thanks. I would not try to second guess someone who's doing a job that furthers the essential interests of myself, my family and my fellow citizens.
You know its coming -- in next year's budget. The NYCT is running an operating deficit and drawing down its cash reserve, counting on state aid to make up the difference, and going deeper into debt to cover its capital plan. That money is going to run out. So what do we do to keep the politicians from repeating the mistakes of the past -- cutting maintenance, which won't be noticed for a few years -- then letting the system go to hell?
First on the block in my view is midnight service. Limit it to the IRT into Downtown Brooklyn, the Hub, and Queens Plaza, and have bus connections from there.
Second, raise fares, but only for rush hours (and unlimited rides). The price could be $2.00 for rush hour service, $70 for the monthly pass, but no increase for non-rush hour service. If the number of rush hour trains goes down, shave a little off service.
Third, cut this stuff about closing booths. Close them all, and shrink the staff by attrition, but have at least one station agent in every station. If the TWU won't go along with this now, we might as well plan to fight a strike next time around.
Fourth, toll the bridges into Manhattan, and use the money to keep maintaining the road and rail infrastructure on a pay as you go basis.
Fifth, stop station capital improvements, except the big ones now in process and new transfers (Jay/Lawrence, Bleeker/Bwy Lafayette). America wants us to live in squalor, but as long as the stations are usable, at least the transit system will work.
Sixth, temporarily close stations close to other stations. These include not reopening Rector on the N/R, and closing 28th Street on the N/R, 1/9, and 6. Perhaps some stations on the BMT southern division can be closed and skipped too.
Seventh, abandon some low ridership bus routes, especially where the "community" has made a stink (ie. the B71).
This is all awful, but tax increases appear to be out, as is federal and state help for NYC for this kind of thing. If anything, the feds will try to keep cutting aid to NYC. And this is better than:
o Layoffs
o Wage cuts
o Deferred maintenance and later system collapse.
1) It is a well known fact that nighttime service on the IRT is equivalent to rush hour in many other American cities. Besdies, it wasn't too long ago that people were screaming about overcrowed trains at night, which forced the MTA to extend routes that normally wouln't run at night.
2) Fare increases beyond $1.50 may cause an insurrection at this point in NYC history. Maybe the MTA will have to start zoning fares or charging double fares at certain stations like the "T" does in Boston or WMATA in DC.
3) Close token booths in certain directions during night hours, like have only the downtown platform's booth at E. 143rd St. open bet. 11PM and 6 AM. I, like others, aren't too comfortable walking through unstaffed stations late at night.
4) I can live with that (for a little while at least). But can how will MTA Bridges and Tunnels and NYCDOT manage the money?
5) Would that include the Bway El. in Bklyn and Qns, which is currently close to falling apart due to extreme old age?
6) This would also be best done during nights.
7) Any suggestions?
Just my two cents on this issue.
Save your two cents. One of the wealthiest cities in the world may subsidize rides for some of the wealthiest passengers...but the little known secret is that ADVERTISING is a major source of income. Peter
It's a little-known secret because it isn't true. NYCT's advertising revenues amount to a few million dollars a year. With a $3 BILLION operating budget, that's little more than a rounding error.
David
Well the fare should go up to $2.00 for a single ride, considering how everything else in NYC has gone up a subway ride is TOO cheap. I don't ride the subways in the middle of the night so I'm not sure of any suggestions for cuts in night service, but I've heard the 7 train is pretty busy even late at night. I'd rather see fare hikes and token booths close than cuts in service. There isn't enough to begin with. I'd rather pay more and get a better product. As far as security, cameras and electronic survailance is alot cheaper than token clerks.
So would this eliminate the deficit?
Price per ride $2.00
Weekly unlimited $20
Monthly $68
Reduced fares would be increased, like an $8.50 weekly would cost $9
Token booths would be closed, but major terminals will keep the booths.
Or there's privatization. Are the systems in Hong Kong and Singapre, as well as London's tubes privatized?
And lastly, all the bridges should be tolled. And tolls should go up. Driving should be discouraged by keeping the single occupant car ban, and raising tolls.
Surprised that no one has mentioned this so far (I think), but Railtrack in the UK has just had the plug pulled on it. The government refused to pour any more money in, and has bankrupted it instead. Shareholders may initiate legal action to get ANY money back. Not sure whether the Underground will be privatised after this fiasco.
(So would this eliminate the deficit?)
A fare increase to $2.00 off peak is more than I'm willing to go. At least some less well off occupations tend to have shifts that start/end off peak.
As for the deficit, it depends on how much tax dollar funding will fall -- both from the general fund and from direct MTA taxes.
too many people use the trains at night, and the buses just plain suck. it wouldn't fly. maybe the 2 dollar fair, but not the curtailed night service. niever.
Never mind that. Massive service cuts do little to help the operating budget. The fare-box recovery ratio for the subway was about 100% and ridership is 97% of normal.
Just toll the free East River bridges at whatever the demand will bear.
Toll my free bridges and you'll get Bin Ladens war started.
I feel that if they do toll the East River bridges, it should be Monday thru Friday, from approx 6am to 8pm. Also, during that time, disabled folks and commercial vehicles should get a waiver that would make it free for them. Commercial vehicles are USUALLY coming into Manhattan for business reasons, they usually are transporting goods, or are on their way to their base in Manhattan where they will be dispatched to deliver items throughout the day. A lot of disabled people cannot ride the subways due to several reasons. However, any healthy, able bodied person who would normally drive a private automobile can ride public transportation. 99% of those people who currently drive into Manhattan have the attitude that they are "too good for the subway", similar to those who ride Express Buses that run a couple of blocks from a subway line in Brooklyn or The Bronx. Those express bus riders do pay more for that privelage, so unnecessary car commuters should do the same. If they are "too good for the subway", they surely can afford a bridge toll, especially since they are wasting hundreds of dollars at parking garages. What's another couple of bucks to them?
If Ferrer wins the runoff on Thursday, there's no way in the world he's going to cut IRT service north of The Hub. The prime area the IRT serves almost exclusively is the Bronx, and Ferrer sounds at times as if he wants to move all of the lower Manhattan financial district up there. He'd probably cut E/F late night service to Queens (I really think he's that clueless) before he'd axe the Bronx lines.
A flat rush-hour fare increase might pass, if people could be made to understand the financial need. Zoned fares would be out, though, because any system like that would favor Manhattan riders, who tend to stay in-borough, over those from Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx who work in the midtown or downtown areas.
If the city wanted to play hardball, they could present the booth closing vs. higher fare option to the public and then see if the TWU's counter-argument that booth closings=less safety would win out.
Station rehabs outside the WTC zone could be pushed back, and the MTA could delay the R-160 order for a few years and keep the R-38/40/42s going a little longer to save on up-front costs per unit for each of the new cars. The biggest improvement project going on right now anyway is the Manny B rehab, and that's in the DOT budget. Stillwell will look a little messy, though, if it's left in its current condition.
The bridge tolls would probably require a pollution waiver from the EPA for the locations where the booths would be places (no problem, especially while Bush is president), and certain local stops probably could be closed on nights and/or weekends like Fulton and Broad were pre-9/11 on Nassau Street, provided there is another local stop on that or a neighboring line within a quarter mile walking distance.
So who do you think will be the best candidate for mayor when it comes to keeping the subways running? Even though I am no expert, I do think Ferrer would NOT be good for the subways. His alliance with Al Sharpton is alarming enough. We don't need his "divisiveness" at a time like this. Mark Green well who knows, I really dunno much about his ideas about mass transit but I'd rather see Green win the democratic nomination. Perhaps Bloomberg would be the best candidate since he's a businessman and has the know-how to keep business in lower Manhattan and speed along the WTC rebuild. Also like his commercials the best, showing shots of the subways and talking about fixing all boroughs of NYC. I think any cuts in subway or bus service
would very bad for NYC, especially at a time like this we need to keep people in NYC. Whatever it takes to avoid this is very important as the arteries of NYC must be stronger than ever, so business and jobs (thus tax revenue) stay and grow in NYC. Well that's my two cents.
New York does have the "sympathy angle" down in relation to getting federal funds for the subways -- if they play their cards right.
A smart mayor will work with Pataki and Kalikow to come up with MTA projects that will complenent any planned rebuilding of the World Trade Center area and increase the security for any new development there by cutting down on vehicluar traffic around the site. A dumb mayor will fight both the governor and the MTA to do things his own way, and will treat the potential relief funds as some sort of "money pool" omnibus funding gift from the federal government that can be used anywhere in the city. You can't go down to Washington and argue for $54 billion in aid if you come out and publicly announce you plan to spend it on projects 10 miles away from Ground Zero; neither Democrats nor Republicans from states outside the area will go for that because their voters will not go for it.
This is not a hard concept to grasp, and as many problems as I've had in the past with Mark Green's grandstanding, I think both he and Bloomberg know that there's a window of opportuntity here, but it's not going to be either open for long or open to any kind of kid-in-the-candy-store money project you can come up with.
Right now Ferrer strikes me as the 21st Century version of John V. Lindsay when he took office in 1965. Ferrer has a strong set of ideas he wants to implement, just as Lindsey did, but a lot of those ideas are naive, and seems clueless to the realities going on around him (see Lindsay vs. Robert Moses in March of 1966).
Morgan Stanley is not moving to 149th Street and Third Ave., no matter how much money Ferrer wants to spend on a new financial center in The Bronx, and the Congress is not going to give New York the money to build a finanical center in The Bronx that no one is going to use, since Ferrer does not have the pork producing power of either a Trent Lott or a Robert Byrd (or an Al D'Amato, for God sakes), who unfortunately can get projects funded that no one will use.
Does the city need investment in the South Bronx and other sections? Sure, but when you're asking Washington for $54 billion, you need to be very, very specific about what you plan to do with it. Hevesi's $3 billion estimate to fix the subways around WTC was pretty dumb in itself -- $1 million to $2 million a foot for the damaged sections? --but he'll be out of office soon and that number will be forgotten. What the new mayor says will become the official policy of New York City, and as much as even the ultra-conservative Republicans love Rudy and Pataki right now, they're not going to give the city $54 billion if they think the next next mayor is going to go on a wild spending spree for his own pet projects (and Ferrer's most famous backer does play a key role here -- Ferrer has been joined at the hip to Al Sharpton by the media over the last seven weeks, and Dick Armey and Tom DeLay ain't giving Al Sharpton no $54 billion, no way, no place, no how.)
Right now Ferrer strikes me as the 21st Century version of John V. Lindsay when he took office in 1965. Ferrer has a strong set of ideas he wants to implement, just as Lindsey did, but a lot of those ideas are naive, and seems clueless to the realities going on around him (see Lindsay vs. Robert Moses in March of 1966).
Morgan Stanley is not moving to 149th Street and Third Ave., no matter how much money Ferrer wants to spend on a new financial center in The Bronx, and the Congress is not going to give New York the money to build a finanical center in The Bronx that no one is going to use
On the other hand, it might be possible to attract some financial industry back-office operations to The Bronx or East Harlem, provided the city plays its cards right and doesn't overreach. Most of The Bronx has enough transit capacity to support a large influx of workers. So would East Harlem, if the Second Avenue line ever gets built.
Unfortunately, I don't believe Ferrer is the person who could get these things done. It's not that he's not sincere, or that he doesn't have enough "pull" in Washington or Albany, but rather the fact that he's too much in hock to special interest groups who'll be demanding more and more health and social service spending.
(On the other hand, it might be possible to attract some financial industry back-office operations to The Bronx or East Harlem, provided the city plays its cards right and doesn't overreach.)
The two most important factors in the location of corporate operations are race and class. Large corporations will not locate in places where most people are poor and uneducated, regardless of their other advantages. No one is admitting this, but it's true.
Entrepenuerial businesses will locate anywhere that's "hip," that is where there are a lot of other entreprenuerial businesses. Such businesses might move to the Bronx of Downtown Brooklyn, but they can't afford new buildings, and after 50 years of decline those boroughs have few "Class B" buildings ready for occupany. That's the problem.
The city should be looking to become more attractive to new businesses. Large companies all drift to the burbs eventually.
I remember when IBM opened a plant in Brooklyn with all kinds of perks and everyone was happy...then the perks ran out with IBM running away with their profits. The plant became employee-owner operated and then it closed. It's hard to force companies to stay even with perks when the overall cost of operation and commensurate salaries are so high...and harder than ever to find employees with basic skills of any kind willing to work. Peter
Best candidate for subways? 2 words: Bernie Goetz!! -Nick
Sixth, temporarily close stations close to other stations. These include not reopening Rector on the N/R, and closing 28th Street on the N/R, 1/9, and 6. Perhaps some stations on the BMT southern division can be closed and skipped too.
Oddly enough, passenger loads at 28th Street on the 1/2 (formerly the 1/9) appear to have increased dramatically since The Events. At least, this is my impression; I'd like to know if turnstile counts bear this out.
It's not inconceivable. With the increase in local service and the decrease in express service, passengers who used to walk a few extra blocks to an express stop might now decide it's not worth it. (I live between 86th and 96th, closer to the former. I used to often walk to 96th so I'd have my choice of local or express, but now I don't bother. Since the service changes I've only ridden the 3 once, and that was from 14th, after I had just missed a 2.)
Yes, but what about 18th Street on the 1/2? 14th and 23rd are pretty close by and no other subway line has an 18th Street stop. In service, that is. The 6 used to have an 18th Street stop, but it was closed down decades ago. Do we really need 18th Street on the 1/2 line? Sorry if it's anyone's home station, I just want to know how busy 18th Street is.
It's certainly not necessary, but keep in mind that 14th Street on the 1/2/3 extends southward, with exits at 12th Street, while all of the other lines' 14th Street stations extend northward. If an 18th Street station makes sense anywhere (and perhaps it doesn't), it's on the 1/2.
It's certainly not necessary, but keep in mind that 14th Street on the 1/2/3 extends southward, with exits at 12th Street, while all
of the other lines' 14th Street stations extend northward. If an 18th Street station makes sense anywhere (and perhaps it doesn't), it's on the 1/2.
While it's just my impression, I've noticed that 18th Street is about as busy as 23rd, maybe a little bit less, and was comparable to Christopher Street (Christopher now has seen a huge increase in ridership, of course).
Some of the stations on the Brighton line are pretty close to one another, like less than a train length.
I know which two stations on the Brighton Line that are very close together. They are Beverly Road and Courtelyou Road. One of them could perhaps be closed but as usual public outcry would prevent them from closing either one of these stations.
#3 West End Jeff
This is the nastiest one. Close the 34th St and Grand Central stations (and the stations north and south of them). Also close the stations that connect to the LIRR in Queens (or at least, make access very difficult).
Watch the suburban politicians go ballistic, and see how fast the legislature responds.
More realistically, I'd make Manhattan street parking by permit only, and such permits would be *very* expensive. I'd also raise the taxes on garage parking. One wants the law of diminishing returns to kick in.
(More realistically, I'd make Manhattan street parking by permit only, and such permits would be *very* expensive. I'd also raise the taxes on garage parking. One wants the law of diminishing returns to kick in.)
It certainly makes sense to ration street space by dollars rather than queue, if dollars are what you need.
After what happend everyone is going to get hit in the wallet somehow by all of this. I don't think that closing token booths or cutting back subway service will help. Putting people of of work never helps the economy.
For the record, I took a south bound "Q" from Avenue J to Sheepshead Bay at 12:05am tonight and had to stand. One of the reasons that I do not advocate service cuts is the unpredictability of how many people are going where and when etc...
I am not a bus hater, but cutbacks could stand to be made in service, despite the long waits that entails. Station rehabs and infrastructural projects should not be expendable. Those of you who use Stillwell Terminal know that a rehab is desprately welcomed by the commnuity. If the TA wants to save money, then projects like CBTC, Metrocard Express Vending machines, and brand new 2001 Chevrolet Suburbans to transport it's employees are expendable in the interest of creating a workable budget.
NOTE: I do not work for NYCT or its agencies, this is just my humble opinion
Charles
1- I agree raise the fares by 15% which would be $1.75 and increase weekly and monthly by 15% also. I go further than that--make the fare $2.00 and use that money as an annuity and live from the interest between a 1.75 fare and $2 fare.
2- Close booths-- we need more secuirty for the system and not less. Do you think a camera would stop suspicious individuals--NO! would the camera (if ity works) call for help---NO!! NYCers want their booths.
3- Night Service- it is obvious that you have never ridden overnight hours. Many lines have standees throughout most of the night and that includes areas outside of Manhattan such as the L Line. Maybe shorter trains but then you'd have RTO costs in employee time to cut/add cars and wear and tear due to the cut/add. Also during overnight hours, many trains are run light (no passengers) to locatuions to prepare for AM rush.
4- require EZ-Pass and toll those bridges which all tolls going to rapid transit.
5- Station Improvements- this would be a return of the 1970s with deffered maintenance. Many improvements are needed. Sure cuts are possible like using concrete instead of floor tiles.
6- The R160 cars are needed. The cars they will replace will become increasingly unreliable by the time the R160s arrive. With age they'll break down more often cuasing delays. remember- the r32 cars date to the early 1960s! Do you have a 40-45 year old automobile-of course not!
7- NYC cannot run without a subway as was proven during previous transit strikes. I remember the one when I was in High School--one-way bridges, students told to report to nearest school, etc.
NYC must bite the bullet--we need the subway and we still need it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
I don't think the R-160 is slated to replace the R-32, which is still in good shape. (Subway cars are built to last longer than automobiles, so the comparison is irrelevant.)
The R-160's are currently planned to replace the R38, 40 and certain R32 equipment (I believe phase II's, correct me if I'm wrong please).
Yes, thanks for the correction. But I think only the R-32GE's are slated for replacement, and even they may stick it out. The vast majority of R-32's will remain in service.
I think the R-160 will also be replacing the R-42. (I'll miss it. OTOH, I look forward to the day its successors are replaced.)
What can some in a both do that someone in a command center can't? You can't levee the both to stop anything. You can yell like that will do anything you can get killed in the attack. I suppose if you don't get killed you could be a witness but that want do any good if it is a suicide attack.
Right on! Hopefully the next mayor of NYC will see that point.
Garunteed employment
Raise the fare. The only question is whether to raise it across the board or selectively.
Service cutbacks really can only save so much money and they create the image of a system in decline. History shows that deferred maintenance is even worse.
An irony is that raising the fare, especially if it could be done incremently (i.e., around the rate of inflation once or twice a year) is relatively painless--it's more an emotional than real issue.
Even though lower off-peak fares are a good and reasonable idea, they have created major problems in cities like DC where they are used.
Off-peak faresd would cause a problem with congestion-- they would wait until the price went down before going paying their fare.
(Off-peak faresd would cause a problem with congestion-- they would wait until the price went down before going paying their fare.)
I agree -- on the roads too. So you couldn't have a big jump from one moment to the next. You'd have to have the fare to up (or down) a nickel every five minutes over a phase in period. I wonder if our Metrocard system can manage that? I hope so.
BTW, I think if you get on a subway in the outer boroughs in the PM it should count as OFF PEAK. As on the commuter rails, there is plenty of empty space on the trains in-bound at that time (and out-bound as some rush hour passengers get off).
[Even though lower off-peak fares are a good and reasonable idea, they have created major problems in cities like DC where they are used.]
What kind of problems?
Arti
People crowd around the turnstiles waiting for the price to change. People become confused and angry when the cost of their ride is more than they expected because their exit time strayed into rush hour. In terms of the latter, someone exiting might have enough money left on their card for an off-peak exit but not a rush hour exit, so they have to go back to a machine to supplement their fare.
I understand from various anecdotal sources (including my brother, a D.C. resident) that this situation is very unpopular. Unpopular things play even worse in NYC than in DC.
In terms of NY in particular, you have an additional problem. DC is 100% farecards, NYC still uses tokens. Peak & off-peak tokens? I don't think so. You would either have to end tokens altogether or have some means for people to pay a supplement.
Sell tokens at the peak fare. Token users are already throwing away money left and right; why would they suddenly complain about this? Besides, if they don't like it, they can always use MetroCards like the rest of us.
Unless the TA converts the subway to a zone system (which I wouldn't object to in theory but which would cause problems in practice), there won't be exit swipes. The fare would have to be based on the time of entry. Turnstiles could even display the current fare to reduce confusion. (A similar problem already exists with transfers, only the turnstile can't declare if the transfer has expired before the swipe occurs and the loss is a full fare, not a quarter.)
I would be in favor of a peak/non-peak since I believe it would relieve rush hour congestion. Most people have some flexibility in choosing their hours to work. I don't think its bad to encourage the tourist to ride during off-peak (especially in the morning) since that's what I do when I go to London.
=================================================================
>>>>>People crowd around the turnstiles waiting for the price to change.<<<<<
Possibility but I'm already used to have a few people in front of me during rush hour anyway.
>>>>> People become confused and angry when the cost of their ride is more than they expected because their exit time strayed into rush hour. In terms of the latter, someone exiting might have enough money left on their card for an off-peak exit but not a rush hour exit, so they have to go back to a machine to supplement their fare.<<<<<
Hmmm, the off-peak thing should be based on entry into the system. That is as long as your entry ride starts between 9:30 and 4:00 you are riding off-peak. The exit from the system should not matter. Metro North, LIRR and London Underground don't calculate off peak based on exits from the system.
>>>>>I understand from various anecdotal sources (including my brother, a D.C. resident) that this situation is very unpopular. Unpopular things play even worse in NYC than in DC. <<<<<
Poor business analysis and requirements definition on the part of D.C. NYC doesn't have to do the things other transit systems do. If we did we wouldn't have 24 hour service .
>>>>>In terms of NY in particular, you have an additional problem. DC is 100% farecards, NYC still uses tokens. Peak & off-peak tokens? I don't think so. You would either have to end tokens altogether or have some means for people to pay a supplement. <<<<<
Tokens will be gone. A single ride and/or round trip Metrocard will be the lowest value fare media for the future. If a peak/non-peak fare system is implemented, chances are the Metrocard system would be overhauled .
Again, to put the idea on this sub-thread also, you can phase in the fare increase (decrease) at a nickel per five minutes to stop crowding at the turnstile, assuming the Metrocard system will accomodate that.
Unlimited ride cards would have to assume two peak hour fares per weekday, with perhaps a super-discounted addition for additional off-peak rides.
First on the block in my view is midnight service. Limit it to the IRT into Downtown Brooklyn, the Hub, and Queens Plaza, and have bus connections from there.
Great use of sarcasm!
Third, cut this stuff about closing booths. Close them all, and shrink the staff by attrition, but have at least one station agent in every station. If the TWU won't go along with this now, we might as well plan to fight a strike next time around.
A strike is WORSE than deferred maintenence.
Fourth, toll the bridges into Manhattan, and use the money to keep maintaining the road and rail infrastructure on a pay as you go basis.
Don't think that's gonna happen. Would create SICK delays on local streets and just piss people off.
Fifth, stop station capital improvements, except the big ones now in process and new transfers (Jay/Lawrence, Bleeker/Bwy Lafayette). America wants us to live in squalor, but as long as the stations are usable, at least the transit system will work.
Ummm, just because America wants us to live in squalor doesn't mean we have to listen to them.
There are better ways to save money without actually screwing the public. For instance: the night trains that share routes. (1&2, 4&6, N&Q, etc) can be reduced back so that trains no longer double each other. Bus routes can have trimmed hours (B25 at night is basically a replica of the "A" train). But if push came to shove, I'd hate to have those crappy proposals you just mentioned...
Amen, amen, amen. MTA is hiring more 'revenue techs' (I like my present work) and 1200 token booth 'techs' will be ditched leaving one attendant on foot in every station (for both directions.) That is one reason why TV monitors are now mounted to face the conductor when the train stops in a station. Peter
Imagine you are stuck in a HEET or having a heart attack. The TV camera will call for help! of course not. Your friendly neighborehood S/A watches the station and will call police.
TV cameras dont work. Vandals spray paint the camera lens or put stickers over the lens or over the monitor. I currently work one booth with CCTV cameras. One monitor has been out for a month and it has been reported.
Pay phones are vandalized. I can see it now..you are stuck in the HEET and you walk to the pay phone--of course not!
How will the S/A call for help if I'm not in his direct line-of-sight?
With cameras, at least there's a chance that someone who can do something will see me (and cameras could be subject to a rigorous inspection and cleaning program to ensure that they're actually functional). Without cameras, I'm on my own down on the platform, in the twisty passageways, and on the street making my extended walk past the closed entrance to or from the full-time staffed one.
'One step fowards, two steps backwards. Progress is our only setback.' Love it.....MTA is my new home. Peter
(But if push came to shove, I'd hate to have those crappy proposals you just mentioned...)
You aren't supposed to like them; I don't like them either. This is a damage limitation discussion. And unfortunately, that's the world we're in.
Close stations, eh? Let's start with Fort Hamilton Parkway on the "F"! Instead of trying to undercut mass transit, this is exactly the time we should be trying to promote it!
wayne
(Close stations, eh? Let's start with Fort Hamilton Parkway on the "F"! Instead of trying to undercut mass transit, this is exactly the time we should be trying to promote it!)
Missed my station by one. Hey, if you ask me, we should push ahead with the Second Avenue Subway, cut class sizes and give big raises to teachers, and eliminate business taxes to promote growth. The only problem is -- we are going to go broke.
I only hope transit and other infrastructure isn't target #1 in any cutback, but NYCT already had a growing operating deficit. At the very least, rising state support to offset it is unlikely.
In the 1970s they let the system collapse. I assume no one here wants that again.
In the early 1990s, they cut trains and buses in service, stopped buying new cars, and got givebacks from the TWU. But ridership is much higher now, the car fleet is older, and I don't think there are going to be any givebacks (correct me if I'm wrong).
I've listed all the other alternatives I could come up with.
Does anyone know the website where I can get a list of the subway's superintendant numbers(besides the MTA website)?
Ah the prank phone call possibilities are endless...
"Is the F train running?"
'yes'
"Well, I'd better go catch it"
I believe THIS may be what you seek
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks kike Michael Schineis had only N to supervise, what's he doing now?
Arti
What about David Spivey?
Peace,
ANDEE
What about David Spivey?
Peace,
ANDEE
Prank call.
Is the 2 train stopping at Chambers?
Yes.
Good. When the next train gets there, can you hold the doors for me? I'm taking the 1 train from 242nd. I'll be there in about 2 hours. Thanks.
Please don't hold the doors...the pins might fall out. Peter
Prank call 2
Hello?
Yes. I'd like the name of the young lady who was announcing the stops on the Southbound R-142 out of 241st Street at 1:30PM. She had such a sexy voice, I'd like to meet her. Also, why do you now have 2 conductors announcing? I thought you guys were trying to save money.
Last one, I promise. I think today we need a little humor. One month exactly. God.
The East Broad Top is a 3-foot gauge steam railroad in central Pennsylvania that abruptly went out of business in 1956, since it hauled coal to the PRR and the bottom fell out of the coal market. Scrap dealer Joe Kovalchick purchased the property and has been running a tourist operation on it for 40 years. It is conveniently located adjacent to the famous Rockhill Trolley Museum in Rockhill Furnace, PA. The passenger station and HQ is across the street in Orbisonia, PA. I took a few photos of the EBT while visiting the Rockhill Trolley Museum on Saturday Oct 6, which happened to coincide with the EBT's "Fall Spectacular", when they run all their steam engines (only 3 this year; #12 is in the shop) and their gasoline electric doodlebug.
East Broad Top thumbnails
You really get around, don't you.
Look what I got when I tried your link!
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Please contact the server administrator, webshots@c7.webshots.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you
might have done that may have caused the error.
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Apache/1.3.14 Server at community7.webshots.com Port 80
I got that message when I postedthe message; I had to get to the page froma different route. Try again.
East Broad Top railroad thumbnails
That link works a lot better, Thanks!
There are some great shots there. It was really good to see #17 out on the line. It was always in the roundhouse on my visits. I have gotten to ride behind 12, 14 & 15 though.
Did the M-1 make a trip to Colgate Grove?
Thanks for the pictures, they're great!
Again, Bob, excellent pix. The shots of the roundhouse bring back memories of playing and exploring there as a kid. Don't know about you, but I really dislike those flatbed cars on which EBT has mounted side-facing bench seats. I understand why they did it -- so patrons can see the countryside, yada yada -- but I think it detracts from the "historical authenticity," if you will. Also, the long shots from the highway of the "Picnic Train" remind me of a shot my dad took in the seventies during "Winter Spectacular." (Yes, "Fall Spectacular" used to be "Winter Spectacular" until they figured out that running the steam engines in the extreme cold was causing undue wear and tear, so it was moved to October. That, and the fact that getting to Rockhill Furnace in February can be a bit of a problem. I recall the snow shutting down the Turnpike on occasion.) Anyway, in the shot, the train is chugging through the snow on a truly "spectacular" February day. He also has some great shots of the snow sweepers in action at the Trolley Museum. He's getting a slide scanner for his birthday next month, so I hope to get him to transfer some of these slides to JPEGs so I can post them.
Hello there!
This past weekend I had the privelage of being in New York to attend my cousins wedding! I had a fun time while I visited there between Thursday Oct 4th thru Monday the 6th, Even better was that I was able to do some SubwayFanning while I was there! My main objective was visiting all the homes and residences that I remembered while living there, and am happy to have visited All of them! At the same time, I got quite a bit of video and footage of the new things on the subways that I found. Below is a brief summary of some of the things I encountered:
- At the Howard Beach station, I witnessed an Airtrain in action! Apparently they were testing the train and the tracks. I was bummed that I didnt have my camera out fast enough as it was pulling out of the station and my little Largan digital camera wouldnt get ready fast enough. Funny how they look alot like the old rounded bullet Camper trailers of the 1950s!
- While waiting to go to Rockaway, I overheard a few transit workers talking about the upcomming construction that will be done to the station: They had mentioned that a New overcrossing will be built at the station, right where the new Airtrain station currently terminates. This new Overcrossing will replace the existing one, and allow for passengers to be able to walk up from either platform of the Subway and transfer over to the Airtrain. I sure hope they have an Escalator or an elevator to help those people with luggage!
- There now exists a Test Track on the south side of the track on the hassock between Broad channel and the Howard Beach bridge! Also, there is now a short siding on the north side of the tracks right next to the Broad channel station that can hold a 10-car train on the north side, where the S can now turn around.
Comments:
I >LOVE< the 7 Day passes!!!! The one I bought paid itself off that friday as I got on and got off at the various stations visiting places! Thank You MTA!!!
Why in the World are they painting the El over Broadway and New Utrecht Aves in Brooklyn that AWFUL awful dark green color??? Yuck!! The Leafy-Brown color of the Els on Jamaica and Liberty aves look MUCH better!
It would be a REALLY NICE THING if the MTA were to provide a Subway Shuttle Bus (Even if only One little bus) from the Brooklyn Army Terminal directly over to the 59th Street subway station so that one could have easy access to the Lower Manhattan ferry there. If I were still living on New Utrecht and 72nd, I would sure use it!!!
Anybody know whats going to become of the old Plaza at the entrance to the Stillwell Ave station in Coney Island?
Its so Cool how the MTA is propegating Artwork along the system!Definitely an interesting bit of Artwork at 111th Street in Richmond Hill, Queens :) The big head sticking out the side of the station is just sooo out-of-this-world looking! When did the Giant spider hanging from the Signal Tree on the old LIRR Rockaway row first appear? its Perfect for halloween!!!
What a difference on the Franklin Ave Shuttle! My Gosh! So much nicer to travel on it now than back before 87!!
I should have some Photos of my journeys available soon, I dont remember anything else off the wall that I saw, but I tell you that going back to the Subways after reading the information provided on this Wonderful site here REALLY made it That much more of an enjoyable experience!!! :)
Stego, who really needs to voice some opinions to the local Transit authority here in Southern California.... No public busses NOR any shuttle connector to the Train Station... BAH!!! I had to take a $15 cab ride from Ontario Airport to the Metrolink station here when I got back!!! Then, I MISSED the train and had to wait TWO and a HALF HOURS for another one!!! Gosh I got spoiled wit the ease of transit back east... (They killed off the Omnitrans Busses going to the Rancho Cucamonga station because "It was attracting the wrong element".... AIGH!!!!! Theyre all INFANTILE over here!!!!)
I went to San Francisco for a long Columbus Day weekend. The United 767s from Boston were nearly full in both directions. Tourism seemed to be at normal levels in SFO; at least the cable car lines were as long as always! At the airport, the people mover system seems nearly complete. Guideways stretch all the way to the car rental facility (which will eliminate an arduous bus ride), and cars are stationed along the route, though I didn't see any doing test runs on the holiday weekend. The BART extension to the airport construction continues, but there is still much work to be done.
The three-day MUNI pass is still a great bargain at $10. I surpassed its "value" well before the first day was up, as cable car rides are $2 each, with no transfers. MUNI metro service (J,K,L,M,N lines) is provided exclusively by the new Breda cars off-peak (I assume there are still LRVs during rush hours). I still can't get used to the automated train operation in the subway, which causes a pulsing sensation during braking. Street running is still manual. The new AC-powered, articulated trolley buses are especially good at negotiating the steep grades on a number of lines.
On Market Street, the bright orange Milan cars provide frequent service along with the PCC cars on the F/Market Castro to Fishermans Wharf route. Car crowding was the norm, but frequencies were noticeably better the my last visit, with the addition of the Milan cars. I had two Milan car rides. The first was with a woman operator who was a real pro -- smooth acceleration with even notching, and silky stops with minimal brake valve movement. The second was with a gentleman who could use some more training --- he seemed to notch up to full parallel faster than he shut off the controller(!), causing the line switch to drop on a number of occasions. And he fanned the brakes, causing jerky stops. But the cars are great, making all the right noises! As a credit to both MUNI and the non-profit Market Street Railway, the Milan cars and the PCCs were spotlessly clean over a number of rides, at all times of the day.
I made a quick visit to the Cable Car Museum, which as always, was very busy. Cable Car Museum Chairman Walter Rice (a prolific author on San Francisco transportation, and cable cars in general), does a great job of keeping the place in good order.
I remember the pulsing with the Boeing LRVs, but not with the Bredas. Is the pulsing less obvious on the Bredas?
F line went Exp south of Jay today. Making station stops at 7av, 18 av, and Kings hwy. All stops after. Motorman says it was late to 179. I had the F Train shirt so he liked it
When was the last time that center track on the Culver was used for normal service? I think it might be the late 80's or early 90's but I don't know for sure.
Mid 80's IIRC.
I left NYC after the summer of 1973, so I'm not sure when F express service totally stopped. But here's a history (beginning about 1968) as I remember it. Note: all service described is rush hours only.
1. All F's express between Bergen and Church. Kings Highway marked trains local between Church and Kings Highway, Coney Island bound trains express between Church and Kings Highway peak direction. GG local to Church Av.
2. Kings Highway F's local; Coney Island F's express between Church and Bergen (both directions) and Church and Kings Highway (peak direction). GG local to Church Av.
3. Kings Highway F's local; Coney Island F's express between 18 Av and Kings Highway (peak direction). GG to Smith/9th as per usual.
Thus, no express service over the 4 track section.
I think pattern 3 lasted at least to the late 70's. Then, total elimination of the late, great F express.
Pattern 3 lasted into the mid-eighties when major track work eliminated the express service altogether.
I would have loved to been on that train out of Jay Street.....
Did it go on the express track all the way?
- Lyle Goldman
I am going to Chicago this Sunday. I'll be arriving at ORD at 8:10am. Hopefully, we won't need an F16 escort :) If any Chicago Subtalkers want to meet me and do some railfanning, give me an email to arrange things. A few questions: How bad is the wait at O'Hare for checking in? Where is a good place I can get some real Chicago deep dish pizza? Is the top of the Sears Tower open for tourists, and if so, how long is the wait?
is there a museum train ride(s) like there is in nyc ..i undersood there is such a thing goin' on there !
maybe someone has more information .......like links to some good websites etc....
is there such a thing as a museum train ride in chicago ??? .............
i really do want to know !! ......thanks ........salaamallah...
They have occasional train tours but nothing like New York. A good website is www.chicago-l.org. It's run by a fellow (a great dude) by the name of Graham Garfield and has everything you want to know about the system.
Eric Dale Smith
I'm up for getting together. Look for the e-mail I sent you.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Rob:
David Cole is a great guy to hang out with. I had a blast when I was with him in Chicago. Also, try to hook up with Graham Garfield, Webmaster of www.chicago-l.org. He's also a good person to know. The Douglas L is still falling down so you might be able to pick up a few samples to take back to Atlanta.
Eric D. Smith
is there a museum train ride(s) like there is in nyc ..i undersood there is such a thing goin' on there !
maybe someone has more information .......like links to some good websites etc....
is there such a thing as a museum train ride in chicago ??? .............
i really do want to know !! ......thanks ........salaamallah...
Not really. Every once in a while the Illinois Railway Museum or CERA has a fan trip, but not very often.
-- David
Chicago, IL
put this into your url highlight the line below
http://community-2.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars/CHICAGOSLSUBWAY/index.html
now on this link this guy E mails me back says he shoots videos of the chicago subway & el systems etc...
also check out the museum cars he says runs in chicago etc............ railfan videos with OPTO ???
thats why i asked the question about a museum train etc... thanks .....salaamallah
Chicago "L" cars have full-width cabs for OPTO. However, there's a window in the cab bulkhead that allows people to look through the cab and out the actual railfan window. I don't know much about taking videos, but I don't see any reason you couldn't do railfan videos on the "L" if you had the zoom set correctly.
-- David
Chicago, IL
2 sets of windows like the r-142........!!!.........rats !!! .........thank you sir !!
Salaam,
I took videos (as well as still shots) through the railfan windows of "L" cars during the SubTalk Labor Day weekend Chicago trip. The view is excellent when no one is blocking the view(Red Line at Belmont), fair with a small person sitting in the conductor's seat (Red Line at Fullerton, and nonexistant when a friend of the motorman stands in the way (Purple Line) or someone nearly the size of Lou from Brooklyn occupies the space (South Shore).
He was shaking hands, I shook his hand, and I observed him for a bit. He kept on saying vote for me and various things before vote for me. One that that caught my attention since there was a huge line from the curb to the stairs going into the downtown 6 train, is he said "Want the lines to disappear, vote for me!" So, if we vote for him, somehow he'll miraciously increase the number of trains or actually *BUILD* the second avenue subway (Oh my god, it would be bliss)...What boggles me is why the mayor and the city government controls our subway and bus system, and why doesn't the President or Chairman take control of the MTA.
Lines will disappear my ass.The lines will never disappear.Those long waits on the subway,the standing up on a speeding train,the delays are not going to go away.Yeah you can ease them to an extent,but go away I think not.Even if the Second abenue line is built there is still goig to be standing up on the train.For all of these to go away there would have to be a hell of alot more subway lines.
Clayton, when you are old enough to vote (4 years from now) I wonder what Mark will be running for (I hope a second term as Mayor - yes I am voting for Mark Green in todays run-off).
So there!
..."Want the lines to disappear, vote for me!" So, if we vote for him, somehow he'll miraciously increase the number of trains or actually *BUILD* the second avenue subway...
Or, the system will revert to its 1970s state, and far people will want to ride it... ;)
>>>...and far people will want to ride it...<<<<
...and just WHO are the far people...demented minds want to know...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoops... far fewer people. Thought completed.
HMMM....I thought as much....
Peace,
ANDEE
To my friends north of the border, I may be visiting Montreal later this month:
Who can tell me the best way to use the CTCUM in Montreal - a six ticket strip (CAN$8.25)with transfers, or the all day pass for CAN$7.00? And are the metro/bus tickets also good on the commuter rail lines within Montreal Island?
Thank you.
Go to Toronto. The transit is better, the people are friendlier, and there's no language barrier. Even though a lot of people speak and understand English in Montreal, some of them will refuse to speak it, just to bust chops. I asked a driver in English on a Laval Transit bus if he went to a particular destination, he answered me in French,"Oui, monsuier"(not sure about spelling). However, no matter which city you do go to, if you like hamburgers, I suggest you check out Harvey's. The best burgers!
If you go to Montreal, go to Mr. Steer. Their burgers are better than Harvey's and they don't hesitate to speak English there (after all, they call themselves Mr. Steer and not something like Monsieur Vache or Monsieur Steer).
-Robert King
there was a great steak place call moishas (pardon the spelling)
There is law in Quebec that all outdoor signs must be in French, on one of my numerous trip there in the early 90's, I read about a local merchanrt who recieved a fine for having his sign in "English", yet the man who owned the store was a French speaker and he said there is no French word for "Locksmith". I don't know if they had to pay or not.
I heard stories about how they had to use unorthodox terms for baseball positions when the Expos joined the National League.
At least he'd be able to free himself from jail.
To 5301 Fishbowl...
Would you get on a NYC bus and ask the driver a question in French? And when it comes to Laval Transport, Laval is a VERY French suburb of Montreal... so it would be more like getting on a Westchester Bee Line bus and asking the driver a question in French.
Some advice. Try no matter how bad your French is, try to learn a few sentences in this language before you arrive. If you make an attempt to speak in French, even a bad attempt, the other person is more likely to respond in English than if you start off from the first word in English.
Remember, the people in Montreal can't immediately tell if you're an English-speaking Canadian who refuses to become bilingual... or an American who's not expected to know French.
When you arrive, go to any subway station and get a subway/bus map (Carte de Reseau... pronounced "kart deh reh-so") which is very detailed and includes nearly every street on Montreal Island. And buy a strip of transit tickets. Unless you plan to spend the whole day doing little other than jumping on and off subways and buses I think you won't use up $7 in transit tickets in a single day. Remember transfers between bus and subway are very liberal. When you enter a bus get a transfer ticket (unless you're paying with a transfer) and every time you enter a new subway station you should also get a new transfer ticket (this you CAN do even if you entered on another transfer). This way you can go from bus to subway to bus (something you can't do in NYC) on a single fare. Just remember you can't use a subway transfer ticket at the same station you just received it.
One more tip...about food. Yes Harvey's is a great hamburger chain. And I think both St. Hubert and Suisse Chalet are GREAT chicken chain restaurants. The chickens are marinated and grilled over open flames...and the Canadian Barbeque sauce (not like American tomato-sweet barbeque sauces but more like a thick vegetable soup) is MAGNIFIQUE!
Craig
^
Unfortunately, Montreal is still part of Canada, and there are 2 official languages of Canada, English and French. I see your point, but it's not like I was in France expecting everybody to cater to me by speaking English. And you would assume that in a "customer service" job like that of a bus driver, where you deal with the public, you would have to know the 2 languages of the country. When I started with NJ Transit in 1998, they actually gave us a 'handbook" listing common customer oriented questions and answers in Spanish. And as you've probably seen, in New York City, transit pamphlets are frequently printed in multiple languages for the "convenience" of those unable or unwilling to learn English. So I didn't think that it was so far fetched to speak in one of the "official" languages to a bus driver in Laval.
You have what would seem like a resonable point, but I would like to ask our friends from Canada, what result would you get in Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton or Vancover if you asked a question of a bus driver or similar person in French? While it may be an offically bi-lingual country, I don't know how much French is spoken outside of Quebec. So I sort of understand the desire of the French to keep their culture and language alive.
And I must say that in Montreal (pretty much any place on the island) that when I asked a question, politely, in English, I always received a polite response in English. I think the key is how you approach someone. Yet in Quebec City, I do recall people responding to my questions spoken in English with a French response. They obviously knew what I was asking as they responded in some detail - in French.
Ottawa's completely bilingual, you can get services in both languages from anywhere, in fact bilingualism is a requirement for most jobs where you serve the public. In Toronto, Calgary and other Canadian cities if you speak to them in French they'll do they're best to meet you halfway and speak as much French as they know.
I've seen bilingual signs in Edmonton, Toronto, Halifax, and other Canadian cities, though not to the extent as in Ottawa.
And interesting point is that all signs here in Ottawa are 100% bilingual. On the other hand, if you go across the river to Hull, in Quebec, all the signs there are unilingual French, despite having a high population of English speakers. This shows the unwillingness of the Quebec provincial government to meet the needs of the English speaking population, even where there are many English speakers living in the area.
As I mentioned in an earlier post on this subject, once the local "Quebecers" (?) learned that a visitor was from the states, they were quite cordial. All we had to do was wear something that showed we were from the states. Yankee stuff, as all New York City items, are hot. And they totally hated our crucifying the French language; so we dropped that and stuck to English. Got by well enough. It was a pleasant surprise to walk in downtown Montreal and find a store named "Bronx". They can't be too prejudiced, can they?
And to make another point, as a worker in Manhattan (now semi-retired)for many years, I ran into many, many tourists hwo made an effort to speak English when asking questions. If they were French, Italian, Spanish or whatever, I didn't answer in their native tongues; I answered in English. Does that put me on the same footing as a Montreal bus driver who answered "oui"?
joe c
>And to make another point, as a worker in Manhattan (now semi-retired)for many years, I ran into many, many tourists hwo made an effort to speak English when asking questions. If they were French, Italian, Spanish or whatever, I didn't answer in their native tongues; I answered in English. Does that put me on the same footing as a Montreal bus driver who answered "oui"?
No, because New York is not an officially bilingual city. The US is not an officially bilingual country. Canada is, and as such, people who speak either language deserve to at least have a bus driver or other public worker explain something such that they can be understood. Something the Quebec government and those Quebecers who don't like English Canadians tend to forget is that they are in an officially bilingual country, and as such anyone who speaks English or French has the right to be served in their own language. This is why all government services in all provinces have to provide services in both languages. Transit authorities are a government service, and therefore they have that obligation. Most other transit authorities realize this. The STCUM in Montreal, and STL in Laval do not. Nor does the Government of Quebec realize that as a province it has to provide bilingual services as well.
On a related issue, the TTC in Toronto has a very useful service. If you call their info line and ask to be spoken to in, say, Greek, they will transfer you to a TTC info line where you can be spoken to in Greek. Many languages are represented on this system. Last time I called the STCUM info line (although I admit this was probably four or five years ago and may have changed), you would get service in English if you were lucky enough that there was an operator working that day who spoke English. Montreal has a population as diverse as Toronto, so why doesn't the STCUM provide the same service as the TTC? Or, at the very least, a service in English, the other official language?
"Montreal has a population as diverse as Toronto, so why doesn't the STCUM provide the same service as the TTC? Or, at the very least, a service in English, the other official language?".....
Judging from the political climate up there, they may just think it beneath them.
Joe C
The people of the Province of Quebec seem to have always felt that they've been left out from the rest of Canada, and they hold dear to their French roots by attempting to drown out anything English.
There even is a law in the City of Montreal that states that any sign posted in English must have an equal sign in French that is twice as big as the English sign.
But considering that this is one of their biggest problems up north, they've got it pretty good up there right about now.
That law doesn't pertain to Montreal only - it applies everywhere in Quebec. It has been the source of numerous complaints from English communities in the province.
-Robert King
When you mentioned Greek, it reminded me of a funny story a person (of Greek heritage) who I had meet several times in a bar in Montreal told me. One day he was traveling back into Canada (Quebec) and upon hitting the border check point (and speaking English) the border guard very nastily told him (after seeing the Quebec Plate) "Speak your mother tongue." This man then spoke to the guard in Greek!
Quebec is using this language barrier to separate themselves from Canada physically. they were even trying to vote themselves into an independent country. thats why so many people left montreal(including the french speaking) and moved to other provinces and it is also the reason why tourism has fallen. however, STCUM website can be read in english
They've tried to vote themselves out of the country several times now. Most senior politicians in Quebec now realise that the best gig to keep going is to keep threatening to leave the country while making sure not to actually separate - that way Quebec retains all of the federal funding they get!
-Robert King, who was born in Toronto because his parents up and left Montreal in 1973.
I used an all day pass when I was there. Considering that everwhere you would want to go in Montreal is near the subway, you'll get your money's worth. And they are good for the buses as well. Have fun, the city is awesome.
If you travel to Montreal and want to know about the transit, I suggest you visit the SCTUM website at www.stcum.qc.ca. They have English and French versions and you can find everything you might want to know about the transit system (maps, schedules, history, etc.).
To answer your question about fares, the transfer system is very liberal in Montreal (much more so than in New York). A transfer is valid for 90 minutes after the time marked on it, and it can be used for an uninterrupted one-way journey via any combination of buses and metro (or just busses). If you intend on making more than three round-trips in a single day, then by the $7 day pass. You might also want to look into the $14 3-day pass, or the $13.50 weekly pass (Sunday through Saturday validity only).
Train fares are a little more complicated. STCUM bus tickets are NOT accepted on the trains, but you can use a regular bus/metro transfer to board the train without the need to pay again if you stay within Zone 1. Going to zone 2 requires that you pay a supplement ($2) if you have a transfer (otherwise, the fare is $4 from zone 2). If you board a train in either zone 1 or 2, then you can obtain a transfer to get onto a STCUM bus or metro. A weekly bus pass allows unlimited train rides in zone 1, and you pay an extra $2 if you ride the trains in zone 2. Zones 3 and beyonds are off-island zones, where the fare structure is different. You can see the fare grids for the commuter trains at www.amt.qc.ca, but the web site is in French only. I'm not sure if the 1- and 3-day tourist passes are accepted on the trains. The trains work on an honour fair system. You buy your tickets from automatic ticket machines at the stations, and occasionally fare inspectors will ask for proof of payment on the trains.
Another guy who answered this posting sugested visiting Toronto. Except for the streetcars, which Montreal does not have, I do not believe Toronto's transit system is better than Montreal's. Both have their good and bad points.
As far as the two cities are concerned, Montreal is the far better tourist destination. The nightlife, women, restaurants and attractions beat Toronto by a mile. Montreal is a smaller city, and this means eveything is very close together. No wasting time with cabs or transit like in Toronto. Toronto is still a very uptight, conservative city, and the people only think about work. Montreal is far more laid back, and the Francophones know how to have a good time. They make Montreal special. Toronto is like a clean, whitewashed American city, while Montreal is more European. Dont' listen to what anyone says, Montreal rules! Downtown, most people speak English, so don't worry about the language.
Firstly, if you think that riding transit in Toronto is "wasting time", you shouldn't even be posting on this board. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a board like this supposed to be for people INTERESTED IN TRANSIT?? I realize that you were comparing the "compactness" of Montreal's tourist district to Toronto, I take offense to that line about "wasting time". It's true that Montreal is more European, however overall, I feel that Toronto is way more "cosmopolitan" or diverse. In Toronto, just on Yonge Street alone, you see people of many different nationalities. There are 2 or 3 Chinatowns, there is a large Italian disrtict on St.Clair Ave, there's a big Portugese section on Queen St West, etc. All I see in Montreal are a bunch of angry French people. Also, there are other things in life besides tourist destinations and partying. Montreal may be a better place to visit for those aspects, but Toronto is the better place overall for "Quality of Life" issues. In the final analysis, if you want to do nothing but get drunk and ride claustrophobic rail cars breathing in the stench of burnt rubber, by all means head to Montreal. If you want a city with real subway cars, streetcars, and interesting buses, along with enough diversity to keep you busy, without the "tension" of the "Country of Quebec", check out Toronto.
I agree that Toronto is an excellent place for a transit fan. They have a very diverse fleet of subways, streetcars, light rail and buses. As a transit fan, I'd go to Toronto over Montreal anyday.
However, just as all subway fans should ride the New York subway at least once, I think the same should go for the Montreal Metro. The Metro is an interesting system with beautiful stations and unique trains, so I would advise a trip there to anyone. What would be best is if you try to include both cities in your trip!
I agree that subway fans should visit Montreal at least once, and I did include both Toronto and Montreal on a couple of my visits. However, after validating both cities, Toronto was my choice for transit and just about everything else. And even though I hate New York just as much as the next guy, I do think that subway fans should ride the New York Subway more than just once. There is too much to see and experience in just one trip.
Gentlemen: thank you for most of your responses, but it was disturbing to see some negative posts that expressed opinions about New York, Toronto, and Montreal that really have no place on this board. I don't want to debate the merits of Toronto and Montreal as cities; I've been to both and can say that both are wonderful tourist destinations. Montreal's European flavor makes it unique in North America; Toronto's culture is certainly more Anglo but still very diverse. That's not the point. I just wanted to know about the Montreal fare structure. And the comment "I hate New York just as much as the next guy" is really uncalled for. Where are all those "next guys"? You've insulted me and the many other lifelong New Yaawkaahs who populate this board. Especially if you're a transit fan, how can you hate New York?
I just want to go on the record as saying I don't hate New York!!! I personally dislike Montreal after living there for a long time, but I love New York City!!! It's a shame I've only been there once... I'm definitely going to go again as soon as I can... I didn't get to explore the subway as much as I would have liked to last time because I went with car lovers.
Despite what I think about the city, I think you're going to have a good time exploring the Montreal Metro, it really is an interesting system. Try to do the whole system if possible... it shouldn't take more than a few hours as it isn't a huge system like New York.
Just a note on some stations that I think you should see:
Place-des Arts on the Green Line (that wonderful blue!!)
Champ de Mars on the Orange Line (Lots of stained glass at fare control)
Lionel Groulx on the Green and Orange Lines
Angrignon on the Green Line (about as outside as you can get on the Metro!)
Jean Talon on the Blue and Orange Lines (somewhere in that station there's some of the rock they had to dig through exposed through the wall as a display)
Berri-UQAM on the Orange, Green and Yellow Lines (most complex in the system)
All the stations are nice, but those are my favorites.
I'm curious to know why you do not like Montreal. I have lived in Montreal nearly all my life and I love it.
Basically, it's in the wrong province.
I'm sick of the whole Quebec separation thing. I hate the fact that I get dirty looks if I so much as talk French with an English accent (true, not the case downtown and points west, but very much the case in almost every northern, eastern and southern suburb). I hate that you're not allowed to post a sign in English, unless you post it double the size in French.
I find the city is going downhill compared to other Canadian cities. It's not the fault of Montreal itself, but rather the province it's in. It seems every time I go back to visit friends something else has closed down. I never noticed it that much when I lived there, but I really notice it now that I live in Ottawa. Most of the major corporate headquarters that are now in Toronto used to be in Montreal. I've noticed many stores closing down. There's all kinds of wasted shopping space downtown, like the old Simpsons and Eatons (and keep in mind Eatons reopened in Ottawa and Toronto). Had it been any other Canadian city, that space would have filled up within weeks.
I'm not the only one who feels this way. Most of my friends have either left or have plans to leave for precisely the same reasons. I just had two of them over here in Ottawa this summer... they were so impressed at seeing an apostrophe before an "s" on the signs (something that isn't allowed in Montreal).
Maybe you don't mind these things that much, which is good because Montreal is otherwise a great city. But having my mother tongue trounced upon day after day was too much for me, my parents (who lived there over fifty years before moving just outside Ottawa), and a lot of people I know from there.
The government better drop the language law/separation thing fast or they'll find Montreal will quickly become a ghost town.
It's like I keep saying to everyone... if it were possible for them to lift the entire island out of the St. Lawrence River and plunk it in Lake Ontario, I'd likely move back.
I'm really annoyed. I just spent 20 minutes answering your post, and then, minutes before I was done, I lost my internet connection and the message. I'm so annoyed. I'm not going to rewrite the message, but let's just say that Montreal's economy is recovering, the Simpson's building is full, the Eaton's building will have a new tenent next year, I hang out in the French East End a great deal and no one has ever given me grief over the fact I speak French with a heavy English accent (some French women even find it cute), the language situation is annoying and bill 101 is disgusting, but the other benefits of Montreal far outweigh the problems. I will conceed that there is a brain-drain in Montreal because the local economy can only offer well-paying professional jobs in a few fields, but the corporate head offices left 20 year ago and the local economy is starting to adjust. Many Anglos who left (a) were transferred, (b) couldn't find work in their chosen profession, or (c) just couldn't bother to learn any French (and if you live in Quebec, you have to speak French, just like you have to speak German to live in Deutschland). Lastly, Montreal will never be a ghost town. Five years ago things were bleak, but the economy has picked up and the empty stores you refer to are slowly becoming a thing of the past. You need only walk along St. Catherine between Atwater and Crescent (once a ghastly no man's land) to how things are picking up.
Now I'm going to stop writting, lest I get booted off the 'Net again.
First of all, I would like to say that my comment about "Hating New York Just As Much As The Next Guy" was mostly tounge in cheeck, a lot of out of towners hate New York because of the dirt, crime, traffic, rough neighborhoods, etc. Prior to the World Trade Center Tragedy, it was almost "fashionable" to bash New York City.
As far as insulting you and other life long New Yorkers, I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I lived in Brooklyn for the first 40 years of my life, and I did not own a car until I was 38 years old, And I got one only because my new job basically required that I get one. I rode subways and buses exclusively from high school until I got that car. So, for over 20 years I transversed all 5 boroughs, traveling through all kinds of neighborhoods to go from Point A to Point B, by bus and subway only. The South Bronx, East New York, Brownsville, Williamsburgh, Washington Heights, South Jamaica, you name it, I've been through each area by bus and/or subway many times. I didn't just travel to the relative "safety" of Midtown Manhattan and then promptly return home. If anyone is qualified to make judgements regarding New York, it certainly is me. I've experienced REAL New York throughout my lifetime.
And by the way, if you read carefully,in my previous post I did say that subway fans should ride the New York Subways more than once. I never bad mouthed New York's Transit. Only the city itself.
i rode the the the Metro of montreal. in 1991 1994 and 1996. the stations are nice and big. its like entering another world after the other. my most favorite station is Lionel Groulx. very futeristic. reminds me of total recall. the other stations aren't so interesting. Plamondon is kind of boring but it is ok. Champ De Mars reminds me of 21st Street Queens Bridge. Cote St. Catherine is the least interesting. I wasn't Impressed with their fleet of cars, they seem boring and they run on fans so they aren't a pleasure to ride in the summer time. however they don't lose their speed running uphill.
Yeah, those Metros actually get really hot in the summer. There is no air conditioning whatsoever. Even the buses aren't air conditioned!! The Metro cars are neat looking, but there are only two models on the entire system, and you always know which one you're going to get. The green line has all of one type and the three other lines have all of the other type.
That's what I like about Toronto and NYC... there are usually more than one model of train running on a single line, so it makes the ride a little more interesting because you don't necessarily know what model your going to get.
yeah that is true. but since STCUM got the the new Nova Bus LFS, they have now experiences a/c.
You would think so wouldn't you? But no, this is the STCUM we're talking about, they didn't get the A/C option on their LFS's. It looks like an air conditioner on the roof, but really I have no idea what it is because it isn't air conditioning. And those buses are murder on a hot day!!
oh wow, i thought they would have. the last time in the winter it looked like a/c. i guess they still haven't installed a/c because of people complaining about it or something like that. something my who lives in Cote De Nieges told me.
The variety of cars in Toronto won't be for too much longer. They have forged ahead with the new T-1 car and they are coming in at a quick pace. So get up there and shoot the remaining Hawker-Siddley cars.
From my recollections, last time I was in Montreal, there was a third model car being introduced, similar to the others but recognizable as a new car. The Metro cars do not lose power on the climb as do the Toronto cars; never really fast in my opinion. Our R68 would be right at home there.
As New Yorkers have a "bad rap" for being cold and distant, so do the Montrealers (sp). But they are warmer to Americans than to anglo-Canadians. Wear a Yankee's shirt or another New York-ism; you'll get better results.
And remember: whichever place you visit, it is a place you have never been to before, so enjoy it.
joe c.
The T1s are not coming at a quick pace anymore. The order's nearly finished and there are a couple more cars to arrive and that's it for the T1s.
In Toronto, when the T1s finish arriving, there will be:
Sheppard (Opening 2002) - T1.
Yonge-University-Spadina - T1, H5
Bloor - Danforth - T1, H6, H4
That isn't a bad variety of cars given the size of the system and how large the last three subway car orders have been, but it certainly is a far cry from what it was around 1988.
-Robert King
I agree. And unfortunately the latest H's are virtually alike. They don't have the moldings the early cars had; they nearly look like the M's. Still, like I said, either place is great to visit, especially for a first-timer.
Joe c
The H5s do look like M cars on the end; the M cars did have the ribbed aluminum below the windows continue around onto the ends of the cars unlike all the others that were flat. H6s and T1s have the squashed half-hexagon with the recessed rectangles for the marker lights on the ends rather than the smooth M1/H5 curve but they certainly don't have the style of the angled windows or eyebrows around the destination sign and marker lights of the H1-4s. Luckily about 40 H4s are being rebuilt to last a while. I expect that there won't be an order of 40 cars to replace them when the time comes, but they'll be the first to go when the replacement cars for the H5s begin arriving (assuming they don't get rid of the H5s first, which appears to be well within the realm of the possible).
-Robert King
The H5s do look like M cars on the end; the M cars did have the ribbed aluminum below the windows continue around onto the ends of the cars unlike all the others that were flat. H6s and T1s have the squashed half-hexagon with the recessed rectangles for the marker lights on the ends rather than the smooth M1/H5 curve but they certainly don't have the style of the angled windows or eyebrows around the destination sign and marker lights of the H1-4s. Luckily about 40 H4s are being rebuilt to last a while. I expect that there won't be an order of 40 cars to replace them when the time comes, but they'll be the first to go when the replacement cars for the H5s begin arriving (assuming they don't get rid of the H6s first, which appears to be well within the realm of the possible).
-Robert King
Why would they get rid of the H6's? They seem to be in good enough shape, just as good as the H5's. Is there some kind of mechanical problem or something with them that I don't know about?
I hope they never get rid of the H5's... I just can't get enough of that regenerative braking buzz when it starts and stops!!!
The H5s had the standard new technology learning curves and bugs when they were new because they were the first production run of chopper control subway cars built by Hawker-Siddeley and the first real series of chopper control subway cars for the TTC to maintain. Once the bugs were ironed out they became very good cars.
Then, on the other hand you have the H6s. The specifications for them were issued by the TTC in 1981 and that's when everything started. The TTC's specifications called for essentially the same thing as an H5 but with a slightly more powerful air conditioning system and a few other requested changes. It shouldn't have been too hard for UTDC to design the cars and Hawker-Siddeley to build the things and do it all very well given the experience gained on part of the TTC, Hawker-Siddeley and shared with UTDC.
UTDC turned everything upside down when they designed the subway cars ignoring everything learned from the H5 project about producing quality functional subway cars with solid state DC to DC chopper control. UTDC wanted to try out competitors' equipment on the H6s to see how well it would work and consequently the trucks came from other manufacturers, all of the traction equipment with the exception of the control stands in the cabs came from other manufacturers, the climate control equipment came from other manufacturers. And all of it was unproven and UTDC was playing Dr. Frankenstein with it on a whole TTC subway car order because they could get away with it. (The political situation at the time handed UTDC a lot of power; at some point during this time the TTC was forced to sign a document agreeing to purchase equipment from UTDC only.)
When H6s started coming off the UTDC assembly line (by now they had bought Hawker-Siddeley's manufacturing facilities in Thunder Bay), it was discovered that they had a lot of problems and the cars were delayed coming into service in Toronto. By that point it was around 1986 or so and I was aware enough of what was going on in the subway that I'd heard of these new cars and that they had a lot of problems. The good news was that the Gloucsters were going to have to be kept running untill the problems got solved. By 1987 the H6s were slowly beginning to enter service with most of the severe bugs (control systems freezing up, unexpected emergency brake activation etc.) worked out and the in-service Gloucster fleet started shrinking noticibly. It still took a long time to get a new unit of H6 cars that just arrived from Thunder Bay running satisfactoily enough that the retirement of the Gloucsters took place gradually over 1987-90 with the last H6 entering service and the last train of Gloucsters being retired around this time in 1990, nine years after the H6 project started in 1981.
The H6s are still not as reliable as the other subway cars the TTC has, they don't drive well so most operators dislike them (think of trying to precision fly a train with the responsiveness of a high speed marshmellow down the tracks), and then there were the trucks cracking. The trucks on the H6s were replaced with new trucks of a different design and now the cars shudder horribly 9 out of 10 times during the final stages of braking. The quality over all of construction just wasn't very good and the wear and tear of use is really showing after 15 years at most of service as a result. The H5s fared substantially better when they were 15 years old and that was before they got rebuilt.
In short, the H6s are such horrible subway cars that some people in the TTC look like they'd rather get rid as soon as possible while keeping the H5s around because there aren't any compelling reasons to retire them first.
-Robert King
Hi, thanx for all that info on TTC; you sure know your stuff. Question: a fleet of cars came in ith black front ends. What was that set and what happened to the black fronts? I like your description of the "eye brows", etc on the H series cars.
Joe C
The H5's came in with the black fronts. The TTC painted them grey because they were worried that black ended trains wouldn't be visible enough to the tunnel maintenance crews.
Dear 5301 Fishbowl:
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Then you realize that I was not insulting the TTC. I believe you may have gotten a little bit too carried away in your message seeing as how you did claim to understand the meaning behind my comment, which was not at all aimed as an attack against the TTC or transit riding. I would actually agree that from a transit buff's perspective, Toronto has more variety with respect to equipment. I quite enjoyed seeing the old fishbowls and streetcars when I was last there in May.
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Again, I wasn't criticizing the notion of riding public transit for the sake of riding public transit alone, and you recognize that, so why do you appear to take great offense? And, who do you presume to be to tell me where I should or should not be posting messages?
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Then you clearly have not seen very much of Montreal, have you? I am an anglophone who has lived in Montreal for most of my life, and I can tell you that the Quebecois are a good natured, high-spirited people. I would not call them angry.
Dear 5301 Fishbowl:
"I realize that you were comparing the "compactness" of Montreal's tourist district to Toronto, I take offense to that line about "wasting time"."
Then you realize that I was not insulting the TTC. I believe you may have gotten a little bit too carried away in your message seeing as how you did claim to understand the meaning behind my comment, which was not at all aimed as an attack against the TTC or transit riding. I would actually agree that from a transit buff's perspective, Toronto has more variety with respect to equipment. I quite enjoyed seeing the old fishbowls and streetcars when I was last there in May.
"Firstly, if you think that riding transit in Toronto is "wasting time", you shouldn't even be posting on this board."
Again, I wasn't criticizing the notion of riding public transit for the sake of riding public transit alone, and you recognize that, so why do you appear to take great offense? And, who do you presume to be to tell me where I should or should not be posting messages?
"All I see in Montreal are a bunch of angry French people."
Then you clearly have not seen very much of Montreal, have you? I am an anglophone who has lived in Montreal for most of my life, and I can tell you that the Quebecois are a good natured, high-spirited people. I would not call them angry.
Please refer to the post by Greg N. from 22:54:48 on October 14th for my response to the last line about angry French people. Anyway, even though I live in New Jersey, I have been to Toronto and Monteral enough times to make an educated comparison. And I never just stayed in the tourist sections either. In Monteral I rode Laval Transit, Rive Sud Transit, rode up and down Decarie Blvd countless times, all things a tourist wouldn't even consider. In Toronto, I used to spend hours at Humber Loop, Yonge and Finch, Queensway & Roncesvalles, and out to Square One in Missisaugua, and countless other "out of the way" places to experience life up there as well as photographing transit. It's always been my philosophy that as a visitor, you do not learn anything about a city by just hanging out at Downtown Tourist destinations. All you see there are other tourists! When I visit a city I want to see how the locals live. And because of that I think I am more qualified to make judgements than somebody who spends their whole trip on Ste. Catherines Street or on Yonge and Dundas.
Your exact words: "No wasting time with cabs or transit like in Toronto". To me, that is wriiten like you consider it a "hardship" to ride transit. All you had to say was "It's an easy walking distance between downtown clubs" or something of that nature. By wording it the way you did, it can be interpereted as being "anti-transit", which,as far as I can tell, doesn't look right on a board frequented by people who like transit. That's all I was trying to say.
Okay, I conceed your point that my comment about "wasting time" could be misinterpreted. However, I am glad that you were able to actually read it for what it really meant and point out the potential for confusion. I do agree with your approach to visiting cities. I too like to stay away from the tourist zones and get to the guts of a city, and I have been able to do that in Toronto. My friends in T.O. stay off the 'main track' and I have been able to experience Toronto life from the local perspective. I firmly believe that you can only understand your own surroundings by doing comparisons with other locales. When I visited NJ and NYC in the summer, I went out of my way to talk to the locals. Very interesting people...
Believe me, I don't consider it a hardship to ride PT. Every day in Montreal I ride two buses and one metro line to get to work. In NJ visiting my buddy this past summer, I rode NJ Transit (Netcong-Hoboken) and PATH to get to Manhatten, and I loved it!
Peace and harmony at last!!!!
Toronto is still a very uptight,
conservative city, and the people only think about work.
Where in Toronto did you go? King and Bay Sts. for the whole time?
-Robert King
What I saw of Toronto, besides the subway which I loved, looked like adynamic and thriving city, and what an American city would be like if we hadn't decided to let our cities rot after World War II.
In fairness to Montreal, I rode its subway, too, and found a lot to like there as well. But my subway pictures didn't come out as good as they did in Toronto. :(
Mark
Dear Mr. King,
I have spent time with friends who live near Yonge and Eglington, in the beaches, in Etobicoke, and in the neighbourhoods around U of T. Most of my friends in T.O. have lived in both Montreal and Toronto, with some born in Toronto and others born in Montreal. They are the ones who have told me about Toronto's 'work, work, work', superficial culture, and I have seen this in my visits to Toronto.
Let's take this one by one.
U of T - I assume you mean the St. George campus? The culture there is much more than just 'work work work' although there is quite a bit of that because it comes with the territory, U of T being a university and the crowd of people around the place being students. You should take a look at the York University campus the next time you're in Toronto and then reevaluate U of T.
Etobicoke. I'm rarely in the place but I'd have to say it isn't 'work work work' either; it's more 'blaaaaah' vacuumland more than anything else.
The beach. The culture there most definately is not 'work work work'. That's a, a, a downtown thing right?
Yonge & Eglinton. Well, the King & Bay 'work work work' crowd, or at least a good chunk of them, live in the area. They don't do their 'work work work' here because the Yonge & Eglinton is home, not the office at King & Bay.
I think your views of Toronto are just a little skewed.
-Robert King
Many Montrealers tend to have that view of Toronto. Heck, I had that same view when I was a Montrealer!! But after many visits to Toronto, plus 4 years of living on neutral ground here in Ottawa, I'd have to say it's different from Montreal, but just as interesting.
But the Montreal-Toronto rivalry will continue as long as both cities exist!!
While visiting Montreal, you might also want to take a two-hour drive (or Via Train ride) to Ottawa to ride our new light rail line, operated with the Bombardier Talent trains. Current word from OC Transpo is that it'll open this Monday, October 15 at 3:00PM starting from Carleton University station. More info at http://www.octranspo.com
As for Montreal, I usually use the day pass when I visit. That's valid on all STCUM buses and metros, as well as the Montreal/Deux Montagnes commuter train up to Bois-Franc station, and the Montreal/Rigaud commuter train up to Dorval station.
Just practice your French. There are people who will speak English to you, but most people there will answer you in French just out of spite because they hate English people. I find this to especially be true of STCUM employees. That's why I moved to Ottawa after being born and raised in Montreal for 20 years.
Hi all,
Read about it at (cut and paste)
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_843573,00.html
In my case (and Steve B.) our nearest trains would be C or D trains!
Cheers,
Michael Adler
Highlands Ranch, Colorado
Our webmaster asked if we'll fight.
My response is: Yes, put the map back, and I will pledge at least $1,000.00 for your legal defense, if it comes to that.
George H. Foelschow
You guys are making a mountain out of a molehill. He only REQUESTED the map's removal; he didn't mandate it or threaten reasonable action. I think it's a reasonable request in light of present terrorist concerns, but I don't think they have any legal ground on which to sue y'all. Not worth shitting rocks about.
Chris
This site is CERTAINLY worth shi*ting rocks about.
A-Men.
Yeah, this SITE is worth "shitting rocks about," I'm with you there. But not some silly map. Post it or don't post it, they can't do anything. Not worth wasting allt his bandwidth discussing it!
Chris
I saw some old b/w photos of the abandoned stations east of Port Jeff. They are: Rocky Point, Shoreham, Miller's Place and Wading River. Here's what I have learned:
1. The last train to Wading River ran on October 9, 1938.
2. The pictures show that the line was double tracked.
3. The LIRR was still using steam power in the 1950s.
I also saw a picture of the Medford Station circa 1907. The picture shows that the line was double tracked. There was a picture of a Camp Upton Station in Yaphank, probably on the Greenport Branch. The rest of the pictures were of the Port Jeff Station circa 1952 and the Setauket Station during a blizzard in the 1950s. But I still don't know why was Wading River et al closed down.
There wasn't enough traffic beyond Port Jeff to support the branch.
Here's some additional information:
Wading River Branch
Thank you!!
I also saw a picture of the Medford Station circa 1907. The picture shows that the line was double tracked.
The bridge over Route 112 immediately to the west of Medford station is wide enough to support two tracks. It appears to be of relatively recent construction, probably post-dating the end of double-track service.
I asked the conductor of a Greenort shuttle one day if the line was ever double tracked. He said no. I disagreed, but I let it go. I looked at the bridge and there is evidence that the line was indeed double tracked. Why it became single track I don't know.
The Bob Emery maps show that the second track was actually a passing siding that extended from about 1/4 mile west of Rte. 112 to about 1/2 mile east of there.
Does anyone else have this book by John Henderson?
Please note the right hand picture on pg 54!
It would appear as if there are three people (a man and two very attractive women) precariously perched on the outside of a LO-V on a 1965 museum special.
They seem to be sitting on the edge of the anticlimber with their legs hanging down in front of the coupler.
It's difficult to believe that the TA would permit this even on a train that was standing still. It really looks unsafe!
Interesting. I hadn't looked at the book in a while and didn't remember the picture... you're absolutely right, it seems VERY dumb! Maybe it was all the beer :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Perhaps it's because I'm acrophobic, but I get half sick just looking at that picture.
You have to remember that in 1965 the MTA had not yet been created and as such you didn't have the paranoid lawayers that came with that creation. Lots of things that we would not even think of doing today were done back then. If you ever see a picture of the opening of the Rockaway line form back in the mid-50's you will see then TA Chairman Patterson standing behind some children in an open storm door of a subway car (an R16 I think).
Yep, It was an R-16. I know the picture.
These people on the LO/V seem to be in a lot more precarious position though. With their legs stretched down like that, they can't have much more than the fatty part of their butts on the very edge of the top of the anti-climber.
I assume that none of them fell though, or we probably wouldn't have the Museum trains today.
Does anyone know IF and WHERE the MTA stages extra B, D and 4 trains to assist with the crowds out of Yankee Stadium? The #7 does it at shea all the time, from shea stadium you can see about three redbird trains form up on the center track, waiting for the mets game to end.
When I was at the last regular season home game takin the 4 back to the city it came in city-bound empty making me believe that it was run lite from the yard. Then the second one to come right behind it was a regular schedule train.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
There is a relay between 167 and 170 on The Concourse line. They can put One D train in there. They also use the center track north of the switch just south of 170.
As a point of reference, there are no more D "baseball specials" for the duration of the bridge flip.
Peace,
ANDEE
IDK about the D train, but the #4 "baseball specials" are layed on M track from 167St on up......
There was a story on 1010 WINS today about an R train during Sept. 11th who apparently saved a lot of lives. The story is that people were getting out at Courtland St. just as one of the buildings was about to collapse. When they heard the noises upstairs, he ordered everyone to get back on the train and he drove away fast. Today a woman thanked him publicly.
----Andrew
Wait a minute I thought all service was suspended from the area when the towers first got hit? Well if it's true then a big word of thanks is in order to the crew for hightailing it outta there, saving many lives.
I believe service wasn't suspended but trains were intially bypassing the affected stations. it probably wasn't till around 9:30-10:00am that service was stopped entirely.
That story sounds a bit fishy to me.
There was a story on 1010 WINS today about an R train during Sept. 11th who apparently saved a lot of lives. The story is that people were getting out at Courtland St. just as one of the buildings was about to collapse. When they heard the noises upstairs, he ordered everyone to get back on the train and he drove away fast. Today a woman thanked him publicly.
It's an inspiring story, but would be even better if it were true.
Both of the towers collapsed in a matter of seconds. Even if the T/O knew what the sound was - a very dubious proposition - the tower would've been down before he were able to react.
Fishy or not, the woman thanked him publicly.
The TOs name was Irrizarry, I believe.
>Irizarry
Had to have a first name to go with that.
I have read abt the terrific former NY Bound Book store at Rockefeller Plaza. It had books about NYC, as well as NYC transit and old street maps.
Which Subtalkers have been there? Can you tell me about the store? When did it close?
Sounds like it was a paradise for anyone interested in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If I ever make any money with my research, or a Forgotten book, I might reopen it.
I remember the store closed down because the building was being rebuilt. I don't know if it ever reopened. If it did, I'll be there on payday!
I remember that store at 50 Rockefeller Plaza. It was owned and operated by 2 ladies (whose names I do not remember. There were a couple of articles written about the store. If I can ever remember where I put a copy of them I will let you know.
It closed in the mid 1990's. It was not a very big store as far as square feet goes (as a comparison it was smaller than the current TM store in Grand Central) but the selection of books more than made up for it. They had old NY related books that went back to the 1800's. These were kept in a case behind doors with glass windows. They had some other items, Posters, postcards even a couple of videos but the main focus was books on NY.
They had transit related days on occasion. Whenever a new subway book would come out they would hold a book signing. Imagine, if you will, a load of railfans crowded into a small store to hear Stan Fischler, Brian Cudahy and John Gellar talk about their books. It was there that many of us got a preview of the book "By the El". For a while they made a big thing of the draw they had for NYC subway buffs, in one of the display windows they would always have all the subway books available plus destination signs and a few posters.
One thing that always stood out in my mind was they had one copy of the IRT book put out by the IRT in 1904. It was an original. I would have bought it but at $325 that was a bit pricy.
All in all, it was a fun place to visit. I do miss it but as far as Subway books go, thankfully, the Barnes and Noble as well as the Transit Museum have helped fill the gap.
That is all I can think of at the moment.
If anyone else can provide more information - please do.
The spirit of NY Bound lives on, in part, in a series of lectures and workshops being put on this fall at Urban Center Books, in collaboration with the proprietors of NY Bound. The series kicked off on September 22 with "The Subway Century," a panel discussion moderated by Stan Fischler and featuring Joe Cunningham, John Henderson, Larry van Gelder of the New York Times, and Matt Kells, producer of Subway Q&A.
Unfortunately, I haven't had time to browse at Urban Center, but given the store's focus on New York, I'd guess that they have a decent transit section.
On a good day, the Urban Center's transit section would fill a three-foot-long shelf.
Where is this store located?
--Mark
457 Madison Avenue, at 51 St. But read Alex's post first... :(
>>>They had transit related days on occasion. Whenever a new subway book would come out they would
hold a book signing. Imagine, if you will, a load of railfans crowded into a small store to hear Stan Fischler,
Brian Cudahy and John Gellar talk about their books.<<<<
I've been lucky enough to snag a lot of pictures for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
before the sites were gone for good, but I missed the boat on NY Bound Books. What a tragedy it closed....
I first discovered New York Bound in the summer of 1996. Whenever I had a chance, I went there until it closed in the summer of 1997. They had a lot of great books about New York there. Let's see, I got Westchester's Forgotten Railway, Brooklyn Trolleys, Subway Cars of the BMT and the wirebound historical New York map book there. What a shame that New York Bound had to close. It was my favorite bookstore. I learned a lot about the New York City subway and rail systems from the books I read and bought there.
I remember a similar store in Greenwich Village on Carmine St, but I don't recall the name. It closed sometime in the early/mid 1990's.
Bob Sklar
Looks like a model.
Great pics Salaam!
Thanks for giving the WTC back to us for a few seconds, anyway.
Not quite Grrl, those pics were taken in Los Angeles.
Where the World Trade Center is alive and well.
http://www.wtcanet.org/
NIce but save some of these bad ass shots for later; there will be a nycsubway.org photo contest held in November in time for prizes to be sent by the December holidays...
Sounds good. Are there going to be any out-of-town and heavy rail categories?
-Robert King
thank you ! actually that is my warm up shot the best is yet to come !!............
Two things, Salaam-
First, I haven't been checking the board daily, so I don't know if it's been said; as much as I and many others disagre with you much of the time, I hope that you are not experiencing any difficulty in your daily life.
Second, that is indeed a bad-ass shot. NICE!
-Hank
now remember its what people do that counts..... Example check out this classic pacific electric blimp car PE-418..
Sallamallah, I been on the disagreement with you before, but the shots you have been posting are "the cat's meow".
Keep the best for the contest.
As a note, doesn't 314 need a new coat.
now remember its what people do that counts..... Example check out this classic pacific electric blimp car PE-314
hank in fact i am quite worried my son is in the army about to be shipped to germany right now .........(sigh) .......
below is a bridge photo i took last fall where the pasadena blue line is being built !!
Here's hoping your son comes back unscratched when this is all over. I know what it's like to worry about loved ones in harm's way. My prayers are with you and with him.
bless you ..........:)
thanks .......
