Will tickets be selling "at the gate" next Saturday?
1SF9, a humble out of towner with a
deeeeeeelayed mail system... :L
I don't see why not. We've got over 50 tickets sold, but I think we can squeeze in a few more.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I would like the address of the ERA and the New York Division. Thanks!
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incoroporated
PO Box 3323
New York NY 10163-3323
New York Division, Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
To David:
Will there be one in the future that you know of, because I can't make it next Saturday.
Thanks
Neil Feldman
NNEILEF@AOL.COM
We try to alternate tours among facilities so that people don't get tired of being asked to go to the same place year after year. However, if there is a groundswell of support for another trip, we'll certainly consider it.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
We kicked off the official field trip by meeting in the Great Hall at Union Station at 3:00. It was me, Bill Steil (wsteil), Bob Vogel (chuchubob), and Ed Sachs.
We headed over to the Quincy "L" stop a couple blocks east of Union Station, and after a few minutes, caught the Evanston Express up to Howard. Being the beginnings of evening rush hour, we didn't have that great of a view out the front because the train was fairly crowded.
At Howard, we transferred to the Skokie Swift and rode that out to Dempster and back. We then caught the next Evanston Express back to the Loop. Because we were heading inbound this time, we got excellent vantage points at the railfan windows on both the Skokie and Evanston trains.
Both the Evanston and Skokie runs were nice and fast, with hardly any slow zones on the express portions. On the outbond Skokie run, we got a good chuckle at the sight of an SUV that hadn't quite stopped in time at one of the grade crossings. It was well off the tracks, but the arm of the crossing gate was resting literally on his windshield! Better than getting run over by a train, I suppose.
When our Evanston Express train got to Merchandise Mart, we got off and transferred to the next Ravenswood train and rode that back to Quincy. (Normally we would take the Evanston train around the Loop, but we had to be back at Union Station to meet some more SubTalkers.)
We got off at Quincy, walked back over to Union Station, and met up with Irwin Davis (chicagomotorman), John Bredin, and Dave Steckler. Around 6:00 we headed down to the Clinton stop on the Blue Line and rode the Douglas "L" out to 54th/Cermak and back.
We got off at UIC-Halsted, took a look at the new station house there, and then had a huge dinner at Greek Islands -- complete with the flaming slab of cheese -- in the nearby Greektown neighborhood.
We then walked back over towards Union Station, where Ed Sachs and John Bredin left the group in order to catch their Metra trains back home. Dave Steckler headed back to the Holiday Inn where he was staying. The rest of us walked over to the Club Quarters hotel and hung out in the lobby for a while to mostly talk about trains, baseball, and malicious gossip about our fellow SubTalkers.
After about an hour or so, we decided to call it a night. Bob and Bill headed up to their rooms, and Irwin and I headed over to the Red Line for the journey home.
We plan on getting an early start tomorrow with a hearty breakfast at Lou Mitchell's before carpooling out to the Illinois Railway Museum.
Watch for more updates as the weekend progresses!
-- David
Chicago, IL
We started off the morning with a huge breakfast at Lou Mitchell's near Union Station. It was me, Ed, Bill, Bob, Dave, and John. Since there were six of us and three of us had cars (including Ed' minivan), we decided to head out to Cumberland where John and I would park our cars in the Park-n-Ride garage and then we'd all pile into Ed's minivan.
On the way out to IRM, we took a short detour over to the Fox River Trolley Museum in South Elgin, a couple miles south of the tollway. We got there before the museum officially opened, but took a walk around and got some photos of their small collection of mostly CTA, South Shore and North Shore cars that were stored outside. Fox River can be thought of as sort of an appetizer before the main course at IRM.
We arrived at IRM shortly after 11:00 AM, and took a walk around before meeting up with Frank Hicks at the Depot Street trolley stop. Jim Kestner and his friend met up with us briefly before they continues on their way. Frank was kind enough to take a huge chunk out of his schedule to give us a VERY extensive tour of the museum, including the electric, steam, trolley bus, and deisel departments. The tour also included several "behind-the-scenes" areas of the various car shops. Frank's knowledge of the equipment out at IRM is astounding, and his giving us the tour is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Frank!
After leaving the deisel barn, we grabbed the PCC "Green Hornet" trolley around the loop before heading over to the dead storage area in search of the scrapped MBTA PCC's. Sure enough, we found them all the way at the end of the yard in pretty sad shape. One had its door open, so a couple of us made our way inside and looked around.
We then walked over to the station on the mainline track, and caught a two-car train of CTA single units 30 and 41 on a regular revenue run. I introduced our party to Pete Vesic, who has sort of "adopted" the CTA single units and who has done most of the restoration and maintenance work on them. He offered to take us out on the CTA cars once they completed their revenue operations, so we stuck around and took him up on his offer.
We took the two-car train out to the siding (about halfway out on the 5-mile mainline) and broke the train. We left car 41 on the siding and then raised the pantograph on car 30. (Car 41 has the typical trolley pole for museum operations, while car 30 has the original pantograph from its Skokie Swift days. Normally car 30 gets its power from a clever arrangement of jumpers from car 41. But with the pan up, the car was back to its "true" form.)
A couple of the guys got off and took photos of car 30, and then we all got back on and took the car out to the end of the line and back a couple times, using the pan. (Normally the pans don't mix well with the museum trolley wire, but it's less of an issue out on the mainline.) During this whole process, each of us who so desired got some time at the controller, and got the car up to about 40 MPH or so each time. Very cool!
Special thanks to Frank Hicks and Pete Vesic for a most excellent day at the Illinois Railway Museum!!
We finally left the museum around 7:30 or so, and stopped back at Cumberland to pick up our cars. John Bredin had to leave us at this point to head home, but the rest of us headed over to Tedino's Pizzeria here in my neighborhood for an excellent meal of Chicago-style deep-dish pizza. Also very cool!
Ed gave Bill and Bob a ride back to the hotel downtown, and I retired to my apartment down the street. We plan on meeting tomorrow at 9:45 AM at the Jackson stop on the Red Line where we'll hook up with Irwin (chicagomotorman), who will be operating on the Red Line.
Stay tuned for more updates, and watch for many photos to be posted online soon!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Unfortunately there was no steam this weekend. Due to recent new FRA regulations regarding steam operations at tourist railroads, no steam locos were in use. Lots of diesels and elecric cars, though.
We also had the pleasure of touring the trolley bus barn and receiving an in-depth explanation of the goings-on at IRM by a fellow who is restoring the trolley busses. IRM has been collecting trolley busses for almost 30 years. They have the only operating trolley bus line in a tourist museum in the United States, with about a dozen tolley busses (they call them trolley coaches) in their collection, and about a half-dozen diesel and gas busses. John and I rode on Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority (Dayton, Ohio) E-800 Flyer #925 trolley bus (built in 1977) around the bus loop. Fun!
And get this, subway fans...this fellow (who loves the NYC subway system) is arranging for the IRM to aquire two Redbirds! Most likely they will be R-28's and/or R-29's. IRM already has a Brill SEPTA subway car; I forget what SEPTA designates the model but it similar in size and configuration to a BMT Standard. The museum is in the process of raising funds (donations) to acquire the cars.
Most of us took lots of pictures this Field Trip and we'll be e-mailing them to David Cole for collection purposes; he'll forward them to Dave Pirmann for posting here on Subtalk. Look for them soon!
Nice to hear that Green Hornet 4391 was running on the loop. How was it? Did you "enter at rear", since it is a rear entrance PCC?
Yes, we did get in via the back door.
In typical IRM fashion, our tickets got punched by a volunteer acting as conductor and sitting at the conductor's station just ahead of the rear platform.
However, they do not stand on ceremony, and some people did enter through the front (exit) doors. The middle exit door wasn't working on Saturday.
-- Ed Sachs
On behalf of all of us who participated, I want to express a very hearty "Thank You" to David Cole for pulling this together.
-- Ed Sachs
Thank you Dave. It was a pleasure meeting all of you.
It was my pleasure!
Here's a sample of many photos taken so far this weekend:
From left to right: Me, John Bredin, Bill Steil (wsteil), Bob Vogel (chuchubob), Dave Steckler, and Frank Hicks at the Illinois Railway Museum.
Stay tuned for many more!
-- David
Chicago, IL
We started the morning today by meeting at the Jackson stop on the Red Line at around 9:45 AM. It was me, Dave, Bill, Bob and John, and we were to catch a southbound Red Line train being run by SubTalk's own Irwin Davis (chicagomotorman). He pulled in right on schedule, and we were treated to an excellent view (along with running commentary) down to 95th/Dan Ryan and then all the way back up to Howard. Special thanks to Irwin for putting up with a bunch of unruly railfans for part of your run, and for answering all our dumb questions!
Once we got to Howard, we waited for Irwin to finish up and sign off, and then all of us headed down to Byron's hot dog stand at Irving Park and Sheridan for some authentic Chicago-style hot dogs eaten outside in beautiful weather, with the Red Line "L" squealing around the Sheridan S-curve nearby. It simply does not get any better than that!
We hopped back on the Red Line and decided to explore the Orange Line, since Dave's flight would be leaving from Midway before long. We transferred to the Brown Line at Fullerton, and then to the Orange Line at Adams/Wabash. Once at Midway, we spent some time exploring the new terminal and its lousy connection with the Orange Line CTA station before seeing Dave off on his way.
We took the Orange Line back toward the Loop, and transferred at Roosevelt to the northbound Green Line. We rode the Green Line out to Harlem/Lake, stopping to explore the new Conservatory station, and then came back in to Clark/Lake. We then crossed over and took the Brown Line out to the end and back. At Belmont, Irwin left the group and headed home for some well-deserved rest.
Returning to the Loop, we got off at Quincy and walked over to Union Station as Bob had an Amtrak train to catch back to Philly. A short time later, we finally hooked up with Kevin Walsh, who had been missing in action most of the weekend due to some serious flight delays on Friday. (Kevin had been making constructive use of the weekend by exploring most of Chicago's nooks and crannys before meeting us.)
We then walked back over to Quincy and grabbed another Brown Line train up to Fullerton. Getting off at Fullerton, we walked over to the Pasta Bowl on Clark Street, a small Italion restaurant in my old stomping grounds of Lincoln Park. After dinner, John took off to head back home, while the three of us remaining (Kevin, Bill and myself) took a 36 Broadway bus back to the Loop. Once downtown, I gave sort of a mini-architectural tour of a few buildings near the hotel where Kevin and Bill were staying, and we talked in the hotel lobby for a while longer before calling it a night. Kevin and Bill headed up to their rooms, while I headed off to the Red Line and home.
We plan on getting a very early start tomorrow morning, meeting at Randolph Street Station at 6:45 AM to catch a Metra Electric train down to Hyde Park and back before taking the Blue Line out to O'Hare to see Kevin off.
Special thanks to all who have made this such a fun weekend so far... Stay tuned for the finall installment sometime tomorrow. Also, look for many photos from this weekend to be online soon!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Did you get a Nova LFS on the 36 Broadway Line? And while on your trip, Did you saw any LFS's?
I'd also like to thank Irwin for the fascinating running commentary on the Red line down to 95/Dan Ryan and up to Howard. A super nice guy who apparantly knows every station agent along the route!
Bryn Mawr is my home stop when I'm in Chicago at my aunt's. She lives a block south of that station, right on the corner of Catalpa and Winthrop; in fact, her building is right next to the L structure.
Wow, that's right in my neighborhood. I usually pass through that intersection as I'm driving around looking for a parking spot, as Catalpa is the first west-running street north of Foster. I live right at Foster and Sheridan myself. No L adjacent to my building, but at any given time there's about a half-dozen CTA busses idling outside my window. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
My aunt's building is the Chateau. AFAIK she's the last remaining original tenant, having lived there since March of 1967.
Let's see: Catalpa runs one way west; Balmoral is one-way east. Isn't Berwyn two-way?
Foster is where Lake Shore Drive ended before it was extended north to Hollywood Ave. in the 1950s. It is said that that extension ultimately doomed the famed Edgewater Beach Hotel, which was a block north at Berwyn. You're not in that 60-story triangular building by any chance, are you?
Isn't Berwyn two-way?
Depends, as Berwyn is a little weird. Berwyn is two-way for only a single block, between Broadway and Winthrop. (This is the block that contains the "L" stop, btw.) West of Broadway, Berwyn is one-way westbound. East of Winthrop, Berwyn is one-way eastbound.
You're not in that 60-story triangular building by any chance, are you?
No, that's about a block north of me and on the other side of Sheridan. I'm in the large red brick apartment building directly on the northwest corner of Foster and Sheridan, across Sheridan from the Dominick's grocery store and across Foster from the McDonald's. The building is of 1920's vintage, 8 floors tall, and has a floor plan shaped like an upper-case "E". That is, it has a long corridor at the rear, running parallel to the alley, with three wings perpendicular to Sheridan. There's a video store, a couple beauty parlors, and a greasy spoon restaurant on the ground floor.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Catalpa is also two-way between Winthrop and Broadway as it ducks beneath the L. Whenever we'd leave my aunt's apartment to get to Lake Shore Drive, we'd go down Winthorp to Berwyn, usually, or Foster.
I always wonder why they never bothered to reroute US 41 along Lake Shore Drive when it was extended north to Hollywood. IIRC US 41 still turns off at the Foster exit. My folks got thrown for a loop back in 1970 when we were headed to bunker down at my aunt and uncle's apartment on Sheridan Rd. They told my folks to "take US 41 and it'll lead you right to us." Well, my father turned off on Foster and headed up Sheridan Rd. They were a block or two north of Hollywood. We went right by the Edgewater Beach Hotel, which was being demolished at the time.
I'd like to second Dave's thanking of Irwin. Any field of endeavor could use employees like him. When we arrived at 95th (south end of his Red Line run), we had to wait for a train to leave the platform before we could pull in. Irwin cue'd the announcement that we were being delayed by a raised drawbridge.
I'd also like to second everybody's thanking of Dave Cole for organizing a terrific trip. For me, the "handle time" on Skokie Swift #41 and the trips with Irwin as the motorman on the Red Line were highlights of an outstanding SubTalk trip.
Of course, the camaraderie with everyone in the group made for a fun weekend.
Bob
No, we got one of the New Flyer low-floor busses on the Broadway route. The new Nova busses don't typically run out of North Park Garage, and in fact it's rather unusual to have even a New Flyer on the 36. Nine times out of ten, that route is usually stuck with the MAN bricks.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nova(lox) flyers are out of the Archer,79th, and 71st garages. Those are strange buses. Why in the world would you have a seat facing backwards in the back? The MAN bricks no longer travel the 36 Broadway. As of about 4 weeks ago, the route became "wheelchair accessible", with rts's and low floor flyers.
Whoops. Shows you how often I ride the 36 Broadway route, even though it's only two blocks away from my apartment.
I think the new Nova busses are pretty sharp-looking on the outside, but I agree with you about the weirdness of the seating arrangement. I much prefer the New Flyers myself.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Did you got a Photo of it?
No, not really. A) I see them everyday and have ridden them hundreds of times, so I don't really have any pressing need to take a photo of it, and B) I'm not particularly interested in busses to begin with. That's why you see me posting on SubTalk and not BusTalk. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I am back in the NY Groove as Ace Frehley would say, and thanks to David and all for a terrific Chicago visit.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can't believe this. I've seen your "Chicago Field Trip" listed on the Upcoming Events page for months now, but when I was planning my trip out to Milwaukee, I didn't think to look at the date of your trip. Anyhow, my father and I drove from upstate NY to Chicago on Saturday night. Took us 10 hours. We parked near Union Station at 8:00am Sunday morning and went for rides on the Blue Line and the Loop. It was great. My dad and I had never been on the loop before. I took a lot of pictures which hopefully I will post or submit to this site. We only had two hours on the L because the main reason of our trip was to go to the 1:05 PM CST Milwaukee Brewers game. We went to the game [Brewers lost :( ], stayed overnight in Milwaukee, and then drove home today.
We stopped in Cleveland on the way home. I took a lot of pictures of the light rail line cars going past the Amtrak station. I also got pictures of a passing Norfolk Southern freight and the westbound Pennsylvanian.
Ok, time for bed. Driving 1500+ miles, seeing a baseball game, and doing a few hours of railfanning all in 49 hours is a bit much. It was a lot of fun!
Today was the last day of our first SubTalk Chicago Field Trip. The four of us (Kevin Walsh, Bill Steil, John Bredin, and myself) got an early start by meeting down at Randolph Street Station and catching the 7:00 AM Metra Electric train down to Hyde Park. Once down there, we did some exploring of the neighborhood, including the Midway Plaissance, the University of Chicago campus, Frank Lloyd Wright's Robie House, and Rockefeller Chapel.
We grabbed the 8:40 train back downtown and then walked over to the Club Quarters hotel where Kevin was staying, as he was flying back to NYC early this afternoon and needed to check out and pick up his bags. We had a large breakfast next door at Elephant and Castle, a London-themed restaurant, and then caught the CTA Blue Line out to O'Hare. Since the group hadn't done any railfanning on the O'Hare branch yet, this worked out perfectly.
Kevin's wait in the line at O'Hare took less time than expected, so we took the opportunity to do some exploring of the dmoestic terminals at the airport, particularly the Helmut Jahn-designed Terminal 1. We took a look at the bright, airy concourses before heading down to the "reincarnation tunnel" that connects Concourse C to the rest of the terminal. (For those of you who have never flown United Airlines to Chicago, the "reincarnation tunnel" is an underground passage with multi-colored backlit walls and a dynamic neon light display along the ceiling.) Once we got to Concourse C, we turned around and went back the way we came.
By this time Kevin's plane was preparing to board, so we shook hands with the great Forgotten New York webmaster and parted ways.
Our SubTalk field trip ended incongruously back at the CTA Blue Line terminal, when I got seperated from John and Bill when I had to go back to the farecard vending machine and add some cash to my farecard. The machine took my $10 bill but never added any value to the card, so I spent the next 10-15 minutes flagging down the station agent and filling out a form before he could give me a replacement farecard. Arrrgh!
By the time I got down to the platform level, John and Bill were gone. John had planned to get off at Cumberland anyway to head home, and as far as I know Bill had some friends to meet here in town before heading back home tomorrow.
So, thus endeth our field trip. I headed back home to write this final installment before I try catching up on some much-needed sleep.
John and Bill: I didn't get a chance to say it in person, but I enjoyed meeting you guys and I hope we can have another one of these field trips again next summer. It was a fun weekend!
Also, special thanks to Frank Hicks, Pete Vesic, and Irwin Davis for making this a very enjoyable weekend!
To those who were on the field trip, feel free to fill in any things I missed or to share your own experiences. I'll take this little chronicle along with whatever else anybody has to add, include the photos and captions, and then create a full report for Dave Pirmann to add to the site.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In no particular order, David(Cole),Dave(Steckler), John,Bill,Ed,and Bob, it is a great feeling to know that I made new freinds this weekend. Kevin, I am dissappointed I didn't get a chance to meet you, as a person who even being a native Chicagoan, I am fasinated by New York, and enjoy your web site. and Pete even though we may have had a difference of opinion, maybe sometime we can meet sit down and iron out our differences. In the words of that famous American, Rodney King,"Can't we all just get along?"
I'm also disappointed I didn't get to meet Kevin. I really enjoy his Forgotten NY website -- I tune in there regularly to see what new stuff he's posted.
-- Ed Sachs
>>>>even being a native Chicagoan, I am fasinated by New York, and enjoy your web site.<<<
Thanks and rest assured Forgotten is back on the air, er, the web, after a one-week absence...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now to hunt down some Chicago references...can www.forgotten-chicago.com be far ahead?
Now to hunt down some Chicago references...can www.forgotten-chicago.com be far ahead?
Nice to see Chicago had that much of an impact on you. :-)
Also nice to see you made it back to NYC without any serious delays, especially after what you went through on Friday. It was great meeting you... I have a huge amount of respect for anybody who obviously enjoys urban exploration as much as you do.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>>I have a huge amount of respect for anybody who
obviously enjoys urban exploration as much as you do. <<<
The CTA line by line and station for station is an impressive accomplishment in its own right!
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Our SubTalk field trip ended incongruously back at the CTA Blue Line terminal, when I got seperated from John and Bill when I had to go back to the farecard vending machine and add some cash to my farecard. The machine took my $10 bill but never added any value to the card, so I spent the next 10-15 minutes flagging down the station agent and filling out a form before he could give me a replacement farecard. Arrrgh! By the time I got down to the platform level, John and Bill were gone. John had planned to get off at Cumberland anyway to head home, and as far as I know Bill had some friends to meet here in town before heading back home tomorrow."
I saw you head back to the Transit Card machines to add money to your card, so I stopped to get a soda out of the vending machine. But I didn't know about the machine eating your money, and thought you had finished your Transit Card business and gotten past me to the train while the soda machine was refusing my dollar. :^)
"John and Bill: I didn't get a chance to say it in person, but I enjoyed meeting you guys and I hope we can have another one of
these field trips again next summer. It was a fun weekend!"
Ditto 100 times over! Thanks, Dave, for putting together a great trip!
Dave,
I thought that maybe you went back for another session in the reincarnation tunnel!! lol!
I was on the platform when I saw John at the vending machine. Another O'Hare bound train arrived and disgorged a full load of pax on the plat and escalators. So I waited off to the side until the wave passed, as another train left for the city. Waited a bit more and then took a seat on the next train out, just as John arrived with his soda. John checked the other cars while we waited. I had some people who were by now waiting for me, so we left on the next train out. John got off at Cumberland to get his car; I rode into the Loop, transferred to the Red Line to Howard, finally to the Purple line to Linden.
Tuesday morning found me at the Art Institute (free on Tuesdays). Later, I took the Orange line to Midway, toured the scenic Midway parking structure, and caught my flight at Gate C5 (in the old 1960s section of the terminal). What a mess! The gate had the capacity of a commuter airliner, not a 737 that was full. It was standing room only, all the way down to Gate 4A.
Dave, thanks for an enjoyable weekend!
Nice job of planning everything. Good to meet Bob, John, Ed, Dave S., Irwin, Kevin - it was one great group!
caught my flight at Gate C5 (in the old 1960s section of the terminal)
Bill -
You're being generous here. The old Midway terminal building dates back to the beginning of commerical air traffic in Chicago (1930s or 40s). It was already old and grubby in the 60s.
Enjoyed meeting you.
-- Ed Sachs
Do they still play that same music in that reincarnation tunnel that I remember from 1997 and 1998? It sounds like a continuous dominant seventh C chord or a C whole tone scale.
Yes, they do. Along with the ever-repeating "The moving walkway is now ending. Please look down." Except this time it's a male voice. Up until sometime recently it was a female voice.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The walkways at Denver International Airport have similar announcements: "Caution: this walkway is nearing its end. Please watch your step. Thank you." Only it sounds so mushy, it's difficult to understand.
I was looking through the r36 pictures, and i found 2 pictures of CB12, And 1 of CB15, why were these cars renumbered?
These were "Brake Test" numbers, they used them back in 1969-70 when they were testing brake equipment; done so to differentiate them from the rest of the fleet. R36 Mainline cars had them and so did some of the R40M when first delivered. They used numbers like "ASxx" and "CBxx". Confusing? Yes. You can see some of the R40M wearing these numbers in the R40 photo section.
wayne
Well, it's there, graded and there are rails today. No houses need be taken to build it, and few businesses... to build the stations I'm not so sure, but if they're built underground as on the N line in Bensonhurst, that could be minimised.
Having walked much of its length as a teenager, I think that it could be done.
Why NOT build a Subway there, from the N/RR line to JFK?
Or would an Expressway be better, as Robert Moses has suggested?
Or just leave the right-of-way alone and practically unused, the province of stray dogs, junkies, and a huge land speculation investment for the LIRR?
Probably the biggest technical problem is similar to that of using Lower Montauk--carving out two subway tracks on a right-of-way of varying width while maintaining freight service. The Bay Ridge Line is much more important to the region as a freight link than a passenger line.
From a passenger perspective, you need to ask who would be served and why would they want to use it. The most likely hook up would take people west from the Canarsie Line--that link has the capacity for additional trains, and an easy connection could be made. But if this service went out to Bay Ridge, you have to ask who would use it in preference to more direct service by the N, W, F, Q and IRT services.
But if this service went out to Bay Ridge, you have to ask who would use it in preference to more direct service by the N, W, F, Q and IRT services.
What IRTs go to Bay Ridge?
No IRT's go to Bay Ridge
IRT doesn't go to Bay Ridge. I was naming the lines that serve the same area as the Bay Ridge branch and asking why people would use a Bay Ridge line service in preference to existing services.
A passenger line along the Bay Ridge would enable Sunset Park/Bay Ridge customers to get to points east in Brooklyn w/o the round-about travel plans via Coney Island or Downtown Brooklyn (Atlantic/Pacific transfer).
BUT at this point the Bay Ridge Line is leased to New York & Atlantic Railway which renders any plans for passenger service moot for a least until their lease is up.
BMTman
> at this point the Bay Ridge Line is leased to New York &
> Atlantic Railway which renders any plans for passenger
> service moot for a least until their lease is up.
Eminent domain.
That's how the government takes away people's houses so that developers can build new mega-stores like Ikea.
As far as NY & Atlantic, I don't feel sorry for them and their one or two freight trains a day.
Hogging that prime real estate is practically criminal, which I think about every time I'm stuck in stopped traffic trying to get to JFK, when all I SHOULD have to do is walk down the block to the Bedford Avenue/Brooklyn College station that SHOULD be there... plotz and read a book.
"As far as NY & Atlantic, I don't feel sorry for them and their one or two freight trains a day. "
That could change if and when a cross harbor freight tunnel is built. Sending freight under a cross harbor tunnel instead of sending them up to Selkirk and back down would greatly increase freight traffic form the Bay Ridge Branch.
Now will I live to see the construction of this tunnel ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It could happen if CSX and Norfolk Southern, the two lines who would benefit the most from the tunnel if it were to be built, could be convinced to do the construction and not wait for the states of NY or NJ to do it for them. What do you think about that one? They could probably get it built in less time, under budget and in better shape than if the Port Authority were to do it. Guess what? No graft, either. If the need is there, it will get built. The right eyes must get opened first.
The tunnel will have to go hand-in-hand with a deepwater port on the Brooklyn shoreline for either of the rail companies to see a financial justification for the tunnel -- as it stands right now, there's a market for moving freight into New York, but because manufacturing in the city has droppped so much over the last 40 years, there's nothing to send the other way but empty boxcars (other than through trains from New England using the Hell Gate connection and traveling through East New York). A deepwater port would mean items imported from Europe, South America, Africa and other places could dock in Brooklyn and unload goods to be shipped out to the rest of the country.
Even so, the railroad companies will probably be looking for state/federal cash before then invest their own $$$ in the new crossing. With the reactivation of the CSX bridge to Staten Island, New York could eliminate New Jersey as a partner and go it alone with CSX and/or Norfolk Southern on a Narrows Tunnel, though that could create a fight within the Port Authority over using its funds, if New Jersey thought it would gain less from a S.I.-Elizabeth crossing compared to a Brooklyn-Bayonne connection.
The tunnel will have to go hand-in-hand with a deepwater port on the Brooklyn shoreline for either of the rail companies to see a financial justification for the tunnel -- as it stands right now, there's a market for moving freight into New York, but because manufacturing in the city has droppped so much over the last 40 years, there's nothing to send the other way but empty boxcars (other than through trains from New England using the Hell Gate connection and traveling through East New York). A deepwater port would mean items imported from Europe, South America, Africa and other places could dock in Brooklyn and unload goods to be shipped out to the rest of the country.
It's doubtful that the Port Authority or any of the shipping lines would be particularly interested in a major expansion of the Brooklyn seaport facilities given the huge investment in Port Newark and Elizabeth. In addition, Brooklyn's existing container facilities are probably operating at or near their maximum capacity given the shortage of landside storage and handling space. Take a look sometime at the amount of space occupied by the Newark and Elizabeth container facilities. Adding even one-quarter of that amount to the Brooklyn facilities would gobble up many commercial and residential blocks. The public outcry would be staggering.
Even so, the railroad companies will probably be looking for state/federal cash before then invest their own $$$ in the new crossing. With the reactivation of the CSX bridge to Staten Island, New York could eliminate New Jersey as a partner and go it alone with CSX and/or Norfolk Southern on a Narrows Tunnel, though that could create a fight within the Port Authority over using its funds, if New Jersey thought it would gain less from a S.I.-Elizabeth crossing compared to a Brooklyn-Bayonne connection.
If anything, reactivating the bridge to Staten Island makes a cross-harbor tunnel even less likely, as it provides rail access to the Howland Hook seaport. A Brooklyn seaport's raison d'etre is now less acute.
The advantage Brooklyn supposedly has over the other sites is its proximity to the Hudson-New York Bay deep channel, which the next generation of "super cargo ships" is supposed to require. When Jerold Nadler and others began making the case for the Brooklyn site, the rationale was that the western shore of the Bay and the Arthur Kill couldn't handle the larger ships because of their water depth, and that New York would lose container business to Norfolk-Newport News-Hampton Roads and to Charleston, S.C. for shipments from the Atlantic Coast to other parts of the country. As for the shorline space needed, that would probably depend on whether or not enough people with power stood to benefit from the project to offset the NIMBY complaints that would result. Certainly, CSX and Norfolk Southern don't have enough infuence by themselves to beat back the NIMBY charge they would encounter in west-central Brooklyn.
New York does have better east-west rail access than those two ports --- if you can run a rail line across from N.J. to Brooklyn, but how much of the other benefits would come to pass if a rail link was built, or it the cost of such a line would be cheaper than just dredging the western part of Upper New York Bay, I don't know. But certainly the people in New Jersey would demand that option be looked at first before any Port Authority money was committed to the Brooklyn tunnel plan.
The advantage Brooklyn supposedly has over the other sites is its proximity to the Hudson-New York Bay deep channel, which the next generation of "super cargo ships" is supposed to require. When Jerold Nadler and others began making the case for the Brooklyn site, the rationale was that the western shore of the Bay and the Arthur Kill couldn't handle the larger ships because of their water depth, and that New York would lose container business to Norfolk-Newport News-Hampton Roads and to Charleston, S.C. for shipments from the Atlantic Coast to other parts of the country. As for the shorline space needed, that would probably depend on whether or not enough people with power stood to benefit from the project to offset the NIMBY complaints that would result. Certainly, CSX and Norfolk Southern don't have enough infuence by themselves to beat back the NIMBY charge they would encounter in west-central Brooklyn.
New York does have better east-west rail access than those two ports --- if you can run a rail line across from N.J. to Brooklyn, but how much of the other benefits would come to pass if a rail link was built, or it the cost of such a line would be cheaper than just dredging the western part of Upper New York Bay, I don't know. But certainly the people in New Jersey would demand that option be looked at first before any Port Authority money was committed to the Brooklyn tunnel plan.
A huge, multi-year dredging project has begun - in fact, that's part of the Port Authority's investment that makes it less likely to back a cross-harbor tunnel.
Hampton Roads and especially Charleston aren't significant competitors for NY-NJ's port business. Maersk-Sea Land, which you might describe as the Wal-Mart of the shipping trade, is fully committed to NY-NJ. If any Atlantic seaport can be described as a tough competitor, it's Halifax. Canadian National's relatively new Sarnia-Port Huron rail tunnel has made Halifax significantly closer to the U.S. Midwest.
Even so, it's hard to foresee any major challenges to NY-NJ's East Coast dominance. Business is likely to increase quite a bit as more and more carriers use the westbound Suez Canal route between Asia and North America.
>> If anything, reactivating the bridge to Staten Island makes a cross-harbor tunnel even less likely, as it provides rail access to the Howland Hook seaport. A Brooklyn seaport's raison d'etre is now less acute. <<
Interestingly, the ONE THING the PA was chartered to do back in 19...33(?), was (drumroll) -- build a cross-harbor rail tunnel.
That's it. That's all the PA was ever created to do. It's metastasized and become things it was never supposed to be. But it has never accomplished its stated reason for existence in the first place.
Any expansion of Brooklyn's seaport facilities would virtually certainly be as a RO-RO facility. Making it into a large-scale container port would require bulldozing several neighborhhods, according to my ex-PA employee/lobbyist wife.
I'd always heard the main thrust of the cross-harbor rail tunnel was to get decrease the number of big rigs using the Hudson & East River crossings and (to some extent) the city streets.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I don't think that is necessarily true. I have spoken with NY&A about this very concept and they said that I should speak with CSX first (to get to the Bronx and points north) about that portion of the service because that would be harder to do than their own line. The main issue would be the pipeline that runs to JFK on prt of the right-of-way.
CSX said that an additional track needed to be installed next to their track between the Hell's Gate Bridge and Fresh Pond. They did not seem as evil as one would expect them to be. I guess Amtrak just brings the worse out in them.
>>> Well, it's there, graded and there are rails today. No houses need be taken to build it, and few businesses... to build the stations I'm not so sure, but if they're built underground as on the N line in Bensonhurst, that could be minimised. <<<
Wouldn't it have been a little more courteous to indicate in your post what you are talking about? What is where, graded and with rails? Those of us geographically removed from New York should not have to dig up maps to try to understand your post. Presumably from your last sentence this is an unused LIRR ROW. Where is it?
Tom
He's talking about the LIRR Bay Ridge branch, which runs from the shore at 65th Street in Brooklyn, parallels the Sea Beach (N) Line at 8th Avenue, then swings across Brooklyn in an arc from west to east. It crosses the W line near its junction with the N line, the F and Q lines near Avenue H and intersects amd parallels the L line near the IRT Livonia Avenue Line.
It was originally primarily an excursion line with a branch to Manhattan Beach (near Brighton Beach) and was a heavy electric freight line. It fell into disuse because of the necessity to carfloat freight to New Jersey from Bay Ridge, a once common practice. It is key to revival of freight service through New York City.
The Bay Ridge LIRR line goes east from the water. It rins along the N line then it goes northward. Runs along side the L line from New Lots Ave to Atlantic Ave. How would it go to JFK from there? Hook up with the Montauk LIRR line and switch off on the Rockaway Beach LIRR line?
Actually, it would have to go to ENY and build a new ramp to connect the LIRR Atlantic Ave line, then run to beyond the old Woodhaven Station to a ramp and spur that is already in existance and build new track to connect into the current A line beyond the Fulton Elevated.
Thanks, Neil, that's exactly it!
All it takes is to look at a Hagstrom NYC 5 Borough Atlas with some time to find out. I know the areas of the city from rags to roots, so it is not hard for me to find out. By the way there was no problem at all and I can be of help at anytime.
The former connection was right before the old Woodhaven Station. The connection is now gone. The portal has been sealed and the right of way has been filled in. A school bus company now resides in the area of the former connection.
There will be construction for the 2/5 extension to the LIRR ROW and built a new layup track on it.
I heard yesterday from a train crew that there were suppposed to be 4 redbirds to help with the extra service on the 1 this weekend since that they're going to Bklyn.
You might be right. If the 1 is going to Brooklyn it'll need additional cars.
Semi-Right, it's not using the redbirds I don't think, its using 10 car livonia cars...
I see already that the Livonia cars are 10 cars instead of 9. So that adds to the 240th Street cars as well. Will keep you guys posted.
What I saw on www.quuxuum.org/joekoerner, the TA's proposed plans is to use the R-142 cars on the #3 as well as the #2, so that maybe the start of things.
11 cars are back on the 7 line. After a three week stint, the R33s was back in place starting with 00:25a out of Main St this morning.
This is fine but when are the R62As coming over to the 7? I hope soon.
#1856 #7 Flushing Local
......hold your breath ..........!! .......................lol!!
Going on the supposed plan for stocking the E. 180th St. yard with the R-142s for the 2/5 first, it's doubtful you'll see any of the R-62As on the Flushing Line until those two lines get their cars. After that, when the R-142s destined for the No. 3 train begin arriving, that will free up the current cars on that line for their move to Corona.
That's right. I noticed every Flushing line train to be 11 cars today.
On our route from Times Square to 40 St., my mom, brother and I boarded R36 #9334.
NOTE: This car was completely with FAN air. NO A/C. And the four ceiling fans were covered with a different design, rather than plain circular grills for the covering. Anyone know what happened?
: )
Railfan Pete.
Sure I know what happened -- that's not an R-36! That's a single-unit R-33, and none of them ever had air-conditioning. The single-unit R-33s were the cars removed from the 11-car #7 trains to make them 10-car trains, and now they're back.
David
mmmmm... I had better clear up my clarification about R33's and R36's.
But didn't the neighboring Redbird cars around #9334 already get scrapped? (in the #932-, or,,,)
Railfan Pete.
As far as I know only single car to be retired was 9321 which got sunk.
And 9306, which has been in the Transit Museum for 25 years.
David
My summer absence is over (for a couple of days). Please do not expect regular postings for a few more weeks because I still have some trips I am going on. I will post about my trip to NYC as soon as I find time.
Welcome!
E_DOG
This is subway related & is tied into what video camera U feel is best for shooting the subway / rail transit systems etc...
I own a few sony camcorders the tr818 & the 1999-2000 & tr 416 with 0.4. natural low light lux shooting ( my favorite )...
The sony camcorders boast of having the " Nigntshot " feature which looks like somehting out of the blair witch project !!!....lol !!!
However maybe some of U out there may own this JVC model with the special NIGHT ALIVE feature .... How does it work ??
Did you like it ?? Also i would like to later ask a question about your digital still camera if U own one ....
I would be glad to hear from anyone on this forum who owns or has seen the NIGHT ALIVE feature on any JVC camorder !!.........lol !!
& of cource { on topic } how did it work in the subway? ...................lol!!!
This is subway related & is tied into what video camera U feel is best for shooting the subway / rail transit systems etc...
I own a few sony camcorders the tr818 & the 1999-2000 & tr 416 with 0.4. natural low light lux shooting ( my favorite )...
The sony camcorders boast of having the " Nigntshot " feature which looks like somehting out of the blair witch project !!!....lol !!!
However maybe some of U out there may own this JVC model with the special NIGHT ALIVE feature .... How does it work ??
Did you like it ?? Also i would like to later ask a question about your digital still camera if U own one ....
I would be glad to hear from anyone on this forum who owns or has seen the NIGHT ALIVE feature on any JVC camorder
!!.........lol !!
& of cource { on topic } how did it work in the subway? ...................lol!!!
here's a weird one. while on a manhattan-bound R at Grand Ave, i saw what appeared to be a train of r32's stopped short in the station, like a "C" train. what it turns out to be, is r32's #3445 and 3468 towing IR-719 and OR-719. there's a mixed consist for you, BMT 32's running with IRT 22's.
I was wondering if the folks at NJTransit plan on changing the Newark Subway name to something else that is more appropiate since the system is now expanding and since it is really not a subway system at all, in technical terms.
I don't think so- the new stations at Orange and Branch-Brook Park have the words "City Subway" set in the peaks of their cast-iron roofs.
wayne
I think that a good thing. I'm glad Bombardier or Kawasaki didn't get it because I didn't like my one ride on a R-142 and I'm glad breda didn't get it cuz they only build junk.
From http://members.aol.com/netransit/
On September 6 2001, the MBTA Board of Directors will vote on a $172 million contract with Siemens Transportation to supply 94 new Blue Line cars to replace the present fleet.The first pair is expected to arrive in late 2003 with regular deliveries in 2004/2005. The new cars will have stainless-steel carbodies, A.C propulsion, and will be the same size as the present fleet. Siemens will also dismantle and reassemble two existing Blue Line cars to determine if it is feasible to rebuild 24 for Orange Line service. Cars 0652/0653 will be sent to Hornell NY for the work in November and will return to Blue Line service after they are reassembled. If it is feasible, 24 cars will be retained and rebuilt for Orange Line service after the new Blue Line fleet arrives. If it is determined that the cars are too corroded to be feasibly rebuilt, 18 new cars will be ordered for the Orange Line.
From a Write to the Top letter posted to the Web
The contract for the 94 new Blue Line cars has not yet been awarded, but will be presented to the Board of Directors at its' next meeting. The schedule in the contract provides for the delivery of a pilot pair on December 1, 2003. These cars will undergo a four month testing period. Assuming that all goes well with the testing, delivery of remaining cars will commence on April 1, 2004, and be completed by July 10, 2005. Sorry, but there is no place to view the cars (yet). I can tell you that the length and width are relatively the same as the existing cars. An additional set of doors has been added to facilitate boarding/egress. Width of door openings has increased six inches, and seat width has been slightly increased as well. An additional change, is the inclusion of two dedicated wheelchair areas. Six car train service will commence when all of the cars have been accepted.
It's time for new rolling stock on both Orange and Blue Lines on MBTA. Evidently the Orange Line is also short on rolling stock. This contract is good news...
The orange line stock is only barely 20 years old, the prototype deliveries being 1979 and the rest in 1980 and 81. MBTA shouldn't be allowed new cars if they don't maintain the ones they got properly. There are lots of stock which are older and still in good service with other transit agencies.
This is to supplement the existing fleet, not replace it. More service!
I understood that, but was surprised by LOexcie's disclosure that the trains are only 20 years old. For 20 year old trains, the Orange line's cars look and feel older.
I was told this about the orange line cars by a friend -- would anyone want to correct him? I'm not entirely sure myself.
Lexcie
Remember the Forest Hill extension of the orange line? I seem to remember that was when new stock was ordered for the orange line. Maybe I should check the NYCsubway pages...
You might consider joining the Boston Street Railway Association. They have meetings the first Saturday evening of the month 7:30pm, Mason's Hall, Boston - next to Boylston St. Station), and put out a fine publication "Rollsign." Rollsign's January issue is traditionally dedicated to the MBTA Vehicle Inventory. According to the 2001 volume, the current Orange Line cars were built in 1979-1981 by Hawker-Siddeley.
BSRA can be reached at 781-433-7015; P.O. Box 181077, Boston, MA 02118-1037.
[Oh great! Someting else to do on September 8. I think 207 St. tour, Hoboken, and a V ride will win out this time.]
Is that why they vaguely resemble some of the PATH rolling stock?
Exactly. That's what it says on the Orange line page.
Uh.... not more service. The Orange is maxed for service frequency by the northside extended block signalling. No additional service trains until the the northside goes ATO.
But did you guys know that at rush hour (except summer), there's no spare trainset and there hasn't been in years. This explains the condition of the cars. I think you would find a higher mileage on these 20 year old cars than those on other systems. The reason for acquiring 3 extra trainsets is that at 20 years, the shop needs more time with these oldies. Without these extras, the future will see dropped runs because of equipment problems.
There are provisions to turn Orange Line trains at Sullivan Sq. If the extended block is north of that, then they could increase service frequency south of that station.
Not Sullivan.... Wellington. Does you no good. The extended blocks are from State/Haymarket (depending on direction), and the ruling block is from North Station to Community College. Often shows as a delay at North Station going north.
Thanks for clarifying that, Dick. I heard somewhere a while back that there would be an increase off-peak, which would allow more cars to go for the shop time to which you refer.
There are off peak times that could definately use some runs. The problem I see is the lop-sided nature of the customer base. Saturdat and Sunday morns, the north side is packed and the south is light. So they split the difference and make the folks from Sullivan Square stand!
BTW, the Project Manager says you'll have to do the Canal St Marathon at least 'til the end of the month. Sorry!
Hoo boy! The opening of the north entrance to the Orange Line station at North Station has been delayed from May... to June... to July... to August... to September... and now? Fortunately, I take the Green Line from North Station, so I don't have to do the long walk. But hopefully this will reduce some of the pressure one the single entrance to the Green Line (one staircase, for both up and down passenger traffic to the el!).
But did you guys know that at rush hour (except summer), there's no spare trainset and there hasn't been in years.
I find that hard to believe. According to the National Transportion Database for 1999, the MBTA heavy rail operations are running 28% spares and the average fleet age is 16.9 years. If they are running 0% spares on the Orange Line, then they have to have a lot of excess cars on the Red or Blue lines.
By comparison the NYCT average fleet age was 26.6 years and they were running at 18% spares. Also the MBTA light rail operations were running at 9% spares with an average fleet age of 16.1 years.
Lack of maintenance in NYCT? Probably not, the average # of labor maintenance and inspection hours per car was 813 for NYCTA and 834 for the MBTA. MBTA light rail required 1855 hours per car.
That's interesting. It's amazing what the statistics don't tell you. The Orange Line has everything out except 4 cars in the afternoon rush. The Blue schedules everything except 6 cars, but always sends a RAD (Run As Directed)(4 car) in the morning if equipment and man-power is available.
I'd guess the numbers you quoted show availability across a 20 hour period and don't show the crush at rush. It's also hard to know if the database has scheduled trains or actual runs.
Does the light rail shop time include the Type 8's. There's always someone looking at them! That's all they're good for!!
I'd guess the numbers you quoted show availability across a 20 hour period and don't show the crush at rush.
No, it is difference of the total number of cars available for service and the number of cars required for maximum service divided by the number of cars required for maximum service.
It's also hard to know if the database has scheduled trains or
actual runs.
The data is supplied by the MBTA to the feds. Anbody's guess.
Does the light rail shop time include the Type 8's.
It's 1999 data, so I'd guess not.
>>> MBTA shouldn't be allowed new cars if they don't maintain the ones they got properly <<<
Lexie;
You seem to have an unhealthy urge to have some central government exercise control over local government. Because the MBTA did not properly maintain their current fleet, you suggest the people of Boston be punished by not allowing the MBTA purchase new equipment. The usual American way is to purchase the necessary new equipment, and if it found that the MBTA failed to maintain the current stock, have the local voters turn the rascals out of office through their elected politicians. If the elected politicians are in bed with the MBTA board, it is possible to get change through the courts as was done in Los Angeles.
Tom
FTA has a policy whereby if equipment are scrapped before their 30 year expected lifespan, there is a Federal clawback against the Federal contribution of the cost of cars when they were new: principal plus interest. In my humble view, this is a good system and encourages good maintenance practices.
I acknowledge that I am implicitly suggesting that the central govt should exercise control over the local govt. Although, this is not generally desirable, it guarentees that wherever an American goes, he or she would be able to rely on the same safety net and similar values -- for example, as we all know FRA requires horns to be blown at all grade crossings. By the same token I should argue that Federal government should conserve its resources and disallow bad maintenance practices in one region from depriving other more deserving regions (e.g. Cleveland) of funding.
You seem to be of the impression that democracy and the justice system would actually solve the social problems that we just talked about -- i.e. the waste of resources by a public body or a region. If you were to turn up the setting on your cynicity dial, you would soon see the many flaws in your argument -- which is basically based on the assumption in the "good citizen" class you got taught all of x number of years ago.
Sorry to drag in the philosophical element, but when someone tries to convince me that the current system of democracy will actually solve all our transit problems, I have to at least outline my counter-argument.
Lexcie
There is nothing inherently wrong with demanding accountability for federal dollars spent. While Lexcie's precise statement may appear a bit strident, the feds demanding an accounting of how federal money got spent in Boston is very sound. Similarly, a city utilizing state money should be accountable to the state for how that money is spent. This is entirely proper. It is not antidemocratic, because all levels of govt contain a mix of elected and appointed officers, and all levels of govt are subject to elections by voters.
>>> There is nothing inherently wrong with demanding accountability for federal dollars spent. <<<
I certainly agree with that, and would also agree with a report being issued bringing to light any failures of local officials leading to premature replacement of equipment, but the idea of the federal government forbidding the replacement of equipment, even at local expense, is extreme.
Tom
I agree with you there.
If you compare the condition of NYC's subway cars of the same or older vintage, they are (from a rider's perspective; Selkirk, Train Dude and others may have another take on it) in better shape than the Hawker-Siddeleys on the Orange Line. I've ridden both a lot. Door chimes sound weird, doors close very slowly, climate control not quite as nice on the Orange Line.
Of course, NYCT is only now catching up with the newer Red Line fleet. I wonder when MBTA will retire the rest of the Red Line's Pullman-Standards and buy more of the Bombardiers...
If the "T" saw the amount of problems Bombardier had in building over around 700 cars for NYCT (a problem which has just been fixed), then they would think twice before contracting with Bombardier. That is, even if the "T" currently had 200-300 Bombardier products rolling around on the Red Line. (Correct me if my numbers are off)
There are just 86 Bombarider cars (#01800 to 01885) on the Red Line in Boston. After initial problems, they have been a good fleet (Right, David Cole?).
in general Bombardier is an excellent rolling stock manufacturer. thats why they are the leaders in rolling stock right now. you go to other cities and contries (montreal, Toronto, London, Seoul, Kuala Lumpur, Ankara, China) you see that they don't cause any problems even from the beginning of their service. as for the problems we have here in the u.s with them it is due to the fault of hiring inexperienced manufacturers and gov't politics. nobody sees that. however, besides the small problems that this company has, people overate these problems and make them sound big. these problems come along as apart of breaking in new rolling stock but, of course nobody in here will never understand that or don't want to. you know what? all these companies that make trains are never reliable. they will bring us faulty equipment that will have to be worked out to run safely in their systems. so basically when people talk about problems with cars and how a manufacturer makes their cars, it is basically nothing special in this field of manufacturing goods. problems were apart of it since day one.
After initial problems, they have been a good fleet
not including the seats.
Well Tom, you are obviously one of those lobbyist people who misconstrue other people's statements. I said "MBTA should not be allowed new cars", I did not state that they should be forbidden by law to purchase new cars by the central government.
>>> I said "MBTA should not be allowed new cars", I did not state that they should be forbidden by law to purchase new cars by the central government. <<<
Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. But who beside a central government could have the power to prevent the MBTA from obtaining new cars, and saying the "MBTA should not be allowed new cars" certainly implies positive action by someone to prevent acquisition.
Tom
Well, actually if you think about it, the US Department of Transportation subsidizes mass transit in a NUMBER of locales, and in some, the funding from the federal level is a mighty substantial sum. I could see Tom DeLay getting into a hissy fit and cutting them off. The high-handed swine (no offense, "Pigs") in DC have arbitrarily bitch-slapped localities for less.
And here in NYS, our own Paturkey (R) and Senator Joe Bruno (R, Troy) have STILL not produced a budget for the state, now FIVE months past due) which may well result in the subways being shut down for lack of money (school taxes statewide are about to be doubled because they haven't budgetted for that either at the state level, so the localities now must tax up the difference) ... funny how here in the states, we have our political "kings" playing central government by screwing everybody too ...
So even if Lexcie's experience may be Britain (after all, George W Bush, our appointed King, is a descendent of the WINDSOR FAMILY who we overthrew in a revolutionary war) there are too many ironies at play here. Anything's possible ...
Well said! As a proud Piggo, I only take offense when you compare a pig to a politician (at least a Republican). What did a pig ever do to be brought down to that level? I feel the same way about cops, but thats another story.....
Piggo12
Hmm, so there are more people out there who are aware of the police force's inherient corruptness than a selected bunch of social psychologists. You know something? I remember hearing a thesis as an undergraduate, which stipulated that it is simply a matter of time before police becomes corrupt because of their exclusive position in society; in that the strongest constraint against a subsociety -the shun- does not function in this case; you cannot shun the police force. I forget the precise argument but I found it difficult to fault at the time. Politicians are a little easier to deal with socially -- they can be shunned, and they can be voted out of office. Not the police force.
I think the number of such people has grown tremendously since the Abner Louima, Patrick Dorismond and Amadu Dialo incidents, plus the numerous DWI tragedies in the news. Many people, (particularly whites and even minority groups of upper middle class and above status) always thought the police were 100% wonderful people who are above reproach. While I admit I personally have had run-ins with the police (some my fault, an equal number not) and in general do not care for them, I still feel a majority are good people, but when these horrible incidents hit the press, police apologists say the bad apples are .1% of one percent; I personally feel the bad apples are more like 15-20% and an many more, while not being corrupt or overtly racist themselves, do utilize racial profiling (both a white guy in a minority neighborhood will be questioned without any probibly cause just as fast as black man will in a white neighborhood) and impose there view of the world on the people they police. And let's face it, the vast majority of the police force (even in NYC) is white and male). I am a white male and I can see this, while I have had run in's with the police, I have also been told to get lost while a black man next to me was taken into custody.
I do feel the tragedies I mentioned above have opened many eyes, and I think the free pass the cops in the Dorismond and Dialo got opened just as many more. How can you fire 41 bullets at a man before deciding he is unarmed and not a threat? I think the vast majority of fair minded people everywhere where at least given reason to reflect on our society after those events.
I still feel a majority are good people, but when these horrible incidents hit the press, police apologists say the bad apples are .1% of one percent;
To me, racial profiling by the police is simply a reflection of racial profiling in our society. Personally, I do not see that as a problem, it is simply a social phenomenon. If nobody does racial profiling at all, then there would not be any policeman who do so, simply because police force is only a subsociety of our society. They are not exactly TRAINED to profile people based on their race. Now, you tell me, if some weird looking person with green skin came up to you and asked you for a dime, wouldn't you be a bit more suspicious than if a person with the same colour of skin as you did exactly the same thing? For a start you would be wondering why Martians would speak perfect English. Racial profiling is simply a natural phenomenon -- an instinctive fear against the unknown. In some societies however, this instinct is unfortunately reinforced by isolated incidents.
I worry less about racial profiling than the police's misuse of their power -- by this I mean explicitly misuse their power. Not that I've had any run ins with any police officer (since I am aware of their power and I avoid them at all costs), but if you'd know anyone who is actually a cop you would see their mentality and attitudes are a grave cause for concern. The bottom line is, the police force protect the police force, because they all share the same power and stand to lose it if they don't protect themselves. So if you said to Officer B that Officer A tried to rob you of your belongings, who is Officer B going to believe?
Lexcie
Your are once again right on. While I do not know any police officer personally (and I don't intend to) I have had the displeasure of dealing with them. Or more to the point, watch them (on more than one occasion) hit on my wife right in front of me, when she told them she was married and not interested, they would not stop. One time a cop followed her into the ladies room at the Port Authority Bus Terminal. As you say, who are you going to call when a cop misbehaves????? Another cop???? Why bother. They will cover for each other to the end. The see things as us (them) against the world. When in reality, they have the guns and the tin badges.
Today I use your philosophy, avoid them at ALL costs. They self rightously arrest people for DWI (and I agree, if you drive drunk you deserve what you get) but they don't think twice about getting loaded and driving off to their suburban homes at 90 MPH. If they get stopped, they pull out the badge and the mutual admiration society goes into session.
Piggo
As I said in my original message, I find it reprehensible for someone to call a cop a pig, I never heard of a pig sodomizing another pig.
Uh, what does this have to do with Siemens or the MBTA? CHANGE THE TOPIC PLEASE!
I wonder why they didn't go with Breda!
Type 8 derailments thats why the MBTA didn't go with breda.
Finally the MBTA is doing a good thing. If they had not I would live in Washington D.C.
"i'm glad Bombardier and Kawasaki didn't get it because i didn't like my one ride on the R-142" Look out because statistics show that Siemens isn't sutch o hot item either. they have many unsuccesses from here to germany
I think that a good thing. I'm glad Bombardier or Kawasaki didn't get it because I didn't like my one ride on a R-142 and I'm glad breda didn't get it cuz they only build junk.
From http://members.aol.com/netransit/
On September 6 2001, the MBTA Board of Directors will vote on a $172 million contract with Siemens Transportation to supply 94 new Blue Line cars to replace the present fleet.The first pair is expected to arrive in late 2003 with regular deliveries in 2004/2005. The new cars will have stainless-steel carbodies, A.C propulsion, and will be the same size as the present fleet. Siemens will also dismantle and reassemble two existing Blue Line cars to determine if it is feasible to rebuild 24 for Orange Line service. Cars 0652/0653 will be sent to Hornell NY for the work in November and will return to Blue Line service after they are reassembled. If it is feasible, 24 cars will be retained and rebuilt for Orange Line service after the new Blue Line fleet arrives. If it is determined that the cars are too corroded to be feasibly rebuilt, 18 new cars will be ordered for the Orange Line.
From a Write to the Top letter posted to the Web
The contract for the 94 new Blue Line cars has not yet been awarded, but will be presented to the Board of Directors at its' next meeting. The schedule in the contract provides for the delivery of a pilot pair on December 1, 2003. These cars will undergo a four month testing period. Assuming that all goes well with the testing, delivery of remaining cars will commence on April 1, 2004, and be completed by July 10, 2005. Sorry, but there is no place to view the cars (yet). I can tell you that the length and width are relatively the same as the existing cars. An additional set of doors has been added to facilitate boarding/egress. Width of door openings has increased six inches, and seat width has been slightly increased as well. An additional change, is the inclusion of two dedicated wheelchair areas. Six car train service will commence when all of the cars have been accepted.
Questions for transit buffs, baseball fans, and/or Brooklyn partisans.
The Transit Museum at GCT has a show on about baseball and transit. They talk about the many subway series of course, but also how the pre-war ballparks were built with transit in mind. They repeat the often told story about how the nickname for the Brooklyn Dodgers (that eventually became official) came while the team was at "Eastern Park". There were two trolley lines next to the field and fans would have to dodge them to get to the game.
1) So where was Eastern Park?
The map at the GCT exhibition is vague. East New York-ish. I went to the bookstore to find the book the Cooperstown people (co-curators) refer to. Same vague map in the book. So I look in other books while I'm there. A Brooklyn general history book had a reproduction of an old baseball program that identified the location of Eastern Park as Eastern Parkway and Vesta Avenue. Vesta Avenue is apparently Van Sinderen Avenue today. Not much help. The two streets don't appear to cross. Maybe the streets had a different alignment at the time (1891-1897).
2) Is this really the place where the nickname got attached anyway?
This part of Brooklyn in the 1890s probably called for more TRAIN dodging than trolley dodging. The Bay Ridge and LIRR main line (at the time) are in the neighborhood. This was before the Brooklyn Grade Crossing Project of 1903-1918, when the Bay Ridge tracks were right on Vesta Avenue. On the other hand, there sure were trolleys at Washington Park, where the Dodgers were before and after Eastern Park (all pre-Ebbetts). One book says the cost of moving back to a new Washington Park in the Gowanus area was even partially paid for by two of the trolley lines. Several of the books also say "Trolley Dodger" was a derisive term that New Yorkers (i.e. Manhattanites pre-merger) had for Brooklynites in general.
Given how treasured the memories of the Dodgers are, and how very New York (or "Brooklyn") the team's transit-themed name is, it is strange how little definitive information there is on the subject.
I'm not sure where the Transit Museum's sources come fron.
The Brooklyn Superbas played their last game in Washington Park October 5, 1912. The Dodgers played their first game in Ebbets Field April 9, 1913. That doesn't leave much room for an "Eastern Park" which I have never heard of as a professional ball park.
I was brought up in Brooklyn while the Dodgers were still playing. My dad, an avid fan, was born in Brooklyn 1908. He knew of Washington Park and talked often of Ebbets Field but I never heard anything of Eastern Park.
He told me (and all the newspapers said when the Dodgers were leaving) that the term "Trolley Dodgers" reflected the extreme trolley traffic in the vicinity of Ebbets Field, although it could easily have been descriptive of Brooklyn in general.
The official picture for the 1911 Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers
Wow, Crosswinds has been around since 1911 when it put its name on the Dodgers logo!
Heh. Went and tried to fetch the picture by pasting it into the address bar and got a nasty "due to abuse" message. Someone needs to shop for another site, since these guys seem to be wanting to go the way of excite@home. NASDAQ lemmings, methinks ...
Very interested, lost interest trying to negotiate the site.
Very interested, lost interest trying to negotiate the site.
Join the club, an open faced club, the sand wedge.
Hmmm, open faced club sandwich.
Sure hope it's a Reuben. :)
Sorry, the link did not work.
click here to see the 1911 Brooklyn team dodging a trolley. Click on the picture for a full image.
1911 Brooklyn players dodging a trolley.
Now the question is: Where is this?
Looks kind of what a fisheye photo would look like.
The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum Inc. (Cooperstown) helped put the exhibit together.
Here is a web link that pretty much covers the version I keep running into, in whole or in part:
http://www.acmewebpages.com/dodgers/thename.htm
Pretty much every source I run into claims that "Dodgers" predates Ebbetts.
This site says that "[w]hen the second Washington Park burned down early in the 1891 season, the team was forced to move to nearby Eastern Park".
If Eastern Park was at Vesta Ave. it was certainly not "nearby" by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree that the term "Trolley Dodgers" for Brooklynites in general and the team in particular may predate Ebbets Field but certainly not, as your reference states "By 1890 Manhattanites routinely called anyone from Brooklyn a "trolley dodger," due to the vast network of street car lines criss-crossing Brooklyn by then." has to be incorrect. There were no trolley lines in Brooklyn (except the Jamaica Ave. line using the unsuccessful vanDepoele system) until the CI&B line from Park Circle to Brighton Beach in April 1890. General permission was not granted the street railways companies to electrify until November 1891.
"If Eastern Park was at Vesta Ave. it was certainly not "nearby" by any stretch of the imagination. "
Well, I suspect it was a *little* closer than say Boston or Pittsburgh. And it sure is not as far as Lost Angeles.
We shoulda stripped *our* NAME off of them when they left!
Elias
Well, truth to tell, the trolleys were gone from Brooklyn when the Dodgers left and they were still in LA, although I think they left LA as well in a short time.
There was some talk when the Dodgers moved out here in 1958 to get a new identity and change the name. Because of all the cars and traffic on the freeways that suggestion never got off the ground and it was deemed that DODGERS was a perfect name for Los Angeles. The problem was O'Malley was a greedy bastard. He chose the LA Coliseum, a real clay maker, for a park instead of 23,000 Wrigley Field, a nice baseball park. He also forbid the name Bums to be attached to his team, severing, he hoped, all connection with Brooklyn. From those two decisions I turned on the Dodgers with venom and despise them to this day. That infuriates my wife but I always tell her when it happens: "Honey I have some great news." She knows that means the LA Bums lost.
TRAITOR
Streetcars ran in Los Angeles until March 31, 1963, to be exact. Chances are I would have remembered them had I grown up there, as I can remember that far back.
1) So where was Eastern Park?
At the intersection of "Eastern Pkwy" & "Vesta Ave" between 1890 and 1897. Eastern Pkwy was later renamed Pitkin Ave and Vesta Ave was later renamed Van Sinderin Ave. These two later day streets do indeed intersect.
Eastern Park was used by the Brooklyn team in the Players League in 1890 and by the Brooklyn National League team for the 1891-1897 seasons.
Home plate supposedly stood where the at the present site of the Evergreen tunnel portal.
2) Is this really the place where the nickname got attached anyway?
The Brooklyn National League Team had the nickname of "Superbas" at that time. They did not get the nickname of "Trolley Dodgers" until 1911, when they were using Washington Park.
"1) So where was Eastern Park?
At the intersection of 'Eastern Pkwy' & 'Vesta Ave' between 1890 and 1897. Eastern Pkwy was later renamed Pitkin Ave and Vesta Ave was later renamed Van Sinderin Ave. These two later day streets do indeed intersect."
I thought Pitkin might be it, but couldn't find a map showing it. Surfed a bit more, and here is one from the key year of 1891:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1891.bot.right.html
The map shows the NY & Manhattan Beach in Vesta (Van Sinderen), sure enough. And it shows "Kings Co. Elevated R.R." in Eastern Parkway (Pitkin). [The map's legend is in this map section:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1891.top.right.html
So there was an elevated railroad on one side and a surface railroad on the other side. Unfortunately, this map doesn't show the streetcar lines. Will need to continue the search for a map with streetcars, lest we be left with the "Rail Dodgers".
"2) Is this really the place where the nickname got attached anyway?
The Brooklyn National League Team had the nickname of 'Superbas' at that time. They did not get the nickname of 'Trolley Dodgers' until 1911, when they were using Washington Park."
That cuts against all the other publications out there. Not to say they are right, they probably are just quoting each other. Do you have a published source?
The Brooklyn National League Baseball Team never had an official nickname. The unofficial nicknames were the Bridegrooms, Superbas, Dodgers, Robins and Dodgers. The name "Dodgers" did not appear on their uniform until the early 1940's. "Brooklyn" was the only appelation that appeared on the uniforms before then.
The exact dates for the various nicknames are speculative because they were not official. Here is a reference that shows 1911 as the beginning of the "Dodgers" nickname.
The Brooklyn team entered the National League in 1890. However, it was in the American Association, then a major league, before then.
Good reference page. But confusion reigns. Here is the current team's website:
http://dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/la/history/la_history_timeline_article.jsp?article=1
Their clear suggestion is that "Dodger" started in the 1890s.
No, they're using the term "Dodgers" rather generically, as in "The Dodgers of 1890" when I demonstrated that trolleys ("trolley-dodgers") weren't common in Brooklyn until 1895.
The other paragraph relating Dodgers and the 1890s says:
The term "Trolley Dodgers" was attached to the Brooklyn ballclub due to the complex maze of trolley cars that weaved its way through the borough of Brooklyn. The name was then shortened to just "Dodgers." During the 1890's, other popular nicknames were Ward's Wonders, Foutz's Fillies and Hanlon's Superbas.
They mention trolley dodgers and the 1890s in the same paragraphs, but don't hook up the two.
You can't mecessarily depend on official sites for history, especially popular or anecdotal history.
I and others have discovered the unreliability of official sources 5that don't reference source documents, for example, the BRT incorrectly stated the building date of Culver Depot when it was torn down, and the B&O railroad didn't know when the Staten Island Rapid Transit began running.
I think it does. Key word is "other" nicknames were...
Stephen, I researched this issue when preparing Branford's
"Subway Series" exhibit (two years ago, btw). In the book
"Big Apple Baseball" is a quote from one of the New York
papers in 1895, ascribed to a society type, which says of
Brooklyn, to paraphrase, "they don't have baseball fans, just
a bunch of trolley dodgers". That is the earliest known
reference to the term, and 1895 would place them at Eastern Park.
The word "Dodgers" on the uniform was started in 1938.
That is the earliest known reference to the term, and 1895 would place them at Eastern Park.
The modern use of "Brooklyn Dodgers" dates from 1932. In the 25 June 1932 edition of the NY Times, the team is referred to as the "Robins". They were referred to as the "Robins" exclusively throughout the 1930 and 1931 seasons. On 26 June 1932, the Times referred to the team as the "Dodgers". Roscoe McGowen wrote both articles. Clearly, there was an editorial decision. One would have to look up what the other dailies were calling the team, during the 1932 season.
The name "Robins" came from their manager, Wilbert Robinson. Robinson was fired after the 1931 season. He started managing them in 1914, one season after Ebbets Field opened.
My local library's NY Times microfilm goes back to 1930. I'll have to check a decent library to get earlier micorfilms.
The word "Dodgers" on the uniform was started in 1938.
My mistake. The war time road uniform carried "Brooklyn". I don't know if the 1938-1942 road uniform carried "Brooklyn" or "Dodgers". The 1943 home uniform did carry "Dodgers". The home 1938 uniform definitely carried "Dodgers". There are several photos on the web that confirm this.
The Times might not be the best source for Brooklyn sports
coverage, especially pre-1900.
The Times might not be the best source for Brooklyn sports
coverage, especially pre-1900.
I did not say that I would be consulting only the Times microfilm. I'm sorry, if I left that impression.
The Times microfilms are widely available, just further than 3 blocks from my house. I'll start with the 1916 and 1920 World Series coverage. That should give a fair indication of how early the the "Robins" era was established.
I'm aware of the deficiencies in the Times coverage before Ochs purchased it. I'd hope to get some coverage of the Temple Cup series of 1889, 1890 and 1900 Temple Cup series. I'd especially expect to see a lot about the 1889 series because it was against the NY Giants.
Otherwise, it's off to Grand Army Plaza in search of the Eagle.
I have a book called "baseball Uniforms Of The 20th Century" that shows all the Major League uniforms through the years. Here's what it shows:
1937: "Brooklyn" in block letters on both the home and road uniforms.
1938: "Dodgers" in the familiar script, on both the home and road uniforms.
1939-1945: "Dodgers" on home uniform, "Brooklyn" in script on the road uniforms. The 1944 Dodgers also had an alternate uniform, used both at home and on the road strictly for night games: It was made out of shiny, powder-blue satin instead of wool flannel, and had "Brooklyn" across the front.
1946-1957: "Dodgers" on both the home and road uniforms; "Brooklyn" would never appear again on a Dodger uniform.
The 1958 and 1970-1999 Los Angeles Dodgers also used "Dodgers" on both the home and road uniforms; the 1959-69 uniforms and the 2000-2001 uniforms had/have "Los Angeles" in script letters.
Thanks for the info. That relieves me of the task of going through the papers for photos of players in uniforms.