Salaam,
Real nice shot !
also a nice BADASS backhoe !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Dear Transit Museum Fans,
On Monday, Oct. 15, the NY Transit Museum at Grand Central is opening
an exhibit on the London Underground. The Brooklyn location for the
Museum is closing for 2 years of renovation, so this is it, folks!
Sales at the Gift Shop go to support our favorite museum, so keep that
in mind.
Also, those sales have slowed since people are hinky about lingering
at Grand Central. So, do your part, and visit this wonderful little
off-shoot of the museum that wouldn't have existed without some of
you railfans!
The TM in Brooklyn closed in September. The renovation is expected to take 15 months, not 2 years. But since it took almost 2 years for them to get this project started in the first place your statement could wind up being correct.
For those who will want to attend the opening reception (assuming there is one and it will be before 10/15), this is usually open to invitees only. Museum members should be getting something in the mail (I await mine).
Is there a calendar of events coming out this Fall?
--Mark
Good question. I don't have an answer at the moment but if there is one it will be even more limited than it was before.
Yesterday's Rocky Mountain News carried an article on RTD's decision to adopt colors and letters on light rail as more routes open in the future. Right now, there's no need for any of that, since all we have is one route. But when the Central Platte Valley Spur opens next April, an easy means of distinguishing what will be two different routes will be needed.
Here's what they've come up with:
Route C - Orange - Mineral to Union Station via Central Platte Valley Spur. (C for Central?)
Route D - Green - Mineral to 30th Ave. or 18th St. Follows original route to downtown Denver. (D for Downtown?)
Now, someone is bound to ask, what about A and B? As Nixon used to say, "I'm glad you asked that question."
A has been set aside for a proposed diesel-electric route to Denver International Airport. No color yet. (A for Airport)
B is reserved for a proposed Denver-to-Boulder diesel-electric route. No color yet. (B for Boulder)
I can only speculate on what they're going to come up with for designations once the Southeast Corridor opens in 5 years. E for Elitch's, perhaps? As for the West Corridor, G for Golden would make sense.
The new spur line is coming along. Track has been put down where the line runs alongside the Consolidated Freight corridor.
Here's a footnote: there just happens to be a town northeast of Denver called Brighton. I'm not making this up. While there are no current plans to run a light rail line out to Brighton, you never know. Maybe they just might designate such a route as the Q.:-)
They maybe could build a pond of man made lake out there and Call it Brighton Beach
Sorry to disappoint Fred, but there isn't anything resembling a Sea Beach out here.:-(
Yeh I know, I just suggested to build a Man made Beach in Brighton and call it Brighton Beach. Does anyone know of other places called Brighton excluding Colorado, England Victoria Australia and BROOKLYN
Boston, MA comes to my mind. Must be others, too
Does the Blue Line go there in Boston?
My mom grew up in a Chicago neighborhood called Brighton Park.
Mark
Any L Service to Brighton Park? So far no SEA BEACHES, ha ha ha Fred
Yep, the Orange Line to Midway Airport stops in Brighton Park. The Pulaski, Kedzie, and Western stations are in teh area.
Mark
Brighton Park was a big Lithuanian neighborhood in Chicago, both for the old turn-of-the-century generation and postwar DPs. Immaculate Conception was their parish. IIRC Brighton Park is almost directly west of Bridgeport.
Yeah, that's whay my mom tells me. She still has some Lithuanian friends from those days.
Mark
I'm not sure how many are left in Brighton Park. Marquette Park was almost all-Lithuanian at one time, but not anymore. Nor are Bridgeport or Town of Lake. A lot of Lithuanians have settled in Lemont now.
Wouldn't it be better to go to numbers and use the resistor color code? That way, they would use an international standard. :-)
Our bus routes are numbered. For the most part, the numbers correspond to the block number in Denver's grid system. For example, University Boulevard, which I live right off of, is 2400 E. The bus line that runs along that street is Route 24. This is adhered to whenever possible.
Yet another light rail update: catenary poles are now being installed along the new spur line. The existing line bewteen I-25/Broadway and 14th St. downtown will be shut down for three weekends for trackwork at the spot where the spur line joins the existing line. The first closure is this upcoming weekend, so I'm going to check it out if I have a chance. I'm beginning to think they just might put that unused downtown loop turnout to use so trains from 30th Ave. can loop back at 14th St. Our LRVs already have "14th Street" signs. My camera will be with me. The next two planned shutdowns are next month.
Our bus routes are numbered.
Are you suggesting that Denver residents would have a hard time distinguishing between an LRV and a bus, if both used numbered routes? :-)
Not at all.
Only Steve
If they do use that turnout, it'll answer another question I've had ever since the original line opened 7 years ago. The turnout in question is directly adjacent to the ADA boarding ramp at 14th and Stout, the southbound 14th St. stop. If it's set for diverging, the front truck of the train will be curving away from the ramp. I have a hunch that trains will stop only at the northbound 14th St. stop, which is around the corner.
I will definitely want to get a picture of a southbound train making the turn from Stout St. to 14th St. That would be a first. Not to mention a picture of a train signed up for 14th Street.
Saw R-32 "E" this am, signed Canal Street
Manhattan
on the bottom roll
And this is news?
R-32s (even R38s) have that on their southern destination roll signs.
Since the last passenger stop on the E is Canal St then the signs are correct.
Interesting though that that destination is on the roll, since it wasn't a common terminus in the past.
Not really. It was always a common terminus for selected N and R trains on the Broadway line during rush hours.
It was also the south terminus of the weekend J for a few years beginning in 1990, before it was extended one stop to Chambers. (The J doesn't run R-32's but it could.)
The old 14, later the JJ, terminated there during rush hours.
FYI The route letter, starting terminal, and destination terminal are all on separate rolls. You can have any combination of routes and destinations.
Yes, I've noticed; but I wasn't aware of any route that ever terminated at Canal Street on a regular basis. (Obviously, I was wrong.) Not every station in the system is on the roll.
Is Kew Gardens a regular terminus for trains? Yet, it is on the roll.
Did it say Canal Street/8 Avenue? The J terminated at Canal for some time...
The signs say "Canal Street Manhattan". Previous versions jusr read "Canal Street".
Is Essex Street on any north or south roll sign ?
Hey the R-32/38/68/68As ALL have 167th Street on them as a north terminal. I believe the reasoning behind this is that ANY station that can potentially be used as a terminus station be included...IMHO...
Peace,
ANDEE
There's a layup track north of 167/Concourse. That's why it's listed.
Today I was an E that just said E-8th ave on the digital side sign. Mostly R46 E's, and lots of R32's on the circle Q. I rode an R68 diamond Q today. Also rode an R68 (not an A) on the W.
What is the difference between a ALP-44 and a AEM-7?
They both look similar. Are they just different names for the same locomotive?
I think they are the same locomotive. Same as long Island Railroad calling the F59s DE30s. Amtrak has those same locomotives and they are called F59. Personally i call the DE30s F59s. Cause DE30 is too corny
The trouble is, they're not all the same.
The ALP-44 differs slightly from the AEM-7 in it's carbody design, and, more importantly, the use of microprocessor systems that the AEM-7 doesn't have.
As for the F-59 and DE-30, they're totally different from each other. The F-59, for starters, is DC traction, and I don't think runs on radial trucks. The DE is much closer to the DM, than anything else.
The upcomming ALP-46 locomotives are effectively Americanized versions of the German class 101.
EMD's DE/DM30 is 75 feet long (the same length as the GE Genesis), and runs on A.C. power rather than the conventional D.C. as the F-59PHI. If you look at some pictures, you can clearly see lots of other differences. Look at Railpace Magazines on-line website, and search for both.
Basically, the ALP-44 is an improved version of the AEM7 with a slightly different carbody. The newer ALP-44Ms are under microprocessor control. While Amtrak has AEM7s, NJT has the ALP-44s and the ALP-44M.
My experience with them is that the AEM-7's accelerate a lot better, even the SEPTA ones.
The ALP44 is a newer version of the AEM7. The AEM7 was built by EMD based on the Swedish Railways' RC4 class and has a slightly rounder body. The ALP44 is more angled (I've seen the two side by side) and came directly from ABB (later Adtranz).
As I mentioned briefly elsewhere, nycsubway.org will be holding a Photo Contest, hopefully the 1st Annual such contest.
Submissions will be accepted during the month of November. I'll show you all where to put the images when the time comes. Prizes will be awarded in time for the December holidays.
The categories haven't been finalized yet but I'm leaning toward:
Best New York Subway Photo
Best New York Bus Photo
Best non-New York Rapid Transit Photo
and maybe some other categories like Best Night Photo, and Judge's Choice. Technical points like quality of the composition, quality of the scan, etc, will also be included in the judging.
I'll probably be the only judge which will allow everyone else to compete. That too is yet undecided.
The other rules are:
1. Photos submitted must be the original work of the person making the submission.
2. Photo can appear on the web elsewhere but should not have already been included in a nycsubway.org permanent section (which means if you put a photo on your web site and linked to it in Subtalk it's ok but if you sent it to me and I added it to the site it doesn't qualify)
3. You can submit as many photos as you want but can only win one prize.
4. Photos should be in JPG format, 800x600 (approximately) pixel size.
5. The prizes thus far include some official "Redbird Reef" t shirts and a video of the London Underground. Contribution of prizes and suggestions for judging categories welcome!
So.. .think about your entries starting now. Maybe get some pictures scanned and ready for submission in November. Or go out and take that winning shot today!
-Dave
How about a Commuter Rail category, Dave?
Time to get floppies for the Mavica =)
Dave,
Great idea!
One question - can the photos be from any era?
Just a thought - you may want to consider separate categories for modern and older NYC subway/el photos. I personally would define 'modern' as the mid-80's to the present - i.e., the 'post-graffiti era'.
Jim D.
Thanks, good ideas. Certainly any era is fine as long as it was you that took the picture.
Excellent.
How about a category for stations (with or without trains present)?
Will you be accepting snail-mailed entries? I don't have a scanner of my own. I have borrowed scanners on occasion, so most of my shots from before the summer have been scanned, but everything since is on paper and negative only. I'd like to enter some of my more recent photos. (Snapfish does give me free scanned images, but they're small and low-quality.)
> Will you be accepting snail-mailed entries?
No. Find a friend to do the scanning or visit a Kinko's, etc. Or take the negatives to a photo store and get a photo CD. The reason I annouced it now for entries in November is so people could prepare scans.
Not to mention that the time between now and November is good for having slides printed, for those of us who can scan prints but not slides (now I have an excuse to get a few more slides printed, good).
-Robert King
Okay, that's reasonable. (Anything I don't get scanned in time will be entered in next year's contest, I suppose.)
I'd consider a photo CD, but I believe the scans come in JPEG format. I want to use a lossless format like TIFF for archival purposes so that nothing I publish will have gone through the JPEG compression process more than once. (I also want fine control over the compression process, which I can't get if somebody else is doing it.)
Photo CD images come in a variety of formats on one disc and I'm pretty sure they're uncompressed. You need software capable of displaying .pcd files though...
Thanks for the correction. I'll look into it (for the future if not for now).
Just be sure what you ask for (and what you receive) is a Kodak Photo CD. Check the Kodak web site for specs.
Kodak Photo CDs come with software to read PCD files. For my Sao Paulo pictures, I just used Photoshop 6.
Been a while since you did photoCD, Dave? Kodak now calls it a 'PictureCD', as opposed to their lower-resolution 'PictureDisk'. All pictures are delivered as JPEGs, in high-res, between 400 and 500k, depending on the complexity of the image. I started ordering them because it saves me the difficulty of scanning prints; you get a much better scan from the negative anyway. http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/BRPics/023_21.JPG is an example, right off the disk. Took the pic with a 200mm f/4L on ISO 800 film. My photos from Jets games are just as good.
-Hank
> photoCD,... All pictures are delivered as JPEGs, in high-res,
This is not what a Photo CD was. Are you saying the original product that had the .pcd images is no longer available? I never got one, one way or the other, because the scanning cost from slides was way too high. Cheaper to buy a slide scanner in the long run.
Do you have any recommendations for a good slide scanner? (Is a slide scanner the same thing as a negative scanner?) Once I have an income, a scanner is high on my list of items to spend it on.
The scanner I have (Minolta Quickscan 35) does both 35mm negatives and slides. I think it does a better job with negatives though. I'm thinking about getting a new one that does better with slides. It seems to me that the light element just isn't bright enough to properly illuminate the slide.
BTW, this scanner can do 2820 dpi. Not having looked lately but I think that's still out of the range of most flatbed scanners w/ transparency adaptors.
So when can we start submitting stuff to you for the contest?
Trevor
In November, probably Nov 3. when I get back from my trip.
Well, if you do upgrade to a new scanner, please keep your friendly SubTalkers in mind when deciding how to dispose of your old one.
The HP scanjet 5000 does a very good job with slides, IMO. It can be had for around $150.
Peace,
ANDEE
The CANON CanoScan D660U Flatbed Scanner is a good low cost scanner; about $100+ (prices) this scanner can do negatives, and transparencies up to 2 1/4.
Don't expect professional quality for this price, but it is good for scanning images to post on the web.
Well, it depends on where you go. PhotoCD is intended for commercial/professional use, while the only CD offered to consumers is the PictureCD. It's also more expensive, and since I'm not paid to take pictures. For what I do with the pics, the resolution I am getting is plenty. If I wind up eventually working with a paper that prints full color, I'd probably switch. PhotoCD lets you put pre-existing photos on a CD, PictureCD is time-of-process only. A casual guy would be best to go with the PictureCD, especially if they intend to make more prints off the CD. The quality is MUCH better than some of the ones I've scanned and saved as TIFF images. PictureDisk is screen-res images on a 3.5" disk. Good for email and the web, lousy if you want to print them. Having used both, I'm sticking with the PicCD until I buy a transparancy scanner.
-Hank
Hank, have you had any experience with trying to print from a Picture Disk onto T-shirt transfer paper for obvious use?
Do you think that picture quality would be good enough?
Hi David,
I am more then willing to scan your photos for you at high-res... I have all the equipment for my web design biz...
Lemme know if you are interested..
Allen
Oh GAWD....break down and BUY a scanner...you can get a decent one for less than 100$ american......8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm afraid that if I spend any money on a scanner it will be a decent-quality one -- 1200 x 2400 dpi minimum, ideally a film scanner. Looking at Canon's web site (I realize there are other scanner manufacturers), the cheapest option I'd consider runs $179, and for a film scanner I'm looking $499 and up. Considering that right now I don't have an income, that's about $499 more than I can afford.
(If $100 is meaningless to you, I certainly wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.)
Dave ... I'll supply you some of my videos as prizes. Actually, the way I'll do that is to supply you with some coupons good for free videos, so the winner(s) can decide which ones they want.
As things get a little more finalized, give me an idea of how many you'd like.
--Mark
That will make a very worthy prize. Put me down or any Redbird video you have not already sole me :)
Simon
Dave, if you read this I am medium to large (leaning towrds the medium).
Such confidence! I'm a XL.
-Hank :)
Heck, I'm even more confident... make mine a double-extra-fat!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well. That'll have to be a consideration in awarding the prizes, I have an "L" and an "XL" shirt in the pool.
Now now, gentlepeople, a Snappy and 100 hours of videotape can be a wonderful thing :)
--Mark
Ha! You'll love the "Changing of the Guard" series I now have. 2 tapes with all IRT revenue equipment in action.
--Mark
Is there discount for the boxed set ? :)
Simon
Swindon UK
[I'll probably be the only judge which will allow everyone else to compete. That too is yet undecided.]
Here's my sugggestion: Let everyone be a judge but allow each Subtalker just one vote in each category. Since we are all registered with unique handles, I don't think there could be any "ballot stuffing".
Well, that sounds like a good idea but it means a lot more work to tabulate votes-- and a lot more work to program a way to do it automatically. I'm trying to do this with as little overhead as possible. I'll think about it though.
Since we are all registered with unique handles, I don't think there could be any "ballot stuffing".
Heh. Are you implying that some Chicago SubTalkers (*ahem*) would be inclined to vote the Chicago Way? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds good!
If I may make a suggestion about categories, why not add "Best non-New York electric traction", to allow trolleys etc. from other cities while excluding buses. Presumably it could be added without adding an entire category because electric traction in other cities would obviously include the existing category of "Best Non New York Rapid Transit" photo. The other category I'd like to suggest adding would be "Heavy Rail", after all many people here also like heavy rail trains and it would nail commuter rail at the same time too.
-Robert King
The Ottawa light rail is diesel powered, not electric traction!!! Don't disqualify it!! :-)
getting warmed up now !!
pasadena blue line construction photo i took over the los angeles river !
Doesn't count! The tracks are missing :)
--Mark
Maybe it would qualify for the bus category, then?
.......lol!!...not a chance !!! ................2002!!!
will be running in 2002 !!!
How about dividing the best non NYC photo into bus and subway categories?
Well Dave, you'll be happy to know that people are jumping on this one. On my last four trips on the Queensbridge Shuttle (from 1223 on), I was shot - or rather, my train was shot - at least 6 times. All six shots show an R-32 consist coming into the station with NO operator - if I see a camera with a flash as I come in, I either lean way into the corner or sound the whistle as I approach. The blinding at South Ferry one night taught me to avoid the cameras.
Wise move.
I always turn the flash off when photographing oncoming trains. Elsewhere in the subway, I usually turn the flash off as well, in compliance with TA regulations, but I'll admit to occasionally using the flash in some of the darker station areas (one of those times two cops came around the bend just after the flash went off and they didn't seem to mind).
The flash on my camera pops up whenever the camera is turned on, whether or not the flash is active.
One more advantage to having a bunch of stone-age cameras (with good optics)... no built-in flash, no automatic anything. On those occasions when I'm using flash, believe me, you'll know it... my strobe (an aging and cantankerous Vivitar 285) is bigger than the camera, and my big bulb units have their own tripods :-)
(I will confess to having a point 'n' shoot Minolta that I use on occasions like my grandchildren's birthdays, though... the Canons and Exaktas are just too cumbersome for fast indoor action. But I'd never use that in the subway, or any train shooting for that matter.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd love to go the all-manual route, but I often find myself taking pictures with little notice. I'm sure your results are far superior to mine, but they're also a far greater production. For an automatic, I've been quite pleased with the results of my camera (Canon SureShot Z135).
I'm sure your results are far superior to mine...
I wouldn't bet on that if I were you :-)
...but they're also a far greater production.
Only when flash gets involved. Jr. "graduated" from a Canon SureShot to a 30-year-old Canon FTb this past spring and he's already got the hang of focusing and setting his ƒ-stop on the run. It just takes a bit more planning so that you have the right lens on the body when the shot presents itself (or you can be lazy and have a couple of bodies with different lenses at the ready, like I usually do).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's impossible to do news and sports without an automatic camera.
-Hank
I am no longer legally limited by the flash restriction. But I'll still avoid it.
-Hank
Actually, its better to leave the flash off. If you use flash, it works for the first 5 to 10 feet, then the rest is darker than it would be before. (Hold on, I'm giving away tips. Maybe I should post this before I say more...)
If you use flash, it works for the first 5 to 10 feet, then the rest is darker than it would be before.
Right. Here's an example... and this one's been cleaned up quite a bit by Photoshop. In the original picture (a Polaroid) the wall in the background appears to be a dark brown; cleaned up as you see it here, it's a medium gray-brown; in reality, it was an eggshell white. And no, I will NOT tell you how old we were when that picture was taken, other than to say that the pre-teenager who took it is now the mother of our grandchildren :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, Who's the guy that she is hugging?
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, before I threw my razor out... :-) (Only our oldest knows what I look like without a beard!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's Elvis
Simon
Swindon UK
Whoa nelly! :)
That's good advice, but there are still cases where it's simply impossible to get a clear shot without a tripod. The lighting in subway stations has improved over the years but it's still not consistent.
Well, sorry to hear that, there's always some people who don't realize how inconsiderate that can be. For what it's worth, many recent digital cameras don't even need much flash underground...
-Dave
I know. I only duck when I can see a flash attachment pointed at me. Those add-ons to a good 35mm camera can be really bright.
The flash doesn't bother me. Usually it's because I keep my eyes closed anyw...................WHOOPS! Most of the time, it's just tourists clicking away. I personally don't mind being part of someone's scrapbook.
[... On my last four trips on the Queensbridge Shuttle (from 1223 on), I was shot - or rather, my train was shot - at least 6 times ...]
Alex, couldn't you say that they caught with a camera or something like that ? Would want any of our drivers to report that they were s... on their run.
Mr t
well how bout' this for example a pacific electric PE 314 car & a good ol' PCC car doin' its thing at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM
in peris california.... digital shot taken with a sony DSC S30 digital camera by myself ...
well how bout' this for example a pacific electric PE 314 car & a good ol' PCC car doin' its thing at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM
in peris california.... digital shot taken with a sony DSC S30 digital camera by myself ... the spring of 2000
I don't think you'll win with it, even though I personally enjoyed it.
Mr t
Well, I think I can join the competition. I have some cool photos. I am only joining for the sheer fun of it...not to be competitive like, say...well, I won't say any names, but it will be very fun...
Cleanairbus
OK I will dust off the old WP-1 and head out on the 25th (with Steve B and subway-buff in tow) to take some for the contest...
wayne
how bout shots like this sexy X rated one ?? PE # 717 pacific electric car at th ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california!!
( photo by salaamallah )
You seem pretty confident that you're gonna win this, Salaam, but I've seen some real good transit shots on this site, and on other sites too. Be careful: Curiosity didn't kill the cat - overconfidence did.
true hell I anit goin' win the photo contest anyway !! Besides this photo contest excludes us X new yorkers !!.........lol!!!
But I am the transit photo KING on the west coast hand down !!! ( my cat dis a long time ago ) -----lol big time !!
I get this big URGE to share my photos with evryone I feel like an exibitionist or something like that...
motorman I aint goin' win Sh_____!
i think trevor logan is going to win first place
That is a good prediction. I think he has the best pix of NY subways. Did you see his sunset pix at Stillwell? They were really good.
I also think David Pirmann's pix are real good, but he can't win in his own contest!
YES !! you are right TREVOR LOGAN wins hands down for sure !!
Why do I feel like I'm watching presidential election coverage?
Oh, yeah! Because people are crowning a victor BEFORE THE VOTES ARE EVEN COUNTED! In this case, before the contest has even started!
-Hank
LOL !! i feel like a little kid goin round' takin' all kinda' pics of electric transit rail cars etc..( you have to admit Trevor Logan is #1 !! )
Thank you for your vote of confidence, I will do my best in the contest but I'm sure there is other competent photographers out there!
Thank You
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
yes sir ! ..........by the way did you recieve the pictures i sent you on your site .........e mail .........??
Lets hope we know the winner soon after the contest ends. WITHOUT ANY RECOUNTS.
Will there be runners up in this contest like 2nd place, 3rd place and Honorable Mention? Let's not jump to conclusions here. We shall see who the real winner is-we have lots of people with lots of great pics.
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
Haven't thought about 2nd/3rd place awards. I'm not sure I'll have enough prizes to make that worthwhile although I could certainly CHOOSE runners-up...
NYC Transit has done an outstanding job keeping the subways moving following the WTC attacks. But, a month after the fact, we really could use some decent and semi-permanent signage. A few xeroxed pages taped to a pillar with information that contradicts the above-track route info is extremely confusing to visitors, tourists and-- even people who live here. Many of the changes will be around for a while and should be so noted. Verbal PA announcements are all but useless unless one is conversant in "uptown" slang and accent.
It's been a month, and they haven't replaced the R's with Q's in Queens IND stations. Even some conductors on the (7) line list the transfers at 74th Street as "E, F, G, and R."
I was in Brooklyn yesterday, and the signage concerning the (1) stopping in Brooklyn is OK. Pacific Street had some (J)'s covering the (N)(R), but besides that, it's not good.
Several signs around the Times Square complex have eliminated references to the 9, and signage for the 2 is now hanging over the local platforms.
I haven't seen any updated signage at 1/2 local stations.
One of the signs on the northbound BMT platform at Fulton Street has its 2 covered in black. The 3 is still there and there's no 1. I believe I first noticed this before the recent changes.
They did the same on the southbound platform ther as well -just noticed it this morning.
Any idea why? A few years ago the transfer passageway to the 2/3 was closed for rehab, but that impacted both the 2 and the 3, and the transfer was available, although inconvenient (via the street). I can't think of anything else.
Has anything been done to the signage at 14th Street? The northbound platform carries the northbound 1 and 2; the southbound platform carries the southbound 1 and 2 and the northbound 3. (When I rode a 3 from 14th about two weeks ago I was amazed that no one on my car was surprised when we pulled out to the north.)
Hey, I rode the 1 train in Brooklyn for the first time ever in late September and the C/R announced transfers to the M, N and R trains at Boro Hall and transfers to the B, D, M, N, Q, R and W trains at Atlantic. B and D? N and R is an honest mistake since the signs still showed the N and R stopping at Boro Hall and Atlantic and it was just a week after the 1 began running to Brooklyn. But the B and D stopped running in Brooklyn in July and were removed from the station signs long before the 9/19 service patterns began.
Some NYC Subway Conductors just don't care. I would like to say that they are stupid, but I want to give them the benfit of the doubt. How else can you explain that for the 20+ years I rode the subways on weekends, conductors would announce at Atlantic Avenue to change for the #5 train. ON WEEKENDS!!! There is no excuse for that. How would they like it one of their wives or daughters were standing on a platform waiting for a train that won't show up for 48 hours? If any conductors who post on this board can explain this to me, let me know. And not realizing what day of the week they are working is no excuse. I work at NJ Transit and I work different shifts and hours, & I always know what day of the week it is!
I agree that top administration of the TA has done a great job of assigning and rerouting trains following the WTC disaster. But at the level of the "rank and file," communicating this information to the traveling public has been awful! Let's face it: the average commuter is not a subway "groupie" checking out websites such as this or "intuiting" where the trains are probably going based on switching formations, track layouts, etc.
Riders need to see something concrete that doesn't blatantly contradict the "normal" information on those big, bold signs over the platform tracks. [Why not put something semi-permanent and removeable on those wonderfully designed "hanging" track-side signs??]
And, yes, passengers are entitled to "hear" something that is both clear and intelligible and delivered in standard English. I've been called a "racist" here for criticizing the "uptown" slang that, as an English-speaking person, I often can't catch. Many immigrant New Yorkers are still learning "real" English so of course will not grasp the slangy, slurred speech mumbled into the microphone of a moving train. I can't tell you how many times a passenger has asked me to repeat an announcement he couldn't understand. Three cheers for the pre-recorded messages on the newer cars. They're tedious and boring-- and completely understandable!!
Three cheers for the pre-recorded messages on the newer cars. They're tedious and boring-- and completely understandable!!
And wrong half the time. They give pre-July 22 transfers. (That's up to six stations on the 2, depending on time and day -- plus everything involving the 1 vs. the 3 -- and three stations on the 6.) Every 2 train declares itself an express (this is a pretty significant problem since most passengers still aren't used to the 2 as a regular local, so when a 2 pulls in on the local track, they rely on the signage and announcements to determine if it's express or local). And "Penn" was garbled in the initial recording, so it's garbled every time the train stops there.
I'll take the inconsistent C/R announcements any day. It's unfortunate that they're not always correct, but at least they have a chance of making fewer than six errors per round trip. (And they have more character, but that's beside the point.) Automated announcements could have been implemented correctly, but they weren't, and what we have now is a big step down.
I make sure that I announce the correct transfers at the right time and station. I remember about a week and a half after the attacks, I had a job on the 5 line. A passenger boarded the train at Franklin Ave and asked me if he can the J at BB-CH. I told him yes, but he can also get it at Atlantic Ave. It took some convincing to do but he got off at Atlantic, which was good because he had a rather large box with him. I know at Atlantic, you just go downstairs, through the walkway and down more stairs. At Brooklyn Bridge, I believe you have to go down a flight and then up a flight of stairs. Most C/R's on the other hand are just not doing that aspect of their job.
I heard an announcement on a Queens Blvd. express train today. After the doors opened, the C/R said "Transfer to the G, R, and 7 trains."
That announcement is 66% wrong! (assuming that this train will announce transfers to the other express line at Continental)
I can't remember what train it was because most E and F trains look the same now!
I only found updated signs at Boro Hall. At other Brooklyn IRT stops (Clark, Hoyt, Nevins) the signs still show the 3 stopping there.
There is correct signage from Utica to New Lots. I think Kingston and Nostrand may have it as well. I know Flatbush and 241St have signs designating the 2 as the 7Av local.
Three weeks ago, Franklin Street had this cryptic message:
(1)(9) To Van Cortlandt Pk-242 St. Rush hours skip-stop after 137 St. (2) local all other times
Late nights (2) to Wakefield-241 St also stops here
Oops. I stand corrected. Just noticed over the weekend that the above-track platform signs are in the process of being adjusted to reflect the reality of service on the 1, 2 and 3. In fact, I caught the TA workers making the change-over at Times Square: 1 and 2 on the local and 3 on the express.
On the downtown platform, the info for the #1 also states (which I didn't realize) that, late nights, the #1 only goes to Chambers.
Someday people will understand that all 468 stations, with their NUMEROUS SIGNS, cannot all be changed at once!! I mean the employees at NYC Transit are humans, not machines, so give us credit for doing what we can as much as we can giving the rather extreme circumstances we have to work with since September 11th....we do our best!!
Today I saw that the 2 and 3 bullets inside Borough Hall in Brooklyn were replaced with 1 and 2.
Yeah I know what you mean. With signs of N and R still up, a few people were asking me where the N or R is. I told them there is no N or R, there's only the Q and W now. Both people I helped opted for the East Side Lex IRT instead, which is noticably more crowded than it used to be.
...a month after the fact, we really could use some decent and semi-permanent signage. A few xeroxed pages taped to a pillar with information that contradicts the above-track route info is extremely confusing to visitors, tourists and-- even people who live here.
I don't agree at all that the signage should be changed. Paper signs are in fact perfectly adequate to announce temporary changes (even "temporary" changes that last for several months). In fact, I would argue that paper signs are more effective now than they usually are.
Ordinarily, due to the expectation of normalcy, riders may potentially overlook the paper signs which announce trackwork-related reroutes. But, now, because there is absolutely no one (resident nor tourist) who is walking around unaware of what happened at the WTC and expecting service to be completely normal, the paper signs draw one's attention in a way they never have done before. They provide reassurance that the rider is getting current info (as opposed to under-normal-circumstances info).
Someone else mentioned that some conductors on the 7 are still announcing that you can transfer to the "E, F, G, and R" at 74th St.
Granted, it would be clearer to announce "E, F, G, and Q". But, making the normal announcement is really no big deal, since passengers transfering for an R there will read and hear many times the message that the Q is temporarily making R stops in Queens.
Likewise, there is no need to go through the effort of re-signing the N and R stations in Brooklyn, only to have to change them all back relatively soon. All you need are paper signs which say that the J is making R stops and the M is making N stops. The stations on the way to Bay Ridge (for instance) are still conceptually "R train stations"; the J is merely "making R stops". Furthermore, I am sure that, every time a J (or M) pulls in to any of the R (or N) stations, there are loudspeaker announcements stating this message.
Which brings us to this gem of a statement:
Verbal PA announcements are all but useless unless one is conversant in "uptown" slang and accent.
Hmm. (I really, really hope that this thread remains devoted to signage. However, the above comment is just too blatant and egregious to ignore.)
The clarity of announcements may be compromised by the flaws of the equipment itself. Also, sometimes a heavy accent from another part of the English-speaking world (like maybe an Indian or a Caribbean accent) could get in the way. But, never, ever have I heard it asserted that riders had trouble understanding an "uptown" accent.
First of all, you ought to just drop your transparent euphemism and say what you clearly mean -- a black accent. You are saying that there are riders who can't understand announcements made (on a functioning PA) by someone who has a black accent. And, on top of that, you claim that your fantasy PA announcer is making these announcements using "uptown" (read: "black") slang.
Come on. You do realize that this is nonsense, I hope. I submit that this sort of thing never happens, and that your claim is nothing more than an absurd, racist lie.
(I can't help but be reminded of the funny scene in "Airplane" where a white stewardess is unable to understand a sick black passenger because he is speaking "jive", but then another (white) passenger facilitates the conversation by translating between "jive" and English. Maybe you need that passenger to ride the subway with you and decode those mysterious announcements, eh?)
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- Again, I ask that this thread remain a signage thread, and that any responses about anything else be made under a different header.
But, now, because there is absolutely no one (resident nor tourist) who is walking around unaware of what happened at the WTC and expecting service to be completely normal
I wouldn't be completely sure of that ....
How true! Just yesterday, when I entered the Canal Street station at Broadway, a man was just standing there staring at the baracade blocking access to the N/R platform. I asked him if he was lost, and he asked me where he could find the N and R trains. When I told him that those trains hadn't been running since the WTC came down, he became completely bewildered and blurted out, "Then how do I get to 8th Street?"
And, no, he was not a tourist or a senior who has lost some of his mental flexibility.
You'd be surprised how many people don't know about the service patterns and don't pay attention to the red-and-white service notices. Having the circle Q train local and the diamond Q train express in Manhattan and giving them two separate terminals at both ends is confusing. Clearer signage needs to be listed. Maybe some kind of "warning sign" that have black letters on a white background that could easily be removed when the regular service resumes. That'll work on the Broadway and 4th Avenue BMT. The 7th Avenue and Brooklyn IRT need more permanent signage because it's going to be a few years before the 1 returns to South Ferry and the current pattern on the 7th Avenue and Brooklyn IRT is probably going to stay that way for some time.
The signs on the 2 line platforms in the Bronx have been showing the 2 as the 7th Avenue Local all times for the last two weeks now. But so far everywhere else they have the pre-9/19 signage. But from what I see in this thread, it looks like the TA is fixing the signs. It's about time!
I decided to check it out today. I decided to find out if they redid the signs on the West Side IRT. They only fixed the signs at Times Square, Penn Station and Boro Hall and the Boro Hall signs still show the N and R. But I can understand them leaving the N/R signs alone because it's possible that the N and R may return before the six-month estimate that was given.
These observations, of course, are extremely subjective from a railfan point of view.
-No more railfan window along Astoria el.
-Return of one local-only service to Astoria el. No one seems to notice the difference.
-Complete railfan window access along entire 4th Avenue corridor and Sea Beach. Accompanying loss of front-facing window seats. First regular R42 service on Sea Beach; they'd been glamour relief for the R32s from 1969 through about 1974, and occasionally in '99 when the Willy B first closed down.
-Return of R32s to Brighton local, traditional 32 territory from 1964 through the seventies.
-Return of Slants to Nassau Street, Williamsburg Bridge, Myrtle and inner Broadway els. (Not that I've gotten one in three attempts!) The 'M' did use Slants sporadically around 1991-92 and then for the Willy B closure.
-Strange (R68) equipment on Queens Boulevard local. Most commuters seem to have adjusted really well to the 'Q' taking over for 'R', but a lot seem to cringe at the annoying squealing, whining PA sounds so familiar to Concourse, Brighton, Astoria and Sea Beach riders.
-In a throwback to the eighties, identical (R46) equipmemnt on both Queens Boulevard expresses, requiring passengers to stop and check signs before boarding. Unlike in the eighties, however, when a simple glance at whether the circle was orange or blue sufficed, now an LED sign is your only means of identification.
-Conversely, differing equipment on both Queens Boulevard local services has eliminated the situation described above at inbound platforms on weekday mornings.
-Loss of railfan window on Queens Boulevard express- although every time you think the 'E' has gone completely 46, a 32 comes along.
-Return to all-local Broadway (BMT) service on weekends after brief (52 days) return of express. Hard to believe it was all local for nearly thirteen years!!
-Virtual loss of 7th Avenue express service below Times Square. Yeah, there's the '3' above 14th Street, but more often than not it seems to run local as well. One day last week at Penn, there was a '3' on the downtown local track, a Redbird '2' on the uptown express track, and a 142 '2' signed for Flatbush on the uptown local track. Painfully slow trip (25 minutes in rush hours) from TS to Chambers.
-A newfound appreciation for Lexington Avenue service below Grand Central due to the above.
-People who refuse to board a '2' at a local stop even if they can, particularly downtown at 86th and 79th. If it's a Redbird, they might be a little more inclined, but a 142 is looked upon as a UFO. As it is, people still aren't fully used to new equipment on the '2'. (Although it's pretty much taken for granted on the '6' by now.)
-What must be horrible overcrowding on rush hour '5's in and out of the Bronx due to permanent local '2' service through Manhattan.
-The '1' in Brooklyn, surely a first- not to mention seeing a '1' and '4' across the platform from each other.
-There are still some people who actually believe they can get to the World Trade Center and become very flabbergasted when told otherwise. The explanation "Because of what happened on the 11th" often draws a blank look. Similarly, there are those who hang tight and insist on waiting for the 'N' or 'R' no matter how many hours they stand there. ("What the hell is the 'J' doing here?!"; "What's a 'W'?!"; "Why are we going over the Bridge?!"; "What are we doing at Broad Street?!")
-Full through PATH service from 33rd to Newark. NJT revenue on New York-Newark trips must really be drying up now.
-Loss of skip-stop service on Jamaica and upper Broadway lines. Does anyone notice?
-The assurance that all this upheavel will extend the life of the Redbirds yet longer.
-A promise of more personal patience in dealing with lack of announcements, incorrect signage, delays etc. in deference to everything that's happened. Likewise, resolve to be more tolerant over everyday annoyances at work, with family, while driving or shopping. I was able to fulfill these goals for about a week.
-Loss of a personal favorite hangout. There was nothing more relaxing than walking the riverfront esplanade from Stuyvesant HS to Battery Park early mornings or at sundown. Access may be restored one day soon, but the overriding feeling of tragedy just seems too overwhelming.
Railfan windows are newly available on the 7th Avenue local and Brighton local (including the line south of Brighton Beach). Railfan windows are more regularly available on the Queens Boulevard local (including the BMT connection), the Manhattan Bridge, the 4th Avenue local, and the Sea Beach. Railfan windows are no longer available on the Astoria line, the 4th Avenue express, or the West End.
(BTW, the diamond-Q still runs express on Broadway.)
Yeah but the diamond Q don't run on weekends, so there's no express service on Broadway then.
> -Full through PATH service from 33rd to Newark. NJT revenue on New
> York-Newark trips must really be drying up now.
? I don't know about you but I wouldn't subject myself to the overcrowded horror that is now the rush hour PATH to save a couple dollars on NJT fare to Penn Station.
Now at least 60% of people boarding before Newark on my Long Branch - NYC express, 6 car, early morning train, go to NYC.
Used to be about 35% to 45%.
Plus about 2 carload worth of people board at Newark (that's where I get off) so it is standing room only from at least South Amboy (that's where I board).
I have not had a seat since September 25.
Before that, I had a seat at least 2 times a week.
Can't say much about passenger loads between Sep 12-21, because as a precaution against being stranded, I drove for those few days.
Good to see you on the 4th, by the way... that train was crowded, glad I don't ride it every day!
Drop me an email when you get the chance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>-A newfound appreciation for Lexington Avenue service below Grand Central due to the above. <<<
Yup I definately use that line alot more now. Broadway is a mess. Even in rush hour you wait 5 minutes for a train. It is slower, with less express service with the Prince st merge. It's much easier to get down to Chinatown with the 6 train, but with the acrid burning steel smell in the air down there, my trips aren't as frequent. As with many others, between the subway changes and the smell, generally when you go "downtown" (any area that is below 14th street) you see mainly residents and workers, not nearly as many as tourists.
>>-The assurance that all this upheavel will extend the life of the Redbirds yet longer. <<
Yup the Redbirds seem to be around alot, especially on the 4 and 5.
>>-Loss of a personal favorite hangout. <<
The WTC Mall was my favorite hangout. Especially Borders. All that is gone now. :-(
Redbirds 2's and 5's are slated for 'The Reef' but they're still coming in for scheduled maintainance cuz the R142s are getting hung up for troubles and modifications. Enjoy those stinky dirty birds while you can.....just flip up a center seat for a wiff and a swipe of fourty years of oil/grease/steel dust. Pop down a ventilator panel for a shower of dirt and motor brush graphite. It's the BOMB.
The prewar cars were like that also - except everything fell into the cab. Just don't forget to put the seat down when you're done or you'll be in trouble. :)
Actually, the loss of N/W service on the Astoria line has been noticeable to me. Once or twice a week, instead of taking LIRR to Penn and then the overcrowded E train to 53rd, I'll take a LIRR local to Woodside, then the 7 Express to Queensboro and the Astoria line to 5th/60th. For a short window there before 9/11, every connection was a breeze and the trip was usually faster than going into Penn. Now the wait at QBP is often 10-15 minutes with the trains considerably more crowded. It was nice for a while there -- fast commute, less crowded trains. Still, I'd walk across the 59th Street Bridge every day for the rest of my working life if it would bring those 6,000 people back.
CG
Amen
Nice Summary,
I can add my 2 cents about the loss of skip stop on the #1. YES, THANK YOU IT IS NOT MISSED!!!!! Those who board at "all stop" stations 168-191 and 231 may miss it but not use peons who must live with watching trains barrel trough our stations without stopping.
The wait for the next train is exponentially longer than the few seconds saved by skip/stop. As Train Dude noted, the long CPW run saves 8 minutes (and experience tells us that may be a high number), what can the 1/9 skip/stop possibly save, 45 seconds?????
Piggo
Nando Times:Railroads resume shipping hazardous materials
Orlando Sentinel: Commuter rail to be studied
Detroit Lakes Tribune:Man hit by train near Lake Park
Reno Gazette-Journal: City seeks share of new federal railroad money Reid, Lott pushing bills fortransportation needs
Sweet. I like this new format of your postings ;-)
How does putting less information on the Internet make the trains any more secure? Terrorists are trained in infiltration.
Anything new in the Centre Street Subway reconstruction plan?
Been through there (Canal St. J platform) in the last few days. No sign of any further work.
I think that their priorities may have changed, don't you?
Yep. But since the Atlantic Avenue Station Reconstruction and AirTrain projects are continuing, I thought maybe they started this one too.
In the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, there have been a plethora of stories floating around in the media and SubTalk regarding transit heroics and horrors. While I believe most of these stories are accurate, some are contradictory. For instance, there was report on 1010 WINS yesterday of an R Train that hurried away as the towers fell. My understanding is that service was suspended in the area after the initial impact but before the collapse of the structures.
There certainly were heroics that day, by operators, dispatchers, and the MTA/PATH. To truly honor the transit rescue effort, I am proposing that an accurate (as possible) timeline of events be constructed. When completed, it could be given to David Pirmann and the hosting web site.
I will need the help of any credible transit operators, dispatchers, passengers, and MTA personnel who may view this web site and have access to information that can be disclosed. Information that would be crucial is:
* Trains running through the affected tunnel segments after impact.
* The last trains to stop at affected stations.
* Trains that continued to run, but bypassed.
* Trains not in service in the affected areas.
* The last trains running.
* Reopening of routes.
* Damage assessments.
* Construction of bulkheads.
* Passenger movement.
* Announcement activity.
* First trains running again.
* History of reroutes in the days after.
* Damaged equipment, and equipment trapped in sealed tunnels.
So let's start with the basics:
8:48AM: Tower 1 (North) Hit on North face by American Airlines flight 11.
9:03AM: Tower 2 (South) Hit on South face by United Airliens Flight 175.
9:21AM: Port Authority orders all bridges and tunnels closed.
10:05AM: Tower 2 (South) fails (in cantilever).
10:28AM: Tower 1 (North) fails (telescopically).
11:02AM: Mayor Giuliani orders area south of Canal Street evacuated.
2:49PM: Mayor Giulinai states at news conference that bus and subway service is partially restored.
5:20PM: Building 7 fails.
That's just the framework to start filling in.
I realize that this is a lot of information, and I personally don't have access to much of it. That's why I need everyone's help. I think this is a good, creative idea that will honor by veracity.
MATT-2AV
P.S.: If you would like to see the debunking of many urban legends that have cropped up after the attack, follow the link and click on the War ribbon at the top. It is really impressive.
I'm trying to track down the exact FDNY units that lost apparatus in the collapse.
-Hank
Hank,
I remember seeing a special on 60 Minutes II, about Rescue 6. If I recall correctly, they showed their totalled firetruck being hauled out to Staten Island at the end. After all, they were protected in the building.
The information I'm looking for is specific to rapid-transit train, passenger, and personnel movements, in both the MTA and PATH systems, in the vicinity of the tradecenters (i.e., what was the last train to bypass, what was the last train to stop at an affected station, what PATH trains were left behind, etc...)
MATT-2AV
Ladder 6. There never was a Rescue 6. I believe at least one MTA bus was destroyed in the incident.
I've got a photo of the remains of numerous FDNY equipment on top of one of the mounds. Be warned, it's 460kb. http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/BRPics/023_21.JPG
-Hank
I believe at least one MTA bus was destroyed in the incident
IIRC, it was 1998 MCI Cruiser #1998.
>>>..., it was 1998 MCI Cruiser #1998. <<<
YOU are absolutly correct...i have a picture to prove it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm SORRY it was #2185 that was destroyed
Peace,
ANDEE
Where can we find the picture?
-Hank
It is in the centerfold of the current issue of the TWU local 100 newspaper. Since it is B/W and on news print it does not scan very well. I will try again to scan and post it later today.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm second guessing the headline for the main message in this thread, hoping to try and capture somebody's attention who happens to have the information I'm looking for. Namely, times, movements, and schedules of trains passing through the affected area on the morning of September 11 (or where I can get this info). I understand it is quite possible that nobody does.
MATT-2AV
from the TWU Stations Dept Bulletin Board:
A proposal has been made that trains from the 6 be extended to serve this station. When I get further info I will post.
The bbs also advises that BMT could( note: I say could) be open by the end of the month. Of course, Cortlandt would need another exit or all traffic exits through the Norhtbound platform's exit to the street. I also assume that the South underpass is servicable. If so, I expect the part-time booths might be open full time. Here again, if I get more info I will post.
The bbs also advises that BMT could( note: I say could) be open by the end of the month. Of course, Cortlandt would need another exit or all traffic exits through the Norhtbound platform's exit to the street. I also assume that the South underpass is servicable
Or Cortlandt simply could be skipped.
I would think that this would be the case since that entire area will be off limits to all except emergency personnel for some time.
The bbs also advises that BMT could( note: I say could) be open by the end of the month.
They are going to have to decide this relatively soon, so that the B Div pick can go forward or be stopped.
I heard that the B divison pick will continue to proceed, but go into effect on 12/9/01.
Hope, Always.
What have you got against Faith and Charity?
I think Hope is the jealous type. :)
The is Brighton Beach, in fact I have been to 3 of them, The West End is the furthest West on the 4 Lines, and Culver. But Where is or was SEA BEACH?
The Sea Beach referred to the "Sea Beach" Hotel that once stood at the end of the current Sea Beach line, when that line ran at grade.
Maybe thats where Fred should stay next time he comes to Brooklyn
The Elephant Hotel that used to stand nearby the Sea Beach Palace Hotel had a lot more, er, action :)
If you'd like to read an early history of Brooklyn Rapid Transit that talks about all the lines serving Coney Island, read my document on the subject on this site.
Sooner or later (probably later), I'll have additional history of the BRT/BMT ....
--Mark
[Where is or was SEA BEACH?]
I thought he moved to California :-)
Good point Andy. There you have it Brighton Express Bob. Where is Sea Beach. He lives in California. Who is he? He's me. Beautiful!!!!!!!!!
Oh PUKE
Hi,
Where can I learn more about Mark's videos... I have been riding marta this week and last and need some nyc transit fix! :)
I am like an addict!!
Thanks,
Allen
Use this address (sorry - I can't do links).
http://www.nycsubway.org/transfer/videos.html
I do links :)
My list is here ... My Video List.
The list will be updated around Thanksgiving.
Feel free to e-mail me with any questions you may have. I would be happy to help with your addiction :)
--Mark
<>
Mark - your new claim to fame? Subway Video Pusher? :)
I can think of worse claims to fame! :)
(But only when asked!)
--Mark
You could e mail Mark
Other than providing local service on the Concourse during rush hour (which could easily be given back to the C) it doesn't seem to add much. Does anybody let the A, C, or D pass by while waiting for a C? What for?
......I'll assume that you are new here.....
1. You suggest giving the concourse local back to the "C". Of course, there would need to be a local train on the "A" line from 145th to 168th, which is presently the "C" train.
2. Passengers waiting on a local train along CPW would have 2 problems with your suggestion:
A. They loose their ride to sixth av/midtown
B. Local service suffers woefully.
People let the "C" pass by so that they can go to sixth av and midtown, which is far more popular than 8th av and midtown.
Of course, there would need to be a local train on the "A" line from 145th to 168th, which is presently the "C" train.
There are only two local stations between 145 and 168. They can easily be served by the "A", as was done in the recent suspension of the "C".
Local service suffers woefully
Run more "C" trains. The folks in Brooklyn should love that.
People let the "C" pass by so that they can go to sixth av and midtown, which is far more popular than 8th av and midtown.
I'll have to take your word on this point, afterall, I'm "new" here. I was thinking that they could transfer to the "D" at 59th but that goes against the original design concept of the IND.
It would be interesting to count the number of people riding the "B" south of 59th street.
Yes. Without it, CPW LCL service would be cut in half and people going to the Bronx would have a local trip more often.
It actually does not serve a purpose equal to its use of resources. That is why there has been some discussion about eliminating B service in favor of Local D service and a < D > service for rush hours.
What will hapen in 2004 when the Bridge northside tracks reopen if there is no B train?
Even if we do eliminate the B until 2004, there is still the W. Its pretty clear that the B isn't an efficient use of resources right now. I'd be surprised if it lasts more than one more pick. Of course, this is extremely wishful thinking.
If the B is eliminated, would the D run local or express on CPW? How about the A? If only the C runs local, will the CPW stations be getting the service they need?
Of course we are speculating butin my opinion, the D would need to run local on CPW except for those designated D "Diamond" trains. The additional running time would be about 8 minutes.
MY DAY HAS COME!!! The (B) is useless! ... :-) ...
That's probably reasonable. Off-peak, one express should be enough. Peak, it sounds like the proposed circle-D is just today's B and the proposed diamond-D is just today's D, so why not use the names we're all familiar with?
I've posted here about my ride on the C from 86th to 168th which moved faster than the express. Scheduled running time on the local might be eight minutes longer but the actual running time increase may well be far less.
I'm in that minority of SubTalkers who recognizes that, when push comes to shove, it's the express service, not the local service, that's expendable.
The present routing does not make much sense. It made more sense, when there were 6th and 8th Avenue services on both branch lines. This was when the A and B went to Washington Heights and the C and D went to the Bronx or even earlier when the A and BB went to Washington Heights and the C, CC and D went to the Concourse.
The purpose for such routing was to provide a single, direct ride for as many passengers as possible. This would also reduce the number of people having to change trains to get to their proper destination. By not having such choice at the entry station NYCT has increased the amount transfer traffic at key stations such as 59th St. This, of course, increases dwell time at these stations. The dwell time increase is further compounded by using 75 foot cars, which due to less door space than their predecessors, further increase dwell time. The TA's knee jerk analysis has been to blame the passengers for failing to organize their movement into and out of trains to an imagined standard that the passengers' ancestors never exhibited.
I would guess that the reason for changing the B and C terminals was to marry the routes to the yard facilities. This way 207th and Pitkin were dedicated to the A and C with Concourse and Coney Island being dedicated to the B and D. The fact that this causes additional stress to the passengers is "collateral damage". Of course, nobody at the TA has questioned why they can't organize their train movements to accommodate the passengers' idiosyncracies.
Why not switch the B and C terminals again until 2004? The C can use the R68s out of Concourse on those runs and the B can use the R32s on its Washington Heights runs.
The idea of reversing the B & C routes again raises some interesting possibilities. I'm going to give it some thought over this weekend but it already looks like it has possibilities.
Yes.
IMO, right now it doesnt.
The (3) train is currently the only thing running express on Seventh Ave.
:-) Andrew
Right... but whose to say the 2 cant do the task!?
Exaclty my point. The 2 line does not belong on the local tracks during the weekdays. I can understand the midnights but not during the day with 1 running 4-5 minute headways.
According to the August 2001 timetable (which I realize is out of date, but it's the best available to the public), the 1 runs as frequently as you claim only during the morning rush hour, northbound(!). In practice, 1 service is quite irregular and many trains skip local stops. Before the 2 began running local, there were regularly gaps at local stations of over ten minutes during rush hour.
Given the population density of some of the areas served by the 1's local stops, I'd suggest keeping the 2 a permanent local (or finding some other way to improve local service).
According to the timetable, the local takes 8 minutes longer than the express between Chambers and 96th, and few ride the entire distance between those two points. An extra few minutes on a train are generally safer and more comfortable than an extra few minutes in a station.
Local service is a basic necessity. Express service is a plus. Start by providing sufficient local service. Once that's in place, add on express service.
Keep the 2 a permanent local? No way! But if you wanna make the 3 local, be my guest!
ya know, that new tragedy service doesn't make any sense. why not eliminate the 3 train from 135 to new lots,make the 2 run express to flatbush bk college and make the 1 local to new lots until things get better. and just to increase service on the 2 add some R-62a's on that line with the rest of the R-142's and the few redbirds left. and speaking of R-62a's, 3 of them ran on the 2 line last week. can't remember the numbers.
Sure it makes sense. Think about it. The capacity of the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line below Chambers Street is far below what it is above Chambers Street (2 tracks vs. 4), and the additional capacity between 14th Street and Chambers Street is (for all intents and purposes) not usable because of the need to switch trains between the express and local tracks at Chambers Street to get service to and from Brooklyn. The need for service in Manhattan is greater than the ability to provide that service between Brooklyn and Manhattan. Thus, a "filler" service operating in Manhattan is needed. The #3 right now is that "filler" service.
David
The need for service in Manhattan is greater than the ability to provide that service between Brooklyn and Manhattan. Thus, a "filler" service operating in Manhattan is needed. The #3 right now is that "filler" service.
The #3 does not do a very good job of acting as a "filler" because it makes so few stops. It currently makes only 11 stops. I don't think that either 145th or 148th are heavily used stations, otherwise the midnight shuttle bus would not be adequate. All the other stops are shared with one or more services. So far as I understand the additional "filler" service is needed along the upper Broadway corridor rather than along the Lenox corridor.
True, 145th Street and 148th Street aren't that heavy (566,358 and 583,900 riders, respectively, in 1999), but 135th Street (2,787,922), 125th Street, (2,549,043), 116th Street (1,569,936), and 110th Street (1,625,526) are, at least in comparison. And yes, several stations along upper Broadway (especially south of 168th Street) see heavy use. As I understand it, there already is more #1 service than #2 service, and given that both services are now going to Brooklyn and Rogers Junction (south of Franklin Avenue) is already at or VERY near its operational limit as far as Broadway-Seventh Avenue service is concerned, and given that the amount of service coming off the White Plains Road Line (#2 and #5 combined) is at or near what can be provided (leaving few, if any, slots for additional #2 trains), what's left? A short-lined #3.
Of course, splitting Upper Broadway service might be a solution (say, #1 from 242nd Street to New Lots Avenue via Broadway-Seventh Avenue local; #9 from 242nd Street or some short terminal like 137th Street to 14th Street via Broadway-Seventh Avenue express), at least on weekdays, with the total service along upper Broadway being greater than what is being provided now, but that would pretty much necessitate closing the Lenox Avenue branch since the slots now taken by #3 trains would instead be taken by upper Broadway trains. I don't see that happening politically, since there is nothing wrong with that part of the system that would justify its closure, even with a bus replacement (which outside of midnights is very labor-intensive).
So, in short, the short-lined #3 serves a purpose. It might not solve all of the problems the people reading this board (and any concerned riders) may want solved, but it's not useless.
David
One needs the ridership figures for all the stations for any kind of realistic analysis of the present routing and possible changes. Suffice it to say that the combined total of 145th and 148th are less than that of any other station on the Lenox line. Now, how do the Lenox figures compare with those along Broadway? Next, how many cars per hour service each of these stations? etc., etc.
Rogers Junction (south of Franklin Avenue) is already at or VERY near its operational limit as far as Broadway-Seventh Avenue service is concerned...
Rogers Junction is not an operational problem. The terminal capacity of Flatbush is 15 tph (could be 30 tph); the terminal capacity of New Lots is 30 tph (could be 40 tph) and the terminal capacity of Utica is 15 tph. The solution is to run half the locals (7th Ave Expresses) to Flatbush the other half to New Lots. Run half the expresses to Utica and the other half to New Lots.
Of course, if the number of passengers using the Nostrand Ave Line exceeds its 15 tph capacity there will be problems. How does station use along Nostrand compare to the Hillside Ave stations, which also have 15 tph?
in short, the short-lined #3 serves a purpose.
I would have thought that having the #2 terminate at 14th and having the #3 go into Brooklyn would have been a better idea. That way route lengths would have been equalized to some extent. Also, having a shorter route for at least one Brooklyn bound express would have provided some additional reliability. A foul up between E 180th and Grand Concourse would knock out only one quarter of the Brooklyn bound service instead of half.
(Just supplying figures, not making an argument one way or another...)
1999:
Lenox Avenue Line:
110th Street: 1,625,526
116th Street: 1,569,936
125th Street: 2,549,043
135th Street: 2,787,922
145th Street: 566,358
148th Street: 583,900
upper Broadway Line:
103rd Street: 3,646,629
110th Street: 3,912,030
116th Street: 3,772,910
125th Street: 1,918,566
137th Street: 3,699,756
145th Street: 2,202,814
Nostrand Avenue Line:
Flatbush Avenue: 5,313,140
Newkirk Avenue: 2,339,291
Beverly Road: 1,209,554
Church Avenue: 2,835,898
Winthrop Street: 1,654,459
Sterling Street: 1,586,594
President Street: 870,540
Hillside Avenue segment of Queens Boulevard Line (plus Van Wyck):
179th Street: 6,890,494
169th Street: 2,299,405
Parsons Boulevard: 1,929,766
Sutphin Boulevard: 1,304,930
Van Wyck Boulevard-Briarwood: 1,638,505
I don't have the timetables handy, so I can't answer questions about cars per hour passing through the various stations on Lenox Avenue and upper Broadway. It should be noted, though, that #3 trains are now ten cars long, matching the length of trains on the #1 and #2 lines. It should also be noted that BMT-IND trains are longer and wider than IRT trains, and thus the Hillside Avenue Segment of the Queens Boulevard Line can carry more people than the Nostrand Avenue Line with the same number of trains (if that's what's being scheduled).
NYCT has continually cited Rogers Junction (for the benefit of the uninitiated, a flat junction involving the Nostrand Avenue Line as well as both local and express services along Eastern Parkway) as a reason that more Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line service cannot be operated in Brooklyn. Having witnessed operations there in both directions during rush hours over a period of many years, I have no argument with NYCT's assessment. As I understand it, prior to the 1950s NYCT minimized problems with this junction by operating only Broadway-Seventh Avenue service (no Lexington Avenue service) to Flatbush Avenue. A look at any rush hour peak direction #5 train at President Street will confirm that it would be hard to get a return to such a service pattern past the politicians.
What Mr. Bauman says about swapping #2 and #3 terminals at the south end makes sense, at least on its face. If I get a chance, I will find out why this was not done. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement that a short-lined #3 (or #2, or #1,000,000,000 1/2, or whatever one wants to call it) serves a purpose.
David
While you have the figures handy, could you post them for the 1/2/3/9 from 96th on south (in Manhattan)? Thanks.
I'm surprised that 125th has such low ridership compared to its neighbors.
Well, if it's the 125th on B'way, maybe it's because people don't like climbing up the stairways...
Was the escalator working in 1999?
I guess it makes some sense. That station is in a severe valley, so after leaving the station, anyone who needs to go a few blocks north or south has a hefty climb and would probably prefer to use 116th or 137th even at the expense of a longer walk. And west of Broadway, 125th is lightly developed while 116th and 137th have apartment buildings. And let's not forget the universities near both of those stations.
Well, OK.. :-)
1999 figures (annual ridership)
Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line, except for interline transfer points
96th Street: 10,177,783
86th Street: 5,517,088
79th Street: 4,930,211
72nd Street: 10,138.110
66th Street: 5,537,659
50th Street: 7,383,009
34th Street: 23,866,604
28th Street: 3,032,940
23rd Street: 3,877,088
18th Street: 2,418,891
Christopher Street: 3,547,443
Houston Street: 3,932,849
Canal Street: 1,726,848
Franklin Street: 1,637,177
Chambers Street: 1,637,177
Cortlandt Street: 4,913,138
Rector Street: 1,158,284
South Ferry: 4,423,714
(Wall Street: 6,259,218)
David
Thank you. Last request (really): The document you're citing doesn't list systemwide ranks, does it? (Better yet, convince the powers that be to post the document on the web for all to see.)
Either Franklin and Chambers have identical loads or your eyes wandered. (No big deal; I'm more interested in the stations up north anyway.)
It's too bad there are no reliable counts at transfer points, but that's unavoidable.
In any case, I'm somewhat surprised to learn that my home station, a mere local station, has a greater ridership than the venerable South Ferry (you know, the very station some here have proposed serving even at the expense of Lexington Avenue or Brooklyn service). Only two local stations on the line (plus probably 59th Street) exceed it in passenger count, and it and its southern neighbor combined see more traffic than either of their sandwiching express stations. It's busier than Flatbush Avenue and has 80% of the traffic of 179th Street. And people wonder why I've been calling for more local service on the line, and why I found it crazy when my train a few weeks ago ran local, as scheduled, up to 42nd, and then became an express?
Yes, it does have systemwide ranks.
1999:
96th Street: 20
86th Street: 55
79th Street: 66
72nd Street: 21
66th Street: 53
50th Street: 33
34th Street: 4
28th Street: 116
23rd Street: 88
18th Street: 144
Christopher Street: 103
Houston Street: 85
Canal Street: 200
Franklin Street: 209 (1,637,177 passengers)
Chambers Street: 65 (4,980,535 passengers)
Cortlandt Street: 67
Rector Street: 277
South Ferry: 72
(Wall Street: 44)
There are counts at transfer points, but there's no way of knowing who's going where (without a separate study) once they enter the system.
David
Thank you.
The TA could install turnstiles at platform entrances in transfer stations (to count only, not to collect fares), but numbers would be artificially boosted by people who change their minds. As well, some transfers involve the use of a third platform (1/2 or 4/5 to J/M at Fulton, 1/2 to E at PP/WTC when they reopen, 1/2/3 to F at 14th, etc.), and far more direct passengers entering the station onto one platform, from which they can transfer to others.
NYCT conducts origin-destination surveys from time to time. What Mr. Greenberger suggests, even if workable, is expensive and I'd have to say overkill.
David
NYCT conducts origin-destination surveys from time to time. What Mr. Greenberger suggests, even if workable, is expensive and I'd have to say overkill.
I think there are some techniques for getting accurate figures without doing a person-by-person count. Let me suggest one.
Every car beginning with the introduction of the BMT standards has some sort of passenger load sensing device to regulate applied brake air pressure. This device has also been linked to door closing sensor to eliminate errors induced by train motion. It does not take too much imagination to see how such measurements could be used to get some fairly accurate estimates of passenger loading on a station-to-station basis.
One could even imagine that such data could be transmitted to receivers as trains leave the station. This could provide dispatchers with realtime information of about loading on individual trains. My seat of the pants estimate is that it would cost around $10,000 to instrument each car or $60 million for the system. How much does the TA spend on origin-destination and load level surveys?
"How much does the TA spend on origin-destination and load level surveys?"
I don't have a figure available (though I seem to recall a $1 million or $2 million o/d study a few years ago), but if I were a betting man I'd say it's less, by far, than the $60 million Mr. Bauman estimates would be necessary for the system he has proposed.
David
I don't have a figure available (though I seem to recall a $1 million or $2 million o/d study a few years ago), but if I were a betting man I'd say it's less, by far, than the $60 million Mr. Bauman estimates would be necessary for the system he has proposed.
I'd certainly not be able to cost justify my proposal solely on the basis of eliminating the TA's manual surveys.
I do think that there are far greater savings to be gained from having current, accurate and exhaustive load level data. Ignorance may be bliss but it can also be expensive. The purpose for using such data would be to help the TA better deploy its trainsets to achieve a certain service level. I think that at least 3 trainsets could be eliminatined while decreasing average passenger load level. This would cost justify the project with trainsets costing in excess of $20 million.
Why do you think I knocked it down as soon as I brought it up?
I'm somewhat surprised to learn that my home station, a mere local station, has a greater ridership than the venerable South Ferry (you know, the very station some here have proposed serving even at the expense of Lexington Avenue or Brooklyn service).
The annual passenger demand of 4.4 million for South Ferry presupposes that Whitehall is also operating. One would need add the demand for both these stations to get a more realistic estimate of the number of passengers who would benefit from restoration of South Ferry service.
OTOH, if you are suggesting that 4.4 million passengers is not enough demand for service restoration, then why restore any service? Cortlandt has only 4.9 million and Rector only 1.1 million. Just build a relay stub south of Chambers with no stations. You might also consider eliminating the entire Dyre Ave line, with only 3.6 million passengers. :-)
Thanks for the information.
This raises more questions for an analysis, which will probably require the figures back up to VanCortlandt and from Borough Hall through New Lots. I still have the figures you supplied a year ago for the stations between Jackson and E 241st/Dyre, so that should cover almost everything.
There are 19 million passengers from the Bronx, evenly split between the #2 and #5. This means there are 8.5 million passengers from the Bronx, 10 million passengers entering on the Lenox, 17 million entering between City College and 96th, 36 million entering between 96th and 66th and an unknown number entering between 145th and 242nd. I'd assume that everything below 66th is a destination. The trick is how to schedule services that equalize loading, while providing a minimum level of service (tph) at all stations and minimizing expense by minimizing car-miles. One thing is clear, starting some #3's at E 180th is not where they are needed.
The Nostrand Avenue line with 16 million passengers exceeds the 15 tph threshold used with the Hillside Ave branch - especially if the smaller IRT cars are taken into account. I'd assume that the local stations of Nostrand and Kingston by themselves do not require 15 tph service. I'd amend my previous prescription to send more than half the locals down to Flatbush rather than having to TA to negotiate grade crossings at Rogers Junction.
The number of additional trains that could be sent down Flatbush is limited by the how fast they can turn around trains and what the minimum service level needs to be at the two orphaned local stations. How does passenger use compared with the G stations (6 tph)? For the record, my documents show that the BOT turned around 18 tph at Flatbush (1954). Their stub terminal record was 26 tph at Hudson Terminal (1949). Anything over 15 tph requires some creative scheduling and an exchange of crews. Building tail tracks or a relay loop at Flatbush won't help, unless the TA is willing to end its practice of taking 4 minutes to chase all passengers out of the trains.
Clearly, Brooklyn residents are paying the price for some design economies practiced by the IRT in implementing the Dual Contracts. The locals are the long lines, while the expresses are the short lines. The Utica Avenue track layout suggests that additional expansion for the Express tracks was forseen.
1999 Station (Rank)
145th Street: 2,202,814 (159)
157th Street: 2,476,138 (140)
181st Street: 1,587,120 (214)
191st Street: 1,908,503 (184)
Dyckman Street: 1,853,767 (190)
207th Street: 1,157,733 (278)
215th Street: 430,927 (399)
225th Street: 1,104,797 (288)
231st Street: 2,329,486 (152)
238th Street: 751,378 (351)
242nd Street: 1,616,479 (212)
David
I wonder why 181st and later 191st were designated all-stop stations. They have fewer boarding passengers than 145th and 157th, and the passengers boarding down there don't benefit at all from skip-stop.
The point is, of course, moot right now and possibly (hopefully?) for good.
Another fan of killing skip stop for good? That is my hope, the end of skip stop has been something I'm in favor of. I just don't think it saves any time, excpet for those at all stop stations
Look at the numbers David posted. The skip-stop stations, combined, have twice as many passengers as the all-stop stations. According to the timetable, from 242nd to 96th, skip-stop saves 0-2 minutes. The resultant increase in average waiting time at a skip-stop station is about 2.5 minutes, so there is a net increase (on average) in commuting time to all skip-stop passengers, even those way up north. Half of the all-stop passengers come from the three consecutive Manhattan stops and skip only one station, so their time savings are negligible. The only people who benefit -- on the order of a minute or two -- are those from 231st and 242nd. And I haven't even accounted for the preferability of waiting on a train over waiting on a platform. (There are more seats on the train, the train is climate-controlled, the train is safer, and passengers on the train don't have to worry about when their train will finally arrive.)
Skip-stop simply doesn't make sense.
The J/Z may be a different story -- it is a longer line and boarding patterns may differ. I don't know if skip-stop makes sense there.
Thanks for the information.
I've plugged the numbers into a spreadsheet and run a couple of what-if scenarios. Here goes, subject to the standard garbage in - garbage out disclaimer.
There are approximately 90 million passengers using the West Side lines from 66th St to points north, annually. They are distributed as follows: Bronx 11%; Lenox Ave 11%; north of 96th 38% and between 96th and 66th 40%. The split north of 96th is 63%/37% in favor of Broadway; the routing is 50-50. It would appear that there could be better resource allocation.
With the present routing the #1 is exposed to 61% of the passengers with 50% of the resources; the #2 is exposed to 27% of the passengers with 25% of the resources and the #3 is exposed to 12% of the passengers with 25% of the resources. That's a fairly expensive "filler" for the #3 resource-wise.
Suppose the #2 and #3 were reversed (#2 express to 14th and #3 local to Brooklyn). The passenger exposure for the #2 would decrease to 21% and the #3 exposure would rise to 18% with the #1 being unchanged. This is a step in the right direction but the bottom line is that the upper Broadway branch needs help and the Lenox and Bronx branches are comparitively over-served.
Suppose that the #2 and #3 were reversed as before but half the #3's terminated at Bway-137th instead of Lenox Terminal. The #1's passenger exposure would be reduced to 58%; the #2's would increase to 22%; and both branches of the #3 would be 10% bringing the combined #3's exposure to 20%.
I think that further tinkering will come up against two constraints. Service out of Lenox 145th and 148th has been reduced to 8 minute intervals. Clearly, more service is required along the upper Broadway. There is not much more room for diverting more #3's from 148th without defacto closing these stations. Another approach would be to extend the #3's to Dyckman as the terminal. This would increase the number of trains required for peak service.
Also, any return to using either 137th and/or Dyckman as terminals would require relaying. This comes up against the TA's relay fumigation policy. They are going to have to use extra T/O's for the relay to avoid contaminating TA personnel from wayward passengers during a relay.
One interesting note. If the TA did not reduce the number of upper Broadway trains, then they should be operating more than 30 tph between 96th and Franklin Ave. If this is the case and they did not reduce the number of Lex expresses going into Brooklyn, then the Brooklyn terminals must be very busy. The TA may want to consider turning some Lex expresses at Bowling Green/South Ferry to avoid horrendous Brooklyn terminal backups.
Remember that these schedules were put together in a hurry using whatever information was available at the time. As things get regularized (and the work gets "picked" by train crews), refinements can, and probably will, be made.
David
Remember that these schedules were put together in a hurry using whatever information was available at the time. As things get regularized (and the work gets "picked" by train crews), refinements can, and probably will, be made.
Actually the pre September 11th routings had a worse mismatch of resources to demand. The comparable passenger exposure figures are: 1 - 34%; 2 - 21%; 3 - 12% and 9 - 33%. The exposure on the 1/9 combination was 67%; now it's only 61% for 50% of the equipment.
How many years did they have to "refine" the pre Sept 11th schedule? :-)
Hey...I never said the "refinements" would be to Mr. Bauman's liking :-)
David
Hey...I never said the "refinements" would be to Mr. Bauman's liking :-)
Could you tell us which scheduling criteria are to the TA's liking. :-)
BTW I'd still be curious as to how many trains they are operating on the local track between 96th and Chambers. :-)
Somehow I think the the smiley symbol has outworn its welcome in this thread. Think I'll stop using it.
As to the rest of the information, if I had subway timetables here at home I'd be happy to provide the informatin Mr. Bauman requested. I don't, and I don't have time to do the research in the office. Guess it'll just have to wait until someone writes to NYCT and asks for it.
David
Just to further muddy the waters, not every train on the local track -- especially on the 1 -- makes local stops.
Having split 1/9 service like you suggest is an interesting idea, but in addition to the shortcoming you give, it would also result in 2 and 9 trains crossing paths north of 96th.
well there is abot 2 #3 trains at 239st yard running to newlots and of course you have your 4 #3 trains at 180st. so the #3 also comes to bronx.by the way i saw 4 #3 trains at 180st along with one r62a on the 5 in the yard
r142man
Seventh Ave Express
If the Second Avenue line only have local stations all the way then is express service a plus?
no, in this case express service would probably be a good idea - imagine a slow crawl up from Whitehall to 125 during the PM rush - with horribly long dwell time, all of this being in the middle of July...gonna be pretty bad, eh?? Also, if @nd ave is going to be part of the B/Div, then what is it going to connect to in the Bronx?
I would think the Bronx portion would run alongside Amtrak on the Northeast Corridor as far as 177th Street. Then it would be connected to the remnant of the old Westchester & Boston line and continue to Dyre Avenue. That was the proposed Bronx routing back in 1968, just a few years before construction began on the four short tunnel segments in Manhattan.
1. You put this in response to a post that had nothing to do with the 2nd av line, making it a bit confusing.
2. You responded to David J. Greenberger, the poster who would blindly support local service to his grave (he'd probably want to sawp the "A" and "C" lines someday, if not now)
3. The present plan is for the second av line to be a local line. I don't agree with that, but there are 2 things to consider:
A. Local only service is better than what we presently have there.
B. IND stops are spaced further apart than BMT/IRT stops.
I was using the Second Avenue line as an example for my question.
I'm assuming the question is:
Is express service a plus?
Yes. Now, you want to know why, right?
1. A pair of local tracks can only support a limited number of trains. (normally 30tph, or a train every 2 minutes). However, certain lines may need more trains than that. The only practical way to do that is to add another set of tracks. (CBTC can also be added).
2. Certain stations will get lots of ridership, while others won't. Express trains allow passengers from heavily used stations to skip the lesser used stations, thus saving time. (don't care how little time it saves, 3minutes can make a difference between a missed transfer).
3. When coming from waaaay out in the boros, few people will need to get off before manhattan comes. Express service provides more efficient service to people who live far away from manhattan. (A train to rockaways, F to Hillside, etc.)
Express trains are very useful. They also seem to make less crowding on the local train that they run express to. This can be evidenced on the 2,3,4,5,A,D,E,F and other express lines.
Come again?
Are you asking if 2nd Avenue should have express service? Yes, certainly. The primary purpose of express tracks is to provide more capacity than local tracks alone could provide. Not every station needs the full service of four tracks, so two tracks bypass some stations.
All I'm saying is that we shouldn't dump more and more service on the express tracks while starving the local stations. First provide enough service for the local stations; then, if there's still demand for additional service at express stations, run express trains as well.
Will the V train still start in November? With all the stuff going on, I thought the TA might hold it off for awhile.
I say hold it off until the spring. Too many people are already confused in light of what's been going on in the subway during the last three months.
THe V train start has been postponed for at least several weeks. The TA wants to concentrate on getting N/R service going again.
V service is now officially slated to begin on Monday, December 10th (subject to change again).
Does this mean that the start of the pick has been pushed back as well? Inquiring minds want to know.
See Zman's thread, "NEW PICK TO NOW START ON DEC. 9TH"
Yeah, I found it - after I posted.
where did ya hear this? (just curious...)
And where will the "V" train be going?
Michael
Continental to 2nd Ave.
I see a 2nd Avenue (Lower East side) stop on the F. Where is Continental Avenue? I don't see it on the Sept. 19 map.
Michael
71st/Continental Avenue is in Queens on the Queens Blvd. (E)(F)(G)(R) (or (Q)).
:-) Andrew
Was a final decision ever made regarding the G's Queens terminal? I recall community activists wanting the 71st Av turnaround retained.
G terminals in Queens after December 9:
Court Square rush hours (moving sidewalk available to facilitate transfers to 23rd-Ely)
Continental Avenue other times
David
Personally here is how the service should be:
V: 179th Queens to Second Avenue (Via 63rd Street), making following stops : (after departing 179) Parsons Blvd, Union Tpke, Continental Av, then all local stops to 36th Street, 21-Queensbridge and all 63rd Line Stops, local on 6th Avenue to Second Avenue (make the F a 6th Av express)
G: Operate as current (Continental Av. to Smith-9th Mon-Fri 5am-8pm, Court Square weekends and late nights)
Along Queens Blvd. local trains out of Continental can operate in the following frequency (giving all is normal....and we all know things get hairy in the Queens Division in the rush hours): V, G, R*, V, G, R*, and so on (*-denotes when R service is reinstated)
Well it won't because the jobs are posted and being picked by personell!
Assuming normal service (i.e. 9/11 didn't happen), there isn't enough equipment to send the V east of Forest Hills nor south of Second Av. However, with some 200 R46's piled up in Jamaica yard, there is. But then, how do you start up such a service now and then when the N/R get restored, say never mind ?
I thought the G was to be cut to Court Square weekday middays as well. (In other words, it will terminate at Court Square precisely when it continues past Court Square today and vice versa.)
The G will run to Court Square Mon-Fri 6:30 am to 8:30 pm and to Continental Av all other times.
Compared to what NYCT had originally planned, I think this is the better service choice for the G.
Will the moving sidewalk at 23-Ely be built by then?
It's being built now. From what I understand, construction is well underway.
David
Is the conductor REQUIRED to use the automatic annoncements? Can he/she decide to make the announcements manually if they wish, or is there some kind of rule? If I was a conductor, I'd rather announce myself.
Yes, AFAIK, the conductors are REQUIRED to use the automated system, IF it is working....hehehe
Peace,
ANDEE
I forget what AFAIK is.
OH! As Far As I Know. Better put the bong away for know. (Just kidding.)
No...the conductor can use manual announcements (I don't know if there is a rule to do so) because the on the first run the T/O may calibrate the train stop to stop as station announcements are made in measurements of feet (distance - determined by existing wheel diameter) and sometimes it's off cal. There are a bunch of presets like 'don't hold the doors' but I like the last stop one best. 'Watch the closing doors' is a button next to the door operation buttons. Hey, I'm learning too and it's a lot of fun so don't tell my barn supers. Peter
Yea, I was watching a C/R working a R142 on the 2, there's a red button next to the intercom console that says Door Warning, you hit that, wait till it stops and then close.
It's more fun hitting the button when you open the doors. Peter
Good point! :-)
Seriously, when checking car doors and indications it is important to make a MANUAL voice message as car maintainers and inspectors may be working close to or against a door. One of our maintainance pits is really not.....it is a trestle.....and someone left a milk crate to step on when climbing down from the train off the ladder onto the track to reach your foot down.....and the crate tipped over when my foot was placed upon it.....and I hung on and dropped. Longer if you fall out. Peter
You know it's funny. The TA preaches safety, but then you see things like this. Trying to climb down from one of those pits with high tracks can be quite interesting when the rolling stairs aren't present.
Vapor or Alstom moved it away....it's a long walk through the cars and back around....I'm learning....and still don't like the TA shuffle. The 'three esses of safety.'
This morning, at Grosvenor-Strathmore, its orange brake regenerator light stayed illuminated during the station stop. Once the train was put in motion, it went out.
These lights are on the left side of each car as you face its blind end. That means on a 6 car train, there are 3 lights per side. The light on 1049 (the 4th car) and the 6th car (number unknown) were off.
At Friendship Heights, the train pulled in as I came down teh escalator so I couldn't see the lights then.
I was wondering if any New Yorkers on the board are afraid at all to take the subway. Do you regularly think about the possibilities of what could happen? I take the subway every day, and not one ride goes by where I don't think about it. I wanted to know if anyone else here feels the same way? Do you eye suspicious looking people in your car?
Especially after the latest press release today from the FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/skyfall.htm), my nerves are getting increasingly frayed being in the city, especially in the subway.
For me the scariest thing is going through the river tunnels. I always imagine a bomb going off under there, causing the whole tunnel to flood. Am I just being neurotic or do you guys think about this also?! What do you think are the chances that something like this could happen? What about a biological attack? It just seems so easy for someone to pull off.
I know, I know, everyone says you have to live your life, etc, or the terrorists will win, fine, I do that. But I still can't help thinking about it. The subways get me thinking the most, because if something happens down there, there's really nowhere to go.
So, how do the rest of you feel about this?
ws
I will not give up a hobby I love for anything. If we cower in fear, then the Devil over seas has won. No one knows when they'll go, so there's no point in worrying about it. I'd be VERY afraid to visit Afghanistan now, though. Lot's of falling objects and flaming people to get hit by. Hehe. When your country is a parking lot, THEN you can call us the Great Satan, Ben Laden. Sorry to go off topic.
Ok, I know that its stupid to give it up and worry about it. But doesn't it cross your mind?
ws
I think of it as, where would I rather be:
..on an airplane that was attacked by terrorists, or
..on a subway that was attacked.
I would tend to think the survival rate would be higher on a subway, but you never know?
no, not at all. For 2 reasons:
1) I'll either be dead before I know what happens, or I'll be nearby and get my ass out of there so fast that people will think I'm the roadrunner.