In the book "Big Apple Baseball" is a quote from one of the New York papers in 1895, ascribed to a society type, which says of Brooklyn, to paraphrase, "they don't have baseball fans, just a bunch of trolley dodgers"
Do they give a specific reference, i.e, "NY Times, June 7, 1895, p.23" or anything close?
In answer to your reply to a different post of mine, no I'm not in BERA so didn't see your article. My source for Daft's "troller" is Rowsome's Trolley Car Treasury. My source for the meaning of "troll" and "trolley" are memory, backed up by Merriam-Webster.
In another post, I note that when I recently read the book, the quote was attributed only as a "rumor". No date. No reference.
See, I'm guilty too. I read that book a few years ago and I
mis-remembered a specific quotation.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1891.top.right.html
Interesting map. Note that the portion of the Myrtle Ave line east of Wyckoff is called "Bushwick RR (Dummy)". I had never heard it called that before. I thought it was called the Lutheran Cemetery line, or something like that. Of course back then it was at grade.
After Kevin Walsh gets his site back up and running you can see a picture of a wall of Washington Park as it exists today as park of a Con Edison facility in Brooklyn.
It is back up and running. Like the day after posting.
Research Update:
Having surfed a bit more, if you give me a year between 1884 and 1911, chances are I can give you a website to support it. What a joke. So I looked at several books, which make more of an effort to be definitive. Almost all say Trolley Dodgers came from the Eastern Park days in the 1890s.
* Dodger Encyclopedia: trolleys "were at their worst in front of Eastern Park where a confluence of tracks made life especially dangerous for baseball fans"
* Storied Stadiums: "In 1891" Brooklyn "joined the National League, usurped Eastern Park and was renamed the Trolley Dodgers for doing so"
* Touching Base, which the GCT exhibit relied upon: "The team became known at the Trolley Dodgers because fans walking to Eastern Park had to avoid the trolley and streetcar lines"
* GCT show itself: "...they moved to Eastern Park, which had trolley tracks on two sides... from 1891 onward one of the team names was The Trolley Dodgers"
* Big Apple Baseball: Eastern Park "was located near a maze of streetcar and suburban railroad lines"
* The Ballpark Book by The Sporting News: "they played in Eastern Park (where 'Dodgers' originated from the name Trolley Dodger, fans who had to dodge trolleys to get to the park)"
Problem is, the only maps I can find show just one trolley line near Eastern Park: the line in Liberty Avenue 2 blocks away, and I doubt it was there in the 1890s before the grade separation project that started in 1903. The only book I could find on the topic is "Brooklyn Trolleys" by Greller and Watson. It shows the lines at the peak of the streetcar era decades later, so I have no idea when the Liberty Ave. line went in. Another map from about the same time shows the same situation (Eastern Park was where the green 'BMT Rapid Transit Lines' converge just north of the "Van" of Van Sinderen Ave):
http://www.bmt-lines.com/images/bqtmap.JPG
So maybe a couple of streetcar lines went in then came out. I certainly would love seeing the map showing that. Old maps for this area are rare, so any sources would be welcomed. The maps I do find concentrate on western Brooklyn and indicate railroads and els, and rarely show eastern Brooklyn or streetcar lines, let alone both.
I'm not hopeful, though. If there were multiple lines adjacent to Eastern Park as described above, at least one of them would have had to cross the Manhattan Beach railroad at grade. Doubtful. This area had been New Lots Town until just five years earlier, and had barely even become a part of Brooklyn. The area was poor, remote and less developed in the 1890s. The team had a miserable stay. They had a terrible record, a terrible park, and terrible attendance. Maybe it was the misery of the days out there that is remembered, rather that specific trolley dodging. (Making no comment about existing conditions in East New York, though Van Sinderen at Pitkin is a rough industrial neighborhood today.)
Van Sinderen had the Manhattan Beach railroad, and in time Pitkin had an el (by 1891?). But I doubt that dodging/ducking TRAINS was the inspiration for the nickname Trolley Dodgers. I don't think there was this much irony regarding our national pastime a hundred years ago.
So, barring a streetcar map discovery, it appears that the commonly told story of where "Dodgers" comes from is not true.
Here's my theory:
The other two books I found, Keppett's Concise History of Baseball and The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary, place "Trolley Dodgers" in the 1880s and the first stint at Washington Park (Third Street and Third Avenue in the Gowanus area). This is when "Trolley Dodgers" was first used, though briefly and in the multiple nicknames era.
Then, at the second stint at Washington Park, in the early 1900s, and at Ebbetts from 1913 on, the term was used more and more where the streetcars definitely DID run. In a real sense, Ebbetts was the true birthplace of "Dodgers" because it is where the nickname became official in the 1930s, and had the largest tangle of streetcar lines of any park (see map from the link above; Ebbetts of course was to the east of Prospect Park, just above the "Empire" of Empire Blvd. -- itself loaded with transit history).
I also believe psychology and the alleged fact that "Trolley Dodger" was coined as a negative term by Manhattanites plays a factor in this. Manhattan had miles of its own streetcar lines, so why the condescension? I'd guess that "Trolley Dodger" was coined at a time when Manhattan (briefly) had many els and Brooklyn was just getting its system underway and still mostly relying on trolleys. Nonetheless, several decades later this derisive term was converted into one of pride, allowing Brooklynites to assert identity within the now-merged 5-borough city.
But that's baseball. The Baseball Hall of Fame is located in a town where the game was "invented", even though the more obscure Alexander Cartwright, not Abner Doubleday, is credited with inventing the game (here in NYC). So sometimes a good story holds stronger than the facts.
When I researched the issue I was also bothered by the apparent
lack of trolley density at Eastern Park. My _guess_ is that
"trolley dodger" was a generic disparaging term applied to
Brooklynites by Manhattanites, e.g. the quote in Big Apple Baseball
ascribed to a society type from New York. That quote was, I believe,
in the early 1890s.
Technologically, the Manhattan system was inferior to Brooklyn.
There was the experimental Vandepole system ca 1888 on Jamaica
Ave, and then main electrification of the BCRR began in 1892.
Manhattan was still putzing around with cable cars at this point,
and didn't start electrifying until 1895 (or 1896, depending
on which source you believe). Of course, Manhattan never had
trolleys, except at the fringes. Although Manhattan was 15
years ahead in terms of elevated trains, I doubt that was the
reason for the condescension. More likely, trolleys and other
street railways (such as horsecars) were viewed as mass transit
for the lower classes. The wealthy in Manhattan could afford to
travel in private carriage, just as today they take cabs.
Given that trolleys didn't really exist in the 1880s, it isn't
likely that the term arose during Washington Park, take 1.
There was certainly heavy trolley traffic _near_ Eastern Park,
after all the ENY barn was a few blocks away, but immediately
around the park it seems scant. I would tend to think that
the nickname "trolley dodgers" was taken from the generic
nickname for Brooklynites and was not specific to the traffic
conditions at a particular park at the time, but that later,
when they returned to Washington Park and then moved to Ebbets
Field and the origin of the term receded into the past, that
it seemed logical given the heavy trolley traffic at those 2
locations.
In talking about "trolley dodgers" it would probably be useful to figure out when the term "trolley" came into general use in the NYC area. First use isn't enough, since it can take years before a term catches on. When I was a kid in the '50s my family (and many others) still called a refrigerator an "ice box" although virtually everyone around us had mechanical refrigerator by that time. And the City schools were still actively breaking us of using "aeroplane" instead of "airplane."
My King's Guide for 1898 has no mention of "trolley." It refers to "Street-Cars" and has a section devoted to (inter alia) "Railroads--Steam, Elevated, Cable, Horse and Electric". This doesn't prove the term trolley wasn't coming into popular use, but it shows the term didn't make it into a popular guidebook.
It does mention the "the field of the New-York Base-ball Club" which it helpfully lets us know were called "The Giants" but doesn't mention the name of the park (obviously the Polo Grounds from the location, whether or not it was yet called that).
"In talking about 'trolley dodgers' it would
probably be useful to figure out when the
term 'trolley' came into general use in the
NYC area. First use isn't enough, since it
can take years before a term catches on."
I agree with this excellent point in another post. "Trolley" may have been around since the 1820s, but what did it mean to people before electricity? Your information from 1898 supports the second Washington Park era. Any other information about the use of the term "trolley" at the turn of the century out there?
On the other hand, a phrase can grab hold quickly. The Times yesterday talked about how "America" was put on a map in 1507 and quickly took off from there. As a result, instead of Columbus, we are named for Vespucci. (At least there is one of these maps left for proof!)
I believe you had industrial trolleys before you had railway trolleys. The term is still used to describe moving devices hung from overhead rails to carry things.
Then there are trolleys meaning carts, mostly British use I think, as in "dessert trolley" in a restuarant.
We might consider that the different uses of "trolley" are not directly related with each other but come from the common root of "troll" meaning "to move around" or to "fish with a line from a moving boat" (the image of dragging behind a moving object).
The first use I know of of a term like trolley applied to a streetcar was from Daft's experimental electric streetcar in the early 1880's. He called the little current-carrying carriage that was pulled along the wires by his car a "troller," a short leap to "trolley," bt I don't believe he called his car a troller, just the device that collected the electricity.
It sounds like you read my article a few months ago in Branford's
newsletter (but I doubt it, you're not a member, are you?)
In British usage, a trolley is a little cart on wheels. I don't
think that in this country that usage was ever common to say
pushcarts, although if that were the case, it would be an alternate
explanation for what the people of Brooklyn might have been dodging.
As you pointed out, Daft was the first to use the term trolley
in connection with an electric streetcar, or more precisely,
troller. The current collection apparatus looked very much like
a trolley/troller which rolls along a beam to support a chain hoist.
Some of VanDepole's systems also used trollers. In studying the
literature of the industry, the term "trolley car" doesn't become
popular until about 1900. Prior to that, "electric car" was
more common.
To really settle this issue, the thing to do would be to look over
the Brooklyn newspapers from the 1890s and see what terms were
being applied to the horsecar conversions and new electric lines
that were being built at the time. Of course, any direct reference
to the baseball team as dodgers would be fairly conclusive as well.
My King's Guide for 1898 has no mention of "trolley."
Reference to "trolley" in Brooklyn can be found in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on 4 Jan 1898 on page 16 column 4. The squib is entitled: "Sea Beach Trolley Route".
It appeared on the adjacent to the obiturary of Charles H. Byrne, the founder of the Brooklyn Baseball Club. The obit did not shed any more information regarding the origins of the "Brooklyns" early nicknames.
This establishes that "trolley" was in common enough use by the beginning of 1898 to be used as a descriptor of a transit route.
The fact that the obit of the founder of the Brooklyn Baseball Clubthe same day without mention of "Dodgers," trolley or not, is interesting.
"Given that trolleys didn't really exist in the
1880s, it isn't likely that the term arose
during Washington Park, take 1."
Excellent point. But the question is, since the word "trolley" has been around since the 1820s, what did it mean to people before electricity? Did they say "streetcar" or "horse car" only? Or did they use "trolley" to refer to what they had before Edison came along?
A map from the era with a legend might help, but again, a paucity. Here is one map from 1873 that shows lines all over lower Manhattan:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1873.index.NYC.html
"That quote was, I believe,
in the early 1890s."
What I scribled down from Big Apple Baseball: "It is rumored that a Manhattan sophisticate came up with the line, which gave birth to the nickname, 'Brooklyn doesn't have fans, it has a bunch of trolley dodgers.'" I don't recall a date being given.
"Although Manhattan was 15 years
ahead in terms of elevated trains,
I doubt that was the
reason for the condescension."
I agree that this 'sophisticate' was probably in a carriage, and looked down on anyone in transit. But I also think that it could be more general chauvinism that his City had a more extensive network of the new high-tech els. He may not have ridden it, but it was a key development in driving the economy forward, and making money (on real estate etc.) for the upper classes. Put another way, limo riders today (with for example holdings on the east side) are likely to be very interested in the fate of the Second Avenue subway.
I'm not completely rejecting the idea that the name "Trolley Dodgers" or "Dodgers" before 1911 or 1900 could have existed. But can you understand that when an idea becomes popular through retelling it can become an urban myth? This covers things as diverse as the naming of New York as "The Big Apple" to the electrocution stories in the Malbone Street Wreck.
Urban myths are easily passed on with subjects that people consider not really important. If an intellectual property dispute surrounded the use of the term "Dodgers" you better believe the lawyers would be digging for source material, not going to printed books.
Do any of the sources you've provided cite any contemporary source for their speculations?
And a number of the sources you cite do not pass the most basic smell test. There were not a lot of trolleys surrounding Eastern Park. This is demonstrated by Greller. And as to:
Keppett's Concise History of Baseball and The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary, place "Trolley Dodgers" in the 1880s and the first stint at Washington Park (Third Street and Third Avenue in the Gowanus area).
Now we're back to the 1880s? What ran in Brooklyn (and the rest of Kings County) until 1890s were horsecars, which were not trolleys. Nor were they called trolleys any more than the people who operated them were called motormen.
I think what you need to do if you really want to trace the first use of "Trolley Dodger" or "Dodger" is to look for a contemporaneous source for your researchers.
"Do any of the sources you've provided cite
any contemporary source for their speculations?"
Nope.
"And a number of the sources you cite do not
pass the most basic smell test. There were not
a lot of trolleys surrounding Eastern Park."
This is my point for starting the thread: to verify that the most commonly told myth for how the Dodgers got their name is false. It did not start at Eastern Park because there were no trolleys there. It started at Washington Park, which did have trolleys (era 1 vs. era 2 is up for grabs), and became official at Ebbetts, which also did have trolleys.
"I think what you need to do if you really want
to trace the first use of 'Trolley Dodger' or
'Dodger' is to look for a contemporaneous source
for your researchers."
I only have so much time. This is why I took the issue to this forum: to tap into the knowledge of subtalkers. And most of the gaps have been filled.
I am inclined to summarize what this thread has come up with, and forward it to a few people. Maybe they can take it further. If nothing else, they can quit telling the current version.
And a point to add which makes the Ebbets Field solidification (for want of a better term) if not origin of the Trolley Dodger nickname likely: I remember going to Ebbets Field, though by the time I really remember it, the trolleys were replaced by buses and trolley buses (OK, the latter were trolleys, but not the kind envisioned in the nickname). To get to and from the main trolley stops, you typically had to dodge a lot of trolleys. The other popular way to get to Ebbets Field was from Prospect Park BMT, which required you to cross in front of Flatbush Avenue, Franklin Avenue and Tompinks cars, plus more I may not even know about. It was quite an adventure. In fact, try crossing those streets today. No trolleys any more, but basically, you either Dodge or Die, even today.
Perhaps I can be of some help. The name "Trolley Dodgers" was first used by Brooklyn's American Association team which played between 1884-1889, a team that would eventually become our modern Dodgers when they jumped to the National League in 1890.
My source (The Ball Clubs: Encylopedia of Major League Baseball Teams, 1996) lists this team as playing in 3 parks. They are as follows:
- Washington Park (I) - grandstand burned to the ground in May, 1889. The Veclite-Cortelyou house dates to 1699, still exists on the site today, and served the ballpark as a ladies room.
- Ridgewood Park - Sunday games played there until June 20, 1889.
- Union Grounds - The first enclosed ballpark, an outdated facility opened in 1863 and previously abandoned by the Brooklyn Hartfords (don't ask) and the New York Mutuals. Bordered by Union Av. and was considered rundown by as early as 1877.
***
Unfortunately a specific year is not given for the first use of the name "Trolley Dodgers," only saying that it was not an official name (like "Superbas" (derived from a vaudeville act at the time), "Bridegrooms" (used because a high number of players were married within a brief period), "Foutz's Fillies," or later "Robins" (related to their managers at the time)).
The name (like "Mets") goes back at least to the A.A. (defunct in 1891) and "was derived from an activity that the 600,000 residents of Brooklyn were familiar with in their everyday lives." It certainly predates the NL Washington Park days which began in 1891. The park was rebuilt as a concrete-and-steel structure in 1914/15 (Current site of Con Ed).
"It certainly predates the NL Washington Park days which began in 1891."
I meant to write that it predates the NL Eastern Park days which began in 1891.
Again, if it predates 1891, then "trolley dodgers" must have
been dodging fruitcarts or some other meaning of the word "trolley",
because basically there were no trolley cars in Brooklyn at the time.
Again, if it predates 1891, then "trolley dodgers" must have been dodging fruitcarts or some other meaning of the word "trolley", because basically there were no trolley cars in Brooklyn at the time.
FINALLY. That Explains It! They were originally the "Dessert Trolley Dodgers"! That also explains why their early uniforms featured cheesecakes as part of the design!
The name (like "Mets") goes back at least to the A.A.
I assume you're referring to the Metropolitans in Staten Island. The current Mets' corporate name is The New York Metropolitan Baseball Club, Inc.
However, I'm not sure if the earlier club was colloquially called the "Mets" although it's an obvious nickname. I researched that a while back as a peripheral issues to SIRT history and I didn't find a printed reference to "Mets" in Staten Island before 1965.
They held a contest to pick a nickname for the Mets. There were some interesting ideas: Meadowlarks (as in Flushing Meadow), Burros, and Knicks, among others. Guess who came up with Mets. Why, it was Joan Whitney Payson, the owner.
Well, she did do something right after all.
...I didn't find a printed reference to "Mets" in Staten Island before 1965.
I've found plenty of printed references calling the American Association Metropolitans the "Mets". They appeared in game descriptions that were in both the New York Times and the Brooklyn Daily Eagle.
I've continued my research with pre 1930 issues of the NY Times. They contradict some of your findings.
I had previously established that the Times switched from referring to the team as the Robins and started using the term Dodgers on 26 June 1932.
The 1920 pre World Series articles referred to the team as both the Robins and the Dodgers (3 Oct 1920). The 1916 articles referred to the team as the Dodgers, Robins and Superbas(4 Oct 1916).
The coverage for a 1915 pre opening day exhibition game with the Philadelphia A's refers to the team as both the Dodgers and Superbas (13 Apr 1915). Later coverage that year refers to the team more as the Dodgers than the Superbas.
The coverage for the last game of the 1914 season (2 Oct 1914) refers to the team as the Superbas. The coverage for the season opener at Ebbets Field refers to the team as the Superbas.
The coverage for the opening game at Ebbets Field in 1913 refers to the team as the Superbas.
Baseball coverage was spotty in the earlier years. The coverage was very good in the years of 1889 and 1890. This was the last year the team was in the American Association and the first year it was in the National League. The team was referred to as the Bridegrooms(1 Sep 1889 and 2 Sep 1890). They played in Washington Park in 1890 and in Eastern Park in 1891 (ibid). This 1891 coverage was good because they swept a triple header from Pittsburgh that day.
No mention is made of team nicknames just Brooklyn or the "Brooklyns". They did mention that a Sunday game was held in Ridgewood Park in 1888 (3 Sep 1888). Anybody want to guess where Ridgewood Park was located? The answer can be found on the web.
At this point, I'd guess it fair to say that the team that joined the National League in 1890 was nicknamed the Bridegrooms. The nickname Dodgers probably did not become associated with the team until after they moved to Ebbets Field. The nickname of the team that moved into Ebbets Field was Superbas.
I found quite a lot of more interesting material, while scanning the Times. One thing that may bear on these discussions is the term "Trolley Car" used in 1900 (12 Oct p3:2). It was with reference to an accident in lower Manhattan, which we all know did not involve a trolley car.
There was also the description of a fire that broke out in a car on the Lexington Ave El as the train left Gates Ave turning on to the Lex. The brakeman was able to stem the ensuing panic and they were able to get the train to Reid Ave. They were not able to extinguish the fire with sand and the Fire Department was called. The Fire Department stretched a hose up to the el and quenched the fire. The total delay was one half hour. I wonder how long NYCT would take to handle a similar crisis today?
I don't know that it necessarily contradicts what I found; I agree with all you have written (I have a copy of the Times article on Opening Day of Ebbets). Unfortunately I can not find another source that lists "Trolley Dodgers" as a holdover from the AA team. I hope the author was not taking liberties due to incomplete research. It is usually a VERY good source.
We can all agree that the name "Superbas" was first used under the Ned Hanlon tenure, as "Robins" was obviously used while Wilbert Robinson managed the team.
Total Baseball refers to the team before 1890 simply as "Brooklyn." In the 1889 (first intra-NYC postseason) and 1890 the team is referred to as the "Bridegrooms."
It seems more unlikely that the name did originate from the AA team after all.
By the way, there's currently a guy on ESPN who has the audacity to call the Los Angeles baseball team "the Bums."
That irks me to no end.
It shouldn't at all Brooklyn Dodger. They are a pack of bums and I can't stand them being out here with me. Let me clue you in on something. When they announced they were moving to Los Angeles after the 1957 season I was overjoyed. My childhood team following me out to California. Then I learned first hand what a cad Walter O'Malley was. He insisted his team get a brand new image and said he wanted no one, and I mean no one to call the team the Bums. The complient press, then as great a bunch of kiss asses as ever assembled, complied. Well I can tell you they are bums. They stink and think there is some magic ln the Dodger uniform like there seems to be in the Yankee one. If you noticed over the years they have time and again taken on other teams rejects with the hope that the Dodger uniform would work magic. It was always a disaster, yet they are arrogant as ever. I revel when they lose, and no one has gone more of a 180degree turn over a team than me. When I was a kid I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers. I detest them today with all the fiber of my being.
It is Dem Bums
Wow. Excellent research.
I believe there is general agreement that "Dodgers" was attached at Ebbetts. The question is where the term "born", even if only fleetingly. The accumulated evidence, including your work, points more and more to the second era at Washington Park, 1898-1912. The only evidence for an earlier date is (voluminous) heresay/legend. (Though the reference to a non-electric "trolley" is intriguing.)
I was riding a Dyre Avenue redbird,we arrived at 3rd avenue and 149th street, the doors wouldnt close.The T/O got out of the cab, walked to the conductor's cab, The T/O came back, a annoucement was made due to door problems this train will be taken out of service.The train left the station, A R-142 was right behind this train, then another 5 train pulled into the station.We arrived at Dyre Avenue, and guess what the train with the door problems was heading right out of Dyre Avenue!!!I remember the car numbers of the train so how did the train with "Door Problems" go right back into service?
Car inspector, mallet ...
Is that where they got the nickname "car knockers" from? :o>
wayne
In days past, yes ... of course nowadays with more electronics and more sophisticated pneumatics, it's a bit more civilized than that. Back in the old days though, a mallet did more wonders than all the volt/ohmmeters on the planet. :)
Probably had the same effect as a fist on a TV set.:-)
Most door problems were the result of levers or flags that sorta seized up with filth. If you banged it loose, they'd work again. Sometimes a squirt of oil. However, it was out of title work for conductors or motormen if there was an RCI around. Owing to deferred maintenance, kicking or punching something to make it go usually didn't get you in trouble as long as you blew the horn for attention when you DID spot one. As long as an RCI wrote it up and gave you a copy to take to the terminal, you were home free. And often, sans geese. :)
Whose to say it didn't run light to East 180 Shop
A train is not going to go into the shop for a door problem and be put back in service the same day.
If it is a busy time and they can't isolate the problem they may isolate the car. They really should not have taken the train out of service unless there was an indication problem, too.
Chances are the C/O did the troubleshooting enroute to the terminal.
This is the Second Avenue plan I have been working on.Since It would probably take me a few years to finish,this is only my 1 draft.
Bronx:The Bronx is a bustling part of New York.In fact the bronx is one of the most growing bouroughs in the city.Yet no subway line has been built to ease congestion on the 2,4,5,B,D lines.Which was one of the problems with the 3rd Avenue el.There was no connection to Manhatthan(though that wasn't the reason it was torn down).Even though the el has been torn down over 27 years,That might of been a preview for the G when the V comes into service.Thats why this plan will reurect the 3rd avenue el and also improve it.
U 2 Avenue express:Local from Gun hill road to 138 street.All time.This subway line connects Williams bridge,Fordham,Tremont and Morrisania with Mott haven.This line doesn't have as many stops as the former 8(which I call it) and has an express counterpart which gives you a choice of different subway lines.
X 2 Avenue express:Express From Fordham plaza to 138 street From 6 am-10 pm Weekdays.A non stop alternative to the 4,B,D,2 and 5,also connecting Fordham to Mott Haven.
Both lines ease congestion on the
2/5-From 3rd Aveue to Gun hill road.
4-125 Street to Bedford pk blvd
B/D-From 161 street to 205 street.
The U and X connects to the
2/5-3avenue/149 & Gun Hill road
6-3 avenue/138 street
D-205 street.
Let's be sure to get a group "SubTalker" photo for Dave to put up on the site.
I'll be wearing a WCBS Newsradio 880 shirt and/or hat for easy ID.
Oh, great. The tour of the 207th St shops will happen on the same day as the Hoboken festival. Well, you cannot be in two places at the same time, or can you if the timing is right? Any ideas?
Skip 'em both and go to the trolley model show in Valley Forge :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Absolutely!!! Completely agree!! See you there!
--Mark
Well, I'm afraid I'm not going to make it to any of them myself... my wife thinks I should spend the day at home with her since I'm leaving on an early plane Sunday morning for Denver, where I'll be meeting STEVEB-8AVEXP for an afternoon of light rail before spending the week in business meetings. But that's where I would be going if I was going anywhere.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Awwww ... oh well ... (she didn't want to go to King of Prussia, I presume? You could have dropped her off at the mall :)
--Mark
The tour is at 10am. It should't go more than 2 or 3 hours, right? Then hop a train downtown, xfer to the PATH, and poof! You're at Hoboken by mid-afternoon. At least that's what I'm planning. And of course after that a ride on the V!
Ordered my tickets last week. I hope there arrival since I'm in Toronto at the present time. If so, I'll be looking foward to seeing everyone.
This might be a little early, but any word on the weather for this Saturday?
Paul
Today's numerical simulation of Saturday's weather shows a front in the vicinity. Based on that, showers are indicated. More later in the week...
You might even make it in time for the last "Lackawanna excursion," which I believe is at 2:45.
Michael
Manhatthan is the buisiest(yet smallest)bouroughs in New York.And the people who live on the East side of this bpurough have needed a subway line for 48 years.Then theres the problem wit today's plan.No express all local.Plus it takes decades to build a subway line.Not for this one.This line will cost alot of money,but will only take 10-15 years to build.Why?Thistunnel will consist of a single tube running from 120 street to Houston Street.This tube will be set deep within the earth and will run about 100-200 feet deep within the earth without destroying anything above.First a special TMB will be Dug under groung creating a 30 ft wide by 30 ft tall tube that will guide the direction of a tube thats 25ft by 25 ft until 14 street.Then the tunnel will assend until it reaches Houston street.Then the TBM will be bought out and then another tube will be dug until Grand street.After Grand Street the tunnel will become an elevated structure and will run that way until Whitehall street.The express tracks will desend at a certain level while the local tracks remain elevated.
U 2 Avenue express:All times,nights local running express frm 125 street - Whitehall street
T 2 Avenue local:Local from 125 - Whitehall street.Nights no service.
X 2 Avenue express:Express from 125 Street to brooklyn.Nights,holidays and Weekends terminate at 125 street.
W Broadway express:Local from 125 street to 72 street(If the W is still operating in 2005 then it will run into Brooklyn)Weekdays from 7am-10pm.
Thi subwy line will alsoease congestion on the 4,5,6,(N,W,Q,,R below 23 street).The T,U,X connects to the
1/9-South Ferry/Whitehall street
2/3-South Street seaport
4/5-Bowling Green/Whitehall street(At 125 street via a special shuttle bus)
L-14 Street
N,R,Whitehall Street
Grand Street S
F-Houston Street.
Why do you think this plan has not already been selected by the MTA?
MATT-2AV
i don't know, do you?
I regret the delay in responding, but I wanted to give MR. X2001 a chance to answer that question.
I wanted to know his reasoning behind such a pie-in-the-sky approach, because it certainly escapes me. I also wanted to know why he refuses to heed the advice of others, and review the frequently asked questions, the message archives, and the planning studies on the MTA's web page.
To answer your question, the engineers involved have indeed suggested the use of TBM technology. TBMs have been the overwhelming favorite for a long time. Although railfans would prefer cut-and-cover, TBM technology is superior in this application for several reasons, including:
1) Utility relocation,
2) Underpinning, and
3) Surface disruption.
All of these issues translate into reducing cost and minimizing NIMBY complaints.
While the TBM will bore deep, there is no need for it to go 200 feet deep as Mr. X2001 suggested. That's ludicrous. The TBM can escape most of the above issues at much shallower depths. Don't get me wrong, the stations will be deep. I just seriously doubt they will be 200 feet deep.
At this time, money hasn't materialized for a two-track alignment, let along express tracks. Complaining that the system won't work because the subway is only two tracks is pointless. I apologize for sounding sore, but in the time it takes to either: a) complain that the subway will have only local tracks, and/or b) fantasize about a $100 billion system, one could draft a letter to their local politician and get something practical built.
Personally, I have always suggested that a two-track alignment be proposed initially, with a few selected stations having express tracks, most certainly on a lower level. These could be left unfinished and sealed off after construction. While adding to the cost, it would make the construction of an express routing politically easier in the future (i.e., the stations are already there, now just connect them...). Moreover, a four-track alignment doesn't make sense unless either local or express (or both?) can be tied in to additional lines, from the Bronx and wherever else.
Did I make all this up? No. I got it from keeping up to date with the message board and the MTA planning studies. Instead of irreverently spouting out, I respectfully wish others (names withheld) would do the same.
MATT-2AV
I would like to thank MATT-2AV for pointing a couple of things out.
1.The stations don't need to be 100 feet deep.Just deep enough to be clear of anything above.
2.The MTA Wanted to use a TBM to build the Second Avenue line.
And I would like to point a couple of things out.
1.If you would of read carefully I clearly stated the tunnel will be 100-200 feet deep.
2.I did say the express tracks will be on the level below the local tracks.
3.You can't build a tunnel,complete it and then shore it up.
4.I did keep up wit the message boards,the archives,FAQ's,other sites including the MTA,DOT and other important websites to my project.In fact I learned about how the 2 avenue line was to connect to the 6 avenue line, how original plans included a connection with the 3 avenue el prior to it's demolition,how my Second avenue plan will do away with the M15,BX35 and oher busses,How the City hall station(N,R) will be complete and used(Exept for the middle track)and how This will give a boost to Commerce in New York.
All in all did you (name not given) bother to answer any of my questions that I posted in June or July,or are you just ignoring the reaserch and lookingat the work
MrX2001
"The stations don't need to be 100 feet deep.Just deep enough to be clear of anything above."
But then you state:
"If you would of read carefully I clearly stated the tunnel will be 100-200 feet deep."
Why? Why would you want the tunnel to be deeper than necessary? Increased depth means both increased cost and inconvenience to the customer (because of a longer transportation time down to the platform).
"You can't build a tunnel,complete it and then shore it up."
I never stated that the express tunnel would be constructed. Only the express stations. If I recall correctly, the MTA plans to use cut and cover methods for some of the station construction. Once the sheeting is driven, excavating past the utilities is comparatively inexpensive compared to tunneling. By constructing the express platforms and then walling them up (similar to the way the Northern platforms at 63rd Street and Lexington are walled off), you get your foot in the door for future express tunneling once funds become available.
You can do anything you want, if you have the money for it.
"I did keep up wit the message boards,the archives,FAQ's,other sites including the MTA..."
Then why aren't you using the MTA's information? You've never challenged any of their conclusions -- you just irreverently started making your own plan. I admit it never hurts to dream, but I sense there's a real seriousness to your intended plan. That's fine. What the consultants recommend to the MTA will be constructed, not what's on this board. For all the effort in coming up with a fantasy plan, you could effectively campaign for something realistic with your local politicians. Have you ever written them a letter asking for at least a 2nd Avenue stubway?
MATT-2AV
This tunnel will consist of a single tube...
Circular cross-section?
Why was JFK express service discontinued
Because of low ridership
[Why was JFK express service discontinued?}
Several reasons:
1. It was very expensive to operate.
2. It carried very few people.
3. It was overpriced (at the end, the fare was $7.50 IIRC).
4. Most of the people who DID ride it were Howard Beach commuters who wanted their own isolated ride to/from Manhattan. In fact, one speaker at the public hearing referred to the A-train alternative as the "African Queen." (Note: I find that sentiment repulsive, as most SubTalkers probably do. I'm merely repeating what was stated in a public forum; check the transcript.)
5. It interfered with the operation of the A, C, and F trains (as a premium service, the "Bird" got priority over everything), thus inconveniencing thousands of riders to benefit only a handful.
Add to that the necessity of transferring to a Shuttle Bus once you hit Howard Beach.
A rail switch allowing 6th Av trains to use the Fulton Street Line is a useful thing in any event; I hope they kept the hardware.
Also when the A ran Exp under Fulton St there was no need for it.
It is still there, but it is used in case of track work that necessitates the closure of either the 8th Ave or the 6th Ave. lines.
You can see it just south of West 4th Street Station.
Excellent. One very good reason to keep it.
It's being used right now by the E train, which is running through 63rd Street this extended weekend (and last weekend, too). The D train also uses it on occasion.
There is an analogous connection the other way, so trains can stop at 14th Street-8th Avenue, West 4th Street (upper level), and Broadway-Lafayette.
The connections are south of W4 and are only on the local tracks.
The hardware was part of the original construction of the 6th Avenue line. I believe that if you dig through some of the old route maps, you'll find regular service used it for a time.
Thank you.
In affect, it was a limited express bus underground.
avid
I saw 3 sets of R142s @ Lenox Yard today like around 12:00 PM one of the cars was #6390 was visible from the far end of the platform.
This subway line will stem from The N,R and Q,seperating from the R at Dekalb Avenue(The unused subway connector) and from the Q a train length from Atlantic Avenue(By the way.In this plan there are 2 Atlantic Avenues)
*X 2 Avenue express:Local from Whitehall street to Atlantic Avenue(L).All times
*X 2 Avenue express:Local from Whitehall street to Seaview Avenue All times exept Weekdays from 6am-8pm
2 Avenue express:Express peak direction to Seaview Avenue.From 6am-8pm.Weekdays
*-nights skip Flatlands Avenue and Starret city.
An elevated structure running along Bergen street then connecting with the L at Atlantic(Van Sinderen) Avenue then along Van Siclen Avenue easing congestion on the A,C2,3,4,5.The X connects to the
M,N,R:Court st,Lawerence st,Dekalb Avenue and Atlantic Avenue
Q/:Dekalb/Atlantic Avenue
W:Pacifc street
2/3/4/5:Atlantic Avenue
3/4:Van Siclen/Livonia Avenue
A/C:Bway Junction,Pitkin/Van Siclen Avenue
L:Atlantc Avenue
J/Z:Bway Junction.
LIRR:Atlantic Avenue/Norstrand Avenue
"This subway line will stem from The N,R and Q,seperating from the R at Dekalb Avenue(The unused subway connector) and from the Q a train length from Atlantic Avenue(By the way.In this plan there are 2 Atlantic Avenues)"
There are too many trains running via the Montague tunnel and too much south Brooklyn service. Maybe a Second Avenue line can branch off into Brooklyn (somewhere around south 4th Street) which will eventually serve the Avenue U route (East Flatbush Bush Population).
The water street branch should just end with a connection b/t the 1/9 and N/R at Water Street.
N/W
T 2 Avenue local
Fleet:All R46
Operatins:Runs Every 5 - 10 minuites in/out of Grand street.
U 2 Avenue express
Fleet:Half R44,half R46
Operations:Runs every 5-15 minuites in/outof Grand Street
W Broadway express
Fleet:50%R46,49%R68 1%R42
Operations:Runs every 10 minuites in/out of 72 st
X 2 Avenue express
Fleet:50% R 46,50% R 68
Operations:Runs every 5-10 minuites in/out Grand street,every 10 minuies i/out Atlantc/Van Sinderen avenue.
T 2 Avenue local
Fleet:All R46
Operatins:Runs Every 5 - 10 minuites in/out of Grand street.
U 2 Avenue express
Fleet:Half R44,half R46
Operations:Runs every 5-15 minuites in/outof Grand Street
W Broadway express
Fleet:50%R46,49%R68 1%R42
Operations:Runs every 10 minuites in/out of 72 st
X 2 Avenue express
Fleet:50% R 46,50% R 68
Operations:Runs every 5-10 minuites in/out Grand street,every 10 minuies in/out Atlantc/Van Sinderen avenue.
This subway is built with CBTC, right? And the field shunts on the R-44/46s are replaced and turned on, right? The line is built to support 60mph operation, right? Okay. That's what the 44/46s were designed for originally.
Dan
If your riding or catching a train on the Green Line today between Park Street and Arlington, think of the passengers that did this for the first time on the Tremont St. Subway on September 1, 1897...104 years ago today!! -Nick
If your riding or catching a train on the Green Line today between Park Street and Arlington, think of the passengers that did this for the first time on the Tremont St. Subway on September 1, 1897...104 years ago today!! -Nick
Nobody rode between Park St and Arlington 104 years ago.
"Nobody rode between Park St and Arlington 104 years ago."
Yes they did, according to info found right in Park St. station. The subway had three stops when it first opened....Park Street, Boylston and Arlington. Soon after, the subway was extended to Scollay Square, which of course is now known as Governemnt Center. -Nick
The Boyleston St extension to the original Subway was not completed until 1918. The Arlington Station was not built until the 1920's.
The original route Tremont St portal was at Tremont and Broadway. The original route Boyleston St portal was in the Public Garden. The original subway did not even cross Arlington St.
I suggest you consult the Boston Transit Commission Annual Reports for 1895 and 1896, if you have any confusion as to the extent of the original Boston Subway.
"I suggest you consult the Boston Transit Commission Annual Reports for 1895 and 1896, if you have any confusion as to the extent of the original Boston Subway."
I consulted that at the Masschusetts Transportation Library. It said that the original station was at Park St although it was called Broadway.
It's Massachusetts NOT Masschusetts!
Well, at least I got the number of S's and the number of T's correct. In fact, I knew how to spell Massachusetts because I lived on Mass. Ave. for a time. This is until I moved to Somerville. "Masschusetts" was a typo.
Lexcie
I consulted that at the Masschusetts Transportation Library. It said that the original station was at Park St although it was called Broadway.
This statement is incorrect on two points. There were two stations and the Park St Station was never called Broadway.
I suggest that you consult the 1895 and 1896 Boston Transit Commission Annual Reports. As an MIT graduate student, you should have no problems accessing the material.
Lexcie graduated from MIT as well? Are you sure that you aren't getting confused with Todd Glickman? -Nick
Lexcie graduated from MIT as well?
No, I believe that a previous post indicated that he was an MIT graduate student, meaning that he is enrolled in a program for a masters or doctorate. That is what my post indicated.
One of his degree requirements will be performing original research, resulting in a thesis. If he does not learn how to use source documentation, as opposed to inaccurate crib notes, he may never fulfill these degree requirements. :-)
The Boyleston St extension to the original Subway was not completed until 1918. The Arlington Station was not built until the 1920's.
The Bolyleston St Subway was opened in 1914. The Arlington St Station did not open until 1921.
On Friday I took my first ride ever on the "W" line. To my surprise, some confused straphangers were looking at an outdated map on the W R68 train itself...suggesting that the line they are on does not even exist! I understand that it may take awhile to replace all maps in the 468 stations and the 5,000 plus subway cars...but honestly, the W R68 cars, the stations where the W stops, and then other major transit transfers should have gotten first priority replacement. -Nick
Due to ongoing work on some bridge somewhere, buses are replacing trains between JFK/UMass and North Quincy beginning with the start of service today, ending after the end of service on Monday. Ashmont trains continue to operate as normal but Braintree riders must use the connecting service. 15-20 minutes delay is anticipated.
After doing some railfanning on my beloeved R142s this week, I noticed that the announcements for connections had not been updated for the "W" line yet. When the "V" starts operations come mid-November, will the MTA seek out the gentleman from Bloomberg radio to make the update? -Nick
maybe they will i know i was on the r142 #2 4 times this week and the conductor has to interupt the man at 42 street it will get corrected soon
If they were smart, they would have had him record every letter in the alphabet. Maybe he'll have to come back to record the words circle and diamond.
yes, that is the plan......
Picked up today in the Balt.Sun (sunspot.net) Arts & Life section. Was unaware of number of passengers killed.
Yes, that one was a killer! The train uncoupled behind the 6th car at 75 MPH in North Philadelphia. The 7th car, a Pullman Coach, split in two at the pillar of a signal bridge, right down the middle, and the 8th car, another coach, and the 9th car, a Diner, plowed into the wreckage. All of the loss of life occurred in the 7th car. I have pictures of it in my Train Wrecks and Disasters books, it's a grim scene. The cause of the wreck was a hot box -i.e. an overheated journal bearing in the forward truck of the 7th car.
wayne
I wonder if such an accident could occure today with AMTRAK coaches ???
I wonder if such an accident could occur today with AMTRAK coaches?
No. As Wayne noted above, the cause of the accident was a hotbox, which is a condition essentially unique to friction bearing journals. That type of journal went out in the 50s (roller bearing journals for the railroads were under development prior to WW II; IIRC the first practical version was developed during the war) and hasn't even been used in freight service since the '70s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All types of bearings can turn into a hotbox, even modern roller bearings. However, Railroads have installed automatic Hotbox detectors at intervals along the line and the NEC is no exception. They are about every 10 to 20 miles.
Really? How on earth do they detect something like that on a passing train? What do the detectors look like?
IIRC, it's an infared detector aimed up at where the bearingcs would be if there's a train passing ovehead. I'm assuming Amtrak's work with both inboard and outboard bearing types. They also have dragging equipment detectors, those look like a big squeegee accross the tracks. I could never understand with passenger cars why they never put thermocouples on the bearings to watch heat rises. I think EMD did with a few locomotives, though. Today, with thermocouples or thermistors, you could do it really cheap and reliably
Of course, there's a zillion other ways trains derail too...
Yep, like the Broker did at Woodbridge, NJ in 1951. That was another killer, with Pennsy coaches telescoping one another and crashing through the temporary bridge and skewing down the embankment.
wayne
Luckily, no Big Orange South Shore car ever got tangled up in a high speed wreck. However, one train lost its brakes once and kept right on going through the streets of South Bend in April or May of 1967, right after we had left for Jersey. It struck something like eight automobiles and ripped through a bumper post in the storage yard. The motorman leaped out of the cab at the last instant.
Interestingly, those Big Orange cars originally had friction journals and were retrofitted with roller bearings after WWII.
Are we talking about the South Shore Line in Indiana? I know of at least one big wreck on that line -- collision between a Japanese-built EMU and a tractor-trailer "Michigan Train" carrying steel coils. Note that the Michigan Train is a name for a long truck. Three people were killed.
That was back in the '80s, right? I remember seeing a Comet-style MU locomotive with its left front corner ripped off (I think it was #24 or #28) and the reported loss of life in the seats in that part of the car.
Of course, while we're on the subject of the Chicago metropolitan area and train wrecks, who can forget what happened on October 30, 1972 between the IC MU and the Highliner.
wayne
Yeah, that express of 1926 vintage all-ateel brutes ripped through a newer train of bilevels as though they were tinfoil. Kind of like a BMT standard ripping through anything other than a Triplex.
I don't recall the South Shore incident, to be honest. 1982-83 was a transition period as the new Japanese cars were being delivered and phased in and the old Big Orange cars were phased out.
Without those detectors chances are there would be a lot more hotbox caused accidents. With the old friction journals the rank smell was a warning and there were people [caboose personnel for one., telegraph operators who'd make roll-by inspections, etc etc] who'd pick up the smell or see the glow, possibly fire. By the time a roller bearing journal lights up it is likely too late.
Anyone ever stand near an R1-9 with a hotbox? A smell of its own and you couldn't help but know what it was.
The March of Dimes D-Type trip in 1995 or 1996 had a hotbox returning from Rockaway Park. It took a godawful long time to get back to Kings Highway (Culver), and that was with repeated lubrication stops. For a while, we weren't even sure we'd make it back under our own power.
--Mark
Which of the three was it? 6019, 6112 or 6095?
thanks
wayne
Wayne ... offhand, I really cannot recall! I'll check the video I took of that trip this Saturday and should be able to tell you.
--Mark
One of the great flaws in Chicago's upgrading of its elevated system has been its refusal to adequately preserve its ancient elevated stations. The recent opening of the new Garfield Blvd. station on the South Side line and the attendant destruction of its canopies and platforms is a case in point for now Chicago is deprived of any station dating back to its inaugural line's opening in 1892. When the Douglas line is rebuilt in four years, all of the original 1895/1902 stations of the old Metropolitian Elevated will be things of the past and save for the refurbished Ashland Station on the Lake Street L, all of its original stops on the West Side will have faded into history. Even the Northwestern lines can expect to see their old stations reduced to dust when they (the lines) are rebuilt in a few years. This is sad for the stations are an elevated's signature in that they are a reflection of the times in which they were built.
New York is no better. The last of the Brooklyn Broadway El's vintage Nineteenth Century stations over Fulton Street disappeared back in the 1970s though some old station houses and staircases still exist along various portions of the line. The days of the old pot belied stoves for which the New York Els were so widely known disappeared along with Manhattan's Third Avenue and Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue Els in 1955 and 1969 respectively. For the most part all, if not most of the stations of the Dual Contract Els (and the Broadway El's reconstruction) are still extant and are over eighty years old. This is longer than that of the longest running Manhattan El, the Third Avenue line, which expired after seventy seven years of service in 1955.
All of this is to say that whenever these stations are eliminated in the name of progress, the respective city's lose a part of themselves. To be a true rail fan entails more than just a love of trains; it involves acquiring a deep appreciation of the the culture in which they were built, and which they ran. The elevateds themselves would have bored me years ago had I not developed a curiosity about the cultures that built and sustained them for therein lied a thousand tales. The stations themselves have served as bookmarks and their elimination, whether the respective lines were cut down or not, left a book that was absent some of its most interesting pages.
Eric D. Smith
The elevated lines in Chicago and New York provide a unique character that defines neighborhoods - for better or for worse. Yet it seems Chicago has had very little regard for its history as it plunges head-first into modernizing century-old stations by tearing out nearly the entire structure and replacing it in some cases with a hideous, full-width canopy spanning the track area and both platforms.
New York, it seems, has gone for a more incremental approach, installing wind screens and new lighting fixtures but keeping the basic flavor of stations such as those on the J/Z line on Broadway in Brooklyn or those on the No. 7 line. Yet I wonder how long it will be before major changes happen as aging steelwork deteriorates and pressure for ADA compliance mounts.
I, too, mourn the passing of the pot-bellied stoves, gooseneck platform lamps and decorative wrought-iron railings - not to mention the old-style token booths and wooden turnstiles that once were fixtures on New York el lines. But changing times have made necessary different methods of fare payment, brighter lighting and higher levels of security, and a major transit system can't ignore its primary mission of transporting passengers safely and efficiently.
That said, I do believe New York's surviving els deserve proper historic recognition and respect for their heritage. As much of the lines and stations as possible should be preserved during any reconstruction. The els have outlasted several generations of rolling stock (and riders!) while providing transportation that made it possible for their neighborhoods to thrive in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, on the Fulton Street portion of the J/Z lines, the original steelwork which supports the (modernized) canopy still exists at three of the stations - Crescent, Norwood and Cleveland. Some of the dual-contracts stations, in fact quite a number of them, have had their lighting upgraded - and it's not pretty- gooseneck lights that look nothing like the period lights they replaced. The advantage of these is that they are VERY bright and thus the stations where they have been installed are safer. I miss the old cast-iron fixtures. They ARE available but are costly - so far only three stations have them: Queensboro Plaza (upper level), Myrtle Avenue (J/M/Z) and Sheepshead Bay (Circle & Slant Q). Here in New York they are treating the old stations pretty well -SO FAR. To wit: the #1 and #9 line north of Dyckman, the #2/#5 line from Jackson to East Tremont (except for Intervale), mostly original except for windscreens and those ugly gooseneck lights.
wayne
How are the Bronx B and D riders handling the 34th St. Terminus? Are they able to get downtown effectively? Are the various shuttles working well? Are the W and Q riders handling the Broadway routing without problems? Is the Grand st. to Dekalb bus getting good use (is it still operating?) Ditto re: the M extension down 4th Ave. to 9th Ave. or Bay Parkway, after the PM rush hour (why done?)? (Why not just run frequent bus service from Grand St. to Canal St?) How are W riders handling the Pacific St. terminal on weekends? Do they take the long N and R ride through the tunnel and local ride up Broadway or do the go one stop to DeKalb and change to the Q bridge (Manhattan express)train, or do they tend to transfer at Pacific St. for the Q or 2,3,4,5 at the connecting Atlantic Ave. stations. Does the added W Astoria service reduce crowding and operate effectively?
Are the riders generally accepting the changes without much complaining? What are your thoughts on the changes?
Mike Rothenberg
betcha can't say THAT (post) three times fast.
"How are the Bronx B and D riders handling the 34th St. Terminus? Are they able to get downtown effectively?"
No complaints from the Bronx, I don't think anybody really wants to get farther down then 34th anyway. But if they do, they have the A/C/E, and they also have two trains to connect to at 34th, the F and the S.
I've heard from business associates that use the "W", formerly the "B", that it's not really that big a deal.
Instead of getting off at 42nd and Sixth, they get off one block west at Broadway and 7th. It takes the same amount of time to and from work. The only complaint is congestion in and out of DeKalb, and a suggestion to extend the M all the way to Coney Island during rush hours.
I also have a business associate who commutes from Astoria - Ditmars Blvd., and he loves the new W express service.
There's no room for the M at Stillwell (rush hours or otherwise), unless you'd prefer to cut back one of the other lines.
Will the Stillwell rehab change the track configuration? A bit more flexibility in routing would be nice. (A fifth platform would be even nicer, but it's probably not worth the expense.)
Wait a minute, the "W" and "N" share a two-track terminal at Ditmars, why can't the "W" and "M" share a two-track terminal at Stillwell?
wayne
The cars need to be cleaned somewhere.
Notice that the two Q's share a north terminal but the Q-diamond can't fit into Stillwell. Same reason.
Has the TA ever experimented with car cleaners on the move?
And the W and N aren't getting along that well up there...
They're getting along Greek style in Astoria.
The ASS-toria line, then.
David,
I respectfully disagree. Before the Manny B. chaos began in the mid '80's, The following trains used Stillwell:
B
N
QB
M
F
D
Today, the only trains are:
W
N
F
Q
So, there should be enough room for the M train, at least during rush hour.
Well, you can combine a few of those: the "D" back then acted more like the Slant Q does today-terminating at Brighton Beach during the express hours, so it effectively alternated with the "M". The "QB" had very limited service and stuck its nose in only during the rush hours.
wayne
Correct - I think the QB used to be maybe 6 trains maximum during the morning and evening rush hours.
And if they didn't have the available cars, it was too bad, you'd get 4 or 5 runs. This was in the late seventies-early eighties when things were falling apart.
There were always 4 Lines into Stillwell, no matter what letters were used
But not all ran at once. Evenings, nights, and weekends, only the B, D, F, and N ran to Stillwell, and middays only the B, F, M, and N ran to Stillwell. Only rush hours were there five services to Stillwell (B, F, M, N, QB), and the QB only ran peak direction service, so cleaning the cars between runs (which eats up time at Stillwell) was unnecessary.
The W and M can't both terminate at Coney eh? Well, normally I like to disagree with Mr. Greenberger, but right now I can't (shoot!).
David has forgotten the prime example, the F train. The F runs at 4 minute headways. This would be the combined Stillwell terminal of the W and M.
But, the F doesn't send trains at 4 minute headways to Coney Island. Some trains are turned at Kings Hwy for that specific reason that D. Greenberger has mentioned.
So, good work Dave, I can't argue with you on this one.
To get to Brooklyn from Grand Central, I always took the #6 to 53rd St. took the F to Rockefeller Ctr., then took the D from there. Now I go one stop further to 59 St. to the N,R or W to 57 St., then take the Q. The ride is a little bit quicker on Broadway than the 6th Ave in my opinion. PS keep the R-68's, and Q trains on the Broadway Express when the 6th Ave. side of the Bridge reopens in 2004.
Wouldn't you be better off taking the 4/5/6 to 14/Union Sq, then switching to whatever "BMT" Brooklyn service you need on the Broadway Line (N Q R or W)?
For "old timers" like me that's the way it always was prior to Chrystie St (1967). Or, you could take the 4 or 5 to Atlantic Ave and then pick any of the "BMT" South Brooklyn services - not possible in 1967 unless you wanted to pay a double fare.
Chances are they WILL keep the "Q" on Broadway once everything's ironed out, but it will be the Slant Q and you'll have 36-year-old R40s. The "W" will be short line to Whitehall with the "N" going back to its original ways, express over the Bridge and also on Broadway. The Circle Q will then again be the "D" and the "W" in Brooklyn will then become the "B". Just hunches. Nothing is chiseled in stone yet.
wayne
A hell of a hunch and get the stone out. I would chisel it myself to get my Sea Beach back on the bridge. I will come to New York when that happens and buy hot dogs for all those who join me at Nathans.
It makes some sense, Fred, having the "N" via Broadway Bridge express, that's the way they've done it for years. It's a BMT tradition! Bring back the Triplexes! And for the Montague Tunnel services: mid-day and rush hour "M" service, as it is now, along with the "R". In Manhattan, two Broadway locals: "W" and "R". Up in Astoria, if the express service survives, it gets turned over to the now-express #4...er, I mean "N", with the "Weak and Weary" doing what it was originally designed to do - go local.
Out on 4th Avenue, "N" will be express when the "M" is running local - so you have "B" and "N" express, "M" and "R" local.
wayne
"It makes some sense, Fred, having the "N" via Broadway Bridge express, that's the way they've done it for years. It's a BMT tradition! Bring back the Triplexes! And for the Montague Tunnel services: mid-day and rush hour "M" service, as it is now, along with the "R". In Manhattan, two Broadway locals: "W" and "R". Up in Astoria, if the express service survives, it gets turned over to the now-express #4...er, I mean "N", with the "Weak and Weary" doing what it was originally designed to do - go local.
Out on 4th Avenue, "N" will be express when the "M" is running local - so you have "B" and "N" express, "M" and "R" local."
I hope they keep the W in Astoria after the North side of the bridge is completed. But new service would be W from Astoria to Whitehall Street via the Broadway Local track. Meanwhile, the N should be put back on the bridge all the times except late nights. Also, the N should be the express in Queens during rush hours.
As for the Q, the Q should be kept on the Broadway Line and should run via local on the Brighton Line while the D becomes the Brighton Express.
N/W Bwy Lines
I agree with that since the Q is a shorter line. I know from past experiences that the West End Riders miss those slants. Q may keep the 68's. PS the Broadway Line won't have the 68's if the Q or N does not have it when the 2004 time approaches.
I agree with that since the Q is a shorter line.
But how many people from Brooklyn are commuting to/from Harlem and the Bronx? Unless you're talking about trying to lessen running time? In that case, why is it that the Q wasn't the local and the D the express before the flip? I still think the Broadway line is the better one and should be served by the Express. I think that there should also be some part time Nassau service too, like the old R-Nassau, but not like the old M-Brighton.
OK, N Broadway. That's what I want to hear. We Sea Beach fans are coming out of the woodwork in droves.
And if it means anything, this IND man would also vote to restore the N to its former glory: over the bridge and express all the way to grandmother's house we go. Oops, got a little carried away there.
Speaking of the IND and the Sea Beach, Fred should be an avid supporter of the IND. It won't be until the return of the IND to South BK. that the N will return to it's bridge glory, and if the IND never hooked up to the Manhattan Bridge..... Let's just say that the N would have a permanent residence in the Montague tunnel...
Oh Poor Fred, boo hoo hoo, the Sea beach forever a LOCAL VIA TUNNEL
You are right to Fred s Grandma s place, that is the only reason why he rode the Sea Beach.
Wrong Pal. I could have taken the West End to 62nd Street, or to within one block of my other grandparents house ( I forgot the station) if I chose to. I chose not to. I also rode the Sea Beach to Coney Island. Get your facts straight.
I did , the Sea beach to Grandmas House, It was your choice and final destination Right?
And now a word from our sponsor...:-)
Make Fred Happy, send him a box of grits and a whole onion
Bob, one of these days I'm going to have to fix Fred a good Eastern North Carolina Jewish breakfast: eggs scrambled in butter, grits with onion gravy, and homemade buttermilk biscuits with scuppernog jam - a nice dairy meal.
Now I'm getting hungry... must go to the kitchen and make a batch of biscuits... it'll be morning in 20 minutes, who's to know I had breakfast early?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He would love that except for the grits and onion gravy. BTW eggs are not dairy. Mix some lox in it for him he loves his seafood
BTW eggs are not dairy. Mix some lox in it for him he loves his seafood.
When they're scrambled with butter they are :-) Ditto for the grits (a touch of butter there), and of course buttermilk in the biscuits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like something straight out of Elvis's menu.
Anon: You're asking for it. Are you trying to kill me? Hey the Civil War is over. We're all brothers now.
Are you trying to kill me?
Well, you are a Yankee... :-)
Didn't have any scuppernog jam on hand, but those biscuits were real good with butter last night... found some homemade strawberry preserves this morning for the rest of them... mmmm good!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fred's a Met now. Used to be a Dodger.
Hey, the Mets are really playing great ball right now. Too bad it came so late. It will take a miracle for them to wind up on top now. But it has been fun watching them pound their opponents except for the other way around. My wife is thrilled because she really thinks her Dodgers are going to wind up first or become the wild card. I am quietly laughing inside.
I'm not going to ask what happened after the 1988 LCS. The Mets had their chances and blew it.
I forgot to ask him about that
He is still a Yankee, Yankee anyone born within 100 miles of NYC, or overseas Any US Native Born Citizen, how the Crackers down south take that Who knows? Even by me I like to kid my boss from Lousiana that overseas he is a Yankee
The biscuits and jam sound great and my mouth is watering thinking of it, but grits is something I cannot fathom. The only thing worse is onions, as you know by now. I just got finished reading General Philip Sheridan's Memoirs. Got the book at Manassas. Virginia is a very attractive place, and, yes, I liked North Carolina when I was there with my baseball team in 1973. Hey, get busy and help elect Elizabeth Dole to the US Senate next year.
Hey, get busy and help elect Elizabeth Dole to the US Senate next year.
Ewww. She was the Secretary of Transportation in 1984. That's all I have to say.
Ataway 8AVEXP. We need all the support we can get on this topic. Good to hear you're on board.
Don't forget I have a soft spot for the N. After all, the very first subway train I ever rode on was an N. I can still see those shiny new R-32s with their blue doors and green backlit side destination signs, zooming effortlessly along 4th Ave. and Broadway.
Attaway, keep those memories fresh.
WayneR40, you're a gem. Good show. Boy if that could only come to pass. Maybe someone at the TA will read your post and get religion. Then we can really chow down at Nathans, though I'll leave the hot dogs to you guys while I chow down on the shrimp.
Before or after you ride on the Cyclone?:-)
The Cyclone first, then Nathans then the N Train
Are you talking about me? Put the N train first because I have to get to Coney Island, then the Cyclone, then Nathans. Then the bathroom behind Nathan's that BMT Doug pointed out to me when I went railfanning last April 1.
No, the order we did NYC on Thursday, we drove into Brooklyn, you rode the Cyclone, then we ate at Nathans, then rode the N Train, are you that senile that you forgot already? I think it is the lack of Onion in your diet.
I can just hear the two of you on the radio now. I'd be ROTFLMAO.
We really make your day, don't we Steve? Well if our fire warms you you're welcome to sit by it. Enjoy, there is more coming.
Correct, Fred and I are only the beginning. But we get along as long as we don t talk politics. We had 11 days together when he was here last month and had a great time.
Right you are. We had a blast.
In fact Fred thought the area was beautiful(Northwestern Va, but he is now a California, and nothing will change his mind, because he lives and works in a Upper Middle Class Town called Arcadia and rarely goes out to see the real Southern California
The real Southern California is Arcadia, San Dimas, Palos Verdes, Santa Barbara, San Diego, etc. For the most part it is a great place to live and work. I love it. But Bob is right, Virginia is pretty country and the people were great. But I'm a Californian.
And I'm a native Hoosier. Even though I've lived in Colorado for 21 years now, I still don't consider myself a Colorodan. Notre Dame subway alumnus, yes, Mets and Giants fan, yes. The Broncos and Avalanche are great; the Rockies and Nuggets, well, we won't go there. I'm still a New York pro sports fan.
Now back to the Bob and Fred Show.:-)
I am a Notre Dame fan. They have been my favorite college football team along with (don't laugh) Navy. You might be interested to know that I was also a big fan of Indiana U. in basketball. I remember how they lost to Kentucky in 1975 even though they had a better team than they did in their unbeaten 32-0 season in 1976. I thought that when Leskowsky and Green left the team they wouldn't be as strong in '76. But Benson, Buckner, Abernathy, and Co came through big.
Which Giants? As to me when I moved to LA from Brooklyn I was a Yankee,Knick-Football Giant and Ranger Fan, I stayed with all those teams thru out all the years, even when each one was in the celler. College I had a dream as a kid going to UCLA and eventually did. I rooted for the Lakers in the 50 s and 60s because of Ruddy laRusso, who was a good friend of my cousin in High School in Brooklyn, when Rudy went to SF I droped the Lakers. I am not like Fred and other Californians who drop a team when they are low.
The football Giants.
Too bad ND didn't show up for the Nebraska game.
How about The Valley, West LA, South Bay, Santa Monica, but you forget older areas like East LA, So LA, Watts, Compton, No Long Beach, where either Hispanics of Afro-Americans Live, or Monterey Pk where it is Asian. Fred the Anglo is a minority in LA County
Fred the Anglo! Very strange to say the least. Since when is an Italian-American an Anglo? We are Latin. As for those neighborhoods do New Yorkers brag about Bed-Sty or Harlem or East New York when lauding the virtues of t heir fair city. I think not. So why should we Southern Californians brag about Watts, North Long Beach and Compton when we boast of our great area. It is unfortunate these neighborhoods are in disrepair but all cities have such areas and we must accentuate the positive. As for that slam of just ignoring minority areas let me set you straight that we have real open housing here and our neighborhoods are getting more integrated by the month. We are a hell of a lot more tolerant of each other out here than you guys are in your neck of the woods.
Only because we were driving into town numnuts. When I fly in, I do it in the order I described. And since this was the only time I drove in, figure it out for yourself. And BTW, you need a lot more bran in your diet.
And you need some grits with onions
Yuk!!!!! What the hell kind of a friend are you offering me that fare? You want me to have a heart attack?
Your bantering reminds me of a sports talk show we have in Denver. It's hosted by two ex-jocks, one of whom played for the Browns and is in the Colorado Sports Hall of Fame, the other played in the NBA. The former is the straight man while the latter is about a step and a half out of kilter and stammers a lot. The two lines heard most often are, "What is wrong with you?" and, "I'm going to hit you so hard." Throw in a few rim shots and an occasional "Ewww!" by the female sports reporter at that station and that sums it up.
BTW, which one of you two is the straight man?
NEITHER, as to Fred, when he told me he hated Onions and Grits, I just have to keep it up, but he loves that Sea Food. By the way Fred you forgot the home grown Zuccinni, shall i send it to you COD???
No, HERRING.:-)
You don't think the M will return to the Brighton as the local during weekdays?
--Mark
I'm in!
And don t forget to order double onions
Hold the mustard.
But bring on Fred s Onions
The "W" will be short line to Whitehall with the "N" going back to its original ways, express over the Bridge and also on Broadway.
They'd probably have to swap the W and N in Queens. I'd instead make the N the local short line to Whitehall and keep the W as is. The B would be extended to become the 4th Avenue Express/Sea Beach Local (skipping DeKalb).
This would cause the least upheaval.
You've just eliminated all railfan windows to Stillwell.
(Yes, I know, car assignments can and do change.)
Oh Dear, you'd give Sea Beach Fred a heart attack if the Sea Beach was ever to wear an Orange sign and the letter "B"!
wayne
Besides that, it will only add more confusion to already disgruntled passengers.
If both sides of the bridge is open:
To make everyone happy, keep the N line via sea beach, but instead make it run over the Broadway Express tracks via bridge. And the B, as it was, via West End. Then short-run the W line (which would run only rush hours) to Whitehall Street from Astoria via the Broadway Local tracks.
In regards to the Q service, the Q line should model the former QB line which once ran on the Broadway Express tracks. The only difference is, run the new Q line every weekdays from 6 AM - 9PM via local in Brooklyn. This means the D will return as the Brighton Line express.
N/W Broadway Lines
The Problem is that is the D Runs Express in Bklyn, it will run only to Brighton Beach. That is why the made the Q the Exp and the D Local so the D would run 24/7 to Coney island rather then having 2 terminals in Brooklyn
I think Bob would like that. Just as long as the Sea Beach goes back to express and over the bridge, then I'm a happy camper. I am not at the present time.
B West End-6th Ave Exp in Brooklyn Local Manhatten and Bronx F-Same as now N-SEA BEACH EXP in Manhatten and 4th Ave, Via Bridge D-Express in Manhatten Local Brooklyn 205-Coney island. Q Express Manhatten and Brooklyn Via Bridge via Bdwy Mon-Sat 6A-9PM W-Astoria-Bay Pkwy Mon Fri-6A-9P Local Brooklyn and Manhatten via Broadway and Tunnel That is what should be done
I assume when you say B local in Manhattan you mean from 59th Street north. Running the B local south of there would jam up the F/V lines between 47th-50th and B'way-Lafayette.
Correct local North of 34th since all stops are local North of there, Express Bewteen W 4-34th
You forgot Nassau St. service. I suggest having an additional Brighton local in rush hours going via Nassau.
That would be the M on whatever line they use it on
Well you can guess that I will ok that for one obvious reason, two if you look carefully.
I agree with you #4 Sea Beach Fre that they should put the "N" (formerly #4 Sea Beach) back over the Manhattan Bridge where it belongs and get it out of the Montague Street tunnel.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I say extend the B to Sea Beach. It's obvious that you people don't care which letter is used to indicate the service.
If you run the "B" on the Sea Beach Line will it run on the 6th Ave. IND line once it is in Manhattan?
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Yes.
Wrong again. I happen to like the letter N. It is my favorite letter and since the Sea Beach lost #4 decades ago, my favorite number as a kid, I would be taken back if they lose the N too. So get this straight, the Sea Beach is and must be the letter N unless they go back to a number system. No B, or Z, or C, or X, or any other letter.
How about W after your favorite president?
No his favorite Pres is a R, and that would kill him if the R was thye Sea Beach
Woodrow Wilson? Who the hell else is W besides him and Washington? If you know anything about me my favorite President and number one hero was and always will be Abe Lincoln. Get that?
I think they're referring to Georgie Porgie.
Is this part of TA's future plan for 2004? If so! I hope they really mean it. If not? You and I will have to figure out something to make sure your trains will crosses that bridge 24/7 as its suppose to.
Good. Another supporter board. Thanks ExpressM. Yes, I think I would do just about anything within reason to get my train out of that stinking Montague Tunnel and back out in God's own sunlight via the Manny B.
Fred have you considered that after 20 years people who work in lower Manhattan because the N serves lower Manhattan. Shouldn't this be considered before moving Sea Beach service back to the bridge?
One of those services will have to use the bridge when 4 services will fit across it. Do you expect the Fort Hamilton line go express over the bridge?
Why does the bridge have to be used to capacity? If the Bridge is run to capacity then the tunnel can't be. And it would seem that with the sea beach running through the tunnel for 20 year would change commuting patterns. Perhaps sea beach services could be split between the bridge and tunnel.
Tunnel R and W Mon-Fri 6A-9PM other times R only Bridge N-Q Broadway Side, 6th Ave Side B & D
The only answer is to keep the Q, W, N, and R the way it is for Broadway and have the B, D and maybe another line to add to the 6th Ave mix on the north side. If you move the N to the bridge, many riders will be confused just like the day the switch took place. On rush hours the N can move to the Bridge if you have W trains operating rush hours only.
Well a little confusion is the price to pay for repaying the wrong done to my train. The confusion will last only so long as the passengers involved g et their heads out of their pockets and read the new signs of the Sea Beach going over the bridge like it should. End of story.
Both the bridge and the tunnel are currently under capacity. With the additional two tracks open, both sets of track and the tunnel can be used to capacity with greater service south of DeKalb Avenue.
NO!!!!!!! They can take the R and transfer if they wish once they into Brooklyn. The bridge---period.