2) death is certain. We all die eventually. Whether it happens now or in 20, 30, or 50 years doesn't really matter much. I'd prefer to live for 50 more years, but if I die riding on the subway today, well, it had to happen eventually. No point in destroying my way of life to prolong it for a little while.
Yes, I'm afraid, but I need it to get to and from work.
Yes, I'm afraid, but I need it to get to and from work.
Exactly how I feel.
-----Andrew
I feel almost exactly as you do. I just TRY and deal with it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm just going about life as normal. What are you going to do? It's either gonna happen or it isn't.
Geez, my Ukranian / eastern bloc roots are showing, I sound just my grandmother did.....
Grandma was pretty smart.
I think the attitude toward risk is going to shift in the wake of September 11. As the U.S. got richer and more serious risks (ie. epidemics that killed at age 20) receded, the middle class moved on to attack smaller and smaller risks.
But now I'm sucking in lungfuls of asbestos every day, everyone knows it, everyone denies it, and what can you do? Perhaps one in every 5,000 chance that everyone people working Downtown will die ten years early. That would have been a big deal two months ago. Doesn't seem like such a big deal now.
Out in the rest of the country, they're still freaking out about, say, anthrax, which is unlikely to kill more than a few hundred people per incident. For anyone who was Downtown on Sept. 11, a one in 1,000,000 chance that you will be killed in the next attack doesn't seem like such a big deal.
Just make sure you have a will, designate who will care for your children, pay the insurance premiums, and hope they pay off in the event of terrorism. And ride the subway to your damn job (which in my case is the subway).
We all stand a better chance of being hit by a BUS ... and those odds still remain pretty much as they were. The reduction of crime changed the odds over the last few years but the crime rate is back up with a different form of crime. It's all a matter of perspective.
Agreed on the will. I got my affairs in order after 9-11, and have decided to just live. Not to be too melodramatic, but I have been reminded of the phrase, "I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees". (Maybe for this board, you could subsitute "subway seat" for "feet")
I love NY now more than I ever did. As I make my way around the "Beautiful Mosaic" & beyond, I believe now more than ever the great experiment that NYC & the US is must go on. The subway is the best way to soak it all in.
Amen ... and that's exactly the attitude I meant. Many my own age lived through the extreme likelihood that we'd all go in a flash. Literally. Hate to be back in the mindset but back in those days, we had a mushroom cloud hanging over us all each and every day wondering when it would be time to "duck and cover" ... eventually you got tired of being afraid and just made the most of every day.
What we're living with now is bad, but not *as* bad ...
>>> we had a mushroom cloud hanging over us all each and every day wondering when it would be time to "duck and cover" <<<
Kevin;
It is interesting that until you brought it up, I had given no thought to those days, but you are right. Having lived through the years of believing today might end in a mushroom cloud may be the thing that now makes it hard for me to understand why so many people are so afraid of a terrorist attack.
Tom
Tom, I think the real difference between those days and now is that except maybe during the Cuban Missile Crisis nobody really expected anything to happen then. It was something that was going to happen in the distant future. Sure we went through the air-raid drills in school, but it was like fire drills. You never expect a real fire.
However, now, whether justified or not, people are nervous about the immediate future. Am I nervous taking the subway? Sure, a little. Once I read how anthrax could be released and used in the subway with the wind caused by the trains blowing it throughout the system and out of the grates onto the street I get a little nervous. Last week I had to take the "J" from Gates Av to Sutphin to get the LIRR. I wasn't nervous at all on the el but got a little queezy when it went the one stop in the tunnel. I wished they still had the old Sutphin stop!!
However we have to think rationally. Most of the fear is in our heads. We don't even know if these anthrax letters are even from terrorists. It could just be a nut like Ted Kuzinsky. If it was really terrorists do you think they would waste their time with these letters to newsmen. Do you really think Bin Ladin singled out Tom Brokaw?
As FDR said:
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"
>>> I think the real difference between those days and now is that except maybe during the Cuban Missile Crisis nobody really expected anything to happen then. <<<
Speak for yourself, Jeff. I remember very well the days growing up with regular testing of air raid sirens, instructions in school regarding huddling in the hallways, and seeing the "S" signs with arrows pointing to shelters rather than shuttles. And we as children knew that NYC would be a prime target if WW III started. We had also seen newsreels of the devastation caused by aerial bombardment in Europe and the effects of the atomic bombs in Japan. This was a full twelve years prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis, but after the Russians had exploded their first atom bomb. The threat of annihilation seemed pretty immediate to me and it made enough of an impression on me that I decided that when I grew up I would not bring children into a world where they would be likely to be incinerated before growing to maturity.
>>> However, now, whether justified or not, people are nervous about the immediate future. <<<
I frequently visit the VA medical facility in Los Angeles where I meet veterans who got their CIBs in WW II and Korea. It seems without exception that those who huddled in holes in the ground during an artillery barrage, knowing someone was trying to kill them at that moment, and would try again the next day, have much less concern about a possible terrorist attack than many of later generations who have never faced death. These vets recognize that another terrorist attack is possible but realize the individual risk to themselves is too small to bother with. They use the expression, "Don't sweat the small stuff."
Tom
Tom - just an aside - when I worked for the state, I had access to historical documents that had been unclassified. Most interesting part of it was information culled from the KGB. New York City was NEVER going to be a target! The Soviet strategy was that they were going to blow the crap out of the outer edges of the suburbs instead, particularly New Jersey, Long Island, Southwestern Connecticut and Rockland, Orange and Dutchess.
This would in effect cut off New York City from all of its various supply routes and keep us busy trying to supply NYC. This illustrates yet another difference between the cold war and the current situation where the Russians were planning to take us out, whereas these clowns are going solely for the symbolic and let us do it to ourselves. Sadly this latter strategy is WORKING and that's the pity to it. We're doing ourselves in.
Clearly, you can't compare the strategy of the former Soviet Union with that of the middle-eastern murderers. First, the Soviets had expansionist desires whereas the the latter seek only to kill people and destroy any society that it blames for the suppression of Islam. By comparrison, the muslim fundimentalists are idiots. They have forgotten one basic rule:
If you continue to pull the tiger's tail, have a plan for what you'll do when the tiger turns around.
For concern that continuing my thoughts will only get THIS thread killed off also - I'll merely say that the most serious mistake we can make is thinking these people are idiots. They did their homework and the course of action they've chosen has worked very well in having millions of Americans shaking in their boots for no good reason. We MUST resist giving in to their fear campaign.
They have a certain techno-cultural stupidity -- the Bert-Osama poster was a classic example of that. But in the field they're specializing in -- the effort to inflict massive and random violence upon the U.S. and other western nations -- there's nothing stupid at all about bin Laden's people and we take them lightly concerning any future chemical, biological or even nuclear attacks at our own risk.
Many my own age lived through the extreme likelihood that we'd all go in a flash. Literally. Hate to be back in the mindset but back in those days, we had a mushroom cloud hanging over us all each and every day wondering when it would be time to "duck and cover" ... eventually you got tired of being afraid and just made the most of every day.
There's another difference too. Back in the days of the Cold War - the West vs. Communism - there also was the fear that Communism would spread. Remember the domino theory? People thought that one country after another would fall to the Red Menace until the United States stood alone. This fear persisted well into the 1980's, as can be seen by U.S. covert intervention in Central American civil wars.
It may be true that we're now entering into Cold War, the Sequel, namely Islam vs. the rest of the world. Time will tell if this really is true. But we can take consolation from the fact that while Communism could in theory appeal to anyone, Islam has bascially no appeal whatsoever to anyone who isn't culturally Muslim to begin with. In that sense, the "new" Cold War, should one actually begin, won't be quite as menacing as the old one.
You mean extremist Islam rather than mainstream Islam (fastest growing religion in America)?
Of course, the fact that communism sought to convert while bin Laden seems to seek more to kill makes this "Cold War" much more menacing. On a slightly different note, there was an interesting column on Oct. 6 in the Times by Bill Keller comparing this to the Cold War, but not along ideological lines--more talking about what to expect of America's actions.
Seth
"You mean extremist Islam rather than mainstream Islam (fastest growing religion in America)?"
Where does mainstream Islam account for most of it's growth in the US?
Does it come from immigration?
Does it come from conversion?
Are most of the conversions done in correctional facilities?
Damned if I know. The fact that Islam's the fastest growing religion in America is actually irrelevant to my argument--sorry I brought it up.
I'm just trying to make the point that non-bin Laden-style Islam can be quite appealing a religion, possibly contradicting another post (the first question in my post hasn't been answered). A religion doesn't spread around the world and continue to persist once any forcible coercion to convert (which was not entirely applied in any case) disappears unless people like it, after all.
Seth
"Where does mainstream Islam account for most of it's growth in the US?"
Mostly within the African American community. Many blacks see Christianity as the religion that oppressed them and are turning to Islam. Unfortunately a large number are all racist.
"Are most of the conversions done in correctional facilities?"
Both Islam and Christianity have a lare number of conversions in correctional facilities.
I guess conversions to Judeism are not big in prisons.
I think this thread is going a bit far afield. It is not the growth of any particular group that should be giving up pause for thought. Most groups eventually blend in - hence the term melting pot. Even my intern has begun to change slightly. She wears a scarf over her head on the subways now and she's even carrying pepper spray for protection from the ignoramouses among us.
Where does mainstream Islam account for most of it's growth in the US?
Mostly within the African American community. Many blacks see Christianity as the religion that oppressed them and are turning to Islam. Unfortunately a large number are all racist
It's also a gender thing. Many black males find Christianity a bit off-putting because black Christian churches, to a considerable extent, tend to be female-dominated. Islam, whether of the Black Muslim or "mainstream" variety, is of course about as male-dominated as anyone could imagine.
As long as we're talking about race, it's interesting to note that Islam in most of black Africa (the Sudan is the major exception) tends to be less extreme and fundamentalist than Arab or Asian Islam.
Where does mainstream Islam account for most of it's growth in the US?
Does it come from immigration?
For the most part. Immigration, in this context, includes the population growth that occurs when immigrants have children.
Does it come from conversion?
Are most of the conversions done in correctional facilities?
There may be some growth resulting from conversion, which generally means the Black Muslims - who indeed do a lot of recruiting in prisons, and amongst other members of the lumpenproletariat. There may also be some conversion activity among white American women who marry Arab or other Muslim men.
>>> mainstream Islam (fastest growing religion in America) <<<
Keep in mind that because of the relatively few Muslims in the United States, it does not take very many new members to become the fastest growing religion.
Now that I have started my religion, the Church of the Very Rich (just send money and you will be forgiven for whatever you do to others to earn your money), once I get another member we will have a 100% one day growth rate! :-)
Tom
Now that I have started my religion, the Church of the Very Rich (just send money and you will be forgiven for whatever you do to others to earn your money), once I get another member we will have a 100% one day growth rate! :-)
L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, once quipped that the best way of getting rich quick is to found one's own religion. His own experience proved the truth of that statement.
>>> Islam has bascially no appeal whatsoever to anyone who isn't culturally Muslim to begin with <<<
I guess you've never bought any bean pies in Harlem. :-)
Tom
It's on my mind too, and it causes me to ride a little less. But not to ride at all is giving in to the terrorists. But psychologically the threats definately take alot of enjoyment out of railfanning on the subway.
Doesn't scare me.
We must be brave. When the guy tried to firebomb a train of R62s on the Lex the question came up "What if it had been the river tube?" The press had the answer that the tubes would have been safe.
Sure there may be the danger of some terrorist act involving the subway system but you are not safe at home either-- dorm ntu could breal into your house. Look at the Post Office-- Peopl;e have been kiled by nuts at the Post office, People were killed at fast food restaurants including one in Flushing in Queens (NYC!).
I do not know the security plan details and wont rveveal specifics of what I have personally seen but suffice to say that police presence of many station platforms at all times in a fixed location. Please do not ask me which stations I have seen that have a permanent police presence- I wont answer--on-site or off-site. What I will say is they do have key locations covered. Even our secuity has been enhanced-Police even ask us for ID and we now must wear our photo ID Pass on top of our outermost layer of clothing, photo side visible. Police are also removing customers loitering in stations- even if we dont call. Police are also riding more trains and in full cab trains, they knock on the cab door, Id themselves as police and ride with the T/O.
Do not let the terrorists win by shutting yourselves in a hole. We must be brave. Continue to ride the subway but be aware--
Anything suspicious tell the Conductor, Train Operator, any Transit employee or a police officer. We'd rather err on the side of being safe than sorry. Train crews and all Supervisors carry radios and S/As have the EBCS/ Cleaners would go to the booth and we'd hit the EBCS. Of course, police have radios.
Fear or apprehension? I've never been afraid on the subways. I always had the normal concerns, however. Suprisingly, I don't give it as much thought now as I once did. Perhaps it's because we think we've seen the worst.
One incident I will relate, where I actually did have a bout of significant fear took place a month or two before the WTC murders. I was on an uptown #4 from Grand Central, heading for the Bronx at about 7:45AM. The train was packed to capacity. Standing not 3 feet from me was a Muslim gentleman. Well dressed, long beard and muttering the words as he stood face to face with me, reading from the Koran. For whatever reason, I went cold, I said this MF is gonna pull a grenade or something. Of course he didn't and I felt foolish for thinking it but we don't always have control over our thoughts.
Fear is an important natural defense. We use it to guide us - we shouldn't let it rule us.
Not afraid to ride, in fact the idea of worrying about it never even enters my mind when I am waiting or riding on the subway.
I work in Downtown Brooklyn and I live in Manhattan. I worked at WTC and the vicinity up until April. Although I was extremely concerned about friends and old colleagues one of my first thoughts was "I hope the subways are running so I can get home". I did not relish walking across the Brooklyn Bridge and then walking the remaining 5 miles home. As soon as my office heard that the F and A trains were back in service, four of us Manhattan-ites decided it was time to go home. That ride is the only time I thought something might happen on the train. But I think I was expecting hysteria from fellow passengers but even that didn't materialize.
Hmm,
Did anyone notice that the URL for that press release from the FBI was called "skyfall.htm"?
Soon after the URL was posted, it was changed to a more generic name "101101.htm"
This is the FBI's response: (full story: Daily News)
Storm of Airplanes
This week, a spokesman for Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaeda network warned that the terror was just beginning. "America must know that the storm of airplanes will not stop," said Bin Laden deputy Sulaiman Abu Ghaith.
At an Oct. 2 CIA briefing, the Senate Intelligence Committee was told there was a "100% chance" of a retaliatory attack once the U.S. struck Afghanistan.
Yesterday's alert was posted on the FBI's Web site on a page dubiously dubbed "skyfall."
"It's a typographical error," said a harried FBI spokeswoman, who was fielding dozens of calls. "There is no connection between the name and the content. It's a mistake."
IOW, the FBI's webmaster said "Great, another 'the sky is falling' press release, let's name the file appropriately" and has now been reprimanded.
("Great, another 'the sky is falling' press release)
Sounds like Ron in Bayside's review of my posts on the economic effects of 9/11.
Great, another 'the sky is falling' press release
Sounds like Ron in Bayside's review of my posts on the economic effects of 9/11.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your posts were pretty gloomy. Not that I should talk, what with my "Stock sellers should be executed for treason" posting. Anyway, everyone should wait a while before pronoucing the city's economy dead (or in fine health, for that matter).
By the way, where has Ron from Bayside been lately? He's as AWOL as American Pig.
Have Ron and Pig ever posted at the same time?
In general, I feel mostly as safe as before Sept 11 on the subway. I'm enjoying the new reroutes ie Q to Qns Blvd, J to 95th, stuff you don't see often. The only thing I don't like seeing is the garbage bags on the platform b/c I don't know if there's a bomb in one of them. Also, anybody with any kind of turban or such on their head, I usually keep an eye on, especially if I'm at the railfan window and one of them comes up from behind me to look as well.
The only thing I don't like seeing is the garbage bags on the platform b/c I don't know if there's a bomb in one of them. Also, anybody with any kind of turban or such on their head, I usually keep an eye on, especially if I'm at the railfan window and one of them comes up from behind me to look as well.
Almost all turban-wearing men are Sikhs, whose practice a different religion than Islam. Sikhs don't always get along with Hindus in their native India but have no problems with any other religions.
yeah, sorta, see, here in DC, they removed all the trash cans(!) which is an inconvinience that doesn't really make me feel any safer. I mean some idiot holding a bag with some chemical/bio crap inside could spread it all along as well...
Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done about a suicide bomber or someone willing to infect themselves with some deadly disease on the subway other than the police and FBI foiling the plot before it's carried out. But going by the story that came out last week -- that some of the terrorist accomplaces to the pilots on the four hijacked jets may have not known they were on suicide missions -- the number of followers of bin Laden in the U.S. willing to die for his cause may be less than originally thought.
One of the planes had a terrorist with a fake bomb strapped to him. He probably thought he was just helping with a traditional hijacking; he had no idea that his ruse was close to reality.
"But going by the story that came out last week -- that some of the terrorist accomplaces to the pilots on the four hijacked jets may have not known they were on suicide missions"
Where did you hear that story?
Like everyone said, Life is too short. If Any of us get to live to 100 considered that as "A life of luck that was given to u by god." Eventually, No one will ever know when they will die or where they will die. There is no prediction when life will eventually end for all of us. The innoncense who were at WTC and at the plane on 9/11 never knew that their life had ended so soon.
I usaually take the J to/and from Manhattan. The scariest part that had brought to my attention was that a jumbo jet from nowhere came crashed the willy b where the train is standing- Just like plane rammed into WTC.
If that was the case that happened which took away my life along with other. I considered that as "a life with no luck given to me and others by god." or "Ended life without no prediction."
I haven't ridden the subway since 9/11, but I don't think I'd be worried.
Our cleaning lady at the office says she's scared, but not of the terrorists. She's scared that she'd get trampled if the crowd stampeded, or that if there was a fire there'd be insufficient exits for everyone.
Hello there!
This past weekend I had the privelage of being in New York to attend my cousins wedding! I had a fun time while I visited there between Thursday Oct 4th thru Monday the 6th, Even better was that I was able to do some SubwayFanning while I was there! My main objective was visiting all the homes and residences that I remembered while living there, and am happy to have visited All of them! At the same time, I got quite a bit of video and footage of the new things on the subways that I found. Below is a brief summary of some of the things I encountered:
- At the Howard Beach station, I witnessed an Airtrain in action! Apparently they were testing the train and the tracks. I was bummed that I didnt have my camera out fast enough as it was pulling out of the station and my little Largan digital camera wouldnt get ready fast enough. Funny how they look alot like the old rounded bullet Camper trailers of the 1950s!
- While waiting to go to Rockaway, I overheard a few transit workers talking about the upcomming construction that will be done to the station: They had mentioned that a New overcrossing will be built at the station, right where the new Airtrain station currently terminates. This new Overcrossing will replace the existing one, and allow for passengers to be able to walk up from either platform of the Subway and transfer over to the Airtrain. I sure hope they have an Escalator or an elevator to help those people with luggage!
- There now exists a Test Track on the south side of the track on the hassock between Broad channel and the Howard Beach bridge! Also, there is now a short siding on the north side of the tracks right next to the Broad channel station that can hold a 10-car train on the north side, where the S can now turn around.
Comments:
I >LOVE< the 7 Day passes!!!! The one I bought paid itself off that friday as I got on and got off at the various stations visiting places! Thank You MTA!!!
Why in the World are they painting the El over Broadway and New Utrecht Aves in Brooklyn that AWFUL awful dark green color??? Yuck!! The Leafy-Brown color of the Els on Jamaica and Liberty aves look MUCH better!
It would be a REALLY NICE THING if the MTA were to provide a Subway Shuttle Bus (Even if only One little bus) from the Brooklyn Army Terminal directly over to the 59th Street subway station so that one could have easy access to the Lower Manhattan ferry there. If I were still living on New Utrecht and 72nd, I would sure use it!!!
Anybody know whats going to become of the old Plaza at the entrance to the Stillwell Ave station in Coney Island?
Its so Cool how the MTA is propegating Artwork along the system!Definitely an interesting bit of Artwork at 111th Street in Richmond Hill, Queens :) The big head sticking out the side of the station is just sooo out-of-this-world looking! When did the Giant spider hanging from the Signal Tree on the old LIRR Rockaway row first appear? its Perfect for halloween!!!
What a difference on the Franklin Ave Shuttle! My Gosh! So much nicer to travel on it now than back before 87!!
I should have some Photos of my journeys available soon, I dont remember anything else off the wall that I saw, but I tell you that going back to the Subways after reading the information provided on this Wonderful site here REALLY made it That much more of an enjoyable experience!!! :)
Stego, who really needs to voice some opinions to the local Transit authority here in Southern California.... No public busses NOR any shuttle connector to the Train Station... BAH!!! I had to take a $15 cab ride from Ontario Airport to the Metrolink station here when I got back!!! Then, I MISSED the train and had to wait TWO and a HALF HOURS for another one!!! Gosh I got spoiled wit the ease of transit back east... (They killed off the Omnitrans Busses going to the Rancho Cucamonga station because "It was attracting the wrong element".... AIGH!!!!! Theyre all INFANTILE over here!!!!)
The new pick has been officially reset to begin on Sunday, December 9th. V service will begin operations on Monday, December 10th.
What new pick??? Car Maintainers B, Cleaners, RCIs or what?? Its Oct 18th or something....same day start and end. Peter
Zman is speaking of the BMT T/O and Conductors pick. I also got this from RTO pick section today, but that is subject to change. If the Tranport Workers Union gets their demands like they did for the IRT, we will also be repicking for a General Pick, consistiing of tricks, regular days off, Holidays etc. Currently, the existing pick will be extended for the B division, carrying currently selected holidays over until December, and the IRT will begin picking for a general pick on or about November 12.
Tanx........I hadn't had my personal time or Saturdays off for years in private employment. New C/I s had no status....the list used SSI numbers and I found a mistake....do 7 to 3 M to F RDO S/S and I know it won't last. Peter
Sorry that I didn't word it better. So you're in CED?
Took a moment to decipher.....CED.....yes.....I like it a lot. Peter
Check this one out: PEBR and it's not in the Bomb paperwork or on the computer.......Passenger Emergency Brake Release
The A division is set to repick on Nov 19. It is set to go into effect on Dec 23.
Effective on December 9th, the Grand Street Shuttle will no longer have a C/R on board and will be an official OPTO run. However, the it will be run in the same fashion as the Grand Central Shuttle on the IRT in which the train will be double-ended by two T/O's. They will alternate the door controls at each stop.
You thinking what I'm thinking? Wrong side madness? On a run THAT boring, it's bound to happen.
Boht platforms are on the "east" side. You could just cut out the "west" side door controls.
Now that wouldn't be any fun. Is there still a CDO breaker behind you these days or is it something more exotic? Like perhaps a two man game of whackamole with the enablers knowing that no one's on the train besides them anyway? The mind drools at the possibilities. :)
I can't help but think of the good old days when conductors assumed the position between cars. You'd climb onto the step plates and see a tiled wall or a row of I-beams and - whoooooooooops - wrong side!!
Or columns slapping your beard. The clue was there if your eyes were open. :)
Sounds like a Darwin Award category.:-) You didn't have to lean out very far to get bonked.
Whatever it was, it DID keep you from opening the wrong side. I never heard of it happening back in the prewar car days. That's one of the reasons why hearing of it nowadays, it's hard to believe. Clearly it's happening and if the MTA is interested, reverting back to the old days with the conductor hanging from the side of the car might solve the problem. :)
Did conductors ever fall between cars? I don't remember ever hearing about that in the '60s and '70s when the R1/9s were still around. Those footplates were narrow, and I wouldn't want to be on them with snow or ice.
I cam close to it myself when one of the plates dropped off when I stepped on it (it had been loose the whole ride up and had just gotten used to it being that way when it let go) but no, I'm not aware of anyone falling down, certainly not while I was on the railroad. You had plenty of grab irons, and you KNEW to use them. And yes, they were slippery as all getout, even worse in the rain than in the snow and ice.
Whoops ... that shoulda been DCO (door cutout) breaker ...
Go OPTO
You count funny. I can't make Grand St, B'way/Lafayette and W 4 St come ou to 'both'.
1...2...5 no! 3 (4 shall thou not count)
okay, I guess I do count funny, but the Grand st shuttle just goes between Bway/Laf and Grand on B4 only. Both platforms are on the same side.
The shuttle was originally stated to go Grand - Bway/Lafayette. After community protests it was extended to West 4 street. After 9/11, it was cut back to its original length.
The shuttle was never extended; the other shuttle is in the way. It was scheduled to be extended on November 11; presumably that's been pushed off a month along with the V.
Correct. Shuttle service will be extended to West 4 Street on December 9th.
It already happened in early August. The C/O dezoned (or wan't even on the train) while moving and the T/O pops the doors in terminal. He was used to bing the north end and one day he was the south and opened the wrong side.
The T/O was fired maybe the C/O may have survived.
Door enablers to the rescue! Then EVERYBODY hits the street. :)
Yeah, heard about that little ... episode. I've done the job. Gets hypnotic after a while. That's the reason why I've done my constant whining about "ya gotta CHECK yourself" here so often. Railfans don't quite make the connection of what it is to do the same run, day in and day out, 5-6 days a week, day in, day out AND from end to end without being able to cheat and go grab another train halfway through the run. At least if ya run a bus, you can crush a Toyota every now and then to break up the monotony. Heh.
The problem is when the _checks_ get hypnotic as well. Focus is the other important factor.
The problem was you are a new guy and a senior man comes and tells you no this is the way it is really done and do a coworker a favor.
My school car TSS told us to say F%^& off if they ask but, other school car TSSs said do it.
The union is pretty quiet about the out of title nature of that move too.
I think my C/O tried to do that. He is a 20+ year man he 'forgot' 5N3S and dezoned the train for about 20 minutes, in retrospect I think he was hunting for a ABD.
Heh. He'd have loved it in the 70's ... the trains would lay down in unique ways. RCI would come on board, whack this, whack that and pronounce it dead. One fine February morning, I had a train with VERY slow doors on two cars. An RCI got on, did his voodoo and I was good to go for two more stops. At Prospect, it wouldn't close no matter what we did. RCI came up from Stillwell, got on and got sprayed in the face with WATER from one of the door valves.
Someone was naughty and failed to empty the drain on the compressor tank and the pipes had filled up with water and then FROZE. Nice stuff.
Oops!
They all ready keyed closed shout all the door one the one side. This was done when a C/R open up on the wrong side some week back.
Robert
Heh. Hasps ... padlocks ... DUCT TAPE! :)
I wonder why this wasn't done all along. Three crew members for a four-car, two-stop line (for now) with next to no passengers? For that sort of service, Grand Street should have a double fare.
or just make them pay again upon exiting the Grand St. station
That's exactly how a double fare would be implemented: pay on exit at Grand, and pay double on entry at Grand. Just like the Rockaways double fare of years past.
Effective on December 9th, the Grand Street Shuttle will no longer have a C/R on board and will be an official OPTO run. However, the it will be run in the same fashion as the Grand Central Shuttle on the IRT in which the train will be double-ended by two T/O's.
Sounds like a typical NYCT cost savings gesture. Rather than having a C/R and a T/O, they are opting for two T/O's at marginally higher operating cost.
Of course, with the elimination of the Queensbridge shuttle, they could run two Grand St. shuttle trains instead only one, as at present. Now, if they used real OPTO, it wouldn't require any more personnel to operate.
Actually, weren't they planning on extending the shuttle to West Fourth Street?
- Lyle Goldman
I'm confused...I thought OPTO was supposed to save money....I fail to see how a train crew composed of 2 T/Os cost less than a train crew with 1 T/O and 1 C/R.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yah and both T/O's get the extra $2 for being in OPTO service. I agree where is the savings in that?
There were 2 T/O's AND a C/O so they are saving money.
I smell it when I get to Canal street. It's in the air all over Manhattan. It gives you a headache at the very least. But the heartache it gives is much worse.
is it true it smells like everything from burning plastic burnt electronic smell rotten eggs all in one ??
also burnt just about everything smell as well ??............
Uh no, just burning steel mostly...
When I was first exposed to it.....I didn't recognise it at first.....cremation ashes covered a car that made it up to my neighborhood on the upper east side before a clogged air filter ended the trip. I was one of the first to cross the Brooklyn Bridge.....and I thought my new six year old car (it's mint) was having a major electrical problem. I can't detect burning steel...and I stick weld. Peter
Mainly a burning electrical smell, sorta like steel welding and substation fire combined. But it's not the smell itself, but what it means and has meant that is hardest to tolerate.
And we will always remember just as our parents and grandparents remember what took place sixty years ago but not as a 'Day of Infamy' but as a day when speakers of over a hundred languages sang the same hymn and raised the same flag. I work as an inspector in a maintainance facility for the MTA where many of color, creeds and national origin have welcomed me AS FAMILY. Osama bin Loden will never understand the mistake the Japanese Empire made..........
WE ARE OF ONE FAMILY UNDER ONE CREATOR UNDER ONE FLAG. Peter
Oooh, that smell
Can't you smell that smell?
Oooh, that smell
The smell of Death's around you...
wayne
"That Smell"
Written by Allen Collins and Ronnie Van Zant
(C) 1977 Duchess Music Co. BMI All Rights Reserved
not funny at all..
We were not trying to make light of it.
wayne
I know where those famous words come from.
Simon
Swindon UK
So do I.
-Robert King
Count me in, too!
Whiskey bottles
And brand new cars
Oak tree in my way
There's too much coke
And too much smoke
Look what's goin' on inside you
Ooh, that smell . . .
It smells like burnt rubble, death, and lost there...I should know, I go to BMCC...I practically walk past that area...I can tell you exactly what it smells like...
Cleanairbus
It smells like lost souls...I meant to say that, not to make anyone queasy or uneasy or something...it is an awful smell, and the worst part is...some of that smell gets insde the vents in my college, despite clean air quality reports going around my campus...
Cleanairbus
When it gets strong, it's also alot like a burnt pot handle (you know, that hard black subtance.)
I don't smell it much any more on Water & Wall. It must be prevaling winds..
Union Square last night had it bad, prevailing wind was headed northeast bound.
I havent been in a PATH station lately, I wonder what that must be like now.
PATH stations always had a very unique smell.
LOL. Now that I think about it, when I took PATH from Newark to Hoboken (changing at Exchange Place), it did smell differently than other systems I have been on.
I could have gone to WTC that day. I was in 725 from Newark to Exchange, got off, crossed over, and saw the Hoboken train leaving, since I figured I would be able to go again another visit. Sure enough, the next train to come in is lead by 725. Oh well. I guess I'm not seeing the pre 9/11 WTC PATH station...
It depends not only on the winds, but on the fires and smoke. Sometimes when they move stuff off, fires that had been smoldering without oxygen flare up again.
My impression, however, is that they are aware of this, and do the big stuff nights and weekends. The smell is stronger in the morning, esp. Monday morning. There was a big wail of pain a Friday or two ago, when the smoke got much worse for the first time after having gotten better. So I think they are trying to manage that.
What's bad is the couple of days I could smell the smoke on my street in Brooklyn.
I can't bear smelling it again to tell you the truth. As long as that cloud of death smell is over Chinatown I will avoid it. Today was one trip too many. It's been a month since the disaster and I'm breaking down now. I can't bear the smell, the emptiness of what once was a thriving Chinatown anymore. Tonight it has caught up with me as I can't seem to stop crying. I'm sure you're all sick and tired about hearing how sad and depressed everyone is, but it seems the Williams Brother song "Can't Cry Hard enough" matches how I feel right now. This tragedy is just more than I can bear. Oh how I wish I had a loved one to hug right now.
Whats with you and Chinatown?
Whats with you [Qtraindash 7] and Chinatown?
Check the Subbtalk Archives for "mystical girls" or "dragon clips." You'll find all you need to know. Come to think of it, you'll find much more than you ever wanted to know.
Last weekend I was down by "ground zero", or where the public was restricted to. That smell reminds me of years ago, driving on the Belt Parkway past the landfill near Pennsylvania Ave before the capped it. It's been a month and it still is a nagging reminder of 9/11.
Bill "Newkirk"
My mother was at ground zero on Monday October 8th 2001 and I believe she got a whiff of the horrible odor that is still emanating from the site of the WTC.
#3 West End Jeff
They'll be "nagging reminders" at ground zero for at least a generation ...
You can slightly smell it in western queens when it's warm out - which is why i look forward to a lot of cold canadian air this winter.
I'm in Staten Island about 15 miles south of the WTC site and could smell the smoke here for days after the attack. On the morning of the 12th my car was covered with a fine ash. Some days I had to shut my windows and run the a/c to get the smell out of my house. I still get an occasional hint of the smoke though not as strong as before.
Wow that is pretty far. The ash traveled pretty far. Are you by the mall? It's like a volcano erupted in lower Manhattan. The smell was also in an E train of R46 I rode yesterday. Since they lay up in WTC the smell gets in there. I was in the last car and some TA worker went in the rear cab, shut the HVAC down and started it up again and the smell went away.
I'm near Hylan Blvd in New Dorp. There were days that the awful smell reached Great Kills Beach.
While the cooler air masses are good for Queens, LI and the rest of NYC they are bad for Brooklyn and Staten Island, as the NW wind brings those areas downwind of ground zero. Channel 5 has a report coming up on the smell that is still plauging lower Manhattan.
(While the cooler air masses are good for Queens, LI and the rest of NYC they are bad for Brooklyn and Staten Island, as the NW wind brings those areas downwind of ground zero.)
The worst damage for Brooklyn was on the disaster day itself. They showed a picture taken from a satelite of the smoke plume running south of Flatbush Ave, between Prospect Park and the Greenwood Cemetary (ie. right over my house), and down Ocean Parkway to Coney Island. I had my upstairs windows open to air the place out -- a beautiful day forecast. I can still smell the results faintly in here.
Later, as I recall, the wind shifted and hit Staten Island. The next day, smoke "became a problem" when it started blowing directly up through Midtown and the Upper East and Upper West Sides.
The worst damage for Brooklyn was on the disaster day itself. They showed a picture taken from a satelite of the smoke plume running south of Flatbush Ave, between Prospect Park and the Greenwood Cemetary (ie. right over my house), and down Ocean Parkway to Coney Island. I had my upstairs windows open to air the place out -- a beautiful day forecast. I can still smell the results faintly in here.
Did you find any papers from the WTC on your property? Many people in Brooklyn did, from news reports I heard.
(Did you find any papers from the WTC on your property? Many people in Brooklyn did, from news reports I heard.)
We have a partially burned piece of paper. My wife picked it up at the corner, a half block away, after walking home.
Smelled it in LIC this morning. Occasionally we smell it in Tottenville, but that may be from the debris they are dumping 'close enough'
-Hank
A few weeks after it smelled like sheetrock, last Sunday at Broadway and Park Place distinctively like wet sheetrock.
Yeah there seems to be a wet smell to the air, probably from all the water poured on the fire. They are pouring it on constantly. I wonder how many gallons (or should we be talking tons) of water has been used on the rubble. This is by far the worst fire NYC has ever seen.
Yes, that combination of burnt metal and death. I must deal with it every day on my way to work at Canal & Varick St.
Just noticed the PATH has new route maps on each train, the new map shows the 33rd<->Newark, 33rd<->Hoboken, and the Hoboken<->Journal Square lines. The Exchange Place and WTC stations are not listed on the map.
Guess this means they expect the Exchange Place station to be out of service for quite a while...
either that, or those route maps are cheap to print.
It's going to be down for awhile unless they can figure out some service to and from Exchange Place.
The only problem is a lack of switches outside of Exchange Place to move the trains over.
There is a double cross over on the west side of Grove Street, but to switch trains there would create a large amount of congestion.
We'll see.................
I think there is a perfectly adequate alternative available, so they can do without it for a while.
-Hank
>>>...so they can do without it for a while. <<<
EASY to say, If you are not a regular patron of the line...
Peace,
ANDEE
I've made the trip. I can't find either station from the Mall parking lot, but it's an easy trip between the LRT and PATH stations. All they should do is make it a free transfer.
-Hank
It is a free transfer from the PATH to HBLR, between Pavonia/Newport and Exchange place ONLY, as long as you can show a PathCard. This is in effect until further notice, or until Oct. 31, I have heard conflicting reports but I hope they'll keep it free until the Exchange Place PATH station reopens.
Last Saturday's Jersey Journal quoted a Hudson County official saying Exchange Place would be closed for two years. There have been numerous parking changes made at the Grove St Station to accomodate a shuttle bus running to and from Exchange Place. While the weather holds, the army of yuppies marching up and down Columbus Drive will no doubt continue.
I noticed the new maps too. It looks kinda eerie with Exchange Pl and WTC gone and a blank space in its place. The funny part is the green route, Journal Sq to Hoboken, looks like a "U".
The April 2001 maps were still available at the stations as of last Saturday.
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's my prediction for what things'll be like five years after The Day:
1. PATH service to lower Manhattan will still be hors de combat. Partly that will be due to the extent of damage, but mostly for the reason in 3 below.
2. IRT service to South Ferry will be running again. Cortlandt Street station may or may not be back in service, I won't try to guess.
3. The World Trade Center site? Think empty spaces, high weeds, endless delays and squabbling over reconstruction plans. Given this complete lack of progress, don't expect to see any progress toward a more integrated subway network in lower Manhattan.
The city NEVER sleeps. I think PATH and the 1/9 to South Ferry will be back before then.
I would have to agree with you. Hopefully a new World Trade Center will either be under construction or even completed by that time.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm not sure about the buildings, but they have to get the PATH back.
The PATH caused many of those working Downtown to live in NJ. Either all the businesses have to leave and go to Midtown, or the PATH has to be reopened.
One interesting scenario I heard is to let the Yankees and Mets build their own stadium with their own money for both on the site. That's if the City doesn't have the jobs to build the space anymore.
The disaster has scuttled the plans for a new New York Stock Exchange. I'm not sure displacing tenants and tearing down buildings with massive subsidies was EVER a good idea, but it seems defunct now. So the WTC site is a logical site for a new stock exchange.
But the question is, given what happened, does a physical stock trading floor in a single physical location (as opposed to two computers in two different places) make any sense? I didn't think so before the NYSE was shut down for a week.
It probably would make more sense in a way to use computers to trade stocks more often rather than having an actual trading floor.
For PATH hopefully they'll get that up and running as soon as possible.
#3 West End Jeff
The trading floor is mostly a marketing tool, I think. More to the point, I think that the owners of the NYSE (a privately owned company) think it is an effective marketing tool.
It's my understanding that the new NYSE building is still a go, but delayed. But I don't know if the NYSE has signed the deal with NYC to proceed. They're giving tenants in the affected buildings on Broad Street more time to vacate. I don't think they need a trading floor based on the success of the (admittedly smaller) NASDAQ.
According to the Times, the deal is basically off, but the NYSE is sticking with the trading floor idea, and a location in Lower Manhattan. The new idea is putting the new trading floor in the new WTC, and a second trading floor somewhere else, and running both. THe somewhere else would be on another power and communications grid, but close enough that all trading could relocate there if need be.
Could computers eventually take place of the trading floor to a great extent though probably not completely?
#3 West End Jeff
Carbon life forms.....Veeger, Veeger........I think ST2...Peter
That is a very funny reply that I can't understand. Could you please explain? Thank you
#3 West End Jeff
Could computers eventually take place of the trading floor to a great extent though probably not completely?
They already can - prime example #1 is the NASDAQ. On the other hand, a trading floor is not at any disadvantage when compared to a computer system* and, for the lack of a better term, creates an "image" or "sense of place" that is wholly lacking with a NASDAQ-style system.
* = assuming, that is, an adequate backup facility for emergenices.
>>> They already can - prime example #1 is the NASDAQ. <<<
That's not really a good example since NASDAQ never had a trading floor (thus called the "over the counter" market), and was always a network of independent traders using the telephone before becoming computerized. I think I read a couple of years ago that the London (or was it Paris) exchange went to computers and got rid of face to face trading. With present computer technology the "floor" of the NYSE is an anachronism which is already bypassed by many large institutional investors who trade between themselves after hours using closing prices as a reference.
Tom
Why are people so pessimistic????????! Com'on, it's new york! People aren't just going to idle around, hoping that everything can be fixed in a matter a 2 seconds. People are going to get the WTC back up, restore subway service, and probably be well on it's way to some other project...a West Side Subway would be nice
5 years from now, I'd bet on a new plan being agreed upon, with minimal construction. That area will be a mess for many many years.
Hopefully a new World Trade Center will either be under construction or even completed by that time.
: ( It would be very sad if the new World Trade Center were some silly gig of 4, 50-story buildings.
The WTC should be built exactly as it was. I have too many memories to pursue it. The Manhattan Skyline, the Concourse, the PATH station, shopping mall, 107th floor Observatory Deck and rooftop observation, eating at the Sbarro restaurant established with Sbarro St. Station, and the nighttime memories there.
Also, my kids won't even have this in their lives! This is modern history folks, I want to restore it!
The buildings will not be completed by 2006, although during the cleanup, I think it would be efficient and effective if a separate group or a whole co. of architectural workers would produce the mechanism needed for the new plans, and blueprints and ideas would flow in right away. Cleanup is expected to take a year, and by Sept. 11, 2002 and beyond, the thought-process would be under way.
Is it worth it to sacrifice all those memories? Not only memories, also friends and family of the victims of the tragedy, and others?
The World Trade Center may have been a symbol, but it is a very difficult one to replace, given the various changes in building codes, finances and public attitude since it was erected, not to mention the vulnerability exposed in its destruction. On the other hand the subways were invisible but necessary to move people around the city, and very low tech but survivable construction. If replacement of the buildings is a 10 on the traditional scale, I would put repairing the subways between 1 and 2 - it will happen and probably as soon as possible.
I seriously doubt Cortland street is going to b open in the next 5 years.
Everything will be back with the start or in the process of the complex with the twin towers being rebuilt. My opinion of planned completion, in 2007.
I don't completely agree with 1, I do agree with 2, but I totally disagree with 3.
This may have been covered before. I noticed that the barrier wall at the south end of 2nd Avenue IND is gone, revealing a dwarf signal and a key-by switch above it. Are they going to put midday layups un in there?
No. Those tracks will serve a similar purpose to the tracks west of the Times Square platform on the Flushing line, namely, to allow trains to enter the station faster than a crawl.
I'd hope they keep these tail tracks clear. However, on the weekend that they were doing the "V" trials, I noticed a layup on the uptown side.
Do you think they'll enter the station more slowly if there is a train on the tail track? I know they should, but will they?
If they don't, won't they be tripped by the station timer?
No ST, as there couldn't be a train leaving the station in advance of you.
could be GT or possibly AK
My terminology may be wrong. (What's AK?) I don't think the signal system would permit a train to move at such a speed that, if tripped by a red signal, it would still hit a train in front of it. Some sort of timer enforces this speed restriction (but only when the block ahead is occupied). It's certainly not a GT, which is in effect regardless of what's in the next block. What is it?
Check out the signals page on this site.
AK = auto key-by. This is disallowed on the system, except for signals signed AK in terminals.
>>I don't think the signal system would permit a train to move at
>>such a speed that, if tripped by a red signal, it would still hit a >>train in front of it.
This is effected for EVERY signal by overlapping the track circuits that control each signal. If a signal is red, with its stop RAISED, that means there is a train in the SECOND track section in advance, with another red signal in between. If a train were to be tripped at the first signal, it would be forcibly stopped before reaching the second, occupied, section.
GT's are used when some aspect of the terrain (grade?) calls for restricted speed at all times.
ST's are used to CLOSE IN FOLLOWING TRAINS at stations. When a signal dispays the ST aspect and then clears for an approaching train after X seconds, it is "proven" that the train is travelling at a sufficiently slower speed than normal, and the stopping distance checked ahead can be reduced. So if the train ahead is leaving out of the station and ST has cleared, then the follower may enter without checking as far ahead as a full speed train would.
(further digression, skip if already bored or apalled)
In the case of 2nd Ave. If I remember, there are no intermediate signals between the platform entrance and the dwarves at platform end. So the checked track length of the entering signal overlaps well beyond the end of the platform, disallowing moves in even if the tail tracks alone are occupied. There is the CALL-ON, an extremely restricting aspect, which is used for trains to enter an occupied section for layup moves and such. Before the wall was gone, Call-On was the only way to get in to the 2nd Ave express tracks.
But I digress.
Dave
Understand, but a marker would have sufficed if no trains were ever to pass. I don't know how long the tails are, but since 2av is a regular terminus of the "T"-Trash line, they're thinking of stowing short trains up in the tails. The dwarf with a key switch is an anomaly.
Maybe they key by switch is for when you're gonna overrun the platform by "just a little bit" and don't want a strike mark. You could open the window and bang the switch with the slipper on the way past! ;-)
Terminal stations on the DC Metro have the same feature- extended tracks, without any third-rail, beyond the normal end of the platform. This lets a train enter thestation at a decent speed, and it has somewhere to go if it overshoots the station.
Overnight layups.
Is there room? I suppose they could just barely cram two trains per track south of the double X-over
Well they have scheduled AM put-ins out of 2nd Ave (not sure if it's two or three). I can't tell you how many they can fit without taking a look at it.
"Tracks of the NYCS" estimates 535' of tail, and the platform is likely 660', so ... the answer is, be "vewwy vewwy cawwful"
If there are only two you can just leave them on the plat or 3/4 in if you are worried about vandalism.
Or park them in the cut and double end it in to the station.
Presidential visits.
This weekend, I will probably be spending a day riding trains. That's all, just riding trains. My mom and sister are out on vacation and my father's working all week. So that means, barring homework and studying, I have nothing to do!
My best friend (hopefully my girlfriend real soon!!) is busy studying so I guess it's just myself.
My home station is Roosevelt Avenue. I've read train ride suggestions from this website, but for this weekend, does anyone have some recommendations for me as to where I should go? Or perhaps a time to catch an R-142/R-142A consist on the 2 or the 6?
I was thinking the transit museum, until I found out they're CLOSED for the next TWO YEARS.
Any and all help appreciated!
A friend and I recently took a trip to Roosevelt avenue for a trip through the 63rd street connector! I think the F is running through it this weekend as well, so you might want to take the F to 42nd street, 7 to the 6, get an R142A to your desired destination. Either way, take it back to grand central, and get a S to TS, catch a 2 R142 to atlantic avenue, take the Q home... That's my way.
The Transit Museum is closed! Can anyone give a valid explanation for this?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
"The Transit Museum is closed! Can anyone give a valid explanation for this? "
The Transit Museum is closed for about two years for a general rebuilding of the facility. From what I heard, A/C will be installed, improved lighting and displayed museum cars will be "spruced up". according to Gabrille Schubert of the Transit Museum. I'm not sure whether or not the museum will be handicapped accessable (elevators).
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not sure whether or not the museum will be handicapped accessible (elevators).
ADA compliance is high on the list, so they say.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Transit museum has been ADA compliant for a few years now.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, ANDEE is correct.
They have had a wheelchair lift located at the Court Street side of the Museum (the entrance stairway has always been there) and another from the mezzanine down to the platform.
While an elevator would be nice I think these 2 lifts are more than adequate.
"The Transit museum has been ADA compliant for a few years now."
True....But the current wheelchair access is down by the Court St. end and it leaves a wheelchair person exposed to the elements.
Bill "Newkirk"
And waiting for an elevator if it were built on the street wouldn't?
(Don't even think of suggesting that an elevator be put in 110 Livingston St building - the Bored (I spelled it right) of Education would never go for that).
Where'd this info come from?
>>>Where'd this info come from? <<<
RIGHT HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought you guys knew! I am a volunteer at the Transit museum, and it closed August 31st. Education will call me when it reopens
(thanks to your post) I knew... some didn't read.
All TM members knew about this (It took 2 years for them to finally get the project started).
If you were a member (and if not why aren't you?) you would have known.
This is a good time to get front window rides in on the #1 line. Some of the trains are running out of New Lots, with the non-sequential sets and corner cabs - not transverse. If you wait, you can get one with a window. I had to let only one train pass to do this the other day, and rode up to 242, which is a nice ride, especially the bridge at 125, the draw bridge, 207(IND) in the distance, and those cool "Railroad"-style tunnels.
Enjoy! Dave
.........Indeed, Dave.
I suggest you take the "L" to Canarsie, B42 bus to Rockaway Pier (15 minute ride) then back to the station. Then take the B6 or B82 over to the Brighton Line (Q local) to Coney Island. Then take the F to 9th street, then M back to Coney Island, then W over the Manny.
And then, after lunch....
Michael
Explore lines that you have little or no familiarity with. You probably know Queens Blvd and the Flushing line from your station to Manhattan very well, assuming you do "normal" city activities. Try the IRT in the Bronx, Brooklyn BMT lines, etc.
If the weather's nice, go to Rockaway.
I wish I could help. Some dummy posted about the new exhibits at the museum...I can't even get in officially. R142s aren't any fun if you don't have the keys to the TOD and maintainance switches so.....Jose, find the best of the city to share with your girlfriend because you are our future and my city will never be the same without you. Peter
While I'm getting phase 2 of my Second Avenue plan ready on my new website I just want to know which is better for the route names?
1.H,I,K
2.O,P
3.O,T,U,X(or just the T,U & X).
By the way I am going to try to reach the superintendants of the N & R lines.
H can not be used. It is used internally to refer to the IND's Rockaway Park SHuttle.
X is also used for special combination road/switching/platform jobs.
But any letter designation can be switched. Last pick, the X jobs were known as V jobs. And you know why they switched.
Why don't they just FORMALLY label the Rockaway Shuttle the "H"? They did, breifly in 1987 or so....would be easier for the public than another "S"....especially if it's already used internally.
I think they should go a little further and use "H" for ANY train going to or from Rockaway Park, and that would include a Diamond "H" for trips to Manhattan.
wayne
The (public) H actually lasted until 1992, when Rockaways service was restructured. But at the time, the H was a night-only service; at other times the C served Rockaway Park.
The A is sort of funny in that it's the only route that branches out into two separate full time terminal branches, so I can see your point about the A and H thing. All the other branches like the 5 to 238th are peak only, and carry Diamonds with them.
Of course, it would make for a funny variation of the classic old song -- - - "GO and take the H Train"
I and O can't be used, too similar to 1 and 0 {the number}. This is why they were never used.
O can be used, if 0 is not used
t-u-x, like th linux penguin.
Not "I" or "O" at all, the "I" could be confused with the #1,
and the "O" would be a bit odd inside the circle. I personally
would love to see a "Y" train, so there would be "N", "Y" and "C"
trains here!
What colors would the circles be?
I think that on the MTA plans they will use Light blue
Really? Light Blue? That would be hard to tell from the A train Blue,
I think.
possibly white
P, T, U, X, and Y are white on the R32 side signs.
White circles? R-32? What were they installed for? Speaking of which, when did the R-32s get orange Q, yellow Q, and yellow diamondQ? All at the same time, or did they do a quick retro-fit recently?
The R32's have had them for many years.
They don't have diamond Q, though.
They did back in the 80's when all equipment got new roll-signs then. I recall being on a graffiti-plagued R-32 from Ave. J when the Brighton was skip-stop, and the Q train I was on had the diamond Q. They should of put them back on the CI R-32 units when the bridge swap tool place just like all of the other CI units. Yes, they had the orange Q when for a while, it was on the 6th Ave. line, but now I don't see them, rather seeing the orange S instead.
Ya think they did a quick switch, taking the orange Q out for the orange S? And just on those R-32s asigned to 6th Ave?
The "Train to the Plane" used to use light blue, and it was nicely distinguishable from the A-C-E-H-K type blue.
The color they used on the JFK Express.
Well, there aren't too many colors left on the spectrum. Different shades of green are used on the "G" versus the 4, 5 & 6, without too much confusion...
Not if they use a light enough blue (same shade they used from 1967-1979) and maybe a black letter like they use for the Broadway Line bullets.
wayne
Light blue with a black letter in the middle
Try dark red, or maroon, with white lettering, or light blue with white ( similar to the JFK Express with the light blue with the white plane)
Actually I thought o doing either maroon or fushia.Sort of the same color as the 4 in the 1970's.
Purple is a little too similar to the 7, I think.
The #7 Purple should be made darker, more like a violet if you are going to re-introduce the "F" train Fuschia. OR make the Fuschia lighter, more like a rose color.
wayne
hmm, a pink line - - - would that be more fitting on something going through the Village?!?
Avoid using P. This has been mentioned before but think of this possible scenario at 125th St:
"How to I get to the 2nd Av line?"
"You go down those stairs and take a P".
Ok so these are the letters I cannot use:
H-Already used for the Rockaway shuttle(even though theres no H on the trains)
I-To confsing with the 1
O-To confusing with 0
P-Might be mistaken for urinating
So my only choices are the
T,U,X,Y.
I-To confsing with the 1
Actually I think that it would be more likely to be comfused with the L
The O is fine, there is no 0 to confuse it with
No one is dumb enough to do the P confusion
[No one is dumb enough to do the P confusion]
No, but it'd still sound silly.
I almost died of laughter after saying "make a left on P," in refrence to P Street in Washington, DC.
They should have used either "U" or "P" instead of the Circle Q.
wayne
P would have been better, since it is consecutive with the Q
Hehehe, if you have it be T, U and X, the computer geeks like me would call it the Linux line! :-)
Sounds awfully formal, like black tie only
Can't use T - for me, that's the West End prior to Chrystie Street.
Trade you the T for the W.
You KNOW THATS how I feel !!!
F-U-B-A-R, the recognised stamp of government acceptance. Peter
By the way I am going to try to reach the superintendants of the N & R lines.
Why? Is there something I missed? As for 2nd Ave designations, what's wrong with 10, 11, 12...?
The Second Avenue line is going to be an IND line(though IRT type trains are extremely faster than ND trains).And I wan't to get inside information about the N and R(I'm sorry but I need my Broadway express).
Didn't know 2nd ave was going to be IND. If you get info on the NR, I guess you'll post it, right? ... even though the N and R aren't Braodway express...
10,11,12 should not be for the 2 ave subway because numbers are only for IRT types.
Also, i think 11 is set as the IRT flushing type, 12, and 13 are set as IRT 7th Ave, and maybe 14, 15 are IRT lex
Here is a list (at least from what I heard) concerning IRT numbers not currently used.
8: Lexington
9: 7th Avenue (was used before 9/11)
10: 7th Avenue
11: Flushing
12: Lexington AND 7th Avenue
13: 7th Avenue
14: Lexington
10 is Lex
12 is broadway
I've decided to use the H,I and K for now.Since I only have such a small expansion of lines I only need 3 for now.If I need more I will use the T,U,X,Y and O(and if it comes to it the P).
H-The last time the H was used was in the earl 1990's.
I-This line was never used at all before.
K-This line was for the Chrystie street connection then for the 8 Avenue local.
O-Never used.But If a zero train comes out then I'm going with P
P-IIRC this was to be used for some service during the Amtrak strike.And this has been the circle for jokes.Though it could be worse.
T-I really don't consider this a subway line since it served no purpose.It was the West End local for quite some time.
U-Never used
X-Only used for signal codes.
Y-Neer used.
Mr. X,
Are your really the person charged with making these decisions?
Just curious!
No.I have very little affiliations with the MTA or any other Transit company.
T-I really don't consider this a subway line since it served no purpose.It was the West End local for quite some time.
Prior to 1967 the "T" was the Broadway - West End Express from Astoria (57th St - Midday and Saturdays) to Coney Island. Today it is the "W" but it will always be the "T" to me ;-)
wait...
why can't 2nd Ave use H...just because it was used in the late 80's/early 90's...
I - May be confused w/1
K - I don't see why this can't be used
O - May be confused with 0, but saying to someone at Qb plaza...go across the platform and take a 0???
P - Can be used(No one's that stupid!!)
T - Used for West End, but i think this can be used now
U - Why not??
X - Ok
Y - Nothing wrong w/this.
As for color, use the JFK Express fromthe 80's. Oh yeah, and please, no more S's
X was proposed for a WTC-57th or 21st St. service, and was thus programmed into the R-44/46 signs.
K[K] orginally designated the #14 Bway-Blyn short line, but wasn't used until the line was routed up 6th Av.
I've speculated that P may have been for the Culver lines, except that it was reduced to a shuttle (SS) by the time the R-27 signs were printed. This could perhaps be confirmed if we could find out when and by what office the BMT letters were first assigned.
But the X was never a subway line nor the P.These subway lines are different.Why?because they never has,never been,never will be subway lines.Just because they were proposed doesn't mean they're subway lines.If the V was just a propoal then the V would be on this list of no longer or never were subway lines.
I've read some where in the original 90's version of the 2 ave subway,that the R was going to become the main trunk line for this line,the T would become the BROADWAY local. Q,R service would be the express and N,T would be the locals,with Q,V,E trains express in Queens,and F,T LOCALS.
Well, just reverse the R and N and change the T to a W and you'll have what is probably going to be the Broadway service pattern when both sides of the Manny B are back in service in four years (N, Q express and R, W local with the W ending at Whitehall). Since the N and W will serve Astoria (probably the N will run express when the W is running) and the R will operate to Forest Hills, that leaves the Q. So the Q should serve the upper section of the 2nd Avenue line, maybe operating to the Bronx. Finally the BMT in the Bronx.
The R will become the Second Ave line's Broadway branch,the T would replace R on Queens Blvd,and the Q would join as a Queens blvd express.The Y would be the Second ave main line from the 125 st to lowwer Manhattan.It didn't say what would be the 63rd/2 ave/QB service,reson givin,'' capacity''.
Oh, I didn't think that was still going to be the service plan. Plans and proposals change so much. I thought the W was going to be a permanent line and be made the new Broadway local once both sides of the Manny B are reopened. Wouldn't having the E, F and Q on the Queens Blvd express tracks cause congestion there? And wouldn't the Broadway local tracks be overloaded with the R, T and W trains there?
I doubt it would be the R. To get to 2nd. Av. it would have to switch to the express tracks before 57th, and then the expresses would have had to cross over before then. Plus, the R wouldn't have a yard again (the reason they sent it to Forest Hills in the first place).
So the R would sty put. I think the N should be the 2nd Av. branch, because his would mak it the main Broadway express again, and the Q (which stands for "Queens") would to to Astoria, switching over to the local at 34th.
What they shouln't do is reconfigure th Canal St. area, to route the exp. tracks through the tunnel. If they want 2nd Av. to have direct downtown service, just switch the north end peak N's to the local at Prince St. This was one of the 90's plans for the final bridge fully open service pattern anyway.
H-The last time the H was used was in the earl 1990's.
The H remains in use for picks.
K-This line was for the Chrystie street connection then for the 8 Avenue local.
According to TA employees, the blue "K" is being kept on newer roll signs. So...
O-Never used.But If a zero train comes out then I'm going with P
There won't be a 0 train. If push came to shove, the digits 8,10,11,12 & 13 would be used.
T-I really don't consider this a subway line since it served no purpose.It was the West End local for quite some time.
Served no purpose? It was the only West End train until the Chrystie St. connection was made.
>According to TA employees, the blue "K" is being kept on newer roll signs. So...
The new signs for the 68's went back to the blue K, but the 110 had a gray K for a proosed Canarsie skip stop. The reason they probably went back to the blue, is that Eastern Div. routes are not included on the new signs, and they probably just copied the blue K off of the old signs.
Read the front page of the site for more information.
I guess the police have a good reason for asking....
Mr. Dougherty, I'm sending in my money order REAL soon!
How was the WMATA system affected??
None such way.
So, why bother wanting their map put away?
It was effected at Pentgagon Station and National Airport which were closed for a while.
Next week, they'll be removing all the destination signs from the trains.
Removing the destination signs?? That's nothing. The following week
they remove the station signs from the pylons. Each station will be
assigned a secret code. "Stadium-Armory" will be renamed "Hospital-Jail" for security reasons. LOL
Michael
I just got the updated version. Point your browsers to http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/dcmetromap.html. Please update your links.
Jersey Mike,
Please remove my WMATA track map from your site, you DO NOT have my express permission to post ANY of my maps on your site!
Michael Adler
adler@nycsubway.org
los angeles green line metro station aviation I 105 ( airport ) train on the east west line heading west to rendondo beach...
From one Lensman to another...
why not save these bada$$ shots for the
PHOTO CONTEST (and win yourself something) rather
than posting them freely and winning nothing :(
More than fear NYC seems a pretty depressing place right now. Oh I should be in a good mood with getting my DSL, but I'm just balling. If someone gave me a million dollars it aint gonna make the people come back. If I had a wish for myself right now I just wish I had a shoulder to cry on.
(More than fear NYC seems a pretty depressing place right now.)
I agree. The rest of the country is afraid that a terrorist disaster might hit. Here, were are still down about the disaster that already has hit. There are the memorial services. There are the job losses. There are the budget cuts. Etc. Etc. The subway service/auto travel disruptions reinforce that the disaster is ongoing. Traffic is so bad, we hear, that Brooklyn and Manhattan are the only places we've been since September 11, save for a memorial service in Nassau via LIRR.
I usually try to steer away from TWU politics but yesterday's run-off election saw something very interesting occur that should have some very interesting fallout for the TWU and its members.
The TWU leadership threw its whole-hearted support to Fernando Ferrer who, as we've all heard, lost the run-off to Mark Green. Interesting now because the TWU leadership (a somewhat shakey coalition to begin with) will either be negotiating with Mr. Green or Mr. Bloomberg now. This does not look very promising in the face of a pending budget crisis and almost certain mass transit cutbacks. This does not look good for the rank and file transit worker.
On the other hand, the loss by the TWU supported candidate may actually help the rank & file in another way. With the election of Mark Green or Mike Bloomberg, Governor Pataki may be more inclined to sign off on the three transit benifit bills in Albany (next year he is up for re-election). My feeling was that if the more contentious, Bronx Boro President was the next mayor, all three bills would be circling the bowl shortly.
BTW: The three bills at last look were:
The heart disease bill
The lung disease bill
The 20/50 Pension reform bill (my personal favorite)
A couple of questions, if you don't mind: what do these bills do and will the costs be born by the TA's operating budget as part of the cost of labor?
Now that the City is broke -- again -- maybe the next mayor should announce that he is not going to interfere in labor-management negotiations involving a State agency rather than the City, that the whole thing is the governor's responsibility, and angle for the sort of emergency transit bailout that Nassau County has been getting?
In any event, it looks to me like the pie is going to be a certain size, more or less, and the more it costs per "man-hour" -- is there a more pc term for this? -- the fewer man-hours the TA will use. The TWU will have to decide whether it wants to maximize its working membership rolls or the hourly wage and benefit package for those who aren't laid off. The TWU will also have to consider whether it wants to run the risk of being seen by the rest of the City as trying to take advantage of the destruction of the WTC in order to extort more money from the public when the importance of transit has been heightened by wartime security measures imposed on automobile use. Of course, the TWU could simply decide that it has the rest of us by the throat and that it's time to squeeze. It will be interesting.
I think ND is so stupid as not to see the handwriting on the wall this time. These guys are hot to strike and it will be an embarassment.
My opinion of the TWU's move:
Bonehead.......bonehead.......bonehead.
Z man you rock...........I Bomb...adier.
'New Directions' doesn't represent us.
WE are in safety related positions. C/I Peter
Actual you are wrong. The TWU does represent you. They may not be who you want but they are your collective bargaining agents.
No, the TWU is my representative union but they don't represent the tech portion like the car cleaners/floor sweepers. I'm utility because new car inspectors don't have assignments and the old ones lose them...........give me a job under my title and I have to do it.................give a car maintainer one of the assignments under my title and he has to do it whether or not he knows what to do...........placing the safety of passengers and system in risk...............and that is one of the disparages under 'New Directions' and I know they are my collective bargaining agents and that is why I don't want to get into union politics. So Train Dude we are both right and leave it at that. I have a new home, I have new friends that welcome me and there are stupid people that put the bug on the car or discharge emergency brakes without warning.....they are isolated until they learn better or transferred to another yard....like the nice Indian guy who always smiled at me and never talked or said hello..........my crew caught him yesterday having a good time by himself.........and his brother is foreman at another yard. I'll keep laughing because this has been the best employment for me in over TWO decades. IN THE HOLE............Peter
Slow down!
(but they don't represent the tech portion like the car leaners/floor sweepers)
As a matter of fact they do. There are people who deal only with CTAs. One of the DCE organizers is a CTA from 207th Street so watch what you say. There are others who deal only with RCIs ans some who deal with the 'broad-banded' car inspectors.
As for customer safety, you are way off base. While there are broad-babded car inspectors inthe overhaul shops they are not in the maintenance shops. Whenever a car comes from the overhaul shop to any of the maintenance shops, it's thoroughly checked for proper repair and function testing. this was done long before broad-banding and continues to be the rule!!!!
Now you know why I hate the politics.......and why I'm in 239. 207 and one or two other sites are similar (probably CI yards.) You asked.....otherwise I keep my politics to myself....except when we were told to fill out all the paperwork and hand it in.....went after my Russky and Hindu brothers........give your PAC money to the religious leader of your choice for discrectionary use. LOL Peter
(The 20/50 Pension reform bill (my personal favorite)
The last thing the City and State need to do is make life better for ex-workers and worse for workers -- again.
(The TWU leadership threw its whole-hearted support to Fernando Ferrer who, as we've all heard, lost the run-off to Mark Green.)
None of the public employee unions have backed Green or Bloomberg. In some cases (teachers, DC 37), they've backed Green's opponents twice. Best case scenario -- they back one of the candidates, and the other wins, for a complete sweep. We need a candidate who doesn't owe anything to anyone, and this is as close as we can get in the field.
I think the uniformed services backed Mark Greene.
(I think the uniformed services backed Mark Greene. )
I find that hard to believe, esp. for the police.
My advice: find out who the Greater New York Hospital Association and Local 1199 are backing. Vote the opposite way.
1199 had been backing Ferrer - he gave his concession speech at their HQ.
Either Vallone or Hevasi got almost all the cops and semi and demi cops.
I pay my dues and am grateful for my new benefits but the 'New %$#@&*' doesn't represent me or my brother workers. Peter
Let MTA get you there...Car Inspectors assure your safety.
One step forwards, two steps backwards. Progress is our only setback.
I think one of the only unions that did endorse Mark Green was the P.B.A. I'm not sure that Pataki would give in here before next year's election to the 25/55 refund bill S8582, knowing that if we decided to strike, he is handing us a perfectly legal strike fund. If he does support the 20/50, its going to cost us the refunds demanded under the old bill. I think that Green may realize if he is elected mayor, that he won by a 4 point margin, that he was outvoted bigtime by the endorsements of the DC37, UFT, TWU etc. Not that I see any endorsements coming at Bloomberg, although I may be wrong on that assumption.
I'm 47..I serve when called.....20/anything is fine with me until you try to pry my gun from my cold/dead hands. Up the hole, Peter.
I totally agree about the 25/55 refund bill. That money would go a long way towards paying for my new Shadow Tourer. Then again, I'd gladly give up that refund for the security of being able to walk around with my papers in my back pocket after next month.
BTW: Where did you go. There's no one to talk to in the afternoon on the way home?
I returned to the A line next pick, if we don't have to repick. I vowed to stay far away from the Manny B and am on the dolly again. I'll look you up at CCY next time I bring her up. I hated working the B/D the last time the bridge opened up, with the shortlining to 34, and the lack of scenery thereof.
Hi
Have any of you got any opinions or recollections on the station manager programme that Alan Kiepper introduced on becoming NYTA president in 1990/1991?
Did it make a difference? What became of it?
Reason for asking: I'm studying a case study of the programme,based on 231st street station.
I'm the other side of the pond here in London, your website is fantastic
I'd be very interested in your views, thanks very much
Last I looked at -- or perhaps I should say "paid attention to" -- the walls of the subway stations, they still had a notice posted in each/almost all/most stations identifying the manager in charge of the station.
It's really hard to say what effect the program has had. While one would expect that making a single individual responsible for the condition of any given station would improve conditions there, the results would have to depend on the resources placed at each manager's disposal compared to the resources previously devoted to maintaining/operating the station. On the latter point, I have zero info.
It would be better to have employees who care, rather than hiring more brass. If they close the booths and TWU members take being "station agents" seriously, maybe they can do away with "station managers" and save a little money. The "station manager" could just be the "station agent" who is most on the ball and coordinates the rest.
Hiring more brass is easier. Getting the rank and file to care is easier said than done.
I started riding subways when I moved to Philadelphia and I rode the Market-Frankford Line to work every day. I did this because I didn't have a car. Later, I bought an old car, but I still rode the subway when possible to be a good responsible citizen. Only after riding for a long time did I come to ride subways because I loved them. I'm not sure why, but they grew on me slowly and inexplicably. Maybe its genetic (my dad is a train fanatic). Whatever the reason, it happened slowly, but surely, and now I can't wait to visit a new city so I can ride its subway, and sometimes I even take trips just to ride the a subway.
So my question is, how did other people come to be subway fans? Was it a slow thing as happened to me, or was there one event that got you hooked? I'd love to hear others' stories.
Mark
What a good question! I've thought about it alot. I came to NYC
from Balto. to be an actress in the 70's. Living in Times Square,
I found the city to be pretty intimidating. Later when I made my
home in Brooklyn Heights, I came to appreciate how the subways were
quintessential NYC. On any given day I'd find every race, nationality
and economic group represented on the trains, riding side by side.
It was fascinating and reassuring about humanity. But I still didn't
consider myself a New Yorker. I went to L.A. for work for about 3
months, and when I returned, I found myself overjoyed to be on the
Gowanus expressway headed thru funky Brooklyn. I was home!
I had missed New Yorkers and all of their opinions on the world. Our
energy and drive. I was a New Yorker and looked at everything New
York with fresh eyes. I love our people and our subways, the way
they were the circulation system of the city, the mixer of the melting pot. They're OUR trains. Non-New Yorkers are intimidated
by them, but we know they are the fastest and most efficient way to
get around...and always interesting on a human level.
That's how I got hooked.
I'm a non-New Yorker and I'm not intimidated by your subways.
I'm jealous of them! :)
And it's not just because you have lots of trains to drool over, but because a good extensive system really is a mixing pot that brings a city together. Philadelphia's few lines don't really do that, and that. I live in a neat city with lots of interesting people, but who are isolated from each other, partly (in my opinion) because there isn't an adequate subway to tie us all together.
That's also one of the reasons I like to ride subways in other cities when I visit them. I like to get a look at how the real people there live, not just how other convention goers act at conventions. To me it's a real taste of a city.
Mark
Mark
7 Years old on the way to Rockefeller Center to see Mary Popins and the Motorman let me sit on his lap and operate the train from Flushing.
My nose has not left the railfan window since.
(Okay Okay now you can post all the pedophile T/O jokes)...
That's what I like about Toronto's subway. The railfan seat faces backward. It took me awhile to realize this was a plus and not a minus, and if I turned my head around my face was right up against the glass for an amazing view of my ride.
Great story. It's like the time I was five years old, and my dad was watching trains, and started talking to the train crew. Soon they were letting us into the caboose and I got to climb around in the cupola. It's sad to think that cabeese are history and no more little kids will get to experience this.
Mark
7 Years old on the way to Rockefeller Center to see Mary Popins and the Motorman let me sit on his lap and operate the train from Flushing.
My nose has not left the railfan window since.
That's what I like about Toronto's subway. The railfan seat faces backward. It took me awhile to realize this was a plus and not a minus, and if I turned my head
around my face was right up against the glass for an amazing view of my ride.
Both of these quotes cover two reasons why I got interested in the subway.
Since I grew up in Toronto I got to ride the subway with the benefit of the double seat in front of the railfan window at the front of the lead car. That seat's ideal for little kids too because you could kneel on it and face forward to the window and watch the ride as if you were in the driver's seat. I used to do that when I was a kid, I see kids doing that these days and I've seen older pictures of subway trains with kids doing that so I guess it's more or less a traditional activity for kids riding on the subway now.
Back when I was a kid railfanning on subway trains by the front window, after I had grown too large to kneel in front of it and had to sit and twist around to look out, some of the friendly drivers who'd always have their cab doors open (so far as I now the TTC still doesn't have a policy dictating that they must be kept closed - it's always up to the discretion of individual drivers) would occasionally notice the interest and let me drive the train. That's something that kids don't get to do nowadays because the TTC of the 1980s and early 1990s was quite lax, notoriously lax, and what used to be "Cute - the operator's letting a kid run the train" has become an extremely serious offence after the subway accident when the managment cracked down on all sorts of things. Anyways, I got to drive Gloucsters and H1s and H5s quite a few times.
Lastly, one of the biggest reasons I got interested in the subway was the rolling stock: When I was a kid in the 1980s there were modern (M1, H1, H2, H4, H5) subway cars and then there were the lovely Gloucster cars. Anybody here who has visited Toronto and ridden on the Gloucsters before the last ones were retired in 1990 would understand why they were so fascinating to me as a kid in the 1980s because they were so old fashioned - they were really holdovers from another era by the 1980s and certainly by 1990 when they were retired - and different compared to everything else. And that's what made them just so interesting.
It also helped that our family lived near the Yonge line on Chaplin Cres. at the time so the nearest park overlooked the Davisville yards which was great in terms of watching trains because you could see the main line operations and trains being coupled, uncoupled and shunted about the yard.
-Robert King
I found the Davisville yard by accident when I was in Toronto. The park has a pedestrian bridge over Yonge Street, and from that bridge I took more pictures than just about anywhere else on the line. I got to see a few nifty work cars, too. The pictures are posted on this site in the Toronto section. That yard is one of my favorite train-watching spots anywhere.
Mark
Actually that whole stretch of line along Yonge St has some great pedestrian bridges from which great shots can be had.
I must have shot video from EVERY overpass along Allen Road, too!
--Mark
so....you want a child molester joke....sorry, none here .
Peace,
ANDEE
Up until I was close to seven I had no interest in subways. They simply took me where we had to go and it usually was tiresome and boring waiting to get there. On April 19, 1947, my dad and I were shopping in downtown Brooklyn when he decided to visit his parents off of Avenue U. We took a train at Pacific Street and a few stops later we entered daylight, or did we, when he entered a tunnel. But it was a short tunnel, and then another, and then another. Goody goody this was fun, all these short tunnels. I asked my dad what train this was and he said the SEA BEACH. It was the first time I had ridden on this train, and the last time we rode any other unless we went to Ebbets Field to see the Dodgers on the Brighton. When we got off the train I look at it as it left the station. The last car passed and I noticed the #4 on it. Well, what about that, my favorite number. That did it. I became a subway fan and a Sea Beach fanstic which all of you have found out much to your chagrin.
I just stepped through the turnstiles at
West 225th Street one 1982 day and the rest
is history!
There was never a time when I wasn't a rail fan. I enjoyed the trips my parents took me on on trolleys and subways and it just grew...
I have memories of the Flabush Avenue trolley from when I was so young (it was gone was I was 5) that I vividly remember prominent details of the line (the prow at Grand Army Plaza, the loop at Avenue U), but couldn't describe what the cars looked like, inside or out.
I didn't become a subway fan....I was born a subway/transit fan. To wit....My paternal side goes all the way back to TARS, my gg aunt worked there. My fathers father was one of the designers of the Concourse IND in The Bronx. My mothers father was a conductor on the 3rd ave el. My birthday is 10/27 and on that day in 1904 we all know what happened.
So....it's like in my blood...IYKWIM
Peace,
ANDEE
The Broadway EL was right up the street from my house,
I have the subway gene, too. The first time I got on, I would not get off. I held onto the pole for dear life and my mother had to pull me kicking and screaming from the train.
--Mark
well, i probably have that subway gene anyways. But i'm not intimidated by the NYC subway system - i actually take it as a home to me. I love surfing around with no absolute purpose, and try to take the subway as much as possible - i don't have a driver's lisence
I fell in love with the BMT D-Types and Standards in their last days of service on the Astoria line.. If it weren't for those cars I don't think I would have ever become a subway buff.
Later I became interested in the history and politics of the system and came to admire the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation to the extent that I created a web site in its honor - BMT-Lines.com
And I just bookmarked it. So you are in my good graces. A good website by the way.
I've been visiting your web site for a long time.
It's great!
Keep up the good work!
-- Ed Sachs
Interest didn't develop until I moved to NYC full time from South Bend Indiana. The rest is Histor
I think I can relate. I moved to Philly from Mississippi, and even though it took awhile for subways to grow on me, to me they're still more of a theme park ride than utilitarian transport. There's nothin' like this back home!
Mark
I think I became a fan at a very young age, maybe it was because I rode from Kings Hwy on the Brighton Every saturday Morn to Times Square and transfered to the Bdwy 7th Ave Exp to Dyckman St to see my grandparents, always in the front car of a Triplex and then a LoVolt. Started riding them for fun in the 8th grade,
I am not just a NYC subway buff, but a full fledged train buff for real! A Lionel Train running past my playpen when I was young started my fascination with trains and railroads. Any train, all trains are good to me, and I go railfanning (trainwatching) WHENEVER and WHEREEVER I get the chance!! As a new conductor with NYC Transit, I now live my dream of working on something I loved since childhood, a train, and will love it 4 LIFE! :-)
Did you have a different handle before? I'm a South Bend native, too.
This is an oft-repeated story. It all began on July 21, 1965. We were in the city on vacation and were staying with relatives in Brooklyn. They lived on 3rd Ave. right on the BQE. We set off to take in the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty and walked to the 36th St. station. Soon enough, an N train of shiny new R-32s pulled in. The blue doors; green backlit "57th St." side signs; the ads including "Do all minors dig Milky Way?" - I soaked it all up, then we emerged onto the north side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. I was transfixed, so much so that I didn't even notice the local stations our train was skipping. That would come later, in 1967, after we had moved to New Jersey. That's when I got hooked. I began riding on the IND and became very familiar with the R-1/9s and R-10s. My allegiance to the A was forged for the ages on September 23, 1967.
But it all started with the Broadway Express, didn't it? Hmmmmmmmm!!!
You know what the Broadway Express is called in Brooklyn? Right, my train the Sea Beach. Well you started off with real class and that's why you are a winner and a friend of Sea Beach Fred. Take care.
Of course, the original side route signs on the R-32s proclaimed, "N-Broadway Express". No mention of the Sea Beach, although it was still used on maps and the "Know Trains at a Glance" signs prominently posted at all Southern Division stations at that time.
As I've said before, had it not been for all those IND rides on the A and Canarsie jaunts on the BMT standards (eww-wwww!), I may very well have become a BMT fanatic back then. If there's any consolation, I always looked forward to bail out those BMT standards at Union Square and change to "a BMT train with a letter marking up front" (the N) for a nice express dash up Broadway, even if we skipped only two stops. The R-32s made it look easy.
yeah was r36 something.
I remember now. IIRC we had long since left South Bend by the time you were born.
Yeap.
But The town lives on in our hearts.
it would also help if we revisit her one day.
I last visited South Bend in 1996. Took in the College Football Hall of Fame as well as the Notre Dame campus. Not to mention my old neighborhood.
I started as an elementary school student and grew increasingly fascinated with subways. I returned to Metro NYC in 1994 and since then have ridden the entire system plus all of PATH, Philly subway, PATCO. I even work for Transit now!
I've always been enamored by cities. Their mechanics and the things that make them unique.
It happened at 10 because that was when I started going to school near Center City, the first time I was leaving my West Philadelphia neighborhood on a regular basis. At the time, my mom wouldn't let me ride the El into town because she was actually still rattled by the El derailment at 30th Street that occurred 3 years earlier. After a while, I got tired of the slowness and crowds of the 21 bus so I started riding the El despite her worries. I enjoyed the experience of riding the train, looking out the M-3's incomparable railfan windows.(NOTE: to David Cole, I've found a superlative for SEPTA - Best Retired Railfan Window: Budd M-3 cars. Best Active railfan window: ADTranz M-4 cars? Can you sit down and watch on any other modern cars?)
At first I was fascinated with skyscrapers and tall buildings. I researched for myself the tall buildings in Philadelphia, then the towers of other American cities (It took me the longest time to take a shine to foreign skylines. I think we've always had the best looking skylines because we've been at it longer).
As I started to learn more about other cities, New York and Chicago in particular, I saw how massive everything was about these towns and how small everything in Philadelphia seemed to be in comparison.
So I researched about something else cities had that I liked but knew little about - subways. I was voracious about it and when I first started to gain access to the Internet in around 1997, a whole new tool was at my disposal to learn about subways, most of which I learned from this site and from reading the posts on this very board.
Now I always make it a point to ride the subway of any city that I visit. My first love will always be SEPTA. It may be small, it may have a lot of problems on the management side, but dammit it's home and it's where I first began my railfanning experience. New York holds a special place for me as it does for everybody here.
I used to be amazed by it's sheer size and scale but as I grew more accustomed to New York and learned that big things are just part of the local culture, I started to admire it for the great civic work that it is. To this day, I find the simple fact of being able to ride on a single train and travel from urban wastelands to economic nerve centers to beaches to great open parks to small hamlets and communities an incredible thing. But I think this speaks more to the greatness of New York - it's ability to function (more or less) as one great city, built on the size and scale of a small country, but a city nonetheless with all it's diversity in not just people but in place, than for the subway, which I think of as the magic thread that connects "the loose strands and frayed edges" of the city to it's heart.
Subways have a raw, unconventional beauty that few people take the time to see. We all here see it and I wish others could too and thats what makes subways special to me.
I agree with your poetic take on Subways and their relationship to
the city they traverse. We all know that development in Manhattan would have come to a screeching halt were it not for our subways.
It is our city's main circulatory system. I hate how in cities like
L.A. everyone is isolated in their cars. I once read that at the
low point for the system here, a marketing survey was taken about
riding the subways. Despite complaints on nearly everything, one
sentiment was clear: "Real New Yorkers ride the Subways."
Because I considered the Subways here to be every bit as important an
icon as the Statue of Liberty and Empire State Bldg, I decided to
memorialize the trains on shirts and hats. In 1996 I was nearly
laughed out of town. In 2000, I sold 50,000 shirts - mostly to
New Yorkers and the Japanese. Yes, our trains do rock.
Don't know. I've been one for so long that I think I was born that way :-)
-- Ed Sachs
5-years old, on the Montreal Metro. My parents still regret the day they took me for that first ride... they created a monster!! From then on anytime we went to downtown Montreal it had to be by Metro!!
And then they made their second mistake, taking me for a first ride on the Toronto subway, on one of the old Gloucester cars. I was hopelessly hooked from that point on.
I've loved subways ever since and I cannot visit a city without exploring their subway/rapid transit system.
The NYC subway has always been a major interest of mine since I was little, even though I only took my first ride on it three years ago! Ever since my Aunt, who lived in New York at the time, told me all about the vast and complex system of locals and expresses that went all over the city, I was hooked.
I was like a kid in a candy store when that first R46 F-train rolled into Queens Plaza station to take me for my first ride on the famous New York subway I had heard and read about all those years!!
I am from Philadelphia. I had only been on any form of transit a few times before 7th grade, yet I had always loved any form of transportation. Not because of the cars and vehicles, but because of the system of roads, intersections, and especially traffic lights and ramps. I had a long bus ride to school from kindergarten to 6th grade, and that was often the best part of the day. I memorized the roads and the timing of lights. Turn signals were also fun. Often the best part of the day was making some lights we usually don't make.
Then, in 7th grade, I had to take a SEPTA bus, the 44 from Center City to just past 54th and City Line. I loved being able to come and go as I pleased, and I also loved the network of buses. As for subways, I didn't even realize they were available to ride until later in the year. My first subway ride was on the Broad Street Subway (from Lombard-South to Allegheny, to visit someone at Temple Hospital), which probably was one of the best experiences of 7th grade. My first el ride, from 30th to 11th, was also a great experience, as were my many free rides on the day after the 40 day strike.
An otherwise crappy year, I had some of my best transit memories in 8th grade. I would often walk from my school to 54th and City Line, where I would catch the 65 bus, ride to 69th Street terminal, and take the el home from there. My parents didn't know I did this, and they wouldn't have wanted me to, because they thought I may get hurt riding the el by the bullies who are found the el. Frankly I think it saved me. The el rides (always on the dying M3s) as well as the 65 rides were all I looked forward to, and were very memorable, especially the sunsets I saw during November and December. And of course, I was hooked on the New York subways ever since I bought my first hagstrom subway map, which FYI showed the C going to Bedford Park Blvd and the B going to 168st. Not only the size of the New York subways is great, but also how all the lines interconnect is great. Only in New York, can new lines come into existance without the system being expanded.
I'm in 11th grade now, at a new school since 9th grade, and a Broad Street Subway rider. I sometimes miss riding outdoors, but its great just riding a subway, not to mention the express run. I don't have a driver's license now, and frankly I don't really want to drive, but I know I'll need to if I want to see certain places. I don't really need it for transportation; impressing girls is a much more useful purpose of driving. If my parents drive me places, it is usually because they don't want me using transit because its at night and they don't think its safe. And if they're driving me to some place without transit access, chances are they're the ones dragging me there in the first place, and I don't want to go there.
The subway is in my blood.My mom was a subway driver and my great grand father was in the Malbourne street wreck,my uncle was in the Union Square wreck(I said he died of his injuries a week befor the 10 year anniversary)And I just had an obsession with the subway.Long story to short It started when I was 5.
I always loved riding the subways, but after hopping turnstiles at Dyckman St and seeing friends destroy the system with grafitti, I decided to research it's humble begnnings and that led to my exploring the system with my books by Fischler and Cudahay? on Sundays.
I'm in the Navy now and been away from the subway for quite a while but still treat myself to a joyride when I'm in NY.
My father was one of the first five African American conductros to work in the NYC subway system, and that was back in 1939. Then came WW 2,and he went off to fight against the Nazi troops in France. He returned, maried my mother, and I was born in Brooklyn in 1952. He continued to work in the subways until he retired in 1972. I was captivated by the subways when I was little and stayed with it through high school, college and medical school. My father in law also worked as a conductor in the subways, but he did not know my father. My wife's uncle was a motorman instructor based at 57th St and &th Ave. station on the N & R lines before he retired, and I would have all kinds of fun asking questions about the subways, how signals worked, finding out about SMEE connections ( I forgot what that meant, but I bet not all subtalkers out there even heard of it )
and all other kinds of fine details. I took my children to the Transit Museum when they were little, and my son and I would go on fan trips which were operating, especially when certain types of subway car were about to be retired, like when the R-10 types were featured in a fan trip a number of years ago. I even went on one excursion on New Jersey Transit which featured Chesapeake and Ohio steam locomotive # 619, which ran up to Port Jervis, New York - that was a trip I will never forget. I have to admit it - trains are in my blood, and will be with me until I am buried.
Wow! Your family was really a part of New York history.
Thanks for sharing your story.
>>> my question is, how did other people come to be subway fans? <<<
I was a latch key kid living on 34th Street when I was 5 yrs old. My mother warned me about playing along the edge of the river, and I could not walk too far without getting into another neighborhood where I would be worried about being beaten by the kids who lived there.
Whenever I could get a couple of spare nickels, I would go to the 3rd Avenue El after kindergarten, and ride it down to South Ferry, enjoying the unique scenery all the way, especially the twisty portion below Chatham Square. I would watch the ferries for a while, and return to 34th Street on the El. After my mother took me to the Bronx Zoo on the El, I started riding it north for fun also. Since I could not read yet, I did not take buses which could deviate from their expected route, but liked the predictability of trains following their assigned tracks. This had to be the start of me becoming a subway fan.
Between 1946 and 1948 I would ride the 3rd Ave El to 42nd Street and transfer to the Flushing line each weekend to visit my father. He taught me which train to take by its marker lights before I learned to read.
My mother and I left NYC in 1948, but I returned one month each summer to visit with my father through the mid ‘50s. Since he had to work during the week and I had more time than money, I spent the week days exploring the subway system on a dime. The ride became as important as the destination.
I have not spent more than a few days at a time in NYC since 1957, and was last there in 1964, but growing up on the subways there has made me want to ride a subway in each new city I visit.
Tom
Whenever I could get a couple of spare nickels, I would go to the 3rd Avenue El after kindergarten, and ride it down to South Ferry, enjoying the unique scenery all the way, especially the twisty portion below Chatham Square. I would watch the ferries for a while, and return to 34th Street on the El. After my mother took me to the Bronx Zoo on the El, I started riding it north for fun also. Since I could not read yet, I did not take buses which could deviate from their expected route, but liked the predictability of trains following their assigned tracks. This had to be the start of me becoming a subway fan.
So you were riding the subways alone while still in Kindergarten? Yikes, that would never happen today. The parents who allowed it would be prosecuted for child abuse.
>>> So you were riding the subways alone while still in Kindergarten? Yikes, that would never happen today. The parents who allowed it would be prosecuted for child abuse. <<<
That is so true. Back then it was also common to see several occupied baby carriages parked outside an A&P market with no one watching them, and working mothers left children of all ages unattended as a matter of course. There was no subsidized day care, and the wages paid to women in offices at that time certainly were insufficient to pay a babysitter (my mother earned $37.00 for a 44 hour week). Although I was supposed to go to a neighborhood "settlement house" after school, I was really on my own.
Tom
Hell my parents never knew I rode the rails. I would take my glove and head to the park to play with my buddies, then would make a circuituous about face and head for Queens Plaza to take that disgusting 4th Avenue Local to Times Square. Then a pleasure filled afternnoon. Oh, we played baseball and stickball, but not all day as my parents thought. About four or five of us would go for the rails, and yes many times, one of us would get the attention of the lady or man in the counter office and the rest of us would sneak under the turnstiles. We paid ten cents, just one of us. It worked every time.
You never told me that. I used to ride the subway as a kid, for the 15 cents token. By the time I moved to LA in 58 I was thru everystation on the system plus the SIRT. I remember once I must have been 12, I rode the Dyre Ave Shuttle, it was a 3 car Hi Volt, when we got the Dyre Ave, the conductor came by with one of those portable fare collectors that they used on the bus(Johnson Box) I told him, I made a mistake and took the wrong train, so i got by without paying. Also back then Rockaway was a double zone
Maybe those were the last three Gibbs Hi-Vs in service.
I remember my mom took me for a ride on the A to Far Rockaway. This was back in the day when slant nose R40s ruled the line. After that, I started riding the trains by myself on Sundays. I have been on the 4 to Woodlawn, the 6 to PBP, the 1 to VCP, and the A to 207. I never got the chance to go with the 5 to Dyre, but I rode the D to 205 Street and the 2 to 241.
I became a subway fan partly because my dad worked as a conductor on the IRT during the early 60's when I was a kid, some of the ancient Low V's were running back then.I fell in love with the straw seats, the big fans and that great groaning noise.My dad became a towerman, and I would go with him, and see some of the towers.I wanted to become a motorman, in the worse kind of way, he talked me out of it and told me to go to college instead, I listened, and went.And now I sit in a boring office with boring people!!!! I love to be outside and driving a train and looking at people especially women!!I still ride the trains as much as I can, I live close to two lines the 2 and the 5 line.I light the IRT partly because my dad worked there.But I had to do it all over again I would of worked in transit.
I already told everybody how so I won't go into details. Suffice to say that I rode the Sea Beach for the first time in April, 1947 and it was love at first ride. I became a rail rat after that. I can never get enough of the subway when I come to New York. I think I could ride them all day with only a one hour stop in Coney Island for a ride on the Cyclone and a quick snack at Nathan's.
Got a job in Boston just out of high school. It required that I move from the sticks (CT farming country) to the big city. Didn't have a car, so started using the Green Line to work & college. A year later I was in NYC taking the Flushing & 8th Ave to work & college. Then came 15 years of driving to JFK, then 11 1/2 riding uptown to 116th & Broadway.
Now I drive 20 miles each way & ride the trains just for fun plus I found a local museum that will let me play with their toys. Saturday a group of us were doing track work until dark.
Mr t
Since my family lived in a "two fare zone" in Brooklyn, we would have to take a bus to a subway or park our car at a subway station. Because of this, we rode a different line depending on our destination. If my mom wanted to go to A&S downtown, we would take the IRT from Flatbush-Nostrand. If we were meeting my grandmother on the way somewhere, we would take the Culver Line from Avenue I. If we wanted to go to the Herald Square area, we took the Brighton Line from Kings Highway. As a kid growing up in the late 60's into the 70's, I was exposed to all of the equipment that ran on those lines. I then attended Edward R. Murrow High School from 1974-1977. The uptown Brighton Local track is right up against one of the walls of the school, just north of Avenue M station. I guess there is nothing more to say!
A Murrow alumni!!!! I went there from '91-'95. During this time, there was the Manny B reconstruction, work on the Brighton Local tracks, and swapping of fleets between the D and Q. I remember only one teacher complaining about the trains passing by the windows. Yes, I always picked the seat by the train tracks.
Most of my young life was spent near the Brighton line in Sheepshead Bay. As a youngster I always had my face pressed up against the front window of a subway train, watching the tracks and switches pass underneath me. I was always intrigued by the tunnels leading off into mysterious directions. I sadly saw the replacement of the pre-war cars by the newer models. I still remember the sounds, smells, and feels of those old cars.
My re-interest in the subway only came after I moved out of NY in 1978. I'd love to live in NY again, but my wife has different ideas. Now if I could find a NY train buff to cook and clean for me...
Yesterday I rode R-142's on the 2 line from Atlantic Avenue to Fulton St in the morning, and from Fulton St to Atlantic Avenue in the evening.
The morning train's electronic strip map in my car was malfunctioning, as the lights remained on from Hoyt Street onward. This was somehow connected to the electronic announcements, which did not work at all. The conductor made all announcements manually and did not sound happy about it at all. The electronic station announcement did make a cameo appearance at Clark Street/Bklyn Heights, which was id'd as Wall Street.
The evening train was no better. Although the car was different (I checked), a similar problem was occurring. This time, the electronic destination signs inside my car were flashing "(2) to 241-Wakefield" even though the train was heading Brooklyn-bound. Again, the station announcements were wrong, as Borough Hall was not announced at all and the strip map lights were not flashing/extinguishing as we passed the stations.
Junk.
Good grief, is it really that big of a deal?
I'm glad to see that all of the essential systems such as traction/breaking, doors, climate control, lighting, controls etc. were fully functional. I'm sorry if the non-essential toys like the strip maps or electronic announcements weren't working correctly. As an alternative to riding on an R142 with malfunctioning automatic strip maps and announcements, you could have waited for another train formed of cars that simply do not have them at all.
-Robert King
> you could have waited for another train
> formed of cars that simply do not have them at all.
And this would be.............. REDBIRDS!!!!
Damn straight.
Considering how much money the TA -- i.e., we New Yorkers -- spent on these beasts, I think it's reasonable for us to expect them to work properly when most of them have yet to reach their first birthdays.
now i was on r142 6341-6350 today and the annoncements werent working nitherthe conductors wasnt saying nothing. all you heard was ding dong.but these things happen.
r142man
Seventh Avenue Express
>Junk.
I agree with this post.
all you guys just have bad luck with the R-142's. thats all i have to say.
The last weeks days with R142s were good days for me. I'm new to MTA with an extensive outside background. I got to prove myself out on my own under supervision beyond the scope of regular MTA C/Is because I recognise troubles and thanked the car desk super. for giving me a chance. He looked at me and said that is why I am there....everyone gets a chance. Bad luck for T/Os, good luck and God Graced for me. On the juice and in the hole looking up......My 'butcher book' keeps accurate records of cars and trainsets I have worked on......send in your complaints on the 2 and 5 lines and I'll be working and laughing at 239..........the best work with the best people. Peter
Not me. I only have good luck with the R142 and since my home line is the 2, I ride and see them in service on a regular basis. I only have good days on the R142. Never had a bad one yet. Maybe it's cause I don't kvetch over minor glitches. Maybe it's cause I know the R142 is a vast improvement over the Redbirds that are long overdue for retirement and have made the 2, 5, 6 and 7 lines the "poor stepchildren" of the NYC subway for too many years now.
I drive 23 minutes from midtown...at 3PM, car glistens with steel dust. Peter
How, or from where, does your car get steel dust?
Like the presence of the departed souls of WTC, my 1995 Olds glistens with steel dust from the yard at 239 and Glasnost Steel on Furman Avenue. Stuff sticks to Armorall tire spray used to coat engine for show (how does steel dust get under hood?)
i agree. cause i do ride that line all the time myself. even when those glitches pop up, they now correct themselves. plus many r-142 hardly leave service. the ones who claim they are still crap don't ride the 2 line as much so, they will not no for sure how reliable the cars are.
Wait a second...I don't ride the train as much is true....but I'm the last stop for #2 and they're coming back with serious problwms and for MORE mods...and I'm at the bottom rung so I get to go out to play with this stuff and see if I can break it again. Peter
what kind of serious problems do they have?
Bombadier and Vapor and Alstom all fight it out to place blame and responsibility. I think there was a major problem with the doors that m a y b e some opened by themselves (why replace all crew switches?) Also, I've seen trainline communications malfunctions where the T/O had to bring the train in either because a computer unit (LCU) went bad and shut something down or flagged a serious problem that the T/O didn't know was nonexistant. Lots of fun LOL...
the big brass WAS in the barn Friday.....I read it here. Peter
oh. i think i know which company it is to blame. i motly predict it is Vapor. because Vapor isn't so good with quality. Asltom is so so. If Bombardier was by themself building everything, they wouldn't have a problem. T-1 is a good example (even though T-1 isn't all bombardier) Plus, there are rumors that at Plattsburgh, some of the workers are inexperienced.
Their workers doing mods know far far less than stoopid me
well, as i would tell others, this is rolling stock. not a brand new car that you use everyday. these are more complex. these things aren't reliable from the start and will become reliable after their worked in. these trains on the 2 and 6 are still being worked out and after 2 years, they will be ok. until then, people in this post need to stop complaining about them because its just the way its supposed to happen.
Amen...and it's all good work for me. The more I find means that the guys from Bombadier, Vapor and Alstom working under contract contimue to have work and support their families. Peter
well, after this, their will probably be no more orders from Bombardier if they give so much trouble. and so funny that they don't feel troublesome and they feel better than the R-142A's.
I like the ride too. 'Bomb' lost their shirts over this deal and are pushing their vendors to make em work.
Have you yet wound up getting stuck on a train of R-142s that broke down? R-142 #6646 wound up with a dead motor at the end of August.
#3 West End Jeff
A dead motor is common in any subway car and doesn't mean your ride is at an end. Guess you got spoiled by air conditioning too! Peter
I haven't yet been on a car with a dead motor that I know about. How can you tell whether or not the car that you're riding on has a dead motor anyway?
#3 West End Jeff
Never been stuck on a dead R142 yet. I do recall hearing about 6646's bad motors, but I thought I saw it back in service a short time later. I have had my share of dead motors on other subway cars, however. I remember riding an N train of R68s during my freshman year in high school. The train limped into 59th Street and went out of service due to "mechanical failure". But the R68s (remember when they had problems and Newsday called them lemons?) are now very reliable cars. Remember all the problems the R46s had when they were new? How often do they break down now? Considering that there are much fewer Redbirds in service on the 2 and 6 lines now, I think the R142s are doing pretty damn well for new subway cars.
Get used to it, especially several years down the road when the Redbirds will be just a memory. The TA has to "make service". As long as the cars can take power, brake to a stop, and have t/o and c/r indication (doors closed), they will be in passenger service. Those amenities take a back seat, no matter what the TA says!
God Bless you my precious friend!!!!! You are so very right. Twenty years from now I will look upon the R142s like I look upon the Doity Boids today..........and will regret how easy their control systems were to work on. The good news????? R142s will NEVER hold up in continuous revenue service. Peter
So I guess a brand new Lexus or BMW that has a faulty DVD navigation system is junk too, is that right? I take it that a brand new Airbus or Boeing jet plane with one seat that gets stuck is junk too, am I right about that?
Awwwwww, poor baby, the announcements didn't work on your R142 train! Well get over it! The TA has a lot more important things to worry about right now than a faulty lighted route map. You know, like that IRT tunnel in Lower Manhattan that collapsed when the World Trade Center was savagely destroyed by a bunch of Middle Eastern Klingons!
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the C/R didn't know how or had enough time to program the announcements? With all the close stops the 2 has to make, maybe the C/R was more concerened with keeping his train on schedule and not wasting time progamming some announcements. Is it really that big of a deal that the canned voices were not working on your subway trains, while other subway bars don't even have automated annoucements at all?
When you ride an R142 that has a real problem (like brake failure or stalling) and has to go out of service for it, then you can call that a bad day on the R142. Until then, give it a rest, would you please? Considering what has happened in the last month, a faulty line map and canned voices that aren't working is not a big deal.
Who gives a crap about AAS synchronisation???????Who cares if the station announced is three stops off key??? Are you smoking pot at the railfan window??? What counts is that I'm not the conductor punching the 'watch the closing doors' when the doors open. What counts is that the doors properly close and lock after Vapor replace the crew switches. What counts is that the T/O can stop the train where it is supposed to stop at the end of the platform. What counts is that the TOD doesn't flag some stupid warning of a non-existent condition so that your trip isn't ended abruptly to wait for transfer to another trainset.
I just got chastised and rightly so as the 'Sage of SubTalk.' I only tell the truth within the limits of my knowledge and experience. Period. The system stinks, I have found a golden opportunity at my age for continued employment and the guys I work with are helping me with the transition. I can help them if they want to advance.
Do I even know what 'junk' means? Don't compare a Bayariche with a KB182. Don't compare a FG42 with a M16. Don't compare a Colt 45 with a HK7. Dont compare a KWM-2A with a SGC 20-20. Speed is good but practicality of repair and return to revenue service is 'the bomb.' R142s (I will withold my comments to preserve employment) are at best 'tools of the Prophet Osama bin Loden.' A Colt in my left hand, a Garand in my right. I know what 'junk' is and I'm not referring to O/A WNEW. The Williams 'superwrench' hangs above my boot. LOL third rail, in the pit. God Bless, Peter
so your saying that they are junk and the system stinks? then the best solution is to not ride them. and to say they are prophets of osama bin laden is an insult to the canadians.
No, the system needs work and better to fix it than whine. Don't like the slow dance....I'm used to working. As for R142s, just ask any RCI, CI or CM. They are too delicate for a 100 year old track system. Shoes break off, LANs collapse, more modifications, etc. Sure the ride is good....BUT....ends quickly. Last message on TOD: "This is the last stop....please leave this train."
I am curious to know how many subtalkers have ridden Subways, Light Rail Trolleys, and commutter rail in the world. Beside NYC, I have ridden in Boston, Newark, Philly, DC, Miami, Chicago, Cleveland, LA, San Francisco, San Jose, San Diego, London, Paris.Amsterdam, Athens,Hong Kong, Sydney, Melbourne, Singapore, Rio, Caracas,Seattle,Thats all I can think of
Here's my subway list:
Atlanta
Baltimore
Boston
Chicago
London
Montreal
New York
Paris
Philadelphia
San Francisco
Toronto
Washington, DC
Baltimore
Boston
Dallas
New Orleans
Newark
Philadelphia
St. Louis
San Diego
Salt Lake City
Toronto
Under "light rail I included all kinds of streetcars, modern systems, and historic ones, too.
Mark
Sorry, the right column should have had a heading "This is my light rail list."
Mark
I forgotm Baltimore, it was the last system I rode 3 weeks ago
New York (everyday), San Francisco, Chicago, London, Paris, Munich, Rome, Tokyo, Beijing
Whew, you guys certainly get around.
I can only say NYC Subway (daily), PATH (I know it is under FRA but I consider it a subway), Newark City Subway (twice) and the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail (on Opening Day).
I was in Boston a couple of times ages ago but never got to ride their system.
You can consider Path in either Newark or NYC, different systems, same cities
Subways / Rapid Transit:
CTA - Chicago
MTA - New York City
MBTA - Boston
MARTA - Atltanta
SEPTA - Philadelphia
London Underground
Commuter Rail:
Metra - Chicago
Metro North - New York City
NJT - New York / New Jersey
MBTA - Boston
SEPTA - NJ / Philadelphia
Light Rail:
MBTA Green Line - Boston
MBTA Mattapan shuttle - Boston
Docklands Light Rail - London
Regional / Long-Distance Rail:
Amtrak - Chicago to Cincinnati and back
Amtrak - NYC to Boston and back
Great Northern Railway (IIRC) - London to Burnham-on-Crouch and back
People-Mover Systems:
Detroit People Mover
Skyway Express - Jacksonville, FL
Various airport transit systems including Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, and Cincinnati
Transit Museums:
Illinois Railway Museum
Seashore Trolley Museum
I think that about covers it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
No PATH in New York. I keep remembering systems. St Louis Lt Rail
Oops, I forgot to mention PATH. I rode on it once in October of 1969 while Intercity Bus was on strike.
I'm not very interesting in this regard. All I've ridden are the NYC subway, Newark City Subway, PATH, HBLR, the DC Metro, the Paris Metro, and the (at the time single-line) mini-subway in Rome.
Expanding to commuter rail, I've only ridden the LIRR, Metro-North, and NJ Transit. I may have ridden METRA, or whatever it was called then, as a small child, and I've been on rail lines around Rome and Brussels that probably could be considered commuter lines.
I didn't list commuter rail in my last garbled posting, so here's my list:
Boston
Burlington, VT (the Chapmlain Flyer!)
Chicago
Dallas (Trinity Express)
New Jersey Transit
Philadelphia
Mark
If we consider systems that don t exist any more. The old PE and LATL in LA when I WAS 5, But let us consider just present systems in existance, say after 1990
I have been on the following systems:
New York (subway, Conrail now Metro North, LIRR)
NJ Transit, Pennsy
Chicago (L and South Shore)
San Francisco (BART, LRV, PCC)
Denver light rail
Montreal Metro
London Underground
Paris Metro plus one suburban line, the S (ran lefthanded on steel rails, spur-cut bull and pinion gears)
Rome streetcars 12 and 14
Amsterdam streetcar 13
I have been on the following systems:
New York (subway, Conrail now Metro North, LIRR)
NJ Transit, Pennsy
Chicago (L and South Shore)
San Francisco (BART, Muni cable car (Powell-Hyde and Powell-Mason), LRV, PCC)
Denver light rail
Montreal Metro
London Underground
Paris Metro plus one suburban line, the S (ran lefthanded on steel rails, spur-cut bull and pinion gears)
Rome streetcars 12 and 14
Amsterdam streetcar 13
Sorry for the double posting. I almost forgot about about San Francisco's cable cars.
I have a very modest list:
New York
Philadelphia
Boston
Washington
Chicago
Buffalo
:-) Andrew
...and I supose PATH and SIRT are sort of seperate from the NYC Subway too.
:-) Andrew
I completely forgot Montreal.
:-) Andrew
Boston, Montreal, Baltimore, Washington, DC, New York, Philadelphia,
Barcelona, Rome
Heavy rail subways:
NY
Boston
DC
Montreal
London
Paris
Barcelona
Tokyo
Light rail:
Boston
Newark
HBLRT
Seattle
SF cable car
Calgary
London
Hiroshima
Commuter rail:
NY/NJ/CT
Philly
Boston
London
Paris
Tokyo
What subways that you have yet to ride are people dying to get on board? I want complete USA list by riding Los Angeles, Miami, and Cleveland. I also want to ride the four in Spain (Barcelona, Bilbao, Madrid, and Valencia) just because I like Spain. I also want to ride the Cairo subway (someday when the world is at peace) just because its the only subway in Africa. Of course, there is no subway anywhere that I really don't want to ride...
Mark
Washington Metro and Paris Metro (not to mention Acela and the TGV) are at the top of my list. I'm also looking forward to exploring more of the NYCTA system and the London Underground.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I should also mention that I have a lot of NY metro trains left to ride. Here's what I want to ride soonest:
Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
Staten Island Railroad
G train
I think it'd be fun to try to ride them all in one trip that at least partially circumnavigates Manhattan without entering it. But I'd also like to ride the SI ferry in the same trip, so I might not be able to
do it that way.
Mark
Well, I'll get to ride the Chicago L this sunday. I also want to ride Paris and Moscow. Like you, I also want to ride all the ones in the US. Think I got only LA, Miami, Cleveland and Philly left to do.
I would like to ride in Tokyo, Berlin, Beijing, Moscow, there are so many subways and so little time
Well for me it would be the systems in Singapore and Hong Kong. I wonder if the "trainladies" wear dragon clips. :-)
What do you mean Dragon Clips?
They are large, oversized clips that Chinese women wear in their hair. It's kinda my "nickname" for them anyway.
I don t remember seeing them in Hong Kong when i was there last year
In HK they may wear their hair short, but in the Mainland the girls wear their hair long and cinch it back with the dragon clips. So I guess maybe the Shanghai and Beijing systems offer more dragon clips.
I wear my hair and fingernails short because i don't want to get caught in 'the big bug.' Peter
Glasgow is being mentioned in a parallel thread, which reminds me that it is on my to-ride list. I definitely want to ride the Clockwork Orange. And if I ride Budapest, I'll have ridden all the pre-1900 subways, I think.
Mark
Chicago is the only great US subway I've never visited. I'd love to make it out there sometime soon. The only thing holding me back are personal finances.
More than anything else, I want to ride on London's original 1863 Underground segment. I still kick myself for not thinking about doing than during my 1978 visit.
I know how you feel. I was in Madrid in 1988 and I didn't ride its metro, and I've heard really good things about it. On the same trip I rode the London Underground and the Paris Metro, but missed the chance
to ride Mardid.
Anyone else miss any once-in-a-lifetime golden opportunities from railfanning?
Mark
I've been to a number of European cities with subway or tram service, but my timeline did not allow me to partake. These include: Madrid, Brussels, Frankfurt (Main), Frankfurt (Oder), Heidelberg, Innsbruck, Oslo, Stockholm. There are probably a few more I'm forgetting.
Milan too. We were there when Peter Witts were still pretty common on the streets, but we didn't have time to ride.
On a trip to Singapore in 1995, I would have loved to stop over at Hong Kong for a few days and ride their subway system. Didn't have enough time.
--Mark
Well, the one time I was in Philadelphia, the city transit portion of SEPTA was on strike, and the only thing running were the regional (commuter) trains and suburban buses.
Planning to use my Frequent Flyer Miles on Northwest before they expire to go with my brother to Berlin. he said he will pay most of my expenses. Maybe next month, if this job I interviewd does not pan out
I've been to Miami, but didn't ride the MetroRail (but did ride the PoepleMover), also, I've been to Philly, but didn't ride the subway. Hell, I even forgot to eat a Philly Cheesesteak!! I've been to Rio de Janerio, but I didn't know they even had a subway, I was 13 at the time anyway so my mom probably wouldn't have let me. Also, it took me 10 trips to finally ride the Sao Paulo Metro for the first time.
I didn't ride on any streetcars while in Zurich in 1977, and that city has tons of them.
My list isn't particularly impressive:
Chicago: CTA & Metra (but I live here, so no big deal)
Washington D.C.: Metrorail & MARC
New York: NYCTA subway, PATH, Newark subway, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
Boston: MBTA rapid transit & light rail
New Orleans: St. Charles streetcar line and the new Waterfront tourist line.
Seattle: The Waterfront tourist line (what is this, a franchise?), the Monorail, and the dual-mode buses through the downtown bus tunnel.
Kenosha, WI: Kenosha's (all-PCC) downtown streetcar.
Amtrak trips:
Chicago to Washington DC & back on the Capitol Limited,
Chicago to New Orleans,
BWI to Washington DC (even a Metroliner from BWI to WAS is still cheaper than a cab!)
BWI to WAS is even cheaper on Marc by about 50 pct over Amtrak
"BWI to WAS is even cheaper on Marc by about 50 pct over Amtrak."
Yes, but MARC doesn't run on the weekend, while Amtrak, including the Metroliners, does.
True, someone has do do something about that No weekend MARC trains, on anylines is a shame. People do go into DC and don t want to drive
"People do go into DC and don t want to drive."
I agree that MARC should have some weekend service. But I suspect that in the absence of weekend service, and with highway traffic and Metro parking not being nearly as bad on the weekend (but parking in Washington still being horrendous), many people heading into D.C. on a weekend drive to the end of the nearest Metro line, park, and ride Metro into D.C..
Thats what I do, I drove 66 to Vienna, and park there. Friday I plan to do that, then catch the Orange line to New Carrolloton rather then change trains and go to Union Station, Same fare, new changes, unless people know better then i do, What time is the best to get to Vienna for a Parking place in the PM, and can I park for 2 days?
I've been on:
TTC (Toronto)
STCUM (Montreal)
NFTA (Buffalo metrorail subway like thing)
London Underground (no explanation necessary)
MTA (New York, only very briefly)
MBTA (Boston)
BC Transit (Vancouver Skytrain)
-Robert King
Mine is a short list:
NY subways and Metro north
Philly--SEPTA R5/R7/Njt NE corridor to Penn Sta (The cheap way to get from 'Nova to NYC. RT 100 Norristown High Speed Line. Market-Frankford el.
Boston--MBTA RED LINE and Green Line and Harbor ferry (does that count?)
If the Ferry had wheels and runs on tracks then it counts
>>> If the Ferry had wheels and runs on tracks then it counts <<<
In that case, many of us have to add the submarine ride at Disneyland. :-)
Tom
Subway:
Atlanta
Boston
Chicago (This Sunday)
London
Montreal
New York
San Fransico
Sao Paulo
Toronto
Washington DC
Light Rail:
Boston
London (Docklands)
New Orleans
San Fransico
St Louis
Monorail:
Seattle
Disney World
People Movers:
Atlanta - Hartsfield
London - Gatwick
Miami - Metromover
Oh yeah, the SF Cable car and the Seattle Waterfront Trolley.
Arrrghhhh!! I forgot about the St. Charles line and Riverfront trolley in New Orleans, too. Been there, done both.
Subways:Light Rail/Other: New York Toronto (PCC, LRV)Boston (PCC, EL)San Fransisco (Cable)Newark (PCC) NYC-Newark (Path)Monorail:Washington D.C. PhiladelphiaNew York (1964 worlds fair)Toronto (Only one I remember where the rail was above the car)Vancouver (Sky Train)MontréalSeattleLondon UK (Underground)Newark (Airport)Barcelona SpainMontréal (after Expo 67?)Paris FranceDisneyLand CAAthens Greece (Mostly open cut/embankment reminded me of the Brighton line)DisneyWorld FLBusch Gardens FL Toronto (Metro Zoo) San Antonio (Was after a Worlds Fair in the late 60's, I remember there was a fatal accident on it shortly after that.)
Toronto (Metro Zoo)
Shhh! We're not going to talk about that 'thing'.
-Robert King
Gee, nobody but me rode the "Subway" in Fort Worth.
Phil Hom
Thats a dept store line.
Heavy Rail/Commuter Rail
Boston MBTA (North Station - Lowell
New York City: LIRR (Far Rockaway, Port Jefferson, Port Washington and Oyster Bay Branches)
Metro North Railroad (All Branches)
New Jersey Transit (All lines except Pascack Valley)
Philadelphia: SEPTA (Main Line from Philadelphia to Paoli and Trenton to Philadelphia)
Montreal: Windsor Station to Hudson, Quebec
Subway/Rapid Transit
New York City: MTA, PATH (All lines)
Boston: MBTA (Orange and Red Lines)
Philadelphia: SEPTA (Broad Street Line)
Washington DC: WMATA (All lines)
Montreal: SCTUM (All lines)
Toronto: TTC (Bloor and Yonge lines)
Cleveland: Entire system
Light Rail
New Jersey: NJ Transit (Newark City Subway and Hudson Bergen Light Rail)
Boston: MBTA (Green Line All branches)
Philadelphia: SEPTA (Route 36)
Pitsburgh: PAT (All lines)
Cleveland: All lines
Toronto: TTC (Various lines)
opps, forgot to add Cleveland
NY, MA, IL, LA, FL, MI.
get this! i have never been on anything other than NYCT, Metro North, Long island Railroad, PATH and Hudson bergen light rail! I need to ride me some other trains. I also rode Amtraks auto train
I didn't know there was a subway in Louisiana.
:)
Mark
Especially in New Orleans, where the City is below Sea Level,
My list is very short:
NYCTA, MNRR, LIRR, HBLR, NJT, SEPTA, WMATA, AMTRAK, & MBTA (whoops! I only saw the Red line over the Charles River).
I've been on a good number of the US systems, so I won't bore you with that list. The foreign systems I've been on include: Berlin, Brandenburg, Potsdam, Dresden, Leipzig, Strasbourg (France), Straussburg (Germany), London Underground, Blackpool, Paris, Gothenburg, St. Petersburg, Moscow, Toronto, Vancouver.
Evan ,since you have been to berlin, what lines are the most scenic, a friend is planning to go next month and is curious, and wants to shoot Berlin S U Bahn and Tram Videos
I was there in 1990 and I know they have expanded the already extensive system since. However, if I were to recommend one line to start with, you can't go wrong with S-3. It is one of the longest lines, and cuts through the heart of Berlin. Get off at Zoologischer Garten and watch the trains go by for a while. Also stop at Wannsee and enjoy the lake.
Thanks the Zoo Garden isn t that the main train station in Town
The Zoo was the main station in the former Western sector, but since unification, I don't know if it is still considered the 'main' station. Ostbahnhof is also served by DB and several S-bahn lines and is a large facility. Alexanderplatz is also a sizable station, but I don't think DB stops there.
>>> The Zoo was the main station in the former Western sector <<<
Prior to extensive USAAF urban renewal during the ‘40s, Berlin, like Paris, had many impressive train stations, which along with their tracks were destroyed. The rather modest Am Zoo station (think of 125th Street compared to Grand Central) became the Western Sector's main station since it served the trains that ran from West Germany to Berlin. Of course during the period of two Germanys, air travel was favored over train travel by many.
Construction is underway on Lehrter Bahnhof, a massive new station just to the north of the Reichstag, which will link the main north-south and east-west lines when completed in 2003. Until then, the busiest station in Berlin will continue to be Bahnhof Berlin Zoologischer Garten (or, simply, 'Bahnhof Zoo'), located in the western center of the city.
The other major mainline stations are Bahnhof Lichtenberg and Ostbahnhof in East Berlin. Some mainline services also stop at Bahnhof Spandau to the west, Bahnhof Wannsee in the southwest and Schönefeld in the southeast.
Tom
I was in Berlin Nov 89, when the system was still very separate East/West. The fare structures hadn't yet been integrated, with the West at 2.70 marks and hte East at 0.40 marks.
The U Bahn cars are small (I think 8-1/2 foot wide), and the S Bahn very much like the old BMT. In fact, when we crossed over the old border to catch an S Bahn to the Stadt Museum (to save 2.30dm), I had to close my eyes after walking into what looked like a wooden benched Standard, and by golly, the sounds were just like I remembered the Standards sounding like.
I ridden also the historische tram line near the Flea Markt on a section of unused el. This line has been reconnected to the main system, don't know what happened to the trams. The trams in the east we everywhere, and reminded me how Pittsburgh was in the mid 60's, kinda rundown but still going.
Subways only:
New York (duh)
Philadelphia
Boston
Washington
San Francisco
Los Angeles
Toronto
Montreal
Paris
Brussels
Amsterdam
London
Chicago
Glasgow (I can't believe that I'm the first one to post this city)
Newark
and a couple others that don't come to mind now.
Iwant to be the second to post Glasgow, here goes
New York
Philadelphia
Paris
Brussels
Amsterdam
London
Chicago
Glasgow
Newark
Lille
Munich
Newcastle
Coming up real soon - Barcelona
Simon
Swindon UK
Subway, Light Rail: NYC, Boston, DC, Toronto, Buffalo, Newark.
Commuter Rail: LIRR, Metro North, Philadelphia, (today's) NJT, (today's) Boston/North
Intercity: Amtrak (Buffalo-NYC, NYC-Philadelphia)
New York[yah team!]Jersey[Path]Philly[Septa] Washington[Metro]Boston[T]BALIMORE[MTA] Newark[NJT]MIAMI[METRO-DADE].
Ihave ridden:
NYC (of course)
Philly(entire system)
PATH
PATCO
MARTA
NJT(most of system. balance pending)
LIRR
SEPTA R7
Metro North(Entire system)
Great Question! Here's my list.
San Francisco - Muni, BART & Caltrain. F MARKET line rocks!
San Jose
Sacramento
Los Angeles - LRT & HRT Metrorail
San Diego
Seattle - Waterfront Trolley, Monorail & Bus Tunnel
New Orleans
Atlanta
Chicago - CTA, Metra(Electric) & South Shore
Washington, DC
Baltimore - Metro & CLRT
Philadelphia -city & suburban trolleys, route 100, Subway & El, PATCO, SEPTA Regional Rail & NJT
New York City - Subway, PATH & NJT
Boston - heavy & light rail
Mexico City Metro
London
Paris
So it's only me and no other subtalkers who have made it south of the border and ridden Mexico City's huge and overlooked Metro??? It's like the coolest, biggest & busiest one in this hemisphere.
No, but it's another one on my list of subways I must ride before I die. I should have listed it in that thread. I'd love to hear more about it.
Mark
I was there some time ago and it was my first "foreign" subway system.
The Metro runs underground, elevated and in highway medians. I really liked the bouncey ride with the rubber tires and all. But its the tires that makes it quite hot underground and the cars (then) weren't air-conditioned. One evening on a hot, crowded car I felt like I was going to pass out and had to get off before my stop before I did. Have I mentioned it was crowded? It's very(!!!) crowded. Once I got swept up in a surge of riders off-boarding (a BART term) forcing themselves against a wave of riders forcing themselves on - simultaneously! It was frightening, like a soccer riot, but I lived.
Outside of the (c)rush hour you see it's an efficient, clean, inexpensive, and attractive system.
The Metro is quite extensive and has expanded greatly since I was there. And it's still growing. Makes you wonder why a single Second Avenue subway is taking so long to be built in NYC, if ever.
>>> [Mexico City]'s like the coolest, biggest & busiest one in this hemisphere. <<<
That is amazing. They built the first line for the 1968 Olympic games staring in 1966, and have never stopped building. When did they pass New York in milage and daily riders?
Tom
the following site although outdated now, has a chart of ridership by passengers by mile. Mexico is #14
http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm
>>> the following site although outdated now, has a chart of ridership by passengers by mile. Mexico is #14 <<<
I saw that, but I also looked at Metro Planet's stats which indicate that the Mexico City subway is 207 km compared to NYC's 398 km. Therefore the NYC system is still larger than Mexico City, but when the passengers per mile (5 million for NYC, 12.9 million for Mexico City) are extended for the size of the system, Mexico City carries more passengers each day.
Tom
Forgot to mention the "subway" between the US Capitol and the Senate Office Buildings. Is it still open to constituents?
I'm told it's not. I last rode it in the '60s so I'm not sure when it actually was declared off-limits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was on-limits several years ago but I don't know if it counts as a subway. I would put it in the people-mover category.
I didn't ride the Capital Subway, but I did walk on the walkway that is right nxet to the tracks
Subways / Rapid Transit:
CTA - Chicago
MTA - New York City
MBTA - Boston
MARTA - Atlanta
SEPTA - Philadelphia
PATCO - Philadelphia
BART - San Francisco
London Underground
Paris Metro
Singapore MRT
Haifa, Israel
Amsterdam
Toronto
Montreal
Baltimore
Commuter Rail:
Metra - Chicago
Metro North - New York City
LIRR - NYC
NJT - New York / New Jersey
MBTA - Boston
SEPTA - NJ / Philadelphia
Amsterdam
England
Scotland
Paris
Bordeaux, France
Light Rail:
MBTA Green Line & Ashmont/Mattapan route - Boston
Docklands Light Rail - London
San Jose, California
Baltimore
Dallas
San Francisco MUNI
Regional / Long-Distance Rail:
Amtrak - Northeast Corridor
British Rail
Various lines in England
People-Mover Systems:
Dallas & Orlando Airports
Other:
Newark Airport Monorail
That's all I can remember!
--Mark
Did you ride Israeli trains between Tel Aviv and Haifa. I did last year on different equipment. It was a Sunday, and seated beside me were tow Sabra Girls in IDF Uniforms, we started talking. I told them nice Jewish Girls do not join the Army in the USA, we laughed.
Washington, Atlanta, Chicago, Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, PATH, PATCO, NJT, Montréal, and Haifa. I think that is it.
Forgot Baltimore Light Rail.
New York/North Jersey:
-About 65% of the NYC Subway
-LIRR
Philadlephia/South Jersey:
-Everything on rails
Boston:
-Segments of all four subway lines
Atlanta:
-South and West Lines, Proctor Creek branch the Northeast line
Washington, D.C.:
Segments of the Metrorail
Baltimore:
-Went to Charles Center station but didnt catch a train
New York (of course, born and raised there though I've been in California for eons).
Also...
Boston (subway and light rail)
Newark (PCC subway)
Philadelphia (subway and light rail)
Baltimore
Washington, DC
San Diego (light rail)
Los Angeles (subway and light rail)
San Jose
San Francisco (subway, light rail, streetcars, cable cars)
Portland
Seattle (if you wanna call that gizmo under the airport a subway)
Vancouver
If you conside the gizmo under Seattle Airport a subway, then Las Vegas Airport and its Monorail between Balleys and the MGM Grand, which will be extended in the next few years along the strip, also Seattle s Monorail
Oh yeah, forgot about those....guess if we DO consider them, then add to my list....
Seattle (monorail)
Walt Disney World (monorail)
Disneyland (monorail)
Las Vegas (monorail)
New York World's Fair (monorail)
(How many here even remember that thing??)
Not that I say this to "stretch" MY list, but yes, I definitely would consider the monorails in as rapid transit. They are a very viable form of transit....though they haven't really caught on in big ways.
well...NYC, DC, Baltimore, Toronto, Seattle, Shanghai, and Beijing
I have ridden SEPTA rail, NYC subways, Miami's Metrorail and people mover, and WMATA's metrorail, as well as the Chicago L and Disney's monorail.
hmmm...
nyc, london, boston, philly and wuppertal, germany (the city with the strange tramway-type subways).
New York (subway/elevated/commuter rail)
Barcelona (subway/streetcar/commuter rail)
Madrid (subway)
Chicago (subway/elevated/interurban/commuter rail)
Boston (subway/elevated/streetcar)
Philadelphia (subway/elevated/streetcar/light rail)
Atlanta (subway)
Cleveland (light and heavy rail)
Detroit (peoplemover)
Denver (light rail)
Newark ("subway"/light rail)
Washington, DC (subway/streetcar/commuter rail)
Toronto (subway/streetcar/commuter rail)
Montréal (subway/commuter rail)
Plus almost every operating streetcar museum east of the Mississippi River in the US and in the provinces of Ontario and Québec, and a couple west of the Mississippi as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And Baltimore - both light rail and subway. (With apologies to Dan Lawrence, it's an eminently forgettable system. The museum is another story, however.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And a few inclined railways, including Johnstown, PA and the long-gone Mt. Beacon Incline in Beacon, New York.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which Museum in Baltimore, and if you include inclines, one in Athens and Haifa, and Angels Flight in Downtown LA
Baltimore Streetcar Museum, of course :-) I've been to the B&O railway museum too, but not in recent years. And I have also forgotten Pittsburgh streetcars and airport peoplemovers in Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Denver, and Atlanta, plus the '64-'65 World's Fair monorail and the one at the Philadelphia Zoo (and probably others that I don't recall - does the gas-powered train/peoplemover at the North Carolina Zoo in Ashboro count?).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have to go there next time I am in Baltimore, dom they have operating cars?
They most certainly do... see their website for more information. Among others, they have Baltimore Transit 7477, the last PCC car built in North America.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks
Can't do much in the way of urban transit:
Subways/commuter
NYC, Washington, BART, Hamburg, London, Paris, Melbourne, Sydney
Tram/Light rail
Melbourne, Sydney, Amsterdam, Zurich
Interurban
Adelaide - the classic interurban route between Adelaide City and Glenelg
Commuter
Copenahgen, Hobart (now defunct)
But I have travelled from Hanoi up the Red River valley in a "hard: class sleeper and come back down in a "hard' day coach. That was an experience.....
Boston, Newark, Phillie, DC, SF, LA, Toronto, London, Paris, Rome,
Vienna, (then) East and West Berlin, Athens, Tokyo, Yokohama, Kyoto,
Osaka, Kobe...
I'm sure I'm missing a few more.
I just wrote the subway systems on the above post.
Whoa, If I'm to include light rail, trolleys and commuter rail:
Brighton, Amsterdam, Bruxelles, Koln, Lyon, Milan, Turin, Madrid,
Lausanne, Geneva, Mallorca, Tour-de-Carol, Sendai, Kawasaki, Nara,
Kagoshima, Enoshima, Okayama, and many more funiculars, aerial trams,
monorails, and mount climbing light rails. There are simply too many
to list. (or I am too lazy to dig into my memory)
NY (subway, 59th St. bridge trolley)
Boston (subway & LRV)
NJ (path)
Philly
Washington
Chicago
SF
Rome
Milan (tram)
London
Paris
Melbourne (tram)
Tokyo
Madrid
Plus watched San Jose LRVs go by for hours and days on end during meetings in an adjacent office building
Plus commuter rail in NY, NJ, CT, Philly, SF, Venice, Naples
From today's Daily News. Reutter says projects like the Stillwell rehab will go on, and the MTA estimated total damage costs plus labor at just over $2 billion.
TA says work to continue
From today's Daily News. Reutter says projects like the Stillwell rehab will go on, and the MTA estimated total damage costs plus labor at just over $2 billion.
Very odd. The Fulton Fish Market has been relocated to Hunt's Point, several miles from where I am right now, yet I still smell something really fishy. Could it be a co-worker's lunch in the refrigerator?
I abolutely do not understand this $2 billion figure. By even the most twisted bureaucratic logic, there's no way in creation that rebuilding one local station and maybe a thousand feet of tunnel, plus whatever sundry repairs to Cortlandt Street N/R might be needed, can cost seven times what the massive Stillwell rebuilding will cost. It's simply not within the realm of possibility.
Maybe they more in mind that wasn't mentioned in the article.
Maybe they more in mind that wasn't mentioned in the article.
Quite possible. For instance, the MTA might want to create a new IRT-IND-BMT connection in the WTC area as part of the reconstruction. While that's not a bad idea by any means, it really shouldn't be classified as part of the costs of repairing the attack damages. Only the costs for restoring the system to its pre-September 11 condition should be so classified.
I'm glad that in any cutback scenario, the TA brass is saying that restoring the system won't be cut. I guess the vote here is for peak hour fare increases, and perhaps tolls, if something becomes necessary.
Boston Globe: Precautions cutting into ad revenue
Go upstate.com: DeMint offers giant railroad infrastructure bill
WASHINGTON TIMES: Metro mulls troops, detectors in subway
I never understood why the windows 'must' be covered on shrink-wrap transit vehicles. The windows take up less than 50% of the side area of the vehicle - isn't that enough space to get your message across???
Of course, there were a few designs that were clever. One local bus here in Syracuse was wrapped to resemble a block of 'Cracker Barrel' cheese. And at least one MBTA Type 7 car was wrapped to advertise the Acela train, complete with 'Amtrak' prominently lettered on each end.
Jim D.
As of 12:50pm on Friday 10-12, the R143 was spotted on the Canarsie line. It did not stop by any station. Ill keep you guys posted as anything else develops.......
heheeh its so funny reading some of these msgs sometimes... make me giggle...
its almost like "hey look there is some bad guy running down the street, here come the cops and im gonna go investigate and report back"
here its "the r143 just left 8th ave, im on the next r46... can see the lights ahead... gonna try to gain speed to catch up..." or
"r36 on the q diamond today, it was #5444 and it was at kings hwy at 10:46, i will see what i can find out and report back"
i love this board, i miss nyc so much, you guys make me feel at home :)
I fully appreciate your amusement.....HOWEVER, the R143 is a TEST TRAIN (one of a kind) and that's why it was being reported on.
Peace,
ANDEE
That train has the first 8 of 212. It won't be one of a kind for long.
They were running the R143s on the Far Rockaway branch for several hours (approx. between 10pm - 2 am) from Monday until Wednesday. On several of the trips, the train actually stopped at the station (B. 60th St/Straton Avenue). Of course the doors did not open. The end signs were not operating, however the side destination signs were operating. They are a different color from the R142/R142As. They are a very bright orange-gold color like the new signs on the Green Bus Lines' Orions.
Keep your eyes open if riding the A line in the Rockaways on weekday mornings between 9am - 2pm, for the train gets test runs on the F5 test track north of Broad Channel, and recently is testing also on the Sea Beach line.
Wow, isn't it amazing how that same trainset was here on Sea Beach 2 months ago... It's like it was here, then now it's there... I miss it being here... *sniff* *sniff*
Orange LED's, as opposed to yellow LCD.
Some token booth clerk in Penn Station left a box of the 10/1 map out side..
It was open. I came along, now half the maps in the box is gone.
Sharing is Caring... lol.
Is this still the gray-tone map? Or did it come out in color yet?
Color.
Question is: Did ya grab a bunch of the 9/19 maps? Mark my words, THAT one will be a collectors item.
I did.
many booth still have the fullsize 9/19/01 map.
The Transit Museum store in GCT still has July 2001 maps up. I have only tried there and looked around some stations but no new maps. Also most of the subway cars do not have the new maps up.
When you go to a booth specifically ask for the "10/01/01 Map". many field managers have been given instructions not to issue the 10/1/01 map unless a customer specifically asks for that map.
Yay and d'oh at the same time. I got one, only one heh.
Go to the TM Store in the Times Sqaure area (47th & Bway - Next to McDonalds). They usually have a stack of them on the counter - and they are left unfolded so that the single sheet map can be rolled up instead.
Course I did...
I did that at howard beach couple nights back.
i'm going back to HB for another go around..
thsi time with a big plastic bag.
is this a letter-size piece of paper or a full fold up map?
More than legal sized ..
no the pocket map.
Letter size - No. It measure approx. 17" x 11" (what would be called ledger size).
The SubTalk field trip to Boston is in progress!
Visiting me in my office now are Nick B., Lexcie, and Jersey Mike. They just came back from riding the Mattapan-Ashmont line. They say the weather here in Boston is terrific. And that's Transit and Weather Together.
and what a great time we had!! We spent some time chatting abput many different transit issues with Todd, and then the three of us headed for a quick bite to eat, and then to the red line. Unfortunately I had to depart at Park Street, but I think the rest of the crew went to check out the North Station Superstation (which is being built), and then maybe were going to go to Resevoir to see the type 8s, which are not running due to more derailments over the summer. It was great to meet all of you. Hopefully sometime soon we can have an official "Boston T Party II" like in late summer of 2000 and ride some more. -Nick
If there is any type of advance notice I will be sure to be there. Right now I am a student living outside of the Boston area but go home on a semi-regular basis.
Yeah, count me in, too. I was actually in Boston LAST Friday -- the 5th -- and would have come the 12th instead had I known about it.
C
Too bad they didn't make it one more station north on the Orange. I was flagging trains through the Big Dig construction all day. Love that OT!
Hopefully see you guys on the next trip up.
LOL, that was one of the few parts of the system i didn't get to see. Go figure.
YOu didn't miss much other than big dig very boaring line. It is also my home line How was the Rest of your Trip?
See my forthcomming report.
......there was a TRIP today?!
Hey, your weather report turned out to be correct. As I flew down the Shore Line the defect detectors called out tempatures of 57, 62 and finally 71 as I headed towards New Haven.
This is the thrid message that I've posted regarding this subject, and I am trying only once more on the off chance I can snare somebody's attention who might be in the know, so to speak. If you've read the other two posts, please disregard this one. I regret any inconvenience.
I'm trying to locate records of subway train movements on Tuesday, September 11th. I have seen schedules for specific equipment and trains posted here before, such as when the R-142's were new, the first trains through the 63rd street connector, trains after the Manny B. flip, etc...
While these are predicted timetables, which would be a good start for my efforts in reconstructing a transit timeline for September 11th, I am wondering if the MTA keeps historical records on actual train movements? Are these public information?
If anyone has any input, please let me know,
MATT-2AV
they sometimes have people standing in the stations recording info about the trains that come through, such as: time of departure, car number of the first car, etc. I don't know if they do this on a regular basis, or only when data is need for a certain project such as the 2nd Ave subway. I know they were collecting data on the 4/5/6 line in Manhattan over the summer.
Hmmm... Okay. I am not very familiar with the operations aspect of the subway, and I presumed that some record would be kept somewhere of train movements, etc... I guess in this age of information, you kind of expect such extensive record keeping. However, I went into this believing it was quite possible that there are no such detailed records, the NYC subway system being as extensive as it is,
MATT-2AV
r142 6341-6350 are coupled together
r142man
[5]Lexington Avenue Express
[2]Seventh Avenue Express
So, R142 6342 had a high speed circuit breaker (hscb) B/O yesterday along with 6576 trainline on track 56 with propulsion failure # 2. Did 6578 undercar today and discovered worn torsion bushings that MTA bugged Bombardier to replace trainline. So what's the point. Peter
Sine there still seems to be a large interest in off topic discussions I have created a location for such discussions anyone who is interested it is Right here
NO PASSWORD NEEDED!
THANKS........
nice!!! be sure to re post the link from time to time to get others on ...... i posted there already !!! .......lol !!!
In the recent threads discussing federal disaster relief aid, I had been arguing that New York shouldn't necessarily get the lion's share of the money above and beyond what's needed for physical repairs and rebuilding, as the yet-to-be determined economic disruptions were likely to be nationwide. Some rather heated discussions ensued. Well, a news release today from check-approval company Telecheck is giving me some second thoughts. It now looks as if New York really has suffered worse economically than other parts of the country from the attacks of September 11.
Telecheck publishes a monthly retail sales index based on its check-approval activity. Checks make up a fairly significant - and consistent - percentage of retail sales, so their volume gives a pretty good basis for determining total retail activity levels. Retail sales, in turn, are a big part of the overall economy and therefore a useful proxy for gauging the economy's health.
Telecheck's index shows changes from the same month one year earlier for the nation, seven geographical regions, and about 60 states and larger cities. For the United States as a whole, retail sales in September 2001 grew a paltry 0.9% from September 2000, a result that Telecheck's economists - and just about everyone else who gives it a modicum of thought - attribute to the attacks. Yet this national figure conceals some very interesting regional differences. Growth actually declined 3.6% in the Northeast region, which includes New York state and city, and grew only 0.8% in the mid-Atlantic region. It was much stronger everywhere else, however, up 1.0% in the West, 2.2% in the Midwest, 2.7% in the Southwest and 2.9% in the Southeast. And remember that these comparisons are to September 2000, when the economy was still very strong.
Looking at smaller areas yields even more interesting results. With the exception of slight declines in San Francisco, San Diego, and California as a whole, all of the declining areas were those directly affected by the attacks: -4.7% in the District of Columbia, -3.8% in Maryland, and -0.3% in Virginia (areas near the Pentagon attack); and -2.5% in Boston (the origin of two hijacked flights).
How did New York fare? Well, let's say that the results were pretty gruesome. Sales dropped 7.1% in New York State and a staggering 14.1% in the city. Ouch. New Jersey managed a 0.5% increase, possibly benefitting from all the relocating companies. Oh, and for all the talk about the collapse of tourism, growth was strong in what are probably two of the three most tourist-dependent areas of the country, up 3.6% in Orlando and up 4.6% in Hawaii. Telecheck doesn't offer figures for Las Vegas.
In short, whether due to psychic trauma or physical disruptions, New York City saw its retail sales, and surely other economic activities, absolutely plummet in September. It'll be interesting to see how it recovers in October. But in the meantime, I'll admit my error.
Since the Sept.11th disaster stores in Manhattan seem to be much less crowded. Many are having clearance sales. However in New Jersey, Long Island, and in Queens, business seems to be up. Flushing is busier than ever, and area malls are still fairly busy. When I took the bus to a NJ mall two Saturdays ago it was more crowded than ever, a sign people feel more comfortable shopping outside the city.
And if the Wall St jobs move to their back up facilities in NJ, OUCH!
When will these cars be arriving?
Which M-1s will be retired?
I heard from a friend of mine in the LIRR that it might be on the rails as soon as 2004, but a time frame of 2004-6 is the expected time they will first be in service. As for the M-1s to be retired expect 9001 - 9100 probably be the first to go because they actually are the oldest in service (in regard to LIRR M-1 equipment; Metro North's plans are unknown as of yet). As an addition look for the M-7 to be transverse-cab units.
The 1st 100 or so M-1s are considered inferior because they were retrofitted and debugged after building, not before.
The surviving members of the original 620 Budd M-1's go first. The 152 (includes 9175-6) GE M-1's from 1972 are considered superior and could conceivably get a GOH to last 50 years. Prendergast said a feww years ago that the M-3's and 130 "better M-1's" will get a GOH to last 50 years. He could not understand why his incompetent predecessors past up the opportunity when the ones on Metro-North got it.
50 YEARS....DON'T BET YOUR LIFE ON THAT!!! Quite a few of these M-1's have fallen into disrepair, evidenced by the numerous, and I do mean NUMEROUS, M-1s that have rusted holes, some cracks in the steel bodies, which the boys at Hillside Facility thought that using industrial duct tape to cover them up was a good idea in tackling the repair. This tape is also used around the front cab roofline, so do you really think that M-1s in this kind of condition and disrepair will last for 50 years?? I don't think so!! Maybe if the repairs were worked on better (i.e. NOT USING DUCT TAPE FOR METAL CRACK REPAIRS, and come on, Hillside is a very well advanced shop, so it's safe to assume they can do a better job with the cars metalwork) they could then very well last close to that time!! Personally I think they'll be lucky if the C-3 bilevel cars and the DE/DM 30 locomotives last for 10 years, giving that for their young age they too have had steel cracks, whic is not good at all, and finally overcoming the door problem the C-3 had where the doors slowly opened while enroute!! Remember nothing is built to last no more!! (unfortunately)
I was only repeating what I read, not agreeing with it.
The M-series on Metro-North on doing just fine. Is it nature or nurture ?
Why have there been large planters "planted" at the LIRR entance/exit on 34th Street? Does this have to do with any anti terrorist activity?
If it's not, it's a terrible idea...they're in the way, especially at rush hour.
I'm one of Rudy's biggest fans. I wish he could hang around after Jan. 1.
But he has definitely not been a friend of pedestrians.
Pedestrian access on NYC's sidewalks has been increasingly curtailed over the last few years. Not all of it is Giuliani's doing, of course, but some of it is.
In midtown, where I work, sidewalks were built wide enough to handle large crowds. But...between the huge planters in front of some buildings, those now-ubiquitous awnings that are slapped up in front of buildings that are being worked on (but are never taken down) and omnipresent street hawkers with their stuff spread out all over the place, to say nothing of certain pedestrian lanes in midtown eliminated to allow drivers to turn right unimpeded.
Bloomie or Green wouldn't touch it in the campaign, but pedestrian rights are being pinched almost to the degree of intolerability.
www.forgotten-ny.com
An obstacle course to keep ragheads from peddling their 'Razors' from scooting a chassis full of C4 into a crowd. Peter
Since this is the same thing they've been doing in DC since Qadaffi got frisky in the Reagan era, I'm sure it's to prevent a terrorist from driving a truck right into the LIRR entrance.
Well Guiliani tried to get rid of the street hawkers but it appears they are back. They are especially disruptive in Chinatown and in Flushing, blocking the sidewalk not allowing good pedestrian flow.
Why planters? Ghandja Mon
My impression has actually been the reverse. In a number of locations, sidewalks have been effectively expanded by planters in the roadway.
Street hawkers are a definite problem, especially when they set up shop on a section of sidewalk that's already narrowed due to an existing obstruction. (It's not just the vendors. On a street near me, a makeshift wheelchair ramp added to a building extends into the sidewalk directly across from a tree. There's almost no sidewalk left. Why was the building permit or tree permit (whichever came later) granted?)
My synagogue has a problem (typical of many in the area) of hundreds of congregants congregating in front of the building after services. Lately, police barricades have been placed to herd the crowds off of the sidewalk, directly into the roadway. I must say, I gain perverse enjoyment from forcing articulated buses to swerve into opposing traffic -- with police sanction.
Planters are used to prevent crashing a truck into a building as well as to slow down someone from running in or out of a building.
They have been in front of the Federal Courts at 225 Cadman Street Brooklyn for many years. Just look closely at any news footage of trials in that court. Or look for any news/history stories on the several Federal trials of John Gotti and watch for him walking in or out of the building talking to John Miller.
>>> They have been in front of the Federal Courts at 225 Cadman Street Brooklyn for many years. <<<
They showed up outside of federal buildings all over the country shortly after the Oklahoma City bombing.
Tom
To grow pot
Be on the look out around Fresh Pond yard, because lately trains of new R-142 have been showing up in the east end of Fresh Pond yard. Conrail/CSX freight YAOP-33 (last road designation code for this freight train; as of now the possible new designation code or "call letter" of this train is unknown due to the new merger of Conrail into CSX) which shows up in the early morning hours at Fresh Pond, is more than likey the main train bringing them down giving the train comes from Selkirk Yard in Albany to Oak Point in the Bronx, with the train then coming down to Fresh Pond via the Hell Gate bridge. The train picks up the 142s at Yonkers via flat cars and delivers them to Fresh Pond, which then they are offloaded from the flats via a rail-ramp on the east end of the yard. The cars then are sent into the system via the Bay Ridge branch (for which NYCT freight subsidiary South Brooklyn Railroad has trackage rights) with the SBK diesels hauling them to Bay Ridge then onto Bush Terminal and to the NYCT connection to the railroad near the W line by 38th Street yard (NOTE** The connection at the Linden Yard to the Bay Ridge branch may also be a used connection for the bringing of the 142s into the system by way of the Linden Flyover connecting to the #3(temporarily now #1) Line near Junius Street). Any train buffs, preferably NYC employee buffs on the M line be on the lookout on the eastside of the Metropolitan Av. station along the CSX freight line...the morning freight might be hauling more 142s in. When I know more info I'll keep ya'll informed!!
Are you SURE this is the method of delivery?
Far as I know, they are moved by CPRail from Plattsburgh all the way to Fresh Pond (Train 274). CPRail has trackage rights, but NOT local interchange rights, all the way from Schenectady to Fresh Pond I believe.
Offloaded and marshalled as a 5-car unit at Fresh Pond, the R-142s continue with a New York & Atlantic crew and are forwarded via Bay Ridge Branch to NYCT Linden Yard.
NYCT diesels continue with R-142s to East 180 Street in The Bronx.
The cars enter home rails on the Livonia Ave. El.
R-142As are brought to Westchester Yard from Yonkers by flatbed truck.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I think you are both correct. Some R142s come in by barge into Brooklyn, some are transferred on FRA trackage. All must be hauled by SBk diesel to 180th Street for approval of propulsion and brakes. It's the MTA way and nobody knows nothing......R142s are strangely NOT approved for FRA trackage use and my yard (239), I believe, IS the home of SBk and I can't get an answer from anyone. Peter
As far as I knew Coney Island Yard is home to the SBK, if not 38th Street Yard is, because, for one, Coney Island is the south end of the original full SBK, secondly in regard to 38th Street, the NYCT connection to the "outside rail network" which SBK operates, is located adjacent to 38th Street Yard along the W line.
No, dumb as it seems, home to SBk is in the Bronx. I read it on the internet.......that's how I got my job. Give me the engine numbers and when I feel really stupid I'll put on my vest, carry my lunch and go out smucking in the yard. Peter
SBK Engines are maintained at Westchester Yard on the 6 Line here in the Bronx, while their primary base of operation is 38th St Yard on the W in Brooklyn.
With Regards to the SBK Locomotives pulling R-142s, they are not always utilized for these movements. Early on, the units were being used. These days, standard TA Diesels do the transfers from Linden Yard to the East.
-Stef
So tell me....mgmt is soooo (blank) stoooopid. There is no map listing any Westchester Yard I have seen and I can spit into Mount Vermin. BBBBBUT you are the first knowledgable person to burp out #6....my yard is #2 and we're getting #5s. My job is to produce #1 and I can't stop laughing........The Lord has Gifted me again. Peter
Are you ok? Like I said, a diesel facility on the 6 maintains all TA Locomotives. I think it's a well known fact.
-Stef
I'm OK and I don't ask too many questions.......i learn quickly
Peter, with all due respect, it would seem that despite the fact that you are a NYCT employee, you have much to learn. Don't discount what others may say here yet because you may have to put some salt on your words some day. I assume that you've been in the system less than 6 months and have not yet gone through a pick or done much real car inspector work as yet. Perhaps you should spend some time learning who knows what before you act like the sage of subtalk. You'll be suprised how much collective knowledge is hanging around here.
I am stupid. Period. I learn fast. I am no sage. I am a communications professional experienced with hard twelve hour days, no holidays off and working Saturdays. I sit in my car in tears each and every day giving Grace because i have new EASY work. I am having trouble adjusting to T H E T A S H U F F L E. Do you know what it is coming home at 10 PM and having your office call at 9AM next morning asking about extra call unfinished???? I have already gone through my first pick and know how Blessed I am to be able to attend Church on Sunday and know I will lose all.....to work troubles 3 to 11 with Tues and Weds off......summer vacation next February.
It amazes me to work the TA eight hour day....clock a half hour from the car desk, search for your assignment, early break at 9:15 to end at 9:45.......lunch at 11:30 to start at 12:00 and end at 12:45 then a hidden break to finish at 1:30 for wash up and wait till 2:50 for your time card. I've done carbody, undercar and utility. Their so needing that the R142 course I should have had....has been skipped and they just threw me into it. The system has guys that will never advance or leave their assignments.....broadband will NEVER pull them out for their own benefit. My carbody friend Mr. Ince is the only one going SM1....and I gave him test leads for his DVM because the supply counter HAS NONE. So my friend forgive me, and i do call you my friend because i had been warned NOT to show my skills or say anything to anyone and you are so very right to say something to me and correct me. There is a phenomenal amount of collective knowledge out there that i have tapped into since March...and I do not hesitate to tell others and share. Chastise me as you do correctly...TA NEVER asked me WHAT I KNOW about subway control systems and Signals hasn't called me yet. What I do know and hesitate to post is C/I carbody/propulsion/undercar/airbrakes/troubles is easy work for any basic schlub $22+/hour work 40 hours. R142 systems LAN E A S Y but TA laptops slow old programs. You guys reading this in confusion: LEARN BASIC ELECTRICITY AND MECHANICS......TA JOBS WANT STOOOOPID PEOPLE TO LEARN THE TA WAY.....TA WILL GIFT YOU A JOB FOR LIFE TO SUPPORT YOUR FAMILY IF ONLY YOU SHOW UP FOR WORK ON TIME WITHOUT ABSENCE/././.ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SPEAK AND UNDERSTAND ENGLISH. Allright Train Dude,I've emptied the last round in my cylinder. Did I fire five or six rounds??? So, forgive me of my enthusiasm, understand my ignorance but please respect my over twenty five years of professional experience.Stuff is coming in from Bomb, Vapor and Alstom. I want to learn...I will teach SM1...PS 248 instructors are not dedicated. QSL ck 73 de WB2SGT Peter.
Peter, not a problem here. Frankly, there are things you say that I agree about but don't base all your experiences on 2 less functional work locations. There are shops where people work (willingly) when they are supposed to work. They sit together and relax, on and off the job, regardless of title. They make things work and get things done. all without the threat of discipline or the TWU saber rattling. Before you judge the TA by your experiences, see a little more of the system. You may be suprised.
You're right again and I have to work with what I have just like the guys I came with. We're older and used to working hard. Besides, we didn't have anywhere else to go...and we were wanted. One instructor qued us one by one to our assignments....he had been to most of the yards and shops. Liked C.I. and got used to the trip....180th was my first choice but not available.Concourse no parking. 207 no parking (reef work.) The choices also included who was MY union rep. So my friend, maybe we don't agree on things and I know very well that there is so very much for me to learn, what I do best is to learn fast and able to share with others. AND I have written and thanked each and every web host where I got train stuff because if it weren't for them, I wouldn't have had the confidence to make the jump (not from the 142 on the trestle.) God Bless, Peter
"Concourse no parking."
Parking's been re-opened since April
So much for advice from the experienced. Shoot, my girlfriend lives in Bedford Park. Thanx, we'll see next pick. Peter
So how come you weren't my instructor at PS 248????
They say those that can't do, teach. I can do and I enjoy doing it - very much.
In an environment like a mass transit system, you sort of need to know how to do before you teach. You could apply the same sort of priciple to baseball, Joe Torre played baseball and he's coaching, etc. Authors could become great writing teachers. Don't always go with the standard sayings, because the standards are constantly changing.
Perhaps you are correct but unfotunately, that doesn't always prove to be true. Things taught in school often don't relate to life in the real world - be it in public education or in industry. As a former educator, I've seen both sides. I can say that the fact that you "DO" does not mean that you can't teach at the same time. I try to do both.
I'm no little kid but I wish you were my 'Elmer,' my 'Rebbe,' my mentor. TA's policy (and a new industry process) is to take someone that is qualified to do things but stooopid, pair them up occasionally with someone experienced in the system but lacking in the latest tech and gain experience with hands on work and observation. I had all day to think about what you have told me and.....I'm a fast learner. My instructors weren't whizzes and I'm just now finding out their errors. There is the real world and there is the TA. My reports are from my observations....Engine Brake asked about the major defects in R142s....TA sups don't tell us....I see things in person....and now I know why so many were swarming about my work area. What TA needs (and my car desk sup wants) is our outside experience. I need to slow down to their pace. God Bless from the hole, Peter.
Propulsion: Need to know all systems
Carbody: Controls/indications/HVAC/signals
Undercar: Brakes, hoses, compressor, EB
Utility: Everything before troubles to do for everyone
My plans: To teach and help, especially LAN and control systems
With all details finalized about the CP Rail's access to New York City, they have interchange rights to Fresh Pond now, this took effect last year. About Train 274 thanx for the info about that, because, for one thing, I didn't know the CP Rail freight call letter, and second YAOP-33 was the only train I knew of that delivered the cars to Fresh Pond (this I know because while giving observation to the yard one morning prior to the arrival of YAOP-33 ,which again comes early AM, between 6am and 10am, the east end was empty, and when arriving back to Fresh Pond later on in the day, about 11am or around noontime, several flats with 142s WERE VISIBLE on the east end of the yard, along with the usual mix of lumber loads for Richmond Hill, welded rail loads for the LIRR Main Line work, and propane tankers for Pulver Gas in West Hampton. When does train 274 arrive at Fresh Pond, and when does it depart Fresh Pond? (I believe it departs "POND" at night, but don't know for sure!!)
Are you an enemy spy???? Who cares when these pieces of junk arrive...they are all defective and paid for under warranty. Peter
Well, some of us are interested, even if you lack our enthusiasm.
-Stef
274 is a night train out of Saratoga NY around 6 PM, but not every day. I think they get from Plattsburgh to Saratoga with Montreal-Saratoga Train 550, or whatever its symbol is now (they change a lot). It follows the same route as the "Adirondack."
I have never haerd of R-142s passing through Bush Terminal for any reason. It's out of the way and just complicates the process.
(There's enough complications with La Vida Loca as it is:-)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I think that you mean the R-143s. The R-142s are for the IRT division.
#3 West End Jeff
R-143's wont come thru bush term either.
NOOOOOOO I mean the R-142s, coming down from Kawasaki in Yonkers and Bombardier in Plattsburgh (not unless B division car specs have the sizes scaled down to 51' recently). The 143 is not in the revenue (passenger service) test phase. It has to pass the revenue test before deliveries are accepted. Since the 142s are performing better, NYCT has started accepting more 142s, which are what are seen being offloaded in Fresh Pond.
I guess that they'll move those R-142s to the IRT division when they're ready to.
#3 West End Jeff
See, I knew they'd start to perform better! You just have to give them a chance.
Can somebody please tell me why on Earth the 6th Avenue shuttle wasn't extended to Grand Street??? I mean, having worked the 6th Avenue Shuttle before, how crews drop back at Broadway-Lafayette can be done at Grand Street, giving like Grand Street, Broadway-Lafayette doesn't have a crew area where dropback crews can wait for their trains. The crews would wait for their next train at Grand Street just as they would at Broadway-Lafayette on the platform and pick it up when it comes in and prepare it for the next outbound departure. This seems so much more logical then having the two different shuttles (Grand St. and 6th Ave. shuttles), and customers from Grand Street can get to locations on the 6th Avenue line (like West 4th) much easier then going thru the hassles of waiting for connecting F's at Broadway-Lafayette, because to be honest, the F train connections are not reliable because the F crews are so "gung-ho" on hightailing it out of Broadway-Lafayette, the connections are not made. Someday someone in the higher-ups at NYC Transit will actually start thinking...might make the system run a little smoother, with less complaints about services.
If you worked the shuttle, shouldn't you have reported to supervision (or higher) about the problem? What can you lose, your job? I'm bottom rung C/I, wasted half a day on a R142 defect yesterday, found a MAJOR defect today I won't get credit for that brought out a WHOLE CREW OF PICTURE TAKERS AND MECHANICS, caught an MTA manager and pointed out physically yesterdays MAJOR defect.......and won't get fired. Learn to tangle your feet doing the MTA Shuffle. Peter
Believe me, you know as well as I do PEOPLE IN NYC TRANSIT (the "higher-ups") won't listen to a thing!! I could run this railroad with my eyes closed and and asleep better than a lot of the "higher-ups" wish they could (and anyone who has seen the supplement schedules on the lines after Sept. 11th, knows these people don't know a thing about making the railroad run!!)
I really beg to differ, I'm very close to operations planning and believe me they don't have much to work with as you all may think.
Ya'll ungreatful people are even lucky you got this much service back! Count your blessings, TWICE!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
As I understand from previuos posts, there is no switch at Grand St. allowing turnarounds from both tracks. Thus only one track can be used into and out of that station. So the number of trains running down 6th could not all be turned around at Grand.
Remember the 6th Avenue Shuttle only uses one track at Broadway-Lafayette, and that one track continues onto Grand Street (southbound platform), so here's what can be done:
both tracks at Grand Street can be used, with the crossover used by the shuttle currently north of W 4th set to the proper track available
at Grand Street. If both pockets are occupied at Grand Street, the southbound shuttle arriving would be held at 14th, once a track clears and a train is in the clear by the time it reaches West 4th, the train waiting at 14th can proceed to W 4th and onto B'way Lafayette and Grand Street via the available track and arrive at Grand Street on whichever platform and track that's available. (Than again since NYCT is so big on crazy general orders, and , trust me, ones that make NO KIND OF SENSE, make a G.O. where they can install a crossover south of Broadway Lafayette, so this can be done successfully, and it doesn't take a real long period of time to complete this, maybe 2 1/2 months, subject to sooner time giving how NYCT has completed key projects of extensive natures in short periods of time with good results) Like I previously said, the "higher-ups" at NYCT don't really think!! :-)
>>>>>>>the southbound shuttle arriving would be held at 14th,
No can do. That would mean blocking the F line. In the event that a train had a guard light, BIE, etc., then F service might be severely delayed.
Doesn't matter. As of Dec. 9th, there won't be a 6th Av Shuttle to worry about.
Is 12/9 the new launch date for the much maligned V line?
We've discussed this issue to death in the past. It will be changed in less than 2 months (12/9/01) with the F via 63rd, the V to Second Ave and the Grand St. shuttle extended to W.4th.
I've suggested going one step further: have the crews drop back at Broadway-Lafayette, with the new crew riding to Grand before going into service and the old crew riding back to B-L after going out of service. That would allow the train to leave Grand as soon as is physically possible, minimizing single-track time.
When the V begins running, it, too, could run to Grand, in similar fashion. If headways are too low, run alternate trains to 2nd Avenue.
But this has been discussed here dozens of times. Apparently the TA is just not interested. I'm not sure why; it would probably be cheaper to implement than a separate shuttle and it would certainly be more useful to the passengers.
I've been reading some posts about November 11th and the 63rd Street Tunnel.
First, holding it off for at least one month is a good thing (the switch starts in December I think).
Second, and most importantly,
Roosevelt Avenue will get a special honor - the greatest honor ever to be bestowed....
Roosevelt Avenue will become the MOST CROWDED subway station in New York City. Never mind Grand Central, Times Square, Lexington Avenue, or even Fulton on the 4 and 5.
For starters, obviously we know it connects to the # 7 train.
Also, it will be the last chance for manhattan-bound passengers to get the F, since the F will go express to the 63rd Street Tunnel. And, vice versa (in the sense that it will be the first chance for eastbound F riders to pick up a local.)
The E will be the only express train to Queens Plaza - and that will be the reason for the crowds - to get the E train.
Finally, there will probably be some trains backed up on BOTH express and local lines as the E and V trains merge to one track, leading to the 53rd Street Tunnel, after Queens Plaza.
Speaking about the V train, I believe the V has its plus and minus sides. On the plus side it offers a no-connection trip from local stations to the 53rd Street tunnels. But more importantly on the MINUS side, since the E and the V both go to 53rd Street, ridership will be high on the E and relatively low on the V, with regards to 71/Continental and Roosevelt express stations. Those who take the V at these two stops will obviously be valuing their time.
When the switch occurs in December, Queens Blvd line riders on the E, F, G, Q (or R) and V have to get prepared.
Or else the chances are that when the MTA finishes up on the north side of the Manhattan Bridge, riders will have figured this all out.
I highly doubt your prediction. Roosevelt will become somewhat more crowded than it is now. It won't pale in comparison to many other transfer points.
And, BTW, the MTA isn't working on the Manhattan Bridge. It's NYCDOT that maintains(?) the bridge. The TA is only a tenant.