They can if they want to, but I doubt they will
Good point.
It's easy to sit here and decide which trains should go where. But, really, before permanent changes are made, the TA should determine which service would be most useful in each corridor and try to accomodate that as best as possible.
For instance, Sea Beach trains have run through downtown Brooklyn and lower Manhattan and have made local stops in Manhattan for over a decade. It's certainly conceivable that substantial numbers have moved into the Sea Beach service area to take advantage of this service pattern (or, similarly, that residents along the Sea Beach line have taken jobs at Broadway local stops). If that's the case, shouldn't the N stay as it is?
I voted for the N back Exp on Bdwy via Bridge too
I caught that. I thought you were trying to play a trick on me, but maybe even you have seen some light. Good show. How's the job going?
No Trick put the N back on Express, and the job is good so far
That means you two will represent the south side bridge tracks someday.
Besides that, it will only add more confusion to already disgruntled passengers.
It would cause less confusion. Under your plan, the Brooklyn W would have to be eliminated to replace the B, under my plan it would be the N, in which case the smaller group of passengers would be inconvenienced. In Manhattan, under my plan the Broadway line would still have the N and R as locals and the Q and W as expresses, nothing changes. Under yours, the N and W would have to swap. Finally, if the W became the local short line, it would have to become the Astoria Local, leading to another N/W swap.
By extending the B to Sea Beach, the least upheaval can be caused.
In regards to the Q service, the Q line should model the former QB line which once ran on the Broadway Express tracks. The only difference is, run the new Q line every weekdays from 6 AM - 9PM via local in Brooklyn. This means the D will return as the Brighton Line express.
The D would still have to be local to Coney Island off-peak, which would add unneeded confusion. Besides, the Broadway line is the more useful of the two lines and as such the express should run there.
I agree with Pigs, except no B/N Swap. B would replace the W all together in Brooklyn, W maybe Astoria-Bay Pkwy Local all the way on West End Line R/W Local Manhatten Q/N Express on Bdwy
Again, you end up swapping the W and N in Manhattan by doing what you're doing.
Don't call this the B/N swap, it's ridiculous, the B doesn't run on the West End anymore, and for all intents and purposes, the current service plan is permanent. The B returning to Brooklyn would have to replace some line, why should it be the W and not the N? So far I've heard nothing but historical justification. The fact that the B ran on the west end until 1.5 months ago is irrelevant, it is as irrelevant as the fact that the West End line was once served by Broadway Express and Nassau Loop Trains.
Are you saying the B will be like the old BB a Week Day or Rush Hour Train like it was in the 40s and 50s, and NEVER will run to Brooklyn Again. Even in 2004, are you a Psychic and know what will happen,m when the MTA does not. OPigs you gone too Far, next you will say there will be a connection at West 4th from the Brighton to the A Train to 207th St.
A lot of this will depend on the state of the MTA/TA's finances in the future.
Are you saying the B will be like the old BB a Week Day or Rush Hour Train like it was in the 40s and 50s, and NEVER will run to Brooklyn Again.
No, I am proposing that the B run via Sea Beach when the north side reopens.
Even in 2004, are you a Psychic and know what will happen,m when the MTA does not
I am only proposing this. I am almost certain that the MTA will restore the B to West End.
There already is such a connection. It's just not used in regular service.
That connection is currently used to run D trains in night hours to what I saw MTA's website. D runs on the A from W. 4th St. to the Bronx. That's only temporary of course. F runs on A from W. 4th down to Jay St. when diversions occur via Rutgers lines. Could you ever see the JFK express as a regular again? Nah! Don't think so! B will be on West End. N will see the Sea Beach. D will be Brighton Express. Q will be Brighton Local. W will be a rush hour version of the B with exception that it will be probably on the same run now, but from Ditmars to Bay Pkwy only. You could see the M on Brighton on Rush hours only as a supplement to the D and Q. F, N, and R will be left untouched with exception that N may be possibly express in Manhattan via Bridge.
I think the D will return to the Brighton as a local and the Q as an express as in the imediate past, and maybe the M on the brighton rush hours
I prefer this plan, when the 4 tracks on the MannyB are fully opened:
via bridge:
B,D, and "orange" Q runs via North Side (as before).
N and W runs via South Side.
via tunnel:
M and R runs via Montague Street tunnel as usual.
Service in The Bronx, Queens Manhattan, and Brooklyn:
N run regularly as usual between Astoria and Stillwell.
W runs express via N from Astoria through Manhattan to Stillwell
Express in Queens and Manhattan: To Manhattan (AM hr) To Queens (PM hr).
Express in both direction in Brooklyn (Since there are 2 epress tracks).
Rush Hours, Midday, and Evening until 9:30 PM.
No Service after 9:30 PM Weekdays; and on weekends and nights.
B and M runs regularly on the West End as before.
D and Q runs regularly on the Brighton as before.
I'll drink to that. I was looking for the Sea Beach on the bridge. I got it. Therefore your plan passes muster with me. Aren't you thrilled?
N can still be express, but put the Q on Broadway express and terminate at Queensbridge to give F riders an alternative when they get to that stop from Queens. R-68's on Q just might be the answer, but then again slants may be the premium. Note, what and where will the Q terminate at on the 6th Ave line if you have the F and V mix. That will be a little too much. We'll see!
Keep the Q on Broadway, run it thru to 179th Queens EXP E-Q Local F-R
Keep the Q on Broadway, run it to Co-op City or Dyre Avenue via Second Avenue.
If and when they build the 2nd Ave, whenPigs Fly and are Kosher is my guess
Genetic engineering my friend, genetic engineering indeed.
Out of them all 179 St. is the best for the Q, and R-68 cars supreme.
Right on.
Well, you could run the V as scheduled through 53rd., local in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn (Culver). Terminate F at 57th/6th, local in Manhattan, express in Brooklyn (Culver). Then run Q via 63rd from Broadway, express in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn. Or replace current plan of F 63rd express service with both Q and F express 63rd service, each with half the number of tph that the current F has, running Q express under Hillside Av.
Yes, Fred! I'm trilled. I' can't wait to see what going to happen by 2004.
Sorry, "express"
If you do not want to confuse passengers, the part-time Q service should be express and the 24/7 D the local. I would expand the times of operation of the Q from 9:30 to 10:30 PM, and add weekend service.
6AM-10PM Mon-Sat 630AM-9,00PM Sundays for the Q Express
If you extended the Q to those hours, then you could make it the local to Coney Island, and the D exp. to Brighton Beach. The only time the D would run local to CI would be late nights, and this isn't even shown on maps (only mentioned as "special late night service"), so it would be less confusing. This is what they should do.
whats your website address?
http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html (history of each line)
/erc.html (East River Crossings plans)
This is what they should do.
No, I think the primary service should run via Broadway. It is the better line.
You got that right........
My blood pressure jumped at least 20 points when I read his post. We ought to pay him a little visit.
Fred, you opend a can of worms when you were here. Lesson #1 To Lower your blood pressure. Have a slice of onion
Or garlic.
I take a garlic pill every day. Garlic is great except for the breath when you eat it in sauce, but onions are a whole different thing. I hate them with all the passion I have, and once broke up with a girlfriend who love them and told me should make me like them. I dropped her on the spot. No kidding.
I thought Garlic was to keep Vampires Away, didn t they find some bats on the Sea Beach a couple weeks ago?
Nope, only pigeons. :o>
wayne
Forget it Pig. You're raining on our parade and your antagonism towards the Sea Beach is sickening. Shame on you. Maybe you need a little friendly persuasion to cause you to rethink your thoughts, but hell you probably think that means knuckle sandwiches. Well it doesn't, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to keep hammering away at you until you see the light.
Next stop on the Sea Beach, New Utrecht and 62nd Street.
But you yourself stated that you'd like the Sea Beach to run over the Manhattan Bridge and all express regardless of which line it uses. The letter is irrelevant since you like numbers better.
I guess B is bad because it's the second letter, and you never liked the 2, whereas N is the 14th letter, which is a combination of 4 and 1.
Your last sentence.....I like it and I think you might be on to something. I never figured it out that way, but you might be right.
OH MY GOD! NO!!!
N Broadway Line
Astoria-Broadway-SeaBeach
Forever
From my prospective no.Then again I take the Q so it really doesn't matter.
Come See.
The Maryland MTA has finally thrown in the towel on the oddball track stucture used on Howard Street. When the Central Light Rail Line was built in 1991, the track did not use any form of direct fixation, relying instead on a totally unproven method of using a mixture of concrete and gunnite to hold the rail in place. Not one enginner associated with the project knew how it would work. There were continuing problems from day 1 with concrete spalling, rail wearing in strange places and other track problems.
With the shutdown of the Howard St. trackage due to the CSX fire in July, the MTA let five contracts that resulted in 80% of the rail ripped out and replaced with new rail using convential fixation method. All the rail has been replaced except at street crossings, where the old system is still in use. They will be replaced later on non-sports weekends, as the MTA is "under the gun" to get service resumed by the Raven's home opener on September 9. The crossover at Frankin Street will not be replaced, as it was originally imported from Germany already gauged and was simply bolted to the track slab. At all other place, the slab is notched for the rails.
Question: At the Heath St branch of the MBTA Green Line, beyond the Art Museum, you have a section of street running with shared tram/car right of way. Those rails are sunk into the road. Are they fixed using conventional fixing methods? It's definitely not evident.
That is most likely standard street railway construction - rail spiked to ties, gauge rods between rails with paving up to the rail head
Is that how HBLR laid its track in Essex Street and the surrounding area? They added Belgian blocks for a nice effect but the street's bumpy as hell.
wayne
Most likely not, as trackage laid for LRV's is usually laid with modern fixation methods that do not use ties. It's possible that the track on Essex street was laid on concrete ties, then paved, as the top paving level can be any paving material.
The track is very new between Brigham Circle and Heath Street. The public backlash at the potential cutback to Brigham Circle was enough to make the T rebuild. I remember seeing it being built, and I recall concrete slab though I may be mistaken...
I had heard this was being tried before but I didn't realize it was that extensive (I thought it would only be tried for a couple of blocks or so). It's a wonder the rail holds the gauge given the brittle nature of concrete in tension - the forces on the rails have to be pushing outward and forcing the gauge to widen, especially on curves and grades (maybe the lack of these on Howard St is what kept the rail intact). It seems as though a gauge bar every so often would be a sensible 'belt and suspender' just to ensure that gauge could be held.
Most people think that rail in pavement has no structure of its own and relies on the pavement to keep it in place. That certainly is not true.
this evening i returned from another 1 day greyhound trip using my 60 day unlimited travel pass... i was in a foul mood, as i had fallen asleep during the 2nr bus ride, and dreamt that i had a 60 day unilimited subway pass good only on lines served by r68's and r142's... normally i go right out of the port authority into the 8th ave subway, and go down to w. 4th street to change for the brighton line... apparently the mta's constant service announcements have begun to penetrate my consciousness, as i remembered that i had to walk over to 7th avenue...
while i was stumbling along the underground passageway, i looked up momentarily, from my normal scanning of the ground for unusually large footprints which might confirm my theory that the lock ness monster is now in new york city, and noticed tremendous piles of dust along the top of the lighting fixtures and piping... this is disgusting and outrageous!!!... i pay good money, that i hardly earn, to travel to the city... i want to get away from my normal surroundings... what happens??... i am forced to look at piles of filth which are almost as big as i have to look at in my own apartment...
what would it take for the mta to buy an industrial shop vacumn, some extra hosing, and a brush attachement??? i hope that the passageway has not been given landmark status, and as a result it cannot be altered...
Perhaps it's time for a telethon. But really inquiring mimes knead to no if the "official bouquet de Nueva York" is still bountiful down there. I believe the french refer to it as "Pierre" ...
aint that the passageway with the saying along the ceiling?
Anyway, who cares about dust, you wanna see some real dirt, go climb down onto the tracks and into the tunnels. Actually, don't do that unless you wanna get arrested or killed.
"who cares about dust?"
i'm obsessed with dust and filth... as i walked in that passageway, i was consumed with a fear that one of those large hunks of filth would fall down on my head... there was no avoiding the stuff... i became highly agitated and had to find a men's room where i could wash my hair and clothing in lysol, before i could continue on my trip home...
again what would it take to run an industrial shop vac through there?? if they don't want to buy one, then park the vacumn train in the time square station, and hook up some hose and a large dust brush, and the job could be done...
to be perfectly honest and gross, i don't believe that those masses are dust... i believe they are rat droppings from the large number of rats that use those fixtures and pipes to transfer from the bmt/irt to the 8th ave ind...
Maybe the pigeons did it! :o>
Go up to 168th St-Broadway on the #1/9 and watch the flying rats do their thing. It's enough to make your stomach do flips. Check out the crusts forming on the tops of those big glass light globes. They're so filthy, nobody will clean 'em.
wayne
Ever plow a driveway after a heavy snowfall? You spend a few hours shoveling all the way from the garage in the back to a few feet past the curb. Not just leveling the snow but actually getting every little bit of it out. Finally you get to the front curb. You sigh because you're finished. You did what you set out to do. Then you turn around and the snow behind you has returned and your next door neighbor comments you haven't done anything?
Sounds like that passageway to me. It can be cleaned several times. Yet as long as people walk thru there, 24/7/365, They will be tracking dirt. And that's not counting garbage that they'll drop.
i'm not talking about dirt on the ground or ordinary dust... i have no problem with dust on the ground, as it helps highlight the footprints of bigfoot...
i'm talking heavy duty accumulation of dust and filth above the light fixtures... this is crap that hasn't been cleaned in years...
i just got a camcorder... i will be in the city today and bring back some pictures of this crap... seeing is believing...
Transit COULD send a mobile wash team in there some night to clean out that entire passageway. But in order to do that the passageway would have to be closed for several hours while it's done. I hope your video shows what time of day you're down there. Even late at night (early in the morning) traffic is busy over there. There might be a major disturbance if people were not able to use the passageway.
i was there 12 am last night and it was crowded...
you sound like you are in the t.a. bureaucracy with your explanations of the difficulties of doing things...
i suppose if it were that disruptive, they could divert customers to the street for a one or two hour period in which they cleaned the fixtures... of course that would mean that the customers would have to leave the subway, but i'm sure that there could be a shuttle bus set up between 7th and 8th avenue, and a couple of hundred conductors directing the crowds, as well as posters in the affected lines and stations alerting customers to a major diversion that is being done to protect their health...
the more i think about it, that crap has probably been up there since 1904...
Perhaps since 1932, since it's part of the Independent Subway.
wayne
heypaul,
as a friend, nothing personal, back off!
that is not dust! i'll tell you what it is!
did you ever see tarnished silver?
well thats what is is!
yeah, thats what i said.
it comes from those homeless sleepovers that grind what few teeth they have left.
If they have fillings, it the silver amalgium dust blown up and on the fixtures while they snore.
i've staked a claim with the department of interior to mine those and other passageways!
if you see some one panning between the rails, it could be me.
so just don't try to jump my claim.
avid
hey avid...
please don't placate me with empty words of reassurance that this is ordinary dust...
the word on the street is that higher ups in the housekeeping department of the mta were avid watchers of the original outer limits series in the 1960's... there was an episode "it crawled out of the woodwork", in which an stubborn ball of dust was sucked into a vacumn cleaner unleashing an energy monster with an unlimited appetite for energy...
i now know (or know now) that this accumulation of dust will remain there forever... if they disturbed it, the entire 600 volt dc supply would be drained and amtrak's 25k would be next...
Looks lke the homeless will say just about anything to justify why they should be allowed to sleep in the subways.
The clean-up sounds like a good use for you know who's doo-rag.
I guess great minds think alike, at least when it comes to
filthy topics. I was through that passage last week and
I noticed all of the dusticles hanging from the conduits.
The ceiling on the south side of the passage is a few inches
lower because of all those pipes and I find it uncomfortable
normally, even more so with the unusual filth hanging down
threatening to land in my head. I've been through there many
times and I don't recall it being that dirty.
Some people have different ideas about how dirty is dirt. Some people will look at the same area at the same time. One will see a little and another will say alot.
Oscar Madison would have found the ceiling dirty.
Oscar Madison's newspaper was supposed to be located over in the Times Square area. Maybe he caused it :-)
It seems the way you are describing it you must get the feeling that you're walking in a cave.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
You mean you actually WALKED that passageway and didn't get stuck in any Gum? Yes, the Gods of Gum have really smiled on the Times Square passage, the Times Square station, and also the Union Square and Atlantic/Pacific complex stations. Mighty gummy stuff. They ought to get some folks out there with gumsticks and hair dryers to get the stuff off.
As far as the dusticles and dustalactites, thats about par for the course. Go see some more of these at Lexington-53rd or 5th Ave-53rd, where they stick out between the aluminum panels. These are only two of many places throughout the system where you can see these unique formations.
wayne
I certainly hope that all of the dust in the passageway isn't given landmark status since then you'll have to look at the mess every time you walk through there. I agree with you that they should get an industrial strength vacuum and clean up the mess altogether. Besides breathing the dust can be a health hazard for some people.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I've seen the mobile wash team in there a few times. They only clean the floors and walls, not the ceilings. I guess the MTA figures that New Yorkers don't look up. Either that or the wash team doesn't want that crap falling down and clogging the drains.
when the man in the r142 automated announcements says: "stand clear of the closing doors...."... there is something about the inflection in his voice that sounds almost cheerful or pompous... it does not quite fit with my mental image of what a conductor should look and sound like.
typical mta conductor
i agree i wish for them to remove it. but, it is there for a psychological reason. the man is more likely to get the attention of others with their loud bassy voice.
This is subway related & is tied into what video camera U feel is best for shooting the subway / rail transit systems etc...
I own a few sony camcorders the tr818 & the 1999-2000 & tr 416 with 0.4. natural low light lux shooting ( my favorite )...
The sony camcorders boast of having the " Nigntshot " feature which looks like somehting out of the blair witch project !!!....lol !!!
However maybe some of U out there may own this JVC model with the special NIGHT ALIVE feature .... How does it work ??
Did you like it ?? Also i would like to later ask a question about your digital still camera if U own one ....
I would be glad to hear from anyone on this forum who owns or has seen the NIGHT ALIVE feature on any JVC camorder
!!.........lol !!
& of cource { on topic } how did it work in the subway? ...................lol!!!
I think you're replying to the wrong post.
Dan
sorry
a post is a post is a breakfast cereal company.
actually female voices are more audible to people with limited hearing, because they span a range where the human hearing is most sensitive. the components are also important, which is why the voices you hear on the telephone exchange are mostly female, and usually someone whose voice would be considered "soft but firm" -- giving a mental image of a grandmother. sexy voices are usually not good for said hearing-impaired people because they are too high and the harmonic components are too concentrated for their system of hearing to decipher. male voice is a bad idea for a different reason, in that human ear are not as receptive to the low freq range, esp when you are hearing impaired.
True, but any woman will tell you that men never listen when a woman speaks. And since the big complaint is that people can't hear the PA when a live conductor speaks, clearly the study groups behind this project nixed that idea. :)
any man will tell you that they would listen if a woman with sexy voice speaks!! heh
And women would throw it right back saying "my mouth is up here." :)
What is annoying is the announcement from the man "Stand Clear of the Closing Door Please". That voice sounds like a southern accent instead of a real New Yorker accent. Now the real thing would be this "Number 6 train to Pelham Bay Park, Please step in and, Stand Clear of the Closing Doors". Simple, very simple. One male voice like the real thing and no dual voices. When you stop at a station, it would be the same way, but in a easy male voice that is not annoying.
My good man, you've been away too long. While you were away, the R-142's have been equipped with new conductors, formerly employed by Radio Shack who are cheerfully locked up in their broom closets and they're really quite pleased ...
New hire R142 conductor
I noticed the site killed the direct link to the picture after posting it - for anyone who gives a BCO, here's a link to the page where the picture existed directly, this should work ...
New conductor module for R142's
The same thing happens on the radio, especially during his tagline. That's how I figured out which Bloomberg personality he was.
What I find most annoying is that there is only one version of
"stand clear..." They should have got the person to record
a few versions of it, then play them back at random. I suppose
if you only go one or two stops it doesn't matter, but...
It would have been nice if they had been able to get celebrities to record the announcements, like they have in taxicabs. The Bloomberg announcers are so goddamn boring! It's always the same, every stop. Part of what makes the NYC subway so great is the diversity in conductors. If you've got a good one, listening to the station announcements can be fun. The automated announcers are bland and unexciting and, while clear, detract a lot from the subway experience.
Dan
when the man in the r142 automated announcements says: "stand clear of the closing doors...."... there is something about the inflection in his voice that sounds almost cheerful or pompous... it does not quite fit with my mental image of what a conductor should look and sound like.
It sounds almost too cheerful.
Of COURSE he sounds cheerful ... the announcer doesn't have to ride the trains. :)
its true
I try not to make to many comments here at subtalk, I just enjoy reading the text messages. Anyway my Grandfather retired from the ta seven years ago, the last line he worked on was the flushing (for those that don't know what I'm talking about that's the seven line). He was a conductor, I use to ride back and forth with him from times square to flushing sometimes until his trip was over. Anyway one day I told him that the seats on the r62s r62a were to small. His comment to me was "people are never happy" you give them new equipment they complain if you let them ride for free they would still complain. At the time I could'nt understand what he ment, but after reading all of these complaints about the r142s & r142a. I now see what he was talking about.
you should post more, especially with personal experiences like the one you just described...
as for people complaining, and more particularly my complaining and slamming the r142's, i must admit to not riding the subways on a daily basis... if so, i would probably enjoy the cleaner cars, air conditioning, and operating room like lighting which would make it easier for my aging eyes to read the print in books that they seem to be making smaller than years ago, and the imbecilic announcements and messages that distract me from my general funk...
my comments about the new cars reflect a lack of style or mood that the new cars have, when compared to the older equipment (not redbirds, but r1/9's, triplexes,low v's)... this is just the way i feel and perceive things...
on a final twisted note... when you said the last line your grandfather worked was the flushing... i imagined a subway car filled with water and nozzles down at track level... like the old street flushing trucks the sanitation department had that used to flush the streets down with water in the summer...
i haven't seen that in ny for a while, although i was pleasantly surprised to see a street flusher in philly about a week ago...
Okay, I'll try to make more post from now. Anyway thanks for the comments.
i was with my sister who was meeting up with a colleague up on Concourse Village West. they are both ACN representatives. the guy who is the conductor responsible for the draging of a little girl at Nevins St. was there. i didn't know he was a conductor until he opened his mouth about it. his name is Ron and he is now gunning to be an ACN rep. meanwhile to keep his job at the TA, he is being put under investigation because of the dragging. he told me that the Redbirds give the motormen indication even when the doors aren't fully closed. the others don't until the conductor turns the key. when they put him under scrutiny, he can say that the train gave the motormen the indication to go when the door wasn't closed all the way. its not his fault that obsolete machiniery isn't safe.
>>> they are both ACN representatives <<<
ACN ????
Sorry i didn't explain what ACN is. ACN is a Telecommunications company that is dealing with utilies services and deregulation of them. they do many services such as long distance local telephone service, internet, wireless, gas and electric (coming soon)and many other utilities. they are becoming representatives of the company because you will grow big into the company. real fast. ACN = American Comminications Network i have there internet service. it is good but there is room for improvement.
i'm thinking of labor day, as a chance to reflect on how people are laboring through their lives without a vision of happiness or contentment...
organized labor has done much to improve working conditions for the average american... but it is a harder battle to fight against our own thoughts and feelings under which we often spend a life sentence of hard labor... worse, it is often a sentence served in solitary confinement...
to any fellow incarcerates... know that there are people here who care... know also that you don't have to go dragging around the same heavy ball and chain all your life... it may be hard to break free totally, but give yourself a daypass from the camp every now and then... it may do a lot to change your vision of life...
may the fruit of your labors be sweet...
Found info on TurboTrain in the Sikorsky archives.
Okay, I've gotta get this off my chest...
1. Why, at Penn Station (the busiest railroad station in the U.S.) does the LIRR have only THREE vending machines? With each ticket window line at least 20 deep (even on a typical Sunday morning), it would make oodles of sense to install more machines.
2. Why do the vending machines NOT sell off-peak 10-trip tickets? As an occasional off-peak rider, I'd like the convenience of not buying individual tickets each time I ride, AND I'd like to get the 10% discount (pay for 9 rides, get 10). HOWEVER, I don't like having to wait an hour at the ticket window for the privilege.
There, I said it.
1- At penn station there are 6 Tvm, 2 0r 3 Monthly tvms and soon there will be 3 mvm/tvms
[At penn station there are 6 Tvm, 2 0r 3 Monthly tvms and soon there will be 3 mvm/tvms]
I wasn't counting the three that sell only monthly/weekly tickets, because they sell only monthly/weekly tickets.
The three I DID count, which are hidden next to the escalators to the 32nd Street mezzanine, are supposed to be general-purpose, except (as I noted in my previous post) that one of those general purposes was deliberately excluded.
There are three by the escalators, two more over by track 21 in same area of station, 2 more in the long corridor that serves tracks 1-21.
====
The three I DID count, which are hidden next to the escalators to the 32nd Street mezzanine
====
If you turn around, right behind those is another one. There are two by track 21 in the main waiting section and I believe that there are two in each crossway. They are usually behind the track monitors.
-- Kirk
Whatever the case, there certainly aren't enough. At any hours with any crowds at all, the lines for the TVM's are impossible.
:-) Andrew
You’re forgetting the TVM's in the two long corridors. BTW, Penn is not the busiest station in the US, that title goes to Jamaica Station of the LIRR.
As for 10-trips, especially the discounted off-peak variety, I don't think the LIRR wants to sell them, so they make it difficult to buy them. Notice they are only available to Zone 1. MNRR sells them between all zones. Even off-peak tickets aren't available intra-island, so the off-peak fare from Zone 3 to 14 is less than it is from Zone 4.
Yeah. More reasons why the LIRR sucks. That plus the dismal on-time performance.
Andrew
10 Trip Off Peak (Price of 9 off peak) you can not share on LIRR but can on MNRR. For example if you had a 10 trip off peak ticket on MNRR and have your wife with you they will punch two trips on the ticket. No joy on LIRR, I tried and they charge me for my wife including the extra for buying the tix on the train.
Bastards.
I was trying to explain to somebody that a connection from the south side tracks to Grand street was impossible.
The north side tracks turn so sharply north at the end of the bridge, it seems to be that the south tracks couldn't turn to meet them without interfering with the center lanes.
I don't know the details, so can anyone back me up?
I'm sure this has been covered 19,000 times before, so my apologies.
Dave
I agree with you, Dave. It would really be a sharp right turn heading off the bridge, and a really sharp left turn heading on the bridge.
It could be done, but like you said, they would have to close down the center lanes.
think: flexi-straw neck
.....or that best describes the type of turn
the south tracks would need to meet with the
north... and we all know city buses can't
turn on a flexi-straw neck angle unless
given one half city block sidewalk space..
Archives dude, archives.
Forget about whether it's possible.
How could it conceivably be worth pursuing?
Perhaps the TA could spend a small fortune connecting the tracks. That would allow the TA to opt for the pre-July service pattern for the next three years. (Running bridge service via both Broadway and 6th Avenue would cause major delays as the two would cross at grade.)
The major difficulty caused by the flip was passenger confusion. That's mostly over, although some occasional travelers are still trying to use old maps and I suspect many passengers haven't noticed that there are better options than to do whatever they did before and change at 34th. (For instance, I'd like to see how many people are transferring from the 1/9 to the B/D at 59th only to transfer to the Q/W at 34th.) For just about anyone who lives or works at an IRT or BMT station outside Brooklyn, the new arrangement is actually better than the old one.
I have to agree that most people I talk to have found a faster way to get to work as a result of the change.
I got home Friday Night so that is why I am posting now. All trips were made back on August 20th.
I started by taking the M60 from the Upper West Side (RTS 8996) to 125th and Lexington Avenue where I caught the 6. The first train to arrive was R142A 7436, bound for Parkchester. I liked how the train announced "This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train" but got annoyed since it did it at every stop. I would only have that done at 3rd Avenue, Hunts Point, and Parkchester. I also heard the "Ladies and gentlemen, we are being held by the train's dispatcher." The LED repeated the message but the lettering on the LEDs for those announcements is quite akward. I got the impression the Pelham line would be great with a railfan window but I only saw one redbird the whole time (plus another in Pelham yard) and only one or two R62A trains. Everything else was R142A. I also don't like the announcement at the 2nd to last stop when it says "This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train. The next stop is Parkchester." It doesn't sound very good.
At Parkchester, I got off. The next train to arrive was R142A 7401 and it was going to Pelham Bay. I took it to Middletown Road to get some photos, then took R142A 7281 the rest of the way.
The only question I have about this part of the journey is when does the train decide to play the "stand clear of the closing doors" announcement? On the outbound run, the male would cut off the female most of the time. Does the conductor do this?
At Pelham Bay, I got on Queens Surface Orion V/CNG 498 on the QBx1. The trip was quite nice. There was only one lane on the Queens-Whitestone Bridge so we detoured to the Throgs Neck and only arrived a few minutes later in Flushing. I wonder if the Q44 buses were doing the same. Once at Flushing, I headed for the subway again and noticed an Orion V signed as a Q32.
The staircases down to the trains at Main Street are almost as bad as 72nd Street and Broadway. When I got there, a train had just arrived, so everyone was coming up the same stairway people were trying to get down. Once at the platform, I got on the train marked as an express by the overhead signs. A few minutes later, a garbled announcement was made but some people figured out the express was now across the platform. We waited some more before we finally left. Many outbound trains were coming our way. Also, one train left Main Street empty.
The ride aboard WF R36 9460 was quite good. I especially liked the bridge at 111th Street. I got off at Queensboro Plaza, where I noticed an Astoria bound W train with diamond Qs on its side signs and one could only see the bottom half. I noticed one of these cars still had the B/D/Q to Brooklyn.
I doubled back to 33rd Street on 9720, to Woodside on 9472, and back to QBP on 9756, this time on the local. Once there, I took the W to Ditmars on R68A 5098. Between stations, the conductor was trying to explain the W service pattern in Queens and he was quite confused himself.
At Ditmars, I reboarded in 5100 because I didn't want to miss the train but at Astoria Boulevard, the conductor closed up before I could make it to the front. I saw a slant R40 heading north on the N and I waited for it to arrive. It was 4216. No Ws passed us so I am wondering how feasible is the W express middays. The 60th Street Tube was not as exciting as people on the board make it seem. We were regulated by the timers and then coasted the rest of the way to Lexington Avenue. I got off at 49th Street and got lunch. I noticed the sings at 57th indicate the Q can leave from either the southbound or northbound tracks. Is this the case?
I got on the subway again at Times Square, where I noticed most of the diamond Q signage is stuck on the sign wherever they saw room. Did the sign people forget about the diamond Q or something?
The Broadway Express was not very fast, especially between 14th and Canal. Canal (bridge) is very nice. I rode the South Side of the MannyB for the first time, then took the Q all the way to Sheepshead Bay and back to Prospect Park, riding on cars 4240 and 4266.
At Prospect, I took the Franklin Shuttle to Botanical Gardenn (didn't record the car number), then took R33 9127 to 72nd Street on the 2 before using 9178 to double back to Times Square. After going to the Port Authority, I decided I would go down to South Ferry. I took 9148 down to Chambers, then 2410 to South Ferry and to Chambers, and then took 8934 back to 42nd Street where I caught R62A 2266 up to 59th Street.
Once there, I waited 15 minutes for an R38 on the A but it never came. I eventually settled for R44 5342 which I took all the way to 207th. The CPW Express was not very fast in my opinion. While waiting at Columbus, I saw some R68s with some unusal signs. One had a yellow B on the end (and since I wasn't expecting it, I didn't have my camera ready), another train was signed for WTC as its southern terminal. At 207th, I walked to 215th on the 1 and 9. When I got there, I tried to enter on the uptown side but the lone madien wasn't working. So, I had to crossover, and since I wanted to get to 207th to see if the photo vantage of the yard was any better there, I took a 1 all the way to 191st, then a 9 back which I ultimately took to 242nd. I then took a 1 to 125th and Broadway. The last 5 cars of this train were 1674-73-72-71-70 (north end), former Pelham cars. I now took an M4 back to where I was staying.
The next morning, realizing I had left out the 116th Street station, I went back on the 1 to 125th before taking the M101 to where I really needed to go. The M101 limited is quite slow on 125th (where it isn't a limited).
And that, is the end. Please answer as many questions as you are able.
Thanks, in advance.
Sounds like you had a full, but fun day. In Philly , female vioce announces "Frankford train - all stops -or- 69th st. train all stops" at every stop. You're right, this gets annoying, but I guess it has to be done for the sake of uniformity.
Chuck Greene
I have gripes about the M-4s too. The skip stop trains don't announce the next stop until you commit yourself to the train. In other words, the next stop isn't announced until after the doors shut. In Philly, I don't mind the repetition so much because its short and to the point except I think on skip-stop, its very important to announce the next stop before the train doors close.
I liked how the train announced "This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train" but got annoyed since it did it at every stop.
It's a good thing you didn't ride the overnight 2, which declares itself a "Bronx-bound 2 express train" even at local stops. I found that most confusing.
I got the impression the Pelham line would be great with a railfan window but I only saw one redbird the whole time (plus another in Pelham yard) and only one or two R62A trains.
On August 23, I deliberately waited for a Redbird trainset on the 6, figuring it would be my last chance. (FTR, 3rd Avenue-138th Street is a great place to wait for a Redbird. The north mezzanine has a direct view of all three tracks.) En route from 138th to Brooklyn Bridge, I saw two other Redbird trainsets.
I noticed the sings at 57th indicate the Q can leave from either the southbound or northbound tracks. Is this the case?
Yes. There appears to be no consistent placement of diamond vs. circle.
The B/D terminal is handled differently. The B always terminates on the southbound express track; the D always terminates on the northbound express track. (It worked that way from day one, although the initial signs implied otherwise. They were quickly corrected.)
I got on the subway again at Times Square, where I noticed most of the diamond Q signage is stuck on the sign wherever they saw room. Did the sign people forget about the diamond Q or something?
At first they treated the two Q's as a single route. I guess people found that confusing, so diamonds were slapped on most of the signs. Some aren't even the correct size.
At least most of the signs are basically correct now (although there are still some errors at Stillwell and there's a B at New Utrecht-62nd Street).
I believe with the popularity of scrolling letters to illustrate train speeds going around the board that somewhere on the site we should create a list of them or at least a list of the links to the posts. They are very interesting.
Feel free to host them on your own web pages. I can't even see them in my browser.
I am truly hoping that after the Democrats win the election for Nassau county executive, that someone starts the ball rolling in putting a Light Rail system somewhere to relieve the crowded roads. There are still some ROWs left that could be used in some way or another. They could revive the ROW that goes from Garden City to Nassau Community College. There are some points that be served by an off shoot to Roosevelt Field. Also using trolley buses instead of those SLOW moving diesel buses would help move traffic along the way on the conjested roads. These trolley buses have less brake downs than their fossil-fuel burning counterparts.
Even as we post, LITP2000 is seeking to expand the road systems in both Nassau and Suffolk and add an express bus system. The chances of any kind of light rail system right now are not great,c onsidering NYS DOT opposition. Trolley buses aren't even a blip on the radar.
But they might be able to get federal money for a bus rapid transit service with trolleybuses.
There is no plan of any kind for trollrybuses on LI. I don't knwo of any federally sponsored trolley bus projects, do you?
The Nassau Hub transportation plan was in the development stages until about three years ago it seems to have fallen off the map. There were no definite decisions on the final mode/modes to be incorporated but with limited ROW's it would need to be a hybird system to reach all the potential service points such as Roosevelt Field, Nassau Coliseum, Hofstra University, Nassau College, Eisenhower Park, The Source Mall, EAB Plaza, Hempstead, & Mineola.
The LITP2000 project references commuter bus transit utilizing HOV and other technologies but again I dont believe this has departed from the concept stage.
Nassau Hub looked like it had a really good shot in LITP2000 as light rail, but it would seem it is dying from Nassau's fiscal crisis and DOT disinterest.
as promised, i went out with my brand new sony camcorder to film the filthy forty first flourescent fixtures...
fearing that i would encounter problems from the authorities if i was seen fotographing the fantastic filth, i concocted an elaborate subterfuge to hide my real purpose... i hired 4 models normally scene in a famous lingerie catalog, and had them frolick in flimsy fashionable frocks in the passageway... needless to say, passerbys were riveted by the women and hardly noticed me focusing on the filth...
i froze four frames of filthy fixtures...
the first one bears evidence of the layers of filth that have accumulated on top of the flourescent fixtures...
layers of filth
the next shot shows an amorphous blob with tentacles somewhat reminiscent of the outer limits blob
amorphous blob
the third shot shows that people have taken to planting bulbs in this rich fertile filth
layers of filth
and the final frame is evidence that heads of lettuce are growing up there...
layers of filth
in fairness, a closer look at the whole scene just east of 8th avenue in the passageway, reveals a series of 5 bulb lights that were strung together with wires... the wires attracted some dirt and grime... it was the wire that gave the appearance of thick strands of filth...
From one lensman to another...
let no thick strands of filth
gather atop thou camera, Sire..
Keep It Reel'
Wowsers ... I'm impressed. I have a theory that the "creeping crud" is none other than the ghost of Gerhard Melvin Dahl, working his way through the catacombs in search of Mayor Hylan's subway ... who ya gonna call?
That's pretty filthy! You never know what you'll find down there. If you want to see some REALLY CLASSIC FILTH, head down to Chambers Street BMT (bring an umbrella and wear a hard hat) and look at the north end of the closed platform. Also the areas around the closed stairways which lead to the closed platform (the ones toward the south end of the station, where the Great Leak lives) are particularly philthy.
wayne
If you didn't already know... At Chambers the ceilings were painted or are still in the process of being painted atleast on the Queens-bound side. It looks much better. I'm no longer in fear of a strange fungal infection from waiting for a train there. It was pretty nasty looking.
Shawn.
We'll see how long THAT lasts, since they haven't made any effort to plug the underlying leak that causes the mold and rot. I must say this, though- ANYTHING is an improvement over what was there. You'd think they'd use some kind of moisture-proof sealant first, perhaps the stuff they put inside swimming pools would work.
wayne
It would take nothing short of a renovation of Ellis Island proportions to bring back Chambers St. from the magnificent ruin it has become.
There are also a few ancient punch boxes on the northbound platform at Chambers (and maybe also the southbound one, but I was waiting for a northbound train when I noticed them). I wonder if they're still in use. I haven't seen anything like them anywhere else.
I would think the only time they would be used would be for laying up trains on the former bridge leads.
do we get some footage of the females, too?
hey man... you want to see females, go get a copy of victoria secret or some national men's magazine... the models were just a cover for my investigative work... those pictures i posted are real live filth, not some fantasy...
Heypaul: You should submit these photos to the following website:
Filthy Mess
They need some new "dirt".
hey moving platform... thanks for the link to filthy mess... i never heard of that site and i am e-mailing the webmaster of that site... perhaps i can infiltrate that website and start spreading the heypaul virus there... again thanks... if you ever find yourself in a filthy mess, let me know, and i will be happy to record it and make you a public spectacle...
ROTFLMAO
Welcome back, Paul.
Abstitively PHILTHY! We loves it!
wayne :o>
The poor guy who has to clean the platforms and stairways of the system must encounter some really nasty things. The creatures who leave these things must be very repulsive in their own right. Yikes!
Oh shit !!..........this is sooooooo funny !!!!...............LOL !! ........big time !!!................way to go heypaul !!!
mr. salaam allah ( i think you like mister )...
i am glad you liked it...you want to co-produce a 6 hour video documenting filth in the system... we could do an hour in this passageway... an hour at chambers street... a real expose on filth in the air conditioning systems aboard the cars... an hour on the water dripping from the ceilings onto the platforms at various stations and an analysis of what that water really is... an hour on where the rats live and breed in the system... and last but not least an hour highlighting the stations where people frequently urinate and defecate, and turn that into a candid camera episode with durwood kirby and allan funt both brought back from the hereafter to surprise the customers...
OMG !!! oh well nyc home sweet home my birthplace 11-3-51 where i will celebrate my 50th on 11-3-01 !!!
( avoid all syrofoam built R-142s ) ........LOL .....!!!
heypaul,
you may fool the rest of the gulible riding public but not me.
A close examination of each shot has revealed each to be a closeup of TV sportscastors hair peices. The ones combed from one side of the head, above the ear, up and over a BALD expanse to join with growth from the other side of the head. The hair peice is artfully woven with the hair to not show a hair line. The foto with the light bulbs is a newscastor waiting for a witty idea.
avid
avid... you were the one unknown in attempting to foist my fantasy about the filthy flourescent fixtures... you have revealed the truth of my photos... my greyhound hat goes off to you, hopefully without pulling my hairpiece with it...
I like the alliteration.:-)
Even though I've been living in the Glen Cove area for almost 3 years now I have never taken the Oyster Bay train to the end of the line in Oyster Bay. That was until today. The weather was cool and crisp, and the train arrived right on time at 11:17am, perhaps a minute early. After the Glen Cove station things got really, really scenic. To the south, nothing but woods. And the Locust Valley station (which I will be using soon) looked delightful. After Locust Valley it was like a country railroad, with nothing but forest on both sides of us. The only other manmade stuff was subtransmission and distrubution cables. It felt like I was upstate or something. It is a single track afterb Locust Valley. We passed a large pond, and were in Oyster Bay after more woods. Hmm with little roads to ROW, I wonder how LIPA gets to downed wires (don't tell me LIPA has a special train!). Going to Oyster Bay they didn't even check tickets.
At Oyster Bay there was a single platform, which was new. I walked toward the old station, which has signs all over pointing to the new "high level" platforms. In order to get to Roosevelt Park there was a pedestrain only crossing. Wow I never saw one of those. It didn't have flashing lights, just a sign saying to look both ways for trains. Just after I crossed the train that I got off moved very slowly to the yard, and blew it's horn. It braked right before the crossing thenm proceeded into the yard. The park itslef is very nice, with a beach, nice view of Oyster Bay and plenty of open green space. Why haven't I done this before!
I also saw the tracks in the yard, and manual switches right around the ped crossing. They seemed in use, and anybody could throw them.
I walked by the old station, and saw the yard. I could not see the steam locomitive that is supposed to be there.
Well the town was nice, as well as the strip mall I went to about a 30 minute walk to the south, where I got 3 CD's for 3 dollars (who needs Sale of the Century!).
Going back the ride was just as nice. I gotta admit even though the OB line doesn't have much speed it is #1 when it comes to scenery. AFter all speed isn't everything.
I couldn't find the abandoned Mill Neck station. I wonder where the Steam loco is, and when the RR museum will open there. I would highly recommend the Oyster Bay line as a Subtalk trip, for a change it would be a more rural venue.
The steam locomotive is at the northeastern end of the yard on RR property. The reason you don't see it is because it is dismantled in pieces, and you have to go to the eastern end of the park, or should I say past the park on the road that leads into it. Unfortunately since it is on Railroad property, it is very hard to find it unless you can drive to the entrance to the park off of South Street.
The old Mill Neck station a bit north of that pond after the track straightens out. If you are headed toward Oyster Bay, it will be on your left side, leaving Oyster Bay it will be on your right.
Did you see the old turntable ? It's still there in the back of the yard.
If you didn't know, Locust Valley was the original northern terminus of the Oyster Bay branch before it was extended to Oyster Bay in the 1800s.
Bill "Newkirk"
Make sure you go again on a mid-October weekend for the Oyster festival. Driving there is improssible, the trains are packed, the LIRR has the sense to add a collector at Mineola, but not enough to run hourly service for the event.
Speaking of festivals in the fall, anybody know of any good Oktoberfests in this region (northern Jersey/southern NY), or even any Samhain festivals?
Any information on the Rennassaince festival?
Thanks.
Does anyone know on what subway line the neighborhood of the Paulino Little League rests in? I know it is in one of the less affluent areas and that is why I can feel for those young men. What stupid and ignorant parents that boy must have to doctor a birth certificate and tell the kid it;s ok to cheat. Has the bar to human decency and honesty been lowered that much? Now I find out the kid hasn't been enrolled in school for a year and a half. What next? Are we going to find out that the family is in the US illegally? I wanted so much to believe that Danny was really 12 because over three decades ago I had a lefthanded pitcher (and hitter) who was as dominant as Danny was. I know that such a phenom is possible. Alas, I was disappointed. Now th at league will probably lose its Little League franchise and then what will the kids do. As much as I love the subways, I would much prefer them playing baseball than riding the rails=====or worse still, getting into gangs and trouble. Thanks for listening out there.
Fred do you want to visit his neighborhood next time you are in the BX?
Me in the Bronx? Would I be welcome or would I have to travel there incognito? Yes I would visit the Little League field where they played. I liked the idea of a bunch of immigrant kids going up against the establishment and winning big. But, alas, hearing of what came to light made me very disapointed.
I liked the idea of a bunch of immigrant kids going up against the establishment and winning big.
Many of them were natural born US Citizens, like you and I.
I feel sorry for everyone on the team, all of their achievements were erased and it's not their fault in the SLIGHTEST way.
Now, if these age requirements were abandoned and replaced with a fairer system of physical ability, then Almonte would never be in the 11-12 equivalent level, forging documents would do nothing.
Many of them were natural born US Citizens, like you and I.
Or you and me, I don't know which.
The implied end of that sentence is "like you and I (are U.S. citizens.)" In this instance, "I" is correct.
The implied end of that sentence is "like you and I (are U.S. citizens.)" In this instance, "I" is correct.
The word "like" is a preposition in the sentence "Many of them were natural born US Citizens, like you and I." Prepositions require objects, which should be declined in the objective case. Thus, the grammatically correct statement should have been:
"Many of them were natural born US Citizens, like you and me.
The word "as" is a conjunction. It would be used in this sentence as follows:
"Many of them were natural born US Citizens, as you and I [are U.S. citizens].
I stand corrected.
Do you actually stand while posting on the Internet?
Websters dictionary recognizes both the conjunction and
preposition form of "like". In more formal writing, one
would avoid the word entirely and use "as [are]"
When you think about it for awhile, you realize that like can also be used as an adjective or a verb as well!
You is correct!
"Be" is the only verb that still has all of those weird forms, whereas all others are pretty simple. Why is that, and why all of the different forms.
It seems is is related to was, was to were, were to are, and are to am, but where does be fit in all this? Why has the future tense in English become so oversimplified?
And don’t forget “thou art” (Our Father, who art in heaven… for those who learned the King James’ version of the Lord’s prayer).
English, probably because it has been borrowed and returned by so many other cultures, has been simplified over the years, but there are still the metaphorical branches that people can trip over.
John
Yes, I've always felt we should bring back thou, thee and thy. You can really tell somebody how you feel about them that way.
I assume art is to thou as are is to you, they and we? Or is that not it?
I assume art is to thou as are is to you...
Correct.
Thou art is second person singular. The plural of thou is ye (or yiz in North Jersey).
The reason is because "to be" is a commonly used verb. When English became more standardized, the less common verbs were easy to make uniform, but people were so used to all the forms of "to be" that they stuck. This is true of all languages, in German, "to be" (sein)has bin, bist, ist, and sind for present tense.
I liked the idea of a bunch of immigrant kids going up against the establishment and winning big.
Fred, you know I'm going to disagree big time here. The idea of little league is not meant to be an alagory for david and goliath. It's to teach kids the fundimentals of sportsmanship and fair play. This is just the result of adults corrupting a kids game. Can you imagine what these kids think now. Coaches spending tens of thousands of $$$$$$$$s on private investigators just to discredit the team form the bronx.
It's to teach kids the fundimentals of sportsmanship and fair play. This is just the result of adults corrupting a kids game. Can you imagine what these kids think now. Coaches spending tens of thousands of $$$$$$$$s on private investigators just to discredit the team form the bronx.
Do you feel that the bottom line was not that a significant fraud was perpetrated in high visability game, but that people made an effort to expose it? So the exposure is a greater evil than the fraud?
That's kind of the message I was getting this morning from hearing the roundtable on Sam and Cokie and reading at least one column (Wallace Matthews, I think) in the New York Post -- if the Staten Island parents weren't worse than Rolando Paulino and Almonte's dad for paying the private detective $10,000, then there was at least a "moral equivelancy" between the two groups.
Part of that is the press trying to cover its own ass, because a week ago Sunday after the team without Almonte pitching lost to the Floriday squad he threw the perfect game against, the Staten Island parents were being absolutely lambasted by the media for being sore losers and paying all that money to go after Almonte's birth records. There was also a hint of racism in some of the harshest comments about the parents -- that they were only doing this because the team was a group of poor, minority kids from the South Bronx.
The problem is, the press was never going to invest the time and effort Sports Illusrated did this past week when the private detective was paid for after the 2000 LL regional tournament, because Danny wasn't a media star -- who gives a damn about a pitcher on the No. 2 team in the northeastern subsectional, which is I believe where Almonte's team ended up last year. That leaves the onus on the parents if they think (rightly, as it turned out) that they were the victims of a fraud -- they can either do nothing and let it slide, which was unlikly because they knew Almonte would be pitching against their kids again next year, or they could take matters into their own hands and try to prove their suspicions were right. Where they screwed up was in hiring Barney Fife to do the investigation -- a plane ticket to Santa Domingo would have cost way less than $10,000, and since he was born in the Dominican Republic, that would have been the logical place to look for the actual birth certificate.
There's no question $10,000 is a lot of money to spend hiring a private decective for something like Little League Baseball, and it does show some of the excesses parents and coaches will go through to win. But so far, I have yet to read or hear anybody who was blasting the Staten Island parents eight days ago for their actions come back and say "You were right, we were wrong." Most of the press that took after those people would like all they said and/or wrote to disappear down the public's collective memory hole right now.
When the perfect game was pitched and I subsequently heard of the parents and their suspicions I thought they were spoilsports too.
I don't go for this business that if your sports team (including of course, pro sports) is better that somehow you, or your city or state or country is better. But I took a special pride in a New York team excelling in this way, because I felt it showed to the world that New Yorkers could excel at something outsiders would consider nontraditional.
Then it all turns to trash because of a scheming father and a scheming coach and a scheming sponsor who subscribe to the modern theory that winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing.
Thr bright spot for me is the Dominican Republic, who could have covered it up under any number of pretexts but did the right thing and reported the truth. At least I can show MY children that there's still honor inthe world.
That's true -- in these days where it seems like so many controversial things seems to be decided not on the merits but on the basis of "are these people on my side or their side," the Dominican officials did go by the rule of law. There a lot of people in the U.S. who wouldn't have been as honest, based on their own personal/political viewpoints.
The really bad thing is that if people think Little League baseball is the end-all and be-all for this "ends justify the means" attitude, they haven't checked out youth baseball lately. National Little League is loing membership, mainly to the 'select team' concept that has grown up over the last 5-10 years.
Separate organizing bodies like the USSSA (one of the two big national softball governing groups) have created their own national youth baseball leagues which have the age requirements but don't have the area residency rules Little League does -- if you can drive some kids 25, 50 or even 75 miles to practice and play with another group of kids, that's OK, and the parents of some kids are even "compensated" (for travel expenses, hotel stays and 'other' things) for allowing their kids to play on certain teams. So a gung-ho manager who is persursive enough can "select" the best two or three players from this area, and the best two or three players from that area and the best two or three players from another area over there and come up with something pretty similar to what Rolando Paulino did with his Dominican pipeline, and it's all legal under these rules.
The "select" leagues even have state and national rankings for teams at the various age groups, just like the college football and basketball polls, with rankins based on head-to-head match-ups, strength of schedule, average margin of victory, etc. And this is for 12- and 14-year-olds, for chrissake.
The national comptition doesn't have the status right now the LL World Series does, but a lot of parents who only want their kids playing with "the best" players -- not a bunch of kids just picked from around the neighborhood who they think are dragging their sons down -- are going for this concept, and in 10 or 15 years you may see it either overtake the Williamsport tournament, or LL may relax its own rules to compete with the "select team" leagues.
The other people who may end up suffering are the kids on future Little League championship teams. There surely will be more age-based challenges, and kids from countries with inadquate birth records may end up disqualified unnecessarily.
>>> Separate organizing bodies like the USSSA (one of the two big national softball governing groups) have created their own national youth baseball leagues which have the age requirements but don't have the area residency rules Little League does -- if you can drive some kids 25, 50 or even 75 miles to practice and play with another group of kids, that's OK, and the parents of some kids are even "compensated" (for travel expenses, hotel stays and 'other' things) for allowing their kids to play on certain teams. <<<
None of this is new. The Purdue football team got its nickname, the "Boilermakers" from a tendency in the early days of having local factory worker "ringers" on their college team. In the ‘50s in Ohio and Pennsylvania, where many lived vicariously through their high school football teams, it was common for the boosters of such public high school powerhouses as Massilon and Steubenville, to recruit players by offering the father of a promising player, a better paying factory job than the one he now held, if he would move into their territory. That system did not collapse until the area turned into a rust belt, and the unskilled factory jobs disappeared. In Indiana, similar arrangements to a lesser extent, occurred with high school basketball teams.
Tom
The tactics aren't new -- I know as recently as 15 and 20 years ago in Texas you could tell which towns had big oil drilling businesses by seeing how many "transfers" who were in 8th, 9th or 10th grades were showing up on the football team because their daddies just got a new high-paying oil company job in town (the oil price plunge of the late 1980s took a lot of steam out of the "pay-dad-for-play" industry). But the age levels at which this crap is being done keeps slipping lower and lower.
Instead of recruiting 14- through 18-year-olds, which is bad enough, now we're talking about recruiting pre-teens and adults who have set up a national ranking system for 12-and-under baseball teams. And without residency rules, you can have parents of "elite" 11- and 12-year-olds pulling their kids out of Little League baseball because it forces their sons to play in tournaments with the other less-talented "riff-raff" in the area.
If you were playing LL baseball when you were 12 years old, did you even think that someone would be ranking your team in comparison with some other team from Florida, California or Missouri? Does there really need to be the equivalent of an AP college football poll for fifth and sixth grade baseball teams?
The concept of determining "elite" baseball players who will compete on their own select teams from the age of as young as 9-years-old and up smacks a lot of the system people in the U.S. used to decry in the Soviet Union and Eastern Block nations, where the top althletes would be "selected" at a ridiculously young age and then prepped to be a superstar in that sport. Granted, there isn't the coersion factor here there was in the Soviet Union, but its moving baseball closer and closer to being like tennis or gymnastics, where pushy parents send their pre-teen kids off to high-priced camps or instructors so they can be programmed for superstardom (and a nice cash dividend for the parents if it works out).
The Danny Almonte situation may make Little League Baseball and the other youth leagues take a closer look at birth certificates next year, but there are other problems out there -- mainly the recruiting ones -- that are going to increase as time goes on.
NYC has had some great baseball players come out of the sandlots . Manny Ramirez, Bobby Bonilla, Joe Torre, The Aspermonte Brothers, Tommy David, Joe Pep back in the 50s and 60s not to mention a few, of course Koufax. Lou Gehrig
"Do you feel that the bottom line was not that a significant fraud was perpetrated in high visability game, but that people made an effort to expose it? So the exposure is a greater evil than the fraud?"
In a sense, yes. Perhaps I'm viewing this in a naive way but I always thought Little League was about kids. What was done by Rolando Paulino and Filipe Almonte was dispicable. and they belong in jail. That having been said, what about the coaches & parents that that spent tens of thousands of dollars to expose the fraud perpetrated by the Rolando Paulino Allstars? What message does that convey tot he children. "If you can't beat them on the field, dig up some dirt on them?" Is winning so important that 10s of thousands of dollars are spent to prove that someone cheated?
Wow ... VERY VALID POINT! Hadn't thought much about that but then again, I'm not a "sports" type. What this means is that while the guys is out in the "big screen room" sucking down beers and chips, I'm out entertaining the wimmens. Third down and nobody left out? I think not. :)
That all said, it is amusing how the media is wallowing in their own filth to such a degree, politicians can gain higher approval ratings for their conduct. And after all, investing in a media outcome is the best bang for the buck there is. Never considered this angle but you're absolutely right ... and to think, Little League USED TO BE "just a game" ... that's what it is to the kids still at least.
Little League is a very serious proposition, which I personally dislike, but that's the way it is. Teams from many countries compete in the Little League World Series.
You need to keep in mind that baseball is a GAME. Winning or losing depends on RULES. A breeze moving a ball an inch or two one way or another may make the difference between a game winning homer or the last out. In a logical world this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense but it is the heart of the GAME.
Maybe the parents who doubted Almonte had base motives, but they didn't simply "dig up dirt." They weren't looking to see if Almonte was boffing a 12-year old girlfriend or smoked a joint. They were looking to see that an overage boy was attempting to compete against younger less physically developed children to steal games.
I have young children (9 and 11) who are actively asking questions about right and wrong in a world filled with moral relativism. I find it far easier to explain to them that the angry parents were untrusting and maybe motivated by spite (not a good thing) but that they took legal means to find out their children were cheated (and they were right) then to affirm the far more fashionable idea that it;s OK to cheat so long as you don't get caught.
They weren't looking to see if Almonte was boffing a 12-year old girlfriend or smoked a joint.
Of course not. Those are things that middle-aged politician do!
I don't disagree with your thoughts about the 'game'. And I certainly object to the fraud perpetrated by the adults in this case. I just don't know if spending 10s of thousands of dollars to prove that an over-age boy was playing a kids' game. To me it's very closely akin to the parent who beats up the coach for cutting his sons' playing time or shooting the umpire who makes a bad call (we've seen cases of both).
I also don't disagree with you when you say your children are asking questions of right and wrong. I still remember what my grandfather wrote in my elementary school autograph book, "Character, above all." I think that if each of us look back we can remember a time when we told our 7 year old that they should say they were 6 so that they could get into a movie for half-price (or onto the subway for free). When viewed in that context, Filipe Almonte did nothing more than what other parents have done - tell their child to lie about their age. My problem with this whole thing is that the adults are so intent on winning - the hell with the kids..... I still say Mr. Paulino and Mr. Almonte & his wife were guilty of abusing Danny by keeping him out of school and making him an illegal alien. Foster care for Danny - Jail for the parents & the coach - justice for all.
BTW: I don't think enough has been said about the politicians (on both sides) who tripped all over themselves to honor these kids and now that the scandal is widening, they are nowhere to be found - Especially the Bronx (shameful) Boro president.
I'm not sure making Danny a constructive orphan is an appropriate punishment for him, despite what his parents might deserve. In the long term, I'm not too worried about him--every major league team is going to be keeping up on his latest address. Was it Barnum who didn't "care what you said about me so long as you spelled my name right"?
You might enjoy this take on the subject from across The Pond in this Times of London piece.
I especially liked their explaining to the British what a "perfect game" is--"the cricket equivalent of bowling out every batsman for a duck."
I couldn't have explained it any more clearly myself.
I don't know. It's more like beating up the other side's coach for bribing the umpire.
Point well taken Dude. My point was that these kids do not come from very affluent surroundings and many are immigrants, and someone has to win. It would have been nice for a New York team composed of those kids winning over more established programs. Believe me, it took a lot on my part to root for them over our California team. But I see where you're coming from, and no argument there. I wonder if subwaysurf is reading these posts to see that colleagues can disagree without being disagreeable. Have a great Labor Day.
But their team won on a cheat and a fraud. Nice message.
That was racist of upper middle class teams spending that much money to investigate. Remember back in 1992 when the Phillipines won the Little League World Series, and they forfitted the championship to long Beach Calif, because of a over age player. It seems that this happens I hate to say when a team is made up of former Spanish Colonies I am trying to say the right thing. It is there culture to cheat. I am not prejudiced against them. My Wife is Filipina, my nephew is married to a Lady from Spain, and my niece was engaged to a South American. It is just their way
That was racist of upper middle class teams spending that much money to investigate. [ ... ] I hate to say when a team is made up of former Spanish Colonies I am trying to say the right thing. It is there culture to cheat. [ ... ] It is just their way.
This doesn't really follow. If it is "their culture" to cheat, then why would the Latin American Little League have banned Rolando Paulino from participation several years ago, after one of his teams from the Dominican Republic went to Puerto Rico several years ago with six (I think they said) overage players?
Plus the government of the Dominican Republic doesn't seem inclined to wink at this practice either.
Money, or lack of it
I have a (semi-serious) solution to this problem with overage Little Leaguers - medical technology!
A few years ago, I read about the problem that Paris and other French cities were having with pickpocket gangs made up of Gypsy children. The police and courts were having a difficult time deciding whether to treat arrestees as juveniles or adults, as reliable birth records were unavailable. Then someone hit upon the idea of having the childrens' wrists X-rayed. Wrist bones supposedly fuse at a very predictable rate and therefore the extent of fusion is a good predictor of age. Sort of like rings on a tree.
Disclaimer: this is just something I read, I can't vouch for the accuracy of the wrist-fusion theory.
". If it is "their culture" to cheat, then why would the Latin American Little League have banned Rolando Paulino from participation several years ago, after one of his teams from the Dominican Republic went to Puerto Rico several years ago with six (I think they said) overage players?
Maybe because he committed a greater sin. He got caught!
>>Are we going to find out that the family is in the US illegally? <<
I hate to break this to you Fred but the Visas for both Danny and his father had expired a short while back.
Well my disappointment is now complete. Now what happens to Danny? He is the one who concerns me, and I'm afraid he can be hurt by all this because of the ignorance and stupidity of adults.
>>> Now what happens to Danny? <<<
He gets a tryout with the bigs two years earlier.
Tom
A 77 mph fastball on a 12-year-old is great. A 77 mph one on a 14-year-old is still very good, but by age 14 there are some phenom kids out there who can bring it over 80. Danny needs to work on his change up and slider before he turns 16...
In 1963 I had a player named Phil Meyer who was once clocked that season at 84MPH. True the machine used was not the best but the young man was such a phenom that someone wanted to see just how fast he threw. He averaged two-and-a-half strikeouts an inning and went 11-0. He also hit 610. He led the league in every hitting and pitching catetgory except home runs and there he was a close second. Yes, there are times a young man can be a phenom and that is why I refused to believe Danny was a 14=year old. But his parents should be jailed and deported for their crookedness and stupidity. It just pisses me off what they perpetrated, and though $10,000 is a lot of money to spend to prove a cheat took place, it is worth it in my opinion if a fraud was committed. We can't keep looking the other way when Clintonian tactics are being used in society.
I agree that while I wouldn't have spent $10,000 to prove a point, if I had a kid who was 11 years old in 2000 and knew that Danny Almonte was going to be back pitching -- illegally, as it turns out -- against my kid next year unless I did something about it, I might try to get a group of like-minded parents to scrape together $100-$200 bucks apeice for some sort of probe, with the league throwing in some of their own money. Given those all-star teams usually have about 14 players, that would be $3,000-$4,000 for some sort of probe.
BTW -- I wonder why nobody has gotten in contact with the SI Little League's $10,000 gumshoe yet? He's probably as embarassed as anyone about the truth coming out, since it doesn't figure to look very good in his resume.
The Gumshoe was probably one of the parents or relatives
>> Now I find out the kid hasn't been enrolled in school for a year >>and a half.
That's OK he did not go to school in the D.R either.
I'd really have to disagree with one statement. This young man has had quite an education. He's learned:
The end justifies the means.
It's okay to lie.
It's okay to cheat.
Heros are winners at sports and not the average 'Joe' that supports his family.
This poor young man has seen his parents lie, forge official documents and remain in this country illegally. His coach is a real sleaze-ball who's done this sort of thing before. If this is not child abuse - there is no such thing. Filipe Almonte and Raulino Paulino should be in ajoining cells at rikers tonight.
>>> He's learned:
The end justifies the means.
It's okay to lie.
It's okay to cheat. <<<
It looks like he has found the key to getting ahead in America. :-)
Tom
He's also found out a 12 year old with a 77 mile per hour fastball is exceptional but a 14 year old - not so much. No matter. Considering the adults in his life, his future is bright.
Heh. You just KNOW he's on a political career path.
Dude: Right on. Couldn't have said it better if I tried. I would go one better. After they serve time at Rikers deport those two rotten excuse for parents, and put Danny into a home where he will be taught decent values of hard work and fair play.
His mom is already back in the DR
I sent an e-mail to CNNSI nominating Danny Almonte for "sportsman of the year." Though an immigrant, and an illegal one at that, he epitomizes what American, and American sports, now stands for:
"When the one great scorer comes to mark against your name, it matters neither who won or lost nor how you played the game. It matters how much you got paid, and how much you got laid."
The Paulino Little League is from a city whose spending on parks and recreation is half the national average, but where George Steinbrenner and Fred Wilpon are about to make off with $1 billion in public money. Danny was just trying to get over, just life the other "winners" in the Vampire State. I'll think about Danny while swallowing a half pound of dust and stepping around the broken glass while refereeing my little girls' soccer games this fall.
Well said. But I'm still saddened to see the adult sports' cynicism filter to down to the youth level. Today's youth are tomorrow's adults, and what principles will they pass on to their children?
There is Right and there is wrong.
From about age 7, children ususally know the difference.
What dread did the willing and unwilling conspiritors go through when the cat was peeking out of the Bag?
What other soiled laundry will float up for public scrutiny?
Visas, green cards, school registration, funding for the playing field? I guess we know why his Mom was having difficulty making some games. I say, guess.
When some thing seems to good to be true.....
Caveat enchilada...beware of the whole enchilada
avid
You all have probably seen the car card that says
Keep a Firm Grip on Your Valuables
(Please Hold Your Child's Hand on the Subway Platform)
This advice is unbelievably dangerous...What good will come of keeping your child's hand on the subway platform? The subway platform is often spit on, defecated on, and urinated on... Placing your child's hand in all this harmful filth is sure to expose them to serious illness as young children are quick to put their hands in their mouth...
what did the mta have in mind when they issued this advice??
I was thinking more of a bad message as "Keep a firm grip on your valuables"...My mind is in the gutter, bye bye!
(Please Hold Your Child's Hand on the Subway Platform)
Hahahaha ... Clearly the study group that signed off on that one had just returned from one of those long Friday liquid lunches. :)
... and I believe you can be arrested for keeping a firm grip on your "valuables" out in public too ... I recall Rudy's heatwave advice (tm) - "Take off all the clothing you can ... err ... legally."
Someone should send a picture of that sign to Jay leno for Headlines...LOL!!!!
Nah, Dave Letterman's right up the street. He could get a half hour out of that one. :)
>>> Keep a Firm Grip on Your Valuables <<<
This flies in the face of modern medical advice for men to wear boxer shorts rather than briefs to avoid sterility from higher temperatures during sperm production. :-)
Tom
I thought of this proposal some time ago:
The introduction of skip stop service on the WMATA Red line at rush hours if not middays. Trains would serve stops in the following fashion:
A TRAINS
Shady Grove*
Rockville
White Flint
Grosvenor*
Bethesda
Tenleytown
Van Ness*
Woodley Park
Dupont Circle*
Farragut North*
Metro Center*
Gallery Place*
Judicuary Square*
Union Station*
Brookland
Fort Totten*
Silver Spring*
Forset Glen
Glenmont*
B TRAINS
Shady Grove*
Twinbrook
Grosvenor*
Medical Center
Friendship Heights
Van Ness*
Cleveland Park
Dupont Circle*
Farragut North*
Metro Center*
Gallery Place*
Judicuary Square*
Union Station*
Rhode Island Avenue
Fort Totten*
Takoma
Silver Spring*
Wheaton
Glenmont*
* indicates ALL STOP station.
The only change I would consider is making White Flint all stop and Grosvenor an A stop.
What do you all think?
Yea good when ever they get all their cars
OR this: have a BROWN line Short line from Grosvenor to Silver Spring.
On one end:
RED line all stops from Shady Grove to Grosvenor then NON STOP until Dupont Circle with the exception of VAN NESS-UDC (Red and Brown stop there).
On the other end:
RED line all stops from Wheaton to Silver Spring then NON STOP until Union Station with the exception of FORT TOTTEN (Red and Brown stop there).
wayne
And how does one maintain a 3 minute interval with the express red line trains?