Someday the people at NYCDOT, The Port Authority of NY and NJ, and the MTA will finally get the "Train To The Plane" right, and here are some ways this could be done:
1). Opening the old LIRR Rockaway Line from Whitepot Junction (Rego Park, 1 mile west of Forest Hills) to just north of Liberty Junction, where a LIRR can have a separate right of way built adjacent to the A Line r.o.w., run it parallel to the A then around Howard Beach curve it off towards JFK, along the location where the "AIRTRAIN" from Howard Beach Station exists, and run it to the terminals much like SEPTA in Philadelphia does, with stops at all the terminals, make the trains run from Penn Station to JFK every 30 minutes (like SEPTA's R-1 Airport line in Philly), and as a provision possibly build a connection to the JFK Line by construction of a connection from the Flatbush line, allowing LIRR trains to serve JFK from Jamaica, every 30 minutes as well. Open stations stops at Rego Park (just west of Whitepot Junction, about 1/2 mile), Woodhaven (current by Atlantic Av, abandoned), Ozone Park (by 101st Street, abandoned) and a station at Howard Beah, like JFK, with A Line transfer)
2. (THIS COULD HAVE REALLY MADE SENSE) E line from (current) Jamaica-Van Wyck to JFK along the Van Wyck Expressway service road to JFK, stops at Atlantic Avenue, Liberty Avenue, Linden Blvd, Rockaway Blvd., N. Conduit-Belt Parkway, General Aviation Term., Terminals 1-3, then 4-6, then 7-9. Make this a new JFK Express, limited stops from 42nd Street (Re-activate the lower level at 42nd) and run express to JFK (50TH, 7 Av, 5 Av, Lex, 23-Ely, Q.P., Roosevelt, 71-Cont., Union Tpke, Jamaica-Van Wyck, and all above "new" stops), run every 30 minutes
3. Spur from Howard Beach-JFK to JFK Airport (this idea would have made the original "Train to the Plane" right), run same as original JFK Express was run (I bet this would have had much better ridership, because it would have the one seat ride to Manhattan, and not to mention a one seat ride that takes less than an hour!!)
4. GET RID OF THE CURRENT AIR TRAIN BECAUSE IT IS A $600 MILLION WASTE THAT I BELIEVE IS A FAILURE WAITING TO HAPPEN, AND WILL HAVE NO KIND OF REAL RIDERSHIP DUE TO THE LACK OF A ONE SEAT RIDE TO MANHATTAN!!
Anyone with ideas on how we can get a one seat ride via rail from Manhattan to JFK can be done, please feel free to respond. Maybe someone higher up at MTA, Port Authority, NYCDOT or all three might read this all and FINALLY start using the brains God gave them!!
1.The Air-Train has became a waste as of 9-11-01.No one want's to visit a terrorist target(though people visit D.C).
2.A good Idea would be to raise the 2 tracks nto an eevated structure and turn that structure towards the airport.
3.The JFK express was a good Idea for about 11 years ok.
Good ideas normally last....the JFK Express didn't, and why didn't it???.....because there was NO ONE SEAT RIDE TO MANHATTAN FROM JFK....because in oder to get to the JFK Express you had to take a shuttle buss, which can and does get caught up in traffic leaving and entering JFK!! As for a terrorist target I agree! (though it is a surprise the locals in South Jamaica and South Ozone Park haven't sabotaged the thing already given it inconvenienced the area so much and now is nothing more than an eyesore to the neighborhood!!) And I would love to see how they plan to evacuate a train if something happens on the train...I mean if you check the AirTrain right of way there is, at NO point, an emergency exit to the street levels of any kind!! Much fun is on the way with the AirTrain....a $600 million waste of time, money, and a big inconvenience to the local residents who will not, in any way, benefit from it.
I there an egmergency exit on any IRT,IND or BMT trains for any type of incident(god forbidd)?
There are Emergency Exits In The Subway Tunnels On IRT, BMT, IND & Path; But there are No Emergency Exits On The Elevated (Broadway/Jamaica), Open Cut(Sea Beach) Or Surface Line (L Line).
Do remember....the elevated lines have catwalks, the Sea Beach and Brighton lines people can walk opposite the ROW to a station...Air Train ROW has absolutely no catwalks on the right of way, and no space to walk opposite the ROW!!
hey, how bout extending the 3 from New Lots to JFK, then run some express from 42/Times Square or 34 Penn Station.
That's actually a damn good idea!! But you know how the MTA thinks...and we all know it is not logically!!
980 Mil to de Bomb for 32 NPTO cars. Have patience
$980 million wasted bucks!! The train is a failure waiting to happen, especially if they decide to automate it...that technology may work in Miami, or in Detriot, but may definitely not work here!! It's too much too soon!! I say back to the drawing boards!!
"that technology may work in Miami, or in Detriot, but may definitely not work here!! It's too much too soon!! I say back to the drawing boards!!"
Why stop at the drawing boards? Back to Stonehenge!
Oh, wait, I totally forgot. NPTO doesn't work here because of a peculiarity in the Earth's magnetic field.
ROTFLOL,
MATT-2AV
you will get your train to the plane when you pay me... one BILLON dollars.
Make the check payable to "evil Enterprises, Inc."
thanks.
”Maybe someone higher up at MTA, Port Authority, NYCDOT or all three might read this all and FINALLY start using the brains G-d gave them!!”
You know, you’re all too right about someone here not using his or her brain. It’s just that it’s you, and not the planners at the Port Authority.
Shall we go through this again? I think we shall. I’ve got some time, so why the heck not?
The basis of design behind AirTrain is two-fold: 1) To circulate passengers within the Airport, and 2) to connect passengers to transportation points outside the Airport.
For the former basis, rapid-transit cars are particularly poorly suited. If you could magically bring the subway to JFK, where would you bring it? Have you ever been to JFK? There is no one central facility. It is a collection of terminals separated by great distance. The subway would have to be connected to each terminal and parking facility. Is this really the best use for a 600-foot long consist? Never mind that all AirTrain platforms would have to be lengthened, requiring greater capital expenditure.
As for the second basis, AirTrain has the advantage of providing a network of connections to the LIRR, A, E, and J trains. If you have bothered to look at a subway map, the A train alone is not readily accessible to many City Residents. Allowing those of us on the Upper East Side to take the E out to Jamaica is a big benefit.
”3. Spur from Howard Beach-JFK to JFK Airport (this idea would have made the original "Train to the Plane" right), run same as original JFK Express was run (I bet this would have had much better ridership, because it would have the one seat ride to Manhattan, and not to mention a one seat ride that takes less than an hour!!)”
Why was the original JFK Train to Plane discontinued? Because it was an operational headache for the MTA. Yes, it only stopped at Howard Beach, but that made it less of an operational nightmare. It never ventured on to the properties and had to deal with the increased scheduling complexities of making rounds through the airport stopping at terminals and long-term parking.
”4. GET RID OF THE CURRENT AIR TRAIN BECAUSE IT IS A $600 MILLION WASTE THAT I BELIEVE IS A FAILURE WAITING TO HAPPEN, AND WILL HAVE NO KIND OF REAL RIDERSHIP DUE TO THE LACK OF A ONE SEAT RIDE TO MANHATTAN!!”
Okay, prove it. Prove the Planning Studies wrong. Where is your data to the contrary?
Are you the laziest person? Are people going to get to Howard Beach, see they have to change trains, and then drop their bags and cry out in despair, only to head back to Manhattan having given up?
Let me tell you something about a one-seat ride. First, if you’ve ridden the subway in New York, you know that nobody has a one-seat ride to anywhere. I have to change trains every day to get to Times Square. Very few people can make a straight shot. Some even have to use three trains. It’s part of rapid transit. Every line can’t go directly to everywhere. Second, if you’re riding during rush, you’re not even going to have a seat. Why force patrons to crowd on a packed A train with luggage when they can take the LIRR?
Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t have a crystal ball, and I can’t tell if AirTrain will be a success. There’s lots of data to show that it will, and lots of armchair engineering to ignorantly criticize. I am on the record supporting a free transfer from the subway to AirTrain, or have a separate standard fare charge (like transferring to PATH from the subway). I also believe that the transfer should be as easy as possible.
Attitudes proclaiming failure not only sound foolish, but they will only hurt a potentially viable transit system.
MATT-2AV
P.S.: I think your [Caps Lock] key is stuck.
It will be a dud but more because of recent events.
Can you really see the MTA getting that project done for that price tag?
If this thing is even remotely sucessful watch out for private management of public transportation. Mike or Mark the mayor might use NPTO and the Canucks for the light rail part of a 2nd ave.
"It will be a dud but more because of recent events. "
C'mon, how about some optimism here? The airports are back to 85%-90% pre-attack capacity, and tourism will eventually return.
Anyway, no designer can plan for the unforeseeable Act of Evil. As such, you couldn't rule AirTrain a dud but another victim instead.
"Can you really see the MTA getting that project done for that price tag?"
No.
That's why I'm in favor of a whole AirTrain "second system", one that extends from Jamaica up the Van Wyck to LaGuardia, then across to Ditmars Boulevard in Queens, and possibly down to Long Island City. If money grew on trees, there could be a separate dedicated shuttle from Jamaica to either Penn Station or Grand Central, although this would require a transfer.
The MTA has a lot of priorities other than building on the Port Authority's property.
"Mike or Mark the mayor might use NPTO and the Canucks for the light rail part of a 2nd ave."
What light-rail part of the Second Avenue subway?!?
MATT-2AV
I truly believe that the "Airtrain" will be a dud. $5 one-way for what? It'll benefit few people IMO.
Besides, the most popular way to get to JFK/LGA happens to be a one-seat ride. It's called a taxi.
"I truly believe that the "Airtrain" will be a dud. $5 one-way for what? It'll benefit few people IMO."
Has anyone confirmed that $5 a fare number? Last I heard, it was only hearsay. I wouldn't put it past them. They'll charge whatever they can get away with, and really, who's to blame them?
$5 seems awfully steep, considering that can get you from Grand Central to White Plains (off peak) and with $0.25 left in your pocket. Why would they have a fare so outrageously outside the existing metro area fares. PATH, also operated by the Port Authority, is only $1.50.
Let's try and verify that number before we go ahead and write AirTrain’s obituary.
Now, on a completely unrelated note...
You know an awful lot about NYCT operations. I've asked this elsewhere, because I'm desperately searching for the info. Does the MTA keep a log of subway consist movements while in revenue service, and can the public get hold of it?
Thanks,
MATT-2AV
With very little sucess I told everyone here I interviewed with them and they said they were looking at a standard subway fare at least at first but that their minds were not made up.
Of course an actual Bombardier Airtrain senior manager is not really as good a source as idle gossip.
They don't plan on pricing out the airport workers so unless there is a two tier fare system it can't be $5.
Thanks for doing the research, and I hope we can put an end to one unsubstantiated rumor that's been floating around for several months.
MATT-2AV
There was a whole thread about Mike saying something about a limited 2nd Av.
If the airlines are up to those numbers why lay off all those people?
I took the airport bus on the way to Lefferts, it was dead the last time I took that job b4 WTC it was full of airline workers.
I don't know who this "Mike" guy is, but I really implore everyone here (once again, sigh...) to please read the planning study put forth by the MTA. I don't know if it still on their web site, but it is in *.pda format and you can view the entire thing.
Surface light rail and dedicated bus routes were all justly precluded from further consideration. Period.
MATT-2AV
Mike Bloomberg, look a week or two back here it was one of those week to die off threads.
I think his point was if it was a scaled down project or nothing take the scaled down project. As for light rail, I am not even sure what that is anymore with new tech and all the other stuff to blur the lines or is it just short trains like Airtrain.
I did read all that crap, my favorite was putting a people mover in from Grand Central to the Wall Street area.
Oh, Mike Bloomberg. Now I remember the thread. Sorry.
I didn't pay much attention to that thread, simply because it is a lot of hearsay and speculation. Mike Bloomberg isn't an engineer, and even as Mayor, he would only have a certain degree of influence over what happens -- not total authority. My take was that is was simply politician talk.
Politicians will often spout off irreverently about what should be done, but it is not necessarily feasible. Vallone (or was it Ferrer?) wanted to reopen the out of service stations along the MetroNorth Park Avenue line as a second rate substitute for a Second Avenue subway.
If the 2nd Avenue subway were to be scaled back, the most logical approach would be to construct the original stubway from 63rd to 125th Streets, leaving the section below 63rd for future consideration.
MATT-2AV
Personally I think the best they will get is something like 128st yard to put in and drop off more 6 trains along with higher speed signals.
1.Even tough most of what you say is correct,the A isn't acceable to city residents,if you look at the map closely the A is a meer hour away for any person on any other train.And the A connects with every subway line exept the 6.
2.The JFK express was basically a waste.But in reality,isn't that why we need the AirTrain?
3.If this whole WTC thing didn't happen then the AirTrain would be a good Idea.But now it isn't.No one is flying an no one is coming to New York.Like you I can't tell the future but I can say this.Tourism in New York is dead.The main attraction fell down and the only thing that's going to save this city is anything above Canal street.I hate to say it but when the Twin towers came down,so did every construction plan,every dream and every mony making idea in this city.But hey,I maybe wrong.
"Even tough most of what you say is correct,the A isn't acceable to city residents,if you look at the map closely the A is a meer hour away for any person on any other train.And the A connects with every subway line exept the 6."
That's why I said the A train alone. I'm afraid you misunderstood my statement. Most New York City residents do not have a one-seat ride on the A simply because they do not reside within walking distance of it's alignment. The A is the least impossible line to bring airport service to JFK, but the one-seat ride argument simply doesn't fly, pardon my pun. You'd have to transfer to the A, then get to the airport, even if you lived right on CPW in the West 70's.
"Tourism in New York is dead.The main attraction fell down and the only thing that's going to save this city is anything above Canal street."
Where is all this gloom and doom prophecy coming from? Relax, my friend. Tourism will return. There's no need for melodrama. The trade centers were only one of many attractions in the City. You can't claim that destroying the towers did for New York City what (hypothetically) destroying Disney World would do for Orlando. There's a heck of a lot above Canal Street. People are flying, for the airports are already at 85%-90% pre-attack capacity.
By the time AirTrain is finished and operational, things hopefully will be back to normal. Moreover, the AirTrain link to the subway was not intended primarily for tourists. Rather, it was for getting employees to the airport without driving. Tourists were the No. 2 basis behind the link to Howard Beach.
MATT-2AV
>>> Moreover, the AirTrain link to the subway was not intended primarily for tourists. Rather, it was for getting employees to the airport without driving. <<<
Although I agree with most of your arguments in favor of the AirTrain, I cannot go along with the idea that it was primarily for airport workers. At $5.00 per ride (plus subway fare) about the only workers that would regularly take it would be pilots and upper management. The janitors and baggage handlers will still arrive by bus.
Tom
As I was mentioning somewhere else (forgive me if you've read it), last I checked, the $5 fare was simply hearsay. Now, don't get me wrong, I totally wouldn't put it past them, and they'll charge whatever they feel they can get away with. Who's to blame them? If the fare is too high, then nobody will ride, and they'll have to lower the fare.
A $5 fare also seems highly illogical, in that it is way outside the existing fare systems for the Metro area. $5 can get you pretty far on MetroNorth or the LIRR. A $1.50 seems very reasonable to me. That's what it is on PATH, also operated by the Port Authority.
Maybe a $5 is accurate? Well, then, they get what they deserve. But let's confirm the fare and hold off writing AirTrain's obituary until we have hard evidence.
MATT-2AV
Unfortunately, the free bus provided by the Port Authority that many of them use will cease to exist when AirTrain opens.
stopping that bus would be total BS! Just to make people pay up or walk. That's just stupid and illogical...unless the PA's goal is to have people mad at them
The bus will be superfluous in route, although not in price. The PA doesn't acknowledge that $5 may mean something even to an air traveler (never mind that not everyone who goes to the airport is actually going there to fly).
>>> the free bus provided by the Port Authority that many of them use will cease to exist when AirTrain opens <<<
If the PA is now providing free transportation, it is possible that airport employees will get either a free or reduced rate pass to ride the AirTrain. After all, only air travelers are perceived as having bottomless pockets so they will not notice exorbitant fees tacked on to their journeys such as departure fees, security fees, high priced ground transportation, and the prices of everything sold at the airport at least 10% higher than the surrounding area.
Tom
Not to mention that the sky is falling!
I live in South Brooklyn & take it from me the air train will not benefit me. Considering if I wanted to go to JFK, I have to take the 2 from Flatbush, xfer to the LIRR at Atlantic & ride to Jamaica, then take the Air Train from Jamaica to JFK. With luggage, who will want the aggrivation?
The only people the Air Crap...err (sorry) Air Train will benefit are the airline flight crews who will find it easier to commute from Kew Gardens and Richmond Hill (both areas are havens for flight service personnel). Otherwise the Air Train will be an eyesore to my community, with no kind of benefit to anyone who lives in the area the construction of this emminent failure of a train inconvenienced.
or maybe not.
-some1
See my opinions, and a long discussion following, here.
Don't be so harsh on the MTA and the transit co.'s. After all they were mindful enough to provide you guys service! Try to live your lives without the LIRR, NYCT, and public transit and see how your life will change.
No SubTalker is the one who paid for the rail cars, tracks, signals, paint, equipment, and funding for the NYCT and LIRR,
so STOP complaining.
Simple.
Railfan Pete.
So who do you think did pay for the equipment? The tooth fairy?
A confirmed sighting of 6541-45, delivered sometime during the month of September, is in the process of testing on the road this evening with Cars 6696-6700.
What is this??? Cars 6356-60 and 6676-80 have appeared with blue stickers underneath their number plates on the cab ends. Does this mean these are intended to be assigned to the 3 Line, Livonia Yard or is there something else going on?
-Stef
Nice, though the 3 line will be getting some of the OPTION order, I refer you to this post Click Here
You're right! I overlooked this post! Sorry.
-Stef
Keep reading........then wait for the mods to put in your keys for a power test. Do any of you guys know where the brake handle goes? Looking upm from the hole, Peter
Read this crap but T/Os don't have to deal with vendors. It's confusing and made postings.......got my keys and BP 140 psi, run about 42 or so...........IF you have trainline comm. Let MTA get you there....Car Inspectors assure your safety. Peter
I am on the floor in tears laughing about #1 (are your pants wet yet?) and you make me pull out my butcher book. The cars you refer to are already revenue run and have received air brake modifications by Vapor (mechanical) and Alstom (software/electronics.) They also modified the doors (crew switches and drives/tracks) and updated the trainline software. They also wasted my time waiting by tying up the T/Os cab drilling holes in the door moulding and drilling/tapping for screws to keep the door frame from flapping about without support. The blue stripe alerts the T/O to the mod to recognise higher brake operation pressure. Peter
When you say updated the software, you mean announcements or like a new version of the management software?
I wonder about the trainline sodtware. Has it be tested thoroughly enough or will you keep getting "Illegal Operaton"?
#3 West End Jeff
I don't have enough experience to have seen 'illegal operation.' Besides, my work was engaged with the motormans key in AND the maintainance switch ON (the motorperson cannot bring that stuff up) which overrides some of the software. WE have some new messages which WE would like to hear but........Peter
With everything going on in the system now due to Sept. 11th, you'll find R-68's around Jamaica, as well as slant R-40 plying the Queens division on the Q (formerly R), E line R-32s on the Q, Queens Div. R-46s on the Q. One time about 4 or 5 months ago there was (get this!!) a 6 CAR TRAIN OF R-68s on the G line, and I know this firsthand because while working the G on this rather crazy Saturday on the G line (crazy because of a retard general order (G.O.) and the craziest mix of equipment because on this day a 10 car train of R-32's ran the line and I know this first hand because the G job I worked this day I "put in" from Jamaica Yard this 10-car G line R-32 train!!) I had the honor of doing a round trip with the 6-car R-68 trainset. Keep yours eyes open because you never know now what equipment might turn up and where it might turn up!!
Next is R-32's on the F line. I can feel it!
I wonder, is the Q train programmed into the electronic readings on the R-46 cars? Or is it too soon?
Here's how I'd sign them: (underscores indicate blank spaces)
Q _BRIGHTON_LOCAL
Q to_CONEY_ISLAND
Q _BRIGHTON_LOCAL
Q _71/CONTINENTAL
Q _BRIGHTON_LOCAL
Q _to_57_ST/7_AV_
I didn't know R46s had anything 'electronomical.' R68s have electronic crap group boxes run with a stepper motor........I'm appreciating the filthy simplicity of Doity Boids. Peter
I guess you've got much to learn. Much of what you work on as a car inspector is electro-mechanical. Say, like the door system? Now if you are going to be a car inspector, you might want to try to refer to things by their correct names. For example, the R-46 control group is known as the SCM-1. The R-68 and R-68A have E-cam controllers.
Of course since you are dismantling and cleaning, right now, that really doesn't much matter.
In regard to the Luminator R-46 displays, the Q most certainly is programmed into it!! As for R-32s on the F, they have done that before, so it is safe to say it will more than likely at some time happen again!!
Anyone know if the R143 announcements and sounds will be similar to that of the R142?
The Announcements are twin to that of the R-142 system, same dammit voices!
The R-143's take off sounds just like the Kawasaki R-142A Subway Cars (ex: 6 Line Cars)
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Are the transfer announcements pre- or post-7/22? That is, do they announce transfers to the N, Q, R and W trains at Union Square or just the N and R?
I don't know, although I hope it's post-9/24.
how did the r110a takeoff sound
r142man
Seventh Avenue Express
Well, I rode it so many times when it was in service...I could tell you...
Its takeoff was nothing like the R142As, that's all I can say here..But if you want to hear it...
You gotta call me up, or ask someone for a sound file with that train...
My number is (917)753-7828 and I will describe to you how it sounded...unless someone e-mails you a sound file...
Cleanairbus
I give the greatest credit to Mr. Pirmann and you subtalk guys for TA background info. I have personally never operated, learned upon or even seen a 143 despite my extensive knowledge (most has been forgotten) of the entire s-canned microwave transponder CBTC project. The R143 project is/was to run on the L line starting from the signal maintainers school on West 14th Street. 143s will probably go the R110 route......another wasted money project modified just to work for revenue. Peter
> I give the greatest credit to Mr. Pirmann and you subtalk guys for TA
> background info
Me? I don't work for the TA. All I know is what I read here....
That's ok too....everyone makes mistakes.....even the TA....and I love it. Peter
This evening about an hour and a half ago (approx) while riding on MARK Ws train we had to go EXPRESS due to a stalled R 68 Q train at 46st (BIE) we went EXP from Roosevelt Ave to Queens Plaza awsome ride.
Sometimes it happens. In fact, I saw around 750am yesterday while waiting for the E train, 2 F trains were going in the same direction on the w/b tracks. The train on the G/Q tracks was going to 21 St QueensBridge and the other was going to QueensBoro Plaza. Both were R46s. The 1 against the wall was 6098 and the other was 5866. Both left at the same time-weird to see 2 F trains leaving together on different tracks next to each other.
I've had 7 trains go Express on me in the evening going towards Manhattan on the local track. Since my station is 52 St, I had to get off at Woodside b/c the next stop was QueensBoro Plaza. Why they do that I have no clue-probably lateness.
#3584 E Queens Blvd Express
#9713 7 Flushing Local-Express
You hit it right on the head about the cause of the 7 train(or any train for that matter) ruuning express on the local.
Here's the article.
As has been discussed on this board, it looks like the MTA's going to have to make some really tough decisions--looking to choose the lesser of two evils. After reading the article, it seems like that will have to be raising the fares (but "politically unpalatable").
That is, the MTA (and more broadly) the city is going to face some incredibly hard times unless the federal government suddenly decides to give lots of money to NY with minimal strings attached, and that seems impossible.
Yuck.
Seth
You gotta be kidding right? Even after all that we had to go through this past month resulting from the destruction of the twin towers by a bunch of Middle Eastern Klingons, they still won't help us out. That is totally unacceptable. We should sue the feds if they refuse to help out. Lower Manhattan is a disaster area and deserves federal money to get it back to normal. Who in Washington is actually thinking not to help New York out right now? Who do they think they are, playing politics at a time like this?
Myth for suckers...Klingons leave no survivors
I hope anyone who read the article will understand that I wasn't trying to come with ways to cut costs/raise revenues because I'm anti mass transit. That's just the situation we are in.
For those who are willing to face up to it, the consensus seems to be in favor of raising fares.
You can't cut service on the subway, because the fixed costs are so high that the small benefit you get from few from fewer T/Os and conductors is dwarfed by the damage due to increased crowding.
Deferred maintenance -- if anyone sees any signs of it, please E-mail the other people on this board, so non-MTA employees can raise hell with the press and politicians.
On most routes, bus service is already infrequent, and the waits are too long. You might consider eliminating/combining routes, to get a longer walk but not a longer wait.
I say have a meeting to let the "community" complain about bus traffic. Then elminate all the routes people complain about to benefit "the community," forcing the actual community to beg for it back and condemn the NIMBYs.
If they are keeping the capital program going (a good thing), have them close all stations under repair. A longer walk, but big savings on the capital and operating ends, in exchange for a temporary long walk/bus ride.
As we went over in the other thread, Larry, I believe the consensus isn't whether to raise fares, but how.
I was impressed to hear Gene Russianoff sounding a similar note of realism (though the central issue wasn't fares) in viewing MTA funding in the discussion of future subway building a week ago at the Gotham Center.
What you think of zone fares? Theory? Practicality?
(What you think of zone fares? Theory? Practicality?)
Within the city, it would cost too much to implement, and it would raise equity issues as the city's neighborhoods shift and the poor live FURTHER from Manhattan. Plus, what would be its public purpose? Discourage those with lower incomes from living in Canarsie? On the other hand, we have zone fares. Everything within the subway zone is ZONE 1. Commuter rail within the City is Zone 2. Etc. Etc.
I'd prefer time of day pricing. Yes, some less affluent people have no choice but to start and nine and end at five, but most are rather more likely to have to work other shifts than the rest of us (think restaurants, stores, janitors, etc.) And there is a social benefit -- spread the load.
I think your other point is the right one -- the fare should go up every year by about as much as the TWU contract. Instead we get these catastrophic increases during a recession (and only during a recession) right when they hurt the most. Freakin politicos.
[re zone fares]
Within the city, it would cost too much to implement, and it would raise equity issues as the city's neighborhoods shift and the poor live FURTHER from Manhattan. Plus, what would be its public purpose? Discourage those with lower incomes from living in Canarsie? On the other hand, we have zone fares. Everything within the subway zone is ZONE 1. Commuter rail within the City is Zone 2. Etc. Etc.
Equity and politics aside, it would be difficult to impose zone fares in a practical sense, as you'd need exit swipes. In turn, that would create a need for more turnstiles at busy stations, not to mention MetroCard-refilling machines within the fare-paid areas. I know, a system like that works well on the DC Metro, but it would be much harder (though surely not impossible) to implement with respect to New York's busier system.
Going back to equitable issues for a minute, I suppose zone fares would be less burdensome on lower-income people than might be expected. While they may tend to live farther from Manhattan than do more affluent types, they also probably make more shorter-distance local trips, as opposed to trips into Manhattan.
(I suppose zone fares would be less burdensome on lower-income people than might be expected. While they may tend to live farther from Manhattan than do more affluent types, they also probably make more shorter-distance local trips, as opposed to trips into Manhattan.)
Those are bus trips. It think a peak hour, stepped up and stepped down increase (to $2.00 or more) would be equitable.
In theory, I'd love to see zone fares. They make sense. Let the people who ride longer distances pay more for their trips.
In practice, it can't happen. The necessary infrastructure just isn't there, and the TA isn't about to throw out the new turnstiles it just installed a few years ago.
(And the politics make it even harder to implement.)
(In theory, I'd love to see zone fares. They make sense. Let the people who ride longer distances pay more for their trips.)
In practice, there are fare zones -- all of the City is one zone, while the commuter railroads have higher fares.
Let's say you cover the deficit by raising the fare out to 179th Street on the F (and places like it) to $3.00. Does that mean the LIRR to Queens Village rises to $6.00? If not, everyone will be packing on the LIRR. And that means the train from Mineola would have to rise to $10.00, etc.
Better to implement peak hour pricing. The commuter railroads already have it. And toll all the crossing to Manhattan also, with peak hour pricing.
But the city is a big place. Why should it cost the same to ride half a mile (my knee is starting to hurt again -- it looks like I overdid today's railfanning -- so I'm sure I'll be making some such rides soon) as to ride from Pelham Bay Park to Rockaway Park?
Yes, LIRR and Metro-North fares would have to be adjusted. But they don't have to be adjusted so high that no subway rider switches to commuter rail -- on the contrary, commuter rail is less crowded than the subway, so switching should be gently encouraged.
I agree with your suggestions of peak surcharges and bridge tolls. The bridges, in particular, are treated as nothing more than city streets; that has to change. (Or, better yet -- watch out, as I'm somewhat of a radicalist here -- toll everything. Install E-ZPass readers on every single street in the city and "microtoll" away. But that would take a minimum of 15 years to implement and we need something sooner; the bridges are an appropriate place to start.)
Ok, well, the bridges/tunnels who aren't run by the TA or the PA could use some help. Charge extra money to cross them(like Shanghai does), but don't bother having tolls at every street - it'll take way to long, and no one would really want to drive. But changing fares could implement a problem - people who usually toss away their Metro card would have to keep it, and this would totally mess up the token users. Metrocards aren't as reliable to people who aren't used to them (i remember one instant w/ my friend at 34 St - Herald Square. So yes, toll briges/tunnels, but don't do the streets or variable fares.
Tolls would be implemented by E-ZPass or similar technology. The driver wouldn't even notice when his account is debited.
Do you really think tokens are going to be around forever? I doubt they'll make it through the next fare increase, whether that's to a new flat fare or to a distance-based fare. On the one hand, the TA is not going to allow people who paid $1.50 for a token to use that token to pay a new $1.75 or $2.00 fare; on the other hand, the TA is not going to mint a new token for the small minority of remaining token users.
Why, because the fare is NOT pegged to the actual cost of anything. What is the current "farebox recovery" for MTA NYCT
? Mabstoa? MN? LIRR? As all of these numbers I believe are far below 50%, then the only real question IMHO is what is the "farebox recovery" for sidewalks? Government is not a "profit" making enterprise. Public services are provided as a matter of policy and for the public "necessity and convenience".
So why surcharge the victim of timeclocks while giving a deql to the 'zeck who can miss the rush? Why surcharge the person who can't afford midtown rents and thus live in Canarsie (or Bay Ridge, or Richmond Hill, etc)? We long ago decided that "redlining" (albeit not rigorously enough)in other aspects of policy was unethical why not transit?
Why, because the fare is NOT pegged to the actual cost of anything. What is the current "farebox recovery" for MTA NYCT
? Mabstoa? MN? LIRR? As all of these numbers I believe are far below 50%, then the only real question IMHO is what is the "farebox recovery" for sidewalks? Government is not a "profit" making enterprise. Public services are provided as a matter of policy and for the public "necessity and convenience".
Why should transportation be a public service? There are many more basic services that are left for the private sector to worry about.
Without charges that at least roughly reflect costs, individuals have no incentive to make (communally) efficient choices. Right now, I think it's clear that we need to encourage people to be as efficient as they can, as our transportation resources are under a great deal of strain.
So why surcharge the victim of timeclocks while giving a deql to the 'zeck who can miss the rush? Why surcharge the person who can't afford midtown rents and thus live in Canarsie (or Bay Ridge, or Richmond Hill, etc)? We long ago decided that "redlining" (albeit not rigorously enough)in other aspects of policy was unethical why not transit?
I'm not proposing surcharging people based on their jobs or where they live (or why they live there). I would simply like to see fares have some relation to costs.
In the current system, the commuter from Harlem to Midtown subsidizes the commuter from Riverdale to Wall Street. Is that what you had in mind?
>>Why should transportation be a public service?<<
I thought that question was answered when the City, State, and Feds decided to invest in either subsidy, purchase of service or direct operation of same in order to ensure service levels BECAUSE by and large passenger transport is not a highly profitable enterprise unless you have very special circumstances. Absent the 'libertarian' loonies still dreaming that the "free" market will fix everything, it seems clear to me that very little economic activity in this country is genuinely 'free market' or unsubsidized. The milk we drink is not priced at actual cost, neither is the oil we use (bill each gallon sold for the cost of US military in the Gulf?). So why should any other aspect of 'public necessity' (no transit=no economy) be any different? Once you have granted this point, I think the rest falls into place. How we decide to "price" this product is a dynamic of incentives to riders versus stinginess of the non transit using elites who mainly 'own' our political system.
I suggest you read up on the history of the subway system here. The city had two private subway systems. All was basically fine until the city insisted that those companies not raise the fare and went ahead and built, on the public dole, a new, in many places competing, subway system. The city created the TA to solve a problem that the city itself caused a few decades earlier.
(I am not a libertarian in the usual sense but much of the basic libertarian philosophy makes sense.)
Yes, there are subsidies to milk and oil. They should stop. (See? I'm consistent.) A subsidy doesn't yield lower prices -- it simply shifts the prices to those who don't use the product or use it less than average. (The money has to come from somewhere, after all.) What's the advantage in that?
Why don't we do away with prices at the supermarket? Most of the items sold in a supermarket are as much necessities as are transportation, milk, and oil. So let's charge a nominal entry fee -- say, $10 -- and allow each store patron to then take as much or as little as he wants -- er, um, needs (after all, these are necessities). If $10 per customer isn't enough to support the store, the remainder would come from taxes. Can you identify any problems with this approach? How does this approach differ in principle with allowing travel anywhere in NYC for a flat $1.50 fare?
The IND was only half the problem for the IRT and the BMT the other was the building public parkways and freeways. Had the highways that were built at the time been tolled it may have been different. For example H&M (now PATH) was also unable to make a profit off its rail because of all the free roads.
I suggest you read up on the history of the subway system here. The city had two private subway systems. All was basically fine until the city insisted that those companies not raise the fare and went ahead and built, on the public dole, a new, in many places competing, subway system. The city created the TA to solve a problem that the city itself caused a few decades earlier.
By building the IND system, and restricting fare increases, the city did not cause the IRT's and BMT's demise, but merely hastened the process. Both of them would have been unable to operate under private ownership after the middle 1950's at the latest.
1. As the histories of CRT, H&M, and PTC demonstrate, ALL, US subway systems operated as 'privates' failed without the IND. (The IND competition with H&M between 9th and "33rd" is statisticly meaningless). The same historic facts apply to both streetcar/bus systems and commuter rail in the US. Basicly the capital expense of rush hour capacity cannot be re couped from the farebox. In this context, IMHO the question of fares remains political not economic per se.
2. I raised food pricing merely to remind how much of the current economy is 'distorted'.
3. Oil is however another matter. Automobile usage will I suspect regarded by historians a century or so from now as a really destructive chapter in human behavior. The 'unaccounted costs' of auto usage are immense. The 'social engineering' decisions after WWII to build the 'Levittowns' and their ilk led to massive economic dislocation in the urban cores. The creation of the Interstate system certainly was a nice gift to the construction trades but transfer of business from locals to the franchise strips by the offramps was devastating to many small towns. Were these consequences thought out when the original decisions were made? I doubt it. In the same way, I do not believe Hylan "merely" wanted to kill the IRT and BMT. More importantly, the point is that single decisions, such as incentivizing auto usage as opposed to transit usage has many results beyond merely screwing the transit dependant.
4. Fare and Transit equity. If you accept that reducing auto produced smog is a laudable goal, then what is to be done (my dear Lenin. Chernishevsky)? I maintain that NO part of our economy (save perhaps the illegal drug trade) is independently priced. Thus the issue becomes how should we tweak the system to get the results we want? Secondarily, as transit is a cost of doing business (as an individual) every dollar not spent on the farebox can be spent on something else (which in most cases will generate some tax revenues which in turn...) A sampling of the LATimes news stories from the LAMTA strike last year is instructive. Three ideas stand out. A headline--strike two weeks old who notices?--that is the buses are only for the non white poor who cares? Families scramble to provide alternate transport for nannies, maids. Transit dependent businesses, people suffer.--many elderly persons were unable to get to medical appointments, and businesses whose trade used transit suffered greatly. I see no wider social benefit to limiting or deincentivizing transit usage. As such, fares should be minimal or non-existant. Auto usage conversely should be economicly discouraged, both because of health, and econmoic defects. (Think of better land uses than acres of tarmac.) Secondly, I would encourage a return to the cities rather than the endless spread into further suburbs.
1. See Dand124's comments. Government-funded competition was not only in the form of the IND but also -- and predominantly -- in the form of highways.
2. Fine. But isn't the best solution to remove or at least reduce the distortion, from both transportation and food?
3. If you think you're arguing with me, I'm afraid I agree. I'd like to see those 'unaccounted costs' accounted for. Those who claim that roads aren't subsidized ignore, for instance, zoning laws that favor (or even require) suburban development, eminent domain, environmental effects, and the like -- not to mention that the only roads they generally consider are Interstate and perhaps state highways. Let's stop ignoring them and hold individuals fiscally responsible for the damage they cause.
4. This seems to be further thoughts on point 3. You mention smog. I'll comment that I don't consider smog to be a problem that we, as a society, have caused and that we, as a society, have to deal with. Smog is a problem caused by many individuals and the actions they take; our society should demand that those same individuals clean it up. (That would also discourage future individuals from causing such problems to begin with.)
1. dand124 wrote >>H&M (now PATH) was also unable to make a profit off
its rail because of all the free roads.<<
Excuse me but H&M' route is mainly parrallel to the TURNPIKE hardly free and then your choice of Tunnels also not free. Highway building certainly DID kill of passenger rail in the 50's 60's (as well as massively subsidized air travel)
2. NO I think the distortions are nearly inevitable. I am not sure that even with Big Brother information and a building full of Cray's or the latest Intel chip machines, an honest accounting of most endeavors is possible. In turn expecting each individual to pay the fully allocated cost of public services WHEN the overly wealthy elite are able to secede from paying taxes is ludicrous. (See the studies on infrastructure expenditures in the new distant suburbs of Chicago) I remind you of Larry Littlefield's analisis of 'upstate' parasiting from the five boros. the numbers back when Mailer ran for Mayor were astounding--43 % of NYS revenue generated in NYC, 16% expenditure for the five!
3. How do you hold individuals responsible for driving when government (heavily lobbied by auto makers et al) provide no real alternative?
4NO smog is a social construct.--The cars are built by 'licensed' businesses, the gasolines the same. The purpose of government (......common defense...domestic tranquility...) certainly includes regulating acivity detrimental to the public health. TheCAFE should be ratcheted up and the transit systems expanded and fares lowered AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC HEALTH as well as economic sense (stop bailing up hundred dollar bills and shipping them to oil exporting persons) And a whole bunch of the other 'hippie' energy saving systems should be built all over. (I believe that a Fed program to do DHW solar GRATIS for every residence in the nation would be a wonderful economic pump priming routine which would not only pay off in increased consumer spending as utility bills fall but also improve the balance of payments)
1. I'm speaking of rails vs. roads in general. On specific routes the free competition may not exist but once I have a car anyway (to take advantage of all the free roads) it's suddenly not so expensive to use it even on a toll road. Besides, toll roads may cover their construction costs but they don't cover their many hidden costs.
2. We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think we have any choice but to work on establishing a system of person-by-person accounting. With out it, we will continue to make socially inefficient (i.e., stupid) choices.
3. I wish I had an answer. For now, this is merely my ideology.
4. Assign proper costs and the problems go away. The only problem is convincing the beneficiaries of today's improper costs to accept the changes, and it's a very real problem.
"Why don't we do away with prices at the supermarket? Most of the items sold in a supermarket are as much necessities as are
transportation, milk, and oil. So let's charge a nominal entry fee -- say, $10 -- and allow each store patron to then take as much
or as little as he wants -- er, um, needs (after all, these are necessities). If $10 per customer isn't enough to support the store,
the remainder would come from taxes. Can you identify any problems with this approach? How does this approach differ in
principle with allowing travel anywhere in NYC for a flat $1.50 fare?"
Not a fair analogy! Foodstuffs get used up, and the cheaper they are, the faster they're used up. Transportation doesn't get "used up"; it doesn't disappear from the face of the Earth once it's been used by one more person (and so long as you run any trains, you'd still have to maintain them and the system, making maintence costs more or less flat, up to a point, I'm guessing).
You're (literally) comparing apples and wrenches, say.
Seth
The analogy is quite fair.
You claim that transportation doesn't get "used up." In that case, explain what happens when, try as you will, you are simply unable to cram yourself onto that 4 train. Explain what happens when there are two-hour delays at the Lincoln Tunnel. Explain what happens when the road surface buckles due to a continuous heavy flow of traffic. Explain what happens when an energy source runs dry. Explain what happens when your flight into LaGuardia is delayed an hour because the runways are full. Etc. All of these problems can be corrected, but those corrections cost money. Where should that money come from?
You're right that I was wrong that transportation doesn't get used up--I was thinking more along the lines of trains disappearing off the face of the Earth (which I think's a funny image).
But, where should the money to correct the problems come from? I'd say from those who have the ability to pay--that is, the MTA should get more state and federal funding, which ought to come from progressive taxes rather than a potentially regressive fare. Oh, but both options sound politically unpalatable, but in the long-run, I think the former is preferable (morally and pragmatically) to the latter or to holding the status quo.
Seth
I don't know why this approach is so popular.
We have two orthogonal issues. One is transportation. The other is helping the poor. What does one have to do with the other?
Let's determine who's rich and who's poor by looking at their paychecks and redistributing directly from one to the other. Perhaps set aside a portion of this "help-the-poor" money to be used for transportation expenses only (think of food stamps, which are forfeited if not used for food), although I think it would make more sense to allow those who make efficient transportation choices to make use of the money they save on other items.
On the transportation front, let's allow the TA to deal in transportation.
There are three problems with a flat fare (with "helping the poor" as a rationale). First, although, on average, the rich make shorter rides than the poor, that's only an average, and there are many exceptions. Scrutinizing paychecks is a more accurate way to determine someone's income than scrutinizing ride length. The richest don't even ride the subway; why should they be exempt? Second, it might be useful on occasion to determine exactly how much the rich help the poor; that's unnecessarily difficult to compute if the money comes in disparate forms. Third, we are in a nationwide transportation crisis because people make stupid and wasteful choices about how to use their transportation resources. Rather, they make communally stupid and wasteful choices, but because of the way they are priced, these choices make sense to the individual. How do we convince people to make smart choices? By pricing transportation so that the communally stupid is individually stupid and the communally smart is individually smart. In other words, charge fares based on the cost to provide the service.
You have accepted that transportation is very much like food in that both get used up. So, getting back to my earlier post, why don't we treat stores as we do transportation?
Keep in mind that what I'm saying goes for all transportation resources, not just the New York City subway. It has to be applied everywhere or it won't work.
I don't think they're orthogonal at all.
Both transportation and helping the poor form part of a healthy and stable society. By improving transportation, we can help the poor (or at least not screw them over any further), just as by not hurting the poor, we can get an environment in which we can build a stable infrastructure. Certainly there are more direct ways of doing each, but those are even more politically unpalatable (even income taxes are still somewhat controversial, and there are constantly moves to make them more regressive).
As for the MTA's mandate, it says it's a "public-benefit corporation" (whatever that means), which I interpret as meaning its primary concern is to provide public transportation for the public good (whatever that is). So, yes, it should focus on transportation, on building, maintaining, and bettering that infrastructure, but as it is not a private corporation and receives some money from the state (would be nice if it got more from the state and feds), it need not be self-sufficient--it can make decisions based on broader concerns than breaking even. So long as its decisions don't cause the loss of more transportation-related benefits than they give to people, it should continue making them.
Admittedly, the above is vague in its prescription, but I don't have any concrete way of arguing it either way, because I have no idea how one would measure the effects of the MTA's decisions on things other than transportation.
Back to the beginning of this subthread, we don't treat stores like we do transportation (all such resources) because transportation (focusing on the auto here) is easily, easily dominated by large, powerful, oligopolistic companies, and there's no way around that (short of nationalizing them, which would be unpalatable, quite possibly quite stupid, and, gasp!, un-American). Stores, on the other hand, really must compete with each other, and their political sway is much less. That is, grocery stores make a much, much better example of liberal capitalism working (in areas with a bunch of grocery stores, at least).
So, it all comes down to politics in terms of being able to implement fares based on the cost of service for all transporation resources. We can't do it all the way, short of huge changes that could not occur immediately because most people wouldn't stand for it, and I don't think a half-measure in this case is helpful. If we could charge everything fairly, though, it would definitely be preferable.
Seth
I'm sure the new turnstile card readers could be adjusted fairly easily to handle a zone fare set-up. The problem would be that you would end up giving the lowest fares to the people in the highest income areas -- midtown Manhattan -- because they are less likely to use the subway for a trip to the other boroughs, unless they're going to a Yankees or a Mets game. Meanwhile, people in lower income areas of the other boroughs who work in Manhattan would be paying more in daily fares, even though odds are their annual income is lower than those people in midtown Manhattan (certain places like Brooklyn Heights and Forest Hills excepted).
WMATA and BART were able to begin their systems with zoned fares because the technology was there by the early 1970s to do so. New York and other early 20th Century subway systems had to make do with what was available at the time, and switching over now would make the battle over rent control seem like a walk in the park.
>>WMATA and BART were able to begin their systems
with zoned fares because the technology was there by
the early 1970s to do so<<
I disagree, the technology was merely the facillitator, and FWIW it breaks down a lot. No, IMHO, the design in both cases had to do with a mix of anti-subway (...we're not like the NY subways--we're more like the LIRR...) attitude and starting fresh without a history of equitable fares. DC, where I grew up, had a history of exorbitant zone fares for all of the suburban systems, with little interline transfer privileges to the in the district system during the private era. (mind you my home was ten miles from the White House easily less than a ride on many long TA routes, but double local fare in town) As I have posted elsewhere, the swipe to exit system would not be feasible in a seriously used system such as NY--imagine a sardine packed ten car train emptying out at a midtown station.
BTW, irony of ironies dept--WMATA which certainly like unto BART was built to haul suburban briefcases (mainly white) into town for M-F work schedues which is why Sat service starting at 8 AM is still in effect) is now experiencing major ridership growth (at least pre 11 Sept) BUT according to the Wash Post, 60% of the rides are .9 miles. Can you say urban core subway? Finally, zone fares just may be found in violation of the Civil Rights Act. The LA MTA which has consistently REFUSED to provide adequate equipment for bus lines serving the poor (read 'of color') has lost its appeal at the CAppellate level. If they are dumb enough to try the USSC, we may get an interesting decision. While in this case the issue was funnelling money to overpriced low ridership suburban rail routes, the fare structure issue may be next. The interesting numvers have to do with how many tax dollars to generate each rider. and why spend ten to twenty times as much to convenience one suburban rider when the same money would provide for more local riders.
Exactly...i live on the outer extreme edge of the red line...i end up paying 3.25 to get packed like sardines...also...you'll have to install twice as many exits/entrances, which will probably end up costing more than raising the fare itself...
I don't think a suit against "pay-by-distance" subway fares in New York would stand up once it made its way through the courts, because that's the same basis the NYC Taxi and Limousine Commission has been using to gauge cab fares (airports now excluded) for years. Cabs aren't the "mass transit" system subways or buses are, but they are a public transportation system.
If Metrocard readers had been around in October 1904, the NYC subway probably would have been set up as a "pay-by-distance" system. But it wasn't, and once things like a standard flat fare are set in place, it's hard to change things around. However, while the technology is proably in place thoughout the system now for a zone fare set-up, politically it would be suicide for whoever imposed it, since there are far more voters combined in the outer boroughs than thare are in Manhattan. If anything was to be put in place using the Metrocard other that an across-the-board fare increase, I would say a bus/subway transfer surcharge of 25 cents or so would be the most likely option.
The speculation is that Boston will be going to a Zone Fare system once they get the new smart card fare collection system in place. Boston has always had some Zone Fares and some regular fares.
I vehemently object to the notion that the rich should support the poor through subway fares.
Yes, I agree that the rich should support the poor, but such support should be funded from income taxes. The distance I ride on the subway is a very poor measure of whether I'm rich or poor; my income is a much more accurate measure.
Should subway commuters from Harlem subsidize subway commuters from Riverdale? (They do, since they ride shorter distances.)
Should wealthy subway riders subsidize the poor more than wealthy nonriders? (They do, following your reasoning that most of the wealthy travel shorter distances than the poor.)
The fare should reflect the cost of the transportation provided. Does the TA run a subway system or a welfare system?
If you could match the census numbers by the zip codes for average household income with Metrocard boarding/disembarking patterns, I'd be willing to bet it would show people from generally the highest income areas of NYC travel the shortest distances, while people from middle and lower-income areas make on average longer daily trips.
The numbers aren't foolproof -- the Lower East Side is closer to midtown that Forest Hills, just like Harlem's closer than Riverdale -- but on average a "pay-by-distance" system would hit people earning the lower incomes harder than it would the people with the highest incomes who use the buses and subways. And since about six million of the eight million people in NYC live outside of Manhattan, going to a system like that would take a group of politicians with both balls of steel and no concern about taking up future employment either within the private sector and/or in another part of the United States.
If you could match the census numbers by the zip codes for average household income with Metrocard boarding/disembarking patterns, I'd be willing to bet it would show people from generally the highest income areas of NYC travel the shortest distances, while people from middle and lower-income areas make on average longer daily trips.
The numbers aren't foolproof -- the Lower East Side is closer to midtown that Forest Hills, just like Harlem's closer than Riverdale -- but on average a "pay-by-distance" system would hit people earning the lower incomes harder than it would the people with the highest incomes who use the buses and subways
As I mentioned before, it's a bit misleading to consider trips to work to the exclusion of all others. It seems fairly likely that lower-income people are more likely to use the subway for non-work uses than are the more affluent types. And it's also likely that many of these "other" trips are fairly short distance.
On average. There's the problem. Not all of us fit neatly into the averages.
What's wrong with my suggestion? On the one hand, we have a transportation system to maintain. On the other hand, society (as we understand it) helps the poor. The two have nothing to do with each other. Let the Transit Authority worry about transit and only transit, funding it in whatever way is best for the purposes of transit. Identifying rich and poor is best (most accurately) done through income taxes, not through travel patterns; that's how we should help the poor. One should have no impact on the other. Otherwise we end up with an inefficient transit system, we have cases of the poor subsidizing the rich, and we have no idea quite how much of any individual's $1.50 is paying for his own ride and how much is paying for someone else's. A mess, in other words.
I'm not saying zoned fares like WMATA and other lines are neccessarily a bad idea, just that within the policitcal context of New York, it's an unworkable idea, based on the backdown the politicans did on the rent control/rent stablization issue a few years ago.
While it's true there are probably some people who live in Queens, Brooklyn and the Bronx who take mass transit to their jobs within the same borough and could actually benefit from a zoned system, any politician who proposes a "fare-by-distance" plan would have to face the fact that the tebloids and the TV stations would go out to Mott Ave. in Far Rockaway and find some poor person who works in midtown Manhattan and then find someone on the Upper East Side or living near Central Park West who works in midtown or lower Manhattan and they would use those two people to show how the change would affect the average New Yorker.
Not fair? To a certain extent, yes, but it would be eye catching, sensationalist and the press would have a field day after that going to Mayor Green or Bloomberg and asking them why they want to allow this sort of thing to happen to the poor people outside of Manhattan (though I guess if it had been Ferrer or Bloomberg in the general election, Freddy would have just said this is a reason why we need to move much of the finanical district to the outer boroughs).
I agree that the plan is simply impossible, both politically and logistically.
It would still make a lot more sense than what we have now.
The folks with the high income (for example over $100,000) take Taxis or Car services (paid for by their company). I live in a "high income" area and you can never find an available taxi during the morning rush because they are all taken.
Over $100,000 in some places on the Upper East and upper West Sides doesn't mean much anymore as far as disposable income goes if your monthly rent is $3,000, so a lot of those people are still taking the subway. But that would be the income level the New or Post or one of the TV station would use to compare with that poor person over on Mott Ave. if a "pay-by-distance" fare plan was proposed.
A closed station will leave subways rider to abandoned their subway commute and turn to buy cars.
The MTA is in a lose - lose situation. As the NYT article says, raising fares and/or tolls is the equivalent of raising taxes - in a looming recession. That's bad economics (as failed candidate Ferrer discovered Thursday). Reducing service creates political problems, like deciding whose service gets the ax. It's easier for the MTA to take the political heat for raising fares and tolls. They'll probably raise the tolls by a higher percentage than the transit fares. No easy solutions this time around.
You can't cut service on the subway, because the fixed costs are so high that the small benefit you get from few from fewer T/Os and conductors is dwarfed by the damage due to increased crowding.
Is that really true? I would have thought that the subway's fixed costs would be fairly low as a percentage of the total.
(Is that really true? I would have thought that the subway's fixed costs would be fairly low as a percentage of the total.)
I don't have my copy of the budget with me, but I do know that conductors/TOs are a small share of the subway workforce. You've got stations people, signal operators, Maintenance of Way, etc, plus the people maintaining the trains. You cut service, the commute becomes hell, but you still have all those other people.
What was the closed station?
Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle.
Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle.
Which, according to rumor/urban legend, had more turnstile-jumpers than paying customers in its final years.
Anyone in car equipment feel like confirming, denying or issuing
a no comment on a faint rumor that the number of redbirds to be
held in reserve is being drastically increased because of the
poor MDBF of the new cars? What is the current MDBF of these
two classes, btw?
Can't give numbers cuz me stupido but welders torch is faster than 142 acceptance and 180th St. crew transferred to 239. RedBOIDS undergoing scheduled maintainance far faster than 142 mod sked. Result: fix BOIDS cuz 142 mods pull out revenue service. Stinky doity boids....pay your buck fifty or purchase alternative transport.
Run 'em through the boidbaths in the yards.
Soitanly!
I heard statements by both RTO and CED personel Friday that a last shipment of R142s was turned back on Thursday at 239 Street, and the VP of Subways may have ordered a delay in future retirements of car equipment, because of a fleet defect in new cars. They are currently changing out the current collectors and have been having problems with the tripping devices. Anyone else know what the fleetwide defect on this is?
No wonder everyone likes me there!!!!! Mucho door problems....crew switches and door tracks replaced (doors still go haywire,) the brake mods, new bolts and other hardware, Alstom 'Agate' systems crashing (causing ficticious errors and loss of trainline comm,) now rubber torsion rod donuts wearing out......so much more to come.......now I really appreciate Redbird Carbody. Peter
There is no mod for the 3rd rail shoe...it just stinks until it gets busted off or the tension spring breaks and replaced again. As for the emergency trip, we just keep checking them 'in the hole.'
Were these problems existing when the R27 and R30s were being replaced? What cars replaced the R27/R30. I was thinking it was the R44s.
#5360 R44 A 8 Av Express
[What cars replaced the R27/R30.]
R68n/A's.
2- Nothing!!! (a big mistake, these cars could have lived much longer)
BMT REDBIRD
R-27/R-30 to live much longer? those things were in the poorest of shape. they couldn't go any longer because they were a mechanical mess. one of the deep down reasons that we don't know about that the MTA made these decisions.
Some of the R-27/30s had just been GOHed before they were scrapped -- it was the R-16s that were in awful shape when they were dumped in 1987.
The R-27/30s went bye-bye because the MTA wanted an all air-conditioned B Division, and reportedly found the retrofit would have made the cars too heavy. The MTA also failed to see the increase in passenger load due to both the drop in NYC's crime rate and the introduction of the Metrocard transfer would make the loss of those trains a major problem by 1997. Take away those two factors, and the R-27/30s would be in their initial phase out stage right now with the R-143 arrivals, the same as the IRT Redbird fleet.
Some of the oldest Redbirds (R26/R28) are OLDER than the R27/30 and they are still running! I felt bad when they scrapped the R30A GOH cars, but they were NOT going to retain them without A/C. I still wonder if they couldn't have done the A/C retrofit the same way they did to the IRT cars (with the A/C blowers replacing the axiflo fans)
wayne
I would have thought that between 1978, when the first R-33s started getting their AC retrofits, and 1990 or so, the improvement in technology would have allowed for some weight reduction in the ceiling mounted system the IRT had.
The MTA might have looked into it, if the passenger numbers in 1991-92 had been anywhere near where they were six years later. But with conditions they way they were back then (which is the only reason Giuliani got elected), the people in charge thought they could get away with scrapping a couple hundred more cars for the public relations benefits an all air-conditioned IND and BMT would entail. They were wrong and as a result, the MTA will be 200-plus cars short for at least the next six-18 months, depending on how long it takes the R-143s to come on line.
I wonder if the Bondo Squad is still around.:-)
Unless the Taliban has cornered the market in Bondo (they need to patch a lot of things right now) I'd imagine the MTA can probably special order a tub or two more of the stuff until the R-142s learn how to straighten up and fly right...
Cars i have worked on have nearly two million miles logged and they still work.......r142s full of bugs. Peter
The R-143. A decade (or more) late.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAA-MEN!
As for the class defect........ simply put...
Thou Shalt Not Attempt to Replace Thy Redbird Fleet!
1SF9
desktop this one !
REDBIRD !! HOW BOUT THIS ONE SOUTH FERRY !!!
Somebody please explain why transit systems always want "modern" equipment. All of the basic tech for electric traction is 40, 50, 80 years old, and yet there's always new tech on trains THAT DOESN'T WORK. Anybody been on a Boston LRV? Oh wait, even though they were delivered in 1976-1977, you couldn't ride them for a year or two, they were so problematic. They didn't fully replace PCC service until 1985 or so--but with Kinki type 8's that had a lot more in common with basic PCC control than the LRV chopper control. Same with the doors. The current remaining LRV fleet got retro-fitted with standard folding doors when they got a complete overhaul. Streetcars needing an overhaul when they're 20? NYCTA can run a bus almost that long. What if we design a brand new Redbird; one that looks sleek and shiny, but that has components that don't need to be tested because they've been proving themselves for the last 40 years? Oh, and ones that don't talk. People (C/Rs, for instance) talk, trains move people.
Sounds like your talking about a IRT version of the R32.
Now I would have like to have seen that! When I first saw the R32 (before it was overhauled) with its shiny exterior and its blue doors, I wondered why couldn't the IRT have subway cars like the R32. IRT cars were gray, dirty and completely covered in grafitti. Of course the B-division had its share of grafitti-covered trains in the R16s, R27s and R30s in the 70s and early 80s, but at least it also had the R32s (and the R38-46 cars as well).
>>>Streetcars needing an overhaul when they're 20? NYCTA can run a bus almost that long.<<<
But then that bus has to be retired and replaced. Streetcars are overhauled but can continue to run well after that overhaul. Look at Boston's Mattapan PCCs and San Francisco's F-line. There you have 50+ year old streetcars still in service after being overhauled. Philadelphia's Girard Avenue is soon going to host PCC cars, almost ten years after they last ran there. You won't find any 50-year old city buses still carrying passengers today.
Boston's (and San Francisco's) Boeing-Vertol LRVs were pressed into service too quickly and they did have a lot of unproven technology. Politics more than anything else are to blame for the poor reliability of the Boeing LRVs. They were paid for with federal funds and the feds(UMTA) insisted that the cars be built by American companies, none of which had experience building streetcars. In the 70s, there were no more streetcar manufacturers, as the market for streetcars dried up in the 50s because buses were considered more modern then.
And that was the point, to have something modern (or something that was believed to be modern at the time). You ask why transit systems want modern equipment. Why shouldn't they want them. Everybody likes to have something new and modern. Technology advances. If Chevy still made the Vega or Ford still made the Maverick, virtually unchanged from 30 years ago, would you buy one? If an airline flew all of its intercity flights with DC3 propeller planes today, would you fly on that airline? Of course not! If car companies and airlines insist on modern technology for their cars and planes, why should transit systems not do the same? Why should transit systems not incorporate modern features on subway cars, LRVs and buses? Transit has to be made appealing to people. It needs to give people a convincing reason not to drive to work. Smart transit systems (like PATCO, BART and WMATA) know that. They give their riders modern, comfortable trains to travel in.
Obviously, the NYC Subway is not PATCO, BART or WMATA (though the 2nd Avenue line, if built, could be similar). But don't the riders of New York, especially on the eastern Bronx and Flushing IRT lines, deserve modern subway cars too?
Your comparison is absolutely correct BUT no city runs equipment on 100 year old roadbeds 24/7 like my city (maybe Tokyo?) So, MTA had been pushing so that riders could have the comfort of the new trains and it backfired because the number of bugs and necessary modifications are innumerable. Blame Bombardier and THEIR vendors for trying to make a fast buck (remember Grumman/Flexible busses?)
Got my OWN by myself assignment today: CarBody on a Redbird. Again really dirty but it WAS GREAT!!!!!!!! Peter
donta makem' lika' day' usta'
LIKE THIS BEAUTY !!!
Thats beautiful. Where is that baby now?
Well I know about the faulty brake pads, the unfixable canned announcements, some stalled motors and one report that the car body might come loose from its frame (SEPTA's new Adtranz El cars had that same problem too but they seem to be all right now). What other problems do the Bombardier cars seem to be having? I see a lot of them in service. They look like they're doing fine in service. What seems to be the trouble? How about the Kawasaki cars. I see plenty of them in service.
We don't get the answers down the line but why would ALL crew switches in all cars be replaced??? (Doors opening without command.)
Torque rod bushings are too soft....ALL being replaced. Happening before our eyes...at least contract workers get a reprieve. Peter
100 year old roadbeds? Again, Boston. No where near as much traffic on no where near as much track millage, but Boylston to Park St is circa 1897. (Incidentally, the unused spur out of Boylston is where they hid the LRVs once they got pulled from revenue service. Also, it's not clear to me what really happened with the Vader busses. They still run those in NJT colors in Jersey. Did they malfunction in the Bronx, but not in Mattewan?
The Boston "Wartime" PCCs from the early 1940's ran through the late 70's/early 80's before needing to be overhauled. Thats 30 years or more. How long did the Redbirds run before being overhauled? I don't know if the builder's plates reflect the only re-build, or just the current one, but it seems that if they're from the late 50's, and got a re-build in the late 80's, thats again over 30 years. Which makes the Boston LRV's young for electric traction. Don't misunderstand me--I'll ride an LRV over a city bus any day. Send 'em down Nostrand Ave, instead of the B44. And as for modern equipment, I didn't say don't get new equipment to replace 40 year old cars. What I said was: design new equipment without flashy new b.s. that causes trouble. Imagine a car that looks like the R-142 on the outside, with brand new Redbird components on the inside. Components that clearly work, cuz the NYCTA has been using them for decades. (I would add better side destination signs to this than the garbage on the R-142s. What's the point of a color coded map, if you take the color off the trains? And no more talking trains. Let celebs do the announcements, just like in the Taxis. There could even be a contest: winner gets to record the station announcements to play in a brand new 2 train.)
Oh--P.S. Transit systems shouldn't include "modern" features when they don't function properly, don't enhance the commute of a staphanger, or are just an uglier version of something less modern. Digital side destination signs: Don't work if you're a tourist, thinking "I need to take this red line" when there isn't a color on the train at all. They're also ugly. Automated station announcements: I was on a 6 train that assured me that Bleeker St, Canal St, and Brooklyn Bridge were all Bleeker St, and that I could connect there fore the B, Q and D trains, something that I cannot do. They don't work, and they're creepy.
oooooooh yes! sing it now !! { the r-142s they 'R' 'A' Breakin down already } < repeat chorus & add music !!......lol!!
GO REDBIRDS !! HOW BOUT THIS SOUTH FERRY ( my soul brother in nyc ) !!! ..........lol!!
THE REDBIRDS LIVE ON!!!!!
where was this picture taken?
answer main stret flushing new york # 7 line !!
They're reprieved due to bug corrections in the R-142/142A. The Redbirds are venerable, and of course reliable giving they been running for four decades!! Let's see the 142/142A make a lasting run like that....I DON'T THINK SO!! Trains aren't built to last like they used to be!!
of course trains aren't built to last. thats why the redbirds are going on barges out to sea. Redbirds weren't such hot items to begin with either. they ran 4 decades with only 1 and a half decades of reliable service. if you could get a hold of the Redbird records from its debut i service, you would see the mess of mechanical problems that existed at the beginning of its life. then worked out a few years later up to good reliability. when you research, this will show you that new rolling stock with mech. hiccups is normal. so get over your bias and ignorance.
??? ok do you have the old records handy ?? please post them here ASAP !!!!
SEE ???.....THIS IS WHAT YOU LIKE !! NEW JUNKERS LIKE THIS PIECE OF JUNK IN LOS ANGELES !!!
If you rode the Redbirds (back when they were covered with grafitti) or any other cars in the 70s and early 80s, you'd know exactly how bad they were!
too much spray paint !! hand cans that is !! @ at least they didnt "scratchitti" the windows !!!
img src = http://wsphotofews.excite.com/034/Th/sI/bN/FH35674.jpg>
I think you failed trying to post a picture.
right i di not put the < before the rest of the code !!
now i got it right !! remember to PREVIEW first !! ........lol !!
too much spray paint !! hand cans that is !! @ at least they didnt "scratchitti" the windows !!!.......lol!!!
yeah because i don't like old junkers that are choppy and rusty and falling apart as they run
you shouldn't even talk because your metro system is new. those cars are 4 years old and they aren't running bad anymore.
there is a large OVERSTOCK of them parts are taken off of some to go to others !! ---like some auto junkyard !!
@ please note several operators told me this !!!
these UGLY CARS are being "scrapped" to repair other cars !!! ..........................................lol!!
but they are up and running
Mean Distance Between Failures, July 1976 and July 1977 (from A NEW DIRECTION IN TRANSIT, New York City Planning Commission, December 1978):
July 1976
R-26: 16,825
R-28: 16,789
R-29: 11,361
R-33: 14,085
R-36: 52,512
July 1977
R-26: 14,148
R-28: 10,921
R-29: 17,604
R-33: 12,647
R-36: 49,324
Mean Distance Between Failures, July, 2001 (from NYC Transit Committee Agenda, September 2001; note that these classes are being retired, so figures do not represent the full complement of cars in each class)
R-26: 22,113 (previous month, 320,939)
R-28: 89,793
R-29: 77,274
R-33: 112,064
R-36: 95,748
Hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds.....
Next week may be my last chance to say that.
answer ...the same good old place ........my favorite subway line #7 at main street !!!!!!! .......lol !!
2000 world series !!!
Yet another R142 train stalled in the Clark Street Tubes this afternoon around 3:30 PM.
No written confirmations!!!!!!!!!!!but the place was buzzing Friday and word today is 200 boids will roost (roast) in my barn. The R142 I did undercar on was held up with door problems.....CI to sup to Bomb. to Vapor to Bomb. to ? Peter
What??? Thats the third one in as many weeks.......
I found today a pallet of current collectors from 6500 numbered R142 cars behind the main shop, one of the modifications being done. I thought to myself upon reading the Out of Service Newsletter we get monthly on how the VP of Subways was claiming reliability, sleek and smooth running as the promise of the new cars. I got an email today that they are delaying the retirement of older equipment. Perhaps they should rename the contract numbers to R46, so then we will not be surprised when the P-wire fails, the air bags rupture, and Kawasaki goes Kamakazi.
Better order some more Bondo....
MAKE MY DAY !!! >>>>>>>>GO >>>>>>GO>>>>>>>REDBIRDS....!!!...............lol
SCRAP THE R-142s ..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone who has been lucky enough to see YAOP-33 (this is the old freight call letter, it might have changed with the CSX part-takeover of Conrail; anyone who may know the new call letter please do inform me) in the morning arriving at Fresh Pond yard from Oak Point no longer has the B23-7s anymore....now check out the 3000 horsepower SD40-2's that haul this freight in. Just 2 of the SD40-2's pull the train that 5 or 6 B23-7s used to pull, and the SD40-2s have one hell of a growl when they get revving!! (a GM/EMD 645E, 3000 HP, 12 CYL. engine will definitely make some noise!! :-) )One time when the freight was hauling in a load of welded rails for the LIRR main line track project, this train had 4 SD40-2s hauling it (man you talk about the ground shaking). The SD40-2s still sport Conrail blue and white (some lettered Conrail Quality) but the numbers are yellow with a yellow CSXT under the number, indicating who the new owner is.
Hey be on the look out for the "Candy Reds", which are CP Rail's SD40-2s which bring a train several times a week, with brand new R-142s on flats arriving on this train from Bombardier at Plattsburgh. Does anybody know anything about the Providence & Worcester freight that comes down to Fresh Pond? I saw 5 or 6 P&W B23-7s sitting out in Fresh Pond late one morning. How often does this train come to Fresh Pond and what's its call letter?
Wow 6 motors turbocharged EMD power on Long Island! And to think the last regular 6 motor power were the NH ex VGN locos (now known as E-33)
Phil Hom
The SD40-2 has a 16 cylinder 645E.
The 645 developed a lot more HP, but I still prefer the older and smaller 567 as in the F-7 and GP-9. Their rev-up whine sound was really distinctive. I have some recordings, and they really do it for me!
Karl B, The difference in sound is due to turbocharging (forcing air into the combustion chamber with a turbine wheel which is driven by the engine's exhaust) rather than by a Roots Blower which is geared to the engine shaft. Ex. A 645E6 (GP38-2 application) would be more pleasent sounding to you than a 567D1 (GP20) because that particular 645 has a Roots Blower while that 567 has a turbocharger. EMD engines have no vacuum to suck air into their cylinders so either a turbocharger or blower is needed. Also, in practice, a turbo will increase a given EMD's horsepower by 50% over a blower. (645E3 turbo= 3000HP, 645E6 Roots Blower=2000HP)
John, Over the years I have had a lot of exposure to SD-40's on the WM. I actually got to operate a EL SD-45 (part of 45-45-35 lash-up) in the old D&H yards in Wilkes Barre. While they had a good solid sound, I did not like it as much as the 567.
I have never had any close contact with a GP-38-2 even though the D&H got some as a result of Conrail in 1976. I believe that CSX still operates GP-38-2's through town here on occasion. I will have to make an attempt to get close to one. You may be right!
MFE36D6s (EL road class for their SD45s) were the most majestic diesels ever.
I guess that you know that the D & H bought 3 EMD Demo SD-45's and numbered them 801, 2 & 3. They were the only GM diesels the D & H had so they long term loaned them to the EL for 3 EL U33C's. The EL repainted them in the El paint scheme, but they always kept the D & H numbers for the almost ten years they were on the EL. The D & H got them back just before EL became part of Conrail in 1976. It's funny but D & H wound up with a lot of GM diesels as a result of Conrail, some brand new, some RDG and some LV.
Did you prefer the EL stretch frame SD-45 or the standard? An SD-45 in EL paint was a sharp looking engine. Almost any model looked good in the EL colors though. The D & H paint job wasn't bad either, but my favorite had to be the RDG paint job. They only had 5 SD-45's but when they were clean, the yellow and green paint scheme really looked sharp!
Actually, I prefer the MFE36-6 (SD45-2)most of all but the MFE36D6A (SDP45,'45M depending on order) were nice also.
To be specific on that EL lash-up. My picture notes indicate that it was El 3638-3637-2564 (45-45-35). 3638 was the lead unit southbound. It was the first time I had seen an EL powered train come into Wilkes Barre on the D & H. 2564 was fouled because of an inoperative toilet. The smell was so bad that it could not be used as a lead unit going north. The hostler had to break the three units apart, and turn all three on WB's very short turntable so that they were reassembled facing north the same way as they had come south. It took a while to accomplish this. I got to ride all three (even the stinky one), and did get to operate 3638.
The date was Aug 8th 1970, and my notes indicate that 3637 & 3638 were SD-45's. In the actual slides they appear to be SDP-45's.
3637 and 3638 were MFE36D6As (SDP-45s) 3638 was later, along with 3632 (MFE36D6 - SD45) repainted Red, White and Blue as EL's Bicentennial locomotives
Hey you forgot the chant the GP38-2 makes......that's a growl in itself!! And when that sucker is up to speed....ooooo wee!!!
Thanks for the correction....was thinking about the GP38 in regard to the cylinders!! :-p :-)
the SDs have been the norm for at least a year now on the CSX run. the CP run has been SD40-2 since it's inception.
Here's the brief hsitory - when csx got the line in the CR buy, they started to phase out the B23's. for a short while they used B-36-7s before MNCR balked at having them going down the hudson line (soemthing to do with their breaking systems). Thus CSX modified a batch of SD40-2s (they need the snowplows clipped a bit so as not to foul the hudson line 3rd rail) to handle this run. i once saw one run with 3 SDs and a B-36 in them 'early days' of the operation. i know some GP40s have also received the modified snowplow, but 2 SDs are the usual power. (i've seen up to 4 though).
PW is a tuesday (inbound), friday (emptys north) operation, only during warm months. they've been mixing in many of the new cabless booster units they got off BN, so a good long train for them can have up to 6 u23,b23,b30-cabless units. plus they have a super 7 or 2...
cp has always been sd-40-2... though if they ever get operating into bay ridge yard, who knows if they'll ferry some yard power every now and again... they're suppose to move in sometime in the next year from what the rumor mill says.
i'm just glad the years upon years of boring CR b23's every day are over. the more variety the better.
Has anyone had a chance to see this new book by Fred Kramer?
A softcover 84 pg book retailing for only $17.95, it has some great 1940's vintage pictures of New York's subway and el system.
There are some bad gaffs in the captions and text, but the fine B/W pictures make the price worthwhile. If you like pictures of the old equipment you'll love this book!
Yes, I have this book. I agree that the pictures the book has are excellent. What were some of the bad "gaffs" you saw?
--Mark
Mark, I haven't read the text yet because I have been so busy absorbing the pictures which bring back a lot of great memories. Some "gaffs" in the picture captions are...
Cover caption-The BMT would never run a train of BX's across the bridge, they wouldn't make the grade. It was more than likely a BX set and a B set.
pg35- 160th should read 168th.
pg39- did you ever see any train leave EP eastbound "zoom off"?
pg51- should read Crescent St station at Liberty Ave on the Fulton St line. The train was also more than likely id'ed as Fulton-Lex and not Lexington. Lexington trains ran either from BJ to EP or BJ to 111th.
pg52- Should read Oct 13th, not 14th. I know. I was there!
pg53- Lexington Ave trains never originated or terminated at Grand Ave. They always terminated or originated at BJ. This was merely the junction where the Lex joined the Myrt. Incidentally the platform on the Lex in the top left of the picture was id'ed as Myrtle. The platform in the foreground was id'ed as Grand. This was absolutely the most fascinating station to observe operations. The picture was obviously taken from the overpass walkway over the Myrt tracks which was a great place to watch the trains. I sure wish I had a camera in those days.
There are probably more, but I have been too busy scrutinizing the pictures and remembering. I will eventually get to serious reading of the text.
Here's a question for you. Can you make out the car # of the lead car in the picture at the bottom of pg33? The unique storm door gives it away as being a 900 series BU but my old eyes, even with a magnifying glass can not make out the number. Wouldn't it be funny if it was 902, a picture I have been looking for all these years.
Karl: Another gaff is to be found on p 34. The author refers to a picture of Fresh Pond Yard being filled with gate cars,Bluebirds and D units. A Triplex in Fresh Pond would have been a rare bird indeed.
What he identifies as D Types are actually Multis.
The author has another book entitled "Subway to the World's Fair" which also has many excellent pictures but again on p 19 he make two references to R-12's identifying them as World's Fair-Steinways.
Best Wishes, Larry Redbird R33
Larry, You're right, I completely missed it. I should have spotted that for sure. D types in Fresh Pond would be just as unusual as seeing them in East New York. They are Multi's and not D's!
It's funny, but all of the times that I gazed at Fresh Pond when passing, I never once saw the Bluebirds there. I must not have passed at the right time.
Errors aside, aren't they some of the nicest pictures you've ever seen?
The Triplexes certainly could have run out to Fresh Pond Yard; they wouldn't have had any problems negotiating the curves.
Fifty-one years ago tonight the Last Lex ran down Lexington Ave in Brooklyn.
Does anyone have a copy of the "termination of service" notice that was posted in the cars before the end?
I remember seeing the notice, and would like to get a photocopy of it!
Does anyone remember what numbers were used to identify the token booths along the B'klyn Lex?
Tokens weren't used for fares until three years after the Lexington Ave el shut down. The fare was only ten cents back then.
Are you asking for the names of the stations on Brooklyn's Lexington Ave?
Not the names of the stations. More of the change booths. Considering the booths on the Myrtle El were K6-Bridge-Jay to K22-Metropolitian. I figure on the Brooklyn-Lex there were under the L series.
I'm just speculating, but I doubt the booths were numbered that
way in 1950. That's a TA thing. It was still the BOT in 1950,
and they were more or less leaving the BMT alone still.
I can't believe that the time of my last message posting was 9:02.
902 just happens to have been the number of my favorite BU gate car. Over the years I have posted my desire to purchase a copy of a picture of this particular car without success.
I'm still looking, if anyone should ever turn up a picture of this car.
Someone in nyc.transit posted this link http://www.enr.com/news/enrtran_10801.asp
It much better than the newspapers have had.
Arti
Yes, it is better, if for no other reason than it's not sensationalized. The details of what the problems are with the N and R is more than I've seen as well, and they certainly support the belief that the N and R will be able to be restored by springtime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those of you who are having difficulty understanding the reluctance to help New York need to know something: virtually all states and localities had a budget crisis BEFORE September 11.
The economy WAS much stronger in New York area than in the rest of the country -- even upstate, where Buffalo, Syracuse and Utica are about to go bankrupt. So Giuliani and Pataki were able to cook the books -- and sell off the future -- to push our budget crisis off until after elections, or so they thought. Next year's budget will be a disaster here. THIS year's budget is a disaster in much of the country.
As I wrote to Senator Chuck, if the FEDs cut taxes (to look good) but state and local goverments are forced to cut services and increase taxes, the stimulus is offset. But shifting the problem onto someone else is a typical response for our self-serving pols.
New York is now hurt worse than average because of the disaster. And, New York had generally been cheated for years -- the state by the nation, the city by the state. But now that they have their own problems, they don't want to hear that.
As you may remember, I reported the brake regenerator light to be illuminated during the station stop at Grosvenor on Thursday. Yesterday morning, at about 7:30, I heard over the radio in the cab 1038 and 1039 had some sort of problem and were being taken out of service (as well as their whole train), causing delays on the Red Line. Sounded like they were around Metro Center.
Oren, excuse my ignorance, but which light is the brake regenerator light? Is that one of those bulbs on the linkage between the married cars?
Thanks,
Chris
They are the two lights (orange and blue) on the left side of the car as you face the blind end at the blind end of the car (did that make any sense???).
Yeah, I know what you're talking about now. Thanks. So when lit, they indicate a failure in the regen brakes system?
C
I think when the orange flashes, they are working.
Addendum: On an island platform, you will see them at the blind end of the 2nd, 4th, and 6th cars. On a wall platform, you will see them at the blind end of the 1st, 3rd, and 5th cars. Only the Rohr cars have them.
Aren't the Rohrs due for a GOH soon or have they already had one (GOH=General Overhaul)? After all they are about 25 years young. Hard to belive, how time flies.
wayne
I think they're going to start pulling cars out of service for GOHs as soon as the new CAF cars start arriving in force and alleviating some of the passenger crunch Metro has felt in recent months owing to increased ridership. The problem-plagued CAF units are just now entering service after many a manufacturing delay and will be phased in gradually.
The Rohrs aren't in as bad shape as one might think; they've been well maintained and updated/upgraded over the years, though perhaps not to the degree of a GOH.
C
The Breda 2000s are getting a GOH too. Once (If) enough cars come so they can leave.
1.What was the former name of the West End line?
2.What was the former name of the Culver line?
3.True or false:Prior to 9/11 te M ran on the West end line.Even though the J never ran to Brooklyn would that make the J a West End train?
4.From the 1890's,which subway line had the most terminals?
A-The 5
B-The Q(which includes the QJ,QB,QT and every other Q)
C-The C
5.If an average BMT tunnel can't hopld 75'ft trains,does that still make the Broaddway line(N,R,Q,W) a BMT line ?
I only have an answer to 1 question and a question on a question... (is this quiz?)
3. True that the M ran on West End and just because they share the same track, I don't think that means the J would be a West End train.
5. What do you mean by average tunnel? Aren't 75ft cars used on BMT? Why wouldn't it be BMT? Do you mean before platforms were extended?
1-West End-Brooklyn Baths and West End RR 2-Culver-Prospect Park and Coney Island RR Both always had the name or the name was part of the line.3- No the M once ran on the Brighton Line, and so did the J as the QJ The Q if I remember including theBMT Brighton Days had at least 8 terminals Brighton Beach, Coney island, Times Sq, 57-7th, 57-6th, Astoria, Queensboro Plaza, Forest Hills. Probably More, if you include the BRT days of el via Franklin and Fulton El then you can add Sands St,and across the Bridge(Brooklyn) to City Hall. The BRT/BMT built the Broadway line so it is a BMT Line
1.What was the former name of the West End line?
2.What was the former name of the Culver line?
3.True or false:Prior to 9/11 te M ran on the West end line.Even though the J never ran to Brooklyn would that make the J a West End train?
4.From the 1890's,which subway line had the most terminals?
A-The 5
B-The Q(which includes the QJ,QB,QT and every other Q)
C-The C
5.If an average BMT tunnel can't hopld 75'ft trains,does that still make the Broaddway line(N,R,Q,W) a BMT line ?
I will have answers next Saturday
Anyone know on what date the 7 line will start implementing the use of "new" cars? (R-62s!!)
after the R-14A's have worked out their problems. and when their is enough of them to take over the whole 6 line.
You mean R142s?
no. R-142A's run on the 6. they still give trouble. just not as serious as the R-142
What will the 5 get after te redbirds are retired
You had r14As.....5 will get same stuff.....r142a's that need fixin
no. R-142 6800 and up go to the 5 line after they are clear of recalls.
Looked in my book....how are they ever going to break into 6800 when recalls and mods are still being done tying up track space?
well, most of the the redbirds pushed over to the 5 line still have some life under their belt for i believe they were built in 1964? i'm not to sure but, if this is the case, then its nothing to worry about. ( though it is) i think bombardier made a bad choice of vendors.
LOL gotta run to Allentown...doity boids are easy to fix and will be kept running till they either cost too much to repair or necessary parts can't be salvaged anymore
The more that these problems exist with the R142 and R142As, the longer the R33 and R36 will be in service on the 7. I was hearing that by January 2002 that the 1st R62A set is supposed to be on the 7 but I assume that will be pushed off yet again.
#9664 7 Flushing Local
For all you railfans who need an excuse to ride the Oyster Bay Branch, Today and tomorrow is the Oyster Festival in Oyster Bay. The whole area around the station is one big fair. Since traffic and parking is bad in O.B. due to it the LIRR is putting on extra trains on the O.B. Branch. I'm taking my family there from Mineola. If I remember previous years an awful lot of people get on at Locust Valley and just go one stop.
For the schedule go to the MTA LIRR timetable site and go to the Oyster Bay BRANCH timetable (not the individual station timetables). There is a separate link for the schedule for the Oyster Festival weekend with the extra trains. Some of them are shuttles from Mineola though.
My wife and I tried to go to the festival one year, pre-kids. The local cops directed us 'round and 'round, and after about a half hour of that, we were directed straight out of town!
And I'm not going all the way to Jamaica from Babylon to get to O.B., so I guess I'll have to get my oysters at the local Fish 'n Clam.
BTW, for those who like a real, simple, fish restaurant where everything is fresh and priced not much above the fish market cost, try Southside Fish & Clam on Montauk Highway about 6 blocks west of Wellwood Ave. in Lindenhurst. There special is the "twin lobster" dinner. Nothing fancy, but TWO fresh steamed or broiled lobsters for what you'd pay for one of the same size at a lot of places. Soups are good too.
It's cafeteria style so, yes, you can share.
[And I'm not going all the way to Jamaica from Babylon to get to O.B]
In the "old days", you could have gone to Valley Stream and taken a West Hempstead train to Mineola to change to the OB Branch.
Paul, you really don't have to go from Babylon to Jamaica to go to Oyster Bay if you got a car. I parked at Mineola and it was a nice ride. Alot nicer than John from Sea Cliff describes it!! Most of the meters in Mineola exclude weekends so parking is free. However you must check the individual meter to make sure because not all exclude weekends. It seemed like an awful lot of people got on at Locust Manor Valley and went the one stop. Sure beats taking the shuttle school buses at the festival.
As far as the festival is concerned we just got home and it was very nice, sort of like a San Genero Feast in a rural setting. I really didn't go for any seafood. I got what I get at any fair/carnival; a sausage hero!! The festival seemed more family friendly this year instead of a drunk fest. There was a band playing in the playground by the marina and a couple of tall ships at the beach. And of course the train yard with the tri-levels.
Funny you should mention the lobster restaurant in Lindenhurst. About 3-4 yrs ago we went to a lobster restaurant in Lindenhurst with my motorcycle club. I'm not sure if it was Southside Fish & Clam or somewhere else. Anyway while we were eating a car crashed right through the wall into the restaurant. Luckily nobody was hit.
An observation on the Oyster Bay Branch. I noticed one of the scheduled trains was being pulled by a dual-mode. Since no Oyster Bay train goes to Penn on Saturday I was wondering why they were using it. It was definitely dual-mode as it was on the city bound end of the train and it had third rail shoes.
This is the Oyster festival that almost wasn't. Due to last year's Drunkfest, and political squabbling, it was earlier decided to skip it this year. But popular sentiment overrode. I decided to skip it this year. LIPA usually sells those screw-in fluorescent light bulbs very cheap (i.e. $3), which is worth the #3.50 round-trip from Mineola or East Williston.
I follow this http://www.antonnews.com/oysterbayenterprisepilot/
every week, an internet newsweekly. Sometimes they have proress on the 35 project. By next year, they should have their Mitchell Field rolling stock at Oyster Bay.
Yeah I've been to the Oyster Fest a few times, definately too many drunks for my taste. The beer should be banned. We had a similar situation here in Sea Cliff, but our "minimart" has limited alchohol use and thus things are more peaceful.
On an LIRR note, I've heard those drunks trash the trains. You don't wanna know how much litter and beer bottles there were.
That's a good suggestion, Sarge. If the wife and I ever hope to go to thefestival, that's the way to do it.
The lobster you described does sound like Southside. I seem to recall some car damage on it a while back. Coming from the City it's got a big parking lot on the right side, and then the restaurant is the rest of the block?
That piece of Montauk Highway is a mess. Thirty years ago the state wanted to make it six lanes with divider all the way from the Nassau line to Islip town, but the mayors of Amityville & Babylon had too much political clout to let it happen and I think the state has been taking its revenge on the highway ever since.
Do you think the MTA might extend the 5 (or 6!) to South Ferry?
Looking at Peter Dougherty's map the crossovers already exist from
the 5 loop to the 1-9 tracks. This might eliminate some of the
chaos that now reigns at Bowling Green.
Sorry if someone already asked this, but I've only just got my
web access back as I live close to the WTC!
In another thread there has been some discussion of this... IIRC it is a serious proposal at the present time. I don't remember which of the services it said was being proposed. It is NOT a sure thing however, simply a serious proposal that is being considered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Perhaps a few #5 trains might be diverted to South Ferry during the rush hours, with all 5's terminating at SF other times. But with the loss of the N & R in lower Manhattan, the loss of ANY IRT service to/from Brooklyn isn't really worth it. Once N & R service is restored, then it might be justifiable. The Greenwich St. subway will be lost for many years, and some service to South Ferry will be needed much sooner.
Until the late 1970's South Ferry was served by both the No 5 and No 6 trains at nights and on weekends. During the daytime period a two car train known as the Bowling Green Shuttle. This train operated from the short platform at Bowling Green to the inner loop at South Ferry. The only drawback is that the inner loop platfrom at South Ferry can only be reached by one narrow staircase.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Plus you'd have to modify any cars running to the inner loop so that only their center doors could open. I don't think the TA would contemplate doing that.
Trains from Bowling Green (either platform) can stop at the outer loop. Trains from the outer loop can reach Bowling Green. The only reason the inner loop was used for previous incarnations of this service was to avoid interfering with the 1, but that's not a concern right now.
Yes, that's correct. Specifically, by using the inner loop and reversing direction, the shuttle didn't interfere with traffic on any other line. Since there is currently no 7th Ave. service to South Ferry, then yes, any Lexington Ave. service could use the outer loop. If they were to resurrect the shuttle, it would still have to reverse direction in order to return to the shuttle platform.
Steve: Mr Greenburger makes a good point. There is presently no West Side service to South Ferry so an East Side train using the outer loop would not cause any problems. As for the inner loop I'm sure that a few of the R-33WF cars could be modified like the R-17 and R-12's were.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I hope the TA does consider running the 5 to South Ferry once they restore N/R service. It really might come in handy with the loss of the 1 line below Chambers.
All it takes is a set of r62/62a's and presto!
they can stop at South Ferry... IIRC the 5's roll
through the inner loop as a daytime turnaround point
so what difference does one simple trackswitch make??
(plus according to a certain T/O, redbirds TOO can
stop at the SF gap fillers)
The 5 at Bowling Green is closest.
The 6 needs 3 more stops to even GET to Bowling Grn.
What's the problem? The 5 should get the nod easy.
With a decision making process THIS SLOW... it's
easy to see why 2nd Avenue Stubway has been dormant
all this time.
allright !
With the crisis thats coming up when it comes to finances the MTA, city, and state are hitting hard times. So will the MTA raise fares? Or implement the Zone Fare System? Where traveling between sections cost different. Like cost of going between the Bronx and Downtown Manhattan would be different from Traveling between the bronx and Rockaway, Queens.
The Questions is..how it would implemented? How much to implement it, and how will it affect ridership?
It might be a good deal for those who travel inside one borough, but it might be costly for people going longer distances between Queens and Upper Manhattan.
So will the MTA implement the system In London?
Or Will the MTA raise the fair to $1.75 or even $2.00?
The way it is now, I don't think they could implement fare zoning unless they made it a requirement that you swipe your card when exiting the station (like in DC, for example). They could use tricks to achieve the same effect though, like if a person transfers from the subway to the bus, they know (or can assume) that the person must have travelled that distance on the subway, and can charge them the proper amount.
Of cource, one of the large fears when Metrocards were implemented was that the ability to put a fare zone system was one of the long-term goals of it. I just don't see it being possible unless they want to replace all those turnstiles with ones similar to those in Washington DC, and that would cost even more money.
a zone fare would require an exit swipe. An exit swipe would cause problems with backup trying to exit. An exit swipe would also cause problems with those not having enough money on their card-- remember the Kingston trio Song "MTA" about a Boston Man who was trapped on the Boston subway.
Of course, we'd also have a problem with fare beaters trying to beat the exit swipe.
"He will ride forever, 'neath the streets of Boston."
"He's the man who'll never return."
"Get Charlie off the MTA"
The way to solve those problems is to charge the maximum price entering the system them give a refund while leaving.
No one would wan't that to happen. Yeah, maybe the MTA will raise the fare, but not impose zones, imagine trying to exit Grand Central with a whole long line of people in front of you, swiping their card...or getting their refund.
No I think he means the refund would be automatic...like lets say the maximum fare is $5 (from say Coney Island to 241st Street). The turnstile takes out $5 when you enter the system and when you exit, it figures out how much your ride was, and if you only went to say Times Square (for this example it'll cost $2.50 to get from Coney Island to TS), it'll put $2.50 back on your card when you swipe out of the system there.
Of cource, this would totally screw people who use tokens, or people who only put $1.50 or $3.00 on their card at a time. But it's doable.
An exit swipe would be a disaster-- imagine the long lines trying to exit stations like Grand Central, Times Square, etc.
I use Jay Street IND once a week-the part-time end. There are two HEETs and there is always a line to either enter or exit. For this to work you'd need more turnstiles or use half to enetr and half to exit.
An exit swipe would cause problems --
customer:"my card did not get a refund."
S/A:"I'm sorry, you have to mail it in."
the response I'd get is unprintable.
WARNING: SUBJECTIVE POLITICAL OPINIONS BELOW
As someone who was recently an SF resident and Bart user, I feel the Fare Zone system should be avoided at all costs. Not only is it cumbersome and pain in the butt, it really would be a regressive tax if used in NYC. Additionally, it would prove a dis-incentive for use of public transportation in NYC.
If used here, those who would be paying the additional fare would almost certainly be those with the furthest commute; which in NYC, would generally be those that cannot afford to live close to the city. Those who could afford the hike are the ones that already live in the city, or within a stones throw. Those out where the fares are higher are primarily there because they need to be far enough away to be able to afford to live in the city. It is already a huge tax on their time, the fare zone system would merely compound this.
Secondly, the MTA essentially allows the businesses of the city to have a huge labor pool to pull from. The only way the service industry of the city can survive is if they can find people that will work for the lower, hourly wages they offer. In essence, this is a subsidy to these business owners. As such, I think some of this financial shortfall should be left at their door; not all of it, but, essentially, the MTA bears the cost of their access to cheap labor. This is ok, as the city needs these businesses too, but, it strikes me as fair that they should participate in absorbing some of these costs. They could likely pass some of this back to their patrons and not incur much wrath (I already pay a buck fo 50 cent cup of coffee. I wouldn't be shocked to see it go to $1.25. This is understood if you live here)
Thirdly, I cannot imagine that any real solution to the budget shortfall would be helped by further reduced MTA patronage at the ends of the line where the higher fares would most certainly be found. is there any doubt that this policy would cause some drop-off?
I am not merely saying "sock it to business owners", but, I think it is more than fair to cut some of the freebie they ae getting already as a component of the MTA service they depend on.
Also, people like me who just like surfing the subway for fun (a particular trip to 242 - VCP comes to mind) wouldn't want to surf the subway as much...
-some1
well, chances are they would be checking where you entered and left the system, not have conductors on board checking tickets, so you could ride every train in the system, and as long as you get off where you got on, you'd be charged the lowest fare possible.
Nice try. Unfortunately, most systems with zonal fares also impose a time limit . . . .
Xone and distance fares SUCK. Right up there with peak surcharge--which typicly screws the low wage worker required to punch in at a specfic time rather than the more affluent who can arrange 'flex time' New York had a zone fare system prior to the Metrocard--If you needed a bus to get to/from the subway you were in a two fare zone and the inequity of spending two tokens for those of us in those neighborhoods was not reflected in the rents. And as others have pointed out, the exit lines would be horrendous--only toy systems like BART can get away with this crap because not enough people use it to make the exit traffic jams unacceptable. (more people use Times Sq than ALL of BART by 200k/day)
Like I said earlier I'd rather see fares raised by 50 cents across the board. I am totally opposed to zone fares, for the reasons you and others mentioned. If zone fares were implemeted I think I'd probably go out and get a car, and so would alot of other people.
It is most important that NYC encourage the use of mass transit at a time like this. Any serious service cutbacks or changes in the way fares are collected will probably set NYC back big time. Metrocard has been a huge success, mainly for the uniform fare and unlimited cards. Take that way and that'll be one more nail in the coffin for NYC.
Not to mention using less oil from 'over there'. where they love our dollars hate us AND (deservedly)their own governments. We should tax the Stupid Useless Vehicles off the roads, build HSR, eliminate air travel on routes well served by HSR as it comes on line, and generally use less non-renewables.
Not that I want a zoning system in NYC, let me point that many systems
around the world have them and many of them don't have the exit
congestion problems as some speculate.
London. Paris and Tokyo all charge by distance and their systems are
definitely not "toy systems". Yet they still work.
The worst fare situation is Tokyo metropolitan area.
There are more than 15 different companies running subways and
commuter trains, and even if some of them offer through service
trains, there are no free transfers between any of them.
Discounts are rare but exist between some systems.
And of course, most of the lines charge by distance, with the
recently built ones having even higher fare to compensate the
cost of building them. But I should also point out that in Japan,
the employer usually pays for the employees' commute, whether you
are employed full-time or part-time. Freelancers usually have to
pay themselves.
true, but i don't think new yorkers are used to swiping their card when leaving...imagine that one exit at South Ferry Cramped with ppl trying to get in after the ferry and the people trying to get out before the ferry leaves ... of course, this is when South Ferer is finally reopened!
They may not be used to it, but when forced to deal with a new situation, New Yorkers can adjust. Look at the July 22 bridge changes: most of us were betting that everyone would be confused, and hopelessly lost ...and it happened for about a week. They coped with it so well that 1.5 months later when September 11 happened, they dealt with those changes easily also.
Metrocard is another example, and although it wasn't a forced change, it eventually became favored over tokens by by New Yorkers.
New Yorkers don't like change, especially if it means they may pay more, but if the MTA makes it so, we will cope.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a good idea, I just don't think that "it'll never work" is the reason why it hasn't happened yet.
London. Paris and Tokyo all charge by distance and their systems are
definitely not "toy systems". Yet they still work.
Just one correction...the basic Paris Metro does not charge by distance....The RER does but that is more akin to a commuter railroad rather than a subway
The metro stays mostly in zone 1 & 2. They used to charge extra if
the line went out to zone 3, but that practice has been discontinued.
If you compare the geographic size of the NYC or London system,
I thought it would be more appropriate to include the suburbs.
The city of Paris could be smaller than Manhattan.
Besides, both in London and Paris, the zoning system covers all
subways, buses and commuter railroads with the same ticketing.
So farewise, it could be considered as one system.
Just pointing out the obvious: We had two fare zones, with a higher fare for bus to subway transfers, and (at one time) a higher fare to the Rockaways. These were eliminated to popular acclaim, with no complaints from those living further in.
Actually, the MetroCard transfer policy is beneficial even to those in Manhattan ("those living further in"). It's often possible to go from point A to point B, run whatever errands need to be run, and return to point A on a single fare: subway there and bus back, or one bus line there and a different bus line back. Also, many source-destination pairs in Manhattan are best tackled by a combination of subway and bus, even if both points are on subway lines. (Think of crosstown lines north of 59th Street.)
Probably long ago covered on this board but has the 'Unlimited Ride' Metrocard increased revenue overall or intensified usage, compared to the previous system (one token/ prepayment debit per ride)? Any figures? Where on the web would such stats be?
Not to keep politicizing this, but, I think 9-11 makes clear that reducing US need for foreign oil is definiteluy in our interest. I do not think that it is too beyond the pale to try to see that some of the "recovery" money is directed towards finally making public transportation in the US a viable option (and also exploiting the fuel efficiencies of rail in general)
I personally believe it is time for us to finally make a serious effort make public transport a truly palatable alternative. This requires significant infrastructure spend, and, a level of service that creates demand (which good service can do)
This is all easy to simply say, but, we as subway fans can make an impact here. I do not wish to exploit 9-11 to push a pet project (public transport), but in my heart of hearts, I believe this is an option that benefits all in the long run when done right (and NYC, on balance, does it right) Am I being too pollyanna to suggest that we passive subway buffs energize a bit and try to (constructively) use what we know to try to make this case?
"Not to keep politicizing this, but, I think 9-11 makes clear that reducing US need for foreign oil is definiteluy in our interest."
Sometime before 9-11 President George W. Bush wanted drilling for oil in Alaska for that same reason. However, he recieved much grief from enviorMENTALists arguing against it. Now after the 9-11 catastrophe, did these left wing jackasses change their tune ? I think not.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not sure if "MENTAL" is meant for me, but, I would only say that dependence on oil in general is something that we would be wise to rethink, to the degree we can, without giving up our freedom of mobility.
the aversion to public transit in this country is only partly a rational one. yes, your mobility does become dependent on others; however, that is a paper tiger. most of the objection is cultural, learned, and not particularly substinative when you have a viable alterative.
I am merely saying that when public transit is done right, its' merit is self-evident. our current crisis brings to the fore some tangible benefits to trying to unlearn our aversion to mass transit. i am trying not to use 9-11 to push a pet issue, but, I genuinely believe we benefit as a society if we include "perfecting public transit" to our post 9-11 to do list.
(again, in the interest of full-disclosure, my father is a life-long railroad man, including a stint at running commuter operations in a top 5 US city. I have my biases. the rails put a roof over my head my whole life)
I think we're missing the point. The fragile situation in the mid-east may get worse where our oil dependency is concerned. If the wells were sabotaged, this would have an effect on us.
The point I was making was, that before 9-11 the President was trying to "ease us out" of the mid-east as far as our dependency on oil is concerned. But, the enviromentalists were bitching about the tundra and caribou. Now 9-11 has changed that. Our mid-east policy towards Israel is one thing. But out dependency on oil in that region is quite precarious. I say ease out of the mid-east and let the Saudi oil barons taste unemployment.
As far as doing mass transit right, this takes planning, money and time. We don't have time right now. Changing New York's as well as Americas habits will take time, not overnight. I just bought a new S-10 SUV. Why not, I worked hard for it. And when I go to the city, which is quite often, the car stays at the LIRR station and I take the train in. I don't dare go into Manhattan with traffic and parking nightmares, even before 9-11. I'd rather ride the train and read a newwspaper and relax. That's where I stand on this.
Bill "Newkirk"
But out dependency on oil in that region is quite precarious. I say ease out of the mid-east and let the Saudi oil barons taste unemployment.
Saudi Arabia already has more than 20% unemployment. Of course, the oil barons aren't affected, yet. Combine that high unemployment with a population that's increasing at just about the fastest rate of any country on Earth, and it's hard to escape the fact that Saudi Arabia is a powderkeg with a burning fuse. All the more reason why we don't want to be dependent on their oil.
Not to keep politicizing this, but, I think 9-11 makes clear that reducing US need for foreign oil is definiteluy in our interest. I do not think that it is too beyond the pale to try to see that some of the "recovery" money is directed towards finally making public transportation in the US a viable option (and also exploiting the fuel
efficiencies of rail in general)
Absolutely. One thing that's become increasingly clear is that Saudi Arabia, the world's biggest oil exporter, is definitely not America's friend. For all the American aid it gets, it has flatly denied any use of its air bases and other military facilities, and until very recently - and maybe still, covertly - it has provided financial assistance to Bin Laden's organization. These aren't the people upon whom we want to be dependent.
One word of caution is in order. Many people are now pointing to the terrorist attacks as being a reason why the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge should be opened to oil drilling. While that isn't necessarily a bad idea in some respects, the calls do show that conservation, and of course use of mass transit, is still an alien concept to many Americans.
The sad thing right now is the drilling/conservation battle is still seen as some sort of "zero sum" game, as if you can't both incrase mass transit usage and cut down on low-milage vehicles while drilling for more domestic oil supplies in Alaska at the same time.
The actions this past week in Washington show that a lot of people in Congress are still in their pre-9/11 mind-set when it comes to both energy producing and energy conservation issues. Going by the statements on Alaska National Wildlife Refuge drilling and on Amtrak funding, you'd assume to a lot of these senators and representatives, September 11th never happened.
Given the additional details coming out about Saudi Arabia's leaders basically paying protection money to Islamic terrorists to keep themselves in power and the de facto sympathy of some of those samne rulers to much of the terrorists' cause (the Saudis don't want to kill us -- Who'd buy their oil then? Botswana? -- but they do want to destroy Israel), continuing to both hold out against ANWR drilling (mainly opposed by Democrats) and increasing funding for mass transit in areas where the basic infrastructure is already in place (mainly opposed by Republicans) is incredibly short-sighted.
Nuke the swamis....vegetable oil for diesel
Someone pointed out that even if the U.S. was free from the need for imported oil, Europe and Japan, our allies, would not be.
I was in favor of the U.S. trying to comply with global warming treaties on moral/environmental grounds, but you can add geopolitcs to that. If through technology and lifestyle adaptation we can limit our fossil fuel use to that produced in North American (Canada, Mexico), and Europe can support itself from Russia and the North Sea, we'd all be better off.
>>> If through technology and lifestyle adaptation we can limit our fossil fuel use to that produced in North American <<<
Since the fossils are not producing the fuel as fast as we use it, it is not something that we can adapt to in the long term. When oil was first discovered it was just used to light lamps and lubrication to replace whale oil. In the past 100 years with the increase in technology and mobility, humans have depleted most of the total oil supplies in the world which took millions of years to form. Personally I think it is better to keep as many of our reserves as we can while using Middle East oil first, and obviously in the long term the world must reduce its dependence on fossil fuels.
Tom
The system is dumb in London and it would be dumb here. It costs an arm and a leg to implement...you have to have inspectors at each station and exiting the stations is slowed up. I can't conceive of the system in NY at a station like Times Square during rush hours....London would be much better served if they got rid of the system and implemented a flat fare.
Unfortunately for that idea, London's Zonal System also includes the privatised National Rail system: too much politics to make flat fare likely in the next century . . . .
I am looking for an original 1959 MTA nyc subway map. I have been combing flea markets and poster/memorabilia shops and have come up empty. Anyone have any ideas?
Did you try Ebay?
I have searched for subway maps and mta on ebay and have found nothing. At one point I hit someones site at ebay and they had a 1979 map, but nothing on the 59.
The first problem is that the MTA did not come into existance until 1968. The 1959 map would have been issued by the New York City Transit Authority. There was one offered about 2 weeks ago.
Make sure you have a good search going. Try "subway -poster" as your keyword.
also from the main ebay page click on Collectables, the scroll to Transportation, then select subway.
Good Luck
I've definitely seen some 1959 official TA maps on ebay every few months or so. I guess you'll just have to keep trying.
eBay auction #1019201305 is a 1959 NYCTA subway map.
Is it possible to bring back the N and have it run from Astoria to Canal Street so that the W can go back to the express track? There is a switch at Canal Street so that trains can turn back uptown. This shouldn't create any new inconveniences, since as of now people who go to lower Manhattan have to transfer at Canal St anyway.
Uh, if it's a question about lower and upper level of Canal Street, I don't think that matters much. The (W) and the (Q) run local as of now, go straight down the local track to Prince, where they punch for the bridge tracks. is the only thing serving the bway express line on the weekdays, and on weekends they don't have anything. Plus, the N would become a useless line...it would be a straight DUPLICATE of the W, from Astoria to Canal...Astoria riders can always change to the at 57th street for a good express ride.
If the N would be a useless line in this case, then before 9/11, the diamond Q was a useless line too.
No, before 9/11 the diamond Q was a useful line. It provided express service in Brooklyn...and now it's even more useful, providing express service in Manhattan (only line) and in Brooklyn! Think before you say!
What??? That's exactly my point about the N, and I'm not talking about the Q now. READ before you say.
ok...i'd rather not get involved, but it doesn't matter if it is the N or the Q!! the q is almost like the N, except for it skips Canal - Dekalb via the Montague street tunnel and takes Brighton instead of Sea Beach! There's really no big difference - in Manhattan at least...
The Q dont skip Dekalb & Canal and it goes over the Manhattan Bridge not the Montague street tunnel.
ok...rephrase...the q is exactly like the N up to Dekalb Ave, and is almost equivalent in the fact that if(!) the Q were routed through the Montague St. Tunnel, it would skip City Hall - Lawrence Ave(Bklyn)
Actually, I'm not saying that the diamond Q before 9/11 was a useless line. I was just using it as an example to show that N local and W express are useful in the same way.
My whole point in bringing this up was to find a way for the W to go back to the express track by having the N terminate at Canal st.
I've said it before, but I'll repeat it for the benefit of those (like, I think, "Ay233") who have come to this discussion late:
Operationally, NYCT could resume Broadway BMT operations at any time. However, the "powers that be" are not permitting NYCT access to the Broadway BMT below Canal Street. This includes City Hall (both levels). If and when permission is given, NYCT can resume service between Astoria and Canal Street. In fact, if and when permission is given, NYCT can resume full N/R service (bypassing Cortlandt Street, of course, since "Ground Zero" is right above).
David
Who are the "powers that be", NYCDOT?
A number of government agencies are working in the area, whether on security matters or debris removal or otherwise, and do not want NYCT to operate the Broadway Line through the area until some or all of the work is completed. Any further questions as to "who" or "why" should be directed to the Office of the Mayor.
David
That would be nice. Then my Sea Beach will be more like the train it is supposed to be, sans not getting on the bridge. Maybe they can bypass the Montague Tunnel and get it on the Manny B after all. Train Dude told be about April. Does sit have to be that long?
The Diamond Q is a Express in Manhatten and Brooklyn. The Brighton Always had week day exp service on the Brighton Line, so it is not useless
anyway i saw 6451-6460 there also 6431-6440 and others
saw 6341-6350 again today
r142man
[2] Seventh A venue Express
6341-6350 was out on the road today, I rode on it.
i rode it yesterday.if you notice in 6341 it looks like it had construction paper on artwork section
was not he the one who made the most fun out of me saying i couldnt post pictures inside the message board here on subtalk ??...lol!!
OINK!! OINK !!!........lol!!
Great Picture of Flower and 12th St(I think it is 12th)
thats right !!
main stret #7
Nice picture.
It is strange -"Pig" hasn't posted since Tuesday. Must be on vacation - maybe "Sty"vestant Town!
Rim shot!
Where is the vision for something like this for NY? This is what some of the outer boro's need if heavy rail is to expensive. Staten Island,Brooklyn,parts of Queens, the LRT'S could serve as extentions from terminals [179 st,MAIN ST, JAMAICA CENTER,UTICA AVE, EAST NEW YORK[Eastern Pky Bway Junction] and so on ... The Utica ave Subway, Nostrand ave Subways,... all could be LRTs .......
Great shot, Salaam
thank you sir !
los angeles redline "subway to nowhere" our R-142 type cars ( make that same buzzing sound too ) !!!
damn ! ........forgot to trun off the date stamp .............!!!!
...forgot to trun off the date stamp ...
For that they invented Photoshop :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yep howevr it provd to be the rignt thing when i shot angels flight
Wow, that was a great shot. I wonder what Pig is going to say about this when he get back.
ok, not bad...but whose "pig" is that his handle or something??!!
I'm refering "American Pig"
I will have the last laugh on him !! the nerve of him to say i could not learn to post pictures on subtalk !!
like this on below an art work from a 35mm scan of the shut down los angles short rail Angels Flignt fall 2000 !!
ENJOY !!
ANY OPINIONS ON THIS ?? ..........lol !!
Salaam,
What is going on with Angels Flignt now is it open or closed?
I was in LA a few months ago and went to see it....I asked around too and was told it had been closed for a few years now.
Angels Flight has been shut down since February of this year when an accident killed one man and injured several others. Periodically an ad appears in Downtown News stating that it is slated to re-open sometime "next year". The drive mechanism needs to be redesigned and rebuilt to make it once again a true funicular, where one car balances the other. I work in the vicinity and have seen no evidence of any work being done.
I last rode Angels Flight on the morning of the accident and retain my multi-ride ticket book with one ride remaining.
I was there a few weeks ago...there is no sign of the cars, the cable, or any construction.
I was about to head into LA to ride the contraption when I read that it broke down. Bad timing. I never rode the old one which was discontinued in 1963. But I just heard the other day that there was once another subway in LA. It was supposed to run from Hollywood to Los Angeles, about a mile and a half. I thought the guy was putting me on. I never heard of such a rail system. Maybe someone knows something about it. It sounds like a canard to me.
Are you talking about the L.A. redline where millons of dollars of taxpayer money were spent so that the hollywood studies can have a real subway to film in.
the la red line is a waste of money...cough cough airtrain, cough cough.
wrong. once they opened the new part over a year ago daily usage doubled. the ridership is greater than both Cleveland systems.
WAS ALMOST 0 BACK IN IN 2000 .........lol!!
and that platform seems full of people.
okay, let's assume MTA are liars, let's assume LATimes stories about the Red Line are lies. Indeed when I sampled a small part in 1999 there were many riders ! 3:334 PM on a Friday. When I go back in June 2002 (friend gets her MD ! UCLA I cheer), I will report back what I see w/ my lousy eyesight
>>> okay, let's assume MTA are liars, let's assume LATimes stories about the Red Line are lies. Indeed when I sampled a small part in 1999 there were many riders <<<
I often ride the downtown portion of the Red Line between Union Station and 7th Street during rush hours. The most crowded I have seen it is with a few people standing. The Blue Line is much more crowded, sometimes having crush loads.
Tom
NO!!!! I am not. I'm talking about the 30's or 40's when there was supposed to be a train that ran underground from Hollywood to Los Angeles. I don't know if there were any stops in between or whether it was a one stop run, but supposedly it existed. It sounded like a pile a garbage to me, but, then again, who knows?
There is a subway tunnel somewhere in LA which was never put to use. Harry Reasoner did a news report once while standing in it.
>>> There is a subway tunnel somewhere in LA which was never put to use <<<
Are you sure that report was not about the abandoned tunnel mentioned in other threads? Or that report may have been before the latest extension of the Red Line. There was also supposed to be an extension of the Red Line into East Los Angeles, but no work on the tunnel was ever started. AFIK there are no never used subway tunnels in Los Angeles.
Tom
I think Fred is referring to the PE Subway, which did carry PE cars from Hollywood (among others) to an underground station at the PE Terminal at 6th & Main.
After the abandonemnts of the Hollywood/Northern lines the PE PCC's were stored in the subway before being sold to the FGGU in Argentina. They suffered deterioration in the tunnel that shortened their life in Argentina.
Dan: Thanks! That is what I was referring to. Someone mentioned this to me and I thought they were nuts. Today I talked to some old timer and he told me the while picture. I am surprised I never knew this before. Well, as they say, better late than never.
The old Terminal at 6th andf Main was not the Subway Terminal. That was both elevatored and ground level.
>>> I think Fred is referring to the PE Subway, which did carry PE cars from Hollywood (among others) to an underground station at the PE Terminal at 6th & Main. <<<
Dan;
Unless you can point me to some documentation, I think you are mistaken about a subway at the PE Building. Main Street at the front of the building is at a higher elevation than Los Angeles Street at the rear of the building. There was an elevated track crossing over Los Angeles Street and entering the building at the rear, and an automobile parking entrance under the track. There were also tracks leaving the building on main street at street level. When I first came to Los Angeles in 1957 the building was being used by Greyhound and they had the buses entering through the elevated crossing and out the front of the building. I have been in and around the PE building since 1963 and have never heard of any subway station there.
Here is an interesting site about the PE. Be sure to read the part about the Main Street Station.
Tom
what mta bus runs there ???? so i can take a picture of it ???
>>> what mta bus runs there ???? so i can take a picture of it ??? <<<
Assuming you mean the PE Building, there is not much to see. The elevated structure is long gone, and the area behind the building became the Greyhound Bus Depot till the Dog fell on hard times. Now it is a big "swap meet" building. The waiting room and area where the trains and buses ran through the PE building was converted to a parking lot back in the ‘60s when Greyhound moved out. Just about any MTA bus that runs down Spring Street, Main Street or 6th Street in the downtown area will get you there.
Tom
The Pacific Electric Building at 6th and Main is still an impressive structure, even though little evidence of its original railway purpose survives. However, you might be interested in Cole's PE Buffet (restaurant) on the 6th Street side, which contains much interesting PE memorabilia.
well my response to that is ...
!!!!
Tom, the Subway terminal Bldg is on Olive not Main, the Tunnel is off of Temple and Beaudry, and bus west on Temple or Sunset should get you there
Sorry about the mixup, I knew about the Subway Terminal Building.
When your mind is cluttered with all sorts of streetcar facts, sometimes the file system above the eyebrows gets mixed up.
HERE IT WAS !!!..............
There used to be a old PE Line that ran under Bunker Hill at 5th and Hill, and came out around Temple and Glendale Vlvd. The PE lines to Hollywood, Burbank the Valley and the Santa Monica used to use it. If anyone remembers the Movie McArthur with Gregory Peck in it, the scene of him in Corrigidor, THE TUNNEL
that was the entrance to the old PE Tunnel. If youdrive along Temple St near Beaudry or Glendale Blvd, just West of Downtown you can see it. BTW the Subway Terminal Bldg still exists on Hill just North of 5th on the West Side of the street. The Terminal is now a car lotg)what else is new) Also in Roger Rabbit they have a scene of the old Subway Terminal. Sexiest cartoon Character. JESSICA RABBIT
Fred.....There was once a mile long subway that ran from a 6-track station at Main St. in downtown LA feeding into the Hollywood corrider with service to Hollywood, Glendale-Burbank, Santa Monica and the San Fernando Valley. It was built in 1925 by the Pacific Electric and abandoned in June, 1955. This is not a joke. I believe parts of the tunnel are still very much intact.
Carl M.
I'd like to get some info on that. I wonder why it was junked when 1955 was the start of traffic jams in Los Angeles (also my first full year out here) I also wonder why that tunnel is not used today for something. Wierd.
Kinda simple, Fred - the Highway/Auto lobby. Plus the ownership of PE's remaining rail service in 1955 was Metropolitan Coach Lines, and NCL controlled bus company.
I have heard Leonard Firestone of rubber fame was in league with the oil companies and steel companies to put everyone in a car. That might have been also a reason for the Red Cars' demise. It wouldn't suprise me at all, the rotten greedy bastards.
thats right agree with you 100% !!!
It was Judge Dread, go rent who framed Roger Rabbit
>>> But I just heard the other day that there was once another subway in LA. It was supposed to run from Hollywood to Los Angeles, about a mile and a half. I thought the guy was putting me on. I never heard of such a rail system. <<<
And you have lived in the Los Angeles area for how long? And you call yourself a railfan? How can you possibly not know about the Subway building on Hill Street between 4th and 5th Street, with the tunnel under Bunker Hill which emerged at Glendale Boulevard and 2nd Street?
The tunnel and terminal were used for both PE red cars and LARy trolleys going to Hollywood, Glendale, and probably Arcadia. Check this site for more information.
Tom
Well sorry for being so stupid Tom, please pardon me. I am a rail fan but I never said I was a rail fan of Los Angeles or any other place than New York. I made that clear two years ago. Pay attention please. Now I have heard of the Subway building on Hill Street, but not of the tunnel. And I wonder if the tunnel portal is still visible on Glendale Blvd and 2nd Street. Can you tell me that? And I will check out the site you gave me for more info. Thanks.
>>> And I wonder if the tunnel portal is still visible on Glendale Blvd and 2nd Street. <<<
Yes, the portal is still visible and it is possible to enter it, although there really is not much to see. The tunnel portal area was cleaned up when it appeared prominently in the beginning of the 1977 Gregory Peck movie "MacArthur" standing in for the main tunnel on Corregedor. Huel Howser on KCET has also done a half hour TV exploration of the tunnel from the basement of the Subway Building in his "that's amazing" style, including the traffic tower which is there (Video #228 in the Visiting series).
Tom
The LA Transit(Railway) never used the Subway Terminal at 5th and Hill it was always PE Lines
Thanks Old Tom. That was a hell of a rush. I wonder if there are enough of us who live in California to get together and make an exploration into the tunnel, maybe as part of a railfan day of riding the Red and Blue lines. Just a thought, but my curiousity has been aroused.
>>> What is going on with Angels Flignt now is it open or closed? <<<
It is still closed. The investigation of the fatal accident on 2/1/01 uncovered the fact that safety engineers had disapproved the design, and quit rather than signing off on it, but the people pushing for reopening back in 1996 ignored their concerns and went ahead with their cheaper design.
There is going to be big liability flowing from that accident, and some redesign of the system with careful oversight by safety engineers to prevent a reoccurrence. For this reason, and the reluctance of contributors to put new money at risk, it is taking longer to get Angels Flight running again than if it were a simple accident.
Tom
he can only say one thing ....................""OINK""...............lol!!
how do you post pictures anyway?????!!!!
ok i learned it this way ..
get a free photos on your e mail set it up load your pics there then click on your photos copy it on your url etc..
then post on subtalk
< img src =your photo starts with an http....... ends with jpg... >
be sure to end the jpg with a jpg >
put the < right next to the img & at the end the > at the end of the jpg ...
if i did it here it would diaaspear
I like your picture of the Red Line at rush hour. :-)
Tom
Somewhat different from NYC's "red" line at rush hour, I would say.
Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe he got tired of disagreeing with everybody's posts.
#3 West End Jeff
.......lol !! ...........or is it "Oinking" out loud ??.........or did he -----------pig out ""
REDBIRDS !! REDBIRDS !!!
he got tired of defending his new junker ................the r-142 !!! ...................................lol !!!
HOW BOUT THIS ONE SOUTH FERRY ??
Maybe "Pig" should ride on the IRT Low-Vs. I wonder if he'll complain about those cars. Experience with him has demonstrated that he'll disagree with anything and everything. I wonder if "Pig" dislikes the BMT "Standards" and "Triplexs" also.
#3 West End Jeff
put the "OINKER" on on of these .........clean up the "sty" ............afterwards !!! ............lol !!!
"Pig" certainly is an "OINKER"!! I think that we should put him on a "PCC" trolley car to see if he'll find something to object about it. I also wish to mention that I was born with a physical defect which "Pig" would love to make fun of. I was born with a minor form of cleft palate. Don't worry my speech is almost unaffected by it. What happened was the bones that make up my hard palate never merged and the skin which makes up the mucous membrane covered over the cleft hard palate which only shows up as a lineal depression at the midline of the palate. Although I'm in some discomfort as a result of having a minor cleft palate I'm otherwise doing well. If "OINKER" doesn't like that it is too bad since I'll always be that way and there isn't a thing that he can do about it. Maybe we should get "Pig" a cat that can't "MEOW"
#3 West End Jeff
Yes ! ""meow mix"" .........below is what happened to him ......Amtrak... at UNION STATION .....in los angeles !
OINK ! OINK !!!! OINK !! OINK !!! OINK !! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lol!!!
I think someone had kidnapped pig and roasted him Chinatown. It's been week I haven't seen him posting something.
I'm concerned that he maybe already eatened!
I checked two other posts and it is feared that "Pig" was roasted somewhere in Chinatown. I don't know if it is true but, in this world I wouldn't be surprised. I know for sure he would taste like a "pig" but, one never knows.
#3 West End Jeff
Even though "pig" may have been roasted somewhere in chinatown. But we couldn't be sure if its really him and his lifeless body (cooked into crisp) that were being display at the window in local chinese restaurant (big wong, wing wong, or other restaurant that sell roast "pig"). If u asked everyone in chinatown, they will say "yes,.. I had roast pig with rice for lunch and dinner".
.......It was GREAT while it lasted ........glad i shot a lot of photos of it when it was still operational..!!!!!!
anyone ever wonder why the TA isn't and hasn't built a free transfer between Junius and Livonia Aves?? Is it just to make people pay extra, or otherwise??
From what I remember, the stations are 3 blocks away and it's in the middle of nowhere, Brooklyn. If it were midtown manhattan, they might make the connection, but I don't think the people that live in that area, or the people that would use that connection have enough influence in the decision-making process.
As I recall there was a passageway between the two (Livonia-LL & Junius-2) until about 1983. It was removed when the Linden Yard connection was constructed.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Ever been to that area of Brooklyn? The few times I've passed thru there it reminds me of Berlin after WWII. A bombed out waste area. Also the area is very popular for muggers and robbers. Several times a day people get robbed there. And while it might be a good idea to have more TA police there; Julius St is in District 30 and Livonia Ave is in Disttict 33. 2 different radio zones. A person can rob someone ar one station, run accross the bridge and calmly walk past a cop on post at the other station and leave before the cop would hear on their radio about what went down at the other station.
The place is more alone than the Howard Beach station during the airport closing. I took my new pacific bike there and I thought that I will get jumped.
The current 8 minute headways are insufficient for service either north or south of Broad St. I don't care about all the calls for "balanced" J/M service through Dekalb Ave. There must be at least 10 TPH on the J line. I know the cars exist to run this much service. J trains are completely jammed in the AM well before getting to Essex St. The suspension of express service between Myrtle & Marcy only compounds the problem.
What's it gonna take to get service up to acceptable levels?
I'm not sure what the problem is, but I'll certainly agree that there is one. From the Bay Ridge area point of view, trains are filling up much faster than before the R/J switch.
It is very easy. Put 4 idle R46's sets on the Q and put 5 R32 sets on the Z north of Broad. The TA is too stubborn.
I'm sure this has been posted and answered many times before, and is probably common knowledge among Subtalkers, but would you mind if I ask again?!?
R110A is out of service forever (it may even be scrapped already), R110B still has a 6-car train that may still be in use on the C once a day (I don't know for sure), and the other three R110B cars are scrapped for parts. -Nick
As has been posted here by folks who should know (as in they work in the yard where the 110B is stored) the three cannibalized cars have been rebuilt and the entire trainset is ready, or nearly so, for service. Given the current equipment situation, however, they aren't needed, so I wouldn't expect to see them running.
As to the 110A, it is stored, plans unknown.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a picture of three of the R-110Bs that I took at the 207 St. Yard on our tour there on September 7, 2001.
"R110A is out of service forever (it may even be scrapped already)"
WRONG! The R-110As are in mothballs at Pitkin yard. It is not known if they are out of service forever. All attention is focused on the R-142/142A contract. Then the TA will decide what to do with them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
Thank you for correcting me. I guess we will wait and see what happens with the real products (R142 and R143) before deciding on the prototypes fate! -Nick
I think the MTA should put up signs like they have at Union Turnpike. At Union Turnpike, they still have the sign that says
to 179th street F /G either train.
Also E's will leave 179 in Rush hour. Any of them returning to 179? Also, Express service is a must!!!
The question should be - Will they publicize it at all?
I haven't seen anything (except for here) about the #3s leaving from
E 180th so they probably won't say a word about E's from 179th.
Will they need to? Maybe they will run light to Union Turnpike and drop out there.
Just wondering if anyone has confirmation to rumors of the R143 30-day test beginning either this Monday, or on 9/28. -Nick
Okay, thanks, but...
I think it's October now...NOT September. PLEASE tell me that was a typo...
If you're going to give out info, at least make sure you type it right the first time, or else people are either going to get the wrong information or see the typo and assumne certain things that may or may not be true...I seriously thought (IDK WHY???) that it was a joke, or at least I found it very funny...you don't want to do that again...lol
Yes, I knew you meant to say 10/15 or 10/28, but (LOL) just try not to let that happen again (not making too much of a big deal about it or complaining about it...) (lol)
Cleanairbus (lol)
I sure hope we don't have to live through september again...
Well I was at Piken Yard today and looked at all the tracks and the R143's were NOT there. So eather they were out on some training run or went back to ENY.
Robert
The R-143s are currently (spotted by me working the W line last Saturday) in Coney Island Yard , and recently their testing was done on Sea Beach Line (now M line) on E4 track.
I shot the 8-car set on the Sea Beach about 3 weeks ago. At first it was signed "L" on the end led diplays. When I took my camera out, the shut the thing down. When they restarted testing it was a blank reading. Phooey. But at least I shot it. That was at 20th Avenue stn.
Joe C
well, if you posted this reminder u r kinda making a big deal about it, but no problem, I will be more careful in the future. -Nick
i hope they do good in revenue. rumor i heard was that their bogies weren't of a sturdy design. could cause problems down the road but, they could be just rumors.
Must be the 28th. Called the dispatcher today and asked if it was running, and he said the end of the month.
Around the same time, we should be seeing the 110B's on the C again. Saw it moving around 207th yard today, and asked the T/O what was going on with it. He said it wa being prepared to reenter service in 2 weeks.
While going through the car wash, I passed the barge loaded with a bunch of redbirds. It looks like they're leaving in the stainless steel poles. Why don't they strip those and have them recycled?
Too much trouble to remove siezed in poles....fishes need them. Peter
I was waiting for the R-143 for 2 hours and nothing. Now I heard that they will maybe run within the next few days or in two weeks. But I can't wait for the R-143 to debut
What line will the R-143 run? Any Ideas?
The L line
Peace,
ANDEE
Not that we've haven't gone through this subject how many times?
hehehe
with the spares on the (M) Line
T.
what about the J?
The J will be the last to get the cars. These cars are primary for the L Canarsie Line.
L Canarsie line is supposed to have CBTC...last stop in Manhattan is Signal Maintainers School. Peter
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Two weeks ago I went to Smith-9th Streets station to take photos on the lower Manhattan skyline. The weather was cloudy as if Heaven felt sorrow about New York.
I scanned one of them into my site. I also have a similar photo taken four years ago. You can compare two of them.
Photo taken on 12/31/97
Photo taken on 9/30/01
I am not used to scanning photos with a new software (Adobe Photoshop). The second photo's quality may not be as good as the first one.
Chaohwa
On the second photo, was that American flag attached to the structure ?
That's kinda high up for a flag pole.
Bill "Newkirk"
it looks like it's off the roof of some other structure...
Yes indeed. The American flag was situated alongside the elevated structure.
Chaohwa
The Stars and Stripes fly from a mast located on the property of the Transit Cement Mix Factory (no relation to the TA) on Smith Street.
Today and tru-out the weekend there are trains to Far Rockaway. Shuttle buses replace trains betweem Rockaway Blvd. and Beach 98th street. So does whats going on? New tracks and a new test track have been installed in the spring 2001. What is left new signals? Why doesn't the MTA say what kind of a project is going on? Also I think the concrete viaducts the Rockaways need to be replaced. I see erosion everywhere. Sort of like the Flushing Line Viaduct of the late 80's.
I don't know for sure, but I do have a recommendation for you and others who would like to know "what is going on." The New York Division of the ERA publishes a monthly newsletter, "The Bulletin." In it, there is a regular column that lists all scheduled projects, where they are happening, what lines will be effected and when, and WHY. Just another great reason to belong...
Here's where to find them.
My friend who is a Signal Mantaner told me that they have to put the final tuches on the new signal sisyem. The way it is now is only tempary, they are now wiring the new relay stations out and removing the old ones that were just moved over to make way for the new track.
Robert
Go figure. Why don't they just have busses straight to midtown all of the time? It would take less time from 116 st. The A takes forever!
So how is this shuttle system working? Is there a shuttle going back and forth between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park... and passengers going to or from the rest of the system transfer to a bus at Beach 98 St. and get back on the subway at Rockaway Boulevard in Ozone Park?
This reminds me of the old "Round Robin" system overnight when a single A train covered both the Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway branches before the "H" (now the "S") became a 24/7 operation.
Craig
)
no, its a LOT of busses from jamaica depot
You guessed it. If you want a ride across Hammell's Wye (in either direction), now's your chance.
FYI, the original plan had called for a total subway shutdown on the Peninsula, with a third shuttle bus from Rock Pk transferring customers to the bus at 90TH St., for the trip either toward Far Rock, or the mainland.
They were tearing up the station canopies again today - I assume in preparation for the Airtrain connection.
I heard that a new overpass is going up along side the old one. Maybe they are doing the concrete foundation for it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
My understanding is that the Jamaica Station will be completely rebuilt in stages. The installation of HP Sodium lamps on poles into the platforms would indicate that the canopies are ready to be removed & replaced. This was delayed when Air train forced a re-design of the overall project.
I just want to see if the "new" Jamaica Station looks anything like the "delusion a granduer" the Port Authority drew on paper. We'll be lucky if it is built properly enough to look as it did before all the construction. Time will tell I guess!!
That's a real shame. We still don't do a very good job at historic preservation.
That's a real shame. We still don't do a very good job at historic preservation.
While beauty is of course in the eye of the beholder, I doubt if many people would find Jamaica station attractive or historic. "Ugly" is more like it.
how do i get in there!
Someone should have read the rules your going to get flamed for this...
is that referring to me, and why is entering the system going to get someone flamed?
Only if he makes the impression the room is closed will he really have to worry about flammage...
Point your browser to www.subtalklive.com. If you have further trouble, e-mail me.
I'm travelling and am borrowing a system to connect to the internet. I tried to click on the Subtalk Live link, but I must have a brain dead browser because not much happens when I do that. This system does have an IRC client. How do I connect from IRC to the chat?
just type www.subtalklive.com
Doesn't work. It presents the chat frames, but it doesn't connect to the server apparently. How do I access it directly from an IRC client?
If it matters, I'm on a Linux system with KSirc.
I have absolutely no idea.
It should ask you if you want to download one...
Why does the TA not run shuttles from 148 to 135 during late nights? or diverge 2 trains there??
Cost savings. A single shuttle bus covers the 3 line uptown.
What about the Bx customers? How would they get home?
If anyone recalls, directly below the tunnels for the 63rd Street line lies another set of tunnels, set for bringing the LIRR into Grand Central. This tunnel can be used to build a line to Laguardia Airport. Think of it, since tunneling technology has gotten much better, a tunnel line for the LIRR can be built enabling the LIRR to go to LaGuardia. Starting from the proposed location for the portal for this new tunnel (which if built will be somewhere between signal bridge 32 in Woodside and the Sunnyside Amtrak Yard) a line can be built where it diverges from the LIRR Grand Central cut (there which also a connection can be made so trains from G.C.T. can go on to the airport) travel under the E, F tunnels under Northern Blvd, turn north by northeast-ward under the B.Q.E., then turn east, under the G.C.P. service road and travel directly to LaGuardia Airport's Central Terminal facility. Service (if considered, then built, but knowing the MTA.....) can be half hourly from Jamaica, and a half hourly service from G.C.T. And if the "bright minds" higher up in the MTA would think even more, a tunnel connecting Penn to GCT can be built, enabling an airport service to LaGuardia to be run from Penn, also half hourly (each train to each terminal can run 5 or 10 minutes apart from eachother, i.e. Penn Station from LGA departing at 5:10, GCT at 5:20, Jamaica at 5:30, Penn again at 5:40, GCT 5:50, Jamaica at 6:00, etc.)
(Think of it, since tunneling technology has gotten much better, a tunnel line for the LIRR can be built enabling the LIRR to go to LaGuardia.)
Given how low the costs of tunnels have become in some people's view, I suggest that you and your friends raise capital, and offer to build and operate the service as a private operation. We'll let you go into GCT for free, you do the rest.
Golly. If the people at the Port Authority had known it was so cheap to tunnel, they would have gone ahead with the original plan and brought your AirTrain right into Manhattan. I suggest you write them as soon as possible and let them know that tunneling costs have come down from the previous $1 billion per mile.
MATT-2AV
Golly. If the people at the Port Authority had known it was so cheap to tunnel, they would have gone ahead with the original plan and brought your AirTrain right into Manhattan. I suggest you write them as soon as possible and let them know that tunneling costs have come down from the previous $1 billion per mile.
Actually that is quite cheap compared to the PA's original plan. The Queensboro Bridge can't hold the weight. Now what do you estimate the cost of replacing the Queensboro would be? The FHA is has spent over $500 million in an effort to avoid finding out. :-)
Today, I took advantage of WMATA's free rides to do some railfanning and make an attempt at getting my own recordings of the sounds of the subway on tape and on the Internet. I figured since I didn't have much film (I only took about 5 or 10 pictures all day) and since I didn't really want to go around taking photos on the Metro and have people bothering me about it, I would do my recordings today. I only had 60 minutes worth of tape, which turned out to be just enough.
Started out on board 1207 at Friendship Heights. Since it came in as I was rushing down the platform, I started my tape between Friendship and Tenley. It ran until the train left Union Station, where I got off. I recorded its takeoff from the platform. This part of the tape came out to be the worse since I didn't hold the microphone very steady.
Exited, came back, and waited about 5 minutes for the next train. It was to Silver Spring and I got on. It was 4 cars long and quite crowded. Turned out, this train was about 3 minutes late and had 2 other trains on its tail. Actually, all the short turns on the Red Line were 4 cars. I hope they put out 6 on those trains tomorrow. They could use it. This part of the taping was a bit better. I knew some "tricks of the trade" but since it was free rides, many families were on board and this led to much noise. The car was Rohr 1245. The tape reached the end of the side just as we entered Fort Totten and I didn't realize unitl about 1/3 of the way to Takoma.
At Silver Spring, the next train, led by Breda 4064, came in. Its first car was locked so its doors didn't open. Since I wasn't going to accept riding in the 2nd car, I decided to grab the J2 schedule and wait for the next train to Glenmont. This was Breda 3231. This was the first Breda train I recorded. It didn't come out as well since there were the families. Turned off the recorder as the doors opened at Glenmont. The trip to Glenmont completed my tour of every single bit of trackage on the system. I had been through all the stations but not on every single track.
Went upstairs to observe, then came back down and got on Rohr 1299, the last of the 300 Rohr cars to be delievered. I didn't take any pictures though. Recorded as the train came in and from the time we left Glenmont to Silver Spring, where I got off. From there, it was all buses, please refer to my BusTalk post for more details.
Sounds to soon be uploaded to my website, www.orenstransitpage.com.
I'm surprised someone didn't mistake your for a terrorist planning some sort of sound triggered attack. :)
I was wearing the blue shirt the maintenance workers wear. I think people assumed I was Metro staff, including the real staff as well.
TrainMan2001 is now A Train R44 #5342. Here are updates:
SD40-2s are 16 cylinder 3000HP 645E engines. Conrail/CSXT freight at Fresh Pond is now Y-101 changed from YAOP-33, and CP Rail train 274 brings the R-142s from Plattsburgh (Bombardier) at or about 4AM 9274's sched. arrival time)
Last Saturday I took a ride downtown from the Bronx on the #2 train, my downtown train was an r142. The train rode fantastic, but the inside of the car looked like it was shot to hell. The walls were dirty, I mean you saw dirt stains on the walls, no problem. The pa system worked fine, might point is this car looked as though it had really been abused, floors and everything was a mess. When I was returning back uptown I caught a redbird, I'm surprised this train was even running. The walls along with the floors were a mess, the doors which are painted in a redish color had paint missing. Every time the train would take off it would jerk real hard. My point! every body is complaining about how bad the r142s are and how bad the redbirds are. These cars are really taking some real abuse, no wonder there having so much trouble with them.
I have noticed that usually the doors of the R142s seem to be messy with footprints and other stuff. Hopefully your R142 situation was not common, and all the car needs is a more regular cleaning. As for the redbirds, they are rotting...so not a lot will be done to them. -Nick
R-142's with grimey dirty interiors and exteriors are common starting from two weeks to a month. at the end of each month, a few are called out for cleaning.
That's good. I don't want any mindless and senseless people messing up those new cars that NYCT has bought for them!
Unless if it is mud from rain, I think passengers by common sense should wipe their shoes someplace before entering the train.
A phrase to those wishing to diminish the quality of the R142(A)'s:
"LIVE YOUR LIFE PRODUCTIVELY AND DON'T WASTE IT BY MESSING UP SUBWAY CARS."
Railfan Pete.
the #2 line ?:?
LIKE THIS ......!!!
GOOD OL REDBIRDS LAST OF THE RAILFAN WINDOWS !!! ....................
Let me remind you Salaam, that you can still CLEARLY see out the door for the transverse cab...Nothing at all is stopping you from going up to the window and looking out...
ok but "" U "' still have to look thru "" 2 "' sets of glass right folks ?? I am right there am i not ?? ....lol !!!
And at least one (the interior) of those R142 front windows is likely to be polarized.
wayne
So..!!!.......it is then just lkie the r62s on the #1 line !!..................like this one below at the cortlandt station 1999 ....
NO RAILFAN WINDOW AT ALL !!!
No, no, no.
The glass panel between the passenger compartment and the cab on the R-142(A) is polarized. Views out the front are fuzzy, as on the R-46, R-68, and R-68A. Wayne is correct; Clayton is incorrect.
That is not the case on the R-62(A), where the small window into the cab is not polarized. As long as you're the correct height and the T/O hasn't blocked the window with, say, his coat or an ad, you can still see out the front.
ok but its not like th #3 line & redbird & r 32 -38 cars etc.... lol !!
FWIW, the 1 and 3 have effectively switched fleets. Your chances of getting an entirely unadulterated railfan window on the 1 are high (see my other post). Your chances on the 3 are low.
I do appreciate the value of a railfan window.
I meant like it's not pasted over, no window...
At least from the Redbirds, you can read the numbers on the signal plates as the train passes by them. On the cars with the polarized windows, it's fuzz-zy! You can make out the color of the lights on the signal and that's it.
soon the glass will be covered with NWSPAPER like I have seen done in many other cities ................lol !!!
I've seen it here as well. I don't know why some T/O's insist on covering what little window remains.
the reason why they covered the windows on most trains is because you can look a the motorman do his job. the moterman doesn't want to be seen. in the case of the R-142, the railfan window does not allow you to see the T.O. just allows you to look straight ahead.
The reason for the covering of the window is mostly due to the reflections from the lights indide the passenger compartment. Try driving an automobile at night with the interior light on and you get the idea.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> The reason for the covering of the window is mostly due to the reflections from the lights indide the passenger compartment. <<<
Is it the reason or the excuse? Yesterday I was riding on the L.A. Green Line which runs in the median of a freeway. The train was late, and we were traveling so fast we were passing the cars on the moderately crowded freeway, so I went forward to try and see the speedometer. The large window behind the T/O was blocked with posters, but I could look through a small window in the door of the cab. I did not assume the traditional railfan position with my nose pressed against the glass, but stood off to one side with other straphangers. The first thing that I noticed was that the T/O's chin was down on his chest in what in transit riders is considered the "catnap" position. Every so often he would look up at the tracks and then his head would go down again. (BTW the speedometer varied between 57-59 mph.) He did look up pulling into stations, and we stopped and started normally, but I got the impression he was dozing. When we got to the terminal, he announced that the train was going OOS. At that point I noticed him stuffing a large soft covered book into his carry on bag before leaving the cab. Maybe this guy was reading his book below the control panel while operating the train. The blocked window certainly made it impossible to look over his shoulder and see.
Tom
>>>>>>Is it the reason or the excuse?
It can be both. Some guys can't observe the road very well when the interior car lights are hitting the windshield in the exact same spot that he's observing from. OTOH, some guys don't like being watched.
>>> some guys don't like being watched. <<<
Which is understandable, even when the T/O is doing the job perfectly. Some believe if they wanted to be watched they would have gone into show business.
Tom
Many T/O's are mad about the cameras being put in stations, some smoke and don't want to get caught. Some take comfort breaks while they operate, some may have a buddy riding with them on the sneak, some don't care about you they don't want sneaky supervisors spying on them.
I hate the reflection, don't want railfans on my train if it is transverse it is annoying to hear the door handle click all the time when they use it to hold on. I find that even when I make delay announcement the opening is an invitation to knock and ask about what I just announced. People are also likely to ask for directions, I don't begrudge them this when I am on the platform or on lunch or a break or after I clear if I am still in uniform but when I am operating it delays service.
And these guys are, no doubt, the first to go screaming when they get caught breaking the rules.
With all the noise these trains make, you get annoyed by the noise of people holding onto the door handle? I don't think I've ever heard this sound, never mind get bothered by it. As for the opening, what opening? You're supposed to be operating with the cab door closed, unless you are using an approved TA door check to hold the door open.
>As for the opening, what opening
The opening you can see through. Some leave a space in the newspaper some doors have that peephole like opening in the material that is put over the glass.
We all hear different sounds and tune out others. I am cautious about indication but other speed freaks can hear the SLR before the lights kick on, I tune it out. I also find that the foam hearing protectors block out noises differenly than the plastic or headphone ones and not just decibel wise.
I don't understand. Two months ago I was on a D train that, due to a GO, ran local up 8th Avenue from WTC. At 59th, no announcements had(yet) been made, so I knocked on the T/O's door and asked him if he was running express. (Just at that moment, the C/R made an announcement.) I've done the same on other rerouted trains. What's wrong with asking the T/O where his train is going? I hope he has a better idea than I do, and the only other person who might be able to help me is half a train away.
You are taking something out of context.
First, I said after announcements have been made. Some C/O's make excellent announcements on the GO's and repeat them along with service alternatives 2-3 stops in advance and at the platforms with the doors open. They still ask, even people that have heard the announcements and did not have Walkman on. Then they ask are you sure. If you just announce this train is out of service, no passengers take the next train for service would you think "is this train going to Church Ave" an intelligent question?
>What's wrong with asking the T/O where his train is going?
When I am operating, lots. When I operate I have the right to ask the TSS'es not to ask me questions, it's distracting. How are you going to ask your question knocking on the door while I am going thru timers and when I say at the station I'll get to you keep insisting on it's just a quick question. Or are you one of those people who refuse to say where you are going, just asking a series of convoluted questions, like I am going to get out of the train and stalk you. Meanwhile the doors have been closed for 30 seconds and it is rush hours so you are now affecting thousands of others. Or you don't want to talk to the station agent of platform conductor at a gap station as you are leaving becasue you are in a rush, like the 1000 others aren't.
Or do you lean on the service advisory and tap on the glass two seconds before the C/O is ready to close down and then want to talk/vent/question for a minute or two and ask about for the same information you were leaning against for the last 45 minutes and of course they told you it was 45 minutes even though you know your leader went out late.
Do you insist on me opening the window to talk even though I have ear plugs, have hearing loss and can still hear you fine. It's no big deal? I have to go to full service get up open up the window, close it, sit down then release. And I am not going to risk dumping in station to talk to you. Chances are you were on the plat and the doors have closed and no we have to reopen just for you another minute killed.
Lastly I don't really think I have to talk to you. I have to make certain announcements and that's it, it's just being polite and if it is not slowing the train I will. T/O's do not have to wear ties or badges because we do not deal directly with the public. We only have uniforms because we are seen by the public.
Every second counts!
>>>What's wrong with asking the T/O where his train is going?<<<
>>>When I am operating, lots.<<<<
Then, my freind, you are in the wrong line of work, SORRY...pure and simple.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS--they're called C/Rs NOT C/Os.
Peace,
ANDEE
Grr, I picked up that spelling habit over on this board, too.
If you reach back and open your transverse cab doors everytime someone wants directions while you are operating YOU are in the wrong line of work.
Everyone likes to show off their operating skills but you do it all the time and you will make a mistake, hopefully you won't get caught and no one will get hurt.
Taking a comfort while operating SMEE on timers was a one time challenge to my skills, I have nothing left to prove to myself and have no intention of taking silly unnecessary chances.
>>>>>>>>Taking a comfort while operating SMEE on timers was a one time challenge to my skills
DAMN! Ya got me beat.
Believe me it was only EXTREME need that made me do it.
Well I certainly hope so!
Don't open the door while you are between stations - that's a good way to get yourself in trouble. Once you've made a stop, there is nothing wrong with answering the door, mostly because if you don't, you will have pissed off the one person all day who knows how to write letters of complaint, or even worse, a Supterintendent who wanted to congratulate you on the fine job you're doing.
I talk when stopped BUT
I do not play 20 questions with people who won't tell me where they are going. If you are getting on the F and won't give me anymore than uptown as a destination (no address, street number, name east-west)and speak english fluently you get change at West 4th as your answer.
I do not open the window unless I really can't hear them.
I do not hold the train to give points of interest.
I do not take care of all the questions if I know the passenger has to get off at that station and I have seen the platform CR nearby, I refer them talk to that person.
I do not hold the train to give detailed directions to places I refer them to the S/A and the neighborhood map.
I do not play the let me see if I want to get on game, if we are at 169st and all the F's are going thru the cut, I say get on the train I'll give you directions later and talk to them at the next station stop. I do not go thru alternative service with them on the platform when they have to get on that train anyway.
I do not see anything wrong with the above.
I actually think I am good, when we do the shuttles I let them know in every car that has awake passengers that we are changing directions, at 36st I have often added to bad announcements that there are shuttle busses to Ct Sq or Ely. I do listen to announcements for accuracy on the GO's like the Marcy to Myrtle express runs. I take a look at the service diversions for the connecting lines not that that sheet is worth anything anymore.
You always have at least one of those passengers. Yesterday we pull into 14St, and a customer ask me if we are going to Crown Heights? This does not help. There are about 4-7 stations that serves Crown Heights. I just calmly asked him which station in Crown Heights and with a sigh, the passenger said Utica Ave. I had passengers ask me if I going to Franklin, then ask me if Im going to Nostrand, then if Im going to Kingston. Just get to the point about what station you want to get to and thats it.
>I had passengers ask me if I going to Franklin
You see I don't play that, at the point my answer is yes all local stops and I just repeat it.
Actually before I came to transit I was a CSR manager and have worked in retail, difficult people don't bother me BUT I feel it is very important not to encourage them.
You've taken that attitude, and you want to work OPTO?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.............and ha.
You haven't taken my word on this yet. You may want to reconsider.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can certainly understand that you do not want to talk to passengers while the train is in motion, but the rest of your post I found to be a bit disturbing. Continuing to keep that attitude could certainly land you in a pot of boiling water on the green bench downtown.
If someone knocks on your window and wants to ask you a question, then you do not have to go to full service. I don't. And not everyone has a dumb question, some people really need YOUR help.
I'm assuming that you've had one or two bad experiences. So have I, but you need to be a little kinder on the job. Not everyone is a nutcase.
If you need to vent a little more, or if you have any questions, then you know my e-mail address.
Actually I don't want to have the door open and give directions while the train is moving not that I won't listen to passengers. I have stopped the train already because of passenger complaints and have had to call stuff in.
I usually need both hands to close a window so I do have to go full service not everything slides sideways. A surprising number of people will not talk with the window closed even if we can hear each other perfectly. Unless it is an older person or it is very noisy I keep the window closed. If they want to play the staring game until I open the window it is their loss.
You knock on the door when the train is moving for directions you will get me to try to talk thru the door or wait until we stop. You keep knocking you get another 'wait until the station' and get ignored until we stop.
You see OPTO is different to me, timekeeping is more lax and it is all my time and my responsibility. For my own time I don't care but I am not going to waste the C/R's time to play the I won't talk until you open the window game or the I won't tell you where I am going but give me directions. Actually I might not play that for my own time either.
Plus with OPTO I'd have to open the window anyway wearing the safety glasses.
I do think passengers hear the CR better if they can't see you through the door and that is why I like the window covered.
If someone want to bang me in for not opening the window while talking to them or not giving directions when they won't give their destination they are welcome to it.
*************************************************
But I have told TSSes not to talk to me at certain times. I don't want a pop quiz on moving a dead train when I am operating at fast stations. That is perfectly within my rights and reasonable.
I know there are people who don't bother listening to announcements. I'm not one of them. (Sometimes the announcements are inaudible in my car, but that's a different story.)
Unless the matter is urgent, I don't interrupt the T/O while the train is in motion (likewise, I don't interrupt the C/R while he's making announcements). Once the train comes to a stop, though, I'll ask away.
From the passenger's perspective, it sometimes does make sense to ask where an out-of-service train is going. It may just happen to be going where the passenger is trying to get. Of course, if the train is really out-of-service (and the announcement wasn't just a scare tactic to chase people off), the crew would probably be breaking a rule or two by allowing a passenger to remain on board -- but the passenger can certainly ask.
Every TA employee who has contact with the public should expect to field questions on occasion.
>Of course, if the train is really out-of-service (and the >announcement wasn't just a scare tactic to chase people off), the >crew would probably be breaking a rule or two by allowing a passenger
>to remain on board -- but the passenger can certainly ask
The yard is what you get from me sometimes they change their mind and getting a package off of a spur track is crazy. The announcement blue book gives very cryptic announcements, sometimes it's annoying but it does avoid kibitzing (this board and NYers live to kibitz). OOS due to mechanical difficulties, no passengers, thats all you need to know. Delay due to sick passenger you don't need to know that there is freshly poured sand covering a dark crimson area on the tracks.
Many passengers are convinced that the train is good and that we are just goofing off. OOS due to mechanical difficulties, no passengers, that's it, if a person keeps asking either they are looking to pick a fight and I am not going to let them or they don't want to hear that and I can't help it.
I had a C/R let someone stay on a train, it was the A shuttle, it stopped at 168 but we relay at 125th so he let her stay on as that was her destination. If I had access at home to a pair of breasts like that I would never be on the computer. So I know people do it.
>Every TA employee who has contact with the public should expect to >field questions on occasion.
But I am not going to hold the train because of someones vanity. I said in my original post I answer questions all the time.
the green line is terrible has bad service & is unreliable However this is not true with the Long beach Blue Line ..
Wouldn't curtains do the job just as well, if not better? Or one-way glass?
Try riding PATCO, there are no doors, portitions, hell there are no cabs. Basically its a control panel seaerated by a curtain which is never closed during daylight hours, and a 2 foot high seperation between the passengers and motorman. You could see everthing their doing. Also you get a nice view of the cab signals.
But I heard that they took the black tint away b/c of the glare of lighting along the track. Now the drivers have changed their minds? Or maybe just some of them?
c'mon. they just don't want to be seen picking their noses. =)
That too! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
because of that R -142 "transverse cab " instead of a motormans cab ... good by to the railfan window !!
the railfan windows exist still. just get used to its new look.
Sad picture
wayne
Thats the same way I felt when I saw it. It just bring back memories that was in the back of my mind.......
Do you mean this picture I took ( experemental ) back before my grandmothers funeral in flushing n.y. 1999.
the cortlandt st station WTC #1 train heading northbound ??...................sorry if i made anybody feel bad....................:)
:)
and you have the nerve to show it again.
I have a greater respect than ever before for the Redbirds. Any trainset can be made filthy and dirty and I have come out of them looking like a soft coal miner BUT they are easy to fix. They hold up well on a track system a hundred years old. So, don't be surprised that they're still running after fourty years. R142's need to be modified to S U R V I V E. Peter
If the terrorist attacks occured right before the Manhatttan Bridge reroutes went into effect in July, would the MTA still have gone through with the reroutes? Also, what would the routes now be if the northside bridge tracks were still open? Personally, I actually think that both sides of the bridge would be open, and the N and Q would be operating on the southside of the tracks while the B and D would be normal.
This also leads me to another point, why do we need 2 local trains on the Broadway line, since if all routes are open and normal (no WTC situation and no bridge construction), only the R would be on the local track with the N and Q going express. (This is another attempt I'm making to try to get the W back on the express track.)
It wouldn't have been up to the TA. NYCDOT effectively kicked the TA off the north side tracks.
I don't know why you consider N, Q, and R to be normal Broadway service; except for a few months in 1990 (when the N ran express and hte R ran local), the bridge has not been fully open for 15 years. But the Broadway local stops really do need more service than the R alone can provide, and as long as two Q's and a W are on the express tracks, the N would make for a tight squeeze. If, as has been suggested here, the W becomes a local from Ditmars to Whitehall when both sides of the bridge reopen, then the N can be sent express and over the bridge.
Ok, here's the low down involving my trip to Boston over the last two days.
I caught the $1 shuttle from the Middletown Transportation Centre to Meriden CT. From there I caught the Amtrak train 142 Acela Regional to South Station via the Inland route. More re: the timelyness of this train in another post. It was pretty dark out so there wasn't much to report. I forgot to listen to the two Amtrak defect detectors. HART tower is still hanging in there. Meriden's new platform canopy is comming along nicely and I saw mail Train 13 sitting at the Springfield Terminal. Aside from that the ride felt slower than usual, but that was probably because it was dark out, we were being pulled by a P42 and we made every last stop.
The CSX Boston Line was pretty dull in the dark. All the defect detectors still read Conrail, but the dispatcher has changed to the 'NA' dispatch. the Warchester station was really nice and very well lit. It had new hi-level platforms and ample park n' Ride facilities. More good news came in the form of real NYC style US&S searchlight signals (both home and automatic) in and around the Beacon Park yard area.
I arrived in South Station where I met up w/ fellow Subtalker Lexcie and his girlfriend. We then took the Red Line to Harvard Square to fine a place to eat. After the socialization time was over we hopped back on the Red line up to Porter for the walk to Lexcie's $800/mo single room basement appartment.
We awoke early the next morning. Lexcie had a class at 10:45 so we had to get a fast start. we went down to the Red LIne at about 7:45 and caught a train out to Alewife and then back downtown for a change to the Orange Line. Keep in mind that my luck was exceptionally bad and I didn't catch one of the new Red Line cars until my last ride, Sat Morning. To took the Orange Line out to the Southern Terimus and saw a lot of cool stuff on the Amtrak Shore Line, namely some MTBA commuter trains and some B&O CPL dwarf's errected onto a signal bridge for use as high signals. After taking the Orange Line back into the downtown we tranferred to the Blue Line and rode it out to Wonderland. I had to pay a seperate fare as the train dumped us outside of fare control. I really liked the Blue Line, the scenery was great as was the railfan window. It reminded me of an interurban. Catenary was been extende into the tunnel portion and th line still uses real wayside signals w/ trippers and whatnot. Very cool.
After the Blue Line we went back to Kendell/MIT for Lexcie's class. As I didn't not want to go to his class I took his monthly pass and went back to the Red Line. This time I took it to Ashmont in an effort to A) ride the PCC's and B) meet fellow SubTalker Nick B. I gave myself 40 minutes to get there. Well I arrived and waited and Nick didn't show so I got onto a PCC and rode out to Matapan. The grade crossings were cool, but I was a bit disapointed that I coudln't open the windows. :( At Matapan I got yelled at by the driver for taking photos ( ,|,, ) and then, after he left, did things a little more descretely either standing on a public sidewalk or sitting down in one of the fogged over plexiglas bus shelters to take some pics of the equipment line (Show Plow etc.) Matapan is quite dodgey and one local resident offered to sell me drugs. Maybe if he was selling illicit PCC photos he would have made a sale.
Catching the second PCC back I realized that it was only 12:30 and that I had arrived earlier than 12 at Ashmont. Well I ran back to the loading area and there sat good old Nick B. Well, not wanting the trip to go to waste we rode back out to Ashmont on one of the non-rehabbed PCC's. Well we arrived and two of the three inservice trolleys were hooked together, indicating that one had just failed en-route and needed a tow. Well, we waited aroound and they brought out two spare green ones and we rode back on one of those.
Nick and I went back to Kendell to meet with Lexcie and famour Subtalker and Weatherman, Mr. Todd Glickman. I recieved a free weather report and we all chatted together with one of Lexcie's fellow transportation grad students. Then we had a quick 3:30PM lunch. NIck B had to go, but Lexcie's friend, Austin, offered to show me the North Station Super Station (Superness pending completion of construction). Now, I wanted to get a little paper transfer and transfer to the greenline. Well they weren't doing that any more, so Lexcie just gave me his pass and want to South Station directly. Well we went to the North Station green line elevated station and rode the "Boston El" accross the river to Leechmere. I would recomend this ride to anyone as it is really cool. Those Boeing-Vertol LRV's are really fun. We took the Green LIne all the way back to Park Place and changed back to the Red LIne where we went to South Station to meet Lexcie and anoter one of his girlfriends.
After talking a random walk around downtown we had a quick dinner. Lexcie, Austin and Girlfriend #2 wanted to go to a bar, but I had reading to do and needed to call someone so I took Lexcie's Keys and stayed on the Red Line after they got off a kendel. I got off at Davis and walked back to Lexcie's one room basement. I went to bed at 2, expecting him to show up sometime during the night, pounding at the door, but surprise, surprise the next thing I knew it was 7:30 and we was nowher to be sceen. Well I had to catch the 9:30 ACELA Regional out of South Station, so I left him a note and embarked on one final Red Line ride. I FINALLY got one of the new cars and I have to admit that they rock. The railfan window is much better, they are smoother, have a better sound AND don't look like transplanted British rolling stock.
I made South Station by 8:45 and went out on the platform for some pictures in this somewhat foggy morning. Nobody seemed to care as i stood at the end of the platform and took fomr pics of the PRR dwarf signals they use in the terminal area, some MBTA commuter trains and the soon to depart Inland train 145. We were finally ;et on our regional.
The ride is Mass was really fun and even our little old ACELA regional was moving like shit on fire. Once we hit RI and CT though things slowed down. We probably stayed between 70 and 90 for most of it. This is why I advocate lo-tech catenary as in the case of the Shore Line the CT stuff dosen't make much differance. I was amazed at the number of grade crosings still left on the like (like 10) and the drawbridges were really cool. SS119 at Groten is still standing as we saw a submarine headding out of New London. I was also surprised by the presence of a tunnel just east of New Haven. Once off my train I hung around the platform taking some pics of two ACELA Express trains. Again, nobody, including police, seemed to care one bit about what I was doing. I caught the 2:30 Greyhound back to Middletown and walked back to my house to end the trip. Stay Tuned for an in-depth report of what happened on my Amtrak trains.
"but I was a bit disapointed that I coudln't open the windows."
They rusted many years ago and had to be sealed. Surprisingly even without A/C or windows they are still fairly comfortable in the summer.
" At Matapan I got yelled at by the driver for taking photos"
You should have tried to get a permit. If they still give them out it only takes 20 minutes.
"Matapan is quite dodgey and one local resident offered to sell me drugs."
He could have been a cop. In the late 80s and early 90s Mattapan was known for being on of the worst areas in Boston and due to its location was the first choice for people from the suburbs to get drugs. Undercover cops often target people who look like they are from the suburbs there. And the area has greatly improved over 10 years ago and the crime rate is about the same as the rest of the city.
"North Station green line elevated station and rode the "Boston El" accross the river to Leechmere."
The Boston El was the old orange line that El is known as the "North Station El or the "West End El"
"Those Boeing-Vertol LRV's are really fun."
And thanks to the scrap ready Bredas they will be around a while longer. They were supposed to be gone in '99
"we took the Green LIne all the way back to Park Place"
That's Park STREET park place is a closed station in New York.
Both Park Places in NYC are open, the one on the 2/3 (now 1/2) may still be closed but I am pretty sure it is open.
Actually, Park Place on the 1/2(2/3) is still closed...some person was talking about it being flooded of something...
Trains are running through it...
That's Park STREET
Then why did they charge Me $45 to stay there?
I'm in Norfolk, VA planning on returning to NYC to sdee family real soon...I was curious to know where is Pitkin Yard?...I know it's off the A/C lines somewhere around Grant Ave....Can I drive past and see the trains or is it like how the 4 line is with Tracey Towers just about over the yard.
It off Linden Blvd and there an apartment building right over it.
Hey does anyone out there no what year Pitkin yards was built, also was the projects above it built the same time as the yard?
I'd gamble that Pitkin was built around the same time as the final underground IND extension...1948 (Euclid Avenue). Grant Avenue came a bit later.
I think "the projects" are the Pink Houses, I am not sure though, please correct me.
Pink Houses are across Linden Blvd. Those "apartment buildings" that sit on top of Pitkin Yard are Linden Plaza.
Coincidentally, this was the same question that I have come across in the past week! Thanks for answering it for him and me.
Any more details?
Railfan Pete.
It is kind of like Mosholu Yard with apartment buildings right over it. You can take the A to Grant Ave, cross the Conduits, walk down a block or so, and it is right there. By bus: the B14,15 and 20 buses stop in front of it on the Linden Blvd side. The B13 bus is a couple of blocks away.
Next to Bin Loden Blvd and down the block from East New York yards. Park your car in a safer neighborhood and take the train
Judging from the responses in this thread, I went ahead and devised a possible chart of remaining designations and their colors. I'm sure it will generate some debate and contention, but feel free to suggest revisions, and I can make another!