I was in NYC on Saturday, planning on railfanning with Subtalker faxman. However, long story short, I ended up arriving in LGA at 12:00 instead of 8:00, so I missed meeting up with him. Anyway, I only had 4 hours now to railfan, so I ended up riding only in Manhattan and Queens. I rode the following segments (in order, Italicized means I havn't ridden that section before):
7 - 74th & Bway to Queensboro Plaza
N - to 59th and Lex
4 - to Grand Central
S - to Times Sq, I explored around the shuttle areas at both ends
1 - to 79th St, ate at Ray's Pizza, somewhere near Columbus Ave, I think. About NYC pizza, I'll probably get flamed, but NYC pizza isn't all that. It's good, but nothing to write home about. Sure the slices are huge, but quantity doesn't make up for quality. I thought the crust was good, however. Sao Paulo, Brazil pizza is way better.
C - 81st to 125th
A to 168th
1 - to Columbus Circle, got to see 137th St yard, and 91th St station. The 168th St IRT station is cool. I like the pre-extension ends to the station, very impressive IRT work. That station reminded me of a London Subsurface station like Baker St.
A - to 14th st
L - to 6th Ave, what happened to the slants on this line? I think I rode an R40M.
4 - to Brooklyn Bridge, while riding, I decided to look out the back railfan window of the Redbird I was on, that was a cool experience watching the columns go by and other trains passing with sparks going everywhere. Saw Worth St station. Last time I was there, track workers were working in that area and the lights lit up Worth St nicely. I saw two flouresent lights on the Northbound platform at Worth, what's up with that?
6 - to 51st St. I explored Chambers, saw the abandoned platforms, that's a dirty-ass station. I got my first ride on a R142. The ride is butta smooth. They have the same AC whine as our new MARTA cars. I know the MARTA cars and the 142 share a lot of the same technology. It's also a good looking car, nice lighting and colors. Looking at photo previously, I thought the outside was too bare, but in person it looks good. The front ends are great looking. I didn't like the male voice with his foppish, cheery voice, I want to feel lke I'm on a subway, not a game show. The female voice should do all the annoucements. I went to 51st St to go back to Queens on an E/F, but all service ws going thru 63rd that weekend. OK, and fess up one of y'all, I saw someone at 51st taking pictures of the R142 with his FunSaver camera.
6 - to Grand Central
7 - to 5 Ave, (yeah, I could have went to Queens this way, but I wanted to go thru 63rd) the T/O had his cab open, and I saw a digital speedometer above the T/O, when did the Flushing cars get those?
E - to Jackson Heights, the E was running on this line, after 57th St, you can tell this is new track, because the ride is way smoother.
E - to Jackson Heights, the E was running on this line, after 57th St, you can tell this is new track, because the ride is way smoother.
Are you sure it was the E track? Since you railfanned on SATURDAY, the Queens Blvd. line trains (E,F,R) were ALL running through the 63rd St. Tunnel this weekend and last weekend.
They've been making finalizations for the opening of the tunnel sometime soon, until they finally fix the signals on the 53rd St. and 60 St. tunnels, or so the MTA website had mentioned.
The E during the normal run doesn't go to 57 St. Look on the map for the E route.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I'm quite sure I was on an E train, all E's, F's and R's were diverted thru the 63rd St tunnel. And I know the E doesn't normally go to 57th, that's why I went to 51st on the 6 to beging with.
Holy Pez!
All THAT in 4 hours time!??!
WoW.
That does sound like a lot doesn't it? I come from the school of no patience, so I don't waste my time in any single place.
L - to 6th Ave, what happened to the slants on this line? I think I rode an R40M. There are still Slants on the "L" - just fewer of them. They had 68 slants at one time, now they only have 48. These are #4398-4449.
wayne
I really wanted to go on a slant. Looking at the photos, they look really ugly, but I remember seeing a pair at Coney Island from a distance, and they didn't look that bad. I wanted a close up look to make sure.
1 - to 79th St, ate at Ray's Pizza, somewhere near Columbus Ave, I think.
I believe the one you are talking about is the Ray's at 82nd and Amsterdam.
Yup, that's it.
Ray's is not the best New York City has to offer.
Ray's is to Pizza, as Popcorn is to BBQ.
This series just started this weekend. The graphics of the GG1 and of The Broadway Limited are done beautifully. It's produced by Harry Webber. If you are in marketing, you know who he is.
This who-done-it and why is at
http://www.thebroadwayltd.com
Virginia Division - BMT
I forget. Does Amtrak use Track 15, or is it exclusively LIRR? How about PRR in 1949?
It's one of the shared tracks.
Thanks.
I've now had at least two reports of a young guy, possibly working for Transit, who has been asking around for me (once at Stillwell, once from someone on the C line). This person claims to know me from a website, so I figure it must be someone from either here or the Straphangers. Anyone want to admit to it?
I looked for ye' at Van Cortlandt once or twice
last Spring .... 'twas me THEN but ISN'T me now.
Hey guys, can you please clarify for me:
1. When did the Standards stop running in regular service? I was always under the impression that they were withdrawn in '65, but I have seen photos of them on the "JJ" and "LL" lines dated post '65. When did the last Standard run, and on what line(S)??
2. And the Triplex cars!! Where and when did they end their careers?? Tony
I can't speak for the D-Types, I will leave that to Steve B., their champion and chief mourner; but I CAN give you August 4, 1969 as the last day that a revenue BMT Standard made its way up and down the "M" line. It was a Monday that year, extremely hot (96 degrees) and my Dad, my friend Larry and I were doing one of our all-day subway rides that day. We were in Eastern Division earlier in the day and missed the event; heck, we weren't even aware of it.
wayne
I can't speak for the D-Types, I will leave that to Steve B., their champion and chief mourner; but I CAN give you August 4, 1969 as the last day that a revenue BMT Standard made its way up and down the "M" line.
And they still had many years of useful life left in them. Really sad.
On the other hand, the fact that the Standards were gone before the early 1970's means that none of them were defaced by graffiti. I suppose that's good in a way.
The Triplexes were slaughtered. Plain and simple. Unforgiveable. Inexcusable. Putting the R-16s out of their misery was one thing. Pulling the Triplexes when they were still running beautifully is the other extreme.
The August 1969 date mentioned by Wayne is one I've heard cited before as time of the BMT Standards' last run. However, the last UNREBUILT Standards and the D-Types were withdrawn circa June 1965, after the R32/R32A invasion. Back then, I was riding the Canarsie line (before it was known as the LL) daily to high school and can recall the absence of unrebuilt Standards when school resumed in the fall of '65. No more 2300s or 2800s (except possibly 2899) were left by then.
I'm not sure of the exact date of the D Type's, but June 1965 is close enough. Some were being scrapped by then.
They finished up on the #3, or "T", West End.
The last day of service for the Triplexes was July 23, 1965 - the very same day we left the city for home while on vacation. I still can't believe I didn't see any of them because we rode on the BMT Southern Division during both of our days there. In fact, we even rode on the West End, but it was during midday and our TT train was an R-32 consist.
If it's of any comfort, the first weekday of the "revived BMT" with Q/W service, was July 23rd, 2001.
--Mark
July 23 is still a black armband day in my book.
Some unrebuilt Southern division standards were pulled from the scrap line in 1966 and sent to the Eastern division to run for another 6 months. 48 R16's were sent to the GG because the R1's were on deferred maintenance and falling apart, and the R38's weren't quite arriving in time.
I heard the number of R-16s loaned to Jamaica Yard was 32. They had GG signs spliced into their roller curtains.
Didn't they all have A to GG and 10 thru 16 signs from day 1 ?
Don't know about that. At least some of them had A signs because fifty R-16s did run on the A during the late 50s.
Don't forget, the photos might be fan trips.
The preserved sets of Standards (2390-2391-2392) and D-Types (6019 A-B-C, 6095 A-B-C and 6112 A-B-C) ran a number of fan trips in the mid- to late 1970s and made regular appearances on the weekend Nostalgia Special trains to Rockaway Park or Coney Island. By this time, all of these cars had been retired from regular service.
For the record, one Triplex unit made a few revenue runs on the Culver Shuttle one day in 1974 or 1975.
When exactly will the V run (rush only, weekends) and what again is the deal with the G when is it to Church and Continental?
One of the dispatchers said they will try to turn three lines at Continental at the same time but I can't believe that would be all day.
Will the E/F mix change in favor of the E with the new pick?
The books are supposedly floating around already but I don't have the hook up.
I believe the "V" will be Mon-Fri rush hours and middays, perhaps into the evening up to 9PM or so. I have heard nothing about "G"s to Church; but I have heard of Weekend "G" service to Continental.
ALL OF THIS IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE.
wayne
Doesn't the V train make the G more obsolete
Another candidate for the Darwin award...
Boy, 11, killed by train
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another candidate for the Darwin award...
Boy, 11, killed by train
It's interesting to note that the boy stepped out of the path of one train into another. As the old saying goes, you can hear only one train at a time, and the one you don't hear is the one that hits you.
It's interesting to note that the boy stepped out of the path of one train into another. As the old saying goes, you can hear only one train at a time, and the one you don't hear is the one that hits you.
This was specially stressed in a Train Safety program held in my elementary school in Edison, NJ. We had it every year, except in 7th and 8th grade in Middle School.
Train safety can give you real helpful tips into "Staying on the Safe Track", or better yet, the tips included "Don't trespass, Railroads are private property".
: )
Railfan Pete.
"Staying on the Safe Track"
Cool! I'm guessing they teach you how to read signals and listen for rail sing.
"Rail sing" isn't a reality these days of CWR (for those who go "huh?" I define as "Continuously Welded Rail") ... MAYBE if something's sloppy, you might be able to hear something from the rails, but it's FAR more than likely you won't. If you want Darwin to punch your ticket, by all means, go dancing in the middle of an interstate at rush hour. You actually MIGHT live if you get hit there.
The TRAIN however always wins and Conductor Darwin is always ready to punch your ticket.
I hear "rail sing" on all the tracks I've been on. The most recent was a few months ago while photographing graffiti. I heard the singing and half a minute later, I saw the frieght train come by.
Hmm. The correct procedure to avoid a double-crossing is to lie down flat in the cess, face down, between the two tracks.
I bet you anyone who has ever had to do this to avoid a double crossing will never trespass again. Maybe as part of OLS demonstrations they should make all the kids go through this.
That procedure doesn't help if you didn't know there was a double crossing -- which, admittedly, after all those times when I'd been out walking along the track (duty purposes), I think that if I was caught off guard by one train, I wouldn't have remembered not to immediately cross over to the next track. This is despite having safety training.
But then, if you had safety training, you would not have been walking in the 4' in the first place -- always walk in the cess, even if it is more difficult to walk there.
Lexcie
Glad to hear the trick works in your neck of the woods - out here, you don't usually hear it and certainly in noisier areas like out on Long Island, you should never count on hearing the rails before a train rounds a curve and is in your face. The safest way is to not be there at all since some tracks are actually down tight and won't make noise.
You can hear the catenary start to sing as a light rail train approaches the station here in Denver. You've got to be careful; those LRVs are very, very quiet. They can sneak up on you.
Want to hear something funny? There's a "no fishing from bridge" sign on Royal Gorge Bridge, which happens to be 1050 feet above the Colorado River. You never know.... There's also a sign which marks the spot where those fellows bungee jumped off the bridge on That's Incrdible.
I'm sure the sign is there for a reason. Only problem is Conductor Darwin's working the Lake Shore today. :)
CRW is MORE likley to sing than jointed as the vibrations have no "gaps" to jump. On the NJT Atlantic City line the rails sing at least 15-30 seconds in advance of and in rear of a train.
Well, I would only offer "DON'T COUNT ON IT" ... as an example, back when Gonerail ruled the Selkirk yards and I'd be hanging out with my buddies down there, if I had a nickel for every time the hairs on my neck would stand on end as a boxcar blew past me on the next track without ANY warning at all ... you wouldn't even hear it coming until the rush of air as it was ON YOU told you a car had just passed within inches of you.
Out where I am, it's VERY VERY quiet (measured A weighted noise levels of 20 dB) and here, you can hear the motors of a loco from 5 miles away. No joke. In a noisier environment, you won't hear doowahdiddydoo until you've been hit. But the general "listen for the rails singing" is genuinely a bad bit of general advice. In many places, it might work. In many others, you won't hear what killed you. Better to be VERY careful and don't venture where you can't see for a good long distance what's coming. If anything obstructs your view, stay put.
No offense, but I've come close to being hit several times and I don't take it lightly. The most dangerous proposition is a stopped train which prevents you from seeing or hearing the other one on the adjacent track coming up full throttle from behind it. I cringe every time I see people getting off a train and crossing the track and I've seen footage of commuters doing this and being HIT ...
...hairs on my neck would stand on end as a boxcar blew past me on the next track without ANY warning at all ...
Very true. A single boxcar being loose humped will not make the rail sing. In all likelyhood, a local -- one engine and a few boxcars -- going at 25mph probably wouldn't make the rail sing either. Listening to rail sound works in high-speed NJtransit commuter territory, but not on quaint locals down in Maine.
...Better to be VERY careful and don't venture where you can't see for a good long distance what's coming.
Anyway you are supposed to walk at least 18' in front of equipment when crossing tracks, because (a) the equipment could suddenly jerk, especially in yard operations, and (b) the engineer is high up and can't see you for the cone of the Acela (or substitute nose of the Genesis as appropriate) unless you are a fair distance in front of the cab. If equipment is obstructing view, then you have to be even more careful.
...I've seen footage of commuters doing this and being HIT ...
Do they still play that Metra video on Operation Lifesaver?
Lexcie
...I've seen footage of commuters doing this and being HIT ...
Do they still play that Metra video on Operation Lifesaver?
Dunno, but you can download the "Traingirl" video at www.crimelife.com (just ignore all the other garbage on the site).
Nah, I'll pass ... seen it enough. But anyone who hasn't SHOULD see it, might make you think twice about how much of a hurry you're in to cross the tracks and get to the parking lot.
>>> but you can download the "Traingirl" video at www.crimelife.com <<<
But you are going to be disappointed if you think this video is about an outlaw biker club. :-)
Tom
Yep ... they still have the woman going 100 feet up in the air after being hit by the train on the other track while she was crossing it ahead of the stopped train. Still has its attention-getting qualities. Nothing like fresh kilt young female meat in the air to get a point across. Sad it requires that to GET the point across tho'.
And yes, since Selkirk is a classification yard, there's all sorts of surprises moving all around you. When you're tanking up a loco, you don't hear the one coming on the adjacent track until it's on you, same for the loose cars being consisted all around.
When out on the "real railroad" and you have to walk your train, first thing you do is get on the radio and ask the tower what's on the adjacent and WHERE. :)
When out on the "real railroad" and you have to walk your train,
"Walk your train"? I think I have had a visual of this out west at Barstow Classification Yard. What is it exactly?
What does "rail sing" mean?
: )
Railfan Pete.
It's a tinging sound that comes off the tracks when a train is coming. The train causes the rails to vibrate. On subways, sometimes the third rail has a "twang" sound to it when a train is approaching. It can get real loud when the third rail switches sides and the shoe first hits the rail.
It's a tinging sound that comes off the tracks when a train is coming.
Aha. These can be well found on all parts of the NEC, especially with catenary wiring. I hear them all the time. The NEC is probably the best place in the NE part of the U.S. with "rail sings".
34 St. Penn Station - 8th Av. Subway has twanging sounds on the 3rd rail. I hear them all the time on the two (local and express) rails heading UPTOWN. I hear more on the express rail than the local.
Thanks. : )
Railfan Pete.
My favorite spot for "Rail Singing" is 59th Street/Lex uptown IRT express.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, Rob took care of the "singing," so the "walk the train" bit simply means that when you are about to take out a train, you apply brakes, check your hoses between cars and make sure the brakes are clasped. You do this to ensure that you don't have fouled hoses that would cause the rear of the train to push you when you need to stop. You make sure FRED is alive and well on the rear and talking to you radio. Last chance to spot brake or wheel defects before you depart. Sorta like what a prudent driver would do checking tires and lights on a walkaround of a car, except trains are longer. :)
The TRAIN however always wins and Conductor Darwin is always ready to punch your ticket.
Only if you don't have any offspring.
Heh. A tainted gene pool tends to be a self-solving problem even over multiple generations. Conductor Darwin has no plans to be retiring soon. :)
A girl on her bike did it on the MBTA once at an RR crossing. The second train, hidden from the first, sounded its horn, and if she had paid close attention and known about the Doppler effect she might have realized a second train was approaching. She thought the danger was over. She's dead because of it.
The more I read about this, the more I am thinking one day this might happen to me even if I am doing something perfectly legit on RR property. I have been caught off-guard by a train passing another in the same direction while I had been standing by the trackside. The fact is, you can't see another train if one train is obscuring the view, even if you were standing on a station platform.
Lexcie
That's correct - but you're safe so long as you respect the platform boundaries, don't violate lowered crossing gates, obey posted rules and use some common sense.
Define Darwin award?
Quoting from www.darwinawards.com, the "Darwin Awards celebrate the theory of evolution by commemorating the remains of those who improved our gene pool by removing themselves from it in really stupid ways."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's what I thought it was.
It's just not particulary funny in this case.
I actually find it extremely amusing -- that is exactly what the boy deserved. If I got hit because I was walking on the RoW, I would consider myself a Darwin Award winner. My mother might argue otherwise, but that's only because she doesn't want to admit how crappy her genes really were.
No sympathies for the boy or his family; all sympathies to both of the engineers.
I've been in a cab (not operating) when it hit a stag and I felt pretty crappy afterwards. I couldn't imagine what it feels like to hit a PERSON and being the OPERATOR of the train... although, NJT engineers have probably seen enough of it to be only slightly shaken.
...although, NJT engineers have probably seen enough of it to be only slightly shaken.
Somehow I doubt it. My older son hit a pedestrian with his car about a year and a half ago; the inebriated young woman, dressed all in black, stepped out from behind a double-parked truck (in the other lane) on an unlit street directly into my son's path at 3 AM. Fortuntately, he was only driving about 20 MPH at the time because he was approaching a stop sign. She landed on his hood but survived - multiple broken bones, concussion, etc. He STILL won't drive at night unless it's a drastic emergency.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"NJT engineers have probably seen enough of it to be only slightly shaken."
I don't know about NJT, but Metra trains have grade crossing accidents pretty frequently, and there's an engineer on my line who blows the horn long and loud at each and every grade crossing, however minor, like the Devil himself were chasing him. I think he's STILL shaken up from some past grade crossing incident.
The problem is that in most creatures with brains, the avoidance of danger is NOT a genetic trait.
Actually, that is not entirely true. It has been shown that a lack of sense of responsibility is indeed a genetic trait. Here is what I mean: a macho dad has a macho son, even if the son had been separated at or near birth from the dad. Macho and bold guys are more likely to trespass (thinking they can always avoid the train in time) and are more likely to play chicken with the train. This is a simple argument but it can be backed up with sophesticated research data if you want to go research it.
According to the Asbury Park Press, the family of the deceased has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against New Jersey Transit, alleging that NJT knew that people fished from the bridge and did nothing to prevent them from entering on the bridge. (Apparently the NO TRESPASSING signs, in both English and Spanish, aren't enough... in fact, the presence of the sign in Spanish is being cited as evidence that NJT knew "poor people" were out there on a regular basis.) At a news conference yesterday, a person speaking on behalf of the family suggested that NJT should have constructed walkways on both sides of the bridge so that people could safely fish from it, and that their failure to do so was the cause of the young boy's death.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or perhaps NJT should have taken a far more proactive stance. Position armed guards with orders to shoot to kill trespassers. Sheesh.
Please don't let it come to be revealed that
this Darwinite didn't know how to read (a sign!)..
Please tell me you're joking.
I knew people were stupid, but that's a gaffe of Biblical proportions.
If you ever wondered why engineers SIT on a horn as they approach the white "W" signs, here's yet another example. Kid gets hit, engineer gets the third degree, railroad gets sued, police and federal inspectors edmand paperwork and here's the outcome. Happens all the time.
It's Ridley Pearson's latest novel about a railroad saboteur seekiing revenge on a rail company after his wife and kids are killed at a railroad crossing.
I'm halfway through it and can't put it down...I highly recommend it!!
I'm halfway through it and can't put it down...
Are you sure you didn't spill some glue? :-)
You must be a good one-handed typist... :-):-)
(Sorry, it's Monday morning, the sun is shining, I've got a big dumb dog curled up at my feet, and the caffeine is starting to kick in...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sept. 3, 1963, R33 9306 in its spiffy Bluebird paint rode a flatbed trailer through the streets in New York's Labor Day parade:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r3336wf/r33-9306.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r3336wf/r33-9306a.jpg
[First my commitment to my mother, who made this trip possible, and my brother came along with us, too.]
We were trying to get to Queens via the Flushing train because the Queens Blvd. train would not make it on time, especially because of the rerouting.
We arrive at the 34 St. - Penn Station 2 and 3 Express platforms. There were the usual Ticker signs with color which read: "P l e a s e S t a n d B a c k F r o m t h e S t a t i o n P l a t f o r m f o r y o u r S a f e t y." And some other messages. They are found on both #1 and #9 platforms and the center island platform for the express tracks.
We were greeted by a #1 train UPTOWN local trundling in from New Lots. The train served passengers, and ready for its trip to 42nd St. - Times Square. After a few minutes, (which seemed like 20 minutes), we saw a #1 train DOWNTOWN and UPTOWN in both ways local.
URGENT NOTE: There was a piece of torn spiral notebook paper on on of the I-beams which "messily" said in black ink: "ALL UPTOWN TRAINS ARE ON LOCAL TRACK".
Then, right after the #1 trains left, I saw a #3 train rolling down the Downtown Express track at Penn Sta. Of course, as one may know, 3 trains TERMINATE at 42nd St. Times Square for passenger service. The train was empty when it came in.
When it fully was in the platform and it stopped, the Motorman applied the Emergency Brake and just stood there for about 5-6 minutes. Since the #2 UPTOWN train arrived, (we boarded Redbird car #9170 with good A/C!), I didn't wait to see the fate of that #3 train.
On our return trip!
Back on the Flushing line to 42nd St. Times Square, I noticed ANOTHER unusual EXPERIENCE. After encountering a couple of #1 trains on the UPTOWN local track at 42nd St., I finally recalled to myself that the #1 train was scheduled TOO OFTEN, compared to the #2 and #3 lines.
While waiting for a DOWNTOWN train to 34 St., a #3 train pulls up on the DOWNTOWN express platform full of passengers.
The T/A announces it as "Last stop" and with some special announcements over the station's P/A about the advisories info. After the doors opened and the EMERGENCY BRAKE pulled, the passengers exited and a T/O guided the passengers that this train "wasn't going anywhere".
Then the lights flickered in quick, rapid 1/2 second increments, about 4 times. This also happened on an N train which was to terminate at 42nd St. Times Square long weekends ago, except in different variations.
1) Can anyone tell me why the lights flicker in terminuses like this?
I also noticed that the conductor on board this train was sticking his arm out of the window as the train was pulling in.
2) Does anyone have any insights regarding this?
After the #3 train discharged all its passengers, the doors closed and the motors shut off. Then around 5 minutes later, it released its air brake and headed towards PENN STATION!
3) Does ANYONE have any insights regarding this?
The rest of our trip was normal. We went to Penn Station to catch our train back to NJ.
It was a good experience! Answers and responses would be greatly appreicated! (Sorry for a long post)
: )
Railfan Pete.
I don't think those are really emergency brakes.
Lights flicker is to scare off any remaining passengers still on the train.
I don't think those are really emergency brakes.
Yes they are. Emergency brakes are also used to give power to keep the train still even if the Motorman has let go of the regular brake.
Lights flicker is to scare off any remaining passengers still on the train.
I appreciate your satire but I don't think so. "Scare" was probably the oversimplicated word.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I appreciate your satire but I don't think so. "Scare" was probably the oversimplicated word.
Have you been watching too many Presidential speeches?
I am not really a buff er rail historian but most of you guys are I thought you knew all this stuff since you know stuff like car number 2311 was reused twice and the dates of their major over haul.
1) lights on and off because someone hit the main lighting switch to give a hint to the passengers.
2) The conductor really should point to the board when the train stops. There are boards in staions near the C/O position that let the c/o know the train is properly bearthed in the station. If it was a light train (no passeengers) it is really not as important as you will not be opening doors.
3) I am in the IND but I would bet the train went south to relay to the NB track at 42st. So southbound you get rid of the customers at 42, run light to 34th dump the train, change ends (if you do not have a switchman) or even change crews then go to 42 on the uptown side.
Before anyone asks they do not do this on 34th and 6th because the next cross over point is W4th st and it would likely require more crews and more trains to do. If southbound service ended at 42nd they could make the relay the same way as on the 3 but people would have to take 3 train to go from Stillwell to the Bedford.
>"After the doors opened and the EMERGENCY BRAKE pulled"
He applied the emergency brake using the deadman (the train can recharge) you pull the EBV you create a leak of air, put yourself closr to deafness and get this hissing sound until you reset the cord.
>"I finally recalled to myself that the #1 train was scheduled TOO >OFTEN, compared to the #2 and #3 lines"
No way, the 1 is hopping uptown and gets tons of action at 59th st and 96th and a few other points in up to around 168th.
I was going to post corrections, but you caught on! Thanks for the info.
: )
Railfan Pete.
URGENT NOTE: There was a piece of torn spiral notebook paper on on of the I-beams which "messily" said in black ink: "ALL UPTOWN TRAINS ARE ON LOCAL TRACK".
It was supposed to be DOWNTOWN, not UPTOWN.
Then, right after the #1 trains left, I saw a #3 train rolling down the Downtown Express track at Penn Sta. Of course, as one may know, 3 trains TERMINATE at 42nd St. Times Square for passenger service. The train was empty when it came in.
One of the car #'s was #2000.
While waiting for a DOWNTOWN train to 34 St., a #3 train pulls up on the DOWNTOWN express platform full of passengers.
The two middle car #'s were #1913, and #2130.
: )
Railfan Pete.
any one know how many r142/r142as are in service
Amtrak is considering the possibility of restoring the Broadway Limited in NYC->Chicago service. Cutbacks in the Boston section of the Lake Shore would free up viewliners and dining cars that could then be routed to the Broadway. The B'way would take the faster Cleveland route to Chicago and the Pennsylvanian would then be transferred to the B&O route.
(1) Who told you this?
(2) Why are they cutting back on the Boston section of the Lake Shore? I was under the impression that train is always fairly full, although recently I've seen it run with just a few coaches -- maybe two coaches, one viewliner, and two baggage cars. My admittedly one-shot impression is that the two coaches are almost always running at capacity.
(3) I'd love to have the Pennsylvanian run via the B&O. This means I can go to Fostoria for the weekend from here. But, I don't believe you, especially after Skyline Connection fell through -- unless you tell me where you got the information.
Lexcie
Now If they change the name of the Lake Shore Limited to the 21st Century Limited,
Having ridden the Lake Shore several times in recent years, and having experienced its propensity to stay in Albany/Rensselaer for many hours westbound, one might call it the 19th Century Limited.
That is Not being considered. The 3R's gets Viewliners in October, and that is all. They need 42 on any given day out of 49 - thius will make it 45.
The only thing one can look forward to is Amtrak renegotiating the M&E contracts on the Pennsylvanian so that it can be reschedules by 6 hours and run overnight NYP-PGH. It is now a useless train for passengers, and Amtrak is trying to make some of their long-haul trains more suitable for passengers now that Ed Ellis is gone. The M&E business unit has disrupted LD trains so much that it no longer considered profitable considering the damage it has done to ridership.
Check out E-bay 1184908014 for the item. As of last check it is up to $406.99.
Please Note: I am not connected in any way with the seller.
That would likely be from a 1300 BU if it's authentic BMT.
Well - I won it!! - NOW to sneak it past the spouse ;-)
"Well - I won it!! - NOW to sneak it past the spouse ;-) "
Would you tell the spouse how much you sank into this "el" car seat ? If she is supportive of your hobby, that's alright. But if she isn't, prepare for a tongue lashing on what the money spent on the seat would have bought.
Maybe you should hire Ralph Kramden to sneak it past the spouse. He was a legend in sneaking things past Alice !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Several years ago I was at the King of Prussia Trolley show with her - she doesnt know much about trains but she does know that I'm after anything connected to the BMT...Well she saw a BMT entrance globe (the octagonal shaped one with the word SUBWAY down the sides) and positioned herself in such a way that i would not notice it as we walked up and down the aisles. Well - I made a sudden turn and saw it - then after some hesitation she gave in and let me buy it! So I must say she is a good sport!! -- still I don't think i'll tell her the REAL price of the seat - i'll kind of move the decimal one place to the left ;-)
Congratulations on your win! If your wife asks, do what I do, say "It followed me home. Can I keep it?"
When my wife and I were in our courting days, she bought me some nice train/history gifts unbidden, including a great railroad lantern and the four volume "History of Brooklyn & Queens..".etc.
Of course that was before we were married. Now she bristles whenever I note that the backyard is 100' feet wide and a BMT Standard is only 67' long...
Hey, I'd only have to move the kids' swing set a few feet! ;-)
Paul, maybe you can make a deal with the LIRR to store your BMT on one of their many unused tracks, such as the south track at Greenlawn Station. Why not, after all the LIRR can now justify the expense of having raised the platform and never using it.
Heh. I've got 7 acres. I've got the room for a WHOLE train here. :)
Heh. I've got 7 acres. I've got the room for a WHOLE train here. :)
And you don't have a train on your 7 acres because...?
Lack of iron being one (though that's easily found at the bottom of the hill) but I suppose the real reason why I don't have a whole train here is that I can't afford the shipping. And there's a power substation here too ... everything I need, all you add is a train.
Maybe Heypaul can do a telethon ...
We need to round up a train of R-1/9s so Kev can relive the CPW express dash anytime he wants to.:-)
Not on *THIS* hill ... we're talking breaker trips, towns and villages dimming out as the throttle comes to parallel ... but thanks for the thought. Heh. I *do* know of a lovely stretch of doubletrack that goes on for miles around where I am. Do the braid to the rail and drop a rectifier and we can go for a REALLY nice ride. Assuming of course Dougie and Thurston and some of the other shovel-leaners are willing to do a FARKLOAD of track work. :)
Price is up to $455 as of this posting, with the high bid being a SubTalker... also one of the other bidders. (I'm not involved in any way... not my kind of collecting.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I saw that; too pricey for me - I wonder if it's from one of the MS - if it is, that would be a real find! There's also a B division roll sign for sale and Charles Fiori, of course, has dibs on it.
wayne
Say, what is Charles up to these days? We haven't heard from him in eons.
It sure looks like one of the seats we as kids would flip back over after the conductor would flip it over at Metropolitan Ave in one of the 1300 gate cars....wish i could afford it.
I bet Karl B shares the same feeling.
I watched that auction, and was surprised at how high the bidding went!
What about the shipping? Doesn't seem like it will fit in a FedEx box. ;)
I'm picking it up in person tomorrow on the way home from the King of Prussia show. Hope it fits in my trunk ;-)
I know it's too late to mention this now, but take out the bench seat in your car, replace it with you-know-what.
Last friday, I was riding MARTA during rush hour, and at Five Points we sat at the station for five minutes with no explaination. When we finally left, a woman pressed the button and said,
"are we going to be doing this for every stop?"
"no"
"well next time, you can fucking inform us why we are stopped like that"
I can only imgine what would be said over call buttons in NYC.
"My buck fifty bought this armadillo??"
Hmmm, I wonder what they are doing to discourage this. Not so important in WMATA, but if some stupidass person does it on commuter rail or some untripped transit line and the T/O runs a signal...
Lexcie
Does it call the T/O or the conductor? Assuming MARTA isn't an OPTO system (I don't know, haven't ridden it), the call button probably contacts the conductor, since the T/O is supposed to concentrate on the road and the conductor's job is to deal with passengers anyway.
MARTA is OPTO.
On the one hand, the T/O perhaps should have informed the passengers of the reason for delay. On the other hand, the T/O showed professionalism and restraint in not retorting the woman's rudeness.
And further demonstrated restraint by not pushing the blue button in the cab which applies current to the whoopie cushion of the customer pushing the call button.
The SubTalkers who participated in the Chicago trip discovered that the motorman call button is far too easy to push accidentally. Signs near the button ask the rider to answer the motorman's query if the button was pushed accidentally. I rode a Red Line train midweek (before the SubTalk trip - I was in Chicago on a business trip) and the motorman entered every car and asked whether someone in that car had pushed the button. The train lost several minutes and of course encountered crowds on each subsequent platform. I mentioned this incident to Irwin Davis during our SubTalk trip on Sunday and he said that he might have been the motorman. I didn't recognize him at the time, but later realized that in fact it had been chicagomotorman who entered the car and asked about the button.
During last Sunday's fan trip I noticed that the M trains were 8 cars long. Since this is only a shuttle operation, is there some compelling reason to run such long trains? The platforms and trains didn't appear to be that crowded unless something was in the works later in the day. I expected to see 4-car M's and was shocked to see 8-car trains. Any good explanation?
Because the M is not an OPTO line. The M is a senior pick line if they tried OPTO there, there would be a riot.
PS several C/O's won't even open the rear of the train on the shuttles so in that respect it is a short train.
I believe when the R143s come on the line, then they WILL try to OPTO the "M"ary.
The 143's will hit the L first. The order is for 212 cars or there abouts. During rush they run about 13 trains per hour and the running time is around 37 mins with recharging after dumping at terminals a train would be back at its starting place in an hour and a half so you would need 19 train sets to run the line plus a set of spares and maybe two gap trains add that they plan on adding trains to the line to reduce headways with thee new signals they are installing and almost all the cars are accounted for.
Unless there is another order the M will be safe from OPTO baring some union blunder. Actually it's a union blunder that I think is likely.
What kind of union blunder? I don't see how the union can stop OPTO on the M whenever sufficient cars are in the "east". Past practice will be the TA's reasoning. OPTO is on the Franklin shuttle, and the weekend G line already and we'll find out for sure if it will be 24/7 on the G when the new pick books come out in couple of weeks. The union blunder was made by the Willie James regime over the paltry $2.00 additonal per hour OPTO pay. Considering they saved a c/r salary, the TA had a great victory. Off topic: the 25 cents additional per hour the TA pays drivers of articulated buses is an insult and slap in the face to the drivers thanks to the James regime. A large pay increase in these areas will hopefully be realised at the bargaining table in 15 months.
Well first there are no sufficient number of 143 cars on the horizon so the M is 'safe'. OPTO is the future as well as reduced numbers of agents but the time frame is out there.
>The union blunder was made by the Willie James regime over the >paltry $2.00 additonal per hour OPTO pay. Considering they saved a >c/r salary, the TA had a great victory.
That's what I thought at first but it was really a TA blunder if the difference was $6-8 many T/O's would have broken ranks with CO's. As it is you can get a piece of OPTO at file 2800 or so (I really don't remember). At $6-8 many T/O's would fight for those spots and want more slots like the M, Euclid even more shuttles, heck you can OPTO half the lines between 1 and 5 am and for $8 the T/O's would drill their own trains. For omly $2 most T/O's would fight to save jobs.
As for union blunders I admire ND's dedication but Tim and Ed did not make a good impression on me and in fact most of what they have done re:the open competitive people will not help solidarity. I think ND is dying for a strike and it will be a disaster on all fronts. I did not cancel my COPE yet but I am truly sorry I joined the union, I realize there is no difference between joining and not but I am just sick of them only paying attention to certain members at the expense of others.
There are too many rumors swirling around that the M line will go OPTO on the weekends. They'd only need 2 1/2 R143 trains (20 cars) to do it. I'd wait and see if I were you.
We've all heard of fantasy football and fnatasy baseball. Talk of OPTO on the M is indeed pure fantasy for the simple reason that the mere possbility of it happening is quite a few years away.
Bill, how's your new assignment treating you?
Survived the first day as I was on vacation for the first week of the line pick.
Good point! No need to drill lots of trains because you just do it Friday night and Monday morning. One or two switching jobs and you replace a weekend full of C/O's.
Shouldn't the pick be in union hands for review about now? I thought they get it 2 weeks in advance to review for errors.
Do you Guys think they Really read the pick book? Or do you think they turn to the last pages and look up the man hours?As long as there the same or more they could care less even though Jobs are going from 9 and change to straight 8. I call it more for 8 , On the 6 line 3 trips and a layup for 8.ND is really doing alot, they suck all they want to do is strike. F them I get pissed everytime I look at my check to see what they steal from me.
Of course they do maybe not too well but they do. They check for lunch, comfort time (a sham), % of penalty jobs and significant speed ups. It is mostly stewards that do it.
As for the money, they do have more problems than the HBT. James' people all paid themselves massive pensions and then made lumpsum payouts to themselves right before the next ballon payment is due on the building.
Everyone complains but no one is willing to stand up and complain about things like bad supplements in writing.
As for runs anything over 6hrs in the cab should be a penalty job and 7 hrs should pay at least 9.
Who would riot? The crews (if they don't like it the TA sez "too bad"); the customers; the local Assembly Person Cathy Nolan who has a lot to say when it comes to funding for the TA? The line is high seniority on the midnite & AM, but the PM is high seniority no more. And with the expanded service, some of the senior people will go elsewhere come the November pick if the current schedule stays put. There is only 1 c/r who I know of who uses 1/2 train and that is one of the midnite guys.
The union is more likely to stick up for senior guys getting the shaft and yes the customers would make noises. The T/A can get away with OPTO in poor neighborhoods more easily than in more affluent ones. The D train line supervisor lives in fear of all the crazy complaints on the Brooklyn portion of that line. Met is not rich but compared to Lefferts or Far Rock they are millionaires.
I did mean midnight when I talked about not opening, you could not get away with that on days.
There are some non-senior T/O's but the conductors seem like 10 year men and up.
This has been discussed here in the past. For safety reasons, 4 cars would be adaquete. But car equipment shuns on cutting and sdding cars because they feel that this creates problems with t/o & c/r indication. And RTO doesn't want to spend the money in having the additional personel required with the additional train movements. Right now due to construction at Fresh Pond Yard, the only tracks availiable for storage are tracks 1 to 6 and 19. IF short M trains were operated, there would be no room in the yard to store the extra cars. Putting them somewhere else would cause additional personel expenses to send the cars away and to bring them back.
Well if the MTA was slick they would just start and end more M jobs from Manhattan using mainline for storage or 9th Ave lower if they ever finish whatever the heck they are doing down there. There would be little additional cost as there are already place to sign on down there and little deadhead time is involved.
We both agree it's going to happen we just disagree on why it hasn't.
I was on an Manhattanbound 'A' train Saturday night and noticed that there was a mixing of R-32's and R-38's on a local 'C' train. I never see those types of cars mixed like that (Even though they look almost the same). Any reason why this is done? Car shortages maybe??
Anthony
"I was on an Manhattanbound 'A' train Saturday night and noticed that there was a mixing of R-32's and R-38's on a local 'C' train."
I have seen that kind of mix on the (A). But have'nt seen or heard it on the (C).
Probably no rhyme or reason to it. When making up a train, they don't care if its an R-32 or R-38, as long as they couple up. When the cars were fresh from GOH back in the late 80s, they didn't mix them because of warranty. This is what I was told.
Bill "Newkirk"
Careless yardmaster.
Fascinated Railfan.
The R-32s were most likely R-32s that had GE do their GOH. They're mechanically similar to the R-38s and are treated as R-38s (i.e. they are mixed in commonly with R-38s).
Dan
Regular (M/K) GOH'ed R32's are regularly mixed with R38's. I can see doing it in an "emergency" in the sense of being uable to make full service otherwise, but lately it happens far too often. The yardmasters should know better.
Perhaps it's nostalga for a return to the 1970s, when SMEE cars were seemlingly dealt out to train consits like cards in a game of poker -- an R-16 here, an R-10 there, a pair of R-42s for you, a pair of R-27s for you...
What difference does it make? Does performance suffer or is it just an aesthetic issue? (I find the mixed R-40M/R-42 consists even more aesthetically displeasing.)
The M/K R32 and the R38 do not have the same number of "pins" in the electric portions.
It's been a while since I last posted a reply (enjoying all the beautiful weather here on the Left Coast), but I did get a chance to visit some friends/family the other week back in NYC. Some random thoughts:
1. Since I flew into JFK, I decided to take the A train to the city. As a boy growing up in Bklyn I never took the JFK express. But this connection to Manhattan made me a believer. Express into Manhattan for a $1.50 beats the shuttle vans for more $ by far! I had only been on the Fulton St line once before in my life, so this was great rainfanning and passing stops I had never seen before.
2. I was aware of the bridge flop so I knew I couldn't take the D to Sheepshead Bay anymore to visit my mom. So I ventured to 57St-7 Ave to take that new Q. There were none that day and there were no signs telling me the Q terminated at Times Square! Man, I waited for 30 minutes or so until someone on the loud speaker mentioned it! Boy the MTA is getting lax on telling passengers about changes - I saw no signs or notices on the platform. Anyways, I enjoyed the express ride down. Seems the Q is faster than the D was on 6th Ave. I'm convinced that the Brighton line should permanently be a Broadway express!
3. One day I had a few hours to myself so I went rainfanning. After living in SF, it is a treat to go back to your roots and enjoy the NYC subway. I had read that the redbirds were on the way out, so I thought to treat myself to one more 2 train ride on them. Seems luck was no my way that day at Atlantic Ave. since only those new trains (I forget the number R-???) were on. So I took one. It was weird - too clean, no railfan window to really speak of and it talks to you (e.g. Next stop - Hoyt Street)! Maybe I was being to nostalgic...
4. Someone needs to get a waterhose! The smells in the subway in August are a bit much! Maybe I've been away from NYC too long.
ScottinSF
Tokens or Metrocard, Scott?
South Ferry-
I used a token at JFK - the metrocard machine was out! :-)
ScottinSF
They should have let you in for free.
Are you giving your opinion or your understanding of actual TA policy?
(If the former, I agree. If the latter, I'm surprised.)
Too bad, no surprises for you today, but agreement there is.
Glad you had a good time.
The Broadway express is here to stay. The Sixth Av express across the bridge will return in 2004.
I finally remembered what caused me to render those misleading information about the R142(A)'s.
IT WAS ABOUT.COM!!!
I read a stupid article about the R142's on About.com's website, and THEY were the ones who mentioned:
1) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FORCE OPEN DOORS ON the R142's BECAUSE THEY'RE ELECTRONICALLY OPERATED.
2) R142's CYCLE POWER BACK INTO THE THIRD RAIL AS TO REDUCE THE HEAT GIVEN IN TUNNELS.
As a result of this stupidity, even the editor didn't know the real facts, I'm NOT GOING TO VISIT THAT IDIOTIC SITE AGAIN.
It has a bunch of misleading facts and satire that is just FALSE.
I won't take it as a joke, as I was trying to learn something about them for the first time, and THIS!!
/: (
Railfan Pete.
Actually, one of those statements (#1) comes from the description of the R110 test program page on this site (click here). But it's not the fact that they're electronically operated that keeps them closed, it was a change to the drive mechanism. I don't know if that carried over from the R110's to the R142's.
As for #2, that sounds like a description of regenerative braking which the R142's are supposed to be equipped with. I've heard that it is disabled until some modifications can be made to the power supply system. Try a google search for regenerative braking to see how it works.
Anyone hear how the train converted to regenerative braking did? THe test was over 7/31/01 wasn't it?
david... i suppose i should read other people's posts, but i am really surprised to hear that the regenerative braking system is currently disabled... that was one bright spot to the new equipment that i liked...
Paul-- that's what I've *heard*. Whether that problem has been resolved yet or not I don't know.
Do you even know what satire MEANS?
YES I DO American Pig. I was drilled in with the subject in my English class during the summer. We read a couple of stories with "satire", and I know what it means from a college professor.
It's an exaggeration of facts, preferably in a downward or a negative way to society.
And don't tell me it's wrong.....
Railfan Pete.
It's an exaggeration of facts, preferably in a downward or a negative way to society.
No, it isn't. Satire is an attack on human deficiencies and frailties, using irony or wit, and is frequently humorous. A machine cannot be satirized, and I can't imagine how your reference, if it was "an exaggeration of facts" could be considered satire, even if machines could be its subject.
My Folk Life Festival Photos are online. Please point your browsers to http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics2/folklife.htm to view the photos.
Judging by the atmosphere in the photo, it looks like a hot humid day. I was there on Sat. July 7th and the day was cooler and dry.
I believe that the list of car numbers for the first Redbirds to be sunk had #9056 on the list. If that's true, that's a shame. That car was gorgeously redone for a static display.
Bill "Newkirk"
It was June 27 that I attended.
"It was June 27 that I attended."
I guess that would make sense. When I was there, the TA T/O on #9056 said the weather a week earlier was unbearable.
Bill "Newkirk"
I see they hooked up three battery chargers in series to get the buzzers and headlights to work. What else did they manage to get running while on display?
That's it. The doors may have been connected to the packs as well.
Yes, the doors on the right side of the car were opening and closing when I was there on July 4. The lady operator would call out "doors closing, please stand clear". Everyone was playing around with the signboxes as well with all sorts of different destinations.
Which monkey decided to cancel the W all weekend without bothering to post anything on the service advisories page?
Sure, the Stillwell-bound N was operating over the West End. That doesn't mean there's no Pacific-bound service at all on the West End! In fact, the poster even directs passengers to the W.
The N (and R, I assume) also ran express from 59th Street to Pacific Street. According to the announcement, the express run was supposed to begin only at 36th Street. With the scheduled N diversion, backtrackers had only the R to rely on.
In addition to being a major inconvenience and costing travelers a lot of time (even more time than they may have allocated if they check the advisories in advance), this is also an ADA issue. Only the W platform at Stillwell is accessible. Then again, that elevator is out of service so often that I suppose it doesn't matter.
Announcements were good, for the most part (with one exception -- see my next post).
We don't call it the "Weak and Weary" for nothing! I guess we can add "Where Is It" to the list of nicknames.
waaaaayne
I rode HBLR out to West Side Ave on Saturday for the first time in about a year. I noticed that the pedestrian overpass bridge to the park-n-ride lot was built. Are there still plans for extending service from West Side Ave. to Route 440 ?
At 34th St/Bayonne, I checked out the finished pedestrian overpass to that park-n-ride lot. Did anyone notice a small office on the second floor by the elevator on the parking lot side ? Is this for security or a dispatcher ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Are there still plans for extending service from West Side Ave. to Route 440?
As far as I know, there was not supposed to be any extension past West Side Ave. I know of an extension past 34th Street in Bayoone to 22nd Street, but certainly not of any extension past W. Side Av.
As far as an office on the second floor by the elevator, IDK about that.
Cleanairbus
hybridbus@aol.com
carlwal@hotmail.com
The 22nd St station is already under construction, I believe.
http://www.ci.jersey-city.nj.us/docs/lightrailmap.htm
I've seen a similar map, only the colors were different and areas 1, 2, 3, and 4 were labeled 'Phase I' between 34th St, West Side Ave, and Exchange Place; Area 3 to Hoboken was labeled Phase IIA and Phase IIB (A as far as Newport, B from Newport to Hoboken)
The future expansion area to Vince Lombardi was labeled as Phase III, UNFUNDED, from 34th to 22nd as Phase III (Funding Approved). The Area 5 wasn't shown, and the extension to 440 was shown as Proposed.
-Hank
Maybe someone else can figure this out. I can't. It happened yesterday evening.
I'm trying to get from 42nd Street to 86th Street on the 1.
I pass up a crowded R-142 trainset on the 2 so I can avoid waiting at 72nd Street, or at least so I can get a seat on the empty 3 waiting to enter service half a station away.
A 1 enters on the local track. I board.
We wait in the station, presumably to make the connection for the approaching 3 on the express track. Nobody gets off the 3 to change to the local because the 3 wasn't in service south of 42nd Street this weekend. Surely the TW/O and C/R are aware of this GO.
After the 3 pulls out, we take off. Only as we bypass 50th Street does the C/R first bother announcing that we're bypassing 50th Street (duh -- next time try saying something before the train leaves the previous station) and that our next stops will be 59th, 72nd, and 96th.
I'm hoping someone can answer a few questions:
Why were we held to connect to a train that wasn't yet in service?
Why were we held at all if we were already behind schedule?
Anyone who wanted express service had a beautifully empty 3 train available across the platform at 42nd Street. Those who remained on the 1 presumably wanted local service. It's not a local if it doesn't stop at the local stops. So who benefits from skipped local stops?
When was the last day (full 24-hour period from midnight to midnight) that every single 1/9 train, as scheduled in the official timetable, has made every scheduled stop? Is it really too much to ask that the local run local?
Why wasn't the service change announced before the doors closed? Or, conversely, since the doors had closed before any announcement was made, why was the intended service change carried out?
Were passengers trying to get to 66th Street who missed the feeble announcement at 59th Street granted permission to cross over for free at 72nd Street, or were they forced to pay another fare or travel three miles out of their way?
I don't know that answers to your questions, but I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion. Lately I've been experiencing them at least once a week when I board at 34th/Penn. Fortunately, the battery runs all stop at Houston Street, where I get off, even though it's a local stop.
I don't know that answers to your questions, but I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion.
Don't you see a problem with that?
If it's a regular service pattern, it should be explicitly listed on the timetable.
Except for the skip-stop stations north of 137th Street served by the 9, the timetable indicates that every 1 train makes every stop between South Ferry and 242nd Street.
I don't know that answers to your questions, but I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion.
Don't you see a problem with that?
If it's a regular service pattern, it should be explicitly listed on the timetable.
Except for the skip-stop stations north of 137th Street served by the 9, the timetable indicates that every 1 train makes every stop between South Ferry and 242nd Street.
I suppose the reason is that battery runs are considered to be exceptions to standard service patterns, made on an unscheduled basis when train spacing gets too far out of whack. Adding a caution to the timetables might be more confusing than helpful. The conductors do a pretty good job of annoucing battery runs, and people generally seem to know what to do.
It's gotten so I can generally tell if the next 1/9 at Penn will be making a battery run based on platform crowding.
If it happens once in a while, I agree.
If it happens every day, it's predictable. The recurring practice should be either eliminated or made official.
The TA gives the public the impression that they can expect a certain level of service at local stations. If that level of service is regularly not maintained, the TA is cheating its customers and taxpayers.
What I can't figure out is why the 1/9 has all these battery runs compared to other local lines. About all I can think of is that the long express "gap" between 72nd and 42nd leads to overcrowding on the locals.
The line runs through the most densely populated neighborhood in the country. Lots of people depend on those local stops.
One of the system's major transfer points is a local stop. The city's primary performing arts center is at a local stop. Three major universities are at local stops.
The TA is used to thinking in what I'll call a Queens Boulevard mode: get everyone way out as quickly as possible. On QB, most passengers cram onto the E and F, leaving the G and R for those who don't mind a slow ride as well as those relatively few who actually need local service. If an R skips a few stops, I'm sure many passengers are quite pleased.
Contrast that with the 1/9. Around 1990, when I was on a train that was rerouted to the express track from 96th to 137th with no prior warning, the train practically emptied out at 137th as probably over 1000 angry passengers stormed out of the station. The Queens Boulevard mode does not apply to the 1/9 but it is often applied to the 1/9 regardless.
The 1/9 is one of only a few lines that shares no trackage with other lines. Turning at the south end is quick, and there are two potential north termini, although one is not currently in use. I see no reason that trains can't arrive on the local track as frequently as they arrive on the express track.
I'm not even convinced that battery runs accomplish anything on a popular local. With all the confusion and door holding that a reroute inevitably brings as passengers try to figure out if the train on the local track signed as a local will actually be making local stops, I'm not convinced it wouldn't be faster to just make the stops and be done with it.
>I'm not convinced it wouldn't be faster to just make the stops and >be done with it.
It not only works it works for the train behind if it is conga line time. You lose time a one station dumping people but gain it on the next few station stops and usually those stations would have had extra people getting on or off. Even if the leader takes all passengers and the second train is empty the second train still has to spend the same amount of time following the leader. It's like both trains spend time picking up the same people.
When it does not work is when the TD gets lazy and there are 3 trains together like in the connector. Typically there were 3 trains running local and the typical thing to do was keep them local to Roosevelt then send the first two express. This is almost useless the trains delay each other to 74 and the two with the battery knock heads too. A better way is to give the first train Northern, 74th and then 71 so it would not slow down the second train which would go Northern then local and the last train making all local.
I apologive for my QB mentality. I did live on B'Way and 123rd and wnet to Columbia while living in Queens so I do have 10 yrs of 1 train experience.
Skipping stops is typically only done as the worst of several evils. It is a necessary part of running a good rail line. If it is done frequently, then that probably indicates that the line is a very difficult operating environment, with a great many factors causing irregularities. This doesn't mean that the irregularities should be eliminated somehow (e.g. by imposing overly long, timed dwells, by eliminating the possibility of cross-platform transfers with physical barriers, and allowing turnstiles to block out passengers under demand spikes)--that would make the system slow, infrequent, and far less efficient. What is needed are clear, audible and quick announcements when a train is to skip stops, and dispatchers who are thinking of the downstream impact on *all* passengers and the crew schedule.
If there was an anti-expressing policy, in order to insure that local stations recieve as much thruput as they are scheduled to have, then on the whole passengers would lose out.
For example, if a train is not send express to close a gap, it will arrive to pick you up at a local station far later than it otherwise would have (if it is fully loaded). That doesn't make the situation better for you at all!
Skipping stops is typically only done as the worst of several evils. It is a necessary part of running a good rail line. If it is done frequently, then that probably indicates that the line is a very difficult operating environment, with a great many factors causing irregularities. This doesn't mean that the irregularities should be eliminated somehow (e.g. by imposing overly long, timed dwells, by eliminating the possibility of cross-platform transfers with physical barriers, and allowing turnstiles to block out passengers under demand spikes)--that would make the system slow, infrequent, and far less efficient. What is needed are clear, audible and quick announcements when a train is to skip stops, and dispatchers who are thinking of the downstream impact on *all* passengers and the crew schedule.
You are making an interesting claim here, one that I find quite counterintuitive. You seem to be saying that there is simply no way to keep trains moving without skipping scheduled stops. I find that hard to believe. If, as I suspect, trains are being delayed because of large crowds at the local stations, wouldn't a better solution be to simply run more local service? There is excess capacity on the 1/9 tracks.
Are dispatchers really thinking of all passengers? More likely, they're simply trying to get that train up to 242nd as fast as possible, passengers be damned. True, the sooner it reaches 242nd, the sooner it can enter southbound service. But there are other options to accomodate southbound service, like short-turning at 137th, reaching into a yard to put an extra train into service, or switching a 2 or 3 onto the local track. Delays tend to be in the peak direction, so when there are problems in northbound service, chances are some of those northbound trains won't even be returning to South Ferry.
If there was an anti-expressing policy, in order to insure that local stations recieve as much thruput as they are scheduled to have, then on the whole passengers would lose out.
For example, if a train is not send express to close a gap, it will arrive to pick you up at a local station far later than it otherwise would have (if it is fully loaded). That doesn't make the situation better for you at all!
It doesn't? I'd rather have a late train than one that doesn't stop to pick me up at all.
Have you ever stood on the (hot, narrow, and invariably crowded) northbound platform at 72nd Street in the afternoon rush hour? You'll probably see three or four trains go by on the express track, each dumping more passengers onto the platform, before a train finally arrives on the local track. Invariably, passengers will get on and right back off as they hear the announcement (or assume the C/R isn't even bothering to announce the inevitable), leaving the train nearly empty (after all, anyone who actually wanted an express would have opted for one of the many true expresses). The platform, on the other hand, has by now reached the danger point. Eventually an actual local arrives, and the crowd on the platform forces its way onto the already packed train, since nobody knows when the next local might arrive. Actual local-to-local rush hour headways often exceed ten minutes. On the IRT line through the most densely populated neighborhood in the U.S. Is that crazy or what? That puts the 1/9 in the same league as the G and the separate branches of the A. Don't you think 66th Street should get better service than Broad Channel?
Battery runs might be less disruptive if they still made most (i.e., more than half) of the local stops. For instance, a train might make two of three stops between 42nd and 72nd, one of two stops between 72n and 96th, three of five stops between 96th and 137th. Flip a coin so it's not always the same stations that get skipped. That way at least some passengers would be able to stay on the train. Duplicating express service on the local track helps no one.
As I've said in earlier posts, I also have a significant problem with an everyday occurrence like this being officially unscheduled. That means that when the scheduling folks in Brooklyn are deciding where to add service, the 1/9 local stops are overlooked because they appear to be getting more service than they actually are.
I suppose the MTA could try extending the 1/9 skip stop south to Times Square. Both trains would stop at 42nd, 72nd and 96th, of course, and they both would have to stop at 59th as well for the A/B/C/D transfer. That would leave something like this for a service pattern:
Times Square: 1/9
50th St.: 9
59th St.: 1/9
66th St.: 1
72nd St.: 1/9
79th St.: 9
86th St.: 1
96th St.: 1/9
Obviously there's still a problem if you want to go from 50th St. to 86th St., for example. But it would cut at least some of the crowding at the express stops.
That would be a disaster. The local stations need more service, not less.
Does someone have a ranked list of stations by popularity? I have a strong feeling these stations are among the most popular in residential areas, moreso than even many express stations.
That would be a disaster. The local stations need more service, not less.
The ideal answer would be more trains per hour, and/or having the trains better spaced out to avoid platform overcrowding. But unless the MTA suddenly decides to save a 100 or so Redbirds for a few extra years to boost capacity (I expect the extra trains in the R-142 option order will be designed to primarily boost East Side IRT service), then given the same number of trains, the question is: Would it be better to buzz every local stop between 42nd and 96th to make up time or try a skip-stop service, with the 1 and 9 each bypassing two stations from Times Square to where the 1/9 splits off from the 2/3 at 96th?
That would at least clear some of the passengers off the local platform at 72nd, depending on whether or not they were going to 86th or 79th St. instead of keeping them all standing on that narrow space while the 1/9 shoots on up to 96th.
A service boost on the 1/9 has been promised here. It remains to be seen how much of a boost it will be, but I am looking forward.
Before throwing away functioning (if old) cars, the TA should expand its IRT fleet so that it could, conceivably, run each line at its maximum theoretical capacity. I don't know if there will be enough cas with out the Redbirds, but I can guarantee that 1/9 passengers would much rather sweat out a ride on even an R-33 single (and, presumably, there would be better choices to hold onto) than wait an extra minute at the dreadful 72nd Street station. (There is no ventilation in that station at all except for a few very narrow staircases, and they don't accomplish much if the stationhouse doors are closed.) (And before anyone brings up the South Ferry issue, yes, I'm aware. Option 1: Only R-62A's stop at South Ferry. Option 2: The 1/9 goes 100% Redbird; move the gap fillers. Option 3: Do whatever was done at Union Square to allow the fillers to function with all car types.)
But I'm afraid your skip-stop plan is not a good idea. Even though it sometimes seems like most locals are skipping the local stops, I do think that most (over half, if not by much) do stop. So skip-stop would be a service reduction. The platforms at 72nd would still be crowded, now also with people trying to get from a 1 stop to a 9 stop.
What I suggested was still running most trains local, but when a train must skip stops, have it skip only half (or so). Only the passengers bound for the other stops would have to wait. In fact, if (say) I'm going to 86th Street but the train I'm on is skipping my stop, as long as I'm assured that the following train will make all stops, I can wait for it at 79th, which is much cooler and has a wider, safer side platform than 72nd.
There are supposed to be more R-142s arriving than there are Redbirds departing, but as I said, the Lex will probably get priority over the 1/9 for the additional cars, due to the massive crowding problems on the 4/5/6 between Union Square and 86th Street.
If the MTA did decide to further add capacity to the system by keeping 100 or so of the healthiest `Birds for a few more years, that doesn't mean any of them would have to see the 1/9 and force a gap-filler adjustment; some of the cars could be kept on their current lines, like the 2, 4 or 7, and as the R-142s arrive, some of the R-62s could be added to the 1/9 (or if the No. 7 kept 100 of their old cars, then about two-thirds of the No. 3's fleet of R-62As could go over to Flushing as the R-142s arrive, while the remaining third would shift over to the 1/9 lines).
There are supposed to be more R-142s arriving than there are Redbirds departing, but as I said, the Lex will probably get priority over the 1/9 for the additional cars, due to the massive crowding problems on the 4/5/6 between Union Square and 86th Street.
I thought the 4/5/6 was already operating at (or very close to) theoretical capacity, at least according to the TA's models.
I know there will be more R-142's than there were Redbirds, but how many more? As I said, at least on the IRT, the TA should have enough cars to run each line at maximum capacity. I don't know if that means holding onto some Redbirds.
If the MTA did decide to further add capacity to the system by keeping 100 or so of the healthiest `Birds for a few more years, that doesn't mean any of them would have to see the 1/9 and force a gap-filler adjustment; some of the cars could be kept on their current lines, like the 2, 4 or 7, and as the R-142s arrive, some of the R-62s could be added to the 1/9 (or if the No. 7 kept 100 of their old cars, then about two-thirds of the No. 3's fleet of R-62As could go over to Flushing as the R-142s arrive, while the remaining third would shift over to the 1/9 lines).
I know, but for some reason some people get very distressed if their line's cars are older than some other line's cars. If the Redbirds are placed specifically where they will be increasing service, it might be easier to placate the masses.
David--
Thanks for your post. The biggest cause of irregularities is, I would argue based on comments from schedulers at NYCT, is not that dwells are particularly sensitive to being a few seconds ahead or behind of the scheduled headway. Rather, it is that when express and local trains stop across the platform from each other with both doors open, the dwells skyrocket.
I suspect also that the loop at South Ferry also constrains the amount of scheduled vehicle recovery time at Cortland St (or is it Chambers St) northbound and southbound.
The question is open whether the dispatchers always do the right thing. I'm sure someone knows the answer. You're pointing out one instance where a battery run may have been pointless, but then you're generalizing about skipping stops. Often times, passengers make complaints on survey forms that expressing ought to be marked on the schedule. It is a tool which, by its nature, needs to be unscheduled in order to be effective. That doesn't mean it will always be done successfully.
All I'm saying is that it is a necessary part of running most high-frequency rail lines, especially those that have many sources of irregularity. Once again, the cause of great irregularity is probably not heavy loading on the 1/9. Dwells are not *that* sensitive to passenger loading on heavy rail cars.
If the late trip was going to become a layup, then there's no point expressing it past the peak load point. I don't know what the volume profile of the 1/9 is, but I'd be willing to guess that it might have twin peaks. Does the battery run you experienced make sense given the volume profile at the time of day you were riding? The volume profile is one of the inputs in the expressing decision.
General NYCTA service control guidelines, if I'm not mistaken, say that a gap should be filled from alongside if possible, before considering filling it from behind (expressing on same track) or ahead (holding ahead of gap). Perhaps someone can correct me here.
You may have a legitimate gripe about what they did with the battery run you experienced, but skipping stops is a normal part of running a rail line. If you don't do it, you can hurt passengers overall in many cases. But if you do it, you have to make sure the announcements are clear, audible and quick.
I had said:
"For example, if a train is not send express to close a gap, it will arrive to pick you up at a local station far later than it otherwise would have (if it is fully loaded). That doesn't make the situation better for you at all!"
You said in response:
"It doesn't? I'd rather have a late train than one that doesn't stop to pick me up at all."
What I meant was that you may *still* board a train sooner than if there had been no expressing. This depends on how far downstream you are from the first station being skipped. You may arrive sooner at your destination because your train is less heavily loaded than it would have been if its preceding train had not been sent express.
In this situation, the passenger doesn't know what's good for them. I know more about this situation in the MBTA Red Line case, in which people think they are missing their commuter rail connection because their Red Line train was sent express after a 10-15 min. delay, but they wouldn't have made their connection anyway even if no expressing had been done (because a crush loaded train will move very slowly).
"If there was an anti-expressing policy, in order to insure that local stations recieve as much thruput as they are scheduled to have, then on the whole passengers would lose out."
I have to agree. Here in Chicago, there was a period of a decade or so where the CTA would NOT do express/battery runs, no matter what. There was no official announcement, but it was clearly policy as even near-disasters didn't result in express runs.
Personal experience: a Blue Line train burned at Rosemont (right near the yards) at the height of morning rush hour, and the next train made every stop like nothing happened! The train stopped for three to five MINUTES in each station as a mob of people tried to force themselves onto an already crush-loaded train. And crush load was already achieved at Jefferson Park -- NOBODY could get on east of there! The people near the doors did a "repel boarders" thing with their umbrellas and canes to keep the people on the platforms from further crushing them! And yet we kept stopping at each and every station.
When CTA suddenly decided to return to using express runs -- again, no press release, but it was clear -- I was very happy.
Keep in mind one major difference between the Chicago system and the New York system: express tracks.
That has two implications.
First, when a track is blocked in NYC, trains can go around the obstruction on the other track. Service may be slow (since in many cases one track simply doesn't have the capacity to hold all of the trains scheduled to use both tracks) but there are no total stoppages.
Second, once service is back to normal, passengers going long distances will ride the scheduled express service in any case. Only the passengers traveling to and from local stations will wait for the local, and having trains on the local track skip local stations certainly doesn't help those passengers any.
I agree, in Chicago there is often reason to skip stops. In New York, the practice should be reserved for major problems. In fact, it takes place nearly every day, on a line which already has more scheduled express service than local service.
It might be by bulletin. On the B'Way line there is a list of runs that the TD is allowed to ABD without the usual jumping thru hoops.
What's "ABD"?
- Lyle Goldman
ABanDoned I'm tired and in no mood to check spelling. You should get the meaning though.
>>> I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion. <<<
Maybe I was just unaware of it, but in the ‘50s I never heard of the New York subways skipping stops. An express was an express, and a local stopped at every local station. When did this change?
Tom
A memory fades (the goold ole days were not that good), no offense and B the rush hour headways were so tight there was no where to go.
What exactly are "battery runs"?
- Lyle Goldman
What exactly are "battery runs"?
When a local train skips some stops. It stays on the local track, but goes past some stations without stopping.
But a battery run would never skip South Ferry. A battery run must stop at the Battery!
But a battery run would never skip South Ferry. A battery run must stop at the Battery!
Heh heh. Actually, the battery runs on the 1/9 seem to end at Chambers Street, the trains don't skip Cortlandt or Rector.
I wonder why that is.
Especially late at night when the ferry runs infrequently, it might actually be appropriate to skip those stops southbound when doing so would allow passengers to catch the boat. Passengers for Cortlandt and Rector would just stay on the train through the loop and back up -- unlike the typical battery run, there's no uncertainty about when the next train will show up.
Never say never I have had new C/R's that operated so carefully that Times Square told me at 14th to "inform your customers that your next stop will be Chambers then South Ferry" and this was 10:00 pm on a Sunday!
I once saw a Sunday afternoon 1 train run nonstop from South Ferry to Chambers. This was one of the weekends the 5 was running light from Chambers to Bowling Green, so the added congestion may have been a factor.
It actually happens quite often during the morning rush - I've done it 6 times while operating and a lot more while riding.
David, I enjoy your sense of humor. On this topic, where did the southbound #1 terminate bet. the hours of 12:01 AM & 7 AM on 9/2? When I was At SO FY on Sat. eve about 10 PM, the station agent insisted "No trains here until Monday morning.
Thanks.
At Chambers, I'd guess. The entire point of sending the 1 to New Lots was to keep the line clear south of Chambers.
And what was the point of keeping the line clear south of Chambers Street?
- Lyle Goldman
Pouring concrete between Cortlandt st. and Rector.
To quote from an officail TA document:
Battery Run - A sequence of revenue trains "skipping" stations. designed to fill a gap in service from behind and must follow each other immediately.
Run - The act of skipping scheduled station stops to prevent the overloading of the first train behind the delay.
To paraphrase - when only one train skips stations and the next is normal, you have witnessed a run. When multiple, back to back trains skip stations, you have witnessed a battery run.
Amazingly enough, the only times I have actually seen a true battery run was on the 1. Due to a power outtage, there was a major delay in getting trains to VC. Once power was restored, all the trains were able to get through. The first arrival was sent out "next stop 168 then 137"; the next went 231, Dyckman, 168, 137; the third made all stops. This, plus turning trains at 137, put the trains back in place with a minimum of delay (of course the people at the bypassed stations would probably argue)
I apologize, then, for the inaccurate subject line.
I don't know that answers to your questions, but I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion.
Quite a few times when I've taken the 1 downtown from Penn Station around 9-10pm on a weeknight it makes express stops (plus Houston St) from 34th to Chambers. I'm always amazed that the 1 can fall that far behind schedule at that hour.
And, there is always endless confusion on the part of the passengers on these local-running-express trains. The comment, "But I thought the 1 stops everywhere" is often heard, along with, "Why didn't they announce this?" even though, in my experience, they always do announce it clearly and repeatedly.