The P and the T are on the R32 roll signs as a centered White with a black P...
As are U, X, and Y. Also, Z appears in a brown circle centered on the rollsign.
You forgot the double letters from the 70's (RR,EE, etc)....only joking.
Somewhere within this font, there are logos for the QB, QJ, and RJ, but I couldn't find them when making the chart!
The QB and RJ were both red while the QJ was black.
Don't forget the other wierdos: "MJ" (fuchsia), "JJ" (orange), "TT" (dark blue), "MM" (green)... the ones you don't see every day. Gawd, what I'd give for another R32 curtain roll....
wayne
This is Cool! Where did u get this from?
How bout propsing 10th Ave for the I,O,P lines...
My own thoughts about naming subway routes is to go to an (almost) all-numeric system, based mainly on a line's numbered avenue/street of service in Midtown.
E.g., 80 would be the A, 81 the C; the E could be 531, 533 or 83. The Flushing would be 421. The Canarsie/14th line would be the 141.
There is an obvious pattern here; two digits refer to an avenue, three digits to a cross street. Numbers ending in zero are principal thru expresses, those in 1 being the principal thru local. Low even numbers are express, low odd numbers are local.
For the Lex, Broadway and Nassau lines, letters would be used. L0 could be the current 4, B1 could be the R. N1 could be the J. One might also use 40 for the N, extending the system to 4th Ave Brooklyn. Something has to be thought up for the current G, as well as for the various shuttles.
Current regular alternate terminals would receive independent designations. The diamond 5 could be the L4, for example.
You can get fancier, with a following letter indicating terminals. 70a could be the current 2 line, terminating at, for example, Atlantic Ave.
The point is make the whole thing highly intuitive. Ideally, it's set up in such a way that just about all possible service is unambiguously covered.
No one will ever understand it.
Funny thing because I picked the H,I,K,O,P,T,U,X & Y was becaused theyre not being used anymore.The H isn't on the R44 or R46 rollsign,the I was never used and cannot be mistaken for 1,The K isn't used anymore,the O CANNOT be mistaken for 0 because there is no 0 train,The P is just a target for dumb kindergarten jokes which was funny right befor we evoled some 1 million years ago,The T basically served absolutely no purpose,The U and X was never used.
The T was the pre-Chrystie St. Broadway-West End Express.
H and K are on all B division rollsigns, including the new R68 signs, and the R40/42/44/46 end route signs. H and K are in a blue circle.
WHY do we need an 11 line? what is the purpose? First of all, it's a duplicate, a CARBON COPY of the (7)<7> line. Secondly, it cant run both ways at the same time!!!! Do you REALIZE that? its simpler to say :the express skips all stops east of queensboro plaza except woodside, junction blvd, and shea stadium! Same for anything rlse up there
You won't need the IRT Peak Diamonds because -
#8 replaces Diamond 6
#10 replaces Diamond 5
#11 replaces Diamond 7
#14 replaces Diamond 4
wayne
You forgot Diamond Q Orange/Yellow, Diamond M, Diamond W
And J M Z are Nassau Street Local/Express Lines
Sorry, but no one would want to throw in a , to throw people off! is ok, since it provides West End service. But - what's the point, you probably wouldn't want D, Q, and just to provide Brighton service! The only logical explanation would be to start up Brighton Skip Stop('64 - 5/23/87)!
Generate some debate? Good God, where did all those new lines come from. A 12 and 13, a U, X, Y, etc. What the hell is going on. You can't tell me all those lines exist. You going to need a scorecard to keep up with all the changes. I thought I knew the subway in New York pretty well, but the next time I come to New York I will probably be as confused as those out of town rubes who ride it for the first or second time.
Esspicly if you have a year old map and are trying to find B N or D at coney island.
Simply right click on the image and choose either "Set as Wallpaper" or "Copy to Desktop" depending on your browser.
A couple of bonus goodies in this one too, buried beneath some of the other icons.
Care to offer it in other resolutions, for the benefit of those of us with bifocal bifocals? I'd like to see it in 800x600 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry - but I can't give you a version in 800x600.....
but I can give you 2!!! :)
One standard......
and one "in motion" to really make your bifocal bifocal woozy!!!
Standard version installed... at least until the next time my wife uses the machine :-) Looks good on my big Mac. (My wife has her own, but no internet connection, so she uses mine for that purpose... hence the background probably won't last all that long...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks good. One of the colors is wrong - a blue 7? Iofrget the color of the 11. And you have the C twice.
BTW - is this licensed by the MTA? 'Cause if it isn't you could have copyright problems.
I know the 7 is a little too indigo-ish to be exactly correct. The 11 is actually a possible redesignation of the 7 Express. Yeah, I know I goofed on the double C's (while there's no 2!) oops, still I was just playing around.
As to the copyright problems, I doubt the TA would have a problem with this, as it's completely NON-Commercial, promotes the agency in a positive light, and is intended for private use.
Regards.
Broadway,
I think this is very creative and cool... people will always pick, pick just ignore them and enjoy your cool work...
Allen
Allen,
It has nothing to do with "being picky". I am merle concerned for someone who posted something that could (at the worst case scenario) get him into trouble with the MTA lawyers. That is something none of us want to see.
Allan
Wish someone would develope a Subway Screensaver set of maybe 6 to 8 pictures, like on the Calender
I have. Look at the download station on my website at www.orenstransitpage.com.
>>> Wish someone would develope a Subway Screensaver set of maybe 6 to 8 pictures <<<
Use WebShots. I now have about 450 different pictures of various transit systems, including some of the great shots Salaam has posted lately, and other things of interest to me that rotate on a random basis as wallpaper (changed every day) and screensavers (a new one every minute).
Tom
Here's one for you Redbird Fans!
Not nearly as busy as the other one, but more on the simple and aesthetic approach.
I like the neon effect on "Redbirds"
Bill "Newkirk"
I was wondering why the Y was blue in the first picture. Now t's light blue. This for 2nd Av., right?
Wow, this one is SWEEEET!!! Nice work.
and I thought JOSEPH had the Technicolor Dreamcoat...
What.. No 2 Train!????
Fred would like it with the extint N right on the middle. Where is the Q?
He's not the only one... especially sinc it's gone now...
Between the 11 and G, above the C, below the B.
I've got my racing stripe R-10 photo for wallpaper.
Hi,
Does anyone know where I can get the font used for the NYC subway and the London Underground?
Mac or PC would be super!
Thanks,
Allen
Are you referring to the LOGOs used on the destination signs, such as (1), (5), etc,.... or the station letting typeface, which I believe is either simple Helvetica or New Zurica.
I have the Designation font for the Subway lines, if you'd like it, and I think I have the rollsign and station lettering font for the London underground too. Let me know you want it, and it's yours!
Wouldn't mind a copy too.
Thanks
Simon
Swindon UK
Yes Please!!!
Thanks so much for the quick reply!
Please send me all?
Could you maybe post the files online? I'd love to see them too. :) Thanks in advance. (If you decide to e-mail, use this one instead of the one linked to my SubTalk handle. Thanks!)
Or rather,
Or rather, gradientfill@aol.com. Link in last post didn't work correctly.
C
Position on London Underground is not as straightforward as it might first appear.
Currently, LU use a font called "New Johnston" which is not available commercially as far as I know.
The original font (phased out in the 1980s?) is very different in many ways (especially the numbers). It is sold by P22, and can be found at:
www.p22.com/products/london.html
ITC produce a non-sanctioned font that is so close to Johnston's original that only an expert could tell them apart. Only Johnston medium looks the part. It can be found at:
www.itcfonts.com
Type "Johnston" into the find box.
For those of you who collect the MTH O-gauge subway cars: I just noticed on the MTH site that the release of their "Premiere"-line R-32 subway set has been pushed back from this month to December.
I hope the long wait and the high price ($450.00 for a four-car set)is worth it. From what I hear (from a source whose credibility I trust), these models will have safety chains, a seated T.O., and--get this---OPERATING DOORS!!!! (Before you get too excited, it should be noted that these doors will be manually controlled by levers on the underside of the car--not by electronics.)
The upcoming "Railking" R-17 set is still scheduled to be delivered in January, 2002. This set is basically the same as the currently-available R-21 model with a different paint job (1970's silver and blue), storm door (split-porthole), and increased price tag (inflation??).
Are there any no-assembly-required NYC subway trains available in HO scale?
Look at the "Transfer Station" section of this website. There are links to several manufacturers that sell models in "O", "HO", and "N" scales. I think some of them offer their otherwise unpainted models as assembled, painted trains for an extra fee.
Yes... contact the good folks at MTS Imports... it's all brass, however, so hope you have a fat checkbook :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One of the R-17's is to be numbered 6688 in honor of the car at Shoreline. They came up there to record the sounds for their model. Wonder if a model of Mr. SMEE and Stef will be in each motorman's cab?
Isn't that train painted in Redbird colors?
Production delays are nothing new for MTH. I will say that the R-21 Redbirds were worth the wait. They look beautiful on my layout - even on the tighter curves. Keep in mind that each production delay pushes MTH closer to the time where their Protosound 2 will come with the functioning DCS instead of an upgrade.
The R-17s will definitely have a home on my layout. Guess I'm buying as many different sets as they produce. I wish they were producing them in the original colors, though.
As for the R-32s, I don't think that the price will be the determining factor in its popularity or salability. The R-32s will have a restriction of O-42 curves or greater. This is clearly not for the O-27 enthusiest. Even on some larger layouts, the occasional O-31 curve section will possibly cause a problem. I'm contemplating a new line on my layout. My wife wants an environmental impact statement (Translation: Where the hell are we going to walk in the basement)
I'm wondering if the 42-inch curve restriction involves the use of the longer couplers or the shortened ones...
On the R-21 set, the pantograph gates occasionally scrape with a 31-inch curve.
The O-42 is due to the fact that the R-32s will be part of the MTH Premier line. As such, the cars will be longer (15") and likely protosize couplers. I'm sure with longer coupler shanks, an occasional O-31 curve might be possible.
<< My wife wants an environmental impact statement (Translation: Where the hell are we going to walk in the basement) >>
Back when I had a layout, a translation of my wife's comments meant "it ought to be illegal to store all that crap!"
I had a finished room in my basement but since my daughter has been out on her own, it was largely unused - even the bar. Now that I've taken it over, my wife 'misses' the space. The original layout was supposed to be 14' X 14' but has expanded - even though still in the beginning stages, to take over the entire room of roughly 20' X 26' except for to aisles (with duck-unders). Wife can't complain too much because my grand-daughters each have their own trains to run.
Does the metrocard system allow the MTA to see where a rider enters the system each time they use the card - what station they use, the time, etc? I can only assume such data is collected and processed somewhere... ....additionally, if this information is collected, is it actually used to determine some routinges - i.e. - the impending e-f-v shuffle on queens blvd?
Yes! Each control area (A HEET or one of a series of turnstiles) has a code number such as sub1234 or bus5678. The S/A uses this if a customer claims their card said "Just Used". We ask them for their card and insert it into our computer. the screen would tell us the last time, date and place plus other info.
I think it was posted some time ago, that some defendent in a criminal trial proved their innoncence by usign these records.
>>> Yes! Each control area (A HEET or one of a series of turnstiles) has a code number such as sub1234 or bus5678. <<<
Your response indicates that the last use is recorded on the card. The question was as to whether the TA is able to tell how many entries are made at a given station and whether the TA can track the use of a Metrocard from the data collected.
I seem to remember something posted several months ago about an employee being tracked to the area where his murdered ex-wife lived because he used his employee card to go there. Because it was an employee card, they could match it to the individual, but cards sold to the general public are not registered as to who the buyer is. Please correct me if this incorrect.
Tom
Cards sold to the general public are not registered. However if a customer can provide the 10 digit number on the back, the card's history can be provided. The last time and place it was used. How much money was added to the card. Not to mention the number of times the card was actually used.
All cards can be tracked.
The T/O 'Day in the Life' on this site has a good example of this in action . . . .
I've noticed for the many years that I railfanned, there seems to be planks of wood and rail bolted down on the track ties of the El tracks.I've noticed this a lot on the structure of the 2 and the 5 is there a reason for this?
It keeps the ties from shifting and stiffens the trackbed.
Oh, and the rails are called "guard rails"--they provide a first line of defense in case there is a derailment to keep the train from straying too far from its path. Note that these rails are closer around curves.
Depends. It could be several things. Could be for walkways, could be guard rails to keep the wheels on the ties in case of a derailment, could be there to keep the ties from moving.
-Hank
Anybody know if there are any books or websites with LIRR track maps? I had to take the train from Mineola to Farmingdale today. There's alot of sidings after Westbury and by the LIPA Hicksville offices. Pretty fast ride between Hicksville and Bethpage.
your in troble now the FBI is comming after you. you should now better than to ask for track maps
what's up with that
There was an obscure short thread on the subject.
track map thread
So I guess I'm not allowed to be a railfan anymore huh? It is truly sad it is coming to this, and the fear and panic we're in is exactly what the terrorists want.
I think both Steve and myself were both joking about it because the DC police asked the Webmaster to take down a track map this week.
I wonder if this will affect the new version of Peter Dougherty's "Tracks of the Subway" book?
Anybody know if there are any books or websites with LIRR track maps? I had to take the train from Mineola to Farmingdale today. There's alot of sidings after Westbury and by the LIPA Hicksville offices. Pretty fast ride between Hicksville and Bethpage.
The siding by the LIPA facility splits in two. One part goes into the facility itself. I don't believe it's used any more, at least I've never seen it in use in the 4+ years that I've been riding the LIRR. The other part dead-ends, and is used to store some old cars used years ago for a short-lived piggyback service. Supposedly these cars are in such bad shape that no one wants to haul them away. Work trains occasionally use this siding.
Just beyond the LIPA facility, there's an actively used siding that serves a chemical plant. While traces of sidings serving the former Grumman Aircraft facilities are still visible, the connections to the LIRR mainline have long since vanished.
Yup I noticed the abandoned siding that leads into the LIPA property. All weedgrown and mostly covered, however the ones just east of Westbury were in good shape, and there was a third track with third rail in the vicinity of Wantagh parkway. I guess they use it for layups.
Does anyone know where I can get a updated track map of the LIRR? I have a track map, but it is dated from 1999, and doesn't have the new yard alignment at Dunton Yard with the Air Crap...err Air Train construction in progress. If anyone knows a good place to look for a updated track map please pass along the info. Thanx a lot!! :-)
Could you e-mail me you're old one? I don't have any :(
The "chemical" plant is part of a building at 120 New South Road, Hicksville. NSR is the eastern edge of the LIPA/LILCO property on Old Country Road.
120 NSR was home to several businesses, including Inland Plastic Materials, Inc., a plastics extruder, now defunct 6 years. They would take clear plastic pellets and mix-in powders to give you plastic pellets in any color you wished for you to mold into whatever product you made. They would bring in a tank car from Citgo, Amoco and other oil companies (remember that plastic is derived from oil) and pump the tanks contents into one of the silos and then use it as needed.
What're you, some kind of terrorist?
No, I just wondered why there wasn't a book on the LIRR track layouts since there's one of the subway NYCS. Terrorist, what are you joking? That is quite an offensive comment to say the least.
I obtained a LIRR track map through this company, which sells rail maps, timetables (public and employee), and various other railroad items and memorabilia. Give this a try. The track map I got thru this source was from 1999. They may have a newer updated one available. Contact the compnay to find out whats available. Here's the address...hope you find what you are looking for!!
Carl Loucks
P.O. Box 484
North Haven, CT 06473
ct.direct.mail@snet.net
The big railroadiana show at Gaithersburg, MD is the November 4. You might find it there.
Michael
Anyone have an idea of how fast a train ususally runs to on a express run i.e. a 59th to 125 th on the Central Park W.??
On R-32's the speedometer is visible through the crack in the cab door hinge. I don't know about the R-38 but I'd guess the same applies. Many R-44's have a tiny circle of clear glass in the cab window; you should be able to make out the speedometer.
(The A runs R-38's and R-44's.)
But suffice it to say that this express run in particular is dreadfully slow.
If you want speed on an express, try the 3 south of 96th Street: 46 is not uncommon.
> But suffice it to say that this express run in particular is dreadfully slow.
Really? I've heard it was pretty fast.
Have you ever ridden it (within the past few years)? For a three-mile run that skips seven stops, one would expect it to be fast, but in fact it isn't.
I've seen the R-38s get up to 37, maybe 38 mph along the CPW dash. The R-44s would probably be comparable.
In the olden days, the R-10s SMOKED on that stretch; it was a racetrack. 81st St. northbound would be a blur, those Thunderbirds would be hitting their stride just before that station.
Do you know how fast they went? Seems interesting. Why do they slow down now? Timers?
all i know is that run from W4 to 34/Hearld Square is sweet...so is the one from 14St Union Square to Herald under Broadway...
Since the R-10s didn't have speedometers, the exact speed they got up to is unknown. 45-50 mph would be an estimate. There used to be a 45 mph sign on the northbound express track in the vicinity of 81st St. A few things to consider here:
A confined space such as a tunnel always gives the impression of high speed. So does noise. The R-10s weren't the quietest cars around; however, they weren't painfully loud when they ruled supreme on the A.
There are more timers now than there used to be, that's for sure. The across-the-board field shunt modification has also contributed to slower speeds.
P. S. The R-1/9s weren't exactly slouches on the CPW dash, either.
As I said, slow. The IRT local moves faster than the IND express; the IRT express leaves the IND in the dust.
A lot of locals move faster than expresses. The local tracks must have fewer timers.
My experience with CPW is pretty slow...
I've had some of those, too. That dash ain't what it used to be, that's for sure.
I got an R44 with no view on August 20 and that run was pitiful compared to the southbound 2.
Anything is pitiful compared to the southbound 2. (Well, the southbound 3, now. The 2 runs local.)
The CPW ride is slow on R-38, R-44, and R-68 alike. Only on the R-68 does one get the unique R-68 sound effects, though. Do hippos grunt in real life too?
CPW is nothing impressive. The timers ruin all the fun. And I guess I wasn't the only one who noticed that Hippos grunt. R68's are mammoth beasts but they are quite amusing to ride, not for speeds but sounds.
What do you mean by grunting? When the motors are all high and you get the nice high pitched noise, or when it brakes near stop and you get the bending metal noise?
Anyone have an idea of how fast a train ususally runs to on a express run i.e. a 59th to 125 th on the Central Park W.??
(Exact speeds are not given)
Consider these express dashes:
1) CPW dash from 59 St. to 125th St. (NOTE: NOT 125th St. to 59 St. unfortunately) Take a D train uptown here and you'll experience the dash. I've noticed trains on the southbound express run and they are like crawling ants!.
2) Lower Manhattan dashes: #2 and #3 lines (NOTE: Please check with MTA SERVICE ALERT info. for modifications) between 14 St. and 34 St. and vice versa.
#4 and #5 lines between 14 St. and 42nd St. - Grand Central.
3) Between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Av. especially SOUTHBOUND, trains reach a pretty decent speed but slow down around the 36 St. local station area (speed restriction is a requirement) Trip time between these stations is exactly 5 minutes on the exp run.
4) DASH between Queens Plaza and Lexington Av. - 59 St. Take the R train (now a Q) from these two points (NOTE: NOT Lex. Av. to Queens Plaza) Last Sunday I rode this dash the train was moving at a rate of 60 ft./sec.! You'll like it a lot.
5) In conjunction with the dash in #4, N train (with the W) between Queensboro Plaza and Lex. Av. - 59 St. (NOTE: NOT Lex Av. to Queensboro Plaza.)
These are the dashes that I can think of at the moment. SubTalkers here comment on the R10's which left behind a cloud of dust at 81 St. - Museum of Natural History.
Some dashes are faster than others, but you'll experience them as pretty much the same.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
To add, the Joralemon tunnel... there's some good speed there in both directions.
Also I think that Lex exp Brooklyn Bridge to 14th is pretty fast. Q express on Brighton is pretty quick too isn't it?
Yes, the brighton is pretty fast.
Also, the "A" line gets good speed on the Fulton express/Rockaway branch.
Yes, Joralemon is fast -- I think we hit 51 the one time I looked.
The Q express may be fast for B Division but it's not terribly fast in absolute terms. Yesterday, when the northbound (circle-)Q was running express from KH to PP, it topped out at 39. That's not fast.
I have a feeling that was because of the equipment you were probably riding on (R32s or R68s). I think if you rode a Q diamond of R40s, you would definately see a difference.
Do you have reason to believe that the R-32 I was riding moves more slowly than an R-40? The ride certainly didn't seem any slower than usual.
Train Dude?
I'm not TD, but I can tell you that there is no class of car slower or faster than another class. Each train is a random thing, you don't know how fast it'll go until you ride it.
1) My experience differs from yours.
2) A few factual corrections: (a) lower Manhattan is well south of 14th Street; (b) the 1 and 2 run local and the 3 runs express as far south as 14th Street, and this service pattern has been unchanged for nearly a month; (c) the entire line has fast expresses but, IME, they're fastest between 42nd and 96th.
4) By my calculations, that comes to about 41 mph. (Why not use the units everyone else uses? Where do you come up with your feet-per-second measurement, in any case?) I just posted in another thread that my Q yesterday hit 51 between Lex and Queens Plaza (which you claim to be the slow direction) according to the speedometer in the cab.
4) By my calculations, that comes to about 41 mph. (Why not use the units everyone else uses? Where do you come up with your feet-per-second measurement, in
any case?) I just posted in another thread that my Q yesterday hit 51 between Lex and Queens Plaza (which you claim to be the slow direction) according to the
speedometer in the cab.
a)Whoopsie. I calculated that ft./sec speed by observing and listening. I know R32's are 60ft. long and each "gap" in the track that I heard (when the wheels first hit the gap) was 1 sec. or close to it. But we were going faster than usual. I'm sure we hit over 50mph.
b) Well my R train didn't many months ago. I was in a dire need for speed after we left Lex Av., but the train just wouldn't go faster. We traveled at a rate of no more than 30mph, and after we passed the switch for the N train, there was now no chance to speed up. There are multiple curves left and right in the Queens Plaza area.
Railfan Pete.
> We traveled at a rate of no more than 30mph
Maybe there was another train in front of it.
- Lyle Goldman
>>>>>>>1) CPW dash from 59 St. to 125th St.
Avg. speed 36 mph.
>>>>>>>>3) Between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Av. especially SOUTHBOUND
Trains do about 43 mph around the first curve south of 65 St, but then they slow down due to a slight upgrade and maintain a 38 mph speed up until the GT 30 area.
>>>>>>>>>4) DASH between Queens Plaza and Lexington Av. - 59 St. Take the R train
R trains normally hit 50 mph in this stretch, faster if they don't wait for the entire train to clear the switch at the 11th St Cut.
N/W trains can go as fast as 62 mph.
What is the highest speed you've experienced (and verified) between local stops?
I was enjoying the view from the newly reinstated railfan window on the 1 this morning. As we emerged from the tunnel between 116th and 125th, I noticed that we were moving faster than the (light) traffic on Broadway. I peeked into the cab: we were doing 42.
For comparison, later in the day I rode a Q (R-32) from Stillwell to Roosevelt. Due to (invisible) track work, northbound trains ran express from Kings Highway to Prospect Park, but we still didn't exceed 39. We only beat that in the 60th Street tube, where we reached a whopping 51 -- with grade timers, yet! But I don't consider a river tube to be a local run, so that doesn't qualify.
Can anyone beat 42?
44 on the same stretch that you mentioned.
Not bad. Why do trains pick up so much speed there? Not that I'm complaining -- perhaps I should be asking why trains don't move so fast elsewhere.
It's a shame the 1 is so plagued by scheduling problems; otherwise it really is one of the system's highlights. Even though it's a local, it can make very good speed. It's one of the most varied lines in the system, with sections of typical cut-and-cover, deep-bored tunnel, typical el (including a section over a lift bridge), and arched viaduct all between 96th Street and the borough line. Station design is similarly varied. It's also proven itself to be one of the most useful lines in the system. And the railfan window has returned!
I know I like it, it has been a very practical line for me for a long time. I know happen to live along it (when I'm having trouble sleeping is the only time it is a bother, I can here the trains all night). But I must say I use it not for many trips and find it great, execpt for the gaps that have now gotten worse with the extensiton to new lots
>>> when I'm having trouble sleeping is the only time it is a bother, I can here the trains all night <<<
That brings back memories of the time before air conditioning when the windows were open in the summer, and traffic noises died down, we could hear the Flushing line trains as they ran between the tunnel and Willets Point and on to 111th Street, more than a half mile away. Every so often the ceiling of the room would light up from the artificial lightning produced by the trains.
Tom
No doubt, the light from the arcing of the third rail is a common occurnace, my bedroom often is aglow. I think it drives my poor cat crazy, but kind of like it.
>>>I think it drives my poor cat crazy...<<<
Having had cats for years, I can tell you this, cats are born crazy
8-)
I think the fastest speed between stations is on the B Division, is obviously Broad channel to Howard beach on the A either direction. Its a 7 minute ride! And the A Division, the best speed between stations is the number 5 north of E180. Also on the 2 and 5, there is a nice stretch between i believe 174 and Freeman st
The Howard Beach-Broad Channel gets the nod in my book for the fastest run between local stops. I rode on an A train in July of 1969 that you would have thought had a Saturn V booster attached to it. Once we cleared the bridge, that train of R-10s was off to the races.
You may be right, mine is now 10 years old and she still spends time every day chasing her tail!!! I think she have the record for the oldest kitten on record.
Well, I live on the 5th floor above the 4th Ave Line, and we have a hallway light that turns on or off depending on whether the R (oops, J) is passing below. Strange.
That's a strange place for an annunciator. Does it chirp, too?
Because it's a long, fairly straight (just that one little jog before the portal) section of DOWNHILL track. Most of the time, the train is already moving somewhere between 34 and 38 before emerging from the portal.
Those railfan windows never went away. On the 3. Every 1 train with a railfan window has a blue stripe under the # on the side of the train. I bet you every one has a 3 train strip map. Now that the 1 runs a longer route, encompassing the 3 in Brooklyn, Some of the 3 cars are running on the 1. Big deal. Find me a railfan window on a car with a 1 strip map on the inside, then I'll be impressed.
What's your point? I can ride the 1 standing at a true railfan window at the front. I was unable to do that on September 10. Sure, the cars in question have blue stripes and 3 strip maps, but they're running on the 1.
I can
R-32 C train b/t 59 Street and 72 Street ... 44 m.p.h.
The 1 between 168th and 181st.
The A between West 4th and 14th Str.
I have seen 47 MPH done on the Manhattanbound express track of the 'A' line between Utica and Nostrand. As the train enters Nostrand I see 47 on the display.
those are express stops not local
I was at the railfan window from 96th to 181st. We didn't break 40 past 125th (I had one eye glued to the speedometer). I don't remember how fast we went between 168th and 181st but it wasn't 42.
I'll keep an eye out on the A. (But not the C/E?) The speedometer is visible on some R-44's.
Kingsbridge to Tremont, southbound on the D - local or express easily hits 40+
Beverly to Cortelyou on the Brighton, sure is the slowest, and shortest
is Cortelyou to Beverley the shortest distance between stops? I would think so, but I'd like to be sure. Also, how long is it, by riding by there it seems like one 600' train length.
I think it is 700 feet. You can clearly see Coutelyou in a shot I took of a Q at Beverley.
Fulton to Wall St. on the 1/2 seems a snap.
A 600 ft train clears one (Beverly-Cortelyou) as it enters the other
Does anyone know which station has the narrowest platform?
My guess is the northern most(back) end of the CI bound Brighton at Avenue H. That platform looks to be about 10" wide!
Also my guess for the narrowest express platform (trains stopping on both sides) would be one stop earlier at southern most(front) end of Newkirk Avenue(CI bound). That appears about 2 feet or less!
Anyone know of any narrower platforms?
There one on the L line. I forgot which one but at one point the platform looks to be only 6 inches wide.
You're probably thinking of E. 105th Street, and it sure is narrow.
At 72nd Street on the 1/2/3, the platforms taper to points at each end. (The north end of the northbound platform was recently widened, but the other three points are still there.) That station's a busy one, too.
If they can widen that one platform end at 72nd Street so easily, why can't they widen just about all of the extremely narrow platforms in the system?
- Lyle Goldman
Who says it was done so easily?
Keep in mind that only the northern tip of one platform was widened (and extended slightly), and only because the new station exit will be above it. (The southbound platform is offset slightly to the north, so it's already wide enough at the relevant point.)
It just so happens that the section of platform in question is directly below the (former) northbound roadway of Broadway between 72nd and 73rd, an entirely superfluous piece of road as Amsterdam is right next to it. In fact, in its latest years, only buses (M57 and M104) have been permitted to use it. The ultimate plan is for the small park between Broadway and Amsterdam to be widened over the old roadway, with the new station entrance in the middle.
Since the street wasn't needed, it was opened up. A new path was dug out for the local track. For the first six months of this year, weekend local service between 72nd and 96th was suspended about every other week to keep the local track at 72nd clear. Eventually, one weekend, the new local track was connected and the platform was actually widened.
To widen a few feet worth of platform, service on the track was suspended (fortunately there was an express track next to it) and the street above was closed (fortunately the street was unnecessary). Now, how would you pull off a similar project at, say, Wall Street on the 1/2? Close William Street for six months and suspend Brooklyn-bound service every weekend?
This one is not on the NYCTA subway, but rather the MBTA Commuter Rail in suburban Boston.
Mansfield, MA, southbound, at the northern end. It's just 18"!! Stand there when an Acela Express goes by at 150mph, and you'll get more than a rush...
There is the island Platform on the 1 and 2 at Wall Street. The North end (uptown end) is so narrow that the platform edges have only a couple of inches between them!
Try the north end of the Clark Street platform of the IRT in Brooklyn. That thing has to be about 2 feet wide, at most!
Peace,
ANDEE
The north end of 110th Street-Central Park North on the #2/#3 line is VERY narrow, at most two or three feet wide.
wayne
Not Park Place to Chambers? Very close and very slow (due to the sharp curve).
That's true that the southbound D local hits 40+ mph, but the speed limit is 28 mph. That T/O better hope that it isn't the day for OSS guys there.
Brighton local from Av. U. to Kings Highway. Same from Kings Highway to Av. M. I remember those R27/30s roaring into KH, and keeping pace with the express from KH to Av. M, as a high schooler in the mid-late-60s.
>>>>>>>>The A between West 4th and 14th Str.
The speed limit entering W4 southbound is 25 mph, and it is the same speed limit entering 14 St northbound.
All of these T/O's are in a hurry to nowhere doing all kinds of crazy speeds, and then they bitch when they get caught by supervision.
I have no concrete information, but I've always thought the (G) seems pretty fast between stops south of Queens Plaza.
:-) Andrew
That's a hard one to verify, since the R-46 speedometer isn't visible to mere humans unless the T/O has the door propped open. Hope for the rare R-32 appearance and take advantage of the crack, I guess.
47 on a southbound 3 train as it hit 50th St. Kept right on going, too; the timers didn't kick in until we were well past the station.
But that's an express. The 3 (and formerly 2) often hits 46 there, and 47 is not unheard of. I'm asking about locals.
The timers south of 50th Street kick in roughly as the rear of the train reaches the front of the platform. From that point on, the local is faster than the express.
Sad but true.
Based upon my own unscientific observations, I have found the fastest local runs to be:
-'1' from 145th through Dyckman. Track is ramrod straight and there's at least ten blocks between each station.
-'2' from Gun Hill through Bronx Park East. Noise of Redbirds give additional illusion of speed.
-'6' from 51st through 96th. At least eight blocks between stations The 142s make some of the curvier Bronx tunnel stretches and straightaways along Westchester Avenue between Whitlock and Parkchester feel much faster than they did on Redbirds or 62As.
-'A' from Beach 67th through 36th.
-'F' from West 4th through East Broadway, then 7th Avenue through Church. No noticeable slowdown on several sharp curves. Even with demise of outer Queens express, very good speed from Kew Gardens through 179th.
-'G' from Greenpoint through Flushing. Long distances between stops typical of outerborough IND construction. When R1/9s ran here, the bull 'n' pinion gears straining from the high speed combined with loud banging and rattling made you wonder if the train was going to explode.
-'L' from Halsey around curve onto embankment into Wilson. Also from Livonia through East 105th.
Your mention of the G reminds me of one of the few times I ever rode on that line. It was on June 7, 1969. We boarded at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and our R-1/9 train got all the way up to F# above middle C before pulling into Fulton St. That's roughly 45 mph in bull and pinion gear pitch.
How about an R46 Jamaica bound from Roosevelt to Elmhurst?
Does anyone know the speed from Prospect Ave to 9th Street on 4th ave local Manhattan bound? It probably isn't that fast, but sure feels like it. I also think 6th ave local is pretty fast considering it keeps up with the 6th ave express (when it was around) and that thing went pretty fast.
The 4 from on its full express run.
"I was enjoying the view from the newly reinstated railfan window on the 1 this morning"...
What's this you say??? What did they do, turn a single car around to face front? Or did the train operator not obstruct the little window on the cab door? Now I am being forced to start riding the 1 on a regular basis to check this phenomenon out.
joe c
Many of the cars from the #3 are now on the #1 line, as a result you are as likely to get a railfan window as not.
I have to say it is kinda sad hearing all of these low speeds as the highest speed reached.
Has the signal system in NYC been update anywhere to allow a 55 mph zone??
Last time I was there in Spring of 2000, the fastest run seemed to be the N between the last stop in Manhattan and the bridge. (Before it exited the tunnel to crawl over the bridge into Queens).
I guess despite having a much smaller system then NYC, the CTA does have speed on our side. All CTA Trains (besides the crumbing Douglas Branch of the Blue Line which is being currently rebuilt to allow a 55mph speed limit once again)generally reach 55mph between most stations. Only exceptions are a 35mph limit on the Loop and slow zones, which admitedly aren't that abundant.
Nothing in my book compares to riding the Green Line over Lake Street on a Steel Elevated Structure and hearing the train roar as it reaches and stays at 55-58mph between most stations.
Dear everyone:
May someone provide me with a quick update on the following:
a) damage to Exchange Place and WTC PATH stations, and
b) anticipated time before these stations are brought back into service (if at all).
Thank you.
i'm not sure if this is accurate, but i think there was no damage to exchange place. as for WTC, i think the Cortlandt St photoes give an accurate representations. As for service restoraton, I don' tknow
May someone provide me with a quick update on the following:
a) damage to Exchange Place and WTC PATH stations, and
b) anticipated time before these stations are brought back into service (if at all).
Exchange Place suffered some flooding but no real damage. The WTC station, according to admittedly sketchy reports, has some collapsed areas but is basically intact.
I would imagine that service won't be restored until some decision is made regarding how the WTC will be rebuilt.
The portion of the PATH WTC under the south tower suffered from the pancaking sufficiently to crush 3 of the 7 cars left in the station.
They may come down trough the westbound tube with a diesel to pull 4 cars out within the next 6 months.
They would have to drill through or blast through the concrete plugs in place in the tubes first. These were put in place to contain any flood damage that might occur due to collapse of the bathtub walls. This type of collapse would create a backflow through NJ and back into NYC thereby flooding the NYC subways also. Ouch!
Currently only the south tube, which is lower than the north tube, is plugged.
-Hank
I hope they haven't given up on pumping. The longer they are submerged, the greater the repair bill.
a) damage to Exchange Place and WTC PATH stations, and
b) anticipated time before these stations are brought back into service (if at all).
A) Exchange Pl has only water damage. WTC must have serious damage, because in order to search for victims, the Jersey City FD had to use a boat. It was reported there was 10 feet of water in the river tube. Don't know if it was flooded to the ceiling or not.
I guess when broken water mains were shut off and with extensive pumping at Exchange Pl, the water receded to make another attempt. If access to the station was by boat, that would mean that the escalator/stairways must be totally blocked. Unless anyone can dispute this.
As stated here the "bathtub" is of major concern. WTC will not open for service for years. First the "Bathtub" problem must be addressed, and the site must be cleared of what is left of the WTC. Sad reality indeed.
Bill "Newkirk"
A really well done commercial promoting New York City to potential tourists was airing on Global TV in Canada tonight.
With the "I Love NY" music in the background throughout, the commercial encourages people to "Come see New York in its finest hour", while having a diverse selection of New Yorkers, including Regis & Kelly, and Mayor Giuliani, saying "I LOVE NEW YORK".
They even briefly showed the subway!!
Let's hope that commercial achieves it's goal. I know I'd go if I could, but then that's just because I like the subway :-)
Does anyone know where I can find out about getting Metro North track maps if they are available anywhere? Also does anyone know if there is somewhere I can find out about rules and regulations books for LIRR and Metro North? (prefer newer, more up to date ones, but older books would suffice just fine) Thanx to anyone who can be able to help me out!1 :-)
Under the circumstances do you really think you should be asking for that?
I've never been able to find that info online or for that matter for free anywhere.
If you're willing to pay a modest price (I think they usually go for less than $20) I'd check E-bay periodically. I know I've seen some of that info there from time to time. Just go to them main change and do searches on "LIRR", "Long Island Railroad" and "Metro North".
CG
It depends on what you are looking for. I have some vintage LIRR and track and interlocking diagrams and the guy at SS75 gave me an old New Haven terminal diagram.
Both MNRR and LIAR have Railfan Windows. Buy yourself a ticket and a sketch pad.
Alternatevly, go to New Haven on weekend evenings after 4 and hang around SS75. If security measures haven't been tightened too much the Op might take a liking to you and invite you in. He's new to the bussiness and rather lonely. In his tower he has the whole MNRR New Haven line on various computer monitors. You might be able to copy them down.
I first noticed today two examples of misplaced IND-style captions. One is at the south exit (mezzanine level) of 181st Street on the 1. The other is at the far west end of the 7 platform at Times Square. On earlier occasions, I've noticed other IND intrusions: Columbus Circle on the 1/2 and Lorimer Street on the L come to mind. Any others?
(I'm not counting the three BMT stations initially built in IND style and recently redone in BMT style, nor am I counting stations like 59th Street on the 4/5 or the many platform extensions clearly done with IND design in mind.)
I've noticed the title "NEW YORK UNIVERSITY" on the Christopher Street station on the 1/2 and at 8th Street on the Q/W
That's very much post-IND. An interesting example nonetheless, especially as the BMT one has only just been uncovered after over two decades of obstruction.
Both Broad St. and Fulton St. on the Nassau St. line werebuilt in the IND style prior to their rehab 5-7 years ago.
I know. See my second paragraph.
So was 8th Ave. on the Canarsie line.
Are there any picutres of Broad and Fulton from when they were in the IND style?
:-) Andrew
There's one here, but it doesn't show much.
I'd love to see more. It was only in the last few years that I became cognizant of the different IND and BMT styles, and by that time it was too late.
I assume by Lorimer St you mean that sign on the wall of the eastbound ("southbound") platform pointing to the "Crosstown Line", done in a very IND style lettering.
:-) Andrew
Yes.
Is that the one you had in mind?
We've been talking about the devastation of the PATH World Trade Center station as of late. This brings up an interesting question.
The water that flooded the WTC station and tubes back to New Jersey........was it tested to see if it was fresh water or salt water ? If there is salt water is down there, that could spell big trouble.
Anyone know ?
Bill "Newkirk"
All the articles I've seen over the last 3 weeks stated that the water came from broken water mains, rain, and fire hoses. They didn't specifically state that salinity tests had been done.
>>> The water that flooded the WTC station and tubes back to New Jersey........was it tested to see if it was fresh water or salt water ? <<<
Various news reports have stated that it is fresh water from broken water mains and runoff from fire fighting. The Hudson Tubes remain intact.
Tom
Right ... corrosion would be much more extensive had it been salt water.
--Mark
Forget the corrosion. Flooding would have been much more extensive.
Doesn't matter. The fire department realized they would have a serious supply issue, and started pumping water from the Hudson into both the street mains for the hydrants and 4" hose on the street for use in firefighting. They have to pump the tunnels dry, and then inspect them to be 100% sure.
-Hank
Doesn't matter. The fire department realized they would have a serious supply issue, and started pumping water from the Hudson into both the street mains for the hydrants and 4" hose on the street for use in firefighting. They have to pump the tunnels dry, and then inspect them to be 100% sure.
Is the Hudson salty off Lower Manhattan?
Yes. All of NY Bay is salt water.
You get salty water in the Hudson all the way up to Poughkeepsie from what I have heard....the backflow effect due to the rising/falling tides.
The Hudson salinity line is in the area of the Tappan Zee. That's where the salt content of the water is low enough to qualify it as fresh.
Remember, the Hudson, East, and Harlem Rivers are actually tidal estuarys, not rivers.
-Hank
Well, the Hudson is a river, it's just that it gets so wide at the Tappan Zee that the flow coming down from the Adorondaks isn't strong enough to offset the tidal effect from the sea, and you get the backup effect. When the Hudson narrows down north of the Tappan Zee around Bear Mountain, the flow is strong enough to keep the salt water out (one of the reasons the U.S. Navy used to mothball some of the old WWI ship fleet between West Point and the Bear Mountain Bridge, after the river widens out again).
The story goes that Henry Hudson thought he'd found a transcontinental passage and when he got upstream, he tasted the water and found it was no longer salt. So much for that idea.
The East and Harlem Rivers are tidal estuaries; the Hudson really is a river - it can be charted from its source to a point some 200 miles into the Atlantic.
Sounds like what FDNY did with that old "Super Pumper" apparatus they had years ago -- use river water as it would always be plentiful.
Incidentally, part of the "Super Pumper" setup is way out here in Califonria, about an hour away from where I live!! One of the local fire apparatus buffs somehow procured it...it is not in operable condition nowadays though.
Would love to see a picture of it...is it just the pump and valve trailer, or the whole rig? The only part of the old Super-Pumper system they kept were the satalites, which are now basically hosewagons with super-Stangs. They also carry special valve gear and distribution systems, however.
The idea behind the old superpumper was to increase the water that could be put on a fire; the major drawback was that if they couldn't connect to an unlimited source, such as a river, lake, or bay, they were limited in delivery by the city water system.
-Hank
How many of them have been sunk so far?
Not many...... "few"
I believe that the program is not even halfway complete, or close to being halfway complete.
The State of Delaware (?) (I honestly have to say I forgot the state just before I typed this) has pledged a time ago to take 400 Redbird cars to dump them into the Atlantic at a depth of 80 feet. They're dumped at a rate of 20 cars/week for 20 weeks.
Of course, for this to commence, the Environmental Dept. of each state has to accept the effects of this and this state has approved it.
New Jersey has rejected them because of the asbestos in the walls, and I have heard that North Carolina has given its approval to take a fraction of the Redbirds as well.
I honestly don't know how many has been dumped overboard, but I can tell you the program runs for 20 weeks from its starting point.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
here are some redbirds for you
YEA !!!!!!!.............my favorite railfan window view !!! .......................lol!!
Hmm. This doesn't look like a mechanism which runs on 2 trucks and traction motors with squeaky doors and partially scraped paint.
I mean the Redbirds who carry floods of passengers every AM and PM rush hour and occupy 100% of the #7 line and cover the majority of the #5 line.
Also, an unanswered question:
1) Why does everybody say that R62's are PLENTIFUL on the #5 line? When a statement from another SubTalker mentioned that the #5 line has 3 R62 trains?
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
1) Why does everybody say that R62's are PLENTIFUL on the #5 line? When a statement from another SubTalker mentioned that the #5 line has 3 R62 trains?
Because this is subtalk.
From what I understand, there is 1 #5 train of R-62A's that runs one-way to Bklyn-bridge in the morning, lays-up during the midday, and then returns home in the evening rush. Plus, there are R-62A's on the #5 for OPTO.
I way at 207 yard tofay and saw a loaded bargde full of redbirds ready to go under the see.
Robert
Just the man I want to ask: What happens when the blue strip is missing from the R142 (or never placed) and the only guys who know work 'undercar' and saw the 'cross' above their heads??
I think the Redbird fleet is being reorganised....did carbody on a doity boid today....it was great.
One step fowards......you know the motto. Peter
Must be Botanical Gardens
The barge is loaded awaiting departure today, mostly with the remainder of Pelham's R36s, give or take a few remaining mainliners at Corona. Most of the cars from 9480-9557 are already "drinking in the views" so that leaves roughly 70 cars. The R26/28 classes look to be down by half from what I noted in 5 service, with exception of 7847 which was on the 2. Figure if they are missing over 100 cars from those classes, we have scrapped almost 200 cars, not a few.
I was told that they strip 4 cars per day at 207yard. Four were pulled from train 13 today and the ones on 14 were just getting started when I got there at 7:00am and were almost finshed by time I left at 4:00pm. Also they put two new one not 13 track while I was there, They usewd 7 R62 and Two flat cars to move them in. The train went BIE and they had trouble rechanging it. I was move 8 cars off 37 track when this happen.
Robert
This is crazy...we have a building full of messed up 142s....the axe is swinging at 'The Reef' and confidence-building Tuesday gets me?
AEM-7s has a lot of nicknames, like Swedish Meatballs, Mighty Mouse, etc. When I visit the Amtrak discussion board, am Amtrak employee called HHP-8s bananas, a very funny nickname.
However, he suggests that once these bananas get well enough, they will be good and durable locomotives.
Chaohwa
"Amtrak employee called HHP-8s bananas, a very funny nickname."
Bananas ? Why is that, do they have appeal ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Ow! My brain! It exploded.
Bananas ? Why is that, do they have appeal ?
Hmmm, you mean like drinking the water that drips out of a radiator will give you "esteem"?
Because an HHP-8 has a short body with long noses at both ends, that Amtrak employee called it banana.
Chaohwa
It dosen't have long noses. Ans since when does that describe a bannanna.
Has anyone seen the City Place DART station (Dallas)? I was there last week and saw the unusual device to move people there. The station is very deep, and there are three stages to get to the top from the bottom: first stage: three choices: elevator, escalator, stairs. 2nd stage: escalators, stairs, and their new gizmos on either side. Now if you are on the City Place building side, you are in the basement of the building, so you can enter the building through its elevators or take an escalator to street level. If you are on the west side of the Central Expressway, you have stairs and an elevator to get to street level.
The new gizmo is a elevator-funicular hybrid. What it is called?
I'm just back from a week in Dallas. My first flights since 9/11. I flew from Stewart Field to Dallas, via Atlanta. The return flight was Dallas, Cincinatti, Stewart. The planes were full in each flight segment. The only difference I saw at the airports is the armed National Guard presence at the security checkpoints and my picture ID was checked in addition to the ticket/boarding pass both entering the secure area and the gate.
I also got my electric streetcar fix in...operated #186 for the Thursday evening shift at MATA.
I'm just back from a week in Dallas. My first flights since 9/11. I flew from Stewart Field to Dallas, via Atlanta. The return flight
was Dallas, Cincinatti, Stewart. The planes were full in each flight segment. The only difference I saw at the airports is the armed
National Guard presence at the security checkpoints and my picture ID was checked in addition to the ticket/boarding pass both entering the secure area and the gate.
An interesting factoid: post-Sept. 11 opinion polls show that the newfound fear of flying is largely a women's thing. Polls conducted for the past few decades almost always showed that fear of flying affected men and women equally. Differences between the genders weren't statistically significant. But after the attacks, fear of flying stayed largely the same among men but nearly tripled among women. No one has any idea why.
"But after the attacks, fear of flying stayed largely the same among men but nearly tripled among women. No one has any idea why."
A co-worker of mine's theory is that the normal protective instinct of mothers is to think the worst, and imagine the most negative outcomes of a scenario rather than the most likely outcomes. (I can testify that this is the case with my own mother!) While, of course, not all women are mothers, no men are, and that may skew the numbers.
But after the attacks, fear of flying stayed largely the same among men but nearly tripled among women. No one has any idea why.
A co-worker of mine's theory is that the normal protective instinct of mothers is to think the worst, and imagine the most negative outcomes of a scenario rather than the most likely outcomes. (I can testify that this is the case with my own mother!) While, of course, not all women are mothers, no men are, and that may skew the numbers.
Sounds logical. Another idea that occurred to me is that women, might feel more helpless should a hijacking take place, being in some cases less able to resist.
An interesting factoid: post-Sept. 11 opinion polls show that the newfound fear of flying is largely a women's thing. Polls conducted for the past few decades almost always showed that fear of flying affected men and women equally. Differences between the genders weren't statistically significant. But after the attacks, fear of flying stayed largely the same among men but nearly tripled among women. No one has any idea why.
This is a general factor of trans-continental flights after the tragedy on Sept. 11. My Spanish teacher's friend was coming home on a flight from Los Angeles to Newark, and she (the friend) said she felt comfortable.
The only odd thing was: that there were only 9 people on the flight.
I know how the terrorist attacks have greatly affected Americans to fly. Following Bush's address of the encouraging of Americans to fly, I am trivially reassured. Also, I think the terrorists would have a target on hijacking airplanes with huge amounts of fuel, due to the fact that: more fuel, more combustion.
It's pretty ironic the terrorists have not hijacked international flights which may carry more fuel than transcontinental flights. There may be a definite and short answer to this but I want to know:
1) Why the terrorists haven't hijacked international flights when they most likely will carry more fuel (except planes going into Canada or Mexico.)
2) Why the terrorists had to choose trans-continental flights in the first place, other than the amount of fuel put into them.
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
It's pretty ironic the terrorists have not hijacked international flights which may carry more fuel than transcontinental flights.
There may be a definite and short answer to this but I want to know:
1) Why the terrorists haven't hijacked international flights when they most likely will carry more fuel (except planes going into Canada or Mexico.)
They wanted uncrowded flights as there'd be fewer people who might offer resistance. Hence their choice of flights on a Tuesday (usually the least-busy day of the week for air travel) shortly after Labor Day (usually the least-busy time of year for air travel). International flights generally are more crowded.
Two other possibilities:
International flights may have more experienced and larger crews, who'd be better able to deal with hijackers.
Most international flights from the East Coast leave in the evening, when there'd be far fewer people in the World Trade Center and probably the Pentagon, hence fewer victims.
2) Why the terrorists had to choose trans-continental flights in the first place, other than the amount of fuel put into them.
I'd say that reason is good enough itself.
Credible responses, and thank you for them.
I've learned a little something about international flights.
International flights require a much higher degree of screening of passengers. Presumably, someone here illegally wouldn't be able to board an European flight without a valid passport, proof that they are in the U.S. legally, and (if their passport is non-U.S.) a valid entry Visa for the destination country.
Transcontinental US flights (pre Sept. 11th) required picture I.D. only, not necessarily even a driver's license.
CG
Transcontinental US flights (pre Sept. 11th) required picture I.D. only, not necessarily even a driver's license.
Even pre-September 11th, however, it had to be government issued. My photo badge from my employer was not sufficient. I had a major hassle with this back in 1997 because my e-ticket had my New Jersey address associated with it, I carry a North Carolina driver's license, and the ticket had been paid for with my wife's credit card rather than mine. It took arguing with three levels of supervision at the ticket counter to get the ticket issued. (Northwest Airlines, NEVER AGAIN!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks like a raised platform light rail to me.
rtd denver baltamore light rail portland light rail ...??
HERE IS LOS ANGELES AT THE GRAND STATION ...............long beach blue line ....
If this is the BLUE line then why does it have YELLOW livery?
wayne
MTA Colors, they were repainted with Yellow Strips when the MTA took over from the RTD
Who else besides Denver has an RTD?
Incidentally, our light rail line uses those same yellow strips along the track to denote boarding areas. You can also find "DOOR" markings indicating where the doors will be, a la the BMT in the olden days.
The Los Angeles MTA used to be called the RTD up until around 6 years ago. I don't know of any other agency with the same letters.
Thanks. I didn't know that.
>>>You can also find "DOOR" markings indicating where the doors will be, a la the BMT in the olden days<<
FYI, they are bringing this back at some stations on the IRT, to improve passenger flow. Fulton and GCS come to mind. There are others.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Bangkok (Thailand) Skytrain also has platform markings where the doors will be.
San Jose.
P.S. If I had to guess, it's Baypointe station.
Salaam, I like this one the best, so far. I just wish the focus was a little sharper.
To our Station Agent types out there.
My Father-in-law went to add money to his reduced fare card and the Station Agent said he could not add any fare because my Father-in-law had let the card go to a zero balance. He had to wait until Novemeber when he gets his new card.
Does this explanation hold any water??
He doesn't ride the system much but rides on Staten Island where it is hard to refill the card (he was at my Kings Hwy station). He also swares he had at least $3 on the card.
Does he request and envelope and mail it in, or just wait for the new card come Nov.
That excuse doesn't wash with me. Cards can be refilled even when they have a zero balance.
We can add money to A RFM (Reduced Fare metroCard) at any time. A RFM can also have time and money. Perhaps the S/A there had computer problems.
IS the old card expired?
After he gets the new card tell him to tell the S/A:
Do a multi-card trade in-
1- insert old RFN to void the card.
2- Insert new RFM to void the new card.
3- press esc after the new card is voided.
4- TBT will prompt "transfer to new card"
5- Select NO
6- reinsert new rfm
if that does not work have him go to 370 Jay Street and theyt'll do it on the spot.
Thanks Buff!!
SubTalk participants,
I know you have your eyes peeled for subway related things.
Please help! I have just given to both Guiliani's, and
President Clinton's offices black Subway Baseball caps with an "NYC USA"
embroidery on the front. The N C and A are present supbway logos,
the S is the old black S logo. If you spot them wearing them on
the news or in the paper, please e-mail me!
I also dropped an A train shirt for Prince Andrew, and gave him a
W train shirt for his brother Prince William.
President Clinton has worn my shirts and hats in the news before.
(See nycsubwayline.com web site) But it is so easy to miss! As
specific as you can get with the info, please do, so I can get copies!
I haven't seen any of the people you mentioned wearing them, but on MTV's "The Real World", the annoying bleach-blonde haired girl wears an "A" train shirt frequently. If you watch a few episodes, you'll be sure to see it.
Yeah, I've heard that one a lot! It's even on my web site under
"Company"
I will be staying in Midtown from Ocotber 28-31 and I wondered if there will be any "Subway Fan" events going on during that time. I am planning doing some extensive railfanning on the Eastern Division, Dyre Avenue Line, Rockaway Park Branch and perhaps the M to Metropolitan Avenue.
I am also looking for any stores that might sell subway books or models. That would be other than the Transit Museum's retial outlets.
Thanks,
George Devine
San Francisco, Ca
Speaking of the Transit Museum... Make sure you catch the new exhibit on the London Underground at the store in Grand Central.
I got a sneak peek at it Sunday (they were still working on it).
It is going to be very interesting.
As far as retail stores that sell Subway books - try Barnes and Noble. Look in the NYC section. They have a reasonably nice selection, although one store may be sold out of a particular title while another may not.
The Red Caboose at 23 W. 45th Street, between Fifth and Sixth, lower level, for both books and subway models is worth checking out.
Just one thing to note. If you pay by credit card at the Red Caboose expect to have about 3% or so added to the total cost.
Really? First thing I'd do after that is call Visa, or whoever. I think merchants are allowed to give discounts for cash over the marked price but are not allowed to charge MORE than the marked price for credit purchases.
Merchant agreements prohibit charging extra for Visa/MasterCard/Amex for their use. Also Merchants are not allowed to place a minimum charge amount for credit card use (I know most do), you should be able to charge $0.05 if you want.
Report abuse to your card issuer as well as the card label (MasterCard or Visa), it is the only way to stop it.
Enforcement by VISA is very lax and it is your word against the vendors.
Violation of their credit card agreement with visa,master, etc
You're absolutely correct regarding the discounts, Dave... unfortunately, most credit card issuers only enforce it when they're having other problems with the merchant and need an excuse to revoke the merchant's privileges. The minimum purchase scenario is usually permitted by the card issuer, but as part of the merchant agreement it's pretty low - for many years I was involved with a hobby shop in North Carolina and our merchant agreement with both Visa and MasterCard permitted us to set a minimum purchase level of up to $10. We set it at $2, but never mentioned it (if a customer tried to charge less than that, we would tell them of the policy - I only remember it happening once in over ten years); the fees on a purchase much less than that would have exceeded our gross profit on the transaction.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is an article about minimum purchases on credit cards.
"Visa says its bylaws clearly state that merchants must not establish a minimum transaction amount. That's done, "To protect Visa cardholders so they can expect to use their cards anywhere, anyhow and anytime Visa is accepted," says a spokesman.
"If Visa finds out about a violation, Visa will issue an enforcement letter to the acquiring bank that enables the merchant to accept the card. It's up to the acquirer as to how to deal with the merchant."
MasterCard is also emphatic about dealing with violations although MasterCard deals with them directly."
Our contract permitted it... it's quite possible that they have changed their rules in more recent times (my direct involvement with the business ended in 1996 and my indirect involvement ended with its closure earlier this year). We looked it up in response to a challenge from a college-student customer who wanted to charge a 15 cent piece of balsa wood - the only time that I can recall anyone ever asking to charge less than $2.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was on Railroad.net. A Poster in the LIRR forum told me that LIRR started sending the Locos away this month. Anyways it is supposed to take 2 weeks for each loco and they are sending 2 at a time.
SO IF ANYONE SEES ANY AMTRAK EQUIPMENT ON LIRR U KNOW WHY!!!
also if u see it, lemme know!
Actually, it would be a LIRR engine on an Amtrak train.
No, LIRR was thinking of borrowing Amtrak units to replace DE/DM's that were sent out of fixing. Nowt that they will only send 2 at a time there is no need to borrow power from Slamtrak.
They'd be better off with Amtrak's P32AC-DMs because they perform far better than the DE/DM 30, and not to mention when they were 2 years old they didn't have steel cracks in the frame and yaw dampers like the DE/DM 30s did. I'm gonna say this, because I believe it's likely....look for the DE/DM 30 to be replaced within 10 years....trust me they suck!! They, like the 142/142A/143, and basically all new trains, are NOT BUILT TO LAST!! A senior track worker I know at the LI tells me they are heavy, are stressing out bridge structures because of their weight, and causing all kinds of track wear. They are all looks for the LI, not in any way a good product!! LIRR would have been better ordering the P32AC-DM (like Metro Noth did) instead of the DE/DM 30
Yes, but at that time, they did not due to its very slow acceleration. But if anyone wants to know what the Gennies would look like if the LIRR orders them, I got an Athearn model and painted one in LIRR colors. PS if the LIRR wants to purchase them they can ask me for advise on their paint scheme.
If you have a picture of it please send it to this addy:
TrainMan2712@aol.com or NYCTransitsBest@msn.com
I don't have one yet, but I will soon, and once I can scan it, you will be the one of the few who ask for it.
Neil Feldman
NNEILEF@AOL.COM
I think the Gennies would be a much better performer than the DE/M 30s. In regard to what I said about bridge stressing and track wear caused by the DE/M, notice how now on the lines primarily where DE/Ms run are the lines you see now being worked on in all these track maintenance G.O.s the LIRR is doing (i.e. Sperry Testing on the Oyster Bay, new tracks Huntington to Port Jeff, building new river bridges on the Montauk a year or two ago.....funny how the lines where these works are undertaken occur on the lines widely used by the DE/M 30s. Tracks and structures on these lines were able to hold up to the Pullmans Standards and the GP38-2/FA-1 @ FA-2/MP15AC trains. The DE/DM class locomotives are all looks, but their operational attributes are non-existant, which is typical of new trains.....NOT BUILT TO LAST!! I would put a GP38-2 up against a DE or DM anytime, and operationally the GP38-2 would win everytime!! (what I hear the DE/DM class max at 85....GP38-2s always maxxed at 90!! Who's the better piece of equipment!) And GP38s never had a problem with steel cracks only two years after they were built and first run!!
A Gp-38 doin' 90?? No way, their MAS is and always was 65 MPH for passenger trains only. NYA runs Gp-38's at 45 MPH for freight.
Regardless, the engineers knew how to cut out the MAS and governors and do 90MPH. They did that with the Port Jeff job that arrived Hunterspoint at 7:40am between Hicksville and Mineola in the early-1980's, before they got event-recorders. That train would often arrive and leave Jamaica 5-6 minutes early.
I think the gear ratio would keep the speed down a bit, but the LIRR has the track to run the GP38-2 at 90MPH.
For that I blame not only the LIRR, but the MTA for allowing the LIRR to go off on their own and design a unique engine. Of course, they seem to have the Nassau and Suffolk County Republican machinery wrapped around their finger don't matter what they do. Metro-North makes do with run-on Amtrak and NJT orders for engines and coaches, and has 97% OTP to show for it.
The Amtrak Genesis dual-modes aren't so terrific either though. Amtrak sent 3 to GE to have prime movers replaced. The regular Genesis are all too often dieing on the road.
Yeah those things are heavy. While waiting at Mineola one goes by at full speed (not stopping) and it feels like an earthquake.
You misunderstood me. Amtrak is conveying the engines to Chicago on their way to Paducah. There was never any chance of F40's running on the LIRR. They cannot clear Jamaica Station. 2 of the 4 engines that were rumored to come to LI have gone to Alaska.
you won't seem amtrak units on LI. they have 40+ of them clunkers, and i think they use about 8 of them at the most. Nevermind kentucky, we ought to drop them as dumby bombs on afganistan.
Not sure who to be unhappy with about the removal of the WMATA track map - the nycsubway.org web site operators for their compliance or the WMATA Police for asking. But either way, bummer.
Not really seeking to start a flame war here, I can certainly understand why the police would want them removed, and can understand how the site operators just don't have the time to stand up for their rights on this one, but it kinda sucks nonetheless. I just figured posting here was the least offensive way to express some displeasure with this action.
Not like any terrorists planning to take action against WMATA likely don't already have a copy of the map anyhow.
Ah well... just wish I'd had the forsight to grab a copy for myself, but I was naive enough to figure it'd be online forever, so why bother?
Look back at this post for a link to the map.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have it on my site at www.orenstransitpage.com. Once at Grand Central, click Washington, DC on the Departure Board, then scroll down to Track Map. It is at the bottom.
Aren't you insulted that you didn't get an e-mail like Dave?
Or did you?
They probably don't know he has it (but they might now).
Can't find it. Did you delete it too?
this AM, like every Monday AM, i worked Brooklyn bridge. The emergency intercome rang. I got a call from people who were trapped in an elevator. I immediately told them I'd cll for help and hit the EBCS. While speaking to the supervisor a customer wanted tokens. I told him he had to wait- I had an emergency with people stuck in an elevator and he did not want to wait. I did buzz him in (Supervisors usually allow this) and he did not enter and finally left.
Police and supervisor come and the call was a hoax! I also had Elevator/Escalator Section come and told them the call was fake.
Please- do not think it is cute to place fake emergency calls. We must deal with all calls as legit. If your call isa fake then you may be keeping asistance away from genuine emergency calls.
Camera resolution was typically poor so I could not identify who placed the call.
I remind all subtalkers- false emergency calls will be prosecuted by NYPD when we find you! (I am not saying a subtalker placed the bogus call- I dont know who called.)
Crazy stuff has been happening. On Saturday someone left behind a Shopping cart with a big black bag on my train at 242 Street.
Then today 191 Street was closed for 3 Hours because of a Police Investigation. Both these cases where false alarms but this stuff is really getting scary. This is getting to close for me. I'm even thinking about resigning now.
DON'T resign. Just consider another option within the C/R title such as construction flagging, handswitching or dedicated announcer. No need to throw your career away.
Your right! I had a chance to think things over and I will stay on the job. I'm almost done with probation no need to throw it away now.
Lemme say this if something is gonna happen, SOMETHING IS GONNA HAPPEN, whether or not you're a conductor....things can happen while you are driving, taking a train home, walking in the city, anywhere!!Don't give up your career just because of stupid stuff like that....DONT' GIVE THESE BASTARDS OVERSEAS THE LUXURY OF THINKING YOU ARE ONE OF MANY PEOPLE THEY SUCCEEDED IN MAKING PARANOID AND FEARFUL!!
As ZMan mentioned, go for construction flagging, hand switching or dedicated announcer. Me no one or nothing is ever, and I do mean EVER, gonna keep me from being on the road. As long as someone up above is looking out for me and my awareness on the road is peaked, then I know I will be ok. Stay in the job, man....don't let these losers overseas make basic things like a career in public service a fearful and paranoid obstacle in your life :-)
What your saying is very true. I'm going to stay with it and I think I may just stay on the road where I belong. I can't let the recent events stop me for a career I always wanted to do and enjoy. Thanks for your post
Amen. Love my new job too. C/I Peter
I've never seen the truck, it's apparattus or high velocity water jets. But while yesterday at Mineola station, and today by the Great Neck one I saw men in white suits and a yellow truck saying LIRR cleaning service using a high powered spray on all the stations. I suppose I've just never seen them before, but maybe this has to do with all the Anthrax worries going on. NBC, Florida, now the Capitol, I wonder what's next. Any mail that you are not expecting should be disposed of immediately, that is exactly what I'm doing.
it's like email - if you're not expecting it, toss it. with email it's either junk or a virus... these days the regular mail is eitehr junk or anthrax... or a bill... all of which can go in the trash =)
i wonder if people will shower more now that some think anthrax is just blowing around... if only we could be so lucky... (people showering more...) =)
sadly...what you said is right...it's either junk, anthrax, or a bill...just seems like the USPS delivers the mail you're dreading the most(no offense to anyone)
They've been around for years, you've probably seen them but just never noticed them before.
CG
The Ottawa light rail, now known to the public as the "O-Train", opened to much fanfare at 2:00pm today. There was an opening ceremony including speeches by the mayor, the head of OC Transpo, several city councillors, and the federal MP for Ottawa-Centre.
The Bombardier Talent trains left Carleton University station at about 2:40pm in both directions. I was the first one on board the Bayview bound train!!!!!! The first trains were really packed, and there were many railfans snapping pictures from overpasses and at stations. For those of you who like railfan windows, you'd love these trains... the T/O cab is separated from the passengers only by a glass window and door. You can see right into the cab and out the front window, as well as all the controls.
The ride is very smooth, with some rocking now and then, probably mostly due to the track, being that it shares this line with freight trains. They average about 60 km/h throughout most of the line, although the trains are capable of up to 120 km/h. They slow down considerably going over a couple of at grade diamond crossings in the south portion of the line, but speed right back up immediately after crossing.
And they are very comfortable trains. Complete with high back seats!!! I don't think the city will have any problem attracting riders from their cars onto the train.
As for the stations, they are of a simple design, just a couple of shelters and benches. They will likely be made more elaborate in the future when they start expanding the system. There are gap-fillers at every station, which are left down when the light rail is running (6:00am to midnight), and pulled up during closing hours so the freight trains can get by.
So anyone who wants to ride some brand new Talent trains without having to go all the way to Europe, you can come on over to Ottawa and try them out!!
I would like to ride the Talent trains. I first learned about them in late 1996 when I saw the prototype pictures on The European Railway Server website. It really is a great looking train. I'm glad to hear its ride and comfort are as good as it looks. I hope transit agencies here in the states consider the Talent for use in light rail service.
Thank you for sharing what happened today. That great and interesting city's return to street rail transportation is the result of pressures that started long before the older system was abandoned against the will of Ottawa's residents. It's a pretty and functional city, and you took us there with you for the first ride. Many thanks!
i plan to leave grand central terminal by the MNR Hudson Line on Sat by 2:00 in the afternoon, i'm curious if anyone knows what time the open house at the Croton-Harnmon shops run until. I hope somebody knows.
Thanx.
11 to 3
"Upcoming Events"
If you leave 0n the 154 exp, you will get there 243, just in time to see it close
Anyone know why they stopped the Brighton Skip-Stop??
Because they run the brighton express (that was self-explanatory)
nm...imeant why they favored express over skip-stop??
Skip-stop was a temporary measure that was instituted in the mid-1980s when the Brighton Line's local tracks were being reconstructed (service operated via the express tracks, with temporary wooden platforms at the local stations over the local tracks). It was never meant to be a permanent fixture on the line.
David
As is the case with any line that has express tracks. Again, that's self-explanatory)
Isn't the advantage of an active 4-track express and local service vs. an active 2-track skip-stop obvious? The skip-stop instituted for 9-10 months in 1964 and again in the 1980s were temporary to allow for major repairs and reconstruction.
When, in your opinions, was the WORST era for the Subway? You know... the times in which women were too afraid to ride it? Late 70's? Thanx! I appreciate it!
P.S. They've cleared 1/4 of the WTC wreckage already! Pretty impressive... I thought it would take much longer.
They've cleared 1/4 of the WTC wreckage already! Pretty impressive... I thought it would take much longer.
1. The debris they're clearing now is above the ground. Much, much easier to get rid of.
2. I heard yesterday that almost 80% of the rubble was still remaining. So, inbetween yetesterday morning and tonight, they've removed 5%?!?! THAT would be impressive!
well, let's see...the time when everyone was afraid to ride it...but 1/4!! that's only 34 days! Now how bout an estimate on when they're going to reopen the southern portion of the BMT broadway(City Hall - Whitehall)
It will reopen when the mayor and his office of emergency management give the ok. Ask them!
When, in your opinions, was the WORST era for the Subway? You know... the times in which women were too afraid to ride it? Late 70's? Thanx! I appreciate it!
Late 1970's to early 1980's is about right. A case also might be made for the very early 1990's. The subway was physically in much better shape than it had been a decade earlier, but crime was very high.
(The early 1990s. The subway was physically in much better shape than it had been a decade earlier, but crime was very high.)
Crime on the street was high in the 1990s, but crime on the subway was not, as the TA Police adopted innovative strategies and cut crime before the NYPD.
There was the perception in the early nineties that crime was very high on the streets and in the subway. This was fostered by the murder of Ute tourist Brian Watkins on the 7th Avenue/53rd platform Labor Day weekend. A bunch of local youth stabbed him and took his money to spend at Roseland.
This episode brought forth rants and raves from the media that New York City was out of control and in an eternal downward spiral. Because the crime happened in the subway system and a tourist was the victim didn't help.
Not to downplay the tragedy the Watkins family absorbed, but it seems that the random murder of a native New Yorker hardly merits any notice at all. However, when a tourist or someone, preferable young and female, who recently moved to the city from elsewhere is victim of a violent crime (Amy Watkins, Nicole Barrett), it's the aforementioned rants and raves, plus the mayor and police commissioner conducting press conferences in which they vow to catch the perpetrator because "this kind of crime makes New York look bad."
None of this happened when, last year, postal worker Louis Nixon was murdered riding the subway from this Brooklyn home to his Manhattan job in the middle of the night. The coverage lasted maybe two days.
By the nineties, the subway system HAD improved dramatically, with the eradication of graffiti, new rolling stock and increasing levels of station renovations. The low point was probably from about 1977 (when severe budget deficits led to cuts in service and maintenance) through 1984 (when the R62s premiered and older rolling stock started getting overhauled).
The constant breakdowns and derailments, graffiti, inconsistent air-conditioning and other decay that defined the system from 1977-84 would be absolutely shocking to anyone who's only ridden it during the last decade.
I'd probably push the start of the Dark Ages back a few years, to around 1973 when the graffiti epidemic really got rolling (no pun intended), though the arrival of the R-46s in 1976 was a step up, though a small one until they got the Rockwell truck problem fixed.
The only positive thing about the 1977-84 era was the air-conditioning retrofits on the R-26 through R-36 IRT cars, and at least at the outset, some of those units weren't very reliable when first installed.
Was anyone else at the opening of the show today?
I think it's a good exhibit! Catch the video at the rear, with
it's touch screen.
Haven't ever been to England, but love the history of the underground,
particularly the WWII part.
England must be the only city whose subway system has been even more important to them than ours has been to us in NYC.
Did you know that unfinished subway tunnels became munitions factories during that war?
Here's info on the London Underground exhibit at the Transit Museum Store at GCT :
Moving London 1901-2001
Is it open on the weekend?
The London Underground has a vast and extremely interesting history behind it.
Like when during World War II. the underground tube stations became sleeping shelters for people and overnight refreshment trains would operate between the stations selling food/drinks and items that you'd find in a convenience store (diapers, etc).
I believe that you would find more information on this subject and others at www.ltmuseum.co.uk or at www.thetube.com
Why is one of the tracks diconnected from before 4th Avenue turn to Kings Highway? Are they redoing the tracks or something?
3 track (s/b exp track) is permanently out of service from the portal to south of Bay Pkwy. 4 track (n/b exp) has midday track work being performed on it.
Hey Z-Man.......don't forget it is another test track for the R-143 (I was out at my girl's cousin house on Fort Hamilton Pkwy, and watched it do several run-bys on E4) By the way what is the purpose of E3 because all it is is useless track. Might as well remove it.
E3 track has the same purpose as F3, F4 tracks at Aqueduct/N.Conduit. That is.......no purpose.
I know that they were testing the 143's on E4 (it's now out on the road for schooling crews), but they have been doing some work on that track during the midday hours around Kings Hwy as well as some overpass work.
Last summer the TA was doing work on the Sea Beach. Trains ran on the
Manhattan bound express track, by passing all stations to C.I. But at Kings Hwy, I believe it was, they switched the trains to the CI bound express track.
Pardon me, my correction here. In my earlier post I mentioned shooting the R143 at 20th Ave; I meant Ave. U!
Joe C
Just another reason to Piss off Slow Beach Fred
It is cheaper to keep it there then to tear it up. It is not in the way of anything.
Robert
Do they plan to reconnect it or anything? Why did they disconnect it in the frist place?
The unveiling of the new exhibit "Britain in NY, Side by Side" was at GCT's gift shop today. And it is quite a display! Models of old and new "tube" car stock, bus models and the usual display boards of factual photos, drawings and lots of other interesting stuff. AND the gifts themselves are terrific. Shirts, toy double deck buses (E.F.E.),pins, mouse pads. And books! I bought three terrific books and will be eating peanut butter for a month; but well worth it.
Check it out; it runs to the 28th of Oct.
Joe C
In a previous post, you mentioned that you are semi-retired. Come on, can't you afford jelly with that peanut butter? You probably ride the Bx12 with white shoes and plaid trousers, carrying your golf clubs to Pelham Bay Golf Course over one shoulder, and your camera for photographing artics on the other.
Don't forget the floral print shirt. And dem trousers are banlon!
joe c
Contrary to what Joe C. writes above the exhibit at the TM store will run to January 19, 2002.
See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/museum/whatsnew.htm
It is the "Britain in NY, Side by Side" exhibition the Terminal itself that runs to 10/28/01.
Joe, it sounds like you were never at the TM store at GCT before.
BTW - add some jelly to the peanut butter (or marshmallow fluff - if they still make that stuff).
I was there today. A very impressive exhibit. Sure learned alot of new stuff about the London Underground system. I like the logo and their stations seem to look a bit nicer than those on the NYCS. Perhaps because the whole system is bored not cut and cover and I always like the way deep level stations look better (an exception-53rd and Lex). They had some interactive videos too. The system seems to have a much more commercial feel to it, their stations look like store entrances. That must be a nice system to ride. Still there were no new NYCS maps yet, in fact there were none at all. The LIRR and NYC Subway calenders are out and I will get them soon.
Are they this time of year ?
Yes they are, HERE are the hours.(scroll to bottom)
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm willfully going to take the PSAT's tomorrow. Wish me luck!
Railfan Pete.
Same here, tomorrow I take it, I hope I pull of the impossible. I never studied for it, and never took tutoring, I wanna see where I stand without help against the rest of the World, then I will study hard for the SAT.
Wish you luck
Both of you good luck.
Dude, my SAT prep course was sub-par at best and I got a 1270 (love to flaunt my 700 verbal). My PSAT was 1170. My school was a college-prep course so everyone took the PSAT';s at the same time, like it or not and when it came time for the SAT's, the advisors stayed on us like lice.
That's one of the things I don't miss about high school. I hated junior year. I never wanted senior year to end.
Good luck to both of you. Remember it counts for just this side of nothing. I remember back in High School I screwed it up royally--I didn't realize that I was marking the answer sheet with the answers to the wrong questions---and had been doing so for half of the test! I fixed it in time, but then didn't get to finnish the test.
But it turned out, it's meaningless. Now the SAT does count, but believe me it's not as important in the long run as you might think.
jeez I hate standardized tests.
:-) Andrew
You know, you could have finished and requested a review based on your error. It may even have been something they'd catch. Their computer scoring system catches patterns as such, designed to find people who cheat.
-Hank
Good luck! But it's not that hard...i took the SAT's last year - it was easy...everyone says the PSAT's are harder, sorry, but i don't know by how much...
I thought those things were given on Saturdays
When I took them (3 years ago) you could take them either on Saturday or Tuesday.
I've never taken an exam on Saturday. Well, maybe at night, but I can't think of any Saturday night exams.
I thought those things were given on Saturdays
The SAT's are administered at a designated place outside of the school building and district on a certain Saturday morning.
The duration of the test is 3 hours (pretty much the same for PSAT). The PSAT's provide a "preview" of the SAT's that students are required to take in 11th grade (the real one, not the ones you may take in 7th grade and such) to be administered into college.
In fact, the SAT's are only overlooked to a mere 1/3 of the "college pie", while your GPA counts more, 2/3.
Academics only count for 50% for college acceptance and review. The other half is labeled "CO-CURRICULARS", or non-academic credentials you may gain from joining clubs and receiving honorable mention.
I took the PSAT's today without taking any prep-course or much study. I really think I can do better after hours of prep-course and study.
: |
Railfan Pete.
(P.S.: I have 2 more chances to take the PSAT at my school. 10th and 11th grade, before the real test. )
If you take the SATs in 7th grade, those are the "real" SATs--identical to the ones juniors and seniors are taking that day. When you take the PSATs in 11th grade, you can qualify for a number of merit-based scholarships if you score well.
Students are not required to take the SATs, especially if they aren't going to go to college. Even if they are, they can take another test, the ACT, which is different than the SATs and not common at all in the Northeast, though most schools should accept them.
Moreover, there is absolutely no way of quantifying exactly what combination of factors gains you admission to college. Different colleges have different requirements and look for different people with different skills and from different places. Thus, they judge different people differently. Different high schools measure their students' abilities differently--grading is not standard across the world or even the country, meaning you can't talk about GPAs (there are even schools that don't give "grades").
But I hope the test went well today for you, and don't worry about any of this too much anyhow. You're a freshman in high school--give yourself at least a year to worry about college and try to enjoy high school as much as you can!
Seth
But I hope the test went well today for you, and don't worry about any of this too much anyhow. You're a freshman in high school--give yourself at least a year to
worry about college and try to enjoy high school as much as you can!
Thanks for your support! By the way, I have two more chances for the PSAT's and I hope to learn a lot from prep-courses over this time.
Railfan Pete.
You can request a Sunday test date for the SAT.
-Hank
They did it at my school today, too.
WHAT IS THIS!?!?!? WHAT DOES THE PSAT HAVE TO DO WITH RAIL TRANSIT ISSUES?!?!? WHY ARE YOU POSTING THIS HERE IF IT'S NOT REGARDING TRANIST TOPICS?!?!?
(I take them next saturday)
WHAT IS THIS!?!?!? WHAT DOES THE PSAT HAVE TO DO WITH RAIL TRANSIT ISSUES?!?!? WHY ARE YOU POSTING THIS HERE IF IT'S
NOT REGARDING TRANIST TOPICS?!?!?
Oh, I didn't know you were the new webmaster police of this site and warning people of such things.
I wouldn't be surprised because I didn't see you bejerking off the off-topic post titled "TV Reception".
Good luck to you next Saturday.
Railfan Pete.
Pete,
A few weeks ago you complained about off-topic post. Since that time you have.
A. Posted bigoted off topic rantings about Muslims
B. Gone on and on about how you plan on leaving subtalk (yet you keep coming back)
C. Gotten into flame wars with many subtalkers and pissed everyone off
A think J train was just pointing out how stupid your rantings are.
BTW taking the PSAT three times is a waste of money.
"Pete,
A few weeks ago you complained about off-topic post. Since that time you have.
A. Posted bigoted off topic rantings about Muslims"
So it isn't bigoted when the Koran motivates Muslims to kill non Muslims, but it is bigoted to mention this fact?
"C. Gotten into flame wars with many subtalkers and pissed everyone off"
The flames have come from people who disagree with Pete but don't have the ability to rationally counter his points.
"...how stupid your rantings are."
See what I mean about where flames come from?
while I have not read the entire Qu'ran, I'm pretty sure it does NOT allow for Muslims to kill non-Muslims. Anything to the contrary, please respond via email.
There are some parts of the Qu'ran that can be read that way. There are also parts of the Bible that ndorse slavery and killing in the name of relgion.
There are also parts of the Bible that ndorse slavery and killing in the name of relgion.
Nowhere in the Bible mentions killing. Observe one of the Ten Commandments, which we are to follow. (Noted in the book of Exodus Chapter 20)
"Thou shalt not kill."
This excludes killing in wars mentioned in the Bible. (Be careful in handling this Truth as this does NOT mention killing for God or nonbelievers)
Since I'm pressed for time, that's all for now.
Railfan Pete.
Then how do you explain the crusades the mass killing of Native Americans and Australians the holocaust the killing of women and children in south Lebanon in 1983. Furthermore the bible calls on death for adultery or having other god's. That last one could be interpreted to mean the killing of all non-believers.