There is a ton of 1 passengers on and off the train before 96th St and that gives plenty of stops to lose time. Plus being held for connections. That train might not be late but the one in front of it may have dropped out and they need to fill the gap fast.
I asked six questions. Someone answered one of them, although (as is apparent from my reply) I disagree with his answer. Would anyone like to take a stab at the other five?
You asked eight questions, not six. Nonetheless, here are my answers. Just remember, since I wasn't there, these are not necessarily the 'true' answers. Someday I hope to be stuck in the same mess as you and have my radio with me, so we can find out what is really happening.
Why were we held to connect to a train that wasn't yet in service?
You were held for some other reason; it just appeared that you were held for the 3.
Why were we held at all if we were already behind schedule?
Who said you were behind schedule? It could have been a problem ahead of you - you were held while the extent of the problem was sorted out.
Anyone who wanted express service had a beautifully empty 3 train available across the platform at 42nd Street. Those who remained on the 1 presumably wanted local service. It's not a local if it doesn't stop at the local stops. So who benefits from skipped local stops?
The people further along the line and the people waiting for a train to come in the other direction. If I skip stops going north, the train goes back into service southbound that much sooner.
When was the last day (full 24-hour period from midnight to midnight) that every single 1/9 train, as scheduled in the official timetable, has made every scheduled stop?
As a shot in the dark guess, sometime before June of 2000, when they skeletonized the tracks at 72 St northbound. Of course, it depends on how you define official - when a GO causes stations to be skipped, the supplement schedule that is put into place becomes 'official'. Using this definition, it was probably sometime in the last two or three weeks.
Is it really too much to ask that the local run local?
No, but shit happens. Deal with it. Yesterday they took a southbound A out of service - that meant a 40 minute gap in service to Far Rock. You, on the other hand, were taken 10 blocks out of your way.
Why wasn't the service change announced before the doors closed?
Because the crew wasn't informed of it before then.
Or, conversely, since the doors had closed before any announcement was made, why was the intended service change carried out?
Because very few people argue with the voice of authority, train crews included. The crew should have told the TD they were on the move and would stop at 50 St to let local passengers out.
Were passengers trying to get to 66th Street who missed the feeble announcement at 59th Street granted permission to cross over for free at 72nd Street, or were they forced to pay another fare or travel three miles out of their way?
Don't know. That would depend on the SA in charge.
Doesn't this get alittle thin after a while? Every time you have a problem on the 1, you ask the same questions and get annoyed at the same answers. Why don't you put pen to paper and ask the Powers That Be down at Jay Street? They might be able to give you better answers.
You were held for some other reason; it just appeared that you were held for the 3.
Perhaps. It would be nice if the C/R could reveal why the train is being held (along with an ETD). (I realize he doesn't always know either.)
Who said you were behind schedule? It could have been a problem ahead of you - you were held while the extent of the problem was sorted out.
It's possible, but I had been waiting about five minutes and there were no red signals directly ahead of the station. Besides, wouldn't the train have been held at 34th if there was a problem, so, if necessary, it could divert to the express track? Once at 42nd there's no way off the local track (except to back onto the shuttle, which would really be of little use).
The people further along the line and the people waiting for a train to come in the other direction. If I skip stops going north, the train goes back into service southbound that much sooner.
Not really. As I said before, I doubt the typical run actually saves any time. A few seconds are saved at each bypassed station but the confusion at each express stop eats up all the saved time, if not more. In this case, the next local was sitting right behind the one I left at 72nd. I suppose this could be avoided by making very few stops (say, 42-96-168-etc.), but on a line like the 1, that would dump almost everyone onto the platform.
Does the TA actually time runs, including dwells?
There are other ways to fill gaps further up the line. An extra train could be pulled in out of the yard. (That assumes there are extra cars available -- surely on Sundays there are, although this past Sunday in particular may have been an exception -- and that there are extra crew members available.) A train could be turned at 137th. (Yes, that denies service to anyone north of 137th, but consider it a non-stop run to 242nd and back that saves a lot of time. The stations north of 137th aren't as busy as the ones south of it; although everyone should get proper service, I'd rather see service denied to less popular stations than to more popular stations.) An express could be switched onto the local track to fill in the gap, allowing the 1 train behind it to make better time or even to run express itself.
As a shot in the dark guess, sometime before June of 2000, when they skeletonized the tracks at 72 St northbound. Of course, it depends on how you define official - when a GO causes stations to be skipped, the supplement schedule that is put into place becomes 'official'. Using this definition, it was probably sometime in the last two or three weeks.
I can accept publicized GO's as regular service (although it would be nice if the supplement schedule were available to the public).
Two or three weeks is a long time to go without regular service. One or two days I can understand. Extenuating circumstances (water main break or the like) I can understand. Going for two or three weeks without a single day of regular service indicates that the TA's idea of regular service is unreasonable and should be corrected (whatever that means).
No, but shit happens. Deal with it. Yesterday they took a southbound A out of service - that meant a 40 minute gap in service to Far Rock. You, on the other hand, were taken 10 blocks out of your way.
Apples and oranges. I don't think Far Rockaway gets hit with doubled headways every day. The 1/9 local stops do get hit with doubled headways nearly every day.
Because very few people argue with the voice of authority, train crews included. The crew should have told the TD they were on the move and would stop at 50 St to let local passengers out.
I didn't know that was ever done.
Doesn't this get alittle thin after a while? Every time you have a problem on the 1, you ask the same questions and get annoyed at the same answers. Why don't you put pen to paper and ask the Powers That Be down at Jay Street? They might be able to give you better answers.
Is there any chance at all that my letter would improve the situation?
Thank you. I do appreciate your answers, believe it or not.
David as a T/O on the 1/9 I will TRY to answer your questions:
1) The 1 my have been held at TSQ for a few reasons and they are
a)T/D misread the schedule (we are all human, plus the supplement
for the G.O. looked good on paper but all the T/D's, T/O,s and
C/R's knew it would not work out that way)
b)with all trains coming from Brooklyn including the collector
mistakes are bound to happen.
c)train gapped due to a delay behind it (even out the headway)
then the tower realizes it made a mistake and informs the crew
after the train is in motion to make express stops. (C/R
should have made announcements and T/O stop at 50th to let
local passengers off)
I have done the above when told to make my next stop 137 just as I am leaving 96, I make the announcement that after 103, 137 will be next just to give the passengers an opportunity to exit the train and board the one behind me that will be making all local stops.
The G.O. this past weekend with the 1 going to New Lots was CLUSTER PH^David this probably will give you more questions then answers but until the TA starts dealing with what actually happens on the "railroad" when they draw up these G.O.'s (passenger confusion, crew unfamiliarity with the line, new C/R's and T/O's being extra careful and other unforseen events that we all know will happen MURPHY'S LAW) we all have to learn how to deal with it, passengers, crews,TW/O's and T/D's and do the best we can.
Thank you.
In the interest of customer service -- perhaps the area in which the TA has room for the most improvement -- IMO the TA should impose a rule: if the C/R does not announce a planned skipped stop before the doors are closed at the previous stop, then the stop is made contrary to plans. The only exceptions would be (a) when the express track is the only way around a physical obstruction (train gone dead, broken rail, etc.) and (b) when, for whatever reason, the skipped station cannot accept passengers (power outage, flooding, police action, etc.). (Of course, if the information is available in advance, the C/R should announce these changes as well.) I do appreciate that you stop at 103rd when no announcement is made at 96th; I've never experienced a battery run with any stops made other than express stops and a small handful of designated local stops (e.g., 59th and Houston, and even those are sometimes skipped).
It's all part of the plot to make you buy unlimited Metrocard so you can cross anywhere or change from train to bus at will.
How long did you have to wait for the next local at 72nd?
A few seconds. Had the first train just made its regular local stops, both it and its follower would have made it to 96th earlier.
There is an article in the past Sunday's Newsday, I believe on page A-33 about LI Bus. I cannot access the article on Newsday's website because the idiots who run www.newsday.com goofed up and all the local articles are missing. So if anybody could please, PLEASE scan the article and send it to my email I would appreciate very much.
Visit your local library or the Queens Library (assuming this article was in the Queens Edition also, although Jamaica may have the LI Edition).
I found a whole stack of Sunday Newsdays the local Deli was getting rid of, just a matter of pulling the paper out of the tightly bundled pile.
Yesterday morning at about 9:30, I entered 34th Street on the 1/2/3/9 at the south entrance from Penn Station proper. The entrance was 100% open, with turnstiles in full swing. Not a HEET was in sight. There was a token booth. However, it was vacant, with handwritten CLOSED signs in the windows.
Is this an experiment on the part of the TA?
Yesterday morning at about 9:30, I entered 34th Street on the 1/2/3/9 at the south entrance from Penn Station proper. The entrance was 100% open, with turnstiles in full swing. Not a HEET was in sight. There was a token booth. However, it was vacant, with handwritten CLOSED signs in the windows.
Is this an experiment on the part of the TA?
Or maybe a police sting operation.
Everyone I saw there was briskly entering or exiting the station.
Briskly? You mean as if they had already had their Lipton tea?
:0)
I'm sure they did. Penn Station had much more activity than I imagined it would at that time of day on a Sunday morning (of a holiday weekend, yet). (I merely stopped off there to use the men's room. Speaking of which, of the three in-system ones I tried to use, all were closed for repairs. Did the TA run out of water or something?)
I just want to verify a few things I saw on the way up to NYC on Saturday.
1) After departing Newark, there is a section of new track on white concrete ties at a lower grade than the mainline NE Corridor tracks. Do they belong to the HBLR?
2) There are two new stations being built in proximity to Newark. I know one of them is the Seacaucus station (which I really don't know much about). What's the other one that's nearly complete?
The nearly complete station south of Newark on the Northeast Corridor line is Newark Airport station, which will connect with the monorail line to the airport. The station is supposed to open this fall. The monorail cars have already been making test runs on the new segment of the airport line. I've spotted them a couple of times already.
I think you are referring to the NJT M&E division main line.
The Secaucus Transfer Station is intended, if I recall correctly, to provide NJT rail passengers on the Erie-Lackawana branches with a way to get to Penn Station. The alternative, currently the default, is riding to Hoboken and using PATH or a ferry to get across the Hudson.
Erie branches. The Lackawanna branches (except Boonton) are the ones that connect via MidTown Direct. Erie and the Delaware, Lackawanna and Western merged in 1960.
Allright. So will the Secaucus station allow for transfer between NY-Penn trains and Port Jervis and Pascack Valley trains?
:-) Andrew
That's the whole point.
1) After departing Newark, there is a section of new track on white concrete ties at a lower grade than the mainline NE Corridor tracks. Do they belong to the HBLR?
Which direction from Newark? If southbound, the new rail is for the Newark Int'l Airport Rail Station, and the one next to all of the ramps and bridges, ask the experts. I have seen a freight line run over it, but it depends on which section you're talking about. I am a weekly rider of NJT in this area, and I see it every week.
1) ALSO, did the new section of track you saw have catenary wires? If not, it doesn't belong to the HBLR.
If northbound, I don't know which section you're talking about. There are many new-built rails around the Secaucus Transfer station, designed to connect from NJT's Main Line track to the NE Corridor.
You'll see many rail segments "stacked up" on top of each other, and during working hours, they are working on building a whole entire bridge to accomodate 2 new tracks for the station. The catenary wires are already hung up in some of them, so that's where the new rails will lie.
There are several tracks which run underneath the high ramps that the NEC trains travel on in the Secaucus area, which is used for the BOONTON line and various freight lines in the area. There is a freight yard nearby.
Depending on which section, I don't think the HBLR can even be seen from the NEC tracks.
2) There are two new stations being built in proximity to Newark. I know one of them is the Seacaucus station (which I really don't know much about). What's the other one that's nearly complete?
The other one is the Newark Airport Rail Station, scheduled to be completed and opened by Sept. 30, and the Secaucus Transfer is the other one, scheduled to be completed within 2002. Those workers have a lot to get done even as of now. Hold your breath....
: )
Railfan Pete.
I see it when I go northbound. It does have catenary and I'm pretty sure it is HBLR now.
You can't see the HBLR from the Northeast Corridor.
If you're talking about tracks that are between the NEC and I-280 highway that's the NJT Morris & Essex line. (Three tracks, w/ catenary). The NEC crosses over it under the turnpike overpass.
What I saw was a single track. It was right under a highway overpass.
What I saw was a single track. It was right under a highway overpass.
Possibly if you could denote which highway it was, that would clear up a lot of doubts at this point and to get your question answered.
Since you said "northbound", the only highway overpass you will encounter is with the N.J. Turnpike. No white ties here.
Southbound: Highway overpass is the Rt. 22 multiple ramnps. A single track (but not a segment or section) is connected on the other side of the "pillars" for the extra track to accomodate the Newark Airport Rail Station. This track has catenary wiring.
Local Road multiple overpasses (finished construction) to connect to a major local road running alongside south of Newark Penn Station right next to the Hunters Connection for the Raritan Valley line trains.
A single track with white ties (without a wire) is used by a freight co. CONRAIL, CSX.
Also, TWO tracks with white ties can be found adjacent to Track 1 of the NEC around those new ramps. They join together in switches and quickly move into Track 1. I have never seen these tracks used before.
Those are the only overpass highway ramps I can think of that pass through the Newark area.
The HBLR project is divided into four Phases of construction. The first phase from Exchange place to.... (I don't know) is completed. NJT is working on Phase 2 which is scheduled to be completed by the end of this year. (1 year per phase).
For more details, I'll try to retrieve a link for you.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Please use "east" and "west". There is no north or south on NJTransit. RR East is toward NY and Hoboken, and RR West is toward Trenton and Port Jervis. If they used north and south, Hoboken bound trains from Trenton and Bay Head would be heading north while Hoboken bound trains from Port Jervis and Spring Valley would be heading south.
Heading west from Newark, after crossing the drawbridge, one encounters the following passenger lines:
Boonton
Main Line
Bergen County Line
...in that order.
The Boonton line is single track (second track present but disused) and has no connection at Secaucus to the NEC, passenger or otherwise.
The Main and Bergen lines encounter the NEC at each end of Secaucus Transfer station, but are no longer easily visible from NEC trains.
Sorry. I've been on NJT so many times, and I don't even notice on the check tickets that it's East and West, but for the sake of the actual compass directions....
By the way, which trackset are you talking about?
If you're referring to the three tracks equipped with catenary wires, (the one adjacent to I-280) those tracks are used by the Boonton, Gladstone, and the service which is now known as MidTown Direct.
No Main or Bergen lines here. They go upward towards upstate NY.
The sets of tracks divide into two sections of any train which travels within the Hoboken Division before/after the Bergen Tunnels.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I think you mean east from Newark, not west.
Also, there are a couple of changes in the works in the area you describe: the current Boonton line track is going to become inactive when the Montclair connection is complete and the Bergen County Line is being realligned to meet the Main Line north (west, if you insist) of the Transfer Station.
The ARC plan has the current Boonton Line track being made into a storage yard with a car wash.
Yes. That's true. However, the Montclair connection is somewhat closer to completion.
Does anyone have a track map of what’s there and what’s proposed?
John
Yes.
That isn't the easiest site to hunt around, so try this. I think it's the map you want.
No HBLR tracks are visible from the NEC. HBLR, including sections in operation or actively being built, runs from Bayonne to the Weehauken tunnel, all of it east of the Pallisade and the Hackensack River. The NEC enters its tunnel west of the Pallisade. Where the two cross each other, near Lincoln Harbor and the Helix, the HBLR is on the surface and the NEC is in the tunnel heading for the Hudson River.
I noticed on the MTA website that the V train will run the next Sunday, September 9. Is this the first time the V line is running?
As the "V," yes. It will be the first time the "F" and "V" run together in the same fashion they will run full-time beginning in November. The F will take 63rd St, the V 53rd St. The V will run local in Queens, the F express; both with run local in Manhattan.
This was talked about to death here on SubTalk a few days ago. It is simulated service required by a General Order. When regular V service commences in November, it is expected to operate M-F only.
What is the purpose of this simulated service?
Will trains be running on full weekday schedules? Even if so, passenger loads will be much lower than on weekdays.
I am fully aware that the passenger load will be lower on a Saturday for the simulated V service. They will, apparently, be running the full number of rush hour trainsets needed for the new schedule of the E/F/G/R V lines. As I previously stated, I am not part of the TA decision making process, however I am happy to report on what is going on.
It was a test. Many people were out there to gather information from the operation. What worked and what didn't.
"I noticed on the MTA website that the V train will run the next Sunday, September 9. Is this the first time the V line is running?"
Where on the MTA website did you see this? :) I couldn't seem to find it.
Go to:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnf.htm
It is the last item on th epage.
Thanx buddy. :)
The GO on the MTA web site says from 5 AM Saturday (Sept. 8) to 2 AM Sunday (Sept. 9).
In Microsoft Train simulator, when giving indications to start moving an electric train, it says:
"Wait for the current reading on the Ammeter to fall before advancing the throttle to the next higher position".
I know you have to start slowly in order to reduce slippage or strong forces applied to the train, but what is the relation of this with the ammeter reading?
And why does the ammeter reading falls?
PS Don´t you find it difficult in this game to apply and release the brakes with the mouse???
Use the keyboard! It's ; for release and ' for increase I think.
On old fashioned traction systems -- notably DC traction motors
wired pretty much straight to the generators, you have to watch
what you are doing because by putting the (diesel) engine throttle
on too high and allowing a too high current to flow, it will burn
out your traction motors or cause a flashover. In an EMU with
camshaft resistance control, this should never happen as the resistance
will regulate the current. However in an AC EMU equipped with DC
traction motors connected via tap-changing HT circuity, the same
thing can happen if you step up the notches too quickly. I am not
sure which type of traction system the MS simulator is trying to
emulate here...
Lexcie
P.S. I am posting frmo a Lynx browser, so if it looks weird thats why.
I recently returned from a trip to Washington, DC. Rode the Metro.Many of the escalators were not working. The stations and the trains were very clean. It's interesting that in Washington the subway exrtends to the suburbs of Maryland and Virginia.
I purchased a book called 25 years of the Washington Metro.It was being sold at the sales office at the Metro Center station.
Nothing new about the escalators not working
"It's interesting that in Washington the subway exrtends to the suburbs of Maryland and Virginia."
The Washington Metro was planned as more of a commuter system, to bring people in from the extended suburbs to the central area to work, than as a means of transit for close-by city residents. Such subway planning is very common in most newer American subway systems (post-50's).
San Francisco and D.C. run their subways very much like commuter rail lines.
A big reason is the expense of building these lines. The New York City subway alone would cost around $200 billion (or more) to replicate. Then there's PATH. The LIRR, Metro-North, NJ Transit, as necessary as they are, incredible luxuries compared to what other cities have.
Still, San Francisco does have a three-tier system: Muni, BART, and Caltrain. I've taken the commuter train connecting the Bay Area to Cupertino. Washington, in addition to Metrorail, has MARC and VRE trains serving it.
MARC, VRE?
IIRC, neither existed when the first segment of the Metro was opened.
You may be correct on the history. My point simply is that Washington does now have a subway+commuter rail service, though not the same type or configuration as NY's.
But the lack of other commuter rail services at the time may have influenced the design of the Metro.
VRE only goes to Fredericksburg and Manassas short distance, at least on MARC Brunswick Line it goes as far as Harpers Ferry and Martinsburg WV 80 miles away, and no midday or weekend service on either line
The escalators to the street that WMATA came up with when thy built the original system back in the mid-1970s was due to all of the deep tunnel stations the system had, but in many cases they did not put one single stairway in between the street and fare control areas, just three escalators and an ADA elevator.
While the idea may have looked good on paper -- one escalator could be repaired while the other two were in service -- it increased the system's future maintenance costs as the machinery began to show its age. Now, when you have two or all three escalators broken, they can still only work on fixing one at a time because you need an `up' broken escalator and a `down' broken one for the passengers to continue using. Combine that with the increasing passenger load of WMATA, and they would be better off tearing out some at least one of the three escalators at many of the downtown stations and putting stairs in.
Agreed. In addition, stairways usually include intermediate landings, which reduce the consequences of a fall - eg you will be less likely to tumble a long distance, and the landings provide a place to pause without worrying as much about loss of balance.
Two escalators and a stairway is not entirely unreasonable. It will eliminate the "2 up 1 down" or vice versa, peak direction, strategy during rush hours, though.
I believe that stairway landings are required by code.
How about building escalators with landings?
The WMATA may look at that as: Multiple escalators mean multiple sets of machinery, and more chances for break downs, higher maintenance etc.
Or maybe not. Maybe they would go for that.
How about one escalator that flattens out for, say, 3 to 5 feet at one or more points in the middle of its run?
Like a combination sidewalk escalator?
Actually, the purpose of a landing is to allow a pause - I'm not sure how one continuous escalator run would serve that.
I was thinking that pauses would be most important when the thing breaks down.
I was referring to something else. Refer back to my comment about landings (pause points in a way) on staircases.
Perhaps I have been unclear. I meant to suggest that if the escalator had flat segments in the middle, those flat segments could serve as stair landings (on which one could pause) at those times that the escalator had broken down.
Oh, I see. Yes, correct. However, this pause function would not be available to someone who suffered a loss of balance while the escalotor was in motion. I am not complaining about this, however. I like your general concept and wonder if WMATA would be willing to do it.
Another reason for stairway landings is that stairs are steeper than escalators, so in order for both to begin and end at the same place, landings are needed for the stairs.
Wider stairs could have solved that problem. Landings would not be needed, and it would be much safer to run up and down since one can take broader steps.
I find at least one broken escalator every time I ride, on average.
The one at Crystal City (the one from the mall level to the surface) is ALWAYS out of order!
wayne
At Friendship Hts., at least one is out every time on the way down to the trains (Western side).
You think that's bad? Try riding SEPTA.
Escalators/elevators serve more as decoration than anything else at virtually every station they're located at. Handicapped and elderly riders understandably have a real problem with this and have made sure SEPTA knows it, though they do precious little to show they're actually listening. At my home station, 63rd St, there is a sign in the token booth window naming all the stations with malfunctioning lift equipment. Of the handful of MFL station that even have them, Bridge and Pratt is the only one to regularly not be on the list.
Metro Center, Union Station there is always one out of order on every station, as to Septa, WAMTA is newer, should be in service at all times
You are sort of right. If SEPTA had their way, there would be NO escalators or elevators on the subways. It cost too much to keep them up. Plus people in Philly tend to use them for toilets, just like the subway steps.
Not all the people, just the lazy, the homeless and the ignorant. The first and last, though, effectively describe more than half the city's 1.4 million.
When in was in NYC saturday, every single escalator I rode was working!!
I have a copy of the book you mention. It has a good history of the system and lots of good pictures. I purchased mine thru the METRO
"gifts" section on the web.
Chuck Greene
When the NCS is lengthened, will there be a connection to NJT? I don't mean physical rail, just a transfer like at Newark, Penn Station.
No, the closest rail station is Watsessing Ave and it is about a 4-5 block walk up Bloomfield Ave.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Actually Watsessing Ave Station is on Watsessing Ave, not Bloomfield Avenue. From Grove Street NCS Station walk northest along Grove and turn left onto Watsessing at the first corner. Then walk west on Watsessing, cross Bloomfield, and continue two more l-o-n-g blocks.
It's quite a hike.
I know this I was born and raised in Bloomfield, I ment that it was a few block walk up Bloomfield Ave not including the part about turning onto Watsessing.
Sorry for confusion
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Second time I have gotten a eailfan window on a r62. Is this more common. I ver seldon ride the IRT
Only on the 3 will you find this...
Yes it eas on the 3 line. Why is that.
The 3 only runs 9 car trains, thus they need singles. Some 3 trains how have one 5 car set from the Pelham line plus 4 singles. In addition, the singles were left for 11 car operation of the 7, once the R62As make it over there.
FYI: The cars on the 3 are R62As, not R62s. R62s are on the 4.
Thanks for the clarifcation.
I thought I read here that the 3 was to begin running ten-car trainsets after Labor Day. Labor Day ended about ten minutes ago. If the rumor is fact, say goodbye to that railfan window.
The little cab window is annoying but at least it's not fuzzed up like on the other transverse cabs.
As long as there are single R62A cars on the #3 line there will be a railfan window. Some single cars will be kept so they can be transfered to the #7 line to provide the 11th car and also a pool of single R62A's must be kept in "mainline" service to provide a pool of cars for the Grand Central shuttle.
The new pick starts in mid Nov. and from what I hear that is when the 3 will be running 10 cars.
Does anyone have any info, track plans, or other pertinent info on the Southern New Jersey LRT line from Trenton to Camden? NJT is keeping this a big secret from everybody. They won`t post any info on their web sites, or put any promotional material anywhere, unlike the HBLRT, which got a lot of hype during construction. I would appreciate it if anyone can pry some info about this.
Check the SubTalk archives. chuchubob has posted quite a bit of information on the subject, including routes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is my extensive collection of slow-loading photos of construction progress at various locations. Click on the sub-headings near the top of the page for different sets of photos.
The HQ for the line is in Riverside in the building next to the light rail car mock-up and the people there are thrilled to talk about the line with anybody who's interested. They also have several give-away brochures. There's no secret about it fromtheir standpoint.
Is NJT building and running this line itself or have they contracted it out like HBLR?
I think they contracted it out. To who IDK, but I think Adtranz, at the time(Bombardier). I could be totally wrong...
Cleanairbus
It's DBOM (design - build - operate - maintain); contracted out. I disremember to whom it is contracted out.
I believe Bechtel is the DBOM contractor. I haven't seen anything on track layout, etc. The colorful brochures provide nice maps of the line. As far as progress, it's slow, but the sunken bridge has been raised and much of the west side of downtown Camden is a big mess with street/track work.
Heading out of town again, look forward to speaking with all of you again next week.
For those interested, I did update my website today.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
www.orenstransitpage.com
I had the opportunity today (Labor Day) to make a short visit to Rockhill Furnace, and ride two of the trolleys to the new end of the line.
My wife and I were the only two passengers on the first trip on Johnstown (PA) #311. The two man crew gave us a great tour. 311's compressor and motor sounds reminded me a lot of those of the old BU's in Brooklyn.
Our second trip was on York (PA) #163, which had recently been restored. There were twelve other passengers on this trip so we did not have the advantage of all of the personal attention.
The new 3000 foot extension is now in service, and it now feels like more of a full trolley ride.
The neighboring East Broad Top RR was completely closed down even though it was Labor Day of a holiday weekend.
We talked to a half dozen or more of the volunteers at RTM, and everyone went out of their way to make sure that we enjoyed our visit.
The RTM and the EBT are really out in the country, which seems to keep the numbers of visitors down, but the new extension to the trolley line makes the trip worthwhile.
Does anyone know when the original Bronx Zoo terminus was demolished? Did that happen when the line was extended to White Plains starting in 1917 or was the stub terminal still operating later than that?
Originally, the Dyre Avenue line terminated at the old NYW&B 180th Street station. I assume it was an extra-fare connection when the line was taken over around 1940. When was the flyover link made to the 180th Street station?
Does anyone know when the original Bronx Zoo terminus was demolished? Did that happen when the line was extended to White Plains starting in 1917 or was the stub terminal still operating later than that?
4 Aug 1952
Originally, the Dyre Avenue line terminated at the old NYW&B 180th Street station. I assume it was an extra-fare connection when the line was taken over around 1940.
It was a free transfer.
When was the flyover link made to the 180th Street station?
3 May 1957
Q: When was the flyover link made to the 180th Street station?
A: 3 May 1957
Interesting to note that even though through service to Manhattan (initially on the '2' train) began in 1957, the platforms along the Dyre Ave. branch were not extended until the early 60s, so at all stations (except Pelham Parkway) only the front half of the train opened (like at South Ferry today).
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks for the responses. One further question: when the White Plains Road line was extended to 180th Street and beyond, was there still a switch and service to the Zoo terminus, or did the new tracks totally bypass the Zoo stub, essentially abandoning it until it was demolished in '52?
A few months ago I traveled to London, and was quite impressed with the highly-developed intracity rail network. One of the most interesting features there is a high-speed express train that runs from Heathrow Airport to Paddington Station in central London. I wondered, would it be feasible to build such a train from JFK Airport to Penn Station? It could conceivably run along the IND Rockaway Line from near the current Howard Beach/JFK station and then along various other lines straight into Penn Station. As an express train, it obviously would not stop at elevated and subway stations en route; it would be powered by the subway's third rail, and could run at speeds up to 50 mph in some points. Most European and many Asian airports have trains from the main airport to the central city now, and it would seem like the dawn of a new era if New York could receive such a system.
That has been talked about from time to time not just on this board
but elsewhere too. The problem here is that the Port Authority
owns the airport and the MTA owns the subway, whilst Amtrak owns
all the tracks. Don't forget London's Stansted and Heathrow scheme
were both planned when British Rail and British Airports Authority
owned everything. As for JFK, you will have heard of the case of
the Airtrain which shows the total lack of planning on the part of
the Port Authority. It would seem this is a truly sad case of
provincialism going too far (I mean the NY/NJ rivalry) in the USA.
Usually that kind of protectionist phenomenon is seen more in Europe
than in the USA, but I guess in NY region the population has reached
the traditional "European" levels when people are beginnnig to
squabble over who gets the "business" instead of helpnig one another
like Americans haev traditionally done. It's a shame.
Lexcie,
You are certainly correct that having one jurisdiction (eg one agency, as well as owning all needed ROW, is very helpful to building a unified transit system. That's true of any line, not just one to the airport.
However, your comments about the Port Authority are quite a bit off the mark, and not based on reality. There is plenty of stuff in the archives about AirTrain, and I encourage you to read it.
New York's AirTrain-LIRR-subway hybrid came about not just because of different system or land ownership. It came about because MTA and PA funds represent different budgets, doled out and usable under different rules. If there is "blame" to be assigned (and I do not believe there is), the City of New York, the MTA and the PA would all share in it. The original AirTrain plan, to be developed all the way to a 59th Street terminal, cost much more than the PA and the MTA could afford together, given competition of projects and the many pressing priorities in the agencies' capital plans. The alternatives offered to the AirTrain plan as subsequently built looked good on paper, but had neither political backing from the city or state, nor could be accomplished without substantial taking of property.
What we are left with is an adequate plan which provides much more than we had previously (which was nothing) and leaves the door open to future development.
I noticed from David Greenburger's archive post that he proposes to make the Airtrain a part of the subway system. I think perhaps we're at split purposes here -- the Airtrain looks like a scheme which seeks to extort $ from airport users (not necessarily a bad thing, and certainly is the case on British Rail in that trains serving the airport often surcharge much more above the locals that go to nearly the same location). David proposes making it like Chicago O'Hare where the airport is an integrated subway system. The more I read about the Airtrain scheme and its transfers and that sort of stuff, the more I wonder if its real purpose is to turn that bottleneck into a cash cow. Although the institutional divide between the MTA and the PA may be problematic and their funds may be escrowed under particular rules, couldn't they have worked out a mechanism whereby each party contributed a % of costs for a % of ownership? For example, say we decide to connect the Airtrain to the subway with cheap fares, if MTA couldn't afford it alone, surely PA could use their funds and have MTA run their trains to the airport under trackage rights? Again, if we decided to make Airport a commuter rail stop, if MTA couldn't afford it then PA could again invest and realize its returns through trackage rights agreement. I don't know if bureaucratic red tapes is the reason why the PA did not pursue any of those reasonable (and customer-transparent) alternatives, but my dialogue with a friend from NJ suggests that PA had been acting like the "bad boy" in that region because neither NY state nor NJ state could totally control its actions. Whether he is correct or not remains to be seen, but I found it difficult to fault his argument.
There is a way to do some integration: the PA is considering running hybrid cars which will transfer onto LIRR tracks and be able to run into Penn Station. This will become a realistic option once East Side Access is completed and commuter rail track capacity under the East River is increased by 50%.
Dave spends a lot of verbiage on problems that don't exist. I am not opposed to integrating subway and airport service. But Atlanta's experience with MARTA and the separate terminal shuttle trains shows clearly that transferring per se doesn't deter anyone: the trains are full arriving at the airport, regardless of the kinds of bags carried or anything else. Newark Airport will have a similar service opening this month, including baggage checkin at the shuttle transfer station.
In the end, it won't matter which way it was accomplished. The two most important advantages are 1) it was built without using general tax funds or MTA bonds 2) it was actually built, which in NY is important. Details like how much fare is charged are easy to adjust based on ridership demand.
A lot of people in NY love to say "that plan (whatever that plan is) is garbage; use mine, it's the only one." They also like to ignore the political landscape, which is convenient and makes them look pure.
The PA got a vital project done, addressed critics adequately, got politicians to step into line, saved us a bunch of tax dollars, and prevented the airlines from pocketing the money themselves on pet projects not benefitting mass transit. They even got 90 million bucks to local, minority firms to work on the project (I used one of those firms myself to deal with a rodent problem in my house). That's not counting other minor considerations, like Rockaway Blvd reconstruction, the new York College and Aviation High School programs.
All this together is a staggering achievement. Not perfect, because some of the criticism leveled is understandable. But what achievements do the more strident critics have to point to: Editorials, posts on Subtalk, a lot of hot air (I guess in the winter that's pretty good - saves on the heating bill). Not to mention that if you told one of them "Let's see you do it," many wouldn't stand a snowflake's chance in hell of getting anything done.
In the end, it won't matter which way it was accomplished. The two most important advantages are 1) it was built without using general tax funds or MTA bonds 2) it was actually built, which in NY is important.
It is amazing how quickly work has progressed on AirTrain. Who knows, maybe MTA management will get jealous of the Port Authority's competence and will make sure that the next major subway expansion project will get completed in reasonable time.
Yes, indeed. Hope springs eternal...
it was actually built, which in NY is important.
That's the big, enourmous advantage of the project. It's actually getting built! A new section of rail transit is actually getting built! In only a few years! You suppose the PA could work some of that magic in extending subway service to eastern Queens? Nah, I guess not.
:-) Andrew
Not by itself. But you could, in combination with and/or leading others. How badly do you want it?
My first instinct was to sigh and resign myself to the fact that we were going to go at this AirTrain debate again. I personally don't think David and I will ever see eye-to-eye on the matter.
My assertion is that AirTrain is a separate system, and should be maintained as a separate system, because it serves a different purpose than the MTA's rapid transit.
As you can see in the post below, I argue that the design intent of
AirTrain is two-fold:
1) To circulate passengers within the airport, and
2) Connect passengers with transportation points outside the airport.
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/starchives.cgi?read=215000:215964
Neither of these purposes requires a one seat ride, and as far as I'm concerned, nobody has ever offered one iota of proof to contradict the Port Authority's planning studies that concluded a one-seat ride was not necessary for construction.
However, I will go on the record as saying that an excess transfer fair is unwarranted, and that there should be either a free transfer to AirTrain with MetroCard, or a standard extra fare (another $1.50, like going from PATH to NYCT).
Saying nobody will use AirTrain because it isn't a one-seat ride is like saying nobody will use PATH to get to midtown because after 34th Street, you have to transfer.
MATT-2AV
Thameslink (who together with Gatwick Express and Connex SouthCentral) serves Gatwick Airport in London. Thameslink advertises itself as the only carrier to offer a one-seat ride into downtown. Despite the slower journey time, locals usually use the Thameslink service. The tourists, on the other hand, head for the Gatwick Express just because it looks good and is supposedly an "express" service that charges a premium fare, although it is only some 5 mins faster than the fastest Connex train.
In the same way that stupid businessmen will pay to ride on the Acela, stupid people will pay to ride on Gatwick Express and the Airtrain. There are always cheaper local airport transit alternatives (for example, taking SWT to Farnham and transferring there for Heathrow instead of using the Heathrow Express). I am afraid with the way the Port Authority are handling things, the AirTrain will become the rich's choice bad-value, high-sleek-factor transportation, and the smart and the locals will continue to use MTA and the shuttle bus (assuming that PA continues to operate that bus).
"In the same way that stupid businessmen will pay to ride on the Acela, stupid people will pay to ride on Gatwick Express and the Airtrain. There are always cheaper local airport transit alternatives (for example, taking SWT to Farnham and transferring there for Heathrow instead of using the Heathrow Express). I am afraid with the way the Port Authority are handling things, the AirTrain will become the rich's choice bad-value, high-sleek-factor transportation, and the smart and the locals will continue to use MTA and the shuttle bus (assuming that PA continues to operate that bus)."
Personally, I don't see what's wrong with that. If people want to use the sleeker yet more expensive route, that is their choice. The one factor you are leaving out is the comfort associated with rail service. Do you feel that people are stupid for buying first class tickets? It's the same plane, just more comfortable to those who can afford it. If no one would pay for first class seats, then there simply wouldn't be any. The same applies here. If people refuse to pay for AirTrain because it is too expensive, then the Port Authority will be pressured to lower fares. And who told you how much an AirTrain ride will cost anyway? I don't even think that has been finalized. What if there could be a free transfer?
And you must be more specific about your criticism of the Port Authority’s handling of the situation. What do you mean by the way they handling it? You mean actually getting a massive elevated transit line constructed along a major highway that runs through densely populated neighborhoods?
I’m curious as to what you would have proposed, for the same construction cost?
Listen, I would like nothing more than a direct AirTrain link to midtown. I have long advocated for an inclusive yet separate AirTrain system; one that runs from Jamaica to LaGuardia and from Jamaica to midtown, presumably through another East River tube, with major transit connections all along the way. But for the same reason I don't own my own corporate jet, this just isn't going to be. You speak of alternatives, but right now, AirTrain is the alternative to nothing -- and the Port Authority got the job done.
Remember that AirTrain serves two purposes. Even if there is initially low ridership on the link to Howard Beach, it will accomplish the much-needed goal of circulating passengers within the airport. It is often that other railfans oversee that crucial point. Let the Port Authority worry about what to charge, at least we have something that was accomplished with the limited transit funds available in this country.
MATT-2AV
Before you slam AirTrain please make a Bus Fan trip to JFK about 8pm from Union Turnpike on the Q10 to terminal 4 then come back on the 3 bus to 169st.
Do this Before AirTrain goes into service and relieves those line.
Actually, I did precisely that -- when I flew into JFK. I vowed never to fly into JFK again and instead choose to fly to Newark NJ.
Lexcie
And it costs you at least $10 to get there so when AirTrain is working you agrue against your own point by taking the more expensive slick way to an airport.
Really living in Manhattan, Newark is the sane persons choice and if you are a psycho cheapskate you take the IKEA bus there and walk. The only free one seat ride to the airport. People do do it!
Actually, I do not argue against my own point since my usual
destination in the USA after arriving in a New York airport is not
Manhattan. It is mroe usually Boston, Washington, or Philadelphia.
The reason I use a Newark is because if you are flying from an
European provincial city, flights to all those places are usually
expensive and a pain, involving multiple transfers. I take the bus
frmo Newark to Newark Penn Station, then I enjoy the ride on Amtrak.
Usually, the overall cost comes out cheaper then doing the multiple
transfer job. I agree that this is not exactly the typical use
of New York's JFK airport, but I fail to understand why the American
population do not boycott JFK airport. Even after the AirTrain,
flynig into Newark and then taking the $4.00 bus to Penn Station and
hopping on a $2.80 NJTransit train is still cheaper than takign the
Airtrain to Jamaica and then paying the LIRR fare into downtown.
I acknowledge that I've just outlined a stupid argument, though.
You can hop an E train for a $1.50. Late at night the E homelss are less scary than the A homeless.
The Buses are the worse option to the airport.. Try the M60. It's so bad, I avoid it by using JFK most of the time. And I live about 10-15 minutes from the Airport by car.
N/W Broadway Lines
Astoria
I AGREE
I am pretty sure the PA will not continue to run the free shuttle bus after the (not-free) AirTrain to Howard Beach opens. Airport service for $1.50 will consist of only the Q10, B15, etc. buses.
That's a reasonable expectation, but not 100% certain.
That's a reasonable expectation, but not 100% certain.
Actually, it's the plan of record.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Read my thoughts on the matter, along with a hearty discussion, from the archives.
I don't agree with your specific plan (at least not right now, as a basic service) but I do agree that what's currently under construction is a mistake.
And, naturally, I will contend that a lot of the justification from that post (the Q and A) is based on false premises (esp. about the LIRR). The most I would be prepared to go is to say that even if the Howard Beach leg were possible to do as you say, the Jamaica leg was still crucial.
You've said that already. I see no need to repeat our very long discussion. I've provided a link; interested readers can read it and, should they so choose, comment here.
I read your post on AirTrain and it has one big omitted fact. The money from the $3 fee was an FAA thing and that was specifically done in a way that local governements could not get their mitts on it. Some politicians in NYC saw a way to fund the Second ave via the back door and the FAA balked.
As implemented the Airtrain has much lower operating cost than a subway. One tower, no T/O, no SA's no C/O's just CSR's.
The fare will be 1.50 or whatever a token costs at the time. At least that is what I was told when I interviewed there.
The biggest users will probably be airport workers who mostly live up near Kew Gardens and Jamaica so they can get to either airport and LI people. The biggest winners are people who have to transfer between terminals at JFK or even btween JFK and LGA (it will shave time).
This is found money, expecting it to solve a problem that the local government had ignored for decades is unrealistic.
Plusses as it is not part of the MTA, running it is by 5 year contract. Can you imagine, service sucks send in your own bid to run it.
Personally I think Union Turnpike would have made a better transfer point. In your post you neglected to mention that the E and J are there too.
The biggest users will probably be airport workers who mostly live up near Kew Gardens and Jamaica so they can get to either airport and LI people.
According to the DEIS, the biggest use (from outside the airport) will come from the long term and employee parking lots.
Touche!
The biggest use from Jamaica will be airport workers.
I read your post on AirTrain and it has one big omitted fact. The money from the $3 fee was an FAA thing and that was specifically done in a way that local governements could not get their mitts on it. Some politicians in NYC saw a way to fund the Second ave via the back door and the FAA balked.
I addressed that in question 13.
As implemented the Airtrain has much lower operating cost than a subway. One tower, no T/O, no SA's no C/O's just CSR's.
But there is also substantial overhead in operating an independent system, maintaining an extra station and transfer point (those elevators at Howard Beach had better not break down!), etc.
The fare will be 1.50 or whatever a token costs at the time. At least that is what I was told when I interviewed there.
That's not the number that's been posted here. Still, why should there be a double fare to the airport but not, say, to the bus station?
The biggest users will probably be airport workers who mostly live up near Kew Gardens and Jamaica so they can get to either airport and LI people. The biggest winners are people who have to transfer between terminals at JFK or even btween JFK and LGA (it will shave time).
Isn't that a shame? The system could be popular among many of the New Yorkers who take cabs to the airport, but in its current implementation that seems most unlikely.
This is found money, expecting it to solve a problem that the local government had ignored for decades is unrealistic.
Why can't the found money be used where it would have the greatest benefit?
Plusses as it is not part of the MTA, running it is by 5 year contract. Can you imagine, service sucks send in your own bid to run it.
Interesting point, but since just about anyone who rides the AirTrain to Howard Beach will be transferring to the subway, does it mean much?
Personally I think Union Turnpike would have made a better transfer point. In your post you neglected to mention that the E and J are there too.
I explicitly mentioned the E/J/Z transfer at Jamaica, although my post dealt primarily with the Howard Beach transfer.
>I addressed that in question 13.
Saying it and getting it are two differnt things. Like nobody else thought of this and tried to fight for this. The FEDs said no and the Airports have more say with the PA and a renewable contract than they would with the MTA.
>That's not the number that's been posted here. Still, why should >there be a double fare to the airport but not, say, to the bus >station?
Why should it be free within the terminals, it's the FAA's baby not the MTA's. I guess those sneaky Canadians lied to me or were misinformed. I intervied in Decemer 2000 and that was the fare they quoted.
>Isn't that a shame? The system could be popular among many of the >New Yorkers who take cabs to the airport, but in its current >implementation that seems most unlikely.
Isn't it a shame that people in Northern Queens and Long Island get a bone that Manhattanites can't gnaw on.
Something like a quarter of travellers are on business and get cabs or limos already and are not likely to change. Anyone that is more than a few blocks from the subway station will either keep taking a cab or if the schlep all their cases around not be fazed by an extra transfer point.
>But there is also substantial overhead in operating an independent >system, maintaining an extra station and transfer point (those >elevators at Howard Beach had better not break down!), etc.
Everyone gets paid SHIT, SHIT SHIT SHIT. They staff a train for about one fourth of what the TA does. If this was a TA operation there would be a few extra P/R people to cut checks and distribute them etc. P/R clerks at airtrain gets paid SHIT.
And the TA is the worst offender, seperate crew offices numbers for each title and divison. Private line busses, etc.
>Why can't the found money be used where it would have the greatest >benefit?
Because it is not MTA money. Remember the Westway trade off we got crappy highway AND crappy subways. The state would cut the operating subsidy to match whatever the FAA forked over.
>Interesting point, but since just about anyone who rides the >AirTrain to Howard Beach will be transferring to the subway, does it
>mean much?
Sure it means that people will use it. Although I have been told Logterm parking will be the big destination in another post.
>I explicitly mentioned the E/J/Z transfer at Jamaica, although my >post dealt primarily with the Howard Beach transfer.
Riding the A to the J to the E is a nightmare East NY is not luggage or people friendly. Also cabs won't even take you if you are from Queens. Late at night this is a problem when the cab stands are closed. Jamaica also gives access to the Q44 to Flushing and the Bronx with only one transfer.
"The fare will be 1.50 or whatever a token costs at the time. At least that is what I was told when I interviewed there.
That's not the number that's been posted here. Still, why should there be a double fare to the airport but not, say, to the bus station?"
David,
I seriously doubt that any of the numbers previously posted here are accurate. I sensed a lot of speculation and hearsay, and the fare is subject to change. Does anyone have a source on these numbers?
The Port Authority would have used planning numbers, but in the end, the fare will be set at whatever they feel they can get away with and maintain ridership.
As for why there should be an AirTrain fare? That's simple: to cover the cost of construction and operation. Where else would the money come from? For the record, I do advocate a free NYCT to AirTrain transfer, if the funds are available.
I also disagree that construction and operation costs would be lower if the system were connected. NYCT couldn't get the JFK train-to-plane to work correctly. From what I gather, it was an operational headache, and it just stopped at one terminus. With the added operational complexity of making stops at each terminal plus the elaborate routing of AirTrain, I seriously doubt the situation would improve.
We've also had the discussion on how construction costs are lower for a separate system.
MATT-2AV
Nicely argued, Matt.
I think the jfk exp should be back in service with its on fare or some one should use the redbirds ( IF THEY R STILL AROUND BUY SOME OR RENT THEM>......I HAVENT BEEN IN THE CITY SINCE 97 ,,..... and start their own system. Maybe on their old track? :(
john
i think maybe it's a good idea. considering i never did that run befor.
what do you think
Um, the Redbirds are Division A stock. The JFK express ran on Division B rails.
Jump the gap with your suitcases!
Watch out for the trip-arms on the wrong side!
Yes!!!!
John
The TA was asked that question recently and declined to support the idea due to the A trains increased use of the express track.
I seriously doubt that any of the numbers previously posted here are accurate. I sensed a lot of speculation and hearsay, and the fare is subject to change. Does anyone have a source on these numbers?
My source is earlier posts on this board, from a year ago or more. They may be inaccurate but they're the only numbers I've seen at all.
I do think it's clear from the PA's web page that the fare will be greater than $0. That means that the city that so proudly eliminated the two-fare zone a few years ago will soon be reintroducing it.
The Port Authority would have used planning numbers, but in the end, the fare will be set at whatever they feel they can get away with and maintain ridership.
Do you think the TA should set fares similarly? (That's not a rhetorical question. I'd like to learn if you treat a line to the airport as something fundamentally diffeernt from a line to anywhere else. I don't.)
As for why there should be an AirTrain fare? That's simple: to cover the cost of construction and operation. Where else would the money come from?
I don't know. Where should the money come from for the 63rd Street connection? Where should the money come from for the 2nd Avenue line, if it's ever built?
For the record, I do advocate a free NYCT to AirTrain transfer, if the funds are available.
Do you advocate a free transfer to the 63rd Street connection only on condition that the funds are available?
I also disagree that construction and operation costs would be lower if the system were connected. NYCT couldn't get the JFK train-to-plane to work correctly. From what I gather, it was an operational headache, and it just stopped at one terminus. With the added operational complexity of making stops at each terminal plus the elaborate routing of AirTrain, I seriously doubt the situation would improve.
The JFK Express failed because it was essentially the A train (skipping a few stops in Brooklyn but still getting stuck behind other trains making those stops) for a premium fare. I don't think there were any operational problems; the service just didn't offer much that wasn't available for the standard subway fare.
I don't think it's right to force potentially hundreds of passengers trying to get to JFK to transfer at Howard Beach so the TA and PA don't have to sit down and figure out how to supply an integrated service.
We've also had the discussion on how construction costs are lower for a separate system.
And I can't see how that could possibly be the case. The Howard Beach AirTrain station alone is surely very expensive, and with through service it wouldn't even exist.
I'll never understand the TA. The decision making process blows my mind.
For months, residents of Queens have been forced to endure unnecessary reroutings, and track closings, all in the name of "track work". Yet, I have yet to see any signs of track work taking place. Not a worker. Not a work train. Maybe there is some kind of track work taking place, and I always miss seeing any sign of it. Maybe not. Either way, it's clear that the TA is closing the express track between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt unnecessarily.
Aside from the express track closing, here is something I just don't understand:
For the last year, there have been constant GO's on the Queens Blvd lines. The most common weekend GO had the following;
F 179-Coney Island via 63rd connector
R Jamaica Center- 95th Brooklyn via 60th tunnel
E no service
2 trains= 2 tunnels Simple enough? Not for the advanced minds of the TA.
During the past two weekends, only one tunnel was being used to connect Queens Blvd trains to Manhattan. The 63rd tunnel.
The TA's response? Increase service! Run three trains. E, F, R, all in one tunnel.
The result? You guessed it. 15, 20, 25 minutes delays going into the city. It was sickening all weekend. Not just for the passengers, but employees too. Some told me that the long delays cut into their breaks. Some told me that it would cause unwanted OT. Either way, no one gains from this.
It scares me to know that someone in the decision making process at the TA is so stupid.
I am going to contact the Straphangers organization about this constant mess in Queens. I am also contacting several journalists who like to write "favorable" columns about the TA.
Hopefully, someone with authority over the genius minds who created two weekends of unnecessary delays, will prevent similar problems in the future, whether it be the result of complaints from the Straphangers organization, or unfavorable media coverage.
But judging from what I see, it's all going to get alot worse before it gets better. A once great system has turned into a cesspool of imcompetence.
That's incompetence. Sorry for the spelling error.
See what being a constant victim of the city does to you?
I do wonder why the TA has been running the E, F, and R all through 63rd. Wouldn't it make more sense to cancel the E and extend the R, as has been done most other weekends?
But to be fair, I've been through Queens a few times this weekend and last and I didn't encounter any delays.
At least your diversions are posted -- all over the place, on nice, large, glossy signs. Look what happened to the W.
Honestly, the delays were horrible at various points both weeekends, and many TA personnel agreed with me too.
I don't deny it. I'm just pointing out that they weren't in place all day. I guess I was just lucky.
There has been a lot of electrical work going on at Queens Plaza during the last couple of weeks. They are hooking up new signals and are closing Queens Plaza interlocking in favor of Queensboro Plaza interlocking. Frankly, I since the E was running with the F in both directions all the way thru Queens to W.4th St., I was just kind of curious why the R & E services weren't combined like they have been in then past in order to cut down on the congestion..........Disclaimer: I am a NYCT employee and have nothing to do with the decision making process.
Are both these interlockings below ground on the main line?
No, IINM, the new one is in a little corrogated metal shack at the west end of the Queensboro Plaza Station, up on the El. (He's talking about the control machines rather than the track switches.)
Thanks. I need that explanation!
The GO combining E&R lines was a disaster. I had one trip PAE to 95th but so many E and R crews complained. Some R crews had two trip plus deadhead time and many screwed up the early report or complained about the deadhead or the extra work and the TA tried to change the report location for R crews to PAE to save some $$ and that went over like a lead ballon. The E crews were equally stinky about it Personally I would prefer 2 to 95th than 3 to Whitehall but lots of complaints (I picked the E not the R). There were lots of ABD's and there were fights about that.
Plus I think they wanted to use this to test the connector with a rush hour level of traffic.
ABD's? What are those?
ABDs are abandoned trains in TA speak.
Peace,
ANDEE
Many thanks.
The final service plan will have only the F running through 63rd Street. It will not have to merge with the R as it did this past weekend.
But in practice it will as a few R's a week will go thru to relieve whatever problems come up during the rush. The weekend Day serice was almost a perfect simulation E&F weekend service is close to F rush service and you threw in the R service to simulate a re route total 18-23 tph in the connector.
How will R's be able to use the connector with Q's terminating at 57th? This weekend the Q was cut back to 42nd to make room for the R.
The same way they have been doing it when things blow up. They do it now just not with something else running up via 6th at the same time to add to the confusion.
Usually only 3-4 trains are involved before things go back to normal. And it helps to prevent massive gaps going back the other way.
Again, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean something is not being done. Perhaps they are rewireing the signal system. Maybe they're working in the tunnel the express tracks run through that's seperate from the local tracks. Maybe they're working on the express side of the platform, and need to block the tracks.
This is the 5th or 6th time you've posted the exact same complaint, and guess what? The answer never changes.
-Hank
Thanks for a very funny (if uninformed) post.
You mean to tell us there are columnists who actually like the subway?
Uninformed? Explain yourself. How many delays on the Queens corridor have you been in in the last few weeks? If I actually witnessed everything I am posting, why am I uninformed?
none
I don't deny your delays. I do think it's ridiculous to try to look out a train window and complain that you don't "see" what the TA is working on. Next time, why not call ahead and demand that a flagman have a big sign that says "Look over here! This is what we're working on!"
I must have ridden the Northern Blvd. express tracks on the E and F a few thousand times. I didn't see them place the switches for the 63rd St Connector. Heavens! Does that mean they're not there?
Find something else to worry about...
Look, when you ride the trains EVERYDAY, and see no sign any track workers, or work trains, then what other conclusion would one draw?
I think you're a professional websurfer, who will post about anything, just for the sake of posting. God, judging from your presense on this site, you must be devoting a minimum of 8 hours a day. Maybe more.
Maybe I'm not the one who should find something else to worry about.
Sometimes it isn't track work that causes a track to go out of service. It could be signal work, repairs to the tower interlocking machine, work outside on the street or, as was the case this weekend, bringing a new tower online. Unfortunately, you can't always see this work.
Some of this work is deep in the tunnel when there is a GO or in a relay room and needs a GO to hookup new circuits to old etc.
The confines of those under-river tubes are the last place I'd want to work.Especially those Steinway tubes. I wouldn't want to get stuck down there. Actually in big blackout of 1965 there was a 7 train stuck in the Steinway tubes and people had to be escorted out of the tunnels. Also many spent the night in a train stuck in the 60th street tube. Boy what a frightening experience. The blackout must've been something to experience. Hopefully things today are much better and that won't happen again. If it does lets hope I'm not in the city!
Track workers have it rough, they work in terrible conditions and keep our subways running, they deserve alot more credit instead of complaints.
That happened to be an Express train. I had stayed after school for a bowling club meeting. Got to the 7 platform, just as a local pulled out. An express came next. While waiting for the next local, a TS bound train in the station had the lights go out, but the platform was lit. The Flushing local coasted in with no lights. Got the doors opened. We all got on and waited. Then the platform went dark. Eventually rumors flew that there was a blackout upstairs. We were led out by workers with flashlights and smokers with cigarette lighters.
Waited on the uptown side of 5th Ave for two hours to get on a #15 to Jackson Heights. Finally took a s/b 15 to 23rd st and waited for it to turn around.
So I guess the city didn't go out at once but sections failed like "dominos". According to an aircheck of Dan Ingram on WABC 770 at the time, the records started slowing and studio lights dimming before power was lost.
I guess some trains can coast into a stations, but in a power failure don't the trip arms go up, thus a train will go into BIE when it passes one. So if you're on an N train going 50mph downhill into the 60th street tube and power goes out. If trip arms go up than the train will get stuck, whereas if they don't the train will be able to "coast" to the next station? IN actuality the grade of 60th is so steep it probably wouldn't have enough momentum on the uphill. My guess is to prevent accidents when signal power is lost trip arms go up. Correct me if I'm wrong.
My guess is to prevent accidents when signal power is lost trip arms go up.
You are correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For months, residents of Queens have been forced to endure unnecessary reroutings, and track closings, all in the name of "track work". Yet, I have yet to see any signs of track work taking place. Not a worker. Not a work train. Maybe there is some kind of track work taking place, and I always miss seeing any sign of it.
Good point. The only difference that I have visually seen from those "track works" and postings is that the T/A has painted the entire exterior n/b wall of Lexington Av. - 53rd St. with WHITE paint. Other than that, the T/A must have been rewiring some signals and Queens Plaza was closed too.
One other thing, I have seen construction workers drill, "peck", and hammer a section of a track switch near Queens Plaza. I observed this keenly as we were passing by them slowly on an E train to Manhattan. But other "track work" which is associated and maintained by the T/A is "intangible", or which cannot be seen or felt physically.
Either way, it's clear that the TA is closing the express track between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt unnecessarily.
I have experienced trouble with this too. Every time we arrive Queens Plaza from Manhattan, I am always in doubt if the E that I'm riding on will go express or local. For the past few weekends, (before the 2 weekend 63rd St.) the E and F have been using the express rails very well. But from another SubTalker, he reported that the T/A is rewiring every signal in the express tunnel to be set for the "Queens master". Whatsoever that is, I guess I'll have to comply with it.
During the past two weekends, only one tunnel was being used to connect Queens Blvd trains to Manhattan. The 63rd tunnel.
The TA's response? Increase service! Run three trains. E, F, R, all in one tunnel.
The result? You guessed it. 15, 20, 25 minutes delays going into the city. It was sickening all weekend. Not just for the passengers, but employees too. Some told me that the long delays cut into their breaks. Some told me that it would cause unwanted OT. Either way, no one gains from this.
I agree that it could cause some congestion because of this. (Un)fortunately, we took the Flushing line through the Steinway tubes to get to Queens from Manhattan instead, because we were late for church. I think it would've been a good thing to avoid the 63rd St. tunnel disaster, well maybe I could pop in a few memories or so.
The Flushing line is the most undisrupted line that runs from Manhattan to Queens. I think it's the best choice. although they still have those W/F and MainLine Redbirds which go squeaky squeaky when they start. Construction is minimal on this elevated stretch.
It scares me to know that someone in the decision making process at the TA is so stupid.
Don't blame them. Every New Yorker, visitor, including you, are lucky enough that the IRT, IND, and BMT rail co.'s ever built the Subway back in 1880 in the first place, and the MTA taking over the whole thing to maintain it and fix it and such.
I know the T/A has been thinking up plans out of the Milky Way Galaxy, but what have we citizens to handle it? Just flow with the process. It won't last forever, although I have a feeling the construction will be literally never ending. I was hoping for a time that ALL of the subway lines in NY had NO SERVICE ADVISORIES at all.
PLEASE NOTE: If you think the MTA is .... ..[I shouldn't be impolite but....."(whack)", take a look at MTA's website at the Capital Program page. You'll find startling information on dates which date forward into 2016 and 2020 FOR UPDATING AND MAINTAINING RAIL SHOPS, YARDS, AND REWIRING (updating) SIGNALS for the MTA!!!!!!!
I'll end it here.. .
Best luck to you from,
Railfan Pete.
Don't blame them. Every New Yorker, visitor, including you, are lucky enough that the IRT, IND, and BMT rail co.'s ever built the Subway back in 1880 in the first place, and the MTA taking over the whole thing to maintain it and fix it and such.
I think it's time for Pete to enroll in Subway History 101. The course materials are all available right on this web site.
I know the T/A has been thinking up plans out of the Milky Way Galaxy, but what have we citizens to handle it? Just flow with the process. It won't last forever, although I have a feeling the construction will be literally never ending. I was hoping for a time that ALL of the subway lines in NY had NO SERVICE ADVISORIES at all.
The TA had a deferred maintenance policy for a few decades. The system nearly collapsed as a result. We're still making up for that now.
>>For months, residents of Queens have been forced to endure unnecessary reroutings, and track closings, all in the name of "track work". Yet, I have yet to see any signs of track work taking place. Not a worker. Not a work train. Maybe there is some kind of track work taking place, and I always miss seeing any sign of it. Maybe not. Either way, it's clear that the TA is closing the express track between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt unnecessarily.<<
Again, just because you don't see a work train DOES NOT mean that no work is taking place.
>>The TA's response? Increase service! Run three trains. E, F, R, all in one tunnel.<<
>>The result? You guessed it. 15, 20, 25 minutes delays going into the city. It was sickening all weekend. Not just for the passengers, but employees too. Some told me that the long delays cut into their breaks. Some told me that it would cause unwanted OT. Either way, no one gains from this.<<
I don't understand this either, but perhaps you should take this into consideration:
The B/D/Q (now the Q, < Q >, W) all used the same trackage just fine for years during rush hour. So, I'm guessing that they made a guess that it would be safe to operate these trains together. (I mean, the TA had a prime example to base their facts on, so why not go on this, hmm?)
>>But judging from what I see, it's all going to get alot worse before it gets better. A once great system has turned into a cesspool of imcompetence.<<
Oh. I see. You have to suffer, and now it's a "cesspool of incompetence". I would hardly call one weekend of delays 'incompetence'. And, there was an article in the Sunday Times (well in the past now) about the people who write up the re-routes. So, you may be able to write to the Times, and find the journalist who wrote this article. Then, you could find out just who is writing these G/O's.
I swear, anytime that you have the slightest problem, it's the TA being incompetent. They do have reasons for what they do, though it might not be apparent to you.
Well I guess I can be greatful not to have to be around stuff like that. Maybe I can remember that when I'm stuck on a traffic choked freeway waiting to go somewhere. I then can say I haven't got it so bad. Still, that would only be small consolation.
One weekend? Wrong. It was two weekends of 3 trains sharing one track into Manhattan. But in reality, there is some kind of rerouting EVERY WEEK.
Look, service to the Queens Corridor will never be normal on weekends. Passengers will always have to go out of their way to find out what this week's formula for disaster is.
And as far as the work trains, and workers that I never see, well, maybe you're right, maybe I'm right. My point is that the track closings are excessive, and probably unnecessary most of the time.
I swear, anytime that you have the slightest problem, it's the TA being incompetent. They do have reasons for what they do, though it might not be apparent to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loco. If I complained every time I had a problem, you'd see my name up here five or six times a week. Don't be a mark! I know you love trains. We all love trains. But we should be able to speak our mind, and tell the truth about the TA.
And if you think I was mad, you should have seen some of the crews on the E, F, and R trains. They were just as angry, and agreed with everything I am saying. They're just too afraid to come out and say so.
That's right. The red lights were not blocking the express tracks yesterday, they were "open" between Roosevelt and 36th. The trains still went local. Anyone care to explain that?
I don't like the T/A when they do that.
Anyone know what a "Queensmaster" is?
: |
Railfan Pete.
>>Anyone know what a "Queensmaster" is?<<
The new Queens Plaza Master Tower.
Not a dominatrix for homosexuals?
Well that explains it. A SubTalker informed me about why the express tracks were closed for so long, especially on the weekends, and he said the T/A was rewiring all of the signals for the "Queensmaster".
They should have the express rails up and running normally soon, INCLUDING weekends.
He also mentioned "just wait until they get to the local tracks."
: )
Railfan Pete.
The Master Tower is at Queensboro Plaza (upstairs on the structure) Didn't I just go through this with my Towers page. This morning should have seen the end of Queens plaza Tower
There is this DUDE, wearing an all white suit, white hat and gloves.
He has a diamond pinky ring and his front teeth are all capped in GOLD!
He can be found sitting on a throne like gilded chair. In the masters room he can monitor all of his empire.
To do this, to watch his ladies movements, he needs signals , to better keep a tight rein on them.....
The GO was still in effect.
-Hank
God Hank, you'll do anything to defend the incompetence of the TA.
Just as you seem to do anything to criticize them. I've pointed out SEVERAL things that easily counter your bitch session, but you don't seem to be interested.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean there isn't anything happening.
I don't suppose you've ever seen a radio wave, have you? But you know it's there, because when you turn on the radio or the TV, you've got sound and maybe a picture.
You sound like one of those moonie conspirists.
-Hank
LOL. Your come back certainly puts me in my place. But I'll never be convinced that the express tracks between Roosevelt and Queens Blvd really needed to be closed down every single weekend, since last October.
There probably is some kind of work being done somewhere. But does it really justify eliminating express service in Western Queens every weekend? Of course not.
I'm not disputing that. It's just that they never have any kind of work being done (that would require track closure) without the red light protection at the last possibly turnout. The trains should have been allowed to run express since therefore was no work being done.
I started this argument months ago. I gave up and did not post here for a long time. Since then, I still have not seen any sign of track work taking place on weekends.
Unfortunately, we'll never convince Traindude of this.
I explained it. INCOMPETENCE is the TA's moto. There was no real reason to close the express tracks. I have already contacted the STRAPHANGERS Org. Let's hope they investigate this. It's gone on for too long.
The red lights were in place at the switch just before 36th street, blocking the express tracks along with a temporary trip arm. I saw it from the railfan window on an R32 E train coming out of connector and switching to the local track.
Does it really matter? There was no reason to close those express tracks for the entire weekend. This has been going on since last October. EVERY WEEKEND? Come on. We all know what is really going on. Nothing.
I didn't check for that, but southbound the track was open.
Perhaps so that the few passengers who bother to read the service notices don't get dragged past their stops.
Thank you!!!!! Finally, someone willing to offer an answer, other than the lame, "track work" excuse.
Those bastards!!!! If I told them once, I told them 1,000 times that before they do any work, you should be informed personally as to the entire workscope and schedule. I've told them over and over that it's not enough to post service diversion notices. They should tell you exactly what they are planning and see if you have a better idea as to how it should be done. Shit, with all your years of experience in power distribution and signal installation, you could probably have gotten it done while trains were operating. Who needs to keep to a schedule? Who needs to do any testing? And if you finish early - open the track early. Anyone who doesn't get the message and is on the tracks by mistake - screw the bastard. It's too bad that all the geniuses like you are not working for the TA and all us idiots are.
For a second, I thought you were being sarcastic there.
Who? Me?
It still does not explain why the TA ran only two trains, the F and R on weekends 9 out 10 times this year, then expanded to E, F, and R service during the only two weekends when they knew that there would be only one tunnel connecting Queens to Manhattan.
Explain that.
I guess you didn't get the message. It was necessary! It was done! The express tracks were closed. It didn't make sense to run 3 locals and since the E & R are so geographically close in Manhattan, that was the way it worked out.
Now I get the message. The almighty TrainDude has spoken, and all must listen.
Truth be told. Poor planning on the part of the TA lead to 20-30 minute delays into Manhattan for the past two weekends. And many T/O's and C/R's involved in the mess agreed with me. One even posted in response to my initial message.
I can't wait until I start T/O training in January. By then, they'll be up to my number. It'll be fun working with you.
Okay, I'll play. Explain to me what poor planning caused 20-30 minute delays? Either you or one of those involved can tell me. I'd really be interested in your response. Please give me a specific instance...
A specific instance? GOD. You really don't understand just how rough the subways can be.
Last Saturday, 8/25, I entered a Manhattan-bound R train at Steinway. My destination was Lexington/63rd. How long do you think it took to get there? 35 minutes!
This past Saturday, I entered a Manhattan-bound F at Continental. Once we got to Roosevelt, it was a disaster. I arrived in Manhattan at 9:45, when I told people I would be there at 9:30. Normally, the trip would take about 25-30 minutes. But because the TA decided after one year, it's time to run all three Queens Blvd trains to Manhattan through one tunnel, me trip was extended by about 20 minutes.
I spend the entire trip talking to a T/O who was on his way to work on the 3 line. He was going to get off and take a cab, because he was afraid he'd be late. He shot down my theory that there is no kind of track work taking place on the express tracks, but he was in total agreement with my opinion that the TA should have waited another week before restoring E service on weekends.
Yesterday, Labor Day was the worst. At 4pm, EVERY Manhattan-bound E, F, R train took about 20 minutes longer than normal to go from Roosevelt to Lexington/63rd.
And I'm glad you'll play. Unfortunately, this topic is no joke.
"You really don't understand just how rough the subways can be."
Yeah, you are probably right. I started riding the subways way back in the early 60s, going to and from school. For the last 20 or so, I've been riding them regularly to and from work. I spend every working day on the subways and I haven't got a F#%&ing clue?
I asked you a specific question. You still have not explained what aspect of poor planning caused your alleged delays. There may have been delays. But some of you must live with a damn dark cloud over your heads. I ride the trains almost every working day. I ride them AMs, PMs and midnights. I ride on weekdays and weekends. I'm rarely delayed more than a few minutes so you'll forgive me if I find all of this just a bit far-fetched.
Here's a thought. All of the dispatcher's sheets for 8/25 are down-town. Why don't you write a letter of complaint that at a specific time it took you 35 minutes to go from Steinway Street to 63rd & Lex on an R train. Ask them why and then post the answer. I'm quite sure that it was not exactly as you remember it and if it did take that long, it was not due to 'planning'.
As for your alleged #3 train operator, two thoughts. First, how would he know what G.O.s are in effect. T/Os have enough trouble keeping track of the G.O.s in their own divisions. Secondly, if the T/O was going to be late due to a significant disruption in train service, his lateness would be excused. Why then would he opt to take a cab. Your account is more like a slice of alpine lece - too many holes...
Look. The poor planning was running three trains through one tunnel between Manhattan and Queens. It caused serious delays. Don't you understand that?
As for the alleged 3 T/O, he was a passenger coming from Jamaica, on his way to work he got off with me at Lex. I don't think there is any reason to not believe me, unless the truth hurts.
3 services through one tunnel on a weekend? At what intervals? I don't think so. Since all 3 were coming from the same track and going from the same track, no switching even at 6 minute intervals on each line, the tunnel can handle the traffic flow. So you're correct, I don't understand that. Why don't you explain to me how 3 trains running at 8 to 10 minute intervals through the tunnel have serious delays.
As to the rest of your story, I don't know if the truth hurts. You've yet to convince me that it's the truth. Either way, I'm sure the truth can't hurt as much as when you get up to speed and step on your fingers.
What happened was that the E,F and R trains were running at 8 minute intervals on Saturday, and were running on one track from Roosevelt Av to Lexington/63.
Services became really backed up and were arriving at their terminals 20+ minutes late. It got so bad that the Control Center ordered the headways for all 3 lines cut back to 12 minute intervals for the rest of Saturday, and all day on Sunday. And even then, trains were struggling to get in within the 5 minute on time cushion.
I guess you could compare the situation to the 7 line. With the 3 services at an 8 minute headway, that would mean a train every 2 minutes and 40 seconds. One train with a door problem, or one delay giving a lineup can screw things up pretty good.
Thanks for the information. Was the back-up due to a train with mechanical failure - switch/signal trouble - or other factors?
Jesus Christ! He just told you why the backups were so bad. E, F, R all merging onto the local track between Roosevelt/74 and Manhattan, lead to serious congestion.
The same exact thing happened the previous weekend(8/25-8/26), and the TA knew the same thing would happen Labor Day weekend. But the TA said "what the f*ck", it's them(passengers and crews) not us who has to deal with it".
You're babbling about mechanical problems aboard a train, and switch problems, when the real problem is clear to everyone but you. The TA wrote a bad GO. People make mistakes. Unfortunately, they happen far too frequently in TA management.
Look, if I want information from you you, you'll know it because I'll be asking you. You've established exactly zero credibility with me. YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO TELL ANYONE WHAT A GOOD G.O. IS AND WHAT IS NOT A GOOD G.O.. Something caused the back-up and I'm still waiting to know what it is. In the meantime, you've done nothing but confirm that my first impression of you was correct.
Yes,something caused the backup. Too many trains using one track. That'll do it most of the time. Add some confused passengers holding doors, etc.... and you'll have delays.
I'm going to give you the benifit of the doubt and let you show that you are not as stupid as you seem. The track is designed to handle 36 TPH. There is no switching going on and no convergence of routes. If the 3 lines are running on an 8 minute headway, trains are running every 2:40 (keep your shoes on) that's roughly 24 trains per hour - how is that too many trains on one track? Why is there no backup in Queens? Now, while you are at it Goob, why don't you tell me where you've got all your formal training in mass transit management. Tell us who actually writes the G.O. and how many divisions actually have imput or a say in its approval.
On paper, you're right. But in reality, as you read from Zman's post, things were a mess. Why don't you ask some T/O's who worked this past weekend for their real life account of what they think went wrong?
I don't believe that the reason for the delays was solely due to too many trains. The 7 during the rush hour has a 90 second headway and is able to maintain a rather smooth operation. The E/F/R was running at a combined 160 second headway. On this reason alone, there should be no reason for any delays. But those "unforeseen circumstances" can be quite a b*tch at times.
I thought the problem was at Roosevelt. Even though headways were 160 seconds on paper, you'll find that two express trains arrive back to back, while an R local arrives at the same time. Now, you have an R on the local track, and an F crossing over to the local track before the R can continue. This delays both the R and waiting E train. Finally, the waiting E pulls into Roosevelt, and people run over to the R because they figure it might leave first. They hold the doors, bug the conductor, and the R is delayed even further. Now, by the time all this happens, the next batch of E and F trains are catching up to Roosevelt Ave, and you have delays.
The E and F trains are like this every morning. Tomorrow, I'll barely miss my F train to the city from Continental. 30 seconds later, an R-32 E will pull into Continental. I'll get on, and we'll sit behind the F at Roosevelt, Queens Plaza, and Lexington for sure.
>>>>>>>The E and F trains are like this every morning. Tomorrow, I'll barely miss my F train to the city from Continental. 30 seconds later, an R-32 E will pull into Continental. I'll get on, and we'll sit behind the F at Roosevelt, Queens Plaza, and Lexington for sure.
Of course it will. You should be used to the drill by now.
If you have a little extra time, instead of riding the R and changing at Roosevelt, ride the G instead and change at Queens Plaza. You should have a seat on the G to Queens Plaza, and you shouldn't lose any substantial time since the E/F service usually runs slow, and the G/R run regular during the AM rush.
Today, I was on an express, and we left Continental at the same time as a s/b R. I saw that same train at Queens Plaza. Car 5805 was the last car s/b.
We sat between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza forever. We had this annoying conductor who tries to make railroad style announcements. He really tried to sound more distinguished than most conductors.
I've had occasion to find out how much LACK of G.O.s, and cancelled G.O.s. push up the cost of subway rehabilitation. After a few months on the inside, I'd say we'd be better off with complete shutdowns ie. the 2/3 in Harlem and the Willie B.
The Flushing Line is especially affected: no work during the U.S. Open, no work when the Mets are in town, no work during holiday shopping, etc. There are all these rules for G.O.s. Everyone from those organizing big parades to the Bronx Zoo says stop work at one point or another, and if there is too much other work going on they shut down your job so people won't get diverted twice.
Big, big bucks.
Why don't you ask some T/O's who worked this past weekend for their real life account of what they think went wrong?
If you follow the thread back just a few posts you will find out that i was attempting to do just that when you interjected yourself into the discussion by suggesting that the poster had already answered my question. Now, while you (with your novice understanding of the system) may have been satisfied by the answer, I was not and asked for a clarification. That additional question seemed to bother you. Perhaps you should come to realize that you simply do not know as much as you think you do. Stop flapping, sit quietly, listen and learn something.
If the 3 lines are running on an 8 minute headway, trains are running every 2:40 (keep your shoes on) that's roughly 24 trains per hour - how is that too many trains on one track?
That's not the entire story. You also have to make sure that all the trains arrive at the merge point at 160 second intervals. Ordinarilly, the E and F are scheduled to alternate every 4 minutes on Saturdays. If they kept the same departure times to effect the merge at VanWyck or Forest Hills, then one would expect them to arrive at Roosevelt at :00:00(E), :04:00(F), :08:00(E), :12:00(F), :16:00(E), etc. Merging the R in at Roosevelt would then yield spacing like: :00:00(E), :02:00(R), :04:00(F), :08:00(E), :10:00(R), :12:00(F), :16:00(E), etc. If the tower wants to equalize headways then the trains should leave at :00:00(E), :02:40(R), :05:20(F), 08:00(E), 10:40(R), 13:20(F), :16:00(E), etc. This means that the first express, e.g. E, will not be delayed; the local will be delayed 40 seconds and the second express, e.g. F, will be delayed 80 seconds.
The normal way to eliminate such problems would be to equalize the merges or run the E/F merge with unequal headways. The former solution would involve also running the G at 8 minute intervals. This would permit 30 tph operation with no delays to equalize the headways at Roosevelt. The latter would involve starting the E and F at intervals of 00:00, 05:20, 08:00, 13:20, 16:00, etc. The R would be scheduled at 02:40, 10:40, etc. This would mean that stations with joint E/F service would have unequal headways. The average passenger entering at these stations would suffer the same delay. The difference is that this delay would be waiting on the platform instead of waiting in the train. Also, this delay would be limited to only to the passengers boarding at these stations not to the all passengers on the R and F.
Which choice did operations make?
There should be more fun when the V comes on line. They are planning to run the R and V at 6 minute headways, each (3 min combined) and the E and F at 4 minute headways, each (2 min combined). It's mathematically impossible to avoid merging conflicts with this combination.
IMO, one of the big reasons for the backups was waiting for lineups at 21 Street and at Lexington. Southbound at 21-Queensbridge, you had to punch at a red homeball for the lineup and then you had to wait about 2 minutes for the lineup to come in since the tower isn't fully operational. Couple this with 2 min 40 sec headways, and voila.
None of the trains I rode last weekend had to stop outside 21st -- at all, let alone for two minutes.
Therefore, if what you are saying is true, you just proved my point. If the trains would have been on time save for the time waiting for the master tower to clear off the signal, then it was signal trouble or human error that caused the delay. It was not poor planning of the G.O. as suggested by the 'less informed' poster who started this thread.
Had the TA not sent so many trains down one track, at one time, the master tower would not have been backed up so much, and service would have been better. The human error was made in an office by someone who did not realize that trying to merge three trains onto one track, would eventually cause congestion.
Since you rank so high in the TA, certainly you can easily contact a few E, F, or R T/O's to find out what they think the problem was.
Or perhaps the tower was overwhelmed? As I understand it, they're wiring the place up. Have you ever worked in a facility with a lot of equipment stuffed into a small place with NEW equipment and OLD equipment vying for that space? Ever BEEN in a tower? Not exactly spacious when it's all buttoned up and running under normal circumstances.
I'd be willing to bet there's stuff all over the floor in there, wiring hanging from the ceiling and a number of things that make an already difficult job in there almost impossible. However if there was a TW/O literally asleep at the switch, I'd say burn him. :)
But I doubt this was the case. Maybe if you're nice to Train Dude, he just might somehow find a way to get you a tour of a tower some day so you can see for yourself.
Here's my point.
For the last YEAR, the TA has been running the following GO in Queens:
F 179-Coney Island via 63rd tunnel
R Jamaica Center-95th Street Brooklyn
E No service
Suddenly, on the weekend of 8/25-8/26, the TA started running E, F, and R service again. Basically, this meant that the Queens Corridor had full service on weekends again. At the same time, the TA decided to run ALL THREE trains to/from Manhattan via ONE TUNNEL, the 63rd.
"As I understand it, they're wiring the place up"? That's what you are saying regarding the tower. Well, if that's true, and I have no reason to believe it's not, then why did the TA resume full-service in Queens with the knowledge that a tower was being rewired? Wouldn't this reduce the capabilities of the tower? Of course it would. Yet the TA increased capacity on the Queens Corridor anyway.
As a daily passenger on the Queens Corridor, and someone who experienced lengthy delays the last two weekends, and discussed the issue with T/O's and C/R's who were working there, it's my opinion that if the TA had continued the long running weekend GO which limited service to just the F and R, with no E trains, things would have been alot better the last two weekends, because there would have been much less congestion.
Any thoughts people?
"Any thoughts people?"
Just one - will you give it a flippin' rest already!!!!!! You sound like a god-damn broken record!!!!!
Thank you for explaining the problem. Unfortunately, Traindude would rather look for "mechanical" or "switch" problems, even after you clearly explained the situation.
Are you sure this is a job you want?
Sure. Look at the starting pay! What do I care if I make people late for a living.
If starting pay is your only criteria, you may find yourself quite unhappy with your job.
Additionally, your supervisors may not be very fond of your stated attitudes, should you choose to state them while on the job. There is such a thing as "probationary," even in the TA.
I was just wondering if you had some career options involving things you enjoy doing, and doing well.
I would urge you to pay heed to the advice by Ron. As an hourly employee, you may not be in a position to publicly disagree with Authority policy (especially while on probation.) Rule #10b states, "employees are required to avoid such behavior as would tend to create adverse criticism of the Authority or of the system......."
Perhaps not quite a loyalty oath but you are held accountable for your behavior on and off duty.
Well put,Train Dude!
I love the subways. I don't like the decisions made by management. Many of my friends already work for the TA, and as much as some of them hate it, they know it's still ten times better than corporate America.
One C/R I know was called at his home because a passenger complained about an abrasive C/R on the R train. Can you believe that?
I actually like the people I know "on the job" as they say. My overall opinion of the average TA employee is that they are hard working people who put up with alot of shit from passengers, and management.
As I was telling the T/O on his way to work on the 3 line, the TA does not attract a bad crop like the Police Dept, DMV, and other city jobs.
"My overall opinion of the average TA employee is that they are hard working people who put up with alot of shit from passengers, and management. "
You know, on second thought, if you are hired and if you get a choice, opt for the B division. I'd really love to get to know you.
I'm shaking in my boots.
I don't think it was a threat.
-Hank
the TA does not attract a bad crop like the Police Dept, DMV, and other city jobs.
2 questions, Einstein. Are you now an expert on the demographics of all people applying for TA jobs? Oh and by the way, when did the DMV become a city job. Slow down, your knuckles are starting to bleed!
I love trains. Always have. Always will. I think I'd love being a T/O. But I hate being a passenger.
You all won. I surrender. End of topic.
Just because you love trains doesn't mean you'll like the job. I love computers. They are now my job. I hate it.
-Hank
There are several reasons, when the E was to Whitehall 3 track could not switch to the 60th st cut so it had to run local.
There is also something going on with the old tower, the master tower and the switches at 36 st. You only go express thru the cut in emergencies. QP or QB Mater are idiots most of the time and it only gets worse in the middle of the night.
There is also a wrong lineup problem by having a TSS there at 36 st and at Lex watching every sinlge train things go smoother. Wrong line ups happen alot and get squashed before the rumor mill gets wind.
I also believe they are incrementally testing the cut as I explained in another post.
Oh yea there were some layups in the express tracks down there too . It is a new one on me. Yes I do mean between 74th and 36 and no they are not work trains.
Are you kidding? Are you really going to state that there were layups on the express tracks in Queens? Come on!.
First of all they do that in eastern Queens all the time. Second they do wierd things with G.O.s. Third I saw a full car set on those tracks in the middle of the night on tracks that were not being used in revenue service.
Strange theory ... if I had installed new signals and track circuits and was wiring up a model board, I'd want a layup in sequential track segments over time so I can ring out my wires, make sure they're connected to the correct relays just to make sure the color codes on the track end matched the codes on my end before soldering them up.
Maybe those "layups" were there to close track circuits for testing?
Disclaimer: I am not taunting anyone, presenting "facts" or hypothesizing on how I could run a better subway. Opinions expressed are those of a madman, kids - do NOT try this at home and as always, please - no wagering. :)
That makes sense especially since they are now closing 1 track in that area, the work is probably progressing. Most of the gangs were on 3 track and so were the train(s) I saw. I had just thought they either did it so they could put a train in service at QB or made the cut idiot proof by putting a train where it would force the normal route red (there is often another train between 36 and QP).
If they can't 'see' the area it might also explain why they use the cut all local or occasionally all express.
Hopefully that'll turn out to be the answer. I can only guess but at some point in the wiring/testing, they'd have to do something like that to prove out the work. Maybe someone with the authority knows the answer and it might turn up here. Beats guessing. :)
Excellent theory. I would suggest that test trains are usually required to test new signal/power/track installations. I suppose in Lionelville, the other theory would make more sense.
Lionelville. Never lived in that upscale community. I had to settle for an old woodframe in Plasticville. :)
I didn't ask you a question. If I wanted this information, I'd call the Superintendent who is responsible and ask.
Your post said what needed to be said.
It _would_ be a cool idea, however, if the TA could email service notices to people that would _voluntarily_ put themselves on a mailing list for a particular line. The info is already in the electronic domain, as it is posted on the MTA website.
Just a thought.
The Straphanger's Campaign does that already.
Straphangers does that already.
I would love to be able to sign up to receive announcements of all GO's, including the ones the TA doesn't bother to post.
Whoo boy. Some of the post in this thread are too harsh. I'm sure plenty of times you people have looked at a train or bus schedule and thought, "What the fuck are they doing?!" I'm sure plenty of times when you were late to work due to a late bus with one passenger and a driver proceeding as if they're in a mine field, you've wanted to strangle someone. I'm sure YOU wanted to call a manager and hurl obscenities. I know I have!
When it's cold and rainy and a bus doesn't show up. Buses that run every 45 minutes people! Yet, you're in the rain waiting for the next bus to loop around when their's a friggin bus station right up the street where they could easily dispatch one! But no, they don't!
And you know who makes these decisions, management. I'm sure they have their reasons that we couldn't possibly understand. Usually cost-cutting measures and such. But, just because management makes a decision doesn't mean it's good. Just because management may have worked ten hours to work out a schedule doesn't mean it'll get people to work on time.
And to get upset because someone says "The TA Sickens Me" is repulsive. This is a PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD people. Do you want me to define that for you? I'm sure we're not ALL knuckle draggers, despite what some people may think. I'm sure you know what a PMB is. Furthermore, this PMB is called SUBTALK, for the discussion of subway related issues. And guess what guys? This may surprise some of you, but um, THE TA RUNS SUBWAYS IN NYC!!!!!! WHAT?! I SAID, THE TA RUNS SUBWAYS IN NYC!!!!! Therefore, making it perfectly all right for a memeber of the PUBLIC to come on a PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD called SUBTALK and dicuss THE SUBWAY!!!!!!
Perhaps all of you have had rosy experiences upon this wonderful creation, but there are those that (gasp!) may not like what the hell the TA is doing! And you know what? He has a right not to. Just like the Redbird JIHAD has a right not like the R142s and vice-versa. People aren't going to agree on everything. There are things called opinions people. And this guy's opinions was that he didn't like what the TA was doing. I suppose it was an inconvienience for him. And people have the right to argue, BUT, some of these posts were uncalled for.
And of course, people responded with well-meaning but painfully obvious posts like, "Well, they had work to do, yada yada yada!" Duh! I sure hope they did. I hope the TA suits just didn't decide to fuck around with their customers. But of course, when you're inconvienienced, you don't think, "Gosh, the TA is doing some sort of work. Even though I will most likely end up being late or lost, I'll just supress all my angry feelings because this is the TA gosh darnit and they're going my way, or they wre but now there's a G.O. preventing that."
NO! That's not how the world works, when people get mad they bitch, they moan! Luch did it. I do it! We all do it! So yes people, the TA sickens him. For others it can be the cure for what ails you. But for some tight-asses to just up and go off because someone DARE insult the intelligence of the TA is just...............
You can finsih it. I'm tired. I just had to post on that, it seems to be a regularity on this board these days.
I just got back from NYC and I had a great time. I have a few questions about Manhattan's four vehicle tunnels. My first question probably relates to the second one.
Why did my car stereo have reception as clear as a bell in the Queens-Midtown and Brooklyn Battery tunnels but nothing came in at all in the Holland and Lincoln? (I had Q104.3 on all the time)
Does anyone know the depth of each of the four tunnels and the length? How about what year each was built?
I'm under the impresstion that the Lincoln Tunnel has 3 tubes and the rest have 2. If I'm wrong please correct me. When is the Lincoln's third tube used?
All of the information you can give is appreciated because those tunnels were REALLY interesting to me.
You are right the Lincoln has 3 tubes, 1 with two lanes eastbound, one with two lanes westbound, and one with one eastbound and one westbound lane. As for the radio the only time you should not get radio is when the PA is broadcasting construction or the like (as in any station your radio is on you will hear the PA announcement), other than that cell phones and radio should be no problem.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Sorry, wrong.
While the Lincoln has three tubes, the center tube is not always bi-directional; it's not even common. During rush hours, there are usually 4 lanes of traffic in the predominant direction; in the AM, one lane of the center tube is dedicated to buses.
All the tunnels are equipped with what is called 'leaky cable'; AM radio broadcasts and cellular telephone connections work in the tunnel. The Port Authority and to a smaller extant MTA Bridges & Tunnels broadcast over the entire AM dial with construction and traffic information. FM doesn't work in the tunnels because there's no retransmission. THere's a lot more detail in this that has to do with propagation and sine waves, but I don't have a firm grasp on that to attempt explaining it. It does have to do with the materials used to construct the tunnels, however.
-Hank
I had FM work in the Battery Tunnel on every occassion I've used it and had the radio on. They interrupted that with announcements too.
Unusual. Could be a proximity thing; as I understand it, the equipment needed to rebroadcast FM signals is significantly expensive and not all that reliable. That's why it's not in the Hudsson River tunnels.
-Hank
While the Lincoln has three tubes, the center tube is not always bi-directional; it's not even common. During rush hours, there are usually 4 lanes of traffic in the predominant direction; in the AM, one lane of the center tube is dedicated to buses.
Isn't the center tube bidirectional outside of rush hours (except when one tube is closed due to construction)? That makes up most of the day. How is it not common?
One tube is always closed middays for maintainence.
-Hank
Always? I rarely use the Lincoln (I prefer the GWB and the Holland) but I've driven through the bidirectional center tube during daylight hours.
On a weekday? Any time I've attempted to use the tunnel, either leaving B&H, a Rangers game, or something else in the city (I can't stand the Holland Tunnel backups), there's always been a tube closed, and two open tubes with one-way traffic.
I guess it depends on your timing.
-Hank
I'd be greatful if anyone could give me a schematic of how all those entrances and turn-offs off 9th, 10th, 11th Avenues and the various streets all lead to what tubes.
In my experience, the NY entrances are so confusing I don't know which tube I'm in till I exit in NJ, and then it's not always too safe to stare in the mirror to figure this out.
However, as far as I can tell, the center tube is all NY--bound in AM rush hours (left lane for busses only) and bi-directional off peak hours (unless there's maintenance in one of the others). I don't know about PM rush.
I've been through the center tube both during rush hours when it was one-direction and non rush hours when it was bidirectional. This was a long, long time ago; I haven't used the Lincoln Tunnel since 1988.
BTW, the third tube opened in 1957.
I get lost around there also. This may be of some assistance.
"While the Lincoln has three tubes, the center tube is not always bi-directional; it's not even common. During rush hours, there are usually 4 lanes of traffic in the predominant direction; in the AM, one lane of the center tube is dedicated to buses."
Just FYI, lanes of traffic that can be reversed are techincally referred to as swing lanes. In other words, they aren't intended to be dedicated to one direction or the other.
It's a lot easier to call them swing lanes than: "the lanes that can have traffic go either way depending on the time of day." It also sounds a lot cooler. There may be other technical terms.
MATT-2AV
Well, supposedly, the Holland and Lincoln tunnels we wired for FM radio. It worked for about a week, then you couldn't get radio anymore. And when it worked, it didn't work too well.
The Lincoln tunnel does have three tubes. Northern tube: always 2 lanes westbown. Southern tube: always 2 lanes eastbound. Middle tube: 2 lanes in peak direction during rush hours, during non rush hours it's one eastbound, one westbound lane.
The Battery Tunnel is the longest vehicular tunnel in the United States. There is a plaque stating this in front of the Manhattan ventilation tower across from Battery Park.
You New Yokers love superlatives, don't you?
Does anyone know the depth of each of the four tunnels and the length? How about what year each was built?
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel: Construction started 10/28/1940. Opened to traffic 5/25/1950. Length: 9,117 feet. Original plans called for a bridge.
Queens Midtown Tunnel: Construction started 10/2/1936. Opened to traffic 11/15/1940. Length: 6,272 feet (south tube), 6414 feet (north tube). Max depth 86 feet, mean high water to roadway.
Holland Tunnel: Construction started 2/1/1920. Opened to traffic 11/13/1927. North tube length 8,558 feet. South tube 8.371 feet. Max depth, mean high water to roadway - 93 feet 5 inches.
Lincoln Tunnel: Construction started 5/17/1934. North tube opened to traffic 2/4/1945 at 7,482 feet. Center tube opened to traffic 12/22/1937 at 8,216 feet. South tube opened to traffic 5/25/1957 at 8.006 feet. Max depth, mean high water to roadway is 97 feet.
Further details, construction histories, etc can be found at The Crossings of Metro New York and by reading Robert Caro's "The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of NY". (I'm about 1/4 through the Caro book now. Very interesting!!)
--Mark
On Labor Day (Monday) I left New York driving through the Holland Tunnel with KISS FM (98.7) pumping strong right through the tunnel. I was suprised because I didn't know it had been wired for FM radio. I did realize that cell phones work fine in the tunnels.
Wayne
My friend who was in NYC last year told me to make sure I walked across the 59th Street Bridge because the views were or the Manhattan skyline were spectacular. I did walk across the bridge but only the north side was opened for peds and bicyclists. My friend swears he walked across the on the south side last year, he even has the pictures to prove it. Anybody know why they made the switch? The norht side didn't impress me but I can see how the south side would be absolutely stunning. Are they going to return it to having the south side used for pedestrians again?
The powers that be have switched the pedestrian traffic between those outer roadways a number of times, mostly due to construction on one or the other. There seems to be a bias in favor of using the northern roadway for pedestrians to restrict the entry of automobiles into Manhattan and to expedite the removal of automobiles from Manhattan.
I was going to Brooklyn on Saturday, and I get on the N at Cortlandt, and we go Via tunnel and local on 4th ave, but then the C/R says "There is no W service this train will make all W stops to Coney Island." Now on the way back I walk to the N since I know there is no City bound W service and when we get on the N, at 36th the C/R says, "This train will be express on 4th ave," when we get to Pacific, he says, "The next stop on this train will be Canal St." (Meaning we will skip DeKalb and go Via the bridge." I just would like to know, what was the reason for only one direction each way on the Sea Beach and West End lines?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The southbound N was supposed to run via the West End line, according to posted GO.
The northbound N was supposed to run express from 36th to Pacific and then over the bridge, according to the posted GO.
The W was not supposed to be cancelled. I don't know whose idea it was to make such a significant change without first notifying the public.
There was a GO that did indeed cancel W service. Why no one was told about it, I don't know. Hell, even the crew assignment office, didn't know about it. N and R trains bypassed DeKalb northbound because the 4th Ave track there was torn out. Since they had to use the Bypass track, they were forced onto express track. Obvoiusly, you can't run two express services AND have a third terminate and run wrong-rail in the middle of it. Since something had to give, the W lost the battle.
"There was a GO that did indeed cancel W service. Why no one was told about it, I don't know. Hell, even the crew assignment office, didn't know about it. N and R trains bypassed DeKalb northbound because the 4th Ave track there was torn out. Since they had to use the Bypass track, they were forced onto express track. Obvoiusly, you can't run two express services AND have a third terminate and run wrong-rail in the middle of it. Since something had to give, the W lost the battle."
heheheehhe
N Broadway Line
The "W": The Weak, the Weary, the Wayne.....the WOT??????
Oh that "W", Woe is us.
wwwwwayne
"W"hatever "W"ayne "W"ants
You're right, the W would have needed to wrong-rail through that mess to turn. I forgot that there was only a crossover in one direction between the two express tracks. Consider this another strike against whoever writes up the GO posters.
(When N and R trains operate the other way over the bridge, the W will be able to turn as usual.)
Come to think of it, the W could have run, in an awkward fashion: both ways on the northbound local track. It would have had to run express on the West End southbound, but the N would have provided service to the local stops. Probably not a good idea, in any case, unless the northbound local track is signalled in both directions.
The 4th Avenue-to-bridge non-bypass track at DeKalb was in service -- the Q was using it, as always. However, the connection from the 4th Avenue local track to the bridge track appeared to be torn up -- even on Wednesday, when I passed through again on a Q. (The closed section of platform south of DeKalb was well lit.)
DID THE SEA BEACH GO OVER THE BRIDGE/ DID THE SEA BEACH GO OVER THE BRIDGE? Did I hear right?
Yeah, yeah, the Sea Beach went over the Bridge northbound only.
Well glory be praised. How long will that be for. A victory of sorts.
Sorry, that was a temporary service. :(
Speaking on behalf of Fred,
Oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Yup, Oooh nooo is the word. Fred is not going to be happy about this... His blood will be boiled to 1000 degreeF as mines already was.
Just as bad as I would like to see the N being sent over to the bridge in 2004. I will not give up my hopes til that day arrives. And when that time had comes, I will be the first passanger ride that train.
You may have a fellow passenger on that train. The guy by the railfan window will be wearing his #4 Sea Beach Fred cap.
"ExpressM"
When was the M ever an express train?
N Broadway Line
Years ago between Myrtle Ave and Essewx Street, back in BMT Days
And also from 1989-94 along 4th Avenue, including the brief period in 1990 and 91 when the N was using the Manhattan Bridge.
It was express in the mid-60s (until Chrystie St. connection), running from Coney Island to Chambers St. via Nassau, express on Brighton line north of Kings Highway.
Fred: Not only did the 'N' run into Manhattan over the Bridge, it ran express all the way up 4th Avenue AND skipped DeKalb. So did the 'R'. Unfortunately, both services reverted to Broadway local service after Canal Street, thus depriving riders of the original classic Sea Beach service.
It was a very confusing weekend for Brooklyn riders. You had no inbound West End service and no outbound Sea Beach service, with the 'N' picking up the slack for both lines. As mentioned above, there was no inbound service at 4th Avenue local stations. This made for chaos at Pacific Street outbound, 36th Street and especially the 62nd/New Utrecht complex. Luckily, all inbound West End and 4th Avenue local platforms seemed to be roped off.
Most outbound 'N' or 'R' conductors failed to make any announcements at Pacific Street about a lack of 'W' service. Some even announced connection to the 'W', hopefully out of reflex and not ignorance. How do I know? We spent almost an hour there on Sunday afternoon waiting for a Slant so the boy could 'drive' the West End line- he isn't of height to reach the front window of an R-42 yet! There WERE a couple of advisory signs on the pillars, but that didn't stop mobs of people from waiting impatiently for the nonexistent 'W'. Some were there the whole hour. I tried telling a few, but they didn't want to hear it.
It was amusing seeing the reactions of people on the rerouted 'N' when we hit daylight after 36th Street, as well as on the rerouted 'R' when we came onto the Bridge. The Slant was a staple on the West End from 1981 through 1997 so THAT didn't feel too strange, but it was very bizarre riding an R-46 over the Bridge, especially with LED signs. Actually, the 46 DID have a presence there when they ran on the 'N' 1976-87.
Combine all this with the '1' running to Brooklyn in place of the '3' and ALL Queens Boulevard service running through 63rd Street and it's a disaster for non-buffs. (I'd also like to add that there were NO signs or announcements at Lexington/60 of a lack of 'R' service- but I won't.)
A #1 in Brooklyn? Bob would be tickled green by that. Hell, that is good news to me. I remember the #1 as a Brooklyn line when I was in my younger mode.
In 1953 they started running to Astoria, I have a photo of it somewhere, dated Sept 1953
Northbound only, and just for two weekends (and overnights), but southbound there was no Sea Beach service at all -- the N ran on the West End.
Come to think of it, this past week, middays, the southbound W ran over the bridge and then down the Sea Beach. This is a common W reroute; usually it runs express on the Sea Beach, but the R-143 test train has been in the way on the express track lately, so it's been running local a lot.
Do you see the red cars in the yard? What kind of cars are those and when did they run? The photo was taken from the Fern Rock BSL Line Platform. If you know, please e-mail me.
Thanks, in advance.
Is it possible these represent rolling stock running on the BSL a long time ago?
Beleieve it or not I'm here for a brief visit. Indeed your post tells what they are. To my knowledge they never ran anywhere but on the Filthy Delphia Broad Street Subway unless they ran over the bridge to Camden once in a while?
ED! Hey! Glad to see you got your mitts on a machine, however briefly! We MISSED ya ... sure hope you can purloin one again!
I can't see the photo very clearly, but the City of Philadelphia retains three first-generation cars:
B-I (North Broad) Car 1 (restored)
B-II (South Broad) 166
B-III (Bridge Car) 1025
These were used on charters and special occasions in the 1980s and early 1990s. I believe they are no longer operative.
PATCO also has two Bridge Car bodies which were repainted for the Ben Franklin Bridge 70th Anniversary--1008 and 1015 I believe. These are likely stowed at Lindenwold.
Regards,
George Chiassson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I was given strength by God to visit Metuchen station during the first half of the AM rush at Metuchen, my home station.
I woke up, showered, dressed, and was biking to head for the 6:05AM train, but was too late, and I heard those clacketing rails down a street I was biking upon.
The sun wasn't fully up yet, no, not even at 6AM, so it looked like the time right before dusk.
I arrive at Metuchen to find myself getting goosebumps and standing to observe trains.
The schedules for the trains I was going to observe were the 6:05AM, 6:20AM, 6:40AM, 6:48AM, and 7:00a, with a bonus of the 7:11a train.
I noted three (3) southbound trains during these times.
Guess what? Instead of the late, and undependable on-time service for NJT trains, the 6:20AM, 6:40a, and the 6:48a train all came 1 minute early!!! I was impressed. Many train sightings include:
1) Arrow III MA car-types (normal during service) Car #1331 had its front NJT logo a little higher than usual, and the original positioning of it was cleared away but you can still see the outlines.
2) COMET IV car #5010!!!! Previously owned by MTA!!!!! It was attached at the end of the 6:20a train, leading with ALP-44 locomotive #4428. The front of the car displayed slanted orange line paints, with "5010" around the middle height of the train.
A THIN black line, with the small NJT symbols slanted at their respective slides and color orders AND the MTA Metro-North Commuter Railroad burned off the side, the outlines were still visible just like Comet IV car #5009.
3) The Comet III car #5510 on the same train, its center doors wouldn't close all the way, but it kept going anyway.
4) The 6:23a train to Trenton was NEVER FOUND. Anyone who is an NJT expert on this can probably tell me if the train was CANCELED or something. But the 6:35a train arrived ON TIME.
1--> What happened to the 6:23a train that was supposed to arrive s/b at Metuchen?
5) The Usual "morning express" with AMTRAK's Acela Express clicking and warming the rails for the day was found.
Everything was found in which a railfan would expect it to be found.
Then the second half of the AM rush posed some problems.
1) The 7:00a train arrived Metuchen as a speeding bullet (because it was late) into Metuchen at 7:05a.
2) Automated announcement renders message "Attention Metuchen passengers: The 7:11a train to New York is operating 5 to 10 minutes late, due to mechanical problems. We apologize for the inconvenience."
Now I saw some heads shaking and silent mumbling from the disgruntled passengers waiting to board their train.
2---> Which mechanical problem can a NJT train be stuck with?
3) 7:14a train to Trenton is running ON TIME and observed.
4) 7:11a train finally arrives at 7:16a, THIS was when the AE train was spotted.
5) Train leaves, session ends.
All in all, it was a good railfanning day. I hope someone can answer my questions.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I visited Metuchen station through a chilly, before-dawn experience, the first half of the AM rush at Metuchen, my home station.
I woke up, showered, dressed, and was biking to head for the 6:05AM train, but was too late, and I heard those clacketing rails down a street I was biking upon.
The sun wasn't fully up yet, no, not even at 6AM, so it looked like the time right before dusk.
I arrive at Metuchen to find myself getting goosebumps and standing to observe trains.
The schedules for the trains I was going to observe were the 6:05AM, 6:20AM, 6:40AM, 6:48AM, and 7:00a, with a bonus of the 7:11a train.
I noted three (3) southbound trains during these times.
Guess what? Instead of the late, and undependable on-time service for NJT trains, the 6:20AM, 6:40a, and the 6:48a train all came 1 minute early!!! I was impressed. Many train sightings include:
1) Arrow III MA car-types (normal during service) Car #1331 had its front NJT logo a little higher than usual, and the original positioning of it was cleared away but you can still see the outlines.
2) COMET IV car #5010!!!! Previously owned by MTA!!!!! It was attached at the end of the 6:20a train, leading with ALP-44 locomotive #4428. The front of the car displayed slanted orange line paints, with "5010" around the middle height of the train.
A THIN black line, with the small NJT symbols slanted at their respective slides and color orders AND the MTA Metro-North Commuter Railroad burned off the side, and the outlines were still visible just like Comet IV car #5009.
3) The Comet III car #5510 on the same train, its center doors wouldn't close all the way, but it kept going anyway.
4) The 6:23a train to Trenton was NEVER FOUND. Anyone who is an NJT expert on this can probably tell me if the train was CANCELED or something. But the 6:35a train arrived ON TIME.
1--> What happened to the 6:23a train that was supposed to arrive s/b at Metuchen?
5) The Usual "morning express" with AMTRAK's Acela Express clicking and warming the rails for the day was found.
Everything was found in which a railfan would expect it to be found.
Then the second half of the AM rush posed some problems.
1) The 7:00a train arrived Metuchen as a speeding bullet (because it was late) into Metuchen at 7:05a.
2) Automated announcement renders message "Attention Metuchen passengers: The 7:11a train to New York is operating 5 to 10 minutes late, due to mechanical problems. We apologize for the inconvenience."
Now I saw some heads shaking and silent mumbling from the disgruntled passengers waiting to board their train.
2---> Which mechanical problem can a NJT train be stuck with?
3) 7:14a train to Trenton is running ON TIME and observed.
4) 7:11a train finally arrives at 7:16a, THIS was when the AE train was spotted.
5) Train leaves, session ends.
All in all, it was a good railfanning day. I hope someone can answer my questions.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Car 1331 also has an old number plate, the same font and style as those from SEPTA Silverliners.
Not just #1331, various others. To me, I like the normal font better, because the old-types look "scrunched" and I feel uneasy about them.
Railfan Pete.
I got a bunch of them.
1. What was the LEAD Car # of the 7:14 AM Trenton train?
2. How often do a Comet IV runs on the Trenton Line?
3. Was Car #5510 was going to Trenton?
Can anyone tell me anything about the Fifth Avenue Water Tunnel.
Was it ever finished?
Where does it come from?
What route does it follow?
Where does it go?
How deep is it?
Thanks, Elias
Just taking a wild guess that it fed the old resevoir that used to be located where the NY Public Library now sits.
Oh... I *think* I am revering to a much newer construction, and I do not recall if it was ever finished or put into service. I have read about it's construction, and had seen pictures of two large earth moving trucks setting side by side inside of the tunnel.
But that is the extent of my knowledge on the tunnel. And so my question was what do we know of it, and how does it affect construction on (or under) Fifth Avenue.
Thanks, Elias
Oh... I *think* I am revering to a much newer construction, and I do not recall if it was ever finished or put into service. I have read about it's construction, and had seen pictures of two large earth moving trucks setting side by side inside of the tunnel.
You may be thinking of the third water tunnel. When complete sometime around 2020, it will provide a third connection between the Catskill Reservoir system and the city's water distribution system. It will provide additional capacity and also will allow the two existing, smaller tunnels to be closed temporarily, one at a time, for maintenance, something that's never been possible since they were built many decades ago. I also believe that the third tunnel will be by far the largest tunnel of any sort in the world. In fact, it may already be, even though it's not complete.
Yes, this is the tunnel I was thinking of.
Do you know where I can find more information on it, its route and its depth?
Thanks
Elias
Yes, this is the tunnel I was thinking of.
Do you know where I can find more information on it, its route and its depth?
Nothing I know of in particular, although a web search should pull up some useful sites.
Maybe http://www.nyc.gov/dep
I'm so glad someone finally asked this question. I am a Civil Engineer, and even though I work for a private consulting firm, all of our company's work is for the DEP.
There is actually a multitude of macrotunnels (dia. > 8 ft.) underneath the Streets of New York in all five boroughs. Yes, there is even a tunnel from Manhattan to Staten Island, called the Richmond tunnel! Some of these tunnels carry water. Others, such as the pair of tunnel out to Wards Island, carry wastewater and CSO. Some are in service, and some have been removed from service. They usually form a network. One thing they have in common is that they usually run at elevation (-)300 to (-)500 within the confines of the City limits. When we were going to take the Manhattan pump station tunnel out of service (dia. = 11 ft., from 14th Street and Avenue D to Greenpoint Brooklyn), we used to joke that we would try and sell it to the DOT. Too bad it is 380 feet below ground! To the untrained eye, there is little or no visual surface indication of their presence.
I hope this provides you with some useful information on New York City's other amazing tunnel system. Let me know if you have any questions,
MATT-2AV
Very interesting.
A few questions, if you don't mind:
What is CSO?
Can you describe the Richmond tunnel? When was it built? Cost? Purpose?
Does CSO refer to City Sewer Overflow, or Outflow?
Very nice post by Matt. NYC truly is two cities - one above ground and one below. Hard to tell sometimes which is more extensive.
Can you describe the Richmond tunnel? When was it built? Cost? Purpose?
It begins around Red Hook where City Water Tunnels 1 and 2 come together (and Tunnel 3 when phase 3 of it is completed) and runs to Silver Lake Park in Staten Island. I believe it was built in the 1930s or so to bring water to Staten Island. Before that local streams and wells would have to have been used for water on the island.
I'm pretty sure that it was built in the 1950s or 1960s, but I don't have the source here. This weekend I might look for it, but either way, I'm fairly certainly it was built after WWII.
Seth
Mr. KMA,
Thank you. To answer your questions, CSO is Combined Sewer Overflow. Ewww.... I bet you didn't think it stood for that?
In New York City, like most old cities, we have what are called combined sewers. In other words, the storm sewers and sanitary sewers are combined. This practice of building a combined sewer system has long since been banned in the United States. However, it is completely impractical to rebuild the New York City sewer system, so CSO structures have been built. Basically, CSOs take excess flow during storm events (it's raining hard, but people are still flushing at the same rate, so you have mostly water anyways), and divert it away from the downstream sewers to prevent overflow and unsanitary conditions.
As for the Richmond Tunnel, the only thing I am completely certain about is that it is used for water service. It is how Staten Island gets its drinking water from the City. It is also a deep bore tunnel, probably between 300 to 500 feet below grade. I am going to speculate that it was constructed during the DPW and big infrastructure era, from the 1920's to WWII. I had heard that it was ~8 feet in diameter, but I have been unable to find a source confirming that.
MATT-2AV
Matt- please e-mail me off-site. I have an idea for you!
Interesting point about combined sewers: Baltimore was the last city in the northeast to get sewers (many areas North, Northeast, South and Southeast did not get sewers until mid 1920's and in North and Northeast parts were WPA projects), so we have separate storm drains and sanitary sewers. The sewerage is processed at the Back River Sewerage Treatment plant, which was famed for the odors that tended to collect in the area (unpleasant for those passing through, ignored by the locals) until upgraded in the 1980's.
The storm drains empty to the Chesapeake Bay, the Harbor and the West Branch of the Patapsco River (the latter two do eventually empty to the Bay), so many storm drains are stenciled "Cheasapeake Bay Drainage" to discourage dumping of oil and toxic liquids.
Has anyone checked out the cd rom game Max Paine? There is a whole level that is located in the subway. It includes moving trains, token booths, control rooms, and the closed City Hall location.
1. I don't think there's the closed Coty Hall station.
2. WTF is Rosco street?
3. Stations are innacurate.
4. Transfers are innacurate.
5. There are only R32s.
6. R32s do not have multi-colored seats.
7. It's spelled Payne
Also, notice that the signs on the end of the trains says A. But the station is either 2,3 or 4 - all IRT lines. At least they have the line colors right on the columns. (red for 2,3 and green for 4) Plus the inside of the R32 has R62 seating. One more thing i never understood about the game.. You take the train to that station (Roscoe Street), but every train after that blows through the station?
I spent the weekend in Poconos and while we drove there, I noticed that several old stations are being renovated (Gouldsboro, East Stroudsburg ?? (next to rte. 80 near the bridge) Does anyone know, if it means that they are serious about the train to Poconos?
Arti
Consult this regularly: http://www.pennjerseyrail.org/
They are as serious as Janet Reno is about her run for Governor. Latest projected start-up date is 2005, but I'm thinking it'll be more like 2006. Also, some of those stations, such as Gouldsboro, are being restored by volunteer RR historical societies, and not by any government transit group.
That's the old Delaware Water Gap station that you overlook from I-80. I hope to God the Poconos does not get a commuter rail. There is already too much city element finding it's way to the Poconos via Martz Trailways.
It seems like everytime I watch the Ch.13 news on Blue Ridge Cable, there be some guy from Brooklyn or the Bronx who is wanted for some crime in the Poconos or Allentown. A train would only make things worse.
NIMBY ALERT!!!!!
And while you're at it, see if you can get the TA to close the Queens Blvd subway. There are too many of "THEM" riding it into Manhattan and spoiling the place.
What do I care? I don't live in Manhattan!
Obviously, you live in the Poconos.
No. I live in Queens. I do visit the Poconos frequently.
Don't you know me? I'm the poor Queens guy who suffers through needless weekend GO's?
That explains why you complain about things in both places.
Could you recommend a nice cheese to go with all of that whine.
avid
Unoriginal Varsity Blues ripoff:
“Do you want cheese with that wine?”
John
J
Hey LuchAAA,did you remember, on your way back from filing an employment application for MTA, to send your check to a hate group?
They're always looking for members who want to make sure that "elements" always stay "where they belong" so that "good" people stay pure and unspoiled.
Maybe there's a charter member special. And don't forget to advertise on the subway...
What does a hate group have to do with this? I'm just saying, there are too many city people coming up to PA. And with it, the Poconos has seen a significant increase in crime over the last ten years.
We all know what "city element" is code for.
could that be the N----- word?
Two incidents on the Martz line really soured my opinion on the Poconos. Both involved transplanted New Yorkers.
One involved a male white UPS worker. He was the most hated passenger on the bus line. Everyone knew him, or of him. One day, he crossed paths with the wrong person. When the bus arrived at Park and Ride, this guy got the living daylights beat out of him. Something that started on the bus spilled over to the bus terminal.
BOTH MEN INVOLVED WERE WHITE.
Another incident took place at the same stop. Park and Ride. It happend at about 4:45 am, while waiting for a Manhattan bound bus. Two people got into a dispute over a space on line. So one guy pulled out a knife and stabbed the other in the neck.
THE MAN WITH THE KNIFE WAS WHITE.
"City element" means transplanted New Yorkers.
IT was a question Luch,not a statement. sorry if I bent you out of shape.
I was born and raised in the Bronx and am of a Scottish/Irish background, left the city in 1974, live way upstate since. Amazingly the term "city element" is not a code word for "persons of color" or "people of hispanic origin" ... both ethnic groups are merrily living in areas outside the city.
"City element" generally describes ordinary white folk from the city who migrate into areas outside the city but bring along with them an attitude of beligerent, selfish behavior. Sorta like "foamers" on steroids. The behavior patterns include things ranging from LOUD motor-mouthing to pushiness to the tendency to point at other people and laugh, threaten people who pose no danger and in its most degenerative form, sneaking out into a pasture and trying to milk a bull.
Folks from the city do tend to stand out once you get 50 miles or more away. You can hear them for miles and the attitude tends to stand out as loudly as well. It's quiet out here and folks of all backgrounds tend to coexist with a generally mellow level of living. But I'd be willing to bet this is what the original poster meant.
You just described many of the Martz Bus riders, most of whom are transplanted New Yorkers.
Heh. Well, we SHOOT the beligerent up here ... us hicks don't screw around. Be mellow, give us your money fot the two weeks in summer we tolerate you (extra week of slack for bikers) and go home. Ya wanna LIVE here? Ya gotta smile then, mind your manners and show up for the Volunteer fire or ambulance squad.
It takes a while to get the city outta ya - best proposed way of doing it upstate is to spend 5/6 years in Ulster or Dutchess county to wean yourself from the trains and NYC TV stations, THEN move further out. Moo. :)
Speaking of TV, though it means nothing to you sourpuss New Yorkers, I just enjoyed the most delightful show on MetroTV - Subway Q&A. Though it has very little to do with the subway other than being filmed there, it was the most entertaining half-hour I've had since I got here.
Moo. (trying not to say "Heh") where would "here" be where "MetroTV" is available? Up here, "MetroTV" is a segment on all of the local stations of about 30 seconds of literally telephoned in traffic reports to cover our humongous 10 minute traffic jam at the thruway exits when the state lets Smallbany go home in the afternoon.
yeah,that exit24 can be a bitch,right?
Heh. It's a killer ... all the way back to exit 3 on I-90 every now and then. But nothing takes the cake like the Oliver Northway. :)
WOLF ROAD OFF RAMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, OK, compare that to the LIE, BQE or (yak!) The FDR. Kwitcherwhining. Heh. I'm down in Voorheesville just outside the Selkirk yards ...
NYC TV stations are actually regional. Almost every cable system between NYC and Albany carries them.
NYC is NOT available on the cable systems up in the Albany area and direct reception isn't possible. Not at the 160 mile marker. Now I have to admit, I can cheat and see most of NYC's TV stations, but that's because I have a bird bath on the roof and special waivers for "local TV" via satellite. We USED to have WPIX and before that WWOR on AOL/TimeWeenieCable, but the cable company now owns WB45 in Schenectady, so 11 got the heave-ho also.
On the birdie though, I get 2,4,5,7 and "we are 13" ... 9 and 11 are no shows but no loss. We also receive 41 and 47 but again, only because I have a dish and special waivers from the local broadcasters. Morbid curiosity often makes me tune in also every now and then because after all, the pix from the birdie are digital ...
The dividing line for coverage though on cable of city stations is at New Paltz/Poughkeepsie ... north of there, it's the Albany stations:
WRGB CBS 6
WTEN ABC 10/19
WNYT NBC 13
WXXA FOX 23
WMHT PBS 17
WEWB WB 45
WVBG UPN 25
WYPX PAX 55
WRNN IND 62
WEDG UPN 4
So NYC's influence is completely lost up here, typical of our local major network newscasts, "Our top story tonight, two cows found dead in Guilderland." It's a completely different world out here. Much happier. More fundamentally blue ... and green ... and electric pink. Definitely not the kind of place where you can work your way up to a bust blood vessel. Aside from the "city element" causing multi-car pileups on the major roads after forcing their land yacht through three lanes of traffic in ten feet. :)
Just curious. What radio stations do you listen to?
There's a jazz station at 104.9 - since SFX/Clearchannel and some other national chain have divided up the 22 FM's and 11 AM's here between the two of them, no point in owning a radio other than for the jazz station. Even the COLLEGE stations bite ... so it's that, seedys or the muzaks off the birdbath (Musicchoice) ...
CD and MP3 players are widely used up here.
Agreed. I listen mostly to CD101.9 here in NY. I thought you might listen to the Edge, or some other local station.
Nah, "Edge" is one of 11 ClearChannel FM's, as boring as a bowling ball with cheezy talent and the same ten songs. I've already filled my coupon book lifetime dose of Pink Floyd's "the Wall," thank ya. :)
we still get channel 11 news at 10pm on the WPIX station[for NYC NEWS]
Are you on AOL/TimeWeenie (formerly Capital Cable) ? I had heard a couple of years ago that once they bought WB45, 11 was dead meat. I got so fed up with cable being down more often than up and having customer service that put the army to shame, snipped the wire off the pole, called them and told them to come get it and went with a bird bath. Haven't regretted going with DirecTV for a nanosecond.
Now if we could just get just ONE of those trains we've been paying for to make stops here, we'd be phat city.
COW COUNTRY MOOO.....
Yeah, after a while an udder begins to feel like an R9 handle.
A farmer is sitting in the neighborhood bar getting soused. A man
comes in and asks the farmer, "Hey, why are you sitting here on
this beautiful day getting drunk?"
Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
Man: So what happened that's so horrible?
Farmer: Well, today I was sitting by my cow milking her. Just as I
got the bucket bout full, she took her left leg and kicked over
the bucket.
Man: Ok, but that's not so bad.
Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
Man: So what happened then?
Farmer: I took her left leg and tied it to the post on the left.
Man: And then?
Farmer: Well, I sat back down and continued to milk her. Just as I
got the bucket about full, she took her right leg and kicked over
the bucket.
Man: Again? Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
Man: So, what did you do then?
Farmer: I took her right leg this time and tied it to the post on
the right.
Man: And then?
Farmer: Well, I sat back down and began milking her again. Just as
I got the bucket about full, the stupid cow knocked over the
bucket with her tail.
Man: Hmmm...
Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
Man: So, what did you do?
Farmer: Well, I didn't have any more rope, so I took off my belt
and tied her tail to the rafter. In that moment, my pants fell
down and my wife walked in..... Some things you just can't
explain.
HA! You know ,im in the Capitol District myself.
hey i just had to cast out my line and see what i could catch,right? I'M a former city dweller myself, and with saying that,im definetly not the loud type. I prefer the country life,the peace and quiet. CAN'T stand the ''TUDES'' OR dirty looks[''HEY,DO YOU KNOW ME OR SOMTHIN''? DIN WHY YOU LOKKIN OVA HEAH?'']
You talking to me? Are YOU talking to ME? Heh. Yeah, I've got buddies from the city that live up here too and amusingly, some of them haven't changed since the Bronx. It's VERY amusing to watch how others react to this one guy only to find out that we used to live down the block from one another once.
The lifestyle is amazingly different between out here and in there and what's REALLY amusing is a lot of city folks move out to the burbs and never change a bit. You gotta get good and far away before you get snapped up in the different way of living ...
Unfortunately, that's also a stereotype. For every city boy who is belligerent, there's a match in the form of a country "hillbilly" whose behavior is no better - different, but equally obnoxious, and just as devoid of social skills.
The fact is, some people don't have good social skills. It makes no difference whether they begin in the city or in the country. Well-educated city dwellers, esp. in places like NY or Philly, may have an advantage in that they are already exposed to a lot of different kinds of people. Take someone who has never been around anyone different than himself, put him in a big city, and he's got a potential problem (but not always a disaster; some adapt better than others).
From the number of posts I see on this thread,, it's obvious this ignorant nonsense is going to be batted back and forth ad nauseum. So this will be my last post on it. The "city element" and "country element" are both stereotypes, and judging Martz line riders by incidents reported in the newspaper only shows the incredible ignorance and prejudice of the poster.
Do you guys think you could knock it off and come back to some semblence of reality?
Yeah, you're right ... but largely country folks are a bit quieter (not as much noise to try to be heard over) and the good news is we keep most of the "doublewide" population over in "scenic Rensselaer county" so most of the area is safe. Heh. Sorry, couldn't help myself.
No problem. Thanks for letting me vent...
If I actually have to explain that to you, well, maybe we should just let this thread drop and move on...
Agreed.
But remember, the next time you hear or see an ad for LTS builders trying to sell a Poconos home to New Yorkers, I'll be cursing up a storm.
But remember, the next time you hear or see an ad for LTS builders trying to sell a Poconos home to New Yorkers, I'll be cursing up a storm.
Do you own a house in the Poconos? If so, you should be very happy that New Yorkers are buying in the area. Without that demand, prices (and therefore your equity) would be a lot lower.
You know, the next time I come up from South Jersey to vist the Water Gap (and the DL&W main) I am going to make a point of littering just to SPITE you.
Umm..yeah, that's real mature. Spite one person out of thousands who don't think the same way.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's the old Delaware Water Gap station that you overlook from I-80. I hope to God the Poconos does not get a commuter rail. There is already too much city element finding it's way to the Poconos via Martz Trailways.
It seems like everytime I watch the Ch.13 news on Blue Ridge Cable, there be some guy from Brooklyn or the Bronx who is wanted for some crime in the Poconos or Allentown. A train would only make things worse.
Yes, a rail line to NYC might bring some "bad elements" into the Poconos, though most of the fears are grossly overblown, but it will also bring more and more taxpaying, home-owning commuters who will make the area more prosperous. If it weren't for the Poconos' proximity to NYC, the area surely would be a lot less prosperous than it already is - in fact, it might look a lot like Sullivan County (which most definitely isn't a hotbed of wealth). Indeed, if the Poconos gets more commuters via the rail line, it will start developing its own independent economic base, as happended years ago in most of the closer-in 'burbs. A win-win proposition.
I disagree...
A lot of the reasons to move to that area would be lost. The taxes would get higher because of the increase in school children, the need for larger police forces, fire departments, and other municipal services. The car insurance would also go up, and the area would just be more crowded. A little influx of people, sure; but packing them in just turns it into a suburb. As far as the rail line goes, I don't think it will be that much of a bargain. As it stands now, it will not run directly into Manhattan because of the existing rail traffic through the Hudson River tunnel. It will run into Hoboken, and it will make a number of stops in Jersey along the way. You'd still be better off riding the Martz bus, both in time and expense.
I disagree...
A lot of the reasons to move to that area would be lost. The taxes would get higher because of the increase in school children, the need for larger police forces, fire departments, and other municipal services. The car insurance would also go up, and the area would just be more crowded. A little influx of people, sure; but packing them in just turns it into a suburb. As far as the rail line goes, I don't think it will be that much of a bargain. As it stands now, it will not run directly into Manhattan because of the existing rail traffic through the Hudson River tunnel. It will run into Hoboken, and it will make a number of stops in Jersey along the way. You'd still be better off riding the Martz bus, both in time and expense.
Rapid population growth in the Poconos resulting from a commuter rail line will not necessarily translate into higher taxes. In fact, it might well have the opposite effect. Less-developed areas have lower demands for municipal and county services, that much is true, but they also tend to have lower tax bases. If the Poconos become more heavily developed, with commercial and industrial growth following the population, residential properties will have to shoulder a lower proportion of the tax burden than is now the case. Even with higher expenditures, the average homeowner might see lower taxes, and will of course benefit from increasing property values.
There is, of course, a separate issue - economics aside, is it desirable to turn a scenic, recreation-oriented area into yet another suburb? That's the sort of question that area residents will have to address, and it's quite likely that there will be bitter divisions of opinion. While my knowledge of the area is somewhat limited, it's my impression that the Poconos have ample undeveloped land, enough to accommodate a considerable amount of population growth and commercial development while maintaining an essentially rural character. The rail line might be the Poconos' opportunity to ensure that it won't be left with a Sullivan County-style economy, while at the same time not having to worry about Nassau County-style suburban sprawl.
In all this, of course, I'm assuming that the rail line will make commuting from the Poconos even more attractive than currently is the case with Martz Bus and the Port Jervis line. It does sound as if the line won't be an ideal commuting solution, but I caution against rushing to judgment.
Very well put, Peter.
The rail line may lead to a lawsuit like the one filed by Lakeland due to Midtown Direct being filed by MARTZ against NJT/Amtrak.
Wow, what a concept. Don't like mass transit? Sue 'em and extort some ransom.
Are Martz lines subsidized by the state of New Jersey? Maybe NJ could arrange for the subsidy to disappear...
Martz is a commuter bus line based out of Wilkes-Barre PA.
I know that. The question is, do they provide service in NJ that the state subsidizes?
Actually, they might. Martz services Newark, Panther Valley, and Hackettstown.
MARTZ is part of Trailways. TL's MARTZ pics are under Trailways.
hopefully this means steam excursions over the cut-off (tho i doubt we're that lucky)....it'd be something to see CP 2317 at a speed above 40....
even more off subject, but does anyone know if there are plans for RDG 2102, PRR 1361, or C+O 614?
Last nite I was waiting for a friend at Croton Harmon. A southbound Amtrak came through. The last car was an old style New York Central coach, obviously renovated. It had a kitchen, a real dinning room complete with set table and lounge. The end had the open deck with people sitting on it. It was very cool! Any ideas what or why this was?
There is a company that runs private charters of the equipment you described. They usually ride on the end of Amtrak consists. This is more than likely what you saw.
Peace,
ANDEE
Believe it or not people do own their own RR cars and move them on the end of Amtrak trains (as well as companies as Andee stated).
It was a PV (Private Varnish). Varnish meaning the coats of varnish applied to the Pullman Palace cars from the early 1900's. Some people have money to own and operate private rail cars.
Virginia Division - BMT
There's a slide show showing various photos from opening day, 1979. I don't know what made them do this today, since June 30th is the opening day, but it's still cool.
i regret to inform you guys that the museum has closed for renovations. Anyways when it reopens, being that i am a volunteer for them, they will call me and i will let all of you know when it reopens
so
What about the store?
Isn't the store a separate entity?
the Grand Central store will remain open
I'm talking about the store under Schermerhorn Street.
It certainly took them long enough to get the project started. Now let's see how long it takes for them to get it finished.
what is the approximate length of the project? Will it be months or years?
The museum is closed for renovations? Now do we guess which museum, which city or do we just assume?
I think he whas talking about the transit museum at Court street in Brooklyn.
What are they doing?
Their web page has information:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/museum/general.htm
How was the party ?
yes they had a little party, heypaul was going to bring his barbacue, i was going to bring some dogs, plus dougie and lou from brookly were going to bring themselves.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks. At least I won't waste a trip next month.
Some of us are fighting a rear-guard effort to change the LITP2000 plan on Long Island, so I'm going to be having some specific questions about currently operating systems to be used in support of testimony before legislators and/or be used on a website and such.
My first question is: what is SF Muni currently doing in respect of operating the various light rail lines into the Muni subway?
How many lines operate coupled together in the subway?
Which lines?
When running MU in the subway, how long are the trains?
When running MU in the subway, is there an operator in each unit?
Is coupling/uncoupling of different lines for subway running done at all times, or only certain hours?
How long does it typically take to uncouple units before leaving the subway/couple units when entering the subway?
How many personnel are needed other than the operators to accomplish the makeup/breakup?
Can you describe the procedure?
Does anyone have photos that could be used to illustrate?
I know that's a lot of questions, but any info is helpful. We bat about a lot of ideas on SubTalk. This is one opportunity where we might actually be able to make a difference.
Anyone with extra info or interest in this can contact me by posting here or by e-mail.
Thanks, guys!
1-The K-L-M Lines couple together at West Portal 2/ 2-4 Cars depends on what is at West Portal at the time 3-The operator stays on each car, the 1st car operator controls the train and doors. 4-If 2 or more lines meet then they couple and takes less then 1 minute to couple and uncouple and justb the operators, no one has to leave the train there is a guy outside who checks everything in a walk around
Are the connections fixed? I mean do they wait to assemble particular runs into a train, or do they just hook up whatever is coming in?
Usually hook up on what is coming in, maybe just a minute wait, otherwise they just go, sometimes a 2 or 3 car train, sometimes just a single car, whatever gets to West Portal at whatever time
>>> How many lines operate coupled together in the subway? Which lines? <<<
To fully understand the coupling on the Muni, it is necessary to understand the physical situation. The three lines involved, the L, K, and M run in a single tunnel from Embarcadero to the West Portal. At the West Portal they leave the tunnel to run on streets. The L immediately diverges on one street, and the K and M diverge very shortly thereafter. There are two other lines that run in the tunnel under Market Street, the J and N, but they do not go all the way to the West Portal but leave the tunnel at different intermediate points, and the N goes farther than Embarcadero in the other direction.
The coupling appears to happen only at rush hour. I say this because when I rode on a Sunday, I was on an M which entered the West Portal immediately after an L, with no coupling taking place. When there are a large number of trains running during rush hour, coupling the L,K, and M at the West Portal would effectively reduce the number of lines which have to merge under Market Street from five to three, allowing greater throughput under Market Street since the coupled cars are running with zero headway.
I do not know if the three lines run coupled in the outbound direction from Embarcadero. If they do, it could cause some passenger confusion since the same train pulling into a station under Market Street would have portions with different destinations. If I were running the Muni, I would uncouple the trains at Embarcadero and have them run separately outbound. Since the J and N diverge rather than merge on the outbound trip, there would be less chance of a traffic jam.
Tom
Since the arrival of the Breda cars and the Automatic Train Control system, MUNI no longer couples trains at West Portal (K, L & M) or Duboce and Church (J & N lines). The pre-1997 pattern was to couple what ever arrived after the first train at each junction with the next two-car set behind it. But the L and N run at a higher frequency than the other lines and they would never put together a four-car train from the same line. So often times, an L or an N would sit for several minutes until another different two-car set would arrive. Now with a mix of incompatible Boenings (fewer and fewer all the time) and Bredas there is no point coupling different lines together.
The J usually ran as a one-car line and the J/Ns were usually three-car runs.
The M often would be a one-car run as well.
Before the J extension to Balboa Park opened, three-car J/N sets would run inbound in revenue service on the K or M, then turn at the Embarcadero and then get uncoupled at Duboce and Church.
Also the Forest Hill platform, barely accomodates four-car trains, a four-car Breda set with opening end doors, might be too long for the platform there.
George Devine
San Francisco
So different lines are never coupled any more?
The V train is a load of bull shit.The only reason the V is running is because the F has to through the 63 Street tunnel.This is the first time in my 25 years on this earth that the F is diverted on a full time basis.And,when the V isn't running,wheres the F going to go?
A.Through the 63 street tunnel
B.Through the 53 street tunnel.And If B what's going to happen to the 63 street tunnel?
Doesn't that gives the MTA a need to add another train into Queens,befor anyone says something,I don't mean the Q.Just any train that can either Give the Queens passengers a choice(The B is pretty obsolete.The D canstill forfill it's normal service ad have some trains make local stops)The R is also obsolete between Queens and Manhatthan.The R could run through there.And this brings up an old question.
Is the Broadway express tracks north of 57 street going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection? Yes or no because in theory with the luck i's having the 2 Avenue line isn't getting built unless uncle sam can dsh out 10-20 billion for a subway line.
"The V train is a load of bull shit.The only reason the V is running is because the F has to through the 63 Street tunnel.This is the first time in my 25 years on this earth that the F is diverted on a full time basis."
How is this bullshit? You think no one needs the extra line to Manhattan? The E and F are at full capacity during the rush. They add this line to ease congestion. The F is not diverted. If it's full time it's not a diversion.
"And,when the V isn't running,wheres the F going to go?
A.Through the 63 street tunnel
B.Through the 53 street tunnel.And If B what's going to happen to the 63 street tunnel?"
The F will run through 63 Street full time.
"Doesn't that gives the MTA a need to add another train into Queens,befor anyone says something,I don't mean the Q.Just any train that can either Give the Queens passengers a choice(The B is pretty obsolete.The D canstill forfill it's normal service ad have some trains make local stops)The R is also obsolete between Queens and Manhatthan.The R could run through there.And this brings up an old question."
What the HELL are you talking about?
"Is the Broadway express tracks north of 57 street going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection? Yes or no because in theory with the luck i's having the 2 Avenue line isn't getting built unless uncle sam can dsh out 10-20 billion for a subway line."
It offers flexibility. Another way into Queens in case something messes up in the 60 Street Tunnel or Queens Plaza for the R or something.
His brain...... that's what's obsolete....
If your finish talkingabout yourself getto the point
When I speak in the 3rd person, I do not refer to myself.
And, I've already gotten to the point about that, uh, 6th av bull which you imagined out of thin air. You say the V is pointless, the B is unnesesary and the R shouldn't use the 60th st tunnel. I think that me stating that alone sums up any point that I could possibly make about your opinion on the 63rd/6th av plan.
what brain?
FUCK YOU
I believe I can rest my case, your honor. The defendant has clearly implicated himself despite being informed of his Fifth Amendment rights.
-Hank
Thats it Im getting this thread deleted
I am amazed that you have that kind of power.
-Hank
You know I had enough of your fucking sarcasm
I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps you should go for a long walk. I hear short piers are nice this time of year.
-Hank
uh oh. you and your sarcasm. better be careful, he might curse again!
The Joe
citzen of a sarcastic city.
No you haven't
you go right ahead and do that.
Rim shot.
Dan
Sorry, i don't do that in public. you have to buy me flowers and a nice dinner first in any case. =)
You've been: Besmirched!
hehehe!
I don't like that WORD!! Some People(Like Me!) Don't even like those NASTY WORDS!!
>>The V train is a load of bull shit.The only reason the V is running is because the F has to through the 63 Street tunnel.This is the first time in my 25 years on this earth that the F is diverted on a full time basis.And,when the V isn't running,wheres the F going to go?<<
>>A.Through the 63 street tunnel<<
>>B.Through the 53 street tunnel.And If B what's going to happen to the 63 street tunnel?<<
The correct answer is:
A!