The Bible is not teaching "if you know or see a nonbeliever, make plans to kill him or her."
Just because someone or a group of people believe in god or God, doesn't mean they believe in the God of the Bible, and Allah is NOT the God of the Bible. Those terrorists had extremist backgrounds and beliefs.
We Fundamental Independent Baptist Christians know this "extremist" and its false teachings and its corruption of truth. See how the community faces consequences for believing in the wrong spirit!
Pressed for time now.
Railfan Pete.
[The Bible is not teaching "if you know or see a nonbeliever, make plans to kill him or her."]
I'm sure that if I had the time I could find 8-10 passages where it did just as people have done with the Qu'ran but I don't have the time. (I bet 80% of Muslims don't even know about the passages that Hate-mongers are quoting.)
[Those terrorists had extremist backgrounds and beliefs.]
Duh
[We Fundamental Independent Baptist Christians know this "extremist"]
Fundamental Independent Baptist Christians shouldn't be complaining about any one else being "extremist".
One more thing railfan Pete since you're a Christian you must believe that slavery is a good thing it's in the Bible.
And Pete you must believe all this to.
In I Samuel 15:3 God order the believers to kill all Amalek
people including women, children, babies, and livestock animals
(who know nothing), without mercy.
You may not remarry ex-wives (Deut. 24:4)
Brother's must impregnate childless sisters-in-law (Deut. 25:5)
No crotch squeazing when fighting (Deut. 25:11)
No cooking on Saturdays (Ex. 16:23)
No going out on Saturdays (Ex. 16:29)
Death penalty for cursing parents (Ex. 21:17)
Death to witches (Ex. 22:18) [A religious group.]
Charge no interest on loans (Ex. 22:25)
Death to all doing any work on Saturdays (Ex. 31:15)
Don't eat pork (Lev. 11:7)
Don't eat crab/lobster (Lev. 11:10)
Wet dreams make you unclean (Lev. 15:16)
Menstruation makes you unclean (Lev. 15:19)
Employees must be paid daily (Lev. 19:13)
Don't cross-breed animals (Lev. 19:19)
Don't wear fabrics mixed of linen and wool (Lev. 19:19)
Don't eat rare meat (Lev. 19:26)
Don't shave (Lev. 19:27)
No tattoos (Lev. 19:28)
Give immigrants the same rights as citizens (Lev. 19:34)
Adulterers must be killed (Lev. 20:10)
Kill psychics (Lev. 20:27)
Pastors may not marry divorced women (Lev. 21:14)
Boys are more valuable than girls (Lev. 27:3)
Kill people who gather wood on Saturdays (Num. 15:33)
Husbands can void contracts made by wives (Num. 30:10)
God orders genocide, baby-killing (Deut. 20:16)
Kill rebellious children (Deut. 21:18)
Women may not wear pants (Deut. 22:5)
Illegitimate children may not enter holy places (Deut. 23:2)
There are some parts of the Qu'ran that can be read that way. There are also parts of the Bible that endorse slavery and killing in the name of religion.
With all the nuts here (people promising to give terrorists information to help them plan attacks, etc.) I'd rather not make my e-mail address known. So, once again, I'll post the quotes here. Now of course, there are those who, having ignored the points made in my previous posts, will claim that our Bible has the same kind of statements. That is not true. There is a big difference. The Bible will urge death on peoples due to their acts: child sacrifice; attacking defenseless women and children etc. Nowhere in the Bible are there calls to kill people merely due to their beliefs like there are in the Koran. Have a look at where the hatred of all non-Muslims comes from:
(You might want to save this note. Previous posts that portray Islam truthfully have disappeared).
"The Curse of Allah is on those without faith (in Islam). Thus have they drawn wrath upon wrath on themselves and humiliating is the punishment of those who reject faith (Islam)." (Sura 2:89-90).
"Cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads. Strike off even the tips of their fingers!" (Sura 8:12).
"Verily, the infidels are your undoubted enemies!" (Sura 4:102).
"Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your
neighbors, and let them find you rigorous." (Sura 9:124).
"Give not way therefore to the Infidels, but by means of this Koran strive against them with a mighty strife." (Sura 25:54).
"Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty." (Sura 58:5).
"Those who reject faith (Islam) and belie our signs. They shall be
Companions of the Fire and abide in it." (Sura 2:39).
"The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is: Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land." (Sura 5:33).
"If you do not fight, He Allah will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Sura 9:39)'.
"The curse of God on the infidels!" (Sura 2:83).
"Fighting is obligatory for you Muslims." (Sura 2:216).
"Let not believers take infidels for their friends rather than
believers: whoso shall do this has nothing to hope from God." (Sura 3:27).
"And if you shall be slain or die on the path of God, then pardon from God and mercy is better than all your amassings; For if you die or be slain, verily unto God shall you be gathered." (Sura 3:151,2).
A. Posted bigoted off topic rantings about Muslims
Um, no. If you haven't lost your brain cells yet, recall that I did NOT post ANYTHING about Muslims.
B. Gone on and on about how you plan on leaving subtalk (yet you keep coming back)
I have no definite plan to leave SubTalk. I just said that as I have more and more work to do I won't have time to meddle with minor things here. Also, it depends on my availability to the computer.
C. Gotten into flame wars with many subtalkers and pissed everyone off
Oh, excuse me for being a kid. I didn't know you knew so much about the subway as you do now when YOU were 14 years old. No examples?
A think J train was just pointing out how stupid your rantings are.
I wouldn't be surprised if I posted the EXACT message on "TV RECEPTION" and see how Jtrainloco would react to it.
BTW taking the PSAT three times is a waste of money.
The PSAT's are free for our school's students being tested on school grounds in their buildings. It's the private or requested testing that requires some payment and for the SAT's.
Railfan Pete.
"Um, no. If you haven't lost your brain cells yet, recall that I did NOT post ANYTHING about Muslims."
Yes you have and I saved several of the post to prove it.
"Oh, excuse me for being a kid. I didn't know you knew so much about the subway as you do now when YOU were 14 years
old. No examples?"
The problem is you act like you know a lot about everything when you don't for example you acted like you know more about the subway than train dude (who knows more about the subway than 99.99% of people in the world).
"I wouldn't be surprised if I posted the EXACT message on "TV RECEPTION" and see how Jtrainloco would react to it."
Right because you started a flame war complaining about post about kosher delis and proved your self to be anti-Semitic in the process.
"The PSAT's are free for our school's students being tested on school grounds in their buildings. It's the private or requested
testing that requires some payment and for the SAT's."
Somebody's paying the people who run those things don't do it for free.
The problem is you act like you know a lot about everything when you don't for example you acted like you know more about the subway than train dude
Um, where did I ever say that I was smarter than Train Dude? Even acted smarter THAN him???? What is your conception about this? I have posted REPEATEDLY that I have learned a lot of things from TD's posts and I thanked him for it.
(who
knows more about the subway than 99.99% of people in the world).
Do you think that about TD? I have gotten a notion that TD has attended an extensive college or school where experienced professors and rail yard workers have taught him real well. There are many many rail yard workers out in the world, and with more experience and knowledge of the yards than TD. And of course, the whole world doesn't know about NYCT, as it is only a minor fraction of the geography of the world.
As much as fascinating it is to fix appliances and fixtures on the train, I would not want to be one when I grow up. Industrial workers are "at the bottom of the social level" of NYCT, and of ANY rail co. in the world. It is the Board Chairman, Vice President, President, and office workers who make the difference and give orders to people like TD to fix and modify whatever is needed to run the system properly.
TD would be the real "hero", but don't you see the picture?
(And don't say "No" like an immature person, please.)
Railfan Pete.
"It is the Board Chairman, Vice
President, President, and office workers who make the difference and give orders to people like TD to fix and modify
whatever is needed to run the system properly."
Train Dude is field management. Field management are the most important people in any system. Most of the office workers are just political hack whose only qualifications are knowing someone in office. It is people in field management who know about the subway they are the ones who make many of the calls not some hack sitting in and office on Jay street playing on his computer surfing the web.
"(And don't say "No" like an immature person, please.)"
So anyone who has the nerve to disagree with you is immature or is the devil making me do it again.
You are soooo deluded it boogles the mind.
Peace,
ANDEE
The PSAT is a waste of time and money better spent taking the SAT twice. You can combine your best scores from multiple tests, and reduce your study load so that you concentrate on the verbal one month and the math the next. If only I had studied, I would have done better than 1200...
-Hank
Gee, I never studied for the SATs. The first time I got a 1480, the second a 1530. And that was back in '79, before the mid-'80s dumb-down.
There's no such thing as a dumb-down, because the score is based on a scale. Your score is how you compare with other high school students.
ETS has admitted that the SAT was dumbed-down in the late '80s after people showed a disproportionate increase in scores. Other organizations have also noted this - MENSA no longer accepts scores on SATs taken after 1993 as being proof of qualification for membership.
I was in Chicago yesterday and met up with David Cole. He showed me around the city and we rode the all of the Orange and Brown lines, and some of the Blue line. David really knows a lot about the city and he did a good job of making me like it. The L is really unique, I think my favorite part was the two abandoned tracks on the Brown line than run for a while. Hey, David, I got thru check-in and security in less than 15 minutes, so I went to Terminal 1. That terminal and Concourse C are really cool. To me, the same thought process that came up with the Jubilee extension also had a part in Terminal 1, the underground walkway is also cool.
I told you David was cool.
Eric D. Smith
Yup, but as cool as you. :)
Glad you had a good time, and glad you were able to see the "reincarnation tunnel" at Terminal 1. Terminal 1 is an all-around excellent example of what transit architecture should strive to be, and that tunnel is icing on the cake. Hopefully the new terminals at O'Hare -- whenever they get built -- will live up to that precedent. Terminal 5 is another good one, although not quite as dramatic is Terminal 1.
By the way, thanks for the pizza... I owe you one. Smart of you not to invoke another New York vs. Chicago flame war by not mentioning how obviously superior our deep-dish pizza is. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Trivia question:
Where can one find -- today -- a subway sign with these four bullets (and none other)? Colors and shapes are the usual.
The 63rd Drive Station on the Queens Boulevard Line, the one that is right next to The WIZ. It doesnt look like a usual subway station, kind of goes downstairs as if one were going into a store. Is that right????
If it is, then there are two answers to my question.
This isn't the one I had in mind, but it is quite interesting. Except at night, I didn't know the E and F ever stopped there.
During midnight hours, both the E and F make all local stops. Its been that way for close to two years.
I know. But station entrance signs don't indicate night service anywhere else.
But station entrance signs don't indicate night service anywhere else.
I don't think this is true. If I remember correctly, the local stations along Fulton St. are served by the A late nights only, and I believe they all say (A) (C).
Ferdinand Cesarano
They used to be served by the A at all times except 6 AM to 10 PM weekdays.
And on the 1 line it still has the 4 sign from Nevins street to New Lots Avenue.
Weekend service until a few years ago.
None of the stops bypassed by the A in Manhattan have A bullets. Unless they've been updated in the past month, none of the West Side IRT local stations have 2 bullets. None of the East Side IRT local stations have 4 bullets. None of the (other) Queens local stations have E or F bullets. Etc. Staircase signage never (with, perhaps, a very few exceptions) indicates night service patterns.
The downtown 6 stop at astor also lists the 4 in front of the Starbucks.
You can find the sign at the Union Tpke. station. It is located at the closed entrance on the southbound side of the Interboro Pkwy. You can see it from the 24 hour entrance on the northbound roadway.
Got it. (I've tried twice to get pictures, but it's a tough shot -- it's dark, there are two chain-link fences in the way, and traffic zooms by on eight lanes. The first attempt failed miserably; I'm still waiting to see the results of the second.)
Only about a year passed between when the GG became the G and when the N and R swapped north terminals.
What were the service patterns of the four routes? Why was the entrance closed? Is there still other evidence of the closed entrance (in the station or on the street)? When were the ugly chain-link fences put up?
>>>>>>>>What were the service patterns of the four routes?
The E/F went to 179, and the GG/N went to Continental Av.
According to one of the old signs that hovered above the tracks on the platform (they're gone now, this was about 15 years ago), the E and F were to continue to 179, and the G/N were to go to Jamaica Center. There was to be a G late night shuttle train from Van Wyck Blvd to Jamaica Center (This is what the sign actually said at Van Wyck Blvd underneath the black sticker covering. Whether they actually had plans to implement this scheme, I do not know.)
Interesting services that would have been. By the way the TA at some point must have had further plans for new routes into & out of Manhattan, because if you go over the Manhattan Bridge northbound, about half way between the bridge and Canal Street, there are ballasted trackways (tunnels there in the trackways are fully lit) and tunnel bellmouths, and there are two others on the southbound tracks in the same location. Tell me Z-Man what was the plans for those if you know (and if you haven't seen 'em look for them next time you ever get a W or Q job....halfway between Canal Street and the Bridge, both north and southbound sides)
The tracks on the 6th Av side of the Bridge used to be the Nassau St flyover that went into Chambers St on the J/M. On the Broadway side, it was to be for another line that was never built. A few of the guys here can go in depth in regards to the Broadway side.
I wish sometime I could take my vest, take a little trackwalk and see how far them tunnels go, but with all the security issues around, I better put that on hold for a very long time. Also wouldn't mind being able to go down and see places like the lower level of City Hall, lower level of 9th Av in Brooklyn, or see how far the tunnel spurs north of 57th St on the Q, W go (that would have made an interesting new line there from the Broadway line)
Well, the lower level of City Hall has only one sign stating the exit, there are no tiles or anything like that down there, very plain and the tracks all end in bumping blocks at the south end of City Hall station. Nothing really of interest.
9th Avenue station still has all of the old signs hanging from the ceilings and pillars. Some of them still have no graffiti on it, which is something that I cannot say about the walls there. Water dripping everywhere and a lot of garbage. Very eery place, especially at night, you think that the "boogie-man" is gonna get ya.
I'd go, with a pack of Gold Bond powder, throw it at the "boogie-man" and tell him it's ANTHRAX!! :-)
Big rats down there too!
Zman is actually incorrect here (that's the first time I've ever seen that happen).
On the 6th av side, the ballasted trackway you see leads to the Broadway tracks. Before the TA built the Chrystie St. connection in the late 60's, there was no 6th av tracks, and the trackways you see carried all trains headed for Broadway. If you ride a Q/W train northbound and look out of the starboard windows, you'll see the same lit-up, ballasted trackway.
As for the one you see on the broadway side when you ride southbound (again looking out of your 'starboard' window) those are the tracks that head to Chambers st on the J/M line. The tracks actually loop southward, hence making a Nassau St. loop, a service that ran prior to 1967 (chrystie St completion). As far as service pattern on that route, maybe someone else can inform you. So, in essence, the North side used to carry Broadway trains, the south side carried Nassau trains. (you probably knew that)
>>>>>>>>Zman is actually incorrect here (that's the first time I've ever seen that happen).
Aw sheet, I've bollocked up this board quite a few times (and it won't be the last).
But I am glad that you corrected me on this. Tank yew.
Initially, all subway service over the Manhattan Bridge used the south side tracks and terminated at Chambers St. The north side tracks went into service when the Broadway line opened.
In later years prior to Chrystie St., the south side tracks were used only during rush hours by Bankers Specials, and then they were deadheading over the bridge.
Very interesting. I guess that sign went up when that plan was as you state, but the entrance closed before the Jamaica Center extension actually opened.
Yup. And it's plainly visible as you drive past it on the parkway.
That plus the signs in the station still refer to the "Interboro Pkwy". And then we come to "Van Wyck Blvd"....
:-) Andrew
I don't know about you, but when I drive -- especially on that parkway -- I tend to be looking at the road in front of me, not at subway signs to my right and left. All I've been able to make out from the parkway is the existence of a subway entrance or two.
Dear everyone:
Would you happen to know the current status of MABSTOA? Is it still a non-civil service subsidiary of MTA NYCT, or has it been fully integrated with MTA NYCT? If you have answers, could you please provide some detail?
Thank you very much for any information that you may be able to provide.
MaBSTOA is still considered "non-civil service". The only thing that has changed in the past few years is the fact that the name MaBSTOA has disappeared from the sides of buses, and MaBSTOA and NYCTA employees can now ride each others services at no cost.
Could someone provide some detail as what MABSTOA, I believe it means Manhattan and Bronx Surface Tran Oper Authoirty. Any history would be apprepriated. Is it a left over of some old private bus companys? I'm sort of interested as my grandfather was a driver and dispatcher for the 5th Ave Coach Co in the twentys, thirys and fourtys.
Piggo
There is a brief history of MaBSTOA HERE. Yes, it is mostly comprised of the old 5th Ave. Coach Co.
Peace,
ANDEE
MABSTOA was formed in March 1962, after a 20+ day strike that shut down Fifth Avenue Coach Lines and its subsidiary company, Surface Transit. Together, both companies controlled all Bronx and most Manhattan bus routes. Exceptions were NYCTA Manhattan Division, today's M15, M22, M31 (York Avenue portion) M50, and M66, plus Ave. B and East Broadway M8 Grand St. Xtown and M9 Ave. B-Essex St.
The strike occurred when a new management took over Fifth Ave. and proposed worker firings and a 20 cent fare in order to cover an expected deficit. The TWU struck Fifth Ave. on March 1, 1962. As the new Fifth Ave. management had also alienated the NY City government, Albany quickly passed legislation allowing the City to take over the franchises, buses, and garages by condemnation. MABSTOA was created at that time as a subsidiary agency of NYCTA. By March 25 the buses were running on most routes, and soon the varied-colored fleet of GMs and Macks were repainted in the NYCTA's two tone green of the era. Begining in 1963 with the large fleet of new look GM 5303's (3400-3655), new bus purchases for MABSTOA were part of NYCTA orders.
STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
That clorine bleach the cleaners use is pretty potent. Maybe a bit too much was dumped at the end of the station to get rid of the urine smell. Has happened in the past, but now people are hysterical......Just a thought!
RAIL RIDERSHIP SOARS
Peace,
ANDEE
On my NEC trip today all the Park n' Ride lots were packed in both PA, NJ and CT.
Music to my ears
I dispute the part that says LIRR ridership is unchanged. On weekends, I've ridden in from Farmingdale on weekend mornings. I don't know if it's the Mayor's tourism plea or wanting to see "ground zero", but empty seats are scarce on morning trains. When the train comes into Jamaica and they pile in, every seat is taken, looks like rush hour.
Bill "Newkirk"
I dispute the part that says LIRR ridership is unchanged. On weekends, I've ridden in from Farmingdale on weekend mornings. I
don't know if it's the Mayor's tourism plea or wanting to see "ground zero", but empty seats are scarce on morning trains. When the train comes into Jamaica and they pile in, every seat is taken, looks like rush hour.
On the other hand, it's been my impression that rush hour trains, at least on the Ronkonkoma and Montauk lines, are just slightly less crowded than normal. Ridership right now is about at levels normally seen during the summer. It used to be that the middle seats on the three-across sides of Ronkonkoma trains were always filled; now some of them aren't.
I'd be very interested in seeing whether actual statistics bear out my observations.
The recent WMATA map incident mentioned in Times Article
Peace,
ANDEE
Ahh yes. I had a feeling that would happen.... :)
Is it any wonder that people think this is an official MTA site? Maybe they should pay you...
-Hank
I don't know if it was me or someone else who said it, but the Times quotes someone saying that subway riders should "fill out a will and pay their insurance." I remember the quote from here.
But the entire discussion was about that fact that terrorism is just another low odds threat that will probably kill someone, but probably not you, so you can be prepared for an untimely death, but shouldn't alter your behavior. The Times makes it looks like subway riders think the subway is a death trap.
As I've said, it appears that the media is virtually egging terrorists -- or anyone who doesn't like New York or New Yorkers -- to spread poison in the subway. Not good for ridership, not good for New York. It hasn't mentioned anthrax in commuter rail terminals, in taxis, or cars, however. Hmmm.
Well I've got news for the Times. I had a copy of its newspaper at work at the Transit Authority the other day, when word of antrax attacks against the media came out. A co-worker said "of course, that's how they'll get us, putting anthrax on newspapers which we all read!," and demanded I get it away from her. She was serious. How about spreading THAT panic?
I remember the quote. It was part of the "Are you afraid to ride the subways" thread.
If a situation arises where, say, 3 T/O's all pick the same job but all 3 have the same hire date. How is it determined which T/O gets the job?
Peace,
ANDEE
Your seniority number is based on your appointment date and your score on the civil service test to enter that title. Take for example T/O's A, B and C. Both became a T/O on Oct.16th.........................
A scored a 92 on the CS test
B scored a 84
C scored a 87
Therefore, "A" would have more seniority than "C" who in turn would have more seniority than "B". All file (seniority) numbers are based on this.
Also only one T/O (or C/R) can pick a job. Once that job is picked, no one else in that particular title can touch it with one exception..............If a T/O were to pick say job C-201 with Sat/Sun off, then that's his job period. If he were to take Sun/Mon off, then C-201 would be closed for Tues thru Fri, and a junior guy can pick up the one available day (Monday) for C-201.
Thank You
(extending your example)
That leaves the guy working 4 days, Tue-Fri. Does he then pick up a left-over day to work on Saturday?
Can you pick up a 6th day if you want? Bus drivers used to have that option back home when I was a kid...
What if you need one of your regular working days off? Can you request?
Separate crew schedules are picked for Weekday, Saturday, Sunday, and major holiday runs. One pick has nothing to do with the other.
>>>>>>>Can you pick up a 6th day if you want?
You cannot pick a 6th day. What you can do is send in a request to work one of your RDO's, and the borough/tour that you prefer to work, and the crew office can then assign you a random job to work one of your days off. This is your only option to work an RDO and it does not mean that you will actually be assigned anything. Sometimes there's nothing available for OT and you'd actually have to take two days off (perish the thought).
My point of comparioson is limited but I had heard that alot more senior guys were moving to the XL. Had you noticed this? I was not sure if it was due to supplements or people were looking to pad their last years.
I was also surprised how many people at least claim they hate the yard, even the guys that pick 8 hr easy jobs and would not take the pay cut due to a low list number. I know the 'ladies men' hate the yard because who wants to stare at old fat sweaty unshaved guys all day.
I've seen the board quite a few times, and it appears that the exact same people have ventured back onto the extra list. The only line that's been vacated so fast that you'd think a skunk set off in the dispatcher's office is the E line. When they cut all of the high paying penalty jobs for next pick, all of the senior guys left in droves. Quite a few of them found their way onto the A, C and F.
And there are quite a few T/O's who'd rather pound the road over yard/station switching because they either want a set schedule, or they're uncomfortable with working in a yard. But those T/O's are in a slight minority.
Traditionally the E line was just about the first line to get filled up. This is the first time I remember it being so wide open with new faces coming over. The "tradition" of the E line being a seniroty line may be coming to an end.
Sounds like what happened on the 7 line. You take the money away and the seniority will follow it. The highest paying jobs on the 7 (excluding the two utility jobs in Corona Yard) pay in the neighborhood of 9:10. Some 5 trippers used to pay 10:30, now they pay 8:30. You never get off the train. I would consider picking 4 on the E if it paid 10 hours. 4 on the E for 8:30 is blood money. Heck, 3 on the E for 8:30 is blood money. I can't blame the senior men for bailing out.
Maybe the E AM guys went to the V
Zman, help me out, 'cause my list will probably be put out this winter, and this is a sticking point for me:
If you are assigned for example Sat-Wed, and you need a Mon off, can you get it? (esp. as a newbie)
Thanks,
Dave
I'm not Zman but....
As a newbie, you won't have much chance to be off mondays. You can ask at the pickroom. Maybe if you have a hardship you might be able to get monday off. Can't help to try. But I wouldn't hold out much hope. Try asking for monday-tuesday day. You have a better chance for that instead of sunday-monday.
I was thinking just ONE day, like for a wedding (possibly your own!). If you normally work Monday but need just one of them off, can you request it, as time-off no-pay?
You can, it is in one of the above Zman posts. At least 30day's in advance notice (more notice the better chance) but not less then 2 weeks.
Being so new you might have to take it as no-pay but I'm not sure about that.
Yes. If you have managed to save an AVA before the day you need off, you can even take it off with pay.
For one day, put in for an AVA. If you don't have that yet, (I don't know how new you are) put in for a day off without pay. And if THAT doesn't work call out sick.
Yes, he would pick a Saturday job.
You can tell them you are available for working and RDO (regular day off) put you can't have a picked RDO job.
If you temporarily need a certain day off you might be able to get it in a hardship situation. I don't want to miss date night with my wife does not cut it. I don't know if youcan get away with a permanent hardship. As a T/O the dual employment standards are higher than for other positions so haveing a second job and taking the time from transit is a no no. That said if they had pt TO's like BART, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
6 weeks is the longest I've heard of being granted a hardship; however, I think he might have meant for missing an occasional day. Should that be the case, yes, you can request to take off a day that you are regularly scheduled to work. Request are due to more than 30 days prior to the day you want and no later than two weeks before. Requests are granted on a first-come first-served basis. These days can be taken off with pay if you have been smart enough to save your holidays for just such a case. For a better explanation, go here and click on the Info about working as a Train Operator. The section you want is Vacation, Holidays and other time off.
For S/As here is the system
1-seniority is the same as RTO. If you get promoted you gave up to one year to return to your old job snd regain your seniority. If your year endsd asfter they publish the next annual list you'd be given a "A" number such as 1234A (which comes after 1234 and before 1235.> After 1 year you'd be a new employee and at the bottom of the barrel except for vacation- ie you had 4 weeks before and you go back 13 months after, you still get 4 weeks.
Jobs:
All jobs are posted in the pick room located at 42/8th. You select either a 5 day job(AM, PM or Night), RDO, Lunch, EXtra or Vacation relief.
Let's say I pick Marcy Ave (I wish!). I am then asked for my RDOs- Let's say I want Saturday Sunday. The job is crossed off the wall.
About 2-3 weeks later you go back if you selected RDO (regualr Days Off) and then all jobs open are listed by day:
All Sunday Jobs, All Monday Jobs, etc. you pick 5 jobs to make your schedule--you can take a booth for 1 or 2 days meaning you can have 3,4, or 5 different jobs.
Vacation relief you pick "Vacation relief". Periodically, every week or so they send you a list of employees going on vacation- you can pick any job or shift and what you get depends on seniority.
Extra requires you to call during a set time every day(ie 115-315am for night shift) for the next day's job. You have to call during the time you would be working on your second RDO for the job for the first day back at work.
one ps- Lets say the D.E,F and G have the same score on the test. Seniority is then based on postmark date for your application. If G was sent in first then G has the highest seniority among these individuals.
If they dont like your credentials or some other problem arises causing you to miss the class, you would lose seniority and be first in line for the next class. That is how I was number 1 in my class. I should have been in the previous class but Transit did not like my passport and I needed a new passport.(Born overseas.)
When you pick a job your name gets written across from the job along with your seniorty Number Like 6-304 Daily C/R Fox 2871. Lets say C/R Fox picks 6-304 Daily with Thurday/Friday off. Then an RDO Relief person can pick 6-304 Daily on T/F only. Saturday and Sunday the job could be open but it becomes a diffrent job.
The pick process is the same for T/O's and C/R's.
As a Conductor on the IRT you have some choice. When you pick you choose your Tour (Mid,AM,PM) Section Broadway (1,2,3,7) Lines and Eastern (4,5,6) Lines. As a Conductor you can pick a regular job, RDO Relief, Vacation Relief, Extra, Platform, Constuction Flagging, and Handswitching B Div Only.
All Picked Platform jobs start at Times Square or Grand Central AM's 6AM to 2PM and PM's 12PM to 8PM with weekends off which is very high seniority.
If your a road person the first to go is AM's East and all the jobs on the No.5 Line are picked out first as well. The last to go for the rookies out of School car like me is Broadway PM's. The last lines to be picked is the No.2 and No.7 Lines. Ofcause if your out of School car for the A Div. your looking at a 1 Year wait on the Extra Extra. List. Also if there is a job open you must pick it but if all jobs are picked you stay Extra. Lets say you get stuck with a job you don't like or want to get off the extra list because the bouncing around is driveing you nuts like with me then you look for the BID sheets. The Bid sheet have jobs that picked but where Vacated maybe because the person resigned, Retired, promoted etc.
Heres a Question for my co workers on the B Divison. What is the last lines that get pick out over in the B Div. I may try to go over there. I should have about 2 years when I may make the move. I'm think about working maybe the A,C,J,M, OR L lines. I believe that North right?
I heard the 3 and 7 were the high seniority lines in the IRT. That because they are the only ones based in Brooklyn and Queens.
Previous discussions on this board have usually brought comments from New Yorkers to the effect that it is impossible to effectively run a subway system without turnstiles to collect fares on entry. I have been riding the LAMTA Blue and Green Lines for the past six weeks, and have to say that I think POP is working in Los Angeles.
The Los Angeles system works with completely open stations with ticket machines at the entries. There are signs near the machines indicating that a valid ticket must be in your possession at all times beyond that point. There are no turnstiles of any kind, and most of the stations are completely unattended by any uniformed LAMTA personnel. You can buy a one way, round trip, or transfer ticket at the machine. The machine accepts coins, bills, and credit cards and makes change (although some of them are always temperamental about which bills they will accept).A one way ticket is good for two hours in a direction going away from the station where it was purchased, a round trip ticket is good for two hours in the direction away from the station and for the rest of the day in the return direction. The transfer ticket is similar to the one-way ticket, but can be used to transfer to a bus or another rail line. Timely transfers from a bus are acceptable, and one can also travel without stopping at the machines with a monthly or weekly unlimited pass.
During the past six weeks, I have been asked for proof of purchase only twice. One time there was a police officer standing in a narrow area at the transfer point between the Blue and Green Lines checking the POP of each one changing trains, and the other time, a police officer stepped onto the car just as the doors were closing and announced that it was a fare check. He walked through the car which had all seats taken and a few standing passengers, during the ride between stations and checked everyone there. What surprised me was that at neither time was anyone found who did not have a valid ticket. In other words the system is working.
Keep in mind that the penalty for trying to beat a $1.35 fare can be as high as $250.00. If someone is found without a valid fare proof, he is given a summons similar to a traffic ticket and must take the time to go to court and then will have a stiff fine. If a fare beater does not have identification with him, or a warrant check determines he has outstanding warrants he is hooked up right there and taken to jail from the next stop. Those who wish to avoid contact with law enforcement officers will always purchase a ticket. The system is working.
The system has the obvious advantage to the MTA of lower personnel costs by not having to man the stations or watch turnstiles (although the busy downtown stations have several roving station agents to assist riders). Since the ridership is far lower than New York, that is even more important since there are fewer fares per station. Also, since some of the Blue Line stations are on public streets or existing ROW, the stations are narrow center platforms, with some entries no wider than a typical sidewalk. It would be physically difficult to put more than one or two turnstiles at each station. Although the Red Line which is a traditional subway does not have the physical limitations of the Blue Line stations, for me as a pass holder it is nice to be able to go directly from the street to a train without stopping anywhere or even taking my pass out of my pocket.
Tom
You said it yourself. The LA system is not as big so you can get away with a POP (Proof of Payment) system. Just as it works with the HBLR and the Newark City Subway.
But considering that there are over 6,000 cars (in 8 and 10 car sets)468 stations (with multiple entrances) and 3 million riders daily in the NYC system a POP could never be practical here. Also the turnstiles do serve a minor but useful purpose as well. It controls the flow of people enterning and exiting at a station. Without that small amount of control it would be pure pandemonium (as opposed to the modified pandemonium it is now).
>>> But considering that there are over 6,000 cars (in 8 and 10 car sets)468 stations (with multiple entrances) and 3 million riders daily in the NYC system a POP could never be practical here <<<
I don't think the size makes it any harder to have a POP system, there would have to be proportionally more officers assigned to fare checking, and possibly the realization that fare beaters will not get a simple slap on the wrist needs to be taught. The larger system hides the costs of staffing every station a little better.
Tom
>>and possibly the realization that fare beaters will not get a simple slap on the wrist needs to be taught. The larger system hides the costs of staffing every station a little better. >>
I get the impression that you are not around NYC that often.
Fare beaters in NYC do not get a slap on the wrist. The problem is that many have no money at all so fines mean nothing to them. To have a force of group police to just monitor tickets is a very wasteful idea. IMHO, the police have a prority and checking tickets is not something they should have to worry about. They have a squad assigned to monitor select stations for fare beaters and that works fine.
Accept the fact that it would not work in NYC and leave it at that.
>>> Fare beaters in NYC do not get a slap on the wrist. The problem is that many have no money at all so fines mean nothing to them. To have a force of group police to just monitor tickets is a very wasteful idea. IMHO, the police have a prority and checking tickets is not something they should have to worry about. <<<
What is the fine for fare beating in New York? I get the impression it is about $50.00 or less. Of course there are some who will not be worried about fines or jail time, but they are a small minority of the population who regularly spend time in and out of Rikers. Those who cannot afford the $1.50 fare will continue to ride without paying in either system. And of course the police officers on the trains do not just monitor tickets. They patrol the system for any crime, and provide a sense of security to the riders of the trains, since they are in radio contact with their dispatchers and can quickly go to any disturbance. The random checking of tickets is no more a priority for them than watching a stop sign to see a motorist not stopping is for patrol officers in NYC. Since I was only checked twice in six weeks it is clear that fare checking is not that intensive an activity and is effective. The real difference is there is no large number of TA employees monitoring fare compliance.
The real reason POP would not take hold in New York is a resistence to change from "the way we have always done it." For New Yorkers, the turnstiles are an integral part of the subway experience.
Tom
POP is standard on most of the 'new' LRV systems--Sacto, Balto, Portland, HBLR, San Jose etc. Interestingly, it has been haltingly and grudgingly (Sation clerks earn more than bus drivers I'm told) by SF MUNI on the LRV/Metro lines so far. (despite now demanding POP evidence in the tunnels, the S/A's are still busy reading magazines in their booths) Plans to extend POP to bus and trolley coach lines are not yet official, but on some very busy routes have de facto been instituted with some encouragement from MUNI management. As to enforcement, it is haphazard. However, I rarely see anyone written up when riding so apparently the enforcement level is sufficient.
>>Of course there are some who will not be worried about fines or jail time, but they are a small minority of the population who regularly spend time in and out of Rikers.<<
You are definetly not a NYer because that statement is typical of someone from outside the area who hasn't the faintest idea of what is going on here. The majority of fare beaters usually have jobs and when stopped have more than enough money in their pocket. I have witnessed people in business suits trying to enter w/o paying (they get caught).
BTW - the fine is more than $50 and increases after each offense.
I would rather see the NY police checking for criminal activity on the subway system rather than valid tickets. POP would require installing a totalling new payment system, one that goes backwards rather than forwards.
>>> You are definetly not a NYer because that statement is typical of someone from outside the area who hasn't the faintest idea of what is going on here. The majority of fare beaters usually have jobs and when stopped have more than enough money in their pocket. <<<
Having ducked under turnstiles in New York as a kid, and having ridden once without a valid fare on the L. A. Blue Line I fully understand the difference in fare beating at both places.
To beat the fare in New York all one has to do is get past the turnstile. Those in suits who are caught (and many others who are not caught) have glanced around, seen no one to stop them, and jumped the turnstile or gone through an exit gate because based on their observations, they thought they could get away with that quick action at that time. In a POP system, fare beaters are subject to being caught all through their journey. They cannot tell in advance the likelihood of not being detected on any specific trip. Since getting caught once can result in a fine equal to 185 fares in Los Angeles, those who can afford the fare usually pay it, and only those who truly can not afford the fare and have a pressing need to travel, or those who have absolutely no respect for the law will regularly ride without paying the fare.
Tom
POP during rush hours in New York City, with 250-plus people jammed into an 75-foot R-44/46/68 car with no way for ticket checkers to either move about or go between the cars easily except on a straightaway would be an inefficent means of collecting fares, to say the least.
>>> POP during rush hours in New York City, with 250-plus people jammed into an 75-foot R-44/46/68 car with no way for ticket checkers to either move about or go between the cars easily except on a straightaway would be an inefficent means of collecting fares <<<
In a crush loaded subway car there would be no way to check fare payment, but it certainly could be checked at exits from the system during the outbound rush hours, and on entry to platforms during the inbound rush hour, and at transfer points. You must keep in mind that POP is not an attempt to check everyone riding on a given train or day. Checks are minimal and irregular, only enough so riders are aware that they do happen, and the checkers are law enforcement officers looking for criminals (since it is illegal to ride without paying the fare), not LIRR conductors collecting fares.
Tom
What gives you the idea that every outlying station doesn't have large crowds? (My home station is ranked 55th out of 468 in passenger volume. That's pretty crowded.)
What gives you the idea that every trip is inbound or outbound? Many trips are within midtown Manhattan.
If you tried to check fares at transfer points the delays would extend for hours.
I don't understand. We have a fare collection system that works. You announce that we should switch to an entirely new fare collection system that isn't actually any better than the one we have and, if we're lucky, might not actually hold people up wherever they try to go.
The homeless would lose their overnight accomodations with that system.
Forget the homeless -- I wouldn't be able to railfan all day on a single fare!
>>> Forget the homeless -- I wouldn't be able to railfan all day on a single fare! <<<
Because of the many different intersecting lines in NYC, a one way fare and transfer system would not be practical. More workable would be a single fare good for three hours anywhere, supplemented with daily, weekly and monthly unlimited passes.
Tom
Have you considered the forgery problem?
Tokens used to be coin of the realm. Making slugs was a cottage industry. Many years ago, Connecticut Turnpike tokens (35 cents) started appearing in NYC Subway turnstiles. What was noteworthy is that their appearance started two weeks before the tokens were introduced in Connecticut.
The Metrocard's strength is that the card's validation is not completely stored on the card but requires an off site computer. Also would be fare beaters are stopped at the threshold as opposed to POP.
Would be forgers would bust open the vending machine to steal ticket stock, if were difficult to duplicate. Do the validators have enough smarts to tell a fake ticket from a real one? If they do, then the time stamp would also be forged. The roving inspectors are making a visual check. They'll be hard pressed to find the forgeries.
If you are talking about the validating machines they are nothing more than time stamps. In the case of HBLR and Newark City Subway all you do is insert the ticket in the slot and it stamps the date and time - and you are holding the ticket all the while as the validation goes on the top of the ticket. The ticket leaves the purchasers hand.
Quite a while ago Arnold Joseph's passing was mentioned here. Does anyone have any info regarding his close relative's adresse(s)? I'm wondering if it's not too late to send condolences.
Also, does anyone know what's happenned to his store's items?
Does anyone know what was going on there today around 8-8:30 AM? All trains (exp/local) north and south were held, so I'm guessing it was more than a simple stabbing. Stuff was resumed so I'm guessing it turned out to be nothing substantial, but I'd be interested in finding out what it was.
So out of the entire crowd at Brooklyn Bridge (and presumably all the stations on Lexington) at 8:30 in the morning, I was the only one from Subtalk?
I don't believe it...
Well, my wife's boss was thrown off a 6 at about that time, but that's the best I can do.
i only heard 'a police investigation' mentioned on the radio. no idea what, and no problems coming through on the w.
I heard someone started yelling something and someone got into a fight. But this is from a District 12 Officer, District 12 is in the Bronx.
Also unrelated though I saw a 2 train of redbirds heading uptown on the 4/5 between BB and 14th. It was in service as there were people on it. This was around 12:30pm.
It was the hourly anthrax scare
From an article in the News:
Snag in Subway Service
Riders were hit yesterday with another rash of subway delays and reroutings because of reports of suspicious powders in the system.
Two reported sightings in East Side subway stations shut the Lexington Ave. line twice during the morning rush.
A similar scare stopped Broadway local trains at Lincoln Center at lunchtime, and an A train was pulled from service in East New York, Brooklyn, after a passenger saw something suspicious. White powder also was spotted on a Long Island Rail Road platform at Penn Station.
Cops checked out the reports and found nothing dangerous
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anybody have a new subway route (besides 2nd Ave) that would better serve passengers and tap into areas with limited or no subway service. It could tie in with existing lines or be a new line. I'm interested in hearing all suggestions and ideas regarding this.
K train, sharing the 14th St. line with the L, then remaining on Metropolitan Ave after the L leaves it on into Queens, then turning down Union Tpke as far as we could possibly do, to the Nassau Line if possible.
:-) Andrew
Yes, A Utica Ave line in Bklyn. First it was supposed to be part of the IND second system, then in the 70's, the turnouts from the Brooklyn IRT local at Utica. This would have been a welcome relief for parts southeast Blyn.
My fantasy line would be the "?" train in a vomit green circle that would operate from the Hunts Point fish market, down the FDR Drive, then thru Staten Island, Bayonne and would end in Camden. Train crews would be permitted to carry firearms for the brief south Jersey portion of the route.
>>>Train crews would be permitted to carry firearms for the brief south Jersey portion of the route.<<<
Protection from Jersey Mike, no doubt. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
A LIRR/Metro North Joint venture, Montauk to Poughkeepsie, stopping at East Hampton, Speonk, Patchogue, Babylon, Hicksville (via Central), Mineola, Jamaica, Woodside, NY Penn, Yonkers, Croton-Harmon, all local stops Croton Harmon to Poughkeepsie......you talk about a scenic ride!!! I bet in the fall and summer weekends this run would be a moneymaker!!
A LIRR/Metro North Joint venture, Montauk to Poughkeepsie, stopping at East Hampton, Speonk, Patchogue, Babylon, Hicksville (via Central), Mineola, Jamaica, Woodside, NY Penn, Yonkers, Croton-Harmon, all local stops Croton Harmon to Poughkeepsie......you talk about a scenic ride!!! I bet in the fall and summer weekends this run would be a moneymaker!!
I like.
:-) Andrew
I think Reebok did an advertisement with a "?" in it.
You said fantasy, right?
Extension of 7 train, or turnout near Willets Pt., into Bayside Queens.
Rehab of Lower Montauk branch of LIRR to subway service.
Rehab of West Side freight line to subway service (but must find creative ways around buildings where track cut-through was eliminated), or 10th Avenue subway. There's very little manufacturing left on the west side, and if its not already rezoned and redeveloped for residential use, it will be soon. You've got the Javitz Ctr., and may soon have the Riverside Park as destinations, not to mention the ferries and cruise ships.
Staten Island connection to Manhattan, with rehab of abandoned SIRR lines (North Shore, etc.).
Integration of PATH with IRT.
Just to name a few of mine.
Extension of 7 train, or turnout near Willets Pt., into Bayside Queens.
Rehab of Lower Montauk branch of LIRR to subway service.
No arguments from me.
May want to throw an F extension in there too.
:-) Andrew
Extend 2ve (the V train) east and North into Alphabet City
That's an excellent question!
Everyone here talks quite a bit about the Second Avenue subway. As you can see from my handle, I am not only a Second Avenue resident, but a strong proponent of constructing such a subway.
However, I also realize that there are other undeserved regions of the City. Aside from the Upper and Lower East Sides, here are my ideas of S.M.A.R.T. (Specific, Measurable, Action-oriented, Realistic, and Timely) transit proposals (i.e., not pie-in-the sky fantasy):
1) Extend the Crosstown-IRT from 42nd Street Times-Square to the Javitz Center, and possibly down 10th Avenue to a West Side Stadium, if said stadium is constructed.
Midtown West is a mainly residential area undeserved by subway rapid transit, similar to the Upper East Side. Providing rapid transit access to the Javitz Center will help the convention business. If a West Side stadium is constructed, it would certainly need a subway connection.
Construction would be deep-bore by TBM under 42nd to 10th Avenue after clearing the 8th Avenue IND. At tenth avenue, the tunnel would make a turn to the left and proceed South under 10th Avenue untill reaching the rail yards around West 34th.
Stations would be located in the vicinity of 10th & 42nd, and 10th & 34th.
Clearing the 8th Avenue IND line could be accomplished via three methods:
1) Go through the lower level:
a) Abandon the superfluous lower level trackage and platform at 42nd street, and run the tunnel clear through.
b) Abandon the lower level platform, but keep half the trackage (north or south of 42nd street). Trackage would be for non-revenue service, and with an extra curved tunnel segment, a connection between the 8th Avenue IND and Cross-town IRT lines could be provided. I'm not exactly sure what purpose this would serve other than to provide a standby connection between the Cross-town IRT and remainder of the system.
2) Go underneath the lower level: This may require lowering the floor of the IRT tunnel segment running west of Times Square.
I estimate the cost for such a line extension at about $2 billion and change.
MATT-2AV
I think that ther is already very serious talk in the works (money is starting to be spent). They plan on turning south then west.
A connection from the 7 to 8 Ave without the long walk might be nice plus they likely want a connection (with a long walk) from Penn to the extended 7 line.
Yeah, I had read the proposal of tunneling down 7th Avenue under the 1/2/3/9 a while ago, but I feel it has serious conceptual flaws. I also don't believe the project has progressed beyond the preliminary planning phase. It is not uncommon for an agency to put forth an impractical or undesirable plan as a means of generating negative public reaction and thus not having to progress further.
There may be unforeseen obstacles to extending the cross-town IRT west (before turning south), and if you check the archives, you'll see that I tried to investigate some of them here about a year ago. So far, nobody that I know of has been able to turn up anything, but that doesn't mean an obstacle is not there.
I feel a west then south route serves more people, and is more practical, but I don't have the necessary background information to verify this.
MATT-2AV
I actually don't think running the (7) down 7th Ave is a bad idea, necessarily. Perhaps it could come with some track connections between the (7) and the (1)(2)(3)(9). And it could mean access between the (7) and Penn Station.
:-) Andrew
Andrew,
Don't get me wrong. I don't think it is a terrible idea. I just assert that money is better spent introducing subway service to previously unserved areas, rather than doubling up along existing ROW.
The alignment you discuss does permit a one-seat ride for Queens commuters to Penn Station, but I personally feel that money should not be spent to eliminate a transfer (to an eight block express or local ride, nonetheless!) unless ridership studies clearly prove there is a need. Money could be spent to improve the physical transfer environment in Times Square instead.
One benefit to to your idea is that it does permit a one-seat ride between Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal, which my alternative proposal does not.
MATT-2AV
I think Andrew's point is that such a connection would give the 7 a direct track connection to the rest of the A Division. Right now the 7's only connection to the rest of the system is at Queensboro Plaza.
I think Andrew's point is that such a connection would give the 7 a direct track connection to the rest of the A Division. Right now the 7's only connection to the rest of the system is at Queensboro Plaza.
Right you are!
:-) Andrew
Well, here is one of mine. How about an a new extension coming off the Broadway Line's local track stubs north of 57th street to tunnel east and connect to the proposed Second Avenue Line and have that tunnel continue into Queens as part of a new trunk line under Northern Blvd that would contine all the way on that street to the county line or even into Nassau County. A spur from that line would branch off in Flushing one heading north toward the Bronx and the other heading south, serving the neighborhoods like Fresh Meadows and Glen Oaks. It would go to the county line or into Nassau like the main line.
isn't that what the 63rd street line was built for?
How about sending those local tracks west to the 8th ave subway's line at 59th st?
Connect Franklin Av. S to Fulton St. A/C line. Then add extra track on Fulton St. line junction with F to connect smoothly to Rutgers St. tunnel F line. Then branch off F line at Delancey to under 2nd Av. up to the Bronx.
The 8 from 149 street to Bowling Green to ease congestion on the Lexington Avenue line.And I know Everyone says theres not enough track capacity but If some 4 trains have a roll sign change then there would be no problem.
How do you get more capacity out of a line by changing some of the train's signs? All you'll end up doing is cutting service to Brooklyn and the Bronx, since the bottleneck is in Manhattan (where the 4 and 5 share tracks).
David, Have a safe and pleasant time away.
Anyone know a good alternate place to go and talk subway?
:-) Andrew
David Cole has a site...I forget the URL address, though.
Dave Cole's forum: The Nth Ward
Yes- my website has a very active subway discussion: http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/view.cgi
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway Messageboard
-Harry
You can come to the forum I started. I started it for off topic discussion but certainly Discussion of subways and railroads is welcome as well.Click Here
For those of us who use Usenet (and I know you do), nyc.transit is the obvious place.
Thanks. When I come back I hope to have some nice pictures of Spanish and Portuguese funiculars for the site. :-)
I'll be advertising some alternate places when the hiatus starts...
Good luck and have fun.
:-) Andrew
Enjoy and be safe.
Paul
p.s. if you want your message board to be listed in the interim please send me an email by Wednesday morning.
Thanks.
dave
My E-mail is not working right now But the adress of my board is http://pluto.beseen.com/boardroom/e/56983/Date
You need to find some sort of backup Subtalk-master. Friends, significant others and offspring are all possible sources. I mean what if you were involved in some sort of accident? What if you got stuck in some forigen transit system that requires an exit fare?
I hope you have a safe and pleasent trip.
Enjoy the trip! If you make it to Barcelona, think of me... when I lived there Franco was still in power so the streets were all Spanish names instead of Catalan... I lived on Calle Laforja, 56, and later on Calle Provenza, 138. Not sure what the names translate to now. The funicular at Tibidabo was operating when I was there - rode it a number of times.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
remember the old saying " when the cats away the mice will play "...???
you mean "the mice act like rats"
LOL....
Subtalkers-&-Bustalkers..............................
LOL !!!
This won't be my last post ever-this will be my last post on this board for a temporary time-probably for about a month-maybe more. I'm going through some very tough times at school right now and I have to be focused. I'm graduating in January from SJU and will be looking for a good job-possibly with the TA.
I appreciate being on this board and hope that all will understand.
I'll leave with a quote from Anon_e_Mouse:
"Until Next Time!"
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
The True Red White and Blue!
good luck
If you're looking for a good job, look elsewhere.
-Hank
Of course I couldn't expect any other shit comment from you!
Hate to call it, but HANK makes sense, Abe.
Ummmm... do we know you??
& if the 9 11 01 had not happened i would have been there shootin' video on the 1-9 etc...
& if the 9 11 01 had not happened i would have been there shootin' video on the 1-9 etc...
LOS ANGLES BLUE LINE GRAND STATION next to the olympic auditorium trade tech college
Does anyone know, by any chance who has been selected to build the M-7 or who is at least being thought of as a possible builer, because right now the only companies I heard of are in the running are Tokyu Car (M-6) and Bombardier. Anyone can tell me?
i believe Bombardier is building the M-7s. M-7s are just about ready to hit the road a Engineer on LIRR tells me. Anyways check out bombardiers website, they got the specs.
BOMBARDIER is the builder of all of the M-7's, and they are a different design, far different than the old MU's.
Yep, and if the previews are to be believed, these M-7 are ugly, ugly, UGHLY - uglier than a bunch of P.T. Cruisers! OH PHOOEY!
wayne
I also hope to take the 920 or 953 or so. if there is a railfan window i will be at it. I ordered a new Train shirt the W. so if u see someone who is tall with a W train shirt its probably me. If not i can promise i will have a Train shirt on. Anyways i should be there. C u there
The express is thru to Poukeepsie, so it probably will have a loco pulling it, I will look for you.
53's are the express the railfan window has a view of the back of the engine. >G<
The local might have a railfan windown if the head car is open.
I'm on the 9:53 meeting at the Info Booth at 9:30am. Sit on the left side of the train for best view of Hudson.
That gets us there at 11, I was planning a hour earlier to get us there when it opens at 10.00. Unless I am wrong and it opens at 11.00A will take the 950 exp, and meet you at the upper level info booth by the subway informaTION
THE OPEN HOUSE STARTS AT 10-3. I AM PLANNING TO TAKE THE 854 FROM GCT, ANYBODY WANTS TO MEET AT 830-840 AT THE UPPER LEVEL INFO BOOTH GCT. I HAVE GLASSES AND WILL BE WEARING A LIGHT BLUE BASEBALL CAP THAT SAYS #1 BRIGHTON BEACH BOB. I DID NOT BUY IT, IT WAS A GIFT FROM SEA BEACH FRED WHEN HE STAYED AT MY HOUSE IN AUGUST. SEE YOU ALL THERE
Anybody make BAHN layouts of current service? If you do after the board shuts down for the rest of the month, please email at nfi857@aol.com Thanks.
Now's as good a time as any....
What is a BAHN?
Rail simulation program. Focus on the layout and switching rather than on graphics.
Once COmpleted I will be glad to ship out copies!
Trevor
Does the TA still issue photo permits? I seem to recall obtaining one in the early 1980's from Public Relations (I believe).
I haven't bothered to get a new permit since, because it was never necessary (unlike in Boston, where transit employees routinely harass railfan photographers). However, with the high level of security and anxiety these days, I believe it might be a good idea to show that you have 'official permission' to be taking pictures in stations if your presence with a camera is questioned by a police officer or TA employee.
Jim D.
I was recently told that a Photo Permit is only need for large scale photo and video shoots in the TA.
Since I've heard that, I have used tripods and such for my night photography and have not been bothered, as a matter of fact, I've been getting stuff posed lovely and T/Os smiling. It's quite funny at times!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Better safe than sowwy.
I've got mine.
<<< Better safe than sowwy. I've got mine. >>>
Where do I go to get a permit?
Jim D.
There better be a good reason for this?not some stupid"im going on vacation" BS
Because many of us have been acting bad since 9/11. Why isn't the Webmaster entitled to go on a vacation?
Is his head that big that he cant have someone else run it till he gets back?
Who would you want to run it? Besides he does this out of his own pocket he could shut the board down for good if he wants.
Someone the webmaster trusts, and thinks is resposible, could run it.Why would he shut it down?He's a railfan like the rest of us.
Because during past vacations, the board got way out of hand. Rather than deal with the fall-out afterwards, Dave now closes the board when he leaves town. As for moderating this bunch, I wouldn't want to do it, even if Dave paid me.
Alex is right. Also one or two post went so far past the line that lawsuits were threatened. I don't blame Dave for shutting down. It's just too bad that there appears to be no alternative.
My message board has several SubTalk regulars already!
Here it is:
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway-- Message Board
-Harry
Or you all could go to the straphangers bb. It's pretty good, although not too technical.
www.straphangers.org
and then click on the Rider Diaries link on the left.
Consider me there dude.
I've seen the same behavior in a sports-related board that I also post to. Anonymity brings out the worst in some people, and privileges get taken away from everyone as a result.
Jim D.
> Dave now closes the board when he leaves town
This will be the first time actually.
Better a two week break than a permanent hiatus -- though come 2004, you will need to pick a better two-week period for your trip to Europe :-)
I thought you did it once before -there was a gap of a few days (last winter?) when the board was closed.
True but that was because the software broke while I was away and it was faster to shut it down than to fix it remotely.
Yes He's a railfan like us.Eept he runs a messageboard we use so he could do what ever he wants and we have no say over the matter.
That's very true...we have no say in the matter.
But guess what? Nobody here sends Mr. Pirmann any $$$ to contribute to the expenses of the operation. He pays for everything out of his own pocket.
So as long as he is paying, I don't mind abiding by his rules, policies, actions, or whatever. I can live without the board for a few days or a couple weeks. There's a lot more to life than worrying about this board.
When you put in your own time and money to run a message board like this one, you're welcome to make such a decision.
Right now, the individual who puts in his time and money has decided to put the board on hold while he's away. If you don't like it, start your own board -- I'm sure he won't mind.
Are you such a crybaby and introvert that you cannot do without this board for two weeks?
Grow up.
There's a hell of a lot more to life than sitting your sorry ass in front of a computer and reading this board and crying about things. Is your life so small that this board is all you can think of???
I have a Yahoo club at clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains for an alternative.
the cat is locking up the mice........( subtalkers-bustalkers )......... in a cage ........@ webmaster ...
the reason is { when the cat is away the mice will play }... the cat returns november 3 2001...
Are you sure you didn't just want an excuse to post another of your pix, Salaam? ;-)
You take some great pix. But waasup with that sky? That's an effect I usually expect from a GIF?
IT WAS SHOT THAT WAY .......POSTERIZATION SETTING .....lol !! jpeg setting sony DSCS30 digital still camera..
ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM IN PERIS CALIFORNIA LARGEST RAIL MUSEUM IN THE WEST !!!
waaaaaaasup !!! ......lol !!
Posting on a board like this is a priviledge, not a right. This board, like the whole site, is the property of the webmaster. It is his perogative to close it down.
:-) Andrew
<< There better be a good reason for this?not some stupid"im going on vacation" BS >>
How about because he doesn't trust immature people like you to post responsibly when he's not here to monitor the board?
That is EXACTLY the reason.
The Webmaster has every right in the world to go on vaction.
The Webmaster owns the board and has every right in the world to shut it down if he pleases.
If you can't live without it, you have a serious problem!!!
If you think otherwise, then send the Webmaster some $$$ to help with the expenses he incurs out of his own pocket to run this system, or start your own. NOBODY can come up with a board as good as this one.
Maybe if people would act civilized...and it is NOT just since 9/11 -- it has happened MANY times in the life of SubTalk...then the Webmaster wold not have to feel the need to put the board on hiatus while enjoying his vacation.
And best wishes to Mr. Pirmann for a safe and enjoyable vacation!!! Thanks for your efforts with NY Subway Resources, SubTalk, BusTalk, etc.!!!
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So Gov. Pataki listened to some of the people who figured he should ask for as much as possible while people were still mellow about NY, under the theory that "if you don't ask, you don't get."
"He got a lukewarm reception from both Republicans and Democrats in Washington, many of whom scoffed at his inclusion of up to $12 billion to help the city and state make up for lost revenues - a sort of relief the federal government has not provided in previous disasters - and billions more for apparently unrelated projects like the Second Avenue Subway and rail service to Schenectady."
New York Times Article
Or to put it another way:
Your house has been destroyed through no fault of your own.
You have no insurance.
Surprisingly, your neighborhors (many of whom never liked you, and vv) generously send there love and money to rebuild.
Maybe it's not the time to ask them for money for that Jacuzzi you always wanted.
Things ARE getting back to normal.
So Gov. Pataki listened to some of the people who figured he should ask for as much as possible while people were still mellow about NY, under the theory that "if you don't ask, you don't get.
He got a lukewarm reception from both Republicans and Democrats in Washington, many of whom scoffed at his inclusion of up to $12 billion to help the city and state make up for lost revenues - a sort of relief the federal government has not provided in previous disasters - and billions more for apparently unrelated projects like the Second Avenue Subway and rail service to Schenectady.
And now New York probably will end up getting a lot less than it would have gotten if it hadn't been so piggish. I mean, nobody in City Hall or Albany couldn't have figured that out? While I think Pataki has generally done a good job, he really missed the boat on this one.
No, New York can get relief money, but as I've said (ad nauseum) since Sept. 11, they are going to have to be very specific about what they're going to do with the money; it's going to have to relate in some way to rebuilding the World Trade Center area of Lower Manhattan; and they better not inflate the restoration numbers like Hevisi did with that $3 billion to fix the subway lines around the WTC site.
If the city, state, Port Authority and the MTA come up with a logical plan for restoring the site, and if they can tie other related area subway projects into increasing the mass transit availablity in Lower Manhattan while lessening the security risks from car/truck bombs in the area at the same time, they can probably get significant funding. But Pataki going to Washington and saying "Gimme $54 billion and don't ask what we're going to do with it," isn't going to get the support of anyone outside the NYC area, because the city's past history of squandering cash on frivoluos/overprices projects is legendary.
If the city, state, Port Authority and the MTA come up with a logical plan for restoring the site, and if they can tie other related area subway projects into increasing the mass transit availablity in Lower Manhattan while lessening the security risks from car/truck bombs in the area at the same time, they can probably get significant
funding.
Exactly. It may indeed be possible to get funding for some transit improvements that go beyond mere restoration of the pre-9/11 status quo. But it won't be an easy sell.
This is ridiculous. I mean, I'm in college, and to my understanding, when you ask for this much money you not only have a clearly defined plan for using it (one that is relevant to the situation), but also a proposal that is to be presented. If not that, then a good speech outlining your plan. It surprises (yes, surprises) me that Pataki would go down to Washington and ask for money like that.
Ah, yes, Pataki should have taken his cue from the airline industry. He should have announced to the media that the state of New York was in dire straits, and about to go belly-up. Then, no later than September 15th, he should have laid off around 20% of state employees and those who work for various agencies, including toll takers and transit employees, and reduced or eliminated various services (including bridges, subway lines and bus routes, of course). Had he followed the lead of those forward-thinking business leaders, Congress no doubt would have produced a multi-billion dollar bailout bill for the Empire State in record time.
Jim D.
The link to the NYTimes Article is here.
Read the whole thing. It will fill you up with suspense every paragraph, but except for stories, this is true.
I have learned many things concerning the details of the hijacked airplanes.
UAL 175 (most likely) was the plane that traveled around 500 mph over the Hudson Valley, more than double the restricted speed in that area.
Meanwhile, AA 11 hits North Tower of WTC and UAL 175 is off around in NJ.
Many, many events, fighter jets F16's from the south and an Air Force Base in Massachusetts were all taking action at the time.
Also followed are recorded transcripts of pilots' and unknown pilot's messages. Every sentence of this article will make you keep on reading. (Depends on how interested you are in these details)
AA 77 was traveling over 500 mph when the impact occured at the Pentagon. This plane departed Dulles Airport and headed plainly west around the Kentucky and West Virginia area. Then, radars have trouble locating this plane because the transponder has been turned off in this airplane.
The next location of the plane, it was headed in the wrong direction towards Washington. A report from a base recalled that the plane was a BOEING 757 and it was flying fast and low.
The airplane enters the no-fly zone in Washington around 7,000 ft. above the Pentagon. The pilot might've used "autopilot" to control the plane at the moment. The plane makes a 360-degree turn, which brings the plane almost to the ground, then hits the west side of the Pentagon at a rate of 500 mph, maximizing the impact thereof.
After UAL 175 hit the South Tower, the fighter jets from Massachusetts were still 8 minutes away. All military jets were sent airborne but all of the four planes crashed before they could intercept them.
Many more details including quotes from the pilots in the article.
Railfan Pete.
UMMM...this is a rail forum.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nobody forces you to read anything.
<< UMMM...this is a rail forum. >>
<< Nobody forces you to read anything. >>
Now, now, Andee...let's not confuse the issue with fact. Don't you know this is an open board where anyone can discuss anything at any time? The fact that it's called "Subtalk" is not relevant. Maybe Dave P. could rename it "Open Mike Night?"
lol
whatever....
Ain't no IRT, BMT or PATH service in the Cortlandt St. area right now because of this, so it certainly qualifies as being of interest to NYC subway fans...
>UMMM...this is a rail forum.
I agree with Andee....
....besides.......shouldn't Petey be studying
for his PSAT's ???
Old News.
"After UAL 175 hit the South Tower, the fighter jets from Massachusetts were still 8 minutes away. All military jets were sent airborne but all of the four planes crashed before they could intercept them."
You know, a friend of mine brought up an interesting thought. Since we no longer have Air Force bases locally, jet fighters had to sent from afar. It seems the closing of local Air Force basesm was due to military budget slashing of years past. Kind of comforting that old Air Force bases, no longer needed are being turned into housing tracts or shopping malls. If there was a local base at the ready, maybe those airliners may have been shot down sacrificing a hundred or so passengers sparing 5000 people in office towers.
Maybe it may be a wise idea for the Pentagon to re-activate Floyd Bennett Field as an active Air Force base. The reason, NYC was and still will be a target. Let's see if the NIMBYs will bitch about this idea.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
After UAL 175 hit the South Tower, the fighter jets from Massachusetts were still 8 minutes away. All military jets were sent airborne but all of the four planes crashed before they could intercept them.
You know, a friend of mine brought up an interesting thought. Since we no longer have Air Force bases locally, jet fighters had to sent from afar. It seems the closing of local Air Force basesm was due to military budget slashing of years past. Kind of comforting that old Air Force bases, no longer needed are being turned into housing tracts or shopping malls. If there was a local base at the ready, maybe those airliners may have been shot down sacrificing a hundred or so passengers sparing 5000 people in office towers.
A nearby Air Force Base might have saved the south tower, but would have made no difference as far as the north tower was concerned. It wasn't until the American Airlines plane hit the north tower that anyone would have realized that this was a kamikaze mission rather than a "regular" hijacking. Surely no one from Bush on down would have given a shoot-down order before the first impact.
Also remember the battles over the military within New York during the Vietnam era and extending well into the Homeport fight in Staten Island in the 1980s -- to the military, New York was one of the least hospitable places to put a base, and until 8:48 a.m. on 9/11 there would have been a significant number of politicians in the N.Y. metropolitan area who wouldn't have wanted one to be anywhere near their community, because no one could foresee the need for a rapid deployment force to shoot down commercial airliners.
Hello,
Air National Guard units were responsible for home defense before 9/11. New York gets the whole east coast. They weren't on anything less then a 30 minute alert (or have been since the end of the cold war).
Nothing could have saved the towers even if the base was on Staten Island.
This isn't hypothetical......what happens when the last three classes for C/I may have a lot of 100% scorers because the written test was eliminated and all that was left is oral/practical??? Does the system use SSI numbers, age or what??? Peter
As explained earlier...earliest postmark.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK.......I have one of the earliest postmarks for C/I but 1250 Broadway stuck me on 'medical hold' and I was very God Graced to get into the 'second to last' class. So, is my seniority based on that class (of 43) or my position in the exams/posting? I'm trying to prepare myself for the NEXT pick. Peter
Don't forget Veterans points, you can score 110%!!
I have 2 questions to ask you guys 1-If I purchase a 1 Day Fun Pass, does it have to be used that day, or could I use it the following day. 2-I have reservations in 2 hotels in Queens for this weekend. One is the Ramada out in Corona at 37th Ave & 114th St, The other is LIC at 38th and Hunters Point Ave, both say they are 2 blocks from the Subway. I looked at my Queens Bus Map and it looks like the 7. What is the better place to stay, and easier and safer walk to the subway. I have until Friday 9AM to cancle one of them Thanks in advance
Answer to number 1 is no. It does have to be used before the expiration date, though.
The Fun Pass is valid until 3am on the date following the date of first use. It doesn't matter when it was purchased (as long as the expiration date hasn't passed -- but that's usually a year or more after purchase).
I buy most of my Fun Passes online. There's a $15 minimum order, so I generally by four Fun Passes at a time. Unlike the ones sold by the machines, they come wrapped in plastic, so I don't lose track of my various types of MetroCard. (The cards themselves are indistinguishable. If you do have multiple unwrapped cards, I strongly recommend marking them so you can tell them apart or else you're bound to use the pay-per-ride card after you've started a Fun Pass or accidentally swipe an unused Fun Pass at the very end of the day.)
Just a question,
I would guess you live in the city (you mention 86 on the #1 is your home station, I believe), so why would you not buy and use a $17 or $63 card? I find the $17 card was so great, I got my $17 value in one day. I now use the $63 as I get it through my job as part of Transit check. But the idea of buying pay per ride if you live in the city (unless it is for an occasional out of town visitor) seems to be a poor value.
Piggo
maybee he dosn't take the subway often so a unlimmited ride card wouldn't be a good value.
I don't ride the subway every day. I once used a 7-day pass (that is, for one week, not just one use). I often use Fun Passes. But if I'm only making a single round trip, pay-per-ride is my best value (especially if I "cheat" and take the bus there and subway back).
But thanks for the suggestion.
This was in another thread however since there is a good chance that thread will go down the tubes I posted it here all words in quotes are those of Railfan Pete.
"It is the Board Chairman, Vice
President, President, and office workers who make the difference and give orders to people like TD to fix and modify
whatever is needed to run the system properly."
Train Dude is field management. Field management are the most important people in any system. Most of the office workers are
just political hack whose only qualifications are knowing someone in office. It is people in field management who know about
the subway they are the ones who make many of the calls not some hack sitting in and office on Jay street playing on his
computer surfing the web.
"(And don't say "No" like an immature person, please.)"
So anyone who has the nerve to disagree with you is immature or is the devil making me do it again.
Amen
Field management are the most important people in any system.
I think the most important people in any system are those who do the work. More specifically, the janitors and maintainence guys. Have you ever stopped to think how shitty things would get if it wasn't for the tireless effort of janitors?
Same goes for truck drivers, delivery men and those guys who empty the dumpsters.
I greet everyone I have contact with...it's just a change in my life. You're right....the ladies and gentleman who take care of our shops and lockers make us a home. Peter
The payroll clerk is the most important. >G<
Who makes the subway run? Why, the squirrel in its cage, of course!
I am debating with a friend on the difference between light rail and heavy rail systems. I thought it was that light rail used overhead wires and heavy rail used a 3rd rail but my friend sent my some pics to prove me wrong.
If anyone knows, can you please tell me what the difference is.
Thank You
The lines between 'light rail' and 'heavy rail' have become blurred. At one time, you could probably safely state that a heavy rail system was one that had high-level platform boarding, while light rail systems used low platforms. Now, however, there are true light-rail systems that use high platforms too.
Jim D.
While the line has blurred, some things DO flag light rail as light rail.
-The line runs on city streets.
-The line uses rail that weighs less than 100 pounds per yard.
-Traffic light/or un-protected grade crossings.
Heavy Rail is flagged by:
-3rd rails (also used on interurbans).
-Complete grade and RoW seperation.
The most operative distinction may well be 'weight of rail' and the "withstand" figures for impact. There are catenary "subway" systems Cleveland for example, third rail powered "heavy rail" w/grade crossings and easy access for stupid pedestrians (Ravenswood Branch of CTA). heavy rail was an IMHO lousy neoligism for subway/elevateds meant to play along with Light Rail (trolley cars)
The difference depends on how much you spend per mile :).
I'm not sure of the exact differences, but I do know this. The FRA does not permit "light rail" to operate on trackage which also may carry traditional "heavy rail" freight. I believe this has to do with the weight and crash resistance of the vehicles involved. Harrisburg, PA has modified their proposal for rail mass transit towards "heavy rail," since the West Shore segment would likely share ROW with Norfolk Southern.
I usually think of "heavy rail" passenger service as your commuter lines and Amtrak. It runs on traditional railroad right-of-ways, which may or may not also carry freight. The cars are longer and heavier than "light rail vehicles."
"Light Rail" runs on dedicated passenger-only ROWs, which were never part of the traditional railroad companies' lines. (This does not count ROWs that were abandoned and rebuilt for light rail, such as the southern part of HBLR, or PATH from JSQ to NWK.) The cars are lighter and shorter in order to navigate tight curves on city streets or tighter dedicated ROWs. It includes trolleys, trams, and subways.
I guess the main differences are the present or historical use of the ROW for freight as well as passenger traffic (the potential for multiple use of the right-of-way) and the size and weight of the passenger cars and locomotives.
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Unlike in Montreal or Toronto, NYC is intriguing because, based on my far away understanding, private bus companies operate public transit routes in the city. Can anybody provide me with more details? For example,
a) are these companies subsidized by the MTA or some other gov't agency?
b) do they charge the same fare as MTA NYCT (and accept MetroCards)?
c) are there transfer privileges between the private bus companies and NYCT bus and subway?
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Try bus talk or the NYDOT web site
a) They are subsidized by the NYCDOT
b) The MTA fare is $1.50. The private charge the same fare during busy times. 6am-10am and 3pm-7pm Weekdays. And $1 cash fare all other times. If a person uses a metrocard, (yes, they could use a Metrocard) it charges $1.50.
c) With a Metrocard one could transfer from bus-train, train-bus or bus-bus. with the cash fare they could only transfer bus-bus.
Metro Magazine, in their top 50 bus agencies, reports NYDOT as amoung the group. However NYDOT just supplies the buses to the private companies and does not operate any buses as NYDOT.
Others have already addressed most of you questions, so I'll try not to repeat ...
a) are these companies subsidized by the MTA or some other gov't agency?
They are private corporations, i.e. I work for a person vs. the gov.
nycDOT has issued "frachises" to several companies to operate specific routes in NYC.
b) do they charge the same fare as MTA NYCT (and accept MetroCards)?
Asked & answered
c) are there transfer privileges between the private bus companies and NYCT bus and subway?
Asked & answered
Mr t employee of Queens Surface Corp.
About a dozen regular SubTalkers are already using my messageboard in anticipation of SubTalk's temporary closing.
If you would like to visit please click the link below.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway -- Message Board
SubTalk is closing? Why?
- Lyle Goldman
Never mind. I just saw the notice.
Someone please help. What are current car assignments? Where are all the R-46s that were assigned to the R? I can understand bolstering M service with R-40s from the N, but methinks some or all of those are off the diamond Q. Which is now running hippos from the D meaning circle Q, which is why the circle Q needs R-32s? Which came from where? The N? And the E, sending the R46s there? Why all the moving? Is any of the above speculation even close to correct? And what the hell was that train I saw going up Nostrand Ave: Interior strip maps from the 1, side signs reading 3 to 148 over to blank (where 14th is supposed to be, but oddly absent), and rear destination sign reading 2. (Hey, why can you still scroll R-40s to let you off at Crescent St. on the J, but no one can get a 3 train signed 14th? Weird.) Someone please help me out.
Hello: The World Trade Center was destroyed on 9/11/01. Haven't you heard? The N & R lines are suspended with the W and Q subbing in Queens with the M & J subbing in Brooklyn. The #1 line has a structural collapse at Cortlandt St., so it now goes to Brooklyn with the #3 cut back to 14th St. So the longer #1 line borrows cars from the shortened #3. Operations people decided to run R46 cars on the E which left R32's for the Q coming out of Queens. Now, do you understand the reason for the moving?
Guess 14th St. is not on the roll!
Bill, You talk down to me for why? Obviously the changes are because of the WTC. But I don't know that the descision was made to move the R-46s to the E so the R-32s can ride the Q. I haven't seen an E train since the attack, and I thought it would be easier to ask on line than to needlessly stand around waiting for a train I don't need to take. At least the R-46s on the E wouldn't have been mean to me, like you, Bill. And for all your talking down to me, you still haven't told me if the R-40s on the M came off the N or the diamond Q.
The elimination of some lines and the increase in the length of others will cause different car assignments. The R40 slants normally on the N & Q are part of a pool of slant R40's assigned to CIYD. Unlike on the IRT, BMT/IND cars are usually not assigned to one line exclusively (except R44's on the A & H), rather to all lines operating out of that particular yard. R40 slants can and are used on either line at the discretion of the yardmaster in CIYD. More slants are now needed on the M than normally used on the N, so this is why there are fewer slants on the Q diamond currently.
That's not entirely accurate. If it were, we'd be seeing R-32's, R-40's, R-68's, and R-68A's on both Q's and the W. In fact, the W is almost exclusively R-68A (I think an occasional R-68 creeps in), the diamond-Q is almost exclusively R-40 (with an occasional R-68 or R-68A), and the circle-Q had been exclusively R-68 (with an occasional R-68A) but now has many R-32's as well (thanks to Jamaica).
The same goes for other yards. The F, for instance, never runs R-32's even though they're available in the same yard.
We could if needed in a crunch since they are in the same yard. For example, some months ago, slant R40's were not uncommon on the W
How does on differentiate betwwn the R-32's from Jamaica, as opposed to those from C.I.? Are there markings or signs on the cars themselves?
I don't think (then agian, it's just me...) that the N took R40 slants from the diamond Q. Every diamond Q that I have seen is still and R40. I think that all the R40s on the M are from the N. Somehow, those with the R42s make up a nice fleet that makes my waiting shorter.
There are R68 and R68A's running on the diamond, few and far between and changes each day but they are there.
P.S. Someone please help me out who is not mean and from Maspeth. Bill, why don't you use your bluster to explain why operations didn't just move the R-46s from the R to the circle Q, leaving the E alone. Simpler and less shuffling. Try just being nice and answering questions in a reasonable manner. And, how does putting on more circle Q service with R-32s due to it's new longer route necesitate putting hippos on the diamond Q? Unless the R-40s on the M are from the diamond Q. But hey, why don't we just send the M R-32s and leave the diamond Q rolling stock alone? Theres a reason out there, but Bill doesn't seem to know it--if he does, he'd rather flame with "duh, why don't you go look at pictures of the skyline?" than actually tell me.
Only TA suits can explain the reason why the Q got the Jamaica R32's and the E got the R46. Not a problem shuffling as they all come out of the same yard......R68's are on the diamond Q since many slant R40's are used on the M.........Again, the decision on what is running on the M (R40 or R32) is made by TA suits. I apologise for my arrogance. In no way can this board get into the minds of TA suits, all that can be done here is to report what is going on out on the road. Some questions of the TA can best be answered by a letter to 370 Jay St.
Bill, your appology is very much accepted. Thank you for all your help.
Well I probably won't be back before 12 noon tomorrow so I'll speak to you all when Subtalk re-opens, if you don't participate in the alternative message boards. For those unhappy about the temporary hiatus, all things deserve a break sometimes. See you in November, Subtalk (and Bustalk).
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
Well, I am unhappy about the "hiatus." We all are. Dave has never before shut down this forum, even when he went on vacation. Why should he start now? I think we can all agree he is being unreasonable.
speak for yourself, buddy. since when can you gauge the thoughts and feelings of hundreds of people by staring at your computer screen?
Gee unreasonable??
The man runs this thing out of the goodness of his heart...
I'm not going to say anymore....
Oh it did shut down and even failed on its own when Dave went on trips..
I don't think he is being unreasonable at all. The site belongs to him. It costs a certain amount of money out of his pocket to run this board. He will be out of his apartment yet you expect the site to be kept operational while no one is in the apartment for a 2 week period? Finally, shutting it down will prevent hackers from posting worthless flame laced with vulgarity which could not be deleted since Dave would not be around to police it. Have a great trip Dave!
The site is not hosted in my apartment.
Tonight (Tuesday), at about 7:00, I was taking the Lexington Avenue Express downtown toward Brooklyn, when I heard that no trains on that line were going past Brooklyn Bridge Station. Does anyone here know exactly why they did that? It was very inconvenient.
- Lyle Goldman
I heard something about a missing piece of 3rd rail.
What will happen to the display options? As of now we can view up to the past two weeks. But if you're gone for 3 weeks, we'll have no posts to view. Can anything be done?
See you all in November. BTW, November 3 is a dark anniversary for those who love streetcars in Baltimore. On November 3, 1963, car 7407 pulled into Irvington Carhouse at 6:34 AM and closed out 104 years of streetcar service in Baltimore.
Novermber 3, 2001 marks 38 years since that fateful day.
7407 is alive and well at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.
At least you have the modern version in your light rail, which actually does some (pseudo-) street-running downtown. We poor New Yorkers have no streetcars to speak of! :O(
A train operator reported presence of white powder on the platform at Camden City Hall station at 11:06 Tuesday morning. The station was closed until 1:45 and passengers were bused (presumably from Broadway station) to 8th & Market in Philly until City Hall station was reopened at 1:45
The powder was construction residue.
So that's what I heard. As I was leaving Philly yesterday on Amtrak Train 174 I kept picking up massive traffic on the PATCO frequency as far north Croydon. I really coudln't pick out what they were saying, but it sounded like a big problem. People seriously need to stop freaking out. Powders founds at off peak times at off peak stations in off peak cities is NOT going to be Anthrax. I know it sucks, but most people are simply not worth being a target.
...but most people are simply not worth being a target.
Speak for yourself! :-)
Seriously, though, you're right. I think the media has blown all of this way out of proportion. While I absolutely do not advocate censorship of any kind, I do believe that the media could use some more restraint when deciding whether or not to report things that could easily evolve into mass hysteria.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is no reason not the requrire all mail sent from New Jersey to have a retrun address.
Well I took some pictures to compete in that photo contest and I got some great photos of the F line during yesterdays storm at night. It came out better then I had hoped. I plan to go to the Concourse Yard and take some pictures, and hopefully get some incredible Thunder Storm photos of the Rockaway Line.
I hope these pictures are cool to you guys when you see them. All I need now is another Lightning Storm
Well See you all back In November, Have a good pumpkin day (lol) wish you all a safe month.
Dave,
Thanks for all you have done with this website and board. Many of us find the information and discussion boards interesting and fun. I would have never imagined something like this existing 30 years ago when as a kid I first became facinated with the subways. Have a safe, enjoyable trip...
Marc
Thanks, and thanks to all who have posted similar sentiments... there will be new stuff for the site when I get back, too!
Ditto. I've been out of the loop for a bit (hanging out at Harry's site mostly).
In any event, have a good trip.
BMTman
Today is the start of the big York Train Meet with the shows at the various motel ballrooms and parking lots. The show at the Fairgrounds starts Friday morning.
I guess that you don't enjoy the show as much as I do! In fact I am leaving right now.
I will be in the city next week on my annual getaway, topping it off with my college Homecoming on the 27th. Hope to see some of you while railfanning on the 25th. If you see someone in a Mets jacket at the railfan window, it could very well be me.
I may pop up on The Other Side of the Tracks as well.
P. S. Happy belated birthday to Mister R-10, William Padron.
Dave have a safe trip.
Well now is your chance to catch up and read ALL the posts here on Subtalk. Since nothing new will be posted we can all play catch up.
I agree I hope that the Archives will still be up.
Hey Stef, you can add this delivery to your log book. Saw them being pushed to the E180 street barn at 1:35 this morning while on a northbound 2 train. I saw other cars being delivered as well but i forgot their numbers.