Now that he's gotten the right answer, let's see what he's won!
A brand New Service Pattern!
Yes, the F will run express in queens and through the 63rd st tunnel all times (local nights). Whilst the V Makes local stops through the 53rd st tunnel weekdays.
>>Doesn't that gives the MTA a need to add another train into Queens,befor anyone says something,I don't mean the Q.Just any train that can either Give the Queens passengers a choice(The B is pretty obsolete.The D canstill forfill it's normal service ad have some trains make local stops)The R is also obsolete between Queens and Manhatthan.The R could run through there.And this brings up an old question.<<
Uh, how should I say this.....
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!
What you just stated is crap.
1. This whole D/B mess.
rush hours you need the B to be local on CPW. You suggest making some D trains make local stops. But you'd need to add many more D trains for that to work. And, how would you distinguish them. OH MY GOD!!!! THE B TRAIN DOES THIS!!!! (What the hell you mean by obsolete, I don't know. That whole 'some D make local stops' is bull)
2.The R is obsolete. The R is obsolete!! No!! It allows the people coming from Queens to reach Broadway and to transfer to the 4,5,6, the ONLY Queens Boulevard/Manhattan line allowing a transfer to the expresses on Lexington.
Sometimes, I wonder exactly what goes through that head of yours. The whole 63rd connector is supposed INCREASE service to Queens Boulevard. So, the V gives QB riders a whole new manhattan service, eliminating the G train. QB is getting a manhattan increase as it stands, you need to chill out here buddy.
Yor right but If the 63 street tunnel is going to increase service WHY take away G service
Why take away G service?
Because the point is to increase Queens Blvd. service to MANHATTAN. As it stands, the G does NOT go to manhattan, and most QB riders are headed there. The switching problems at 71st would mess up the whole local line if the G ran on QB.
So, now riders will get MORE service to manhattan.
It's almost impossible to explain to people that do not on the subway how hard it is to turn 3 lines at 71st.
Yes, it is a quick in and out thing and the crew gets no break.
No. It's hell for the towers when things go bad to salvage opposite direction service. You need an extra gap train taking up room and put ins from the yard become a bit more tricky.
I am doing a retraction on this story because I basically mixed up words from my point(I also steered away from my point)And I apoligize to J trainloco for calling him a ditz.Which still doesn't give him/her the right to call me an idiot.
>>I apoligize to J trainloco for calling him a ditz.Which still doesn't give him/her the right to call me an idiot<<
At which point did you call me a ditz/I call you an idiot. I clearly re-call saying that your brain was obsolete, and that you said I was talking about myself.
>>I basically mixed up words from my point(I also steered away from my point)<<
Seriously, you should start reading your posts man...
Or at least sobering up first.
-Hank
So much for COMPAQ adding beer-holders
to their keyboards.. gag!
All computers come with beer-holders built in. They're made by the "compact disc" corporation and they're automatic. You just push the button and it pops out, and push it again to retract it.
Dan
uh, huh huh. hey beavis, share your feelings with the group. uh, huhuhuhuh.
Wow, 25 and you never got through school. How sad.
The V is being added as an additional train from Queens to Manhattan. The F will run at all times via 63rd St. If a passenger needs to go to the the three stops on the 53rd St line that will no longer be served from 6th Ave, they will simply take a B or D train to 7th Ave and cross the platform for the E train. Passengers won't even need to climb the stairs. Can't recall what the F will do when the V is not running, but it likely won't revert to 53rd St.
-Hank
So what your saying,the E will operate on 53rd street alone from 9pm to 6am Monday to Friday and all weekends.right?
If you have d trains make local stops ...
IT IS A B TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Except during Rush hours where the D will be peak directions. Also, if you make a < Q > make local stops, it's a (Q) Train!
T 2 Avenue local
All times:Local from Laguadia airport to Woodrow.
U 2 Avenue express
Rush hour & Middays:Local in the Bronx,Express in Manhatthan and Staten Island from Gun hil Road to Richmond Avenue
Other times:Local in TheBronx,Express in Manhatthan from Gun Hill road to City hall
X 2 Avenue Epress
Rush hour and Middays:Express in the Bronx and Manhatthan,local in Brooklyn from 3 Avenue/Fordham plaza to Seaview Avenue or Atlantic Avenue.Note:Seaview Avenue trains run express in Brooklyn Peak direction only.
Other Times:Express in Manhatthan,local in Brooklyn from 125 Street-Atlatic or Seaview Avenue.
Y 2 Avenue local
Rush hour and Middays:Local from 125 street to City Hall.
Actually one of the plans is to run the 2nd Av line along a portion of the Amtrak ROW to Co-Op City in the Bronx with 3 stops in the community: Einstein Center, Bartow Center and Dreiser Center.
Gun Hill Road has enough subway service. We need direct subway service in Co-OP City.
While at 34th street and World Trade Center stations last week, I noticed that instead of staying on the same train to go back uptown, both the T/O & C/R went on a different train that arrived a few minutes later. Do the T/O’s & C/R’s still have to do this on lines where trains arrive at terminals every 20 minutes (like most lines at night, or the A in the Rockaways), and at terminals with a loop instead of a crossover (Bowling Green, South Ferry, Brooklyn Bridge)? Thanks for any info in advance,
B63Mike
At the loops, the same crew stays on the train, since these are not terminals in the usual sense. Otherwise most crews do drop back at a terminal. Exceptions include Times Sq on the Flushing line annd 14 St/ 8 Ave on the Canarsie line.
Thanks
It gives the a chance to use the little boy's room,
or whatever their plumbing preferences may be.
Elias
Look at what someone is selling on eBay as being from the Second Avenue EL... Looks a lot like an R-9 handle to me!!
Click Here to View Item
That's a Manhattan El car "strap" ...
Except that it is not from an el car. Clearly it is a strap from an R1-9 series car. IRT cars were similar, but were round, where as on this on the grip is trangular. IINM el cars had leather straps for this purpose.
Elias
Geez ... you're right ... just went and looked again myself. I was thinking of the latter cars on there but yeah, the arm is too long also. Whoops!
YOoooo- SELKIRK (Kevin)
ELIAS IS RIGHT - The IRT Low V, High V, and Gibbs (*)and Composite(*) cars (ALL IRT subway cars from 1902 SEE (*) thru 1938)---had rounded bottom porcelan coated
steel "hand grabs", sprung to return to"center" position as provided by the carbuilder - BUT (*)
note that Composite cars AS BUILT in 1902-3 and Gibbs cars (steel) of 1903-4--- prior to their center door upgrading around 1909-11 had LEATHER el car straps factory installed. These were replaced during center door upgrading along with removal of original link & pin couplers for the newer IRT "J" (Janney) couplers ---with the sprung, steel - round porcelan types at that time. Prior to the "improved" steel Deck Roof Hi-V subway cars (only 50 built for the IRT) of 1908, which were the first to have the sprung steel porcelan-coated grab handles) - the only straphanger equipment manufactured were the leather straps hanging (and swaying as the car rocked and rolled) loosely on steel rods. ALL BRT/BMT el cars - ALL IRT El cars ---had these straps of leather to their ends of service...remember the Q types up to 1969? The BMT Standards and the SIRT cars had a round-bottom porcelan coated strap also. The D type units had short, sectional longitudal "bars" porcelan coated spaced at intervals, similar if not identical to the later Multi-(BMT) section articulated units...no "sprung" graps on those two type articulated units.
NOTE: RE: BMT El Cars - The C-type rebuilt units also had the sectional porcelan-coated steel longitudal standee bars which replaced their leather straps in their 1923 rebuilding from El Gate cars.
THE STRAP IN THE EBAY PHOTO >IS< AN R-1/9 type ONLY.
The IND R-10's had a modern stainless steel "curved handle" grab with a flat bottom..along with IND R-7 Hybrid 1575....followed by the stainless steel longitudal "bars" on the R-11 (BMT/IND Budd Cars) and IRT R-12, 14 & 15 with similar longitudal "bars" along the ceiling for standing
passengers to hold on to - not comfortable with an un-moving bar your arm held on to as the train swayed, lurched and careened around curves and switches...as compared with the individual "sprung"
units that allowed some passenger movement along with the swaying of the cars. The IRT R-17's and BMT/IND and IRT cars onward reverted to the R-10 type stainless sprungs grab-handles up to the R-42's at which point I end this...I believe the unweilding longitudal bars are used on rolling stock past that point..but dont quote me past the R-46's.
Kevin (Honarks' Pigway AKA Selkirk) - SHAME on you for your post re: "its an el car strap...!" - an OLD head (heh,heh) like you who RAN those oven-roaster
smoking DeSoto's, (or Hudsons, Packards) R-1/9 cars- and saw those hand grabs a million times on YOUR babies... enroute to your phone-booth cab (wonder if Superman ever used a MM cab to change "suits" in absence of a phone booth!??)---how could you NOT remember them,,,I'm sure you must have clunked your head on a few in your in-car duties over the years on the IND of your good service under the Tee-Dooouble-OOooou (TWU-Mike Quill, your hero!).
Yes, the City's IND had to devise a "better" hand grab than the tried and true IRT type - even if the
hand-held type was flat compared to IRT/BMT/SIRT round bottom...just to be different. Otherwise we would NOt have been able to identify THAT ebay strap
(2nd Ave El...yeah, right!!!) (heh,heh,heh, arrrgh)
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
joe... i just read your exposition on straps from the early cars, and as usual i think you are full of crap... you're making most of this stuff up, and no one here knows enough to catch you on this... i however am fully knowledgable on all subjects relating to subway cars... i acquired this knowledge from a correspondence course on subways that i took from the southwestern correspondence school...
uh joe... i hope you realize i'm putting you on... i can almost hear you cursing at me when i challenged what you said...
i came very close to soiling my pants when you let kevin have it... i personally think he banged his head too many times on those r9 hand holds... i think he has a clear case for worker's compensation from the mta, even after 25 years...
the real reason i am sullying myself by posting here is to find out if you will be at the king of prussia traction show on saturday... i was looking at your website, and couldn't really make out if you were going to be there... you plugged your own show come next year, but it wasn't clear whether you would sitting in your chair showing your video tape and cursing everyone out...
hey... i took out a set of lionel trains that had been sitting in the closet for about 20 years... i set up a simple oval, after looking up in a couple of track books to see how to do it... the track wasn't rusted, but it was far from clean... i put the sante fe diesel, not my original lionel engine, on the track and really had a blast watching it go around and see all the sparks flying from wheels and the center contactor... i bet your layout doesn't arc and give off a nice ozone smell...
joe... have you ever been in b&h photo on 34th & 9th ave... they have a truly amazing conveyor belt, elevator system of delivering things from all parts of the store to the front counters... i would love to put one of your miniature cameras on a basket and film it going around the system... that set of conveyor belts and elevators must be worth half a million dollars or more...
by the way... when the **** are you going to have those videos of your lay-out ready for public constipation... i sometimes imagine you laughing your *** off at all the guys who are waiting for them to come out.... paul
Heyyyy-- Heypaul (Yo- Teach---) - Hey---welcome back to the site - I've been away from it myself for a while...guess your head is filled with GM Greyhound diesel smoke fumes - I know you probably like to ride in the back seat near the crapper - and listen to the rear axle hypoid gear noises and singing tires and air brake cylinder sounds of a Greyhound stinkmobile----now get some of that fragrant eau-de-subway air to clean out that diesel gas from your sinuses (heh, heh - burppp)---Yeah - when I read the first few lines of your post my dander started to glow red like, what the &^%@# is he saying---and then I realised you were joking.
Yeah...my NYCMTS rolling stock makes some Ozone gas when my motor and wheel bearing oil gets hot and "burns" - but my systems power needs are like-- my O-scale or proto 600V compared to Lionel Scale or Proto 3000 volts) - I mean --a neighbor of mine's Lionel gondola derailed on a train running at normal speed (his idea - very FAST to me..!) after he went upstais to answer the phone and his steel wheels were WELDED to the tinplate track (with a soft, drooping gondola car-end above) - now Thats AMPERAGE. I run on that sissy 0-18 V-DC (Ie: "scale 600v??!) at max 2 to 3 amps for a many-motored train of 6 or so cars.
Yes, I will be dropping by Saturday to have lunch with some of my NYCMTAssn Group at the KoP show - but have to work Saturday night - big gig - so will leave by 4PM to get north the Sumneytowne area on N Rte. 202.
I will give you more details by email...so we can meet again.
Me? Cursing at the (my group's) show // MOI???
Never -except to foamers and loons (heh heh) --only when someone wants to rewind one of my sample tapes behind my back and presses REC instead of PLAY and then asks me why there is NO PICTURE (flamer-loon)
I know my models (120 something) I displayed at my show last year (all the NYCT transit O-Scale stock) are great, but some people (!?) of androidian
characteristics just wont take NO for an answer re:
are the models for SALE...whine, moan, bang my ears off---foam curling from corners of their mouth...etc.----but I'm just a "train dude" type of nice guy--really - you know me...but I will have a surprise (to give to) for you at the KoP show - details in my email. I will be going as a visitor to drop in and see my guys (NYCMTA) and maye buy a few books or videos- and suck up some gin at the bar.
If you want to visit my system...perhaps Sunday if you are in town...we can talk about that.
Yeah---Selkirk (Kevin) changed the sign of a kind, gentle, loving family-operated (heh, heh, har-de-har) store in our old Bronx "hood" from Hoenigs Parkway TO HONARKS PIGWAY by re-arranging some of the very large red plastic wood-backed sign letters' He had an accomplice as a cover, the Third Ave. El's 204th St. Station and cover of night-time...and he lived across the street. Oh, that was 30 years ago - store and neighborhood long gone these days. Kev's an OK guy - no matter what they say here (or kilfile) re; him...
Another thing--stop soiling all your (two pairs of) pants...learn some control--(kidding) ---see you at KoP and we'll talk - I should be there by noon Saturday - God willing et al.
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
>>>... - store and neighborhood long gone<<<
STORE...long gone, yes.....NEIGHBORHOOD...still alive and kicking I oughta know...I've lived there for the past 20+ years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi ANDEE - yes - what I meant was MY/OUR long-past time period of that neighborhood incorporating people who lived in that and other Bronx neighborhoods 30, 40 or 50 years ago who WE older
guys like Selikirk (Kevin) --Myself, Roger Arcara
(an old friend, Bronx guy, transit historian and author...died a few years ago - bad clock)...knew and/or socialized with...most who have, like myself,Selkirk, etc., moved away. I can NOT go to any neighborhood I lived in from the 1940's thru 1970 (when I left NY) up to visits circa 1980 and find ANYONE I knew who still lived in the old areas...all moved up and out---I did not mean to imply that the physical infrasturcture of your neighborhhood was gone---but most residential units
and stores (like Hoenigs etc etc) have changed hands many times since 30 + years ago - older inhabitants of then either moved or died off...with a small few probably still around ---this is just a saga of life, making it ($) - moving up and out to better trappings - getting older - newer people following into units vacated time after time until there are few of the old timers from the past left. My mother lived (until she died) in her upper East side apt. for 45 years - as did most of her fellow-tenants (25 to 40 years) but in the last 10 years her building has completely
lost all its (from the 40's and 50's) original tenants and her apartment has changed hands 6 times in 15 years --I know NO one NOW in the building I was associated with for 45 years ---many of whom I knew continuously in that building for 40+ years - all gone now --I would be a stranger to all the inhabitants of that building today ---so I think you now can get my point....ahem...even the 3rd Ave El I rode in your Bedford Park neighborhood was gone before you moved there !!!
God --The Bronx EL will be gone 30 years in mid 2003 - and Manhattan branch 50 years in mid 2005 - and I rode em both quite a lot!!! Andee--gotta close now---I'm feeling OLD!!! Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
heypaul / Joe / anyone else going to the KoP show Saturday...
Do stop by my table at the KoP show Saturday and say hi ... It's the table w/ the 20" TV at eye level running (what else) subway videos .... I'll be wearing either a black N/R shirt or a blue 4/5 shirt.
--Mark
hey joe... glad to hear that your dandruff started to glow red when you read the beginning of my post... i like to rattle everyone's cage a little bit..
"I know you probably like to ride in the back seat near the crapper - and listen to the rear axle hypoid gear noises and singing tires and air brake cylinder sounds of a Greyhound stinkmobile"
i don't know who's been telling you stories about how i ride greyhound... but whoever it was, doesn't know anything about my likes and dislikes... while it's true that i like to sit in the back of the bus right next to the restroom, i have no interest in the sounds that come from the rear end of the bus or from the tires or the air that comes from the brake cylinders... i do get some perverse pleasure in the sounds and smells that come out of the restroom itself... seriously, i sit in the back and try to recover some of the expenses of my trip by selling nail clippers, pocket combs, one shot lysol spray cans, hot lemon moistened towels, small rubber duckys for young children to play with in the toilet's holding tank, as well as hamburgers and frankfurters that i cook to order on my propane gas grill...
also... don't keep throwing up the time i thought that your vcr at the show was an air conditioner... i pressed "rec" hoping that your area would be cooler using recirculated air...
being a cheap skate by nature, i'm not sure whether i am going to go to the FREE new jersey transit show in hoboken, which seems to be getting worse every year or make use of the last days of the greyhound pass to head down to king of prussia where i will have to pop for $10 just to get in the front door...
you wouldn't happen to have any free passes?? or is there a special price for aging baby boomers?? i know that there are special prices, since last year i saw a sign that said
ADULTS $10
SUBTALKERS $25
Geeee-heypaul
Seems like you are running a mobile "ride by dog"
(Greasehound) multi-cultural 7-11 store on the busses - you do HAVE a 7-11 mercantile license available from foreign-coin-use only select
vending machines at select midtown-only subway stations---dont you? Shame on you - I know how you hate to part with any coins - even (especially)
non-USA monetary items (heh)
Yeah---Ed Davis (I think) told me story years ago about a momma
pounding on his cab door (dont remember division - route or euipment - probably IND) because her little kid had to "go potty" and she wanted the "occupant"
(Motorman Ed - tho she didnt know the "occupant" taking too long to exit was really operating the damn train) to hurry up (as he found out when he opened the cab door---to HER surprise) so her kiddie could "pee-pee"! (Poor kid---we've all been there in close quarters at one time or another) Ed could have loaned her his standard-cab-equipment regulation TWU approved 7-11 "relievement" styro-cup...I never got the finale of the story - guess they exited at next station --quickly.
Like wow - nifty kiddie occupier--plastic "made just right size and gov't approved" duckies for toilet-floating...sell a lot of those --do ya!!
How about chips, coffee-cakes, Papaya juice... maybe those little packets of peanut butter crackers - you know - tiny snack items I read you are fond of passing out....for a small stipend of course!
You can get them REALLY CHEAP at the "6-month old and over odd- lot-Wholesalers Distributors & Vendors outlet at the Harlem River around 132nd street Bronx--look for the Earl Sheib blue-& brown colored painted l958 straight-body truck with the hand painted signs (name above) on both sides(you can spot it right off because all the "S" letters are backward and it has only 3 of the 4 rear tires (duals) &...2 guys with some kind of towels wrapped around their heads (must be to soak up sweat on hot days, I guess)
A word to the wise - its cash and carry-they dont take credit cards---or checks - dont cut yourself on the 6 or so abandoned autos they have surrounding the truck to disguise it and make it blend in-- inconspicuously --to the site ---and the dog - dont pet the dog or get tooo close---filthy thing--some kind of odor---snarly type w/ brownish fangs.
and - anyway - you will be set up with looow-cost edibles (snacks for re-sale) for many bus trips to come!!
Re: the KoP - you could get into the hotel-employees
housekeeping unit facilities and "borrow" a porters uniform (pea green pants & tan shirt) and a pail w/ rags and cleaning materials - and saunter into the room for free...past the registry desk while wiping down the walls with a rag as you slip past the table...you know...covertly...and once you are in - just ditch the hotelery crap & bucket (or use it as a "basket" for your purchases)...hey - you can probably leave later and walk out wearing the uniform - free shirt and pants - rugged material for
back of bus store-setups (spills n' things)
and those long abandoned RoW bramble filled excursions!!
Aw...come on down...I'll buy you a glass of water (with ice cubes) at the hotel bar when I have my gin drinks...I know they have FREE peanuts on the bar (the kibble in bits in those bar-bowls) - you can have my lunch "soup crackers" ---we can use your ice cubes to "stretch" my soup---we can share for the price of one...---hey ---I'll see you there - wait for my email--regards - Joe
joe...i try to keep the selections of items down to a minimum, otherwise people start getting very picky... this way, they buy what i have or they can go hungry...
i like your idea of getting into the show for free... it'll be easy, as i already dress like a porter... all i'll need is the bucket and a couple of thick rags to clean up with... "is that some dust on your display table?? let me wipe it off before anyone notices"... i can add a few pcc's to my collection real cheap that way... say joe, just between you and me, do the dealers have any electronic tags in their items that will go off if they aren't deactivated at time of sale??
about saturday... which is the worse bunch of railfans to be around? the ones at hoboken who are getting in for free or the people who are paying $10 a pop to look at models that are going to cost hundreds of dollars??... then again, if it's a railfan, there isn't much of a difference...
>>>...do the dealers have any electronic tags in their items that will go off if they aren't deactivated at time of sale?? <<<
Don't worry Paul, I have a deactivator.........
(heypaul slips andee 2 $20's)
Peace,
ANDEE
What about squezzing heypaul for a Ben Franklin (no, not the 5 cent piece)?
BMTman
Nah, now you would be eligible for the franklin rate...heypaul gets a discount...
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder what the bus driver had to say about Haypaul's gas grill.
hey steve... i know how to handle hound drivers... i gave him 2 free franks and some lemonade... no problemo
During my first ride on an AA train on May 7, 1967, my father once asked out of curiosity if the motorman's cabs were johns. True story. I replied I didn't think so.
All depends on how you look at the crew sheet and the car assignment. :)
This was a train of old timers. Even the side destination signs were backlit. All I know, all those marvelous sounds had me mesmerized. On top of that, those little recessed handholds on the door leaves looked very tempting. I came this close to pulling on them.
Those were for the benefit and amusement of the hammerheads only. :)
And just to show where I was back then, I thought the compressors were actually internal combustion engines idling.
A ride on an RDC would have straighted that out for ya. Heh. As a former motorman, the sound of those compressors NOT shutting down causes sphincter tingle. The consist that did me in didn't shut down either ... air leaks galore ... it was comforting when they STOPPED every now and then with their ptoo ptoo ppptoo pfffrp ... Heypaul's train didn't sound all that happy if you knew what they were supposed to sound like ... and I swear I also hear a worn kingpin in there too - dangerously worn ...
Say, Paul, all you need to do now is run your Lionel train from your motorman's cab.:-)
Heh. Yeah, I can't believe I got that one wrong either. Shows ya what more than 30 years away and not yerking off to subway cars will do to ya. :)
Yeah, go ahead ... rub my nose in it. I can only plead brain damage on that one. I knew it looked like what I was used to but somehow I thought I had seen those on the 3rd Avenue el cars (the old Q's) but once I went and looked, saw pix of beat up leather. Then I thought maybe LoV's, nope. When I went to eBay to look the first time, all I saw was the picture on top - hadn't noticed the others with the curved mount that would have given me a better clue.
So yeah, I deserve to have my face in it for that one. All I can say is as you get older, it's the mind that goes first. Good thing it ain't a vital organ. :)
YOooo Kevin; (MMMooooo---burp)
Nah--your brain cells are not that far gone yet --you only had a few years on sucking up Eau de IND Ozone on those battleships you piloted - hell, you only crinkled and chipped the grime off an anticlimber at CIY ---imagine if you hit a Q-type el car!!! HEY--did you "crack" the cab window with your head --or not - that glass probably cost as much then to replace as those famous $600 a-piece US government purchased toilet seats and $3.99 per bulb reverse-screw transit incandy light bulbs (made in Bosnia??!!) Remember the cretin natives who thought of replenishing their home light fixtures with TA bulbs by stealing them back in the late 60's--early 70"s --I caught a couple of kids doing that in my beloved Low V's on the Lex WH PL RD line in '68.
When all those subhuman thrifty-ites got their treasured bags-full of purloined bulbs home - Voila!!--damnnnn - mofo%%$#@$& treads be on wrong - and after the word got out over time thru the subhuman networks that "de bulbs don-work--sheeet"- remember the rash of broken platform light bulbs - these clowns would walk along the platforms on the els (for some reason--mostly the els) with a small
solid object and smash bulb after bulb on the platform length. Enter the CAGES for bulbs era--those tiny wire cages to encase bulbs. Its a wonder they didnt get the idea to steal THOSE to sell "cheap, mon--" as rooftop drain downspout
strainers-protectors ---oh well, heypaul would get a laugh--he probably remembers. Ever wonder why some of your R-1/9 Nash Ramblers had many empty bulb sockets on night runs???
Heyyy...brain cells - you are smelling toooo much methane up there in Patunker-land - horse and cow MOOO--NUUURE (Manure) along with those wayward
pet skunks the locals let out at night for romps - who get flattened by passing cars & trucks by moonlite! (heh--heh ) Yall need to get back down to the City to suck up some of that multi-nutritional effervescent
"city air" ---hit the subways for some forced air
ventilation---maybe hit a TA "restroom or two" for old times sake---vent some excess Patunky-imbibed fluidics there - stop at GCT shuttle platform for a $3.50 hotdog ---maybe take a nostalgia trip to "the site of Honarks next to the invisible (but still there we know) 3rd Ave El (ANDEE (subwaysurf) says Honarks is in the great Pigway in the sky now) - and - hey...cruise the old hood by foot and look up old
neighbors and friends for a hoisting of a few brews at the local pubs---then take a nostalgic tour around 207th Street yards---sniff the fragrant Harlem River beachfront - stroll the pale-beige sands along the shore (all 10 grains of them left) at the foot of 207th St.)..and head back up the Deeeegan
Killway back "upstate'...home sweet (Patunky) home!
(heh, heh---just squeezing them for you a bit - all in fun---good to hear back from you)---PS - did you hear--- one of my friends from the TA took 2 of my O-scale IRT R-33 WF (single unit) cars from my private production (not MTH cars) run - painted them Redbird colors - - weighed them with one real railroad spike each - and sunk them in his TA office fishtank at the Bronx lay-up yard he works in -resin floats in water - thus the "spike" weights needed.
The large fishtank was missing some needed artificial reefs (THE STORY is true BTW)
Lastly - did your wife just love the trackside full tunnel volume audio of heypauls IND tapes as much as your neighbors did?? 45 minutes of screaming -wailing bull & pinion gears and loud groans of R-1/9 Desoto accelerations....(LOL) Try headphones next time at same volume -that will shake up the brain cells - make you think you're in the cab again - good for kicking around the molecular cell structures - exercse those "cules"--and in private!
Till next time - chow - regards - Joe @
NYCMTS (heh-heh!!)
Heh. Yeah, I hit my poor wittle haid on the glass. Cracked it too (the glass, nobody cared about my head) ... *TOLD YA* I had brain damage. :)
If I had hit a Standard, I would have been worried - fortunately it was another battlecruiser and yeah, the metal bent a bit and chips of dust DID fall off along with a bit of rust but overall, didn't crinkle all that much. I was told the couplers and mounts were junked though.
As to the bulbs, most of the cars I had were indeed lit - one of the most amusing exercises I remember was having the cab door open on the northbound CPW and I noted out of the corner of my eye that the car lights were getting brighter and brighter to the point where I had to close the door a bit, then darkness. Since the bulbs were I think 33 volters in those cars, all strung in series - if a bulb failed, it'd just shunt, upping the ante on the others until critical mass was reached. Then Foomp! I do remember hearing a breaker drop out when that happened and it didn't want to go back on.
And as to the manure (or as WE prefer to call it, "fresh country scent") *NOTHING* beats the stink coming from the state capitol. Even the cows are pulling their udders up over their snouts. Paul's tape needs to be played over the state agency fire public address system. I just might have to sneak up there one of these days - I know where the plug-in for the "Capital Police" (that's what they call themselves, spelling is not on the civil service test) is and it feeds all buildings including the Senate ... sorry to hear a lovely run of R33WF's is swimming with the fishes - you have some sicker freinds than I, bro ... but then again in 30 years, YOURS will still be intact down there. Heh.
You need a nice, beefy power amp to really appreciate those R-1/9 sounds. My MacIntosh does a nice job there.
Computer or tube amp? I am confused, hallelujah.
Neither. It's an MC2500 solid state, 500-watt/channel stereo power amp. Weighs 129 pounds. Bridgeable mono. Can drive loads as low as 2 ohms. Answers Clara Peller's "Where's the beef?" question.
Is this one of those lovely, huge, classic MacIntoshes stuffed full of tubes?
-Robert King
Here's what an R1/9 brake handle looks like (although they didn't have the bicycle grip on them as standard issue - looks like Heypaul was folling around with it):
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/handles/rtypebrake.gif
This seller has over 1600 positive feedbacks. This by itself should give any prospective bidders complete confidence in this seller.
Yeah, but he doesn't know the exact details of his piece; and how do we know that 1200 of those are buys, and 400 sales?
-Hank
Well I must admit this seems to be an HONEST seller - If you check the description now he/she changed it to eliminate the reference to the second avenue el. I wrote to them earlier explaining the item.
Just because there are 1600 positive feedbacks doesn't mean that the seller is a railfan and knows what they are describing to 100% accuracy.
Good tip: Do your homework by always following up with a private email to the seller inquiring as to any additional information about their knowledge of a particular sale item prior to the placing of bids.
BMTman
Do you think it will ever be able to build the ind second system with connection to staten island?
How much would it cost?
a couple of billions
The cost of a tunnel (or bridge) from Staten Island to Brooklyn would be at least $2.5 billion exclusive of any connections to existing lines. A Staten Island-Manhattan tunnel would be over $4 billion.
There is a less expensive alternative -- connect Staten Island rail to New Jersey and then go via Penn Station or PATH.
why not raise 500 billion dollars to biuld a bigger system to nj and long islang and westchester all in the subway?
or extend HBLR to and over SIR.
I think the "Second System" as envisioned in 1929 is pretty much a dead letter.
If there is ever major new rapid transit construction, it would be wise to do it as a sort of regional rail approach with fast service to outlying city neighborhoods and no City Line restriction.
IOW, wipe the slate clean and plan for current and future needs.
if you didnt 7456-7460/7476-7480 in service on the 6
Thanks for reporting that. I saw the set going somewhere a few days ago.
-Stef
also if you get the post last week it was 6411-6415/6321-6325 on the 2
also 6316-6320/6526-6530.
A couple of other carsets:
#6351-6355 was on the road today! After being dormant for who-knows-how-long, now, it's out the haystack!
Also, some set in the 6660s was out on the road today...
Cleanairbus
hybrdidbus@aol.com
AHA! This was the thread. r142notes.
Around 6 responses all by r142man himself, including the one who started the thread.
I appreciate your notes, but pretty soon, we won't need them for very much use when all of them come in.
LOL
: )
Railfan Pete.
its true
The notes provide a source of information for those of who are interested in tracking the progress of the 142s. Perhaps you should suggest to Pirmann he take it down since they won't provide us with useful information for much longer?
Your attitude is pretty sour. Chill out dude.
-Stef
My attitude is sour? I wasn't making a big deal of my statement, it's just that I don't spend a lot of time with R142(A)'s because I don't ride the subway near there frequently.
And when I wait for a #2 train, it's ALWAYS a Redbird. Am I just unlucky? (Although once, I spotted a Downtown R142 train at 34 st Penn Sta. but we were heading UPTOWN on a Redbird #2. On the route back from E. Tremont Av., we met with 3 other R142 trains in the adjacent tunnel going UPTOWN, and I guess the T/A has scheduled a bunch of R142's at a time, and whenever I arrive at the platform, it's a Redbird. (NOTE: Due to timing, we do not wait for trains. The first one comes, we get it.)
And this was a couple of months ago during the summer.
Railfan Pete.
Your best bet is to wait on a "island platform" such as 110th street and Park Place in lower Manhattan that saves you the energy of running back and forth like a damn fool!!!!! like I did for the R-142's, now the wait is about every 5-8 minutes or so.The R-33's are starting to appear on the Dyre Avenue line I saw the 9000's series over the weekend.
i was on 9006 on the 5 yesterday
he man what the hell is wrong with you i dont go out on a platform and wait a r142 everyday.usually it just happens that i get on the r142 .i see the trains from the train im on. so what the hell is the delivery list for.when i see a train i report it.this type of is a response that drives people away from the board.people do like to know what is going down with this.like stef said i dont come to make eminemes.start making a postive statement now please.yeah and that shit you posted was lol
Thanks Pete but I for one appreciate the notes since I'm keeping track of the delivery dates. Sure in the long run it won't mean much but I think the progress of the deliveries (and the progress of the scrapping) is worth preserving.
if you didnt know 7456-7460/7476-7480 in service on the 6
The BMT was a big mess this AM. And I extend my regrets for all that were inconvenienced. The weekend Trackwork in the Montgaue Tunnel ran late. Also adding to the jam was switching problem and congestion at 36 Street. When service resumed trains were stacked up like dominos. Trains were stacked in stations as well as int he tunnel waiting to enter the station. I walked (After being off-duty) from Union to 9th to get the F. F trains were also packed and delayed due to some problem at Smith and 9th.
If any Sub Talkers were late, please call 718-243-3222, give the line, car number, station and direction of travel (ie to Manhattan) and NYCT will issue you a delay letter for your employer.
Ah, the joys of being at the wrong end of the seniority list. You get to have Tues and Wed off, thereby missing the results of 3-day GOs.
I dont mind! I posted as a courtesy to those who might have been stuck or delayed by this late running track work.
Got hung up North of DeKalb for a N train that was on the bypass track. Then that N Train got a sick customer. Joy Joy!!
man everything messed up this morning!
QUEENS BOULEVARD E TRAIN HAVIN SIGNAL PROBLEMS!!!
MY BRO GETS ON AT JAMAICA CENTER AT 815 AND 920 IS ARRIVING AT QUEENS PLAZA!!!!!!!!
By 7:15 am things were rough going into Manhattan. I have noticed a significant increase in ridership since last week. The kids are back to school, and everyone is back to work. Just a guess anyway.
An hour plus from Jama to Queens Pza? HMPH! An ox cart would have been faster! :o>
wayne
I do regret that you had a bad day on the subway. I do recall many times riding in a car and being stuck waiting to enter NYC in the Holland Tunnel for over 1 hour! I still hear the Traffic reports and often the Holland, Lincoln and GWB are 1 hour and up waits. I never hear build another bridge or tunnel or close the bridge and tunnel.
Usually the subways are much better than streets and highways. Tuesday AM was a rare event. Give us a break! Let's say we do away with all G.O.s- then we'd be reading about derailments, stalled trains, track fires,etc. We'd be reading posts about "Why dont they repair the subway?"
Let's say you need a new roof on your house. It is a mess until the job is done or perhaps you say no new roof and your ceiling falls due to a major leak.
NYCT tries to keep the G.O.s to a minimum and overnight. If it cant be done overnight such as elevated lines then it is midday. If it takesd longer then it is weekends. Unfortunately, work sometimes takes longer than planned. While I do not specifically know why the weekend G.O. on the Montague Tunnel (BMT to Manhattan) ran long, I expect that the person in charge is probably explaining to their superiors.
We do not enjoy having to issue block tickets, G.O. tickets, calling police for crowd control,being physically threatened (such as our S/As were at Rockaway Parkway L last weekend[I was in the booth as the Lunch Relief.]), etc. but for some of us at least, it is a pleasure to serve our customers in spite of the problems- some of which are the customers themselves.
I have decided to modify my Second Avenue plan which is going to include the Second system's
Boston Road(Bronx) and Rockaway(Queens)line.The 1 draft should be complete as early as Thanksgiving or as late as 2003.
Have anyone here play the new Microsoft train similation game?
I bought it yesterday and Im almost hooked. It runs smoothly on my system with a Geforce GTS graphics card. THe game consists on many differents activities. It costs 45 bucks at Compusa.
I read many reviews for it. It doesn't seem to have many "build your own" options in it like BVE which I'm stuck to. Which is free by the way, so you should go try it out. Here's one of the help pages to get you started.
http://hometown.aol.com/bvehelper
After you figure it out, go head over here...
r68a_5200.tripod.com
for some goodies for it.
I don't know if anybody has noticed yet, but Abacus software is about to release an add-on that will have a Chicago "L" route that will include the "Loop". Count me in, I guess it's just a matter of time before we see a NYC line add-on too.
Also, check out one of the Train Sim sites, the Japanese sell a controller and brake handle, a la joystick. Not for sale yet in the states, though if Train Sim continues to sell well we'll have them here too.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
The game is great. I got it for about $30 back when it first came out. I used a Staples coupon and also got a free copy of Flight Sim 2000 after rebate.
But I have a problem with the game - I'm running Windows 2000, and when I end a particular "simulation" in in order to go back to the main menu, the computer just instantly reboots.
You might what to try this website for all the information you need about MSTS.
http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite/_whatsnew.msnw
Good Luck,
Paul
Probably because of a core dump, it's a blue screen that appears so fast you can't see it because it reboots.
I have built a web site of interest to those who wish to create or discuss fantastical transit lines. Here is a plan for an elevated line on Fifth Avenue. The major premiss is the elimination of vehicle triffic along the Avenue, and the use of these LRV lines to replace existing bus service. NIMBYs need not look.
Fifth Avenue Els
I have not yet made this site public, but will do so shortly, if you have any comments on the site (or the Return of the Els) please let me know.
Thanks
Elias
The general idea is well presented, but there will never be an elevated line on Fifth Avenue.
Fifth Avenue is the world's premier and most famous, highly respected and prized street for shopping. A El will never be.
Yes this is so, but if it were presented as part of a package to turn Fifth Avenue into a wide pedestrian mall, with kisoks leading into the stores, and by making the street itself an attraction. With plenty of trees, benches and fountains...
It would be like brining a prime park right to their front doors!
Thanks! : )
Elias
Some of the apartments along 5th avenue cost more per month than most people make in a year. Do you think they'd put up with the idea of an el causing the buildings to rattle every few minutes? Besides, they live on 5th avenue and can afford cabs, they don't want or need a subway or el. And 110th and above has a lenox ave subway, which is only a block away from 5th.
"And 110th and above has a lenox ave subway, which is only a block away from 5th."
Most people travel more than a few stations to get to their destination. Therefore, a fifth Avenue can work beside the Lenox Avenue line, because they travel in different directions below 110th Street.
The problem I have with this idea is the fact it will be elevated. Other than that, I think 5th Avenue is a good idea. Especially compare to the buses that uses the same street.
As for having service on 3rd Avenue, I would rather see it on first. Why? Because unlike the Lenox Avenue line, the 4,5, and 6 travels parrallel to 3rd third, making any rail transit on it, useless.
Also, first Avenue is far enough from Lexington/Park Avenues to be a viable mode of transportation, especially compare to the M15.
N Broadway Line
N Broadway has a point, forget 5th Ave and run it on 1st or 2nd Ave and extend it up in the Bronx, maybe along the Metro North Harlem or Amtrak lines
"As for having service on 3rd Avenue, I would rather see it on first."
First and Second Avenues are both six lanes wide, and are major north south arteries for vehicular traffic. Any plans such as I am thinking of would really disrupt these roads, squeezing this traffic out into what would otherwise be quieter avenues.
The original premiss was to see what avenues could be CLOSED to vehicular traffic, and then having created a GREEN AVENUE, placing adequate transportation facilities on it.
Remember, these lines are replacing BUSSES and are not trying to be subways. It is intentional that they do not extend into the Bronx. People from the Bronx *should* be on *subways*.
I might have stopped the 5th Avenue line at 110th street, and the 3rd Avenue line at 96th street, but this would be overtly racist, and therefore not possible. Rather than noise or other issues, it is likely that the issues of racism would prevent any consideration of this project, which is a sad commentary on our nation.
Elias
"Some of the apartments along 5th avenue cost more per month than most people make in a year. Do you think they'd put up with the idea of an el causing the buildings to rattle every few minutes? "
Yes, I do think so, for the entire package is a trade off of many sorts. First, Fifth Avenue closes to all through traffic, I brings the park almost to their front door. With the departure of traffic noise in the area should drop dramatically.
Next is the fact that these are not your father's els. They are not made with 1800's technology. They are made of concrete, with sound absorbing materials. The lines run straight and gentle, with much lighter weight vehicles. There is no reason why sound should be an issue: Traction motors do not make much noise, and rails sounds can be completely dampened out with padded trackways, and rubber isolated wheelsets.
Finally, through this area the lines are low, and on the far (park side) of the avenue. People on the ground level will look under them, people on the second floor of these building ought to be able to look out over them.
The idea is that they will replace motor busses. Those *are* noisy and smelly too.
Besides which, they cannot complain about their backyards! These will be built in their FRONT YARDS! : )
Like I say, it is a trade off, and I think a very favorable one.
Elias
Also the rich people on 5th above 59th will yell and scream and they have the gelt
Considereing the presence of lines within a mere two blocks, why bother?
Incidently, they tore down the 5th Ave el years ago, even before they tore down the Fulton St el.
-Hank (~snicker~)
That was in Brooklyn, Manhatten had 2nd 3rd 6th and 9th, no 5th
That was why I was snickering.
-Hank
As near as I can tell, 5th Avenue never had ANY rail transit, while every other avenue did (many horse-drawn). Why? I'm guessing because the Croton Aqueduct was under there, and no way was anyone going to get near the City's sole source of water through much of the 19th Century.
Kind of sobering to think that the poshest street ended up being the one with no rail transit -- above, at-grade or even below.
Fifth Ave had Horse Drawn Omnibusses and then Motor Bussesa. never any rail
I'm guessing because the Croton Aqueduct was under there, and no way was anyone going to get near the City's sole source of water through much of the 19th Century.
I doubt that's the reason. I am certain that it's BECAUSE it's the poshest street, they didn't want any lumpen rails in the street.
I also doubt that the aqueduct would be on any part of 5th Avenue. It doesn't add up. First, the aqueduct enters Manhattan at High Bridge, then there is a pump station (or whatever) near City College, and another few further south, but still too far west of 5th, the aqueduct would then be in the middle of Central Park, using the current reservoir and one that was at the current Great Lawn. It would end at a high-walled reservoir where the big library is now. Bryant Park was called Reservoir Square. It would seem to me that the Reservoir would run under 6th Avenue.
Even in 1840, 5th Avenue was lined with mansions. The rich would never put up with such disruption.
I would have to disagree with all of your comments.
First, here is a map showing that the aqueduct was indeed under 5th:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1873.index.NYC.html
Second, you can see that 5th is quite unique in its ABSENCE of rail, relative to the other avenues. 5th was obviously quite serene through the latter half of 19th Century, at least compared to all of its neighbors (Lexington was missed, but that was taken care of a few years later).
Third, they didn't put the aqueduct there because it was the poshest at the time. (Can you imagine them trying to put in one today?) The alignment was chosen because of the topography, as this first line was gravity-fed. The area north of 42nd in the 1840s was the country, and accomodated the aqueduct, and its distributing reservoir nicely. With the aqueduct, the area north of 42nd was directly blocked from rail transit, and the area south was benefited as well. Hence mansions like the Waldorf and the Astoria (which led to the Waldorf Hotel and the Astoria Hotel, which led to the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, which led to the Empire State Building).
Fourth, therefore it was water line first (and absence of rail transit I would note), THE posh neighborhood in town second. The #2 address (Park) has rail, but no stations for almost a century. Poshest neighborhoods on the Upper West Side? WEA and Riverside Drive; no rail transit, ever.
This site treats transit (even els!) as an unmitigated positive. It is more nuanced than that. In order to get new lines built, the realities need to be recognized. Otherwise, communities like Astoria which are unanimous (among their elected officals) against a project will always confuse this forum ("D#!$ed Nimbys!"). They have a point: transit brings positives, but also negatives. Even some of the positives (development) are negatives to many (traffic). Address those negatives, or be prepared for another 50 years no new transit lines.
OK, you are certainly right about 5th hosting the aqueduct. Did 5th become the posh avenue because of the Park, or because it was the first avenue with running water?
No doubt Central Park helped. But the mansions were initially south of 59th, including the last people to make a dime from trains, those Staten Island Vanderbilts.
Incidently, they tore down the 5th Ave el years ago, even before they tore down the Fulton St el.
Actually, they both closed on the same day in 1940 (except for the section east of Rockaway Ave., the last 6 stops of which remain today as the end of the A train route to Lefferts Blvd.)
-- Ed Sachs
"Considereing the presence of lines within a mere two blocks, why bother?
Incidently, they tore down the 5th Ave el years ago, even before they tore down the Fulton St el. "
Actually the plans that I am making for Brooklyn *do* put this line back in again, if for no other reason that not access the 36th Street yards for storage and servicing of equipment. : )
Elias
Much as it might be enjoyable to think of people living in their $15 million apartments having to shut the windows to avoid getting steel dust on their furniture, the situation on the west side with the IND and IRT provides the classic example of why Fifth Ave. is a bad street to run an el down.
Even if the buildings between 59th and 110th were low income housing, the fact is nobody lives on one side of the street, just as nobody lives on one side of the CPW local stops. That's why the B and C trains ususally have plenty of space on them, while the 1/9 train between Times Square and Columbia is stuffed to the gills. The same thing would be true on the east side -- a Fifth Ave. line would pull some people (if they ride mass transit) from a block to 1 1/2 blocks east of the park, but the bulk of east side riders would remain on the more centrally-located Lexington Ave. subway.
"The same thing would be true on the east side -- a Fifth Ave. line would pull some people (if they ride mass transit) from a block to 1 1/2 blocks east of the park, but the bulk of east side riders would remain on the more centrally-located Lexington Ave. subway."
Who ever came up with the idea of putting the IRT line on Lexington Avenue?
N Bwy Lines
Lexington was the most logical location because Second and Third Avenues already had els, which would have made digging under them very costly (unless it's not your money, like the IND on Fulton St. and Sixth Ave.), while Park Ave. had the NY Central railroad tracks. Plus, running the line under Madison Ave. north of 42nd St. would have forced some major disruptions in the original Contract 1 (shuttle) Grand Central tracks and platform. Splitting the new line off east of the GC platform allowed it to remain in full operation while the new Grand Central tracks and platform for the 4/5/6 were being built.
Why can't these light rail vehicles be on street level?
N Broadway Line
"Why can't these light rail vehicles be on street level?"
Because then they'd be traffic-bound -- and therefore slow -- just like the buses they are supposed to replace.
You're thinking of trolleys. Modern light rail systems have their own row (a reserved lane), and cut right through traffic.
"Modern light rail systems have their own row (a reserved lane), and cut right through traffic."
At the cross-streets?!?
Good point. Denver's light rail trains have their own reserved corridor downtown, but are restricted to 20 mph. Ditto on the Welton St. portion.
San Diego Trolley, LA Blue Line, and SF Muni Lines run on City Streets in certain portions and obay all lights
I was responding to your point that light rail is slow, like buses. It isn't. It is faster than buses. Light rail has its own corridor and goes much faster than buses. Both respond to traffic lights, but even here light rail is becoming faster than buses (and cars): more and more cities are giving light rail preference in the cycle. It is why these systems are being built in so many cities: decent speed and capacity at a reasonable price.
"I was responding to your point that light rail is slow, like buses. It isn't. It is faster than buses."
I wasn't saying that light rail in general is as slow as buses, just a line that is all street running. I think all the light rail systems that have been built (or rebuilt, depending on how you look at it) from San Diego 20 years ago to the newest systems are great successes, as demonstrated by full park-and-ride lots and that they ALL are either building or planning extensions. They must be faster, or they wouldn't be luring commuters out of their cars.
But with the exception of the new Portland Streetcar -- the managers of which insist is a streetcar and NOT light rail -- all the modern systems have significant private right of way. Indeed, all the surviving OLD light rail systems (Boston, Newark, Philadelphia, Cleveland, and San Francisco) have significant private ROW, including downtown subways, which is likely a major factor in their survival. There's a fundamental difference between even an at-grade private ROW with crossings at only the main streets -- like a mainline railroad -- and something that would have EVERY SINGLE STREET crossing it.
Brilliant!
It remeinds me of the Canal St Line in New Orleans. The new construction of concret on pedestals, similar to those used for the airtrain should be rattle free. The park-like mall would rival Park avenue. The blessing of the quiteness would east the tension of urban bustle.
Can we expect express trams?
avid
If you were to join the lines in the upper portion, the Bronx, you could cut your cost in Half . just a single line, downtown on 5th and uptown on 3rd. With the occasional layup side track for possible breakdowns.
LIONEL, here we come!
avid
This is an interesting proposal, but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree for a number of reasons. (Please read on to the end. The final point is, IMO, the most significant and the most relevant to this board.)
There are residences and businesses along both avenues. They need to receive deliveries, and -- dare I say it -- occasionally a passenger may have reason to arrive by taxi. The avenues can't be closed to all traffic.
Along Central Park, all streets from the east end at 5th Avenue. Your plan would turn them into dead ends, which would require allowing two-way traffic. But they're too narrow to accomodate two-way traffic along with parking, so in addition to eliminating loading on 5th Avenue, you've eliminated loading and parking on the side streets, too. Deliveries will have to be carried by hand from Madison.
Extending Central Park by the width of 5th Avenue doesn't accomplish much. Elsewhere the linear park will be interrupted each block by a cross street. Some park!
Most buses stop every 2-3 blocks, and passengers like it that way. Other buses make limited stops, generally at major cross streets. Your proposal falls in between, not really satisfying anyone.
Have you bothered to look at a bus map? There is no single 5th Avenue line that runs from top to bottom; rather, many bus routes use bits and pieces of 5th Avenue: M1 (139 to 40), M2 (110 to 8), M3 (110 to 8), M4 (110 to 34), M5 (59 to 8), M30 (72 to 57), Q32 (60 to 34), M66 (67 to 66), M72 (72 to 66), M86 (86 to 85), M106 (106 to 97), and a good deal of express routes. Given this great variety of routes, I don't think most passengers are simply traveling straight down 5th. Under your proposal, each one of these routes would have to be eliminated or permanently diverted to another avenue.
What I would suggest instead is a lot less radical but is still a major change from what currently exists: buses in mixed traffic. Sure, there's a bus lane, but it's rarely enforced and non-buses are even permitted to use it (specifically, to turn right, but nobody really pays attention to details like that).
I propose that the two rightmost lanes be physically divided from the rest of the street and be reserved for buses only. Barring true emergencies, no other traffic would be permitted to enter the bus lanes except by special permit between midnight and 5am. Enforcement would be by camera; any license plate photographed would earn a $200 fine per occurrence. (Cameras would be each block, so a one-mile cruise down the bus lane would cost $2000.) Right turns from the main avenue, if allowed at all, would only be allowed at predetermined points, and traffic would not be allowed to turn right while buses are in motion. Loading/parking zones would be on the left side of the avenue and/or on the left side of the island dividing the main avenue from the bus roadway.
Why two lanes? Two lanes allow local, limited, and express bus service to all operate efficiently, and two lanes allow buses to avoid obstructions like other buses that have broken down.
The bus lanes don't need to extend the entire length of 5th Avenue. The big trouble zone is from 60th Street to 42nd Street, with backups often extending as far north as 72nd. The bus lanes could begin at, say, 79th, and end at 40th (with an extra phase in the signal's cycle to allow the M1 to turn left).
This would roughly yield the efficiency of a light rail line with the flexibility of a bus line.
David,
Thank you for your comments.
It was not my plan to close Fifth Avenue to all traffic, but rather to through traffic. Loops (I was thinking two lanes would be enough) *could* be as short as a single block, or more likely several blocks long say from 60th Street to 72nd (or whatever- I don't have a map here at the moment- ). Those who as quickly want to make time, will quiclky find themselves a different route.
I knew that there were several bus routes on Fifth, but was not aware that it was quite that many. It is the reason why I *never* ride a bus: you never know where it will turn or where it will go. At least a Subway Train has to follow the tracks.
Connecting buss routes, and subway routes could match up with this line nicely, and is one of the reasons why I think we can get by without collecting fares on this line: you will pay when you transfer to the bus or subway, as MetroCard collects only one fare for such connections, we can assume that such a connection will be made.
Is it perfect? No, nothing will please all people.
Will it happen? Probably not.
The exercise, like a crossword puzzle is in the trying.
I like your ideas for the bus lanes, that seems very inovative. My whole idea hindges on a scheme to eliminate almost all private passenger vehicles from lower Manhattan, by charging tolls, by eliminating parking, and by eliminating certian streets and avenues from the traffic grid. Yes every address needs to be accessible to a vehicular delivery, but this does not mean that what was a through road needs to remain as such, and some short stretches ought to be closed to vehicles.
Sidewalks are crowded. Roads are Crowded. The number of users does not grow less, something has to give. If you try to force people out of cars, we need something else to take their place: something that is user and environmentaly friendly. Great walking plazas instead of avenues in certain areas has its appeal.
Will it happen? Who knows?
Can we choke the city with cars? Yep... we already done that!
Can it Change? I think it has to.
We keep thinking.
nyc2020
W or Q? On Friday morning down to Brooklyn, afternoon back to Manhattan, which is the better train to catch?
Q - the West 8th street stop is closer to the Aquarium than the Coney Island stop.
subfan
or the F, but that would be longer,
What's so special about the aquarium anyway?
It's a nifty place to throw silly questions to the sharks.
As long as they don't attack first.
It's a nifty place to throw silly questions to the sharks.
I'd rather throw a trainload of high schoolers...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yea, that'd be good too... how did today's youth become so corrupted?
how did today's youth become so corrupted?
And how did you become so ill-informed?
How about backing up your statement with some facts? The News at 11 doesn't count.
You want me to give you some facts? Fine... everyday when coming home FROM school... I see SCHOOLMATES abusing drugs. I hear from SCHOOLMATES using haarder drugs, you're obviously not gonna see someone doing hard drugs on the street. A lot of them are also doing crimes such as credit fraud.
You want me to give you some facts?
Perceptions are not facts.
I see SCHOOLMATES abusing drugs. I hear from SCHOOLMATES using haarder drugs, you're obviously not gonna see someone doing hard drugs on the street. A lot of them are also doing crimes such as credit fraud.
However you can't say that any of these activities are more or less common now than they have been 20 or more years ago?
Drug use is DOWN. Credit fraud is likely up (I have no concrete evidence of that) but tele-purchasing, which is more conducive to credit card fraud is also on the rise. I doubt that credit card fraud is up among youth any more than it is up among others.
While you maybe true, I'm certain that drug use is up. There was a thing on Good Morning America that said that after a 9 year study, drug use is dramatically up and anti-drug campaigns are not working. This came as a complete surprise. They also mentioned that drug dealers are no longer the mysterious people in trenchcoats, but rather a child's friends at school. I also remember that ~25% of students have smoked at age 12. Can we just drop this subject regardless of whether i'm right or wrong?
There was a thing on Good Morning America
Television is for entertainment, not information.
This came as a complete surprise.
The drug use being up, or the anti-drug campaigns not working?
According to CDC statistics the percentage of persons 12 years of age and over who used marijuana in an average month was 5% every year since 1990. Use was at 10% in 1985 and 13% in 1979.
In 1998, that figure was 8% for those persons aged 12-17 years, it was 14% in 1979. The all time low was 3% in 1992, which is your nine year figure. It's obvious that they chose an odd number like 9 only to prove their point.
Marijuana use among 16-17 year olds was 15% in 1998. Individual data is not available for that age group before 1994. As a comparison, one can use the 18-25 age group which was 14% in 1998. It was 36% in 1979.
Can we just drop this subject regardless of whether i'm right or wrong?
No. You shouldn't have gotten me started.
(The drug use being up, or the anti-drug campaigns not working?
According to CDC statistics the percentage of persons 12 years of age and over who used marijuana in an average month was 5% every year since 1990. Use was at 10% in 1985 and 13% in 1979.)
I'm Class of 1979, and worked for years as a professional social scientist. And I can tell you as a fact (or at least as a matter of data) that my generation was the most F--ED up and F--ED over. Today's teens ON AVERAGE are better educated, and far less likely to make life diminishing mistakes (drugs, booze, cigarettes, teenage pregnancy, auto accidents, etc).
The only good news about my high school years is that they were after heroin and before crack. I was probably one of a handful that DIDN'T smoke pot. And remember, I went to high school in two places, suburban NY and Tulsa OK, so it wasn't just a one-place thing.
Well good for you American Pig, you know what you're talking about, but can you really say that not a day goes by when you don't see a teen abusing drugs? As for television is for entertainment, there are some things out there that are pointed towards you learning something. For instance PBS has a program called learn to read.
but can you really say that not a day goes by when you don't see a teen abusing drugs?
Yes I can. But what I see or don't see is not actually what happens.
Drug use is not the only sign of decaying youth, or of decaying society in general, especially marijuana use, which is less addictive than tobacco and less harmful than alcohol.
For instance PBS has a program called learn to read.
PBS has a lot of other programs for learning. Maybe I should have said COMMERCIAL television is for entertainment.
What about cable channels with educational programming? I guess I should drop that comment about TV being exclusively for entertainment. Still, I always take TV news with a pound of salt.
... how did today's youth become so corrupted?
Not all of them are, fortunately. But it seems that whenever I end up in the City during the week, it's right at "school rush" time on the A in Brooklyn and Queens. Hence my suggestion to use the rowdies as shark food.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, ok that's what you meant...
TV
Yes, we didn't have bloody wars that killed $30 Million people before there was TV.
It has fish - some of us actually find them interesting. :-)
subfan
You find Fish Interesting?
I find Phish even more Interesting.
Phish have long Hair, Boobtits, can get pregnant if you get frisky and finish in her... :)
Phish are better.
Um... yea... that's more like it...
Does the aquarium have Redbirds on display yet?
I would definitely take the W if you're going after 10AM. It's supposed to run express on the N Coney Island bound. See:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnw.htm
It would be worth the couple of blocks walk.
Afternoon? Q to the . I'm not very objective when it comes to the Brighton Express but, don't miss it!
Co-op city-The X will run express until Tremont Avenue then seperate fro Branch A(Fordham Plaza)and run local via Tremont Avenue until East 180 street where the 2 and 5 meet,then go up Morris park Avenue until the tunnel reaches a street a block east of Eastchester road,then the tunnel will turn and go North until Pelgamm Parkway then following the Bx12 until Pelham Parkway(6).The train to city Island will turn NE while the Co-op city train will turn North then run until Asch loop where it will terminate.
City Island-The X to city Island will run express until Pelham Parkway where the express tracks will go up Shore road to the turn off for city Island
Fordham plaza:This train will go up 3 Avenue to Fordham plaza.
Oh my god, you think you can put a tunnel or even an elevated structure on city island? THINK AGAIN!@# There's only one street it could go on or under, city island avenue, and thats really tight on space. Have you actually ever been to City Island?? The Bx29 has a bitch of a time to turn around at the end of City Island Avenue, it has to back up, go into a parking lot, back up again and then it continues its trip in the opposite direction. City Island will never have an El or a tunnel, it simply will not do. Light rail on City Island might be a solution, but a maintenance facility might be kind of weird since there is no extra land there...
Light rail on City Island would have one advantage over the current Bx29 bus service - with double-ended LRVs it wouldn't have to turn around to reverse direction in that pain-in-the-ass way that you mentioned. Another advantage might be an in-station transfer to the 6 train, though that might require some construction at Pelham Bay. A maintenance shop would probably have to be constructed somewhere on the mainland.
I just don't think so!!!!
T.
I'd for love something to go to Fordham plaza again!
The difference between thou and Lance Storm
is that when he wishes to "be serious for a moment"
he can actually be taken for such.
Why Asch Loop when Einstein Loop is where it's at!!
Amtrak has stated in response to an inquiry that the ROW remediation work in six rock slide areas between Boston and New Haven will be completed by November 2001. These stretches of track have been subject to speed restrictions, single-tracking etc.
The work has included removal of unstable rock and soil, shotcreting, netting and slope revisions. In November, the Acela Express will begin operating through those areas with no speed restrictions.
So much for the bliions spent on the shore line. You'd think they would have done basic stuff like clean up the ROW back then. 6 by 4 foot boulders are bad mojo to be on or near the tracks. And it was obvious the second that one dropped what was going on - it's difficult, virtually impossible, to move a rock that size without everyone noticing it.
Phil, any railroad that runs along a seashore is extremely difficult
to maintain. You can clean up the RoW all you want and it will
still slip every now and then. Somebody made a bad strategic
decision back in the 1880s to build the line so close to the coast,
and somebody in the 1920s decided to make THIS line the mainline
rather than the inland route or any of the other possible routes.
These strategic oversights are hardly Amtrak's fault. If you think
you can maintain the Shore Line better, why don't you convince
Amtrak to make you their MoW chief?
Railroads require level ground. They follow rivers and other bodies of water. There was nothing flawed with building the Shore Line along the shore.
Mike: Steam railroad requires level ground. An electric railroad does not. There are many railroads out there which do not experience landslip on a regular basis, because they follow either small bodies of water, or they are far enough from a large body of water that it will take the body of water some 2000 years to erode the rock away between the body of water and the railroad. Building a line ON the coast, with CAUSEWAYS going over the actual bodies of water, is pretty short sighted and stupid. I don't blame the New Haven for doing this, because they were simply trying to get A RAILROAD to go between Boston and New York. However, these things should have been cleaned up as soon as they made money off the route. UP went back and cleaned up a lot of its RoW after Harriman was finished with it. There's even a by-pass built in the 1900s which took the mainline away from Polmontary Point. Why didn't the NH&H do that? They were too English -- yes too chicken.
First, the Shore Line is just about the straightest line between New Haven, Providence and Boston. It also serves several other IMPORTANT cities like New London and Attleborro. Second, the "grain" in this region goes North-South (I took a geology of Connecticut class so I know). You can either follow the shore or run up to the middle of Mass. (aka Inland Route). To do otherwise would be to pull a Slateford Cuttoff with the only differance being YOU'RE NOT CUTTING ANYTHING OFF.
Come on Lexcie, keeping large boulders from comming off and landing on the ROW isn't rocket science. This mearly requires one to clear the close rock formations, and remove any that are crumbling. This should have been done with the suposed "upgrades" to the ROW that were supposedly done years ago. As should have decent drainage, etc. It's getting pretty obvious that Amtrak half assed this whole project, and half assed jobs don't stand up very long.
On top of that, they've been having troubles with drawbridges getting stuck closed. Of course, I'm sure if a few large boats "broke down" while going through an open bridge and tied up service for 5 - 6 hours, Amtrak would "fix" the "problem". You really have to have moronic management to blow 2 industrial motors on a bridge in less than a year...
None of this stuff is rocket science, none of it is special, none of it requires and type of magic. Apparently, samtrak can't even get the simple task of running a train down, letalone expanding services and sucessfully introduceing new ones...
Spoken like a true genius who knows it all. When do we elect you world emperor, so you can fix the Middle East, the Koreas and starvation in Africa?
I see things have gotten better at Amcrash: it used to be drawbridges would get stuck open. Even better, we paid homage to Evel Knievel's aborted Snake River jump by having clear signals displayed over the Hackensack River draw with the miter rails up. Result- Mail 12 got to visit NJT's Boonton Line, and the MoW person in charge WHO WAS WARNED REPEATEDLY that there was a problem with those same miter rails before the wreck (ahem- diversion) is now a VP.
BABS! The Eggman is here!
People who are incompetent have to be promoted to areas where they no longer have actual responsibility. It's the only way to get rid of them.
There is no argument that Amtrak's $2bn scheme for Acela was done on the cheap. The reasons are: (1) If they were to go for something which might actually work, they would have gone for the Swedish X2000 tilting trainset which is based on technology that powered the AEM-7's (now don't argue with me about these meatballs -- they WORK). (2) There's no point being whole assed about the RoW if you are going to buy half assed rolling stock, e.g. the Acela set, and anyway they didn't have enough $. Actually the whole decision to go tilt is pretty stupid as it only benefited people travelling between Providence and New Haven -- hardly a busy corridor. Boston residents got marginal benefits, but anyone who lives South of New Haven can still charter an AEM-7 set and have it overtake an Acela train without breaking the speed limit. But don't get me started on that.
Lexcie
The Swedish X2000 was WAY underpowered. It only had one power car and probably didn't meet FRA crash standards.
LOL, B/T New Haven and Penn an Metro North train could probably overtake the ACELA.
Because an Acela going any faster would rip out the catenary. Then everybody would be dead on the tracks...
Bolders near the shore? I doubt it. Most of the run from New London to Providence and Boston is quite a distance from the shore. My own limited experience on Amtrak suggests that southern RI is a prime location for foreign objects on the tracks.
Great. This just spoils our plan for the Acela Express 2 for 1 weekend Special which expires on September 20, 2001. I was hoping for the best ride on AE if possible.
: |
Railfan Pete.
I've been reading alot of postings about the "V" train starting as early as this weekend. Where are people getting this infomation?
Did someone see a poster or memo? Where?
I saw a mention of it on the MTA homepage. It says that it'll be running from this time to that time on weekends. But no mention of when it'll start.
I've been asking my friends in transit and people sitting in token booths. They haven't heard anything.
What have (and where did you hear what) you heard?
We're all talking about the GO you saw, its scheduled to run November 7th for real I think, correct me if I'm wrong.
Clayton, see my post on November 11 sim which is this Saturday. I got my info from someone in my office with an ear into OP and the TA RTO GO office. So, my information is very solid since my office depends on it to schedule work.
Is there any public announcement about the "V"? It's nice to hear from a friend of a friend who works in the office. But If there is not a poster, where could I read the bulletin? In a tower or dispatcher's office?
Actually we have the GO in the office and it is written as 5am Saturday until 2 am Sunday.
Where is the "V" train suppoed to run? If I'm not mistaken it may run od the IND 6th Ave. line in Manhattan.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I know WHERE. But I was wondering WHEN?
Unfortunately I don't know when the "V" train will start to operate.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
nov 11
That is if nothing else goes wrong.
#3 West End Jeff
That is if nothing else goes wrong
#3 West End Jeff
Last night on the Queens Blvd. lines there were some R-40 slants signed for the V making runs on the local tracks. All empties except for the crews. Must have been familirization runs, but there they were in real time.
I've heard from some dispatchers there is a dry run of "V" trains running from Continental to 2 Ave. this weekend. But he also said since Train Crews have not picked yet so it's unlikely service will start Nov. 11.
The Train Operators & Conductors are scheduled to start picking in about a week. Plenty of time for a Nov. 11th start of regular V service.
I spoke to a T/O at Roosevelt. He told me there were no operational problems with the V. I followed up with "Did the V delay you [he had the F Line] in any way?" he advised he arrive dat the end of the line on time for each trip.
I've heard from some dispatchers there is a dry run of "V" trains running from Continental to 2 Ave. this weekend. But he also said since Train Crews have not picked yet so it's unlikely service will start Nov. 11.
In my posting I didn't say anything about a GO. I was asking where did people hear about the V Train starting? Did you read a poster about it? If so, where did you see it? And when is it supposed to start?
It was on all the newspapers. It was announced a day before the 'W'
I've been reading alot of postings about the "V" train starting as early as this weekend. Where are people getting this infomation?
Did someone see a poster or memo? Where?
The V train was running this weekend between 71 Avenue and 2 Avenue via the 53 Street Tunnel. The F was running between 179 Street and Coney Island via the 63 Street Tunnel. The service notice stated that this would be in effect all weekend. I rode the V on Saturday enroute to the Hoboken Festival. The train was composed of -40's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This Saturday Sept 8, the TA will be having a simulation of the new improved service plan which debuts on November 11 with actual trains in service. There will be no shutdown of the 53rd street tube so it is an interesting chance to see how the new improved subway lines will look. i.e the E and V via 53rd and the F via 63rd, the R via 60th and the G deadended at Court Square.
Will Jamaica be supplying cars for both the G and V (as well as E, F, and R) during this sim, or will there be some cars from another yard (like CI) helping out?
I'm asaking because I want to get a "heads up" on what I will be seeing.
Last simulation with all the E, F, G, R, and V operating together got 6 cars from Coney Island's Shuttle fleet. This time the G is operating a short route. I doubt that'll be necessary. But if it is, Coney Island seems to have plenty of cars lying around on the weekends, al la the R40s. I doubt there will be service affected in Brooklyn.
I seriously doubt that this simulation will require any CI cars. Considering that weekend G trains are "cut" from R trains, and 6 car G trains are left lying around, I think that there will be enough cars for the test.
What I will find interesting will be the Normal operation of the lines. On weekends, what will the G operate? And what will happen to the 2 car R-46 units? I guess Nov. 11 isn't that far off, now is it...
The G Line will probably operate it's post-November 11, 2001 route. The 2-car units will get split among the Queens Boulevard Lines. The G will be shopped at Coney Island with some 4-car set R68x. Which is why the question was raised by R36 #9346. If there aren't enough cars to support the E, F, G, R, and V post-November 11, 2001, will there be enough for the simulation that they have to borrow from Coney Island? Maybe yes for the simulation but not for full time service as the fleet will have maintainence needs and there will be a shortage if a car has to be taken off the road for a significant amount of time.
Have any more been sunk since the famed first sinking ?
All answers greatly appreciated
Have you read your SubTALK posts today?
what do you mean?
Apparently the Portland (OR) Streetcar is no longer without incident. An auto ran a stop sign and hit one of the cars. There was only slight damage to the streetcar, which apparently had about 50 passengers aboard, and some of the riders were slightly hurt. The bad news is that the fleet of 5 is temporarily down to 4, which is what is needed for the basic weekday service, so there are no spares for at least the next few weeks until the damaged car can be repaired. No word on which of the cars was involved.
From the report I saw, there have been many near-misses as motorists get 'accustomed' to the streetcar. (I'm not sure how 'accustomed' one has to become with a 66' vehicle on the street to know not to mess with it, but of course we live in a country where people try to beat heavy freight trains at crossings all the time...)
You can see from the dented and bashed skirts below the anticlimbers on ALRVs that plenty of people in Toronto aren't accustomed to the 75 feet long streetcars on Queen St., which have been there for 14 years now, and still do stupid things to get into accidents with them all the time. I've even had the privilige of seeing a few take place as a bystander near the camera store district on several occasions.
If this is any example to go by, don't get your hopes up for the people in Portland - you'll probably be disappointed!
-Robert King
Of course, in Toronto, you have lots of replacement ALRV's. In Portland, if one more car comes up lame, service may have to be suspended. Those 2 additional cars are supposed to be coming in from Skoda by the end of the year, but anything could happen to delay this, I'm sure.
the times square shuttle seems to make people wail longer than nececary, at times i see all trains in gct when all trains are running
why is service like this
Ask Traindude.
Why do the people wail? Also, doesn't your computer have capital letters and periods?
- Lyle Goldman
Apparently, lincoln has contracted a case of heypaul syndrome.
Some people don't bother to proofread their posts. Others don't bother to coordinate the dispatching of shuttle trains.
You can co-ordinate all you want. If the doors don't close, the shuttle don't move: guess why the doors don't close?
The shuttle trains are too short?
That, and the fact that even after the "closing doors" announcement is made, people are rushing towards the train like it's the last one! They get in the way of the closing doors and delays everyone.
In case there's someone who still doesn't know how long those trains are, the train on tracks 1 and 4 are both three cars long, and the one on track 3 is four cars long. Each train is made of the respective number of R62A cars.
An interesting thing about the train on track 4: At the Times Square station, all the doors on the right side of the train open, except one panel at the back of the train. That part of the train is right at the edge of the station! I'd take a picture of that part, but it's waaaaay too crowded back there!
There seems to be some sort of work going on next to the Track 4 platform at TS. Dare we hope that the TA will find a way to provide just a little more platform over there?
...And to think "Abe" was once our PRESIDENT!!
I'm sure I'm not the first to see it, but it was the first time I saw it--R110's on the diamond Q!! It was stopped at Newkirk while I was on my way to the city on a slant. I wonder if that train of 110's on the Brighton Express sped down to the Beach?? Anybody ridden on one?? Tony
R110s? On the BMT? Are you certain?
IIRC, those cars were ONLY out of 207 for occasion "C"harlie line service, since 3 out of the 9 cars were stripped for parts for the remaining 6 MUs.
All 9 cars are operational as of now.
If all nine are operational now, the question remains, what line are they operating on?
No, nine are not in operation. Only 6 out of 9 MUs are in service. 3007-8-9 were stripped for parts to enable 3001-6 to operate.
I don't know if these MUs are in service still on the "C"harlie.
They have been under the microscope to be returned back to service. There are some pictures of them recently at www.nycrail.com where you can see equipment all inside the cars.
They are handsome cars. More attractive, in some ways, than the 142 and 143.
They sure are. But the interior seats need some work. I think the R143's shiny nice front is nice as well. Is that fiberglass or polymer?
I said operational, not in service or anything like that. Operational meaning able to move under their own power. I don't know if they're usable, but they are operational.
They ARE??? I thought the Parts Vultures at 207th Street Shoppe picked over the three high-number cars. If not, when did these return to service?
wayne
They are not. 3 are O/S. I spoke to Ted Kozcon at 2-7 the other day with regard to this.
When 'Ted' said they are "O/S" did he say: "they're still unoperational", or did he say that they were "not running". There's a big difference.
Not running because they are unoperational.
There is a set of three R-110Bs at 207 yard. We saw them on the tour this morning.
Those 3 R110 MUs are maybe the ones that were stripped for parts for the other 6 MUs.
Yes. 3001-3006 are okay. 3007-3009 have been stripped of parts but are getting them replaced to be operable again.
The R110 MU I saw had its taillights on.
All train's tail lights come on when the reverse key or switch isn't set.
I asked the tour guide at 207 yesterday if the 3 R-110's were able to operate, and he replied that they were. They looked in good shape although that does not indicate whether critical parts have not been removed.
its true because he the ta rebult them at 207.the line maybe the a
I think you were having a railfan dream.
Or possibly a R143...What were the numbers?
Better hook up with that person why was certain he rode a train across the Queensboro Bridge a few years back :)
--Mark
Sir, you're scaring me. Can you please waltz yourself to the Roster section of this website and ID the car you saw. It is possible to be an R110B or R143. If it was an R110B, I doubt it was in service. The upper portion of the Q Express Line is not readied for R110B service, there are no C/R boards there. The R110B is shopped at 207 Street and it'd also seem pointless. It may have been the R143 doing some speed tests I guess heading from East New York Yard to the Sea Beach for some tests there as well.
But don't they go to Culver for testing, NOT Sea Beach or Brighton? Those cars are all over the place testing, but aren't all over the place IN SERVICE!
Actually, I think Culver only does braking tests.
If you saw the cars, what numbers were they, and there are differences in the front of the 110B to the 143. Letter route sign is on top and not on left window like the 110's. Marker and headlight configuration is larger on the 143's compared to the 110's. And the 143's are 60 ft. cars compared to the 110B at 67 ft. If you really saw them, I want to know.
Well I know for a fact that the entire brighton line has R-110 boards. I was on it today. Even the local stations have the boards. I saw one at Ave J. So it seems as though there are conductor boards for them. Maybe he really did see r110b's at Newkirk.
Only the whole A and (former) D Line is R110B ready. But since the new Q Line runs up Broadway, it puts an R110B in service out of the question.
This evening, I went to check my E-Mail. Admittedly, since I'm on vacation I've been doing too much motorcycling and neglecting my correspondence. However, when I went to check tonight, there were over 1,700 messages in my in-box. I can't even load the page so unless the good people at hotmail can give me some ideas, I'll likely need to empty the in-box. I'm not looking for suggestions but if I owe you an answer, wait another day, then send your message again and hope for the best.
Isn't there a Feature that allows you to limit the number of messages on the page?
This is why I don't even check my Hotmail account anymore. If you have an American Express card you could open a free e-mail account with them using USA.net which seems to me to do much better in filtering out the spam.
Don't bother with free email. Idf you want a reliable email service, bite the bullet and pay a few bucks per month for AT&T or Earthlink.
You are making assumptions that are not necessarilly true. I happen to pay an ISP for my service and get an E-mail address with the account. I use that one for friends and family. I use hotmail for my train-stuff & for e-bay.
Which wrong assumption did I make?
Just wanted to point out that Hotmail is hardly the only web-based free e-mail. I assume you know about the extrememly reliable Yahoo Mail, and there is also Excite Mail, which offers as part of its free e-mail service the ability to hear voice mail in RealAudio if you give out a toll-free number. (Of course, that company is rumored to be teetering, so it may not be there for long.)
But, on top of all that, no proud New Yorker should overlook these e-mail addresses, all of which are available for free on the web:
_____________@nyc.com
_____________@newyorkcity.com
_____________@newyork.com
_____________@ny.com
You can sign up for any of these e-mail addresses by going to the respective sites. Actually, nyc.com and newyorkcity.com are the same, and you can sign up for either of those two e-mail addresses by going to either of those two sites. The other two -- ny.com and newyork.com must be visited seperately.
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- You won't be able to get "cesarano" at any of those.
Perhaps you need to wait a long time for the page to load? I just recently returned from vacation, too, an had an inordinate amount of e-mail. It took the page a long time to load, but it finally did ....
--Mark
If the inbox page won't load, it is likely that you have the thing set to display *all* inbox messages on one page. You can change this so that only a small number of messages appear on any one page.
After you log in, the first Hotmail page you see (the "home" page) should load easily, no matter how many messages you have waiting. This is a new thing at Hotmail. Hotmail has recently chaged it so that, when you log in, you first go to a "home" page, and have to click on "Inbox" to see your messages; whereas, formerly, you were placed in your inbox immediately after logging in. (When I first saw this feature, I was a little annoyed; yet, this feature proves useful in a case like this.)
To change it so that your inbox will load, first log in as usual, and get to the home page. Then, select "Options" (instead of "Inbox") on that page.
When you get to the "Options" page, you will see a heading that reads "Mail Display Settings". Clicking on this will allow you to set the maximum messages to be displayed on any one page. You can set it to a manageable number like 50 or 100.
If you select 50, you will then have your 1700 messages displayed on 34 separate pages. You will then have to go each page, click the box which allows you to "select" all messages on that page, and then click the "Delete" button which appears on the top and the bottom of each page.
A bit annoying, but, it will clear your box.
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- I once had a similar -- but even worse -- problem back in 1997 (before Hotmail was part of Microsoft, by the way). At that time, not only was there no Hotmail "home" page (so you were placed right into your inbox upon logging in), but the "Delete" button appeared only at the *bottom* of the inbox page. Complicating matters was the fact that I have WebTV (also later on a part of Microsoft, and recently renamed "MSN TV"), which has a maximum viewable page size. If you try to view a page that is too big, you will see down to a certain point, and then you will see the message "This page is too big to be viewed completely." So, I had about 400 messages in my inbox. The inbox took 10 minutes to load, and then I saw that it had not loaded all the way to the bottom, so I had no way to hit the "Delete" button! Happy ending: with the help of a phone call to a patient friend, I managed to empty the box before it got worse.
I just read Consumer Reports, which rates MSN the worst ISP of the bunch including AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, and Earthlink. The top three were:
1. BellSouth (which is not national)
2. AT&T Worldnet
3. Earthlink
I have been having trouble accessing my earthlink email accounts via Webmail, which used to be the way to do it remotely. I'm not sure if my employer has restricted Webmail, but I have seen no messages to that effect.
1,700 messages?
And me thought HotMail had a limit of 500 scribbles.
Does Hotmail allow you to download mail to your own machine via POP? That should be a bit easier to manage, but first make sure you have enough disk space.
Microsquish has made Hotmail Web based only. My daughter uses it for personal mail, and it cannot be downloaded.
it cannot be downloaded.
Yes it can. Only if you use Outlook Express
over the weekend i took the ts-gct shuttle, and as i got off at gct, i noticed what looked like some sort of lit up platform down the track that connects to the downtown lex. av line. I was in a rush, so i didn't get a good look, but it seemed to be some sort of new, brightly lit platform in on the lefthand side of the tunnel.
the question of course is: was i seeing things? if not, is it some sorta work platform, like the money train platforms?
On a related topic, i also heard a long while ago that there was an entrance in this tunnel into the old belmont hotel above, so one mr. belmont might go downstairs, hop in the mineola (which probably should have been called the 'belmontmobile' judging from this rumor), and head off to the racetrack (perhaps via the LIRR connection in downtown brooklyn - though that seemed to be another hotly debated tale of subway lore). Anyone know if there's actually anything behind this story, or some proof of it?
-Joe
ps-for all the operatives: have your warsaw pact units ready. code transmission delta. end broadcast.
Could you be thinking of the New York Central spur tracks that run under the Waldorf?
Nopers. this was a seperate location from a hotel belmont owned on the southwest corner of park and 42nd (I believe).
Or was it the Commodore on the NW corner of Lex and 42nd St?
The Belmont Hotel also seems to have had access to the Steinway tunnels, since that was their destination and the site of their opening party after the first ride from Queens. I haven't heard anything about this access, but why would Belmont not put it in, seeing that he owned all that stuff and liked things secret and easy?
As I mentioned when we spoke, I'm curious as to how they got the Mineola freshly stocked with food and cold champagne whenever Mr. Belmont had a whim to go on a cruise. I also can't quite picture the train pulling up and honking so he could leap into it from some dingy stoop before another train came along.
Do you know exactly where the Belmont Hotel was?
The Belmont was on the southwest corner of 42nd and Park. In Stan Fischler's book, "The Subway", a photo shows the author standing next to a sealed-up doorway that he surmises was the subway entrance to the hotel.
was the doorway in the tunnel?
that's one subway book i never read... sounds like i gotta go find it.
I never heard of the connection to the steinway tube, though it wouldn't surprise me at all. wasn't the belmont hotel on the SW corner of 42nd and park? I saw it on some map, but don't recall what the building is today (or if it was torn down and replaced by something else).
i'd assume they stocked the mineola at a yard or on some siding somewhere. ??
All those answers and no one even addressed the question.
What you are seeing is just off of the original right of way which is used for storage and also leads to the Grand Central switch tower. In the passageway from the shuttle to the Lex you will find a set of doors about midpoint. That leads to the storage area and tower.
I believe (can't verify this) that originally it was a solid wall but after the shuttle was created (and the Lex line created as well) a portion was removed to allow for ease of access for supplies and equipment.
I recall the wall being there on a tour ages ago, though they've improved the area a bit, so perhaps they just removed a big chunnk of the wall, tiled and lit it up a bit better?
that's my best theory...
Could be. It has been quite a while since I was behind that door so things may have been brightened up a lot.
I must plead ignorance about this. I know that there is a connection between shuttle 1 track & M/L #1 track on the Lex line. Tis passes a tower and what you see may be a walk-way that's illuminateb by banks of lights. Sorry I can't be more helpful........
i saw the tower once on the day 1 tour, (the tower overlooks the NB local track, correct? or what that something else?), and i recall that there was a wall between the old trackways and the track that connects to the lex line. perhaps the wall was simply removed and the area back there better lit up, as that entire area seems to have been given an upgrade over the years.
hopefully i can stop by soon and get a better look down the track - it's not far at all from the shuttle platform, whatever it is.
If you live in Astoria, and are interested in better transit for the city, don't vote for John J. Ciafone for City Council!
We usually tend to associate Transit NIMBYism with our more affluent suburban neighbors, but, of course, we have some home-grown variety right here in New York City.
At the foot of the stairway entrance to the Broadway stop in Astoria this morning, citi council candidate John J. Ciafone was handing out campaign postcards, so I grabbed one to read on my way to work. About four paragraphs into his bio, after his education and public service credits, it reads, "As your community Activist, Ciafone has fought against the proliferation of Power Plants, against the N-Train extension to LaGuardia Airport, against..."
I suppose if you want to get elected from Astoria, you must state your opposition to improved transit if it's going to disrupt your constituents' neighborhoods.
Other interesting things to note from the postcard:
Tag line: "You Voted for Term Limits. Now, here is your opportunity to End The Dynasty!"
There's also a teeny-tiny little "stamp" on the front which says, "Labor Donated."
I wish I had had time to stop and talk to the guy, not so I could try to turn him around (who, besides me and fellow SubTalkers who live in Astoria, would ever be for the N-Train extension?), but so I could hear a NIMBY's reasoning first-hand. I would have relayed my story from this weekend about how I could have read War and Peace in the time it took me to get home from the Delta Terminal to that same Broadway stop using the jam-packed M-60 bus.
It's always easier for candidates to spout ignorant nonsense than to deal with the issues in a serious way.
And many politicos are dumb as a box of bowling balls and have their "positions" written up for them by political study groups. I always get a kick out of "meet the candidate" situations where I've asked them questions about what was on their "position paper" and damned if most of the time, they had no idea they had taken such a position. Yet we VOTE for 'em ...
And that's why I'd rather vote for a communist than Mark Green, who wants to target juvenile crime (you know, only 13% of all crime).
Mark Green, who wants to target juvenile crime (you know, only 13% of all crime).
Are you implying that juvenile criminals never grow up to become adult criminals by your analysis?
So people should be punished for crimes they haven't yet committed in addition to present crimes by your analysis?
And by your analysis, people in correctional facilities actually get corrected?
...people in correctional facilities actually get corrected?
Not very often, as I'm sure you are aware. But if you look at the adults in correctional facilities, a large percentage of those convicted of non-"white collar" crimes were also in trouble with the law as juveniles. So targeting juvenile crime is a good way to reduce adult crime later on, regardless of how you do it. Personally, I'd prefer to suggest the juvies get a firm grip on the third rail while standing on one of the running rails... then we can guarantee they won't become adult criminals.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
a large percentage of those convicted of non-"white collar" crimes were also in trouble with the law as juveniles.
So what? A large percentage of criminals have committed previous crimes as adults. Maybe we should target their crime too.
The best solution is to execute everyone for their first offense, then you won't have anyone with a criminal history.
I thought Mark Green was a Communist.
He's a socialist, there's actually a difference.
-Hank
I stand corrected.
What an idiot. I thought that the anencephalics already on the City Council were as thickheaded as you could get. But it looks as if John Ciafone would lower the average I.Q. score if elected.
Any lower and he'd have to borrow IQ points from his fellow Councilpeople...
They don't have any to spare. One needs a few points to maintain a heartbeat and breathing.
[re borrowing I.Q. points from City Council members]
They don't have any to spare. One needs a few points to maintain a heartbeat and breathing.
Actually (I'm sure Ron from Bayside or Jailhouse Doc could correct me if I'm wrong), I believe that only the brain stem is needed to control respiration and heartbeat. The brain proper, what one visualizes when one hears the term "brain," is responsible for the thinking and reasoning processes that separate humans from, say, protozoans. All I.Q. points "reside" in that part of the brain. As a result, a person with only a brain stem will have essentially zero I.Q. and no human thinking capacity, but can maintain a rudimentary sort of "life" for a period, not entirely unlike a decapitated chicken.
This explains the City Council.
Yeah, you got it right, basically. As Selkirk would say, "Heh."
MMMmooo! :)
And for politicos, I don't believe the brainstem is required either, just regular household current.
"improved transit"?
Theres a million and one better ways, discussed every other week on this board, on how one might construct a subway to Lga. extending the N will never happen in any of our lifetimes.
Which reminds me, I forgot to mention the ironic thing about the info on the card. Let me transcribe these two paragraphs, as they appear on the flyer:
"As your community Activist, Ciafone has fought against the proliferation of Power Plants, against the N-Train extension to LaGuardia Airport, against Adult Pornography Bars and Shops in our Community and volunteered in Anti-Crime Community Patrols.
Ciafone has fought for more Police, Cleaner Streets, better subway and bus service and more services for our community including Affordable Housing, Senior Housing, and extending senior programs including EPIC, STAR, and SCRIE."
Now, I know he's an aspiring politician, but usually it takes a while before we see blatant contradictions like this! Sure, a subway to LGA would be great, just NOT IN MY BACKYARD!
No matter how you do it, some neighborhoods are going to be distrupted to get the subway to the airport, most likely in his district too.
BTW, the capitalizations are his, not mine. I suspect his advisors "talking points" were simply fleshed-out for the card.
someone, somewhere will be disrupted if they ever get a train to the airport - no doubt about that - but will they only be disturbed by it's construction (if it's a new tunnel route) or by it's construction and then continued presence (an extend el line), is a big part of the game.
it is nice to see this candidate contradicting himself all on one campaign flyer. "improved transit" with no new lines? how'll that work? "the profileration of power plants"? and what in the blue hell is that suppose to mean? "proliferation"? where does he think they're going? I know... i think the 59th bridge looks unsightly and ugly, let me argue against its "proliferation".
*%#&@# please.
"As your community Activist, Ciafone has fought against the proliferation of Power Plants, against the N-Train extension to LaGuardia Airport, against Adult Pornography Bars and Shops in our Community"
It looks like the N train extension is in the same category as power plants and porno shops!
The rigid upright girders trembled and quivered in anticipation as the smutty "N" train strutted with glitter and boldness as it ran its Extension through the soft yeilding center of the innocent community, forsaking all modesty..... it was on a track to internatioal entanglements, bringing shame and dispair back through its former home.
Oh, how have we fallen so low? Bring out the SCARLET LETTER "N" and sew it to your breast, for all the world to see!
avid
I guess the plan is:
If there are no new power plants, there won't be enough electricity to power the subway, so you won't be able to get to the porno shop anyway, which you won't be able to see anything in even if you could get there because, like I said, there is no power -- for the lights. Genius!
I have trouble figuring out what this guy is for. He's clearly against everything. Does that leave anything to be for?
Being FOR something means he has to think!! It's easy to just be against any ideas someone else comes up with.
That sounds like what my sister used to do when we were little kids. "Play with me" she would say one Saturday morning. Anything I suggested she rejected. But when I gave up and asked her to suggest an activity, she would get upset with me and demand that I come up with more ideas for her to reject.
Now someone wants to do just that, only it's not a harmless activity on a Saturday morning and he'll draw a salary to do it...scary.
PS She now has kids of her own...Wonder what they do...
Dude, don't you realize...you WERE playing with her! She already NAMED the game!
It's called, "Let's see how long it takes to annoy my brother."
I used to play this game at home a lot. You should try the 'Other people's home' version!
-Hank
Now you tell me!
She must have been good at it, come to think of it. She never once looked like she enjoyed it (I guess that's the skill part).
He's for those who are moving out and dying off, and against those who are moving in and planning to stay. For senior centers, against schools and infrastructure investment. Just like the current Councilmember. Who doesn't seem to be doing so well in the Mayoral race.
I remember visiting my wife's grandmother in a Bay Ridge senior center before she died, and talking about things she read about in the Daily News. She had a much different perspective than her contemporaries. Why?
a) She was a nicer person.
b) Her grandchild and great grandchildren also lived in Brooklyn.
So she cared about the future -- the schools, the subways we ride.
Her neighbors? Their descedents were all in the suburbs and beyond. "To heck with the people living in the city today; they're not like us." But they all died off. And thanks to term limits, their representatives will finally be gone too.
I hope 1965 or 1977 won't be back (with the blackouts).
I support subway extension to LaGuardia. But you know what? If I lived on 31st Street between Dirmars and 20th Avenue, I wouldn't want a noisy el there either. I suppose other plans have been discussed on subtalk over and over....
www.forgotten-ny.com
But that's the source of the problem. "Noisy" and "el" don't belong together anymore. You, and many others, are not aware of just how quiet a new El can be. "Noisy el" was reality in 1960. It is a misnomer today. That's why MTA would have to do a good job educating people about it. The PA's AirTrain serves as a good lesson in community outreach.
The PA's AirTrain serves as a good lesson in community outreach.
Yeah. It's so quiet you barely know it's there.
On the other hand, I've stood beneath that little piece of "new" El that connects the J to the tunnel at Jamaica Avenue. Thumbs down! I hope that's not the best they can do. It sounded just as noisey as the old El a few feet away. Verrry disappointing!
I've never stood there, but I've ridden the train, and there is a qualitative difference in both vibration and noise on the train. Much better, I think. Of course that may not directly translate to improvement on the street.
Theres a million and one better ways, discussed every other week on this board, on how one might construct a subway to Lga. extending the N will never happen in any of our lifetimes.
All the other ways I've ever seen discussed are either very expensive (bury the entire Astoria el as a subway that runs to LGA) and/or adversely impact existing well-used subway and LIRR services further east (branches to LGA off the Queens Blvd, Flushing, or LIRR lines).
(Theres a million and one better ways, discussed every other week on this board, on how one might construct a subway to Lga. extending the N will never happen in any of our lifetimes.
All the other ways I've ever seen discussed are either very expensive (bury the entire Astoria el as a subway that runs to LGA) and/or adversely impact existing well-used subway and LIRR services
further east (branches to LGA off the Queens Blvd, Flushing, or LIRR lines).)
I agree. The only other idea I've heard that makes sense I heard from a Port Authority person. That is to accept there is not one-seat ride and run the Airtrain up from Jamaica through Flushing and LaGuardia, down the LIRR and BQE ROWs (over them a la Airtrain) to a series of terminals in Long Island City with a variety of connections.
Vallone said "over my dead body" to the N train extension. McCaffery (from Woodside) said "over my dead body" to the plan above or anything like it, since it would go through his district.
Underground at exhorbitant cost OK? Spano, in Westchester, said "over my dead body" to a buried natural gas pipeline (a friend from Westchester told me that unless they find a way for it to through Black neighborhoods on its entire route it will never be built).
I'm not gunna rattle through all the ideas for routes there that never got studied - i'm sure it's all in the archive. the bottom line is this: if they wanted to build a tunnel, it would happen. the inconvience would be a temporary matter during construction (assuming it was done with some speed like the good olde days) = while en elevated creates a permenant noisey structure where there once was not one.
sure, tunnels are more expensive to build, but ask anyone suffering ever few years with the manny b bridge flips how relatively low maintance and reliable they are by comparision.
either way, it's a &*%$$#! mess.
I'm not arguing that els make better transit lines than subways. I'm arguing that subways are so expensive you might as well give up on ever building one to LGA. We're still waiting for the Second Avenue subway to replace el lines long demolished, and that's in an area with much more need for a new transit line than LGA.
Not many choices on the matter, apparently:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/ny-qcouncil22.story
In Woodside, McCaffery's would-be successors have focused on the power plants, but not transit (yet?):
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/ny-qcouncil26.story
It has been said it is extending N or nothing for LGA access. I sure hope it isn't the latter. Maybe the Council will ignore a first-termer from Astoria and build it.
I still say let the PA do the final AirTrain and complete their trilogy, and let MTA save their (scant) money for Second Ave.
I'd support that.
let MTA save their (scant) money for Second Ave.
The MTA could save even more money by making the 2nd Ave line an El. 2nd Avenue is a lot wider than 31st St or 19th Aves in Queens, so the modern El's reduced profile should make it presence even less intrusive than the acceptable limits proposed for Astoria. Background noise is greater on 2nd Ave than in Astoria, so the new "quiet" El should hardly be noticed.
With a single T-Bent or Y-Bent design, and a fancy median on 2nd Av, that could work, I suppose. But you'd invite a NIMBY assault that a 2nd Av subway would not have to deal with.
Choices, choices...
...But you'd invite a NIMBY assault that a 2nd Av subway would not have to deal with.
Why should not Astoria residents be shown the same consideration?
Because the proposed extension of the N runs for only two residential blocks (and hooks into an existing El that the occupants of those two blocks have had the benefit of without sharing any of the burden) instead of 6 or 8 miles.
By your comparison of 2 blocks to 6 or 8 miles are you trying to raise the notion of a cost benefit ratio?
If he is, it's appropriate and relevant to the discussion.
Beware of cost-benefit ratios with Bauman. His discount rate appears to be 20 percent.
Worse than that. He doesn't believe in benefits. So a cost/benefit fraction in Baumann's world results in an error message on the calculator (you can't divide by zero).
I don't use inflated benefits like some advocates for LGA access. For example, the number of employees within LGA is under 10,000 NOT 50,000. There can be no future benefit derived from increasing air traffic at LGA because the airport is already MAXED OUT. These two factors alone place a fairly tight lid on who will benefit from this link.
Do you consider it of no benefit that some people who currently drive to LGA will ride the subway, clearing up space on the roads and helping the environment, or that some who now have no reasonable choice but to ride taxis will have a more affordable means of reaching the airport?
Do you consider it of no benefit that some people who currently drive to LGA will ride the subway, clearing up space on the roads and helping the environment
The assumption that roads will clear up and the environment will be improved is dependent on the assumption that not additional drivers will rush in to fill this space. Given that this assumption holds to some degree, what would the net gain in these areas be in proportion to the traffic volume that is already there? I would be very much surprised if this figure exceeds 5% of current highway use in the near vicinity of LGA.
or that some who now have no reasonable choice but to ride taxis will have a more affordable means of reaching the airport?
The benefit for this proposed extension is limited to the people who use it. I think this number is quite limited and predictable, based on the O'Hare and Midway experience in Chicago.
And the subway system, of course, is of no benefit to people who drive cars.
The simplest, least expensive way to prevent congestion on the ground side at LGA is to close the airport. Failing that, the number of flights per hour at peak times could be reduced by 20-50%.
Of course, if you aren't willing to reduce the demand for access to LGA, the only other option is to increase the supply. Somehow, I don't think that bicycle lanes are going to help. I wonder if your assumption that there is a straight-line relationship between road volume and congestion is valid for all levels of traffic. It seems to me that a 5% reduction in road volume might have an effect on congestion ranging from none to complete elimination, depending on where current volume is in relation to capacity.
It seems to me that a 5% reduction in road volume might have an effect on congestion ranging from none to complete elimination, depending on where current volume is in relation to capacity.
There can be road congestion at at traffic levels far below lane capacity. "Rubbernecking" is an example of this phenomenon. It is due to a single vehicle slowing down. Congestion then propagates backwards in relation to the direction of travel. This one of the major congestion causes. One would have to operate highways at 10% of their rated capacity to eliminate this type of congestion. Therefore, I'd venture that the highway volume reduction of rail acces to LGA would have little or no effect on highway congestion.
Assuming that the number of flights at LGA remains stable (eg no increase), then introduction of rail service and its use will result in some shifting of passengers to rail. Car traffic will initially dip, then increase again only to the point of established demand.
The big issue on 2nd Avenue, as Paul Matus' article on the Second Avenue El, is traffic movement. Trucks and buses from the north (including transit express buses) can't use the FDR. It's pretty much the 2nd Avenue/1st Avenue pair.
A modern el is quiet, but not that quiet. I've advocated paying compensation for those living on the two blocks directly adjacent in Astoria, so they can leave if they want. Maybe they should be commercial.
On Second Ave, the el would be right against the towers, it would be scores of blocks instead of two, and the population density is greater. You can't possibly pay all those people off and tear all those buildings down. If the Second Avenue El was still up, and the issue was extending it two blocks through a residential area, then I'd say yeah, extend it don't tear it down.
You could do a monorail, with pillars in the parking lane, but you'd lose the link with the rest of the system: it would help Manhattan only.
So yes, I believe that building a Second Ave subway and a ahort extension of the Astoria El is not hypocricy. And, as I've said, I'd at least like to hold out the possibility of a further extention to College Point, where Park-N-Ride facilities could be provided for eastern Queens on the wasteland of the former Flushing Airport.
BTW, I live in a flight path, and lived for many years overlooking the Prospect Expressway, where I chose to move. I didn't whine about it.
BTW, I live in a flight path, and lived for many years overlooking the Prospect Expressway, where I chose to move. I didn't whine about it.
Isn't the Prospect Expressway in a trench for most of its distance?
So is the Vine Expressway in Philly. Live next to it? You can hear the din.
I agree with your logic. You post quite reasonably.
On Second Ave, the el would be right against the towers, it would be scores of blocks instead of two, and the population density is greater. You can't possibly pay all those people off and tear all those buildings down. If the Second Avenue El was still up, and the issue was extending it two blocks through a residential area, then
I'd say yeah, extend it don't tear it down.
You could do a monorail, with pillars in the parking lane, but you'd lose the link with the rest of the system: it would help Manhattan only.
So yes, I believe that building a Second Ave subway and a ahort extension of the Astoria El is not hypocricy.
Not to mention the fact that a Second Avenue subway was promised 75 years ago and paid for 30 years ago. Building an El instead, even if it were practical (as you point out, it isn't) would be akin to breaking that promise.
The big issue on 2nd Avenue, as Paul Matus' article on the Second Avenue El, is traffic movement.
This is really a non-issue. The support pillars for a new elevated would straddle the sidewalks rather than be in the middle of the roadway like the old Second Avenue El.
On Second Ave, the el would be right against the towers,
The width of Second Avenue, like most Manhattan avenues, is 96 feet building line to building line. The width of the roadway is 60 feet with 18 foot wide sidewalks. The roadway was widened below 60th St to 72 feet by removing 6 feet from each sidewalk. The width of a subway track is a max of 15 feet. Even a 4 track elevated line would leave 30 feet buffer space to the property line.
...it would be scores of blocks instead of two...
The towers, to the extent that they exist, would cast an acoustic shadow and limit noise levels behind them. The avenue blocks are much longer than the crosstown blocks. You should really measure the "noise zone" in feet or meters.
You could do a monorail, with pillars in the parking lane, but you'd lose the link with the rest of the system: it would help Manhattan only.
The proposed Second Ave plan helps the outer boroughs by diverting passengers from Manhattan from the existing lines. An el would have the same effect.
"The towers, to the extent that they exist, would cast an acoustic shadow and limit noise levels behind them. The avenue blocks are much longer than the crosstown blocks. You should really measure the "noise zone" in feet or meters."
You must be aware that an elevated structure, if not properly set up, can amplify noise generated under it (car brakes, stereos, conversations, engines running etc.).
amplify
Amplify, no. What's its energy source for amplification.
Reverberate, possibly. As such, the deviation to the inverse square dispersion in free space would be limited to directly under the elevated structure.
"Amplify, no. What's its energy source for amplification"
The same as the effect you get from ac simple rolled tube.
"Reverberate, possibly. As such, the deviation to the inverse square dispersion in free space would be limited to directly under the elevated structure."
Then why am I affected even though I'm not under the bridge?
The same as the effect you get from ac simple rolled tube.
Like a megaphone?
Then why am I affected even though I'm not under the bridge?
Clearly, clearly you have some anecdotal experience in mind. Could you give some more details? Which bridge? Where was the sound source? Where was the observer? etc.
A median on a one-way street? Not unheard of, but generally awkward, and usually an artifact of former two-way status.
...down the LIRR and BQE ROWs ...
The problem with this alignment is that it goes right through the Woodside Houses complex. These people are already subject to excessive noise from Amtrak's Hell Gate Bridge trains. The amount of noise these trains generate is unbelievable considering the distance that the project is from the tracks. Their skepticism and cynicism about a quiet unobtrusive Airtrain is understandable.
Unfortunately, the least obtrusive route -- which would be to split a new line off the No. 7 train at Shea and run it elevated along the Flushing Bay side of the Grand Central Parkway to LaGuardia -- is also the most unlikely, since Main St. Flushing can't afford to lose the number of trains per hour a seperate branch to the airport would require.
[since Main St. Flushing can't afford to lose the number of trains per hour a seperate branch to the airport would require. ]
That sort of implies that the train only serves Main St passangers.
Arti
Well, Main St is the origin/destination for a great many riders on the 7. Not sure what the percentages are, but even on weekends I often have to stand the whole way from Grand Central to Main St.
Well, Main St is the origin/destination for a great many riders on the 7. Not sure what the percentages are, but even on weekends I often have to stand the whole way from Grand Central to Main St.
The 7 is probably the only line, apart from the shuttles and maybe the L, on which a significant percentage of the riders regularly travel terminal-to-terminal. On most other lines that percentage is probably almost zero.
throw in the "E" for terminal-terminal rides.
avid
Also, to a lesser extend, probably the J. And all shuttles.
If there were other lines in the area, I'd agree, but Main Street not only has to serve as a terminal for Flushing but for buses going to and from other sections of NE Queens (though if Steven's right about the greater train-per-hour capacity at Times Square than at Main Street due to the tail tracks, there may actually be some room for a LaGuardia spur to be built feasibly).
Main St. Flushing can't afford to lose the number of trains per hour a seperate branch to the airport would require.
That may be true BUT Main St can handle a maximum of only 30 tph, whereas Times Sq can handle 40 tph. The TA recently spent over $30 million dollars to prevent expanding the Main St capacity beyond the 30 tph limit. Even in the old days when they ran 36 tph, only 24 tph originated/terminated at Main St; the remainder originated/terminated at Willets Pt or 111th St.
If there is a 10 TPH difference, than I suppose they could split off the line between 111th St. and Willet's Point (or between Willets Point and Main Street, if having a flying junction over the Corona yard flying junction is too complicated), and run the remaining capacity to LGA.
With the track mergers and peak hour express runs, I don't know if they could add a full 10 trains to match the 40 TPH limit at Times Square, but even seven or eight TPH to the airport would still mean a train would be leaving LaGuardia every seven to eight minutes, and there really isn't any place to put other stops if you ran the line along the bay between LGA and Roosevelt Ave.
In a utopian world, the 7 extension would be built adjacent to, or even as part of, the new "Ebbets Field' the Mets plan in the parking lot next to Shea. Wouldn't have to get wet while entering the ballpark.
The big problem with the backward to Flushing then onto Manhattan on the #7 route is the 20+ minutes it would add, each way. It would eliminate the value of the connection -- a faster, more consistent trip.
The big problem with the backward to Flushing then onto Manhattan on the #7 route is the 20+ minutes it would add, each way.
Could you justify that statement? The distance from Willets Pt to LGA is about the same as from Ditmars to LGA - approximately 4 miles. The running time for either route should be about the same 12 minutes.
The running time from Ditmars to 57th St is 18 minutes according to the schedule. Add another 2-3 minutes to get from 57th to Times Sq. This makes the total time from LGA to Times Sq to 32 minutes.
The running time from Willets Pt to Times Sq is 28 minutes for the local and 24 minutes for the express, according to the schedule. This makes the total time from LGA to Times Sq 40 minutes via the local and 36 minutes for the express.
So the total time difference between the Willets Pt route and the Astoria route is 4 to 8 minutes and NOT the 20+ minutes you stated.
Well, what's the thing that somebody's building in record time to connect JFK with LGA, and does anybody know exactly HOW it connects with the Subway and WHERE?
Not to mention, can you transfer onto it with a metrocard ;)
Here's the website for Airtrain:
http://portnynj.com/airtrain/
I only glanced at it, but could find nothing about fares, beyond a general statement that revenues are expected to exceed operating costs.
David
From the "Service" section of that page:
Fare Collection
AirTrain fare collection will include use of the MTA MetroCard, so that AirTrain passengers will be able to purchase AirTrain airport access service with the same card they use to ride the subways. On-airport usage will be free.
Kind of a shock to me, actually. Also, I was under the impression that Jamaica to JFK would cost $5 or so.
I doubt they mean unlimited cards. It's still shocking though.
An interagency fare collection deal... I hate to speculate, but it looks like the beginning of a regional fare card.
We already have one. Not only can I use my MetroCard on a private bus, I can even use an unlimited card or a transfer from an NYCT service.
Good point. I never thought I'd see the day the Port Authority would cooperate, though.
The machines at AirTrain can be programmed to subtract any amount from a stored-value Metrocard.
Sure. But even with equal fares we still can't use Metrocard on the Roosevelt Island tram, PATH or HBLRT. Oh well...
Hope springs eternal...
As can any other Metrocard equipment. Likely, there will be fare controls only at the subway connections. (Entry and Exit)
-Hank
Same card doesn't mean same fare.
There is no such thing being built.
There is, however, something being built from JFK to the LIRR at Jamaica Station. It's called Airtrain. When it's finished, you will be able to take it to the E or J/Z at Sutphin Blvd., next to Jamaica Station. There's also a branch being built to the A train at Howard Beach.
It won't go anywhere near LGA.
Thank you for this information, Keystone Pete. I will be voting for his opponent.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Watch out. I believe his opponent is Peter Vallone's son!
Yes. I think anyone who ran in our district in support of the LGA extension would probably not just lose, but *ahem* be run out of the hood on a rail!
Thanks for your post! Stuff like this is VERY valuable!
What are opponent Peter Vallone Jr's positions on the N extension to LaGuardia? If I had to guess, I suppose he opposes it too.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Like father like son. My point is, I haven't seen any campaign literature from him actually mentioning the issue, but I have yet to read through my voter guide.
Whatever daddy says. Anyone ever see 'The Distinguished Gentleman' with Eddie Murphy? The power of name recognition...
-Hank
Speaking of fathers, mine once gave me this advice round about the time I turned 18: "Unless there's a compelling reason to do the contrary, always vote against the incumbent."
Does anyone know the phone number or e-mail address for GPS Video in Toronto? I purchased their tape, "Boston Trolleys Part 3" up at the IRM and there's a problem with the tape.
TIA.
Try contacting the IRM - perhaps they have a phone number, or would be willing to send you a repalcement tape.
--Mark
Do any of you remember the thread from a little while ago where wrote about the bad summer job boss that never paid me and later ripped off one of my friends? Remember who it was and what their company was when I revealed it (I believe it was Hank Eisenstein who suggested I spill regarding this)?
Anyways, you need to get in touch with my absolutely wonderful (Sarcasam! Sarcasam!) former boss, Ray Neilson, who owns and runs GPS video:
Phone:
416-239-9094
Emails:
rayneilson@hotmail.com
raytv@interlog.com
I recommend telephoning because a live phonecall can't simply be ignored like an email. Good luck!
-Robert King
Over the weekend, I went to a friend's house af few days in a row. I had to take the 6. In three days, I didn't see one redbird. Also, the 2 line seems to be getting more and more R-142s. It's just a matter of time, I guess. :(
There are still at least 4 trains of Redbirds running on the 6 at the moment. You just happened to miss them.
It seems that I have a better chance to see an #4 Redbird than an #6 Redbird.
How time flies!
Chaohwa
4-birds are just uncommon, 6-birds are rare. Pigs told me that he caught a 6-bird today and I saw one back in June.
It used to be the other way around though.
I don't think that Redbirds on the 4 are that uncommon, I've seen them often enough.
I happened to get one today. I just came in and sat down at Union Square, not realizing the significance of the moment until a few seconds later. Once I did, I decide to advance to the railfan window since I knew the oppurtunity would soon be lost and gone, perhaps forever.
The railfan window is great, I used it, in a completely empty car on a Q from 57th to Kings Highway. It took me all these years to finally appreciate that which is fundamental to many other railfans.
Why can't the R-142s and other new cars have left said windows that allow riders to look through the railfan window? All MBTA cars had this when new (in the older red line and orange line cars ATO equipment has been put in blocking the view.).
besides iin about five year the might begin to have redbird fantrips.
God damn, it's not THAT major, cup your hands around your eyes and you got a ghetto railfan window. Just chill!!!
Then again, someone might have a newspaper (or coat, or similar apparatuses) to block the view.
I tell you, Pigs - nothing beats a view from the front on the Brighton Express. It is a singularly beautiful experience. And if you got a Slant, which it sounds like you did, that makes it that much better. Glad you enjoyed your trip on the Slant Q.
wayne
It makes me real glad that I have all this cab video I've taken over the years. Same is true for what I took on the Bronx IRT this summer when all the equipment (Redbirds, R-62s and R-142(A)s were out and about.
The R-40 slants are nothing to sneeze at in the 60th St tunnel, either.
--Mark
We've got to take in the slants on the Brighton next month, preferably starting in Manhattan.
Nothing less than the front of a Slant for you, Steve, the very place of honor. We start at 57th and 7th and proceed directly to Brighton Beach in one shot. Let's hope it is a nice warm fall day.
wayne
I'll second that. Maybe we'll be able to find the spot where the Nassau Loop tracks turned off. I can't remember if that was walled off or not.
You'll have to ride in the rear to see that as they join at a backwards angle. The little stretch of tunnel is illuminated; I DID NOT see if there were any tracks in it.
wayne
It's more or less where the tracks make an S to the right. All you'll see Manhattan-bound is a wall before it turns to the right.
It's never too late to discover it!
--Mark
September 5 marked 34 years since I rode at the railfan window for the very first time, on a prewar D train from Rockefeller Center to 59th St. Then when we got to 59th St., a southbound A train was sitting there, taking on passengers. We needed to take it, but I didn't notice the roofline signs on the R-10s and let it go, being unsure if it was an A or a D. As the last car went by, I saw the end sign and said out loud, "What luck - THAT was an A train!" Over the next month, the pieces of the subway puzzle gradually fell into place: the A had those racy teal and white cars and ran express. Nothing else would do on 8th Ave.
In my commuting days I would always opt for the "F" train over the lazy (and often R-6-x/R-7 infested) "E" train. Not that I had anything against the R-6-x and R-7; it was just that I strongly disliked them when they ran local. They FLEW when they ran on the "F", especially if there was an GE-equipped R-6-2 in the lead. The Slants held full sway on both "E" and "F" back then, and in the summertime I would eagerly seek out the brightly-lit, air-cooled R40A over the dingy, noisy, soot-encrusted regular (non-A/C) Slant R40. (The R40M, which were also air-conditioned, lived over on the "E", occasionally appearing in the "EE" and "GG" and almost never were seen on the "F").
Then there were the R44, before they were neutered. Those cars really moved in the express stretch from 71st Avenue to the Rego Park GTs and later on in the N Blvd Bypass. 65 Street station was usually a blur if you got an R44. The "F" is the line on which I cut my railfan teeth; it gave me a real appreciation for the word "express".
wayne
Just as I cut my railfan teeth on the A and its immortal Thunderbirds.
Pig? Is this really you? Enjoying a ride on a Redbird? At a railfan window?
When do I pass out ?? the ""pig"" going to the railfan window !!! OHHH......... NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
We cant beleive it !!! he has RESIGNED from the Transverse-cab-car-company !! All Hell has broken loose !!
PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT ( at a railfan window ) ????????? .................LOL .... BIG TIME.......... LOL !!!!!!!!
quick !!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call the police !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
somebody get some watah, this mans on fiya!!!
lol !!
hehehe..............@#@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@lolhee
lol??????????????????????????????????????????
eat me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@lol hehehe
All predicted in the Qoran ... 'nuff said.
AMEN
Peace,
ANDEE
dont forget the tora !! ........
Tora? War in Japanese or Torah?
train dude he made his comment an issue on the islam-quran so i threw the tora back at him his religion book ..
like the bible etc.. @ or even better .......the railfan window !!! ........lol !!!
You scare me.
Salaam, he has discovered what we have known all along - that the view from the frontwindow of the redoubtable R40 has no equal.
May he have many more enjoyable rides up and down the Brighton Line.
wayne
yep !!!!!!!...........lol !!
The v train provided a rare view of the 6th ave to 53rd connection, and the queens local track
My ass is still sore from me kicking myself repeatedly for having missed this visual treat. Imagine that, Slants, that close. BOOT! BOOT! BOOT! Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Please, Sir may I have another?
wayne :o>
you mean your wore out tired & sore feet !!! ........lol !!!
And I'm kicking myself for missing that memorable event 28 years ago tomorrow.:-)
Speaking of railfan windows, I quickly pointed out the slant R-40-sized cab door windows on our LRVs to Anon_e_mouse yesterday. He enjoyed the view immensely.
I happened to get one today. I just came in and sat down at Union Square, not realizing the significance of the moment until a few
seconds later. Once I did, I decide to advance to the railfan window since I knew the oppurtunity would soon be lost and gone,
perhaps forever.
The railfan window is great, I used it, in a completely empty car on a Q from 57th to Kings Highway. It took me all these years to
finally appreciate that which is fundamental to many other railfans.
Salaam I thought you wern't comeing to New York till Next mounth.
That message was copied, with not a single modification, from what I posted.
And you thought he was capable of posting that coherently?
oh come on !! enjoy the railfan window !!! ......lol !!
last two weeks of october first week of 11 03 01 my 5th birthday !!! oh yea i will be there !!!
"last two weeks of october first week of 11 03 01 my 5th birthday !!! oh yea i will be there !!! "
your 5th birthday?
I thought yo were older than that.
wrong dynasoaur breath !! { 50 } .....lol !!!
Well, if I see someone with a camcorder at the railfan window during my visit nect month, I'll know who it is.:-)
Surprise ... it could be ME!
--Mark
oh now we got competition for Mr. southern california transit system (salaamallah). so who makes the best subway videos cause I might be buying one/some soon.
David
Well, I've SEEN Mark's and can personally vouch for them... but I've heard a lot of good things about Salaamallah's as well... I suspect that they're both very good, it depends on which lines you want.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for the kind words.
--Mark
motorman!! is it safe this late october / first week of november to shoot video on a subway train ? ( railfan window view )
i wanted to come there to celebrate my 50th doing just that :( sigh ) very sad .................
oh now we got competition for Mr. southern california transit system ....
I think it's the other way around. I've been around almost since this web site's inception, and certainly since SubTalk opened, and my taking of videos hasn't been a secret to most people here.
Look here at my list.
Been at it since 1995, after I realized how much more fun it was than just using a still camera.
--Mark
Or Me Three.
That would be cool.
Correction:..Well, if I see someone with a camcorder at the railfan window during my visit next month, I'll know who it is.:-)
october november ....??
October.
Do you want me to call my lawyer and get you for blatant plagiarism?
no ......just keep on a lookin' out the railfan window & enjoy!!!.........lol!!
Don't worry so much. The 7 line is still 100% redbird.
The Redbird experience on the No. 7 line is one not to be missed. The ride at the "railfan window" of an inbound express with the Manhattan skyline looming ever larger is great, as is the enjoyment of standing on the platform at 111th Street around 9 a.m. as the 'birds move in and out of the layup tracks en route to Corona Yard while expresses sail by on the upper level track. These ARE the good old days ...
Try the experience at night, especially from 46th Street "south" .... on a clear night, the NY skyline is beautiful.
--Mark
Any clear day or night is good at 46th Street. That's the station closest to where I live!
Check out this picture:
For those who can't do <tt>iframe</tt>, click <a href="http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/getimg.html?16/C-10.jpg">here</a>. The real image is located at http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/16/C-10.jpg, but click on the link before going there directly.
This was taken on my way to an 8:00 class at Queens College. The time is a little after 7:00 on a cold December morning, and a 7 train is entering 46th Street. Light from the sun is being reflected off the buildings in the background.
Hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds. After next month I may never get to say that again.
First my goal: Getting from Sheepshed Bay, Brooklyn to Woodhaven Blvd Queens and back
Well, early this morning 7-9 in AM rush, I catch the diamond Q from Sheepshed. I saw at DeKalb an R46 R which left the same time as us, the first four cars were 56xx and the last four were 60xx. We go over the bridge, no sign of anything when we rejoin at Prince. We gain speed and begin to slow BEFORE 8th St. And from 14 to 34 we slowed and stopped before 28th. Clearly a W was in front crossing over. We waited at least 90 seconds to 2 minutes. I didn't think it would take that long. At 57th we make the connection to it. I was thinking of getting of at 34th and taking the F to Roosevelt for a G/R, but decided that the worst that could happen was I would get the R that I saw at DeKalb. I take the W across the platform at 57/7. Question: Do all Qs enter 57/7 on the north side and leave on the south side by relay on the switch above the station or was I lucky it pulled in the right side? Anyway, take the W to Lexington, think about going to Queensboro for a 7 which is running double service for me since both exp and lcl run local. But I get off and wait, another W comes right in 2 minutes later!!! Announcements have something to do with a Queens-bound N or R problem but too blurred. Finally they say N at 57 and my R at 49. So I wait for the R. While waiting, two Rs in a row pass me going the other way, one to Whitehall one to 95. Is this normal??? I get my R and stay on to Whitehall.
Coming back, I get an R to Roosevelt and connect for an F. I take the F figuring I'll get off at 34 for a Q unless there's an R at Queens Plz when we get in. There's a G there. I wanted a guaranteed front window of diamond Q coming home so I got off and waited for the same R I got off and went to 57. I was thinking about having to cross over just in case the Qs don't use the switch north of 57/7, but there's only one Q, a diamond Q on the southbound side. I am the 2nd person in the car and get a front window all the way over the bridge and home. One question: When coming off the bridge and heading for DeKalb we did not go down and come back up again just before the station. We stayed on the track that a Brooklyn bound train stopping at Dekalb from the North side of the bridge would merge into. Is this always the case??? And if so why is the track that goes down and under and back up again there???
Question 1: You were lucky! Q trains leave from both tracks, so must arrive on both also. I don't know if there is a preference for express on one side and local on the other.
Question 2: Yes it's normal for R trains to go to both 95 St and Whitehall. The Whitehall train gets laid up at City Hall yard to await the afternoon rush. Not normal for two Rs to be back to back; ther should have been at least an N or W between them.
Question 3 & 4: Not always, but most of the time, yes. The track that goes down and up, (H3) is usually used to get a train onto the Bypass track. Once on the Bypass, it is committed to the 4th Ave Express
The latest news on the festival can be found in the press releases section of the NJT website.
A quick note regarding the Lackawanna and Wild West Trains: tickets are limited for each, especially for the Lackawanna. The trips are 10:45 am, 12:45 pm and 2:45 pm for the Lackawanna; the first Wild West Train is at 11 am, with three more to follow about every 90 minutes or so.
Hope to see many of you Saturday, rain or shine! (I'm hearing "shine" is more likely, even if it's dull.)
Michael
Mike,
I'm leaning more and more towards the shine :-) See you there after the 207 St. Tour.
...and that's Transit and Weather Together
What was the date of the last run of the R10. What line was that on.
the last run of all painted goh b division cars was on the c
What was the date?
some time in 1989 or 1990 (I dont know)
The R27 and R30 were painted B-division cars and they lsted until 1993.
:-) Andrew
The September 11, 1989 car assignment was the first not to list R-10s, though they may have operated for a few days after that date. At the end, the R-10s ran only in C service. The New York Division of the ERA ran a fantrip with R-10s at the end of October 1989, the last time that R-10s carried passengers.
David
That's right...the last time that any R-10's carried any passengers was on the E.R.A. "farewell" fantrip on Sunday, October 29, 1989.
According to one prior estimate, there were about 250 people riding the special eight-car train (#3018-3203-3182-2974-3143-3045-3145-3216), which travelled on many IND and BMT routes, especially going to and from the Coney Island area twice during the first half of the trip.
The almost ten-hour journey included operating on such lines as the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, the Archer Avenue routes (both levels) and a unscheduled surprise visit to the 63rd Street Line on its first day of revenue service. By the way, prior to the fantrip, these same exact eight R-10 cars were used at the lower level platform of the IND "F" line's Bergen Street station during the production of the thriller motion picture "Jacob's Ladder" starring Tim Robbins, and that train consist appeared in the film released in 1990.
-William A. Padron
I still wonder why that fantrip didn't include an express dash along CPW with the train signed up as an A. It certainly would have been a fitting way to bow out.
I have told this before on an older post, but the 1989 R-10 farewell fantrip did not run on the IND "A" line with passengers, but the train was signed up "A" and "207 Street Manhattan" on car #3216 for photo stops at Crescent Street and Jamaica Center [lower level] on the BMT "J" line. After the train discharged passengers at the end of the trip, the train on car #3216 again was resigned up again to "A" and "207 Street Manhattan" after it left Chambers Street-WTC headed for 207th Street Yard to storage and eventual retirement.
Generally speaking, when the ERA chartered the Green R-10's and Red R-30's for "B" division fantrips between 1986 and 1993, the trip journeys were usually planned and scheduled to cover at least the IND Smith Street-Culver and any BMT Coney Island-based routes at some point. During that period, it was never probably intended to cover the IND lines in Manhattan north of 59th Street-Columbus Circle.
-William A. Padron
IMHO they could have and should have made an exception with the R-10s.
According to my best info, the last Green R-10s ran in passenger service on September 8, 1989.
Cars were 2961, 3008, 3157, 3159, 3168, 3169, 3181 and 3209.
On the C train, at that time from Bedford Park Blvd. to Rockaway Park.
The last of the "Grungified" (un-GOH'd) R-10s were removed from service effective November 10, 1988 as part of the Car Appearance Program initiative.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab@aol.com)
In actuality, none of the R-10s ever received a true GOH such as what was done to the Redbirds and R-32s thru R-46s. 110 R-10s were cleaned, fixed up, and painted forest green; however, they pretty much kept the same components. It was a stopgap measure to ensure there were enough cars to maintain service until all of the R-68s were delivered.
I entered 42nd on the Broadway line at 4:55 pm. A W pulled into the station. Immediately, we are informed that "due to a smoke condition ahead of this train, we will be rerouted to 21st Queensbridge". To me, this meant that no trains would be crossing the East River.
I ran for a 7 train to Queens. An express entered Times Square. You would be amazed at how many Queens bound passengers board at Grand Central or 5th, and go back to Times Square just to have a seat. Without waiting one minute, the conductor closed the doors, and we were off to Queens.
Approaching Queensborough Plaza, I noticed from a distance, a Manhattan bound train waiting to enter Queensborough. After leaving Queensborough, we passed that waiting s/b train(a slant 40). I have a feeling he was in for a long wait.
My 7 express caught up to a local at 61st. I got on the local. Then something strange happened. Just as we entered the next local stop, I noticed a SOUTHBOUND 7 ON THE EXPRESS TRACK??????
We got to 74th, and another 7 was passing Southbound on the express track. Then I noticed a 7 sitting in the 74th station on the local track with no passengers. I looked down the tracks and noticed that the Northbound 7 I was on was rerouted local.
The rest of the trip was fine.
I was at Lexington Av and I saw the R46 (R) train sitting there on the Queens-bound track. Apparently, there was a track fire and s smoke condition. The train was not taken out of service, but the power was cut off in the tunnel in front of the train for five to ten minutes. The power on the train was minimal; that is, some of the interior lights were on, and the LED side sign was completely off.
Cleanairbus
hybridbus@aol.com
This is a true story friends and neighbors. Many moons ago, I was at 168/Bway waiting for the downtown 1/9 twins. The station was filling with smoke from an apparent track fire at the entrance of the tunnel on the uptown side. I watched in amazement as two uptown locals came and went, running past the fire. Looked like the arcing from the third rail set some garbage on the track ablaze. The running joke was that a homeless man had set a rat on fire to keep warm. When my train came, there was no announcement or anything. Doors opened, people got off, I got on, bing bong, and away we went.
What has to happen in order for smoke to be
classified as TRACK FIRE??
Mercy be the twins running over that glitz.
Train Dude might chime in here, but we use smoke condition or more properly the 12 code(12-2?) to avoid alarming customers.
Thanks subway-buff... but what conditions
must exist (or be present) for such an incident
to be given "track fire" status...
Would the flame have to be a certain height?
Would the object have to be x number of inches
close to the rail before being given serious attention?
Had me wondering... as Selkirk stated "the motorola
bricks wouldnt raise command"
Schmaybe I was unclear first time up..
Just a fast clarification - the Motorola "bricks" I refer to was the ones that you plugged into a cradle in the cab. First generation of TA radios and the original leaky cable ... there were a LOT of dead spots in the system back then and you never expected the radio to actually work. If it did, it was bonus but you often had to step down and use the phone of there was a problem. Back then you'd roll it through and call it in at the next station.
Most track fires will go out by themselves, often the rush of a train past a track fire will extinguish it. Flames will conduct current, so if the fire's big enough to partially ground out the third rail, command will notice when they have to call for a restore.
thank you.
If it is bad (does not go out by itself) they will suspend service. The tower will not always m,ake announcements but if they do they will say somwething like" due to a smoek condition at blank station, all (name/number) trains will run via the **line. If they decide to call the NYFD, they will use what is called a taxi train. Control will call a train on the radio and tell the crew to "discharge your train. You will be a taxi train." Control will then tell train crews" Attention conductors: pleaseinform your passengers that due to a smoke condition at blank station , here are the temporary serevice changes."They will then give the service changes which may include running on a different route or short turnback or even suspension.[All booths have scanners as do some S/As(like myself) and Station Command will use a special intercom to alert booths in the area.)] Anyway- we would then issue any needed block tickets **if** our station has no service on **any line** in **any direction**
sometimes, if the condition is in our station we might be the first to see the problem or a customer tells us/ We would then use our EBCS to call for assistance. If we call, supervision, NYPD and NYFD will respond and we will need badge number and CN for NYPD and battalio number for NYFD.
If we are outside of the booth- ie gate or MVM duty, we can go to the booth to ask for the fire extinguisher for a solar can (Garbage can) fire and put it out ourselves while the booth calls for help.
As the ranking TA employee we are in charge until a higher ranking person responds such as a supervisor (S/S or TSS), or superintendent. IF it becomes necessary to close a station the decision is made by supervision or police which will assist in evcauation.A six page memo has been issued detailing procedures. The booth will remain open unless instructed by supervison who will then instruct us where we should stand (ie- a stairway at street level near the booth.)
All escalators will be stopped or reversed by supervison if needed and all elevators would be put into service-opearetd by supervision if needed. On "Complex Stations" (ie- Times Square) supervision would determine if the entire complex needs to be closed or just one area. Police response would eb absed on time of day and station size/complexity.
Hope this helps.
Many "track fires" are very short-lived. Once the paper cup has finished burning, it's done. I saw many track fires in my days, never saw anything worth calling in. Then again, back in those days, the Motorola bricks rarely raised command anyway.
Like, I actually saw the fire from where I was standing.
Like, you didn't comprehend the querie.
Back in 1978 or 1979, I got off at 28th St. from a southbound 1 train and saw smoke pouring out of a trash can at the southern end of the station. I mean, it was THICK. The train went merrily on its way and everyone acted as if there was nothing out of the ordinary.
Double braking if you manage to hit a SMOKE signal. :)
Same thing back in '96 at Chambers Street BMT, the n/b platform. One of those big square trash receptacles was smoking to beat the band; trains were going in and out of the station while people were running up the stairs choking as they went; I got out of the station and went over to the Lex Ave line.
wayne
It's not uncommon to see garbage can fires in Flushing and most people act as if nothing is wrong.
>>It's not uncommon to see garbage can fires in Flushing and most people act as if nothing is wrong.<<
You must be from the suburbs.... Or the, um, 'nice' parts of the city.
In my neighborhood, we don't set cans on fire, we set trash on fire, and toss it around parks where kids play.
You would be amazed at how many Queens bound passengers board at Grand Central or 5th, and go back to Times Square just to have a seat.
I was one of those passengers you saw yesterday.
The platform, as well as the passageway from the Lex lines at Grand Central, was completely jammed. It was obvious that there was a problem somewhere in the system with people choosing different routes home. Now I know it was a problem on the Broadway BMT.
I don't think the pattern of back-tracking you witnessed from us is a usual occurrance. In my case, I would have had to wait a couple of trains before being able to board. Most likely, I would have ridden the train on which I back-tracked to Times Square anyway. Knowing that it was rush-hour, I decided it would be easier and more comfortable to get on the train and ride the additional three stops than wait among the throngs at 42nd Street, and, yes, I got a seat. I knew the turnaround time at TSQ would be miniscule. There was no loss of travel time in my case.
My trip began with an attempt to ride the E/F through the 53rd St. tube, but the platform at Lex was dangerously crowded. I knew there must be some kind of problem somewhere, so I turned around immediately, went back up the escalator, and transferred to the downtown 6 to G.C. to catch the 7. I often do this if the plat at 53rd/Lex is too crowded.
It's great to have so many options to get to Queens.
i just got back the roll of film that i was shooting early last week... i was riding the new newark cars doing my best to concentrate and create an electromagnetic wave pulse that would disable the system... instead i got a bad headache, however the car in front of mine broke down for about 25 minutes... the train operator tried to figure how we could go around the disabled train... eventually we got to the last stop, where they had the troubled car on the outside track... i went to call doug in brooklyn to tell him the good news about how the newark subway was running... i reached him, but he said he didn't know anyone named heypaul...
a couple of minutes later, i returned to the platform and saw that they coupled this trackmobile truck to car 1001 ( i think ) and pulled it out to the scrapyards in jersey city..
trackmobile comes to the rescue
Aw ... that little loco is CUTE ... looks like just the thing to haul the trash up and down the hill here where I live. All I need is track.
This was a rarity. That LRV could have gone out under its own power, but we had begun de-energizing the catenary through that area so the contractor could bring in a crane to remove the Franklin Avenue loop. Thus, the (diesel) trackmobile.
And leave it to the amateurs to get the fuzzy shot... ;-)
Michael
that's an interesting explanation mike...
the word on the street is that njt has ordered enough trackmobiles so that each of the lrv's can have one attached up front as back-up motive power...
it should be noted that they sure were in a hurry to get the loop out of there, so that there would be no turning back...
LOL ... but reading between the lines something to ponder. some of here have missed you more then other.
btw, you got the wrong dougie because he had gone north. got home at midnight, but of the three of us only this one had to got to work today.
p.s. i two enjoyed the photo ... that mike just doesn't understand how inportant it was to us ... thaks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
Mike,
While everyone is busy busting your chops, I wish that "Try-Transit"
day will be a big sucess, and you can dwell on your accomplishments.
I'll be taking the ride on the HBLR, and maybe jaunt down to Newark
to try out the Newark cars, also.
Chuck Greene
That's Bloomfield in that direction. IIRC, the number of the car that died ended in 13.
Say, Paul, does this ring a bell?
Newark LRVs in and out of service
Newark PCCs
It's a damn good thing most of us aren't that far into HTML. It made me dizzy just looking at it.
TOTALLY, TOTALLY WRONG!
Now, this is more like it:
Newark LRVs in and out of service
Newark PCCs
1. What are those two bulidings in the backround?
2. why is there one big grade crossing light?
Buildings getting built, and the crossings are for people dumb enough not to look both ways.
Where is there ONE big crossing light? I see two sets of two.
It's under the look both ways sign.
I don't see a signal of any kind *under* the look both ways sign.
Correct me it is *above* the sign.
Above the sign is 2 lights, it's just that one is lit.
Peace,
ANDEE
. why is there one big grade crossing light?
1) Where was this photo shot?
2) What do you mean by "one big grade crossing light"? I see four of them, and more on the other side. Please be clear in your statement.
: )
Railfan Pete.
"one big grade crossing light"
I think that he is referring to the left light on the rear stanchion.
The visor or shade seems to be missing which does seem to make the lens itself larger!
Sometimes it is common to see a train with a mixed consist of all
three types of Silverliners (IIs, IIIs and IVs) on SEPTA's Regional
Rail lines. Can anyone tell me why the push-pull cars were not made
to be compatible with the Silverliners? Where instead of the cars
being powered by a locomotive (AEM-7, etc.), the Silverliners could
serve as the "locomotive", since they are self powered. Also, how
come the push-pull trains only run on certain lines? I still have
yet to see push-pull trains on the R2 (Wilmington/Marcus Hook),
which is my line. Also, does anyone know where I can view photos of
the original interiors of the Budd Silverliner IIs? I was told once
that they were much different than they are now. At least they had
different seats.
In normal commuter rail use in North America, MU trains, such as SEPTA's the Silverliner II/III/IV cars, are never mixed with locomotives or loco-hauled coaches except in an extreme emergency. MU cars have different trainline, braking, and signal characteristics than push-pull coaches. The SEPTA Bombardier push-pulls can be hauled by either a diesel or electric loco, but are never mixed as trailers with MU cars. While I realize that SEPTA never runs diesel locos in revenue service, NJ Transit has a common fleet of similar Bombardier push-pull coaches that can operate coupled to either diesel or electric locos.
SEPTA tried running diesel locos, but their Republic Locomotive engines were too underpowered to meet timetable requirements. They are now used to provide HEP to Bombardier coaches on RDG FP7-powered charter trips, such as the one Sept 8 from 30th Street (9 AM) and Paoli (9:30) to Strasburg and return.
At one time they had some of NJT's U34CHs. One was even repainted.
Thanks for the memory jog. I photographed a U34CH at Fern Rock station prior to being informed by SEPTA security that photography on SEPTA property was verboten. I subsequently rode one of the trains that diverged from the RDG track, went past the TastyKake plant, over the Schuylkill River and into 30th Street Station.
I believe the U34's were just borrowed in a swap arrangement that sent a handful of SEPTA's AEM7's to NJT for the duration. The AEM's would have seen limited service since Railworks had many MU's sidelined and there were sufficient electric cars to make the remaining runs on the ex-Pennsy side. If I recall correctly, the U34's were painted in the same dark blue scheme as the SEPTA RL1's, although at least one of the U-boats ran in the NJT scheme for a couple of weeks before it was redecorated.
Also, I believe there was one R2 and one R5 run that was made, inbound in the AM and outbound in the PM, and they ran out of the lower level of 30th St.
Didn't (and possibly still) South Shore have some trailer cars it used in MU train consists? Or were/are these just blind motors?
try the R7 Trenton-Fox Chase line. They